Order of Man


NICK O'KELLY ｜ Confronting the Stigma of Men's Mental Health


Episode Stats


Harmful content

Misogyny

11

sentences flagged

Hate speech

12

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Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Nick O'Kelly is a former Green Beret and combat veteran who served with the U.S. Army Special Forces. He is an expert in unconventional warfare and leadership under pressure. In this episode, Nick talks about the challenges he faced in service and how he overcame them.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Men, we're all well aware of the stigma associated with men's mental health.
00:00:04.940 Men are often told overtly or covertly to just be quiet, do your job, and get your work done.
00:00:13.020 And while there is certainly some validity to us getting the job done when people are relying on us,
00:00:19.680 it's also valid to consider the mental and emotional battles we often fight as men.
00:00:24.960 And today I'm joined by retired Green Beret, Nick O'Kelly, to talk about his time in service
00:00:30.080 and the mental and emotional anguish he faced and what he's done to overcome the challenges of anxiety, depression, and even suicidal ideation.
00:00:39.680 We talk about how a man begins to confront these issues, finding the balance between bearing down and getting the help we need,
00:00:46.640 how to find teams and avenues of support without feeling weak, and how to confront the stigma,
00:00:52.940 even though we all deal with it, of men's mental health.
00:00:57.020 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest.
00:01:00.140 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
00:01:03.060 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.
00:01:07.500 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.
00:01:12.580 This is your life. This is who you are.
00:01:14.900 This is who you will become at the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
00:01:22.940 Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Men podcast. I'm talking about men's mental health today.
00:01:29.720 This is a conversation that needs to be had continually.
00:01:33.040 It's one that a lot of men are dealing with. It's one that I've dealt with personally.
00:01:36.740 I address that in the podcast, and it's one that I think will help serve you regardless of where you're at with your own personal mental health.
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00:03:10.500 All right, guys, let me introduce you to my guest.
00:03:13.080 His name is Nick O'Kelly.
00:03:14.100 He's a former Green Beret.
00:03:15.280 He's a combat vet.
00:03:16.760 He is an expert in unconventional warfare and leadership under pressure.
00:03:22.620 Lots of experience, years of experience serving in the U.S. Army Special Forces.
00:03:29.360 He's operated in some of the most challenging environments around the world.
00:03:33.140 His mission now, though, is to equip men with the mindset, discipline, and resilience
00:03:37.420 forged through his very, very elite and specific military service.
00:03:44.340 In this episode, Nick and I talk about hard-earned lessons on mental toughness,
00:03:48.100 leading through chaos, building men of character in a world that desperately,
00:03:52.760 desperately needs men of character.
00:03:55.420 So if you're ready for a raw, no excuses conversation about strength, service,
00:04:00.300 depression, anxiety, even suicide, and living with purpose, this one is for you.
00:04:08.600 You know, there seems to be a real stigma around men's mental health,
00:04:14.200 and I'm not quite sure why that is.
00:04:16.480 There's a lot of words that we use.
00:04:18.480 There's a lot of pleasantries and niceties that we use that I think soften the way that
00:04:24.820 we might feel as men.
00:04:25.960 But I've seen a lot of guys really struggle with trying to shore up their struggles mentally
00:04:33.280 and emotionally.
00:04:34.700 Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to pride as well, you know, and kind of that underlying
00:04:41.460 notion that as men, we got to be strong, right?
00:04:46.200 And put on that armor all the time and always like be the protector and be the one that's
00:04:50.800 the symbol of strength.
00:04:52.040 So I think there's a lot of like deep rooted things that go along with the stigma.
00:04:56.860 It's not as simple as just, you know, there's a stigma out there and there is, but it's more
00:05:01.880 like individual based as well and how people react to it.
00:05:05.800 But, you know, but the only question I have on that and the thing that I get hung up on
00:05:12.140 is, you know, you talk about the pride that gets in the way and I agree with that.
00:05:15.760 I would agree with that.
00:05:17.080 But also there's a reason that we as men generally relative to our female counterparts have that,
00:05:24.700 I think.
00:05:25.000 Right.
00:05:25.180 Because as a Green Beret, a helicopter pilot, you know, there's a time to get shit done 0.88
00:05:31.500 and there's a time to maybe sit in the way that you feel.
00:05:36.240 My concern is, especially in the relative ease of modernity, that too many men are advocating
00:05:42.100 for embracing all of these vulnerabilities and softness and niceties and pleasantries and feel good.
00:05:50.700 And at some point we as men have to get shit done.
00:05:54.080 Yeah.
00:05:55.040 And it's a fine line, right?
00:05:56.280 Because you're right.
00:05:58.140 Like you have a mission, you have a job, right?
00:05:59.940 Especially in the military.
00:06:00.740 Like you can't have a mission coming up and say, no, I don't feel good or I don't feel like
00:06:06.360 going, right?
00:06:07.020 Like that's non-negotiable.
00:06:08.320 You signed up to do it and you have to do it.
00:06:10.760 You have to buck up and do it.
00:06:12.520 I think when it becomes a problem, right?
00:06:16.040 And the word that you don't like is vulnerability, but like, I think there's a time and place for
00:06:22.040 it.
00:06:22.240 But I just don't think that would be the time and place, right?
00:06:25.660 Like when you need to get shit done, that's when it's, it's time to buckle down.
00:06:29.180 It's time to be a man.
00:06:30.040 It's time to stand up and say, all right, like, yeah, sure.
00:06:32.820 I have these problems, but I can overcome them and I can push through.
00:06:36.740 Um, but the problem that I see is it becomes detrimental when it's especially related to
00:06:45.320 mental health, right?
00:06:45.960 Because I was, I was hard charging.
00:06:48.580 I was going a million miles an hour and I didn't give myself permission to kind of look at what
00:06:55.360 was happening with me, I guess.
00:06:56.880 And more of it to that word vulnerability, it was more, I was scared to even like talk
00:07:03.780 about it, you know?
00:07:05.060 So that's kind of what I mean when I say vulnerability is like just giving yourself permission to even
00:07:10.440 talk about what's happening with you.
00:07:12.320 Does that make sense?
00:07:13.320 Yeah, I debate with people online about this just about every day.
00:07:20.960 I don't like the word.
00:07:22.880 And I get it.
00:07:23.440 I hate the word.
00:07:24.100 I get it.
00:07:24.880 The word means something.
00:07:26.280 The word means weakness.
00:07:27.500 It literally means weakness.
00:07:28.700 It means exposing yourself or your neck to an enemy.
00:07:33.640 That's what it means.
00:07:35.660 But that said, I'm also capable of nuance.
00:07:40.200 I'm also capable of understanding.
00:07:41.960 The Brené Browns of the world have taken the word, bastardized it, and made it mean something
00:07:47.700 that it didn't originally mean.
00:07:50.400 And I use the words humility, honesty.
00:07:55.580 That's what I would use.
00:07:56.860 I think honesty and transparency.
00:07:57.700 But I think it means, it's a semantical debate, I think is what it is.
00:08:01.600 Absolutely.
00:08:02.440 Because, yeah, you're right.
00:08:04.040 Vulnerability in the true sense of the word means you're essentially giving yourself up, right?
00:08:08.380 You're vulnerable to something taking over you, right?
00:08:12.700 Something having dominance over you, I guess, in a way.
00:08:15.560 So I understand that.
00:08:17.280 I do.
00:08:18.760 And I think honesty might be a better word.
00:08:21.880 Honesty and transparency is probably a better word, probably better words to rephrase that than vulnerability.
00:08:28.540 So what kind of helicopter were you guys flying?
00:08:33.840 Are you personally flying?
00:08:35.480 Because you're a Green Beret, airborne. 1.00
00:08:38.380 I mean, you've done it all.
00:08:39.400 Ranger, Ranger qualified.
00:08:41.120 Is that how it works?
00:08:41.820 Ranger qualified?
00:08:42.400 Not Ranger qualified, no.
00:08:43.380 I did not.
00:08:43.880 Not Ranger qualified.
00:08:44.740 Okay, Green Beret.
00:08:45.660 Okay, got it.
00:08:46.160 Yep, yep.
00:08:46.800 So I went to Special Forces, did all that.
00:08:49.280 And then at about the three-year mark on a team, I kind of looked at the senior individuals in my unit, man, and it was more of a family decision for me.
00:09:00.140 My son was just born, and I looked at it, and I saw the guys who had been in for 20 years, and they just did not have a family life.
00:09:07.800 They 100% prioritized the job over family, which to some extent you have to.
00:09:12.720 To some extent, you're gone all the time, and the job does take precedence in some situations.
00:09:17.700 But I just looked at it, and I said, man, I don't want to end up like that.
00:09:21.300 I don't want to be that dad that, like, barely knows his kids or his kids, you know, neglect him because he gave his whole life to Special Forces.
00:09:30.340 So that's when I dropped my flight packet and decided to go aviation.
00:09:34.940 I ended up flying Blackhawks UH-60s first, and then did an Afghan rotation, and then came back and went and assessed for the 160th Special Operations Aviation.
00:09:47.700 So then I flew MH-60s for them.
00:09:53.040 All right, I'm going to ask you.
00:09:54.180 I want to get really serious on this conversation.
00:10:00.560 Barring, so, okay, so when you were thinking about your Ranger tab, you were married, you had kids, or no?
00:10:09.140 I was.
00:10:09.940 So, well, Greenberg, so when I was going through the Q course, the Special Forces Q course, you mean?
00:10:13.760 Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:10:16.620 So, no, I was not married yet.
00:10:20.540 I actually got married the day after I graduated the Special Forces Q course.
00:10:24.240 So during the Q course, I was single, but for the three years on an ODA, on a team, then I was married, and then my son was born about two years after joining, after going to my Special Forces team.
00:10:37.180 And so, I'm very curious about the conversation you had with your wife, because I don't want to put words in your mouth.
00:10:46.200 Did you have ambitions of taking your career further, and you decided not to because of those conversations?
00:10:53.180 Like, I think you probably, you sound like a person, a man who has some values and principles, knows what he wants, but there's also some conflict for every man.
00:11:08.720 Like, what was that struggle like, and what were the conversations you had with your wife?
00:11:13.420 Did you make that decision, or did she?
00:11:15.020 I did, but some of it was because of how she, I guess, reacted to the constant deployments constantly being gone.
00:11:29.000 It was very stressful for her.
00:11:31.260 Like, it was, there are some women out there that, you know, can be super independent and just take it and run with it. 1.00
00:11:37.580 And she, she relies on me a lot, which, I mean, I love, but that was part of the decision for sure, was I looked at it and I was like, man, this is stressing her out to the core.
00:11:48.520 Like, and I don't know if I want to continue, continuously put her through something like that.
00:11:54.560 So, that was part of it.
00:11:57.240 Also, part of it was, before I even joined, before I even enlisted in the Army, I was looking to go aviation.
00:12:02.800 So, there's a high school to flight school program that you can basically jump off the street and go fly a helicopter.
00:12:08.620 But that didn't really work out.
00:12:10.780 It was just a long process to get in, so I ended up enlisting.
00:12:14.220 So, that was always in the back of my mind as well, was, hey, like, I want to fly helicopters.
00:12:18.100 I want to go be a pilot.
00:12:19.400 So, it was kind of, the timing worked out.
00:12:22.540 But, to be honest, we didn't have, she was very supportive.
00:12:26.100 So, it wasn't like a, it wasn't a give or take.
00:12:29.740 It wasn't like she was pushing back on the decision.
00:12:32.100 She was basically like, hey, if this is what you want to do, and these are the reasons, let's do it.
00:12:37.160 That makes sense.
00:12:38.040 So, there wasn't a lot of tension, I guess, in that decision.
00:12:43.860 Okay, so, I'm diving into questions I don't think you really anticipated on answering.
00:12:50.100 Love it.
00:12:51.580 But I hope it's okay.
00:12:53.240 But these are the real questions that men have.
00:12:55.500 Yeah.
00:12:55.680 So, she was pretty on board, it sounds like.
00:12:59.060 And it sounds like, based on what you're saying, she probably would have followed you, regardless of what decision that you made.
00:13:05.440 Yes.
00:13:07.560 Which is great.
00:13:09.020 We can dive into that a little bit, because that's important.
00:13:11.340 You want a woman who will follow you. 0.99
00:13:13.000 And you want to be worthy of being followed.
00:13:14.520 Do you feel like you might have regrets because you didn't pursue what you wanted to pursue?
00:13:24.940 The only regret that I have is looking at something, at the life change that I made with rose-colored glasses.
00:13:35.760 Right, because I went into aviation thinking that it would be essentially a lateral move from Special Forces.
00:13:42.360 Like, I still had the expectations that I would be treated like a big boy in the military, you know, like in Special Forces.
00:13:51.360 No doubt.
00:13:51.740 Yeah, once you get to that point, you're, you know, you're on an ODA, you're on a team, you're fairly competent and confident.
00:13:59.240 What is ODA?
00:14:00.460 Operational Detachment Alpha, sorry.
00:14:02.200 So, A-Team, you know, like the A-Team movie, that's kind of where it's from.
00:14:07.440 So, yeah, so I was expecting to go and essentially have a lateral cultural move, if that makes sense.
00:14:14.940 And then when I got to the aviation world, I was basically starting from scratch.
00:14:20.020 Even though I became a warrant officer, I felt like a private again, and I was treated like a private again.
00:14:25.240 So, that was my one regret was, like, not reaching out to people maybe that had done it before or something like that and having a little more expectation management.
00:14:35.540 Because if, I'm sure we'll get into it, but that's what, that's what ended up leading to some of the depression and mental health problems was, was that, just that, the expectation management and kind of starting over in a way, which I was not expecting.
00:14:50.880 But other than that, I've, I do not have any regrets.
00:14:53.780 Like, I loved where I eventually ended up as an aviator.
00:14:58.320 And, yeah, I was super fulfilling.
00:15:00.200 So, that would be my one regret, though.
00:15:03.160 Do you, well, I want to get into the expectation management.
00:15:06.680 I like that phraseology.
00:15:08.480 You talked about a cultural move.
00:15:10.440 You're talking about a culture, one culture of your life.
00:15:13.700 Right.
00:15:14.000 The military culture.
00:15:14.920 You're not talking about another culture, which is husband, father.
00:15:20.280 Correct.
00:15:20.740 Community leader, coach, whatever.
00:15:23.200 Correct.
00:15:24.280 Do you think she would feel the same way?
00:15:28.580 Do you think that she has regrets maybe wondering if you sacrificed for her?
00:15:37.220 I don't think so, because if she would have pushed me for that decision, then yes.
00:15:44.680 But I think the, I think the fact that I was stoked about it, and there was no doubt in my mind, that's, that's what I wanted to do.
00:15:52.620 I don't think it would, I don't think she would view it that way.
00:15:56.400 Because it was, it was 100%, like, I want to do this.
00:16:00.500 Here's the reasons why.
00:16:01.640 It wasn't like, it wasn't really, like, blaming her, you know.
00:16:04.380 That was just a factor in the, in the decision.
00:16:07.380 So, I don't, I don't think she would have regrets about it now.
00:16:11.560 And that's good.
00:16:12.520 Yeah.
00:16:12.680 And I'm not trying to throw you under the bus or her by any means.
00:16:15.560 No, this is awesome.
00:16:16.240 But these are real issues that men are dealing with.
00:16:18.980 Yeah.
00:16:19.100 Like, I don't know if they're dealing with necessarily the same situation you guys are, but I, I know that there's guys who are thinking to themselves, man, I really want to take this job in Nebraska.
00:16:30.060 Nebraska, we live in Texas and, and we can go take this job in Nebraska.
00:16:34.540 And, and their wife is like, well, my whole family's in Texas.
00:16:37.400 Yeah.
00:16:38.540 Does she sacrifice or does the guy sacrifice?
00:16:41.480 I don't know.
00:16:42.780 Yeah.
00:16:43.160 I'm really curious about this dynamic and the conversations that you guys have had.
00:16:47.120 And if you had any sort of contention or animosity between you two, as you were figuring out what is the best route for not only you, but her and the family that you guys have created.
00:16:56.380 And yeah, that's a, that's a really good question.
00:16:58.640 And another, another curve ball in that too, that I didn't mention was she was active duty army too.
00:17:03.840 So she was a, Oh, okay.
00:17:05.620 Yeah.
00:17:05.820 So she was a signal officer.
00:17:06.980 So part of that decision also was like, can you even follow me to Fort Rucker, Alabama, where we're going?
00:17:14.120 You know, like, can you even get orders to there or are we going to be separated for a time?
00:17:19.060 And that was obviously another like curve ball in it.
00:17:22.300 Luckily she was able to get to, she went to Fort Benning for a year.
00:17:25.600 So we were about two hours apart.
00:17:27.240 So it was one of those things where I had a cheap apartment and drove there on weekends, you know, for about, about, yeah, about nine months ish.
00:17:34.340 But then she eventually got orders to Fort Rucker and came with me.
00:17:39.280 So, so yeah, there was definitely sacrifice.
00:17:42.700 And fortunately she, like you said, like she is amazing at just saying, okay, like I'm going to follow you, right?
00:17:52.380 Like I'm going to follow you to what we're doing and we're going to figure it out and we're going to make the most of it.
00:17:56.660 So it did end up working out, but yeah, that's, I mean, that's a deep question.
00:18:00.900 And I don't, I think the biggest, my biggest like feedback on that, and it's what I alluded to earlier is having the proper like expectation management, right?
00:18:11.340 Because it's so easy to, when one person's on one side of the fence, the other person's on the other to try to just make everything seem like it's going to be perfect when it's not reality.
00:18:21.380 Right. And then you get there and it's like, man, you said all these things and now we're here and it's not like that, you know?
00:18:28.140 And then obviously that's going to create even more tension and yeah.
00:18:35.620 So your wife is a soldier. Is she still in the military?
00:18:38.940 No, she actually got out. She did four years. So she got out in 2016 and then I continued serving.
00:18:45.000 So she's probably got a lot of masculine energy, I imagine about her.
00:18:49.480 But surprisingly, she doesn't. She is a. 1.00
00:18:52.540 Does not. Okay. Explain that.
00:18:53.800 She is so.
00:18:54.500 Like wrap my head around that because that, that is foreign to me.
00:18:58.280 For sure.
00:18:58.600 I don't know if you know, but I was the national guard. I did a deployment to Iraq in 05, 06.
00:19:04.400 That's foreign to me.
00:19:05.440 So explain that to me.
00:19:06.180 Heyday. Okay.
00:19:07.980 So she, I don't know why. I can't explain why.
00:19:11.740 She grew up in a military family. So her, her dad was a, literally did like 38 years in the army.
00:19:17.940 Um, just retired recently, but she, um, she mostly did, she mostly joined the army to, well, one, to get college paid for. 0.52
00:19:27.140 And then two, to kind of appease her dad in a way, I guess. I know, I know like.
00:19:31.860 Understand.
00:19:32.400 Yeah. It's really what it is. Like her sister went to West Point, you know, so they were a big West Point family and she just had kind of that pressure to join the army.
00:19:39.920 Um, she was an NCO though.
00:19:42.040 No, she was an officer. So she did ROTC.
00:19:44.120 Oh, she was.
00:19:44.680 But she did, she went to East Carolina university, did ROTC. Um, and she ended up being a signal officer.
00:19:50.280 So not combat, obviously not combat arms because women back then couldn't, but, um, she was very much the, I don't buy into the army kind of mentality. 0.99
00:19:59.360 Like I'm doing this cause I have to, but I'm not, she didn't really, I don't know how to say it better.
00:20:06.780 Um, she didn't go like all in, I guess.
00:20:09.520 Like she performed well, did her job well, was physically fit and everything, but she wasn't like the, the women who would go shoot guns on the weekend. 1.00
00:20:18.320 If that makes sense.
00:20:19.320 You know, she would rather just have a normal life and that kind of be her job. 1.00
00:20:23.320 So, so yeah, she never really embraced the full, like I'm a, I'm a soldier.
00:20:28.320 I'm a warrior mentality as a, as a female.
00:20:30.960 Yeah.
00:20:32.100 I only asked that because I know you have the polarities between masculinity and femininity.
00:20:37.340 Yeah.
00:20:37.720 So if, you know, you're obviously you're, you're masculine, you're in a masculine position.
00:20:42.500 Um, and then if she was too, I was curious about the dichotomy and what the relationship was like, not only from how you guys felt about each other, but how that actually worked in reality with two masculine energies.
00:20:58.420 But it sounds like it was different than that.
00:20:59.980 It was.
00:21:00.400 Yeah.
00:21:00.600 It was a lot more, uh, I mean, to some extent, you know, it was almost like she was just a military spouse, right?
00:21:08.240 Like she, and that had a job on base type of thing. 1.00
00:21:10.960 Like, I don't want to belittle it to that.
00:21:12.880 Cause she was still, you know, serving our country and doing awesome things. 0.88
00:21:15.540 But, but that was the mentality, right?
00:21:17.700 It's like, Hey, you're the, you're the one doing like the deployments and I'm the one going, you know, going on the trips and doing deployments and shooting guns and doing all the cool stuff.
00:21:26.080 And she was the, yeah, she was going to work type of thing.
00:21:29.580 She would drop the kids off at daycare while I was gone, you know.
00:21:34.260 Men, let me take a quick break.
00:21:35.960 Um, in this conversation, we're talking a lot about the issues that men are facing on a daily basis.
00:21:40.960 Specifically with the mental and emotional battles that were tasked with fighting, uh, one concern among many that I have for men is how many of them are wandering around aimlessly without purpose or conviction in life.
00:21:55.420 And I can't help but think that this is a driving cause of anxiety, depression, and even suicide in men.
00:22:04.420 And that's part of the reason that our vision exercise inside of our free battle ready program is so crucial.
00:22:10.240 Um, the first step to creating your battle plan is a vision for the future.
00:22:15.700 And when you sign up for this free program, we'll teach you all the ins and outs of creating your own compelling vision.
00:22:21.780 So you never, never feel rudderless again.
00:22:26.200 Check it out.
00:22:26.980 You can do that at order of man.com slash battle ready.
00:22:30.280 That's order of man.com slash battle ready.
00:22:33.260 Do that right after the conversation for now.
00:22:35.700 Let's get back to it with Nick.
00:22:39.100 Yeah.
00:22:39.840 Well, I mean, to be, to be fair, like just because she's not doing the cool military shit doesn't mean that she's not doing.
00:22:47.800 Absolutely.
00:22:48.600 Absolutely.
00:22:49.280 Yeah.
00:22:49.480 And it's hard.
00:22:49.940 I know.
00:22:50.380 I don't.
00:22:50.780 Yeah.
00:22:50.920 I don't, I don't mean that in that way.
00:22:52.860 Don't get me wrong, but.
00:22:54.540 No, I don't think you do, but I just want to make sure that we're clear about it is, um, that just because, well, frankly, women, well, I always say this, like if I, if I meet you or meet a friend, I'm like, does your wife work outside of the home?
00:23:11.460 Cause if she's, if she's not working outside of the home, that does not mean she's not working.
00:23:17.360 A hundred percent.
00:23:18.000 She clearly is working.
00:23:18.740 A hundred percent.
00:23:19.220 Maybe even more so than I personally am willing to.
00:23:22.160 And I can feel that for sure.
00:23:23.420 Yes.
00:23:23.900 A hundred percent.
00:23:24.820 I would not, I would not want to be a stay at home dad and have all those responsibilities.
00:23:29.120 A hundred percent.
00:23:29.620 I totally agree.
00:23:31.780 You talk a lot about expectation management.
00:23:34.460 Um, explain that theory, explain that concept to me and how you guys work through that, especially I'll add this caveat, especially when you guys don't have the same expectations.
00:23:45.800 Yeah.
00:23:46.320 Um, and a lot of that, a lot of the expect, so expectation management, at least when I,
00:23:53.420 I put myself back in time to that situation, I was, all I was looking at was the positives.
00:23:59.640 I didn't do like a good pro cons list, you know, and go through the actual exercise of saying, okay, like, what is this going to look like long-term other than, Hey, this is going to put me in a better financial situation long-term.
00:24:11.520 Right.
00:24:11.760 Cause I'll, I'm going from enlisted to warrant officer.
00:24:14.360 So I'm getting a promotion.
00:24:15.660 So that was about it was, Hey, long-term I'm going to put myself in a better financial position.
00:24:22.960 And also potentially like be a CW four CW five and retire as a, you know, chief foreign officer type of thing.
00:24:30.140 So the expectations for me were not realistic, right?
00:24:36.660 Like they were, it was everything good that I was looking forward to none of the negatives.
00:24:43.280 And another thing was I also made this decision because I was looking at not being gone as much for my family.
00:24:52.520 Right.
00:24:52.880 Like I was looking at that decision as like, okay, like my life's going to chill out, but then I get to aviation and I get to my first unit.
00:25:01.340 And two months later, I go on a nine month deployment to Afghanistan and I'm like, okay, well, there goes that, you know?
00:25:07.100 So it was, so it was a lot of those, what year was that?
00:25:11.380 That was in 2018, 17 to 18.
00:25:14.420 Got it.
00:25:14.840 Yeah.
00:25:15.100 So it was a lot, it was a lot of those, just the expectations were not practical.
00:25:19.920 They were, they were, um, yeah, like I said before, rose colored, you know, it wasn't, I didn't look at the cons seriously, I guess.
00:25:29.160 With enough weight and gravity, not that I looking back, not, not that I wouldn't do the same thing,
00:25:35.260 but my expectations were not there properly.
00:25:38.160 So it did end up throwing me for a loop.
00:25:40.440 Was she willing to remind you of those cons and did you accept that or did you not listen to that?
00:25:46.480 That's a great question.
00:25:47.820 Um, thinking back, I don't remember there being much tension about that or her being like,
00:25:59.780 I think she might've honestly been on board in the same regard I was right.
00:26:05.860 With having the, I think she fell into the same trap to some extent.
00:26:10.800 So I don't think it was her saying, Hey, well, what about this, this, this?
00:26:15.800 I think it was her more being like, okay, yeah, let's do it.
00:26:18.680 You know, this sounds great.
00:26:19.960 I'm going to trust you and listen to you on this.
00:26:22.460 So, yeah.
00:26:23.340 So I think we both kind of had the, the improper expectations going into it.
00:26:29.520 Why did she trust you with all due respect?
00:26:31.780 No, no, that's a, that's a great question.
00:26:34.340 Um, the easy answer to that is I didn't give her any reason not to, um, the probably deeper
00:26:47.740 rooted answer to that is she, her upbringing was very traditional, right?
00:26:56.280 Like her dad was the man of the house.
00:26:57.920 Her mom cooked all the meals, you know, her dad would take care of everything.
00:27:03.000 And it was very much a, Hey, the man leads the family type of, um, upbringing for her.
00:27:08.540 And I, that carried forward and she, she very much like follows me and wants me to be the
00:27:17.440 leader in the family, even something as stupid as, Hey, where are we going to go to dinner?
00:27:22.100 Right.
00:27:22.400 Or like what movie are we going to watch tonight?
00:27:24.000 Like she doesn't even want to make that decision.
00:27:26.340 And there are times obviously where she wants to make decisions, but like she would rather
00:27:31.300 have me say, Hey, this is what we're going to do.
00:27:33.220 And her just say, okay, or no, I don't feel like that pick something else.
00:27:36.820 Right.
00:27:37.040 And then I'm still making the decision, but at least, you know, her input is felt.
00:27:40.760 So that's kind of, I think that's why I think it was from her upbringing.
00:27:45.060 I think it was just embedded in her that the man of the family leads the house and you trust
00:27:50.800 them unless, you know, they give you a reason not to.
00:27:53.980 So some of it, obviously it was, some of it was earned, right?
00:27:57.940 Because I just hadn't given her a reason not to.
00:28:02.440 Um, and yeah, that's a tough question to answer.
00:28:06.900 And that's a really good question, but that's about as deep as I can get, I guess, right
00:28:11.820 now.
00:28:13.920 Well, I'm, I mean, I think the dynamic that you and your wife have, how long you guys
00:28:17.800 been married?
00:28:18.700 13 years now.
00:28:20.940 I think the dynamic that you guys have is one that men would, more men would like.
00:28:25.780 Yeah.
00:28:26.940 Where you lead as the man and she follows as the woman. 0.99
00:28:31.040 And that doesn't mean that either one of your roles are less than or more than, um, I can
00:28:37.020 really appreciate that.
00:28:38.120 That's the dynamic that I personally like myself.
00:28:41.460 She sounds like an incredible woman where she's willing to acknowledge that you can
00:28:46.920 lead, but it also sounds like you're a pretty incredible man who are worthy of her following
00:28:54.580 because you need both.
00:28:56.500 You need a woman who's willing to allow her man to lead. 0.92
00:29:00.300 And then you need a man who is worthy of a woman following.
00:29:05.180 So it sounds like both of you guys are knocking this out of the park.
00:29:08.500 We're getting, I mean, we're not perfect, but yes, it's like, yeah, as an overall kind
00:29:14.940 of philosophy and relationship.
00:29:16.240 Yes.
00:29:16.680 Like we're, we're extremely blessed because honestly it it's, we haven't had to work extremely
00:29:23.420 hard at that part of it, right?
00:29:25.420 Like, obviously there's still relationship things that you have to work on, but that
00:29:28.880 part of it kind of did fall into place.
00:29:31.120 And I do attribute a lot of it to our, both of our upbringings, right?
00:29:34.740 Like I was raised in a Christian household and it was just kind of Christian values were
00:29:38.940 instilled in me, right?
00:29:39.760 To lead, lead as a man, lead as, and then, yeah, she, she, as I said, kind of had that ingrained
00:29:46.960 in her as well.
00:29:47.760 So we are fortunate in that regard.
00:29:50.200 It sounds like you're a man who makes good decisions.
00:29:55.220 That might be nature and nurture.
00:29:58.180 Let me ask you this.
00:29:59.420 What if you weren't a man who make, who made good decisions?
00:30:05.180 Uh, would you be okay with letting her lead or that would be really hard to navigate that?
00:30:13.340 Well, let me, okay.
00:30:14.600 Let me ask you in a different way.
00:30:15.660 Okay.
00:30:15.900 But has there any, has there ever been a time where you've had a hard time making decisions?
00:30:25.000 Nothing, um, monumental, but there have been times.
00:30:30.960 So I'll give you an example recently.
00:30:32.600 So, um, when I got in the military, I'm now I'm a financial planner and in a financial planning
00:30:37.100 business, but I got a, a job offer to go work for a pretty prominent firm, um, in, in another
00:30:45.240 state.
00:30:45.600 So it was like, it would have been a big change for us.
00:30:48.120 And my initial reaction was, this is an incredible opportunity.
00:30:54.300 I want to do it.
00:30:55.440 Right.
00:30:56.000 And that was one of those, that was one of those times where I needed her to step in and
00:31:02.840 say, okay, that's awesome.
00:31:04.920 You got this opportunity, but so for a little more context, I own my own firm.
00:31:09.220 So it's, it was one of those things that I'm going through the growing pains of building
00:31:14.500 a firm, right.
00:31:15.160 And building a business.
00:31:15.880 And then there's this established business that I could plug and play into and kind of,
00:31:20.980 you know, accelerate that.
00:31:22.340 Right.
00:31:22.580 And she had to look at me and say, Hey, Nick, like, this is an awesome opportunity, but do
00:31:29.300 you not think you can do this on your own?
00:31:31.020 Do you not think you can get there right in a couple of years or whatever?
00:31:34.000 Like, yeah, it's going to take more time, but like you have, she was, yeah.
00:31:39.700 So she had to be the voice and reason in that because without her, I'd probably, I probably
00:31:43.940 would have done it because I was, I did the whole pro cons list.
00:31:46.980 Right.
00:31:47.220 And the pros in my mind were outweighing the cons, but that was the X factor that I didn't
00:31:52.720 even think about was my, my future ability to become that right.
00:31:58.440 Or get into that situation.
00:31:59.780 So, so yeah, that was, that, that's a good example that I can think of off the top of
00:32:03.760 my head is when she had to step in and say, Hey, like, and we're not moving again.
00:32:08.160 You know, we just, we're done with moving.
00:32:10.540 We got out of the military.
00:32:11.360 Like I'm done with that life.
00:32:12.500 So that was a factor too.
00:32:13.520 But, but yeah, she had to step in and be the voice of reason in that.
00:32:16.360 And I mean, honestly make, make the final decision.
00:32:21.700 Yeah.
00:32:22.080 I mean, that's, uh, that's hard, you know, based on the dichotomy that you guys are talking
00:32:26.140 about and the polarity between masculine and feminine, but it sounds like you guys both
00:32:31.620 really respect and appreciate each other.
00:32:36.560 Um, I want to move a little bit more into the mental and emotional toils of not only the
00:32:45.360 work that you did in, in your military service, but also as a financial advisor, I don't know
00:32:50.720 if you know, but you and I probably walk similar paths, maybe a few years behind each other.
00:32:57.120 Um, I came out of the military.
00:32:59.140 I got into a financial planning practice.
00:33:01.060 I grew my business over nine years and eventually moved into this.
00:33:03.800 So I understand what it's like to try to grow a business in the, in the financial world.
00:33:10.660 And by the way, in 2008, 2009, the worst time in the history of mankind that you could have
00:33:17.400 done this.
00:33:18.580 Um, and it was rough, man.
00:33:20.340 It was really rough to try to convince her and, and show her why this was a good thing,
00:33:25.180 but also not fully believing that myself.
00:33:28.280 And then maybe dealing with some feelings of inadequacy or doubt or concern.
00:33:33.600 Did you have those feelings yourself?
00:33:35.000 Big time, especially the, and I've heard you talk about it, the imposter syndrome, right?
00:33:38.940 Because here I am this, like, I have a awesome resume, but it's not applicable, right?
00:33:45.140 And I mean, some of it's transferable, but not apples to apples.
00:33:48.240 Um, so I go in and I see all these guys who are crushing it in the financial industry.
00:33:53.080 And the first year I'm like, I can't even, you know, I could get a couple of clients,
00:33:57.520 but it's like, man, how am I going to sustain this?
00:34:00.140 And how am I going to actually like get people to trust me?
00:34:03.540 And, um, so that was the biggest thing for me.
00:34:06.080 It was getting over that imposter syndrome of, of, you know, I'm new in this industry.
00:34:12.100 Like, how am I supposed to, to show people that they can trust me with it, with their money,
00:34:17.640 you know, cause it's a really important thing to trust, um, or to put in somebody else's
00:34:22.660 hands.
00:34:22.960 So that was the hardest thing for me was the imposter syndrome.
00:34:27.200 And then also what, what kind of was a trickle effect of that was me having to go from being
00:34:34.640 in this quiet, professional military environment to now I have to be, I have to sell, right?
00:34:39.440 I have to sell myself and I have to put myself out there to the world.
00:34:42.520 And I had never done that before.
00:34:44.040 And I'm not comfortable, wasn't comfortable talking about myself or even talking about,
00:34:49.100 you know, things that I was good at.
00:34:51.100 Like I just didn't, I was always taught to keep that quiet, right.
00:34:54.040 And keep that shut.
00:34:54.800 So those are the two biggest hurdles for me for sure.
00:34:57.940 And I would say now I'm finally at the point where I'm feeling confident in what I'm doing.
00:35:02.840 You know, I, I, I see the value in what I'm doing and now I'm finally getting to that
00:35:07.780 point.
00:35:08.080 So it did take time.
00:35:09.660 Well, I got to tell you, man, um, people might not see this normally and I would not
00:35:16.100 normally bring this up, but you reached out to me with some balls and I, and I got to
00:35:20.300 say that like you, you, you made, I think it was three paragraphs and you're like, Hey,
00:35:24.740 here's what I like about what you do.
00:35:25.920 Here's why I should be on your podcast.
00:35:27.920 And here's what I'm going to do.
00:35:29.040 I'm like, okay, thanks.
00:35:32.280 Like, how do I say no to that?
00:35:33.680 Like, that's pretty convicting.
00:35:35.340 I appreciate it.
00:35:36.060 Um, and, and, and literally, bro, at this point I've got thousands and thousands of
00:35:41.540 requests every day.
00:35:42.840 I get half a dozen requests, but for whatever reason you're stood out and I got to tell you,
00:35:48.800 and I want everybody to know who's listening to this, that you reached out with conviction
00:35:53.760 and clarity, not arrogance, not bravado, not ego, but I could tell that this is a guy
00:35:59.860 who's serious about what he does.
00:36:01.460 He believes in what he does.
00:36:02.700 Um, and I got to tell you, man, I really respected that about you.
00:36:07.280 I really appreciate that because to be honest, it felt like a long shot.
00:36:10.660 And I was like, you know what, let's do it.
00:36:13.080 Let's see what happens.
00:36:13.960 You know, it was one of those things that you don't, if you don't try, you're not going
00:36:17.500 to get the opportunity.
00:36:18.460 So I really, really appreciate that.
00:36:20.640 Um, and it, like I said, it did take me time to get to this point where I was, you know,
00:36:26.140 confident in reaching out to people or in doing things like this.
00:36:29.200 So I appreciate that.
00:36:32.200 When you were in the throes, cause I know you really dealt with a lot of depression, anxiety.
00:36:37.420 It sounds like based on what you sent me, some suicidal ideation as well.
00:36:41.780 Uh, when you were in the throes of that, and I want to be very clear, I've never experienced
00:36:47.400 that.
00:36:47.680 I've never been in the position where I felt like taking my life is the best option.
00:36:53.800 Um, I can, I can appreciate that's probably not the right word, but I can, I can understand
00:36:59.240 maybe to a degree where people are coming from when they feel that way.
00:37:03.280 It's a foreign concept to me.
00:37:04.920 So work me through that a little bit.
00:37:06.560 Yeah.
00:37:06.880 And that's, first of all, that's amazing.
00:37:09.980 And hopefully, I mean, hopefully it stays that way the rest of your life.
00:37:13.660 That's incredible.
00:37:14.260 Um, but absolutely the, the craziest thing to me is that I was the exact same way.
00:37:22.540 So I had never had any, even thought of mental illness or depression or anything the entire,
00:37:30.600 my entire life.
00:37:31.480 And then it came on all of a sudden, like it literally was something where I was sitting
00:37:37.060 in, in flight school one day learning about the Blackhawk engine, like nothing, nothing
00:37:43.600 triggered it.
00:37:44.400 Nothing was like, you know, all right, now you're going to be depressed.
00:37:48.120 Right.
00:37:48.460 And there was nothing really like coming down on my life, at least that I knew at the time.
00:37:53.880 And all of a sudden it just came into my mind.
00:37:56.000 I just had this suicidal ideation, scared the crap out of me.
00:38:00.040 I was, didn't know how to react because, well, one, I had always been at the mindset
00:38:05.620 before that somebody that is depressed or has some sort of mental illness.
00:38:12.460 I was, I was ignorant.
00:38:14.260 Right.
00:38:14.500 And I was of the mindset that it was a choice, like, and that it was something that a victim
00:38:18.980 mentality that people chose not to get out of or not to do the things to get out of it.
00:38:24.240 So when it hit me, it was kind of like, how is this happening to me?
00:38:29.860 Like, I have never, I'm, first of all, I've never been a victim in my life.
00:38:34.120 Right.
00:38:34.340 Or had that victim mentality.
00:38:35.900 Like I've always just been, all right, all right, this is the task.
00:38:38.620 I'm going to accomplish it.
00:38:39.920 And if there's roadblocks in the way, I'm going to figure it out.
00:38:42.180 Right.
00:38:42.460 And I'm going to find a way to figure it out.
00:38:44.660 So when it happened to me, um, it consumed me because I was obsessing over the thoughts
00:38:52.340 that were happening to me and obsessing over fixing it.
00:38:55.180 Like, so every time one of those thoughts came into my head, I didn't, I wasn't able to
00:39:02.000 just say, okay, that's weird, you know, and move on.
00:39:04.320 Right.
00:39:04.680 I was sitting in that thought and diagnosing it, trying to figure out one, where it came
00:39:10.940 from and two, how to get rid of it and how to not have it happen again.
00:39:14.660 And the irony in that is it created this thought loop and it created this, I was essentially
00:39:20.480 reinforcing those thoughts by giving them the attention that they, you know, I shouldn't
00:39:25.900 have.
00:39:26.180 Right.
00:39:26.440 But I didn't know that at the time.
00:39:27.980 So it was this weird thing where I just, it's just started spiraling and getting worse
00:39:32.860 and worse.
00:39:33.960 Um, and yeah, it led me down a really bad path, really dark path.
00:39:37.940 Like it, and I, like I said before, like I have Christian values and I go to church and
00:39:42.960 I'm, I am a pretty strong Christian.
00:39:44.800 I mean, I, I'm not the perfect Christian, right?
00:39:47.240 Like I, I slipped my words here and there, but, um, well, I mean, to be honest, everybody
00:39:53.220 does.
00:39:53.960 There's no such thing.
00:39:55.060 Right.
00:39:55.360 Of course.
00:39:55.960 Of course.
00:39:56.900 Well, there's one, there's one fair enough, but nobody else.
00:39:59.680 Um, but it, it felt like it felt like spiritual warfare, like, so, and this is kind of one
00:40:09.320 of those stigmas that I'm talking about is that even saying that at the time, I felt like
00:40:17.100 I was crazy.
00:40:18.240 You know what I mean?
00:40:19.120 Like, I felt like if I told anybody that, that I'd be perceived as crazy and that it would
00:40:25.680 just be like, okay, dude, like you need to go, you know, get chained up somewhere.
00:40:31.100 Right.
00:40:31.580 So that was what kind of kept me captive, if you will, was the fear of the fear of exposing
00:40:40.560 it because I didn't want to be perceived as crazy, especially in a type a military environment,
00:40:46.600 you know, where everybody's just talking crap and you know what I mean?
00:40:50.640 You're not, you're not really comfortable with talking about real things like that, I
00:40:55.880 guess.
00:40:56.480 Um, so yeah.
00:40:58.260 I mean, not only are you not comfortable, but I've been in therapy sessions where somebody
00:41:03.300 has asked me a question.
00:41:04.260 I'm like, I'm not fucking answering that question.
00:41:06.120 Yeah.
00:41:07.180 Yeah.
00:41:07.660 Not because I don't want you to know, but because what you'll do to me, if I do answer
00:41:11.320 that question, the affirmative.
00:41:13.060 Exactly.
00:41:13.660 And especially when you're, well, for my situation, I was a pilot, right?
00:41:17.640 Like, so if I even, if I even have to go on your livelihood is at risk, bro, literally
00:41:22.600 my finances, everything, my career.
00:41:24.960 So literally if I have to get on meds, like I, and I was in flight school.
00:41:28.620 So if I go on meds, they're probably kicking me out of flight school and who knows what's
00:41:32.440 like, who knows if I'll be able to go back to SF, if this is the reason I got kicked
00:41:37.160 out, you know?
00:41:38.220 So yeah, there was a lot of, a lot of that.
00:41:41.040 And it just, it kept me in that darkness for way too long.
00:41:45.720 Like it ended up being a, it ended up being a five-year period that I was not, I wouldn't
00:41:52.120 say suicidal the entire time, but it was a good three years that I was suicidal.
00:41:56.340 And then it ended up morphing into this anxiety, panic attacks and just crazy dizzy spells that
00:42:02.120 essentially my body was telling me like, dude, stop, you know, like you've, you're pushing
00:42:08.760 so hard and you need to like, stop and figure this out.
00:42:13.060 And yeah, I just didn't get myself, I didn't think I could, you know?
00:42:20.600 Well, in all fairness, you probably couldn't.
00:42:23.840 Right.
00:42:24.220 Without the repercussions, right?
00:42:25.980 Like without.
00:42:26.640 Yeah.
00:42:26.960 I mean, let's be honest about it.
00:42:29.380 Like, but this is the stigma.
00:42:31.720 Yeah.
00:42:32.020 Right.
00:42:32.460 This is, this is the issue is that if, and God love our female counterparts. 1.00
00:42:40.300 If a woman says she's dealing with these things, we rally behind her.
00:42:43.900 Of course.
00:42:44.180 Yep.
00:42:44.960 If a man says he's dealing with these things, he loses his job.
00:42:49.120 He loses his friends.
00:42:50.660 Yep.
00:42:51.240 He loses his wife.
00:42:52.880 He loses his kids.
00:42:54.320 He loses his financial means.
00:42:57.020 Yep.
00:42:57.280 And there are very real consequences to a man saying, hey, I'm dealing with some shit.
00:43:04.060 Exactly.
00:43:04.720 And then unfortunately, after all that happens, right?
00:43:08.400 That's why we're seeing the, the suicide numbers, you know, still creep up, even though
00:43:13.660 there's resources aplenty out there.
00:43:16.220 Right.
00:43:16.600 Because.
00:43:17.580 What did you do?
00:43:18.620 So good question.
00:43:19.860 So, um, in flight school, I actually went to the one day I was driving home and I was just
00:43:26.300 terrified to go home and I stopped at the chaplain's office, went to the chaplain and
00:43:32.320 it was, this was scary for me.
00:43:34.080 This was like, all right, like either go home.
00:43:36.900 Cause there's consequences.
00:43:38.180 It's scary.
00:43:38.760 Exactly.
00:43:39.120 So either go home and potentially take my life.
00:43:41.360 Right.
00:43:42.100 Or I'd say, screw it.
00:43:43.680 Let's go talk to the chaplain.
00:43:44.640 Cause that was the safest place that I could go.
00:43:46.540 And I was not going to go to a behavioral health clinic on a military base.
00:43:50.580 Right.
00:43:50.740 Like that was like career, career suicide.
00:43:53.480 So I go.
00:43:54.220 Ending.
00:43:54.520 Yeah.
00:43:54.700 So I go to the chaplain and tell him what's going on and guess what he has to do.
00:44:00.200 He has to take me to behavioral health.
00:44:02.280 So he takes, drives me to behavioral health clinic.
00:44:05.680 But the craziest thing is I fill out this stupid suicide, not stupid, sorry, but the
00:44:10.880 suicide questionnaire that felt stupid to me.
00:44:12.740 Cause I was like, okay.
00:44:14.420 Stupid.
00:44:14.880 It's okay.
00:44:15.300 You can say it.
00:44:15.940 You can say it.
00:44:16.620 It felt stupid to me, but I understand the intent is not stupid.
00:44:20.120 You know?
00:44:20.220 I know.
00:44:20.480 No, but the reality is like, let's be honest.
00:44:22.600 The reality of anybody who's ever had to fill one of those out thinks exactly the way you
00:44:26.820 do.
00:44:27.100 So let's just be honest about it.
00:44:28.700 Sounds good.
00:44:29.540 So I fill it out and wait in the waiting room.
00:44:33.080 And then I go back and see somebody and she, I'm not kidding.
00:44:35.800 She takes out the clipboard that I filled out that form on and reads it to me line by
00:44:40.140 line and then looks back at me and says, okay.
00:44:43.260 So it was basically like, do you have thoughts of harming yourself?
00:44:46.420 I was like, yeah.
00:44:47.100 Do you have thoughts of harming others?
00:44:48.180 No.
00:44:48.900 Have you made a plan to do it?
00:44:50.040 I was like, no.
00:44:50.700 Do you want to do it?
00:44:52.020 No.
00:44:52.660 You know, I was like, no, I don't want to do it.
00:44:54.360 I'm just having these thoughts and I want to get rid of them.
00:44:56.240 So she reads all that to me.
00:44:58.180 And then she's like, okay, well, based on this, I think it's just a temporary thing that
00:45:02.440 you're going to get through and you can continue training.
00:45:05.260 And that was it.
00:45:07.180 That was it.
00:45:08.200 And I was like, all right, cool.
00:45:09.560 So thanks.
00:45:10.260 Thanks for the help.
00:45:11.240 Like that was a cry for help.
00:45:14.480 Clearly, you know, like a freaking former green beret is not going to put himself in
00:45:20.220 that situation if it's not something super serious.
00:45:23.940 So that gave me a super bad taste.
00:45:25.500 Well, and the fact that you went and saw a woman.
00:45:27.660 Yeah.
00:45:28.780 Yeah, I know.
00:45:29.760 No, like, no, I want to be really clear about this.
00:45:32.880 The fact that a man is seeing a woman to address his mental health issues.
00:45:38.020 Like, are we ridiculous?
00:45:40.740 Are we insane?
00:45:42.180 Yeah.
00:45:42.740 I know we're not supposed to talk about this, but you know what?
00:45:46.360 You needed to come talk to me.
00:45:48.060 I agree.
00:45:48.780 You needed to come talk with somebody else who was in your same shoes.
00:45:52.600 Yes.
00:45:52.900 Not some woman who sits in an office, a climate-controlled office, and sings kumbaya with her clients 1.00
00:45:59.420 all day about what you're fucking dealing with. 0.93
00:46:02.000 For real, man.
00:46:02.560 And I know I'm getting fired up about this, but this is an issue, man.
00:46:05.200 No, and it pissed me off, too, because now in my world, right, I go do this.
00:46:12.040 I put my freaking career on the line.
00:46:13.580 I put everything on the line.
00:46:15.280 And now, I mean, I don't want, this is going to sound very victim, right?
00:46:18.980 But now it dooms me to not having anywhere to go, right?
00:46:24.060 And now I'm like, all right, shit, like, I got to figure this out on my own.
00:46:27.360 And now I have an extra four years of my life that I'm just trying to get out of this pit, right?
00:46:34.300 Because that completely shut the door for me.
00:46:36.840 Like, I was like, hell no, there's no way I'm going to behavioral health ever again,
00:46:41.620 because what the hell are they going to do for me, you know?
00:46:44.520 Like, what are they going to do that I can't do on my own at this point when I go,
00:46:49.740 and that's the only treatment I got, you know?
00:46:52.740 So that, yeah, you're right.
00:46:54.800 That pissed me off.
00:46:55.580 And eventually, four years later, I got knee surgery when I was in the 160th, when I was a pilot.
00:47:05.080 I got knee surgery, so that grounded me from flying for nine months.
00:47:08.980 That gave me permission to say, okay, let's figure out what's going on a little bit, right?
00:47:13.900 Because I was already grounded.
00:47:15.560 The consequences of not being able to fly were gone.
00:47:18.320 So that gave me permission to go to the flight surgeon, and I still sugarcoated it.
00:47:23.880 I still said, I didn't say, hey, I had this history of suicidal thoughts.
00:47:28.340 I said, hey, I'm having these dizzy spells, because that's what it was at the time.
00:47:32.700 I don't know what they are.
00:47:33.960 Let's, can we figure it out, right?
00:47:35.920 So I was still beating around the bush.
00:47:37.560 But eventually, after we did head-to-toe scans and tests and everything, eventually, they were like, all right, you're healthy.
00:47:45.380 Like, this might be anxiety.
00:47:48.580 Let's try to treat you forward and see what happens.
00:47:50.640 And that is the moment that I started actually getting better, which is crazy.
00:47:56.040 But it literally took five years to get to that point.
00:47:59.120 Yeah, and it was a journey to get there, obviously.
00:48:01.700 But that's kind of how it ended up happening.
00:48:03.820 And that's how I started digging myself out of the pit.
00:48:06.480 And I'm, like, it was, medication was the thing that gave me the space, right?
00:48:13.320 It wasn't the thing that, like, fixed me and that I'm off it now.
00:48:17.260 So it's clearly not something that, you know, I think is a long-term solution.
00:48:22.420 But it gave me the space to start, like, realizing what the hell was going on with me, if you will, and kind of get out of my own crap.
00:48:30.740 So, yeah, that's eventually what happened.
00:48:36.580 Look, you and I are not that different.
00:48:39.980 I remember two, I think it was two years ago, maybe three now at this point, I was getting, I was really lightheaded.
00:48:47.960 I had my kids in the back of my truck.
00:48:50.380 I was really lightheaded.
00:48:52.240 My heart was beating fast.
00:48:54.080 I was getting a little nauseous.
00:48:55.480 And I was going into the Jimmy John's drive-thru line because I think one of my kids, maybe my second, was playing, had a baseball game.
00:49:05.500 And we got done with this baseball game.
00:49:07.620 And I thought, hey, let's just go get Jimmy John's quick, easy.
00:49:10.740 We'll come home, relax, go to bed.
00:49:12.540 Everything's fine.
00:49:14.040 I pulled into Jimmy John's.
00:49:17.120 And the lightheadedness got worse.
00:49:22.160 My heart rate started to speed up.
00:49:24.140 But I was feeling more and more nauseous.
00:49:27.100 I was feeling more and more lightheaded.
00:49:28.720 And in a moment of clarity, I thought, I cannot get in this line.
00:49:32.080 Because if I get in this line, there's three or four cars in front of me.
00:49:36.340 There's three or four cars behind me.
00:49:37.820 I can't get out of here.
00:49:39.940 And I called my ex and I said, hey, I need to drop the kids off.
00:49:44.300 I'm having an issue.
00:49:46.700 And she said, yeah, drop them off.
00:49:49.420 And she was great.
00:49:50.560 She was concerned about it.
00:49:51.840 She was good as she could be.
00:49:54.140 I dropped the kids off.
00:49:55.600 I went to the ER.
00:49:57.720 And they said, you're having an anxiety attack.
00:50:00.280 I'm like, no.
00:50:01.000 Yeah.
00:50:01.400 No.
00:50:01.740 Right.
00:50:02.220 That's what I thought, too.
00:50:03.500 Yep.
00:50:04.440 That's not what I'm having.
00:50:05.280 That's not a thing for me.
00:50:07.760 Right.
00:50:08.920 I don't deal with that bullshit.
00:50:10.320 Right.
00:50:10.540 Like, I don't, I'm not weak.
00:50:12.880 I'm not dealing.
00:50:13.580 That's not it.
00:50:14.360 And they're like, no, that's, that's it.
00:50:15.620 I'm like, nope.
00:50:17.420 Run the test.
00:50:18.400 So they ran all the tests.
00:50:19.500 They're like, yeah, you're having an anxiety attack.
00:50:21.920 And they gave me a drug and it chilled me out for that evening, which admittedly was,
00:50:26.440 was good.
00:50:26.920 That's what I needed.
00:50:27.660 Right.
00:50:27.780 But, um, but yeah, man, unless you face it, unless you, I never dealt with that before
00:50:34.500 until I dealt with it.
00:50:35.440 And I was like, oh, that's shit's real.
00:50:37.380 I didn't realize it was, but it's real.
00:50:39.020 And that's actually real.
00:50:40.020 Yeah.
00:50:40.160 That's what happened to me too.
00:50:41.340 I was like, there's gotta be something wrong with me physically.
00:50:43.820 Right.
00:50:44.140 Like, there's no way my head is causing this, you know, there's no way, especially because
00:50:49.280 I had, I had a positive outlook on life overall, you know?
00:50:53.400 So it was just something like imbalance, whatever you want to call it.
00:50:56.740 Something was going on.
00:50:58.020 That was just, yeah, but it was weird because my mentality was, has always been like, just
00:51:05.780 drive on.
00:51:07.140 Right.
00:51:07.420 And like, if you are in a bad situation, work yourself out of it or do something to get
00:51:11.900 yourself out of it.
00:51:12.760 But it just, for some reason that was not working in this situation, I did not have the
00:51:17.300 right answers for, to deal with the mental health crisis, if you will.
00:51:21.400 How did you begin to deal with that?
00:51:23.040 You know, you started to confront reality, which I did as well.
00:51:25.820 Yeah.
00:51:26.020 Um, but how did you begin to confront that, deal with it and put yourself on the right
00:51:30.680 track?
00:51:31.640 So, um, there was a lot of things that I tried during that, the dark ages, what I call them.
00:51:37.640 Um, I tried all of it.
00:51:39.480 Well, first I went to Google right after that mental health provider was like, all right, 0.84
00:51:43.580 you're don't go to me.
00:51:44.340 Don't go to me.
00:51:45.220 Like dying.
00:51:45.660 You have cancer and everything else.
00:51:47.180 Exactly.
00:51:47.720 So, so web MD, whatever.
00:51:49.300 Um, yeah, exactly.
00:51:51.040 Disclaimer.
00:51:51.620 It's not, it won't tell you all the answers, but I tried meditation.
00:51:54.820 I tried self-help books.
00:51:56.240 I tried journaling.
00:51:57.180 I tried, uh, what else?
00:51:59.600 I tried getting on like supplements, like St.
00:52:01.740 John's ward and all these things.
00:52:03.100 Um, nothing was moving the needle.
00:52:04.720 Well, to be fair, I was like pretty deep in it, you know?
00:52:07.500 So it was like, it, it needed some more intervention than like a supplement, but I tried religion,
00:52:13.980 which this is where I get into the kind of the spiritual warfare part, because I, I don't
00:52:20.020 think this was like caused by the devil or anything.
00:52:23.780 Right.
00:52:24.040 But I do think it was an advantageous thing that was taken advantage of by, by the devil
00:52:30.160 or whatever, you know, um, you believe, but you're, but you believe in the devil.
00:52:34.480 I do.
00:52:34.960 Absolutely.
00:52:35.440 Because, so why wasn't it caused by the devil?
00:52:38.600 If that's what you believe, why wasn't it caused by that?
00:52:40.740 So because I think it was a lot of stress that actually caused the collapse, right?
00:52:50.140 I think it was me driving a million miles an hour, like succeeding at every freaking
00:52:55.580 level and making myself like unhealthy in a way to the point of success, because so caveat
00:53:02.780 this, like in flight school, I was through this depression and anxiety, and this is not
00:53:07.620 to brag.
00:53:08.080 This is to show people that like, you can be a superstar and still be dealing with something,
00:53:14.060 right?
00:53:14.360 Like I ended up being the distinguished honor graduate of my flight school class, you know,
00:53:17.880 like there's like 30 West Point officers there, you know what I mean?
00:53:21.700 So it was like, I was able to perform through it and mask it, um, to the point that nobody
00:53:28.080 else, nobody else would ever have any idea.
00:53:30.400 Nobody did until I finally said something and gave myself permission to, but, um, yeah,
00:53:36.520 I, I, so that's why I don't think it was caused by spiritual things because I think it was a
00:53:44.820 physiological thing that I just chronic stress and just pushed myself to the limits for so
00:53:49.600 long.
00:53:50.420 Um, but I definitely think it was, well, I know for a fact that it was taken advantage
00:53:55.660 of by that because I would go to church and these anxiety attacks would be magnified the
00:54:04.380 second I walked in the doors and it was like overwhelming, but I was, I still went right.
00:54:11.640 Like I still pushed through and I was still like, this is important for not only for me,
00:54:16.220 but for my family and for my kids to, you know, see the example and stuff.
00:54:19.400 So I, even though I wasn't getting anything out of it, to be fair, like the whole time I
00:54:24.800 was just waiting, hope, praying for it to be over, you know, cause I was just like looking
00:54:29.700 at the clock, like, let's get through this.
00:54:31.200 Um, and then I would, you know, I'd listen to worship music in the car or something and
00:54:37.260 like be praying.
00:54:38.060 And it, every single time I tried to do that, the depression and anxiety and suicidal ideations
00:54:43.880 would just magnify.
00:54:44.880 It was bizarre.
00:54:46.140 And it, it pissed me off to be honest, because you read all these scriptures, right.
00:54:50.340 About like pray and your anxiety.
00:54:52.420 I don't, I can't quote it exactly, but you know, like if you're dealing with anxiety,
00:54:56.480 prayer, you know, bring it up to God and everything.
00:54:58.580 So I'm like, I am, and why is this not working?
00:55:00.760 Right.
00:55:01.600 Um, but the irony of all of that is even through that and even being so pissed off and so mad
00:55:07.820 at God and everything, like now that I'm on the other side of it, I, it was for a reason.
00:55:15.040 You know what I mean?
00:55:15.580 Like now I am a better father.
00:55:17.900 I'm so much more like compassionate with my kids and so much, so more patient, I guess.
00:55:25.800 Like, and I see the reality of what can happen if you just bottle stuff up, you know what
00:55:33.680 I mean?
00:55:33.920 So, so I do see it as a blessing now, even though it sucked, like luckily I made it through
00:55:39.200 it and I think it was a, a blessing at the end of the day, you know, as, as crappy as
00:55:45.440 it was.
00:55:45.840 Yeah.
00:55:47.840 Well, I mean, that's a good perspective.
00:55:49.760 And you said something interesting about superstars.
00:55:53.160 Well, you being a superstar, accomplishing all the things that you want to accomplish
00:55:57.140 and still feeling this way.
00:55:58.700 I actually believe that the people who achieve at the highest levels are probably dealing
00:56:05.160 with the most shit.
00:56:06.780 Yeah.
00:56:07.540 I really do.
00:56:10.420 You know, I'm saying this jokingly, but somebody asked me, it's a weird question, but they asked
00:56:16.780 me all the same.
00:56:17.820 They said, if I was to be reincarnated as an animal, what would I be?
00:56:23.420 And you know, everybody would be like a lion or a bear, a rattlesnake, a wolf.
00:56:28.520 Yeah.
00:56:29.180 Panther, like something bad-ass.
00:56:32.400 And I, and I said, I'd want to be a jellyfish or like a hermit crab, you know, something like
00:56:37.620 where I would just be left alone.
00:56:42.000 Just chill.
00:56:42.740 Like exist in the ocean and chill and just be left alone and no issues.
00:56:46.960 And the, uh, Kip, my cohost, him and I were laughing about it, but, and, and I say that
00:56:53.520 a little bit tongue in cheek, but also a little bit true.
00:56:55.600 The people who succeed at the highest levels are expected to deal with the most weight.
00:57:01.540 You can't, you cannot achieve at the highest levels, the levels that you've achieved within
00:57:07.320 your military service without assuming a whole lot of weight that most of the human population
00:57:13.900 is not capable of, of shouldering.
00:57:18.040 Yeah, no, I think that's fair.
00:57:19.360 So it's a blessing and a curse.
00:57:20.760 And I think that's why it's so important.
00:57:22.560 We have these conversations because everybody listening to this wants to achieve at a high
00:57:26.240 level.
00:57:27.600 And we want the effort or excuse me, we want the result without the effort, but it's not
00:57:33.140 possible.
00:57:33.960 Yeah.
00:57:34.260 It's not possible to have the result without the turmoil.
00:57:37.640 And I think you're a living, breathing, walking example of this.
00:57:41.560 And that's why I wanted to have you on the podcast today.
00:57:44.040 Thanks.
00:57:44.800 Yeah.
00:57:45.020 I think there's a lot, well, I know there's a lot of truth to that.
00:57:47.560 Um, the thing that I wish I knew, right.
00:57:50.200 Looking back at it is just the, just the awareness, you know, just the, the awareness of what can
00:57:57.140 happen when you keep pushing yourself.
00:57:59.100 Right.
00:57:59.420 And like, even a couple of weeks ago, I got to the point where I was dealing with a lot
00:58:04.320 of stressed out and I was just pushing, right.
00:58:06.240 Pushing hard, hard, hard.
00:58:07.260 And I, I saw myself not slipping to where I was before, but you know, I saw like a little
00:58:13.000 warning sign where like, I got short tempered with my son when he just asked me a normal
00:58:17.260 question.
00:58:17.580 I was like, what am I doing?
00:58:18.920 You know?
00:58:19.500 So I took a step back and I was like, all right, like, stop, you know, like give yourself
00:58:24.500 a breather.
00:58:25.280 Let's, let's recalibrate, recage.
00:58:27.140 So the awareness like is awesome.
00:58:30.000 I wish I had it in retrospect before, but that's, that's been the coolest thing about
00:58:34.580 going through something like that.
00:58:37.220 You know, it was just, you kind of learn like, all right, you're not invincible, you
00:58:41.560 know, like you do have limits and it's okay.
00:58:44.740 But even though before I wouldn't have thought it was okay, I would have been like buck up
00:58:48.920 dude, you know, but.
00:58:51.920 And both have validity.
00:58:53.720 Yeah.
00:58:54.100 You know, sometimes it is buck up.
00:58:56.800 Yeah.
00:58:57.100 And other times it's, let's figure out what's going on.
00:58:59.560 Right.
00:59:00.260 Well, we're going to have you back on the podcast.
00:59:02.180 You've got a book coming out called stigma in October, I believe.
00:59:06.680 Um, I'd love to have you back out in September, August, like somewhere in there to talk about,
00:59:13.280 um, what you've got going on in the book and everything else.
00:59:17.380 But in the meantime, let us know how to connect with you, learn more about what you're doing
00:59:21.180 and, uh, tap into some of the advice that you offer.
00:59:25.160 Awesome.
00:59:25.660 I appreciate it.
00:59:26.380 Um, so I, I got a website and it's brand new, so it's, it's just getting rolled out.
00:59:32.800 I know it's brand new.
00:59:33.300 Cause I tried to figure out what your website was and I was like, damn, where's this guy
00:59:36.840 at?
00:59:37.420 Yeah.
00:59:37.920 So let's, let's hear it and then we'll put it on the grid for you.
00:59:40.140 Since I was this quiet professional, you know, now I'm going out there, but, um, it's the
00:59:44.240 nicokelly.com very original.
00:59:46.340 Um, but there's links to Instagram and YouTube on there as well.
00:59:49.380 So I got a YouTube channel where I'm just sharing my experience through it, um, and kind
00:59:54.220 of lessons learned on it and yeah, how I can, how other people can hopefully avoid what
00:59:59.700 I went through at least to the same extent that I went through.
01:00:02.700 Um, and then obviously, like you said, the book is coming out in October and that's, that's
01:00:08.100 really, um, kind of the spearhead for all this is just throwing it all out there.
01:00:13.340 Right.
01:00:13.860 And being raw and just telling people like being a man isn't always, doesn't always mean you're
01:00:19.640 perfect.
01:00:20.040 You know, like you're trying and you're trying to succeed and moving the needle is really
01:00:25.900 what's important.
01:00:26.560 Right.
01:00:27.020 And striving for success and striving to get better every day.
01:00:29.700 But that's, it doesn't happen every day, I guess.
01:00:33.720 Like it's a journey.
01:00:35.020 Yeah.
01:00:35.620 So, yeah.
01:00:36.340 So yeah, that's it.
01:00:37.180 Um, we'll sync it all up.
01:00:38.300 Thank you.
01:00:38.700 I appreciate it.
01:00:39.180 And we'll have you back out in the fall.
01:00:40.880 We'll have you connect with us.
01:00:42.580 Guys, go connect with Nick, learn more about what he's doing.
01:00:45.280 He's got a book coming out in the fall that in October that you guys are going to want
01:00:48.580 to be aware of.
01:00:49.700 Um, I'm very much looking forward to getting a copy of that so I can read it.
01:00:53.640 Um, and maybe we even make it a book for our iron council guys, which is our exclusive
01:00:58.340 brotherhood.
01:00:58.860 A lot of guys are struggling with this stuff and I want to be able to serve them.
01:01:02.220 And I think you're doing good work.
01:01:03.340 Yeah, I appreciate you being on the podcast today.
01:01:05.420 No, thank you.
01:01:06.040 And thanks again for the opportunity, Ryan.
01:01:07.380 This was awesome.
01:01:10.680 Gentlemen, there you go.
01:01:11.440 My conversation with Nick O'Kelly.
01:01:13.740 We will be back, uh, next.
01:01:16.680 I was going to say next week or later this week for an AMA or Friday field notes.
01:01:21.600 But I also want to tell you, I'm going to have Nick back on, uh, in the fall when he
01:01:25.700 comes out with his book stigma, because this is one that keeps getting brought up over and
01:01:30.640 over and over and over again.
01:01:32.260 So we're going to have him back on to talk about the specific strategies that you can
01:01:36.380 employ to overcome depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation.
01:01:41.360 So make sure you subscribe.
01:01:44.060 Uh, I want you to catch that episode among the other episodes that we do, uh, check out
01:01:49.700 our battle ready program at order of man.com slash battle ready.
01:01:53.260 And otherwise connect with us on the gram and Facebook and Twitter, all at Ryan Mickler,
01:01:59.900 M I C H L E R. 0.99
01:02:02.040 All right, guys, we will also be back tomorrow for our ask me anything until then go out there,
01:02:07.760 take action and become the man you are meant to be.
01:02:14.820 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.
01:02:17.720 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.
01:02:21.540 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.