NICK O'KELLY ｜ Confronting the Stigma of Men's Mental Health
Episode Stats
Summary
Nick O'Kelly is a former Green Beret and combat veteran who served with the U.S. Army Special Forces. He is an expert in unconventional warfare and leadership under pressure. In this episode, Nick talks about the challenges he faced in service and how he overcame them.
Transcript
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Men, we're all well aware of the stigma associated with men's mental health.
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Men are often told overtly or covertly to just be quiet, do your job, and get your work done.
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And while there is certainly some validity to us getting the job done when people are relying on us,
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it's also valid to consider the mental and emotional battles we often fight as men.
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And today I'm joined by retired Green Beret, Nick O'Kelly, to talk about his time in service
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and the mental and emotional anguish he faced and what he's done to overcome the challenges of anxiety, depression, and even suicidal ideation.
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We talk about how a man begins to confront these issues, finding the balance between bearing down and getting the help we need,
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how to find teams and avenues of support without feeling weak, and how to confront the stigma,
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even though we all deal with it, of men's mental health.
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You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest.
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Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
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When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.
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You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.
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This is who you will become at the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
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Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Men podcast. I'm talking about men's mental health today.
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This is a conversation that needs to be had continually.
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It's one that a lot of men are dealing with. It's one that I've dealt with personally.
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I address that in the podcast, and it's one that I think will help serve you regardless of where you're at with your own personal mental health.
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All right, guys, let me introduce you to my guest.
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He is an expert in unconventional warfare and leadership under pressure.
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Lots of experience, years of experience serving in the U.S. Army Special Forces.
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He's operated in some of the most challenging environments around the world.
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His mission now, though, is to equip men with the mindset, discipline, and resilience
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forged through his very, very elite and specific military service.
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In this episode, Nick and I talk about hard-earned lessons on mental toughness,
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leading through chaos, building men of character in a world that desperately,
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So if you're ready for a raw, no excuses conversation about strength, service,
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depression, anxiety, even suicide, and living with purpose, this one is for you.
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You know, there seems to be a real stigma around men's mental health,
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There's a lot of pleasantries and niceties that we use that I think soften the way that
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But I've seen a lot of guys really struggle with trying to shore up their struggles mentally
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Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to pride as well, you know, and kind of that underlying
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notion that as men, we got to be strong, right?
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And put on that armor all the time and always like be the protector and be the one that's
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So I think there's a lot of like deep rooted things that go along with the stigma.
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It's not as simple as just, you know, there's a stigma out there and there is, but it's more
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like individual based as well and how people react to it.
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But, you know, but the only question I have on that and the thing that I get hung up on
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is, you know, you talk about the pride that gets in the way and I agree with that.
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But also there's a reason that we as men generally relative to our female counterparts have that,
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Because as a Green Beret, a helicopter pilot, you know, there's a time to get shit done
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and there's a time to maybe sit in the way that you feel.
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My concern is, especially in the relative ease of modernity, that too many men are advocating
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for embracing all of these vulnerabilities and softness and niceties and pleasantries and feel good.
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And at some point we as men have to get shit done.
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Like you have a mission, you have a job, right?
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Like you can't have a mission coming up and say, no, I don't feel good or I don't feel like
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And the word that you don't like is vulnerability, but like, I think there's a time and place for
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But I just don't think that would be the time and place, right?
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Like when you need to get shit done, that's when it's, it's time to buckle down.
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It's time to stand up and say, all right, like, yeah, sure.
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I have these problems, but I can overcome them and I can push through.
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Um, but the problem that I see is it becomes detrimental when it's especially related to
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I was going a million miles an hour and I didn't give myself permission to kind of look at what
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And more of it to that word vulnerability, it was more, I was scared to even like talk
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So that's kind of what I mean when I say vulnerability is like just giving yourself permission to even
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Yeah, I debate with people online about this just about every day.
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It means exposing yourself or your neck to an enemy.
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The Brené Browns of the world have taken the word, bastardized it, and made it mean something
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But I think it means, it's a semantical debate, I think is what it is.
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Vulnerability in the true sense of the word means you're essentially giving yourself up, right?
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You're vulnerable to something taking over you, right?
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Something having dominance over you, I guess, in a way.
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Honesty and transparency is probably a better word, probably better words to rephrase that than vulnerability.
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So what kind of helicopter were you guys flying?
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And then at about the three-year mark on a team, I kind of looked at the senior individuals in my unit, man, and it was more of a family decision for me.
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My son was just born, and I looked at it, and I saw the guys who had been in for 20 years, and they just did not have a family life.
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They 100% prioritized the job over family, which to some extent you have to.
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To some extent, you're gone all the time, and the job does take precedence in some situations.
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But I just looked at it, and I said, man, I don't want to end up like that.
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I don't want to be that dad that, like, barely knows his kids or his kids, you know, neglect him because he gave his whole life to Special Forces.
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So that's when I dropped my flight packet and decided to go aviation.
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I ended up flying Blackhawks UH-60s first, and then did an Afghan rotation, and then came back and went and assessed for the 160th Special Operations Aviation.
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I want to get really serious on this conversation.
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Barring, so, okay, so when you were thinking about your Ranger tab, you were married, you had kids, or no?
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So, well, Greenberg, so when I was going through the Q course, the Special Forces Q course, you mean?
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I actually got married the day after I graduated the Special Forces Q course.
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So during the Q course, I was single, but for the three years on an ODA, on a team, then I was married, and then my son was born about two years after joining, after going to my Special Forces team.
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And so, I'm very curious about the conversation you had with your wife, because I don't want to put words in your mouth.
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Did you have ambitions of taking your career further, and you decided not to because of those conversations?
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Like, I think you probably, you sound like a person, a man who has some values and principles, knows what he wants, but there's also some conflict for every man.
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Like, what was that struggle like, and what were the conversations you had with your wife?
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I did, but some of it was because of how she, I guess, reacted to the constant deployments constantly being gone.
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Like, it was, there are some women out there that, you know, can be super independent and just take it and run with it.
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And she, she relies on me a lot, which, I mean, I love, but that was part of the decision for sure, was I looked at it and I was like, man, this is stressing her out to the core.
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Like, and I don't know if I want to continue, continuously put her through something like that.
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Also, part of it was, before I even joined, before I even enlisted in the Army, I was looking to go aviation.
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So, there's a high school to flight school program that you can basically jump off the street and go fly a helicopter.
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It was just a long process to get in, so I ended up enlisting.
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So, that was always in the back of my mind as well, was, hey, like, I want to fly helicopters.
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But, to be honest, we didn't have, she was very supportive.
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So, it wasn't like a, it wasn't a give or take.
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It wasn't like she was pushing back on the decision.
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She was basically like, hey, if this is what you want to do, and these are the reasons, let's do it.
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So, there wasn't a lot of tension, I guess, in that decision.
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Okay, so, I'm diving into questions I don't think you really anticipated on answering.
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But these are the real questions that men have.
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And it sounds like, based on what you're saying, she probably would have followed you, regardless of what decision that you made.
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We can dive into that a little bit, because that's important.
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Do you feel like you might have regrets because you didn't pursue what you wanted to pursue?
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The only regret that I have is looking at something, at the life change that I made with rose-colored glasses.
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Right, because I went into aviation thinking that it would be essentially a lateral move from Special Forces.
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Like, I still had the expectations that I would be treated like a big boy in the military, you know, like in Special Forces.
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Yeah, once you get to that point, you're, you know, you're on an ODA, you're on a team, you're fairly competent and confident.
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So, A-Team, you know, like the A-Team movie, that's kind of where it's from.
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So, yeah, so I was expecting to go and essentially have a lateral cultural move, if that makes sense.
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And then when I got to the aviation world, I was basically starting from scratch.
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Even though I became a warrant officer, I felt like a private again, and I was treated like a private again.
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So, that was my one regret was, like, not reaching out to people maybe that had done it before or something like that and having a little more expectation management.
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Because if, I'm sure we'll get into it, but that's what, that's what ended up leading to some of the depression and mental health problems was, was that, just that, the expectation management and kind of starting over in a way, which I was not expecting.
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But other than that, I've, I do not have any regrets.
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Like, I loved where I eventually ended up as an aviator.
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Do you, well, I want to get into the expectation management.
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You're talking about a culture, one culture of your life.
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You're not talking about another culture, which is husband, father.
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Do you think that she has regrets maybe wondering if you sacrificed for her?
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I don't think so, because if she would have pushed me for that decision, then yes.
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But I think the, I think the fact that I was stoked about it, and there was no doubt in my mind, that's, that's what I wanted to do.
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I don't think it would, I don't think she would view it that way.
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Because it was, it was 100%, like, I want to do this.
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It wasn't like, it wasn't really, like, blaming her, you know.
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That was just a factor in the, in the decision.
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So, I don't, I don't think she would have regrets about it now.
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And I'm not trying to throw you under the bus or her by any means.
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But these are real issues that men are dealing with.
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Like, I don't know if they're dealing with necessarily the same situation you guys are, but I, I know that there's guys who are thinking to themselves, man, I really want to take this job in Nebraska.
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Nebraska, we live in Texas and, and we can go take this job in Nebraska.
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And, and their wife is like, well, my whole family's in Texas.
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I'm really curious about this dynamic and the conversations that you guys have had.
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And if you had any sort of contention or animosity between you two, as you were figuring out what is the best route for not only you, but her and the family that you guys have created.
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And yeah, that's a, that's a really good question.
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And another, another curve ball in that too, that I didn't mention was she was active duty army too.
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So part of that decision also was like, can you even follow me to Fort Rucker, Alabama, where we're going?
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You know, like, can you even get orders to there or are we going to be separated for a time?
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And that was obviously another like curve ball in it.
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Luckily she was able to get to, she went to Fort Benning for a year.
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So it was one of those things where I had a cheap apartment and drove there on weekends, you know, for about, about, yeah, about nine months ish.
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But then she eventually got orders to Fort Rucker and came with me.
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And fortunately she, like you said, like she is amazing at just saying, okay, like I'm going to follow you, right?
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Like I'm going to follow you to what we're doing and we're going to figure it out and we're going to make the most of it.
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So it did end up working out, but yeah, that's, I mean, that's a deep question.
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And I don't, I think the biggest, my biggest like feedback on that, and it's what I alluded to earlier is having the proper like expectation management, right?
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Because it's so easy to, when one person's on one side of the fence, the other person's on the other to try to just make everything seem like it's going to be perfect when it's not reality.
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Right. And then you get there and it's like, man, you said all these things and now we're here and it's not like that, you know?
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And then obviously that's going to create even more tension and yeah.
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So your wife is a soldier. Is she still in the military?
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No, she actually got out. She did four years. So she got out in 2016 and then I continued serving.
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So she's probably got a lot of masculine energy, I imagine about her.
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Like wrap my head around that because that, that is foreign to me.
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I don't know if you know, but I was the national guard. I did a deployment to Iraq in 05, 06.
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She grew up in a military family. So her, her dad was a, literally did like 38 years in the army.
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Um, just retired recently, but she, um, she mostly did, she mostly joined the army to, well, one, to get college paid for.
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And then two, to kind of appease her dad in a way, I guess. I know, I know like.
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Yeah. It's really what it is. Like her sister went to West Point, you know, so they were a big West Point family and she just had kind of that pressure to join the army.
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But she did, she went to East Carolina university, did ROTC. Um, and she ended up being a signal officer.
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So not combat, obviously not combat arms because women back then couldn't, but, um, she was very much the, I don't buy into the army kind of mentality.
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Like I'm doing this cause I have to, but I'm not, she didn't really, I don't know how to say it better.
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Like she performed well, did her job well, was physically fit and everything, but she wasn't like the, the women who would go shoot guns on the weekend.
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You know, she would rather just have a normal life and that kind of be her job.
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So, so yeah, she never really embraced the full, like I'm a, I'm a soldier.
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I only asked that because I know you have the polarities between masculinity and femininity.
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So if, you know, you're obviously you're, you're masculine, you're in a masculine position.
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Um, and then if she was too, I was curious about the dichotomy and what the relationship was like, not only from how you guys felt about each other, but how that actually worked in reality with two masculine energies.
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It was a lot more, uh, I mean, to some extent, you know, it was almost like she was just a military spouse, right?
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Like she, and that had a job on base type of thing.
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Cause she was still, you know, serving our country and doing awesome things.
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It's like, Hey, you're the, you're the one doing like the deployments and I'm the one going, you know, going on the trips and doing deployments and shooting guns and doing all the cool stuff.
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And she was the, yeah, she was going to work type of thing.
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She would drop the kids off at daycare while I was gone, you know.
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Um, in this conversation, we're talking a lot about the issues that men are facing on a daily basis.
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Specifically with the mental and emotional battles that were tasked with fighting, uh, one concern among many that I have for men is how many of them are wandering around aimlessly without purpose or conviction in life.
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And I can't help but think that this is a driving cause of anxiety, depression, and even suicide in men.
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And that's part of the reason that our vision exercise inside of our free battle ready program is so crucial.
00:22:10.240
Um, the first step to creating your battle plan is a vision for the future.
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And when you sign up for this free program, we'll teach you all the ins and outs of creating your own compelling vision.
00:22:26.980
You can do that at order of man.com slash battle ready.
00:22:39.840
Well, I mean, to be, to be fair, like just because she's not doing the cool military shit doesn't mean that she's not doing.
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No, I don't think you do, but I just want to make sure that we're clear about it is, um, that just because, well, frankly, women, well, I always say this, like if I, if I meet you or meet a friend, I'm like, does your wife work outside of the home?
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Cause if she's, if she's not working outside of the home, that does not mean she's not working.
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Maybe even more so than I personally am willing to.
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I would not, I would not want to be a stay at home dad and have all those responsibilities.
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Um, explain that theory, explain that concept to me and how you guys work through that, especially I'll add this caveat, especially when you guys don't have the same expectations.
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Um, and a lot of that, a lot of the expect, so expectation management, at least when I,
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I put myself back in time to that situation, I was, all I was looking at was the positives.
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I didn't do like a good pro cons list, you know, and go through the actual exercise of saying, okay, like, what is this going to look like long-term other than, Hey, this is going to put me in a better financial situation long-term.
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Cause I'll, I'm going from enlisted to warrant officer.
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So that was about it was, Hey, long-term I'm going to put myself in a better financial position.
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And also potentially like be a CW four CW five and retire as a, you know, chief foreign officer type of thing.
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So the expectations for me were not realistic, right?
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Like they were, it was everything good that I was looking forward to none of the negatives.
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And another thing was I also made this decision because I was looking at not being gone as much for my family.
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Like I was looking at that decision as like, okay, like my life's going to chill out, but then I get to aviation and I get to my first unit.
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And two months later, I go on a nine month deployment to Afghanistan and I'm like, okay, well, there goes that, you know?
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So it was, so it was a lot of those, what year was that?
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So it was a lot, it was a lot of those, just the expectations were not practical.
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They were, they were, um, yeah, like I said before, rose colored, you know, it wasn't, I didn't look at the cons seriously, I guess.
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With enough weight and gravity, not that I looking back, not, not that I wouldn't do the same thing,
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Was she willing to remind you of those cons and did you accept that or did you not listen to that?
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Um, thinking back, I don't remember there being much tension about that or her being like,
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I think she might've honestly been on board in the same regard I was right.
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With having the, I think she fell into the same trap to some extent.
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So I don't think it was her saying, Hey, well, what about this, this, this?
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I think it was her more being like, okay, yeah, let's do it.
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I'm going to trust you and listen to you on this.
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So I think we both kind of had the, the improper expectations going into it.
00:26:34.340
Um, the easy answer to that is I didn't give her any reason not to, um, the probably deeper
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rooted answer to that is she, her upbringing was very traditional, right?
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Her mom cooked all the meals, you know, her dad would take care of everything.
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And it was very much a, Hey, the man leads the family type of, um, upbringing for her.
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And I, that carried forward and she, she very much like follows me and wants me to be the
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leader in the family, even something as stupid as, Hey, where are we going to go to dinner?
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Or like what movie are we going to watch tonight?
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Like she doesn't even want to make that decision.
00:27:26.340
And there are times obviously where she wants to make decisions, but like she would rather
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have me say, Hey, this is what we're going to do.
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And her just say, okay, or no, I don't feel like that pick something else.
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And then I'm still making the decision, but at least, you know, her input is felt.
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So that's kind of, I think that's why I think it was from her upbringing.
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I think it was just embedded in her that the man of the family leads the house and you trust
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them unless, you know, they give you a reason not to.
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So some of it, obviously it was, some of it was earned, right?
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Because I just hadn't given her a reason not to.
00:28:02.440
Um, and yeah, that's a tough question to answer.
00:28:06.900
And that's a really good question, but that's about as deep as I can get, I guess, right
00:28:13.920
Well, I'm, I mean, I think the dynamic that you and your wife have, how long you guys
00:28:20.940
I think the dynamic that you guys have is one that men would, more men would like.
00:28:26.940
Where you lead as the man and she follows as the woman.
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And that doesn't mean that either one of your roles are less than or more than, um, I can
00:28:38.120
That's the dynamic that I personally like myself.
00:28:41.460
She sounds like an incredible woman where she's willing to acknowledge that you can
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lead, but it also sounds like you're a pretty incredible man who are worthy of her following
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You need a woman who's willing to allow her man to lead.
00:29:00.300
And then you need a man who is worthy of a woman following.
00:29:05.180
So it sounds like both of you guys are knocking this out of the park.
00:29:08.500
We're getting, I mean, we're not perfect, but yes, it's like, yeah, as an overall kind
00:29:16.680
Like we're, we're extremely blessed because honestly it it's, we haven't had to work extremely
00:29:25.420
Like, obviously there's still relationship things that you have to work on, but that
00:29:31.120
And I do attribute a lot of it to our, both of our upbringings, right?
00:29:34.740
Like I was raised in a Christian household and it was just kind of Christian values were
00:29:39.760
To lead, lead as a man, lead as, and then, yeah, she, she, as I said, kind of had that ingrained
00:29:50.200
It sounds like you're a man who makes good decisions.
00:29:59.420
What if you weren't a man who make, who made good decisions?
00:30:05.180
Uh, would you be okay with letting her lead or that would be really hard to navigate that?
00:30:15.900
But has there any, has there ever been a time where you've had a hard time making decisions?
00:30:25.000
Nothing, um, monumental, but there have been times.
00:30:32.600
So, um, when I got in the military, I'm now I'm a financial planner and in a financial planning
00:30:37.100
business, but I got a, a job offer to go work for a pretty prominent firm, um, in, in another
00:30:45.600
So it was like, it would have been a big change for us.
00:30:48.120
And my initial reaction was, this is an incredible opportunity.
00:30:56.000
And that was one of those, that was one of those times where I needed her to step in and
00:31:04.920
You got this opportunity, but so for a little more context, I own my own firm.
00:31:09.220
So it's, it was one of those things that I'm going through the growing pains of building
00:31:15.880
And then there's this established business that I could plug and play into and kind of,
00:31:22.580
And she had to look at me and say, Hey, Nick, like, this is an awesome opportunity, but do
00:31:31.020
Do you not think you can get there right in a couple of years or whatever?
00:31:34.000
Like, yeah, it's going to take more time, but like you have, she was, yeah.
00:31:39.700
So she had to be the voice and reason in that because without her, I'd probably, I probably
00:31:43.940
would have done it because I was, I did the whole pro cons list.
00:31:47.220
And the pros in my mind were outweighing the cons, but that was the X factor that I didn't
00:31:52.720
even think about was my, my future ability to become that right.
00:31:59.780
So, so yeah, that was, that, that's a good example that I can think of off the top of
00:32:03.760
my head is when she had to step in and say, Hey, like, and we're not moving again.
00:32:13.520
But, but yeah, she had to step in and be the voice of reason in that.
00:32:16.360
And I mean, honestly make, make the final decision.
00:32:22.080
I mean, that's, uh, that's hard, you know, based on the dichotomy that you guys are talking
00:32:26.140
about and the polarity between masculine and feminine, but it sounds like you guys both
00:32:36.560
Um, I want to move a little bit more into the mental and emotional toils of not only the
00:32:45.360
work that you did in, in your military service, but also as a financial advisor, I don't know
00:32:50.720
if you know, but you and I probably walk similar paths, maybe a few years behind each other.
00:33:01.060
I grew my business over nine years and eventually moved into this.
00:33:03.800
So I understand what it's like to try to grow a business in the, in the financial world.
00:33:10.660
And by the way, in 2008, 2009, the worst time in the history of mankind that you could have
00:33:20.340
It was really rough to try to convince her and, and show her why this was a good thing,
00:33:28.280
And then maybe dealing with some feelings of inadequacy or doubt or concern.
00:33:35.000
Big time, especially the, and I've heard you talk about it, the imposter syndrome, right?
00:33:38.940
Because here I am this, like, I have a awesome resume, but it's not applicable, right?
00:33:45.140
And I mean, some of it's transferable, but not apples to apples.
00:33:48.240
Um, so I go in and I see all these guys who are crushing it in the financial industry.
00:33:53.080
And the first year I'm like, I can't even, you know, I could get a couple of clients,
00:33:57.520
but it's like, man, how am I going to sustain this?
00:34:00.140
And how am I going to actually like get people to trust me?
00:34:06.080
It was getting over that imposter syndrome of, of, you know, I'm new in this industry.
00:34:12.100
Like, how am I supposed to, to show people that they can trust me with it, with their money,
00:34:17.640
you know, cause it's a really important thing to trust, um, or to put in somebody else's
00:34:22.960
So that was the hardest thing for me was the imposter syndrome.
00:34:27.200
And then also what, what kind of was a trickle effect of that was me having to go from being
00:34:34.640
in this quiet, professional military environment to now I have to be, I have to sell, right?
00:34:39.440
I have to sell myself and I have to put myself out there to the world.
00:34:44.040
And I'm not comfortable, wasn't comfortable talking about myself or even talking about,
00:34:51.100
Like I just didn't, I was always taught to keep that quiet, right.
00:34:54.800
So those are the two biggest hurdles for me for sure.
00:34:57.940
And I would say now I'm finally at the point where I'm feeling confident in what I'm doing.
00:35:02.840
You know, I, I, I see the value in what I'm doing and now I'm finally getting to that
00:35:09.660
Well, I got to tell you, man, um, people might not see this normally and I would not
00:35:16.100
normally bring this up, but you reached out to me with some balls and I, and I got to
00:35:20.300
say that like you, you, you made, I think it was three paragraphs and you're like, Hey,
00:35:36.060
Um, and, and, and literally, bro, at this point I've got thousands and thousands of
00:35:42.840
I get half a dozen requests, but for whatever reason you're stood out and I got to tell you,
00:35:48.800
and I want everybody to know who's listening to this, that you reached out with conviction
00:35:53.760
and clarity, not arrogance, not bravado, not ego, but I could tell that this is a guy
00:36:02.700
Um, and I got to tell you, man, I really respected that about you.
00:36:07.280
I really appreciate that because to be honest, it felt like a long shot.
00:36:13.960
You know, it was one of those things that you don't, if you don't try, you're not going
00:36:20.640
Um, and it, like I said, it did take me time to get to this point where I was, you know,
00:36:26.140
confident in reaching out to people or in doing things like this.
00:36:32.200
When you were in the throes, cause I know you really dealt with a lot of depression, anxiety.
00:36:37.420
It sounds like based on what you sent me, some suicidal ideation as well.
00:36:41.780
Uh, when you were in the throes of that, and I want to be very clear, I've never experienced
00:36:47.680
I've never been in the position where I felt like taking my life is the best option.
00:36:53.800
Um, I can, I can appreciate that's probably not the right word, but I can, I can understand
00:36:59.240
maybe to a degree where people are coming from when they feel that way.
00:37:09.980
And hopefully, I mean, hopefully it stays that way the rest of your life.
00:37:14.260
Um, but absolutely the, the craziest thing to me is that I was the exact same way.
00:37:22.540
So I had never had any, even thought of mental illness or depression or anything the entire,
00:37:31.480
And then it came on all of a sudden, like it literally was something where I was sitting
00:37:37.060
in, in flight school one day learning about the Blackhawk engine, like nothing, nothing
00:37:44.400
Nothing was like, you know, all right, now you're going to be depressed.
00:37:48.460
And there was nothing really like coming down on my life, at least that I knew at the time.
00:37:56.000
I just had this suicidal ideation, scared the crap out of me.
00:38:00.040
I was, didn't know how to react because, well, one, I had always been at the mindset
00:38:05.620
before that somebody that is depressed or has some sort of mental illness.
00:38:14.500
And I was of the mindset that it was a choice, like, and that it was something that a victim
00:38:18.980
mentality that people chose not to get out of or not to do the things to get out of it.
00:38:24.240
So when it hit me, it was kind of like, how is this happening to me?
00:38:29.860
Like, I have never, I'm, first of all, I've never been a victim in my life.
00:38:35.900
Like I've always just been, all right, all right, this is the task.
00:38:39.920
And if there's roadblocks in the way, I'm going to figure it out.
00:38:44.660
So when it happened to me, um, it consumed me because I was obsessing over the thoughts
00:38:52.340
that were happening to me and obsessing over fixing it.
00:38:55.180
Like, so every time one of those thoughts came into my head, I didn't, I wasn't able to
00:39:02.000
just say, okay, that's weird, you know, and move on.
00:39:04.680
I was sitting in that thought and diagnosing it, trying to figure out one, where it came
00:39:10.940
from and two, how to get rid of it and how to not have it happen again.
00:39:14.660
And the irony in that is it created this thought loop and it created this, I was essentially
00:39:20.480
reinforcing those thoughts by giving them the attention that they, you know, I shouldn't
00:39:27.980
So it was this weird thing where I just, it's just started spiraling and getting worse
00:39:33.960
Um, and yeah, it led me down a really bad path, really dark path.
00:39:37.940
Like it, and I, like I said before, like I have Christian values and I go to church and
00:39:44.800
I mean, I, I'm not the perfect Christian, right?
00:39:47.240
Like I, I slipped my words here and there, but, um, well, I mean, to be honest, everybody
00:39:56.900
Well, there's one, there's one fair enough, but nobody else.
00:39:59.680
Um, but it, it felt like it felt like spiritual warfare, like, so, and this is kind of one
00:40:09.320
of those stigmas that I'm talking about is that even saying that at the time, I felt like
00:40:19.120
Like, I felt like if I told anybody that, that I'd be perceived as crazy and that it would
00:40:25.680
just be like, okay, dude, like you need to go, you know, get chained up somewhere.
00:40:31.580
So that was what kind of kept me captive, if you will, was the fear of the fear of exposing
00:40:40.560
it because I didn't want to be perceived as crazy, especially in a type a military environment,
00:40:46.600
you know, where everybody's just talking crap and you know what I mean?
00:40:50.640
You're not, you're not really comfortable with talking about real things like that, I
00:40:58.260
I mean, not only are you not comfortable, but I've been in therapy sessions where somebody
00:41:04.260
I'm like, I'm not fucking answering that question.
00:41:07.660
Not because I don't want you to know, but because what you'll do to me, if I do answer
00:41:13.660
And especially when you're, well, for my situation, I was a pilot, right?
00:41:17.640
Like, so if I even, if I even have to go on your livelihood is at risk, bro, literally
00:41:24.960
So literally if I have to get on meds, like I, and I was in flight school.
00:41:28.620
So if I go on meds, they're probably kicking me out of flight school and who knows what's
00:41:32.440
like, who knows if I'll be able to go back to SF, if this is the reason I got kicked
00:41:41.040
And it just, it kept me in that darkness for way too long.
00:41:45.720
Like it ended up being a, it ended up being a five-year period that I was not, I wouldn't
00:41:52.120
say suicidal the entire time, but it was a good three years that I was suicidal.
00:41:56.340
And then it ended up morphing into this anxiety, panic attacks and just crazy dizzy spells that
00:42:02.120
essentially my body was telling me like, dude, stop, you know, like you've, you're pushing
00:42:08.760
so hard and you need to like, stop and figure this out.
00:42:13.060
And yeah, I just didn't get myself, I didn't think I could, you know?
00:42:32.460
This is, this is the issue is that if, and God love our female counterparts.
00:42:40.300
If a woman says she's dealing with these things, we rally behind her.
00:42:44.960
If a man says he's dealing with these things, he loses his job.
00:42:57.280
And there are very real consequences to a man saying, hey, I'm dealing with some shit.
00:43:04.720
And then unfortunately, after all that happens, right?
00:43:08.400
That's why we're seeing the, the suicide numbers, you know, still creep up, even though
00:43:19.860
So, um, in flight school, I actually went to the one day I was driving home and I was just
00:43:26.300
terrified to go home and I stopped at the chaplain's office, went to the chaplain and
00:43:39.120
So either go home and potentially take my life.
00:43:44.640
Cause that was the safest place that I could go.
00:43:46.540
And I was not going to go to a behavioral health clinic on a military base.
00:43:54.700
So I go to the chaplain and tell him what's going on and guess what he has to do.
00:44:02.280
So he takes, drives me to behavioral health clinic.
00:44:05.680
But the craziest thing is I fill out this stupid suicide, not stupid, sorry, but the
00:44:16.620
It felt stupid to me, but I understand the intent is not stupid.
00:44:22.600
The reality of anybody who's ever had to fill one of those out thinks exactly the way you
00:44:33.080
And then I go back and see somebody and she, I'm not kidding.
00:44:35.800
She takes out the clipboard that I filled out that form on and reads it to me line by
00:44:43.260
So it was basically like, do you have thoughts of harming yourself?
00:44:52.660
You know, I was like, no, I don't want to do it.
00:44:54.360
I'm just having these thoughts and I want to get rid of them.
00:44:58.180
And then she's like, okay, well, based on this, I think it's just a temporary thing that
00:45:02.440
you're going to get through and you can continue training.
00:45:14.480
Clearly, you know, like a freaking former green beret is not going to put himself in
00:45:20.220
that situation if it's not something super serious.
00:45:25.500
Well, and the fact that you went and saw a woman.
00:45:29.760
No, like, no, I want to be really clear about this.
00:45:32.880
The fact that a man is seeing a woman to address his mental health issues.
00:45:42.740
I know we're not supposed to talk about this, but you know what?
00:45:48.780
You needed to come talk with somebody else who was in your same shoes.
00:45:52.900
Not some woman who sits in an office, a climate-controlled office, and sings kumbaya with her clients
00:45:59.420
all day about what you're fucking dealing with.
00:46:02.560
And I know I'm getting fired up about this, but this is an issue, man.
00:46:05.200
No, and it pissed me off, too, because now in my world, right, I go do this.
00:46:15.280
And now, I mean, I don't want, this is going to sound very victim, right?
00:46:18.980
But now it dooms me to not having anywhere to go, right?
00:46:24.060
And now I'm like, all right, shit, like, I got to figure this out on my own.
00:46:27.360
And now I have an extra four years of my life that I'm just trying to get out of this pit, right?
00:46:36.840
Like, I was like, hell no, there's no way I'm going to behavioral health ever again,
00:46:41.620
because what the hell are they going to do for me, you know?
00:46:44.520
Like, what are they going to do that I can't do on my own at this point when I go,
00:46:55.580
And eventually, four years later, I got knee surgery when I was in the 160th, when I was a pilot.
00:47:05.080
I got knee surgery, so that grounded me from flying for nine months.
00:47:08.980
That gave me permission to say, okay, let's figure out what's going on a little bit, right?
00:47:15.560
The consequences of not being able to fly were gone.
00:47:18.320
So that gave me permission to go to the flight surgeon, and I still sugarcoated it.
00:47:23.880
I still said, I didn't say, hey, I had this history of suicidal thoughts.
00:47:28.340
I said, hey, I'm having these dizzy spells, because that's what it was at the time.
00:47:37.560
But eventually, after we did head-to-toe scans and tests and everything, eventually, they were like, all right, you're healthy.
00:47:48.580
Let's try to treat you forward and see what happens.
00:47:50.640
And that is the moment that I started actually getting better, which is crazy.
00:47:56.040
But it literally took five years to get to that point.
00:47:59.120
Yeah, and it was a journey to get there, obviously.
00:48:03.820
And that's how I started digging myself out of the pit.
00:48:06.480
And I'm, like, it was, medication was the thing that gave me the space, right?
00:48:13.320
It wasn't the thing that, like, fixed me and that I'm off it now.
00:48:17.260
So it's clearly not something that, you know, I think is a long-term solution.
00:48:22.420
But it gave me the space to start, like, realizing what the hell was going on with me, if you will, and kind of get out of my own crap.
00:48:39.980
I remember two, I think it was two years ago, maybe three now at this point, I was getting, I was really lightheaded.
00:48:55.480
And I was going into the Jimmy John's drive-thru line because I think one of my kids, maybe my second, was playing, had a baseball game.
00:49:07.620
And I thought, hey, let's just go get Jimmy John's quick, easy.
00:49:28.720
And in a moment of clarity, I thought, I cannot get in this line.
00:49:32.080
Because if I get in this line, there's three or four cars in front of me.
00:49:39.940
And I called my ex and I said, hey, I need to drop the kids off.
00:49:57.720
And they said, you're having an anxiety attack.
00:50:19.500
They're like, yeah, you're having an anxiety attack.
00:50:21.920
And they gave me a drug and it chilled me out for that evening, which admittedly was,
00:50:27.780
But, um, but yeah, man, unless you face it, unless you, I never dealt with that before
00:50:41.340
I was like, there's gotta be something wrong with me physically.
00:50:44.140
Like, there's no way my head is causing this, you know, there's no way, especially because
00:50:49.280
I had, I had a positive outlook on life overall, you know?
00:50:53.400
So it was just something like imbalance, whatever you want to call it.
00:50:58.020
That was just, yeah, but it was weird because my mentality was, has always been like, just
00:51:07.420
And like, if you are in a bad situation, work yourself out of it or do something to get
00:51:12.760
But it just, for some reason that was not working in this situation, I did not have the
00:51:17.300
right answers for, to deal with the mental health crisis, if you will.
00:51:23.040
You know, you started to confront reality, which I did as well.
00:51:26.020
Um, but how did you begin to confront that, deal with it and put yourself on the right
00:51:31.640
So, um, there was a lot of things that I tried during that, the dark ages, what I call them.
00:51:39.480
Well, first I went to Google right after that mental health provider was like, all right,
00:51:51.620
It's not, it won't tell you all the answers, but I tried meditation.
00:52:04.720
Well, to be fair, I was like pretty deep in it, you know?
00:52:07.500
So it was like, it, it needed some more intervention than like a supplement, but I tried religion,
00:52:13.980
which this is where I get into the kind of the spiritual warfare part, because I, I don't
00:52:20.020
think this was like caused by the devil or anything.
00:52:24.040
But I do think it was an advantageous thing that was taken advantage of by, by the devil
00:52:30.160
or whatever, you know, um, you believe, but you're, but you believe in the devil.
00:52:38.600
If that's what you believe, why wasn't it caused by that?
00:52:40.740
So because I think it was a lot of stress that actually caused the collapse, right?
00:52:50.140
I think it was me driving a million miles an hour, like succeeding at every freaking
00:52:55.580
level and making myself like unhealthy in a way to the point of success, because so caveat
00:53:02.780
this, like in flight school, I was through this depression and anxiety, and this is not
00:53:08.080
This is to show people that like, you can be a superstar and still be dealing with something,
00:53:14.360
Like I ended up being the distinguished honor graduate of my flight school class, you know,
00:53:17.880
like there's like 30 West Point officers there, you know what I mean?
00:53:21.700
So it was like, I was able to perform through it and mask it, um, to the point that nobody
00:53:30.400
Nobody did until I finally said something and gave myself permission to, but, um, yeah,
00:53:36.520
I, I, so that's why I don't think it was caused by spiritual things because I think it was a
00:53:44.820
physiological thing that I just chronic stress and just pushed myself to the limits for so
00:53:50.420
Um, but I definitely think it was, well, I know for a fact that it was taken advantage
00:53:55.660
of by that because I would go to church and these anxiety attacks would be magnified the
00:54:04.380
second I walked in the doors and it was like overwhelming, but I was, I still went right.
00:54:11.640
Like I still pushed through and I was still like, this is important for not only for me,
00:54:16.220
but for my family and for my kids to, you know, see the example and stuff.
00:54:19.400
So I, even though I wasn't getting anything out of it, to be fair, like the whole time I
00:54:24.800
was just waiting, hope, praying for it to be over, you know, cause I was just like looking
00:54:31.200
Um, and then I would, you know, I'd listen to worship music in the car or something and
00:54:38.060
And it, every single time I tried to do that, the depression and anxiety and suicidal ideations
00:54:46.140
And it, it pissed me off to be honest, because you read all these scriptures, right.
00:54:52.420
I don't, I can't quote it exactly, but you know, like if you're dealing with anxiety,
00:54:56.480
prayer, you know, bring it up to God and everything.
00:54:58.580
So I'm like, I am, and why is this not working?
00:55:01.600
Um, but the irony of all of that is even through that and even being so pissed off and so mad
00:55:07.820
at God and everything, like now that I'm on the other side of it, I, it was for a reason.
00:55:17.900
I'm so much more like compassionate with my kids and so much, so more patient, I guess.
00:55:25.800
Like, and I see the reality of what can happen if you just bottle stuff up, you know what
00:55:33.920
So, so I do see it as a blessing now, even though it sucked, like luckily I made it through
00:55:39.200
it and I think it was a, a blessing at the end of the day, you know, as, as crappy as
00:55:49.760
And you said something interesting about superstars.
00:55:53.160
Well, you being a superstar, accomplishing all the things that you want to accomplish
00:55:58.700
I actually believe that the people who achieve at the highest levels are probably dealing
00:56:10.420
You know, I'm saying this jokingly, but somebody asked me, it's a weird question, but they asked
00:56:17.820
They said, if I was to be reincarnated as an animal, what would I be?
00:56:23.420
And you know, everybody would be like a lion or a bear, a rattlesnake, a wolf.
00:56:32.400
And I, and I said, I'd want to be a jellyfish or like a hermit crab, you know, something like
00:56:42.740
Like exist in the ocean and chill and just be left alone and no issues.
00:56:46.960
And the, uh, Kip, my cohost, him and I were laughing about it, but, and, and I say that
00:56:53.520
a little bit tongue in cheek, but also a little bit true.
00:56:55.600
The people who succeed at the highest levels are expected to deal with the most weight.
00:57:01.540
You can't, you cannot achieve at the highest levels, the levels that you've achieved within
00:57:07.320
your military service without assuming a whole lot of weight that most of the human population
00:57:22.560
We have these conversations because everybody listening to this wants to achieve at a high
00:57:27.600
And we want the effort or excuse me, we want the result without the effort, but it's not
00:57:34.260
It's not possible to have the result without the turmoil.
00:57:37.640
And I think you're a living, breathing, walking example of this.
00:57:41.560
And that's why I wanted to have you on the podcast today.
00:57:45.020
I think there's a lot, well, I know there's a lot of truth to that.
00:57:50.200
Looking back at it is just the, just the awareness, you know, just the, the awareness of what can
00:57:59.420
And like, even a couple of weeks ago, I got to the point where I was dealing with a lot
00:58:07.260
And I, I saw myself not slipping to where I was before, but you know, I saw like a little
00:58:13.000
warning sign where like, I got short tempered with my son when he just asked me a normal
00:58:19.500
So I took a step back and I was like, all right, like, stop, you know, like give yourself
00:58:30.000
I wish I had it in retrospect before, but that's, that's been the coolest thing about
00:58:37.220
You know, it was just, you kind of learn like, all right, you're not invincible, you
00:58:44.740
But even though before I wouldn't have thought it was okay, I would have been like buck up
00:58:57.100
And other times it's, let's figure out what's going on.
00:59:00.260
Well, we're going to have you back on the podcast.
00:59:02.180
You've got a book coming out called stigma in October, I believe.
00:59:06.680
Um, I'd love to have you back out in September, August, like somewhere in there to talk about,
00:59:13.280
um, what you've got going on in the book and everything else.
00:59:17.380
But in the meantime, let us know how to connect with you, learn more about what you're doing
00:59:21.180
and, uh, tap into some of the advice that you offer.
00:59:26.380
Um, so I, I got a website and it's brand new, so it's, it's just getting rolled out.
00:59:33.300
Cause I tried to figure out what your website was and I was like, damn, where's this guy
00:59:37.920
So let's, let's hear it and then we'll put it on the grid for you.
00:59:40.140
Since I was this quiet professional, you know, now I'm going out there, but, um, it's the
00:59:46.340
Um, but there's links to Instagram and YouTube on there as well.
00:59:49.380
So I got a YouTube channel where I'm just sharing my experience through it, um, and kind
00:59:54.220
of lessons learned on it and yeah, how I can, how other people can hopefully avoid what
00:59:59.700
I went through at least to the same extent that I went through.
01:00:02.700
Um, and then obviously, like you said, the book is coming out in October and that's, that's
01:00:08.100
really, um, kind of the spearhead for all this is just throwing it all out there.
01:00:13.860
And being raw and just telling people like being a man isn't always, doesn't always mean you're
01:00:20.040
You know, like you're trying and you're trying to succeed and moving the needle is really
01:00:27.020
And striving for success and striving to get better every day.
01:00:29.700
But that's, it doesn't happen every day, I guess.
01:00:42.580
Guys, go connect with Nick, learn more about what he's doing.
01:00:45.280
He's got a book coming out in the fall that in October that you guys are going to want
01:00:49.700
Um, I'm very much looking forward to getting a copy of that so I can read it.
01:00:53.640
Um, and maybe we even make it a book for our iron council guys, which is our exclusive
01:00:58.860
A lot of guys are struggling with this stuff and I want to be able to serve them.
01:01:03.340
Yeah, I appreciate you being on the podcast today.
01:01:16.680
I was going to say next week or later this week for an AMA or Friday field notes.
01:01:21.600
But I also want to tell you, I'm going to have Nick back on, uh, in the fall when he
01:01:25.700
comes out with his book stigma, because this is one that keeps getting brought up over and
01:01:32.260
So we're going to have him back on to talk about the specific strategies that you can
01:01:36.380
employ to overcome depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation.
01:01:44.060
Uh, I want you to catch that episode among the other episodes that we do, uh, check out
01:01:49.700
our battle ready program at order of man.com slash battle ready.
01:01:53.260
And otherwise connect with us on the gram and Facebook and Twitter, all at Ryan Mickler,
01:02:02.040
All right, guys, we will also be back tomorrow for our ask me anything until then go out there,
01:02:07.760
take action and become the man you are meant to be.
01:02:14.820
Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.
01:02:17.720
You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.
01:02:21.540
We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.