Order of Man - NICK THOMPSON ｜ Breaking Bad Legacy

00:00:00.000 Whether we acknowledge it or not, there are certain behaviors and mindsets that are etched

00:00:05.900 into our psyche by our fathers.

00:00:08.240 And if we cannot be aware of what those are, we lose any hope of having power over them

00:00:14.060 and charting new paths for ourselves and for our children.

00:00:17.460 Today, I'm joined by Nick Thompson, CEO of The Atlantic and author of the book, The Running

00:00:22.960 Ground, to talk about the legacy his father left and how he is trying to break the string

00:00:28.620 of mindsets that hindered him, not helped him.

00:00:32.560 We talk about how to adapt when plans don't work, the power of the meritocracy, how to

00:00:38.920 overcome the victimhood mentality, creating powerful and healthy outlets and the mantras

00:00:45.220 that have served him well and that he wishes to instill in his children.

00:00:49.320 You're a man of action.

00:00:50.660 You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:54.820 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:59.480 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:04.580 This is your life.

00:01:05.660 This is who you are.

00:01:07.080 This is who you will become.

00:01:08.780 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:14.400 Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast.

00:01:16.700 I am Ryan Michler.

00:01:17.900 I'm the host and the founder, and I'm glad that you're here.

00:01:20.600 We are celebrating this year, our 10-year anniversary, and I just want to tell you that

00:01:25.360 I am very grateful for you tuning in, for you listening, for you applying the information,

00:01:31.700 serving your families, serving your businesses.

00:01:33.780 Lord knows that we need men to step up as men.

00:01:36.840 I was having a conversation just yesterday with my girlfriend, and we were talking about

00:01:40.700 how society tries to make women more like men and make men more like women.

00:01:47.100 And my job is to fight that trend.

00:01:51.020 My job is to rebel against it and help reclaim and restore masculinity to its rightful place

00:01:56.700 and help men step up and use their masculine characteristics for the benefit of themselves

00:02:02.800 and other people in righteous ways.

00:02:04.720 So I've got a great conversation for you today.

00:02:06.940 Just before I do, I also want to say that I'm very grateful for my show sponsors, Montana

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00:03:07.880 Let me introduce you to my guest.

00:03:10.240 Nick Thompson is the CEO of The Atlantic.

00:03:13.020 I'm sure many of you have heard and read and subscribed to The Atlantic, but he's guided

00:03:17.960 this publication through a very, very major digital and business transformation era.

00:03:24.540 And under his leadership, they've grown their subscriber base.

00:03:28.140 They've returned to profitability, which is something they weren't.

00:03:30.880 They've won multiple national magazine awards for excellence.

00:03:34.160 And this is really a reflection of Nick's background as a technology journalist.

00:03:40.300 He was an editor for Wired and the digital head of The New Yorker's website.

00:03:44.840 So he's got a pretty incredible resume.

00:03:47.440 And his career has been defined by taking these editorial standards and also this entrepreneurial

00:03:54.660 mindset of growth, which has really placed him at the forefront of innovation in the space.

00:04:00.020 But he's got a great new book called The Running Ground, A Father, A Son, and The Simplest

00:04:04.800 of Sports.

00:04:05.860 It really outlines and charts his journey as a runner from marathons and ultra marathons

00:04:11.800 to the very interesting and complex relationship with his father.

00:04:17.380 He talks about endurance and discipline and the transformative power of sports.

00:04:22.680 But really, it ties together his own personal stories and narratives about life, his breakthroughs

00:04:28.940 and midlife and a reflection on legacy and purpose, which is what we focus on today.

00:04:34.100 Enjoy.

00:04:36.380 Nick, what's up, man?

00:04:37.180 So great to see you.

00:04:37.960 Thanks for joining me on the podcast.

00:04:40.120 Oh, I'm so happy, Ryan.

00:04:41.040 It's awesome.

00:04:41.540 It's an honor to be with you.

00:04:42.400 This is so cool.

00:04:44.400 It sounds like you just completed the New York marathon this past weekend.

00:04:48.880 So what, two, three days ago?

00:04:49.860 Yes, I did.

00:04:51.820 Today, I was, today is Tuesday.

00:04:53.380 I ran it on Sunday.

00:04:55.440 Nice.

00:04:55.860 How did it, how did it go?

00:04:58.600 Horribly.

00:05:00.220 Oh, I mean, why is that?

00:05:04.240 Well, I mean, like, no, it was great.

00:05:08.320 Like, it's a beautiful race.

00:05:09.320 There are millions of people out there.

00:05:10.600 It feels amazing.

00:05:11.420 Your friends are there.

00:05:12.100 They're cheering you on.

00:05:12.800 There are all these people who are like yelling from the sidelines that I saw my book, but I'm

00:05:16.440 a competitive runner and I have like a specific goal.

00:05:18.860 I got some kind of respiratory infection.

00:05:21.360 Everything went haywire the last two weeks and like start the race.

00:05:24.000 I can barely breathe.

00:05:24.720 And I finish it, you know, 30 minutes slower than I'd hoped.

00:05:28.320 And I, you know, gone into the year, like I'm going to win my age group.

00:05:31.420 I'm going to run 230, 235.

00:05:33.080 I ran a 306, which is totally cool and totally like reasonable, but it didn't feel like I

00:05:38.940 just felt out of my body the whole time, but whatever.

00:05:42.640 Right.

00:05:42.940 I ran the New York marathon.

00:05:44.040 I started, I had continuous forward motion.

00:05:46.480 I finished and it was beautiful.

00:05:49.920 Yeah, that's a, well, the, just the sheer fact that you're running those distances and

00:05:54.480 I know you've run a lot longer distances than those is mind boggling to me what the

00:05:59.620 human body is actually capable of.

00:06:01.260 Not to mention the respiratory illness you were dealing with, but it sounds like you

00:06:05.160 just powered through it.

00:06:07.220 Yeah, powered through it.

00:06:08.220 I mean, like just, you just keep going, you know, like, you know, I started the race.

00:06:12.860 I made up all these specific plans, wrote them out.

00:06:14.780 I was like, I'm going to run the first five miles at six 30 pace.

00:06:17.380 I'm going to evaluate like, what is my heart rate?

00:06:19.200 What is my breathing rate?

00:06:20.700 So I run the first five miles at six 30 pace.

00:06:22.540 And I'm like, you know, I don't know, maybe I can do this.

00:06:25.120 And then I go through 10 miles also at six 30 pace.

00:06:27.240 And I'm like, you know, maybe I can do this.

00:06:29.260 And then I get to like 11 or 12.

00:06:30.460 I'm like, oh boy, this is like, something's really wrong.

00:06:33.780 Like, this is not the way I'm supposed to feel here in this race.

00:06:37.980 And so I'm like, okay, let me dial it back a little bit.

00:06:39.740 And then I was like, okay, this is really not the way I'm supposed to feel.

00:06:43.140 This is like, feels totally different from any marathon I've run in 25 years.

00:06:46.900 I'm just going to, you know, just think about moving forward.

00:06:50.140 I'm going to like concentrate on my mantras, right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot.

00:06:54.200 I'm going to think about my posture.

00:06:55.440 I'm going to think about my hands moving through space.

00:06:57.640 I'm trying to draw energy from the crowds, taking as much nutrition as I can.

00:07:01.380 I'm just going to keep moving forward.

00:07:03.000 And I know that I'll finish and I'll like give encouragement to other runners who are suffering.

00:07:06.940 And that's what I'm going to do today and get through it.

00:07:11.200 Yeah, I, you make it sound so simple, you know, and I've had difficult times and challenging times,

00:07:17.280 but I really think it can be that simple if we make up that decision ahead of time.

00:07:21.420 I like that you're talking about this idea of having mantras, that you have your goals set out and you just know what you're going to accomplish even going into it.

00:07:29.560 Because I've seen so many men who will say, you know, I want to run a marathon or I want to do a Spartan race or I want to do, you know, some grueling physical exercise or event.

00:07:40.020 And they don't have a plan.

00:07:42.160 They just wing it.

00:07:42.940 But it doesn't sound like that is what you do.

00:07:45.260 No, no, I, I, I have a plan.

00:07:49.700 I, uh, you know, I'm, I like literally have a plan with a spreadsheet and it's like, this is the pace.

00:07:56.600 This is the expected heart rate.

00:07:58.000 Right.

00:07:58.180 And when I'm running, I'm looking at basically at three variables.

00:08:00.280 Like, what is the pace?

00:08:01.820 How do I feel?

00:08:02.720 Right.

00:08:02.860 Like, what does my body feel like?

00:08:04.300 What is my heart rate?

00:08:05.260 And you can, you can put other variables in body temperature.

00:08:07.440 You can put power, but like those three are the ones that matter.

00:08:10.160 And I looked at my past marathons.

00:08:12.780 I looked at my past 50 milers.

00:08:14.380 I looked at what my heart rate was at different paces, compared my training for this cycle to the other ones and like, you know, mapped it out.

00:08:21.360 And in a rational world, in a world where like I hadn't gotten sick and nothing had gone wrong, I was going to run, you know, somewhere around 240, a little, maybe a little slower, you know, based on all my previous workouts, maybe, you know, 243, 244.

00:08:35.920 But, you know, things happen.

00:08:37.120 Like part of like getting into a Spartan race or marathon or part of like succeeding is keeping yourself healthy.

00:08:41.620 And, you know, I had a lot going on in the last two weeks and I wasn't able to stay completely healthy.

00:08:48.560 I feel great today, but my, I have, I wear a whoop and like your recovery score, one out of a hundred based on your resting heart rate, respiratory rate.

00:08:55.760 I was like one out of a hundred, two out of a hundred, four out of a hundred.

00:08:59.740 I think I averaged single digits last week, but this morning, 95 out of a hundred.

00:09:05.660 So Ryan, I am ready to just hammer today.

00:09:08.780 Ask me anything.

00:09:11.940 That's good.

00:09:13.160 That's good.

00:09:13.880 So, okay.

00:09:14.380 So what changed then?

00:09:15.480 You know, you said, obviously you're, you're done with the marathon.

00:09:18.160 Maybe there was some levels of stress.

00:09:19.600 I believe whoop takes that into consideration.

00:09:21.840 Cause I used to have one as well.

00:09:23.340 And, uh, I think I only got a 94 or 95, maybe once or twice after a very specific regiment that, that we can talk about maybe, but what changed for you to go from one to two now up to 94, 95, 96.

00:09:39.800 I think, you know, I think there was a lot of, I had a lot of stress.

00:09:44.780 I mean, I had a lot of travel the last two weeks, right?

00:09:46.780 I was like in, there's a play.

00:09:48.960 I was like, I went to, I ran the grand Canyon, which is amazing.

00:09:51.920 Right.

00:09:52.240 So, but I'm like traveling West three weeks ago.

00:09:54.680 I run the grand Canyon.

00:09:55.940 I come back.

00:09:56.620 I'm in New York for a day.

00:09:57.440 And then I go to do an event in Italy.

00:09:58.980 Right.

00:09:59.180 So now I'm going in the other direction.

00:10:00.220 Right.

00:10:00.880 I come back.

00:10:01.560 I'm in New York for a day.

00:10:02.520 And then I'm like in, where was I?

00:10:04.700 And then I went to Georgia and then I went to Nevada.

00:10:06.360 Like, there's a lot of like, I'm working with Atlantic advertisers.

00:10:08.720 I'm doing stuff.

00:10:10.140 Um, and so there was a lot of like, um, time changes.

00:10:14.620 And so that puts stress on your body and you're quite sure when you're going to sleep.

00:10:18.000 And then it was the book coming out.

00:10:19.140 Right.

00:10:19.400 And it's, you know, this is the,

00:10:21.400 it's not just a book.

00:10:24.720 Right.

00:10:24.900 It's like a really personal book that reveals a lot about my father and a lot about myself.

00:10:30.440 And it's the best thing I've ever written.

00:10:33.460 Right.

00:10:33.580 It's the best thing I've ever put into the world.

00:10:35.400 And I know that.

00:10:36.440 Right.

00:10:36.600 I feel really proud of that.

00:10:37.760 And I worked really hard on it, but it's also like, it's so personal that when people

00:10:42.940 don't like it, you feel like, well, wait, they don't like you.

00:10:45.160 Right.

00:10:45.360 And so there's this extra stress that comes in when you put a book like this into the

00:10:49.280 world.

00:10:49.580 And, you know, what are your family members going to think?

00:10:52.180 What are your kids' friends going to say about it?

00:10:53.920 And so I had this other stuff like spinning in my head.

00:10:57.180 So I've got a couple of things spinning.

00:10:58.260 I've got some kind of respiratory infection, traveling like a maniac, stressed about the

00:11:02.320 book.

00:11:02.560 And then like, you know, I'm recording podcasts, I'm on TV, I'm traveling all over the place.

00:11:06.260 So all those things combined just sort of made my marathon prep not so good.

00:11:12.880 My favorite thing, I have this guy, his name is Alan Rubin, who, he's one, he ran like 20

00:11:19.340 consecutive New York marathons at sub 240.

00:11:21.420 I love the guy.

00:11:22.100 He just, he's like, I think he's run 37 consecutive New York marathons and like not trudging, just

00:11:26.660 like working his ass off every time. 0.94

00:11:28.200 And he said to me, he's like, Nick, marathon gods, they just don't like it.

00:11:34.020 If your mind is on anything except the marathon, even if what it's on is promoting a book about

00:11:38.680 the marathon.

00:11:40.900 So that's where I was.

00:11:44.860 Yeah.

00:11:45.080 Well, it sounds like you were able to get it done and you're feeling better.

00:11:48.360 I'm curious what you were talking about when you said your mantras, do you have specific

00:11:51.760 mantras that you use or how do you reframe when maybe you are struggling or hurting or things

00:11:57.420 aren't going to plan?

00:11:58.480 You know, I've seen a lot of guys who they'll have these impeccable plans in place and they

00:12:06.260 work great under the perfect set of circumstances.

00:12:09.040 But as soon as one new variable is introduced, the entire plan crumbles.

00:12:13.240 It's so brittle and fragile that they may have not made a plan to begin with.

00:12:18.520 Yeah.

00:12:19.180 So it's a really, that's a really insightful and important point.

00:12:22.000 Um, on the mantras.

00:12:23.920 So what I do is I, I have one basic one, which is, it's basically a three pattern, right?

00:12:29.780 It's like, if you're a musician, you're like one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two,

00:12:33.420 three.

00:12:33.600 But I'm thinking right foot, left foot, right foot.

00:12:39.660 And you're basically like, you're emphasizing your right foot hitting the ground and then

00:12:44.460 one, two, and then your left foot hitting the ground, one, two.

00:12:46.860 And what that does is it, it allows your mind to kind of shut some things off.

00:12:51.060 Right.

00:12:51.300 So, cause sometimes during the race yesterday, I was like, my God, like everything is so

00:12:55.480 hard.

00:12:55.880 What am I doing?

00:12:56.680 Right.

00:12:56.880 And how is this happening?

00:12:59.520 But instead, like you think you get into the mantra and you're like, okay, now you're

00:13:02.320 just, now you're just going.

00:13:03.260 Right.

00:13:03.440 And then it also, it keeps your body balanced, right.

00:13:07.460 Which is so important, right.

00:13:08.400 When you're like in a race, when you're going badly, like sometimes you start to lean too much

00:13:13.000 on your right side.

00:13:13.720 Well, if you do that, like your left hip's going to be shot. 0.90

00:13:16.060 Right.

00:13:16.300 And like the next mile is going to be even harder.

00:13:18.440 Right.

00:13:18.660 So when you're the sort of the, the equation of running, right.

00:13:24.480 It's like power times efficiency divided by mass.

00:13:27.860 Right.

00:13:28.320 And power is like how much force you can put in the ground, the cadence, which you can

00:13:32.240 spin your legs, all the stuff we work on.

00:13:34.180 Efficiency is like how well you move through space.

00:13:37.040 Right.

00:13:37.820 Given the amount of power you put in, like how are you moving through space?

00:13:40.100 Are you able to move efficiently through space?

00:13:41.760 Are your arms like synchronized?

00:13:43.120 Is your, is your head like this?

00:13:44.580 And so I would, I think about the efficiency of how I move and like trying to make sure

00:13:48.960 that I'm like moving through space as well as possible.

00:13:52.260 So that's like part of the, part of the mantra.

00:13:55.000 And I had another one, which was, I would just say out loud to myself, like continuous

00:13:58.880 forward motion, continuous forward motion.

00:14:00.660 Right.

00:14:00.800 The only thing that matters in this race, it doesn't matter if I run 306, 315, 257.

00:14:05.920 Right.

00:14:06.020 I'm so far off my goal.

00:14:06.920 It doesn't matter.

00:14:08.120 Only thing that matters is that I keep running.

00:14:10.820 Right.

00:14:11.040 And I run all the way through the line.

00:14:13.220 And then I sprint a little bit to finish.

00:14:14.980 That was what I, what I cared about.

00:14:16.460 So I just said to myself over and over, continuous forward motion.

00:14:18.540 Right.

00:14:18.820 And so I'm trying to really meditate and get myself through it.

00:14:23.540 And it was, it was just what you said.

00:14:25.840 Like my plan was broken.

00:14:26.980 Like I had made all these contingencies in my document for what I would do with my horror

00:14:30.100 would be.

00:14:30.540 Not one of them had me running, you know, over 250.

00:14:34.440 Right.

00:14:34.760 And I'm 16 minutes behind that.

00:14:36.260 Right.

00:14:36.340 It's a big difference.

00:14:37.500 Um, so I was, I was like off the charts and I've like literally like off the charts I

00:14:41.620 had made.

00:14:42.380 Um, and so I was just trying to like meditate and keep going.

00:14:45.980 And I remembered, I remember once, you know, the, the race that I just like, I, I ran the

00:14:53.040 New York marathon when I was like, I don't know, it's the first time I ran it.

00:14:55.560 I would have been 28, 27 years old.

00:14:58.940 And I, uh, I drop out of mile 23, part because my knee hurts, but in part because I was like

00:15:05.120 off my goal and I felt kind of embarrassed.

00:15:07.840 I'm like, I hate that.

00:15:09.120 I hate that.

00:15:09.740 I did that.

00:15:10.860 I should just finish.

00:15:11.720 It's not hard to, you get 23, you just go through central park.

00:15:14.900 Then you finish, you take the subway, you go home, you're home like a little bit later.

00:15:17.740 It's all right.

00:15:18.780 I hate that I dropped out of that race still bugs me.

00:15:21.160 So I didn't want to do that again.

00:15:23.040 Well, I think those, you know, sometimes we take those failures and we internalize them

00:15:30.580 and we make them mean more than they actually are.

00:15:33.520 I think we overweight them or over index them and we start to wrap up our identity in that.

00:15:38.160 But I think those failures are there to teach us obviously a lot of lessons and what not

00:15:44.540 to do.

00:15:44.900 And I think for any man, the idea is that make yourself better.

00:15:50.540 Just, just chalk it up and make sure that the next time you don't do what you did the

00:15:55.680 last time and know that you did the best you could with the information and the resources,

00:16:00.600 the mindset you had at that time and get better.

00:16:03.380 That is like a hundred percent it, you know, and I, I've got three boys, you know, we have

00:16:09.540 this funny saying when like, when things like, and two of them play very high level intense

00:16:12.920 soccer for their age groups, just like, you know, traveling all over the place, playing

00:16:15.780 with all kinds of teams and whenever they lose a hard game, right?

00:16:18.980 They lose and like something bad happened or they lost this, like one of them lost this 0.94

00:16:24.580 like ridiculous game. 0.75

00:16:25.560 They're like one of their rivals in New Jersey. 0.98

00:16:27.760 It's all unfair or whatever.

00:16:28.960 And we always say on to Cincinnati, right?

00:16:31.420 Do you know what on to Cincinnati do?

00:16:32.220 Do you get that reference?

00:16:33.140 It's just like, if you're from New England, it's this moment where you're saying, but I

00:16:36.220 don't know the reference.

00:16:37.800 But the reference is this, like, it's, it's, it's really just for new Englanders, but it's

00:16:41.740 universal.

00:16:42.520 So the Patriots, when Bill Belichick, they're in that like amazing Belichick Brady era and

00:16:47.820 they lose the first game of the year, 31 to nothing.

00:16:50.500 Right.

00:16:50.940 I think to maybe to the bills and in the press conference, the there's like 15 questions in a row where

00:16:58.260 they're like, do you think this team is as strong as it needs to be?

00:17:01.120 Like, do you think that Tom Brady has gotten too old?

00:17:03.180 Do you think he can still throw downfield?

00:17:04.480 And every time Belichick's like, uh, you know, we're on to, we're on to Cincinnati.

00:17:08.920 Um, you know, uh, actually we're getting ready for Cincinnati.

00:17:11.860 You know, we're like, do you think like you think you're, and so it's, it's this hilarious

00:17:16.220 thing where all he can say is on to Cincinnati, on to Cincinnati, on to Cincinnati.

00:17:19.320 And what he was doing was he didn't have to do that press conference.

00:17:24.220 He didn't have to say, he wasn't just like humiliating the reporters.

00:17:26.380 He was sending a signal to the team.

00:17:28.080 Like we are going to learn from that failure.

00:17:32.560 We're not going to dwell on that failure.

00:17:34.120 We're not going to overemphasize that failure.

00:17:35.380 We're not going to think of ourselves as losers.

00:17:36.980 What we're going to do is we're going to get ready to play the Bengals and we play them in

00:17:39.960 seven days and we're going to beat them.

00:17:41.160 Right.

00:17:41.320 And that team went like 14 and two and won the Superbowl.

00:17:43.800 And so, um, it's Laura in new England and Belichick's reputation may be a little complicated.

00:17:49.440 We'll leave it outside of this podcast for now, but it was this kind of like amazing.

00:17:53.920 And I remember watching it and thinking it was like football coaches sometimes are kind

00:17:58.640 of goofy and dorky, but it seemed like he was actually at like something pretty deep 0.67

00:18:02.640 and Zen about how to move on from failure. 0.90

00:18:05.040 And so when my kids lose a soccer game, we're like on to Cincinnati.

00:18:09.240 And so I came home, I was like on to Cincinnati, right?

00:18:12.460 Like I'm going to run another marathon.

00:18:14.920 I'm going to run it faster and I'll be ready.

00:18:16.900 And I'll figure out like how to like make myself less vulnerable to respiratory infections.

00:18:22.040 And I'll figure out how to, you know, make sure I'm resting my body.

00:18:25.720 Like I, the day after the race, I made a list of everything that happened in training, right?

00:18:31.140 This is what went wrong here.

00:18:32.280 This is like July and August.

00:18:33.880 I was doing amazingly and I kind of overdid it and I know when I overdid it.

00:18:36.640 Right.

00:18:36.840 And I sort of went through and like, these are the things to learn from do that after every

00:18:40.480 race.

00:18:40.760 And then you go on, you run the next one.

00:18:41.900 Next one will be better.

00:18:43.680 Yeah.

00:18:43.980 I liked that.

00:18:44.380 I had a friend that often, and I haven't talked to him for a long time, but he used

00:18:49.000 to say, therefore what?

00:18:50.320 And it's kind of the same concept.

00:18:51.960 You know, we, we were business partners for a while and I might gripe and moan or complain

00:18:56.180 about something.

00:18:56.840 And he'd always say, therefore what?

00:18:58.980 Which is similar, right?

00:19:00.560 Forward thinking.

00:19:01.280 It's like, okay, you're complaining about it. 0.96

00:19:03.400 Yeah, that sucked. 0.56

00:19:04.280 Therefore what? 0.57

00:19:04.920 Meaning, what are you going to do about it?

00:19:06.700 How are you going to get better?

00:19:07.600 How is this going to improve?

00:19:08.620 What are you going to change?

00:19:09.800 And I think if more men had that mindset, we wouldn't dwell so much on our past failures

00:19:13.940 and look at the opportunities presented before us, even, even recognize them.

00:19:18.120 Cause it's amazing to me how often when you dwell on past failures that you become completely

00:19:24.600 incapable of seeing the opportunities that are lying right in front of you.

00:19:28.720 Yeah.

00:19:30.280 And you like, you just, you, you become, you sort of absorb the failures and you take

00:19:35.800 them into you and, you know, there's just like this, there's wonderful kind of this

00:19:40.980 Zen to you.

00:19:41.500 So my, it's a little bit different, but it just popped in mind and it was, you know,

00:19:46.740 my grandfather, my, uh, my mother's father, right?

00:19:50.000 So he's not really a character in the book, but he was an arms controller and he worked for,

00:19:53.160 um, uh, he worked for every president from FDR to Bush, right?

00:19:58.260 Like long career, amazing career.

00:20:00.240 And he wrote this incredible thing and he wrote, it's like in his diaries, I think it

00:20:03.980 was like in the fifties.

00:20:04.820 And he was like, if you look at the dynamics between the United States and the Soviet Union,

00:20:09.480 and you look at all that has gone wrong, it seems inevitable that there'll be a nuclear

00:20:13.220 war, right?

00:20:13.960 And you just do the odds, right?

00:20:15.180 What are the odds that there'll be a war today?

00:20:17.900 Well, they're less than 50%, but they're not zero.

00:20:19.760 And you multiply it by the number of years in the future, like my life will end in a

00:20:23.700 nuclear catastrophe.

00:20:24.820 And then he said, well, wait a second.

00:20:26.540 That's not the way to look at it, right?

00:20:28.000 The way to look at it is, you know, is there anything I can do today to make the risk of

00:20:34.280 nuclear war less?

00:20:35.720 And can I do that?

00:20:36.800 Okay.

00:20:37.740 And then what if, is there anything I can do tomorrow?

00:20:40.800 Okay.

00:20:41.080 And then what about the day after that?

00:20:42.800 Right.

00:20:43.360 And if you look at it that way, well, then suddenly it seems like, well, maybe you can get

00:20:47.380 through this.

00:20:47.860 Right.

00:20:48.020 And so he had that attitude, like, I'm just going to do whatever I can do every day.

00:20:52.420 You know, obviously nuclear war is very different from all the other things we're talking about,

00:20:55.220 but like, I'm going to do everything I can every day to make the risk be less.

00:20:58.300 And you know what happened?

00:20:59.500 Like he was there when the Berlin Wall came down and, you know, it was an amazing lesson

00:21:05.580 for life of like, you look at the situation that is, and maybe it looks impossible and you

00:21:12.160 just do what you can each day.

00:21:14.300 And then if you do, if you do well today, it makes tomorrow's task a little easier,

00:21:19.120 right?

00:21:19.280 Like you're in a very deep hole, but you've come up a little bit.

00:21:21.860 Right.

00:21:22.680 And that's, I think just a great attitude towards life and a great way to get through

00:21:26.480 setbacks.

00:21:27.180 Like, okay, things are bad, but you know what I'm going to do?

00:21:30.560 I'm going to do the next thing.

00:21:31.760 Right.

00:21:32.020 And after I've done the next thing, right, that doing the next thing, right, will be

00:21:34.780 a little bit easier.

00:21:35.500 And that's just a great, great way to get through this stuff as opposed to, oh my God,

00:21:40.920 things are terrible.

00:21:41.700 Oh my God, it's hard.

00:21:42.640 And like really taking in all that pain and then letting it like slow you down.

00:21:47.880 Man, I'm going to step away from this conversation very quickly.

00:21:51.660 We talked a little bit about a plan in this conversation and nobody plans for divorce.

00:21:56.420 Uh, but when a man does go through divorce, which does happen often, um, sometimes he

00:22:02.060 feels like he's losing everything, uh, his family, his purpose, even in many ways, his

00:22:07.400 identity, I felt that way.

00:22:09.120 Uh, that's why we have a new program, a new course called Divorce Not Death.

00:22:12.800 It really exists to prove that it doesn't have to end that way where you're losing everything.

00:22:18.300 It's a brotherhood of men who really refuse to be defined by the pain that they experience,

00:22:24.580 uh, the regret that they have, just men who are ready to rise from the ashes and rebuild

00:22:30.080 themselves in a stronger, sharper, uh, more grounded than they ever were.

00:22:35.000 So you're going to learn how to take back control of your life through a series of eight

00:22:38.620 modules.

00:22:39.540 You're going to reclaim your confidence.

00:22:41.140 You're going to reclaim your clarity.

00:22:43.100 Uh, you're going to develop a new mission as a man.

00:22:45.360 Um, and it isn't about dwelling in the past.

00:22:47.120 It's about making a new future for yourself.

00:22:49.660 Uh, you'll be confronted by the chaos head on.

00:22:52.700 And, uh, also you're going to be guided by men and work with men who have been there,

00:22:57.100 uh, who are at the same stage you are and much further and fought their way back.

00:23:01.160 So if you've been searching for strength in this really, really challenging and hellish

00:23:06.660 time, um, not as a victim, but as a man who's ready to take charge, then this is where it

00:23:12.180 starts.

00:23:13.000 Your divorce might end that chapter of your life, but you get to decide whether it's the

00:23:16.960 end of your story.

00:23:18.000 So we're doing a preview call tomorrow night, Wednesday, November 5th at 8 PM Eastern.

00:23:23.020 That's Wednesday, November 5th at 8 PM Eastern.

00:23:25.840 And it's an hour long preview call.

00:23:27.480 I'm going to talk about what this course is all about and, uh, invite you to join us again.

00:23:31.420 It's Wednesday, November 5th at 8 PM Eastern.

00:23:34.700 So join us at divorce, not death.com slash preview.

00:23:39.280 That's divorce, not death.com slash preview.

00:23:42.560 Do that right after this conversation.

00:23:44.760 Let's finish it up with Nick.

00:23:48.000 That's a great way.

00:23:49.720 That's a really great way to look.

00:23:50.900 I think it goes back to your mantra of the right foot, left foot, you know, just put

00:23:54.740 the next foot in front of the other and let the chips fall, uh, fall where they may.

00:24:00.420 We often talk about in our organization, what's the next best thing.

00:24:04.460 What's the next best thing that you can do.

00:24:06.340 So regardless of what you did right now, what is, whether it's a, a to-do list, like I'm holding

00:24:10.940 up my planner right here, um, or, you know, running a marathon, what is the next best

00:24:16.440 move, chalk everything else up and do that and have faith that things will work out.

00:24:21.660 You know, you talk about your boys, uh, playing soccer, your two oldest boys playing competitive

00:24:26.060 soccer.

00:24:26.440 It sounds like, uh, it's actually the two youngest boys.

00:24:29.260 Oh, the two older boy.

00:24:30.980 Older boy loves to hike and loves to do all kinds of stuff.

00:24:33.220 It doesn't play soccer.

00:24:33.900 The two younger boys are like deep in it.

00:24:35.640 Like one of them trains harder than I do.

00:24:37.120 So bless these.

00:24:37.740 Do they, uh, do they run long distances?

00:24:41.740 I know they run, uh, short distances over long periods of time playing soccer, but do

00:24:47.180 they run long distances at one period of time?

00:24:49.400 Like you do?

00:24:51.000 Yeah.

00:24:51.520 So the little guy, he's 11.

00:24:53.060 Um, he, uh, he runs great.

00:24:55.200 He did a mile time trial last night and like, like bumped into somebody at the start and like

00:24:59.800 really slowed down and then ran like a six Oh two and came back and was upset that he didn't

00:25:02.980 go under six, but that's blazing for an 11 year old.

00:25:05.820 So no doubt the older guy, he's 15.

00:25:08.460 He's entered 10 mile races with me.

00:25:10.100 He wants to run the New York marathon.

00:25:11.540 He actually made me ask the general counsel of New York road runners, if they would lower

00:25:14.780 the age from 18 to 18 now, 18.

00:25:19.820 And they're like, no, we're not doing that.

00:25:22.240 He said he's going to run the New York marathon with me in three years.

00:25:24.840 Um, but like, they're great.

00:25:26.620 I went, I went weightlifting with the 11 year old this morning.

00:25:28.920 It's like, I want to go to the gym.

00:25:29.960 So I go to the gym and like did box jumps competitions.

00:25:32.340 He crushed me.

00:25:33.020 Um, and, uh, they're just, they're loads of fun and they work really hard at their,

00:25:38.380 at their training and getting better.

00:25:39.680 The older guy is like, he played, um, you know, plays on this club soccer team, got you

00:25:44.280 when, you know, sends people pro it's a great club.

00:25:46.160 It's amazing.

00:25:47.140 And, uh, but he also can do high school sports.

00:25:49.740 And so this winter he's doing swimming just cause he thinks it'll like improve his

00:25:53.440 cardiovascular system without adding wear and tear on the body.

00:25:56.220 It's super smart and sophisticated.

00:25:57.460 Like I didn't tell him to do it.

00:25:59.680 Um, but if he like sticks with it, he's not going to be a good swimmer.

00:26:02.940 He's not going to, it's not like his team's going to win the state championship, but he's

00:26:06.760 going to like make himself stronger without extra wear and tear, which is a really sophisticated

00:26:11.200 way to train at this age.

00:26:14.120 Yeah, it is for that, for that age to be able to think about that.

00:26:17.040 But that's probably a lot of what you instilled, uh, overtly and maybe covertly just through

00:26:23.480 your example.

00:26:24.160 And then seeing that I'm really interested in the legacy component of this, because the

00:26:28.980 way I understand it, your father got you into running.

00:26:31.860 Is that right?

00:26:32.400 When, when you were young, you were what, four or five years old when you were, you started

00:26:35.820 to run.

00:26:36.980 It's so weird.

00:26:38.000 Like, you know, I, when I was like five or six or my dad wasn't an athlete, didn't

00:26:43.820 like, couldn't kick a soccer ball, like did not shoot basketball, but like in the late

00:26:48.600 seventies running, boom, he starts running and he takes me out there.

00:26:52.500 And, uh, I remember running a mile.

00:26:54.700 And then I remember running like around Pine Manor college, which was like two miles from

00:26:58.560 my house.

00:26:59.640 And I think I ran like two or three miles, but that seems nuts for a five or a six year

00:27:03.900 old.

00:27:04.220 And I couldn't be misremembering something from later because he left.

00:27:08.460 Right.

00:27:08.840 So he was only there until I was six.

00:27:11.100 So, you know, he got me going.

00:27:13.560 And I owe him a lot for that.

00:27:17.540 Yeah.

00:27:18.380 Well, it's kind of a, a very checkered story.

00:27:21.500 It sounds like based on what I've, I've read and seen with you and your father, you know,

00:27:25.240 out of the picture at a fairly young age, um, got you into that, which at this point,

00:27:30.260 I'm sure you attribute a lot of your success to him getting you into running.

00:27:34.360 But then it seems like, did you, did you abandon running for a while and then start running

00:27:38.520 again for different reasons?

00:27:40.200 It seems like.

00:27:41.780 Yeah.

00:27:42.240 I mean, it wasn't like, uh, you know, I ran with him and I would, and so he gets, you

00:27:46.060 know, he, um, comes out of the closet, realizes he's gay when I'm like six or seven.

00:27:49.900 And so he leaves, he moves to Washington.

00:27:53.040 His life gets a lot harder, not coming out of the closet in the middle of the AIDS crisis

00:27:58.660 doesn't help, but you know, he also really turns against the world that he had worked

00:28:06.060 his whole life to get into.

00:28:08.120 Um, you know, and he, you know, he spends the first half of his life trying to like climb

00:28:13.000 his way into the American meritocracy and then spends the second half of his life trying

00:28:16.740 to like blow it to pieces.

00:28:17.960 Um, but he, you know, so when I'm between six and 15, like I'll go running with him when

00:28:24.500 I go and see him down in Washington or I spend like a week with him in the summer, travel

00:28:28.300 with him.

00:28:28.540 We always go running, but it wasn't, it wasn't part of my identity.

00:28:31.020 Wasn't something that I thought I was particularly good at or cared a ton about.

00:28:34.920 And then in high school, um, I, I thought I was pretty athletic and I tried out for the

00:28:40.420 varsity basketball team and, uh, I don't make it.

00:28:43.160 So I tried for the JV, definitely make that don't make it trying out for the JV too.

00:28:47.780 Well, I'll be the best.

00:28:48.800 I don't even make the team.

00:28:50.100 I remember going in like going to the gym and they've got like 12 kids made the JV

00:28:54.140 too.

00:28:54.360 I was like, wait, what?

00:28:55.960 So I'm like, cut, cut, cut.

00:28:58.160 Uh, and so I joined the track team and then things click and like, thank God they clicked.

00:29:03.860 It like gave me confidence, which you need as a high school, you know, high school boy

00:29:07.020 and a kid who's like, things aren't working.

00:29:08.560 So that, that was when I got back into the sport.

00:29:12.460 Yeah.

00:29:13.140 And then, um, from there, I mean, really just been involved with that.

00:29:16.820 I, I, I wonder, you know, with, with my kids, you know, I have three boys and a girl

00:29:21.600 with my, my boys in particular, you know, I always want them to like follow in my footsteps

00:29:26.540 and like the same things I like and like the same sports.

00:29:29.500 But as I get older, I realized, you know, some of them are, um, to some degree to varying

00:29:33.420 degrees and the others are just going to like something else.

00:29:36.800 But I think for me, it's just making sure that they incorporate some of the good characteristics

00:29:43.280 I have, which are few and far between, but that's what I'd like them to learn if I got

00:29:46.900 to choose.

00:29:48.640 Yeah.

00:29:49.020 It's, it's really hard.

00:29:49.900 Like you can't like the kids, they might like what you like.

00:29:52.240 They might not like what you want.

00:29:53.460 Um, you know, my view with parenting is whatever they're passionate about, support them.

00:29:59.580 Right.

00:29:59.820 And if they want to like, they want to get good at chess, right.

00:30:02.140 They want to get good at rock climbing, like take them to the gym to go take chess, sign

00:30:05.300 them up for chess classes, like drive them there.

00:30:07.380 You know, I played soccer as a kid, but it wasn't really my thing, but they like decided

00:30:12.060 they loved it.

00:30:12.620 And then during quarantine, we were up in the Catskills.

00:30:15.100 We had a seven of us living up there.

00:30:16.640 My three boys, my wife, me, our grandparents or her parents, we play family soccer every night,

00:30:21.260 like three before, just like out there kicking at these little kids and, uh, they got good.

00:30:27.100 Um, and it's been, it's been wonderful to watch them, but what I do think they get, and I do

00:30:32.500 think they get from their mother and they do get from me is they get a sense of like, they

00:30:38.420 definitely get a sense of that, that discipline matters, that work ethic matters.

00:30:41.520 And that, you know, life is challenging.

00:30:43.820 And then if you try hard, you, things kind of work out better than if you don't.

00:30:47.060 And my oldest son has taken that into his academics and he works, it's just works like

00:30:52.040 a maniac, right?

00:30:53.080 Preps so hard for his debate tournaments, works so hard on his papers.

00:30:55.760 You know, he's, you know, I'll go downstairs at six.

00:30:58.380 He's been up for two hours working.

00:30:59.940 Um, you know, the older boys take it into everything.

00:31:02.340 They take it into their academics.

00:31:03.400 They take it into their work.

00:31:04.420 Like, and I hope, I hope when they're old, they look back and they're like, it was a gift

00:31:07.900 that our parents gave through this example.

00:31:09.580 They didn't put pressure on us, but, um, they set a good example, but who knows?

00:31:13.660 It's like, parenting's, you know, you can screw things up.

00:31:15.740 Like they might have, here's, here's a funny story.

00:31:18.560 So I, uh, you like, you just don't know what's going to happen.

00:31:21.120 So it's quarantine and all the marathons are canceled.

00:31:24.940 And so I'm like, I'm going to run a marathon by myself in prospect park.

00:31:27.880 I'm just going to go out there.

00:31:28.620 I'm going to run 26.2 miles, 13 loops around this little two mile loop.

00:31:32.140 And so I go out there, three, two, one, go.

00:31:35.420 Right.

00:31:35.700 And so I go and I run this marathon.

00:31:37.400 I run it in two hours, 35 minutes by myself. 0.81

00:31:39.980 It's ridiculous, right?

00:31:41.000 Cause I'm like racing a marathon and like everybody else is just out there jogging.

00:31:45.780 And so you just, you've totally changed the experience.

00:31:49.820 You run the New York city marathon.

00:31:50.780 There's like a million people on the sidelines.

00:31:52.080 They're screaming, there's signs, there's jazz bands.

00:31:54.220 You run like a 26.2 race with yourself.

00:31:56.520 And you know, like it's, it, it's a totally different thing.

00:32:00.180 Anyway, so I finished the race and I've like really exhausted myself.

00:32:03.940 I go back home and then I like, I like crossed some red line and I like, I start like

00:32:10.660 convulsing, turning like strange color.

00:32:13.440 So I get on all these blankets, put the space heater next to me.

00:32:17.080 I'm watching a movie with my eldest son.

00:32:18.920 And he's like, look at me.

00:32:19.520 He's like, what did you do?

00:32:20.820 I was like, man, there's like a difference between a 95% effort and 99% effort and a

00:32:26.280 hundred percent effort.

00:32:27.060 I just did a hundred percent effort.

00:32:28.220 And like your body reacts really badly.

00:32:30.320 He's like, so he says to me, he says, dad, you know what I'm learning from this?

00:32:34.000 I was like, what?

00:32:34.480 He's like, I'm never going to be a runner.

00:32:38.000 So that's the older kid.

00:32:39.280 The next day I'm out in Prospect Park and I'm going for a walk, walk meeting with a

00:32:44.500 friend.

00:32:44.780 We're like talking to your stuff.

00:32:45.920 And this little kid in a blue jacket like comes running by me.

00:32:49.280 I'm like, wait, that's my youngest son.

00:32:51.480 I was like, what are you doing?

00:32:53.060 He was like, I came out here cause I wanted to run.

00:32:54.940 Right.

00:32:55.260 And so like clearly the exact same act, the exact same thing has like turned one kid

00:33:00.020 against the sport.

00:33:01.280 And the other little guy is now like into the sport.

00:33:03.820 So just as a parent, you don't, you don't know, right?

00:33:07.160 You do your best.

00:33:07.800 You try your hardest.

00:33:08.640 You think you try, you support, you love, but you can't quite know what your influence

00:33:14.340 on them is.

00:33:15.720 Right.

00:33:16.840 What do you think spells the difference for a young man like, like yourself and literally

00:33:22.560 millions of others who have grown up without a permanent father figure in their lives?

00:33:27.340 What do you think is the difference between somebody who takes that information, even

00:33:32.180 subconsciously and decides to use it as an excuse to sabotage themselves or somebody who

00:33:38.520 decides to take that information and say, you know, I'm going to be a better father.

00:33:42.460 I'm going to do it this way.

00:33:43.960 I'm going to do it differently.

00:33:44.900 I'm not going to follow in those footsteps and I'm going to create a new legacy for our

00:33:48.200 family.

00:33:48.600 God, it's so hard, right?

00:33:51.380 Because they're like, it's like the gods have done this thing where the mistakes that

00:34:02.800 your parents made, it's almost like those are like passed through the ether and they

00:34:07.360 become easier for you to make.

00:34:09.140 Right.

00:34:10.040 And I remember like, God, I remember this conversation that's coming to mind when I was like 16 and

00:34:16.240 like one of my friends was like cheating on his girlfriend.

00:34:18.260 I was like, what are you doing?

00:34:20.240 He's like, you know, my dad cheated on my mom and I just can't stop myself.

00:34:23.360 I was like, give me a break.

00:34:25.540 Right.

00:34:25.780 And he's just like, no, it's just the way it is.

00:34:27.500 Right.

00:34:28.060 And like, maybe that was an excuse, but here's the craziest thing, right?

00:34:32.720 My father watches his father and my father, you know, I read all my father's diaries

00:34:39.080 in the course of writing this book.

00:34:41.020 And like, if there's anything, anything that my dad like had a hard time handling, it was

00:34:47.160 his father's drinking, his father throwing his career away, partly through alcohol.

00:34:53.720 And then his father, like in moments of desperation, threatening to commit suicide to his son, my

00:35:00.640 father, you know, as part of like a kind of manipulation.

00:35:04.620 Right.

00:35:05.360 And my dad, like those three things, like dad, they burn my dad, right?

00:35:09.640 They burn him.

00:35:10.320 He hates it.

00:35:10.920 Right.

00:35:11.900 What did my dad do to me?

00:35:13.400 Right.

00:35:14.540 Well, he drinks way too much.

00:35:16.940 Can't stop drinking.

00:35:18.380 Kind of throws his career away from drinking.

00:35:20.840 And then in multiple occasions, threatens to commit suicide to me in order to kind of manipulate

00:35:25.940 me in order to get like me to pay his bills.

00:35:28.260 Right.

00:35:29.680 Repeats the same patterns.

00:35:31.380 Again, I didn't even know this when I was going through this.

00:35:33.240 And my dad is like saying all this crazy stuff to me.

00:35:35.860 I didn't realize that he was like doing the exact same thing that his father had done.

00:35:40.360 And you would think, right.

00:35:41.740 You would think that when your father sets a bad example, right.

00:35:44.900 And it does the wrong thing.

00:35:46.160 What you do is you take that and you'd be like, you know what?

00:35:48.320 That was hurtful and that was wrong.

00:35:49.500 And I'm going to do the opposite.

00:35:50.300 Right.

00:35:50.460 Or you're, you know, you grow up and your dad has left, right.

00:35:53.460 And your dad has left for whatever reason.

00:35:55.280 You should take that and be like, okay.

00:35:56.580 And I'm going to learn from that and I'm going to do my best.

00:35:59.040 Right.

00:35:59.140 Nobody, you know, like sometimes marriages don't work.

00:36:01.240 Sometimes life doesn't work.

00:36:02.300 Sometimes terrible things happen.

00:36:03.480 But like the lesson should be, we take the mistakes and we reverse them.

00:36:08.920 And sometimes what happens is we take the mistakes and we repeat them.

00:36:13.180 And like, so what I'm trying to do for my kids and what I, like I write in the book,

00:36:17.600 I want to break the string of Thompson fathers who've disappointed their kids.

00:36:22.500 Right.

00:36:23.100 And there are things that my dad gave me, like my dad gave me nonstop love.

00:36:27.400 He wanted the best for me at all moments.

00:36:29.220 Like there's like, and I forgave him for the, like the madness and the terrible things he

00:36:35.140 did, you know, that affected me.

00:36:36.680 Right.

00:36:37.120 But I don't want, my kids might resent this or that.

00:36:41.740 They might resent things that are going to come.

00:36:43.600 They might resent, like they might feel I put too much pressure on.

00:36:46.060 They might, they might think whatever they might like resent being in this book.

00:36:48.940 Who knows?

00:36:49.380 But I don't, I'm not going to repeat the mistakes my father made.

00:36:54.400 Right.

00:36:54.580 And that is like, that is a central part of my life.

00:36:57.380 I'm not going to do things that he did wrong.

00:37:01.240 And I'm not going to repeat that.

00:37:03.340 Hmm.

00:37:04.280 What would you say are the biggest lessons that you learned from him?

00:37:08.640 And maybe the biggest pitfalls outside of the behavior, maybe some of the mindsets that,

00:37:14.200 uh, you are trying to break that string, as you said.

00:37:18.140 I mean, the, the central thing that I, that I, that I believe, right.

00:37:23.820 And it ties into running.

00:37:24.920 It ties into a lot is, you know, he lost his ability to stay focused.

00:37:34.860 Right.

00:37:35.200 And to say, you know, your planner, right.

00:37:38.260 Planner you showed me a few minutes ago.

00:37:40.000 Right.

00:37:40.400 He lost the ability to say like, I'm going to start this thing and I'm going to finish

00:37:44.660 this thing.

00:37:45.160 Right.

00:37:45.340 And I'm going to work on this each day.

00:37:46.780 And he had that at different points.

00:37:48.580 And he had that when he was running.

00:37:49.600 Right.

00:37:49.840 You have to have that to run a marathon and you ran multiple marathons.

00:37:53.340 Like you have to go out and you have to run every day when it's rainy, when it's hot,

00:37:56.480 when it's cold, when it's whatever.

00:37:57.800 Right.

00:37:58.600 And he had that at points in his life.

00:38:00.980 But by the time he was in his fifties, sixties, seventies, you couldn't get anything done.

00:38:06.860 Right.

00:38:07.040 He couldn't like, he couldn't start a project, finish a project.

00:38:10.840 And so part of what I try to do is just to like, remember that, remember that, you

00:38:16.060 know, you, you can lose this, right?

00:38:18.180 You can lose the ability to focus and to get things, you know, to move things from the

00:38:21.640 start to the end.

00:38:22.940 And that's a really important thing that I try to like, try to hold onto.

00:38:29.160 And, you know, my dad, when I turned 40, my dad put a note on my Facebook page and he

00:38:35.080 was like, Nick, you know, things are going well for you.

00:38:37.760 Right.

00:38:37.900 Like great wife, three lovely kids, job's cool, doing well, but all men's lives fall 1.00

00:38:43.760 apart at 40.

00:38:44.500 Like there are forces in this world that are too big.

00:38:46.660 You know, it happened to your father, it happened to me.

00:38:49.300 I was like, A, there's 70,000 people who follow this Facebook page, man.

00:38:54.620 Like, why are you posting this here?

00:38:56.720 Yeah.

00:38:57.000 But B, like the real lesson was noted.

00:39:01.760 I want to try to like, look at what happened, right?

00:39:04.060 Like what happened when you turned 40?

00:39:06.780 Well, you started to blame the world.

00:39:10.460 You started to say that like the world was out to get you.

00:39:13.680 You started to say that because you had come out of the closet, the world was against you.

00:39:16.600 Well, maybe that was partly true.

00:39:17.740 I'm sure it was partly true. 0.53

00:39:18.780 It's hard to be gay in, particularly in 1980s Washington, particularly when you're a Republican.

00:39:22.600 Right.

00:39:23.760 But like, that's not, it doesn't singularly explain all the professional troubles, right?

00:39:29.740 Like you work through those things.

00:39:30.820 Like there are times people are against you.

00:39:32.120 There are times people are for you.

00:39:33.220 You, you know, you figure it out, right?

00:39:34.940 And you find your niche, you find your lane and you do the best you can.

00:39:37.300 And if you start blaming external factors and this and that, like you think the wind is

00:39:42.560 always at your face, you forget that sometimes it's at your back, right?

00:39:45.220 And so my dad kind of, he didn't, he just, he wasn't centered and confident enough.

00:39:54.200 And he wasn't like as comfortable, he wasn't comfortable enough in his skin to really like

00:39:57.700 keep, keep a confident eye on the road ahead.

00:40:04.340 And so, you know, that's what happened to him after 40.

00:40:06.860 And that's what I don't want to have happen.

00:40:11.620 Yeah.

00:40:12.020 I mean, that, that makes sense.

00:40:13.140 It's so interesting that we, we tried to put that on other people.

00:40:17.400 I'm sure his intentions weren't, weren't bad.

00:40:21.040 I'm sure his intentions were probably, probably good, but it's just so etched into people's

00:40:27.300 DNA, this victim mentality, or like you said, that the world is out to get them, that they 0.72

00:40:32.700 cannot possibly fathom any other way.

00:40:35.120 That's mind blowing to me because there's swaths of people who believe the exact opposite.

00:40:41.040 So how could it be that that is absolutely objectively true if other people can see that it's absolutely

00:40:47.500 not true?

00:40:50.520 Yeah.

00:40:51.220 It's one, it's one of the things that like, and it's, it's a, it's a really complicated

00:40:55.620 thing to deal with because back to my example of my dad, there is no doubt, right?

00:41:00.700 That like there are people who didn't want him to get jobs that he wanted to get who like

00:41:04.720 the only thing wrong, right?

00:41:06.860 Was that he's gay and they didn't want a gay person in that job. 0.98

00:41:10.100 Right. 0.92

00:41:10.340 And not only that, maybe even worse, he had made a very positive moral decision to be

00:41:16.820 open, right?

00:41:17.680 Like, and he had decided that he was going like, and he believed that, and this is particularly

00:41:22.480 true in like 1990, that the more people who are out, the easier it'll be for gay people 0.98

00:41:28.080 around the world.

00:41:28.840 Right.

00:41:29.100 And that like, part of what has to happen is for folks to recognize that their friends

00:41:33.640 are gay, that there are lots of people gay.

00:41:34.980 Right. 0.73

00:41:35.120 And my dad, like bless that man.

00:41:37.720 Right.

00:41:37.940 Like that is good.

00:41:39.260 Like he did some other things he didn't have to do.

00:41:41.700 Right. 0.98

00:41:41.880 He doesn't have to like bring cross male prostitutes to the dinner party in Washington. 0.98

00:41:49.060 Right. 0.96

00:41:49.420 Like that doesn't have to happen.

00:41:50.760 Like there, you know, and he would say, well, you know, I've got to be open about my

00:41:54.960 sexuality.

00:41:55.460 And like, this is who I'm with.

00:41:56.440 I'm like, dad, like you met that dude on the internet last night.

00:41:59.100 Right.

00:41:59.500 Like he's a totally inappropriate guy.

00:42:01.980 Like send them back to the internet.

00:42:03.820 Right.

00:42:04.180 And like go to the dinner party by yourself.

00:42:05.600 Right.

00:42:06.120 And, you know, there, so there are things he did to kind of like sabotage himself.

00:42:10.000 And then he also just, he constantly believed that this injustice, like this is why it's

00:42:15.260 not happening.

00:42:15.800 This is why it's not happening.

00:42:16.800 I was like, dad, well, you know, I don't know, fill in the job application.

00:42:20.260 Right.

00:42:20.500 Like, you know, maybe if you finish the book, right.

00:42:24.160 Like then, like, you'll be able to sell the book.

00:42:26.300 You don't finish the book.

00:42:27.760 I would have the old joke about like, Jesus, why haven't I, or God, why haven't I won the

00:42:31.620 lottery?

00:42:32.020 Buy the ticket.

00:42:32.780 Right.

00:42:33.140 Like you have to actually, you have to do things for good things to happen.

00:42:37.620 Right.

00:42:38.360 How do you now then instill in your boys, the, not this victim mentality, but, you know,

00:42:45.140 I guess here's how I choose to look at it because I don't think this is objectively true

00:42:49.880 either that the world is conspiring for my benefit.

00:42:53.680 That's what I choose to believe.

00:42:55.520 Now, objectively, is it true?

00:42:57.780 No, I think the world is pretty amoral.

00:42:59.540 I think most people don't really care about my success.

00:43:02.560 Most people don't really have a vested interest in whether or not I succeed or fail.

00:43:06.980 Most people are probably going to forget about this podcast a week or two after I pass away.

00:43:11.520 And that might sound pessimistic, but that's the realistic perspective.

00:43:15.200 But if I get to choose something, I'm going to choose that the world is conspiring in my

00:43:21.620 benefit on my behalf.

00:43:23.900 How do you instill that in your boys?

00:43:27.860 I mean, A, you know, like make it clear, right?

00:43:30.440 Like they do have huge advantages.

00:43:31.980 I have huge advantages, right?

00:43:32.980 I'm like a six foot tall heterosexual white male.

00:43:35.320 Like things are like, there are lots of structures in life that are built to like make things easier

00:43:39.300 for you.

00:43:39.700 But they're also like, there are lots of situations where A, the red carpet's not going

00:43:45.040 to be laid down in front of you.

00:43:45.980 And B, they're going to be all kinds of like complicated obstacles for, you know, whatever

00:43:51.060 particular reason.

00:43:52.100 So I say to them, like, you know, if you don't, they always will have, like, there's always

00:43:56.600 a reason, right?

00:43:57.220 I didn't make the soccer team because I wasn't close enough to the coach, right?

00:44:00.560 Or I didn't make the soccer team because, you know, for whatever reason.

00:44:05.720 Actually, let me say something about soccer.

00:44:06.720 You know what I love about soccer, right?

00:44:08.740 What I love about soccer and the thing that I think is teaching them all this great stuff.

00:44:12.860 So it's very meritocratic actually.

00:44:16.380 And it's everybody.

00:44:18.000 And so they play like my 15 year old, he'll play a bunch of games this week, right?

00:44:23.380 He'll play for his high school team, right?

00:44:24.760 So he's playing for like a private high school in Brooklyn, playing against other private high

00:44:28.340 school kids, right?

00:44:29.540 Great.

00:44:30.580 He'll play in a league where everybody speaks Spanish.

00:44:33.480 The refs speak Spanish and it's all immigrants, right? 0.98

00:44:35.820 And the league was like, basically was shut down briefly because of ice raids and the

00:44:38.860 risk, right?

00:44:39.940 Great.

00:44:40.920 He plays with men from the Caribbean who have a game that they play near us.

00:44:45.760 And it's like a bunch of guys who like play pro when they were young or really good.

00:44:48.840 And now they're in their forties or fifties and they love my kid, right?

00:44:51.380 Plays that game.

00:44:52.460 And then he plays for his club team, got you in Queens where, you know, like the kids,

00:44:57.440 like my wife and I might be the only two parents who are both born in the United States.

00:45:01.800 It's like immigrants from all over the world, right?

00:45:03.440 So he's getting this like incredible experience of different people facing different things,

00:45:09.020 right?

00:45:09.140 Different people who've grown up in different circumstances, different people who have no

00:45:12.640 money, people who have lots of money, people who, right?

00:45:15.960 Who's like, you know, the parents are like prison guards.

00:45:19.100 The parents are, you know, cops.

00:45:20.980 The parents are lawyers, right?

00:45:22.520 And what he's realizing is that everybody's coming from these different backgrounds, coming

00:45:26.240 from these different places.

00:45:27.280 And you get on the soccer pitch.

00:45:29.600 I'm like, none of that matters, right?

00:45:30.820 You're going, you're just, you're playing against each other and you're playing like,

00:45:33.600 you know, and, you know, you're getting to see everybody as equals.

00:45:38.160 I used to feel that way when I would travel.

00:45:40.860 Like I was a reporter and I would go travel in Africa or go travel in Asia, right?

00:45:44.880 And you go and you travel into like a, you're traveling in Senegal, right?

00:45:49.760 And you go out there as a reporter and you're like, this is the, you know, this is in the

00:45:52.400 1990s.

00:45:53.140 And you're like, you're a white person in Senegal.

00:45:55.300 And like, you kind of attract a bunch of attention and it's kind of weird.

00:45:58.620 And there's a strange dynamic.

00:46:00.640 When you go on the soccer field and you're just one of the people there, like you're

00:46:05.100 like, either you're good or you're bad.

00:46:06.700 And if you're bad, you're bad.

00:46:07.780 And if you're good, you're good, right?

00:46:08.880 And if you're good, you get drafted quickly.

00:46:10.840 And if you're bad, you get told to sit on the side.

00:46:12.520 And it's an amazing thing.

00:46:13.800 It's a way to kind of bring a meritocracy in.

00:46:17.740 It was a great way to meet people when I was traveling.

00:46:19.480 So anyway, so what I try to instill with my kids is to recognize like you have wind at

00:46:24.800 your back for a bunch of reasons, right?

00:46:27.020 And remember that.

00:46:27.880 Don't forget that.

00:46:28.780 And there's going to be wind at your face for all kinds of different reasons that you

00:46:32.040 don't know about and that you don't know.

00:46:33.980 But like you go out there and you do your very best.

00:46:36.560 You try to compete in the most meritocratic way you can.

00:46:39.500 And if you don't get it, you analyze why you didn't get it and you try to do better the

00:46:43.620 next time.

00:46:44.080 And that's, that's what I try to teach them.

00:46:46.560 Yeah.

00:46:46.700 I like that story of, of how your, your children are playing with all sorts of demographics

00:46:54.020 and economic status.

00:46:56.260 You know, I think about that with the military when I was in the military, you know, and we're

00:47:01.680 in Iraq and we're dealing with incoming rockets and mortars.

00:47:05.060 I'm not worried about whether the guy next to me is black or white or brown or who knows

00:47:09.100 what color or what sexual orientation he is, or what is even what his political viewpoints

00:47:14.600 are.

00:47:14.960 I'm worried as to whether or not he's going to have my back and I have his back and he's

00:47:20.040 capable and I'm capable.

00:47:21.400 And that's all we're worried about.

00:47:22.940 But you know what I think is challenging is so much of these social institutions, whether

00:47:27.000 it's military service or church congregations, or even community involvement, even just knowing

00:47:33.700 your neighbors, like who lives next to you is going away.

00:47:37.240 And so we become so isolated that now all we look at is, or easier to look at is immutable

00:47:44.180 characteristics as opposed to what's going on beneath those, those characteristics.

00:47:52.180 Yeah.

00:47:52.600 You know, and like, I love what you say.

00:47:56.160 Sorry, one second.

00:47:56.960 You went.

00:47:57.320 Um, oh, did it cut out for a minute?

00:48:01.800 It cut out, it cut out for like 10 seconds.

00:48:03.660 So I'll just finish your answer.

00:48:05.480 I'll answer it.

00:48:06.500 Um, I lost you for like 10 seconds.

00:48:08.320 Um, hold on one second.

00:48:09.120 Let me just make sure this is all set.

00:48:11.500 Yeah, no problem.

00:48:12.240 Um, all right.

00:48:15.300 Yeah.

00:48:15.580 I love what you just said about the military.

00:48:17.400 It's why the military is so amazing, right?

00:48:19.480 It is one of the best institutions in American life for getting people to like understand and

00:48:26.960 love each other, no matter what their backgrounds are.

00:48:29.080 And that's also what's so great about sports.

00:48:31.940 And it's what's like, one of the things that I love about running is that it's, it's totally

00:48:39.640 meritocratic.

00:48:40.260 Like no one can say you ran fast or you ran slow because of like, you know, because of

00:48:46.700 your skin color, because your sexual eye, like you ran faster, slow because of you, right? 0.99

00:48:49.820 You go out there and like, if you run, if the fastest person wins the race, like fast

00:48:53.020 person wins the race.

00:48:53.900 Sometimes when you're applying for a job, there can be all kinds of reasons.

00:48:56.340 If you didn't win the race, you can say, well, it's because my dad would say, well,

00:48:59.600 it's because they're homophobic, right?

00:49:02.940 Okay.

00:49:03.580 Maybe they were, maybe they weren't.

00:49:05.380 Some cases they probably were, but you go out and you run and it's you.

00:49:08.500 And it's like a really, a really beautiful thing.

00:49:10.760 I think sports are a good equalizer.

00:49:12.280 I think the military is a great equalizer.

00:49:13.820 I think we need many more things in America that allow us to be with each other and understand

00:49:21.740 each other.

00:49:22.680 There's this wonderful, there are all these studies about what can make people from different

00:49:28.940 political backgrounds, like talk and understand each other.

00:49:31.360 And you take, you take two people who like really disagree on abortion, right?

00:49:36.600 Maybe they disagree on abortion because of lived experience.

00:49:38.740 Maybe they disagree because of politics, maybe disagree because of religion, who knows?

00:49:42.040 And you put them down, you put them across the table and you're like, talk about abortion,

00:49:45.320 like they'll get mad, right?

00:49:46.260 And they won't listen and they won't learn, right?

00:49:48.420 But you put them down across the table and beforehand you, you, you realize that they're both from

00:49:51.920 Dallas, right?

00:49:52.720 They both grew up in Dallas, maybe lived in places.

00:49:54.300 You say, well, you guys are going to talk about the Mavericks or the Cowboys for five minutes,

00:49:58.000 right?

00:49:58.640 Talk about the Cowboys.

00:49:59.900 Then you bring it to abortion.

00:50:00.940 Oh no, wow.

00:50:01.520 And then actually you have the conversation and then you learn, right?

00:50:04.360 And like, you learn why this person is really against it or why this person is really for

00:50:07.860 it or what, you know, and like, then you can understand each other, right?

00:50:11.040 And so like, one of the things that we need to get better at in this country is start where

00:50:16.720 we have commonalities, right?

00:50:18.540 And then move to where we disagree.

00:50:20.280 And then actually you learn from the disagreement.

00:50:22.160 If you start at the disagreement, you forget the commonalities.

00:50:25.160 And so like, you know, okay, like I'm really interested in AI.

00:50:28.480 Okay, let's talk about AI.

00:50:29.800 Well, that's great.

00:50:30.380 Now let's get to where you and I disagree or that's a, it's a, it's a much better way

00:50:34.860 to communicate with people.

00:50:37.080 And we need more things like that in America right now.

00:50:40.100 Yeah, I agree.

00:50:40.540 And I, that's part of the reason why this podcast and others are so powerful because you get

00:50:44.500 to have conversations with people of all walks of life.

00:50:47.960 Some you agree with, some you don't, but you are having real dialogue with good faith.

00:50:53.420 I think that's important trying to understand each other and come to some understandings

00:50:58.760 about the way that, that the world works and the way that men can drive forward and move

00:51:03.740 forward and be better.

00:51:04.700 It's a, it's pretty incredible that we get to do work like this.

00:51:08.640 It's awesome.

00:51:09.300 And I like, I love you do this podcast.

00:51:10.720 You have people coming in from like all walks of life and it's so hard for men, right?

00:51:14.060 And it's hard for men for like lots of reasons.

00:51:16.900 One of which is like, we don't, we don't talk, you know, like it's harder to get men

00:51:22.560 to open up.

00:51:23.860 It's harder for men to admit their vulnerabilities.

00:51:26.600 It's harder for men to be open with one another.

00:51:29.400 And if you can't do that, then sometimes you can't get to the stuff you really need to

00:51:32.200 talk about.

00:51:32.860 So it's like, yeah, when you wrote, it'd be like, can you be on this podcast?

00:51:36.240 I was like, hell yeah.

00:51:37.260 I'd love to be on this podcast.

00:51:39.460 Yeah.

00:51:39.860 It's a, it's such a powerful dialogue and opportunity to come to some mutual understanding.

00:51:44.200 So with the work that you do with, with the Atlantic, how, how, how is running?

00:51:48.880 Cause that's such a big part of your life and a big part of this book.

00:51:51.460 How has that helped you?

00:51:53.620 Uh, you were with the New Yorker, you were with Wired.

00:51:56.300 Now you're the CEO of the Atlantic, which I think for four or five years now, like, how

00:52:00.500 has that helped you be a better CEO, be better in your, your career aspirations and pursuits?

00:52:08.900 A couple of ways.

00:52:10.080 Um, you know, one is it does give me like running does give me an outlet, right?

00:52:16.820 And it like, it is my mental space.

00:52:19.220 You know, I'm, I'm here at the office, work really hard, focused on the to-do list, but

00:52:24.600 I run to the office and I run home from the office.

00:52:26.760 Right.

00:52:27.000 And so it's, I clear my mind.

00:52:28.240 I'm like with my children.

00:52:29.740 We have a good time.

00:52:30.780 I come to the office, work really hard.

00:52:32.840 I run home with my children, my wife.

00:52:34.440 Right.

00:52:34.600 So it's, it's a mental space and I could do lots of other things from the mental space.

00:52:37.960 There are also habits of mind that running, particularly running intensely teach you,

00:52:43.500 right?

00:52:43.660 It teaches you sort of the stoicism I mentioned earlier, right?

00:52:47.140 Like you go out, you run every day, you get better, right?

00:52:49.940 It teaches you this attitude of like, I'm going to do the best I can right now and I'll

00:52:53.940 be better.

00:52:54.400 I'm going to do the best I can and then I'll be better.

00:52:56.580 It also like, it gives you endurance, which is really helpful for hard things at work.

00:53:01.840 Right.

00:53:02.180 Like, um, you have to, you got to get through a big, I don't know, I've been all hands coming

00:53:07.000 up, right?

00:53:08.660 I've never lost my cool in all hands, even when like really hard stuff happens.

00:53:12.180 Right.

00:53:13.240 Um, why have I never lost my cool in all hands?

00:53:15.720 I don't know.

00:53:16.120 Maybe it's because I like can keep my concentration in a long marathon, right?

00:53:19.720 Maybe the way, reason I keep my concentration in a long marathon is from all these all hard

00:53:23.600 all hands, right?

00:53:24.300 You, you learn how to, um, you kind of learn how to do that.

00:53:29.580 And then you also like, you learn a lot about goal setting and pacing, right?

00:53:35.700 These are like hard things to get right.

00:53:37.760 Like what is the right goal to set and what is the way to pace yourself to get that goal?

00:53:42.640 And running is so specific and clear.

00:53:46.200 It's like a very good test case.

00:53:47.760 You learn, all right, I'm going to, I'm going to set a goal.

00:53:50.380 I'm going to run a three hour marathon.

00:53:51.420 I'm going to run a two 30 marathon.

00:53:52.580 I'm going to run a four hour marathon.

00:53:54.300 I'm going to figure out how to do it.

00:53:55.760 And then when I'm out there, I'm going to pace myself, right?

00:53:57.800 And you do that, you execute.

00:53:59.360 And actually you've learned like some pretty good lessons about, well, now, all right,

00:54:03.300 I'm going to try to get 1.5 million subscribers to the Atlantic, right?

00:54:06.900 Now, how am I going to do that?

00:54:07.700 Okay, I'm going to set a goal.

00:54:08.440 I'm going to pace myself.

00:54:09.260 And so it's not exactly the same thing.

00:54:11.780 Like there's some differences, right?

00:54:12.840 And running the way to get the best performance is to hard, easy, hard, easy, hard, easy, right?

00:54:21.080 Like you're, you're, you're beating yourself up and then you're recovering, beating yourself

00:54:26.260 up and then you're recovering, beating yourself and then you're recovering.

00:54:28.760 In a job, the way to get the maximum performance is like steady effort, steady effort, steady

00:54:32.880 effort, steady effort, right?

00:54:33.740 So there's like different cadences to working and to physical training for running, but there's

00:54:39.360 a lot of similarities.

00:54:40.500 And I think there's a lot of the, you know, everything you do in life, right?

00:54:45.700 From the way you get up and get out of bed to like how you make your breakfast, how you

00:54:48.960 brush your teeth, like creates habits and creates like habits of mind and creates this personality

00:54:53.860 type.

00:54:54.260 And I think that it helps you become who you are.

00:54:57.500 And I think the habit of running every day, like kind of makes you into, I think it makes,

00:55:04.600 it can distract you.

00:55:05.680 It can make you selfish.

00:55:06.420 It can make you self-absorbed, right?

00:55:08.660 It can take up too much time, but I think in general, if you do it right and you contain

00:55:12.860 it, it can make you into like a more centered person who's able to work a little better.

00:55:17.560 So that's one of the reasons why I love this sport so much.

00:55:20.440 Yeah.

00:55:21.100 Well, I have yet to have found the joy of running, but I do run on occasion, but that said,

00:55:27.280 I do stay very active.

00:55:31.280 There's all kinds of stuff that you do that is the same for you, right?

00:55:34.720 That's giving you the mental space that's giving you like the goal setting, right?

00:55:37.300 I'm going to get this done.

00:55:38.740 That is just like running for me.

00:55:40.820 Yeah, exactly.

00:55:42.200 Well, Nick, I appreciate you taking your time.

00:55:44.740 It's fascinating to see somebody who's as passionate about their own personal pursuits

00:55:49.860 and also their career aspirations, you know, with the work that you've done with the Atlantic

00:55:53.180 and other resources and magazines and publications.

00:55:57.480 It's pretty incredible what you're doing.

00:55:59.100 And I'm excited to get this information out to the guys.

00:56:01.920 Tell the guys where to connect with you and learn more about what you're up to.

00:56:04.620 And of course, pick up a copy of the book.

00:56:07.220 Yeah.

00:56:07.440 So the book is The Running Ground.

00:56:08.920 You know, as I said, it's like the best thing I've ever written.

00:56:11.100 I care a ton about it.

00:56:12.000 Spent five years on this.

00:56:13.040 It's my story of running, the story of my father.

00:56:14.920 Like, please pick up a copy, read it, write to me.

00:56:18.660 I'll sign it and send you one.

00:56:20.700 I'm on LinkedIn.

00:56:21.560 I post a video every day about technology policy.

00:56:24.220 I'm on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, NX Thompson.

00:56:27.300 I'm at nickthompson.com.

00:56:28.720 Pretty easy to find on the internet.

00:56:30.140 Subscribe to The Atlantic.

00:56:32.040 I'm out there.

00:56:32.700 I want to hear from you.

00:56:33.440 I love talking to people.

00:56:34.860 I love talking to people about these things.

00:56:36.880 I host a podcast, The Most Interesting Thing in AI, about AI.

00:56:40.100 I'm just a, I'm like a curious, interested guy.

00:56:43.180 And I love Ryan that you invited me on the show.

00:56:45.780 Awesome, Nick.

00:56:46.060 Thank you very much.

00:56:46.800 I appreciate you joining us today.

00:56:48.600 Okay, awesome.

00:56:49.900 Thanks again.

00:56:50.520 Cheers.

00:56:52.140 Gentlemen, there you go.

00:56:53.000 My conversation with Nick Thompson.

00:56:54.600 I hope you enjoyed it.

00:56:55.560 I am not much of a runner myself, but he is.

00:56:57.720 And we talked about it at the end of the podcast, as you heard, that finding something, finding

00:57:03.340 an outlet is really what's going to help you make sense of the chaos and the world around

00:57:08.920 us.

00:57:09.400 The world can be hectic and frustrating and confusing and everything else.

00:57:14.480 But having these positive and healthy outlets will help us show up more fully in our professional

00:57:20.000 pursuits and our personal endeavors as well.

00:57:23.440 So check out the new book, The Running Ground by Nick Thompson.

00:57:26.320 I hope you enjoyed that podcast.

00:57:27.640 As a reminder, make sure to check out our Divorce Not Death call, preview call tomorrow night,

00:57:33.940 Wednesday, November 5th at 8 p.m.

00:57:35.820 Eastern at DivorceNotDeath.com slash preview.

00:57:40.100 DivorceNotDeath.com slash preview.

00:57:42.620 All right, guys, we will be back tomorrow for our Ask Me Anything.

00:57:46.220 Until then, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to be.

00:57:50.280 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

00:57:53.280 If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be,

00:57:57.280 we invite you to join the order at OrderOfMan.com.

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Order of Man - November 04, 2025

NICK THOMPSON ｜ Breaking Bad Legacy

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