OoM 008： How to Become a Better Leader with Ryan Hawk
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Summary
There s absolutely no doubt in my mind that you ve had a bad experience with a horrible boss, manager, or employer. It seems like solid, strong leaders are few and far between. In this episode, I talk with Ryan Hawk from The Learning Leader Podcast about what it takes to be an effective leader, how you can improve your leadership skills, and why all the great leaders are continually learning.
Transcript
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There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that you've had a bad experience with a horrible boss,
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manager, or employer. It seems like solid, strong leaders are few and far between.
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In this episode, I talk with Ryan Hawk from the Learning Leader Podcast about what it takes to
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be an effective leader, how you can improve your leadership skills, and why all the great leaders
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are continually learning. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears,
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and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time,
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you are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is
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who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,
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you can call yourself a man. Men, welcome to the Order Man Podcast. My name is Ryan Mickler,
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and as always, I'm glad that you're here with us today. We're going to be talking about one of the
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most important skills that you need to learn to develop, and that is leadership. But before we
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get into that, I want to make you aware of the Order of Man YouTube channel, which you can check
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out at youtube.com slash orderofman. I just released an episode today on why men need to stop worrying
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about minimum wage. Be sure to check that out. Now, before we meet our guest today, I also want to let
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you know that you can check out the show notes for this show at orderofman.com slash 008.
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Now, my guest today is Ryan Hawk. Ryan is the host of The Learning Leader, a show designed to interview
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world-class leaders. He's a former college and even arena football quarterback, and he is passionate
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about his leadership development journey. His experience in sales and corporate leadership,
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and also his time on the football field has led him to his passion, which is to learn from other
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great and inspiring leaders, and of course, help others do the same. Ryan, I'm stoked to have you on
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the show. Thanks for joining me today. Thank you, Ryan, man. I'm absolutely pumped to be here. I'm a
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fan of your show. I listen to it and a fan of your story as well, so thank you for having me.
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Yeah, I appreciate it. Well, so we met in a networking group that both of us belong to,
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and I've been impressed ever since I've followed you, which has literally only been about a month,
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but I've been really impressed with what you're doing, and in particular, your podcast, The Learning
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Leader Show. So I'd like to know a little bit and tell the audience a little bit about what that show
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is all about and why you started The Learning Leader Show. Well, thank you. Yeah, it is an absolute
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passion project for me. I am fanatical about a few things, and two of those things are the art and the
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science of leadership as well as learning and constantly improving. And so I actually did this
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exercise, and I hate that I forget who told me about this exercise, but what it is is I took a sheet of
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paper, and I put a line down the middle of that piece of paper, and the left side, I wrote down
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everything that I love and everything that I'm passionate about. And on the right side, I asked
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people who were very close to me, you know, close to my family, my wife, people who I'm very close
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with, I said, can you write down what you think I am an expert in or you would view me as an expert?
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And then what I did is I took that piece of paper and the things that showed up on both sides of that
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list. I said, I've got to do something that follows both what people view me as being an expert and what
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I'm passionate about. And the things that popped up were leadership, constant improvement, passion,
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drive, those types of things. And so The Learning Leader Show is all about speaking with the smartest,
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most creative, driven people in the world, you know, mainly in the leadership space, some type of
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leadership they have, they can provide, and then sharing that with others and hoping that it could
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help people because nothing gives more joy than receiving an email or a tweet or a text message
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from a friend that says, hey, man, that episode I just listened to really, really helped me. I now
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am incorporating a new morning routine because I listened to your episode with Hal Elrod and you
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both were great. You know, things like that, that gives me more joy than just about anything. So
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that's my really long answer to the question of why am I doing the show? I absolutely love it. I'm so
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passionate about it and it's so much fun and I've already learned a ton and it hasn't even been going
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on that long. So that's awesome. I appreciate you sharing that. Tell me a little bit about why
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leadership? Like why is it that that is something that's a big passion for you? Does that start way back?
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Is that something relatively new? Definitely starts way back. You know, it starts, you know,
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my leadership development started on the athletic fields, playing football, playing baseball, playing
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basketball growing up, starting at a very, very young age. And I played the position of quarterback
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when I played football and that's what kind of drove me and where I got a lot of that experience.
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I played all the way up through high school. I was fortunate enough to earn a college scholarship
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and play for a few years after college in the arena football league. And I've always been in a
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position of leadership and trying to, you know, lead others, create more leaders, do things that are
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going to help a team get better, be the guy that people are going to look to, to lead the group.
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And I love those positions and I love learning about others who have been great at leading people.
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And so that's, that's really why my show is about a learning and leadership.
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So I want to jump back to that, but before I do, I want to ask you kind of an off topic question.
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When you did that exercise where you listed out your traits and what you were passionate about and
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what other people thought of you, was there anything on there that was surprising to you that
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you learned? Was that enlightening at all for you or was it pretty much something you already knew?
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Oh, that's a great question. I was, you know, I wouldn't say I was super surprised. I probably
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would have been if I would have asked a larger group of people. I've done exercises like that
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in my day job where I have maybe an HR representative will go to people who work for me or worked for me
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and they ask them questions, you know, what is he good at? What is he not good at? You know,
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how could he improve? And sometimes I'm surprised at that. Usually I've been fortunate to be in
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the positive, but there are obviously other areas where I need to fix, but that particular
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exercise, it was, um, it was pretty evident and I wasn't that surprised. Like I said,
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it was close family members who were, who were doing it because I thought those are the people
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who knew me the best. Right, right. That makes sense. So going back to now your, your role as,
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as a quarterback, which anytime you're in a leadership position, it's always the most glamorous,
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but in my mind, it's always could be the most stressful as well, because if things go well,
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you get to ride that. Right. But if things go horrible, that's your fault. It's not the team's
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fault. So what are some lessons that you learned about how to be an effective leader on the field
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and how has that carried over into your life now that you're, you're, you're with this podcast and
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the other things that you're doing? Well, I mean, you have to, you have to love that responsibility.
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I think you, you, you grow into that. And if some people don't, that's why they don't want to play the
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position of quarterback or they want, they don't want to be a leader in whatever their field of
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work is. And if, and I think you learn through that, you know, I've felt the great feelings of
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people saying how great you were as a quarterback. And I've also felt people saying you were terrible,
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you know, when you have a bad game, everybody has bad games. And, and so it develops a, a very,
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very thick skin and an ability to get criticized and be able to use that as fuel or even motivation.
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Or if you're getting criticized by a coach, maybe he's, he's trying to help you, um, in some way,
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shape or form that I'm able to now help in the business world. Uh, I have thicker skin. I mean,
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nothing, I'm, I'm, you know, I, I've stood, stood back in a pocket, um, with 275 pound guys trying to
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kill me. Right. So when I, when I'm at work, I'm somewhere, I'm speaking on my podcast, nothing's
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ever going to be as bad as that. I mean, I'm never going to have someone trying to kill me. You know,
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I'm not in my line of work, you know, where they're trying to come and take my head off and
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sack me as a, as a D lineman, try to get a quarterback. So that in a way, and I speak
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with other people who've played football or maybe they're from a military background or like, yeah,
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sometimes somebody might say, you know, I, I messed up at work or things didn't go well,
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but it's never going to be as tough or as bad as it was when I was, you know, in some people's cases,
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uh, fighting a war or in my case, playing in the game of football. So it's, I think that's what
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really helps that you face adversity and all, you know, lines of work, all fields that you're
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going to get into, there's going to be adverse situations. I've been through a lot of that
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through athletics and that's really, really helped when it translates into whatever it is you're
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going to do for your profession. So I've always been really curious because we watch, you know,
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we watch football on TV or at a game, whatever it may be. And we see these quarterbacks, you know,
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they get up 95, 99% of the time, but what goes through your head when, like you said, a 300 pound
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dude just is trying to clobber you and you know, you have to get back up and complete, you know,
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the series or complete the game. What's I, I'm really curious what's going through your head at
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that point. Well, you know, that you're, you're being, your teammates depend on you and there's
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something really powerful about you, you know, you want your teammates to depend on you, but the
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only way they're going to is if you do continually get up, they see you getting crushed,
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right? They see, see you take a big shot. They see you stand in the pocket, step and throw and
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release. And you know what, as some would say, the bullets are flying and the guys are right in
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your face and you get a big hit and you go, you go down, right? If you're not able to get up,
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you're not able to take those hits, you're not going to be able to play quarterback. And so I like,
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I like people depending on me. I want to be the person that people depend on the most and both in my
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life or my family, as well as when I played football. And so that absolutely carries over. I want that
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for all of the work that I do. I want people to say like, you know, if, if, if the game's going to
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be won or lost, I prefer to be playing the biggest role in whatever that game is, whether it's football
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or business or anything that that's not, that's not, doesn't come from an arrogance that just
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comes from my preparation, my work ethic, things that I think I'm going to do to be ready for whatever
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it may be. So I, I like that, that person who you can say, you know what, I know he's going to get
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up. He's tough. He can, he can play the position well. Um, and I don't have ever have to worry about
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him, uh, not continuing or not being there. He he's consistent and he's dependable.
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Well, one of the reasons that I really like competitive sports and now that I've got boys,
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they're, they're playing baseball and football and basketball. And one of the reasons I like it so
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much is because I look at sports as a metaphor for life. And one of the things that I'm always impressed
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with, especially a quarterback who's able to maintain his cool and be level-headed is how
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do you maintain that coolness, that under pressure? Like for example, if you know, your blindside
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left tackle blew his coverage or some, or his block or his assignment, how do you not jump
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on that guy and maintain your cool and take responsibility and be able to continue to play
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the game, even though it may have been someone else's mistake that caused that to happen?
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Well, I try to think of if I was in his position, how would I best respond?
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What, what type of leadership is needed for me to best respond? So remember all there's 10 other
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guys playing with you when you're the quarterback and all 10 of them have different personalities.
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So there, there might be some guys that you do need, you do need to get on, but there also are
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other guys that you can't do that because you know, they won't respond well. So that's why it's
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also playing the position of quarterback helps translate to a leadership role in a business because
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you can't treat all of your employees the same, right? They're, they're each, they all have
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different personalities. They respond differently to different coaching. So it, I learned a ton
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playing, especially in college, because in college you have people from all different
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socioeconomic backgrounds, people from all over the country. We had people from out of the country.
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So I had teammates that were drastically different and diverse, which me as the, as the leader of
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that team, I needed to learn how do I handle each guy's personality and coach them in a way that
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they'll respond in a positive way for us to win the game. So if the left tackle is a guy who actually
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needs somebody to get on them, it's my duty to do that. If he's a guy who will not respond well to
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that, then I have to know that I have to understand that. And I think that's the difference between
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either great coaches or great leaders is that some of them have one style and they can't adapt to
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other people. The great ones, they understand how to adapt to each and every person. And I tried as
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best I could to be one of those. So is that a trial and error thing or are there some strategies or
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some techniques that you use to quickly identify how your teammates respond to different levels of
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coaching or leadership? Definitely some trial and error. However, it's also, it's, it's, it's the time
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investment of getting to know each person on a personal level, right? Especially my guys on
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offense with me. Like I needed to know them inside and out, go to dinner with them, study with them,
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watch film with them, hang out with them, you know, go to parties with them, do everything as best I can
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with them as the leader to understand, you know, get to know their personality and what they're like.
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And you'll learn quickly, um, the, the personalities of each person. And then yes, there is obviously an
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element of trial and error. And hopefully that's done on the practice field to where, you know,
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okay, I know how I have to treat my left tackle is different from my right tackle. My running back
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might be more sensitive than my wide receiver or whatever. And so I think that's learned over time.
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Uh, but, but like, again, the better ones are able to pick up on that as quickly as possible,
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but you do have to invest the time with those people in order to know that.
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Right. That makes sense. I want to go back to a question that, or, uh, uh, something that you
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said a minute ago and you talked about if anybody, you know, can handle the pressure or if I'm going
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to play the game, I want to play at the biggest level and I want the pressure. I want to be that
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guy. And I think that's intimidating for a lot of men. I think that they want to be the leader,
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whether it's in their house or in their business or in their community, but it's scary,
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right? I mean, it's a little intimidating when people are looking to you to succeed or to help
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them succeed. What is it about you or your personality or background that causes you to
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say, I want to be that guy. Like when everything's on the line, I want to be the guy who has the ball
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or be on the line for the success of the failure of whatever it is we're working on.
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I don't know. Do you, do you think, do you think there's a lot of, I mean, I guess I feel like a lot
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of people are like that. I don't know. Like if it, I just think if it's up, if it's,
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if it's going to happen, right, wouldn't you rather as a person, whether it's, I know this
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is the order of man, but, but, or as a man, wouldn't you rather be on your shoulders than
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somebody else's, than, than your fate in somebody else's hands? I, I, I feel like most people are
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like that, or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just in my own head. What do you think?
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Well, I think that's probably why you're so successful with, with what you've done in
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the past is because you think that way. And to think any different is pretty foreign to
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you, but I do believe there's a lot of people out there who don't want the responsibility.
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Like they would rather give that up and hope that somebody else will take care of it and
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it'll all work out based on what somebody else is doing. I really do.
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That mindset. And I see what you're saying. That mindset seems, it seems bizarre to me and
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foreign. Um, just because I don't know, I'm, I am a little bit puzzled because I can't imagine
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if, if somebody says there's something really, really important, right? And this, this task
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needs to be completed, whatever the task may be. Would you rather do it? Or would you rather
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have, you know, John Smith right down the road, do it, who you think is a good guy, good leader,
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like I, regardless of who that other guy is, you know, I'm probably going to want to have
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heavy involvement in getting that task done. Now, I think part of the job too, though, as a great
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leader is leveraging resources, understanding who can help you going to those people. What? So like
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if you're going to use, if you're going to use football, you know, if, if you have a great slot
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receiver who gets open all the time, you got to get him the ball, right? You know, you have a great
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running back sometimes as a quarterback, even if you want to pass and you want to, you want to, you
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want to, you know, throw a lot, but you have a great running back. Well, sometimes you got to hand in
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the ball. So I think that's part of being part of being a leader too, is understanding if you have
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resources. So like in the, in the business world, I fully understand that there are things that I'm
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good at, but there are other things that other, that there are other people who are far smarter
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than me, far better than me. I need to leverage those people and we're going to help each other
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together, get whatever that task is done. You know, so as far as my podcast is concerned,
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we were talking earlier, you know, I'm not good at building a website. I wasn't good at creating a
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logo. I leveraged resources, right? I asked other people. In some cases I paid people to do those
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things for me because, you know, I knew there's professionals who could do that far better than
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me. So I think it's, um, again, a longer answer to your question, but I think part of leadership is
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also leveraging resources. I really appreciate your level of confidence because I think that's
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what, you know, being a successful man is all about. But what I want to talk about is with those
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men, and I feel like I'm confident in what I do as well. And one of the things that I personally
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struggle with, and I know there's a lot of guys out there that feel the same, is that when we feel
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like, Hey, we can do this better than anybody else out there, how do you delegate? How do you release
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some of that control? Even if you know that, Hey, this might not get done to the same level,
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but it's going to be way more efficient if somebody else does it. How do you find that balance of doing
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it yourself versus delegating it to somebody else? What type of task would you, are you, are you
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talking about when you say delegating? Well, so for example, um, there's a lot of administrative
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stuff and you know, this as well as I do, but there's a lot of administrative stuff that goes
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into the blog and the podcast and making the website run. And, and although I might be great
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having conversations with you and my other guests, I may not be as good as putting together the, uh,
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you know, like you said, the website or the show notes or some of the administrative duties.
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Yeah. Although I feel like I wouldn't be able to get them done at the same level if I
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delegate those out to somebody else. I see what you're saying. I, um, I try to have an understanding
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of, I think, um, you have to know what you're, what you can do and what you can't do and you have
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to know what you know and what you don't. Right. And so, uh, when it comes to, like you said,
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when it comes to the preparation before a podcast, when it comes to, uh, executing the episode,
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uh, taking the show notes afterwards, like I, I feel like I, I, from a preparation standpoint,
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nobody's going to do that better than me. And so I, I do that myself. I write down any type of notes.
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Um, before every guest, I probably have roughly, you know, five to seven pages of notes, anything I
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can find online. I read their books. I watch, um, videos of them. If they have a Ted talk or whatever,
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I listened to podcasts they've done before if they've been on them. So I think preparation standpoint,
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I know I don't delegate that at all. Literally none. Um, now I have, I have help on other things
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that I know I'm not, that I'm probably not as good at like, uh, editing, right? I'm not great.
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I'm not a great editor. I think I can execute the episode, but then I need a little help editing.
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So I, you know, I have help doing that. Uh, I, like I said before, I have help building a website.
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I have help creating logos. I have help creating designs because my brain works a little bit
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differently than those things. So I need help in some areas. And so when I do,
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I'm okay delegating now, I, before my, my podcast even launched, you know, I had people that I
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delegated to, um, that weren't very good and I had to, I'm not going to say fire them, but I,
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I changed the people that I delegated to work to. And that's a learning process because I realized I
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can't count on that person. They're not, uh, they're not getting it done on time or not getting
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it done the way I think it should be done. And then you move on and you find somebody else.
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So I'm glad you said that, that you move on and find somebody else, because I think a lot of times
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what I've seen in the past is where, you know, someone might delegate something out. It doesn't
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get done to the level that they would like to have it done. And all of a sudden they say, Oh,
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forget it. I'll just do it myself. Right. Yeah. Rather than saying, Hey, no, this is still okay.
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This just didn't happen to be the right person, but I know that there's a right person out there to,
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to handle this job or this task. Yeah. You know, podcast takes so much time and, and we, we, you know,
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we both a lot going on. So I knew that there were some tasks that I was just going to have to
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delegate because there's, there's only so much time. And I also have to spend time trying to
00:20:52.460
acquire and get great guests. And that's a whole nother, you know, art and science in its own of,
00:20:57.540
of, of reaching out and finding great people to be on the podcast. So that's a, that takes time too.
00:21:02.440
One of the premises of your show is that you're learning from other successful people in all aspects
00:21:08.260
of life. So you're talking with a lot of leaders. Is there, and I think you said you had 25 or 30
00:21:13.940
shows recorded. Obviously there's not that many released yet because you released a couple of
00:21:17.740
weeks ago, but is there a reoccurring trend in the, in the interviews you've done and the
00:21:22.560
conversations that you've had with successful people? Is there some things, some underlying
00:21:26.580
tones that you keep seeing, you see keep popping up? They've all failed. Every single one of them,
00:21:33.720
every one of them have gone through massive adversity at one point in their life. You know,
00:21:37.820
whether a Pat Flynn, you know, got laid off from a job that he absolutely loved and he never would
00:21:42.980
have quit. Right. I mean, Chris Brogan is another guy who's had a big time failure in his life prior
00:21:50.500
to now making it big. Um, Maurice Claret, a guy I had on who was, you know, the Heisman trophy, uh,
00:21:57.500
candidate running back for Ohio state, you know, went to prison for four years, you know? And so I think
00:22:03.220
the common theme with, with the guests that I have on is that they've been able to handle adversity
00:22:09.380
incredibly well. They've bounced back and made themselves better. And that seems to be, uh, I
00:22:17.080
mean, look, even like, look at the Superbowl, you know, Tom Brady throws, throws these interceptions
00:22:20.760
and then comes back and has one of the greatest fourth quarters of any quarterback in Superbowl history.
00:22:25.560
Right. I mean, great leaders persevere. They understand that things are not always going to go
00:22:30.840
right. They don't get down. They just, they just look at it as a learning experience and opportunity
00:22:36.260
to get better. And they come back even better. And I think that's the common theme amongst every
00:22:40.600
person I've spoken with is that they, I mean, how Elrod, an episode I just released, I mean,
00:22:45.740
the guy got in a car accident and was pronounced dead for six minutes. I mean, I don't know if anyone's
00:22:51.160
faced more adversity than that. I mean, they literally didn't have a pulse. And so I think, uh,
00:22:56.500
seeing people come back from that even better, um, is inspiring to me. And from the feedback I
00:23:01.940
received is inspiring to the, to the listeners of the learning leader show. So what do you see as
00:23:07.240
being the reason for that? Because I think for every success that we see, we can also think of
00:23:12.620
people who have had adversity and they've let it destroy them. So obviously overcoming adversity
00:23:18.700
and taking it as a learning experience, is that something they've learned to do? Is that something
00:23:22.740
within themselves? Where is that coming from? It's probably a combination of both. You know, I,
00:23:27.640
um, I think, I think it's, it's a mindset of how you view tough things or how you view bad things.
00:23:34.980
If, and, and some people they are, I think there are, there's an element of people who have that
00:23:39.840
innately just in them, you know? Um, and then there's, there's others who are constantly,
00:23:46.680
you know, getting better and learning about how to deal with tough things. And so we're, we're all,
00:23:52.160
and we're all obviously learning and getting better. Some people choose to view those tough
00:23:57.760
things in their life as an experience they can learn from. And other people view it and say,
00:24:03.600
well, it's just, you know, with, you know, the one, one of my pet peeves is when somebody says to me,
00:24:08.520
oh, with my luck, you know, it will rain that day. And with my luck, I will. So a common thing that
00:24:15.840
my wife and I do actually have never said this on a podcast, a common thing that we say every day,
00:24:20.200
almost is say with our luck, we will. And then whatever, whatever we say will be an incredibly
00:24:27.360
positive thing, you know? So we, we, we, we are consciously saying with our luck, meaning we are,
00:24:35.640
we're lucky people because we prepare, we work really, really hard and good things are going to
00:24:41.420
happen. And so I think that's, that's the type of mindset that might be different from somebody who
00:24:46.520
says, oh, with my luck, it's going to, you know, it's going to argue our baseball game is going to
00:24:49.820
get rained out, you know, or something like that. And, and I hate that. I really, I just despise it.
00:24:53.620
And when somebody says that to me, a lot of times find myself like almost correcting them. And I have
00:24:58.960
to be careful because, you know, people, people don't want to be corrected all the time, but it does
00:25:02.940
bother me a little bit when people say that. So without trying to get too personal, are there other
00:25:08.340
affirmations that either you're saying and telling yourself to help you feel and be more successful or
00:25:13.680
affirmations that you're hearing some of the leaders that you're interviewing and having
00:25:16.500
conversations with that are, that they're saying and using? I mean, I write in the five minute journal
00:25:20.540
every morning and every night. Have you heard of that? No. So five minute journal is a thing I'd
00:25:26.060
encourage people to look it up. And part of it is writing is, is literally verbalizing and writing
00:25:32.560
down positive affirmations about yourself. And you're also going to write down things that you're
00:25:37.140
grateful for is you can't be hateful if you're grateful, man. And so you, you look at the good things in
00:25:42.920
your life, the things that you're grateful for. Um, do you say, you know, what would make today
00:25:47.160
great? And you answer that question, you put, what are some positive affirmations, things that I,
00:25:51.860
you know, I say about myself every day, cause they become a reality. There's psychological facts.
00:25:57.080
Scientists have said this that prove if you do these things, it literally, the chances of it happening
00:26:02.400
increase. And at the end of the day, you say, you know, what made today great and what could have,
00:26:06.840
you know, what could have happened to make the day better. And it's a very simple practice.
00:26:10.840
I would encourage people to do it, but you, you just, you know, you write in your five minute
00:26:14.460
journal every morning and every night. It's the first thing I do every morning. I drink a big,
00:26:17.860
big glass of water. I write my journal and I work out and I read. And before I go to bed,
00:26:23.720
I'm writing my journal. Um, and my wife and I both do it. And it's something that's made a very
00:26:28.620
positive difference in our lives. That's awesome. Yeah. Isn't there something so incredible about
00:26:35.260
writing your thoughts down? I've, I've, I'm actually doing an experiment right now and I'm calling it
00:26:40.080
Chronicles of an Ordinary Man. And it's basically a story, a day by day story that I'm writing to my
00:26:47.080
kids, but I'm writing about what lessons I'm learning throughout the day and what things are
00:26:51.480
going well and what things I feel like I need to improve on. And the clarity for me that's come
00:26:56.260
from that is incredible. Dude, that's awesome. I love it. Yeah. That's cool. So I'm really curious
00:27:01.900
what your workout is. Um, I, you know, I do CrossFit personally. Is there a workout that you do?
00:27:06.840
Is there, what does that look like when you say you work out and you get up and do that every
00:27:10.220
morning? Yeah. I mean, you know, I've, I worked from, from my background, there was a lot of,
00:27:14.360
um, some of the, a lot of those types of moves I've done, um, Olympic type lifting. Now I don't
00:27:19.640
do as much of that anymore because my body is still, um, it, you know, it was beat up through the
00:27:24.660
years of, of playing, I mean, playing quarterback, I got hit a lot. I played arena football, which the
00:27:29.320
quarterback gets hit a lot. Um, so I, you know, I probably steer clear of some of those Olympic lifts
00:27:35.840
nowadays, but no, I, I go to the gym. I like to do explosive stuff when I can. Uh, I like to make
00:27:41.680
sure my core, my legs are strong. Um, and then I do the, the, probably the regular, you know, upper
00:27:46.980
body stuff that a lot of people do. Um, and then the explosive type plyometric stuff. And then in
00:27:53.060
addition to that, one of my ways I relax is I like to, and I know people think this is probably
00:27:58.260
not a good workout, but it's the way I end my workouts is I get on the elliptical and I read.
00:28:03.300
So I almost do it more so for the reading than I do for the actual elliptical. It's kind of on there.
00:28:07.940
I think elliptical is kind of easy, but I do it because I can kind of relax. I can read, I take
00:28:13.240
notes. Um, I have a, you know, like an iPad with using the Kindle app and I take notes and then
00:28:18.240
that's how I get ideas for creative questions to ask guests or how I find guests, uh, if I read an
00:28:25.620
interesting book. So the reading aspect at the end of the workout is kind of my way of preparing
00:28:30.140
myself for the day. And this is done usually really early in the morning, um, before, before, uh, other
00:28:36.240
people, you know, other people, my family, uh, wake up and then I'm ready for, you know, breakfast in,
00:28:41.720
in, in, in my day. I think it's really easy for guys to consider the physical aspects of,
00:28:48.240
of, you know, strength and, and becoming more resilient and getting tougher. But I'm a huge
00:28:53.780
fan and advocate of strengthening your mind as well. One of the interesting things or experiences
00:28:58.380
that I had in the past couple of weeks, I ran a Spartan race down in Las Vegas and about six
00:29:03.580
miles into this race, my mind was just like playing tricks on me, telling me how tired I was or, um,
00:29:09.720
you know, how, how, how much pain I was in. But at the end of the day, like thinking about it now
00:29:14.340
is that really wasn't the case. It was my mind trying to get me to stop. So what are some of
00:29:18.700
the things that either you do personally or what you have, have seen your guests do to increase
00:29:25.620
their level of mental toughness? Well, first of all, you got to tell your fans to go to order
00:29:31.820
of man.com and read, uh, five reasons every man should compete in a Spartan race. I was reading it
00:29:37.980
as I was preparing to come on your show. Uh, so no, I just wanted to get to it because it's,
00:29:42.300
it's really a well-written and I, I was like, wow, I need to run one of those. I've done one
00:29:46.520
of the ones where you, uh, crawled in the mud. I think it was called a warrior dash actually,
00:29:50.540
but it's probably a little bit, a little bit different. Um, but I'm sorry, what was the
00:29:53.480
question again, man? That was real. No, I appreciate the plug for sure. No, I was talking
00:29:59.060
about what, what do you do or what do you see people do that are successful that they do to
00:30:03.820
increase their mental toughness? Do you ever talk to people and they say they don't have time
00:30:08.580
to read? Oh yeah. All the time. I mean, I know I've mentioned one other pet peeve that
00:30:13.140
is even bigger to me. Probably. I don't have time to read. I have too much stuff going on.
00:30:18.100
Yes, you do. Everyone listening has time to read. If you don't, you are choosing to prioritize
00:30:24.260
something else. So the best thing you could do is, is take time to read. It doesn't even
00:30:32.300
have to be that long, probably as long as you or I read, but I don't think it's out of
00:30:36.720
question to wake up a little early and to spend 20 minutes reading a great book, right? There's so
00:30:41.880
much good information out there and it's so cheap really. And you just buy these books or you could
00:30:46.420
even look online. Right. And so, I mean, I, I've, you've seen so many quotes about people that say
00:30:52.460
that the greatest leaders look at what they do, right? All of them are constantly learning and
00:30:58.060
they're constantly reading. And so the way to build up mental strength is to simply read great
00:31:06.660
text. And, um, you know, I, I could name 50, 50 great books that, that, that could help if you,
00:31:13.820
if you haven't read them so far. And so there's some life changing things out there that come
00:31:17.400
simply from reading a book. So that's, that's the number one way I would say.
00:31:20.560
So without putting you too much on the spot, is there one or two or three books that you're
00:31:25.840
currently reading or have read recently that we should have on our list?
00:31:29.320
Well, I mean, Adam Grant's book called Give and Take is a life changing book for me,
00:31:32.960
why helping others drives our success. So that's, that's the number one book I would tell people
00:31:36.940
to read. I also, uh, and that's all about how, um, Adam Grant has science behind why, uh, givers,
00:31:45.300
people who are, are, who are looking to help others, why they are the most successful people
00:31:50.760
in the world. Um, another book I love is called Smart Cuts by Shane Snow. Shane's, uh, was came on
00:31:56.520
my show, uh, Adam's coming on, uh, in a month, but Shane, uh, I already recorded, we'll be releasing
00:32:01.720
an episode soon, but that his book's called Smart Cuts, how hackers, innovators, and icons, uh,
00:32:07.780
accelerate success, not shortcuts, but smart cuts. It talks a lot about, um, the story,
00:32:15.300
stories and the science again, behind some of the most successful people and how they
00:32:19.440
were able to accelerate success. I love that book. And then one of the classics of all time
00:32:23.220
for me is Good to Great by Jim Collins. I would highly recommend that book for people,
00:32:28.860
especially if you work in a company and maybe you guys are struggling or you need to, you
00:32:32.720
need to do something to make your company better. Um, I'll name one other one. Uh, Walter
00:32:37.140
Isaacson's book, Steve Jobs is a classic and one of my favorites of all time. So, I mean,
00:32:42.100
I could keep going, but, uh, I don't want to go an hour just talking about books.
00:32:46.120
Just talking about that. Well, so I'll make sure that I make, um, all those available on
00:32:51.780
the show notes page so that we can have access to those. And we want to, that way you don't
00:32:55.480
have to remember what they are. You can just go to the show notes page and check them out.
00:32:59.080
So we've learned a lot about leadership and what, what people are doing who are successful.
00:33:03.580
Sometimes it's, it's good or at least entertaining to see what bad leaders are doing.
00:33:07.780
Yeah. Are, are there some things that you've seen out there that, uh, guys that really strive
00:33:12.980
to be leaders who are just not doing a good job and what is it that they're doing that
00:33:16.500
they're maybe struggling with? Um, I, I, I can read how maybe a person in a leadership position
00:33:24.940
or in a upper management position, when you read the way they, they communicate with their
00:33:29.680
team or the people that work for them, you can learn a lot. So here's one example. When,
00:33:35.020
when you see them say, I need you to do whatever that person for the most part is probably not
00:33:44.920
a good leader. When you see someone who writes, we are going to do this or we, you know, need
00:33:53.740
to do this or we are, you know, whatever it is, people who use the pronouns with, of, I need
00:33:58.460
you, you know, uh, I found in my experience just to be aren't as good as leaders, leaders. And I've,
00:34:05.940
I've, I've been around both. Um, I played for great coaches and I played for, for, for coaches
00:34:11.000
who weren't that great. And I think that's one of the biggest differences is, is people get in a
00:34:15.600
kind of an upper level position and they feel like they have some power and then they get a little
00:34:20.280
nervous cause maybe they're insecure and they start saying I and you, and it really bothers me.
00:34:25.420
And I, I made sure, you know, in those positions I've been in at work or wherever, uh, whether I
00:34:30.540
was playing football or in the business world, it was, it was we, you know, I'm, it's not, I don't
00:34:34.960
like saying somebody works for me. I would rather say, you know, we work together. Um, and so when
00:34:41.060
someone says, yeah, he works for me or she works for me, I, that's, that's something that bothers
00:34:45.500
me a little bit. I don't, I don't view them as much as a good leader. I, I like, I've seen some
00:34:49.220
great ones that say, well, some of them say even I work for, for them when, you know, on the,
00:34:53.740
on the, on the, the corporate ladder, so to speak, that the, the boss is, is the boss
00:34:58.440
and he's saying, or she's saying, I actually work for the people that work for me. And so
00:35:02.660
I like that. I like that style of leadership. And I also like the style of leadership that
00:35:06.900
say, yeah, we work together, even in passing, you know, when, when someone's like, Hey, do
00:35:10.720
you know so-and-so? And you're like, Oh yeah, yeah. And, and, and, and a boss will say, yeah,
00:35:15.240
they work for me. And a leader will say, yeah, we work together. You know, just little things
00:35:19.300
like that. I, I found to be a big difference between people who are like bosses and people
00:35:24.840
Or, you know, what's even more interesting too, I guess just as interesting is when you
00:35:28.480
see somebody who says, I, when things are going well and you or they, when things are
00:35:37.500
I've definitely seen that too. And, and vice versa, you know, people who, when things are
00:35:42.220
going poorly are saying, you know what, I need to do better. I need to lead better. I need
00:35:46.240
to get my team going better. And, and, and people who, when then, when it goes well to
00:35:49.340
say, yeah, my team's great. They, they absolutely stepped up and made it happen. And I'm very
00:35:53.900
fortunate to get to work with, with, with great people.
00:35:57.120
Awesome. Well, one of the things that I see a lot with podcasts is as good as they are
00:36:02.020
and as great as however many shows are out there. And I listened to a ton of podcasts,
00:36:05.720
just like it sounds like you do. Sometimes I think we get lulled into this belief that the
00:36:11.260
guests that come on are perfect and that everything's working perfectly. And sometimes like
00:36:15.660
it's nice to know that we're all human. And again, without trying to put you on the spot,
00:36:20.240
is there some things that you feel like, and you alluded to this, I think a little bit earlier
00:36:24.220
that either you're struggling with, or you feel like, Hey, here's something that I feel
00:36:28.280
like I could really improve on and how, and what and how you're doing to, to get there.
00:36:33.440
Yeah. I mean, there's a ton of things. I, I mean, I'm trying to think of, um, you know,
00:36:39.920
I can relate a lot of things to, to when I played and how that, how that relates. But as far as
00:36:44.620
things I need to get better, I mean, I try to analyze those deficiencies in my leadership game,
00:36:49.440
so to speak all the time and, and ask others, you know, what could I be doing better? Um,
00:36:55.540
and sometimes it's something as little as, you know, listen to what the person is saying,
00:36:59.940
instead of just thinking of your next question, right. Uh, putting yourself in, uh, that, that
00:37:07.100
person's shoes and understanding it from their perspective. You know, I talked to Maurice Claret,
00:37:11.680
it was interesting. And Maurice comes from, you know, a, a single parent household in Northeastern
00:37:18.480
Ohio. And I come from, uh, you know, both, you know, my mom and dad are kind of the, the, the
00:37:24.640
guideposts for me of what a marriage should look like. And they, you know, I've been together for
00:37:28.740
quite some time and we live, I'm from Southwest Ohio. And so I have to realize that, you know, um,
00:37:34.520
sometimes people can be quick to judge or, and I've, I've, I've been guilty of this couldn't quit.
00:37:40.460
You can be quick to judge somebody when you don't fully understand where they're coming from or what
00:37:46.560
their background is. Like I had all of this coaching and teaching from both of my parents
00:37:52.600
who were phenomenal, who are phenomenal. Uh, my dad, a very, very successful executive who has taught me
00:37:59.620
so much. And he continues to do it on a, on a daily basis. My mom, the exact same way, helping me
00:38:04.840
constantly. And, uh, there are not everybody has that though. So you, so it's, you can't be quick
00:38:11.320
to judge other people because we all come from different backgrounds. And I've definitely made
00:38:16.620
that mistake before in my life where you're a little bit quick, be like, why didn't they know
00:38:20.940
that? Or why are they stupid with money? Well, maybe nobody taught them about money. Like I was taught,
00:38:26.440
you know, things like that, just little judgments that I feel like, um, I hate that I, I, that I have
00:38:32.180
to admit that I've done that, but I have, you know, um, I, I, I have, and I, I've worked pretty hard
00:38:37.460
to try not to do that and to get better on things when it comes to understanding where we're all coming
00:38:43.400
from. That's a great, that's a great answer. And so I want to talk a little bit more about, you know,
00:38:49.360
with you where you said you had great parents, part of, part of my background is that I didn't have a
00:38:54.920
permanent father figure in the house when I was growing up. I was listening to that. That's,
00:38:57.780
that's your story's incredible, man. I appreciate it. Yeah. But one of the things I always wonder
00:39:03.100
is, you know, what would life look like if it were different? What would life be like if there was
00:39:07.860
somebody like that in my life as I was growing up? And now I'm in the position to be able to do
00:39:13.340
something about it. I'm really curious what you do. Cause we all have heard the phrase,
00:39:17.220
you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with, right? Show me your friends and
00:39:20.860
I'll show you your future. Yeah, exactly. So what are some of the things that you're
00:39:24.760
doing to surround yourselves or yourself with the right kind of people that are going to get you
00:39:30.560
and help you to where you want to go and vice versa, you're going to help them.
00:39:33.740
You know, one of the things, I mean, the main things is, is that's part of why I started the
00:39:36.860
podcast. You know, I, I wanted to be intentional with my actions of reaching out and sometimes in
00:39:43.400
a comfortable way to meet some of the smartest, most creative leaders in the world. Right. And,
00:39:48.820
and they become each one of them become part of, um, they become friends and that's,
00:39:54.260
that's really what I'm searching for. And the cool thing that's happened is friends of mine,
00:39:59.340
not all of them, but, but some of them have really, really responded in a big way to me.
00:40:05.460
And that means more to me than anything. And those people probably will listen even to this episode.
00:40:09.500
It's, it's one that, you know, is not my show, but it's yours. But the way they've responded and said,
00:40:14.520
Hey man, like that's really, really cool. Like I really enjoy that. And there's been others who have
00:40:19.200
completely blown off the show and I don't expect everybody to listen to it. That's not like,
00:40:22.600
you know, what I'm, what I'm out for, but to, to hear the people who really, really enjoy it.
00:40:27.080
And then you hear them trying to make meaningful changes or positive things in their life.
00:40:31.540
I want those people in that closest group of friends. Right. And so the combination of people
00:40:36.480
who are current friends who are now, they feel like they're improving because of your podcast
00:40:40.280
or because of the things that you're doing, the action you're taking. Plus all the people I've met
00:40:45.240
through creating the podcast, whether it's the guest and friends of theirs and things like that.
00:40:51.200
So that's, it's been, um, I didn't know what to expect when doing this. And that's been a huge,
00:40:56.520
huge bonus for me. It has. And I've had the same experience to be able to reach out to guys like
00:41:02.360
you and other, other guys that I've had on the show who have just been able to have incredible
00:41:06.040
conversations with. It's really cool, man. I love it. I love it.
00:41:09.000
So you said that you've had to reach out to people in uncomfortable ways. And one of the
00:41:14.340
things that I think is so important that as men, we find ways to be okay with uncomfortable,
00:41:21.840
like risk something daily, like try something hard that pushes you outside of your comfort zone.
00:41:27.640
And I'm sure you would agree with that. Are there some things that you would say that would help
00:41:31.640
the guys that are listening to this get outside of their comfort zone and push past that so they can
00:41:36.260
have a life better than what they have now? I would set small goals on things that, uh,
00:41:42.060
you know, you'd be uncomfortable with whatever those, whatever that may be. So what I was alluding
00:41:47.520
to was, you know, I've sent a massive amount of cold emails, uh, emails to people who have no idea who I
00:41:54.180
am. Um, I've tried to, you know, write them thoughtfully. We're using uncommon commonalities,
00:42:00.320
things like that to, to get them to respond. And I've been fortunate that, that some of them have
00:42:04.760
worked and that's uncomfortable though. And there's a, there's a fear of rejection there,
00:42:09.220
or someone's going to say, who are you? Which I've got, I've gotten that, or you're just going to,
00:42:13.360
or you're just going to get ignored or you get the person who says, you know, show me your numbers
00:42:17.360
or something like that. When I'm like, I don't have numbers. My show, my show hasn't even launched
00:42:21.520
yet, man. You know? So like, I think, I think, but I said, I always set small goals literally every
00:42:27.320
single day to say, you know, before I go to bed, I'm going to do the, this, this one or two things.
00:42:32.420
And so as I was building the podcast, it was, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to reach out to,
00:42:37.000
you know, five people that I've never spoken to, whether it's, and usually it's been email or,
00:42:42.920
or social media or whatever. I don't have phone numbers for these people. And, um, regardless of
00:42:48.240
what they say. And if you do that seven days a week, that's 35 cold emails you've sent each week.
00:42:56.180
And so, you know, do the math. You've been doing that for months. You're, you have the opportunity
00:43:01.800
to then, uh, put together a potentially good podcast for, for the example I'm using. And then
00:43:07.600
those people then obviously, I mean, I don't know about you, but for, and I'm sure this is the case
00:43:12.140
for you, but each person that I've talked to, you know, we, we talk about, you know, is there,
00:43:17.220
are there other people that you might think would be a good fit for the show that would enjoy it,
00:43:20.760
you know, just like you did. I've had, I, so I've gotten more guests from referrals than from
00:43:25.800
cold email. So that's the other positive thing from it, but that's uncomfortable, man. Like
00:43:29.640
that's something that's outside of most people's comfort zone. Cause you're, you're, you're offering
00:43:33.800
yourself up for rejection. But when you get the little success, it's like, it's, it's, you're like,
00:43:40.580
Oh, I got, I want more, right. I want to do that. I want to do it again. And that kind of drives you.
00:43:45.040
So you just got to set the small goals. So you feel the small success and then you want,
00:43:48.260
I'm going to go get more. And that's what I would encourage, whatever, whatever it is,
00:43:52.220
that's a little bit uncomfortable, whether it's like, you know, go to a Toastmasters or do some
00:43:55.860
public speaking, just do it one time. And you'll see that person looking at you and they nod,
00:44:00.460
right. They just nod at one thing you say and you're like, Oh wow, I'm actually, maybe I'm good
00:44:04.500
at this. Well, you're going to, you're going to continue to do it. And that's a, that's a skill
00:44:08.640
that we all need to get better at. And you're so right. I mean, that one success that you can have
00:44:13.980
would totally overcome 20, 30, 40, a hundred of those experiences where somebody ignored you or
00:44:20.500
nothing happened or you fell short. It just takes that one success to keep you going.
00:44:25.460
Definitely, man. That's what it's all about. That's why you said the small goals and hit them
00:44:32.300
Well, so based on what I've known about you, which is literally not very much over the past
00:44:36.140
month in our limited conversation, I know that I can tell that you've got passion for leadership
00:44:40.900
and all the things that you're doing. So I'm really curious what goals you have and,
00:44:45.500
and some of the thoughts that you have. What's, what's, what does the future hold for you?
00:44:53.700
Or anything, podcast or career, whatever it may be.
00:44:56.880
Yeah. I mean, you know, I said, I wrote down goals, um, prior to, to launching it. You know,
00:45:01.280
I wanted to be featured at number one in the new and noteworthy and we're, we're hovering around
00:45:04.980
that place right now, uh, in iTunes. Um, I wanted to receive 100 emails from people saying that my
00:45:12.260
show has helped them. Um, that's a, that's a stretch goal. And so, uh, I hope I, you know,
00:45:17.740
that, that happens over time because, uh, people will, are more than happy to write a review,
00:45:22.440
but they, it's, it's another thing to sit down and write an email. So it's cool to, to, to, to,
00:45:26.480
to see that happen. I said other goals as far as growth of the show and things like that.
00:45:30.960
Cause that's my, this is my, this is my, my, like I said, my passion project that I really
00:45:35.120
wanted to do. And I want it to be, um, I, I want to continue to, uh, get feedback from people that
00:45:43.000
it's helped them in their life. And so that's the main, those are my main goals is to continue to
00:45:47.780
receive feedback from both friends and strangers that say, you know, I never heard of you and I
00:45:54.560
love your show and I love the way that you seem prepared, but you also are willing to react in the
00:45:59.500
moment. Like that, that type of feedback is, are, are the goals that I've set for myself to receive
00:46:04.520
that and to continually get better. And so if I want somebody to say, Hey, I listened to episode
00:46:08.440
number five and then I listened to episode number 50. Oh my gosh, you are, you know, it's night and
00:46:14.140
day. You're, you're, you're, you're so much better that, you know, that shows that I'm learning and
00:46:18.000
I'm improving. And so I'm, I'm, I'm really working hard to do that. Well, I'm glad you've been on the
00:46:22.960
show because that's what our community, that's what the order man community is all about. So if you're
00:46:27.560
listening and you feel like this has been useful for you, or you listen to the learning leader show
00:46:32.640
and you feel like that's been useful, we've got to get Ryan to at least a hundred emails. That's
00:46:37.180
the goal, right? Yeah. Yeah. Just, just write me and you can do it even just to my Gmail, Ryan Hawk
00:46:41.880
one, two Ryan Hawk, 12 at gmail.com. I would love to hear any type of feedback or I'm same thing on
00:46:46.700
Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12, just to, just to feel, uh, uh, let me know what you think because I'm, uh,
00:46:52.780
a very, um, I love the feedback, right? I read all the reviews in iTunes. I, and I want, um, coaching
00:46:59.300
and I want to see what people like and what they don't. And so I can fix the things people don't
00:47:03.700
like and I'll continue doing the things that people do like. Awesome. Well, outside of your email
00:47:08.800
address and Twitter, what, if somebody wants to learn more about what you're doing with your podcast,
00:47:13.540
how do we connect with you there? Yeah. Learning leader show.com it's a right there or Ryan Hawk.net
00:47:18.700
will launch a show on iTunes, uh, as well. So you can, uh, I just like you, you know,
00:47:23.640
ratings and reviews and, uh, and iTunes is a big deal. And so I love if you've, you listen to the
00:47:29.700
show and you like the show, um, you know, go to, you know, write a review and, and, and rate it for
00:47:35.460
me. Cause that's, uh, that's how I learned. Well, we'll make sure again, we have all of those links
00:47:40.160
in the show notes to be able to connect with you and learn more about what we talked, all those books
00:47:43.660
and the links and everything that we went through. Cause we went through a ton of information,
00:47:46.640
but Ryan, I appreciate you so much being on the show today. Hey man, Ryan, I really appreciate
00:47:50.700
you having me, man. I hope you enjoyed that interview today. If I can, I'd like you to ask
00:47:55.960
you to rally around the mission of Ryan Hawk's podcast with regards to leadership and reach
00:48:01.360
out, connect with him. And again, if you want to do that, you can find his contact information
00:48:05.840
and of course other resources from his show at order of man.com slash zero zero eight. Next week,
00:48:11.400
I've got an interview lined up with a man who's all about helping people with their relationships
00:48:15.260
with their significant others. And guys, if you're anything like me, when it comes to me
00:48:20.180
and my relationship with my spouse, we, as men can use all the help we can get. Make sure
00:48:25.340
you don't miss that by subscribing to the show at order of man.com slash iTunes. And while you're
00:48:30.380
there, please, if you would show your support for the show by leaving us a rating and review.
00:48:35.120
Thanks again for being here today. And I will look forward to being with you here next week.
00:48:39.440
Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life
00:48:44.900
and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.