Order of Man - OoM 023： Brett McKay ｜ Perfecting the Art of Manliness

00:00:00.000 Today I'm excited to have a conversation with a man who has been a big motivating factor for me starting The Order of Man.

00:00:05.400 Mr. Brett McKay with The Art of Manliness joins me to talk about how we as men can return to our roots

00:00:09.880 and recreate some of the rites of passages we once participated in,

00:00:13.220 some common struggles that we're all working through,

00:00:15.400 a few of the men we should be emulating,

00:00:16.980 and what it takes to be a man in modern society.

00:00:20.080 You're a man of action.

00:00:21.560 You live life to the fullest.

00:00:23.020 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:25.680 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time.

00:00:29.180 Every time, you are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:35.480 This is your life.

00:00:36.600 This is who you are.

00:00:37.960 This is who you will become.

00:00:39.660 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:45.960 Guys, what is up?

00:00:47.060 Welcome back to The Order of Man podcast where we talk about all things manly.

00:00:50.820 I've got a great one lined up for you today as always.

00:00:53.540 Probably one of my most favorite episodes to date.

00:00:55.860 And it's not just because of who my guest is, but it's because of the depth of our conversation

00:01:00.540 into the world of masculinity and manliness.

00:01:03.340 But before I get too much further into the episode, I want to first say thanks to those

00:01:07.260 of you who have let me know what you think about the show by leaving a rating and review.

00:01:11.740 AJ1 says,

00:01:13.180 Why didn't I find this sooner?

00:01:14.600 Very inspiring.

00:01:15.660 Ryan shares values with that of my own.

00:01:17.780 Episode with Boss Root and his epic.

00:01:19.700 AJ, thanks for letting us know what you think about the show.

00:01:22.140 Now, I did have someone say about the show that it, quote, can come off a tad one-sided.

00:01:27.380 Many of the traits he describes could be applied to women as well and should reflect our society

00:01:31.620 rather than half of it.

00:01:33.260 Guys, that's true, but I only speak from experience.

00:01:35.840 I know a lot about being a guy and absolutely nothing about being a woman. 0.54

00:01:39.820 I am not going to water down the show.

00:01:41.860 This is for you guys, the struggles, the worries, the concerns, the strategies, the insights

00:01:46.140 into helping us as men succeed in life.

00:01:48.960 So I hope that you're enjoying the show.

00:01:50.420 One other thing, if you do want to have a conversation with me, the best place to do that is on Periscope

00:01:56.700 if you're not familiar with the live streaming app, Periscope.

00:01:59.960 Just find me at Order of Man on the Periscope app and let's chat.

00:02:03.240 I try to be really engaging with anyone who joins me on the scope,

00:02:05.540 so I'm looking forward to hearing from each and every one of you.

00:02:08.160 All right, as always, the show notes for this show are at orderofman.com slash 023.

00:02:13.040 As I was listening through this episode, I realized that there's a ton of resources that we talk about,

00:02:17.800 so you'll want to head over there for reference.

00:02:19.160 Again, that's orderofman.com slash 023.

00:02:22.360 Now, let me introduce you to our guest today.

00:02:24.620 Our guest today is Brett McKay.

00:02:26.100 Brett, the founder of Art of Manliness, started the blog while attending law school

00:02:28.960 and has quickly grown the site to become the largest independent men's magazine on the web.

00:02:34.080 Brett will be the first to tell you that he is not the expert when it comes to being men,

00:02:38.080 but rather he is just sharing some insights into manliness that have worked well for him.

00:02:42.520 He's also the author of several books, including The Art of Manliness, 30 Days to a Better Man,

00:02:46.880 and heading out on your own.

00:02:48.760 You can find him blogging and podcasting at Art of Manliness,

00:02:51.940 where they cover a broad spectrum of topics from things like how to poop like a samurai

00:02:56.140 to Semper Virilis, a roadmap to manhood in the 21st century, which we do cover in today's episode.

00:03:03.540 Brett McKay, so excited to have you.

00:03:04.920 Thanks for joining us today.

00:03:05.860 Thanks for having me, Ryan.

00:03:06.980 We're going to have a great conversation.

00:03:09.040 I think you know because we've talked briefly and probably a lot of my audience knows that

00:03:12.940 you and Art of Manliness has been a big inspiration for me starting Order of Man,

00:03:16.520 so I'm glad to finally be having our conversation.

00:03:18.880 Yeah, me too.

00:03:19.380 It's going to be a lot of fun.

00:03:20.380 Yeah.

00:03:20.760 So the first thing I want to know is how does a law student...

00:03:24.080 Now, did you take the bar?

00:03:25.380 That's the first thing, I guess.

00:03:26.420 Did you pass the bar?

00:03:27.380 And are you an attorney?

00:03:28.440 No, I actually didn't take the bar because by the time I had graduated from law school,

00:03:32.600 I was earning enough revenue from the site that I could make this a full-time thing.

00:03:37.060 So that's what I did.

00:03:37.760 So I didn't take the bar.

00:03:38.640 I'm not a licensed attorney and I'm glad I'm not.

00:03:41.860 Yeah.

00:03:42.260 Yeah.

00:03:42.540 It sounds like you had a major correction or a course alteration in your life.

00:03:46.940 So tell me a little bit about that.

00:03:48.000 How does a law student get into what you're doing now with Art of Manliness?

00:03:51.060 Sure.

00:03:51.480 So I started the blog back in 2008 while I was a second-year law student.

00:03:57.180 And the reason why I started it was, here's the story.

00:04:02.000 This is how it went down.

00:04:02.720 I still have the moleskin that I wrote these notes in.

00:04:06.020 I was in Borders looking at the men's magazines, just killing time one night.

00:04:10.540 And I was reading the headlines on these magazines and just realized, man, every month it's the

00:04:14.680 same thing.

00:04:15.380 It's like, how do you get six-pack abs?

00:04:17.100 It's sex tips, a lifestyle that no average man could afford.

00:04:22.460 And you got to go on these exotic vacations and wear these $5,000 polo shirts.

00:04:28.060 And I was like, you know what?

00:04:29.100 I don't resonate.

00:04:30.140 This isn't for me.

00:04:32.320 And so I decided right then and there, I was like, you know, it'd be cool if there's

00:04:35.460 a men's magazine that was for the average guy.

00:04:39.680 And so that's what I did.

00:04:41.160 And I decided right then and there, I started taking out some notes and started the blog.

00:04:45.760 You know, Domain Costs 10 Bucks.

00:04:48.100 Yeah, cheap, right?

00:04:49.080 Yeah.

00:04:49.400 Art of Manliness.

00:04:50.320 Hosting at the time was $20.

00:04:52.760 And started it.

00:04:54.480 And I just shared it with some of my friends.

00:04:56.520 I thought it'd be sort of fun.

00:04:57.400 I didn't really think it was going to be a business.

00:05:00.160 I thought it was going to be sort of a creative outlet for me while I was in law school.

00:05:03.420 And what happened was I found out that a lot of other men felt the same way that I

00:05:07.360 did.

00:05:08.460 And within three months, I guess March, that's when we really started picking up and boatloads

00:05:15.260 of traffic started coming in.

00:05:17.180 And ever since it was like off the races since then.

00:05:20.180 And here we are, 2015.

00:05:23.120 And this is what I do full time.

00:05:24.960 Yeah, I know.

00:05:25.480 As I started Order of Man, I've had a lot of success as well.

00:05:28.000 And I think part of that is because my message and your message and a lot of other guys, what

00:05:31.820 they're doing now is really resonating with people.

00:05:33.680 I'd be really curious about some of the pushback.

00:05:36.180 You know, I haven't got a ton of it, but I know that there's people out there that think

00:05:39.880 maybe misunderstand what it is we're trying to accomplish when it comes to defining masculinity

00:05:44.900 and helping men become more manly.

00:05:47.060 Have you gotten much pushback?

00:05:48.180 And if so, what do you run across?

00:05:49.860 You know, I mean, the pushback comes from all across the range.

00:05:53.640 You know, I've gotten pushback from feminist types, but surprisingly not that much because 1.00

00:06:00.180 they just I don't bother them.

00:06:01.600 They don't bother me.

00:06:03.300 Right.

00:06:03.780 Stay in your separate corners.

00:06:04.840 Stay in my separate corners.

00:06:05.940 And there's that.

00:06:07.820 And then also you get pushback from people who just like think of the idea of having a 0.98

00:06:10.940 site to help you be a better man is just dumb. 0.97

00:06:14.040 Right. 0.99

00:06:14.200 Because like, you know, supposedly becoming a man is just something you're just that just

00:06:17.440 happens naturally, which isn't the case.

00:06:20.380 This is not the case.

00:06:21.200 It's happened throughout time and throughout cultures.

00:06:24.020 So, yeah, you get that pushback and then you just get pushback just from people who think 0.85

00:06:27.840 what you're doing is dumb no matter what.

00:06:29.300 I mean, you could be doing something really awesome, like curing cancer and people would 0.99

00:06:33.760 still say it's dumb what you're doing.

00:06:35.020 So you get those types, too. 0.69

00:06:36.580 Yeah.

00:06:36.940 There's nothing you can say or do.

00:06:38.240 Yeah.

00:06:39.120 So, yeah, I mean, not surprisingly too much pushback.

00:06:41.980 So how do we one of the things you said is that you don't just develop into a man.

00:06:46.120 Obviously, there's being a male, which some guys are just were just born being male.

00:06:50.460 Right.

00:06:50.660 But there's a difference between a male and a man.

00:06:52.680 And so you say we don't develop into that naturally.

00:06:55.040 How do we develop that?

00:06:56.740 And then what does that look like?

00:06:57.700 And what are we even trying to develop ourselves into?

00:07:00.260 Sure.

00:07:00.420 So this is something if you look at the anthropological studies, we did a whole series about this last

00:07:06.700 year, looking at the anthropology and the sociology and psychology of masculinity.

00:07:11.380 If you look across time and across cultures, most cultures, and there's a few exceptions,

00:07:17.080 but the exceptions just should prove the rule, how ubiquitous this is.

00:07:20.760 Becoming a man is a status that a male earns.

00:07:25.500 The way you gain that status of man is, well, it's going to vary from culture to culture.

00:07:30.600 But for the most of human history, gaining the status of man meant you were able to be a

00:07:36.240 provider for your family, for your tribe.

00:07:39.040 That separated you from the boys, right?

00:07:40.840 If you contributed more to the collective or communal pot than you took out, you were

00:07:46.180 a producer, you weren't a consumer, then you were a man.

00:07:49.380 Boys just, they're like children, right?

00:07:51.700 They don't really contribute anything to the household economy.

00:07:54.700 They might try to do chores.

00:07:56.260 But I don't know.

00:07:57.000 I always call when my kids do chores, it's helpfully unhelpful because it makes it worse.

00:08:03.760 But you have to let them do it so they learn.

00:08:05.860 But yeah, that's what kids...

00:08:06.200 And I talk about the differences between consumers and producers.

00:08:09.740 Yeah.

00:08:09.840 And in this context, it's not...

00:08:11.060 I mean, kids aren't necessarily just a consumer.

00:08:13.280 There's a lot of benefits to having children.

00:08:14.860 But I think that kind of articulates the point.

00:08:16.720 Exactly.

00:08:17.820 You...

00:08:18.500 The other role was protector, right?

00:08:21.100 So you had to be able to stand up for your family, protect your tribe.

00:08:25.700 And then there was procreate, which is have children, sire, progeny, continue to continue the legacy.

00:08:32.520 And yeah, you had to gain these status.

00:08:36.480 You had to meet certain either rites of achievement or rites of passages.

00:08:40.900 And it was like rites of...

00:08:41.580 Everyone talks about rites of passages where it's like, yeah, you go through a lot of primitive tribes, primitive, let's say traditional to BPC.

00:08:47.960 They have rites of passages where a boy will go through it.

00:08:51.040 They learn the secrets of being a man and then they have to go through maybe some sort of physical ordeal.

00:08:56.180 And then they gain the status of man.

00:08:59.080 So that's a rite of passage.

00:09:00.700 Rites of achievement is that you have to do certain things to obtain the status of man.

00:09:05.440 And so in America, for example, there was a time when getting your first car was a rite of achievement.

00:09:13.520 And that was sort of one of the steps to becoming a man or getting your first job or having your first six, your first kiss or first date.

00:09:23.800 Those are rites of achievement.

00:09:25.380 Nowadays, we don't really emphasize those too much anymore.

00:09:28.600 And I think as a consequence of decline of rites of achievement, decline of rites of passages, people or a lot of men, you have a lot of men who are in their 20s or 30s, sometimes even 40s and 50s thinking, am I really a man?

00:09:43.480 I don't know if I'm a man.

00:09:45.220 So, yeah, that's the thing.

00:09:46.620 And the difference between men and women is that women, as the anthropologists would say, is that, well, women have sort of this physical manifestation that they've become a woman, right?

00:09:56.440 So when they have their first period, they are a woman. 0.96

00:10:00.620 They can have children and that's done. 1.00

00:10:03.800 They don't need this sort of rite of passage or this ordeal because they already have one built in.

00:10:09.160 Men have to create one for themselves. 0.99

00:10:11.540 You know, I think rite of passage is important.

00:10:13.400 There's a few examples in my life of things that I consider that I've gone through.

00:10:16.800 Military training is one.

00:10:17.960 There's some other examples.

00:10:19.020 In fact, I think you just did a podcast maybe just the last couple of days.

00:10:22.860 I mean, you talked about rite of passages.

00:10:24.580 Why do those seem to be disappearing or going away for men, in your opinion?

00:10:29.260 Well, it's just a manifestation of modernity. 0.73

00:10:33.180 Like we think that sort of stuff is silly.

00:10:35.420 We don't really think through a magical worldview anymore.

00:10:38.820 And I think we miss something from that.

00:10:40.800 And what we take away from that is sort of meaning and a little bit of romanticism.

00:10:47.180 And now we just look at things just solely through the scientific lens.

00:10:50.680 And there's nothing wrong with science.

00:10:51.560 I think science is fantastic, but when it's void of any sort of, I wouldn't say superstition,

00:10:58.100 but some sort of ritual that gives something more.

00:11:02.020 I think a lot of it's just like we think it's silly and it's pointless.

00:11:05.540 And we think of them as sort of empty movements or empty words that don't really have any meaning.

00:11:12.140 And it's not that the nature of ritual is that it's empty or they don't mean anything.

00:11:17.260 It's that we don't give it that meaning that it could have.

00:11:20.560 It's on us to give it that meaning.

00:11:22.520 So yeah, I think that's the big thing.

00:11:23.760 We just don't have time for it anymore in our modern world.

00:11:27.540 So if it's important, what are some things in your example, maybe even in your own personal life that you've gone through that seems to be a rite of achievement or a rite of passage?

00:11:34.620 Or what are you seeing other guys going through or creating that can bring some of that back?

00:11:39.480 Yeah, that's a great question.

00:11:40.960 So my own personal life, my rites of passage, I'm LDS.

00:11:44.520 I served a two-year mission for my church.

00:11:47.580 And that was definitely a rite of passage for me.

00:11:50.540 Yeah.

00:11:50.880 Because within the Mormon community, men who go on a mission, they come back, you're treated differently.

00:11:57.860 You're given leadership responsibilities.

00:11:59.920 And you learn a lot during the process.

00:12:01.900 Even when I got back from my mission, my future in-laws said, boy, Brett's really manned up.

00:12:09.320 Interesting.

00:12:10.180 There's a difference.

00:12:11.320 So there was that.

00:12:12.380 And then rites of achievement, or you can say it's a rite of passage.

00:12:15.960 Marriage is a rite of passage, a ritual you go through on that path to becoming a man.

00:12:22.380 And then having kids definitely changes how you look at yourself and how others view you as well.

00:12:29.180 And so, I mean, those things sort of happen naturally.

00:12:31.180 But there's people who are being a bit more proactive and trying to recreate rites of passage in their own life.

00:12:40.020 So there's groups of men getting together, men's groups, and they'll have some sort of like wilderness expedition retreat.

00:12:48.200 And they'll do stuff there.

00:12:49.620 And if that's your thing, that's fantastic if it works for you.

00:12:53.420 Another interesting thing is you're seeing a revival, a bit of a revival amongst traditional fraternal organizations like the Freemasons.

00:13:01.020 Freemasons, they've been on the decline for the past forever, basically, for the past few decades.

00:13:08.660 But you're seeing a surge of young men between the ages of 20 and 40 who are starting to join.

00:13:15.320 Because what they see there is this organization that has a ritual.

00:13:19.200 It's a rite of passage above masculinity that they can go through and they can take part in.

00:13:26.100 And it's the same sort of ritual that men like Teddy Roosevelt, George Washington, Ben Franklin, they took part in that as well.

00:13:33.840 And so they're able to connect to that.

00:13:36.400 So those are a few ways.

00:13:37.180 If you're a part of a faith, there's probably some sort of rite of passage there for you, if not a built-in sort of organic rite of passage.

00:13:44.560 I'm sure their church is trying to create men's groups where they can create that sort of environment for that.

00:13:49.200 And there's also just fraternal organizations that are already there, men's groups that you can join.

00:13:53.520 And then you can be even more creative and create it for your own family, rite of passage for your son when he reaches a certain age.

00:14:02.100 I have an acquaintance, his rite of passage for his son, or one of them is when his son turns 10, his son can go anywhere in the world.

00:14:10.260 Really?

00:14:10.660 Yeah.

00:14:11.560 That's pretty cool.

00:14:12.280 But he has to work for it and save up for it and plan for it.

00:14:15.380 It's not just like he gets to go anywhere.

00:14:17.000 The kid actually invests time and money and energy and thinking to get to that thing.

00:14:23.500 Right, right.

00:14:24.080 So I think that's kind of cool.

00:14:25.260 So what's – go ahead.

00:14:26.940 And then when he gets there, I guess he's going to teach him some sort of stuff that's age appropriate about being a man.

00:14:32.860 What is the draw for men in some of these rite of passages?

00:14:36.060 If they're making more of an effort, concerted effort to bring some of these back, is it the draw of accomplishing hard things, getting over tough stuff?

00:14:44.980 Because I look at the things in my life that I look at rite of passages.

00:14:48.040 One was finishing up military basic training.

00:14:50.600 Even some of these like Spartan events that I've done in the past are in a way for me rite of passages because I have this sense of accomplishment when I get done.

00:14:58.060 Is that the draw or is there something else to it?

00:15:00.060 I think there's something else to it, just a deeper psychological yearning.

00:15:05.320 They want to feel – they want an event that is imbued with meaning that signifies I'm making progress in life.

00:15:13.680 Ah, right.

00:15:14.320 And we don't really have that nowadays.

00:15:15.920 So I think that's what they're looking for.

00:15:17.960 So I want to go to this because we hear a lot – and I hear this a lot and I even think to a degree there's a lot of truth to it –

00:15:24.260 that there is a threat against masculinity and that masculinity is going by the wayside or it isn't as stressed or as valuable or as important.

00:15:32.420 Do you agree with that?

00:15:33.720 Well, I mean the thing is that modernity is making masculinity obsolete.

00:15:38.780 Everyone – it's just the nature of modernity.

00:15:41.160 People always want to gripe it.

00:15:42.360 Well, it's sort of this active process like people just want to get rid of masculinity.

00:15:46.180 No, it's like the nature of modernity.

00:15:48.020 It's just what's happening, right?

00:15:49.080 We no longer – men have traditionally been protectors, providers, procreators throughout time.

00:15:55.880 Well, we really don't need all men to be protectors anymore, right?

00:16:00.340 Right, right.

00:16:00.900 Not to the same degree of level.

00:16:01.640 Not to the same degree of level.

00:16:02.840 Like most men – and because we live in a very safe world, right?

00:16:06.220 Like if you go back thousands of years, there was a good chance that you were going to die by the hand of another human being.

00:16:12.380 Sure, right.

00:16:13.160 That makes sense.

00:16:13.520 But it's gotten safer.

00:16:14.340 And today we live in America and 1% of the population serve in the military.

00:16:20.280 And of that 1% that serve in the military, like 1% will see combat.

00:16:24.460 And the reason of that is technology has been able to, I don't know, exponentially increase the force that we're able to apply with just a few people.

00:16:36.900 Right, right.

00:16:37.420 Leveraging, right?

00:16:38.160 Leveraging, exactly.

00:16:38.600 That's what I was looking for.

00:16:39.380 The same goes with providing.

00:16:40.900 I mean, you know, you hadn't – in ancient times, you had to go out and hunt or, you know, work hard in the farm and all that stuff.

00:16:48.480 Well, then you can just go to like the Whole Foods across the street and your meat's nicely packaged.

00:16:53.740 You know, like you don't need to really be a provider in that sort of visceral sense anymore.

00:16:58.800 Sure, you have to earn money and things like that.

00:17:00.360 But a lot of the jobs today, right, that are in our information economy, I mean, they really – most of them can be done by a man or a woman equally well.

00:17:10.400 Right?

00:17:11.020 Because it's just like brain power.

00:17:13.000 And, you know, a female accountant could do probably just as well of a job as a male accountant. 1.00

00:17:17.200 There's no – we don't have a lot of jobs today that require physical brute force.

00:17:22.900 Of course, we do have – there are blue-collar jobs, trade jobs that require – but those are on the decline because we're shifting to an economy that doesn't require – or doesn't need that as much anymore.

00:17:34.760 So when people say there's like this threat against – I mean, it's – I don't think it's like an active thing.

00:17:41.600 It's just the nature of progress.

00:17:44.820 We even get – this is kind of getting to sci-fi stuff too.

00:17:48.080 You can even get to like the procreator realm, right?

00:17:50.740 Science has made it possible they can take a stem cell from a female, create a sperm cell, and then create – and then they can basically join that sperm cell with an egg to create a human being.

00:18:04.740 Now, they haven't done this because that would be, I think, illegal under –

00:18:07.660 Illegal at this point.

00:18:08.920 But the idea – they don't need men. 0.78

00:18:11.140 Like they could – they can make a world where they don't need men genetically, right, to produce children. 1.00

00:18:19.360 It's crazy.

00:18:20.340 So there's this great – well, I was going to say there's this great line from Nassim Taleb.

00:18:23.920 He wrote books like Anti-Fragile and The Black Swan.

00:18:27.160 It's a great line.

00:18:28.180 He says, the opposite of manliness isn't cowardice.

00:18:32.200 The opposite of manliness is technology, right?

00:18:35.280 So like technology is making a lot of what we sort of revere as masculinity obsolete.

00:18:40.480 And what's interesting too is I think it's men who are doing – men are making themselves obsolete.

00:18:46.600 So what's the importance and why have the conversation?

00:18:49.540 Is it worth having and to what degree have the conversation about this, quote, return to masculinity?

00:18:54.560 Yeah, I think it is worth having because, look, I've said all this sort of like this doomsday stuff.

00:18:58.980 It's probably never going to happen or if it does happen, it's not going to happen for like hundreds of years.

00:19:03.060 So we've got to deal with the here and now.

00:19:05.780 There are a lot of men out there who are looking for meaning.

00:19:10.800 They're looking for purpose, looking for connection in a world that hasn't provided them an alternative.

00:19:17.240 And here's the thing.

00:19:17.720 We've tried to create alternatives to masculinity for men.

00:19:21.000 Like you've got to become the new man.

00:19:22.380 We're sort of like soft and new agey.

00:19:24.760 And it hasn't worked though, right?

00:19:27.040 No one picks up because it's not speaking to – the idea is that, well, we have this new world where we don't need really manly men anymore.

00:19:33.820 So let's just turn them into women. 1.00

00:19:35.440 Well, that's not going to happen.

00:19:37.500 Yeah, it's not genuine or authentic to the nature of who we are.

00:19:40.600 It's like a lot – I mean I'm sure there's some men – like again, gender – they always say that gender is on a spectrum.

00:19:45.660 Some men are more feminine than masculine.

00:19:48.040 Some women are more masculine than feminine. 1.00

00:19:50.280 I'm sure there's some guys who could just roll into that new role where they're soft, sensitive.

00:19:54.840 And that's fine.

00:19:55.740 Great.

00:19:56.480 But I think a lot of men, that's not going to happen.

00:19:58.780 So what do you do for these guys who you don't have an ideal of masculinity that they can aspire to, that motivates them, that motivates them to contribute to the larger society, to contribute to their family?

00:20:11.760 What do you have for them?

00:20:12.960 And so what I've been trying to do with the art of manliness and what you are and other websites you're trying to do is like create that vision that resonates with men who want to feel masculine.

00:20:23.940 They want to do something with this inherent talent, this inherent drive that they have to do something good.

00:20:31.240 And we're trying to provide that for them.

00:20:33.460 You know, you've got – obviously, you've got hundreds of thousands of followers and subscribers and people reading the information that you're putting out.

00:20:39.720 What is a reoccurring trend or concern or thought?

00:20:43.380 What is most of the feedback that you're receiving that guys are struggling with?

00:20:48.160 You know, it just depends on where they are in life.

00:20:51.860 I mean, I think a lot of guys are just looking for direction in life, right?

00:20:56.080 Because we live in a world where we don't really – there was a time in our culture where you had direction.

00:21:01.600 You had a church giving you direction.

00:21:03.780 You lived in a small community that provided you direction, what you should do.

00:21:07.640 We don't have that anymore for the most part.

00:21:10.300 Most people don't have that.

00:21:11.680 And so they're looking for something.

00:21:13.860 They're just sort of directionless, rudderless, aimless.

00:21:16.520 And so, yeah, I mean, that's the thing that when they – when I get letters from guys, they say they find the site.

00:21:23.100 And it's just sort of a breath of fresh air because it kind of gives them – you know, we don't – I don't try to be like this guru.

00:21:28.280 It's like, here's what – this is – if you do this, you'll be awesome.

00:21:30.800 Like, I'm just telling people, like, here's what I've done in my life.

00:21:33.620 It's worked for me.

00:21:34.700 If it works for you, fantastic.

00:21:36.280 And a lot of guys, they read that and they give it a try and it's like, man, it's helping me out.

00:21:39.620 And I'm finally getting some direction.

00:21:41.720 Then I can go off and figure out what I'm going to do with my life now with that sort of jump start.

00:21:47.120 So that's the big thing.

00:21:47.880 That's sort of that lack of purpose.

00:21:49.580 Yeah, and I run across that too.

00:21:50.820 I mean, guys that feel stuck or they feel like they don't have that purpose.

00:21:53.620 The other one I run across a lot is confidence.

00:21:55.280 There's a lot of confidence issues is what I've seen.

00:21:58.680 And so what do you say to somebody who maybe is struggling with direction or confidence in their lives

00:22:03.820 and some things that they can do to start moving forward, to get on a path?

00:22:08.540 Sure.

00:22:08.820 I mean, I think the biggest thing for confidence or direct – it's like just do something.

00:22:14.380 Just move, right?

00:22:15.920 Because there's this tendency where people have to do this navel-gazing where they think that, okay,

00:22:21.660 if I find my passion or if I find – if I journal enough or I meditate enough or I go on a trip around the world,

00:22:28.180 something will just magically come to me and I'll figure out what I was here on earth to do.

00:22:32.620 In my experience, that doesn't work that way.

00:22:35.520 You start working.

00:22:38.060 You start doing something.

00:22:39.580 It's ever so small.

00:22:40.900 The success that comes from that, the feeling you get from that builds upon each other.

00:22:45.320 And then during the doing, you'll discover your purpose, right?

00:22:49.500 When I started The Art of Manliness, I didn't think before I started The Art of Manliness,

00:22:53.340 well, I really think I'm called to start a men's site.

00:22:58.340 This is my higher purpose.

00:22:59.620 It's like I started it because I saw a problem. 0.99

00:23:02.920 I saw there was like, okay, men's magazines suck.

00:23:05.480 I think I could do somewhat of a better job or I just want to write content that resonates with me or guys like me.

00:23:11.220 It started working.

00:23:12.080 Then as I did that, you kind of – the success started coming and I started figuring things out.

00:23:17.660 That's when that purpose came.

00:23:19.980 Like, okay, I have a bigger purpose beyond just writing a blog post.

00:23:23.540 It's like I'm trying to help guys be the best men they can be.

00:23:27.500 So that's my big thing.

00:23:28.120 Just like do stuff.

00:23:29.540 Yeah, just move forward.

00:23:30.560 Yeah.

00:23:30.960 So, Brett, what are some of the most popular posts?

00:23:33.860 Like, I mean, you guys put out a ton of content.

00:23:36.380 I mean, I think you're what, three, four, five days a week you're putting something out there.

00:23:39.400 Is that right?

00:23:39.760 Yeah, about once every day.

00:23:40.700 So, what is – obviously, I think Poop Like a Samurai, I think you've mentioned, is probably like your most popular one.

00:23:46.420 Are there some other ones that come out that stand out as being extremely popular?

00:23:50.100 Yeah, I mean, it depends on the way it's popular.

00:23:51.640 So, like if you're just looking at like shares, I mean, there's the fun ones like how to gird up your loins, how to undo the damage.

00:23:59.240 I mean, just sort of really practical things that I think cuts across genders.

00:24:03.360 But the stuff that whenever we get letters, that stuff we're really proud of, like the articles that guys cite to that really help them out.

00:24:11.420 So, we did a whole series last year called Simper Virilis.

00:24:15.640 You guys can check that out.

00:24:17.780 We did a series early this year about the life of Winston Churchill and how he can teach you to have a truly awesome adulthood and sort of how to imbue your life with some romanticism.

00:24:27.800 Did a series – we did a post last year that just went gangbusters was you have to be a man before you can be a gentleman.

00:24:34.720 That resonated with a lot of guys.

00:24:36.500 So, those are some of the ones that I can think of off the top of my head when people write us letters.

00:24:40.600 They're like, man, that really changed me.

00:24:43.440 Who are some other – I know, obviously, Teddy Roosevelt is a big motivator.

00:24:48.540 I guess a lot of the content that you put together comes from some of his teachings and books and things like that.

00:24:54.000 Are there other men that you would have us consider following or emulating or looking to for advice?

00:24:59.740 Sure. Winston Churchill.

00:25:01.120 I'd recommend picking up his biography, The Last Lion.

00:25:05.400 Really great one.

00:25:06.400 The guy was phenomenal.

00:25:07.460 I mean, he was very much sort of like Teddy Roosevelt.

00:25:10.720 When he was a kid, he was sickly. 0.98

00:25:13.240 He was fat, sort of nerdy.

00:25:15.360 But he sort of decided to live this strenuous life and signed up to the military and wanted to go to the front – volunteer to go to the front lines, escape from war prison or something like that or escape from enemy lines.

00:25:30.280 And then just what he did in his political life is phenomenal.

00:25:33.980 Another guy, Jack London, I think he really kind of inspires Thumos in men, Thumos' sort of passion in men.

00:25:42.620 There's a great biography by a guy named Earl Labor.

00:25:45.600 You guys can check out.

00:25:47.220 Just a really great guy.

00:25:48.160 I mean, this is a guy who – same thing, self-made to the utmost.

00:25:52.500 Like he started – he came from a poor family, taught himself, self-educated, and just put himself and just went on some great, amazing adventures.

00:26:01.680 See, another guy that I – just like anyone from like the World War II generation, we have a contributing writer on the site, Marcus Brotherton, who has done a lot of books with interviews with World War II veterans.

00:26:15.200 Those guys just have a ton of lessons that I think they can impart to us younger generation.

00:26:20.340 Yeah, and it seems like just based on what I've seen and what you're doing and some of the books that I've read on my own, those men that are really inspirational that we look up to have overcome a lot of trials, overcome a lot of adversity.

00:26:31.680 And got past that and like you said, just went through a rough life and overcame those things.

00:26:36.360 Does that seem to be a reoccurring trend?

00:26:37.860 Yeah, yeah.

00:26:38.200 And they just did it, right?

00:26:40.500 They didn't sit around waiting for something, some sort of like epiphany.

00:26:44.680 They just like went and just did the work that was in front of them.

00:26:48.240 And for them, like the work was pretty great.

00:26:51.240 But I think they have – I think we should follow them.

00:26:54.100 Like just do what's in front of you.

00:26:55.340 You don't know if it will be awesome or like leave – people will be writing books about you.

00:26:59.820 But there's – that stuff needs to be done.

00:27:02.760 So do it.

00:27:04.040 A lot of people will ask me or say to me, you know, what is your business look like or what does this look like in 10 years?

00:27:09.660 And if I'm being truthful and honest, the answer is I don't know.

00:27:13.240 And I don't know that we should know, right?

00:27:14.920 Because I think if we clear that or we lay that path too clear out ahead too far, it limits us on what things that we can do or explore or experiment.

00:27:24.160 Yeah, yeah, for sure.

00:27:24.940 It's – goals are great but they can also be obstacles to new goals or new ventures.

00:27:32.620 So yeah, I mean I think it's good to have a plan.

00:27:35.560 I always tell that when people like, you know, young guys in particular, they write letters like, I don't know what I want to do with my life.

00:27:42.260 I'm like just pick something.

00:27:43.420 Do it and then move and things are going to open up.

00:27:46.960 Like, you know, my plan was I was going to be – I was supposed to be an attorney right now.

00:27:50.920 That was the plan. 0.69

00:27:51.820 But, you know, I still went to law school, still finished and then this thing came up and I still – you know, when I started the blog, I kept going to law school, didn't quit that because that would be dumb.

00:28:03.340 Right.

00:28:04.120 And then this option came up and then because of the site, other opportunities have come up and I followed that.

00:28:10.680 And so, you know, maybe there will be one day where because of changing taste or the changing ways people use the web that, you know, content-based websites will sort of decline.

00:28:20.220 If that happens, I'll just figure something else out.

00:28:22.440 And you've learned the skills and you develop the skills along the way that you'll be able to adapt or move into whatever else.

00:28:27.300 As long as you're keeping those options open and exploring new paths and passions, I think you'll able – you're able to do that.

00:28:32.660 Yeah, I mean you're developing capital, not just financial but skill capital, social capital.

00:28:37.780 And the only way you can develop that capital is if you're out there in the marketplace acquiring it.

00:28:43.020 You know, from the outside looking in, I think a lot of people can look at you and other successes and think that you guys have it all figured out.

00:28:49.700 And it's a trap because we start getting into this comparison game of, you know, look at Brett or look at this person and they've got it all figured out and they know exactly what they're doing.

00:28:56.800 I'd be really curious about the things that you're struggling with as a man and what you're doing to work and overcome some of those obstacles or challenges.

00:29:03.460 I mean like just trying to be – like figuring the parenthood thing out has been a challenge because basically I think being a parent, like you have to be sort of like a psychologist, like an expert psychologist because each kid is different and you're trying to figure out how to motivate them and how to teach them these important stuff and develop character in them.

00:29:24.440 And it's hard, right?

00:29:27.000 And I stay up and I'm thinking like, man, I'm doing a good job with this.

00:29:30.900 I don't want to screw this up.

00:29:31.860 So, there's that.

00:29:34.060 And then my own personal struggles, like I'm still working with trying to like not be distracted as much and not surf the internet when I should be working, not trying to be moody, peevish, as my wife would say.

00:29:46.880 That's the word she uses. 1.00

00:29:47.840 Yeah, peevish.

00:29:48.320 Yeah, peevish.

00:29:50.360 So, there's that I'm working on.

00:29:53.480 And then also, I'm working on just like the business, right?

00:29:57.960 There's things about the business where, you know, things are changing fast and, you know, trying to adapt to that.

00:30:02.900 So, trying to keep your head above water.

00:30:05.040 Yeah, I'm going to go back to your kid's statement about being a psychologist.

00:30:08.140 What's interesting is we have to figure it out and all of our kids are different.

00:30:11.420 You know, I've got three little ones from – let's see.

00:30:13.300 I've got a seven-year-old, a four-year-old, and a two-year-old.

00:30:15.160 And all three of them are completely different.

00:30:17.180 And what's interesting is they know more about psychology than we do as adults because they can work this over, right?

00:30:22.680 Yeah, definitely.

00:30:23.380 So, what's next?

00:30:24.440 You talk about business changing and things moving around.

00:30:27.120 What's next for you?

00:30:27.980 What can we as men look forward to and learn a little bit more about what you're doing?

00:30:31.300 You know, it's the same.

00:30:31.940 Just be writing useful content.

00:30:34.360 We're going to keep doing that because I think there's still a need for that.

00:30:36.980 And just whatever topic we take on, we're going to give it the art of manliness treatment.

00:30:40.820 And that's what we're going to do.

00:30:42.800 What – maybe on some parting notes and some final words here, what couple of maybe words of advice can you give us to be better men,

00:30:51.920 to do the things that we want to do, to take action, which is a big underlying theme of our conversation.

00:30:56.680 Are there some parting words you can leave us with?

00:30:58.560 Yeah, don't wait until you feel like it.

00:31:00.280 Just do it.

00:31:00.980 Just get going.

00:31:01.400 Just get going, right?

00:31:02.360 Well, Brett, I really appreciate you coming on the show, taking your time today, joining us, sharing some insights into what you're doing.

00:31:08.020 Like I said, you've been a big motivating factor into me starting the project.

00:31:11.800 So, it's been really exciting to talk to you today.

00:31:14.900 What's the best way to connect with you or where should those that are listening reach out to you?

00:31:19.500 Twitter is the best. Art of manliness. I'm on there quite a bit.

00:31:22.960 Okay. We'll send them that way.

00:31:24.480 Brett, we appreciate you being on the show today.

00:31:27.880 All right, guys. What did I tell you?

00:31:29.500 Such valuable information from a man that has been studying the world of masculinity since 2008

00:31:34.100 and has thousands of articles, videos, and resources available to help you and me succeed as men.

00:31:39.480 Again, if you need to pick up any of the resources that we talked about today, go to orderofman.com slash 023.

00:31:44.740 If you enjoyed the show and or if you learned anything new, I would ask humbly that you head over to orderofman.com slash iTunes.

00:31:54.000 Show us some support for the show by leaving your rating review.

00:31:56.380 I will try to read your review if you leave one for me in an upcoming show.

00:32:00.720 Now, remember, again, connect with me on Periscope this week to access all the live streaming videos that we'll be sharing on how to become a better man.

00:32:07.240 Next week, we're going to be talking with a man that is going to help us with our fitness and nutrition.

00:32:11.980 Obviously, our level of health says a lot about who we are as men, but it will also help us succeed in life and business and family

00:32:19.280 and just about every other facet of life that you can think of.

00:32:22.420 So, again, make sure you don't miss that by tuning in and subscribing to this podcast.

00:32:26.920 Guys, I look forward to talking with you next week, but until then, take action and become the man you were meant to be.

00:32:32.520 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

00:32:37.120 If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be,

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00:32:44.260 Thank you.

Order of Man - August 25, 2015

OoM 023： Brett McKay ｜ Perfecting the Art of Manliness

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