OoM 027： Growing Up, Getting Unstuck, and Learning to Fail with Paul Angone
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Summary
When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. You are not easily deterred or defeated. This is your life, and this is who you are. This episode features Paul Angoni, author of All Grown Up, Searching for Self, Faith and a Freaking Job, and 101 Secrets for Your 20s. He is also the creator of the popular website, AllGrownup.com, and Signsuce.com. He specializes in helping companies attract, retain, develop, and harness the best strengths of the millennial generation.
Transcript
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I'm stuck. I'm in a rut. I'm in a slump. I'm not satisfied. These are all phrases I hear a lot
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from the men I connect with on a daily basis. The reality, though, is that there isn't much
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that separates men who feel stuck from those that seem to have it all together. The successful have
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just learned how to implement a few tactics and strategies that are often overlooked. In this
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week's podcast, I talk with Paul Angoni, the author of All Grown Up, about some of those skills,
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including finding your anchor, connecting with other men, and using your failures to your
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advantage. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart
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your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time. You are not
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easily deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient. Strong. This is your life. This is who you are.
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This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call
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yourself a man. Men, welcome back to The Order of Man. My name is Ryan Michler, and I am the
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founder of Order of Man. Glad you're back here with us this week. I hope that you had a great
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weekend and got what you needed to be done. Now we're back into it, and I'm going to be having
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a conversation with a man that will be a huge help to you, especially if you're not excited about this
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week and also the course of your life. More on that in a second, but I first wanted to give credit
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where credit is due, and that is to all the men who have left reviews for our show. I really appreciate
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the vote of confidence, your support, and encouragement as we continue to get more conversations
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your way. Our Facebook group is still going strong. It's growing daily. I'm telling you
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guys, if you are looking for a place to surround yourselves with other like-minded, successful
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men, you need look no further. 550 men having conversations about masculinity and hobbies and
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struggles, bathroom etiquette, and so much more. So head over to facebook.com slash groups
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slash order of man to request access to the group. Now, if you're exercising, driving, or hiding
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in your office cubicle, and you can't really take notes right now, just remember that you
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can head over to orderofman.com slash 027 and get all the resources, links, show notes,
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and some of the best quotes from today's episode. Now, let's introduce you to my guest, Paul Angoni.
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Paul is a national speaker, the best-selling author of All Grown Up, Searching for Self, Faith,
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and a Freaking Job, and 101 Secrets for Your 20s. He's also the creator of the popular website
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allgrownup.com and signaturesauce.com. He specializes in helping companies attract,
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retain, develop, and harness the best strengths of the millennial generation. He has over 10 years
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writing and speaking and engaging millennials. He also has a master's degree in organizational
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leadership, and he is here to talk with us all about getting unstuck, finding your anchors,
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and turning failures into successes. Paul, thanks for joining me on the show. I'm excited to have
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you here today. Hey, thanks for having me on, Ryan.
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Ryan. So I've gone through this book a little bit, all grown up, and I'm excited to talk with
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you about that. But tell me a little bit about the premise behind the book and why you're doing
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what you're doing and why you decided to write this book. Yeah. So I've, gosh, I've been doing
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this for about 10 years now. And really, I started because I felt like such a failure throughout a
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lot of my 20s. And I just felt stuck and trying to figure out, how do you figure out the what now
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of the rest of your life? And people always asking you, what are you going to do with your life?
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What, you know, what are you passionate about? Those kinds of questions, I always felt so
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overwhelmed by them. And so I started writing about it, researching, trying to figure out what
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are the secrets? How do you figure out what to do with your life? And then that journey has taken me
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through a master's program, through books, through launching a website called allgrownup.com. And
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grown is as if you're groaning, you know, in pain, all grown up, because that's what it felt like,
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kind of that growing pains, you know, it's emerging into adulthood. And how do you figure out,
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okay, how do I be intentional about my life, start choosing my life, and not just be dying some slow
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death, working in a job I hate? Yeah, we run across that quite a bit is where we're the guys
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that are communicating with us. And part of what we're doing are running across that where they
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just feel stuck, they feel trapped, they don't feel excited or enthusiastic about their life. And so I
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think we'll have a great conversation about some of those topics today. Yeah, awesome.
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So were there some things in your life, you said you felt like a failure? Were there some things in
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your life that caused you to believe that? Was it just a culmination of everything? Or were there
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some specific instances? Yeah, I don't, you know, I think throughout college, I was definitely that
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guy that played sports, that had a lot of success, you know, is playing baseball in college and football
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and just, just things always seem to go well for me. And I was always poised to go do the next big
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thing. So when I left college, I was kind of ready for that trajectory just to take off.
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You know, I climbed all the right steps, I'd gotten the right grades, done the right internships,
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done whatever. And I felt like now am I ready? My life is ready to start. And I'm ready to go make
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a difference or make an impact or make a lot of money, or just be successful, however that looks.
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And so when I left college, you know, and the only job interview I could get was for a used
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airplane parts sales assistant, which I didn't know existed. And I walked into that interview
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pretty freaked out, obviously, because it's your first real job interview. But also I was freaked
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out because I was realizing that I'd been flying around in planes that have been using used airplane
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parts. And it was just like paradigm started exploding, right? You know, and then in that journey took
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me through temp agencies and working at a call center and just working a bunch of jobs that I
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felt like, man, is this what I signed up for? What's wrong with me? You know, where's all those
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big dreams and big goals and the passion? And I'm going to go make a difference. I want to go change
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the world. But I feel like the world is just changing me. And I have no clue how to get out of
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this. And so I felt very lost. And so it was really that sense of, yeah, feeling like I'm failing at
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this and struggling with it, but then also not being afraid to talk about that struggle.
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You know, and I see that a lot, especially with men, this feeling of, man, I'm struggling a lot
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with these questions. I don't feel like I know what I'm doing, but I don't really want to talk
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about it with my friends because they're all doing these amazing things. And I don't want to be the
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guy that's struggling. So we kind of internalize it, which only makes it worse.
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Right. And what I think is, I don't think our friends really have it figured out either.
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I think they put on a good front. So they're not talking about it. And you're not
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talking about it. And they're pretending that they have it figured out. And you're pretending
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you have it figured out. And no one really has it figured out.
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Right. And that just becomes such a isolating and insanely unhealthy way to go start going
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through life. You know, so I even had those moments. I'm sure maybe you've had this too,
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or people that are listening, where you have that friend that starts, one of your best friends,
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they call you and you see it ringing. And you're like, man, I know he has some cool stuff going on in
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his life. Or he wants to talk about what's going on and he's exciting. And I don't have any cool
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update to talk to him about. I don't feel like I have anything to really share. So maybe I'm going
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to let this one go to voicemail. Because I just, I don't, I feel, I don't want to even talk about it.
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You know, and so we just start isolating ourselves. And I've called it, I call it the new OCD
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that I think is really killing this generation, especially. And what I mean by the new OCD is
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obsessive comparison disorder. And I think especially now with social media and online,
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this online space where we're all kind of crafting this image of our life to make it appear really
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awesome. It becomes this obsessive comparison disorder where you're always looking at your
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friends going, why are they living the life that I thought I was supposed to live? And why am I such
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a failure? When really we are all are struggling, but we're all putting these PR spins on our own
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It's funny you should say that. I actually had a friend, he texted me or shot me a message
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somewhere and said, Hey, how are things going? It looks like from the outside that you've got
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everything figured out and all is well. And I just chuckled to myself. I'm like, yeah, it looks like
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that. But you know what? My wife and I get into arguments. I yell at my kids. Work sometimes sucks.
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And so I go through the same things that you do. How do we as guys start talking about this? Because
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if I'm understanding you correctly, having the conversation is probably the first step to getting things
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figured out. Yeah. You know, and that's honestly why I started writing my book and my newest book
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all grown up, uh, which in the subtitle searching for self faith and a freaking job is really, it was my
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most vulnerable way. I could tell my story and touch on a bigger story to just try to open up a conversation.
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And so I'm really big on, and I think our generation is really big on authenticity.
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You know, we always hear that. I want something that's authentic. I want something that's real.
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I want something that's true and honest. And I'll have people, you know, typically you'll have an
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older person say, well, how do you be authentic? You know, I want to be authentic so I can engage with
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the younger generation or whatever. And I'm like, well, if you want to be authentic, you got to be
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courageous enough to share your struggles. Right.
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And really that's what the base of authenticity is. It's getting behind the mask, getting behind
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the, uh, the show, so to say, and say, Hey man, this is what I'm struggling with. And it allows
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that safe space to start opening up to have a real conversation. So I guess you have to be willing to
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go first in a sense. Why are we scared of that? Is it egos or is it something else? I think it's a,
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I think, I think that's part of it. Right. I think to, to admit your struggles is admitting that
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I don't have it all together. And I don't think, especially as men were prone to want to admit
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that. I think we were kind of hardwired in some ways, maybe it's the way we were raised to be a
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leader and to have it figured out. And I'm the one that has the answers. I can't be wrestling with
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questions and I can't be open about that because I got to put up this front that I have it all
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together. Right. And so then it, but, but then it just, it spirals and it becomes such an
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isolating experience. And this generation, especially, uh, the studies are showing that
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they, you know, we spend more time alone than any other age group right now, other than the elderly,
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you know, 75 years and above, but like, especially 20 something spend more time alone than any other
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group. And so I don't think we're having a lot of those authentic real conversations because we're
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not willing to say, Hey, I'm struggling. And here's what's really going on in my life.
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Is it an amazing, I heard a quote one, one time where it said it's, it's incredible how easily
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that we connect can connect with somebody across the globe, but it's so difficult for us to connect
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with somebody across the table. Yeah. Gosh, that's so true. What do you suggest for men that are
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struggling with this question or all of us to, cause it sounds like community is a big element of
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this and having other male friends who you can connect with and be authentic and genuine with.
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And I know some of my best friends are the guys that we can talk about all the crap that's going
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on in our life. Not everything that's going perfectly. Are there some things that we can
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be doing to connect with other men that to create these communities or friendships, those authentic
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friendships? Yeah. I think it's first kind of what we're talking about. It's first, um,
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being comfortable enough and knowing that it's a healthy thing to not have it all figured out.
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Now, really it's, it's actually quite, I would say it's a quite negative trajectory to be on.
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If you feel right now that you have it all figured out, because I think we always need to be
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learning. And I think, you know, sometimes I remember myself and this is a roundabout way
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to answer your question, but I know for myself, I'd always be, I'd always be wishing I could make
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it. You know, I just want to, I want to make it. I want to get there. I want to arrive. I want to
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make it. And then I started realizing like that whole mindset is completely off. Why am I wanting
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to make it? What does that even mean? You know, and if I feel like I've made it, isn't that just going
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to mean that I'm going to stop and I'm going to just get comfortable and feel like I've arrived.
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So why go any further? So maybe this feeling of not making it is the best feeling I could have
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because I, Oh, I should, should I ever feel like I've made it? You know? So I guess it's first
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couching that in the, in the sense of, if you feel like you haven't made it, if you feel like you're
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on the struggle, you're on the path, you're still climbing, whatever it is, that's okay. And that's
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natural. And that's actually the healthy path to be on. So then to create community around that,
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I would just say, you know, just being intentional with your group of friends, whatever it is. And
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you're maybe it's through an online space or it's actually real people. And you're meeting for coffee
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just to start having kind of fellow travelers on this path where you're all encouraging each other
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in the process where it's like, Hey, we're going to be real with each other. We're not going to try
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to posture or pretend that, Hey, I've got a bigger bank account. Look at this deal. I closed. We're
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not going to, we're not going to make it about that. We're going to make it about, Hey, we're all
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in this together. How do we go along this journey together? Literally is like, you know, as your
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partners in a climbing a mountain, you really have to depend on each other or you're going to fall to
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your death. It's kind of that same feeling of let's really lean in on each other and find a way to
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where we can really meet and have an intentional time to talk about what's going on in our life.
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Well, it's interesting is I'm reading a book called the way of men, uh, by Jack Donovan.
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And he talks about the way of the men is basically the way of the gang. And if you go back 10,000
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years, we, as men traveled in tribes and helped each other out. And certain, certain, uh, members
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of the tribe had things that they were good at and others were good at something else. And then all of a
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sudden we became individualized. And I think that's where we're at right now. What's in your mind,
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the shift between, or, or from being part of a tribe and a community to now we have to go at it
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alone, right? That's what culture and society tells us. Yeah. You know, I don't, gosh, I think,
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I mean, it's definitely kind of hardwired into, if we want to go big, you know, macro view, I think
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it's definitely for, especially for United States, it's kind of hardwired even into our cultural
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narrative, you know, kind of being these lone Rangers, you know, it's kind of that guy, you know,
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it's, it's those movies that we'd watch. It's that it's the hero. It's the guy that is on the
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horse that is going at it himself. He's saving the world. He probably has one sidekick that's there
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for humorous purposes to make jokes, but really they're not doing much. They're messing up more
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than anything because the hero is the one saving everything. You know, it's that lone Ranger
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mentality. And I think for us, it is kind of that feeling of, you know, pick yourself up by the
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boots, bootstraps, all the Western cliches we have, and I'm going to go forge this path alone.
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And then our whole lifestyle is kind of fitting into that independent, individualized narrative,
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you know, where you're doing all these things by yourself and you're trying to prove yourself and
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you feel like you're fighting against, you're even in a competition with other men, you know,
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other men and other people trying to take your resources, but you're doing it all alone.
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And so I think it's just hardwired into our culture that we're just such an independent,
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we're not a community-based culture. You know, it's all about, let me get my house, my job,
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get in my car where I can drive alone to my job. Maybe I interact with some coworkers,
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but I'm going to sit at my desk. And it just, it just, sometimes it doesn't foster that idea of
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authentic community as being an important thing.
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Right. And I think the first step is just recognizing that, right?
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As I started to recognize that I was, you know, you almost feel like there's noble in
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And so as I started to recognize that and, and, and be more aware and surround myself with guys
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like you and start this podcast and have conversations and get in masterminds, I mean,
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I can't tell you how exponentially, uh, how high that's increased, not only my business success,
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but my family life and my relationships and just my overall sanity.
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Yeah. I mean, we have to have, I mean, it's that idea of mentorship or apprenticeship. You know,
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we should have people that are in our lives that are mentoring us and we should have people in our
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lives that we're mentoring too. And I think there's definitely this feeling like I want to go do it
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by myself. I want to be a self-made man, right? That's kind of hardwired into that narrative and it can
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become so problematic. And I think one movie, one story that really hit this home for me that I watched
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and it literally, I mean, it just was so profound for me. And it's, um, the book, uh, and then the
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movie and based on the true story, but into the wild, you know, the, uh, which is just that, that
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profound story of the college student who graduates and it's the true story, you know, where he's going
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to go and have a great Alaskan adventure and he's kind of kind of shun society and he's going to go do
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it all by himself. And it's kind of like him becoming a man in a sense, but he does it in such
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isolation and he does it without the proper training. He just wants to do it. And he wants
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to figure out, can I be a man or not? That then the ending, if anybody's, you know, it doesn't end
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up well for him because he had nobody there. If he just had one person there, it would have saved his
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life. Well, so what's the balance? Because I know that there is good things about being able to be
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self-reliant and self-sufficient and figuring out things on your own. There's advantages to that.
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So what's the balance between being a strong and rugged independent male and then being able to
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surround yourself with people who are going to help you get to where you want to be and vice versa?
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Yeah. I think it's just trying to strike that balance, you know, and I was even just thinking
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of another true story, the movie, what was it? 168 hours or it was, it was basically that, the,
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the mountain climber guy who got stuck in the rocks and had to, ended up, you know, tearing off his own
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arm to get free. And I felt like that was a really profound one too, because he was basically
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realizing that he was, he was so prideful that he, he would just go do it all by himself and he
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wouldn't even tell people where he was going to go. And his mom called earlier that day and he didn't
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even pick up the phone to just say, Hey, heads up, I'm going to go do this. So I think we can still be
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independent. We can still go and strive and we have to have that time alone to really wrestle with who
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we are and where we're going and those kinds of things. But we at least have to allow enough
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people in our world that there's people, there's some checkpoints along the way. There's some people
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that we're checking into. We're not just doing it all by ourselves because I'm not going to let
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anybody into this because they're just going to drag me down. Well, that's kind of an arrogant way
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to go through life and probably not healthy. So it's that, it's that mix. It's that mix of,
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Hey, yeah, I'm going to have to do a lot of it. I can't depend on somebody else to make my life
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happen. It's got to happen because I'm going to be intentional about it. But how can I have some
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checkpoint relationships, people that are going to see the inside that I'm going to allow in and
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see the nitty gritty stuff that I'm maybe afraid to show? Well, so you've been doing this for,
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it sounds like a decade or so, which is, it's crazy when you say it like that, right?
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It is. Yeah. When you're 32, it's like, well, that's like a third of my life, but it feels like a long
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time. Yeah. So when I think about the conversation we're having, I wonder what some of the decisions
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men are struggling with. Like I can think of, you know, career wise or college or dating and who do
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I marry and all of those things. Are there other questions, other life altering decisions that men
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are struggling with in your experience? So any other one, you know, I think a big one is that idea
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of, you know, I think it's a big one is, is career is what am I going to do? Uh, and I think
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especially again, you know, we're just hardwired to want to do something and that's amazing. So it
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is that question of what am I going to do with my life? And I definitely work with a lot of guys
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that are just feeling stuck in that job that feels like they're dying that slow death and they're not
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living the life that they felt like they were meant to live. And so for a lot of those people,
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you know, men and women alike, it's starting to be courageous enough to start asking yourself some
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hard questions about, okay, what do you really want and how are you going to get there? And what
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changes do you need to start making so that you're not just stuck in this life that you don't want to
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live? And that can be a tough process to start going down. But that, that's one of the biggest
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things that I see is, is people wrestling with the fact of this is not the life I want to live.
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And I don't want to live. I don't want to be stuck in a job for 25 years and work up the corporate
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ladder to then find that I'm miserable when I know I'm miserable right now. And so I think as a
00:20:14.380
generation, we don't want to start asking the hard questions when we're 50. I think we really are
00:20:20.420
wanting to ask the hard questions now. What is the mental block in your experience? Because I know a lot
00:20:27.060
of guys that are out there and I'm sure that are some listening right now that say, yeah, this is me.
00:20:31.480
I do not want to be where I am today. And they know that. So why are they not making the change
00:20:38.220
to get to where they want to be? Yeah, that's a great, that's a great question. That's the
00:20:42.960
million dollar question, right? It's why, why do some of us change and why some of us, why do some
00:20:47.260
of us not? There's, there's one quote that I really love. It's from a book called Deep Change.
00:20:52.360
And it is basically, uh, to change is hell, but to not change is also hell. When you change and you
00:21:01.280
go through the experience of the hell of change, that's the hero's journey. But when you choose not
00:21:07.100
to change, that's the path of slow death. So it's kind of this idea that either way is going to be
00:21:12.600
really hard, right? But do you want to, and when I read that, I'm like, well, do I want to pick slow
00:21:17.840
death hard or do I want to pick the hero's journey hard? And we even, even when you look at that
00:21:23.680
narrative of the hero's journey, you know, putting in the context of story. And since I'm a writer,
00:21:29.480
I love thinking about these kinds of metaphors. He's no, in every movie that we love, there's
00:21:32.840
always the end of act two. There's always that, that what they call where basically everything
00:21:37.040
falls apart. You know, everything goes wrong. Uh, their friends die. Their plans are blown up.
00:21:42.320
You know, they're not going to win. Everything is, it's like, it's the all is lost moment is what
00:21:46.160
they call it. Right. And, and the hero always experiences an all is lost moment before the
00:21:53.180
dramatic rise. And so I think for some of us, we feel like we're in the desert or we're in the
00:21:59.700
wilderness or nothing has gone as we planned. And we feel like we're really stuck in that. And I guess
00:22:04.740
we just, we just have to make that choice of, do I want to start easing into a comfortable life
00:22:10.460
that I know I don't really want, but at least I have a nice paycheck or am I going to take the
00:22:16.740
risky path where I'm going to start making some choices that might, might not make financial
00:22:21.680
sense right now. It might be a risk in time or in relationships, but I'm going to start making some
00:22:26.740
hard choices of, no, this is really what I want to pursue. And I'm going to find a way to do it.
00:22:31.320
And whether it's getting up at 5am to do it, whether it's working a part-time job. So I have
00:22:36.840
some more time to do what I want to do. It's finding the space to pursue that bigger thing that
00:22:41.740
you, you feel like you should be pursuing. I know this is really difficult to answer
00:22:45.800
because we have to talk about it in such a general context, but what are the men who have been
00:22:51.660
successful in making that leap and getting out of that rut that they're in? Are there like one or two
00:22:58.300
or three very specific steps or examples or stories that you've seen in the past where men have
00:23:05.160
made that change in there and they feel like they're where they want to be now?
00:23:08.940
Yeah. You know, I like to put it in the context of, I think people need to, I think most successful
00:23:14.700
people have figured out what their signature sauce is. So they've clarified their signature sauce.
00:23:21.480
And what I mean by that is I think each person is created with a unique mix of ingredients,
00:23:26.120
a unique flavor that they offer to the world that no one else does. And I think successful people,
00:23:32.180
men and women, they have started identifying and honing in, defining and refining their signature
00:23:38.180
sauce. And what I mean by that, so one of the ingredients that I would say is this is how you
00:23:43.060
start finding that is what are your core values? What are your soul values? What are values that
00:23:53.600
you will not give up? When you're, when you're making a hard decision, you fall back on these
00:24:00.020
values as one of your key drivers for how do you make a decision? And again, values can be a broad
00:24:06.300
term. So it's hard to even get down to the nitty gritty of what is a value. But like for me,
00:24:10.900
one of my values is authenticity. I had a strength, let's say I have a strength for communication
00:24:17.580
where I like to speak. I like to talk, but I was never very good at a sales job.
00:24:24.440
I would try to do sales jobs, but I would just be terrible at it. And I feel so anxious.
00:24:28.360
And I started figuring out, well, well, really, even though this is utilizing a strength,
00:24:32.940
it's going against one of my core values, which is authenticity, because I feel like I'm selling
00:24:37.760
something that I don't believe in. Right. So there was a real conflict there. So then I started
00:24:42.300
figuring out, oh gosh, I really have to do something that I feel is authentic for me to be
00:24:47.620
really utilizing my strengths of communication. So they really work together. So in that idea of that
00:24:53.840
idea of that, uh, the metaphor of signature sauce, it's, it's starting to hone in on some of those
00:24:58.460
ingredients and really identifying those and putting word sets to those. So you know why you're
00:25:04.460
doing what you're doing. You're not just doing it random. You're not just pursuing one idea or
00:25:09.580
another idea because you're trying to make money. It's really rooted more in who you are
00:25:14.940
and what you're good at. And what need do you see in the world that you feel like you want to address?
00:25:21.800
Because I think that's another big part of people that actually take action
00:25:25.240
is it's typically, it's tied to a need. It's some need that they see that makes them so mad
00:25:31.940
or frustrates them or breaks their heart or whatever it is that they're like, how can,
00:25:36.620
how can nobody be doing something about this? Interesting. Yeah, that makes sense.
00:25:41.200
You know? And so it's not, it's, so it's bringing the internal, it's bringing what you're good at,
00:25:44.580
what you're passionate about, your values, your strengths, your personality, these type things.
00:25:48.340
But then it's also typically tying it to a need. And then that's when it becomes powerful because
00:25:53.060
then when you hit the obstacles and everything falls apart, like for me, when I was trying to
00:25:56.860
write a book and get it published and this book took me about 10 years to get published.
00:26:01.280
This one that just came out. Yeah. All the, all the dreams of being a bestselling author and being
00:26:07.400
on a speaking tour or whatever, those all quickly went away. And the only thing that kept me going
00:26:12.780
was this feeling of this need that 20 somethings are struggling and I want to help them. I want to
00:26:18.060
be a voice to encourage and give them insight. Well, and also from the outside looking in,
00:26:22.700
and I know this is true about my life is, you know, you and I talked about it. You felt like
00:26:27.880
a failure and you came out of that with a unique set of skills and experiences and struggles that
00:26:33.040
now you can pass on to somebody else. Exactly. And typically, and what I often say is that failure
00:26:39.300
doesn't ruin your story. Failure helps you write it. So the key is failing without calling yourself a
00:26:46.700
failure and really embarking on some strategic attempts to fail. So it's not just, it's not just
00:26:54.740
being a failure being that you're getting drunk every night and you feel miserable. You know,
00:27:00.000
you got to make some changes so that you don't feel that way. But I'm talking about failures and
00:27:05.060
failing as if you, you attempt something that's greater than what you think you can accomplish
00:27:09.200
and it doesn't quite work out. Well, that was a good failure. You know, that was, that was a good
00:27:14.120
failure attempt because now you can tweak it and try again because the possibility for greatness
00:27:20.400
and embarrassment both exist in the same space. Yeah, that's true. And if you're not willing to
00:27:27.020
be embarrassed, you're not willing to be great. Great point. And I don't, and for myself, I don't
00:27:32.220
want to be embarrassed. I don't want to get up on stage and look like an idiot. It's much easier to
00:27:37.580
be the guy in the third row who has all the cynical, sarcastic, funny remarks about the person on stage,
00:27:42.740
right? Sure. Of course. And I think as guys, we can sometimes get stuck in that place of being the guy in
00:27:47.720
the third row who can pick, you know, all the things that the guys on stage are doing wrong,
00:27:51.980
but are we willing to get up on stage and do that? Yeah. That's just a defense mechanism,
00:27:56.180
right? Yeah, exactly. Of why you're not doing it. Exactly. I love that you said authenticity
00:28:01.020
because I think, and I've had this conversation before and you've heard it on this podcast is where
00:28:04.980
guys will say, you need to find your values. And the knee jerk reaction is, well, I value my time and
00:28:10.920
my family. It's like, yeah, of course, you know, we all do. That's let's get a little deeper than that.
00:28:15.380
And so I like that you talk about authenticity. Are there some other values that you see
00:28:20.980
men have that really they're able to anchor on and move towards whatever it is they're trying to
00:28:26.540
accomplish? I think for a lot of guys, we definitely value this sense of, you know, I think for me,
00:28:32.780
especially, I'll just put it in my terms because I want to talk for all guys. I think especially for
00:28:37.460
our generation, we value, we do value wanting to have good relationships. And especially I think as
00:28:45.000
some of us get married and have kids, we want to be around and we want to be involved. Yeah. And
00:28:51.780
you know, I don't want to be working a 70 hour a week job and never see my family type thing. And so
00:28:58.760
that's a real value of mine is I want to have healthy relationships with the people that are
00:29:02.860
important to my life. So that value is going to help instruct some of my decisions and
00:29:09.660
opportunities that I take. And it's a constant weighing that of, is this going to be contradicting
00:29:16.660
a value of mine? Because it's going to take me away from my family for years and I won't see them.
00:29:22.320
So how do I balance that with this feeling of, I want to do something big, but yet I need to keep
00:29:28.480
in mind those healthy relationships and that value of mine.
00:29:32.020
That makes total sense. Always comparing it towards your values and that's going to be your barometer
00:29:36.000
or your gauge for where you're going. Yeah. That, that should be your, your, yeah,
00:29:39.960
your base, your anchor, because that's what it comes down to is if you start contradicting your
00:29:45.180
values, you're going to begin to sabotage yourself and it's just not going to work. You're going to
00:29:51.180
start feeling anxious. You're going to start feeling that depression, whatever it might come out,
00:29:55.640
whatever, however it manifests. But I think a lot of the time it's because you're contradicting some
00:30:00.300
core values in yourself that you know are important to you, but you've just chosen not to make,
00:30:05.220
you've chosen decisions that, that go away from those.
00:30:08.980
And that, that's a frustrating thing. I can't remember the quote. I'll have to try to find this,
00:30:12.480
but the most frustrating time in life is when your life is inconsistent with your vision or your
00:30:20.140
character or your perception of the way your life should be. That's the most frustrating type
00:30:24.440
life, part of life for a man. I can't remember that quote. I'll have to look it up.
00:30:28.660
Yeah, no, but yeah, that totally, that definitely makes sense.
00:30:31.120
Are there some strengths that we as men tend to overlook when it comes to figuring out what we
00:30:37.160
want to do in life? And then more importantly, taking that next step?
00:30:40.600
Man, as far as strengths go, if you're going to take that next step, I think it comes down to kind
00:30:45.340
of what I said before is it has to be a strength of being willing to be vulnerable and being willing
00:30:50.640
to look embarrassed. And, and that's not a strength I would say for us. So I would say it's,
00:30:55.420
it's just a willingness to, to take a risk and, and look like an idiot at times and not be so hung
00:31:03.800
up on what will people think about me as I pursue this. Yeah. The best example I've come across is
00:31:09.100
that as I've got three kids and my youngest, she's almost two. It's funny because she's learning to
00:31:15.160
talk and she's putting together words. And most of the time you have no idea what she's saying,
00:31:19.160
but she's not concerned about what you think of how she says a certain word. Exactly.
00:31:23.360
She's just mirroring you and trying to figure it out. And same thing with walking,
00:31:27.620
same thing with everything in life is that way. The more we get concerned about what people think,
00:31:32.400
the less likely we are to succeed, or it's just going to take us a whole lot longer than if we
00:31:36.120
just went full bore with it. Exactly. Exactly. And it's just that realization that honestly,
00:31:40.620
people don't really care. Right. Because they've been there and, and they're just,
00:31:44.320
you know what they're, you know what Facebook profile people look at the most? It's their own.
00:31:48.920
Right. They're not obsessing over your Facebook profile or over, oh, you haven't posted a cool
00:31:55.500
picture in a while, or, oh, you don't have the vice president marketing title anymore. You know,
00:32:00.520
people don't really care. They care about themselves. So it's, it's almost a freedom in
00:32:04.860
a sense of, wow, I can live for myself because it doesn't matter, you know, and I need to have the
00:32:09.560
few, few close people with me that can give me encouragement, that can give me advice,
00:32:13.200
that can speak into my life, but I don't need to be living and creating and trying to do this for
00:32:18.860
some vision of what I think others expect of me, you know, or think, you know, as a writer and having
00:32:26.200
two books out there, I get tons of crazy comments. I get people saying so much stuff and I'm sure you
00:32:32.740
see it too, you know, and just, and it's like, I can't start creating for them. I can't start
00:32:38.120
creating for the critics. I can't start changing who I am or what I think is important. I have to
00:32:42.980
stay true to that. So I think for any guy that feels stuck is, will you have the courage to be
00:32:48.220
embarrassed? And will you have the courage to start being faithful in the small? So start working
00:32:54.120
into your life, some small steps that you can start taking that you're going to start consistently
00:32:59.500
doing, because it's not going to be a huge, big, amazing thing at first. It's really just a bunch of
00:33:06.160
small steps that you start taking. And maybe it's, I'm going to get up at 530 in the morning and I'm
00:33:11.120
going to start pursuing my dream. I'm going to work for two hours before I go to my full-time job.
00:33:16.080
You know, have you read, uh, the compound effect by Darren Hardy? Yes. Yes. I have read such a great
00:33:21.340
book. And it's talking about what you're saying is that it's not big, huge steps. It's things that
00:33:26.280
you're doing on a daily basis every single day, literally for the rest of your life. And before
00:33:31.300
you know it, you'll look back and realize, look how far you've come without even, you know,
00:33:35.420
taking that huge leap. Exactly. Exactly. And, and I think if you've, if you've rooted these steps
00:33:41.440
in more of who you are, if you've basically, if you've started figuring out what your signature
00:33:46.860
sauce is, I think that'll make you push further and it'll make the steps seem more worth it
00:33:52.400
because you'll know, you'll understand why am I taking these steps? You'll understand the need that
00:33:58.960
you're pursuing or the values or your strengths or your personality or, um, your story or, you know,
00:34:05.240
these different things. And the more you can help identify that now, the more motivation you'll have
00:34:12.480
to keep making those steps when no one cares, when it starts getting into the, I can't believe I'm doing
00:34:19.240
this time, you know, and when that alarm hits and you're like, I don't want to do this anymore.
00:34:23.720
Or if you've rooted it more and more in your signature sauce and what you're really about,
00:34:29.160
that will give you more, uh, motivation to keep moving forward.
00:34:33.800
One of the questions that I've thought about as I've followed your work and I've read your books
00:34:37.260
is the balance between growing up, right? And maturing. If we hear that term, be mature,
00:34:43.980
grow up, get a job, get a life, all those things. And then just having fun with life too,
00:34:50.320
because we can't be all serious all the time, right? We've got to have some playfulness. We've
00:34:55.120
got to have some childlike enthusiasm and optimism, optimism about the future. What's the balance there?
00:35:02.100
Yeah, I think that's kind of that question is why I made my website all grown up, you know,
00:35:07.080
is kind of that playoff of when are we a grownup? When do we go from growing to grown? What are the,
00:35:13.900
what are the adult markers? Who, who decides when you're an adult? And I think, I think you're right.
00:35:18.520
It is finding that mix where it's both, you're growing and you're grown at the same time.
00:35:25.260
And I think people that are really successful, they've mastered that where they're, they're
00:35:29.480
taking parts of what it means to be an adult, you know, the responsibility factors, the taking
00:35:35.560
ownership for my life, you know, I'm not dependent on my parents, you know, those kinds of things.
00:35:40.060
But then there are also still factoring in some of those kinds of kid-like attributes of growing,
00:35:44.580
of basically being a lifelong learner, having, you know, having what, you know, in the book mindset,
00:35:50.280
you know, what the professor writes about there of having a growth mindset, which I think is a very
00:35:55.820
kind of childlike thing, you know, like what you're talking about with your kid, your two-year-old,
00:35:59.820
and I see it as well in my, in my children, is they have a growth mindset. They're trying to figure it out
00:36:05.320
and they're willing to look stupid while they do it, uh, because they don't have a fixed mindset,
00:36:11.020
which I think for a lot of adults, when you get to quote-unquote adulthood, you can start having
00:36:16.200
a fixed mindset, which is, uh, this feeling of, I know what I know and that's as much as I can know
00:36:26.240
Gosh, I think we start getting it hardwired into this, this feeling of, I don't want to fail.
00:36:30.640
And I think a lot of times that's what it comes down to is I don't want to fail. And because of
00:36:36.120
that fear of failure, you, you won't allow yourself to take that next risk. I think a lot of times it
00:36:43.080
does come down to that because you don't want to look stupid. You don't want to look foolish. Oh,
00:36:46.640
I I'm the guy that always has it together. And, uh, and then that just becomes a really negative way.
00:36:52.080
You don't have any growth because you have to fail if you're going to, if you're going to grow,
00:36:56.160
that's part of the process. And I, you have people that are in their fifties, you know,
00:37:00.800
the CEOs that are trying new things and they're failing at it and they're just chalking it up to
00:37:04.620
another learning mistake and they're continuing and going, you know, fail, you know, if they fail,
00:37:09.260
it doesn't make them a failure. So, so I think that is a big part of having that, that growth mindset.
00:37:14.640
Yeah. I think you're right. Just, just almost making failure a game and being excited about not
00:37:19.800
failing, but just learning something new, right?
00:37:23.380
Yeah. You fail tweak and you try again. I mean, that's the whole, I mean, if you put it into a
00:37:27.860
business model, you know, people beta test their products, right? They, they release a product that
00:37:33.460
they basically know is not complete. It's not how they really want it. They know it's going to fail
00:37:38.720
in some ways, but they know that they're going to learn so much from the different ways it fails
00:37:43.840
that they can incorporate into 2.0. Right. So how can we do that in our own life? Let's beta test some
00:37:50.580
things in our own life, right? Give it a shot. Give it a shot, you know, and then let's get 2.0
00:37:56.780
So your previous book was 101 secrets for your twenties. Really quickly, are there a couple
00:38:02.480
or a handful of secrets that we should be aware of that we can implement today?
00:38:07.240
Yeah, there, there's, I, and I've mentioned a few of them, you know, something like, you know,
00:38:10.520
finding, you know, the new OCD obsessive comparison disorder that I pulled that from 101 secrets to your
00:38:15.920
twenties. But, uh, another one that I, that I, that was big for me and I won't go through the
00:38:20.700
whole story, but basically it's, I think for a lot of guys, and I know I was like this as well,
00:38:26.620
is I felt like I kept, I kept getting stuck in kind of crappy jobs and I kept feeling like,
00:38:31.480
why can't I get out of this rut? Why can't I get out of this feeling of, I just keep working all
00:38:35.340
these crappy jobs. And then it was actually, it was watching this guy at Starbucks who I, I call the
00:38:41.780
mayor of Starbucks. And I was watching this barista basically, and he was doing such an amazing job.
00:38:48.260
And I kind of realized this, this truth that I was so caught up. I was so worried about finding the
00:38:54.640
right job when I really should be, should be worried about my job getting the best of me.
00:39:01.420
And I think for a lot of us, it's, we're always kind of going for that. If only moment,
00:39:05.860
if only I would get a raise or if only my job or my boss would stop being such a jerk,
00:39:10.880
or if only I could get a promotion, if only I could change jobs, then I would be feeling better.
00:39:17.980
Then I'd be working harder. Then I'd be, you know, doing all these things. And I think we're
00:39:21.820
always waiting for this if only moment when, no, you gotta be, you gotta start working hard and
00:39:26.680
being intentional right now. And what can you learn right now so that you can then leverage
00:39:30.980
to get a better job. And I was stuck in a lot of crappy jobs because I wasn't being intentional to
00:39:36.100
learn what I needed to learn in that season. We always hear this phrase of the grass is greener on the
00:39:40.360
other side, but the, the add on to that phrase that I really like is the grass is greener where
00:39:45.700
you water it. Right. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And I, and I actually have a, uh, I have
00:39:50.840
one, I think I put it in the 101 secreture twenties book where I put the grass is always greener on the
00:39:54.800
other side until you get there and realize it's because of all the manure. Yeah. Right. Right.
00:40:00.740
You know, and it's that same kind of thing. Like you have to water it and then you have to put a lot
00:40:04.160
of manure down sometimes to get grass to grow. And sometimes that compost is, it doesn't smell
00:40:09.000
very good. You know, there's a lot of work and there's a lot of death that goes into that. You
00:40:14.060
know, there's a lot of things that die off and that goes into the ground to help that grass grow.
00:40:18.580
Well, Paul, I really appreciate you being on the show today. We're winding down on time. I've got a
00:40:21.640
couple additional questions for you if I can really quickly. So the first question is, and this is
00:40:26.360
something that I ask all of my guests and I'm excited to hear your answer because this has been
00:40:29.780
really valuable, our conversation over the past half hour. And that question is, what does it mean
00:40:34.260
to be a man? Oh man, that is such a good question. It's such a hard one, right? And even the idea of
00:40:40.900
manhood has been, what does it mean nowadays? You know, what is it? What does that look like?
00:40:45.460
You know, I think, I think for men right now, I think one of the hardest things that we can do
00:40:49.940
is the courage to be vulnerable, which is not a manly thing to talk about sometimes. And that's why I
00:40:57.100
think it's so important for us to be vulnerable. And if we're going to be authentic, we have to
00:41:02.920
stop struggling to make it appear like we're not struggling. And I think we can grow so much more
00:41:08.340
as men if we have that kind of open-handed approach and seeking out mentors, seeking out friends to
00:41:15.880
say, hey, look, I don't have this figured out. I'm yelling at my wife. I'm yelling at my kids. I feel
00:41:21.720
miserable at my job. I need help. And so I think that's kind of counterintuitive to the typical
00:41:27.220
male answer. But to be able to say that I need help and being intentional about finding help,
00:41:32.860
I think sometimes is the most manly thing you can do. Thank you for that insight,
00:41:36.680
because that's something different than we've heard. And so that, but that's much needed.
00:41:39.320
That's what we need to hear. So I appreciate it. So Paul, how do we connect with you? Where do we
00:41:43.940
find more about what you're doing? I know you're pretty active with your blog and then you've got
00:41:48.380
all grown up and 101 secrets for your 20s. So how do we connect with you or learn more about what
00:41:52.700
you're doing? Yeah, yeah. You can come to my website, allgrownup.com. And again, grown is
00:41:57.320
spelled like you're groaning in pain, you know, G-R-O-A-N, all grown up. And then also I have a
00:42:04.580
new website I'm starting actually called signaturesauce.com. And so that's why I'm thinking
00:42:09.220
about this idea of signature sauce, because that's a new program I'm basically creating to help people
00:42:13.720
find their signature sauce. So they could go to signaturesauce.com if they want to find out more
00:42:18.840
about that or connect with me there as well. But they can reach out through any of my websites.
00:42:23.160
There's always contact forms or emails, or they can find me on Twitter at Paul Angoni is my Twitter
00:42:29.480
handle. And my name is A-N-G-O-N-E is my last name. So you can find me on Twitter there. So yeah,
00:42:35.560
feel free to reach out. If anything sparked within you of this conversation, you just want to find out
00:42:39.720
more or get me to explain something more, just reach out. I'd love to connect with you.
00:42:43.720
Paul, thanks a ton for being on the show. I had a good time talking about this and we're excited
00:42:49.420
to implement all of this stuff because I know it's so valuable for me and everybody else who's
00:42:54.200
Thanks, Ryan. It was an honor being on your show. I really appreciate it.
00:42:58.060
There it is, guys, Mr. Paul Angoni. I hope you enjoyed the show. I know that this 30-minute
00:43:02.460
conversation is going to be invaluable in a lot of men's lives. I hope that it's helped you.
00:43:07.440
Remember, again, you can check out the Cliff Notes version for this show at
00:43:10.700
orderofman.com slash 027. And also, if you enjoyed the show, if you learned something new,
00:43:16.400
if you're feeling generous, or if you just want to say thank you, head over to orderofman.com
00:43:20.500
slash iTunes and leave us your rating and review. And a quick reminder, again, join our exclusive
00:43:25.860
Facebook group. That's facebook.com slash groups slash orderofman. Join in the conversation that
00:43:31.360
we're having about manliness and masculinity. We want as many guys there as possible to join in
00:43:36.880
that conversation. Now, guys, we've got some great new shows lined up. I've got 8 to 10 recorded right
00:43:42.440
now. And so I've got some amazing guests, some amazing conversations, and some amazing interviews
00:43:47.480
over the next two months. So make sure you stay tuned. Guys, I look forward to talking with you
00:43:52.660
next week. But until then, take action and become the man you were meant to be.
00:43:57.080
Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. If you're ready to take charge of your life and be
00:44:03.180
more of the man you were meant to be, we invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.