Order of Man - OoM 032： Becoming a Man Through 4 Tactical Virtues with Jack Donovan

00:00:00.000 Being a man is hard work. We all have so many roles and responsibilities. Husband, father, business owner, community leader, and the list goes on and on.

00:00:07.520 And in addition to that, the media and the world are trying to tell us how we should behave and what it means to be a man by giving us a list of things like 27 ways to be a modern man.

00:00:17.040 My guest today, Mr. Jack Donovan, has narrowed it down to four tactical virtues that all men should strive to improve, the difference between masculinity and morality, and why we should care.

00:00:26.700 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:32.980 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient. Strong.

00:00:42.460 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:51.700 Welcome back to the Order Man Podcast. My name is Ryan Mickler. I am the host and the founder of Order Man, and I'm glad to be back with you here again today.

00:01:00.280 Now, I've got Mr. Jack Donovan on the show to talk about, you guessed it, masculinity.

00:01:04.200 But before I get into the show today, I want to give a quick thanks to those of you who left iTunes reviews last week. I appreciate that.

00:01:10.940 A.K. Zebron said,

00:01:12.700 I really enjoy this content because it's positive, motivating, and encouraging while being relevant and informational.

00:01:18.160 Keep up the good work, fellas. Men, helping men improve themselves by providing positive content as well as a community gathered around.

00:01:24.020 I feel like this podcast is helping me become better myself, thus improving my relationships, business, physical, and mental health.

00:01:30.740 Great brain food and confidence builder. Looking forward to hearing more.

00:01:33.420 I appreciate you leaving that review.

00:01:35.180 If you haven't left your review yet, I know you will. You can do that over at orderofman.com slash iTunes.

00:01:40.780 And I also wanted to let you know that we just printed a small run of the inaugural Order of Man t-shirts.

00:01:48.320 They're for sale right now. You can find those at orderofman.com slash shirts.

00:01:52.360 We don't have very many of them, so if you want one, you better jump on that quick.

00:01:55.560 I'd love to see as many guys wearing those shirts as possible.

00:01:58.120 Now, I'm not going to talk too much about this today because I've mentioned it a ton before.

00:02:01.940 But if you're interested, know that we've got over 800 of us and we're having some great conversations on our Order of Man Facebook group,

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00:02:16.580 I'd love to see you there.

00:02:17.780 Show notes, guys, the links, the information, and the best quotes from today's show can all be found at orderofman.com slash 032.

00:02:25.000 Now, let's meet Jack Donovan.

00:02:26.700 He is the author of The Way of Men, which has become a runaway cult hit with men all over the world.

00:02:31.080 He's been blogging, writing, speaking about masculinity and tribalism since 2007.

00:02:37.780 Now, he's currently building a tribe in the Pacific Northwest, and he also owns a tattoo shop and a powerlifting gym.

00:02:44.020 He also just barely started a t-shirt company, which he suggests in this interview as well, so he's got a lot going on.

00:02:48.900 He's a frequent guest on a wide variety of podcasts.

00:02:51.540 He's an occasional contributor to the online magazine Radix.

00:02:54.040 He also runs his own podcast, many of you may have heard, Start the World, where he interviews self-defense experts, survivalists, authors, and artists.

00:03:02.420 Jack, thanks for joining us today. Excited to have you on the show.

00:03:04.660 Thanks for having me.

00:03:05.900 So, the first question I want to ask is, how did you get into this world of defining masculinity and manhood and really just exploring this topic?

00:03:14.220 Well, it was something that I've always been vaguely interested in gender studies, but from the other angle.

00:03:21.360 I came at it from more of a modern angle.

00:03:24.520 And then when I was in my mid-30s, I started writing about it a little bit.

00:03:29.640 And one of the criticisms I got of what I was writing about was, well, you're just not defining masculinity very well.

00:03:36.220 And then so that just became my project to figure out how to do that better.

00:03:41.120 And I think a lot of men, you know, they know what masculinity is.

00:03:45.080 They can kind of sense it.

00:03:47.320 But when they go to explain it, they fall apart.

00:03:49.640 And then people can tell them it is whatever they want it to be, you know.

00:03:53.680 Right.

00:03:54.420 So, how did you use to define it?

00:03:55.940 When you got that critique or criticism, what was it that you were saying or explaining that wasn't coming across correctly, I guess, if you'd say?

00:04:04.560 Well, I was doing what everybody else does pretty much, you know, saying – I mean, some of the stuff I still agree with.

00:04:09.860 But, you know, in many cases, I'm like, you know, just saying things that you've heard.

00:04:14.220 Right.

00:04:14.600 You know, like, well, a man should definitely do this and he should – it wasn't a cohesive list of things that made sense together.

00:04:20.940 They were just, you know, some of them were cultural things and some of them weren't, you know, things from your dad or your grandpa or whatever.

00:04:27.400 Yeah, there's a lot of cliches when it comes to masculinity.

00:04:29.800 And as I explore deeper into this world, I can see how there's a lot of surface-level definitions that really don't go deep into what it means to be a man.

00:04:36.600 Absolutely.

00:04:37.180 Absolutely.

00:04:37.980 So, how has that changed and evolved for you and how do you articulate being a man now?

00:04:41.700 Now that I've, you know, kind of created a system for it, I've separated what it means to be good at being a man and what it means to be a good man.

00:04:52.760 And I think that that's – if you make that distinction between those two things, you know, you can differentiate whether you're talking about morality or masculinity because I think they're two different things.

00:05:02.660 And so, if you put those two – if you separate those two things, then you can kind of have a conversation about, well, how are we judging each other as men?

00:05:10.580 And my theory that I came up with is basically that we judge each other as men in the way that – because we've always had to exist in these survival bands.

00:05:21.140 And, you know, for most of human evolutionary history, you know, we've been in smaller – much smaller groups than we're in right now.

00:05:26.520 And we judge each other as men like, would that guy be any good?

00:05:30.880 You know, would that guy –

00:05:31.980 Right.

00:05:32.200 Would he be useful, right?

00:05:33.120 Yeah, would he be useful?

00:05:34.120 And, you know, so the traits that we look at each other, what I use are – I call them the four tactical virtues.

00:05:39.840 And there's strength, courage, mastery, and honor.

00:05:42.560 And, you know, strength is obvious and it has to be part of being a man because it's biologically part of being a man.

00:05:48.300 You know, so, I mean, I think that's easy.

00:05:50.840 You know, but obviously, you know, if you look at a man who's strong, a man who's weak,

00:05:55.040 you kind of want to rather have the strong guy on your team.

00:05:57.660 Of course.

00:05:59.080 Courage.

00:05:59.600 You don't have to be strong to be courageous.

00:06:01.880 You know, but, you know, the guy who's going to make the move when it's time to make the move

00:06:05.700 is the guy you want on your team, not the guy who's going to, you know, kind of hide in the background.

00:06:10.880 Right, or sit back or try to –

00:06:12.540 Yeah, because those guys can actually get you hurt.

00:06:14.280 I mean, you know, whether you're in – if you're in the military or in any, you know, a hunting situation or whatever,

00:06:19.820 the guys who are not going to take the risk for the group, you know,

00:06:23.280 they can put you in danger by not doing that.

00:06:25.900 You know, there's no society anywhere where the mainstream definition of masculinity has not put courage pretty high.

00:06:32.800 Sure.

00:06:33.000 You know, there's never been a place where people have said,

00:06:36.020 you know, I think that guy who's really afraid of everything, I think he's a pretty manly guy.

00:06:40.720 Right, right.

00:06:41.500 Yeah, it just doesn't happen.

00:06:42.120 It just doesn't happen.

00:06:42.920 So, I mean, it's one of those things that's cross-cultural.

00:06:45.700 Mastery is another virtue that I picked out because I think it's important, you know,

00:06:49.600 if you have strength and courage, that's great.

00:06:51.680 But if you can't do anything, you're not that useful anyway.

00:06:54.920 Right.

00:06:55.120 You're just kind of like this berserker that runs at things and probably, you know, hits the tree.

00:06:59.800 You know, but I think that men also judge each other in competence.

00:07:04.260 And that's kind of what it comes down to.

00:07:05.660 Like, you know, you can't – we don't really tolerate incompetence in each other.

00:07:10.100 Right.

00:07:10.360 And so I think that that's, you know, again, a function of, you know,

00:07:14.180 if we're in a serious situation, I need for you to be serious and take things seriously.

00:07:18.480 Right.

00:07:18.780 I mean, I know like even in – as a small example, you know, I've got some projects around the house

00:07:22.900 and I've got a lot of male friends who I could call but I've only got two or three who I actually

00:07:28.000 would call because they'd be useful in that situation to help me out.

00:07:31.320 Right, right, right.

00:07:32.520 Exactly.

00:07:33.000 As with any team, you know, you call different guys for different things.

00:07:36.980 Sure.

00:07:37.160 I know the guy who I'm going to call to help me fix a car.

00:07:41.020 And then the fourth one was honor.

00:07:44.400 And honor is a confusing thing usually.

00:07:46.700 You know, it has a lot of cultural definitions and a lot of moral definitions, especially in

00:07:51.160 the West.

00:07:52.140 When I'm talking about honor, I'm talking about specifically something that ends up

00:07:56.020 being something like loyalty.

00:07:57.400 Because if you can't show the group that you care what they think about you, if you

00:08:02.020 don't care about your reputation within a group, you know, why should they trust you?

00:08:05.940 Right.

00:08:06.020 You know, you're basically saying, by saying, I don't, and a lot of guys will say this today.

00:08:09.600 They're like, hey, I don't care what anybody, you know, anybody thinks about me, if they

00:08:12.480 think I'm a man or not.

00:08:13.600 Well, then they, then, you know, those guys shouldn't care about you because you're basically

00:08:18.280 insulting them.

00:08:19.680 Well, yeah.

00:08:20.340 You know, one of the things that I've heard in the past, and this was a great way to explain

00:08:23.800 it, is I was talking with someone about the way that we look, our appearance.

00:08:27.180 And what he said is he said, you honor those other people who you're around by the way

00:08:31.560 that you show up, by the way that you behave, by your style and your fashion.

00:08:35.980 You're actually honoring them and speaking to them in the way that you show up.

00:08:40.480 Is that what you're talking about?

00:08:41.440 Absolutely.

00:08:42.120 Yeah.

00:08:42.240 That's a great way to say it.

00:08:43.120 I mean, it depends what group it is.

00:08:44.960 I mean, if, you know, the, I say kind of, I'm building my group, a tribe myself, you

00:08:50.900 know, one of the things I've said to guys is like, you know, what I, one of the, they're

00:08:54.500 asked, they asked, what do you want?

00:08:56.080 And I'm like, well, I want a group of guys who I can be photographed with, you know, who

00:09:01.480 aren't going to make me look worse.

00:09:03.360 You know, I want a group of guys who look strong, who looked like they'd be something,

00:09:06.160 you know, formidable.

00:09:07.880 And, you know, so yeah, I think it, it has a lot to do with that.

00:09:11.380 You do honor the, the, the men you're around and show them respect by, you know, looking

00:09:16.000 a certain way or behaving in a certain way too.

00:09:18.760 And I think that that's why men get really bent out of shape when they feel like men

00:09:22.540 aren't behaving the right way.

00:09:23.980 Cause it's kind of our, our gut instinct to kind of step away from the guy who's acting

00:09:28.840 weird, you know, uh, you know, whether that's, you know, he's like being really flamboyant 0.70

00:09:34.120 or, or, uh, um, ridiculous, uh, or just irresponsible. 0.95

00:09:38.340 You know, the guy, you don't want to be associated with that guy. 0.62

00:09:40.740 And I think that because, uh, as it, you're mentally thinking as if you're still part

00:09:44.800 of a group, you know, like if I'm, if I'm near that guy, they're going to think I'm

00:09:48.100 like that guy.

00:09:49.080 Right.

00:09:49.220 You're just like guilty by association.

00:09:51.020 Yeah.

00:09:51.220 Yeah.

00:09:51.380 Yeah.

00:09:51.600 And you're, you're making our team look weak, dude.

00:09:54.400 Well, I want to talk more about all, uh, get into the four tactical virtues, but before

00:09:58.460 I do that, I want to skip back to something you said, which is defining and, and articulating

00:10:03.920 the difference between being a good man and being good at being a man.

00:10:08.120 So talk to me a little bit more about the differences between those two things.

00:10:12.360 Cause when you see it on the surface level, you could think that actually means the same

00:10:16.440 thing, but you're saying it doesn't.

00:10:18.100 Right.

00:10:18.300 Right.

00:10:18.680 Um, when I'm talking about being good at being a man, I'm talking about, uh, those tactical

00:10:23.400 virtues because you can have a really bad guy, uh, you know, by any definition or just

00:10:30.440 by, you know, your enemy can be really bad.

00:10:32.980 Like, you know, your enemy can be really manly, but also not someone you'd want around.

00:10:38.100 Sure.

00:10:38.560 Uh, you know, so, I mean, we, we tend to make everyone we don't like evil, uh, and, and

00:10:44.400 unmanly, you know, that's what that's, if you think about groups insulting each other,

00:10:47.900 they'll insult each other's manliness.

00:10:49.220 That's, that's what men do. 0.98

00:10:51.220 Uh, you know, that, that group, you know, they're a bunch of, you know, whatever, you

00:10:54.400 know, I think it's important, uh, to separate the, those, uh, that morality.

00:10:58.280 And this, the basic virtues, you know, you can be strong and courageous and you can be

00:11:04.420 extremely competent and, you know, you can care about group people would in your group

00:11:08.420 care.

00:11:08.860 I've used the controversial kind of example of, uh, uh, you know, uh, terrorist bombers.

00:11:14.040 They're being really loyal to their group.

00:11:16.500 They are honoring their group, just not ours.

00:11:20.120 Right.

00:11:20.280 Uh, you know, they are, and you know, it's takes a lot of courage to kill yourself in

00:11:26.160 public or, you know, I mean, that's, that's not something for the, you know, the weak to

00:11:30.960 do, but, uh, that takes a lot of commitment.

00:11:32.660 And, and, uh, so you can, you can be all those things, not have the same morality as

00:11:37.380 the, as, as a given group.

00:11:39.600 Right.

00:11:39.980 I mean, you can use the extreme example, even of like Adolf Hitler.

00:11:43.100 I mean, there, there's a case to be made that he's a very strong, it was a very strong

00:11:47.120 leader, right.

00:11:48.400 And, and very convincing.

00:11:49.860 And there's a lot of traits that he had that if they would have been used for good, it

00:11:53.500 could have done a lot of good in the world.

00:11:55.200 So you're talking about intentions and morality versus the tactical virtues.

00:11:59.600 Like you said, Mussolini was a pretty manly guy, at least he wanted everyone to say he

00:12:03.520 was, you know, he ran around on the beach with his shirt off and, uh, that, you know,

00:12:08.600 tried to, tried to look, uh, heroic, you know, and the, another example was, is, uh, prisoners.

00:12:13.520 They broke the law of the land, you know, but there's a lot of guys in jail who are undeniably

00:12:18.060 manly.

00:12:19.280 In fact, they're probably some sociologists would say called hyper-masculine.

00:12:23.500 Um, all these traits that we're talking about, they're not afraid to take risks.

00:12:27.900 There's some strong guys in jail, you know, and they're, they're very, they're plugged

00:12:31.560 into an honor culture, gang members of the gangs are an honor culture.

00:12:35.460 And, uh, you know, they're, they're obviously good at something and it might be killing,

00:12:40.900 you know, but, uh, you might want them on your team and in a different society, you know?

00:12:45.760 So I think that, uh, making the distinction between what we think, you know, makes someone

00:12:50.680 a moral person, you know, it helps you to understand what masculinity really is and isn't.

00:12:55.540 Right.

00:12:55.700 So are you saying, so in certain situations, it really just is the four tactical virtues,

00:12:59.800 but I think most of modern society, you probably want not only the tactical virtues, but that

00:13:03.760 morality factor as well.

00:13:05.100 Right.

00:13:05.660 Yeah.

00:13:05.900 Any, any society is going to have its own morality.

00:13:07.840 Uh, you know, so it's any, any group has its own morality, uh, it's all in the rules

00:13:12.980 and, uh, you know, it just, you'd have to make distinction if you really want to understand

00:13:16.600 the concept of masculinity just by itself.

00:13:19.340 It's just really important to, to not get confused between two different groups rules

00:13:23.700 because then, then it, you know, then you become open to, you know, this preacher says

00:13:29.280 that being a man is, you know, sending him money every month.

00:13:31.740 And this, you know, this, this guy says blowing yourself up is, uh, is the manliest thing

00:13:36.200 you can do.

00:13:36.640 And, and, uh, you know, I think that makes it really confusing for people who, uh, uh,

00:13:41.820 you know, are trying to understand what masculinity is and, and decide what kind of man they want

00:13:46.100 to be.

00:13:46.840 You talk a lot about, obviously with your book, the way of men, you talk about the way

00:13:50.560 of men is the way of the gang.

00:13:53.080 And a lot of, especially in the beginning of the book, you talk a lot about how men with

00:13:57.900 the four tactical virtues were quote unquote, the man and the masculine, right.

00:14:01.820 And that those were men that were needed.

00:14:03.860 And how has that changed from ancient civilization to modern society?

00:14:08.420 You know, one of the basic principles of evolutionary psychology is that, uh, we still do the things

00:14:13.500 that we were, we evolved to do, whether we like it or not, you know, it's part of who

00:14:18.560 we are.

00:14:18.660 It's just ingrained in us.

00:14:19.400 Yeah.

00:14:19.680 Yeah.

00:14:19.900 So, I mean, I don't think masculinity has actually changed at all.

00:14:22.760 Uh, what the society needs for men at a given time does change.

00:14:26.360 You know, we still want to be masculine.

00:14:29.440 Uh, that's our nature.

00:14:30.160 We want to show other men that we're masculine.

00:14:31.880 We want to be not the guy who wouldn't get picked for the team.

00:14:35.000 Right.

00:14:35.380 Uh, you know, we want to show, we want to be respected by other men, but, uh, you know,

00:14:39.280 our society right now, uh, doesn't have a lot of need for those, uh, virtues.

00:14:44.360 Uh, you don't have to be any of those things to survive in our society right now.

00:14:48.240 But, uh, you know, it is important to, to think that, understand one, that's because

00:14:53.360 we're outsourcing those skills.

00:14:55.100 You know, there's only a few, we only need X number of, uh, policemen, firefighters, and

00:15:00.140 soldiers.

00:15:00.640 It's not that those aren't needed at all.

00:15:03.940 It's just that, or aren't being used.

00:15:05.640 It's just that, you know, we need a lower percentage of them, uh, you know, because we

00:15:08.880 have these big governments and that's why I'm kind of a big fan of, of smaller, uh, governments

00:15:13.680 and smaller, uh, situations because I think it gives more, more men the opportunity to

00:15:17.700 do what they naturally want to do, uh, and channel it in a good way.

00:15:21.500 But, uh, it's changed in terms of the second thing that you have to remember when we talk

00:15:25.660 about, uh, how masculinity has changed is that nothing is permanent.

00:15:29.480 Uh, just because those skills aren't needed right now, it doesn't mean they will never

00:15:33.620 be needed again.

00:15:34.460 Right.

00:15:34.920 Uh, so, you know, if a disaster strikes your area, all of a sudden, you know, you're basically

00:15:39.720 depending on all those guys who have been, we've been outsourcing, uh, your

00:15:43.200 masculinity to, to do the work for you.

00:15:46.420 Sure.

00:15:46.780 Because if you don't know how to do anything and you're weak and you're scared, you're 0.99

00:15:50.160 useless in that situation. 0.96

00:15:51.340 You are basically the same as the women and children and elderly. 1.00

00:15:55.400 You're just something, someone that needs to be taken care of.

00:15:58.040 So how does a guy develop some of those skills?

00:16:01.060 You know, you talk about protecting the perimeter.

00:16:03.120 You talk about hunting.

00:16:03.900 How does a guy develop some of those skills that he may need to have in a situation like

00:16:08.220 that, that wouldn't normally be called for in his life?

00:16:10.900 Well, there are lots of ways in terms of regular, you know,

00:16:13.160 there's a lot of guys who teach those skills.

00:16:14.820 Um, I actually, uh, I actually did one of my own podcasts with a guy recently, uh, Greg

00:16:20.000 Hamilton.

00:16:20.500 He, uh, he teaches a firearms training.

00:16:23.560 And, uh, so that's, uh, I mean, his argument is that, uh, you know, that's, that is the

00:16:28.980 modern tool to do the thing that you may have to do someday.

00:16:33.380 And, uh, so if you aren't competent with it, you know, he, he thinks it's one of the most,

00:16:37.460 uh, important things you can use under the, the mastery heading.

00:16:41.280 I think that it's, it's an important skill.

00:16:43.100 He feels like that, uh, every man should have, you know, and that goes to any kind of self-defense

00:16:47.800 skills, any kind of fighting skills, uh, you know, you can learn.

00:16:52.080 Uh, so that's out there.

00:16:54.380 Um, and, uh, putting yourself in those situations actually kind of helps you build those tactical

00:16:59.140 virtues anyway, because, uh, you know, if you're in a situation, you're just sitting

00:17:02.360 home on your couch watching TV, you can fantasize that you're one day you're going to be the

00:17:05.920 courageous hero who takes the great leap.

00:17:08.540 And, uh, when it, when the time comes, you're going to stand up and do what's right.

00:17:12.640 But if you don't have any personal history of doing that, that's probably not the case.

00:17:18.240 Right.

00:17:18.760 Right.

00:17:19.000 It's not going to change in a situation like that.

00:17:21.260 You're not going to bounce into the room and suddenly know how to throw a punch and,

00:17:24.380 and, uh, uh, you know, and, and all of a sudden, you know, be, you know, some ninja PA, you

00:17:29.560 know, the silence, a bunch of attackers very quickly, you know, you're not going to be that

00:17:34.060 guy.

00:17:34.460 Uh, I mean, and that's the fantasy that I think Hollywood sells people is that, uh, you know,

00:17:39.500 you know, it's always, you know, so many movies where the, the, the little nerd guy suddenly

00:17:44.080 comes out and, you know, saves everyone from, uh, you know, he turns into this great

00:17:48.520 hero and, um, you know, but really those, uh, masculinity, like anything else, I mean,

00:17:53.940 you have, it's like intelligence, you can be really smart, but it requires some development.

00:17:59.540 You know, you can just, otherwise you're just this person that remembers things and, you

00:18:02.780 know, repeats them, uh, and, uh, you know, can do math or something.

00:18:06.480 But, uh, you know, I mean, obviously like math is a great example.

00:18:08.980 Like you don't, you have to learn that you have an aptitude for it.

00:18:13.080 And I think that, you know, masculinity is very much the same way.

00:18:15.620 I mean, we have a certain strength, but you have to train to be strong.

00:18:19.120 Uh, if you don't do anything physically, you're not going to be strong no matter how

00:18:23.180 good your genetics are.

00:18:24.560 And, uh, you know, in terms of courage, again, it's if you're not used to taking risks, you're

00:18:29.180 not going to take a risk.

00:18:30.600 Sure.

00:18:31.060 Right.

00:18:31.320 Of course.

00:18:31.780 You know, I mean, it's, you know, it could happen, but you know, you know, so yeah, I mean,

00:18:35.460 anything that puts you in the situations where you can build those kinds of skills and those

00:18:39.220 virtues, uh, you know, making you more, uh, more useful man.

00:18:43.120 Right.

00:18:43.260 Yeah.

00:18:43.540 And, and, and I totally agree.

00:18:45.100 I mean, one of the things that I take as a small example of some of the races, you know,

00:18:48.680 I participate in some of these Spartan races, um, Ragnar relay races.

00:18:52.380 I mean, even those things to a degree, because you have all this physical training and you're

00:18:55.600 exerting yourself, right?

00:18:56.640 Your physical self.

00:18:57.500 And so those things to me, yes, it's not direct training, but you can use and draw upon the

00:19:02.600 skills and the things that you've learned in that training to, uh,

00:19:05.440 get yourself out of, uh, maybe a tough situation or a situation that you don't want to be in.

00:19:09.680 Sure.

00:19:09.960 Sure.

00:19:10.340 Sure.

00:19:10.900 I mean, at very least you're building endurance, right?

00:19:12.780 Yeah.

00:19:12.940 Right.

00:19:13.460 So I'm reading your book and I've, and I've gone through your stuff and I've, and I've

00:19:16.560 seen your blog and a lot of the stuff sounds like common sense, right?

00:19:19.840 I mean, because you're talking about the tactical virtues, but then I also see a lot of pushback,

00:19:24.640 you know, and I think there's some controversy about some of the things that you say,

00:19:27.380 what are some of the things that people are saying that's maybe pushback or they don't agree

00:19:31.360 with what, what your philosophy is?

00:19:34.000 Well, I mean, that's how it is.

00:19:35.440 You know, if you say anything, yeah, you're going to get some pushback and that's life.

00:19:38.420 So I'm not too worried about that.

00:19:39.640 I actually haven't gotten too much in that direction.

00:19:42.220 I mean, there's just people who are going to tap into the message and want to be better

00:19:46.900 at being men.

00:19:47.720 And then there are people who, you know, their egos are threatened by that.

00:19:50.900 You know, they're like, you know, well, we don't, you know, especially, you know,

00:19:54.240 you have a guy who only does computers and that's all he cares about.

00:19:56.980 A thing with masculinity is that because we all kind of want to be masculine, uh, men try and

00:20:01.520 find a way that, to, to explain that the thing that they do is actually the most masculine

00:20:06.040 thing in the world.

00:20:07.340 Right.

00:20:07.740 So, you know, it's always the philosopher or the engineer, uh, who wants to be like,

00:20:13.020 well, you know, you guys just kill people. 0.70

00:20:14.860 I build things.

00:20:15.800 So, you know, uh, right.

00:20:18.160 You know, I build things.

00:20:19.160 I teach people how to think, you know, therefore I'm manlier than you are.

00:20:22.820 Uh, and that's just a little game that men play. 0.99

00:20:25.120 But, uh, you know, I think that it is very threatening when you, when you look at those

00:20:29.520 skills and realize that you don't have any, I'm basically saying you're not very manly,

00:20:33.000 you know, and I'm not saying that I'm the manliest man in the world.

00:20:35.920 Uh, that's not the point of writing this book.

00:20:38.000 I, you know, people always kind of assume that.

00:20:39.800 And, uh, I'm a pretty average guy with pretty average, like natural capacities and all those

00:20:45.920 things.

00:20:47.060 Um, I mean, I'm, don't consider myself the exemplar that you're supposed to be.

00:20:51.480 In fact, I'm kind of lucky with this book is that I have readers that are so much better

00:20:56.100 than me at everything, but they, they, they recognize that, you know, what I'm saying is

00:21:01.960 something that they've always thought, but have never articulated.

00:21:05.160 Right.

00:21:05.380 And your ability to be able to define that and help guys on the path, I think is

00:21:09.640 valuable as well.

00:21:10.540 I mean, I feel the same way.

00:21:11.620 I'm not an expert at being a man, but I'm, but there's some things that have worked well

00:21:15.360 for me and there's some things that haven't worked well for me.

00:21:17.460 And if I can share those and be a catalyst to help other guys, then I'm going to do it.

00:21:21.000 Yeah.

00:21:21.160 Yeah.

00:21:21.340 I mean, that's, you know, that's your skill.

00:21:23.000 That's my skill.

00:21:23.620 Yeah.

00:21:24.140 So, I mean, that's, that's good.

00:21:25.580 And, you know, it is really gratifying kind of look at the people who are, who have negative

00:21:29.880 things to say about what I've written.

00:21:30.960 And I'm like, man, I don't want to be that guy, you know, but I have guys write me all the

00:21:35.020 time who have like, I like the firearms guy.

00:21:37.320 I mean, he, he, uh, read my book and he's used to be, uh, what special forces.

00:21:42.220 Oh, is that right?

00:21:42.880 Yeah.

00:21:43.080 He used to be special forces.

00:21:44.060 He used to, you know, he'd be a bounty hunter.

00:21:45.800 He's done all these things.

00:21:46.660 I have a lot of guys like that.

00:21:48.340 I, you know, I have four or five guys who are regularly on my Facebook who are ex-special

00:21:51.460 forces and a lot of martial arts instructors and all that.

00:21:54.780 So I'm like, if these guys are agreeing with what I'm saying, I'm happy with that.

00:21:57.880 Yeah.

00:21:58.260 You're attracting the right kind of person.

00:21:59.820 Yeah.

00:22:00.000 I don't mean if I, you know, I don't need to necessarily be on a CNN and I need to go on the view

00:22:04.940 and hear what the ladies have to say, uh, I'm much more interested in the guys who I

00:22:09.360 want to be more like and what they have to say.

00:22:11.960 Well, let's jump back to the tactical virtues because I think when I'm looking at them, we

00:22:14.900 see strength and we see courage, mastery, and honor.

00:22:17.620 And I think with mastery and strength, it's pretty self-explanatory.

00:22:21.440 And I think a lot of guys just know, Hey, I can develop these things.

00:22:24.680 I've got to go work out or maybe there's a new skill, whether it's firearms training or

00:22:28.520 self-defense that I want to learn.

00:22:29.800 And so you go do those things, but how do you develop these other virtues, courage and

00:22:34.220 honor?

00:22:34.560 How are those things?

00:22:35.640 How, how can you be better at those things?

00:22:37.860 And what are some of the exercises that guys could do?

00:22:40.680 Well, with honor, you just kind of, you have to want to, you have to want to care about

00:22:44.640 other, uh, you know, decide that, I mean, that's kind of the first step actually what,

00:22:49.360 you know, what you said there is, uh, you know, if they decide they want to be more masculine

00:22:53.640 and you know, that, that is honor, you know, if they want to decide they want to be a

00:22:57.800 better man and be viewed as being, you know, better at being a man that is on.

00:23:03.060 Um, so that is, you know, caring about that is, is what honor is.

00:23:05.860 And then, you know, in terms of developing, uh, loyalty, I think that's again, a personal

00:23:10.920 choice.

00:23:11.980 Uh, you know how you have to say, this is the kind of man I want to be, and this is how

00:23:15.340 I want to behave around other men.

00:23:17.000 And, uh, this is the kind of group that I'd want to be in and, uh, behave accordingly.

00:23:21.660 That's what honor is.

00:23:22.540 And holding yourself to that rule because, you know, everybody in society today wants

00:23:26.360 to, uh, excuse you, you know, or come up with a reason why you're a victim and you

00:23:30.660 couldn't do this, you couldn't do that.

00:23:31.980 You know, honor is making the choice not to be that guy.

00:23:33.980 Right.

00:23:34.200 And, uh, you know, when it comes to courage, um, I mean, that's why you can put yourself

00:23:37.960 in risk situations.

00:23:39.320 Uh, you know, we live in a very protected society.

00:23:41.960 Uh, so in most of those risk situations, you're probably not going to die.

00:23:45.620 The martial arts thing is a good example.

00:23:47.180 When I first started sparring last year, you know, and I've only done a little bit of it,

00:23:50.380 but when you first start sparring, it's like the reality of like, someone's going to come

00:23:54.240 and try and knock you out, you know, is something, the more times you deal with that, the more,

00:23:59.600 you know, courageous you're going to be in that situation.

00:24:02.180 Um, you know, more times you process that fear and get past it.

00:24:05.340 There's same things a guy was talking to the other day said, uh, you know, a lot of people,

00:24:08.940 a lot of military organizations use like things like rock climbing, something where you're

00:24:12.300 going to deal with a middling amount of fear, but you're probably not going to die.

00:24:16.240 So, you know, developing courage, I think is from putting yourself in those kinds of

00:24:19.400 situations and, uh, you know, overcoming them.

00:24:21.740 And yeah, just seeing those, being exposed to those over and over again, right?

00:24:24.660 Yeah.

00:24:24.800 Yeah.

00:24:24.940 Building a track record of success.

00:24:26.760 Well, and so you talk a lot about with honor, how being around the right people, I think is

00:24:31.120 kind of an underlying theme of this as well.

00:24:32.820 And so you've talked about quote unquote, starting a gang.

00:24:35.300 So in your book, so tell me a little bit about that and how a guy would go about doing

00:24:38.920 that, because I think it's important that you surround yourself with the kind of guys

00:24:42.680 that you want to be around and be like.

00:24:45.020 Absolutely.

00:24:45.800 Absolutely.

00:24:46.200 And I think that, you know, I couldn't have phrased it any better.

00:24:48.320 Um, you know, that, that I think, uh, people always ask, you know, how can I be more manly?

00:24:52.680 And I'm like, well, surround yourself with men who are better than you at things.

00:24:56.140 Uh, you know, they'll, they'll hold you accountable, but, uh, actually forming a group of men is

00:25:00.620 a phenomenally difficult task in this day and age.

00:25:03.220 Uh, getting adult men to do anything on a regular basis is really, really hard.

00:25:10.500 Why is that?

00:25:11.340 Why do you think it's so difficult?

00:25:12.520 Well, our society doesn't really make, uh, make room for it, uh, to a certain extent.

00:25:16.660 I mean, in, in other, you know, societies, it was always there.

00:25:19.920 Men had, you know, men went and did this kind of work and they were usually together.

00:25:24.080 So they had man time.

00:25:25.540 They didn't have to, they didn't have to organize it.

00:25:28.540 Whereas like, uh, you know, most, most guys, they'll go to, you know, a completely mixed 1.00

00:25:31.940 workplace.

00:25:32.500 You know, they have time at home, either alone or with their spouses or whatever.

00:25:35.600 And, uh, you know, they have to schedule time to hang out with friends.

00:25:40.200 You have to actively do that.

00:25:41.900 And, uh, it's, uh, you know, it is.

00:25:43.760 And the thing is when you build building friendships with men, it takes a lot of time.

00:25:48.220 Men don't trust everyone they meet.

00:25:50.280 You know, it's not, let's get together and share our feelings.

00:25:53.220 We just met.

00:25:54.200 Right.

00:25:54.720 It's not going to happen.

00:25:55.500 That's not going to happen.

00:25:56.260 I mean, you have to build a trust.

00:25:57.360 You have to build trust.

00:25:58.800 Lionel tiger was actually one of the first people to talk about the minute concept of male

00:26:03.400 bonding.

00:26:04.780 And, uh, one thing that he has always talked about is that, uh, you know, you have to be

00:26:08.860 basically be aggressing against something.

00:26:10.680 And that goes back to the idea of the gang.

00:26:12.340 And it doesn't mean that you have to be killing somebody.

00:26:15.000 It does, but it does mean you have to be facing a challenge together.

00:26:18.520 Yeah.

00:26:18.760 You know, so anytime you have a bunch of guys who are going to do a challenge and that's

00:26:21.520 why I think men really like, you know, team sports and, uh, you know, it's kind of,

00:26:26.120 you know, they feel good about that, that, that dynamic.

00:26:29.380 Um, so, I mean, that, that's an area where you can build those kinds of friends.

00:26:32.160 I mean, it's not kind of my thing, but, uh, you know, you can, that's one of the easiest,

00:26:36.000 most socially acceptable ways to join a rugby team or something.

00:26:39.060 So Jack, tell me, uh, tell me what's next for you.

00:26:41.060 What, what's going on in your life?

00:26:42.340 Do we have any big plans?

00:26:43.340 What can we expect coming down the pike from you? 1.00

00:26:45.860 Uh, well, I'm trying to wrap up a book, uh, right now, uh, called becoming barbarians.

00:26:50.360 And, uh, basically kind of has to do with the, uh, idea of how you, uh, transform from

00:26:56.480 someone who thinks of themselves as part of, part of, uh, this society to, to somebody

00:27:01.000 who's, you know, starting something new and, uh, thinking, thinking more tribally.

00:27:04.840 Actually, I'm giving a speech, uh, in Washington, DC pretty soon about the tribal mind and kind

00:27:10.380 of adopting a more tribal mindset as opposed to like a morally universal mindset.

00:27:14.980 So that's what I've been working on.

00:27:16.280 And also, uh, I, I actually formed a t-shirt company the other day.

00:27:19.480 I think I'm going to have fun and make, uh, make a lot of cool, uh, stuff this next year.

00:27:25.340 Uh, so that's kind of, that's kind of my big project right now that I'm really excited

00:27:28.500 about.

00:27:29.300 So do you have that up and running?

00:27:30.860 Is that something we can check out right now or is that still in the works?

00:27:33.880 Not yet.

00:27:34.400 It is actually called a brutal company LLC, but, uh, I'm not putting anything out until,

00:27:40.140 uh, the beginning of next year.

00:27:41.640 Uh, I just had such good luck with, uh, my essay violence is golden and, uh, uh, uh, selling

00:27:47.160 these violence is golden patches that I couldn't keep in stock really that, uh, yeah, yeah.

00:27:51.400 So I just, uh, I had a lot of luck with that and had a lot of fun with it.

00:27:54.580 So, uh, and I have a lot of ideas.

00:27:56.080 So, I mean, thank, there's probably a violence is golden t-shirt in the, in the works and,

00:27:59.640 uh, uh, a bunch of things, uh, related to my work, uh, that, uh, I can put out there.

00:28:05.140 Nice.

00:28:05.480 Just be sure to keep us in the loop so we can get that information out there as well.

00:28:08.320 Cool.

00:28:09.480 So the next question I want to ask is something that I ask all of our guests and I prepared you

00:28:13.640 a little bit for it.

00:28:14.620 And this is something that you study obviously.

00:28:17.400 So I'm excited to hear your answer.

00:28:18.700 And that question is, what does it mean to be a man?

00:28:22.860 Well, geez, uh, to, to be a man, you know, it's basically, I mean, obviously I think of,

00:28:29.120 uh, masculinity as it's, as part of these concepts that I've talked about, you know, the strength,

00:28:35.580 courage, mastery, and honor.

00:28:36.880 And so to be a man to me, I mean, I think is to work constantly to embody those characteristics.

00:28:42.780 People always, I love the term insecure and what's secure.

00:28:46.940 And, and, uh, cause to me, I don't think that means a lot.

00:28:49.400 Cause I think we should always be working, not resting on our laurels and, uh, always

00:28:54.060 be working to be stronger and more courageous and, uh, and to better ourselves.

00:28:58.380 I don't value the kind of people who have stopped, you know, people who have stopped.

00:29:03.840 So to me, being a man is being, you know, always better than you were before trying to

00:29:07.860 embody this idea of man.

00:29:09.280 Cause no one is the perfect man.

00:29:11.160 No one is the ultimate embodiment of masculinity.

00:29:14.360 Of course, you know, so it's, it's this aspirational ideal.

00:29:18.840 So to be a man is to, uh, I think Mishima said something to that effect, uh, to be a

00:29:23.820 man is to strive forever through this mountain peak.

00:29:26.580 I mean, that's, that's what it really means to me.

00:29:28.960 Yes.

00:29:29.480 Perfect example.

00:29:30.320 Always continuing to improve yourself.

00:29:31.760 Always continuing to move forward.

00:29:33.080 I like that.

00:29:34.220 So Jack, I really appreciate your time.

00:29:35.760 I know you're a busy man.

00:29:36.580 You've got a lot going on.

00:29:37.360 You've got a new business starting up.

00:29:38.560 You've got to talk the end in DC, the end of this month, you've got a ton going on.

00:29:42.080 Um, so I appreciate you being on the show, but I wanted to ask you if, if the guys that

00:29:46.260 are listening to this resonate with your message and what you have to say, or they want to find

00:29:49.700 out about your book, the way of men, which I've read, and it's a great book.

00:29:53.020 So I appreciate that.

00:29:54.140 Uh, or any of your new books or anything else coming out, how do we connect with you?

00:29:57.820 How do we reach out to you?

00:29:58.980 Oh, well, these way, um, I just redid my website.

00:30:01.560 It's a Jack dash Donovan.com.

00:30:04.340 Um, and I'm obviously Googleable as well.

00:30:07.440 Uh, but, uh, yeah, Jack dash Donovan.com and, uh, you know, on there.

00:30:12.080 And on YouTube, there's actually a really short video, uh, my kind of introduction to

00:30:16.440 the way of men.

00:30:17.320 And I think that's a good starting place.

00:30:18.940 There's also a free, uh, ebook that I wrote some years ago about, uh, masculinity and feminism

00:30:24.160 and kind of this conversation that's been happening about, uh, uh, the decline of men.

00:30:28.500 Uh, it's, it's called a no man's land.

00:30:30.420 So that's just something that you could read for free.

00:30:32.640 Uh, so, uh, yeah, I mean, that's, and I actually just deleted my Twitter last night, so I'm

00:30:38.220 not doing that anymore, but I really like Instagram.

00:30:40.580 So, uh, that's, uh, uh, I'm on Instagram at start the world.

00:30:44.380 Well, we'll make sure we make, uh, all those connections on the show notes page.

00:30:47.700 So the guys that are listening can connect with you again, Jack, I really appreciate

00:30:50.700 you taking the time and being on the show today.

00:30:52.140 All right, man.

00:30:52.660 Thanks guys.

00:30:54.360 There you have it.

00:30:54.880 Mr.

00:30:55.140 Jack Donovan, you are now walking away with the four tactical virtues.

00:30:58.780 All men need to strive to improve and an understanding of the difference between masculinity and

00:31:04.520 morality and why that's so important for us as men to understand.

00:31:07.260 Now, again, if you've enjoyed the show, if you learned anything new, if you want to say

00:31:10.880 thank you, please, please, please leave us your iTunes review.

00:31:15.180 You can do that at order of men.com slash iTunes and leave that rating review.

00:31:19.080 And remember our Facebook group, if you haven't checked that out and our order of man t-shirts,

00:31:23.260 which can be found at order of men.com slash shirts.

00:31:26.220 I'd love to see all of you guys wearing those shirts.

00:31:29.600 Now, next week, we're going to be talking with a friend of mine who runs a company that

00:31:32.140 helps men transition from youth to becoming a man.

00:31:35.120 If you've ever seen the movie failure to launch, you'll have an idea of what it is that this

00:31:38.360 guy's doing for men all over the world.

00:31:40.020 We're going to be talking about why men struggle to make it to manhood and what can be done about

00:31:44.560 it.

00:31:44.740 Guys, I look forward to talking to you next week, but until then take action and become the

00:31:48.780 man you were meant to be.

00:31:49.840 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

00:31:53.920 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

00:31:57.940 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

00:32:01.060 Thank you.

00:32:02.160 Thank you.

00:32:03.040 Thank you.

00:32:07.200 Thank you.

Order of Man - October 27, 2015

OoM 032： Becoming a Man Through 4 Tactical Virtues with Jack Donovan

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