OoM 032： Becoming a Man Through 4 Tactical Virtues with Jack Donovan
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
227.42131
Summary
Jack Donovan is the author of The Way of Men, which has become a runaway cult hit with men all over the world. He s been blogging, writing, speaking about masculinity and tribalism since 2007, and is currently building a tribe in the Pacific Northwest.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
Being a man is hard work. We all have so many roles and responsibilities. Husband, father, business owner, community leader, and the list goes on and on.
00:00:07.520
And in addition to that, the media and the world are trying to tell us how we should behave and what it means to be a man by giving us a list of things like 27 ways to be a modern man.
00:00:17.040
My guest today, Mr. Jack Donovan, has narrowed it down to four tactical virtues that all men should strive to improve, the difference between masculinity and morality, and why we should care.
00:00:26.700
You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
00:00:32.980
When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient. Strong.
00:00:42.460
This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
00:00:51.700
Welcome back to the Order Man Podcast. My name is Ryan Mickler. I am the host and the founder of Order Man, and I'm glad to be back with you here again today.
00:01:00.280
Now, I've got Mr. Jack Donovan on the show to talk about, you guessed it, masculinity.
00:01:04.200
But before I get into the show today, I want to give a quick thanks to those of you who left iTunes reviews last week. I appreciate that.
00:01:12.700
I really enjoy this content because it's positive, motivating, and encouraging while being relevant and informational.
00:01:18.160
Keep up the good work, fellas. Men, helping men improve themselves by providing positive content as well as a community gathered around.
00:01:24.020
I feel like this podcast is helping me become better myself, thus improving my relationships, business, physical, and mental health.
00:01:30.740
Great brain food and confidence builder. Looking forward to hearing more.
00:01:35.180
If you haven't left your review yet, I know you will. You can do that over at orderofman.com slash iTunes.
00:01:40.780
And I also wanted to let you know that we just printed a small run of the inaugural Order of Man t-shirts.
00:01:48.320
They're for sale right now. You can find those at orderofman.com slash shirts.
00:01:52.360
We don't have very many of them, so if you want one, you better jump on that quick.
00:01:55.560
I'd love to see as many guys wearing those shirts as possible.
00:01:58.120
Now, I'm not going to talk too much about this today because I've mentioned it a ton before.
00:02:01.940
But if you're interested, know that we've got over 800 of us and we're having some great conversations on our Order of Man Facebook group,
00:02:10.560
which you can join, and I've told you this before, at facebook.com slash groups slash Order of Man.
00:02:17.780
Show notes, guys, the links, the information, and the best quotes from today's show can all be found at orderofman.com slash 032.
00:02:26.700
He is the author of The Way of Men, which has become a runaway cult hit with men all over the world.
00:02:31.080
He's been blogging, writing, speaking about masculinity and tribalism since 2007.
00:02:37.780
Now, he's currently building a tribe in the Pacific Northwest, and he also owns a tattoo shop and a powerlifting gym.
00:02:44.020
He also just barely started a t-shirt company, which he suggests in this interview as well, so he's got a lot going on.
00:02:48.900
He's a frequent guest on a wide variety of podcasts.
00:02:51.540
He's an occasional contributor to the online magazine Radix.
00:02:54.040
He also runs his own podcast, many of you may have heard, Start the World, where he interviews self-defense experts, survivalists, authors, and artists.
00:03:02.420
Jack, thanks for joining us today. Excited to have you on the show.
00:03:05.900
So, the first question I want to ask is, how did you get into this world of defining masculinity and manhood and really just exploring this topic?
00:03:14.220
Well, it was something that I've always been vaguely interested in gender studies, but from the other angle.
00:03:24.520
And then when I was in my mid-30s, I started writing about it a little bit.
00:03:29.640
And one of the criticisms I got of what I was writing about was, well, you're just not defining masculinity very well.
00:03:36.220
And then so that just became my project to figure out how to do that better.
00:03:41.120
And I think a lot of men, you know, they know what masculinity is.
00:03:47.320
But when they go to explain it, they fall apart.
00:03:49.640
And then people can tell them it is whatever they want it to be, you know.
00:03:55.940
When you got that critique or criticism, what was it that you were saying or explaining that wasn't coming across correctly, I guess, if you'd say?
00:04:04.560
Well, I was doing what everybody else does pretty much, you know, saying – I mean, some of the stuff I still agree with.
00:04:09.860
But, you know, in many cases, I'm like, you know, just saying things that you've heard.
00:04:14.600
You know, like, well, a man should definitely do this and he should – it wasn't a cohesive list of things that made sense together.
00:04:20.940
They were just, you know, some of them were cultural things and some of them weren't, you know, things from your dad or your grandpa or whatever.
00:04:27.400
Yeah, there's a lot of cliches when it comes to masculinity.
00:04:29.800
And as I explore deeper into this world, I can see how there's a lot of surface-level definitions that really don't go deep into what it means to be a man.
00:04:37.980
So, how has that changed and evolved for you and how do you articulate being a man now?
00:04:41.700
Now that I've, you know, kind of created a system for it, I've separated what it means to be good at being a man and what it means to be a good man.
00:04:52.760
And I think that that's – if you make that distinction between those two things, you know, you can differentiate whether you're talking about morality or masculinity because I think they're two different things.
00:05:02.660
And so, if you put those two – if you separate those two things, then you can kind of have a conversation about, well, how are we judging each other as men?
00:05:10.580
And my theory that I came up with is basically that we judge each other as men in the way that – because we've always had to exist in these survival bands.
00:05:21.140
And, you know, for most of human evolutionary history, you know, we've been in smaller – much smaller groups than we're in right now.
00:05:26.520
And we judge each other as men like, would that guy be any good?
00:05:34.120
And, you know, so the traits that we look at each other, what I use are – I call them the four tactical virtues.
00:05:39.840
And there's strength, courage, mastery, and honor.
00:05:42.560
And, you know, strength is obvious and it has to be part of being a man because it's biologically part of being a man.
00:05:50.840
You know, but obviously, you know, if you look at a man who's strong, a man who's weak,
00:05:55.040
you kind of want to rather have the strong guy on your team.
00:06:01.880
You know, but, you know, the guy who's going to make the move when it's time to make the move
00:06:05.700
is the guy you want on your team, not the guy who's going to, you know, kind of hide in the background.
00:06:12.540
Yeah, because those guys can actually get you hurt.
00:06:14.280
I mean, you know, whether you're in – if you're in the military or in any, you know, a hunting situation or whatever,
00:06:19.820
the guys who are not going to take the risk for the group, you know,
00:06:25.900
You know, there's no society anywhere where the mainstream definition of masculinity has not put courage pretty high.
00:06:33.000
You know, there's never been a place where people have said,
00:06:36.020
you know, I think that guy who's really afraid of everything, I think he's a pretty manly guy.
00:06:42.920
So, I mean, it's one of those things that's cross-cultural.
00:06:45.700
Mastery is another virtue that I picked out because I think it's important, you know,
00:06:49.600
if you have strength and courage, that's great.
00:06:51.680
But if you can't do anything, you're not that useful anyway.
00:06:55.120
You're just kind of like this berserker that runs at things and probably, you know, hits the tree.
00:06:59.800
You know, but I think that men also judge each other in competence.
00:07:05.660
Like, you know, you can't – we don't really tolerate incompetence in each other.
00:07:10.360
And so I think that that's, you know, again, a function of, you know,
00:07:14.180
if we're in a serious situation, I need for you to be serious and take things seriously.
00:07:18.780
I mean, I know like even in – as a small example, you know, I've got some projects around the house
00:07:22.900
and I've got a lot of male friends who I could call but I've only got two or three who I actually
00:07:28.000
would call because they'd be useful in that situation to help me out.
00:07:33.000
As with any team, you know, you call different guys for different things.
00:07:37.160
I know the guy who I'm going to call to help me fix a car.
00:07:46.700
You know, it has a lot of cultural definitions and a lot of moral definitions, especially in
00:07:52.140
When I'm talking about honor, I'm talking about specifically something that ends up
00:07:57.400
Because if you can't show the group that you care what they think about you, if you
00:08:02.020
don't care about your reputation within a group, you know, why should they trust you?
00:08:06.020
You know, you're basically saying, by saying, I don't, and a lot of guys will say this today.
00:08:09.600
They're like, hey, I don't care what anybody, you know, anybody thinks about me, if they
00:08:13.600
Well, then they, then, you know, those guys shouldn't care about you because you're basically
00:08:20.340
You know, one of the things that I've heard in the past, and this was a great way to explain
00:08:23.800
it, is I was talking with someone about the way that we look, our appearance.
00:08:27.180
And what he said is he said, you honor those other people who you're around by the way
00:08:31.560
that you show up, by the way that you behave, by your style and your fashion.
00:08:35.980
You're actually honoring them and speaking to them in the way that you show up.
00:08:44.960
I mean, if, you know, the, I say kind of, I'm building my group, a tribe myself, you
00:08:50.900
know, one of the things I've said to guys is like, you know, what I, one of the, they're
00:08:56.080
And I'm like, well, I want a group of guys who I can be photographed with, you know, who
00:09:03.360
You know, I want a group of guys who look strong, who looked like they'd be something,
00:09:07.880
And, you know, so yeah, I think it, it has a lot to do with that.
00:09:11.380
You do honor the, the, the men you're around and show them respect by, you know, looking
00:09:16.000
a certain way or behaving in a certain way too.
00:09:18.760
And I think that that's why men get really bent out of shape when they feel like men
00:09:23.980
Cause it's kind of our, our gut instinct to kind of step away from the guy who's acting
00:09:28.840
weird, you know, uh, you know, whether that's, you know, he's like being really flamboyant
00:09:34.120
or, or, uh, um, ridiculous, uh, or just irresponsible.
00:09:38.340
You know, the guy, you don't want to be associated with that guy.
00:09:40.740
And I think that because, uh, as it, you're mentally thinking as if you're still part
00:09:44.800
of a group, you know, like if I'm, if I'm near that guy, they're going to think I'm
00:09:51.600
And you're, you're making our team look weak, dude.
00:09:54.400
Well, I want to talk more about all, uh, get into the four tactical virtues, but before
00:09:58.460
I do that, I want to skip back to something you said, which is defining and, and articulating
00:10:03.920
the difference between being a good man and being good at being a man.
00:10:08.120
So talk to me a little bit more about the differences between those two things.
00:10:12.360
Cause when you see it on the surface level, you could think that actually means the same
00:10:18.680
Um, when I'm talking about being good at being a man, I'm talking about, uh, those tactical
00:10:23.400
virtues because you can have a really bad guy, uh, you know, by any definition or just
00:10:32.980
Like, you know, your enemy can be really manly, but also not someone you'd want around.
00:10:38.560
Uh, you know, so, I mean, we, we tend to make everyone we don't like evil, uh, and, and
00:10:44.400
unmanly, you know, that's what that's, if you think about groups insulting each other,
00:10:51.220
Uh, you know, that, that group, you know, they're a bunch of, you know, whatever, you
00:10:54.400
know, I think it's important, uh, to separate the, those, uh, that morality.
00:10:58.280
And this, the basic virtues, you know, you can be strong and courageous and you can be
00:11:04.420
extremely competent and, you know, you can care about group people would in your group
00:11:08.860
I've used the controversial kind of example of, uh, uh, you know, uh, terrorist bombers.
00:11:20.280
Uh, you know, they are, and you know, it's takes a lot of courage to kill yourself in
00:11:26.160
public or, you know, I mean, that's, that's not something for the, you know, the weak to
00:11:32.660
And, and, uh, so you can, you can be all those things, not have the same morality as
00:11:39.980
I mean, you can use the extreme example, even of like Adolf Hitler.
00:11:43.100
I mean, there, there's a case to be made that he's a very strong, it was a very strong
00:11:49.860
And there's a lot of traits that he had that if they would have been used for good, it
00:11:55.200
So you're talking about intentions and morality versus the tactical virtues.
00:11:59.600
Like you said, Mussolini was a pretty manly guy, at least he wanted everyone to say he
00:12:03.520
was, you know, he ran around on the beach with his shirt off and, uh, that, you know,
00:12:08.600
tried to, tried to look, uh, heroic, you know, and the, another example was, is, uh, prisoners.
00:12:13.520
They broke the law of the land, you know, but there's a lot of guys in jail who are undeniably
00:12:19.280
In fact, they're probably some sociologists would say called hyper-masculine.
00:12:23.500
Um, all these traits that we're talking about, they're not afraid to take risks.
00:12:27.900
There's some strong guys in jail, you know, and they're, they're very, they're plugged
00:12:31.560
into an honor culture, gang members of the gangs are an honor culture.
00:12:35.460
And, uh, you know, they're, they're obviously good at something and it might be killing,
00:12:40.900
you know, but, uh, you might want them on your team and in a different society, you know?
00:12:45.760
So I think that, uh, making the distinction between what we think, you know, makes someone
00:12:50.680
a moral person, you know, it helps you to understand what masculinity really is and isn't.
00:12:55.700
So are you saying, so in certain situations, it really just is the four tactical virtues,
00:12:59.800
but I think most of modern society, you probably want not only the tactical virtues, but that
00:13:05.900
Any, any society is going to have its own morality.
00:13:07.840
Uh, you know, so it's any, any group has its own morality, uh, it's all in the rules
00:13:12.980
and, uh, you know, it just, you'd have to make distinction if you really want to understand
00:13:19.340
It's just really important to, to not get confused between two different groups rules
00:13:23.700
because then, then it, you know, then you become open to, you know, this preacher says
00:13:29.280
that being a man is, you know, sending him money every month.
00:13:31.740
And this, you know, this, this guy says blowing yourself up is, uh, is the manliest thing
00:13:36.640
And, and, uh, you know, I think that makes it really confusing for people who, uh, uh,
00:13:41.820
you know, are trying to understand what masculinity is and, and decide what kind of man they want
00:13:46.840
You talk a lot about, obviously with your book, the way of men, you talk about the way
00:13:53.080
And a lot of, especially in the beginning of the book, you talk a lot about how men with
00:13:57.900
the four tactical virtues were quote unquote, the man and the masculine, right.
00:14:03.860
And how has that changed from ancient civilization to modern society?
00:14:08.420
You know, one of the basic principles of evolutionary psychology is that, uh, we still do the things
00:14:13.500
that we were, we evolved to do, whether we like it or not, you know, it's part of who
00:14:19.900
So, I mean, I don't think masculinity has actually changed at all.
00:14:22.760
Uh, what the society needs for men at a given time does change.
00:14:30.160
We want to show other men that we're masculine.
00:14:31.880
We want to be not the guy who wouldn't get picked for the team.
00:14:35.380
Uh, you know, we want to show, we want to be respected by other men, but, uh, you know,
00:14:39.280
our society right now, uh, doesn't have a lot of need for those, uh, virtues.
00:14:44.360
Uh, you don't have to be any of those things to survive in our society right now.
00:14:48.240
But, uh, you know, it is important to, to think that, understand one, that's because
00:14:55.100
You know, there's only a few, we only need X number of, uh, policemen, firefighters, and
00:15:05.640
It's just that, you know, we need a lower percentage of them, uh, you know, because we
00:15:08.880
have these big governments and that's why I'm kind of a big fan of, of smaller, uh, governments
00:15:13.680
and smaller, uh, situations because I think it gives more, more men the opportunity to
00:15:17.700
do what they naturally want to do, uh, and channel it in a good way.
00:15:21.500
But, uh, it's changed in terms of the second thing that you have to remember when we talk
00:15:25.660
about, uh, how masculinity has changed is that nothing is permanent.
00:15:29.480
Uh, just because those skills aren't needed right now, it doesn't mean they will never
00:15:34.920
Uh, so, you know, if a disaster strikes your area, all of a sudden, you know, you're basically
00:15:39.720
depending on all those guys who have been, we've been outsourcing, uh, your
00:15:46.780
Because if you don't know how to do anything and you're weak and you're scared, you're
00:15:51.340
You are basically the same as the women and children and elderly.
00:15:55.400
You're just something, someone that needs to be taken care of.
00:15:58.040
So how does a guy develop some of those skills?
00:16:01.060
You know, you talk about protecting the perimeter.
00:16:03.900
How does a guy develop some of those skills that he may need to have in a situation like
00:16:08.220
that, that wouldn't normally be called for in his life?
00:16:10.900
Well, there are lots of ways in terms of regular, you know,
00:16:14.820
Um, I actually, uh, I actually did one of my own podcasts with a guy recently, uh, Greg
00:16:23.560
And, uh, so that's, uh, I mean, his argument is that, uh, you know, that's, that is the
00:16:28.980
modern tool to do the thing that you may have to do someday.
00:16:33.380
And, uh, so if you aren't competent with it, you know, he, he thinks it's one of the most,
00:16:37.460
uh, important things you can use under the, the mastery heading.
00:16:43.100
He feels like that, uh, every man should have, you know, and that goes to any kind of self-defense
00:16:47.800
skills, any kind of fighting skills, uh, you know, you can learn.
00:16:54.380
Um, and, uh, putting yourself in those situations actually kind of helps you build those tactical
00:16:59.140
virtues anyway, because, uh, you know, if you're in a situation, you're just sitting
00:17:02.360
home on your couch watching TV, you can fantasize that you're one day you're going to be the
00:17:08.540
And, uh, when it, when the time comes, you're going to stand up and do what's right.
00:17:12.640
But if you don't have any personal history of doing that, that's probably not the case.
00:17:19.000
It's not going to change in a situation like that.
00:17:21.260
You're not going to bounce into the room and suddenly know how to throw a punch and,
00:17:24.380
and, uh, uh, you know, and, and all of a sudden, you know, be, you know, some ninja PA, you
00:17:29.560
know, the silence, a bunch of attackers very quickly, you know, you're not going to be that
00:17:34.460
Uh, I mean, and that's the fantasy that I think Hollywood sells people is that, uh, you know,
00:17:39.500
you know, it's always, you know, so many movies where the, the, the little nerd guy suddenly
00:17:44.080
comes out and, you know, saves everyone from, uh, you know, he turns into this great
00:17:48.520
hero and, um, you know, but really those, uh, masculinity, like anything else, I mean,
00:17:53.940
you have, it's like intelligence, you can be really smart, but it requires some development.
00:17:59.540
You know, you can just, otherwise you're just this person that remembers things and, you
00:18:02.780
know, repeats them, uh, and, uh, you know, can do math or something.
00:18:06.480
But, uh, you know, I mean, obviously like math is a great example.
00:18:08.980
Like you don't, you have to learn that you have an aptitude for it.
00:18:13.080
And I think that, you know, masculinity is very much the same way.
00:18:15.620
I mean, we have a certain strength, but you have to train to be strong.
00:18:19.120
Uh, if you don't do anything physically, you're not going to be strong no matter how
00:18:24.560
And, uh, you know, in terms of courage, again, it's if you're not used to taking risks, you're
00:18:31.780
You know, I mean, it's, you know, it could happen, but you know, you know, so yeah, I mean,
00:18:35.460
anything that puts you in the situations where you can build those kinds of skills and those
00:18:39.220
virtues, uh, you know, making you more, uh, more useful man.
00:18:45.100
I mean, one of the things that I take as a small example of some of the races, you know,
00:18:48.680
I participate in some of these Spartan races, um, Ragnar relay races.
00:18:52.380
I mean, even those things to a degree, because you have all this physical training and you're
00:18:57.500
And so those things to me, yes, it's not direct training, but you can use and draw upon the
00:19:02.600
skills and the things that you've learned in that training to, uh,
00:19:05.440
get yourself out of, uh, maybe a tough situation or a situation that you don't want to be in.
00:19:10.900
I mean, at very least you're building endurance, right?
00:19:13.460
So I'm reading your book and I've, and I've gone through your stuff and I've, and I've
00:19:16.560
seen your blog and a lot of the stuff sounds like common sense, right?
00:19:19.840
I mean, because you're talking about the tactical virtues, but then I also see a lot of pushback,
00:19:24.640
you know, and I think there's some controversy about some of the things that you say,
00:19:27.380
what are some of the things that people are saying that's maybe pushback or they don't agree
00:19:35.440
You know, if you say anything, yeah, you're going to get some pushback and that's life.
00:19:39.640
I actually haven't gotten too much in that direction.
00:19:42.220
I mean, there's just people who are going to tap into the message and want to be better
00:19:47.720
And then there are people who, you know, their egos are threatened by that.
00:19:50.900
You know, they're like, you know, well, we don't, you know, especially, you know,
00:19:54.240
you have a guy who only does computers and that's all he cares about.
00:19:56.980
A thing with masculinity is that because we all kind of want to be masculine, uh, men try and
00:20:01.520
find a way that, to, to explain that the thing that they do is actually the most masculine
00:20:07.740
So, you know, it's always the philosopher or the engineer, uh, who wants to be like,
00:20:19.160
I teach people how to think, you know, therefore I'm manlier than you are.
00:20:22.820
Uh, and that's just a little game that men play.
00:20:25.120
But, uh, you know, I think that it is very threatening when you, when you look at those
00:20:29.520
skills and realize that you don't have any, I'm basically saying you're not very manly,
00:20:33.000
you know, and I'm not saying that I'm the manliest man in the world.
00:20:38.000
I, you know, people always kind of assume that.
00:20:39.800
And, uh, I'm a pretty average guy with pretty average, like natural capacities and all those
00:20:47.060
Um, I mean, I'm, don't consider myself the exemplar that you're supposed to be.
00:20:51.480
In fact, I'm kind of lucky with this book is that I have readers that are so much better
00:20:56.100
than me at everything, but they, they, they recognize that, you know, what I'm saying is
00:21:01.960
something that they've always thought, but have never articulated.
00:21:05.380
And your ability to be able to define that and help guys on the path, I think is
00:21:11.620
I'm not an expert at being a man, but I'm, but there's some things that have worked well
00:21:15.360
for me and there's some things that haven't worked well for me.
00:21:17.460
And if I can share those and be a catalyst to help other guys, then I'm going to do it.
00:21:25.580
And, you know, it is really gratifying kind of look at the people who are, who have negative
00:21:30.960
And I'm like, man, I don't want to be that guy, you know, but I have guys write me all the
00:21:37.320
I mean, he, he, uh, read my book and he's used to be, uh, what special forces.
00:21:48.340
I, you know, I have four or five guys who are regularly on my Facebook who are ex-special
00:21:51.460
forces and a lot of martial arts instructors and all that.
00:21:54.780
So I'm like, if these guys are agreeing with what I'm saying, I'm happy with that.
00:22:00.000
I don't mean if I, you know, I don't need to necessarily be on a CNN and I need to go on the view
00:22:04.940
and hear what the ladies have to say, uh, I'm much more interested in the guys who I
00:22:09.360
want to be more like and what they have to say.
00:22:11.960
Well, let's jump back to the tactical virtues because I think when I'm looking at them, we
00:22:14.900
see strength and we see courage, mastery, and honor.
00:22:17.620
And I think with mastery and strength, it's pretty self-explanatory.
00:22:21.440
And I think a lot of guys just know, Hey, I can develop these things.
00:22:24.680
I've got to go work out or maybe there's a new skill, whether it's firearms training or
00:22:29.800
And so you go do those things, but how do you develop these other virtues, courage and
00:22:37.860
And what are some of the exercises that guys could do?
00:22:40.680
Well, with honor, you just kind of, you have to want to, you have to want to care about
00:22:44.640
other, uh, you know, decide that, I mean, that's kind of the first step actually what,
00:22:49.360
you know, what you said there is, uh, you know, if they decide they want to be more masculine
00:22:53.640
and you know, that, that is honor, you know, if they want to decide they want to be a
00:22:57.800
better man and be viewed as being, you know, better at being a man that is on.
00:23:03.060
Um, so that is, you know, caring about that is, is what honor is.
00:23:05.860
And then, you know, in terms of developing, uh, loyalty, I think that's again, a personal
00:23:11.980
Uh, you know how you have to say, this is the kind of man I want to be, and this is how
00:23:17.000
And, uh, this is the kind of group that I'd want to be in and, uh, behave accordingly.
00:23:22.540
And holding yourself to that rule because, you know, everybody in society today wants
00:23:26.360
to, uh, excuse you, you know, or come up with a reason why you're a victim and you
00:23:31.980
You know, honor is making the choice not to be that guy.
00:23:34.200
And, uh, you know, when it comes to courage, um, I mean, that's why you can put yourself
00:23:39.320
Uh, you know, we live in a very protected society.
00:23:41.960
Uh, so in most of those risk situations, you're probably not going to die.
00:23:47.180
When I first started sparring last year, you know, and I've only done a little bit of it,
00:23:50.380
but when you first start sparring, it's like the reality of like, someone's going to come
00:23:54.240
and try and knock you out, you know, is something, the more times you deal with that, the more,
00:23:59.600
you know, courageous you're going to be in that situation.
00:24:02.180
Um, you know, more times you process that fear and get past it.
00:24:05.340
There's same things a guy was talking to the other day said, uh, you know, a lot of people,
00:24:08.940
a lot of military organizations use like things like rock climbing, something where you're
00:24:12.300
going to deal with a middling amount of fear, but you're probably not going to die.
00:24:16.240
So, you know, developing courage, I think is from putting yourself in those kinds of
00:24:21.740
And yeah, just seeing those, being exposed to those over and over again, right?
00:24:26.760
Well, and so you talk a lot about with honor, how being around the right people, I think is
00:24:32.820
And so you've talked about quote unquote, starting a gang.
00:24:35.300
So in your book, so tell me a little bit about that and how a guy would go about doing
00:24:38.920
that, because I think it's important that you surround yourself with the kind of guys
00:24:46.200
And I think that, you know, I couldn't have phrased it any better.
00:24:48.320
Um, you know, that, that I think, uh, people always ask, you know, how can I be more manly?
00:24:52.680
And I'm like, well, surround yourself with men who are better than you at things.
00:24:56.140
Uh, you know, they'll, they'll hold you accountable, but, uh, actually forming a group of men is
00:25:00.620
a phenomenally difficult task in this day and age.
00:25:03.220
Uh, getting adult men to do anything on a regular basis is really, really hard.
00:25:12.520
Well, our society doesn't really make, uh, make room for it, uh, to a certain extent.
00:25:16.660
I mean, in, in other, you know, societies, it was always there.
00:25:19.920
Men had, you know, men went and did this kind of work and they were usually together.
00:25:25.540
They didn't have to, they didn't have to organize it.
00:25:28.540
Whereas like, uh, you know, most, most guys, they'll go to, you know, a completely mixed
00:25:32.500
You know, they have time at home, either alone or with their spouses or whatever.
00:25:35.600
And, uh, you know, they have to schedule time to hang out with friends.
00:25:43.760
And the thing is when you build building friendships with men, it takes a lot of time.
00:25:50.280
You know, it's not, let's get together and share our feelings.
00:25:58.800
Lionel tiger was actually one of the first people to talk about the minute concept of male
00:26:04.780
And, uh, one thing that he has always talked about is that, uh, you know, you have to be
00:26:12.340
And it doesn't mean that you have to be killing somebody.
00:26:15.000
It does, but it does mean you have to be facing a challenge together.
00:26:18.760
You know, so anytime you have a bunch of guys who are going to do a challenge and that's
00:26:21.520
why I think men really like, you know, team sports and, uh, you know, it's kind of,
00:26:26.120
you know, they feel good about that, that, that dynamic.
00:26:29.380
Um, so, I mean, that, that's an area where you can build those kinds of friends.
00:26:32.160
I mean, it's not kind of my thing, but, uh, you know, you can, that's one of the easiest,
00:26:36.000
most socially acceptable ways to join a rugby team or something.
00:26:39.060
So Jack, tell me, uh, tell me what's next for you.
00:26:43.340
What can we expect coming down the pike from you?
00:26:45.860
Uh, well, I'm trying to wrap up a book, uh, right now, uh, called becoming barbarians.
00:26:50.360
And, uh, basically kind of has to do with the, uh, idea of how you, uh, transform from
00:26:56.480
someone who thinks of themselves as part of, part of, uh, this society to, to somebody
00:27:01.000
who's, you know, starting something new and, uh, thinking, thinking more tribally.
00:27:04.840
Actually, I'm giving a speech, uh, in Washington, DC pretty soon about the tribal mind and kind
00:27:10.380
of adopting a more tribal mindset as opposed to like a morally universal mindset.
00:27:16.280
And also, uh, I, I actually formed a t-shirt company the other day.
00:27:19.480
I think I'm going to have fun and make, uh, make a lot of cool, uh, stuff this next year.
00:27:25.340
Uh, so that's kind of, that's kind of my big project right now that I'm really excited
00:27:30.860
Is that something we can check out right now or is that still in the works?
00:27:34.400
It is actually called a brutal company LLC, but, uh, I'm not putting anything out until,
00:27:41.640
Uh, I just had such good luck with, uh, my essay violence is golden and, uh, uh, uh, selling
00:27:47.160
these violence is golden patches that I couldn't keep in stock really that, uh, yeah, yeah.
00:27:51.400
So I just, uh, I had a lot of luck with that and had a lot of fun with it.
00:27:56.080
So, I mean, thank, there's probably a violence is golden t-shirt in the, in the works and,
00:27:59.640
uh, uh, a bunch of things, uh, related to my work, uh, that, uh, I can put out there.
00:28:05.480
Just be sure to keep us in the loop so we can get that information out there as well.
00:28:09.480
So the next question I want to ask is something that I ask all of our guests and I prepared you
00:28:14.620
And this is something that you study obviously.
00:28:18.700
And that question is, what does it mean to be a man?
00:28:22.860
Well, geez, uh, to, to be a man, you know, it's basically, I mean, obviously I think of,
00:28:29.120
uh, masculinity as it's, as part of these concepts that I've talked about, you know, the strength,
00:28:36.880
And so to be a man to me, I mean, I think is to work constantly to embody those characteristics.
00:28:42.780
People always, I love the term insecure and what's secure.
00:28:46.940
And, and, uh, cause to me, I don't think that means a lot.
00:28:49.400
Cause I think we should always be working, not resting on our laurels and, uh, always
00:28:54.060
be working to be stronger and more courageous and, uh, and to better ourselves.
00:28:58.380
I don't value the kind of people who have stopped, you know, people who have stopped.
00:29:03.840
So to me, being a man is being, you know, always better than you were before trying to
00:29:11.160
No one is the ultimate embodiment of masculinity.
00:29:14.360
Of course, you know, so it's, it's this aspirational ideal.
00:29:18.840
So to be a man is to, uh, I think Mishima said something to that effect, uh, to be a
00:29:23.820
man is to strive forever through this mountain peak.
00:29:26.580
I mean, that's, that's what it really means to me.
00:29:38.560
You've got to talk the end in DC, the end of this month, you've got a ton going on.
00:29:42.080
Um, so I appreciate you being on the show, but I wanted to ask you if, if the guys that
00:29:46.260
are listening to this resonate with your message and what you have to say, or they want to find
00:29:49.700
out about your book, the way of men, which I've read, and it's a great book.
00:29:54.140
Uh, or any of your new books or anything else coming out, how do we connect with you?
00:29:58.980
Oh, well, these way, um, I just redid my website.
00:30:07.440
Uh, but, uh, yeah, Jack dash Donovan.com and, uh, you know, on there.
00:30:12.080
And on YouTube, there's actually a really short video, uh, my kind of introduction to
00:30:18.940
There's also a free, uh, ebook that I wrote some years ago about, uh, masculinity and feminism
00:30:24.160
and kind of this conversation that's been happening about, uh, uh, the decline of men.
00:30:30.420
So that's just something that you could read for free.
00:30:32.640
Uh, so, uh, yeah, I mean, that's, and I actually just deleted my Twitter last night, so I'm
00:30:38.220
not doing that anymore, but I really like Instagram.
00:30:40.580
So, uh, that's, uh, uh, I'm on Instagram at start the world.
00:30:44.380
Well, we'll make sure we make, uh, all those connections on the show notes page.
00:30:47.700
So the guys that are listening can connect with you again, Jack, I really appreciate
00:30:50.700
you taking the time and being on the show today.
00:30:55.140
Jack Donovan, you are now walking away with the four tactical virtues.
00:30:58.780
All men need to strive to improve and an understanding of the difference between masculinity and
00:31:04.520
morality and why that's so important for us as men to understand.
00:31:07.260
Now, again, if you've enjoyed the show, if you learned anything new, if you want to say
00:31:10.880
thank you, please, please, please leave us your iTunes review.
00:31:15.180
You can do that at order of men.com slash iTunes and leave that rating review.
00:31:19.080
And remember our Facebook group, if you haven't checked that out and our order of man t-shirts,
00:31:23.260
which can be found at order of men.com slash shirts.
00:31:26.220
I'd love to see all of you guys wearing those shirts.
00:31:29.600
Now, next week, we're going to be talking with a friend of mine who runs a company that
00:31:32.140
helps men transition from youth to becoming a man.
00:31:35.120
If you've ever seen the movie failure to launch, you'll have an idea of what it is that this
00:31:40.020
We're going to be talking about why men struggle to make it to manhood and what can be done about
00:31:44.740
Guys, I look forward to talking to you next week, but until then take action and become the
00:31:49.840
Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.
00:31:53.920
You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.
00:31:57.940
We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.