Order of Man - OoM 034： Jordan Harbinger ｜ The Power of Coaching, Networking and Building Relationships

00:00:00.000 Today I talk with a man who needs no introduction, Mr. Jordan Harbinger, with the art of charm.

00:00:04.460 We talk about the power of finding coaches in your life to develop new skills,

00:00:07.600 how to be a better networker, and why building relationships is the most valuable skill set

00:00:11.900 you need to learn. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears

00:00:17.300 and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every

00:00:23.080 time. You are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient. Strong. This is your life.

00:00:30.000 This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and

00:00:35.480 done, you can call yourself a man. Welcome to the Order of Man podcast, guys. My name is Ryan

00:00:41.620 Michler. I am the host and the founder of Order of Man. Glad that you're here with us today. Now,

00:00:46.760 I was re-listening to this show with Jordan Harbinger, and I knew, I knew it was good when

00:00:50.820 we recorded it, but going through it again, this might be just one of my favorite episodes to date.

00:00:56.320 Jordan and I have a real conversation. No punches pulled about why finding coaches in your life is

00:01:02.280 so powerful, how you can be a better networker, and why, as Jordan puts it, developing relationships

00:01:07.980 is by far the most valuable skill set every successful person has. I'm going to leave you

00:01:13.860 hanging on that for just a minute, though, while I give a big shout out to BB1 Shoff. He had this to

00:01:19.300 say about the show. This is the best podcast out there. The information is current and diverse.

00:01:24.420 Ryan's personality in discussing topics is entertaining as well. Well done. Thanks again

00:01:28.760 for that iTunes review, BB1 Shoff. If you still haven't left your review, please head over to

00:01:34.100 orderofman.com slash iTunes and leave your review, and we will do everything that we can to feature it

00:01:38.600 on a future episode. And then also, a quick reminder of the community we're building in our

00:01:42.340 Facebook group. We broke 1,000 members last week. I told you we would, and we actually did that.

00:01:47.160 In fact, I think we're closer right now to 1,100 members. Last week on the group, we talked about

00:01:52.500 how to deal with bullying, how to help a family member who's an addict, and how you can improve

00:01:56.340 your journey of becoming the best man you can be. So please join us over there if you're interested.

00:02:00.020 Head to facebook.com slash groups slash orderofman, and I hope to see you there. Now, all the show

00:02:06.400 notes, the links, the quotes, you can find all of those at orderofman.com slash 034. Now, let me

00:02:11.940 introduce you to our guest, Jordan Harbinger. He's always had an affinity for what he calls social

00:02:16.840 influence, interpersonal dynamics, and social engineering. In fact, he's been helping private companies

00:02:21.720 test the security of their communication systems and working with law enforcement agencies before

00:02:26.660 he was even old enough to drive. He spent several years abroad. He speaks several languages. He's

00:02:31.460 worked for various governments and non-governmental agencies overseas. He's traveled through war

00:02:35.340 zones. He's actually been kidnapped twice, and he'll be the first to tell you that the only reason

00:02:40.040 he's alive and kicking is because his ability to talk his way into and out of just about any situation.

00:02:46.040 And we're going to put those skills to the test today. Jordan, thanks for joining us,

00:02:49.260 man. I'm glad to have you on the show today. Hey, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

00:02:52.280 So my first question is, tell me a little bit about what some of the topics you cover,

00:02:56.920 because I think there's sometimes a big disconnect between where you guys started with

00:03:00.900 solely relationship and dating advice to covering the, you know, the broad spectrum of what you guys

00:03:05.680 do now. So I want to know what you guys cover when it comes to Art of Charm and what you guys are

00:03:09.080 doing. Sure. We cover everything from networking for business to relationship development

00:03:14.600 to dating relationships, basically anything that will make you better as a person.

00:03:22.420 We're into it. The only exceptions we have are kind of fitness. I like biohacking, but I stay away from

00:03:27.600 fitness because the stuff that works, it changes here and there, but I'm not an expert enough to

00:03:34.320 decide, separate fact from fiction. And frankly, the stuff that really is the hardcore science-based

00:03:40.960 stuff and not just trendy BS or pseudoscience is kind of boring.

00:03:45.680 There's so much to it, so much that you've got to actually delve into, right?

00:03:48.800 Yeah. So I tend to stick with the lesser known stuff. You can talk to a personal trainer that

00:03:52.940 has clients and get fitness advice. But when you ask people how to create rapport with other people,

00:03:58.560 you're going to get a load of crap. So we focus on separating that and teaching those skills,

00:04:04.380 because that's really, that's really rare.

00:04:07.620 So how does a guy do that? Because I know there's, I mean, we talked about it earlier before we

00:04:12.160 actually started, you know, the, the formal quote unquote, formal recording, I guess, of this podcast. 0.90

00:04:17.280 There's so much information out there and there's a lot of good stuff, but there's a lot of crap as 0.89

00:04:21.140 well. And so how does a guy decipher when it comes to, for example, relationship advice,

00:04:26.160 decipher what he should actually be listening to and what he should probably avoid?

00:04:29.740 Yeah. I mean, whenever there's a lot of folks that like, especially these dumb pickup artist guys, 0.98

00:04:34.500 and I, and I'm just going to just go out, I'm not going to try to hide my feelings. 0.76

00:04:39.380 Those guys will be like, you know, why don't we debate on this? And I'm like, nah,

00:04:43.560 why don't you just try what we talk about on the show? And when you get results, then come back,

00:04:48.840 you know, then you figure out that we're not full of crap. We're not going to like sell you 0.95

00:04:52.980 some system that's top secret, blah, blah, blah. Like the information should be free.

00:04:58.400 And so that's kind of one reason why we, and I say this in air quotes, don't have any competition

00:05:04.680 because all of the other people who are selling the information that we're giving away for free

00:05:09.920 are doing it in a very, they're doing it discreetly, right? They're like, here's a book

00:05:14.560 about networking and relationship. Here's a book about dating. Here's a book.

00:05:18.240 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, that's all fine and dandy, but when you can get it for free and try

00:05:22.640 it for yourself, if you want coaching on this, you can buy that from us. If you want feedback from

00:05:27.460 coaches, you can pay for that, but the information we're giving away for free. So we sort of

00:05:31.940 end run these froofy internet marketer type guys that are just selling a lot of snake oil that's

00:05:38.440 supposed to be secret. And, uh, we've really can work around that. So you don't have to believe me

00:05:44.340 that this stuff works. Just invest a little bit of your time, try stuff for yourself and you'll see

00:05:48.660 that it does. Well, so I had a cool conversation earlier in the year with your business partner,

00:05:53.740 AJ about this, because I was asking about some of the live programs you do.

00:05:58.000 And I was blown away because he talked a lot about, Hey, we just put ourselves

00:06:01.680 right in the situation. And sometimes we fail, but for the most part, we're learning by actually

00:06:06.460 doing rather than reading. So tell me a little bit about that.

00:06:09.360 About learning from doing rather than reading.

00:06:11.760 Yeah. Even what you're doing with some of your programs.

00:06:13.880 Yeah. I mean, you can read all you want, but I don't do you ride a motorcycle or anything?

00:06:19.240 Not me personally. No.

00:06:20.480 Well, somebody out there does. And I think we can all imagine what it would be like to ride

00:06:24.120 a motorcycle. I would not want to learn that from a book.

00:06:28.500 Great point.

00:06:29.120 And you can probably learn a ton about motorcycles from a book, but you want the one thing you

00:06:35.280 cannot learn is how to ride it. And that's what we're talking about here. We're talking

00:06:40.300 about physical and logical slash emotional skill sets. And so I, I love reading. I think

00:06:47.520 people should do more of it. I should do more of it. Hell, you know, but you can only get

00:06:51.680 so much learning on your own and reading on your own and you can do a lot of trial and

00:06:56.920 error even on your own without coaching, but you're going to spend a lot longer doing it

00:07:01.460 and you probably will learn a ton of bad habits that you later have to unlearn. And a lot of

00:07:06.660 guys, their ego hurts when they learn about relationships, especially if they're coming 1.00

00:07:10.780 in for dating stuff, they, their ego really hurts and they don't want to admit to themselves

00:07:15.160 that they need what we got. And so what ends up happening is they all, I'll inevitably get an

00:07:21.640 email. Like I'm going to see how far I can get on my own. And I'm thinking, okay, I'll go ahead

00:07:25.660 because for me, I know where my weaknesses are. And even if I don't, I always get coaching for new

00:07:32.680 skills because you are, you're a sponge. If you don't know anything about what you're learning.

00:07:37.840 Right. So I, for example, I'm going to get into things like rock climbing and we, you and I were

00:07:42.000 just talking about a shooting. And if I do that, I'm not just going to buy a gun and go to the range

00:07:47.780 and aim at the middle, right? I want to take a class from an instructor because I don't want to

00:07:52.700 learn bad habits that people get by following their gut. When it comes to that stuff, I want to

00:07:57.540 learn the right way to do it. Same thing goes for golfs. I mean, if, if you, if you tell somebody

00:08:03.200 who's never held a club to hit a golf ball, they can probably hit it, but they're not going to do it

00:08:07.440 the way they're supposed to do it to later on build on that same skillset and really nail

00:08:11.980 it and be accurate. Right. So coaching is key in the people that don't seem to want to get it.

00:08:18.620 Generally, it's an ego issue. Right. Yeah. I was going to ask if that's what it was,

00:08:22.580 even maybe even a, is it, is it cheap, you know, being cheap, I don't want to fork out the money,

00:08:26.440 right? That too. That's usually an excuse based on an improper calculation of value. So there's a lot

00:08:33.460 of people that say, Oh, I can totally learn this on my own. And that comes from a profound lack of

00:08:39.320 understanding of what they're actually trying to achieve or what they're trying to learn.

00:08:43.240 Because if you knew the work that was involved in developing pretty much any skillset to mastery,

00:08:49.440 it's a tremendous amount of work. And so there's nobody that achieves greatness that doesn't take

00:08:56.400 a lifetime and doesn't have any mentors. Even people that are like epic, amazing, self-taught folks,

00:09:03.380 they still get influence from other people. And generally the reason we know about those Picasso

00:09:08.820 types are because they're famous because of what they've done. I'm sorry, but you are not the Picasso

00:09:15.400 of golf. You're not the Picasso of shooting and Picasso of rock climbing. So take a class. The thing

00:09:20.480 is, I know I'm not that guy either. So I will always get coaching for literally everything that I can.

00:09:26.380 And I get coaching for things I'm already good at. I get coaching for things I'm already great at

00:09:30.960 because I want to see if there's anything I can learn. So the idea of, I'm just going to figure

00:09:35.260 it out for myself is just such a strictly male ego issue. The email we get from women is like, 0.84

00:09:41.780 oh my God, I totally want to learn this. When can I start? And the email we get from guys is,

00:09:46.040 oh, you know, this is great and all, but I'm just going to practice for a while and see how far I get,

00:09:50.240 dabble in it, and then fart around. And then in three years, I get an email that's like,

00:09:54.820 oh my God, I wish I'd learned this years ago. And it's all I can do just not to backhand them,

00:09:59.000 but they need compassion right at that point. So.

00:10:01.580 So how do men calculate the value of, you know, you talk about their misunderstanding the value

00:10:08.460 created. How do they calculate that and know what's worth investing in and maybe something

00:10:12.000 that's not worth investing in? Yeah. A lot of it comes from maturity. So for example,

00:10:16.280 one of the reasons that guys come to the art of charm, for example, is they, they realize that

00:10:21.280 relationships drive everything without exception. So they're at work and they're like, I'm just going

00:10:27.300 to work hard and be the best X, Y, Z that I can be. I'm an engineer, right? I don't need this.

00:10:32.260 And I'll, I'll even get emails like that. Like, oh, I'm an engineer and you know, it's primarily

00:10:36.280 merit-based where I work or I'm in the military. I don't need that. And that's just a huge misconception.

00:10:42.940 What that shows me is that they're completely oblivious to the secret game being played around

00:10:48.300 them. And inevitably at some point later on, I don't know if they write this in an email,

00:10:53.480 but usually they figure it out two, three, five, 10 years after that is they go, oh my gosh, all

00:10:59.000 these people that started work after me got promoted. Are they more talented than me? Not

00:11:03.860 really. And then it usually bitterness sets in and they go, oh, well, it's all about who, you know,

00:11:10.440 this politics, yeah, it's corrupt here. I'm going to switch companies, you know, or, or they hit a

00:11:16.860 recession and they get laid off and they're like, how come Tucker got to stay there? And Jordan got to

00:11:21.780 stay there. And Ryan got to stay. I'm smarter than those jerk faces. And then life's unfair and

00:11:26.660 they cry into their beer at the bar while they're on employment. So the deal is you can either bury

00:11:33.260 your head in the sand and pretend you don't need the skillset or you can realize, look, this, it is

00:11:39.300 all about who, you know, and it's not a disadvantage. You just need to get your ass off the couch and 0.99

00:11:43.500 train yourself and get that skillset to make those relationships because that is what drives 0.99

00:11:49.620 business. People sell, people buy and sell things from and to one another and they pick people that

00:11:55.220 they like. You know, they don't, if you're not spending your own money, you're not competing on

00:11:59.520 price, right? You're the person that you like and trust. And smart people realize this and young people

00:12:06.200 often fail to get this because they've been in situations where it's apparent that merit is working

00:12:13.000 for them. They worked hard in school, so they got into a good college. They worked hard in college, so they

00:12:17.400 got the interview and a job at a certain place. But that's becoming even more difficult now. I mean,

00:12:23.460 I got my job on Wall Street through a connection and a lot of people who probably had better grades

00:12:27.920 and bigger smarts than me, they didn't get that job and they probably just complained about it and 0.99

00:12:32.460 said, oh, old boys network, sons of bitches. It's not right, you know. And so if you observe enough 1.00

00:12:38.800 of that, you then either you take one of two roads, you get really bitter about it, which we just

00:12:43.240 talked about, or you go, okay, it's time to face reality. I need to learn these skills. And it's never

00:12:50.200 too late, but I'll tell you, we get guys coming through the program that are 67, 68 years old and they

00:12:56.620 realize, wow, I needed this 50 years ago. We get guys coming through that are 27 years old and they go,

00:13:02.660 damn, I wish I'd had this in high school. So it sort of depends on how clued in you are on this being of 0.88

00:13:10.640 value. And for some people, they stumble on the podcast and they listen and they find they need

00:13:15.320 it. It's always very interesting to me to highlight the need for this. And the way that I did it with

00:13:22.420 the military was I kept getting a lot of military guys writing in and going, look, I love AOC. I'm

00:13:28.980 totally going to take this program when I get out of the service, but I don't need it if I go career

00:13:33.480 military because it's merit-based. So what I did is I found a high ranking Lieutenant Colonel in the

00:13:39.420 Air Force and he came through the art of charm. And I said, can you talk about why AOC, is AOC

00:13:46.280 something you can apply to the military? And he goes, oh my God, yeah, it's all about relationships.

00:13:49.800 And I was like, okay, we need to explore this because at the low levels of not just the military,

00:13:55.340 but at the low levels of almost every organization that I've observed, the junior people at those low

00:14:02.640 levels, they look at it and go, it's merit-based. And the people on the upper levels go, it is

00:14:07.460 absolutely 100% not merit-based at all. Interesting. Right. Yeah. And because you see the reality and you

00:14:15.280 see how the sausage is made from the top, but from the bottom, sure, there, no one's going to say,

00:14:20.160 look, succeeding in this company is not going to be about hard work. It's not going to be about

00:14:24.000 innovation. It's not showing up on time. It's going to be about whether or not we like and trust you

00:14:30.160 with certain things in the company. Everything else is flexible if we like you. No company has

00:14:35.600 ever led that way. However, the reality is always the difference. It's always that way.

00:14:41.800 It's interesting. When I started Ordered Men, which is about six months ago, a little over six

00:14:45.480 months ago, I had no platform, no group of guys to go to starting from scratch. And I had no idea what

00:14:52.260 to do. And the very first thing I did is I jumped online and I said, where are the guys that already

00:14:56.680 know how to do this collaborating? And so I went to that men's style con, which your business partner

00:15:00.760 went out to, and that's where I met him. And the amount of collaboration and the relationships I

00:15:05.080 built there is really what I credit the success in the launch of Order of Man 2. So I totally agree.

00:15:10.800 It's all about relationships. Yeah. I mean, anybody who doesn't agree with that,

00:15:16.360 I totally understand because I used to be the same way. I was just faced with a very stark reality

00:15:22.900 and I saw it firsthand working on Wall Street. And then I looked back at pretty much everything

00:15:27.720 that has happened in my life and went, okay, would having a relationship helped at this stage? And

00:15:34.320 it's, it's just so readily apparent. And then now that I'm in the position where I'm at talking with

00:15:40.040 successful people, I can look at the influence that relationship and impact that relationships have

00:15:45.060 on their life. And it's just, it's by far the most valuable skillset that every successful person has

00:15:51.180 is always, always relationships, pretty much bar none. And the exceptions are usually famous people,

00:15:58.220 right? Like somebody might go, Mark Zuckerberg didn't build Facebook based on connections. He

00:16:03.380 just blah, blah, blah, did this and it took off. And I'm like, cool. You, you're willing to bet your

00:16:07.100 entire livelihood on that strategy. Yeah. Right. That's the exception, right? Of course.

00:16:11.180 The reason is because it's such an anomaly that it sticks out, right? Nobody. And, and now I bet

00:16:17.460 you is one of the most well-connected people on the planet. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. I mean,

00:16:21.640 it's relationships after the fact. So I know this is probably not even necessarily a fair question

00:16:26.160 to ask because it could be different, but I'm sure the principles are the same. If a guy's looking

00:16:30.000 to build relationships, whether it's business relationships and contacts or building relationships

00:16:34.520 and developing relationships with women or buddies, whatever it may be, what are some steps that

00:16:38.860 guys need to be looking at to develop those things, to get better at those things?

00:16:42.620 Yeah. I mean, it's all about emotional intelligence. And unfortunately you're right. It,

00:16:46.640 it comes down to learning and honing the skill of emotional intelligence. And, and I hate saying

00:16:53.660 this because it sounds like I'm trying to frigging upsell, but it's what we teach at bootcamp. And

00:16:57.780 you're right. The reason is it's totally different for everybody. Somebody who's married and 45 years

00:17:02.680 old with two kids is going to have an entirely different set of sticking points, needs, goals,

00:17:08.660 skills required that are going to take them to, to get that, to create that situational confidence,

00:17:15.080 that general confidence, get people to like, and trust them, be able to lead, et cetera.

00:17:19.140 It's not like, here's five quick tips for being more confident.

00:17:23.300 It's not a, like a list for a blog post, right?

00:17:25.980 This isn't Buzzfeed. So I'm not going to like jerk people around and tell them like,

00:17:30.700 oh, well there's these five tricks. There's tons of drills and exercises you can do to hone a skill,

00:17:35.700 but nothing we teach is a secret. It's just about hard work and you need feedback from somebody who

00:17:40.800 knows what they are doing. Otherwise you're just going to, you know, I'm putting myself out there

00:17:46.260 and I'm going out every night and nothing's working. And it's like, okay, well I can't

00:17:50.360 diagnose that. Right. And it's like calling a doctor and going, my stomach hurts. And I go,

00:17:54.560 oh, it's definitely cancer. Totally. It's definitely, you totally have cancer. You probably have three

00:17:58.880 weeks to live. Nobody would ever do that. Right. Um, they're going to make you come in and run tests.

00:18:04.080 And that's what we have to do as well.

00:18:05.500 Yeah. So you bring up a good point. Then you talk about what you, what you teach and some of

00:18:09.940 the things that you go through is not a secret. And I don't think there's a lot of new information

00:18:13.460 out there, right? Like for the most part, men know what it is they need to do when they want to get

00:18:18.060 fit. They got to exercise, they got to eat better when they want to meet people. They got to go where

00:18:21.560 people are. If they want a increase in pay or an advancement at the, at their work, they need to

00:18:27.740 have a skill that warrants that. Right. So it's not new information, but what's the gap between what

00:18:32.260 guys know and then what they actually do, because not all of us are successful.

00:18:36.460 Yeah. I mean, most people fail to take action and stick with that course of action. And a lot of us

00:18:43.020 that do take action and stick with a course of action, oftentimes it's the wrong course. I mean,

00:18:47.820 I stuck with academics and studying and worked my butt off and went to a top law school and then went, 0.99

00:18:53.140 geez, this sucks. Why did I do that? Right. And a lot of people do that as well, not just with 0.63

00:18:57.840 academia, but they stay in jobs and things like that. And then of course that's a skill

00:19:02.040 set that, or a character trait, you know, tenacity, great work ethic that will take most people

00:19:08.960 far. It's just that it, which direction are you going? And there's a lot of other folks

00:19:14.320 that don't apply that because they don't feel that sense of purpose. And so there's always

00:19:19.840 going to be a huge gap between knowledge and action. And there's always a huge gap between

00:19:23.600 knowledge and action, even at the level of the high performer. I mean, don't you think

00:19:27.780 I know I need to read more? Don't you think I know my diet this way? Don't you think I

00:19:32.200 know I need to X, Y, Z, but am I doing all of it? No, but I don't think anybody would argue

00:19:36.580 that just because I don't do X, Y, Z, I'm not a high performer, right? The results speak

00:19:41.540 for themselves. And every high performer has that. It's almost like a syndrome. I bet if you

00:19:45.720 talk to guys like Gary Vaynerchuk, who probably don't even sleep, they're like, yeah, well,

00:19:49.940 I need to work on this and I need to work on that. And I think there's a, you know,

00:19:55.160 you could probably talk to Richard Branson and he'd be like, I could probably do a little bit

00:19:58.300 better at X, Y, and Z. You know, it's going to be that shortfall. The trick is not to not have a

00:20:03.320 gap between knowledge and action. The trick is to be doing the right amount of action to keep moving

00:20:09.420 forward at a speed that makes you comfortable and to occasionally push that comfort zone so that

00:20:14.280 you're not always comfortable.

00:20:15.900 So is there a point though, when you're taking a course of action that you probably ought to consider

00:20:21.300 throwing in the towel? And if it is, when do you know that? Do I keep going? Do I have tenacity?

00:20:25.820 Do I keep punching through and driving through and hope something will work out? Or do you say,

00:20:29.760 hey, I'm done with this. I throw up my hands and I'm trying a different course of action. When,

00:20:32.820 when do you know that?

00:20:33.480 Yeah. I mean, for me, it's, it's a really tough question to answer because I've, and I've asked a

00:20:38.000 similar question of people that are really smart, like Seth Godin and Damon Shark Tank, and I'll be

00:20:43.980 totally blunt. Their answers were total crap as well. And the reason is because there's not a 0.99

00:20:49.300 good answer to this question, right? There's, there just is not one. I've never seen one in

00:20:54.360 my life. And the reason is because looking at my business, like Art of Charm, I did it because I

00:20:59.940 liked it. It didn't make money for years. Now it makes a crap load. And I'm saying not to brag,

00:21:05.180 but just to say like, look, we're successful. It's a real thing. And you know, it is more money than I

00:21:10.980 ever thought that I would ever make as a grownup or as a human, right? I mean, it's great and super

00:21:16.420 rewarding. And I still love it just as much, if not more than I did before. But if I was just

00:21:21.400 looking at return on investment and are we going the right way and bubble, I would have quit a long

00:21:25.320 time ago. So there's that element of, of not giving a rat's ass, whether or not it's successful 0.94

00:21:30.220 and doing it for the sake of doing it now. So they're looking back 2020 hindsight. There are many 0.96

00:21:36.500 points at which I, that what we were doing was not working and throw it out the baby with the

00:21:42.040 bathwater. So I don't think that, I don't think it's, is there a time to quit doing something that

00:21:47.800 I could possibly answer? But I think there is a time to realize, okay, this is not working. Let's

00:21:53.560 move over an inch instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Does that make sense?

00:21:58.480 Oh, for sure. So let's take you, for example, with your business and Art of Charm, is it,

00:22:02.300 was it a, a gut instinct? Was it, Hey, I'm looking at these numbers and this is working

00:22:07.320 and this isn't like what's determining that factor to make those adjustments for you and

00:22:12.120 your business? Yes to both. Um, there's a lot of guys here that are very data driven.

00:22:16.180 I mean, obviously you can't ignore numbers cause that's how you, that's how you incrementally

00:22:21.180 improve. So, you know, our marketers are looking at engagement and the number of people opening

00:22:26.120 and clicking on email and dah, dah, dah. And since they worry about that, what I get to do

00:22:30.680 is go, well, I'm going to talk about this in today's video. And if anybody has a problem

00:22:34.560 with that, then I'm going to put it out to the list. And if it fails abysmally and we

00:22:40.680 get a ton of negative feedback, then I won't do that type of thing again.

00:22:45.020 Right, right. Just real time feedback.

00:22:47.420 Yeah, yeah, of course. But here's the thing. When I started the Art of Charm with AJ, who

00:22:52.720 you met at StyleCon, I can't even count the amount of people that were like, no one's going

00:22:57.860 to pay for that guys. And, uh, those guys have been begging those, those same types of

00:23:02.360 people. I'm probably paying for jobs here all the time because they work at, you know,

00:23:07.100 they still work at the law firm where, well, they don't work at the one I used to work at

00:23:10.080 cause it went under, but they, they're still doing what they always did. And the reason

00:23:13.660 is because they don't know shit. They don't know what people are going to pay for. How do 0.99

00:23:17.040 they know that? It's just what their gut says. Their gut is faulty. Otherwise they're

00:23:20.860 doing something else. Right. And, and my gut is as just as faulty as anyone else's.

00:23:26.040 The difference is I don't care if things fail. So they totally could have been right

00:23:30.540 that nobody's going to pay for the things that we're offering at the Art of Charm.

00:23:33.340 The thing was they were, they were spectacularly not correct. And even if they were, we would

00:23:39.580 have moved on to do something else. Right. So, so what shaped that? Well, we looked at the

00:23:44.940 numbers and we knew we were successful because we were still, we still, we weren't homeless.

00:23:49.240 Right. So that was success for us. Now those numbers and those metrics and that definition

00:23:54.080 of success looks a little bit differently, but I don't really think about it very differently

00:23:57.500 at all because I'm still doing what I like. And sometimes those score huge points with

00:24:03.080 the audience and sometimes they score, they're terrible and I should never do it again. But

00:24:08.520 every time that I think I make something that's a stinker of a show or a crap video or write

00:24:14.580 an email that I don't think is going to resonate with too many people, I get a ton of positive

00:24:19.000 feedback. And often when I think, wow, we just hit that one out of the park, we're going to,

00:24:23.180 everyone's going to love that. I either get crickets or people go, wow, not your best work

00:24:28.100 there, Harbinger. Yeah, it's pretty interesting. Well, so you said something really interesting

00:24:33.600 there. You said, you don't care if you fail. And I know the limited amount I know about you,

00:24:39.200 you're a confident guy. And so my question is, is that because you're, you're confident and that's

00:24:44.660 built into you or has that, you know, built up over time? Because I think a lot of guys need to

00:24:49.440 have some of that, Hey, I don't care if I fail or I don't care what other people think this is the

00:24:53.300 mission I'm going to be on. How do we get to that point? Yeah. It builds up over time. I,

00:24:56.540 first of all, I want to be super clear. I'm, I'm not saying I don't give a fuck what people think 0.99

00:25:02.700 about me. Those guys that say that those guys that are like, Oh, I don't give a fuck. Those like 0.99

00:25:06.680 red pill, alpha dog, internet dorks or whatever people give so many fucks that it guides their entire 0.98

00:25:12.460 life. Of course we talk about nothing else, but how they don't care. Yeah. I don't care if we fail 0.99

00:25:18.340 because I've failed so much, but I'm still here. And every time that we fail, insert cliche here

00:25:24.880 about, you know, two steps forward, one step back or whatever. It's not really like that. It's more

00:25:30.480 like, look, we created a new industry, a new niche. It's built on the personality of myself and my

00:25:36.960 business partner, AJ, how there's no guideline for this. There's no game plan for this. It was

00:25:42.140 massively risky. We're supposed to fail and then figure out what's working. That's, there's no

00:25:47.280 other way to do it. You can't stab in the dark and bat a thousand. It doesn't work. And we're

00:25:52.200 basically feeling around in the dark for what's going to work. And so it's whittling, right?

00:25:57.000 We're, we're whittling something and you know, or let's, let's say it's like sculpting something out

00:26:03.020 of marble. Let's say you're sculpting, sculpting some sort of statue and you're like, this is going to

00:26:07.860 be a really tall man with like giant muscles. And you know, it's, it's going to be amazing.

00:26:14.820 All right, cool. Well, all right. And I, and I do something wrong and like the leg falls off,

00:26:19.420 right? Yeah. Do do, what do I do now? Do I scrap the whole thing and start over because I have this

00:26:25.100 steadfast image in my mind of how it has to be this way and it has to be perfect. Or do I go,

00:26:30.080 no, this is going to be a war veteran who lost his leg in Iraq. I'm, you know, I'm going to put a

00:26:35.580 metal pole and the leg that fell off. Oh, this is even better, right? This is an even better

00:26:39.960 sculpture. And you just sort of deal with what comes to you and you find, oh, wait a minute,

00:26:44.380 this just made history because no one's ever made a sculpture of somebody who is missing a limb,

00:26:49.420 right? So now you're this famous artist that's doing this. If you have an image in your mind of

00:26:53.680 what has to happen, you're going to be really disappointed a lot of the time. And it's going to

00:26:58.740 take you way too long to get there because you don't know what you're doing. And that's just a fact

00:27:04.280 that every entrepreneur I know who's successful is just ready to admit. You have no idea what you're

00:27:11.040 doing. You know what you're doing in the moment. You know what you're doing in principle. But most

00:27:15.680 of the time you're experimenting and you're looking at the numbers and you're using your gut to find

00:27:20.460 new ways to charge around stuff. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And so I don't

00:27:26.080 like the idea like fail faster or fail forward. You're not really failing. You're just experimenting.

00:27:31.060 And I think failing is sort of romanticized. And I think it's stupid. I mean, you're all you're 1.00

00:27:36.700 really doing is trying new things and seeing what works and what doesn't. There's no need to make

00:27:41.000 it this giant poetic struggle of like getting up again and trying again. It's not that it's really

00:27:46.720 not. You're just trying different shit and seeing what works. Don't romanticize it. You're just making 0.96

00:27:52.400 other people feel weird about not trying. Yeah, I really like your perception of failure because I

00:27:56.940 was listening to one of your shows. I think you just did it the other day. And you talked about

00:28:00.220 that. The fail forward, fail faster. And you said failing is pointless. It's not the failing

00:28:04.700 that's beneficial. It's the learning from from that failure. Right. Yeah. And you can learn from

00:28:08.840 success, too, because every time you have a success, you probably didn't do it, quote unquote,

00:28:13.220 perfectly. So you're going to try it again the other time and get the thing you got wrong. Right. And

00:28:18.020 it does that make it more successful or less. So you don't even know what failure looks like in the

00:28:23.100 moment. Going back to the statue thing, you don't know that the leg falling off is a catastrophe.

00:28:27.580 It's not. It turned out to be the best thing for that. The the Iraq veteran statue that I just made 0.76

00:28:33.140 up as we as we do the show here. Right. You don't know what it looks like. You don't know that you

00:28:38.420 doing a selfie video where you were just testing the camera was going to be super popular because

00:28:43.820 you were so raw. You were planning to redo that later with cool intro music and more production

00:28:49.320 filters. But nobody wanted that. Right. Nobody gave a crap about that. And that's why we do the show

00:28:55.960 the way we do it. You know, we edit stuff. We do production value to stop little annoying things

00:29:00.700 from happening like airplanes will filter out that noise or whatever. But if somebody says something

00:29:05.180 or slips up or if I get too excited and trip over my words, they don't edit that out because there's

00:29:09.780 no point in trying to make me look cool on my own show. It doesn't need to be that way.

00:29:14.960 Authenticity is much more powerful. So once I started stopped editing out all of the little flip

00:29:19.680 flubs and flip ups, people were able to relate to me and AJ better. And that was so much more

00:29:25.140 powerful for our brand than trying to make sure we look polished all the time.

00:29:29.220 So how does a guy because I know you're an attorney, right? You're a licensed attorney.

00:29:32.940 And so how does an attorney go from what you were doing then to now you're helping guys with

00:29:38.900 relationship advice and coaching and business development, self-development, all that stuff?

00:29:43.140 How do you make that transition? Yeah, I mean, the way that it is actually pretty direct because

00:29:47.320 I started experimenting with the social dynamics stuff when I was in law school and then I had a

00:29:52.340 real cold shower one day. I got a summer assistant position at the firm on Wall Street and I showed

00:30:00.880 up one day. We had 24-7 access to our office. I showed up one day at like 1 a.m. with a girl

00:30:08.000 trying to get my drink on in my office thinking no one's going to be there on a Saturday night.

00:30:12.640 I was like, I worked right next to World Trade except for there was no more World Trade. So I

00:30:18.220 had an easy view of that and of Manhattan and blah, blah, blah. And I had a badass windowed office

00:30:24.860 with like a nice wooden desk. I looked like a baller. I was 25. Yeah, right. So I brought her up

00:30:30.240 there and I saw everybody in my department working like it was Tuesday at 2 p.m. So I got the hell out

00:30:38.220 of there because I didn't want to get any work. And I was like, you know, buzzing, not a good

00:30:41.540 impression. And on Tuesday when I finally sort of got the shakes off, I went up to this senior

00:30:47.340 associate and I was like, hey man, are we closing a deal or something? Because everybody was here on

00:30:51.920 Saturday. And he goes, no, summer, like summer associate. This is, we're always here on Saturdays.

00:30:57.200 Really? Yeah. Brace yourself, you know, strap your balls up for that because that's reality. And I was

00:31:01.880 like, oh my God. So, uh, that was, that was a kind of an interesting thing where I saw how many people

00:31:09.440 were there, but you know, who wasn't there was the guy who hired me and his name was Dave and Dave was

00:31:13.900 never in the office. And, uh, he was supposed to be my mentor and he, you know, it wasn't like Wolf

00:31:19.740 of Wall Street where we're on the roof doing oyster shooters with Conaghy and it was like, he was

00:31:26.040 supposed to guide me, do something. And he was never there. I saw him when he hired me and

00:31:29.340 like one other time. So HR in the middle of summer is like, how's, how's everyone's mentorship

00:31:34.840 program going? And I was like, mind blows. I don't even know where Dave is. And I'd heard that Dave was

00:31:40.080 the man and he made all this money and he was like the coolest partner, but he was never around. So

00:31:44.140 HR made him take me out for coffee, which by the way, not a good way to get ahead at work.

00:31:49.200 Yeah, for sure.

00:31:49.880 HR complained to your boss. So he, he takes me to Starbucks and he's clacking away on his Blackberry

00:31:55.280 and he's like, all right, dude, ask me anything you want. Kind of annoyed that I'm taking, making

00:32:00.360 him show. Yeah. Like taking his little brother out to lunch or something. Totally. Uh, only I'm not

00:32:05.840 even family. So he's just, how much crappy time do I have to waste with you? So I go, all right. And

00:32:11.300 fully not caring about my job at this point. Cause I had already seen that uncomfortable reality.

00:32:15.860 I said, how come people say that you are one of the highest compensated partners, but you're never in

00:32:21.260 the office. Aren't we supposed to be billing hours? I mean, do you just work from home? Like what's

00:32:25.260 the deal? And he goes, he slams down his Blackberry and he's like, do people say that? Just kind of

00:32:29.760 wide eyed and incredulous. And at this point I'm a huge pussy. So I'm backing away and I'm like, um, 1.00

00:32:35.200 you know, people who run the office may be over. And it's like, okay, I'll tell you what's up, man.

00:32:39.960 He goes, I bring in all the deals. I'm out bringing in business for the real estate department. I bring

00:32:46.140 in the deals. So I'm not working from home. I don't need to bill hours. That's for these guys to do.

00:32:52.140 They're the, they're the guys that build the hours. I get my bonus. I don't get my bill of

00:32:56.580 hour bonus. I get my bonus from bringing in new work and wait a minute. So what you do,

00:33:03.180 and I didn't say this at the time, but basically what it shook out to was he goes and plays golf.

00:33:07.940 He does jujitsu. He does charity cruises. He goes to dinner parties. If there's an investment banker

00:33:12.660 in the city of Manhattan with a day off, his job is to go hang out with that guy because he's likable

00:33:17.460 and cool. And he makes our firm look likable and cool. And when they have work, they give it to us

00:33:21.220 because of him. So what that means for us then is that for purposes of our discussion here, I mean,

00:33:28.580 is that there are people that were sleeping under their desk because they were working so hard.

00:33:32.620 There were people that were so much smarter than me. I didn't even understand what the hell they

00:33:36.600 were saying half the time, but there's one guy who doesn't even have to show up because his time

00:33:41.280 is more valuable spent hanging out and kicking it and showing that we're capable, likable, cool people.

00:33:47.220 And in that somehow more valuable than anybody else in the whole firm. Yeah. And I'm like, I got to be

00:33:53.240 that guy because I hate being in the office. I'm not smarter than everybody else. And I have a great

00:33:58.240 work ethic, but I'm never going to sleep under my desk for a week at a time. I'm just, but I could be

00:34:03.520 this guy. And I wasn't really outgoing or charismatic at all, but I decided I'm going to be that way if it

00:34:09.540 kills me because I'm going to be able, I'm going to have to not be able to, I'm going to have to put

00:34:14.440 in 10,000 hours or whatever into the law game over the next few years to, to master it. So I'll put it

00:34:21.060 into the, the obvious, what's obviously the strongest and most attractive lever in terms of leverage,

00:34:26.740 which is networking and building relationships. Now the problem is I had no fricking idea how to do

00:34:31.320 that. And Dave, you know, this is the point where people go, great. Did he take you under his wing

00:34:35.880 and shut? No, I never. He said, see you later. He was like, all right, peace. I'm going to go do

00:34:40.320 something interesting and I will never see you again. And the thing is that firm later went under

00:34:45.080 and all those people that were working there at one o'clock in the morning, they probably went to

00:34:49.160 a lower rung or they got retired early. If they were partners, Dave walked into another firm as a

00:34:54.900 partner. He very possibly got a raise during the recession because he look a business and nobody else

00:35:00.420 did. Everybody else is a worker bee, right? He, he was the, everybody else was a shiny

00:35:05.760 cog in the machine and he was the engine, right? He was the, for the fuel or wherever you want to go

00:35:10.540 with this. And so he was the most important. So when times were lean, he was still valuable and

00:35:16.300 nobody else was. So what was your next move from going, Hey, I know I want to do that. I want to

00:35:21.040 be that guy. I can see the value in that too. I don't have any idea how to make it work. Where do

00:35:26.520 we go from there? I read every fricking thing I could about networking that existed anywhere on the

00:35:30.900 internet. I read all of those Dale Carnegie books. I took all those courses. And what I found was

00:35:35.640 that nobody has a fricking clue how to teach this stuff. They all, Oh, well, you look people in

00:35:40.640 the eye and you give them a firm handshake. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure that the reason that Dave

00:35:45.580 is bringing in million dollar law is not because he's going and looking people in the eye and giving

00:35:50.180 them a firm handshake. This is the bullshit advice that you get. That's like from somebody who's maybe 0.99

00:35:55.920 okay at it, but has no clue how to teach it. This is follow your passion of networking advice,

00:36:01.240 terrible advice spoken by people who don't know how to teach others to emulate their own

00:36:06.240 success. So I read all that stuff. It led into like psychology and applied psychology and influence.

00:36:13.000 And I started learning everything from NLP and hypnosis to these dating skills and separate. I spent

00:36:19.100 almost a decade and we still spend tons of time separating fact from fiction when it comes to

00:36:24.440 influence and applied psychology. And this stuff that actually fucking works is what we teach at the 0.87

00:36:29.400 art of charm. Obviously, you know, we talk a lot about networking relationships, all that kind of 0.97

00:36:34.280 stuff, which sounds like that's really what you guys are primarily focused around. What do guys in

00:36:40.420 general seem to be struggling with when it comes to this stuff? Are there certain things that that's a

00:36:44.960 reoccurring trend and they're coming to you and they're struggling with these things?

00:36:47.400 Everybody comes in with different stuff. It's actually pretty amazing. You know, it's the differences

00:36:52.160 from the differences in what the issues are vary from guy to guy, because the thing is, you don't

00:36:59.900 know what the here's one of the biggest sticking points that everyone comes in with. You don't know

00:37:04.660 what the problem is. That's why. And we talked about this earlier. That's why you need coaching.

00:37:10.040 That's why I get coaching. So, for example, I know nothing about rock climbing and people out there

00:37:15.400 might know a little bit about that. Do you know anything about it? It might help.

00:37:18.960 I don't know anything. I mean, I've been a couple of times, but I'd kill myself if I went

00:37:23.040 out and I'm going to analogize using something that, you know, what are you good at? What's

00:37:26.760 like your chief hobby? I really like Spartan races. I enjoy golfing. Those are a couple of

00:37:31.560 things I like to do. Okay. Let's go with golf. I know nothing about it, but I've done it like once.

00:37:35.280 Okay. All right. So the reason I'm not good at golf and you can tell me whether this is true or false.

00:37:41.020 The reason in my mind that I'm not good at golf is because I don't know how to hit the ball hard

00:37:46.060 enough to get close to the hole. Does that sound accurate or does that sound like something that

00:37:49.740 knows nothing about golf? Yeah. You sound like you know nothing about golf. Clearly the problem is

00:37:54.680 not that, but from my limited amount of knowledge, I just, if I could hit it harder, it would probably

00:38:00.300 go straighter and it would probably go straight towards the hole. That's obviously not the problem,

00:38:04.840 but people always think that, or I shouldn't say always, people often think they know what their

00:38:11.080 issue is. They're like, no, no, no. I, here's the thing. If I can get people to be interested in me

00:38:16.440 for like 10 minutes, then I'll be able to hold the conversation. And the truth is complete crap. 0.99

00:38:21.460 Oh no. If I could, if I could get people to like see me as a competent worker here, then I would 0.99

00:38:27.760 totally get promoted. That is not true. Oh, you know, if I could get women to see me for kind of

00:38:33.660 like who I am on the inside, then they would totally like me. And then all this other stuff that's

00:38:38.840 really holding me back wouldn't matter. Not true at all. However, when you don't know enough about

00:38:43.620 the problem, the solution might seem really obvious or it might seem really elusive, or you

00:38:50.140 just think that you know what it is when you really have no idea. Right. And, and that's,

00:38:55.020 that's the problem. That's why you need mentorship and outside advice. And that's why I look at the

00:38:59.880 same thing. I would never try to play golf or figure out golf just by going to the course on my own

00:39:04.860 and hitting the ball really hard or going to the driving range. That would not help me at all.

00:39:08.960 I'd end up learning a bunch of really crap habits and have a lower than average swing. That was

00:39:14.480 quote unquote, the best I could do. And in the meantime, I'd be probably screwing up all my

00:39:18.600 joints at the same time. But the thing is, guys know that they go, of course I'm going to get,

00:39:23.300 I have a golf instructor. Well, that's interesting. So you're willing to get a coach for that because

00:39:29.240 it doesn't hurt your ego, but you're not willing to get a coach for something that's going to

00:39:33.780 change the course of your whole life. Why? Because you're afraid your friends are going to laugh at

00:39:37.200 you. I want to ask you a couple other questions before we close things out. The first one, I asked

00:39:41.220 this of everybody and I prepared you a little bit for it. So I'm anxious to hear your answer.

00:39:45.040 And that is, what does it mean to be a man? You know, there's so many definitions and all of them

00:39:50.580 are cliche, right? Yeah, for sure. For me, I just think, and this just goes for humanity in general,

00:39:57.160 developing a set of principles that work for you and that work for those around you, which also of

00:40:02.300 course relates back to you and just sticking to them, even when it's hard. And I don't just mean

00:40:06.780 like, be honest, even when you don't want to, I mean, that's one of them, right? But for me,

00:40:11.780 for example, I like to leave everything better than I found it. So when I'm in a shit mood or I'm 0.96

00:40:16.220 cranky, I kind of go, okay, well, the easy thing right now is for me to sit here and sulk and screw 0.98

00:40:21.680 up everybody's day and make sure he knows I'm upset, but that's not what a man would do. That's what a

00:40:26.000 child would do. So I realize, okay, that conflict, the conflict with one of my guiding principles,

00:40:32.980 which, and one of the principles of the art of charm, which is leave everything better than

00:40:35.780 you found it. So what am I going to do? Am I going to man up and do it? Or am I going to decide to be

00:40:40.120 a little kid about it? And that helps me be who I know I can be and who others expect me to be.

00:40:47.700 And that's good for myself and it's good for those around me. So for me, I say develop a set of

00:40:52.640 principles and stick to them even when it's hard. How did you develop that for yourself? Is that an

00:40:57.260 exercise that you went through? Is that just something, a lot of self-reflection over time,

00:41:00.260 but how did you do that? A lot of self-reflection over time. Yeah.

00:41:03.220 Cause not everybody's going to relate to that one. A lot of people are going to be like,

00:41:06.820 yeah, no, my job is to, I don't know, do something that doesn't involve that. Right. Maybe

00:41:14.040 you work in a really dangerous environment. So your thing is make sure everybody is safe at all times,

00:41:19.620 including myself. Maybe that's more important than making sure people are in a good mood or like

00:41:23.880 you. Maybe you work in a war zone. So safety is much more paramount than positivity, you know?

00:41:30.440 So you, right. Yeah. It makes sense. Maybe your job is to kick people's asses until they listen to

00:41:34.360 you about safe precautions and guidelines. So maybe everyone hates you because you're the guy who is 1.00

00:41:40.900 like the ammunition Nazi and make sure everything's unloaded and not doing pointed at people because,

00:41:46.560 you know, I don't know. I mean, there's different principles that apply at different times.

00:41:51.080 The trick is not to pick and choose the ones you want to apply out of convenience, but out of

00:41:55.860 necessity. Yeah. I spent some time in the military. It sounds like you're describing a drill, a drill

00:42:00.380 sergeant right now. So do you think those guys have a motto, leave everything better than you found it?

00:42:04.600 No, of course not. Of course not. Make sure these people don't die by doing something stupid.

00:42:10.040 Right. Or like harden these guys up. My goal is to make these guys hard. 1.00

00:42:13.240 Because if they're nice to you so that everybody feels good around you, what happens when you're

00:42:17.180 in battle? You get your ass handed to you, right? Right, right. 1.00

00:42:21.260 Just to be weird and orange and bald and yell at you all the time. Yeah. 0.90

00:42:26.340 And scary. That's their job. That's right.

00:42:29.500 They have to literally be scarier than the enemy.

00:42:33.400 Well, Jordan, hey, this has been such a great conversation. Ton of valuable insights that I know

00:42:36.800 a lot of guys are going to walk away with. How do we learn more about you, whether it's the podcast,

00:42:40.420 Art of Charm, or even some of the live programs you talked a little bit about?

00:42:43.420 Yeah. I mean, you're listening to a podcast right now. You don't have to buy anything from me if

00:42:46.800 you don't want to. Just go check out the Art of Charm podcast. You can check us out at theartofcharm.com

00:42:51.500 too if people are interested in some of the stuff that we do offer. And if people want to come in

00:42:55.580 for training and they think you heard me right now and you're like, yes, I want this, you can email

00:43:00.380 me, jordanattheartofcharm.com and we'll get the ball rolling.

00:43:04.240 Cool, man. Yeah, I know. I've reached out to you and I appreciate your responsiveness. So I appreciate

00:43:07.560 you sharing that information and I know you're busy, so I appreciate you and taking time to

00:43:11.420 be on the show today. Thanks a lot, man. Thank you.

00:43:13.940 I told you, man, I hope that you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. Again,

00:43:17.500 I think it was one of, if not my most favorite show to date. Now, if that conversation that we

00:43:23.440 just had does not inspire you to take action, to find a coach, to improve your networking skills and

00:43:28.220 build amazing relationships, I just don't know what will. But if you need a recap of the show,

00:43:33.020 head to orderofman.com slash 034. If you want to say thanks to me and Jordan for this episode,

00:43:38.320 you can do that at orderofman.com slash iTunes. Leave us a review. Tell us what you thought about

00:43:43.280 the show and we'll try to feature it again on an upcoming episode. Remember guys, the Facebook group,

00:43:47.740 we hit a thousand members last week and we are really, really starting to take off. I hope that

00:43:51.780 you'll be there among us. Facebook.com slash groups slash order of man. Guys, I look forward to

00:43:57.680 talking to you next week, but until then take action and become the man you were meant to be.

00:44:02.780 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

00:44:07.360 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - November 10, 2015

OoM 034： Jordan Harbinger ｜ The Power of Coaching, Networking and Building Relationships

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