OoM 034： Jordan Harbinger ｜ The Power of Coaching, Networking and Building Relationships
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Summary
In this episode, Ryan Michler sits down with Jordan Harbinger with The Art of Charm to talk about the power of finding coaches in your life to develop new skills, how to be a better networker, and why building relationships is the most valuable skill set you need to learn.
Transcript
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Today I talk with a man who needs no introduction, Mr. Jordan Harbinger, with the art of charm.
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We talk about the power of finding coaches in your life to develop new skills,
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how to be a better networker, and why building relationships is the most valuable skill set
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you need to learn. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears
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and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every
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time. You are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient. Strong. This is your life.
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This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and
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done, you can call yourself a man. Welcome to the Order of Man podcast, guys. My name is Ryan
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Michler. I am the host and the founder of Order of Man. Glad that you're here with us today. Now,
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I was re-listening to this show with Jordan Harbinger, and I knew, I knew it was good when
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we recorded it, but going through it again, this might be just one of my favorite episodes to date.
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Jordan and I have a real conversation. No punches pulled about why finding coaches in your life is
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so powerful, how you can be a better networker, and why, as Jordan puts it, developing relationships
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is by far the most valuable skill set every successful person has. I'm going to leave you
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hanging on that for just a minute, though, while I give a big shout out to BB1 Shoff. He had this to
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say about the show. This is the best podcast out there. The information is current and diverse.
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Ryan's personality in discussing topics is entertaining as well. Well done. Thanks again
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for that iTunes review, BB1 Shoff. If you still haven't left your review, please head over to
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orderofman.com slash iTunes and leave your review, and we will do everything that we can to feature it
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on a future episode. And then also, a quick reminder of the community we're building in our
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Facebook group. We broke 1,000 members last week. I told you we would, and we actually did that.
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In fact, I think we're closer right now to 1,100 members. Last week on the group, we talked about
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how to deal with bullying, how to help a family member who's an addict, and how you can improve
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your journey of becoming the best man you can be. So please join us over there if you're interested.
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Head to facebook.com slash groups slash orderofman, and I hope to see you there. Now, all the show
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notes, the links, the quotes, you can find all of those at orderofman.com slash 034. Now, let me
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introduce you to our guest, Jordan Harbinger. He's always had an affinity for what he calls social
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influence, interpersonal dynamics, and social engineering. In fact, he's been helping private companies
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test the security of their communication systems and working with law enforcement agencies before
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he was even old enough to drive. He spent several years abroad. He speaks several languages. He's
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worked for various governments and non-governmental agencies overseas. He's traveled through war
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zones. He's actually been kidnapped twice, and he'll be the first to tell you that the only reason
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he's alive and kicking is because his ability to talk his way into and out of just about any situation.
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And we're going to put those skills to the test today. Jordan, thanks for joining us,
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man. I'm glad to have you on the show today. Hey, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.
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So my first question is, tell me a little bit about what some of the topics you cover,
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because I think there's sometimes a big disconnect between where you guys started with
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solely relationship and dating advice to covering the, you know, the broad spectrum of what you guys
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do now. So I want to know what you guys cover when it comes to Art of Charm and what you guys are
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doing. Sure. We cover everything from networking for business to relationship development
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to dating relationships, basically anything that will make you better as a person.
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We're into it. The only exceptions we have are kind of fitness. I like biohacking, but I stay away from
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fitness because the stuff that works, it changes here and there, but I'm not an expert enough to
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decide, separate fact from fiction. And frankly, the stuff that really is the hardcore science-based
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stuff and not just trendy BS or pseudoscience is kind of boring.
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There's so much to it, so much that you've got to actually delve into, right?
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Yeah. So I tend to stick with the lesser known stuff. You can talk to a personal trainer that
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has clients and get fitness advice. But when you ask people how to create rapport with other people,
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you're going to get a load of crap. So we focus on separating that and teaching those skills,
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So how does a guy do that? Because I know there's, I mean, we talked about it earlier before we
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actually started, you know, the, the formal quote unquote, formal recording, I guess, of this podcast.
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There's so much information out there and there's a lot of good stuff, but there's a lot of crap as
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well. And so how does a guy decipher when it comes to, for example, relationship advice,
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decipher what he should actually be listening to and what he should probably avoid?
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Yeah. I mean, whenever there's a lot of folks that like, especially these dumb pickup artist guys,
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and I, and I'm just going to just go out, I'm not going to try to hide my feelings.
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Those guys will be like, you know, why don't we debate on this? And I'm like, nah,
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why don't you just try what we talk about on the show? And when you get results, then come back,
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you know, then you figure out that we're not full of crap. We're not going to like sell you
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some system that's top secret, blah, blah, blah. Like the information should be free.
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And so that's kind of one reason why we, and I say this in air quotes, don't have any competition
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because all of the other people who are selling the information that we're giving away for free
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are doing it in a very, they're doing it discreetly, right? They're like, here's a book
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about networking and relationship. Here's a book about dating. Here's a book.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, that's all fine and dandy, but when you can get it for free and try
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it for yourself, if you want coaching on this, you can buy that from us. If you want feedback from
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coaches, you can pay for that, but the information we're giving away for free. So we sort of
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end run these froofy internet marketer type guys that are just selling a lot of snake oil that's
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supposed to be secret. And, uh, we've really can work around that. So you don't have to believe me
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that this stuff works. Just invest a little bit of your time, try stuff for yourself and you'll see
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that it does. Well, so I had a cool conversation earlier in the year with your business partner,
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AJ about this, because I was asking about some of the live programs you do.
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And I was blown away because he talked a lot about, Hey, we just put ourselves
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right in the situation. And sometimes we fail, but for the most part, we're learning by actually
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doing rather than reading. So tell me a little bit about that.
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Yeah. Even what you're doing with some of your programs.
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Yeah. I mean, you can read all you want, but I don't do you ride a motorcycle or anything?
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Well, somebody out there does. And I think we can all imagine what it would be like to ride
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a motorcycle. I would not want to learn that from a book.
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And you can probably learn a ton about motorcycles from a book, but you want the one thing you
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cannot learn is how to ride it. And that's what we're talking about here. We're talking
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about physical and logical slash emotional skill sets. And so I, I love reading. I think
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people should do more of it. I should do more of it. Hell, you know, but you can only get
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so much learning on your own and reading on your own and you can do a lot of trial and
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error even on your own without coaching, but you're going to spend a lot longer doing it
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and you probably will learn a ton of bad habits that you later have to unlearn. And a lot of
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guys, their ego hurts when they learn about relationships, especially if they're coming
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in for dating stuff, they, their ego really hurts and they don't want to admit to themselves
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that they need what we got. And so what ends up happening is they all, I'll inevitably get an
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email. Like I'm going to see how far I can get on my own. And I'm thinking, okay, I'll go ahead
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because for me, I know where my weaknesses are. And even if I don't, I always get coaching for new
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skills because you are, you're a sponge. If you don't know anything about what you're learning.
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Right. So I, for example, I'm going to get into things like rock climbing and we, you and I were
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just talking about a shooting. And if I do that, I'm not just going to buy a gun and go to the range
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and aim at the middle, right? I want to take a class from an instructor because I don't want to
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learn bad habits that people get by following their gut. When it comes to that stuff, I want to
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learn the right way to do it. Same thing goes for golfs. I mean, if, if you, if you tell somebody
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who's never held a club to hit a golf ball, they can probably hit it, but they're not going to do it
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the way they're supposed to do it to later on build on that same skillset and really nail
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it and be accurate. Right. So coaching is key in the people that don't seem to want to get it.
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Generally, it's an ego issue. Right. Yeah. I was going to ask if that's what it was,
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even maybe even a, is it, is it cheap, you know, being cheap, I don't want to fork out the money,
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right? That too. That's usually an excuse based on an improper calculation of value. So there's a lot
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of people that say, Oh, I can totally learn this on my own. And that comes from a profound lack of
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understanding of what they're actually trying to achieve or what they're trying to learn.
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Because if you knew the work that was involved in developing pretty much any skillset to mastery,
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it's a tremendous amount of work. And so there's nobody that achieves greatness that doesn't take
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a lifetime and doesn't have any mentors. Even people that are like epic, amazing, self-taught folks,
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they still get influence from other people. And generally the reason we know about those Picasso
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types are because they're famous because of what they've done. I'm sorry, but you are not the Picasso
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of golf. You're not the Picasso of shooting and Picasso of rock climbing. So take a class. The thing
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is, I know I'm not that guy either. So I will always get coaching for literally everything that I can.
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And I get coaching for things I'm already good at. I get coaching for things I'm already great at
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because I want to see if there's anything I can learn. So the idea of, I'm just going to figure
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it out for myself is just such a strictly male ego issue. The email we get from women is like,
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oh my God, I totally want to learn this. When can I start? And the email we get from guys is,
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oh, you know, this is great and all, but I'm just going to practice for a while and see how far I get,
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dabble in it, and then fart around. And then in three years, I get an email that's like,
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oh my God, I wish I'd learned this years ago. And it's all I can do just not to backhand them,
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but they need compassion right at that point. So.
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So how do men calculate the value of, you know, you talk about their misunderstanding the value
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created. How do they calculate that and know what's worth investing in and maybe something
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that's not worth investing in? Yeah. A lot of it comes from maturity. So for example,
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one of the reasons that guys come to the art of charm, for example, is they, they realize that
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relationships drive everything without exception. So they're at work and they're like, I'm just going
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to work hard and be the best X, Y, Z that I can be. I'm an engineer, right? I don't need this.
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And I'll, I'll even get emails like that. Like, oh, I'm an engineer and you know, it's primarily
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merit-based where I work or I'm in the military. I don't need that. And that's just a huge misconception.
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What that shows me is that they're completely oblivious to the secret game being played around
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them. And inevitably at some point later on, I don't know if they write this in an email,
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but usually they figure it out two, three, five, 10 years after that is they go, oh my gosh, all
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these people that started work after me got promoted. Are they more talented than me? Not
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really. And then it usually bitterness sets in and they go, oh, well, it's all about who, you know,
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this politics, yeah, it's corrupt here. I'm going to switch companies, you know, or, or they hit a
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recession and they get laid off and they're like, how come Tucker got to stay there? And Jordan got to
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stay there. And Ryan got to stay. I'm smarter than those jerk faces. And then life's unfair and
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they cry into their beer at the bar while they're on employment. So the deal is you can either bury
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your head in the sand and pretend you don't need the skillset or you can realize, look, this, it is
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all about who, you know, and it's not a disadvantage. You just need to get your ass off the couch and
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train yourself and get that skillset to make those relationships because that is what drives
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business. People sell, people buy and sell things from and to one another and they pick people that
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they like. You know, they don't, if you're not spending your own money, you're not competing on
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price, right? You're the person that you like and trust. And smart people realize this and young people
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often fail to get this because they've been in situations where it's apparent that merit is working
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for them. They worked hard in school, so they got into a good college. They worked hard in college, so they
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got the interview and a job at a certain place. But that's becoming even more difficult now. I mean,
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I got my job on Wall Street through a connection and a lot of people who probably had better grades
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and bigger smarts than me, they didn't get that job and they probably just complained about it and
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said, oh, old boys network, sons of bitches. It's not right, you know. And so if you observe enough
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of that, you then either you take one of two roads, you get really bitter about it, which we just
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talked about, or you go, okay, it's time to face reality. I need to learn these skills. And it's never
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too late, but I'll tell you, we get guys coming through the program that are 67, 68 years old and they
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realize, wow, I needed this 50 years ago. We get guys coming through that are 27 years old and they go,
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damn, I wish I'd had this in high school. So it sort of depends on how clued in you are on this being of
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value. And for some people, they stumble on the podcast and they listen and they find they need
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it. It's always very interesting to me to highlight the need for this. And the way that I did it with
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the military was I kept getting a lot of military guys writing in and going, look, I love AOC. I'm
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totally going to take this program when I get out of the service, but I don't need it if I go career
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military because it's merit-based. So what I did is I found a high ranking Lieutenant Colonel in the
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Air Force and he came through the art of charm. And I said, can you talk about why AOC, is AOC
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something you can apply to the military? And he goes, oh my God, yeah, it's all about relationships.
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And I was like, okay, we need to explore this because at the low levels of not just the military,
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but at the low levels of almost every organization that I've observed, the junior people at those low
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levels, they look at it and go, it's merit-based. And the people on the upper levels go, it is
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absolutely 100% not merit-based at all. Interesting. Right. Yeah. And because you see the reality and you
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see how the sausage is made from the top, but from the bottom, sure, there, no one's going to say,
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look, succeeding in this company is not going to be about hard work. It's not going to be about
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innovation. It's not showing up on time. It's going to be about whether or not we like and trust you
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with certain things in the company. Everything else is flexible if we like you. No company has
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ever led that way. However, the reality is always the difference. It's always that way.
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It's interesting. When I started Ordered Men, which is about six months ago, a little over six
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months ago, I had no platform, no group of guys to go to starting from scratch. And I had no idea what
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to do. And the very first thing I did is I jumped online and I said, where are the guys that already
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know how to do this collaborating? And so I went to that men's style con, which your business partner
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went out to, and that's where I met him. And the amount of collaboration and the relationships I
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built there is really what I credit the success in the launch of Order of Man 2. So I totally agree.
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It's all about relationships. Yeah. I mean, anybody who doesn't agree with that,
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I totally understand because I used to be the same way. I was just faced with a very stark reality
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and I saw it firsthand working on Wall Street. And then I looked back at pretty much everything
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that has happened in my life and went, okay, would having a relationship helped at this stage? And
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it's, it's just so readily apparent. And then now that I'm in the position where I'm at talking with
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successful people, I can look at the influence that relationship and impact that relationships have
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on their life. And it's just, it's by far the most valuable skillset that every successful person has
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is always, always relationships, pretty much bar none. And the exceptions are usually famous people,
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right? Like somebody might go, Mark Zuckerberg didn't build Facebook based on connections. He
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just blah, blah, blah, did this and it took off. And I'm like, cool. You, you're willing to bet your
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entire livelihood on that strategy. Yeah. Right. That's the exception, right? Of course.
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The reason is because it's such an anomaly that it sticks out, right? Nobody. And, and now I bet
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you is one of the most well-connected people on the planet. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. I mean,
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it's relationships after the fact. So I know this is probably not even necessarily a fair question
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to ask because it could be different, but I'm sure the principles are the same. If a guy's looking
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to build relationships, whether it's business relationships and contacts or building relationships
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and developing relationships with women or buddies, whatever it may be, what are some steps that
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guys need to be looking at to develop those things, to get better at those things?
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Yeah. I mean, it's all about emotional intelligence. And unfortunately you're right. It,
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it comes down to learning and honing the skill of emotional intelligence. And, and I hate saying
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this because it sounds like I'm trying to frigging upsell, but it's what we teach at bootcamp. And
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you're right. The reason is it's totally different for everybody. Somebody who's married and 45 years
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old with two kids is going to have an entirely different set of sticking points, needs, goals,
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skills required that are going to take them to, to get that, to create that situational confidence,
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that general confidence, get people to like, and trust them, be able to lead, et cetera.
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It's not like, here's five quick tips for being more confident.
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It's not a, like a list for a blog post, right?
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This isn't Buzzfeed. So I'm not going to like jerk people around and tell them like,
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oh, well there's these five tricks. There's tons of drills and exercises you can do to hone a skill,
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but nothing we teach is a secret. It's just about hard work and you need feedback from somebody who
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knows what they are doing. Otherwise you're just going to, you know, I'm putting myself out there
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and I'm going out every night and nothing's working. And it's like, okay, well I can't
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diagnose that. Right. And it's like calling a doctor and going, my stomach hurts. And I go,
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oh, it's definitely cancer. Totally. It's definitely, you totally have cancer. You probably have three
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weeks to live. Nobody would ever do that. Right. Um, they're going to make you come in and run tests.
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Yeah. So you bring up a good point. Then you talk about what you, what you teach and some of
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the things that you go through is not a secret. And I don't think there's a lot of new information
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out there, right? Like for the most part, men know what it is they need to do when they want to get
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fit. They got to exercise, they got to eat better when they want to meet people. They got to go where
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people are. If they want a increase in pay or an advancement at the, at their work, they need to
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have a skill that warrants that. Right. So it's not new information, but what's the gap between what
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guys know and then what they actually do, because not all of us are successful.
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Yeah. I mean, most people fail to take action and stick with that course of action. And a lot of us
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that do take action and stick with a course of action, oftentimes it's the wrong course. I mean,
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I stuck with academics and studying and worked my butt off and went to a top law school and then went,
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geez, this sucks. Why did I do that? Right. And a lot of people do that as well, not just with
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academia, but they stay in jobs and things like that. And then of course that's a skill
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set that, or a character trait, you know, tenacity, great work ethic that will take most people
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far. It's just that it, which direction are you going? And there's a lot of other folks
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that don't apply that because they don't feel that sense of purpose. And so there's always
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going to be a huge gap between knowledge and action. And there's always a huge gap between
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knowledge and action, even at the level of the high performer. I mean, don't you think
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I know I need to read more? Don't you think I know my diet this way? Don't you think I
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know I need to X, Y, Z, but am I doing all of it? No, but I don't think anybody would argue
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that just because I don't do X, Y, Z, I'm not a high performer, right? The results speak
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for themselves. And every high performer has that. It's almost like a syndrome. I bet if you
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talk to guys like Gary Vaynerchuk, who probably don't even sleep, they're like, yeah, well,
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I need to work on this and I need to work on that. And I think there's a, you know,
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you could probably talk to Richard Branson and he'd be like, I could probably do a little bit
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better at X, Y, and Z. You know, it's going to be that shortfall. The trick is not to not have a
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gap between knowledge and action. The trick is to be doing the right amount of action to keep moving
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forward at a speed that makes you comfortable and to occasionally push that comfort zone so that
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So is there a point though, when you're taking a course of action that you probably ought to consider
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throwing in the towel? And if it is, when do you know that? Do I keep going? Do I have tenacity?
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Do I keep punching through and driving through and hope something will work out? Or do you say,
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hey, I'm done with this. I throw up my hands and I'm trying a different course of action. When,
00:20:33.480
Yeah. I mean, for me, it's, it's a really tough question to answer because I've, and I've asked a
00:20:38.000
similar question of people that are really smart, like Seth Godin and Damon Shark Tank, and I'll be
00:20:43.980
totally blunt. Their answers were total crap as well. And the reason is because there's not a
00:20:49.300
good answer to this question, right? There's, there just is not one. I've never seen one in
00:20:54.360
my life. And the reason is because looking at my business, like Art of Charm, I did it because I
00:20:59.940
liked it. It didn't make money for years. Now it makes a crap load. And I'm saying not to brag,
00:21:05.180
but just to say like, look, we're successful. It's a real thing. And you know, it is more money than I
00:21:10.980
ever thought that I would ever make as a grownup or as a human, right? I mean, it's great and super
00:21:16.420
rewarding. And I still love it just as much, if not more than I did before. But if I was just
00:21:21.400
looking at return on investment and are we going the right way and bubble, I would have quit a long
00:21:25.320
time ago. So there's that element of, of not giving a rat's ass, whether or not it's successful
00:21:30.220
and doing it for the sake of doing it now. So they're looking back 2020 hindsight. There are many
00:21:36.500
points at which I, that what we were doing was not working and throw it out the baby with the
00:21:42.040
bathwater. So I don't think that, I don't think it's, is there a time to quit doing something that
00:21:47.800
I could possibly answer? But I think there is a time to realize, okay, this is not working. Let's
00:21:53.560
move over an inch instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Does that make sense?
00:21:58.480
Oh, for sure. So let's take you, for example, with your business and Art of Charm, is it,
00:22:02.300
was it a, a gut instinct? Was it, Hey, I'm looking at these numbers and this is working
00:22:07.320
and this isn't like what's determining that factor to make those adjustments for you and
00:22:12.120
your business? Yes to both. Um, there's a lot of guys here that are very data driven.
00:22:16.180
I mean, obviously you can't ignore numbers cause that's how you, that's how you incrementally
00:22:21.180
improve. So, you know, our marketers are looking at engagement and the number of people opening
00:22:26.120
and clicking on email and dah, dah, dah. And since they worry about that, what I get to do
00:22:30.680
is go, well, I'm going to talk about this in today's video. And if anybody has a problem
00:22:34.560
with that, then I'm going to put it out to the list. And if it fails abysmally and we
00:22:40.680
get a ton of negative feedback, then I won't do that type of thing again.
00:22:47.420
Yeah, yeah, of course. But here's the thing. When I started the Art of Charm with AJ, who
00:22:52.720
you met at StyleCon, I can't even count the amount of people that were like, no one's going
00:22:57.860
to pay for that guys. And, uh, those guys have been begging those, those same types of
00:23:02.360
people. I'm probably paying for jobs here all the time because they work at, you know,
00:23:07.100
they still work at the law firm where, well, they don't work at the one I used to work at
00:23:10.080
cause it went under, but they, they're still doing what they always did. And the reason
00:23:13.660
is because they don't know shit. They don't know what people are going to pay for. How do
00:23:17.040
they know that? It's just what their gut says. Their gut is faulty. Otherwise they're
00:23:20.860
doing something else. Right. And, and my gut is as just as faulty as anyone else's.
00:23:26.040
The difference is I don't care if things fail. So they totally could have been right
00:23:30.540
that nobody's going to pay for the things that we're offering at the Art of Charm.
00:23:33.340
The thing was they were, they were spectacularly not correct. And even if they were, we would
00:23:39.580
have moved on to do something else. Right. So, so what shaped that? Well, we looked at the
00:23:44.940
numbers and we knew we were successful because we were still, we still, we weren't homeless.
00:23:49.240
Right. So that was success for us. Now those numbers and those metrics and that definition
00:23:54.080
of success looks a little bit differently, but I don't really think about it very differently
00:23:57.500
at all because I'm still doing what I like. And sometimes those score huge points with
00:24:03.080
the audience and sometimes they score, they're terrible and I should never do it again. But
00:24:08.520
every time that I think I make something that's a stinker of a show or a crap video or write
00:24:14.580
an email that I don't think is going to resonate with too many people, I get a ton of positive
00:24:19.000
feedback. And often when I think, wow, we just hit that one out of the park, we're going to,
00:24:23.180
everyone's going to love that. I either get crickets or people go, wow, not your best work
00:24:28.100
there, Harbinger. Yeah, it's pretty interesting. Well, so you said something really interesting
00:24:33.600
there. You said, you don't care if you fail. And I know the limited amount I know about you,
00:24:39.200
you're a confident guy. And so my question is, is that because you're, you're confident and that's
00:24:44.660
built into you or has that, you know, built up over time? Because I think a lot of guys need to
00:24:49.440
have some of that, Hey, I don't care if I fail or I don't care what other people think this is the
00:24:53.300
mission I'm going to be on. How do we get to that point? Yeah. It builds up over time. I,
00:24:56.540
first of all, I want to be super clear. I'm, I'm not saying I don't give a fuck what people think
00:25:02.700
about me. Those guys that say that those guys that are like, Oh, I don't give a fuck. Those like
00:25:06.680
red pill, alpha dog, internet dorks or whatever people give so many fucks that it guides their entire
00:25:12.460
life. Of course we talk about nothing else, but how they don't care. Yeah. I don't care if we fail
00:25:18.340
because I've failed so much, but I'm still here. And every time that we fail, insert cliche here
00:25:24.880
about, you know, two steps forward, one step back or whatever. It's not really like that. It's more
00:25:30.480
like, look, we created a new industry, a new niche. It's built on the personality of myself and my
00:25:36.960
business partner, AJ, how there's no guideline for this. There's no game plan for this. It was
00:25:42.140
massively risky. We're supposed to fail and then figure out what's working. That's, there's no
00:25:47.280
other way to do it. You can't stab in the dark and bat a thousand. It doesn't work. And we're
00:25:52.200
basically feeling around in the dark for what's going to work. And so it's whittling, right?
00:25:57.000
We're, we're whittling something and you know, or let's, let's say it's like sculpting something out
00:26:03.020
of marble. Let's say you're sculpting, sculpting some sort of statue and you're like, this is going to
00:26:07.860
be a really tall man with like giant muscles. And you know, it's, it's going to be amazing.
00:26:14.820
All right, cool. Well, all right. And I, and I do something wrong and like the leg falls off,
00:26:19.420
right? Yeah. Do do, what do I do now? Do I scrap the whole thing and start over because I have this
00:26:25.100
steadfast image in my mind of how it has to be this way and it has to be perfect. Or do I go,
00:26:30.080
no, this is going to be a war veteran who lost his leg in Iraq. I'm, you know, I'm going to put a
00:26:35.580
metal pole and the leg that fell off. Oh, this is even better, right? This is an even better
00:26:39.960
sculpture. And you just sort of deal with what comes to you and you find, oh, wait a minute,
00:26:44.380
this just made history because no one's ever made a sculpture of somebody who is missing a limb,
00:26:49.420
right? So now you're this famous artist that's doing this. If you have an image in your mind of
00:26:53.680
what has to happen, you're going to be really disappointed a lot of the time. And it's going to
00:26:58.740
take you way too long to get there because you don't know what you're doing. And that's just a fact
00:27:04.280
that every entrepreneur I know who's successful is just ready to admit. You have no idea what you're
00:27:11.040
doing. You know what you're doing in the moment. You know what you're doing in principle. But most
00:27:15.680
of the time you're experimenting and you're looking at the numbers and you're using your gut to find
00:27:20.460
new ways to charge around stuff. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And so I don't
00:27:26.080
like the idea like fail faster or fail forward. You're not really failing. You're just experimenting.
00:27:31.060
And I think failing is sort of romanticized. And I think it's stupid. I mean, you're all you're
00:27:36.700
really doing is trying new things and seeing what works and what doesn't. There's no need to make
00:27:41.000
it this giant poetic struggle of like getting up again and trying again. It's not that it's really
00:27:46.720
not. You're just trying different shit and seeing what works. Don't romanticize it. You're just making
00:27:52.400
other people feel weird about not trying. Yeah, I really like your perception of failure because I
00:27:56.940
was listening to one of your shows. I think you just did it the other day. And you talked about
00:28:00.220
that. The fail forward, fail faster. And you said failing is pointless. It's not the failing
00:28:04.700
that's beneficial. It's the learning from from that failure. Right. Yeah. And you can learn from
00:28:08.840
success, too, because every time you have a success, you probably didn't do it, quote unquote,
00:28:13.220
perfectly. So you're going to try it again the other time and get the thing you got wrong. Right. And
00:28:18.020
it does that make it more successful or less. So you don't even know what failure looks like in the
00:28:23.100
moment. Going back to the statue thing, you don't know that the leg falling off is a catastrophe.
00:28:27.580
It's not. It turned out to be the best thing for that. The the Iraq veteran statue that I just made
00:28:33.140
up as we as we do the show here. Right. You don't know what it looks like. You don't know that you
00:28:38.420
doing a selfie video where you were just testing the camera was going to be super popular because
00:28:43.820
you were so raw. You were planning to redo that later with cool intro music and more production
00:28:49.320
filters. But nobody wanted that. Right. Nobody gave a crap about that. And that's why we do the show
00:28:55.960
the way we do it. You know, we edit stuff. We do production value to stop little annoying things
00:29:00.700
from happening like airplanes will filter out that noise or whatever. But if somebody says something
00:29:05.180
or slips up or if I get too excited and trip over my words, they don't edit that out because there's
00:29:09.780
no point in trying to make me look cool on my own show. It doesn't need to be that way.
00:29:14.960
Authenticity is much more powerful. So once I started stopped editing out all of the little flip
00:29:19.680
flubs and flip ups, people were able to relate to me and AJ better. And that was so much more
00:29:25.140
powerful for our brand than trying to make sure we look polished all the time.
00:29:29.220
So how does a guy because I know you're an attorney, right? You're a licensed attorney.
00:29:32.940
And so how does an attorney go from what you were doing then to now you're helping guys with
00:29:38.900
relationship advice and coaching and business development, self-development, all that stuff?
00:29:43.140
How do you make that transition? Yeah, I mean, the way that it is actually pretty direct because
00:29:47.320
I started experimenting with the social dynamics stuff when I was in law school and then I had a
00:29:52.340
real cold shower one day. I got a summer assistant position at the firm on Wall Street and I showed
00:30:00.880
up one day. We had 24-7 access to our office. I showed up one day at like 1 a.m. with a girl
00:30:08.000
trying to get my drink on in my office thinking no one's going to be there on a Saturday night.
00:30:12.640
I was like, I worked right next to World Trade except for there was no more World Trade. So I
00:30:18.220
had an easy view of that and of Manhattan and blah, blah, blah. And I had a badass windowed office
00:30:24.860
with like a nice wooden desk. I looked like a baller. I was 25. Yeah, right. So I brought her up
00:30:30.240
there and I saw everybody in my department working like it was Tuesday at 2 p.m. So I got the hell out
00:30:38.220
of there because I didn't want to get any work. And I was like, you know, buzzing, not a good
00:30:41.540
impression. And on Tuesday when I finally sort of got the shakes off, I went up to this senior
00:30:47.340
associate and I was like, hey man, are we closing a deal or something? Because everybody was here on
00:30:51.920
Saturday. And he goes, no, summer, like summer associate. This is, we're always here on Saturdays.
00:30:57.200
Really? Yeah. Brace yourself, you know, strap your balls up for that because that's reality. And I was
00:31:01.880
like, oh my God. So, uh, that was, that was a kind of an interesting thing where I saw how many people
00:31:09.440
were there, but you know, who wasn't there was the guy who hired me and his name was Dave and Dave was
00:31:13.900
never in the office. And, uh, he was supposed to be my mentor and he, you know, it wasn't like Wolf
00:31:19.740
of Wall Street where we're on the roof doing oyster shooters with Conaghy and it was like, he was
00:31:26.040
supposed to guide me, do something. And he was never there. I saw him when he hired me and
00:31:29.340
like one other time. So HR in the middle of summer is like, how's, how's everyone's mentorship
00:31:34.840
program going? And I was like, mind blows. I don't even know where Dave is. And I'd heard that Dave was
00:31:40.080
the man and he made all this money and he was like the coolest partner, but he was never around. So
00:31:44.140
HR made him take me out for coffee, which by the way, not a good way to get ahead at work.
00:31:49.880
HR complained to your boss. So he, he takes me to Starbucks and he's clacking away on his Blackberry
00:31:55.280
and he's like, all right, dude, ask me anything you want. Kind of annoyed that I'm taking, making
00:32:00.360
him show. Yeah. Like taking his little brother out to lunch or something. Totally. Uh, only I'm not
00:32:05.840
even family. So he's just, how much crappy time do I have to waste with you? So I go, all right. And
00:32:11.300
fully not caring about my job at this point. Cause I had already seen that uncomfortable reality.
00:32:15.860
I said, how come people say that you are one of the highest compensated partners, but you're never in
00:32:21.260
the office. Aren't we supposed to be billing hours? I mean, do you just work from home? Like what's
00:32:25.260
the deal? And he goes, he slams down his Blackberry and he's like, do people say that? Just kind of
00:32:29.760
wide eyed and incredulous. And at this point I'm a huge pussy. So I'm backing away and I'm like, um,
00:32:35.200
you know, people who run the office may be over. And it's like, okay, I'll tell you what's up, man.
00:32:39.960
He goes, I bring in all the deals. I'm out bringing in business for the real estate department. I bring
00:32:46.140
in the deals. So I'm not working from home. I don't need to bill hours. That's for these guys to do.
00:32:52.140
They're the, they're the guys that build the hours. I get my bonus. I don't get my bill of
00:32:56.580
hour bonus. I get my bonus from bringing in new work and wait a minute. So what you do,
00:33:03.180
and I didn't say this at the time, but basically what it shook out to was he goes and plays golf.
00:33:07.940
He does jujitsu. He does charity cruises. He goes to dinner parties. If there's an investment banker
00:33:12.660
in the city of Manhattan with a day off, his job is to go hang out with that guy because he's likable
00:33:17.460
and cool. And he makes our firm look likable and cool. And when they have work, they give it to us
00:33:21.220
because of him. So what that means for us then is that for purposes of our discussion here, I mean,
00:33:28.580
is that there are people that were sleeping under their desk because they were working so hard.
00:33:32.620
There were people that were so much smarter than me. I didn't even understand what the hell they
00:33:36.600
were saying half the time, but there's one guy who doesn't even have to show up because his time
00:33:41.280
is more valuable spent hanging out and kicking it and showing that we're capable, likable, cool people.
00:33:47.220
And in that somehow more valuable than anybody else in the whole firm. Yeah. And I'm like, I got to be
00:33:53.240
that guy because I hate being in the office. I'm not smarter than everybody else. And I have a great
00:33:58.240
work ethic, but I'm never going to sleep under my desk for a week at a time. I'm just, but I could be
00:34:03.520
this guy. And I wasn't really outgoing or charismatic at all, but I decided I'm going to be that way if it
00:34:09.540
kills me because I'm going to be able, I'm going to have to not be able to, I'm going to have to put
00:34:14.440
in 10,000 hours or whatever into the law game over the next few years to, to master it. So I'll put it
00:34:21.060
into the, the obvious, what's obviously the strongest and most attractive lever in terms of leverage,
00:34:26.740
which is networking and building relationships. Now the problem is I had no fricking idea how to do
00:34:31.320
that. And Dave, you know, this is the point where people go, great. Did he take you under his wing
00:34:35.880
and shut? No, I never. He said, see you later. He was like, all right, peace. I'm going to go do
00:34:40.320
something interesting and I will never see you again. And the thing is that firm later went under
00:34:45.080
and all those people that were working there at one o'clock in the morning, they probably went to
00:34:49.160
a lower rung or they got retired early. If they were partners, Dave walked into another firm as a
00:34:54.900
partner. He very possibly got a raise during the recession because he look a business and nobody else
00:35:00.420
did. Everybody else is a worker bee, right? He, he was the, everybody else was a shiny
00:35:05.760
cog in the machine and he was the engine, right? He was the, for the fuel or wherever you want to go
00:35:10.540
with this. And so he was the most important. So when times were lean, he was still valuable and
00:35:16.300
nobody else was. So what was your next move from going, Hey, I know I want to do that. I want to
00:35:21.040
be that guy. I can see the value in that too. I don't have any idea how to make it work. Where do
00:35:26.520
we go from there? I read every fricking thing I could about networking that existed anywhere on the
00:35:30.900
internet. I read all of those Dale Carnegie books. I took all those courses. And what I found was
00:35:35.640
that nobody has a fricking clue how to teach this stuff. They all, Oh, well, you look people in
00:35:40.640
the eye and you give them a firm handshake. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure that the reason that Dave
00:35:45.580
is bringing in million dollar law is not because he's going and looking people in the eye and giving
00:35:50.180
them a firm handshake. This is the bullshit advice that you get. That's like from somebody who's maybe
00:35:55.920
okay at it, but has no clue how to teach it. This is follow your passion of networking advice,
00:36:01.240
terrible advice spoken by people who don't know how to teach others to emulate their own
00:36:06.240
success. So I read all that stuff. It led into like psychology and applied psychology and influence.
00:36:13.000
And I started learning everything from NLP and hypnosis to these dating skills and separate. I spent
00:36:19.100
almost a decade and we still spend tons of time separating fact from fiction when it comes to
00:36:24.440
influence and applied psychology. And this stuff that actually fucking works is what we teach at the
00:36:29.400
art of charm. Obviously, you know, we talk a lot about networking relationships, all that kind of
00:36:34.280
stuff, which sounds like that's really what you guys are primarily focused around. What do guys in
00:36:40.420
general seem to be struggling with when it comes to this stuff? Are there certain things that that's a
00:36:44.960
reoccurring trend and they're coming to you and they're struggling with these things?
00:36:47.400
Everybody comes in with different stuff. It's actually pretty amazing. You know, it's the differences
00:36:52.160
from the differences in what the issues are vary from guy to guy, because the thing is, you don't
00:36:59.900
know what the here's one of the biggest sticking points that everyone comes in with. You don't know
00:37:04.660
what the problem is. That's why. And we talked about this earlier. That's why you need coaching.
00:37:10.040
That's why I get coaching. So, for example, I know nothing about rock climbing and people out there
00:37:15.400
might know a little bit about that. Do you know anything about it? It might help.
00:37:18.960
I don't know anything. I mean, I've been a couple of times, but I'd kill myself if I went
00:37:23.040
out and I'm going to analogize using something that, you know, what are you good at? What's
00:37:26.760
like your chief hobby? I really like Spartan races. I enjoy golfing. Those are a couple of
00:37:31.560
things I like to do. Okay. Let's go with golf. I know nothing about it, but I've done it like once.
00:37:35.280
Okay. All right. So the reason I'm not good at golf and you can tell me whether this is true or false.
00:37:41.020
The reason in my mind that I'm not good at golf is because I don't know how to hit the ball hard
00:37:46.060
enough to get close to the hole. Does that sound accurate or does that sound like something that
00:37:49.740
knows nothing about golf? Yeah. You sound like you know nothing about golf. Clearly the problem is
00:37:54.680
not that, but from my limited amount of knowledge, I just, if I could hit it harder, it would probably
00:38:00.300
go straighter and it would probably go straight towards the hole. That's obviously not the problem,
00:38:04.840
but people always think that, or I shouldn't say always, people often think they know what their
00:38:11.080
issue is. They're like, no, no, no. I, here's the thing. If I can get people to be interested in me
00:38:16.440
for like 10 minutes, then I'll be able to hold the conversation. And the truth is complete crap.
00:38:21.460
Oh no. If I could, if I could get people to like see me as a competent worker here, then I would
00:38:27.760
totally get promoted. That is not true. Oh, you know, if I could get women to see me for kind of
00:38:33.660
like who I am on the inside, then they would totally like me. And then all this other stuff that's
00:38:38.840
really holding me back wouldn't matter. Not true at all. However, when you don't know enough about
00:38:43.620
the problem, the solution might seem really obvious or it might seem really elusive, or you
00:38:50.140
just think that you know what it is when you really have no idea. Right. And, and that's,
00:38:55.020
that's the problem. That's why you need mentorship and outside advice. And that's why I look at the
00:38:59.880
same thing. I would never try to play golf or figure out golf just by going to the course on my own
00:39:04.860
and hitting the ball really hard or going to the driving range. That would not help me at all.
00:39:08.960
I'd end up learning a bunch of really crap habits and have a lower than average swing. That was
00:39:14.480
quote unquote, the best I could do. And in the meantime, I'd be probably screwing up all my
00:39:18.600
joints at the same time. But the thing is, guys know that they go, of course I'm going to get,
00:39:23.300
I have a golf instructor. Well, that's interesting. So you're willing to get a coach for that because
00:39:29.240
it doesn't hurt your ego, but you're not willing to get a coach for something that's going to
00:39:33.780
change the course of your whole life. Why? Because you're afraid your friends are going to laugh at
00:39:37.200
you. I want to ask you a couple other questions before we close things out. The first one, I asked
00:39:41.220
this of everybody and I prepared you a little bit for it. So I'm anxious to hear your answer.
00:39:45.040
And that is, what does it mean to be a man? You know, there's so many definitions and all of them
00:39:50.580
are cliche, right? Yeah, for sure. For me, I just think, and this just goes for humanity in general,
00:39:57.160
developing a set of principles that work for you and that work for those around you, which also of
00:40:02.300
course relates back to you and just sticking to them, even when it's hard. And I don't just mean
00:40:06.780
like, be honest, even when you don't want to, I mean, that's one of them, right? But for me,
00:40:11.780
for example, I like to leave everything better than I found it. So when I'm in a shit mood or I'm
00:40:16.220
cranky, I kind of go, okay, well, the easy thing right now is for me to sit here and sulk and screw
00:40:21.680
up everybody's day and make sure he knows I'm upset, but that's not what a man would do. That's what a
00:40:26.000
child would do. So I realize, okay, that conflict, the conflict with one of my guiding principles,
00:40:32.980
which, and one of the principles of the art of charm, which is leave everything better than
00:40:35.780
you found it. So what am I going to do? Am I going to man up and do it? Or am I going to decide to be
00:40:40.120
a little kid about it? And that helps me be who I know I can be and who others expect me to be.
00:40:47.700
And that's good for myself and it's good for those around me. So for me, I say develop a set of
00:40:52.640
principles and stick to them even when it's hard. How did you develop that for yourself? Is that an
00:40:57.260
exercise that you went through? Is that just something, a lot of self-reflection over time,
00:41:00.260
but how did you do that? A lot of self-reflection over time. Yeah.
00:41:03.220
Cause not everybody's going to relate to that one. A lot of people are going to be like,
00:41:06.820
yeah, no, my job is to, I don't know, do something that doesn't involve that. Right. Maybe
00:41:14.040
you work in a really dangerous environment. So your thing is make sure everybody is safe at all times,
00:41:19.620
including myself. Maybe that's more important than making sure people are in a good mood or like
00:41:23.880
you. Maybe you work in a war zone. So safety is much more paramount than positivity, you know?
00:41:30.440
So you, right. Yeah. It makes sense. Maybe your job is to kick people's asses until they listen to
00:41:34.360
you about safe precautions and guidelines. So maybe everyone hates you because you're the guy who is
00:41:40.900
like the ammunition Nazi and make sure everything's unloaded and not doing pointed at people because,
00:41:46.560
you know, I don't know. I mean, there's different principles that apply at different times.
00:41:51.080
The trick is not to pick and choose the ones you want to apply out of convenience, but out of
00:41:55.860
necessity. Yeah. I spent some time in the military. It sounds like you're describing a drill, a drill
00:42:00.380
sergeant right now. So do you think those guys have a motto, leave everything better than you found it?
00:42:04.600
No, of course not. Of course not. Make sure these people don't die by doing something stupid.
00:42:10.040
Right. Or like harden these guys up. My goal is to make these guys hard.
00:42:13.240
Because if they're nice to you so that everybody feels good around you, what happens when you're
00:42:17.180
in battle? You get your ass handed to you, right? Right, right.
00:42:21.260
Just to be weird and orange and bald and yell at you all the time. Yeah.
00:42:29.500
They have to literally be scarier than the enemy.
00:42:33.400
Well, Jordan, hey, this has been such a great conversation. Ton of valuable insights that I know
00:42:36.800
a lot of guys are going to walk away with. How do we learn more about you, whether it's the podcast,
00:42:40.420
Art of Charm, or even some of the live programs you talked a little bit about?
00:42:43.420
Yeah. I mean, you're listening to a podcast right now. You don't have to buy anything from me if
00:42:46.800
you don't want to. Just go check out the Art of Charm podcast. You can check us out at theartofcharm.com
00:42:51.500
too if people are interested in some of the stuff that we do offer. And if people want to come in
00:42:55.580
for training and they think you heard me right now and you're like, yes, I want this, you can email
00:43:00.380
me, jordanattheartofcharm.com and we'll get the ball rolling.
00:43:04.240
Cool, man. Yeah, I know. I've reached out to you and I appreciate your responsiveness. So I appreciate
00:43:07.560
you sharing that information and I know you're busy, so I appreciate you and taking time to
00:43:11.420
be on the show today. Thanks a lot, man. Thank you.
00:43:13.940
I told you, man, I hope that you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. Again,
00:43:17.500
I think it was one of, if not my most favorite show to date. Now, if that conversation that we
00:43:23.440
just had does not inspire you to take action, to find a coach, to improve your networking skills and
00:43:28.220
build amazing relationships, I just don't know what will. But if you need a recap of the show,
00:43:33.020
head to orderofman.com slash 034. If you want to say thanks to me and Jordan for this episode,
00:43:38.320
you can do that at orderofman.com slash iTunes. Leave us a review. Tell us what you thought about
00:43:43.280
the show and we'll try to feature it again on an upcoming episode. Remember guys, the Facebook group,
00:43:47.740
we hit a thousand members last week and we are really, really starting to take off. I hope that
00:43:51.780
you'll be there among us. Facebook.com slash groups slash order of man. Guys, I look forward to
00:43:57.680
talking to you next week, but until then take action and become the man you were meant to be.
00:44:02.780
Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life
00:44:07.360
and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.