Rodney King is a leading expert in functional martial arts and performance coaching. He has coached thousands of athletes each year from around the world, and has released several award-winning instructional DVDs where he coaches his unique approach to martial arts training. He is the author of Full Contact Living, a book designed to use the teachings and lessons from a lifetime of studying martial arts, and applying it into all aspects of daily life.
00:00:00.000You know as well as I do that protecting our loved ones is a key component of being a man.
00:00:04.400And that's what I thought we'd talk about today when I started the conversation with my guest, Rodney King.
00:00:08.160But the conversation quickly went another route as Rodney and I talk about how self-defense and martial arts can help you become more mindful and achieve mastery in all areas of your life.
00:00:44.120My name is Ryan Michler and I am the founder of The Order of Man.
00:00:47.340Now, if you're new to the podcast today, we talk about all things manly, leadership, self-mastery, relationships, wealth, business, health, and so much more.
00:00:53.840Basically, all the manly conversations you could have all tied together in one place.
00:00:58.480Now, today we're talking about how martial arts and self-defense can help you master every single area of your life.
00:01:04.300And before I get too much into the conversation, I want to call you out for a minute.
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00:02:38.640He is a leading expert in functional martial arts and performance coaching.
00:02:42.400In fact, his programs are now represented in over 15 countries worldwide and continuing to grow.
00:02:48.840He's coached thousands of athletes each year from around the world, and he's released several award-winning instructional DVDs where he coaches his unique approach to martial arts training.
00:02:57.520And more recently, you can add author to his list of credentials.
00:03:00.000He is the author of Full Contact Living, a book designed to use the teachings and lessons from a lifetime of studying martial arts and applying it into all aspects of daily life.
00:03:13.600I love your show, and I'm excited to be here.
00:03:16.080So this is a conversation that I know is on a lot of guys' mind, especially in the current climate of the world, which is a lot of turmoil, a lot of unknown and uncertainty.
00:03:26.780And I want to know from you why you think self-defense is such a critical component that men need to learn to develop.
00:03:32.940Well, I think we can come at it a couple of different ways.
00:03:35.160I think in the one sense, as you noted, it does seem like there's this climate where the world is on its edge.
00:03:42.380But I like to think about it in the sense that is that really true, though, you know, because is that just maybe the media portraying that?
00:03:53.700And I think for guys, they need to be kind of careful that they don't get sucked into that.
00:03:58.040And going out and learning how to defend yourself doesn't become this thing that becomes paranoia in your life.
00:04:04.100And now you think that there's an attacker out on every street corner because that isn't the case.
00:04:08.600I mean, as somebody who's taught martial arts for the last two decades, I could tell you that the vast majority of people that train in modern martial arts will likely never be in a position where they actually have to use it.
00:04:21.700I do think it's important because I understand that kind of almost the primal nature of it is that if you go back to the beginning of time when we were first on this planet, two things were certain, survival and procreation.
00:04:35.820So there's kind of this primal energy that's part of it.
00:04:38.600And I think it's natural for guys to want to seek out a way to harness or at least come to know that energy.
00:04:46.280And so I think that's part of the attraction.
00:04:48.040I think a lot of times it gets skewed with this whole idea of self-defense.
00:04:52.720I think that's what the conscious mind tells us as guys that we need to do it.
00:04:56.840But I actually think deep down inside the reason why we want to go and learn how to defend ourselves because it promises an opportunity to become more as a man.
00:05:06.640And I think that's really what's driving it.
00:05:13.100But I think in that sense, martial arts offers what we could consider potentially a modern-day initiation, you're right, for men, which was always the case throughout history, right?
00:05:24.260How does this translate then to other areas of your life?
00:05:26.720Because you're telling me not to approach it necessarily from the self-defense of it and approach it from, hey, this is going to help me be a better man.
00:05:37.800I think first off, I mean, there's nothing wrong with learning how to defend yourself.
00:05:41.220I think it's honorable to be able to do that.
00:05:43.280I live in Johannesburg, which is considered one of the most violent cities in the world.
00:05:48.740I want to be in a position that if a situation arose, especially in my house with my family, that I had the skill sets to be able to deal with it and I was able to defend myself.
00:06:00.080But if I only went and did this whole martial art experience just for self-defense, I mean, how long are you actually going to do that for?
00:06:07.220I mean, how long do you actually have to do it before you really start developing some skills?
00:06:10.840A couple of years in, it has to be more than just that.
00:06:14.120And I think this is where martial arts really can stand out and help guys become better as men.
00:06:20.640And I think the one place that it can help guys is give them a different perspective on these energies that are often seen as negative in the world.
00:06:30.220You know, as men, we always get told that we're hyper-aggressive, that all we care about is warmongering and getting into like this kind of bravado kind of things.
00:06:49.520So one of the things, let me give you an example that I try to do on the mat when I'm working with guys because most of my clients are men.
00:06:57.440You know, guys come in, maybe their life isn't going that great.
00:07:00.960They find that they're being overly aggressive.
00:07:04.760Maybe they're being short with their wife, short with their kids, and they're trying to find a better way to cope with this.
00:07:10.340And if I can teach them in my environment, in a sparring environment, for example, where somebody is trying to punch you in the face,
00:07:16.260not to buy into that anger and express it in a negative way, but learn to accept it, to be mindful of it, because that's really what I'm teaching.
00:07:26.480I'm teaching guys to be mindful of these energies that arise within them and then learn to manage it differently and have a different relationship with it.
00:07:36.720And if they can do that, they start to realize that that very energy, that aggressive energy that gets them into trouble, per se, you know, in relationships and so forth,
00:07:47.220is also the very energy that they require in order to achieve the goals that they set for themselves.
00:07:52.800It just depends on what narrative that you're creating around it.
00:07:56.640And I would argue that for most men, it's not the emotion that's the problem, because I don't see any emotion as negative.
00:08:04.200I think all emotions are there for specific reasons to enable us to survive and to move towards the goals that we set.
00:08:11.900But it's the story that we create around it.
00:08:14.560And if I can teach guys to have a different story around these energies, not what society is telling us,
00:08:20.940because, you know, in some quarters of society, if they could have their way, they would go into genetics and go into the genome and take out the genes for aggression, right?
00:09:12.760So if we look at the word self-defense, there's also the defense of the self.
00:09:18.540I don't think any guy likes it when he flies off the handle or when he can't seem to get a control of these internal stirrings that arise within him.
00:09:30.200And naturally, then, guys try to find outlets to try to get a handle on that.
00:09:35.020And unfortunately, a lot of times, it ends up being negative stuff.
00:09:38.420Either they drink too much, do drugs, party too hard.
00:10:57.080And really, that's what I'm trying to do.
00:10:58.660I'm trying to help men re-embrace the art without saying to them that any of these energies that they experience,
00:11:06.160even though society is telling them that they're bad, there's nothing wrong with them.
00:11:10.900It's just that it's misplaced and they don't really understand the language.
00:11:14.160And what happens if we learn how to understand that in a productive way so that we can use those energies in a way to not only have a better sense of control over ourselves and our environment,
00:12:43.060But when I was able to do it without becoming attached to the way that I was feeling and thinking,
00:12:49.200and I was able to be completely mindful in the moment without that attachment to a narrative, to a story,
00:12:55.320I realized that I could do what I needed to do in order to, quote-unquote, defend myself.
00:13:01.240But I didn't have to go into that kind of negative spiral that often is associated with it.
00:13:06.720And this is something that has always been part and parcel of, for example, warrior cultures like the samurai.
00:13:14.380There's a quote that goes on the line of something similar to this where they talk about the samurai going onto the battlefield as if he had already died.
00:13:23.300Well, they're not saying he's suicidal.
00:13:25.600What they're saying is he's done the training and he's there, present, in the moment, and he will just respond to whatever arises without attachment.
00:13:34.100It almost sounds like we hear things like the quiet guy is usually the most confident or the one who's making the most noise or the most ruckus is the one who has the biggest self-esteem issues.
00:13:43.960And it sounds like that's what you're talking about here.
00:13:45.500Yeah, because every great fighter that I've ever been around and had the privilege to learn from, if we could call them just as a general term, call them a fighter.
00:13:55.200But I would say that they were more martial artists than fighters.
00:13:59.880You would never have thought that they had the skills that they had.
00:14:02.960But those skills that they had in their ability to defend themselves didn't just stay within the realm of self-defense.
00:14:11.020It also moved into other parts of their life.
00:14:14.100So that calmness that they were able to show on the mat when most other people are falling apart or spiraling into this whole aggressive kind of vortex, when they were completely calm on the mat, they were also calm in their life.
00:14:28.380And I think, you know, for a lot of times for guys, where do we get to practice these skills these days?
00:14:34.440I mean, back in the day, you know, when we were hunter-gatherers, when we were part of a tribe, when we went out on the hunt, these were the times where we practiced these skills.
00:14:42.780I mean, think about going on a hunt if you only had spears and bow and arrows.
00:15:13.160And I think martial arts still has an opportunity and a place in the world where it can actually help men have a modern-day initiation right where they can learn to engage with their primitive nature, but in such a way that it becomes a productive aspect, not only in a self-defense environment, but also as they move into the world.
00:15:34.260And so coming back to what I said was that all the greatest fighters that I ever met were not only calm on the mat, but were calm in life.
00:15:41.780They were able to move through the world in a way that exuded confidence, but never with arrogance.
00:15:47.980And this is what's something that stood out for me.
00:15:53.500Anybody that – any of the guys listening to this that have watched martial art movies, as probably we both have, when I was growing up, you know, the Bruce Lee movies, the Jackie Chan movies.
00:16:03.820The thing that was attractive there, if we're really honest, wasn't really the fighting scenes, although that was cool, but I think what most men found attractive was this guy that was unassuming, that was being picked on in his neighborhood, or there was a gang that came into his village, and there was nothing he could do about it.
00:16:23.140And he went off, and he went and looked for a teacher, he found a teacher, he learned the martial skills, so he learned how to fight, but in the process, the teacher also taught him about the art, how to live.
00:16:36.120And in actual fact, when he came back to face down those bullies, he tried to talk his way through this.
00:16:42.900He tried to talk them out of this whole thing and get them to leave amicably.
00:16:47.620And then when that wasn't available, he would do what he needed to do.
00:16:51.660He would fight them, but he would only go as far as he needed to to prove his point.
00:16:56.780And there's always that climax in the movie, right, where he's beaten the guy.
00:17:00.480He turns his back and he's walking away because he knows that he's won.
00:17:04.400And it's the typical scene in the movie, right?
00:17:06.100The guy cheats, he pulls out a plane or something.
00:17:08.400And then he does whatever he needs to do to end it, and he walks off as if it never happened.
00:19:00.500So when I wasn't trying to bypass the gangs and having roots to get around them, I was trying to survive the bullies at school.
00:19:08.540Very early on, it was very evident to me that how smart you were was completely irrelevant, but how tough you were was all that mattered.
00:19:16.360And really, that's the way it seemed to me is that you needed to be tough, and you had to be tough to survive that.
00:19:20.960And so I imported that mindset into my life.
00:19:23.260And even once I got through the military and I opened up my first gym and I started teaching and started getting a reputation, I thought that that's the only way to be taken seriously in the environment that I found myself to be tough, even as I stood outside some of the roughest nightclubs in Johannesburg.
00:19:38.540But what I never told anybody was that even though I was winning the physical fights all the time, my insecurities remained.
00:20:48.060All my bills were paid by basically either fighting or teaching other people how to fight.
00:20:53.040But when you look at it, it just seemed like a senseless way to live in the world.
00:20:57.320It didn't seem like I was really making a difference, not only in my own life, but in anybody else's life.
00:21:02.700So I made the hard decision that I needed to find a better way to experience this.
00:21:07.360I didn't want to give up martial arts, although I did stop teaching for a little while because I felt that I was suffering from what I called a tough guy's depression.
00:21:16.240So I was depressed, and so I stopped teaching.
00:21:20.040So I kind of said to myself, if I'm going to come back into this world, I need to find a positive way to do it.
00:21:24.860It needs to be more than just about the fight.
00:21:26.880And so my realization was that I'd only been following one part of this path, which was the martial path.
00:21:33.240But I had forgotten and neglected the art.
00:21:35.920Coming back to the story that I mentioned earlier when we talk about those old kung fu movies,
00:21:40.120that was really what those old teachers taught.
00:24:05.720I mean, you talk about the samurais with calligraphy and the tea ceremony.
00:24:08.840What are some modern day soft skills that you think men need to participate in to find the balance between the warrior, like you say, and that refined man?
00:24:17.780The way that I approach it is I like to teach these primal arts and martial arts is obviously my vehicle.
00:24:26.600But the soft skill that I teach along with that is the ability to be mindful while you're in what is typically considered from the outside a violent experience.
00:24:39.080If I'm sparring you, for example, and we put on gloves and we go at each other, if we can be mindful while we do that, that even though we're feeling and thinking a certain way, that we're not buying into our narrative, we're not creating a story around it, we're able to be completely present in the moment.
00:24:57.980That is a soft skill because if we go back and we understand what mindfulness really means, it means to be present, specifically to be non-judgmental.
00:25:10.780And I would argue that, like I said earlier, I don't believe that there's any emotion that's negative.
00:25:15.340What's often negative is the story, the narrative that we create around it.
00:25:21.180So if I'm sparring you and you catch me with a shot, and there's maybe people on the side that are watching, and I feel that because I'm the teacher, I shouldn't be able to be hit.
00:25:32.540And now I'm attaching to that story and I'm thinking about what other people might have thought of me and they might think that I don't necessarily have the skill or I don't deserve to be there because you're a beginner and you caught me.
00:25:46.240It's not necessarily what the feeling, what the sensations are, or the emotions.
00:25:50.480It's the story I attach to it that creates my problems.
00:25:54.180But what happens if I can let go of the story?
00:25:57.340What happens if I can surf that edge of the chaos without attaching to the story and just be completely present in the moment and be in what's considered, I guess, a violent place to be?
00:26:07.700Because most people who don't understand martial arts just think it's about violence.
00:26:12.000But I would argue that when you approach it from that perspective, it's about becoming more as a human being and, in actual fact, overcoming the violence.
00:26:20.840Because I don't think that you can overcome the violence within yourself by ignoring it or pretending that it doesn't exist.
00:26:28.320What you need to learn to do is to be with it in a different way, to befriend it, as I said earlier, and to learn to not attach to your narrative, to your stories.
00:26:37.200Because most of us spend an inordinate amount of our time, either in the past or the future, hanging on to past mistakes or worrying about what's going to happen next.
00:26:48.820Now, there's no more of a powerful experience, an embodied experience, than being in the midst of this chaotic environment where you're trying to hit me and I'm trying to hit you, but we're being present at the same time, that we're being mindful in that experience.
00:27:04.480Not only oftentimes do you find yourself going to a flow state, which in itself is a beautiful place to be, but what you start to realize is that just because you feel or think a certain way doesn't mean that you can't achieve what you need to achieve.
00:27:21.040It's a liberating thinking process to have.
00:27:23.800So I've got a follow-up question on this situation where you said that if a student maybe catches the teacher and you talk about not attaching a story to that and being present and mindful, what would be the better outcome in that scenario?
00:27:39.800How would you address that specific scenario?
00:27:42.160What does it mean to be mindful in that lesson?
00:27:45.040Well, if I'm not attaching a story to it, then I'm not either moving into the past or the future, which means I'm completely in the present moment.
00:27:54.640And the outcome is that I just continue to do what I need to do.
00:27:58.220In that moment in time, it means I need to spar.
00:28:01.300But I mean, you could take that and you can export that idea anywhere else.
00:28:05.780And we can say, let's say, for example, I've got this business idea and I need to pitch it to people.
00:28:13.020And I'm starting to do my pitch, but I'm watching how people are responding to it.
00:28:18.440And for whatever reason, I think that it's not going well based on how they're reacting just from their body language.
00:28:24.500And I start going into a narrative in my head.
00:28:26.800Nobody's aware of that I'm going into that narrative, but I'm going into it.
00:28:29.620And I start trying to change the way that I'm working on my pitch to try to change the way people are perceiving how I'm talking to them.
00:28:38.320What often happens, and anybody's been in that experience, what you end up doing is you get yourself into a lot of trouble and you start fumbling.
00:28:46.720And before you know it, you lose track of where you are.
00:28:49.140Where if you could just be mindful and not have the story and just be present and say what you need to say in that moment in time, more often than not, it works out the way that it needs to work out.
00:29:32.820I do have a skill set that I can rely on.
00:29:35.020But I'm also going to argue that a lot of times that that kind of thinking as you proposed right now will get me into trouble.
00:29:44.160Because one of the things that's going to happen by having those thoughts that you just suggested, what that's going to do is going to make me fixate on that.
00:29:52.160And rather than avoiding the next strike, the fact that I'm fixating on not getting hit again and trying to avoid it, I lose touch with the present moment.
00:30:00.700And here's the thing, it doesn't matter if I'm in the future or past thinking, you're still going to hit me.
00:30:07.760And so the only real experience that I ever have is in the present moment.
00:30:12.640So this steps into another conversation about learning to trust your natural intelligence.
00:30:18.440I think there's also a perception out there a lot of times, and this is definitely in the Western world, if you're not thinking it, then it's not real.
00:30:25.620We've actually, even as men, I see it all the time, have neglected our natural intelligence, our primal nature.
00:30:37.940Actually, by getting yourself out of the way, getting your thinking mind out of the way, you'll be surprised what your body is actually able to do.
00:30:45.280And so what I'm making the argument for is actually a lot of times that narrative that typically is hinged either to a past experience or a future thing that you want to happen is the very thing that gets us into trouble.
00:31:00.840I'm not saying that there isn't a time where you don't want to set goals.
00:31:04.400Maybe what we should define here is, say, make a difference between a performance environment where you actually have to perform and you have to bring your skills to bear, whatever that may be, versus where it isn't a performance environment.
00:31:19.060So there's a time and place to have those thoughts about planning for the future or reflecting on the past so you don't keep making the same mistakes over and over.
00:31:27.680But if you're in the midst of a performance environment, for example, sparring, where you're just doing what you need to do to bring your best game and I'm doing what I'm doing to bring my best game, in that moment in time, past and future thinking can get us into trouble.
00:32:50.820And if you wait for perfection to happen, it will never happen.
00:32:54.980And so one of the kind of learning experiences there on the mat is learning that things don't have to be 100% perfect for you to make the move that you need to make.
00:33:04.040And also, just because you're feeling or thinking a certain way doesn't define the outcome of that experience.
00:33:10.580What often will define the outcome of that experience is the story that you attach to it.
00:33:17.460And if you can not have that story that holds you back, if you can learn to be mindful, which is to allow whatever arises to arouse.
00:33:50.840And I think what's difficult, if somebody is listening to this, the difficulty that people have with this is that it's counterintuitive.
00:33:58.100And that's not what we've been sold by society.
00:34:01.420I mean, most people, you know, this whole idea of the cult of optimism is a good example, you know, thinking positive all the time and so forth.
00:34:11.220But there's a lot of research to show that actually a lot of people who are overly optimistic also are the kinds of people that don't achieve anything because they're not willing to put the work in.
00:34:48.760I just have to move towards my goal and that gives you an embodied trust, which is far more beneficial than falling prey to the cult of optimism.
00:35:01.440But like I said, I think it's counterintuitive.
00:35:03.740I mean, a lot of times, like even when I'm dealing with people on the mat, they want to know what's the next move.
00:35:11.580You know, surely there must be a sequence that I can do that's going to basically put me in a position where I can beat this opponent.
00:35:17.640That's how a lot of martial arts styles have been set up as well.
00:35:21.040It's kind of this predefined step-by-step approach, right?
00:35:24.040As if somehow you can take a chaotic environment and break it down to its smallest components.
00:35:29.960And if you understand the smallest components, you have a sense of control.
00:35:33.440Well, anybody that knows anything about a chaotic environment knows that the more you try to predict it, the further you move away from the prediction.
00:35:46.680So, Rodney, let's say somebody is listening to this and they see the value of what you're talking about, that the artistic side of martial arts is something that can apply across every facet of life.
00:35:57.100How do you suggest a man get started down the path that you've headed down over the past several decades?
00:36:07.440There are a whole bunch of tools that I outlined that I learned through the martial art experience that I apply not only to martial arts but to my everyday life.
00:36:17.480My book is called Full Contact Living.
00:36:19.700It's essentially what I'm teaching there is how to take on the martial arts of everyday life.
00:36:23.860And so, I outlined six principles in the book that are embodied principles that anybody could use.
00:36:30.900And it's even though I wrote it from a martial artist perspective and what I'd learned, you don't need to be a martial artist to get something out of the book.
00:36:39.200I think anybody, any guy could read that book and gain a lot of valuable insight into things that they may have intuitively known but maybe not really have understood how to actually utilize that.
00:36:53.440And so, it goes into applying that beyond martial arts into everyday life, in your work, in your professional life.
00:37:00.760That's kind of what the book focuses on.
00:37:02.260So, I would say that that would be a good place to start.
00:37:05.000I mean, I wish that book was written a decade ago.
00:37:08.700It would have saved me a lot of headaches.
00:37:11.940That someone else wrote it and gave it to you, right?
00:38:01.600The rest of the book then goes into tools and strategies on that you can apply in this imperfection, in the world that just never seems to go your way, as it does for everybody, right?
00:38:12.900While you're making plans, life continues.
00:38:18.160And one of the first strategies I talk about is grounded thinking, which comes back to a lot of what we've been talking about, about being present.
00:38:26.200But when you don't know how to be present, it can be kind of difficult to harness that skill.
00:38:31.020So, one way that I teach is actually to use the thinking mind as a way to deceive the thinking mind.
00:38:37.660So, you use the thinking mind on purpose to get yourself back to the present moment.
00:38:41.620And I describe something what I call task-relevant cues, where you actually use cue words that you've designed.
00:38:48.040I give some, but you can design your own to get yourself back into the present moment.
00:38:52.400The next step goes into what I call attitude embodied.
00:38:56.040And so, what I talk about there is the way that you show up matters more than you think.
00:39:03.420And so, the thing that I focus on there, though, is that the way that you hold your body, the way that you hold your posture, not only changes your physiology, and by the mere fact that it changes your physiology, will change the way that you think about yourself.
00:39:18.800So, if we talk about moving into the world more confident, as simple as it sounds, presenting a more confident position, the way that you hold your body, changes your physiology.
00:39:30.380This is not me just saying this, you know, the scientists caught up with this, and they know that the way that you hold your body does change your physiology.
00:39:37.100They've done experiments where, for example, clenching your fist for roughly 30 seconds, they found that it boosts a person's confidence.
00:39:44.940So, there is the metaphor of the body, the way that you use your body, changes your physiology, which changes the way that you think about yourself.
00:41:24.620If you can't get that right, then you're never going to get the big things right.
00:41:28.000This has been just an incredible conversation.
00:41:31.260We're winding down on time, and so I've got a couple additional questions I want to ask you.
00:41:34.640And the first question is, what does it mean to be a man?
00:41:37.900I think what it is to be a man is to accept this warrior energy as a natural part of who we are.
00:41:46.200It's the thing that allowed us to be successful in our lives, but it's also the thing that was there since the beginning of time.
00:41:54.100And so acknowledging it and honoring it and working with it productively so that it becomes a positive force in your life is a powerful thing to do.
00:42:02.700And I think all men should do that more.
00:43:22.320Mr. Rodney King giving us a glimpse into how to use martial arts as a tool to achieve mindfulness and mastery in our lives.
00:43:29.780Now, again, a reminder, head over to orderofman.com slash ironcouncil so you can get all the details on our elite master of mind.
00:43:36.360You will want to be part of that if you're ready to take your life to the next level,
00:43:39.880if you're ready to build some solid relationships with other men and have more accountability so you can actually get more done in your life.
00:43:46.900And remember, also, our weekly giveaway by our friends at Service Gear.
00:43:49.780Head to orderofman.com slash SRVS Gear giveaway to enter that.
00:43:55.400This will be a weekly giveaway, as you know, so make sure you stay tuned for other giveaways that we'll be doing.
00:43:59.300And then the last thing, if you want some additional resources for this show, head to orderofman.com slash 048 and you can join in the conversation we're having about masculinity in our Facebook group, which is facebook.com slash groups slash orderofman.
00:44:12.040Guys, I look forward to talking with you next week, but until then, take action and become the man you were meant to be.
00:44:17.340Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.
00:44:20.340You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.
00:44:24.360We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.