Order of Man


OoM 059： An Insider's Look Into Approaching Women with Sarah Jones


Episode Stats

Misogynist Sentences

22

Hate Speech Sentences

16


Summary

Sarah Jones is the founder of Introverted Alpha, a company that helps smart, introverted men attract women naturally. She's been featured in Cosmo, Business Insider, Huffington Post, Ask Men, and a whole lot more. But Sarah is best known for helping men use their natural strengths to attract women without having to use any tricks or be someone they're not.


Transcript

00:00:00.160 Approaching an attractive woman. Some of us cringe at the thought of having to put ourselves out there like that,
00:00:05.160 but my guest today and the very first woman to be on the Order of Man podcast
00:00:09.440 shares with us how we can approach women naturally by being more of ourselves.
00:00:13.760 She's also going to share with us some of her insider secrets,
00:00:16.340 what women are truly looking for in a man, and how you can be more comfortable around the opposite sex.
00:00:21.920 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest.
00:00:24.800 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
00:00:27.460 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.
00:00:32.220 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.
00:00:37.220 This is your life. This is who you are.
00:00:39.760 This is who you will become at the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
00:00:46.980 Men, what's going on today? My name is Ryan Michler, and I am the host and founder of Order of Man.
00:00:51.880 Now, if you're new to this show, you may be asking yourself what we're all about here at Order of Man.
00:00:55.800 Again, we're all about helping you, the men of the world, live more manfully,
00:01:00.420 and that means we're helping you provide for and protect your loved ones
00:01:04.000 and preside with clarity in your home and your business and your community.
00:01:08.000 Essentially, we're helping you become the man that you were meant to be.
00:01:12.080 Now, on that note, you can take this a step further beyond just listening to this podcast
00:01:16.520 by getting involved with an elite group of men inside of our mastermind, the Iron Council.
00:01:22.140 Our goal is to challenge you. It's to test you. It's to push you.
00:01:25.360 It's to help you step outside of your comfort zone and be a better man.
00:01:29.020 Now, a lot of guys will tell me they feel stuck, and this is exactly where you go to get yourself unstuck.
00:01:34.880 Deeper connections with your wife or girlfriend, connections with your kids, stronger business owner,
00:01:38.780 more health, better wealth, you name it.
00:01:41.800 If you feel like you're at a plateau in your life, it's time to mix things up a bit,
00:01:46.460 and you can do that inside the Iron Council.
00:01:48.800 So get all the details at orderofman.com slash Iron Council.
00:01:52.300 Now, before I get any further, I want to let you know that you need to stick around to the end of the show today.
00:01:57.560 Stick around to the end of the show.
00:01:58.840 I've got a huge announcement, probably the biggest guest that I've had on the podcast to date,
00:02:04.780 a man that I know 100% of you are going to want to hear from.
00:02:08.980 So stick around. I'll make that announcement towards the end of the show.
00:02:11.780 Now, we've got a great one lined up for you today.
00:02:13.720 My guest is an incredible resource of information when it comes to connecting with women.
00:02:17.820 But in addition to that, she is a woman herself,
00:02:21.120 which means that we're going to get some insight that you have not yet heard on Order of Man.
00:02:26.380 But before I introduce you to my guest, remember you can find all the links and resources at orderofman.com slash 059.
00:02:32.640 And as always, join in the conversation we're having now with over 3,100 men in our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash orderofman.
00:02:41.320 Now, Sarah Jones, my guest today, is the founder of Introverted Alpha.
00:02:45.160 Her goal is to help smart, introverted men attract women naturally.
00:02:49.160 She's been featured in Cosmo, Business Insider, Huffington Post, Ask Men, Men's Health, and a whole lot more.
00:02:54.440 But Sarah is best known for helping men use their natural strengths to attract women without having to use any tricks or be someone they're not.
00:03:03.500 She's going to get into that today and so much more.
00:03:07.400 Sarah, thanks for joining me on the show. I'm glad you're here today.
00:03:09.640 Thanks so much, Ryan. I'm excited to be here.
00:03:12.380 So before we hit record, I told you that you are the first woman to be interviewed on the Order of Man podcast.
00:03:18.440 How does that feel?
00:03:20.040 I love it. I love it.
00:03:21.860 I didn't even notice when I was looking at your site.
00:03:23.880 I was like, oh, these are such good podcasts.
00:03:26.380 Oh, I love all of it.
00:03:27.340 And I didn't even notice that there were no women because I feel so at home among men.
00:03:31.600 So I love it.
00:03:32.540 I'm happy and honored.
00:03:34.180 Well, we are honored to have you on the show.
00:03:36.300 Why you talk about being obviously one of the very few women in the industry,
00:03:40.840 which is helping men become a little bit more comfortable around women.
00:03:45.000 And so why did you decide to take this route and what is it that appeals to the work that you're doing now?
00:03:52.000 Well, at this point, I feel so immersed in it that it's like, oh, remembering back to the beginning.
00:03:56.940 So I've always been around more thoughtful and introverted, linear logical men in my life.
00:04:05.020 Software engineering is a big theme.
00:04:07.180 My boyfriend is a software engineer.
00:04:08.820 My dad, like everybody is an engineer in my life.
00:04:13.620 So I've always loved that kind of man, just more introspective and logical.
00:04:19.120 And then I started pursuing coaching because I really knew about myself that the most exciting and fun thing for me
00:04:28.640 was to help other people make a change that they wanted to make.
00:04:32.140 And so I went to coaching school and there I learned you have to find a niche and you have, you know,
00:04:39.120 that's the language that they use.
00:04:40.140 You have to find a niche and it just felt like so overwhelming.
00:04:42.920 Well, what do I do?
00:04:43.580 But I was like, you know, I'm going to figure this out.
00:04:45.960 And at the time, my own dating life was going amazing.
00:04:49.620 For the first time, I was like 25 or 26.
00:04:53.600 And I mean, it just really, it wasn't a lot happening before then.
00:04:57.320 And I was either totally single and zero like celibate, seeing like nothing happening or in a long-term relationship
00:05:04.040 that I just kind of like fell into.
00:05:05.280 And that happened twice.
00:05:06.720 All of a sudden, I was dating and having so much fun and meeting the most beautiful men like inside and out.
00:05:12.440 Just really, absolutely amazing men.
00:05:16.220 And I was like, oh my God, other women are not having this experience.
00:05:19.320 Let me teach them how.
00:05:20.400 But I was in a sales training call with a guy and we were just like practicing sales calls.
00:05:28.140 And then it got into coaching like all of my conversations did back then when I was in coaching school.
00:05:32.320 Like I coached everybody, whether they wanted it or not, unfortunately.
00:05:37.000 Some unsolicited coaching going on there, huh?
00:05:39.080 There was a lot of unsolicited coaching.
00:05:41.760 And he said, you know, this conversation is just, the dynamic is so good.
00:05:47.160 Have you thought about coaching men?
00:05:48.640 And I think you would be so good at it.
00:05:50.760 And I was like, you know, I kind of thought of it, but I didn't really think that was like something I could do.
00:05:55.360 I don't know why.
00:05:56.000 I guess it's just because I hadn't seen other people doing it.
00:05:58.220 But that's how it started.
00:05:59.440 Like I knew I wanted to coach in the dating subject matter.
00:06:02.620 And I really like the dynamic of coaching men, especially in that area, like coaching another woman,
00:06:08.740 how to have a great dating life when you're a woman who already does.
00:06:11.820 It's like, you know, like not competition isn't the right word, but like, you know,
00:06:16.100 a little bit of that going on of like comparison or like something kind of bad feeling.
00:06:20.460 And it just, it can't really fully be avoided.
00:06:23.180 It's just like always kind of there.
00:06:24.660 I mean, even if it's not mostly there, it's just a little bit of a thing.
00:06:28.720 Whereas with men, that's not happening at all.
00:06:30.880 It's like a totally awesome dynamic.
00:06:34.100 It's very refreshing.
00:06:34.920 So that's how I, that's how I came into this.
00:06:38.120 And then I was working for another dating coaching company as their head coach.
00:06:44.420 I was working with Adam Galad, who I love so much to this day.
00:06:49.800 Of course, he's a good friend.
00:06:51.180 And I was working for him.
00:06:53.040 And I found that the guys I did best with were these introverted guys.
00:06:56.620 And that's when I kind of made all those connections.
00:06:58.060 Like, oh, well, that's the men I've always known and loved.
00:07:00.520 Sure, right.
00:07:00.960 It kind of came around full circle.
00:07:02.780 It's interesting how we find our path.
00:07:04.600 And now you're on this path.
00:07:05.820 And the name of your brand is Introverted Alpha, which is a bit of an oxymoron.
00:07:09.580 So explain to me how somebody, a man who is introverted and who would describe himself
00:07:14.840 as that can actually be an alpha.
00:07:17.580 Oh, yeah.
00:07:18.260 Yeah, I love it.
00:07:19.960 So to me, alpha means benevolent badass, which is another, I'm explaining an oxymoron with
00:07:27.720 another oxymoron.
00:07:28.360 Yeah, right, right.
00:07:29.060 Although, of course, I don't feel that either of them are truly oxymoron.
00:07:31.640 So what I mean by benevolent badass is benevolent is that you care for other people, you know,
00:07:37.820 and that you, and it's, and the root words of benevolent is, is good and power.
00:07:44.020 So in Latin, um, bene means good.
00:07:47.260 And then the voleo part means power.
00:07:50.540 So using your power for good, which implies that you're powerful.
00:07:53.720 So it's all kind of good implications in the word benevolent.
00:07:56.560 It's really great for men.
00:07:57.580 And then badass is to me, that just means, you know, what you want and you go make it
00:08:03.060 happen.
00:08:03.440 Like no excuses, no bullshit.
00:08:05.340 You just go do it.
00:08:06.660 And that's really sexy.
00:08:08.160 And then you put that together with benevolent.
00:08:10.320 And what it means is that when you go after what you want, it benefits everybody, you know,
00:08:14.580 it's just like a really good thing.
00:08:16.480 And so that, that's how I define alpha.
00:08:19.840 And anyone can be that, you know, extroverts and introverts can have that focus and that
00:08:26.640 care.
00:08:27.420 And then I especially love how introverts express that because they're so thoughtful and
00:08:32.880 more introspective, of course.
00:08:35.380 So they really, um, they're just really beautiful in their level of integrity and honesty.
00:08:42.000 Like they really check themselves.
00:08:43.300 You know, they really just, they're, they're so thoughtful that they don't really let things
00:08:48.100 slip through the cracks.
00:08:48.780 They're very analytical.
00:08:50.340 And I find that to be just absolutely endearing and also helpful and really being that alpha
00:08:56.900 man that they enjoy being in, that they take pride in being.
00:09:00.440 That makes sense.
00:09:01.200 And I think there's this big misconception too, that you are either the alpha or either
00:09:05.560 the introvert that you can't be both or that you can't be good and be a badass, like you
00:09:10.460 said before.
00:09:11.080 So I really liked that you bring that together.
00:09:13.200 Here's the question I have for you, because I think introvert is a word that gets tossed around
00:09:17.540 a lot.
00:09:17.860 And a lot of the times I see it from my standpoint as an excuse for guys to come up with so that
00:09:24.140 they don't have to put themselves outside of their comfort zone or they don't have to
00:09:28.180 approach a beautiful woman because they're quote unquote, an introvert.
00:09:31.500 And I'm sure there's a line between actually being an introvert and then just being maybe
00:09:35.800 a little fearful or having some anxiety about approaching a woman.
00:09:39.260 Yeah.
00:09:39.700 If anybody's saying that, you better send them over to me so I can kick their butt.
00:09:42.660 That's not true.
00:09:44.300 Yeah, sure.
00:09:45.900 So there's a difference between shyness and introversion.
00:09:50.620 There's a vast difference.
00:09:51.840 You almost can't even compare the two, even though most people kind of conflated into the
00:09:56.600 same term.
00:09:57.440 Right.
00:09:57.660 So an introvert means that you get your sense of peace and refreshment and rejuvenation from
00:10:05.320 being chill, being alone or with a few people, very reflective.
00:10:10.000 Your thoughts are more turned inwards.
00:10:12.020 It's just kind of like a very chill way of being compared to life as a party, gregarious,
00:10:18.260 where the focus is very outward.
00:10:20.020 What's next, what's next, very action packed.
00:10:23.380 So, you know, introverts maybe are a little bit slower pace and which is really, that can
00:10:30.000 be very sexy because a lot of what women want, especially in touch, is more slow and smooth
00:10:36.060 rather than just like crazy firework energy all the time, you know?
00:10:39.300 So it's actually a sexy thing.
00:10:41.900 And then shyness is completely different.
00:10:44.520 It's not about personality.
00:10:45.960 It's about social skill, social fluency.
00:10:48.900 So I like to say social fluency is a skill, not a personality.
00:10:53.920 Anyone can be socially fluent, introvert or extrovert or anywhere in between.
00:10:59.260 So shyness is what I think these guys are telling you.
00:11:03.440 And that's where the danger of conflating these terms comes from.
00:11:06.820 They can't just say, oh, well, I'm shy, so I guess I can't because that does sound a
00:11:10.260 little shitty.
00:11:10.740 It's like, we'll just, you know, learn some skills.
00:11:13.060 But they didn't just say, oh, I'm just introverted, so I can't.
00:11:16.140 No.
00:11:16.540 You can be introverted and still just beautifully and naturally approach women.
00:11:22.860 Like, that's what my clients do.
00:11:24.340 And it's gorgeous to watch.
00:11:25.600 And even better, a lot of women approach them because they're so mysterious and they are just
00:11:32.080 so confident and they're just so appealing that literally women move closer to them.
00:11:37.020 They make it super easy for them at first when they're first learning to get their numbers.
00:11:43.180 Like, the women really like them.
00:11:45.020 And they're like, damn it.
00:11:46.340 How do I help this guy help me?
00:11:49.220 Like, how do I make it easy for him?
00:11:50.200 Oh, that's interesting.
00:11:50.940 So, yeah, it may be a little bit of a learning curve to just feel more comfortable because
00:11:57.220 a lot of guys that are more introverted, it takes them longer to feel comfortable with
00:12:00.560 a woman.
00:12:01.000 And it's like, how can I kiss her if I don't even know who she is?
00:12:04.800 And the thing is, it's like, it's not black and white.
00:12:06.980 You can find a way to get to know her in a pace that feels good for you.
00:12:11.960 That's also not like a snail's pace.
00:12:14.180 There's a way to do that.
00:12:15.500 So, how does a guy figure this out for himself?
00:12:18.100 Because I imagine, especially in the pickup scene, which I'm sure a lot of people just
00:12:21.820 lump you into that category, is that a lot of guys will try to game the system.
00:12:26.920 Like, I'm going to try to be an introvert for Sarah because that's what she gets excited
00:12:30.560 about.
00:12:30.960 Or I'm going to try to be the alpha because that's what this woman happens to respond
00:12:35.140 to.
00:12:35.680 So, where's the line between being more of what a woman wants and then just being yourself?
00:12:42.040 Oh, my God.
00:12:42.920 But there's so many things I want to say about what you just said.
00:12:47.740 Okay.
00:12:48.420 So, the thing that a woman wants more than anything in a man is for him to really enjoy
00:12:56.240 being in his own skin.
00:12:58.660 And Chris Shepard, I quote him to the end of the earth.
00:13:02.540 Like, I probably share this quote like every day because I love it so much.
00:13:04.900 He says that, and this is so true, for a woman, attraction is the feeling of being desired
00:13:12.480 by a powerful man.
00:13:14.860 Okay?
00:13:15.320 So, he mentions that for some women who are just, you know, probably not the kind of women
00:13:21.120 that my guys are attracted to, power like means money or something.
00:13:25.260 You know what I mean?
00:13:25.800 Like very shallow.
00:13:26.480 But for the kinds of women that my guys want to attract and that your guys too, like this
00:13:31.980 is why I love your show because it just sounds like such a great group of guys here.
00:13:36.240 You know, you want to attract women that are warm and smart and loving and self-respecting.
00:13:42.840 And so, you know, in order to do that, that what power means there is that you feel really
00:13:48.840 good in your own skin.
00:13:50.480 You love yourself and you love women.
00:13:52.620 You just love and that's where that benevolence comes in.
00:13:57.120 And so, the number one most important thing, and I've heard you talk about this before,
00:14:01.500 Ryan, is starting with what your deepest values are, which is a word that's so often used,
00:14:09.160 but it's used a lot often for a reason because it's so important.
00:14:12.780 Right, right.
00:14:13.240 There's truth to cliches that we hear for sure.
00:14:15.220 It sure is because it helps you get a strong sense of yourself.
00:14:18.940 It's like, okay, I know that this is important to me.
00:14:22.040 It's important to me to know what I want and go after it.
00:14:25.640 It's important to me to be playful and have fun, whatever.
00:14:29.600 You know, for every guy, it's different.
00:14:31.180 But like, what's important to you?
00:14:32.520 And then you be that.
00:14:34.160 And then you let the chips fall where they may.
00:14:36.920 So, what happens is when you're that way.
00:14:39.820 So, first is being who you love being, enjoying the hell out of being you is something I say
00:14:43.800 also every day.
00:14:45.060 I say a lot of things every day.
00:14:46.720 You do.
00:14:47.120 You have a long day for all the things.
00:14:48.860 I have a long day for all the things I say every day.
00:14:51.180 So, enjoy the hell out of being you.
00:14:54.380 Okay.
00:14:54.720 That's very sexy when you do that.
00:14:56.560 And it's great news because it's so fun.
00:14:58.380 The enjoyment is like in there.
00:15:00.040 And when you're enjoying being you, you're going to be most attracted to the women that
00:15:05.680 are a great fit for you anyway.
00:15:09.000 And those women are going to naturally be attracted to the way that you are.
00:15:12.760 Okay.
00:15:13.060 So, it's not this random disjointed of like, oh my God, I have – because like what you
00:15:17.840 just described, Ryan, is like imagining a guy walking into a bar or a party or something.
00:15:22.600 And he is walking in there.
00:15:23.960 He has no idea who the hell he is about.
00:15:27.920 He's just trying to creepily – it's very creepy just to match somebody else rather than
00:15:33.540 like, well, who are you?
00:15:34.560 Like you're your own person.
00:15:35.920 If you're giving her all this weight that she's not only her own person but you have
00:15:40.700 to match her, that's just a grossly disproportionate power dynamic.
00:15:46.240 She has so much power that she gets to be herself and tell you.
00:15:49.760 She's not even trying to tell you.
00:15:50.980 She's just trying to have a chill connection.
00:15:53.860 But it takes you knowing who you are in order for that to even happen.
00:15:57.380 It's really funny you talk about this because a common theme that I've heard from the guys
00:16:01.200 that I'm working with is that some of the passion within their relationships is gone.
00:16:06.580 And my knee-jerk reaction in something like that is that, of course, it's gone.
00:16:11.000 You were relying on this woman to supply all of the energy and resources in the relationship
00:16:16.080 emotionally and mentally.
00:16:17.440 And now you not only drained your energy but you also drained hers and she has no passion,
00:16:23.400 no spark left.
00:16:24.140 So, you've got to bring something to the relationship.
00:16:26.120 Yeah, definitely.
00:16:27.840 You've got to bring something in.
00:16:29.740 And to guys' credit, I think that with the recent movements over the past decades, which
00:16:35.780 have been awesome, that women are empowered and powerful.
00:16:39.480 Thank God.
00:16:40.600 Of course, right.
00:16:41.400 Just watching the Mad Men shows and how awfully the women were treated in the office.
00:16:45.960 It just makes me so mad.
00:16:47.100 So, I'm so glad.
00:16:48.360 Thank God we've done that.
00:16:49.320 But one side effect that I would love to see ironed out next and that, you know, we're
00:16:55.120 a part of ironing out is helping men be like, okay, well, I'm going to obviously be super
00:16:59.680 respectful.
00:17:00.200 And all the guys I work with, like, they're nothing but sweet.
00:17:03.200 Like, they want to respect women.
00:17:04.460 They're not assholes.
00:17:05.320 That's like their worst fear.
00:17:06.120 But I can respect women and respect myself and bring that, like, charge and assertiveness
00:17:13.680 and energy of being a man into – because that's something that women really want and
00:17:21.600 is to feel a man being, like, his manly self.
00:17:25.980 So, you know, being more assertive.
00:17:28.640 And like I said, like, to be compassionate to guys who feel like, oh, is that okay or
00:17:36.440 I don't even know how to do that.
00:17:38.000 Well, it's – in some ways, it's just not been – it's not been the focus.
00:17:43.340 Like, it's – that's something that's next to catch up to where we are.
00:17:45.980 Now we respect women.
00:17:47.060 Awesome.
00:17:47.480 Like, let's continue respecting them more and more.
00:17:49.220 I mean, not everybody respects all women, but it's a good direction that's happening.
00:17:52.180 And now, like, let's respect men, too, like, not just men for, you know, like, as people,
00:17:59.080 but men is what men uniquely bring to the table.
00:18:01.940 It's such a beautiful thing.
00:18:03.860 And, you know, I think also women are learning how, okay, well, I am glad that I – that
00:18:11.360 I'm respected by men.
00:18:12.380 I respect myself.
00:18:13.040 But, like, how do I also respect what men uniquely bring?
00:18:16.000 I would love for women to learn that more, too.
00:18:17.660 But either way, when a woman is already warm and loving and smart, that's what she's going
00:18:23.600 to want.
00:18:24.040 She's going to want for a man to enjoy the hell out of being himself and be aware of
00:18:29.500 himself and aware of his connection with her and just enjoy.
00:18:35.100 Like, enjoyment is – it does so much.
00:18:37.820 It takes away so much yucky stuff just to literally enjoy.
00:18:41.840 And this makes sense because I think there's a huge trend in society, which is unfortunate,
00:18:45.640 that men and women are the same.
00:18:47.660 And I think we're getting the conversation of the same versus equal and the value that
00:18:51.860 we each bring to the table.
00:18:53.020 And we're getting those phrases mixed up because we are equally important, but we are
00:18:57.580 not the same.
00:18:58.380 So I really value when you talk about the unique qualities that a man and woman bring
00:19:03.020 to the table.
00:19:03.740 I look at, for example, my wife.
00:19:05.500 She's fiercely independent and she can handle everything that she needs to handle on her
00:19:08.780 own.
00:19:09.400 She doesn't need me in her life.
00:19:11.320 And I have those same qualities.
00:19:13.680 But together, we're actually stronger because we're bringing uniquely something different
00:19:17.680 to the table.
00:19:18.580 Oh, yeah.
00:19:19.320 And it's also – you get to want to be together.
00:19:23.540 Like, you know, years ago, you kind of needed each other just to make the normal life.
00:19:29.460 You know, men earned the money and women took care of the house and the kids or whatever.
00:19:32.660 And it was just very specific.
00:19:34.300 So you just kind of needed the structure.
00:19:36.120 But now, it's really just, like, what you want to do.
00:19:40.360 And men can make money in the house and women can run the house.
00:19:44.360 But it's much more by choice.
00:19:46.440 The feeling behind it now is that we're choosing this life together.
00:19:50.660 That just elevates everything, too.
00:19:52.360 It's like, then there's no resentment.
00:19:53.840 It's like, I'm choosing to be with you because I enjoy what you bring to my life.
00:19:57.820 I enjoy being with you.
00:20:00.240 And it can be really beautiful when that's how people feel in their relationship.
00:20:04.760 Yeah, it sounds like a lot of what you're talking about.
00:20:07.900 And we – this is a reoccurring theme on our show is that we need to figure out as men a way to take care of ourselves first.
00:20:15.700 And I know that might sound selfish.
00:20:17.300 But when we do that, then we're better able to serve not only the women in our lives but also in our businesses and in our communities.
00:20:24.780 And I think there's so many people out there, companies included, that are trying to teach guys what's the best pickup line and when do you say it?
00:20:32.720 And when do you ask for the date or when do you ask for the phone number or when do you have sex for or whatever when all they really should be focused on is be yourself, be uniquely yourself, and let that be enough.
00:20:44.360 Exactly.
00:20:45.060 Because that's bringing the power dynamic back into focus.
00:20:48.460 Like, you know, one thing that my clients are always like, oh, my God, really?
00:20:53.640 So this is, like, really liberating for any guys that are dating.
00:20:56.180 If they see a woman who, you know, just seems really beautiful and immediately they're like, oh, I know that she's attractive.
00:21:04.220 I know I'm attracted to her.
00:21:06.240 But I don't know if I'm attractive and I don't know if she's attractive to me.
00:21:09.380 That's very disempowering.
00:21:10.680 It's a very common thought pattern.
00:21:12.080 What I encourage them to say instead is she seems to be attractive because they don't know yet.
00:21:17.560 They're probably not even that close to her yet in the room.
00:21:19.220 They haven't really talked to her.
00:21:20.140 I don't know.
00:21:20.980 She may not be.
00:21:22.380 And I seem to be attracted to her because they don't know if they're attracted to her or not.
00:21:25.980 They just saw her a second ago.
00:21:27.460 But I know that I'm attractive because they know who they are.
00:21:31.280 They've done the work to know that they're attractive.
00:21:33.740 And so let's go see if she's attractive to me.
00:21:35.920 And if I'm, you know, let's go find out.
00:21:38.480 Let's go find out.
00:21:40.120 So that's the frame.
00:21:41.140 She seems attractive.
00:21:42.360 I know I am.
00:21:43.400 And let's go see if there's a connection.
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00:22:53.880 Now, back to my interview with Sarah.
00:22:55.380 And that takes a lot of the pressure off of whatever it is because you're not trying to accomplish.
00:23:01.340 There isn't an end game.
00:23:02.340 There's, hey, let's just figure this out.
00:23:03.640 If there's something here, great.
00:23:04.700 If not, great.
00:23:05.740 Let's move on.
00:23:06.480 Exactly.
00:23:06.980 That's the best you can really do when it comes to these things because there's so many moving parts to it.
00:23:12.340 There's so many things that even occur subconsciously and unintentionally, like just in how we come across and how we perceive the other person with our sixth sense and all this stuff.
00:23:21.220 So that's the most confident and chill way that you can do it.
00:23:25.640 It's just like, well, let's just go find out.
00:23:27.780 And then that's fun.
00:23:29.600 It's playful.
00:23:30.360 It's powerful.
00:23:31.060 It's bold, which really suits men, you know, especially if they're used to kind of feeling more passive.
00:23:37.120 And that's another difference.
00:23:37.940 It's like introverts are not inherently passive.
00:23:40.940 Passivity is part of shyness.
00:23:43.080 This is a sales concept.
00:23:44.820 And obviously this makes sense in this context too because a lot of this is just psychology, human psychology.
00:23:49.020 But I think when a guy, whether he's in a formal sales meeting or trying to meet a woman, that the opposite sex or a client can feel the desperation, can feel that you want something out of this.
00:24:04.400 But when you don't actually need it, that actually puts you in the position of power, which makes you more attractive as a sales representative.
00:24:12.700 Or in this case, it sounds like a man that potentially could be somebody to date or spend some time with romantically.
00:24:19.860 Absolutely.
00:24:20.660 I was actually just on a sales training call yesterday.
00:24:23.880 And he was talking about how the thing that helps eliminate all creepiness in sales calls.
00:24:32.020 And he talked about dating.
00:24:33.680 Because I talk about business all the time too.
00:24:35.940 It's just all very similar.
00:24:36.880 It's just so similar.
00:24:37.480 He says the one thing that eliminates that is having standards.
00:24:42.980 You have to have standards.
00:24:44.320 If the person you're talking to feels like you don't have any standards, that is so gross.
00:24:48.520 That's just so creepy.
00:24:49.680 So in a sales call, if all you want is a sale, you don't care.
00:24:53.180 Like that's all.
00:24:53.780 You just want their money.
00:24:55.360 Okay.
00:24:55.880 Or on a date, you know, that's what analogy he used was if a woman's on a date and she just feels like, oh my God, he just is saying whatever he can to have sex with me.
00:25:04.560 That's obviously creepy because he doesn't have any standards, you know?
00:25:07.580 Right, right.
00:25:08.220 So when you have standards, then it really elevates you.
00:25:11.580 So part of his process, Russ Ruffino's process for sales calls is after he's found out what the person wants and needs, he gets a situation.
00:25:22.820 Then he goes through his written list of standards and just makes sure that this potential client meets those standards.
00:25:30.440 Sure.
00:25:31.020 Isn't that great?
00:25:31.560 So it's the same kind of thing, like when a man is talking to a woman, he has standards in his mind of what he's going to invest time in.
00:25:40.220 Just because even like just if she looks good, that doesn't mean that he's going to actually want to spend time with her.
00:25:46.840 And that's so important to realize.
00:25:49.480 And it makes them feel good.
00:25:51.060 It makes them feel like badasses to realize, you know what?
00:25:53.140 Like, no matter what, like I have these standards, she needs to be honest, she needs to have her shit together, she needs to be kind and warm and smart and interesting to talk to.
00:26:04.460 And so when they keep those standards in mind, when they go talk to her, like, oh, let's go find out.
00:26:12.220 Let's go find out if she meets my standards and let's go find out if I meet her specific ones, even though I know, even though I have worked on myself to the point that, like, I'm awesome, you know, and even we're all a work in progress in terms of our personal development.
00:26:26.820 We can, I just, I think, especially in personal development, and I do this too, it's like, okay, well, yes, I'm still working on all these things, but I'm also awesome now.
00:26:36.140 And I can get the job done now, even without being like perfect or whatever.
00:26:40.760 So it's not about reaching perfection.
00:26:42.720 It's just about having something to bring to the table and then seeing what she has to bring and seeing if that feels good for both of you.
00:26:49.740 This is a good way to look at it because I imagine this helps guys deal with and overcome, quote unquote, rejection, because it's not necessarily rejection of you.
00:26:58.320 It's just the fact that her standards and your standards didn't jive.
00:27:01.540 And the next woman, it might jive perfectly, but it doesn't say anything negative about you.
00:27:06.220 It's just that it didn't happen to work together.
00:27:08.540 Exactly.
00:27:09.200 Actually, my latest blog post was about how to overcome the fear of rejection.
00:27:12.980 So it's funny that you mentioned that.
00:27:14.120 And the middle point in that post is, is to retire the quote unquote belief in rejection because rejection.
00:27:22.760 So here's the thing.
00:27:24.020 Rejection can, is only valid when it has all of the knowledge necessary to make that decision.
00:27:30.980 So only person who can reject a person is himself.
00:27:34.440 So when a woman, even if a woman isn't like receptive, she's, and even if a man perceives it as a rejection,
00:27:41.060 it's just, even if it is, it's only a rejection of her idea of him.
00:27:45.260 And more often than not, just like you said, it's not even that it's, it's really not even personal.
00:27:50.320 So the only rejection that can even happen for him comes from himself.
00:27:54.700 Right.
00:27:55.220 Now I want to go back to standards because is there ever a point where a man may set his standards too high or even unrealistic?
00:28:03.200 Yeah, I think, I think so, because I think it really requires self-awareness to set proper standards.
00:28:09.420 And I think men can feel it too.
00:28:12.020 If their standards are way beyond what they bring to the table, they just feel a little shaky.
00:28:17.620 Like, where's the earth under my feet that I want all of this.
00:28:21.720 But like, you know, I want like a model body on a woman, but I am 30 pounds overweight.
00:28:29.280 Well, let's just think about that for a minute.
00:28:31.040 I mean, not everything has to do with looks.
00:28:32.400 It has to do with how you take care of yourself and how you think about yourself and how you treat yourself.
00:28:37.820 That's a lifestyle in terms of what you invest in to make yourself appealing and not only appealing to other people, appealing to yourself.
00:28:46.400 So when a man really finds out, okay, well, this is what I'm about.
00:28:51.040 And, and so, and this is who I enjoy being.
00:28:53.380 So let me see who would be a great match for that, that I would have a lot of fun with and starting with who they are rather than starting with like this idea of this quintessential woman in their head.
00:29:03.800 They start with themselves and then they see, well, what would be a really great match for me?
00:29:08.940 So let's, Sarah, let's go to physical appearance, because I think a lot of the times people will downplay the importance of physical appearance.
00:29:16.580 And in all reality, women and men are attracted to people who are physically appealing to them.
00:29:21.400 Yeah.
00:29:22.380 And so why is there this misconception or this focus of, or, or that it shouldn't be the only focus or it shouldn't even be a factor when in all reality it really is.
00:29:33.460 It really is.
00:29:34.720 Well, I like to make a very hard distinction within the realm of physical looks.
00:29:40.140 One part is just physical features, like somebody's height.
00:29:44.900 Okay.
00:29:45.620 Or like the shape of their nose or something.
00:29:47.940 Well, this is just how it is.
00:29:49.680 That's how it is.
00:29:50.700 So we don't want to like make excuses.
00:29:52.600 We're like, well, I'm only five, six, so I guess I can't attract them or whatever.
00:29:55.600 Well, you know, you, you, you can fucking find a way, you know what I mean?
00:29:58.860 Let's not lean on that.
00:30:00.080 But at the same time, the other thing is all within our control.
00:30:05.340 Okay.
00:30:05.940 So how we dress, how we present ourselves, what we eat, how we sleep, how we exercise, how we take care of ourselves, how we groom ourselves, um, how we present ourselves, how we hold our bodies, how we talk and move in our bodies.
00:30:19.740 I mean, these are a hundred percent within our control and it's honestly most of what makes a person attractive or not.
00:30:27.460 No, that makes total sense.
00:30:29.180 And I, and I always look at this as, as the way that you do one thing is the way you do everything.
00:30:33.060 So if you're out of shape, for example, it can probably, I don't want to say safely assumed, but I would jump to the conclusion that if you don't care about your body, that there's probably some areas of life, other areas of your life that you really don't care about as well.
00:30:47.720 Exactly. And that's why being in shape is so sexy because it just implies so much, so many good things. It implies that you have determination. It implies that you can really be there. Be, it even applies emotional presence, you know, with a woman.
00:31:04.020 Like it implies so many things. I mean, that's not always what it ends up being, but it does give that nice impression. And then people can figure out what, where it actually applies to as they go.
00:31:14.100 But it, it really does how we present ourselves as a lot. I like to play a little, a little game when I'm out seeing different people. Like I just like to imagine someone that I see being way more attractive, but with the same, even like with their same body shape and their same, um, their same features, but just the way, how they dress and how they hold themselves and how happy they are.
00:31:37.700 And then imagining them being way less attractive, same thing, same body, same everything, just how they feel and how they present themselves. It is amazing how different it can be when you just kind of imagine it just for fun. We have so much leeway in how we present ourselves and that it's just really wild. There's a lot of, we have a lot of control over that.
00:32:02.840 Okay. I want to go to a part of this conversation that, so I've been out of the dating scene for just about 12 years, but I think this is just as applicable. Me being married for 12 years, as it is for a guy who is dating women and having that type of social life mixed signals. All right. I think that guys get this all the time is that it's very difficult for us to understand what a woman is thinking.
00:32:29.140 Uh, we might be seeing something or feeling something and thinking something else or feeling something one minute and completely off or opposite the next minute. Talk to me a little bit about how a guy reads the signals that a woman puts out.
00:32:44.740 That's a great question. I actually just had a client the other day say he was reading me a text that he got from a woman and he was like, well, she asked me how I was doing and what was going on. So I just told her what I was doing and what was going on. I was like, no.
00:32:59.140 She was asking you to invite her on a date. Damn it. She could have been saying that word for word. That's what her text said, even though that's not the words of her text.
00:33:07.540 And he probably said back, well, why didn't she just say that?
00:33:10.460 Yeah, exactly. Right. It's like, wait, that's what she was saying. Why'd she say something totally different?
00:33:15.900 Right, right. This is what I'm talking about.
00:33:18.020 I definitely feel it. So I think part of what can be empowering here is just a basic knowledge and ideally advanced knowledge. There's so many books. One thing I love is the five love languages.
00:33:31.200 So when you're really getting to know a specific person, like with your wife, for example, you know, she probably you've noticed over the years, of course, whether she really responds to like a big hug or like a little gift, you know, if that's what it is, it's for her, it's gifts and it's physical touch. I don't know the exact terms that he uses. It's Gary Chapman. I want to say, which is a book we recommend all the time. So I'm glad you said that.
00:33:56.360 Oh, yeah. Well, that's great. I nailed it. My first two guesses were her first two.
00:34:00.700 You did. Well done. Well done.
00:34:03.980 But just knowing that helps you so much, right? Because then, you know, like, it's just a way you can check it off in your mind. Like, oh, good. These are ways I can effectively love her. It's just so nice. It's so peaceful to just know that rather than having no idea. Like, what if she really, you know, what if she really loved gifts, but you had no idea.
00:34:22.060 Yeah. But she didn't feel like she could really tell you. So some of the mixed signals is some of it's because women want to give men the space to figure it out. Okay. That's why that woman texted him. Hey, how are you? Because she doesn't want to say, invite me on a date, because then that makes it a little bit less sexy, because it's nice if she just helps him along.
00:34:43.900 And she, I'm assuming maybe she wants to be pursued as well. Is that accurate?
00:34:49.100 Yeah, exactly. Right. So back to that Chris Shepard quote that for a woman, attraction is the feeling of being desired by a powerful man. And I could just replace the word powerful with confident. Okay. So being desired. So that's a very, you know, being pursued, being desired.
00:35:08.160 Um, another thing that I wanted to mention, uh, that I wrote in my notes before here is that whereas men want to be admired, women want to be adored. It's different.
00:35:20.500 Yeah. It makes sense. Yeah. So when in doubt, assume that she wants to be adored and you are going to be doing real well, no matter what kind of signals she's sending you. Um, so this is obviously relationship, especially like relationship or dating.
00:35:35.660 But in the workplace, it's like just, I think, and cause I was thinking about this, like different scenarios, you mentioned different scenarios. I think in the workplace, it's like, okay, just enjoying, enjoying being a man interacting with a woman, even doesn't have to be like this super sexual thing of this thing, but just like being benevolent, that benevolent badass that you are an awesome guy and you know what you want.
00:36:00.320 And you make it happen for like the benefit of all. And it just feels really nice just to even have it as an attitude. And then it just goes into the way that you live your life. That is a gift. I'm telling you, like, that's a gift for women to be around when there is a man like that around. That is amazing.
00:36:19.560 And it just trumps all the little signals like that, that overarchingly, a woman is going to feel less conflicted and less frustrated and less mixed signals weirdness with a man who is like that compared to a man who's just, you know, always trying to win approval and just like not having a strong sense of self mixed signals is mostly a symptom of the problem.
00:36:40.940 You know, if there's like an actual problem and it feels like really impossible to figure out, like the client I was mentioning, he was like, well, what should I do? What would she like? What would she want for me to do? And that's the headspace he was in.
00:36:51.680 Sure. Right.
00:36:52.240 And, you know, whereas if he had been bold from the start and, you know, this is why I told him like from now on, after you meet her, you say, oh, it's great to meet you, blah, blah. And she responds. And then you invite her on a date right away. He hadn't invited her on a date in over a week. And it was just like, oh my God, we have to invite her on a date.
00:37:08.100 Like if he had, this never would have come up, you see. So sometimes it's just like preeminently being that guy that enjoys the hell out of being himself and really enjoys women and knows that women want to be adored and knows that women want to feel his confidence.
00:37:25.960 So let me give you maybe an example of this in my life, because we're talking about mixed signals and we're talking about pursuing a woman.
00:37:33.820 And when my wife and I started dating, it was about 14 years ago now, which sounds so crazy to say.
00:37:39.620 Um, we were both working at the mall and she had given me her number. I asked for a number. She had given it to me and I didn't call her. And later we talked about why this was after we had dated. We may have even been married at the time.
00:37:53.960 And why she was so interested in me and why this actually developed into a relationship. And the answer she gave me is she said to me, you were the only guy that never called me. So help me understand that.
00:38:09.000 Very interesting. Okay. So here's another aspect to it. This is why it's such an age old conversation because hello, it's like, it is so complex.
00:38:16.400 So another aspect to it is that women really love to anticipate. And this is what I tell my introverted guys all the time when they do feel a little passive. I was like, guess what? It's not even that bad because you want to know what? It just makes her crazy with excitement and crazy with anticipation.
00:38:32.120 Oh yeah. So that, I think that's why I was just like, you were mysterious and she just had to wait. And waiting is very exciting for women. It's very, it, because then we get to think about, we get to think about it.
00:38:46.240 We get to want it more ourselves. We have space to want it even more and wanting it just makes it more, um, more like kind of magical and romantic and all of this in our minds.
00:38:59.260 Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. All right. I know we're getting a little bit close on time here, Sarah. I do want to ask you some questions before we get, we wrap this up. The first question is where does a guy get started? Let's say that there's a man who's listening to this podcast and he says, I know that I really want to get out there.
00:39:16.040 I want to meet with women. I want to have relationships. I'm just not real sure where I go from here. Do you have some suggestions or ideas for that man to start doing this and implementing some of the things we talked about today?
00:39:27.940 Mm-hmm. And so one big theme, which I've loved from today is knowing who you are and having a strong sense of yourself.
00:39:35.360 So you can either just go online to like look up lists of values and just narrow it down to those top five core values that you have, as well as the five compliments that you get most often that you resonate with too, that you really love about yourself in terms of your physical looks, how you are with other people, and just like anything special about you.
00:39:56.480 And those are like what I call your values and your factors. They're what's attractive about you.
00:40:01.760 I also have written an ebook that has exercises for that inside of it. And if you go to introvertedalpha.com and you opt into my list, you can get that ebook, but you can also just do it simply through what I just shared.
00:40:14.840 But the ebook shares more about like how each of your values and factors tie into what women find attractive and what women find sexually attractive, which is often like, okay, well, I know what's great about me, but how does that even apply?
00:40:27.700 So it kind of helps shed some light on that. And once you get going on that through one way or another, you're going to start from knowing yourself, you're going to start knowing what you want in women and what your standards are, just like we've been talking about.
00:40:42.180 And when you know who you are, what you want, and what your standards are, then the next step is just increasing your social fluency and your flirting fluency with women through just subtly practicing.
00:40:54.840 It doesn't have to be this crazy thing. It doesn't have to be this big event.
00:40:57.740 Just women in your life that you just enjoying them more, even if you don't have any intention with them and like they're already taken or whatever, just enjoying being a man among women is a great gentle way to start getting this process going.
00:41:13.900 And when you get all this positive feedback from focusing on your values and factors and remembering those every day, like having them as a background on your phone or on your mirror and just enjoying who you are every day and focusing on being that more.
00:41:26.820 And then you would focus on enjoying women in your life. You get all kinds of positive feedback.
00:41:32.280 And then that just encourages you to take the next steps and the next steps.
00:41:35.640 Right. This is actually a pretty important topic because I think the more that you're around the opposite sex, the more you're comfortable with the opposite sex, even though it may not be around necessarily romantically.
00:41:45.340 But if you're in a work environment or, for example, my mother raised her pretty raised me pretty much on her own with my sister.
00:41:52.100 So I've always been comfortable having conversations with women because I grew up having conversations with women.
00:41:56.940 Yeah. All day, every day.
00:41:58.460 Well, there's a couple of questions. There's one that I ask every guest, but it doesn't apply necessarily to you.
00:42:02.900 And so I'm going to tweak a couple of questions here.
00:42:04.860 And the first one, and I think we've kind of answered this, but I do want to ask again, what do you find attractive in a man?
00:42:10.940 So I think the number one thing I find attractive in a man is when he really gets excited about life.
00:42:20.700 He's just excited.
00:42:22.120 So on my first date with my boyfriend, he was telling me, I mean, everything he told me, he just told me about some trips he'd taken in different fun things, just like little, little things.
00:42:30.380 And everything, every other word out of his mouth was amazing.
00:42:33.380 It was amazing. This is amazing. That was amazing.
00:42:35.680 Like this guy knows how to have fun, man.
00:42:38.180 And this guy loves life. And that really struck me.
00:42:42.100 And it continues to every day. That's still very true to him.
00:42:44.640 And it's just, I enjoy it so much.
00:42:46.540 And I find it so attractive because I guess it goes down to enjoying being yourself and just enjoying life.
00:42:54.660 I mean, what else are we here for, but to enjoy ourselves and enjoy each other.
00:42:57.880 Right. I love it. Good.
00:42:59.080 And then my last question is this, and I ask every guy on my show, 57, 58 episodes to date, what does it mean to be a man?
00:43:07.160 But I think it'd be really valuable to get your insight and perspective into what does it mean to be a woman?
00:43:13.500 Mm-hmm. So to me, it's the same general thing of enjoying being yourself, but it's just so sexy in a certain way to be a woman.
00:43:23.500 I really love it. I'm really glad that I'm a woman because it's, it just, everything feels sexy.
00:43:29.260 So I think one thing that, um, that women understand about each other and it's fun for men to consider and think about is that, you know, everything, every, there's a fine line between pleasurable and sexual.
00:43:42.800 It's like everything just kind of feels sexy. Everything that's like food, that's delicious, beautiful ambiance, you know, a touch, even if it's not like overtly sexual, it just still feels so delicious and like sensual.
00:43:57.440 And so I think that being tuned into that and enjoying that part of being a woman is a lot of what it means for me to be a woman.
00:44:06.280 I love it. Awesome. And then last thing, how do we connect with you guys are listening to this. They say, Sarah knows what she's talking about. We want to figure out more. Where do we go? How do we connect and all of that?
00:44:15.460 Mm-hmm. You can go to introvertedalpha.com and I always have a lot of fun gifts on there. I have my blog. I am in the process of making an online workshop that I'm really excited for. It's going to be awesome. So definitely watch that. And you can find all that at introvertedalpha.com.
00:44:34.800 Awesome. We'll make sure we connect that and link that up in the show notes. Sarah, the very first woman on our show, you led off great. You represented well. I really appreciate you. All of your insight.
00:44:44.440 I know that the guys listening to this are going to get a ton of value. So I want to thank you and let you know that I appreciate you being on the show today.
00:44:50.780 Thanks so much, Ryan. I really enjoy talking with you. I knew I would, and it was just such a pleasure. And I'm so honored to be the first woman on your show.
00:44:59.300 There you have it, guys. Sarah Jones bringing the knowledge so you can be a little bit better with the ladies. Now, don't sit on this information. Use it. Learning is easy, but applying is where you actually get the results.
00:45:12.060 Now, with that said, I told you at the beginning of the show, I had a big announcement. Here it is.
00:45:16.380 Next week, I'm going to be releasing my interview with one of the baddest men on the planet, retired Navy SEAL commander of Task Unit Bruiser and New York Times bestselling author of my favorite leadership book, Extreme Ownership, Mr. Jocko Willink.
00:45:32.380 Do not miss the show. Do not miss the show. Subscribe to the podcast. Share it with your buddies. But whatever you do, tune in next week for an incredible, in-your-face, pull-no-punches podcast with Mr. Jocko Willink.
00:45:46.540 In the meantime, go check out Iron Council. It's an elite group of brothers that are going to push you. They're going to question you. They're going to test you. And they're going to hold your feet to the fire. And that's what it takes to shake you out of the life you might currently find yourself in.
00:46:00.620 Head to orderofman.com slash ironcouncil and join us right now. Again, all the details of the show can be found at orderofman.com slash 059. You can also join the conversation we're having about masculinity in our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash orderofman.
00:46:14.700 And guys, I look forward to talking to you next week with Jocko Willink. But until then, take action and become the man you were meant to be.
00:46:22.600 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be? We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.