Order of Man - OoM 060： Jocko Willink on Leading Yourself and Men

00:00:00.000 One of the best things about the discipline characteristic is I don't believe it is something that you're either born or not born with.

00:00:06.800 I think it's just a choice that you make.

00:00:08.340 Are you then going to approach the tasks for your designated job for the day with passion and get them accomplished?

00:00:17.040 Yes or no?

00:00:18.240 You're a man of action.

00:00:19.700 You live life to the fullest.

00:00:21.140 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:24.080 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time.

00:00:27.480 Every time.

00:00:28.160 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:33.580 This is your life.

00:00:34.700 This is who you are.

00:00:35.920 This is who you will become.

00:00:37.860 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:43.500 Men, what is going on today?

00:00:44.820 My name is Ryan Michler and I am the host and founder of Order of Man.

00:00:48.080 Now if you're new here, this is a show about being a man.

00:00:50.960 What that looks like, what the responsibilities are, and how we show up in the world.

00:00:55.280 My goal is to help you become a better leader in your family, your business, your community, and your life.

00:01:01.880 And I am stoked to be here with you today because I have probably the single most qualified man on the planet to talk with you about this concept of being a leader.

00:01:11.380 On the show with me today, Navy SEAL Commander Jocko Willink.

00:01:15.400 Now normally right now I talk to you for a couple of minutes about some of the other things I have going on with Order of Man, but I'm not going to do that today because I know why you're here.

00:01:22.680 You're here to listen in on the conversation Jocko and I have.

00:01:25.940 So before I introduce him, let me just tell you that you can find all the links, the show notes, quotes, and even the transcription for this podcast at orderofman.com slash 060.

00:01:37.120 Also, we're going to be having a discussion about this podcast and so much more in our closed Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash order of man.

00:01:44.720 All right, let's talk about Jocko here for a minute.

00:01:46.740 Jocko Willink spent 20 years in the Navy SEALs as first a SEAL operator and then a SEAL officer.

00:01:52.940 He retired in 2010 after serving as the SEAL commander of Task Unit Bruiser in Ramadi, Iraq.

00:01:58.720 At the time, Ramadi was one of the most dangerous places on the planet.

00:02:02.520 I can attest to that because I was there at the same time that he was.

00:02:06.140 And through the combination of efforts between his unit and other military forces, he helps bring stability to the region and Task Unit Bruiser became the highest decorated special operations unit of the war in Iraq.

00:02:18.320 He's a bronze and silver star recipient.

00:02:20.440 He's a Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt.

00:02:23.140 He's the former officer in charge of training of all West Coast SEAL teams.

00:02:26.780 He's a New York Times bestselling author.

00:02:28.880 And like I mentioned before, one of the baddest men on the planet.

00:02:32.240 And today he talks with us about war, leadership, and owning your decisions and your life.

00:02:39.720 Jocko, what's going on, man?

00:02:40.800 Glad you're here.

00:02:41.280 Thanks for joining us on the show today.

00:02:42.580 Glad to be here.

00:02:43.620 So I want to talk about this book that you wrote because it's blowing up.

00:02:47.660 I read it.

00:02:48.280 It's probably one of the best books on leadership that I've ever personally gone through.

00:02:52.280 I know a lot of the guys that are listening to the show really resonate with the message that you're sharing because it's a similar message to what we share.

00:02:58.360 And so I'd like to get your perspective, Jocko, on when you say extreme ownership, what are you talking about?

00:03:03.540 Extreme ownership is an attitude and a mindset that you have, that I have, of not making excuses for anything and not blaming other people when things go wrong.

00:03:16.760 And if there's problems or issues that arise, instead of blaming other people or blaming circumstances, you just take ownership of the problems and you get them fixed and solved.

00:03:26.920 But the reality is this is not all that common, right?

00:03:30.520 I mean, we see a lot of people, leaders, whether it's fathers and husbands or business owners, community leaders, politicians who don't have this mindset.

00:03:38.780 So what's the disconnect between what you're saying and what reality is actually telling us?

00:03:43.020 I wouldn't say it's totally uncommon.

00:03:45.180 I mean, I hang out with a bunch of great people that do take ownership of stuff.

00:03:49.080 And, you know, when I served in the military, there was great guys in the military and women that took ownership of their part of the mission and executed it in an outstanding manner.

00:03:59.200 But, you know, you would see not only the military, now that I work with businesses, you do see oftentimes, unfortunately, you see people blaming.

00:04:06.240 Again, like I said, blaming other people, blaming circumstances instead of just taking ownership of the problem and getting the thing solved, getting to it.

00:04:16.300 Why do you think we're more concerned about blaming somebody else or blaming some outside factors, something that we don't have any control over, rather than just taking responsibility?

00:04:26.900 Because it almost seems like, and based on our limited interaction in the book, that this is like common sense stuff, that if you actually take ownership, you're going to approve whatever area of life you're working to improve.

00:04:38.920 So why aren't guys doing this?

00:04:41.500 Is it because it's easier to shift the blame or what?

00:04:43.960 The biggest obstacle when it comes to taking ownership of things and ownership of problems is your ego.

00:04:52.180 Your ego is absolutely the biggest issue that comes up because no one wants to admit, hey, I made a mistake or I did something wrong.

00:05:00.900 It hurts your ego to say that.

00:05:03.100 And it hurts your ego to say that, hey, the reason that we failed on this mission is because I made a mistake or I didn't foresee what the enemy was going to do.

00:05:10.440 It's my fault.

00:05:11.360 That hurts everyone's ego.

00:05:13.540 And so everyone's ego is a part of their brain that it's hard to get under control.

00:05:20.560 And when you can't get your ego under control, then you can't admit when you've made mistakes.

00:05:25.000 And when you can't admit that you've made mistakes, then you can't fix the mistakes.

00:05:29.400 So ego is not a bad thing.

00:05:31.220 I'm not saying ego is a bad thing because ego is what drives people.

00:05:34.260 You know, I have an ego, of course, that's what drives people to do well.

00:05:38.440 That's what drives you to compete.

00:05:39.820 That's what drives you to try and win.

00:05:41.780 And there's nothing wrong with that.

00:05:43.360 But when your ego gets out of control and starts to control you instead of you controlling your ego, that's when it becomes problematic.

00:05:50.500 And a lot of times it manifests itself in a person not being able to say, hey, you know what, this didn't go the way I wanted it to go and it's my fault.

00:06:01.480 And if you can't say that, you're not going to change and you're not going to fix things.

00:06:06.780 So how do you recognize this in yourself mostly?

00:06:09.160 Because I think a lot of the times a guy might have this ego or this arrogance.

00:06:13.460 And like you said, there's a fine line between it being effective and productive in your life and then it keeping you from accomplishing the things that you want to accomplish.

00:06:21.040 How do you recognize ego or pride in yourself to the point that it becomes a fault?

00:06:25.560 There's some red flags that will start to pop up that should be telling you that your ego is starting to encroach on your decision-making process.

00:06:35.860 So one is if you start getting really frustrated with other people and you start saying, wow, this person doesn't do that and they don't do this and they need to do a better job.

00:06:45.980 And you're just, when you start blaming other people, that's a little red flag that you need to start checking yourself because you can't control other people.

00:06:57.020 I mean, you can guide them, you can lead them, but you can't control them and they're going to do what they're going to do.

00:07:01.400 And so the one person you can control is yourself.

00:07:04.060 So when you start getting frustrated with other people, aim that frustration at yourself and see what you can do to fix your situation instead of just sitting around and blaming other people.

00:07:13.200 So when you start to feel angry, when you start to feel frustrated, when you start to feel emotional, a lot of times that's driven by ego.

00:07:21.060 Interesting. Yeah. And that makes sense. And I like what you talk. You talk a lot about in the book about leadership and just what you said, that you can't control other people.

00:07:28.120 And I think a lot of the times leaders tend to make that mistake where they think that their job is to manipulate and coerce and push and drive and get people to change.

00:07:38.780 But I guess what you're saying is that if you change, are people naturally going to respond to that?

00:07:43.200 Yes. And leadership, you are trying to get people to do what you want them to do. That is what leadership is.

00:07:50.860 You're trying to get a team or a group of people unified behind a plan, a common plan that everyone agrees on that you're going to move forward and execute some kind of a mission.

00:07:59.780 That's what leadership is.

00:08:01.280 Sure. It makes sense.

00:08:02.140 And the difference between, you know, I would say that leadership is manipulation. It is.

00:08:06.400 I mean, if I'm trying to get you to do something, Ryan, and I'm talking to you and I'm using certain vocabulary and I'm treating you a certain way because I'm trying to get you to do something.

00:08:14.020 I mean, that's manipulation, right? I'm trying to get you to do something.

00:08:16.880 Now, in my mind, it's only manipulation if I'm trying to get you to do something that is not beneficial to you and it's beneficial to me only.

00:08:24.700 It's only trying to help me.

00:08:25.660 That's manipulation. I'm only trying to help myself. But what if I'm trying to get you to do

00:08:30.360 something that's going to help you and it's going to help the team? Especially if I've asked you to

00:08:36.120 do it, right? If I've asked you to guide me or coach me or lead me, then that's something

00:08:39.680 entirely different. That's leadership, right? That's leadership. Now the tactics and techniques

00:08:44.800 that a manipulator might use might be similar to what a leader might use, but the intent and the

00:08:51.100 outcome of what a leader is trying to do, the leaders, I actually want you to win. I actually

00:08:55.360 want you to be more successful than me. I want you to do, I want this, I want this change that

00:09:00.180 you make to make you surpass everything I've done. That's what a leader is trying to do. A leader is

00:09:04.580 trying to really get you to do better than themselves. And I think that when people are

00:09:09.780 being led and they recognize that, they recognize that the leader is putting the people and their

00:09:17.760 team ahead of them. I think people very easily recognize that. And that actually causes you to

00:09:23.820 work even harder to try and perform the mission. And so, I mean, obviously you've got firsthand

00:09:29.300 experience with Task Unit Bruiser in Ramadi, and I know you're leading a team there. Are there some

00:09:33.880 things that we can extract from the lessons that you learned leading your team and that we can extract

00:09:38.960 there and figure out some of these tactics that you talk about to implement in our own lives,

00:09:42.900 to lead our businesses or lead our families?

00:09:45.040 Well, yeah, absolutely. We actually, Leif Babin, who was one of the platoon commanders that worked

00:09:50.940 for me in Task Unit Bruiser and a brother of mine, we actually wrote an entire book on that very subject

00:09:56.720 and how we led in combat transfers over into how you lead people in the civilian sector and how you

00:10:02.920 lead people in life and how you lead yourself. Because, you know, you're in a leadership position.

00:10:08.020 The first person you have to lead is yourself. You have to get yourself going in the right

00:10:11.080 direction. You have to discipline yourself. You have to make sure that you are upholding the

00:10:15.680 standard. And that's the first and most critical piece of leadership is making sure that you're

00:10:21.320 leading yourself. And then once you get beyond that, now you start leading your team. And yeah,

00:10:25.580 those lessons absolutely transfer over from combat to civilian world to business world and to life.

00:10:33.640 Let's talk about the concept of self-discipline because I know that this is a popular topic and

00:10:38.900 obviously there's a lot of self-help gurus talking about this. And there's two sides to it.

00:10:43.680 There's self-discipline, which is forcing yourself to do something. And there's another side of it that

00:10:47.920 I think a lot of people are just naturally driven that it's not discipline. It's just the way in which

00:10:52.500 they're wired. So where's the differentiation? How do you become more disciplined for yourself so that

00:10:58.780 you can start leading these teams like you're talking about?

00:11:01.480 One of the best things about the discipline characteristic is it's, I don't believe it is something that

00:11:07.760 you're either born or not born with. I think it's just a choice that you make. Are you going to wake

00:11:12.220 up early in the morning? Yes or no. Are you then going to put yourself through some kind of a grinding

00:11:17.600 physical workout? Yes or no. Are you then going to approach the tasks for your designated job for the

00:11:26.100 day with passion and get them accomplished? Yes or no. All those are just simple questions about what you do

00:11:34.140 in daily life. And depending on how you answer those, yes or no, either yes, I'm going to get up

00:11:40.300 early. Yes, I'm going to work out hard. Yes, I'm going to accomplish my tasks for the day. Those are

00:11:46.900 just the discipline answers, very simply. Or no, I'm going to be lazy and sleep in. No, I'm not going to

00:11:53.320 push myself physically. And no, I'm not going to attack the tasks that I have for the day. And those

00:12:01.080 are lack of discipline. And that's what, that's what your life will begin to reflect as an

00:12:07.020 undisciplined life. And the key component for me, and again, this is something that I wrote about in

00:12:12.840 the book is the discipline is what gives you freedom in life. And it's not, you know, just because you live

00:12:20.620 in a structured, organized and rigid life like I do, it doesn't mean that my life is confined or

00:12:28.880 restrained. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Because I live a disciplined life, I actually have

00:12:36.220 more freedom than most people do. I mean, I have a ton of freedom in my life and the way that the

00:12:41.920 things I'm able to do because of the disciplined life that I've led. And so people lose track of that

00:12:47.200 a little bit. And they all they want is the freedom. They want that. They just want to do whatever they

00:12:50.800 want. Well, you can't do whatever you want. It takes discipline to get to that point in your life.

00:12:54.880 And that's why I think it's that that mantra of mine of discipline equals freedom is a key component

00:13:01.880 of moving forward and attaining the things that you want, because you're not going to no one's

00:13:06.980 going to give you anything. No one's going to knock on Ryan's door and say, hey, here's the good deal

00:13:14.000 you've been looking for. That's not going to happen, right? You've got to make it happen. And the only way

00:13:18.520 you're going to make it happen is through hard work and discipline. And so that's why if you become

00:13:23.940 disciplined and you choose to be disciplined, you will end up with more freedom in the long run.

00:13:30.000 And that's a great point, because I think what you just said, when I read this in the book,

00:13:33.220 it made total sense to me. And I think the point is that discipline is a choice, which is creating

00:13:38.780 freedom because you don't have to get out of bed early. You don't have to go bust your ass at the 0.99

00:13:42.760 gym. But if you choose to, that's going to create more opportunities in your life. 0.99

00:13:48.060 Indeed.

00:13:48.900 So what do you say to the guy? Here's what's going to happen. Somebody is going to hear this

00:13:52.460 and I'm going to get a message or an email that says, well, Ryan, I really want to get

00:13:56.340 up early. I really want to go work out. Like I want to do these things, but I don't know

00:14:00.440 how to get started or I don't know how to keep doing it or stay consistent. What do you say

00:14:04.200 to that guy? 0.99

00:14:05.380 I'd say you're being mentally weak. I mean, that's, you know, wake up, get out of bed, 0.97

00:14:11.260 do pushups and sit ups. You don't need any equipment. You don't need anything to do that.

00:14:15.520 Go do some burpees. You don't need any equipment to do that. Set your alarm clock, get up,

00:14:19.600 get out of bed and make these things happen. A person like that, again, you can't deliver

00:14:24.800 someone the discipline. They have to bring it themselves. And so if someone says that

00:14:33.120 they can't do it, I say, I'm sorry to hear that. I will continue to go out and crush and

00:14:39.400 you can stay back behind in your bed and watch your life slip away.

00:14:45.760 You know, it also brings up a really good point, which is that we can't be consumed with what other

00:14:52.720 people are doing or the way other people are behaving. And how do you address this when you're

00:14:57.520 working with a team that maybe, for example, in the military, and I don't, this is probably a little

00:15:02.740 bit more when I was in the military rather than you is like, you don't get to choose necessarily

00:15:06.860 your team. I know with Navy SEALs, there's obviously a greater weeding out process than what

00:15:11.020 I had when I went through the military, but how do you do this with a team that maybe not

00:15:15.820 everybody's on board with the vision you have for, for what you're trying to accomplish?

00:15:19.440 Well, I wonder why they're not on the, on board with the vision.

00:15:22.500 You're coming back to leadership.

00:15:23.920 Yeah. If, if I've come up with a good vision, that makes sense, that we can accomplish,

00:15:30.980 that's going to be done in a logical way. That's going to get, improve the situation for our team.

00:15:37.760 Why would you not be on board with it? It's only because I'm not, I'm not, I'm not communicating

00:15:42.800 well enough. I'm not leading well enough. I'm not convincing you well enough. I'm not

00:15:46.720 answering the question. Why I'm not explaining why those things all come back onto me. If my team

00:15:52.720 doesn't want to do what I think is the right thing to do. And you know what else I could be wrong.

00:15:57.580 I could have the wrong vision and you, and if I don't discuss that with you and say, Hey Ryan,

00:16:03.440 here's what we want to do. Here's where I want to get, here's how I want to make it happen.

00:16:06.400 And you don't agree with it. And I just tell you to shut up and do what I said. Well, 0.85

00:16:10.780 are you going to do it? No, of course not. Yeah. There's going to be contention there.

00:16:13.880 There's going to be contention. And even if I'm quote unquote outrank you and you work for me and

00:16:19.140 you're my subordinate and I tell you to do it, are you going to do it? You might do it. Are you

00:16:23.880 going to give it your full effort? No. Are you going to push past any obstacles that come up? No.

00:16:29.600 I mean, it's just going to be bad, bad and bad. So that's once again, boils down to leadership.

00:16:36.020 And one of the critical points is, Oh, my team doesn't want to do the mission. They're not on

00:16:43.760 board with the mission. My team's fault that they're not on board. Wrong answer. Mr. Leader,

00:16:50.280 it's your fault. They're not on board. It's your, it's my fault that my team doesn't want to do this

00:16:55.620 mission. It's not my team's fault. I'm the leader. How can I blame my team? I'm the leader.

00:17:00.760 So that's just another excuse for a leader to make and saying, Hey, my team's not good.

00:17:07.280 They weren't selected. They weren't trained. Oh, my team wasn't trained. Cool. Train them.

00:17:10.840 Right. Right. That's on you. Right. Yeah. One of the stories in the book that you talk about was

00:17:15.580 an incident of fratricide, or I guess it was near, I don't know. I can't remember.

00:17:19.980 Yes. It was, it was an incident where, uh, there was multiple units out on the battlefield,

00:17:24.540 seals, Marines, army, and Iraqi army soldiers. And there was a fratricide or blue on blue where

00:17:33.340 we had friendlies shooting at each other, including seals and Iraqi soldiers. And yes,

00:17:39.560 there was a fratricide and one of the Iraqi soldiers was killed. One of my seals was wounded

00:17:45.200 and it was an absolutely horrific scenario. And I think from the outside looking in without

00:17:51.660 really understanding the concepts you're talking about in this book, it would be easy to say,

00:17:55.980 well, there's nothing you could have done. There's, I mean, this is just part of the deal.

00:18:00.240 This is what happens and there's nothing you can do and you can blame it on these outside factors.

00:18:03.940 But I'd like to hear a little bit about how you handled that situation, because it almost seems

00:18:07.940 like it was a surprise to the commanders above you when you came into this situation and explained

00:18:12.600 what really happened and how you took responsibility for that.

00:18:15.760 Yeah. So the event happened, the scenario happened. Like I said, it was awful. We shut

00:18:22.180 down operations. We, the seal, my seal, you know, we shut down operations. We were ordered to shut

00:18:27.020 down operations. We went back to our base. I immediately get the message, you know, you need

00:18:32.400 to prepare a brief on what happened. And I, and I knew that this was, you know, cause my commanding

00:18:38.300 officer said, my commanding officer, my command master chief and the investigating officer were going to

00:18:42.640 come out and find out what happened. And they were absolutely looking to relieve somebody is what

00:18:49.240 they call the military, which that means in the civilian world, it means fire somebody.

00:18:53.400 So who are we going to fire that this bad thing happened out on the battlefield? Who are we going

00:18:58.300 to fire? And so I started putting together my brief on what happened. And I mean, it was a very,

00:19:03.780 I understood what, what had happened. There was units that moved to the wrong positions. There were

00:19:07.660 other units that didn't report that where they were. There was people moving to positions that they

00:19:11.280 should move to a bunch of, a bunch of things, people moving before timeframes that they were

00:19:16.480 supposed to move people going beyond limits that they were supposed to advance beyond. So there was

00:19:21.420 a bunch of mistakes that were made. And as I put this together, you know, there was all these

00:19:25.800 different people that had made these mistakes in the chain of command, throughout the chain of

00:19:29.800 command with my guys, with the army guys, with the Iraqi soldiers, with the Marine Corps that was

00:19:34.640 with the Iraqi soldiers. There was all kinds of mistakes that were made. And once I completed it,

00:19:40.060 I had all this blame for everybody else. And literally 20 minutes before I walked in to debrief

00:19:50.120 my commanding officer, the investigating officer and the command master chief, I still didn't feel

00:19:55.720 as if it was right. I didn't understand why it didn't make sense to me, why I didn't feel conclusive

00:20:01.080 about where the blame was being placed. Sure. Right. And I wasn't quite sure what was nagging at me.

00:20:09.080 And then it just hit me like a bolt of lightning that, Hey, idiot, what's missing is that you are 1.00

00:20:15.980 the person to blame me. And so walked into the room with the commanding officer and the, and the command 1.00

00:20:23.040 master chief, the investigating officer and all of my guys, including the guy that had been wounded,

00:20:26.380 sitting in the back of the room with his head bandaged up. And I just said, Hey guys, you know,

00:20:32.480 whose fault was this? And one of the guys raised his hand and said, it was my fault. I didn't pass

00:20:37.400 where we were going to be in time. And I said, no, it wasn't your fault. Another guy raised his hand

00:20:41.760 and said, no, it was my fault. I should have identified the target. I was shooting that better

00:20:45.320 and realized who it was. And I didn't, that's my fault. And I said, no, it's not your fault.

00:20:49.520 And then another guy raised his hand. And finally, I just said, look guys, this was not your fault.

00:20:53.840 It was not your fault. And it was not your fault. There's only one person to blame for this

00:20:57.520 happening. And that's me. Yeah. I'm the commander. I'm overall responsible for everything that happens

00:21:04.820 out there. And I will promise you it will never happen again. And I would say that it was surprising

00:21:11.660 to my commanding officer and, and, and everyone really, maybe not my guys because my guys knew me,

00:21:18.800 but they also knew that I didn't have to take the blame. You know, they, they knew that there

00:21:23.820 was other people that I could have tried to point the finger at, but they also knew me well enough

00:21:29.780 to think that I wouldn't do that. But, and so that's what I did. And, you know, I actually think

00:21:35.940 that my commanding officer, his, his trust for me actually increased. It didn't decrease. It

00:21:41.040 increased because he realized that I was going to be, I was, I would take responsibility if things

00:21:46.260 happened. So it was a, definitely a big lesson learned. And certainly it was certainly a moment

00:21:54.480 in my life that absolutely crystallized the idea of extreme ownership.

00:22:02.540 Guys, I just want to take a real quick timeout to introduce you to a resource you will want to

00:22:06.680 check out if you're ready to take action and extreme ownership in your life. I'm talking about

00:22:12.260 our elite mastermind, the iron council. We're a group of men working, not just talking, but working

00:22:17.700 on how to become better men in every area of our lives. Every single man inside of the council is

00:22:23.060 working to improve his relationships and his business, his family, his health, his wealth,

00:22:27.000 and his life. And I want you to get involved too. This is a group designed to push you. It's designed to

00:22:32.340 test you, to challenge you. It's designed to help you step outside of your comfort zone and do some

00:22:37.500 things that you would not normally do. It's the only way to see real results in your life.

00:22:43.340 So if you feel yourself struggling in your relationships or with your career or your money

00:22:48.180 or your health or your wealth, you need to join me and the rest of the men inside the iron council.

00:22:53.780 We complete weekly assignments. We connect with a battle brother. We meet each and every week and we

00:22:58.400 do the things we actually do the things that are going to help you succeed massively in your life.

00:23:02.660 So you can check that out at order of man.com slash iron council. I'm looking forward to seeing

00:23:07.640 you on the inside. Now back to my interview with Jocko. Yeah. And I really liked that. You said

00:23:13.960 that it helped develop trust, not only probably with your, your, uh, commanding officer, like you

00:23:17.800 talk about, but then the trust level with your team, knowing that, Hey, our leader, this guy is

00:23:23.760 actually going to go to bat for us in, you know, this situation, where else is he going to go to bat

00:23:29.100 for us too. The other point that you made is that you were realistic about the problems that went

00:23:35.240 wrong. So I want there to be a distinction between just blindly taking ownership and just not worrying

00:23:41.700 about what happened and just saying, Oh, it's my fault. And then being realistic about what actually

00:23:45.760 happened, but still deciding that, yes, it's my fault. And here's the actions that we're going to

00:23:51.060 take to correct the situation. Well, you have to truly believe it's another thing. You can't just

00:23:56.680 go out there and stand up in front and say, Hey guys, it's my fault. Sorry. I let you down.

00:24:01.520 Yeah. That's, that's not real. You have to actually believe that it was your fault. I wasn't

00:24:08.220 just saying like, Oh, this was my fault guys. I'll take responsibility. No, I truly believe this.

00:24:13.160 Everything that happened was my fault. So I look at the guy that had let the Iraqis advance further 1.00

00:24:20.700 than they should have. Well, guess what? I was in charge of the planning. I should have made it

00:24:25.220 perfectly clear where, where they were allowed to go, where they couldn't and could not go at what

00:24:30.900 time they were supposed to be there. I should have owned that more and made, made it perfectly

00:24:36.120 clear down the chain of command. I failed to do that. Therefore the Iraqis went to a wrong position. 1.00

00:24:40.780 I should have talked more in depth to my guys about the, the criticality of positively identifying

00:24:46.880 your targets. I should have explained that there could be Iraqis in the area. We need to

00:24:51.660 triple confirm who you're engaging as a target. And by the way, they're going to be using clothing

00:24:58.980 and uniforms that look like pictures of what we see the enemy use. So we need to triple confirm

00:25:04.940 before we engage. Well, guess what? I, I said that I didn't obviously make it clear enough. Truly my

00:25:11.400 fault. I'm not just lip service and saying, Oh, it was all my fault. No, these are things that I

00:25:17.140 need to do. Now, the beautiful thing about extreme ownership and having that attitude and that

00:25:22.160 mindset. When I said that to my guys, they didn't turn around and point, point their fingers at me

00:25:27.040 and say, that's right. You should have told us that's right. They said, no, Jocko, no, I should

00:25:32.880 have known. I'm a grown man. I'm a seal. I should have known. I should have done that. It's my fault.

00:25:38.260 So what we had was everyone taking ownership of the problems and everyone getting the problem

00:25:43.100 solved as opposed to if I pointed the finger, then they would point the finger and then everyone

00:25:48.560 would be pointing the finger and no one will be able to solve the problem. So how do you plan for

00:25:53.040 some of these unknowns? Because there's a lot of situations and scenarios that could have played out

00:25:57.920 that are impossible probably to really fully recognize what could happen before it actually

00:26:03.920 happens. So how does a man adapt and, and, and overcome some of these things when they just can't

00:26:09.560 be planned for? Well, first of all, nothing in life can be a hundred percent planned for.

00:26:15.160 And so that's why the most important characteristic for a leadership to have in terms of, uh, in terms

00:26:20.420 of adapting on the battlefield is the key word is adaptability. And the way that you get adaptability

00:26:25.480 in combat is to prepare for, in preparing for combat is to put people in scenarios that they cannot

00:26:31.760 predict and put people in scenarios where they have to make decisions that they would not normally make.

00:26:36.900 In fact, one of the best things to do is give people restrictions and say, okay, Ryan, here's

00:26:42.940 the operation. I want you to go on. And no matter what, I don't want you to cross this line. And you

00:26:47.360 say, okay, got it, Jocko. Now I send you out on the operation and I set up the operation so that you get

00:26:52.940 put in a situation where the only way you can win is to cross the line and disobey what I told you.

00:26:58.380 Right. Right.

00:26:59.100 What I want you to do is I want you to think, and I want to train you to be able to think. I don't

00:27:03.820 want to train you to obey orders. That's what robots do. Right. I don't want to train you to

00:27:09.220 obey orders. That's not what, that's not what military training is about for me. What military

00:27:14.460 training is about for me. And when I ran training, this is what I emphasized is that military training

00:27:19.660 and training in general is, I want you to think, that's what I want you to do. I want you to think

00:27:24.920 if you're a construction worker and something is happening on the construction site, I want you to

00:27:30.360 think about how to win in that situation. If we're in the financial world and there's something

00:27:35.300 happening in the markets, I don't want you to have to come back to me and say, Hey, Jocko,

00:27:38.960 this is what's happening. What should I do? No, I want you to think, I want you to know,

00:27:42.880 I want you to decide, I want you to take action because as long as it takes you to come back and

00:27:47.900 ask me what my opinion is, but first you have to tell me what's going on. You have to give me the

00:27:51.360 parameters of the situation. I can't react fast enough and then tell you what to do.

00:27:55.720 So I need you to lead. And in order for you to be able to lead, you need to be able to think.

00:28:00.360 So the thought process is extremely important. And that's what I always emphasized in training.

00:28:06.780 And I think that applies. It does. It applies to everything that humans do as a team. And you

00:28:12.180 know, that's in the book, we talk about decentralized command. That's what decentralized command is,

00:28:16.000 is ensuring that the people that are below you specifically in the chain of command,

00:28:20.820 that you've got them in a situation where they understand what they're doing, they understand

00:28:24.380 why they're doing it. And once they know that, then you know what, once you and I, Ryan, I trust

00:28:30.820 you, you know, our standard operating procedures, you know, what my expectations are of you are to

00:28:36.980 get done and make happen. You know, the parameters with which within which I want you to work,

00:28:42.160 I can let you go out and do whatever you want. Because you're going to stay within the guidelines.

00:28:48.080 And I just talked about this on my podcast the other day, guess what your kids are?

00:28:52.180 They're your little troopers. And if your kids are going to go out, you're not going to be there

00:28:57.660 for every decision they have to make. You're not going to be there when somebody hands them

00:29:00.780 drugs. You're not going to be there when something bad is happening. You're not going to be there when

00:29:04.520 they, you know, they've had a couple alcoholic drinks, and now they feel like they need to drive

00:29:09.380 somewhere. You're not going to be there to impose your rules on them. You have to give them the rules

00:29:16.820 of their own so that they understand why it's important and that they can make the right decisions on

00:29:21.340 their own without your oversight. That's what you want from your kids, from your employees,

00:29:28.640 and from everybody that you work with on your team. I really like this concept. And I use it to

00:29:34.200 a small degree. I've got four kids. My oldest is eight years old. And we talk about taking out the

00:29:38.280 trash. That's one of his chores. And he came in the other day and he said, I can't take it out. It's

00:29:41.320 too heavy. And I said, son, you've got to find a way to do it. The mission is to take the trash to

00:29:45.360 the curb and you've got to find a way to do it. I don't know how you're going to do it, but make it work.

00:29:48.680 And so he went out there and he started taking bags out of one and put it in another and hauled

00:29:53.380 them both to the curb, came back in as proud as you can be because I didn't have to tell him how

00:29:57.420 to do it. He knew what the mission was and he just figured it out on his own.

00:30:01.040 Yeah. One of the things that I'd say is if you're helping your kids, you're hurting your kids

00:30:06.820 and kind of counterintuitive. But if you would have gone and helped your son take the trash out

00:30:12.780 and done it for him, then he wouldn't have learned that lesson. He wouldn't have learned to think for

00:30:17.480 himself. He wouldn't have learned about that. I mean, it's a base. It's a simple thing,

00:30:21.460 right? Taking out the trash. Right. Right. He learned a lesson from it. He learned about

00:30:24.860 persistence. He learned about solving problems. And that's a beautiful thing. If you didn't,

00:30:30.280 if you just did it for him, he wouldn't have learned those things. And that's, and that,

00:30:34.180 that builds up over a lifetime. So you talk about one of the laws of combat being decentralized

00:30:39.460 command, which we just addressed. Let's go through some of these others because I think they're

00:30:42.980 important. So the next one, and I don't know that these are necessarily in order,

00:30:46.120 but cover and move. Let's talk about what that is.

00:30:48.940 Well, cover and move is, is, well, you were in the army. And again, thank you for your service.

00:30:53.240 Uh, uh, you know, for those of you that don't know, you may not know this, but Ryan, was it,

00:30:57.820 were you in the army, right?

00:30:59.500 Army. Yeah. Using the army national garden. Then I went into the army and served in, in a little

00:31:03.760 place in, in Western Iraq in Al-Ambar province called Ramadi, which at the time that he was there

00:31:09.660 and the time I was there, it was absolutely the epicenter of the insurgency and one of the worst

00:31:15.900 places on earth. And so thank you for your service, Ryan, and what you did over there.

00:31:21.420 But when it comes to cover and move, you being an army guy, this is a, this is the most fundamental

00:31:26.700 of all gunfighting tactics is cover and move. So if Ryan and I are going to go take down a building,

00:31:34.340 I'm going to get some, some cover and I'm going to start engaging the building and shooting at the

00:31:39.340 building. And that makes the guys inside, the bad guys, it keeps their heads down and they're 0.86

00:31:44.160 hiding. And that means Ryan can get up and maneuver to a better position. Once Ryan gets to a better

00:31:48.300 position, he starts engaging the enemy. And while he's engaging the enemy and keeping their heads

00:31:52.220 down, I get up and move. Once I get up and move, I find a better position and I do it again. I start

00:31:57.420 shooting and Ryan can move again. And that's what we do. We bound together. We, we, we bound and cover

00:32:02.180 each other's movement. That's called cover and move. Now, if Ryan is up and running and I decide

00:32:07.820 I'm going to stop shooting, well, that means the enemy is going to pop their head up. They're going

00:32:11.020 to see Ryan and they're going to kill him. Right. And so the, the, the, the basic concept of cover 1.00

00:32:17.360 and move is teamwork and working together with your team, everyone doing their job together

00:32:24.240 in support of one another in order to accomplish the mission. And the key piece of this is that if

00:32:29.660 I decide I'm just going to go on my own, Ryan's going to get killed. And by the way, once Ryan

00:32:34.180 gets killed, now the enemy is going to fire and maneuver on me. They're going to cover and move

00:32:37.640 on me and they're going to kill me. Right. Cause you're not covered. 1.00

00:32:39.400 So the essentially cover and move is just the essence of teamwork and working together in a team

00:32:46.040 and every business is what we found. As soon as we started working with businesses, every business

00:32:50.080 in the world has multiple different units inside of it where they've all got to do their piece of

00:32:56.080 the job. They've all got to do their piece of the mission and they've all got to cover for each other

00:33:00.480 as they move. So that's why it translates very well to the business world. You know, you've got

00:33:06.200 sales departments and operation departments and engineering departments and human resource

00:33:12.180 departments and each one of these little departments has got to do their part of the job in order for

00:33:16.700 the team to win. And that's what cover and move is all about. Love. It makes total sense. Let's move

00:33:21.540 to the next one, which is simple simplicity. You've got to keep things simple. Easy. That's the only

00:33:28.560 answer you could have given right there, right? Yes. And there's no denying it. And we see complex

00:33:34.040 plans fall apart all the time. And we also see people that communicate their plans in a complex

00:33:41.180 manner, not being understood. And therefore, if people cannot understand what you want them to

00:33:47.020 do, they cannot execute. So you must give people direction in a simple, clear, concise manner so

00:33:53.600 that they can make it happen. Excellent. And then the last one you talk about in the book, which is

00:33:57.480 prioritize and execute. Yeah. Prioritize and execute is the simple fact that in combat, you're going to

00:34:02.760 have multiple things that are going to be going wrong at the same time. And when all these things are

00:34:08.840 happening, all these things are going wrong. So you've got wounded guys, you got, you got,

00:34:12.580 you're in a firefight. You've got your forces all split up. You've got friendly forces maneuvering

00:34:17.860 in the area that you need to coordinate with. You've got enemy forces that you're getting reports on that

00:34:22.480 you need to go and handle. You got all these problems taking place at the same time. And I

00:34:26.240 would see these young SEAL officers when I was putting them through training, when we put them in

00:34:29.540 these complex scenarios, they would, they would try and solve all the problems at once. So they put a

00:34:35.800 couple guys over there, a couple guys over there, a couple guys doing something else. And even their

00:34:38.720 own brain, they would, they would spread thin over these different situations. So they didn't

00:34:43.700 really understand any of them. Yeah. And so when you try and handle all these problems at the same

00:34:49.560 time, the fact of the matter is you don't get any of them taken care of. You don't solve any of the

00:34:55.940 problems. So what you have to do with prioritize and execute is take a look at all the problems that you

00:35:00.780 have figured out what the most impactful or important one is, and then go take care of that

00:35:06.620 problem. Focus your efforts on it. When you get done with that problem, you can move on to the next

00:35:10.420 one and so on down the line until you've solved the problems you've got to solve.

00:35:15.100 Yeah. And this makes complete sense. I, you know, one of the questions I get asked all the time is

00:35:19.840 how do I start a business? And I think what guys are really saying when we get into this question is,

00:35:24.480 you know, do I start with Facebook and then how do I incorporate? And then where do I talk about?

00:35:28.660 Do I start a podcast? And just like you're saying, we get so consumed with all the everything that's

00:35:33.740 out there in the world that they could be doing that they forget to take that first step, which is

00:35:37.420 to start having a conversation about what it is you want to talk about. Right. Yeah. And so that

00:35:42.240 makes complete sense what you're talking about here. Yeah. If you want to start a business,

00:35:46.220 start doing that thing. Nevermind the Facebook, nevermind the Twitter, start doing the thing that's

00:35:54.620 going to help people solve whatever problem they have in their world. And that's how you start your

00:35:59.160 business. And I think what the underlying theme is with this and correct me if I'm wrong, is that

00:36:04.260 I go back to that first part of the conversation we had. We talked a lot about ego, right? If you're

00:36:08.720 not covering and moving, if you're not keeping things simple, if you're not decent, decentralizing

00:36:13.320 your command, a lot of that comes back to that. You want the power and control. You're not willing

00:36:17.340 to give it to anybody else to accomplish the mission. Yeah, though, that's absolutely true.

00:36:21.360 You've got to, you've got to decentralize your command. You've got to make sure that you're

00:36:25.360 allowing other people to lead. And if you're, if your ego gets out of control, you won't be able

00:36:32.140 to do that. You won't be able to take the time or you won't be able to have the confidence because

00:36:37.020 that's what it is. If I'm in, if I'm insecure as a leader and Ryan, my subordinate starts to step up,

00:36:43.700 guess what happens to me? All of a sudden I start saying, Oh, I think he's going to make me look bad.

00:36:47.480 I think other people respect me and him more. Oh yeah. I'm going to feel threatened and I'm going

00:36:52.340 to now use my authority to squash Ryan and make myself look good and feed my disgustingly hungry 0.84

00:37:02.100 ego. Once you have confidence in your leadership, Ryan does something good. Ryan starts to step up.

00:37:08.980 Ryan starts to lead. I don't bat you down. I actually prop you up. I actually pull you up. I actually want

00:37:14.280 you to do better. I actually want you to lead the missions and I'm going to take a step back.

00:37:18.840 That's what a real confident leader does. Real confident leader isn't intimidated or doesn't

00:37:23.240 feel threatened when someone below them, above them, to the side of them, wherever in the chain

00:37:28.960 of command starts to do something well and starts to lead in a certain situation. It doesn't bother me.

00:37:34.180 I'm happy. I'm happy when people lead. It's great. That means I can focus on something else.

00:37:38.840 And there's a great quote that great leaders don't create followers. They create more great

00:37:44.480 leaders. And that's what you're talking about here. Yeah, that's affirmative.

00:37:47.760 This has been so valuable. Ton of information for guys to chew on. There's a ton more that we could

00:37:52.280 get into. But what I'm going to do at this point is say, guys, if you want to learn about this,

00:37:57.020 go buy the book. Because I promise if you buy the book and incorporate Jocko, which you

00:38:01.360 and Leif are talking about, it will literally change your life. I believe that it's that powerful.

00:38:06.460 So I really appreciate you, Jocko. As we wind down on time, I want to ask you a question that

00:38:11.520 I ask all of my guests. And the question is, what does it mean to be a man?

00:38:16.000 What does it mean to be a man? Well, for one thing, I do have three daughters. And I don't

00:38:21.360 think I would tell them anything different about how to act as a human, as I would tell my son,

00:38:27.980 who obviously is going to grow into a man. So for me, it's maybe not just about being a man,

00:38:34.240 but being a person. And for me, it's real simple stuff. I'm not going to say anything

00:38:40.000 profound here. Be disciplined, work hard, keep your word, help people, do a good job with what

00:38:47.900 you engage in, and don't let people down. Yeah, so powerful. And just like you said,

00:38:52.620 I mean, these are not gender specific. This goes across all genders. Every human being can

00:38:57.940 incorporate that into their lives, right? Absolutely.

00:39:00.140 Absolutely. Well, Jocko, if we want to connect with you, I know guys that are listening to this

00:39:03.120 are going to want to. They're going to want to buy the book. They're going to learn more about

00:39:06.160 what you're doing. What is the best way to connect with you and follow the work that you're doing?

00:39:09.840 Well, probably the book is available everywhere. Amazon, Barnes & Noble,

00:39:15.140 anywhere that they sell books, they have the book. And so that's awesome. Appreciate it.

00:39:20.600 And as far as connecting with us, I have a podcast called Jocko Podcast.

00:39:26.180 Jocko Podcast. It's been getting a lot of feedback, so people are stoked on it. We talk

00:39:32.160 about all this stuff all the time. It's about leadership. It's about war. It's about fighting.

00:39:36.840 It's about physical fitness. It's about failure. It's about everything. It's about life. That's

00:39:42.660 what it's about. It's about life, my perspective on life. So you can definitely check out the Jocko

00:39:48.720 Podcast. And if you want to find me on the interwebs, the most common thing for me to check is

00:39:55.400 Twitter. I'm at Jocko Willink. And I'm also have Facebook, which is Jocko Willink. And I forget how

00:40:04.340 you say it when it's Facebook, but if you search for Jocko Willink. And then there's also Jocko

00:40:07.840 Podcast on Facebook. And people submit questions through Twitter and through Facebook. And I try

00:40:14.740 and address those on the podcast. Or I just answer people. If they ask me a question and I've got an

00:40:20.500 answer to it that I can just give a simple answer on Twitter or on Facebook, I just answer them

00:40:23.800 and do my best to do that to spread the word.

00:40:27.660 Awesome. Yeah. And I know you're super responsive. You and I have responded back and forth a couple

00:40:31.640 of times. And we'll make sure we make all the links in the show notes, guys. So if you want

00:40:34.640 to connect with Jocko, those will be on the show notes page. So make sure you check that

00:40:37.580 out. You'll be able to connect with him. Jocko, I want to tell you, I appreciate you. I appreciate

00:40:41.700 your work. I appreciate your service to our country as well. So the feeling is definitely

00:40:45.720 mutual, especially as where we shared a little time in Ramadi. And I appreciate you taking some

00:40:51.320 time to join us and share some of your wisdom with us today.

00:40:54.060 All right. Thanks, man. Everybody that's out there, go get after it.

00:40:58.760 There you have it, guys. Navy SEAL Commander Jocko Willink on taking ownership of your life.

00:41:04.320 And here's what you need to do now. Go buy, if you haven't already, the book Extreme Ownership

00:41:09.180 and start implementing. Actually implement this stuff in your life. It's one thing to talk about

00:41:13.260 these concepts or listen to them in a podcast, but it's another thing entirely different to

00:41:17.800 actually start practicing what you learn. But in action lie the real results. And in the meantime,

00:41:23.180 go check out the Iron Council. Join an elite group of brothers inside this council. We're going to

00:41:27.860 push you. We're going to question you. We're going to test you. We're going to hold your feet to the

00:41:31.400 fire. And that is exactly what it takes to shake you out of the life that you might currently find

00:41:35.460 yourself in. So head to orderofman.com slash ironcouncil and join us right now. And again,

00:41:40.240 all the details for this show can be found at orderofman.com slash 060. Guys,

00:41:46.160 I look forward to talking with you next week, but until then take action and become the man

00:41:49.460 you were meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take

00:41:54.520 charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order

00:41:59.160 at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - May 10, 2016

OoM 060： Jocko Willink on Leading Yourself and Men

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