Order of Man - OoM 063： Approaching Work Like a Craftsman with Cal Newport

00:00:00.000 If you're anything like me, there never seems to be enough time in the day. When looking back,

00:00:03.380 you know you were busy, but what did you actually get done? My guest today, Cal Newport, author of

00:00:07.580 Deep Work, makes the case that most of us are participating in what he calls shallow work,

00:00:11.920 which is why most of us are busy, but not productive. We talk about the power of going

00:00:15.940 deep in your work, why you should be approaching your work like a craftsman, and how to live a

00:00:20.920 more efficient, productive, and satisfying life. You're a man of action. You live life to the

00:00:26.420 fullest. Embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back

00:00:31.940 up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:39.540 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day,

00:00:44.940 and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:49.720 Men, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am your host and the founder of

00:00:53.780 Order of Man. Welcome back after a long Memorial Day weekend. On that note, I hope that you took

00:00:58.560 some time over the weekend to spend time with the family and friends, but more importantly,

00:01:02.920 I hope you took some time to reflect upon the sacrifices of so many men and women

00:01:06.820 who have given the ultimate sacrifice to make this country great. Now, too often we get lost

00:01:12.600 in the expectation of summer and the barbecues and the sales and everything else that's going on again,

00:01:17.120 so I hope that you took the time to pause and give thanks to the men and women who make

00:01:21.060 every day possible. Now, if you're new to the show today, we talk about all things manly here,

00:01:26.460 how to be a better provider, how to be a better protector, and how to preside more fully or lead

00:01:30.960 more effectively in your life. And as always, we have an incredible guest lined up for you today.

00:01:34.780 The author of Deep Work, Mr. Cal Newport, is going to talk with us about the power of productivity

00:01:39.040 in deep work. But before I introduce you to him, know that all the links, the quotes,

00:01:42.980 the resources, everything that you want for this show are available at orderofman.com

00:01:48.120 slash 063. Also, make sure you join in the conversation we're having on our closed men's

00:01:52.660 Facebook group with over 3,800 guys now for a deeper conversation about this topic and so many

00:01:58.140 more at facebook.com slash groups slash orderofmen. Now, with all that said, let me introduce you to

00:02:03.300 our guest today, Mr. Cal Newport. He is an assistant professor of computer science at Georgetown University.

00:02:08.240 He specializes in the theory of distributed algorithms. He previously earned his PhD from MIT in 2009

00:02:13.840 and graduated from Dartmouth College in 2004. In addition to studying the theoretical foundations

00:02:19.280 of our digital age as a professor, he also writes about the impact of the technologies

00:02:23.780 on the world of work. This is what he's going to be talking with us about today. In his most recent

00:02:28.940 book, Deep Work, Cal argues that focus is the new IQ in the knowledge economy and that individuals who

00:02:35.640 cultivate their ability to concentrate without distraction will thrive. He is the author of three

00:02:41.240 other books on unconventional advice for students, how to be a high school superstar, how to be a

00:02:46.040 straight A student, and how to win at college. The how to student series has sold over 150,000 copies

00:02:52.140 since its inception. And Newport has been invited to speak on these topics at some of the country's

00:02:57.140 top universities, including Harvard, Princeton, MIT, Dartmouth, Middlebury, Georgetown, and Duke to

00:03:02.360 name a few. Today, he is here to talk about how to be more productive and efficient and why

00:03:06.300 incorporating the deep life is paramount to your success. Cal, what's going on? Thanks for joining

00:03:12.780 me on the show today, man. Sure. Hi, Ryan. It's cool to be here. Yeah. You know, I came across your

00:03:17.400 work several years ago. When did you release So Good They Can't Ignore You? That was 2012, the fall

00:03:22.560 of 2012. Okay. I must have, that's when I came across your work. I must have been at the airport and

00:03:27.940 came across your book, fell in love with the book, obviously. And then you've got this new book,

00:03:31.300 Deep Work, which is what I want to talk with you about today, which is really timely because I've

00:03:35.280 been putting out fires today. And as I get busier and busier with Order of Man, I feel like I'm just

00:03:40.680 consumed with emails and can't do anything that's actually meaningful to me. So I'm really excited

00:03:45.100 for this conversation today. Oh, yeah. And you're the sweet spot in terms of readers for this book

00:03:50.740 because you have your own company and therefore have massive amounts of autonomy, which means I can

00:03:56.400 talk you into all sorts of drastic changes to your lifestyle. So beware. Well, I'll be taking notes and

00:04:02.520 I'll just make sure that I implement the most important stuff because I think that's the advice

00:04:05.920 you'd give me, right? Yeah, I think the most important stuff, do that, forget the other stuff.

00:04:09.920 All right, perfect. So tell me a little bit about the premise. I mean, Deep Work, tell me what that

00:04:14.300 is because that's a term that you've kind of coined, if I understand correctly. So why don't you tell us

00:04:17.560 what that is? Yeah, you know, it's a new term for a really old concept. So Deep Work is what I name

00:04:22.700 the activity of focusing without distraction for a long amount of time on a cognitively demanding task.

00:04:30.500 So when you say like cognitively demanding task, what are you referring to? Like what would be an example?

00:04:35.780 So what I mean by that is you're really pushing your mind to its limits. You're trying to create something

00:04:40.160 at the very limit of your current capability. So I mean, this spans sort of the whole realm of work

00:04:46.360 from a computer programmer trying to write the best piece of code to a business owner trying to come up

00:04:53.000 with the sharpest strategy given the data, you know, before him or a woodworker, right?

00:04:58.500 Trying to create the sort of whatever the skill there is, but sort of the perfect carving or the

00:05:03.380 perfect sort of lathe work they're doing on the wood. It's where you're taking your skills and

00:05:08.080 you're trying to apply them at your highest level to produce the most valuable thing you can.

00:05:13.260 How do you determine that level? I mean, do you really know? I mean, this is always improving,

00:05:17.100 obviously, because where I was a year ago, even with interviewing guys like yourself,

00:05:20.840 I wasn't nearly to the level I am now. And that continues to get better. How do you know

00:05:24.940 what that level is? Well, I think the sense that you're giving it your all is what qualifies it as

00:05:29.080 deep work. You know, you're you're you're what you're doing. You're trying to give it your full

00:05:32.360 attention in the moment. It's not that you have to quantify what your level is. It's just I'm I'm

00:05:36.520 doing this all in whatever it is I'm doing right now. It's getting my full attention. It's not getting

00:05:40.480 90% of my attention while I'm also checking Facebook. I'm not taking occasional breaks to look at

00:05:44.740 other things. I'm just locked in to what this is trying to produce the best thing I can produce

00:05:51.140 whatever my current skill level is. It sounds a lot like a term that we run across quite a bit

00:05:56.700 on the interviews that we do, which is being present in the moment. Is that what you're

00:06:00.000 talking about? Is it different than that? It absolutely requires that, which is part of the

00:06:05.300 reason why deep work can actually be immensely satisfying, because it really requires by definition

00:06:09.940 that your full attention is going to one thing, which is a state of mind that is incredibly calming

00:06:15.420 and satisfying for the human being. But it's different than, say, let's say, being in a meditative

00:06:20.360 state, which is also being in the moment, because you're actually doing something. So you're in the

00:06:24.140 moment, but in that moment, you're giving your intense concentration to try to create something

00:06:28.320 valuable. Right. Yeah, this makes sense. And I think this kind of goes without saying, but I want

00:06:33.960 to hear from you what some of the common distractions are that people run against. So maybe we can just be

00:06:39.120 a little bit more aware of when it happens that, oh, this is a distraction. I need to get rid of this

00:06:44.560 in my life. Yeah, sure. Well, let me even back up and say the reason I'm even talking about

00:06:49.940 deep work is I think it is largely undervalued in our current society. People have missed the

00:06:58.100 reality that deep work is an immensely productive, immensely satisfying activity. If you become adept

00:07:05.980 at deep work and adopt what I call the deep life, where you really prioritize your ability to

00:07:10.080 concentrate, you train your ability to concentrate, and you go to sort of aggressive measures to make

00:07:15.800 concentration on important things at the core of your day. Now, if you embrace the deep life,

00:07:20.120 it's not about being a little bit more productive or a little bit less distracted. It's about being

00:07:24.880 massively more productive. You know, the people you look at and say, wow, that guy's a star.

00:07:30.680 Often, the underlying explanation is they're really adept at this skill. So just to set the foundation,

00:07:35.740 sort of the claim I'm going to make is that this skill is almost like a superpower, or to use the term

00:07:41.520 the economist used when reviewing the book, deep work is like the killer app of the knowledge

00:07:46.420 economy. So it is very different than how most people work. So this brings us back to distraction.

00:07:52.680 I think there's, there's, it's been almost a distraction to talk too much about distraction,

00:07:56.620 because when we focus on Facebook or Twitter, email, it's sort of ambiguous, right? People think

00:08:03.800 I am spending a lot of time on these things. And it doesn't quite feel right. But on the other hand,

00:08:08.280 there's some value in it. I mean, I got to answer emails from my clients, like this isn't bad. And

00:08:14.380 so it just gets in this ambiguous muddle. So what I'm trying to do is actually flip it and say,

00:08:18.640 instead of focusing on what's bad about the distractions, let's turn and talk about what's

00:08:21.920 so good about their opposite. That people and, you know, relevant to your audience, you know,

00:08:26.460 men, you know, out there of a certain age who maybe you're feeling a little anxious, a little

00:08:30.440 adrift, a lot of what you might be working for, looking for, you might find if you recommit your

00:08:36.040 mind, like craftsmen of time old, to taking a small number of things, and spending a lot of

00:08:41.040 time doing those things really well, you know, in some sense, that's like a manly approach to

00:08:45.400 professional life, and it feels a lot less adrift. So I've completely avoided your question.

00:08:50.800 No, but it but what you're talking about makes perfect sense. It actually reminds me of an

00:08:54.960 experience I had the other day, I did a video, and I posted on our Facebook group. And I showed them

00:09:02.560 your book, and I talked a little bit about the premise of deep work, I even suggested that you

00:09:06.380 were going to come on the show. This was after we had set something up. And one of the guys said,

00:09:11.860 Cal would not approve of you doing this right now, because if you were really doing deep work,

00:09:15.800 you wouldn't be on social media talking about it. But I don't think that's true. It's just

00:09:19.360 a time and place, right?

00:09:21.040 Yeah, I mean, so when it comes to social media, for example, my stance on it is not binary. So,

00:09:28.840 you know, I think a lot less people should use social media, but I don't have a binary stance

00:09:33.780 that is good or bad. Instead, what my stance is, is just adopt the same sort of mindset that craftsmen

00:09:40.420 have for millennia, where you're just careful about the tools you choose. You know, if you take a tool

00:09:46.140 into your life, that's going to have access to your time and attention, there should be significant

00:09:51.300 positive advantages to using that that outweigh the negatives, it can't just be there might be some

00:09:55.460 benefit I don't want to miss out. So for example, for you who runs a media company,

00:09:59.240 there's going to be substantial positive advantages to you having a social media presence,

00:10:04.420 because contrary to my writing, almost everyone uses it. It's a fantastic way for you to reach an

00:10:09.660 audience. But for someone else, say like a writer like myself, you know, I don't use social media,

00:10:16.300 and you could come up with a lot of small advantages I might get. But I look at it just like

00:10:21.200 any craftsman looks at tools and say you're not there's no substantial advantage here that will

00:10:24.660 outweigh the impact it'll have on my time and attention. That'll go to the list of everything

00:10:28.580 else that's kind of useful that I'm not going to waste my time on. Well, and I think there's

00:10:33.120 probably a point where you could be using in your example, social media, but you could actually

00:10:38.060 probably, especially if this is your career, like it is mine, do social media in a deep and meaningful

00:10:45.180 way. Like for example, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I block out my time on social media,

00:10:50.440 like I block out my posts, I know exactly what I'm going to talk about,

00:10:53.340 when I'm going to talk about it, I check social media at these times throughout the day.

00:10:57.340 So I'm very scheduled and articulate about what it is I'm doing on social media. Would that be

00:11:02.940 considered deep work? Well, it would be considered compatible with deep work. In other words,

00:11:07.540 you're you would be taking, you'd be taking an activity that's important to your business,

00:11:11.820 and you're finding a way to integrate into your life that it has minimal impact on the core activities

00:11:17.220 of your business, which is actually going to be concentrating deeply to produce the most valuable

00:11:21.540 possible content, you know, for your audience. So, so I think that's a great example of an element

00:11:27.900 of the deep life, which is having a lot of respect for your time and attention, recognizing that

00:11:32.720 unfractured time and attention is the most valuable resource you have in a knowledge economy,

00:11:36.560 and you have to treat it with respect, just like an athlete, you know, would treat his or her body

00:11:41.240 with respect. So did this kind of the opposite of this is the myth of multitasking? Is that what we're

00:11:48.320 talking about here? Yeah. And in fact, actually, that evolved. So the way the way I understand

00:11:52.960 that is we had in the early 2000s, the multitasking boom, where people had literally multiple windows

00:11:59.960 open. So it was like literal multitasking. I'm on the phone, my email inbox is open, and I'm writing.

00:12:06.340 All right, a lot of research came along in the mid 2000s, Clifford NASA's group at Stanford,

00:12:10.860 among others that said, Okay, that doesn't work. You can't actually do things simultaneously,

00:12:14.400 your mind's just shooting back and forth between them really rapidly and doing them all pretty bad.

00:12:19.020 So right, right. So at the end of the first decade of the 2000s, people moved away from it. I mean,

00:12:23.660 people for the most part, don't leave an inbox open on their desktop next to something when they're

00:12:29.360 writing. Most people don't like talk on the phone while trying to do something else. We don't really

00:12:33.320 multitask anymore. So people think they're single tasking. But the new research says, you have to worry

00:12:40.440 about attention residue. So if you're paying attention to one thing, and then you turn your attention to

00:12:45.880 another thing, that first target leaves a residue in your mind that can last 10, 15, 20, even 30 minutes

00:12:52.980 that reduces your cognitive capacity. Sure. So even though you're not actually multitasking, if you're

00:12:58.020 single tasking, but switching your attention, every 15, 20 minutes, you're still having most of the negative

00:13:03.700 effects. So what most knowledge workers do today, for example, is maybe they're trying to do something

00:13:07.540 hard, write an article, write a deck, you know, for a presentation they're doing. And maybe once every 10 or 15

00:13:12.720 minutes, they do a quick just check on their inbox, or a quick just check on, you know, ESPN, because there's a

00:13:18.680 day game. You just want to, you want to know what the score is. Right, right. Those just checks have a massively

00:13:23.820 negative impact on your cognitive capacity, because for the next 30 minutes, your mind is reduced, you do another

00:13:29.840 check before that even wears off. So we have sort of a whole culture of people out there working at a

00:13:35.680 significantly reduced cognitive capacity. So they're producing much less, they're producing at much

00:13:39.820 lower value output. And they're just feeling anxious and torn and unsettled, because the mind

00:13:46.480 is constantly, you know, exposed to this residue. That's why with deep work, you spend a long amount

00:13:51.780 of time locked into a single thing, you give yourself time to clear out all that residue. And once that's

00:13:56.960 clear, it's like you get to ratchet up to the next level, and you begin to produce at a level that is

00:14:01.680 much higher than what most people are doing during the typical day.

00:14:05.580 Yeah, it's really interesting. I had a conversation just a couple of days ago with somebody who was

00:14:09.200 talking about being busy. And I thought to myself, you know, we wear this busyness as a badge of honor,

00:14:13.940 but the goal isn't to be busy. I mean, that's not what I want. I don't want to be busy. I want to be

00:14:17.340 hyper efficient. I want to be hyper effective. And I think that's what you're talking about here. It's

00:14:20.760 not just running from task to task with your head cut off like a chicken and, and trying to get as much

00:14:25.040 done. It's being very effective and deliberate about the few things that you are doing.

00:14:29.600 Yeah, when people tell me, Oh, I'm busy, my first reaction is, Oh, I'm sorry.

00:14:34.200 Yeah, right.

00:14:34.620 This is someone said, I'm coming off the flu. Like, Oh, that sucks. I'm sorry, man. 0.99

00:14:39.660 Because here's, here's the reality. The market is ruthless. What the market is going to reward

00:14:44.600 are things that are rare, and they're valuable. So any activity that's not rare, valuable any activity

00:14:50.480 that you know, a 19 year old could do with no training, by definition is not gonna be valued much

00:14:55.180 by the market. But that's most of what people are doing when they say they're busy. So if you're

00:14:59.220 sending, receiving emails, you're you're cultivating your social media brand, you're you're reading

00:15:04.260 articles, you're you're you're jumping on coffees and setting up meetings, none of that is rare and

00:15:08.880 valuable. Anyone can do that. So by definition, you're not creating new value. On the other hand,

00:15:13.500 deep work, where you're taking multiple hours and concentrating as hard as you can to produce

00:15:18.720 something that uses the best skills you have at the highest level of your skills. What you're doing

00:15:22.680 there is trying to produce the most value you're capable of producing, you're doing something that's

00:15:25.980 hard, something that required your training, something that's making you better. So every

00:15:29.460 time you do it, you get better at it. So the next time you'll produce at a higher level,

00:15:32.960 that's actually taking how the market operates into account. So the efficient way to build a

00:15:39.140 professional life that's productive, and that gives you career capital, and that gives you autonomy

00:15:42.880 is to spend as much of your time as possible, producing things that are hard to replicate,

00:15:47.020 concentrating producing things that are rare and valuable. The more you're busy, really just means

00:15:51.600 the more time you're essentially producing stuff that the market could care less of. And that stuff is

00:15:55.400 not going to bring value into your life. Right. And then we wonder why we can't get ahead

00:15:59.300 financially, but we're not doing anything worthy of actually getting ahead.

00:16:02.380 That's right. No one ever made a fortune being good at using Facebook, but I can point to a couple

00:16:07.060 people that made a lot of money doing the deep work required to build the complex systems that run a

00:16:11.900 service like Facebook. And so this is the concept of specialization. I mean, in the economy that we are

00:16:18.500 now, I think there's a lot to be said for specializing and getting very good at one task and leaving all the

00:16:24.340 other stuff to somebody else or something else, maybe technology, and then just specializing,

00:16:29.300 niching down so that you can be more effective.

00:16:31.460 Yeah, be a craftsman. Just because we're dealing with bits more often than we're dealing with wood or

00:16:37.300 pottery clay doesn't mean that craftsmanship doesn't apply. And there's something immensely

00:16:42.200 satisfying about honing a craft, but there's also something that's immensely powerful about it. If you can

00:16:47.100 produce something at a high level that people value, you get to write your own ticket. And that's why, you know,

00:16:52.140 the deep life I promote is really about finding those things that you're going to double down on,

00:16:56.660 building your days as much as possible about honing this craft, and you're going to feel better,

00:17:01.960 and you're going to be a lot more productive, you're going to produce a lot more value, you're

00:17:04.840 going to get a lot more options. I mean, it's really hard. It's really hard to be a good sculptor.

00:17:10.100 It's really hard to, you know, be a good iron worker. I mean, it's really hard. But we're meant for

00:17:14.700 that. I mean, the mind of the man does not mine hard. Hard is good. You know, hard gives you

00:17:20.380 something to feel satisfied about, you know, something that you can have a cold beer at the

00:17:23.420 end of a hard day and feel good about it. I mean, so hard is good. And a lot of what people are doing

00:17:28.480 in this age of busyness is you're seeking convenience, you're seeking quick hits, you're

00:17:33.920 seeking shortcuts. And that's just a recipe for listlessness.

00:17:38.780 So how does a man who's listening to this find that meaningful work? I mean, you talk about being a

00:17:44.320 craftsman, and I know there's a lot of guys out there who feel the exact opposite of that in their

00:17:49.360 current station, especially when it comes to the work they're doing. How would you suggest that we

00:17:53.360 start finding and exploring what it is we're meant to do and then doing it deeply?

00:17:58.280 Yeah, well, I recommend, you know, focus on craftsmanship as the goal and don't worry so

00:18:03.240 much about the particular craft. You know, this was actually, this was the subject essentially of

00:18:07.860 the book I wrote before, So Good They Can't Ignore You, where I essentially made the case that we spend

00:18:13.980 too much attention trying to figure out in advance what we're meant to do.

00:18:17.340 We and that the passion that we have that we're hardwired, you should discover this hardwired

00:18:21.900 passion, and then go find a job that matches that passion. And that's really a nonsense idea that

00:18:27.520 that's applicable to very few people in the economy that if you if you study people who love what they

00:18:32.220 do, nine times out of 10, it was the reverse pattern. They for whatever reason, started developing

00:18:38.740 a craft, it could have been circumstances, it could have been random, it could have been they stumbled

00:18:42.800 into something. But as they became better and became more of a craftsman, the passion followed.

00:18:48.340 So I say, look at your current situation, see what skills you already have. See what skills are

00:18:53.860 interesting to you you already have and say, let me go there. And I want to start honing those,

00:18:57.860 which means I'm going to start training my ability to concentrate and start training my ability to do

00:19:01.320 deep work. And then I'm going to start carving out and protecting more and more time in my life to do

00:19:06.460 deep work at this craft. And I'm going to start to make some changes in my general lifestyle to sort

00:19:12.720 of tell myself and communicate to myself that I take this ability to use my mind like a tool

00:19:17.260 very seriously. Right. And that's what I found in my own life is that I can even make mundane tasks

00:19:22.620 interesting and engaging to me when I figure out how to do it more efficiently or how to do it a

00:19:27.460 little bit better or how to have fun doing it. Right. And I think this is something all of us can

00:19:31.900 probably work on a little bit more. Yeah. And also what happens is once you actually start

00:19:35.320 prioritizing deep work and focusing on a small number of things and doing them very well,

00:19:40.220 you gain the confidence to eliminate a lot of things that have been a drag at your time and

00:19:44.060 attention and that were a little bit important, but not a lot important, but that you never would

00:19:48.480 have jettisoned before. So, you know, I've told this story a few times now where, you know, I know

00:19:53.620 someone who's in a very similar business to yours in the sense that they run sort of an online,

00:19:58.160 you know, digital media property and they were drowning in email. And this was this was eating away

00:20:03.260 their time and they just felt overwhelmed by it. And his solution was he just got rid of the email

00:20:10.060 address from the website. And then he put up a PO box and you really need to reach me. You can,

00:20:14.840 you can get to a PO box. And he found that, wait a second, there was like some kind of important

00:20:19.740 stuff that sometimes came through email, but writing really good content and doing really good

00:20:24.100 interviews is like 99% of what makes my company successful. So my, this notion that I was doing

00:20:29.020 really poorly at that, or really degrading my ability at that, the stuff where I'm really doing

00:20:32.900 craft and producing value so that I can make a few people happy or have a few opportunities come

00:20:37.400 through the transom, the math and it makes sense. And there was zero effect on the, on the bottom

00:20:42.260 line. And if anything, his audience grew because now he was able to, you know, he can really concentrate

00:20:46.480 on producing the stuff that his audience of hundreds of thousands can see, as opposed to making the,

00:20:51.880 you know, a hundred people a month that he might've had a meaningful email response to,

00:20:55.260 uh, happy. So once you actually start adopting this deep craftsman type mindset, there's lots

00:21:00.300 of things in your life that you realize are there because they maybe might bring a little bit of

00:21:04.200 value. And you say, that's not enough. I'm really interested in doubling down on the things that

00:21:08.660 can be massively positive. This almost reminds me of the era of cell phones where, you know,

00:21:14.720 you hear somebody say, well, I can't not have my phone. What if there's an emergency? It's like,

00:21:18.120 well, what if there was emergency 10 years ago? We figured out a way to deal with it.

00:21:20.980 Yeah. Yeah. I've had this argument about movie theaters. Why not just, uh,

00:21:25.740 block cell phones in the movie theater? So people can't do the text messaging, right? So you don't

00:21:28.780 have the screen glare and people say, you can't do that. Like, what if there's an emergency or the

00:21:32.420 babysitter needs to reach you or, or like, you know, there's something happens and you have to

00:21:36.340 call the police. And I'm thinking we've had movies theater since the 1920s. Like I don't remember,

00:21:41.960 I don't remember my childhood, like being really tentative to go into the movie theater. Like,

00:21:46.100 well, wait a second. Like, what if I can't be reached at every moment during the movie? You know,

00:21:50.380 parents used to, you know, you would sneak out and halfway through the movie and call the babysitter to make

00:21:54.320 sure things are okay. You know? Uh, so I'm with you on that, that we were quick, especially with

00:21:58.760 new technologies. There's usually a phase we go through that last a few decades where, uh, the

00:22:03.020 new technology comes in as disruptive. We go nuts with it and then it kind of settles down later and

00:22:08.740 we figure out, okay, wait a second. So every possible use of this is not necessarily the way

00:22:13.220 to go. We have so many technologies in the last 25 years that we're just going nuts. The way we use

00:22:18.140 email at work, the way we use cell phones, social media and its current state. I mean,

00:22:22.460 a lot of this is just the, the early stages of the, the, the future of the sort of digital

00:22:27.260 connected world. We're going to look back at this in 30 years and say, all right, we're going a little

00:22:31.280 bit crazy. I remember back in 2015 where like people were walking on the sidewalk and the phone

00:22:36.220 and walking in the cars and we're, we're worried, you know, we'll look back at it with, with

00:22:40.440 some amusement I would predict. Men, let me just take a quick pause to tell you about our elite

00:22:46.780 mastermind, the iron council. This is a group of dedicated, committed and ambitious men. They're

00:22:51.500 working to take their lives to the next level in the areas of relationships, their health,

00:22:55.880 their wealth. And specifically this month, we're talking about self mastery. We want you involved.

00:23:01.100 Now we're close to 100 members and we've got some big things, some big plans happening.

00:23:06.020 This topic that we're going to be covering this month of self mastery is such a critical thing to

00:23:10.380 cover because if you can master yourself, what I call the natural man, you will be better equipped

00:23:15.320 to accomplish everything that you set out to in life. More often than not, our biggest enemy

00:23:19.300 and obstacle is the man in the mirror. So if you feel like maybe you're sitting on the verge of

00:23:23.380 great things, but just can't seem to break free, I'd have you consider that maybe you're in the way.

00:23:28.600 And our goal is to help you along with the other 90 men of the iron council, learn more about yourself,

00:23:33.040 get out of your own way and achieve all that you set out to do. So you can check that out at

00:23:37.160 orderofman.com slash iron council. We look forward to seeing you on the inside.

00:23:41.120 Now let's get back to my interview with Cal.

00:23:44.880 You know, my wife and I have this debate every once in a while, somebody will knock on the door 0.52

00:23:48.440 at our home when we're watching a movie or doing something else. And the kids immediately jump up.

00:23:52.640 And my thought is I'm not obligated to answer the door just because you knocked on it. So I'll tell

00:23:57.140 the kids, just sit down. We're doing family night. Whoever needs to get ahold of us, if they really

00:24:01.460 need it that bad, they can do it another day. And so my wife and I have a debate about this because

00:24:05.180 she's under the belief that, well, no, you have to answer the door if somebody knocks and you're

00:24:08.140 home. And it's maybe a small example of what you're talking about. But certainly I can see

00:24:13.060 how that makes us more effective with our time. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a deeper thing going on

00:24:18.540 here, which is, you know, the reason I advocate the sort of lifestyle changes that if you want to

00:24:22.580 embrace a deep life, you're actually very selective about anything that can have access to your time

00:24:26.980 and attention. I think it's cognitive junk food. It's like being an athlete who, you know,

00:24:31.920 eats Oreos outside of training. You know, if you use your mind to make craft, you should be away

00:24:36.080 from it. And part of the reason I make that argument is that, you know, all these things

00:24:39.720 have some value. None of them are that bad. But what they add up to is this sort of fragmented

00:24:46.020 sense of attention that's just really incompatible with depth. So if you spend your evenings with your

00:24:51.400 attention just fragmented between all these different devices, even if the next day you hike to a

00:24:56.280 cave without any technology and you're stuck there till the tide goes back out and you're,

00:25:00.540 I'm just going to write and concentrate, you're not going to be able to do it that well.

00:25:04.120 They're connected, right? If most of your time you're not treating your attention with respect,

00:25:09.680 you're not going to be able to get a lot out of it when it comes time to actually concentrate.

00:25:12.520 And we have a lot of different research that backs this up, that you can't be sort of

00:25:17.060 fragmented attention at some parts of the day and then hope to be able to concentrate your

00:25:20.980 attention and produce real value at another time. Just like you're not going to be a professional

00:25:24.980 athlete if outside of your hard training, you know, you're smoking and you're drinking and you're

00:25:30.020 eating the Oreos, right? Like your whole lifestyle has to be fit if you're going to be a professional

00:25:33.380 athlete. Well, if you're going to use your mind to create this very satisfying, autonomous,

00:25:37.740 value-producing deep life, you have to treat your mind with respect throughout the whole day.

00:25:42.900 And everybody's heard the quote, you know, the way you do one thing is the way you do everything,

00:25:45.840 right? Yeah.

00:25:47.100 So you are pretty practical in the book about who this applies to and maybe some circumstances

00:25:52.760 where it doesn't, but you identify some areas, some industries where this actually makes

00:25:57.760 a lot of sense. Can you help walk us through that a little bit?

00:26:00.520 Yeah. The deep life and deep work, it's not for everyone. I mean, for some people it's just too

00:26:05.180 hard, right? They just don't want to, they're comfortable with being busy and constantly having

00:26:11.520 a distraction. If you're always distracted, it kind of keeps you away from dealing with some

00:26:14.880 deeper issues. And some people are happy with that, but there's also some where deep work is just

00:26:20.500 not going to be that valued. So if you're in an industry that's truly built almost entirely upon

00:26:26.000 communication. So if you're in sales or if you're in, you know, lobbying or something like this,

00:26:31.760 the ability to concentrate for long periods of time, it's not that important. If you're the CEO

00:26:36.320 of a major company, it's probably more effective for you to hire smart people to do deep work. And

00:26:41.720 you can pass judgment on the ideas they come up with. That's going to be a more effective use of

00:26:45.660 your time because a lot of things have to go through you. You need to be making decisions. But I think for

00:26:51.600 any non-entry level job where you are trying to use skills to create things that are valuable,

00:26:57.400 deep work is probably going to be an incredibly important tool in your toolkit.

00:27:01.680 Yeah. And I think the example that you use is Jack Dorsey, right? And you talk about his ability

00:27:07.120 to be so successful, yet he is not somebody who's doing deep work.

00:27:10.960 Yeah, right. So he's a CEO of two companies and I tracked down some magazine profiles about his typical

00:27:15.960 day. There's no deep work in Jack Dorsey's typical day. It's an incredibly fragmented day. And I said,

00:27:21.040 that's probably makes sense. I mean, what he's doing is trying to keep these companies afloat,

00:27:26.840 which means he holds the vision for the companies. And all these decisions have to go through him so

00:27:31.760 that he can make decisions in a way that's consistent with the vision. So the company can

00:27:35.000 actually move forward with some direction. So that's an example of a job where deep work is not

00:27:40.180 that applicable. On the other hand, I find a lot of people try to make the claim that, well,

00:27:45.200 in my job, I don't think deep work is that applicable. But if you dig a little deeper,

00:27:48.740 the reality is the way they currently do their job leaves no room for deep work. But if they

00:27:55.080 reconfigured it so that deep work was at its core, they could actually be much more successful.

00:28:00.320 So in a way, just a little bit delusional about the reality of their desire, their need,

00:28:04.740 I should say, to do deep work.

00:28:06.240 That's right. Yeah. So a lot of people find that their job is almost entirely consisting of moving

00:28:10.620 information back and forth in an email inbox. And so they, oh, I don't need deep work.

00:28:14.520 But my retort is you should be really scared because what you're doing is you're basically

00:28:19.260 acting like a human network router. And I can tell you as a computer scientist, the network routers are

00:28:23.960 the commodity piece of the network stack. That's the easy part. That's the part that's cheap and

00:28:28.220 easy to automate. You should be really worried if most of what you do is move messages back and

00:28:32.940 forth because there's not a lot of value in that. So you better find where you can bring value and then

00:28:37.020 start aggressively honing your ability to concentrate and producing high value things. Because email moving,

00:28:42.980 this is going to be the first thing that's automated as technology gets better.

00:28:46.740 I mean, it is currently, we have auto responders and everything else that are starting to replace

00:28:50.300 the ability or the need for somebody to send an email to actually sit down and write an email out

00:28:55.220 and send one. Yeah. You know, I just did a panel with the CEO of a new company that's going to launch,

00:29:02.420 I guess, in the fall. But they've spent three years and $30 million training this AI to set up

00:29:09.060 meetings for you. And it's an amazing technology, right? Well, you basically just say, like, if you

00:29:14.380 wrote to me and said, can we do a meeting? I would reply to you at CC with an email address as AI and

00:29:19.820 just say, yeah, I want to set up a meeting with Ryan. Tuesdays and Thursdays are good, but it has to

00:29:25.160 be in the afternoon. And this AI takes over and does all the back and forth. And you wouldn't even know

00:29:29.300 that you were talking to an AI. So anyways, the point is, you spend most of your day sitting and

00:29:34.560 receiving emails five, six years from now, there's going to be some bot in the cloud that can do that

00:29:39.740 all for you. So then you have to ask, all right, if you took that all off my plate, what would I be

00:29:44.400 doing with my time? And what you need is an answer to that question. That is, I would be working deeply

00:29:50.120 on doing this incredibly valuable thing. And a lot of people don't actually have that answer yet.

00:29:54.360 And that should be worrisome. How do you identify that? Well, again, you have to say,

00:29:58.360 where do I have skills? And okay, I already have this foundation of skills where I can produce

00:30:03.980 things that are valuable. I need to make that my craft. I need to spend a lot of time honing those

00:30:08.020 skills. I need to do as much work as possible in states of deep concentration where I can get the

00:30:12.620 most out of my mind so I can get better and better and better. And I don't sweat too much what those

00:30:16.640 skills are so much as either you're going to have a craft and you can thrive and be satisfied in the

00:30:21.960 coming economy, or you don't really have a craft and you're going to be automated outsourced or

00:30:25.760 replaced. It's going to be this divide, which I think is going to be relatively extreme when it

00:30:30.640 comes to fruition. So what do you say to the guy? And even this, I can hear this in the back of my

00:30:35.100 mind coming to me as I'm having this conversation with you. That is, okay, I understand the value in

00:30:40.740 deep work. I can see how I'd be more efficient if I'm focusing on a few things and I'm going deeper

00:30:44.860 rather than wider, but emails still have to get answered. And I still feel like, okay, I've got to put

00:30:52.220 some social media posts out there because this is part of the marketing, the branding and the

00:30:55.520 things that I'm doing. How do we adjust for that and compensate for that?

00:30:59.340 Well, I think the key question to ask is, for your job, what is the ideal ratio of deep work hours to

00:31:06.960 shallow work hours in the typical week? So if you work for yourself, you need to do reflection and

00:31:12.380 have an answer to that question. And then you work backwards from that answer to put in place the

00:31:17.440 habits, the systems and the scheduling that allows it to work. If you work for someone else,

00:31:21.600 my recommendation is that you have this conversation. It's a respectful conversation.

00:31:26.040 You say, here's what deep work is. Here's what shallow work is. Both are important, right? Both

00:31:31.660 have to happen. But I think I want to clarify, what should my ratio of deep to shallow work be?

00:31:36.120 And your boss or your supervisor, have the conversation, have them sort of say, this is

00:31:40.440 what I think it should be, and then measure and talk about it. Hey, I'm falling well short of it. So I told

00:31:45.880 the story recently of someone who worked in marketing at a Silicon Valley startup. And they

00:31:50.400 had this culture at this place where if you weren't immediately accessible, people assumed you were

00:31:54.880 slacking off. And they were using Slack, ironically. And so if you weren't on Slack, you were considered

00:32:00.120 to be slacking off. And he said this was crazy, because what he did for this company required deep

00:32:06.480 work. The more concentration he could give it, the more value he generated for the company. So

00:32:10.260 he read this suggestion of mine, and he sat down with his boss, and they had this conversation.

00:32:14.200 And he said as soon as he brought it up, it was immediately clear that it would be absurd for

00:32:18.820 her to answer, I want you to just do shallow work. I just want you communicating internally. 0.93

00:32:23.580 Because they were paying this guy a lot of money to think deeply and produce, in this case, these

00:32:29.040 well-researched articles they use for marketing purposes. So once they actually nailed down that

00:32:33.220 he should be doing like a 50-50 ratio, they could just work backwards from this agreement. And quickly,

00:32:38.020 they settled on the solution of he was going to have this two-hour chunk every morning and a two-hour

00:32:41.960 chunk afternoon, where it was well promulgated and well understood among his team that he was

00:32:46.580 unreachable. And he does his deep work. So four hours of deep work a day. Everyone knows they

00:32:51.800 can't contact him then, so they just plan around it, right? Oh, if I really need something from him,

00:32:55.380 maybe I should grab him before he goes into one of these sessions. Completely non-disruptive. And yet,

00:33:01.400 he's now spending 50% of his time doing deep work. So it's probably having orders of magnitude more

00:33:06.740 value produced for the company. So what's the deep to shallow work ratio that makes sense? And then

00:33:11.360 you work backwards to say, what do I have to do to hit here? Do I have to be more efficient with my

00:33:15.700 shallow work to hit this target? Probably. Do I have to eliminate some shallow work to make some

00:33:20.440 room? You know, probably. Do I have to have some pretty strict rules for how I schedule my deep work

00:33:25.220 to make sure it gets done? Probably that as well. But it gives you targets to push off against to

00:33:29.900 actually start making changes in a way that's more guided.

00:33:32.300 And I imagine, too, there's a lot of experimentation in that. Because to come up with

00:33:36.960 a random number, like I should be doing 70% deep work and 30% shallow work would probably

00:33:41.520 not really make sense unless you experimented without actually working. And then, like you said,

00:33:46.880 measuring and tracking the results of that. Yeah, measure, track, discuss. And if you work for

00:33:49.940 yourself, then it's you reflecting on the data. The other thing I want to emphasize is that deep work

00:33:55.900 is a trained skill. And again, this is something a lot of people get wrong. They think of it like a habit,

00:34:00.680 like flossing their teeth, something that they know how to do. I know how to concentrate. I just

00:34:04.200 got to make more time to do it. The reality is the ability to concentrate is imminently trainable.

00:34:09.760 And the more you train it, the better you get. So if you really want to get the true deep life

00:34:14.140 experience, there's going to be a period where you have to be pushing your ability to concentrate,

00:34:18.540 just like you'd be pushing your muscles if you're picking up a new sport. And it's important because a lot

00:34:24.120 of people, when they first try to add more deep work systematically into their life,

00:34:27.840 they find it to be very frustrating and unproductive. It hurts their head. It feels

00:34:32.320 uncomfortable. They don't actually produce much work. Their mind rebels against the lack of novel

00:34:36.640 stimuli. And it's tempting to step back and say, I'm not producing much here. I'm not a deep work

00:34:41.360 person. But if you understand that it's a trainable skill, you have the more realistic reaction,

00:34:46.880 which is, okay, I'm not really good at this yet. So I better get training because I really want to

00:34:51.380 get the value that comes with being really good at concentrating. And so this just motivates me to

00:34:55.740 train all the harder. This actually reminds me of my training. I'm currently training for

00:35:01.820 a Spartan Agogi, which is a 60 hour event. It's a team building event in Vermont I'm going to.

00:35:07.820 And as I'm training, I'm doing a lot of running. Well, I typically run with my earbuds in,

00:35:11.900 I'm listening to a podcast or I'm listening to a book, whatever it may be. And I've deliberately

00:35:16.160 not done that. I've deliberately gone on runs without any music, without any podcast,

00:35:22.340 just me and my mind and me running. And I know when I started, it was really,

00:35:27.740 really difficult for me to do. I was all over the place. My runs were shorter than they normally

00:35:31.680 were. But as I've gained and developed this muscle and the skill of concentration and focus and being

00:35:37.740 able to just be with my thoughts, I've noticed myself getting stronger in those areas.

00:35:42.000 You get better at it. You know, I did a similar practice right around 2010, 2011. I started this

00:35:48.000 practice. I call it productive meditation, where I would go for walks and I would have a single

00:35:53.360 professional problem. So I'm a theoretical computer scientist as my day job. So it'd be like a math

00:35:58.220 proof. And I would try to hold it in my head and make progress on the problem in my head.

00:36:03.280 And whenever I noticed my attention wander, I would just notice it and bring the attention back.

00:36:07.560 And it was really hard at first, but I walked to where I was a postdoc and back from my apartment.

00:36:14.440 So I had this walk every day. So I was like, I'm just going to do it every day,

00:36:16.840 every day. And I got better and better at it. And then, you know, after a couple of years of

00:36:21.860 doing this, I now do quite a bit of work in my head. I do quite a bit of work in the woods,

00:36:25.280 actually, because I can, you know, hold the problems in my head and make progress just as

00:36:28.720 easily. It's just trainable. You know, so it's a, it's a great insight. And as you're probably

00:36:34.220 experiencing, once you get better at it, it can be an incredibly satisfying and productive

00:36:38.020 experience to just be able to lock into something and give it your full attention. So it's worth

00:36:42.500 training because it's a, it's a very nice experience that a lot of people, especially young men,

00:36:46.740 these days really have no life experience with. They just don't have a good experience of ever

00:36:52.160 being truly deeply locked into something. Because if you've had something in your hand beeping at

00:36:57.900 you since you were a teenager, you know, your brain has never been exposed to what it really

00:37:02.840 feels like before you locked into something. And so like, once you've trained that experience,

00:37:06.140 it can be pretty addictive.

00:37:07.860 Now you've talked a little bit about and skim the surface on these, but I want to get real

00:37:11.560 practical and some, some maybe steps or strategies somebody can employ to, to have a little bit more

00:37:16.260 deep work. One of the things that you mentioned was making yourself less accessible, but are there

00:37:20.720 some other things that we can do to get a little deeper into the current work that we're doing?

00:37:25.120 Yeah. So there's really three categories of things that I think are important. Uh, if you want to adopt

00:37:29.860 more of a deep life, I'll just mention three categories real quick and then we can get practical.

00:37:33.960 Um, but the first is, uh, so actually developing your ability to concentrate. So like we were talking

00:37:39.840 about training that, like a muscle, there's practical things like productive meditation,

00:37:43.160 going for runs without anything in your ears that just help you in general, embracing boredom is

00:37:48.660 important. You have to be away from stimuli a lot every single day, because if your mind is trained

00:37:55.840 to get a little bit of stimuli, every time it's a little bit bored, you're never gonna be able to do

00:37:59.320 deep work. The second type of category is, uh, how you actually structure your work day such that

00:38:06.080 deep work shows up regularly and is protected. So you need some sort of scheduling system that

00:38:12.320 makes sure that when you're going to do deep work is very well identified and that you're not just

00:38:17.060 trying to figure out on the fly. Maybe I should do some deep work right now. You also need some sort

00:38:21.320 of rituals or habits built around these deep work sessions to try to get as much as possible out of

00:38:27.080 them because deep work is very hard to do. Right. So you really have to give it a lot of support.

00:38:30.860 And then the final type of things, which are important for getting more depth into your life

00:38:34.860 is these lifestyle changes. I'm talking about changes you make to your general lifestyle that

00:38:39.340 basically communicate to yourself. I'm now taking my time and attention seriously. So this is where I

00:38:44.920 get into, you know, convincing more people to quit social media or to spend the day leaving their phone

00:38:50.680 at home, these types of efforts to sort of communicate to yourself. I take my attention seriously. So if you can

00:38:55.760 get some practical habits going in each of these three categories, that's the right formula I found

00:39:01.980 for really succeeding with getting more depth into your life.

00:39:05.860 Yeah, I can see that. I know for me, one simple thing that I've been able to do in my life is just

00:39:09.740 turn off the notifications on my phone. Not that I still can't access the social media or the email

00:39:14.400 I need to, but just turning off the notifications has allowed me more time with the things that are

00:39:18.860 actually important. Yeah. And sometimes like that's like step one. And then step two would be,

00:39:22.740 well, just take the apps off the phone, right? I mean, if you, if you need to, you need to access these

00:39:26.740 things, you can put aside time and when you're at your computer and then that way you don't have the

00:39:30.440 thing to glance at, you know, step three might be actually quit most of the services that are engineered

00:39:36.540 using the same logic as Las Vegas casino devices to capture and distract you. I mean,

00:39:42.720 right. Why would you, why would you put a slot machine in your pocket if you're worried about a gambling

00:39:46.580 addiction? Well, the same thing to have some of these services that are being engineered by attention

00:39:51.740 engineers to capture your attention and convert your time and attention into, you know, virtual

00:39:56.000 quarters for these companies. If you're trying to take your ability to focus seriously, don't put

00:39:59.880 in your pocket. Just like if you wanted to be an athlete, don't have a bag of Doritos in your gym

00:40:04.060 bag, right? I mean, it's right, right. Forget about the discipline, just eliminate the even desire or

00:40:09.240 ability in this case to, to, uh, cheat at all. Yeah. This is for example, why I've never had a social

00:40:13.240 media account. It's, it's not because I feel that I'm better than it. It's because I don't trust

00:40:17.100 myself. They're too good. Interesting. They're too good at it. The people who are building these

00:40:21.240 companies, uh, they're too good at building these things sticky. They have billion dollar market

00:40:25.560 caps. That means they have a lot of money to spend on figuring out how do we get time and

00:40:29.740 attention? Just like slot machines are engineered to get as many quarters out of your pocket into the

00:40:34.340 slot machine as possible. They're using the same principles for the social media apps, except for now

00:40:39.480 the quarters are minutes of your attention and bits of your personal data. You know, I find it to be a

00:40:45.300 scary thing. And so just like, I just won't go to Las Vegas on vacation. I'm not going to put

00:40:49.560 Facebook in my pocket if I make a living thinking about things. Yeah, that makes sense. Cal, we're

00:40:54.380 winding down on time here. I do want to ask you a couple of additional questions. One I prepped you

00:40:58.180 for. And the question is, what does it mean to be a man? Yeah. I mean, to me, manhood is about

00:41:04.520 taking the things that you value and transforming them into character by actually acting on those values

00:41:13.300 day in and day out. Love it. Just a matter of taking action. Yeah. That you, anyone can say

00:41:18.580 they value something, but character, you know, manly characters where your life actually reflects

00:41:22.960 it. Awesome. Cal, if we want to connect with you, want to buy the book, we want to learn more about

00:41:27.680 the work you're doing. It's going to be difficult to get ahold of you on social media. So how do we

00:41:32.280 track you down? Right. It's true. I'm hard to contact by design. I don't have any social media

00:41:37.380 accounts. I don't have a general purpose email address. I make no promise to be accessible or respond to

00:41:42.080 things, but my writing's easy to find. So, uh, you know, my books are on Amazon or in Barnes and

00:41:48.140 Noble and calnewport.com has my blog where, you know, every week I'm on there talking about writing

00:41:55.320 about thinking about issues of how you build a sort of meaningful, successful life in a digital age. So

00:41:59.960 my ideas are easy to find. I'm a little bit harder. Well, we'll make sure we link that up in the show

00:42:04.960 notes. So anybody who's listening can access that stuff. And I want to tell you, I feel honored that you

00:42:10.500 would take time out of your day to come talk with me and the rest of the guys. So I really appreciate

00:42:14.280 you. I appreciate the work you're doing. I can already see how between so good they can't ignore

00:42:18.880 you and also deep work, how this is making me more effective and efficient in my work. So I appreciate

00:42:23.940 the work that you're doing. Well, thanks. And you know, I appreciate the chance to come on and

00:42:27.100 talk to your audience. I mean, I, this idea that there's a, an audience out there that wants to get

00:42:33.080 more out of life, that's willing to put in the work to shape their life into something more

00:42:36.200 impactful. I think that's a powerful thing. So I'm, I'm honored to be able to come on and have

00:42:41.360 a talk with your audience. There you have it guys. Cal Newport making the case for deep work.

00:42:46.340 I've read the book and I can tell you from experience that when you start incorporating

00:42:49.760 the concepts Cal outlines in your life, you will be more productive. You'll be more efficient and

00:42:55.200 satisfied with what you are accomplishing throughout the day. So go get the book, read it, apply it.

00:43:00.800 In the meantime, go check out iron council. It's an elite group of brothers inside of again,

00:43:05.740 in the iron council, they're going to push you. They're going to question you. They're

00:43:08.560 going to test you and they're going to hold your feet to the fire. And that's what it takes to shake

00:43:12.180 you out of the life you might currently find yourself in. So head to order of man.com slash

00:43:16.060 iron council. Join us right now. And all the details for this show in the meantime can be found

00:43:21.200 at order of man.com slash zero six three and join in the conversation again that we're having about

00:43:26.080 masculinity in our Facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash order of man guys. I look forward

00:43:31.500 to talking to you next week, but until then take action and become the man you were meant to be.

00:43:36.500 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be

00:43:41.640 more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - May 31, 2016

OoM 063： Approaching Work Like a Craftsman with Cal Newport

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