Order of Man - OoM 074： Team-Building Strategies from the Special Forces and GoRuck with Jason McCarthy

00:00:00.300 Self-made man. It's a term that gets tossed around a lot and while there's certainly an exciting element to being a man who creates his own luck, the reality paints a different story.

00:00:09.140 In fact, no man ever made it on his own. Today I talk with Jason McCarthy, retired Green Parade and the founder of GoRuck, about communication, building rapport, and team-building strategies from the special forces in GoRuck.

00:00:20.920 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient. Strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:45.860 Men, what's going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler and I am your host and the founder of Order of Man. As always, I'm glad you're here with us today. This is a show about being a man. So if you are one, you're in the right place. We're going to be talking about leadership, relationships, self-defense, being valuable and respected, leading a family, masculinity, and just about any other topic that's important to you.

00:01:06.640 Now, I usually wait until a little bit later in the show to mention this, but we've literally got three spots remaining, guys, for our inaugural Order of Man uprising experience. This is a three-day event in the mountains of Southern Utah designed to help you become a better leader, a better protector, and a better provider in your family, your business, and your community.

00:01:24.960 So if you're interested in the details, go to orderofman.com slash uprising to get all of the information. And since I'm a veteran myself and I value the sacrifices veterans have made on our behalf, I am also offering a discount to our veterans. Just shoot me an email at ryan at orderofman.com if you're genuinely interested in the experience and you're a veteran. I'll get you the details on that.

00:01:45.220 So enough of that. We've got a great one lined up for you today from another veteran, a Green Beret, in fact. Know that you can get all of the show notes and the links for this show at orderofman.com slash 074.

00:01:56.480 And then as always, make sure you join in our closed men's Facebook group for a deeper conversation on the topic of team building this week at facebook.com slash groups slash Order of Man.

00:02:06.300 Now, let me introduce you to my guest today. He is an Army Special Forces soldier, a.k.a. Green Beret and the founder of GORUCK, Mr. Jason McCarthy.

00:02:13.640 Jason enlisted in the Army after 9-11 and spent time serving our nation in Iraq. After leaving the military, he founded a company, GORUCK, based on the lessons of team building, communication, and rapport he learned in training and in war.

00:02:24.840 Along with his team of military members, GORUCK's goal is to serve as a voice for good, employ more veterans of special operations than any organization outside of the U.S. military, and build a bridge between the military and civilian worlds.

00:02:38.760 Jason, what's up, brother? Thanks for joining me on the show today.

00:02:41.240 Thanks for having me.

00:02:41.960 I'm excited to talk. GORUCK is obviously something I've been interested in, and I know a lot of the guys that are listening know and are familiar with and probably have participated in GORUCK challenges.

00:02:50.700 So tell me a little bit about the work that you're doing with GORUCK and why this is so important for men to know about.

00:02:56.560 So really, when people say GORUCK, what they're usually talking about is the challenge.

00:03:00.580 We also build and manufacture gear, but that's sort of a little less known secret, I suppose.

00:03:05.940 And the challenge is based on the principles of special forces training.

00:03:10.820 So my background, I was a Green Beret, and I got out of the military.

00:03:15.440 Life was a little tough, and I just sort of went back to the fundamentals.

00:03:18.720 And what I knew was my time in special forces, the camaraderie that was there, and pushing ourselves past a little bit more, and training really hard, and playing really hard.

00:03:28.160 And sort of bottled that culture up and brought it, I guess it became GORUCK, and specifically through the GORUCK challenge, which is, you know, there's different lengths now, or lengths of time, I should say.

00:03:41.040 But the classic one is about 12 hours.

00:03:43.520 And, you know, you go overnight, and it's a team event, and a combat-decorated veteran of special operations guides and builds your class into a team.

00:03:52.540 So it's not the easiest thing you'll ever do, we'll just say that, but it's also doable, you know?

00:03:58.680 Yeah, and you don't want it to be easy.

00:04:00.420 I think this is something that guys are really craving, and I've got some ideas as to why that is.

00:04:04.800 But why is not only GORUCK, but other endurance events, other obstacle course racing type events, why are these gaining so much traction in your mind?

00:04:13.480 I think that there's a lot of things that we do in life that are not really all that manly.

00:04:20.580 Like, I sit in front, I'm a keyboard ninja most days, right?

00:04:24.660 Yeah, I'm with you on that.

00:04:25.620 I sit here, and I, like, look, man, that's the state of the world we work.

00:04:28.860 You know, I wake up, play with the kids, I come to work, you know, I walk monster at lunch for 15 minutes, I come back in, I keyboard ninja some more, you know?

00:04:36.880 And if you look at the evolution of man, right, this is not really what we were intended to do from a body standpoint.

00:04:43.680 Now, from a mind standpoint, I find some of the stuff, the business side of GORUCK very challenging, as a lot of people find work very challenging.

00:04:51.640 They find, you know, like, solving strategic problems is not easy, right?

00:04:56.180 Sure, sure.

00:04:57.540 But in everyone's soul, everybody has this longing to get out and be human.

00:05:03.220 And so, you know, that means you go out, like, we were hunter-gatherers in the evolutionary sense.

00:05:09.820 And, you know, that's part of it, is that I think the human spirit rejects a lot of what we do in front of computers all day, and it wants us to get out and do something more awesome.

00:05:20.980 And so, these endurance events are really speaking to our souls, our evolutionary souls.

00:05:27.500 And it just so happens that I think the best part about GORUCK is the camaraderie that it forges, you know, the community that we've built out of the GRTs or the GORUCK tops who have done our events.

00:05:41.560 It's because it's got nothing to do, you don't communicate via email, you know?

00:05:46.240 Sure.

00:05:46.480 You're there with the people to your left and the people to your right, and that's in every – like, that just speaks to people's souls.

00:05:54.160 Yeah, I mean, this makes total sense.

00:05:55.500 There's a quote that I often quote from John Eldridge.

00:05:58.700 If you're not familiar with it, I think this describes why what you're doing is so popular and also so important.

00:06:03.360 And the quote is, deep in his heart, every man longs for a battle to fight, an adventure to live, and a beauty to rescue.

00:06:10.080 And I think you guys are fulfilling that battle and that adventure component that men are really craving and looking for that they don't get in modern society.

00:06:17.480 Yeah, it's like this is why, you know, what's the greatest movie of all time?

00:06:20.720 It's easy, The Princess Bride. 0.75

00:06:22.140 It encapsulates everything that you just brought up, you know?

00:06:26.680 Sure, yeah.

00:06:27.540 And, yeah, I mean, look, I think that's exactly right.

00:06:29.920 People want to be around other people.

00:06:31.900 Newsflash to iPhone X is not going to make you happy.

00:06:35.300 But time doing awesome stuff with people will.

00:06:39.660 They don't – I mean, you see, you know, there's a lot of Facebook ninjas out there as well, you know?

00:06:44.000 And everyone online, you know, Reddit ninjas, whatever you call it.

00:06:47.460 And everyone hates everything and hates everyone else.

00:06:49.740 And the world's going to hell if you listen to all of these, you know, all of this just keyboarding that goes on.

00:06:55.760 We have so many diverse types of people that come to our events and we just don't see that, you know?

00:07:03.280 You bring people together in the real world and you do something awesome and it's spiritual.

00:07:10.100 So are you not seeing that – maybe that complaining, that keyboard ninja or keyboard warrior type thing that we hear a lot about because GORUCK is the type of event that's going to attract the people who aren't going to complain?

00:07:21.280 Or is this literally like changing the way people view their life?

00:07:24.720 Oh, no, no, no.

00:07:25.520 We see it online still, some.

00:07:27.740 We just have an awesome community of people that still – we still have bonded over these events that we've done together.

00:07:37.580 What I'm saying is at the actual event, we don't care if you're a young old black, white, pink, polka dotted. 0.95

00:07:44.660 We don't care who you love, who you have sex with, you know, like that doesn't matter. 0.76

00:07:51.400 What matters is that you're there together.

00:07:53.860 So we have, you know, everyone from every conceivable background has done our events and we just don't see the infighting, you know?

00:08:02.120 We just don't see it.

00:08:03.000 It's more of a people thing than like something to argue about or debate about, you know?

00:08:10.640 Yeah.

00:08:11.040 And it sounds like you're trying to get through those obstacles together.

00:08:13.640 I mean I've done – and I think I mentioned to you I've done some other obstacle courses.

00:08:16.560 I was in, you know, basic training, of course, and my military service had a lot to do with the team building and the team camaraderie that, again, we just don't get.

00:08:25.900 And I think it's really valuable that people do get this.

00:08:29.480 I want to back up because you said for a minute, and I didn't want to skim over this, that life was tough when you got out of special operations, special forces.

00:08:36.980 So I'm really curious about why it was so tough and what that actually looked like for you.

00:08:42.100 Yeah.

00:08:42.300 So it was rock bottom and, you know, it was bad.

00:08:48.140 And, you know, I was served from 2003 to 2008.

00:08:52.080 And by the way, we'll cut to the chase.

00:08:54.480 Like I don't feel sorry for myself at all.

00:08:56.860 Sure.

00:08:57.000 Like it's been – this has been awesome.

00:08:59.640 I mean I'm living the dream.

00:09:01.500 It's just at that period of time, it felt really bad.

00:09:05.540 You know, I was enlisted after 9-11 because of 9-11, you know, and served from 2003 to 2008.

00:09:12.780 And I was married that whole time to a – I was married to a diplomat in the State Department, Emily.

00:09:18.100 Okay.

00:09:18.400 And she was in West Africa and I was in Iraq and, you know, like we were planes, trains, and automobiles to see each other when we were in training.

00:09:29.380 I mean it was just like a blur of chaos.

00:09:33.580 We never lived together for five years and I'm pretty sure that we had the first ever long-distance Abidjan-Côte d'Ivoire, Baghdad-Iraq marriage, right?

00:09:45.800 How was that for some long-distance for you?

00:09:47.380 Yeah, yeah.

00:09:48.360 Interesting for sure.

00:09:49.400 And so, you know, I had skipped to the end and I was like – the plan was, hey, I'm going to join her in the State Department or do something similar to that.

00:09:58.420 And so I was going to get out of Special Forces, which ended up being the greatest job in the history of the universe, right, to be on a Special Forces team with those guys and get to do that stuff.

00:10:10.360 And I didn't really understand how awesome that was going to be.

00:10:13.460 So it was really hard to get out even though I did it for me and Emily.

00:10:18.280 You know, I did it for us.

00:10:19.980 And, you know, we just sort of patched the last five years.

00:10:23.720 Like we were just hanging on to hope that when we made it through this time that, you know, I was pretty sure I was going to die when I went to war.

00:10:31.360 You know, she was in a war zone as well, you know. 0.61

00:10:34.860 They say you grow apart.

00:10:36.100 Like we just were apart.

00:10:37.640 And so I skipped to the end and I got out and I moved to Africa with her. 0.88

00:10:40.680 And I was on a plane back to America like with a crumbling marriage within three months.

00:10:46.340 That was bad.

00:10:47.300 You know, we she she eventually moved back to D.C., you know, after however much longer there, you know, six, eight months.

00:10:54.340 And we sort of tried to we tried to work it out, you know, did marriage counseling and all that stuff that you should do, because you learn a lot about yourself in that process, too, no matter what.

00:11:05.020 Right.

00:11:05.220 It's it's never, you know, they teach you it's 50 50.

00:11:09.120 Well, sometimes it's 60 40 you sometimes it's 40 60, but it's it evens out, you know, and I had to accept this massive amount of failure in my life.

00:11:19.880 You know, I went from being this barrel chested freedom fighting guy with just a job to do.

00:11:26.540 And I knew I was making a difference and I was serving America.

00:11:30.380 I was serving the guys to my left and the guys to my right.

00:11:33.360 I believed in the cause and America is an awesome cause to get to believe in in a life.

00:11:39.860 And I feel grateful for that.

00:11:41.620 And I still obviously do.

00:11:43.720 But it was just really hard, the amount of failure going into that.

00:11:47.900 And then, you know, we had a dog and we fought some about who was going to get the dog.

00:11:52.380 Right.

00:11:52.840 I mean, even as like we're still trying to kind of stay together, it was like two ships passing in the night by then.

00:12:00.240 It just wasn't meant to be anymore.

00:12:02.180 And I ended up getting Java, you know, that was like I was just depressed, you know, I didn't really have a lot of purpose.

00:12:09.920 I didn't know what I was going to do in my life.

00:12:11.400 I just had this huge failure, you know, called separation, divorce, all that stuff.

00:12:16.580 I didn't, you know, have a job even applied to some schools and stuff like that.

00:12:21.140 But my dog got me out, got me about, you know, made me more social because, you know, I can default to, hey, I'll just sit here in my room and do things my way or mess around online or or do read a book or watch TV and just be not myself.

00:12:37.200 Like I can default to that if I guess, you know, you put me in that type of an environment in 2008, 2009.

00:12:44.160 And I did.

00:12:44.980 And my dog got me out and about.

00:12:46.460 And slowly, GORUCK became sort of the bridge back to the civilian world that I needed. 0.86

00:12:53.300 And it turns out that other people were also looking for that bridge.

00:12:57.680 So I was like helping to build a bridge as I was walking across it.

00:13:02.340 I know a lot of guys.

00:13:03.300 I really appreciate you sharing that, Jason, because I've gone through similar struggles in my marriage.

00:13:07.820 I know a lot of guys listening to this have gone through similar struggles or are going through it right now who are probably at the bottom of that pit and they don't see a way out.

00:13:17.120 How were you able to do that?

00:13:20.640 I mean, you talk about with the pup and being out and being social.

00:13:24.340 How did it transpire into becoming GORUCK?

00:13:27.340 Is this just something that you did because you needed to be active and then people joined you?

00:13:31.480 Talk to us a little bit about that process.

00:13:33.860 Yeah.

00:13:34.160 I mean, I think, look, when I got out of the military, I tried all sorts of kind of self-therapy, right?

00:13:40.680 And by self-therapy, I mean I'll stay at my condo and drink beer and not look at anybody today, right?

00:13:48.160 You know, I've felt really sorry for myself, you know, stuff like that, which just isn't me either.

00:13:54.960 And I think that ultimately, you know, when you're – it's what they teach you in the military.

00:14:00.320 If something's going really, really badly, just focus on the right now.

00:14:06.040 Like do something, anything to make it just a little bit better.

00:14:11.040 You know, if life's going great, then start planning how you're going to conquer the world.

00:14:15.100 But don't focus on the fact that you think you should conquer the world if you're at rock bottom.

00:14:20.380 It's like for me, when I was there, going and taking Java out, my dog, was – that was my first step.

00:14:27.860 Hey, Java's got to go out, right?

00:14:30.320 Right.

00:14:30.520 Right, right.

00:14:31.180 It doesn't – the dog doesn't care if you're depressed.

00:14:33.440 I was pretty bad, but it wasn't so bad that I wanted to clean up, you know, Java's poop inside the condo or, you know, do it that way.

00:14:42.200 Like Java needs to go out.

00:14:43.840 And he was insistent.

00:14:45.380 He's like, look.

00:14:46.620 He would look at me and just start barking.

00:14:48.460 He's like, look, we're going out now.

00:14:51.200 And, you know, slowly what started to happen is that I got back to my roots.

00:14:56.060 And my roots are I like to work out.

00:14:57.700 I like to hang out with people.

00:14:59.040 I like my friends.

00:15:00.720 You know, I like to go out and tie one on on a Friday night occasionally, you know, stuff like that.

00:15:06.060 And it's like Java's the one that got me out.

00:15:09.120 Sometimes you've got to ask for help.

00:15:10.680 Sometimes help kind of presents itself.

00:15:13.280 And so Java very much was – I mean, I grew up with dogs.

00:15:16.760 I'm just – I'm just a huge dog person.

00:15:19.380 And so Java was there and made all the difference for me in just personally getting me out.

00:15:26.020 And, you know, so then I started rucking a little bit with Java and, you know, because that's the roots of what I did in the military, right?

00:15:34.160 Like that's the foundation for my military fitness was rucking.

00:15:38.500 You know, that slowly but surely became what transpired with GoRuck.

00:15:44.160 Yeah.

00:15:44.600 I mean it's really cool to see.

00:15:45.760 So when were you in Iraq?

00:15:47.780 I was in there in 2007.

00:15:49.680 So it was – I would have been there anyway, but it was, you know, the surge and stuff.

00:15:53.900 It was a bad time there.

00:15:55.600 Yeah.

00:15:55.880 I actually served in Ramadi in 2005, 2006.

00:15:59.260 So not too long before you got there it sounds like.

00:16:02.140 Got it.

00:16:02.440 Got it.

00:16:02.680 Yeah.

00:16:02.840 I was in southern Iraq.

00:16:04.580 So I flew into Baghdad and spent a little bit of time there.

00:16:07.140 But then I was in Basra as the Brits were pulling out.

00:16:10.160 It was horrible.

00:16:12.240 And then Nazaria was a little bit less bad. 0.94

00:16:15.200 But, you know, there was a couple interesting nights we had there.

00:16:18.400 So that's all in the Shia South. 0.99

00:16:20.920 Right.

00:16:21.240 Okay.

00:16:21.740 I guess my next question is now that you are, you know, doing GoRuck, you've got this going, you're helping people.

00:16:27.760 What are some of the lessons that you think guys are learning as they are participating in these events and these challenges?

00:16:34.260 And how are they able to then translate this over into their everyday life?

00:16:38.840 I think we just all need to be a little tougher.

00:16:40.820 When it comes down to it, we all need to be a little tougher.

00:16:44.100 And we need to be given some exposure to what that looks like.

00:16:48.920 And once you show someone like that, I mean, it's guys, it's also girls that do our events as well.

00:16:55.700 So people show up and they're posed with things that are very difficult that require them to be physically tough.

00:17:04.400 And then they meet that challenge.

00:17:06.200 And then they exceed their own expectations for that challenge.

00:17:09.340 You know, once you have confidence in life, you can do anything.

00:17:13.140 Of all the things that are really important in our chat here, every man, every woman, we all have a breaking point.

00:17:21.000 Every single one of us.

00:17:22.220 You can't.

00:17:22.700 If you take away enough support structures from somebody, they will collapse.

00:17:28.140 It's just, it's a fact.

00:17:29.220 It doesn't matter how great of a warfighter you are or what else you do in life.

00:17:35.480 No matter what you do, you are not immune to hitting rock bottom.

00:17:40.560 Right?

00:17:40.760 And so what I think it's important to do is to teach people how to be more confident.

00:17:47.620 And it's not a book.

00:17:49.320 You can't read it in a book.

00:17:50.820 Sorry, it isn't going to happen.

00:17:53.040 Wouldn't that be nice though, right?

00:17:54.040 Yeah, you can't get it from listening to this podcast.

00:17:57.200 Again, sorry.

00:17:58.600 Right?

00:17:58.800 It doesn't work that way.

00:18:00.860 You've got to get out there and actually do something.

00:18:03.780 Because you might be able to convince yourself that you learned something great from a book.

00:18:08.600 Oh, this book was fantastic.

00:18:09.980 It taught me everything I need to know.

00:18:11.580 Like, is life knowing or is life doing?

00:18:14.580 And you've got to get out there and do it.

00:18:16.920 And so the Go Rock Challenge is where you come and you do something awesome.

00:18:20.680 It's tough.

00:18:21.340 It's hard.

00:18:22.200 You have to overcome something.

00:18:23.560 And when you show yourself, because you really, really deep down, you can't trick yourself.

00:18:29.220 You either are, you know, confident, ready to face the world or you're not.

00:18:33.380 It's really, really tough to trick ourselves like that.

00:18:36.360 We teach people how to be more confident.

00:18:40.740 Quick mid-podcast break, guys.

00:18:42.400 I mentioned it earlier, but we've got three spots left to our inaugural Order of Man Uprising

00:18:46.460 September 15th through the 18th.

00:18:48.340 Now, I began a journey seven years ago to be a better man in my family, in my business,

00:18:52.160 in my community, and I want to share with you in a live experience the lessons I've learned

00:18:56.200 along the way.

00:18:56.820 So between the tactical scenarios we're going to be running to survival situations, executing

00:19:01.400 your perfect day, you're going to walk away with tools and resources and strategies, everything

00:19:05.960 that you need to excel in life and live like a man. 0.63

00:19:09.560 Everything is completely included.

00:19:10.940 Food, lodging, events, instruction, swag.

00:19:13.580 And all you have to do is get to Las Vegas by September 15th at 11 a.m.

00:19:17.200 And we are going to take care of the rest.

00:19:19.300 We're filling out these spots up quick.

00:19:20.680 Like I said, we only have three spots available.

00:19:22.520 So go to orderofman.com slash uprising to reserve that.

00:19:25.640 Now let's get back to my interview with Jason.

00:19:29.520 Yeah.

00:19:30.040 And I've seen myself even going into some of these events, whether you walk away and you've

00:19:34.680 completed this to the ability or the desire that you had walking into it, or you don't

00:19:40.160 complete it, or you walk away, maybe not as satisfied with the results of your performance.

00:19:44.160 I always walk away from an event like this feeling better about myself and or having a very clear

00:19:50.620 path about how I need to improve moving forward.

00:19:54.000 Yeah.

00:19:54.560 So it's like this, right?

00:19:56.220 I mean, sometimes the guys that I served with will have these conversations about are leaders

00:20:02.400 born or are they taught, right?

00:20:04.220 I mean, this is sort of the age old thing.

00:20:06.640 And what I would say is, yeah, there's some genetics to it, right?

00:20:09.600 Some people are predisposed to certain things, but everybody, you know, sometimes you'll get

00:20:14.560 a guy and he'll say basically, look, leaders are just born, period, the end.

00:20:19.940 And we're like, look, that's fine.

00:20:21.740 But here's what I, and then my question to them is, okay, so day one, when you showed up

00:20:25.940 to the special forces qualification course, right?

00:20:28.300 It's selection versus when you earned your green beret, when were you a better leader?

00:20:33.460 When were you more confident, right?

00:20:35.240 Like, when did you feel better about taking on the world?

00:20:38.780 And everybody, of course, says, when I graduated the special forces qualification course, not

00:20:43.860 when I showed up.

00:20:44.760 Right.

00:20:45.120 And so in its own way, the GORUCK challenge, endurance events, any, the challenges in your

00:20:50.640 life, it doesn't have to be an endurance event.

00:20:53.420 The challenges in your life, if you face them, if you face them head on and you tackle them,

00:20:58.300 them and you solve them and you feel good about that process, then you gain in confidence,

00:21:04.980 you gain in your ability to lead yourself or lead others through difficult times.

00:21:09.700 And that becomes cumulative.

00:21:11.540 And then you're able to just bring that back to your, to the rest of your daily life.

00:21:16.480 I want to back up because you talked about support structures.

00:21:19.180 You said that if you take away all of those support structures, at some point, you're going

00:21:23.180 to reach that breaking point.

00:21:24.300 You're going to crumble.

00:21:25.160 What are the support structures in your life?

00:21:27.160 What do those look like for you?

00:21:28.760 Interestingly enough, Emily and I ended up getting back together.

00:21:32.700 Right.

00:21:32.800 So we've got one kid together and another one on the way.

00:21:36.860 She had a daughter in the time when we were not together.

00:21:41.160 Right.

00:21:41.380 So welcome.

00:21:42.500 Welcome to life is messy.

00:21:43.880 Right.

00:21:44.340 That's right.

00:21:44.920 That's right.

00:21:45.600 She's a huge support structure for me.

00:21:47.420 My family, huge support structure for me.

00:21:49.880 My dog, Monster, you know, because Java passed away a few years ago and I got another dog,

00:21:56.260 of course, Monster.

00:21:57.340 So he's a huge support structure for me.

00:21:59.720 And then it's just the people that I work with, people that I spend the most time with

00:22:03.500 in my life.

00:22:04.160 My routine and stuff are really big support structures for me.

00:22:08.120 And that became kind of an evolution from my time in the military.

00:22:14.180 Right.

00:22:14.340 Because the support structure that was really vital back then for me was the guys that I

00:22:20.400 served with in the military.

00:22:21.720 Yeah.

00:22:22.020 And I lost that when I got out.

00:22:24.620 And so it made me feel all sorts of bad.

00:22:28.100 Like I felt like a quitter and I felt like I was giving up on the mission.

00:22:32.060 You know, they had to go back and fight a war and I wasn't going to be there with them,

00:22:35.740 you know, and that was hard.

00:22:37.300 So that was the specific support structures at that time, you know, and at that time,

00:22:41.760 Emily and my marriage was just crumbling and, you know, and I was half a world away in

00:22:46.920 Africa and then I was ashamed because I was in the middle of a failure, stuff like that.

00:22:51.340 So it's, it gets really easy.

00:22:53.500 It's like bad stuff never comes in ones.

00:22:55.360 It comes in twos and threes.

00:22:57.040 It just rains down, you know?

00:22:59.180 And so for me, man, like my daily life is, is pretty good.

00:23:03.560 And the support structures that are around it are pretty good now.

00:23:06.160 But I certainly have had to pay some, I had to pay the piper a little bit to get to where

00:23:11.140 I am now.

00:23:12.180 Have you ever had anybody in your life who you maybe thought was a support structure or

00:23:17.160 that you relied on that ended up it not working out?

00:23:20.340 And what did you consciously do about that situation?

00:23:23.280 It's hard because, you know, we're always kind of changing, you know?

00:23:26.880 I mean, anybody that's been married 40 years and say has made it look easy is it's, it's

00:23:34.280 not been easy, right?

00:23:35.460 Just because they've stayed together.

00:23:36.380 Yeah, they're blinded by that time a little bit.

00:23:38.300 Yeah.

00:23:38.760 And, and so people grow and people evolve.

00:23:41.600 And the question is, is do we evolve with the people that are, that are around us?

00:23:46.860 The hard part has been, you know, for instance, people have come into GORUCK and people have

00:23:51.080 left GORUCK and almost overwhelmingly, it's all been on great terms.

00:23:55.700 It's just, you know, people want to go back to school or they want to do something else

00:23:59.740 or they want to start something else.

00:24:01.020 But it hurts when people leave, you know, people that we spend a lot of time with in our,

00:24:06.400 in our daily lives.

00:24:07.380 And they, they become part of the fabric of our lives.

00:24:10.760 And then something else different happens in their lives and they need to move on.

00:24:14.760 That's hard.

00:24:15.480 And I've had to do that.

00:24:16.440 I've had to do that as well.

00:24:17.680 Like the stages of your life, you have your friends in high school and college and the

00:24:22.380 military and wherever you're sort of, you hang out, you have people that you run in

00:24:28.640 those circles.

00:24:29.180 And it's always been really hard for me.

00:24:31.720 I mean, I never, I never liked goodbyes and that's just because, I mean, I read some about

00:24:36.400 your, your story about not growing up with a huge father figure.

00:24:40.020 And for me, my story is, is why I hate goodbyes so much is because I grew up with divorced

00:24:45.580 parents that were, you know, my father lived in Ohio.

00:24:48.200 My mom got remarried, but lived in, we lived in Florida and all over the place.

00:24:53.400 We moved a bunch, you know, Texas a bunch of times, Tennessee back to Florida and, you know,

00:24:58.180 Florida's home. 0.81

00:24:58.760 But goodbyes were always what I would do from one parent to the next.

00:25:03.820 And I'd fly to that parent and then I'd come back.

00:25:06.300 And, you know, it was like leaving was hard.

00:25:08.820 I mean, as a kid, I would cry on the plane there and then I'd cry on the plane back, you

00:25:13.380 know, and by the time I get there, you know, the tears are dry and I'm ready to face, I'm

00:25:17.220 ready to face life with whichever parent I'm with.

00:25:19.920 So there was probably some good that came out of that.

00:25:22.580 I mean, it made me sort of adaptable and resilient, but it made it really hard to want to say

00:25:27.140 goodbye to people.

00:25:27.900 Like I just, I just dread it.

00:25:29.280 I don't like airports much for that reason and I don't really like it.

00:25:33.360 So, so it has been hard.

00:25:35.920 I haven't really burnt any bridges, you know, that I know of at least, you know, when people

00:25:40.620 that they're at least nobody's telling you, right?

00:25:42.220 Yeah.

00:25:42.600 You know, so it's not always perfect, but I don't, I can't think of anybody in my life

00:25:47.600 that I wouldn't, it's like I refuse to talk to them or something.

00:25:51.560 Right.

00:25:52.300 Yeah.

00:25:52.560 And, and so those, those actually have been kind of hard for me though, is when people

00:25:58.080 just, they just leave GORUCK for whatever reason, or, you know, a friend goes and lives

00:26:02.600 somewhere else and they're not around as much anymore.

00:26:04.700 And that stuff's really hard for me.

00:26:07.020 Yeah, that makes sense.

00:26:07.880 And I'm, I mean, I'm glad you talk about this because, and even go back to your, your

00:26:11.640 previous answer about building a team and a structure.

00:26:14.100 I think you're right that a lot of guys in the military have this support structure and

00:26:17.820 have their team that they're working with.

00:26:19.320 And all of a sudden they're transitioning into civilian life and they don't have that

00:26:23.240 same level of camaraderie, the same teamwork or the same reliance upon other people and

00:26:29.460 other people relying upon them.

00:26:30.800 And I think that's part of the reason based on what I know about you and your guys' mission

00:26:34.180 within GORUCK is to, you know, bring these veterans on and give them that support, but

00:26:39.580 then also give that to civilians as well.

00:26:41.420 So they can develop and build teams as well.

00:26:43.160 Yeah, absolutely.

00:26:44.960 I mean, we, we've got a lot of special operations guys that lead our events and, you know, I

00:26:51.420 know for a fact they're in the same boat that, that I am when I lead our events, which is

00:26:56.920 I get a lot more than I give. 0.88

00:26:59.040 And I, and damn, if I don't try though, you know, I try to, to lay it all out there, all 0.86

00:27:05.240 the lessons, all the team building, all of the, everything I can possibly give, but it 0.92

00:27:10.920 was, it was difficult and it's difficult to transition into the civilian world because

00:27:16.480 there's just that lack of camaraderie.

00:27:19.100 And so leading our events and being a part of the GORUCK community is, has been the best,

00:27:24.680 most therapeutic part of GORUCK, both for me.

00:27:28.780 And I think for tens of thousands of people, I mean, it's not about the log.

00:27:32.480 It's not about the pushups.

00:27:33.740 It's not about the miles even.

00:27:35.800 I mean, the fitness element is good.

00:27:37.540 Like get out, be active in life.

00:27:39.120 Trust me, that's, that's going to serve you well.

00:27:41.320 Sure.

00:27:41.880 But be active together and do it as part of a team is, is really sort of, there's some

00:27:47.680 magic in there.

00:27:48.720 And so getting out and sharing my stories and doing that kind of stuff has been therapeutic.

00:27:54.820 You know, I mean, I wish, I wish there weren't a stigma attached to it.

00:27:59.720 Right.

00:28:00.260 And, and in some circles there still are, like you're supposed to be a, a quiet professional,

00:28:04.880 which basically means you should be silent most of the time.

00:28:08.680 And I think that it's a little, it's a little bit too bad when, you know, you see the A&E

00:28:14.300 film crew with some 95 year old veteran of Omaha beach and Normandy or anywhere.

00:28:22.240 Right.

00:28:23.100 And they're telling their story for the first time or something.

00:28:25.600 And it's like, they had to keep that bottled up for that long.

00:28:29.300 And it was really hard.

00:28:31.260 I guarantee you, cause I don't have a millionth that story, but I got, I got a story that I

00:28:37.680 got my story in it and it matters to like me because it matters to my ability to function

00:28:43.200 in the world.

00:28:44.660 And so the telling of that story has been very therapeutic and the giving back to Americans

00:28:51.380 in America via GORUCK has been, has been a very welcome thing for me and for all of

00:28:59.440 our cadre.

00:29:00.600 Yeah.

00:29:01.140 And I know even with me, as I, as I continue to tell my story about the way that I grew

00:29:05.380 up and the things that I've learned, I know that's been, that vulnerability has been powerful

00:29:09.580 for me, even in building our team and our community.

00:29:12.660 I'm really curious about some of the things that you guys are doing inside of the events

00:29:15.800 to build teams that will help translate over into somebody going about their everyday life.

00:29:22.080 Well, I mean, there's, there's a lot of different, we talk a lot about leadership and, and we talk

00:29:27.900 a lot about, um, rapport building.

00:29:31.480 You know, we talk a lot about the phases of team building and really the, the fundamentals,

00:29:37.180 if you break it down, uh, war and business and life, there's a lot of things that are

00:29:43.120 very similar.

00:29:44.340 And, you know, if, if I say, Hey, you know, you've got this 2000 pound log and you've got,

00:29:50.260 you know, 20 people to carry it.

00:29:52.660 I mean, you've got to understand what the problem is.

00:29:55.000 You've got to visualize a solution.

00:29:56.820 You've got to over-communicate that throughout the life cycle of moving that log.

00:30:01.240 And then you've got to adapt to win.

00:30:03.020 I mean, you, you've got to put people on that log.

00:30:05.740 You've got to put a system in place to rotate them, right?

00:30:09.160 And then as people get tired, you've got to rotate them in and out and make sure, because

00:30:15.000 if you're in charge, you can see they can't, right?

00:30:18.560 And so you've got to, you just got to like, leadership is not press a button and walk away.

00:30:24.360 It's constant engagement with the people that you're leading.

00:30:27.800 And so over-communicate, which by the way, is not really possible, right?

00:30:31.540 I mean, you can try, but you know, 10 minutes from now, it's a different situation.

00:30:35.740 So you've got to keep communicating.

00:30:38.360 Sure.

00:30:38.580 It's always changing.

00:30:39.500 Right.

00:30:39.780 This is the same thing that we, we see at GORUCK every single day about, you know, Hey,

00:30:44.640 you've got a problem.

00:30:45.560 You know, this product isn't selling or why is this event in that event?

00:30:50.280 Are we communicating it correctly for what it is?

00:30:53.420 You know, there's too many questions coming in about what's this all about?

00:30:57.840 I don't get it.

00:30:58.520 You know, there's, and so it's like, it goes back to what's the problem.

00:31:02.060 You know, you've got to define your intent and define success.

00:31:05.380 And so if you've got a boss and he says, Hey, do this, right.

00:31:10.060 You need to make sure that you understand what success looks like.

00:31:13.140 So if I'm sitting there saying, Hey, carry that log until I say stop, then that's a pretty

00:31:18.160 clear success, right?

00:31:19.400 Like just carry it till forever.

00:31:21.900 Right.

00:31:22.460 Right.

00:31:22.840 But if it's, Hey, you've got this much time to get it here.

00:31:25.840 It's this many miles, blah, blah, blah.

00:31:27.560 I mean, it's, you can get a little more information.

00:31:29.900 Sometimes business is the same thing.

00:31:32.160 Love is the same thing too.

00:31:33.700 Right.

00:31:34.020 I mean, sometimes people, when they bring problems to you, it's, it's more about being

00:31:39.540 heard than you solving their problems.

00:31:41.780 Sometimes it's, you got to solve a problem.

00:31:44.080 The fundamentals are still always there and you still always need to have rapport built

00:31:48.380 with the people that you're there with because people are emotional creatures.

00:31:52.200 We're not here to just, you know, be robots.

00:31:55.440 And so there's a lot of emotion in everything from the guy getting mad underneath the log because,

00:32:01.060 you know, he's been there too long or he's tired to, you know, the person that takes

00:32:06.320 offense.

00:32:06.700 If you tell them that their product page isn't, you know, up to snuff to when the missus comes

00:32:12.020 in and has a problem and you try, you start solving it right away and she doesn't want

00:32:17.440 you to solve it.

00:32:17.960 She just wants you to shut up and listen, you know? 0.94

00:32:19.980 Yeah.

00:32:20.220 That's a hard one for most guys.

00:32:21.780 Yeah.

00:32:22.000 Myself included.

00:32:22.860 Yeah.

00:32:23.200 It's like, what's the problem?

00:32:24.560 We'll fix this in no time.

00:32:26.540 Right.

00:32:26.960 Right.

00:32:27.780 That doesn't always work out so well.

00:32:29.760 And that creates a new problem.

00:32:31.660 Yeah, it does.

00:32:32.460 The problem is, is you don't know how to listen.

00:32:35.260 Yeah.

00:32:35.720 Yeah.

00:32:36.200 Great point.

00:32:37.300 Well, along that same line of not being able to listen, what are some other mistakes that

00:32:40.800 you see common, whether it was your time in the military service or even taking people

00:32:44.180 through go rock challenges that they are making the mistakes that they're making when

00:32:48.640 it comes to communication?

00:32:50.060 So I think that I really think that the most important part of communicating is to have rapport

00:32:57.100 with the people that you're communicating with, no matter how you do it, you have to do it

00:33:01.060 your way.

00:33:01.880 And you have to understand, you have to understand your audience.

00:33:05.440 You have to sort of build a bridge with them, if you will.

00:33:09.940 So when we, we talk about, you know, rapport building, it's no mirror, listen, maintain.

00:33:16.000 And so it means know your audience, mirror them and say, hey, I care about the things

00:33:22.100 you care about and we're kind of on the same team here.

00:33:25.380 Listen means actively listen.

00:33:27.340 So regardless, sometimes people say certain things to get to other things that they really

00:33:33.000 care about.

00:33:33.540 What is something that, what really matters to the person that's talking?

00:33:37.540 Not what you want, not what you want to matter to them, but what matters to them?

00:33:42.560 Because they're emotional, just like you are, right?

00:33:45.880 Just like we all are.

00:33:47.120 And then maintain means, you know, rapport is, it's, it's hard to build and it's easy

00:33:51.920 to lose.

00:33:52.320 You can lose it in a second.

00:33:53.780 And so I think that to answer your question succinctly though, I think that we don't spend

00:33:58.620 enough time on building the relationships that are going to make us the happiest, right?

00:34:04.740 And that, that comes in happiest under a log at a go rock challenge or the person to our

00:34:11.100 left or a person to our right at work or the people that were, you know, the people that

00:34:16.440 we live with, the people that we love, our families.

00:34:19.220 It's, it's like, we don't listen enough.

00:34:21.640 And so I say all this, not because I'm the expert, because I have to remind myself of

00:34:27.380 this stuff too.

00:34:28.140 I mean, I can, I can turn in a millisecond into problem solver one-on-one about everything,

00:34:33.980 right?

00:34:34.420 Yeah.

00:34:34.700 That's what I like.

00:34:35.380 That comes naturally to me.

00:34:37.400 And so what's not so natural is to really sit and listen and say, okay, what's the, what's

00:34:43.920 the, what's the problem from their perspective?

00:34:46.800 And if, if you can really drill into that and make the other person feel like you're on

00:34:52.780 a team together to solve this problem that you both care about, because if you care about

00:34:58.300 them, you should care about their problems.

00:34:59.700 You're going to go a lot further than if you, you try to, you know, lone ranger everything

00:35:04.720 or, or you try to just sort of tell people what to do.

00:35:08.120 And so relating that back to the military, people think that the military, it's just about

00:35:12.000 the rank and you say, okay, I'm, I'm outrank you.

00:35:15.360 I can just tell you what to do.

00:35:16.480 It doesn't work that way.

00:35:17.880 Yes.

00:35:18.880 Yes.

00:35:19.320 If you outrank somebody, you can just sort of tell them what to do, but you're going to

00:35:22.860 get the bare minimum.

00:35:24.080 If you want to get a little bit more, you've, you've got to build rapport with them and you've

00:35:27.720 got to explain to them the whys and you've got to, you know, build a, got to build your

00:35:32.600 own team.

00:35:33.360 If it's two or four or eight or 30 or a hundred of you, you always have to have that personal

00:35:39.520 connection to the people that you're leading and the people that you're spending your life

00:35:42.740 with.

00:35:43.280 I love it.

00:35:44.040 And I can continue on this conversation, but for the sake of time, we won't, but I think

00:35:47.340 it's been so powerful.

00:35:48.180 We're talking about leadership, teamwork, communication, all of these things.

00:35:51.780 You're going to get that much further along when you learn how to do these things effectively.

00:35:56.220 And I can see how GORUCK is helping people do that.

00:35:58.780 So Jason, I really appreciate you and your insight on that.

00:36:01.580 I want to ask you a couple other questions as we wind down.

00:36:04.100 The first question, and I prepared you for this one, is what does it mean to be a man?

00:36:08.340 I know, man.

00:36:09.200 I've been thinking about that the whole time.

00:36:11.480 So if, if I started wandering a little bit in the interview, I was probably thinking about

00:36:15.640 that.

00:36:16.380 I should have shot you a message or something, a question beforehand.

00:36:19.180 So you weren't thinking about it.

00:36:20.180 It's all good.

00:36:20.600 I mean, look, I think, I think a man is supposed to be tough and I think a man is supposed to

00:36:25.040 take care of the people that are less tough than he is.

00:36:27.860 So simple.

00:36:29.000 I, I, that really is insightful because I always talk about the man's responsibility

00:36:34.240 is to, uh, obviously take care of himself and those that he cares about or has a responsibility

00:36:38.660 for.

00:36:39.120 But I really liked the framing of those that are less tough than him.

00:36:41.660 That makes a total, total sense.

00:36:43.040 I mean, the big ones take care of the little ones, you know?

00:36:45.060 I mean, it's just, it's like, it's not about you.

00:36:49.160 Think about yourself a little bit less, right?

00:36:51.840 We, we all can do that.

00:36:53.540 Like the happiest moments in our lives are not when we say, man, I just, I did something

00:36:59.380 for me all day, all week, all month, right?

00:37:03.080 I mean, that's just a, it's not a fun, fulfilling existence, but it's a lot more fun to be a part

00:37:10.220 of something bigger than yourself.

00:37:11.760 And so, yes, it's, it's, so to me, it's the sort of special forces team.

00:37:16.780 And I, again, I was thinking about this a little bit while we were talking, it's like

00:37:19.600 you're on the team and you are, it's a 12 man team.

00:37:23.080 You have very, very clear jobs that are really important to the survival of everybody else

00:37:29.020 on the team.

00:37:29.860 So individually, you have to be prepared.

00:37:34.220 You have to be competent.

00:37:35.360 You have to be, you know, physically, mentally, every, everything ready all the time.

00:37:40.720 But without the other guys, you're nothing.

00:37:44.880 And so no matter how great you are, you're on a team.

00:37:48.160 And I think that the more that we, we remember that a team is at our house too.

00:37:53.260 A team is at our job.

00:37:54.560 A team is at, you know, the events and the, the experiences in life that we like the most,

00:38:00.080 you know, doing things solo, isn't that fun.

00:38:02.820 So being, being a part of something bigger than ourselves is, is a really rewarding experience.

00:38:07.920 I love it, man.

00:38:09.700 I love it.

00:38:10.240 And a great note to end on.

00:38:12.760 Jason, if somebody is listening to this and they hear what you have to say, they like the

00:38:16.280 concept of leadership and teamwork and community and all the things that you've been able to

00:38:20.340 build in your life and with GoRuck, how do we connect with you and learn more about the

00:38:23.240 work you're doing?

00:38:24.180 Right.

00:38:24.320 So our website is GoRuck.com, G-O-R-U-C-K.com, Ruck as in rucking or rucksack.

00:38:31.160 And then you can also just search GoRuck Challenge and it'll come right up.

00:38:35.640 Awesome.

00:38:36.220 Jason, I appreciate you.

00:38:37.240 I appreciate your service to our country.

00:38:39.280 I appreciate what you're doing for veterans as they're transitioning into civilian life.

00:38:42.780 And then of course, what you're doing for the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of

00:38:45.840 thousands of people that have participated in these GoRuck challenges.

00:38:48.640 Thanks for joining us today.

00:38:49.460 Thanks so much for having me.

00:38:50.800 And I really look forward to reading your review on your GoRuck Challenge.

00:38:55.680 Definitely.

00:38:56.260 Oh, you're calling me out now.

00:38:59.020 I've had that happen on a show before and I got called out and spent 60 hours in Vermont

00:39:03.280 last time I did that.

00:39:04.720 Might as well.

00:39:05.460 We got similar ones to that.

00:39:07.840 You agreed to do it before we started and now we might as well have you agree to it on

00:39:12.340 camera.

00:39:13.680 All right, man.

00:39:14.240 I'm in.

00:39:14.720 I will not edit this out of the show.

00:39:16.740 You guys heard it here.

00:39:17.700 I'm committing to a GoRuck.

00:39:19.240 If you guys want to join me, I'll get you some of the details on that.

00:39:22.120 Awesome, man.

00:39:22.660 Thanks, Emil.

00:39:24.620 There you have it, guys.

00:39:25.420 Mr. Jason McCarthy teaching us what it takes to build a stronger team, a stronger support

00:39:29.800 unit in our lives.

00:39:30.620 So make sure you check out the show notes at orderofman.com slash 074 for the links and

00:39:34.940 the resources we shared during our conversation.

00:39:37.280 In the meantime, check out our inaugural Order of Man Uprising, September 15th through the 18th.

00:39:41.800 This event will sell out.

00:39:42.940 Like I said, we've got three spots available.

00:39:44.520 We're going to be bringing on new instructors daily and it's going to be unlike an event

00:39:48.980 you have ever seen or experienced.

00:39:50.600 So go to orderofman.com slash uprising for all the details.

00:39:53.800 Guys, I look forward to talking with you on Friday, but until then, take action and become

00:39:57.540 the man you were meant to be.

00:39:58.800 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

00:40:02.360 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

00:40:06.400 We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

00:40:09.520 We'll see you next week.

00:40:15.060 You're here at order of the man you are stunned.

00:40:19.980 You're next week.

00:40:22.400 We'll see you next week.

00:40:28.480 We'll see you next week.

Order of Man - August 16, 2016

OoM 074： Team-Building Strategies from the Special Forces and GoRuck with Jason McCarthy

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