Order of Man - OoM 077： Strength and Power in Kettlebell Training with Jon Mills

00:00:00.000 The kettlebell, you've heard of it, perhaps you've even used it a little, but I bet you have no idea

00:00:04.440 how versatile these things can actually be. My guest today, master kettlebell instructor John

00:00:08.960 Mills, talks with me about the good, the bad, and the ugly behind this big hunk of metal we call a

00:00:14.300 kettlebell. We talk about the benefits, the movements, the pitfalls, and how you can use

00:00:18.400 kettlebells to up your exercise regimen. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest,

00:00:24.220 embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up

00:00:29.400 one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:36.700 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day,

00:00:42.100 and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:46.380 Men, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler, and I am your host and the founder of

00:00:50.220 Order of Man. As always, I am glad that you're here with us today. We are always talking about

00:00:55.100 everything manly on this show. Stronger leadership, being a more connected father,

00:00:59.400 and a husband, being a better business owner. At the end of the day, we just want you to be a

00:01:03.740 better man. That's what we're all about on the Order of Man podcast. Today, we're going to be

00:01:08.020 talking about one of my favorite pieces of exercise equipment and how versatile this thing can actually

00:01:12.260 be. Now, I was a little worried as I was considering even recording this podcast because I wasn't sure

00:01:17.780 if we could actually fill an entire show with information on kettlebells alone. But this one is

00:01:23.440 actually really, really enlightening as we talk not only about kettlebells, but how to succeed in life

00:01:28.540 in general. So before we get too much into it today, I want you to know that you can get all

00:01:33.040 of the show notes for this show at orderofman.com slash 077. And second, make sure that if you haven't

00:01:39.480 already, that you join our closed men's Facebook group with over 7,000 men. Now guys, 7,000 resources

00:01:47.040 for you to become a better man at facebook.com slash groups slash order of man. Now I want to introduce

00:01:53.200 you to my guest today, John Mills. He is a strength and conditioning coach and a master kettlebell

00:01:58.700 instructor based in Canada with a competitive swimming and soccer background. He's got 10 plus years

00:02:03.420 coaching experience in the fitness industry and a bachelor's in sports science. John has helped

00:02:08.200 hundreds of clients from all walks of life build stronger bodies and minds. At 37, John won his debut

00:02:15.020 natural men's physique competition and a pro card. He documented the entire contest prep process to show

00:02:22.060 what it takes to win without sacrificing your health, which can be found at peakphysiquefilm.com.

00:02:29.520 John, what's going on, man? Thanks for joining me on the show today.

00:02:31.700 How are you doing, Ryan? It's a pleasure to be here and with your listeners.

00:02:34.420 Yeah. So we're going to jump right into this because it is an important topic and one that

00:02:37.960 I've actually addressed over the past couple of years. We're going to talk about kettlebell training

00:02:41.780 specifically. And I'd like to hear from you, what are the benefits of training with kettlebells?

00:02:46.740 I mean, kettlebells are amazing tool. I'm an ex-athlete. So when I started working in the gym,

00:02:51.880 I got very bored of your samey weights, you know, bodybuilding, just the split training,

00:02:56.280 you can target your full body, hit the central nervous system. They travel anywhere with you.

00:03:01.200 Great for core strength and, um, and readdressing any posterior issues. There's just a fantastic tool

00:03:06.860 to really blitz the full body. It seems to me a little bit when I've used kettlebells that

00:03:13.140 it is actually limiting, but the more I understand, the more I learn, the more I hear from guys like

00:03:18.160 yourself, it's actually not. So I'm really curious about the variety of workouts that you can do

00:03:23.200 with kettlebell training. Can you get into some of that?

00:03:25.940 Yeah. I mean, it's a real discipline. So when you first start out, there's only a few movements

00:03:29.400 that you really can grasp. You know, the kettlebell swing is the basic movement. That's

00:03:33.560 going to generate the power through the hips. A lot of people actually, you know, use them wrong,

00:03:37.560 use the upper body because when we're given a heavy weight in our hand, naturally the body wants

00:03:41.780 to use the upper body to control that weight. So we have to retrain the body to use the big

00:03:47.460 core stabilizing muscles, you know, the, uh, the legs, the glutes, the, um, the core. So,

00:03:52.660 you know, we, we can really utilize every part of our body. You know, you can, you can target your

00:03:57.780 chest. You can use during a snatch, you can, uh, drive through your hips, use your core and you

00:04:04.200 stabilize using your shoulder and your triceps. You can use your full body for one movement.

00:04:08.540 So just one exercise. So do you use kettlebells exclusively at this point,

00:04:12.820 or are you doing other things? I went through a phase of wanting to master it. So I spent,

00:04:16.600 you know, my mentor at the time told me that to master something, obviously you have to have the

00:04:20.800 bell in your hand every day. So I did that for six years and I still pick up the bell, you know,

00:04:26.360 three or four times a week. So not solely, I now use it as a part of my full program. It's a great

00:04:32.960 way to, you know, to target the posterior chain and anybody that does the big lifts, you know,

00:04:37.760 the squats, the deadlifts, it really does help recruit that posterior chain and help work with

00:04:42.200 those, those movements as well. So especially the kettlebell swing, it's a really good movement

00:04:46.200 for everyone. How do you train your body to use the muscles they should be? Because I imagine even

00:04:51.100 when I started and I, and I use, usually I use for like kettlebell swings, a 53 pound kettlebell,

00:04:57.000 but when I started, it was a lot lighter than that. But I know, and I can feel, especially when I

00:05:01.220 started that I was using my back only, obviously, I think that's what you're talking about. How do you

00:05:05.260 retrain to use different and target different areas of the body? You break each movement down

00:05:10.020 and take it back to basics. So I wouldn't just hand you the bell straight away. We, you know,

00:05:14.160 we start to work on the floor. We work on rooting through the feet, creating that mind muscle

00:05:18.900 connection, understanding the position of a hinge, because generally most people will fall into a

00:05:24.000 squat when they're trying to hinge. And that's where the power is coming from for that swing, for

00:05:27.720 example. And then obviously through repetition and coaching, and you would have noticed if you,

00:05:32.500 as soon as you fix one thing with the bell, something else tends to go south. And you know,

00:05:36.720 your central nervous system is being, and peripheral nervous system is being overloaded.

00:05:40.380 So you already have to focus on one key, you know, point at a time. And as you say, like throughout

00:05:46.180 time, it becomes much more uniform than a lot, you know, a lot easier and a lot more functional

00:05:50.940 for your body to use the bell. But it is something that a lot of people struggle with. And, you know,

00:05:55.860 like anything in life, generally when things are really, really hard to learn, they're the most rewarding

00:06:00.140 when you get to the, you know, to that end goal. But some people get a little frustrated and,

00:06:04.060 you know, they just want to go back to normal weights, right? Because it's quite tough.

00:06:07.640 Well, they probably go back to normal weights or they revert back to doing it incorrectly and then

00:06:11.240 run the risk of it not working at best and at worst injuring themselves.

00:06:14.840 Absolutely. And I see a lot of really poor technique out there. And unfortunately, so I try and correct

00:06:19.280 it where I can, because obviously the body, you will use the stronger part of the body. So if you're not,

00:06:23.680 if you haven't been taught properly, it's not your fault, right? It just means your body is adapting

00:06:28.160 and trying to use the part that is stronger. And what we have to do is identify the weak spots and

00:06:32.580 the bell really does that well. And then that will train those weak spots and actually make you a much

00:06:37.340 more solid and much more functional unit. So I am actually going to go back on one of the things

00:06:42.080 you said is you said it's not your fault. And I am going to disagree with that a little bit. If you

00:06:45.880 don't figure out how to do this correctly, it is your fault because we've got guys like you and

00:06:49.720 we've got trainers and we've got coaches and we've got information and it's on us to learn that

00:06:53.180 information correctly so that we don't do harm to our bodies. It's very true. But there are a lot of people

00:06:57.180 out there teaching the bell. And if you, you know, if you're going to learn how to use the bell,

00:07:01.300 you assume that because someone has a certificate, they know how to break it down properly and teach

00:07:05.940 it. But that isn't necessarily the case in my experience. A lot of the certifications out there

00:07:10.220 teach people how to use it, but I don't teach people how to, you know, how to first master it and

00:07:14.920 then go on to teach it. It's very different, you know, knowing how to use the bell and teach the

00:07:19.440 bell are two different things. So I agree with you. It's, you know, it's up to you to go and find

00:07:23.060 the best coach you can and to, you know, train yourself until you really do understand how to

00:07:28.220 use the tool, you know, to its entirety. But, you know, it's hard out there for people, you know,

00:07:33.080 it is tough because, you know, in our industry, just because someone has a certificate doesn't

00:07:36.820 mean they know they may be the best people to teach you.

00:07:39.460 Sure. Yeah. That's, that's actually a good point. That's a really interesting perspective

00:07:42.680 and one that I didn't consider. I look at a lot of these, you know, you can go get a certificate

00:07:46.520 for whatever it may be over the weekend and not really be an expert at it and then,

00:07:49.800 and then get back into your regular ordinary day life. And then all of a sudden you're teaching

00:07:54.060 people how to do this and that creates some problems, obviously.

00:07:56.620 Yeah, no, I mean, that's the issue I have with kettlebells because I'm so, you know, I love them.

00:08:01.640 They're a great tool, but so passionate about teaching them properly. I definitely don't

00:08:05.460 fast track people. It's, you know, it's, it's something that we learn from grassroots all the

00:08:09.020 way up. I'm going to release a kettlebell cert later next year with my, my wife. And, uh, the way that

00:08:15.280 we will run the course will be very, very different. It'll be staggered. So there'll be a period of time

00:08:19.440 where people go off and learn how to master the bell. Then they'll come back and get it. They'll

00:08:24.340 have an examination on that purely, and then we'll break it down into teaching and then have an

00:08:28.700 examination on how to teach as well. I like that. This actually sounds like going back to breaking

00:08:33.720 it down to the basics, which I love. That's such an amazing concept. It actually sounds a lot like

00:08:37.460 my golf swing. You know, if you, if you correct one area, it tweaks your back or tweaks your stance or

00:08:42.640 tweaks your grip, and then it messes something else up. So I can see why you want to build on that

00:08:46.120 foundation. Absolutely. Yeah. It's really important. So where did the kettlebell come

00:08:50.460 from? Even I imagine that at some point, this was probably a thousand years ago, a practical

00:08:55.640 exercise or people were throwing rocks or boulders over their head. Where did it come from?

00:08:59.980 Believe it or not, it's the Russians. They invented it. It's been, it's been around since the 1800s, 0.98

00:09:05.160 I believe. Uh, and it was their, it was their original gym. Um, so they mastered how to use it.

00:09:10.740 They used to use it as, again, it's very versatile. You can take it anywhere as long as you can carry them.

00:09:14.520 Right. And I think it was, uh, the Russian army that were original, the originators of the bell.

00:09:19.580 Um, so they put their army, uh, through strenuous workouts with a bell. And then it got brought over

00:09:24.520 by a guy called Pavel in, um, the early nineties into the USA. And then, um, and then it just,

00:09:30.600 it's become pretty big over the last, you know, 20 years.

00:09:33.960 Sure. Yeah. And it seems like it's gaining more and more traction. I'm so I'm familiar with,

00:09:38.240 I think it's, would be the, like a Russian kettlebell swing, which maybe is not all the way up.

00:09:43.700 Is that right? And then we've got the traditional kettlebell swing. And then I think they're called

00:09:47.580 Turkish getups. Those are the few that I'm really familiar with. Am I right on those things? And

00:09:52.180 then what would you add to that?

00:09:53.240 Well, the fundamental movement is the kettlebell swing. And the way it should be taught is, uh,

00:09:57.020 you finish the bell swing at shoulder height, but the Americans, um, in CrossFit, they,

00:10:02.560 they changed it around a little bit and they, they now finish above the head. So they changed it a

00:10:06.780 little, but the traditional way is, uh, the swing finishes at a shoulder height. And then obviously you have

00:10:12.100 your, your main movements, single swings, uh, snatches, cleans. And then obviously, you know,

00:10:16.600 you, you spoke about the windmill and the Turkish getup. They, they, they are grinding drills. They,

00:10:21.260 they, they, they're really good for your full body, uh, core strength as well as mobility. So

00:10:26.080 they're, they're fantastic, uh, but they're less ballistic. They're more controlled, uh, and they hit

00:10:30.320 the whole, the whole system, the whole quarter TVA. So they're great movements.

00:10:34.560 Yeah. That Turkish getup and I'll have to post a video. Maybe you have a video you can share with

00:10:38.300 me and we can make it available on the show notes, but it's an interesting move and it actually tosses

00:10:42.220 me around. I feel like the bell's controlling me more than I'm controlling it. And that's just

00:10:46.040 practice, my friend. That just takes time. Uh, it really does. You know, you've noticed that as

00:10:50.160 soon as the wrist, uh, starts to move, uh, then the whole movement changes. So really it starts with,

00:10:56.220 with where you root your body. So obviously your feet, your hands, where they are nice and solid,

00:11:01.900 your core's got to be solid, but then that wrist needs to be straight. And as soon as it starts to

00:11:05.300 move, it changes because it's an unstable weight, right? So as you're moving, the weight's moving

00:11:09.560 against you. So you're fighting inertia all the way through the movement.

00:11:12.880 Well, and I imagine that's the, the benefit of using kettlebells in the first place is that,

00:11:17.340 like you said, it's unstable. It's, it's, you've got to control it. You've got to maintain it,

00:11:21.300 which uses your entire body versus a, uh, a bar or maybe even a dumbbell to some degree,

00:11:27.140 or even machine equipment as well.

00:11:29.240 Absolutely. You're having to use all your internal stabilizers. And as soon as you move through a

00:11:33.280 movement, uh, those, then you get changed the angle of, you know, the angle of which the weight

00:11:38.220 is, uh, it's responding to the actual, the arm or the, or the wrist changes. So you have to adapt

00:11:43.800 with the bell, which is why it's such a great tool. And I love it so much.

00:11:47.680 So what's your background? I mean, it sounds like you at one point got into this, but haven't always

00:11:52.000 been doing this. So, so tell me a little bit about that.

00:11:54.400 I mean, I was a competitive swimmer when I was younger. So I, I was an athlete for my younger years

00:11:58.920 and a, and a soccer player, um, lost my way, had a few dark, dark years. We don't have to go into

00:12:04.620 it, but you know, and I was given a second chance at life. So, you know, I lost my way in the,

00:12:09.580 in the athletic world. And then I really, really found a purpose. You know, I really decided I

00:12:14.880 wanted to try and help people, you know, help people change their lives. And I was very passionate

00:12:19.460 about training, got back into training, joined the gym, became a trainer, but I was really bored with

00:12:24.660 the conventional weights. You know, I was, I really love to push myself to new limits. You know,

00:12:28.880 I really love to push myself, get sway and work hard. And I saw someone using the bell and I was

00:12:33.480 like, well, that looks tough. I should give that a go. And I was terrible at it to begin with. I was

00:12:37.140 actually shocking. I went on a course and it was still really hard. And then I met my mentor,

00:12:42.360 Angie Dowds, and she had a whole system, a certification system that she put me through eventually. And I was

00:12:48.100 the first person in her system to become a master trainer. And I just spent year after year after year,

00:12:53.660 day in, day out, just trying to master it. And again, you know, I have, you know, I say I'm a

00:12:58.340 master trainer, but you're always learning. The bell doesn't take any prisons, that's for sure.

00:13:02.540 So I just, I just love training. I love pushing my body and trying to reach new goals.

00:13:06.780 What was the catalyst for change? I mean, you said you went through a dark time. The guys that

00:13:10.080 have listened to this podcast for any amount of time know a little bit about my backstory and every,

00:13:14.020 every man out there that's listening to this show and every man on the planet has gone through

00:13:17.740 something, right? We've all gone through difficult things. How were you able to change this around for

00:13:21.680 yourself? I mean, I was given a second chance, right? And then I think when you've been in that

00:13:26.200 position, you have to really look inside yourself and work out who you are. So I did that. I did some

00:13:31.160 really, you know, some, you know, ask myself some really big questions. I didn't like most people

00:13:35.060 didn't know what my purpose was. So, you know, I had to go and I went, I went traveling, I went to

00:13:38.640 Thailand and through that experience, I really decided I needed to get back into fitness and I wanted to

00:13:44.280 help other people that had maybe been through similar things. And I wanted to inspire people. And I also

00:13:48.980 wanted to, you know, be the best version of myself and, you know, be a role model to everyone around

00:13:54.240 me. So that really inspired me to make a difference. And I started working as a trainer and I really

00:13:58.640 realized that, you know, I can help people and I do, and I love it. I help people every day.

00:14:03.100 And I think sharing our stories is so important because there's so many people out there that

00:14:06.320 suffer in silence and they will look at me or you, you know, you know, you're very successful.

00:14:10.200 I'm successful now. I'm married to a beautiful, my beautiful wife and I have a successful career.

00:14:15.260 And they may just think that we've never had a dark day in our lives and that, you know, that everything's

00:14:19.780 just been rosy for us. But when we tell our story, it gives people hope because we can relate and you

00:14:26.680 can literally achieve anything you want to. As long as you set your mind to it and you have a good support

00:14:30.720 network around you, you know, that journey is going to really, really hold you in good stead.

00:14:35.620 That experience you had is really going to help you in the long run.

00:14:39.160 What are some of the changes that you're seeing in the clients that you're working with?

00:14:42.420 I've been on a health journey over the past three years or so, and I've seen huge changes in my life,

00:14:46.580 but I'm really curious what you're experiencing and what your clients are, because I think this

00:14:50.560 is going to be motivating for the guys that are listening that want to get off the couch and get

00:14:53.720 into the gym. Yeah, I think, um, I mean, like obviously we work with different clients. So I have

00:14:58.600 clients that are, you know, are athletes that their goal is to get into a triple A hockey or get our

00:15:03.040 triple A hockey into, into the big leagues or somebody who's been struggling with obesity for most of their

00:15:08.220 adult life and really wants to make a change for their family and needs to, needs to literally save

00:15:13.560 their own lives. Um, and so the way you work with each individual is very, very different,

00:15:18.840 but having had the experience that I've had and the experiences I've had, it makes you more

00:15:23.660 empathetic understanding and able to actually reach inside and find out what's really motivating

00:15:28.000 that purpose, that person. I mean, they really need to have a purpose, a real good reason why they're

00:15:33.900 trying to make these changes, you know, not aesthetics isn't, isn't quite good enough,

00:15:37.060 right? Just because they want to change their bodies. You know, somebody's why is so important

00:15:40.620 and trying to find out what that is that's motivating somebody to help, you know, help them

00:15:46.040 through the process is so, so important in my job. So I've seen some very strong quote unquote

00:15:51.840 wise, and I've seen some very weak quote unquote wise. What are some of the strongest wise that you're

00:15:56.600 seeing from, from guys who were able to maintain their fitness goals? Because it's very easy to go into

00:16:02.000 the gym this week or tomorrow and do it once or do it twice. But to maintain that over 30 days,

00:16:07.620 over 365 days, over 3000 days is difficult to do. What are these guys using as their motivation to do

00:16:15.320 that? Everyone's different, right? But like, for example, I, you know, a client of mine who's obese,

00:16:19.600 for example, you know, and, um, and, and has type two diabetes to two kids. She, she has no, 1.00

00:16:26.200 she has no choice. If she wants to be around, she's been told she wants to be around for the next two

00:16:30.760 birthdays of her children. Then she has to make that change. And that's, that's what motivate, 0.65

00:16:35.000 that's what motivates her is that thought that she wouldn't be around. Um, somebody who's,

00:16:39.640 you know, competing in a show that, you know, for, for example, for me, I just competed in my first

00:16:44.020 bodybuilding show, uh, and I documented the whole thing. And my why was that I wanted to help people

00:16:49.060 I'd better understand their bodies and stop and not take shortcuts and understand there's a healthy way

00:16:54.280 to a healthier way to show prep, because I saw a lot of people that, that weren't doing it the

00:16:58.960 correct way, uh, or didn't have the good education. So my wife for that was trying to create something 1.00

00:17:03.960 and build something that gave them the information they needed to make better choices. But within

00:17:08.460 that, I actually found my year and athlete again, and I reignited a passion on a, of a competitive

00:17:13.780 nature and I really wanted to win. So it's your, why can change through the process, but your initial

00:17:18.640 why there has to be a passionate and emotional attachment to the goal. Yeah. And it sounds like the

00:17:23.800 common thread between your client that you just mentioned, even yourself is really

00:17:27.660 unemotional. Why you've got to be emotionally attached to that thing. And it's got to be

00:17:31.220 internal as well. If it's an external motivation or somebody telling you, you need to do something

00:17:35.900 or you should be this way, that's probably not going to last. It's fleeting for sure.

00:17:39.480 One hundred percent. Yeah. And you need to have that emotional connection. Plus also, you know,

00:17:43.240 like any big goal and you've, you've done some amazing things in the past as well. Right.

00:17:47.260 You know, that's the 60 hour Spartan, um, was it, was it, was it called?

00:17:52.260 Agogi, the Agogi.

00:17:53.220 I don't want to pronounce it right. Yeah. I mean, that's amazing. Right. But if you were to look at that

00:17:56.500 at its entirety at the beginning, you would have, you know, if you look at the goal, it's like a

00:18:00.660 mountain. So it's like, you have to break it down into smaller bits, bite-sized pieces and take each

00:18:05.480 day at a time and your training and your regime. And then all of a sudden the unthinkable is

00:18:09.360 manageable. You know, you can, you can actually attain it. If you were just to look at that

00:18:12.440 mountain, it's, it's hard to, it's hard to imagine climbing it. Right.

00:18:16.760 Man, I just wanted to take a quick mid podcast break to tell you about the order of man store.

00:18:21.680 I'm excited about this. We just launched it this week and we just stocked up on our much

00:18:25.500 anticipated order of man decals. We've got some other things in the works so you can show your

00:18:29.800 support for the show and let people know that you are an official member of the order of man.

00:18:34.120 We've got shirts coming in later this week. We've got hats on the way. We've got leather bound

00:18:37.820 journals coming in the next couple of weeks. And again, our decals are ready for you. So if you're

00:18:42.480 a fan of the show and you want to let people know just how manly you are, you need to head to

00:18:47.320 order of man.com slash store to pick up your gear. Now let's get back to my conversation with John.

00:18:52.540 Yeah, this makes sense. I mean, with these bite size, just foundational, we actually had a

00:18:57.960 conversation in our mastermind group today about this. What I hear a lot, I'm a financial advisor

00:19:02.120 by trade is people won't get started with wealth building. And I imagine that it's the same way

00:19:06.280 with fitness because they're not at the level today that they hope they would be or want to be.

00:19:11.160 So they don't even get started rather than just starting small. And I think this is the benefit

00:19:15.140 in my experience of kettlebells is that you can scale it. You can start somewhere and build to what

00:19:20.320 you're trying to accomplish for yourself. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like it's a discipline,

00:19:23.960 like any discipline, you have to start at the beginning and there's a middle and there's an

00:19:28.120 end game. And you have to do the basics very, very well. You know, set daily and weekly goals

00:19:34.160 and the same in your business as well. When you're advising your clients, I'm sure you do the same.

00:19:38.180 You don't, you know, they're not going to get, you know, where they need to get in a year.

00:19:43.120 It's going to take them a period of time, right? So set daily and weekly, monthly goals

00:19:47.160 and have short-term and long-term goals, you know? So, but also having that accountability

00:19:51.820 is huge, you know, and in my industry anyway, you know, if you tell somebody that you're going

00:19:57.000 to do something, it makes it more real, right? So if you have that coach or somebody who's

00:20:00.760 advising you a mentor, then it's going to make it a little bit more achievable because they're

00:20:05.200 going to push you too, right? Sure. Do you have a fitness coach? I had a mentor, bless her,

00:20:10.240 and she committed suicide about five years ago. So she was my mentor and she actually was one of

00:20:18.380 the key reasons why I'm doing what I'm doing now and I'm so passionate about it because I was still

00:20:22.800 a little lost even when I started working as a trainer. I wasn't sure it was my calling and I was

00:20:28.440 struggling a little bit like anybody when you're first starting out. But for my documentary, I did

00:20:34.140 have a coach. I chose because I'm not a physique coach. That's not my speciality. So I did have a

00:20:40.480 coach and that accountability for me was defining a part of me actually succeeding because if you

00:20:48.140 don't have that accountability, it's so much tougher. Yeah, very cool. I love to hear that

00:20:52.920 guys that are on such a high level, such an elite level still are engaging with coaches and see the

00:20:58.000 value of that even though they are where they are. I'm sorry to hear about your mentor. It sounds like

00:21:01.740 her legacy is living on a little bit. Yeah, I think about her every day, mate. And I have to

00:21:05.720 be honest, you know, I even hear a voice in my head pushing through a hard kettlebell set and I'm

00:21:09.800 thinking about taking, you know, taking a rep or two off. I hear her. She was amazing and she had

00:21:14.900 her own dark struggles and unfortunately she succumbed to them. So I try and teach the way she would want

00:21:21.640 me to teach and have her live on through me a little bit. Yeah, definitely. Sure, sure. So you talked

00:21:27.680 about your wife. Is she into this as much as you are? Is she into kettlebells as well?

00:21:31.740 Oh yeah. I mean, I met my wife back in London in the UK in my gym, believe it or not. I was running

00:21:37.200 my business there. Long story short, she was on a working traveling visa and she was going to come

00:21:43.080 back to Canada. I convinced her to stick around and then convinced her to change her idea of wanting 0.89

00:21:47.920 to work as a wedding planner and become a trainer. So I taught her how to use the bell and she's

00:21:52.900 fantastic. We've been working together. We run our own business here in Canada and we've been working

00:21:56.580 together for three years. We run JM Training here in Guelph, just outside Toronto. And yeah,

00:22:01.280 we're both passionate about the same thing. So it's great to find a partner and to have that

00:22:07.120 support is so key to me being able to do things like the documentary that I did last year. I've

00:22:14.000 never been to film school and I made a documentary and I would never have been able to do that without

00:22:17.280 her. So yeah, she's great. It's very cool. So who's the better trainer?

00:22:21.260 I think we're basically the female and male version of each other. Like I hear her coaching

00:22:27.280 and she sounds like me and then I coach and I'm like, wow, I sound like Janet. So I think we really

00:22:31.400 do feed off each other. She is great at what she does. She inspires me every day because she's only

00:22:36.380 been, she's been doing it for four years now. I've been doing this for 12. So it's good to have that

00:22:40.440 because every now and again, you also need that accountability. You need that, that inspiration.

00:22:44.100 She inspires me every day.

00:22:45.080 Sure. Yeah. And even sometimes I've noticed that those are that maybe just getting started

00:22:49.980 are actually back more to the fundamentals and they can keep you in line because they

00:22:53.620 haven't learned bad habits at this point.

00:22:55.120 Oh, absolutely. But she's a perfectionist too. So she keeps me on my toes.

00:22:58.480 Very cool. Fair enough. Hey, I'm making some notes here. And one of the questions I missed

00:23:02.340 that I meant to ask you about was the CrossFit question. You said CrossFit adapted the kettlebell

00:23:07.700 swing to go up above the head and over the shoulders. Why is that? Any idea or insights into that?

00:23:12.560 Yeah. I'm not entirely sure why they did that. I think they incorporates more upper body. So

00:23:17.680 your work and if you're going for higher rep ranges, which in CrossFit you tend to go for,

00:23:22.340 right? It tends to be, you know, as many reps as possible in a minute, for example. So,

00:23:27.080 and it does engage the upper back and arms a little more if you take it above the head.

00:23:33.080 So I'm not saying it's the wrong way to do it by any means, but it's definitely been adapted

00:23:36.500 for efficiency plus also to incorporate upper body as well, I would assume.

00:23:40.160 That makes sense. Is there a reason? I know there is a reason. That's probably not the right

00:23:44.920 question, but what is the reason that you would choose high reps, overweight, or vice versa?

00:23:51.180 Well, again, like it's the nature of CrossFit is competitive, right? So generally they're trying

00:23:57.100 to beat their last time or beat their, you know, competitor. So as many reps as possible,

00:24:02.660 you know, serves that criteria pretty well. For me, when I'm teaching at least, I like to go for

00:24:08.580 quality over quantity. And that doesn't mean that you can't do quantity at a, you know,

00:24:12.300 a good level. I just, when I'm teaching, of course, but there will be times where I go for

00:24:16.060 as many, as many snatches in five minutes on my right, on my right and my left, just to push the

00:24:21.500 endurance component of the workout. So it really depends on the mode and what you're trying to

00:24:25.260 achieve. Well, so speaking of what you're trying to achieve, what type of exercises would you

00:24:30.740 implement if you are trying to achieve different things? Maybe we can walk through that really

00:24:35.280 briefly. Sure. I mean, obviously kettlebell training is very endurance, uh, genuinely very

00:24:40.300 endurance orientated. So, um, you're working your full body. It's, uh, so you're working your core,

00:24:45.740 your upper body and your lower body together. It's a great fat burner, great for core strength

00:24:50.600 and great for mobility, uh, increasing mobility in your joints and for your hips. Uh, if you go

00:24:55.380 heavier, then you would juice, would, would reduce the reps. So then you would be working more on

00:25:00.320 power and strength. And then obviously if you go to traditional bodybuilding,

00:25:04.280 you know, where you do your split training, you have your, you know, you split your legs,

00:25:07.800 your upper body into two days to say back and, uh, back and triceps and chest and biceps,

00:25:12.840 then depending on your rep range and the weight you're going for, you'll be trying to, you know,

00:25:16.700 increase strength, uh, increase some lean muscle, build some lean muscle. So how high your weights

00:25:21.880 will determine how long your rest periods are. There's so many different ways you can train the

00:25:26.100 body. But I think the most important thing you probably grasped is yourself in your own

00:25:29.300 training is that you keep shocking the body. You keep changing the program around, uh, you know,

00:25:33.440 six to eight weeks. If you, if you want to keep seeing results, right? Yeah. I think just

00:25:37.400 variance is, is actually really important in your, your exercise routine, not only from a

00:25:41.620 physical perspective, but a mental perspective as well, because it keeps the mind engaged too.

00:25:45.240 Yeah. I mean, absolutely. You know, you want to get that central nervous system involved and, uh,

00:25:48.740 and things can become very, very boring if you keep doing the same thing over and over again.

00:25:52.300 And if you're not seeing the results, that's part of it, right? If you don't see any changes,

00:25:55.800 then that's the motivation is going to slip. So you've got to keep pushing the envelope and

00:25:59.480 challenging the body, taking yourself out of your comfort zone.

00:26:02.160 What are some non-traditional movements that you've incorporated into your exercises with

00:26:06.980 kettlebells? I like to adapt. So I, I, I love the, uh, figure of eight to punch. So basically it's a

00:26:13.620 figure of eight. So you're, you're, you're threading the, um, the kettlebell through your legs from one

00:26:18.260 arm to the other in a figure of eight. So you're basically going around the left behind and then in

00:26:22.820 front of the right and then background, and then you bring it up to level with shoulders. It's a very

00:26:27.880 ballistic movement. Interesting. And, uh, it's one, it's very unconventional. And when you're

00:26:32.220 doing it, actually it does turn heads because people are like, well, what is he doing over

00:26:35.980 there? You probably, have you ever been on one of those, uh, those videos for exercise fails or

00:26:41.760 anything like that? You know what I mean? Yeah. It sounds a lot like maybe, uh, dribbling a

00:26:46.080 basketball through your legs. Am I picturing this correctly? Yeah, but it's, it's ballistic and

00:26:49.580 powerful. Maybe I'll share a video with you at some point so you can see what I mean. It's a great

00:26:53.260 movement and I love it. But again, it's an advanced movement. It's not something you would teach

00:26:56.840 someone straight away. You teach them how to thread the, uh, the bell through their legs first,

00:27:00.860 but generally the knee gets hit a few times in practice for the first time at least. But yeah,

00:27:05.140 it's a great movement and it targets the full body. Yeah. And you got to learn that the hard way

00:27:08.760 sometimes just getting hit with it before you realize don't do that again. Right. It doesn't

00:27:12.120 take any prisoners of the bell. I tell you when you're first learning, you know, your arms are in

00:27:16.340 pieces, your hands are shredded, you got calluses, you're bleeding, you're bruised. Yeah. I mean, it's,

00:27:20.900 it's, it's not for the faint hearted, but it's a great tool once you get to, you know, get really,

00:27:24.660 you know, competent with it. I can see that, but then it's also pretty masculine and pretty

00:27:28.960 manly to throw this thing around and kind of dominate this, this big hunk of metal, which

00:27:32.320 is kind of fun as well. Absolutely. It's very manly. Talk to me maybe about some experiments

00:27:36.500 because I imagine with you being an expert in this field and, and, and competing and doing the

00:27:40.760 things that you are, that you're experimenting, you're trying new things, any experimentations gone

00:27:45.140 wrong for you? Experimenting, that's a good question. I'd have to think about that. Um, yeah,

00:27:50.660 I mean, I think we're always trying new things. I can't say this is really going wrong, but

00:27:54.400 like I am playing around with gymnastics and if you've seen a picture of me, I'm quite

00:27:57.700 a large dude. So, and, uh, to try and start learning to do gymnastics is, uh, is quite a

00:28:03.260 feat. So I just had a guy coming in and I suppose we can say we've had some epic fails where he's

00:28:07.940 trying to teach me a couple of these movements and, uh, I'm trying to do this, uh, banana movement

00:28:12.340 where I'm on my stomach and you're trying to, um, you're trying to, you know, pike your back.

00:28:16.720 So you're like, you're curving your back and literally rolling on your stomach, keeping

00:28:20.300 your legs off. So imagine you're like rocking like a boat. Uh, and it's, it's quite funny

00:28:24.280 to watch. I assume. Yeah, I'm sure. But yeah, like I'm obviously learning new stuff. You're

00:28:29.540 always going to take out your comfort zone and I think you have to fail before you can

00:28:33.280 succeed. Uh, and again, even when I picked up the bell for the first time, I was terrible.

00:28:37.540 Like I said, like I was terrible. I couldn't swing it for Toffee and I was using my back and

00:28:43.260 my arms hurt and I wasn't using my legs. So I think anywhere on the road to succeeding,

00:28:48.420 you're going to fail slightly, but it's how you bounce back.

00:28:50.900 How do you overcome looking? I don't want to say looking stupid, but that, but having 0.98

00:28:55.480 the feeling of looking stupid or looking dumb or people ridiculing or mocking, because 0.99

00:28:59.480 I think this is what's holding a lot of men back from actually going to the gym in the 0.99

00:29:03.140 first place. How do you overcome that?

00:29:04.740 I think all of us, if we're not, if we're being honest, all of us are scared of failure,

00:29:07.860 right? Of course we are. But you know, like the whole point for me anyway, is that if I'm

00:29:13.200 failing at something or if I felt at something that drives me, that feeling that I don't

00:29:18.340 ever want to feel that feeling again, not necessarily. Maybe I'm embarrassed because

00:29:22.060 someone's seen me maybe, but more it's like, you know, I should be able to do this. It's

00:29:26.300 that competitive drive. So it just makes me more adamant that I need to practice and

00:29:30.100 practice and practice until I'm good at it. Like I said, I wasn't good with the bell

00:29:32.840 when I first started and other people were much, much better. I see my clients after I've

00:29:37.620 coached them, you know, for a few weeks and I wasn't swinging the bell that well when

00:29:40.660 I was, you know, you know, I only had a couple of sessions. So I think the failure should

00:29:45.080 be something that drives you. But I think we get knocked back and then we take it personally

00:29:49.380 and we're like, okay, we're no good at that. Well, we're not just good at some, get good

00:29:53.160 at something. We, we have to get good at it, right? So we're not just good at it. We have

00:29:56.980 to learn from our struggles and it makes us better in the long term, long run.

00:30:01.640 Right. Yeah. I mean, there, there's no baby born with a kettlebell next to him that can

00:30:04.860 swing that thing around, right?

00:30:05.760 Sure. I mean, there are some natural athletes out there, but even, even those, I mean, people

00:30:09.780 have called me a natural athlete. I mean, I've struggled with a bunch of stuff, learning

00:30:13.040 a bunch of things, you know, but that's the whole point. That's part of the journey, right?

00:30:15.940 It's what, it's what helps you, uh, stay focused on that goal.

00:30:20.440 Have you always been a man who's been competitive and driven or is this something that you've

00:30:24.540 acquired or learned over time or just through your experiences? Tell me a little bit about

00:30:27.640 that.

00:30:27.920 I was driven as a youngster, as an athlete, very driven. I was a very good swimmer and I was

00:30:31.660 potentially going to go to the Olympics in 2000. I gave up on that. That's a long story,

00:30:36.660 but I gave up on that. And I think, uh, up until I started working as a trainer and working

00:30:41.260 with the bell, I think I lost that competitive drive. You know, I lost my way a little bit,

00:30:44.800 like we mentioned before and, uh, didn't have a purpose. Didn't really know who I was.

00:30:48.760 So, but then, you know, now again, it's been reignited. So it, you know, it's been there,

00:30:53.740 but again, it has to, like anybody, I think people can connect with this, you know, people that

00:30:57.160 played sports when they were younger, that were really good and maybe aren't training anymore.

00:30:59.920 Uh, you know, it's still there. You just have to reignite it, you, you know, and not be scared

00:31:04.620 of failure. And it's going to be hard, you know, it's going to be really hard, especially if you

00:31:08.060 haven't trained for a while, it's going to be tough, but that's part of the journey. You have

00:31:10.880 to go through it, but you need a support network. You need to get the right type of coach. You need

00:31:15.420 to get that nutrition down. You need to make that commitment and have, like we've been talking

00:31:18.880 about those short term goals and that accountability. Sure. So to refine that motivation,

00:31:24.280 is it just a matter of finding something that you're engaged with that you're passionate about,

00:31:27.500 or is it a matter of being passionate and engaged with wherever and whatever you're doing in the

00:31:33.260 current moment? I think it's a bit of both, right? I think you, you know, you, like we said,

00:31:37.960 you, we said earlier, you do really have to have a passionate and emotional attachment to

00:31:42.200 any goal. It has to make a lot of sense. Uh, not to any, not just to anybody else, but to you,

00:31:48.180 you know, it has to almost define you in a sense, right? This is going to be your purpose for

00:31:52.780 however long you've decided to do this for. But in the same sense, I think it works both ways.

00:31:57.580 Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I certainly found that to be, be true in my life. So if somebody's

00:32:01.680 listening to this and they want to get started and they're thinking, man, John's really got this

00:32:04.560 stuff figured out. Like what is the best way to get started with kettlebell training?

00:32:08.360 Well, a lot of people go onto YouTube, right? And I've always been a bit weary of putting videos

00:32:13.340 on YouTube and trying to teach people on YouTube, but it is the medium that everybody tends to go to

00:32:17.440 first. I would suggest going to find a kettlebell coach who's certified either through, um, Steve

00:32:25.820 Cotter's qualifications or Pavel's qualifications. So a good qualification, check the qualification

00:32:31.100 out, um, and make sure that, you know, this person or this coach has a lot of experience.

00:32:37.440 It's really important that the coach knows what to do. It's not just someone that throws around the

00:32:40.340 bell in the gym because, you know, if you're taught badly in my experience, it's harder to reteach or to,

00:32:46.940 you know, to unteach poor technique and then reteach than it is to get, you know, with someone

00:32:52.060 who's got the swing down for, for example, really, really well. So make sure they're very well

00:32:56.280 qualified. Ask them about the qualification, how long it took them, uh, and do a little bit of

00:33:00.740 investigation yourself. Ask the right questions, right? Because when you choose a coach, you are,

00:33:05.420 um, allowing them to have free reign with your body and your mind, right? So if they're advising you

00:33:10.820 with your diet and your training, you know, you're giving them the okay to tell you what to do with

00:33:15.700 your body. So you need to make sure that they've got the qualifications and you're asking a lot of

00:33:19.560 questions so that, you know, don't just take it for granted that because they're a trainer,

00:33:23.940 they know what they're doing. Right. Yeah. And I think what happens a lot of the times too,

00:33:27.900 is they'll see somebody that has some obvious and apparent results. You know, if I were to look at

00:33:32.300 you, I can see that you're strong. I can see that you're fit. I can see that you take care of your

00:33:35.940 body. And I think a lot of times, and to speak to your point about seeing results, uh, regardless of the

00:33:44.180 way that you did it and trying to retrain bad habits, that's probably the worst thing that

00:33:47.780 could happen is it could actually work for you and to some degree. And then you think you've

00:33:51.420 got this all figured out, even though there are ways to expand and continually get better at this

00:33:55.340 thing. Right. That's so true. When you hit the nail on the head there, because that's, that's the

00:33:58.660 reason why I made this documentary, uh, peak physique, because, uh, there are coaches out there,

00:34:03.000 especially in this, in the realm of, um, you know, physique, uh, competitions with,

00:34:07.300 we're sold this, this image of somebody in a bikini or in a, you know, in a,

00:34:11.360 like a shredded dude is healthy and attainable and realistic. And, um, there's a lot of coaches

00:34:16.660 out there that have done one show that then, you know, or people that have done one show that

00:34:20.480 selling themselves as coaches online and they don't understand how the body works and they're

00:34:24.040 selling generic programs and hurting people. So I wanted to make a documentary to try and help

00:34:28.520 people make informed and, and, and healthy choices about choosing a coach, training, dieting,

00:34:34.540 uh, you know, and obviously there's the steroid issue as well, which is a huge thing.

00:34:37.680 And I wanted to do it naturally and show people that, you know, you don't have to take steroids

00:34:40.980 to get the body that you deserve, but it does take time, patience and a commitment,

00:34:45.660 you know? So again, you're right. That's, that's exactly it. You know, just because someone looks

00:34:49.300 the part, do a little bit more investigation. Right. Yeah. Well, what are some of the pitfalls?

00:34:54.380 I mean, we're winding down on time, but I do want to cover maybe some of the pitfalls or some things

00:34:57.940 to avoid or just be aware of as somebody's getting into, whether it's kettlebell training or just even

00:35:01.820 getting to the gym for the first time after years of, of not, what should somebody avoid doing?

00:35:06.600 You've really got to understand your body, right? When, you know, if you sign for the first out for

00:35:10.540 the first time, you know, get, obviously get some help, uh, either somebody who's been training for

00:35:14.680 a while, get a, you know, get a training buddy because the pitfalls are, you know, injuring

00:35:19.260 yourself, going too heavy, uh, over training. There's a big, big risk of eating too little.

00:35:24.160 Cause if you watch, if you, if you watch anything or you read online, there's a lot of, you know,

00:35:28.640 diet plans that will get you to cut calories to a ridiculous level, uh, and then get you to train

00:35:33.540 over what you should be. And that's just going to harm the body. We should, you need to fuel the

00:35:37.780 body. You need to, uh, train the body correctly, but you also need to recover and look after the

00:35:43.560 body as well. So the pitfalls are, you know, taking, you know, harmful diuretics, you know, uh,

00:35:48.300 you know, I don't think, you know, unless you're going to be a pro bodybuilder, you don't need to

00:35:51.360 mess around with steroids. Um, you know, minimal supplementation, whole foods, uh, a good coach

00:35:58.620 working on cardiovascular and resistance training, as well as getting a good nutrition plan put

00:36:03.580 together that's specific to you that incorporates good, you know, a good amount of calories and some,

00:36:09.580 you know, and some recovery, stretching and mobility, uh, components as well. Right. So you've

00:36:15.180 got to look at the whole system as opposed to just going to the gym and training like crazy and not

00:36:20.100 eating enough. And, uh, which a lot of people do, unfortunately. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, John,

00:36:25.300 I appreciate that. That's a really valuable. And obviously we're just skimming the surface. I want

00:36:28.740 to ask you a couple of questions as we wind down. Number one is what does it mean to be a man?

00:36:33.920 That's a really good question. I mean, I'm proud to be a man. I like liking myself as I'm a role model.

00:36:39.440 I'm trying to teach people every day how to, uh, you know, empower themselves and other people around

00:36:44.760 them to, uh, to make better choices, to inspire others. So for me to be a man is to try and to live

00:36:51.020 my life to the max and help people as I do that, you know, try and show people there is, you know,

00:36:56.580 you don't just have to conform, you know, to the nine to five, you can live your dreams. You can,

00:37:02.040 you know, you can reach, you can change the status quo. You know, I never filmed, I never filmed a

00:37:06.240 documentary before. I never made a documentary before. And I made a documentary, you know, if you can dream

00:37:10.760 big, you can achieve that to show people that you can actually be a bit, the best version of

00:37:15.780 yourself. Powerful stuff, man. I really appreciate you sharing. So if somebody wants to learn more

00:37:20.380 about the work that you're doing, including the documentary that you talked a little bit about,

00:37:23.700 how do we connect with you and watch that? Okay. So you can watch the documentary. You can

00:37:27.560 download it at peakphysiquefilm.com and your listeners actually have a promo code. So they join

00:37:33.160 Vimeo, add their email and add a password. And then they use the, uh, the promo code man.

00:37:39.340 Um, they get a percentage off. You can find me at Peak Physique Journey to the Stage on Facebook

00:37:44.580 or JM Training, JM Personal Training on Facebook. Twitter is, uh, John Mills at Peak Physique 15.

00:37:51.920 Uh, Instagram is Peak underscore Physique 2016. And I'd really love your viewers to watch it and let

00:37:57.900 me know what they think. We're getting some really good, you know, views and ratings and, uh, we're just

00:38:02.260 trying to get it out there and help as many people as possible. Awesome. We'll make sure we link up all

00:38:06.080 of those things in the show notes so guys can check that out. Guys, I encourage you to go check it

00:38:09.300 out. Obviously this has been a big component of, of my exercise and fitness regimen. So I'd

00:38:13.680 encourage you to get involved too. John, I want to let you know, I appreciate you. Thanks for taking

00:38:16.540 the time. Obviously you're an expert in this stuff and you understand what it is you're talking about.

00:38:20.220 I appreciate you. I appreciate you taking time to impart some of your wisdom with us today.

00:38:23.340 I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to you and your listeners. It's been fantastic.

00:38:28.960 There you have it, man. Mr. John Mills talking with us about the versatility of kettlebell training and

00:38:34.320 why you might want to start incorporating them into your workouts. Now go out there and get

00:38:38.140 training. But before you do, I want to make sure you learn about our elite mastermind,

00:38:42.640 the iron council. It is comprised guys of over 100 men all working to be the very best versions

00:38:47.460 of themselves. These guys are committed to themselves. They're committed to helping each

00:38:51.820 other succeed this month. We are reading because we do have a book club. The obstacle is the way

00:38:56.880 by Ryan holiday. And we're focused on the topic of becoming a man of value. So you can check out

00:39:02.440 the details at order of man.com slash iron council. And also make sure you go check out that store.

00:39:07.200 We've got the order of man store up and running. Now it's at order of man.com slash store for all

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Order of Man - September 06, 2016

OoM 077： Strength and Power in Kettlebell Training with Jon Mills

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