Order of Man - Optimizing Testosterone, When Masculinity Died, and Building Rites of Passages

00:00:00.000 Andrew Tate has capitalized on this. I think he's got diagnosis correct. I think his prescription

00:00:06.680 is wrong, but I think his diagnosis, he's pretty bright when it comes to him diagnosing what is

00:00:12.800 going on. But the reason that people are so compelled to a guy like that is because for a

00:00:20.040 boy or an adolescent or somebody who's a full-grown man but immature, what they see is clarity. What

00:00:26.820 they see is conviction and confidence. Kip, what's up, man? So great to see you. Not a better way to

00:00:32.820 close out the week than having a good conversation with a good friend, and hopefully we'll get some

00:00:37.720 good questions answered for the guys today. Yeah, absolutely. You know how it is. It's always great

00:00:42.900 to touch base with you. How's your week going? All as well? It's been good. Yeah, it's been a good

00:00:47.800 week. Had a couple of podcast interviews. I've got one coming out in a couple of weeks with a guy by

00:00:53.500 the name of Joshua Becker talking about minimalism, which was really good. Just released

00:00:59.880 the podcast last week on Tuesday with Lauren Ponce, which was really, really good. She's

00:01:08.660 very dynamic, got a lot of great information. And then I've got more of a philosophical one

00:01:14.420 coming up this week. So as of the release of this podcast, it will have been released yesterday.

00:01:18.440 And then I also released my interview with Scott Adams, the creator of Dilbert Comics.

00:01:23.380 He died earlier in the week, I believe it was. And I figured I should re-release that. I didn't

00:01:31.000 agree with the guy on everything, but I was so tired of seeing, I was at the gas station the other day

00:01:35.960 and the headline on the newspaper as I walked out said, Scott Adams, disgraced creator of Dilbert

00:01:45.180 Comics dies at 65 or whatever. And I'm like, what, what is this? Like, why, why do we do this?

00:01:51.460 And, you know, part of the reason that he was quote unquote disgraced is because years ago he had

00:01:56.100 made some racist comments for sure. Um, and so then he got canceled and all the, all the newspapers

00:02:04.240 pulled his comics and he was a very interesting thinker. Of course, I didn't agree with everything

00:02:09.180 as, as it would be with anybody, but you know, when you're, when your life is under a microscope

00:02:14.340 like that, and he wasn't even ultra famous, like some of these people, but when you speak for a living,

00:02:22.200 you share insights for a living, you talk for a living, the, the, the comments that we sometimes say

00:02:28.560 aren't any different than what people are thinking. It's just the fact that ours are recorded and

00:02:33.360 documented. So, I mean, we do have to be aware of that, but I just wish we had a little bit more grace

00:02:39.120 when people say dumb things or screw up, you know, if they do it repeatedly over and over again,

00:02:44.360 and based on what they're saying, you might make the argument that that's a immoral person,

00:02:48.160 but not in this case by any means. So it's just, it's wild. So I wanted to release that podcast

00:02:54.100 cause he was a very interesting thinker and I got a lot of value from it. So I re-released that one.

00:02:58.280 Good on you. So it's been busy.

00:02:59.660 And that, and that boat's looking awesome. The canoe. No, seriously, it looks so good. It's a beautiful,

00:03:06.040 like, even if that thing sinks, it's at least beautiful. So you can almost put that on the

00:03:12.100 wall and just say, look what I built. And they're like, Oh, do you put it in water? You're like,

00:03:15.080 I don't worry about that. It looks beautiful. It's a, it's more, it's more of a decoration than

00:03:20.620 it is functional, but it is. I don't know, man. It's been a fun. Yeah. It's the lines are nice and

00:03:28.620 everything's like coming together pretty well. I've got a couple of little minor hiccups that I'm

00:03:33.140 working through, but I think this weekend we're recording this podcast on Friday, but I think

00:03:37.260 this weekend I should have it, I should have it done ready for varnishing next week. So,

00:03:44.960 and that's the final, that's the final step is varnish and then it's done. So we'll see

00:03:50.060 varnish sand, varnish sand. But yeah, yeah. I made a post on Instagram the other day that apparently

00:03:55.660 I'll be sanding for the rest of my life because that's all it seems like I do, which is just crazy.

00:04:01.480 Yeah. But it's been fun. I have sawdust and, uh, and, and hailing wood chips. Oh, that's actually

00:04:07.560 a good, that's actually interesting. I, you know, light bulb moment for me, my throat's been hurting

00:04:13.000 this week. I'm like, what is going on? Am I sick? I'm an idiot. I didn't, that didn't even cross my

00:04:19.020 mind. I should wear a mask. I don't, but I should wear a mask. So maybe I will do that this weekend.

00:04:23.080 Yeah. At least do the hillbilly version. Get a, um, Oh my gosh. You know, like a gator,

00:04:29.220 something like a neck gator. Yeah. Just, uh, you know, put cloth around your, your mouth at least

00:04:35.760 like when we're building that house. Oh, good. I was just going to say, I'll just get it. What

00:04:40.520 do they call a shysty? I'll just get a shysty. I don't know. I think it's like a, like a balaclava,

00:04:47.600 like a, like a thing with like covers your, and it goes over your head and it covers your face.

00:04:52.480 I don't know. That's what I've heard. Oh, what I was thinking is a bandana, right? It's just like

00:04:56.080 put a bandana around. When I built that house, uh, at, at the lake, it was same thing, man. Like

00:05:01.140 just cutting wood on the, on the skill saw, uh, in the table saw, I was just like, dude, I am like

00:05:06.980 getting congested with wood dust. You know, it was getting, getting bad for you. Yeah. Absolutely.

00:05:13.000 Yeah. So I'll do that and we'll, we'll get on with it. Keep us updated. All right. Should we hop

00:05:20.280 into some questions? Let's get after it, man. See what these guys have for us here. All right.

00:05:25.400 We're going to jump over to the iron council, our brothers from the iron council. Um, Nick

00:05:30.920 Coda, anecdotally, I hear for a few guys in the IC have optimized their testosterone by going on TRT.

00:05:39.520 I recall you going that route as well. Can you talk about that journey and recommendations for

00:05:45.880 someone considering it? Yeah. And I think it's a very viable, um, solution. If you're having low

00:05:52.820 testosterone, I'm not a medical professional by any means. Um, and I am a little bit cautious of

00:05:58.160 men just rushing into TRT without knowing the side effects, without knowing the consequences,

00:06:04.180 without knowing the long-term ramifications, without doing proper blood work to make sure it's

00:06:08.540 something you even need. And ultimately without doing the natural things that just naturally boost

00:06:13.820 testosterone. And, and, and those are really easy. Everybody's really confused about this for some

00:06:18.660 reason, or, you know, I think it's one of those things where people love to make things more

00:06:23.740 complicated than they actually are. The best way to boost your testosterone naturally is to eat the

00:06:31.060 right foods, mainly protein, get the right amount of protein. And you could say 0.75 to one gram per

00:06:37.260 ideal body weight. So, um, you know, if you, if you're 180 pounds, you'd probably want to

00:06:44.100 ideally eat about 160 to 180 grams of, of protein on a daily basis. Simple. Um, get the proper amount

00:06:53.860 of sleep, you know, seven hours is about proper. Some need more, some need less, but proper amount of

00:06:59.280 sleep, uh, reduce chronic stress because cortisol will destroy testosterone. So that means that sleep is

00:07:06.400 important. That means, um, being able to regulate your emotions, having friends, having outlets,

00:07:11.860 having people that you can talk with, uh, doing the right things, being in integrity, because that

00:07:16.420 will reduce stress levels, uh, lift really heavy weights. You know, that, that's, that's proven to

00:07:22.640 boost testosterone, not running, not cardio sprints, maybe a little bit, but that's to be determined,

00:07:28.600 but lifting really heavy. Um, having sex actually boost testosterone rates. Uh, competing is another

00:07:36.720 thing that, that boost testosterone and winning more specifically competing against men and winning

00:07:41.280 will boost testosterone at least in the short term. So that's it. I mean, if you do those things,

00:07:48.680 you're going to boost your test, uh, cutting back on alcohol and sugars and things like that.

00:07:52.840 So yeah, that's going to boost your testosterone naturally. So what I would say is if this is

00:07:56.800 something that you have a problem with, chronic energy issues, um, maybe emotional regulation,

00:08:06.660 testosterone may not immediately help with that because it's going to mess with your hormones that

00:08:11.720 you'll have to get regulated again, but there's a lot of benefits to it. Building muscle, longevity,

00:08:17.440 quality of life, libido, sex drive, sleep, muscle development, all the things that we know as men

00:08:24.600 are just going to, going to enhance our lives and make us better protectors, providers, and presiders.

00:08:29.360 So, uh, yeah, the first thing is to work with a clinic that specializes in this department. Um,

00:08:35.260 your, your doctor, sure, maybe, but more often than not, you're going to have to go to a male clinic,

00:08:40.360 uh, because they, they know the ins and outs and intricacies of it. And, uh, you're going to do your

00:08:45.580 blood work, see where your testosterone is, make sure you're working with somebody who consistently

00:08:49.520 follows up with you and they'll be able to make recommendations as to whether or not this is

00:08:53.400 something you want to do and something you want to enhance or add to your, to your regimen.

00:08:57.980 I love it because here's the other thing is sometimes people think, Oh, you know, I'm going

00:09:03.080 to get jacked and fit and strong and want to have sex with my wife all the time. And it's going to

00:09:06.780 be amazing and everything else, but you still have to work. And that's the thing. It's not a,

00:09:11.860 it's not a short to hit the gym. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? Like, and people laugh at that

00:09:17.560 because they'll see guys who are jacked and like, Oh, he's on gear. It's like, yeah, maybe,

00:09:20.920 you know, I don't consider testosterone gear, but maybe he is, but he's also busting his butt

00:09:28.600 at the gym. He's also living the life that. And so it's just an amplifier of what you're

00:09:32.640 already doing. Testosterone isn't going to make you lose a bunch of weight if you're still

00:09:36.380 engaged in the same behavior. So you do have to change your lifestyle as well. But yeah,

00:09:41.100 I like it. I mean, energy, um, focus, clarity, muscle development. I'm bigger than I've ever

00:09:46.440 been like stronger than I've ever been in my entire life. So yeah, I love it. Yeah. Any side

00:09:52.520 effects? I mean, obviously there's side effects, um, any in particular that you've experienced?

00:09:59.440 Um, I think I did. And I don't, I'm sure I'm pretty sure that I don't want to speak

00:10:05.160 as if I know the answer to this, but I think I did read somewhere that, um,

00:10:11.260 your mood is going to change. And I noticed my mood changed initially. I didn't really,

00:10:17.980 really become overly aggressive. I actually became a little bit more emotional and it is,

00:10:23.880 which was interesting. And, you know, I think the body's way of regulating is they will also,

00:10:28.780 um, when you increase testosterone production, your body will also increase, uh, estrogen levels

00:10:35.680 naturally to kind of balance. Yeah. To compensate. Yeah. So there are things where you can do like an

00:10:40.620 estrogen blocker. I can't remember what it's, what it's called the popular one. Um, but again,

00:10:45.460 you would talk with your, your physician on that one. Um, elevated blood pressure is one that a lot

00:10:50.800 of people have to worry about. Um, I've even heard of guys having to go donate blood because it reduces

00:10:56.480 their blood pressure, um, from testosterone. And the other one, and this is the big one is that, um,

00:11:03.000 um, this is, this is a little bit, it's not controversial, but a lot of people debate this

00:11:09.660 topic, whether or not it shuts off natural testosterone production, or at least hinders

00:11:15.100 it. So if your body's seeing that you have a bunch of testosterone, then, then inherently it may not

00:11:20.680 make as much. Yeah. And then if you stop taking external testosterone, then again, this is where

00:11:27.440 people debate. So you'll have to do your own research on this. Then, uh, your body doesn't know how to

00:11:32.260 kick it back on to start producing its own. So that's why if you're going to do it, it's not like,

00:11:37.920 Hey, I'll do it for 90 days and see, it's like, no, you're, you're committing to doing this if

00:11:41.560 you're going to do it. So it's not to be aware of. Yeah. And the main thing is, is like, talk to a

00:11:46.740 professional about some of the side effects. I mean, I, I know I, I actually haven't taken TRT,

00:11:51.760 know a bunch of guys that I train with that do, you know, and there's, there's the jokes that we talk

00:11:56.820 about that are real, you know, it's like sometimes, you know, sexual drive goes up and they're

00:12:02.240 just more frustrated now with their spouse, not less. Yeah. Well, and the way that you combat that

00:12:09.300 is you be somebody that she wants to have sex with. Yeah. And that's one of the things that the

00:12:17.640 guys that a lot of guys struggle with most is they're still got to get her to have sex with you.

00:12:21.480 Yeah. Right. They're just, they're living lives out of integrity. They're not being helpful. They're

00:12:26.360 not being a good partner. They're not outproducing. They're not parenting correctly with, with their

00:12:30.480 wife. And so, yeah, she's not turned on and that's obvious. Yeah. And so I, what's the other stuff

00:12:36.920 like, um, peeing in the middle of night, swollen prostate, I think is a common one. The other one

00:12:42.340 is like your, your, your balls actually shrink, which is a little, uh, I've heard that from multiple

00:12:47.400 guys. Yeah. I've heard that too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of wild, but Hey, it's, and it's going

00:12:52.340 to be different for everybody. So like, just, you know, be careful, right. Make sure it's the right

00:12:56.880 thing and, and, uh, be aware of the possible side effects. Yep. Sweet man. All right. Mitch

00:13:02.840 Jameson question around rights of passage for men that never got initiated as boys. I was initiated

00:13:09.240 as a boy through hunting and fishing and survival skills. I'm asking to see what can most beneficial,

00:13:16.180 what can be most beneficial for men? Have I, as I've talked to feel that they were left out of that

00:13:22.660 as a child? What are the key pieces to hit on with initiations into manhood that I can be sure I don't

00:13:29.300 miss when attempting to help these men? Yeah. I mean, we've talked about this at length. I love

00:13:35.600 this question because you're, you're right. Unless you, unless you grew up hunting and you had your

00:13:40.180 father around or other good men in your life, a grandpa who initiated you this way. There's so many

00:13:44.800 men that I hear from every week who will say things like, I don't feel like a man, or I don't know

00:13:51.780 when I became a man. And that's, that's hard, but it's also good because as a man, you have the means

00:14:00.460 and the opportunity to do what men do. And I say this all the time. We talk about imposter syndrome

00:14:05.600 and I've kind of been beaten on it the last couple of, uh, of weeks. You're not an imposter if you're

00:14:10.600 doing the thing. So what do men do? Protect, provide, preside. If you're doing that and, or making

00:14:17.340 yourself more capable of doing those things, then you are being a man. Definitionally, definitionally.

00:14:24.040 So, um, yeah, there's a lot of guys who have not been quote unquote initiated, but there,

00:14:28.720 there are some factors. And by the way, if you hear some noise in the background, my,

00:14:32.440 my neighbor's doing a bunch of construction and building stuff. And I don't know if he blew up a

00:14:37.700 transformer the other day, my power went out for a couple hours, but it's crazy out there. So

00:14:41.880 you guys will just have to deal with it. I heard this big explosion. I'm like, what did he do?

00:14:46.220 Because he's got the excavator out and I thought he like ran into something. And then actually it

00:14:52.340 wasn't him that blew it up. It was, it was two blocks away and I heard it and, and I went out

00:14:58.520 to talk to him and he said, Oh, I just saw smoke and everything else. And they fixed it. But anyways,

00:15:02.940 um, so that's how you initiate yourself is blow up a transformer with your excavator. And then,

00:15:09.180 then you'll be a man. Then you'll be a man. Yeah. Yeah. Then you'll be a man, my son.

00:15:12.920 Um, but no, I think there are some key factors. So one I would say is isolation from women is a big

00:15:19.400 one. Um, and I'm not saying permanently, I'm just saying in the moment, you know, if it's an acute

00:15:24.920 rite of passage type moment, then it's being away from the women. If it's not acute, more of a

00:15:30.120 ongoing effort, it would be something like the iron council where it's for men. There's women are not in,

00:15:37.000 in the iron council. And we do that by design because you know, as a man, whenever a woman

00:15:42.120 enters the picture, it changes the dynamic. It doesn't make it wrong. Women being in the mix

00:15:47.900 is actually very beautiful and lovely. It's actually powerful that it changes.

00:15:52.420 Yeah. It says a lot about them. Yeah. And you know what happens? Like a woman comes around and

00:15:57.640 all of a sudden there's posturing and there's flirting and there's, you know, all sorts of weird

00:16:03.320 behavior that we laugh at our boys for doing, but we do the same dang thing. So I would say

00:16:08.560 isolation from women, either acutely or having an ongoing brotherhood where it's just the men.

00:16:13.840 And that could be your church group where you guys get together on, on a monthly or weekly basis or,

00:16:19.080 um, a Bible study group. I wouldn't just isolate it to pontification and pondering on the cosmos.

00:16:27.920 I think you actually need to get out there. And here's the second point,

00:16:31.560 introduce an element of risk to your rites of passage. If there's no risk, it's basically just

00:16:38.380 you're out for a walk and there's no struggle in that. There's no turmoil in that. There's no

00:16:43.500 overcoming anything in that. I think it also has to be deliberate. Like you can't just say,

00:16:48.660 Hey, we're going to go camp out this week and it's going to be a rite of passage. What, why,

00:16:52.240 why does a camp out automatically make it a rite of passage? Unless you're deliberate and intentional

00:16:57.360 about teaching key concepts, um, overcoming hurdles, overcoming challenge, facing your fears,

00:17:05.920 confronting your emotions, confronting the things that have gone well in your life and the things

00:17:10.980 that haven't gone well, confronting what you need to do in order to be a better man, having other men

00:17:15.580 confront you. So that's an aspect is making sure that you're around other good men who are calling

00:17:20.360 up and, and holding you accountable. And then I think there has to be some sort of, uh, conclusion

00:17:26.480 to it, you know, like, Hey, we're going to do this for, we're going to go on this hunt. And the goal is

00:17:31.280 to kill an animal. And that's our objective. And if we don't complete our objective, we have to come

00:17:36.580 back out here and here and do this again. Um, or our goal is to go out and build this, this barn for our,

00:17:44.660 our friend. Cause he needs some help this weekend and we're going to do this. And here's what we're

00:17:47.900 going to learn. And you're going to learn carpentry. And this guy's going to learn electrical

00:17:51.440 because we have an electrician coming and you'd learn and then it's done and you see it and you're

00:17:55.460 like, Oh, cool. There's the barn or there's the deer that I shot or whatever. And then there has to

00:18:01.040 be, there has to be a mark. So if you look at throughout human history, there's some really

00:18:06.880 good books on this. One that I like is manhood in the making by David Gilmore. But historically what

00:18:13.020 has happened when, when a, a young man or boy is looking to be initiated by the men of the village,

00:18:21.360 he's, he's stripped away from the village and from the women. Right. And she's crying and wailing

00:18:28.260 and gnashing of teeth. And she, he's literally pulled off his mom's tit, so to speak. Like you're

00:18:34.180 not going to be with the women. Now you're with the men. And then there's, you go out and you have to

00:18:38.240 kill an animal and go steal the, the, the bald Eagle's egg on a thousand foot cliff or go, you

00:18:46.620 know, I don't, I don't know, whatever you have to go do something. And there's a real element of risk

00:18:51.680 that you might not actually do it. And in ancient times that you might actually die trying. And then

00:18:57.820 you come back to the men and you show that you've done it. And then what happens is they'll usually

00:19:03.880 mark you. So you would have been circumcised or tattooed or branded or pierced. There would have

00:19:11.020 been some permanent mark that says to that boy and the village that this is now a man. He has a seat

00:19:18.200 at the man's table. And then you start treating him like that. Now I'm not saying that you should all go

00:19:23.160 out and, you know, like brand your, your sons or give them a tattoo at 10 years old or anything,

00:19:28.760 but there has to be some sort of token. I call it to acknowledge that you've done something.

00:19:34.060 So a token might be, Hey, we're going to go out and we're going to go camp, but we're going to do

00:19:38.580 these 10 to 12 skill sets. And you're going to do all 12 of these skill sets. And if you do,

00:19:43.120 when you complete it, you get your first knife or you get your first rifle or whatever that token

00:19:47.720 might be. And so, but you can do that with men as well. You know, maybe it's, Hey, when you complete

00:19:53.220 this and we're on this hunt, I do this all the time. Kip, you've hunted with me. When I go on hunts,

00:19:57.500 I usually bring stuff with me at whether it's a Montana knife company knife. And I give it to

00:20:01.920 the guys that I hunt with or a hat or a shirt, not a big thing, but just something that signifies

00:20:07.420 we did work. And, uh, and we're now bonded in that, in that effort. So I think those are some

00:20:15.040 things you can do that with young men and you can do that with peers and guys your age too.

00:20:19.660 Yeah. Right. And let me ask you this because I, I see the correlation between this conversation

00:20:25.200 a little bit and people like finding my purpose, right? Like it's this thing that needs to be

00:20:32.000 sought out versus it's this action that we choose constantly over and over. Right. And so what are

00:20:37.600 your thoughts around one, the rites of passage of manhood, but also being a man means that you're

00:20:43.880 continually taking action, that you're continually protecting, providing, presiding, and we can be

00:20:50.980 acting like a man yesterday and be acting like a boy and being foolish today. Right. And that this

00:20:57.960 is an ongoing effort on our part. Yeah. I mean, and we say funny things like, give me your man card.

00:21:04.620 And we're usually talking about somebody who, you know, cried inappropriately or something like that.

00:21:09.020 Like, give me your man or drives a Prius. It's like, give me your man card or misses a shot on a deer

00:21:14.180 at a hundred yards. All right. Give me your man card. And we joke about it, but there's actually

00:21:17.400 some truth to it. There is a code and I think there's a universal code and then there's a tribal

00:21:22.980 code and the universal code. I've already, I've already explained it three times in this podcast.

00:21:28.200 It's to protect, provide, preside. That's what being a man is in every culture. There's no other

00:21:34.480 culture that would, that would have an exception to that rule for men. The men are the protectors,

00:21:40.260 the providers, and the leaders, period. Now there's nuance in that. There's different ways to go

00:21:47.160 about doing that in different tribes and cultures throughout human history, approach it slightly

00:21:51.520 different. Not really all that much, but slightly, but that's the universal code. And then there's

00:21:57.020 the tribal code and the tribal code is, this is our family motto. Here's how we act as a family,

00:22:01.720 or here's how we act as a group of guys, or here's the behavior that we're engaged in. And if you don't

00:22:07.280 engage in that behavior, you're ostracized from the tribe. You're not part of the tribe. And maybe in

00:22:13.520 some cases you can earn your way back into it, but there's real consequences for not honoring the

00:22:18.900 tribal code. And yeah, you can lose your man card in the very real sense because you're not behaving

00:22:26.200 that way. And so, yeah, you, we look at guys and we're like, oh man, that, that guy's a man. Even if we

00:22:31.180 don't vocalize it and we ask, well, why? Well, maybe he did something heroic. Maybe he did something

00:22:36.320 courageous. Maybe he sacrificed some aspect of his himself or his own life to do something. And we

00:22:42.800 would call that guy a man. And then we see the guy in active shooter situations, for example,

00:22:47.560 and they're cowering in the corner and they're running away and they're not serving. They're

00:22:51.060 not protecting. And we say the opposite. That guy's, that guy is not a man. That guy is weak. That guy is

00:22:59.600 cowardly. That guy is pathetic, right? So we all have the capacity to be weak and cowardly and the capacity

00:23:05.880 to be strong and courageous. And you are what you do. Yeah. Love it, man. William Pinnell on team

00:23:14.480 Oscar. I often find myself hesitating to give advice to my team members, even when solicited.

00:23:20.140 I find that I rely what has or has not worked for me personally quite easily. I find it hard to tell

00:23:27.040 men. Definitely. This is the way I don't feel like I have the authority to tell anyone how they should

00:23:33.000 do something or revert back to my personal experiences. I want to be, uh, uh, I want to

00:23:40.460 be a quality team member and help others. How would you suggest I improve this skill

00:23:44.540 of giving advice to others? Well, I don't think the way you're approaching it now is wrong.

00:23:50.700 You know, you're saying, Hey, you know, if you're asking me for advice, I don't know your dynamic

00:23:56.240 fully. I don't know your personality. I don't know your situation, but here's, what's worked

00:24:00.160 for me. Have you given that a try? That's giving advice. I don't, I think that's a very humble

00:24:05.740 way to give advice. Um, you know, if you want to be more direct, what I would have you consider

00:24:12.660 is a mindset shift. You said something interesting about authority. I don't feel I have the authority.

00:24:18.300 That's an interesting word or choice there that you used. You do have the authority. If somebody's

00:24:24.500 given you the authority, and I think authority is given and authority is recognized. And Kip,

00:24:32.460 you might even have in some capacity, let's say a work environment, you might have the authority to

00:24:37.220 direct me around, but unless I honor that authority, you have nothing over me. Now there might be

00:24:42.600 consequences to me not following it, but we call it an appeal to authority. It only works if the

00:24:50.620 person believes in the authority. So if somebody, for example, comes on the podcast and they start

00:24:55.920 talking about Jesus Christ and God, and they're using that to make a case to somebody who's an

00:25:01.560 atheist, that's a bad argument because nothing you could say is going to convince that person because

00:25:07.880 you're appealing to an authority that that person doesn't recognize. So now how does that apply to

00:25:13.800 you? If I say to you, Hey, well, I'm really curious about how you work with young men. He's a school

00:25:18.540 teacher. So how you work with what young men. And when you're dealing with these kind of things,

00:25:23.040 like what, what kind of conversations are you having? That's me giving you authority over my life

00:25:29.740 in this little, this little measurement, but that's me giving you the authority. And who are you to say

00:25:35.300 that you, that I can't give that to you? You don't get to control me. I do. Now you can decide whether

00:25:41.220 or not you want to act on it, but have faith that if somebody's asking for advice, it's because they

00:25:46.100 want advice. Because how many times do people actually ask for advice? Very little, very little.

00:25:54.600 So if they're actually asking, it means they recognize you as an authority in whatever the

00:26:00.240 topic is and take, take heart in that. Be, be, be flattered, be, be gracious with what you're doing.

00:26:07.960 And again, I don't think the way you're doing it is wrong. It might be a little passive in some

00:26:12.420 cases. Maybe you just, you just work on saying you get rid of the disqualifiers.

00:26:19.300 Um, and you just vote like, Oh, so, okay. So a disqualifier would be, I think that that's,

00:26:27.140 that's, that's, that's a qualifier. Yeah. Right. Or, well, in my opinion, no shit. Whose opinion do

00:26:34.220 you, do I think you're going to give me? But we do that all the time. I do the, I think,

00:26:39.540 I think you should do this, but I don't need to say that. If somebody asked me for a question,

00:26:47.080 I probably should get away from saying, well, I think you should do this. No, you should do this

00:26:52.140 because I believe, or I think that people are smart enough to know that you think that,

00:27:02.100 or that it's your opinion. And if they don't, then they're an idiot. And that's not really going to

00:27:07.560 be a great relationship anyways. It's funny when, when I make a comment on social media,

00:27:12.480 people will say, well, that's all just, that's just your opinion. No shit.

00:27:16.320 Like, did you think that I thought it was something other than my opinion? Whose opinion did you want

00:27:23.620 me to share? Whose ideas did you want me to talk about on my platforms? It's such a silly thing to

00:27:30.720 say. I know it's my opinion. I don't need to qualify everything I say with, I think this, and in my

00:27:36.520 opinion, well, if you're asking me, all of that's already true. It's already baked into the cake. So

00:27:41.700 maybe use just a little bit more direct language and that might come across more authoritative.

00:27:47.500 Yeah. Yeah. I love the fact, William, that you're thinking about it. The, the thing that I would add to

00:27:55.340 kind of your thought process is you're not dictating what people do anyway. You're really not. You're

00:28:03.160 giving advice. There there's, there's agency and choice in what you say. So don't put so much weight

00:28:09.880 like, Oh man, I don't want to have these guys, you know, do exactly what they're not probably

00:28:15.380 not going to do what you suggest anyway. Right. Most of us kind of don't, they, they still have,

00:28:21.440 or they take half of what you say. They misconstrue it. They misunderstand it. And they

00:28:25.900 implement some bastardized version of your recommendation anyway. Right. Like we are all

00:28:31.040 adults. People have agency and choice. You are just facilitating and, or suggesting concepts

00:28:37.900 and ideas for them to consider, remove all the weight that you've put on giving advice to people.

00:28:44.880 And, and so operate from that perspective, there there's choices happening on their part.

00:28:49.420 That's up to them. I love the fact though, that you're thinking like, Hey, do I have the,

00:28:53.500 how do I serve these guys? It may be one way to consider if you're kind of like still stuck on,

00:28:59.780 well, I don't want to come across as authoritative, authoritative, right. Or,

00:29:04.160 or too opinionated, just share what works for you. It's as simple as that. If Ryan goes, Oh,

00:29:10.680 I think, you know, Kip, what should I do in this circumstance? I'd be like, I don't know.

00:29:14.560 There's a lot of nuance there, Ryan. What has worked for me is what I have seen be effective in

00:29:20.540 my life is, and you're just sharing what's, what's present for you and what has worked for you.

00:29:27.360 And then they'll decide what that looks like for them. Yeah. I think that's well said. And you know,

00:29:33.480 there's another funny dynamic at play here. People who are trying to change

00:29:38.540 characteristics or personality traits, or just change who they are, their identity and how they

00:29:44.260 show up. They're always so worried about, well, I don't want to be too fill in the blank.

00:29:49.560 Come across too much a certain way. Yeah. I don't want to come across as too much. I don't want to be a

00:29:54.680 dictator. I don't want to. And then conversely, you might have a guy who knows he needs to tone

00:29:59.480 it down a little bit. He's like, well, I don't want to be too passive. I don't want to be too

00:30:02.220 timid. I don't want to be too weak guys. You won't because you're you there. There's no,

00:30:08.600 there's no possible way, no possible way for me to be a passive individual. It's just not possible.

00:30:18.180 Yep. I can change the way I can communicate. I can be more thoughtful. I could be more empathetic.

00:30:24.680 I can listen more. I can change the way I structure sentences and feedback, but I will

00:30:30.780 never, ever, ever be a passive person. I can't. It's not my nature. So, well, you're never going to

00:30:39.440 be a jerk. I know you guys. That's not in your nature. Even if you say things differently than

00:30:46.820 you are now, you're not going to come across as an a-hole. I promise you, you're going to feel like

00:30:51.620 you are, but nobody's going to read it that way. Cause it's not you. Totally. You know, I love,

00:30:57.780 dude, I I'm so glad you brought this up. We get into this a lot where we'll go, well, it's the

00:31:03.460 conduits communication and it's in the communication that people have perception, not necessarily all

00:31:09.320 the time. I'll share a quick example of this. A couple of years ago, I moved from a director role

00:31:14.940 into an executive role. I went from having peers to being in a senior leadership role where I affected

00:31:21.400 my peers. Immediately at that time, I did a leadership assessment. I asked for feedback

00:31:27.220 from those peers that now were kind of below me. If you want to use that term from an organizational

00:31:32.580 hierarchy perspective, the feedback Ryan pissed me off. Made me irate. I was so annoyed by the feedback.

00:31:41.840 The feedback was Kip is arrogant. He's self-centered. He thinks he's superior than everyone

00:31:48.220 else. I'm like, and I, one, I was, my ego was crushed, but there was an element where I was like

00:31:56.060 really being self-evaluated. And I was like, is that true? And I couldn't feel it. I was like,

00:32:03.500 that's not me. I don't think I'm better than them, but it was enough that it really questioned

00:32:09.580 myself. Here's the funny part. I'm like, actually, it's not how I communicate. It's not, it's, I

00:32:18.740 shouldn't be less passionate about what I'm talking about. I should not have less drive and I shouldn't

00:32:25.820 reduce how I'm communicating. The issue is they don't know me well enough.

00:32:32.200 And so my focus for a quarter was established better relationships with them. I didn't dim my

00:32:41.540 light. I made sure that they knew me, that they had a relationship with me. And what would you know?

00:32:50.180 Changed nothing around communication, but what happened in six months? Kip is such a great servant

00:32:55.460 leader. He helps me so much. He's a stud. Nothing changed about my communication.

00:33:01.900 I just established relationship. So maybe, and I'm glad you brought this up because I think this

00:33:06.920 works out perfect for William. You don't want these guys to perceive you as a know-it-all. Guess what?

00:33:12.280 They need to know you. You need to build leadership capital with them to be in a position to influence.

00:33:18.860 And guess what? When you have leadership capital and influence, you can be a complete asshole and

00:33:23.760 people will go, yeah, but I know William and he's a stud. Exactly. It's about the relationship. It's

00:33:29.900 not about how are you communicating? Yeah. Good point. Really good point. Well, it's your point.

00:33:35.600 You brought it up and I'm like, oh my gosh, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

00:33:39.380 My point was a good point. What are you talking about? I'm just glad I could riff on it.

00:33:45.740 All right. What's next? All right. Nick Rowe. I think back to a guest you had on the podcast a

00:33:51.640 couple of years ago that said he, he believed that masculinity died off not long after world

00:33:56.880 war two and was reborn sometimes in the eighties and nineties. And that this new wave of masculinity

00:34:02.380 was largely encouraged by women. It was a very domesticated masculinity, masculinity, largely

00:34:09.160 represented by the proverbial sitcom dad that could be considered masculinity in its infant stage.

00:34:17.960 He then moved on to say that the rise of the manosphere and figures like Andrew Tate represent

00:34:23.580 masculinity in its adolescent stage. Do you believe assuming you follow his model at all

00:34:28.800 that we have moved out of the adolescent stage into maturity or are we still in the adolescent stage?

00:34:36.200 I think, well, so stage is interesting. I, I, that's, that's an interesting word.

00:34:42.460 I think it's more cyclical than just progressive or linear stages where it's the hard times create good

00:34:50.620 men, good men create good times, good times create weak men. It's that, it's that whole adage. And, and I,

00:34:55.760 and I ascribe to that. And when you have, when you have desperate times, you know, depressions and world

00:35:03.300 wars and famine and poverty, men step up painfully, sometimes slowly, sometimes with a lack of, of

00:35:13.600 composure and grace and class, but we do, we step up and we get things done. And then when everything's

00:35:21.560 fixed as it will be, and it takes time and it's painful and it's violent in some cases, but when

00:35:27.700 everything settles down, then we were, we go back into like rest and recovery mode. And you've heard

00:35:34.900 me talk about the analogy of the ax that's on the wall and the, in the, um, the fire extinguisher and

00:35:40.820 the ax on the wall in the hotel or the corporate office where it says in case of emergency blip break

00:35:44.800 glass here, that's what happens. So we're, we're facing a time and Andrew, Andrew Tate has capitalized on

00:35:51.740 this. Um, I think he's got, I think he's got a lot of the diagnosis. Correct. I think his prescription

00:36:01.500 is wrong, but I think his diagnosis, he's pretty bright when it comes to him diagnosing what is

00:36:08.360 going on with, with men and culture. And I would agree with a lot of what he says, but his prescription

00:36:14.380 is off. But the reason that people are so compelled to a guy like that is because for a boy or an

00:36:23.180 adolescent or somebody who's a full grown man, but immature, what they see is clarity. What they

00:36:30.660 see is conviction and confidence in the, in the absence of their own clarity and conviction,

00:36:36.480 that looks pretty enticing. That guy must know what he's talking about because look at the way that he

00:36:43.180 says it, he says it with conviction and he is very compelling and he makes good points and he knows

00:36:49.800 how to pit people against each other. And he plays class warfare and tribalism. Like he knows he's very

00:36:54.180 good at that. So it's compelling. Another example of that, who I think has it more right than the

00:36:59.740 prescription, more right than Andrew Tate, although not fully is Jordan Peterson. Jordan Peterson is an

00:37:05.400 authority figure. He he's, he's a, he's a college professor. He's obviously an intellect. He's achieved

00:37:11.740 huge levels of notoriety and fame and success. And he speaks very eloquently. He's a master of the

00:37:18.880 length, the, the, the human language, English language. And so in the absence of a man, not

00:37:25.320 knowing what he ought to be doing, he's naturally going to be looked to be fathered by the man who's

00:37:30.200 competent and confident. So that's, what's happening is that I think that there were still have some

00:37:36.780 adolescence. Um, I still think we're trying to figure things out. I think there's a lot of grown men

00:37:43.920 aged guys who never really spent time around men. They were raised by single mothers. They went to

00:37:51.680 school for 12, 13, 14, 16 years, and were either taught by, uh, women, 75% roughly of, um, of school

00:38:01.460 teachers, public school teachers are women. And then they go to therapy because all the women told

00:38:06.540 them to go to therapy and roughly 75% of therapists are women. So then they're getting therapized by

00:38:12.840 women. Uh, and it's no wonder to me why men have this like just frustration. I know I should be doing

00:38:22.660 more. I know I want to dominate. I know I want to be aggressive. I know I want to be stoic. I know I

00:38:26.820 want to go on taking the world. I know I want to take risk and challenge myself and push myself and

00:38:31.340 enlist other. I know all of that. And then society says, dangerous. Uh, you go back in that case

00:38:39.140 cause it's not an emergency right now. And you tamper that down. You, you withhold that. You

00:38:46.180 don't share that. You don't put that out into the world. You need to sit down, be quiet, shut up,

00:38:50.560 color within the lines and do what you're told. We'll break the glass when we're ready for you.

00:38:54.300 And so it's no wonder that men are frustrated and pissed and confused. So we need to embrace

00:39:02.420 the masculine side. And you can only do that by being around other men who have already done that,

00:39:08.480 who know how to do that, who celebrate it, who honor it, and who teach you how to use your God-given

00:39:14.820 talents and gifts and abilities and characteristics and traits for the betterment of your life and for

00:39:20.660 other people. And I think that will change as times get hard and they will, we're going to see

00:39:27.740 more men step up. It's inevitable. I mean, this is the pendulum, right? I mean, you can only demonize

00:39:34.660 masculine things so much for men to start seeking like, where am I supposed to go? Right. And they

00:39:40.600 hear some messaging that celebrates some masculinity and there's like, Oh, finally some clarity that I'm

00:39:46.220 not broken. I'm not, you know, the way I feel is not necessarily wrong. And, and that's what Jordan

00:39:52.320 Peterson and Tate do, whether we agree with their tactics or not is a different story, but like,

00:39:58.020 that's, that's what guys are seeking, right? Because not only are we asked not to be masculine,

00:40:02.760 it's being demonized this entire time as well. And it's, you know, where, where do you go with that?

00:40:08.260 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's wild times. You know, it's funny how it's just crazy how soft we have it,

00:40:15.900 you know? Like when I think about society and I think about the last lack of masculinity, it's just

00:40:21.000 because we're built upon these systems that don't require it of anybody. Right. Why? And we can,

00:40:27.640 we can be feminine than is needed. Yeah. Yeah. Men, men thrive when our backs are against the wall.

00:40:35.320 Like when you're really digging in, clawing and scraping, cause you're in a financial hardship

00:40:40.420 or relational breakup or a divorce or like whatever. And you're just suffering. Yeah,

00:40:46.420 sure. Some men crumble and they can crumble because they're allowed to crumble. Society has

00:40:51.660 all these little, little there's options backstops in place to make sure, you know, like, Oh, you lost

00:40:56.540 your job. Cool. We'll pay you forever. Oh, you're having a hard time making your payments. Cool. Here's a

00:41:01.820 little extra money from somebody else. Who's actually working hard. So we've got all these

00:41:05.480 little backstops in place to protect people. But when it's just you, it's like, I got to do what

00:41:13.200 I got to do. There's a really great scene in, um, I think it's called the gray or gray with Liam

00:41:20.120 Neeson. Have you seen it? 50 shades of gray. No, I haven't watched that movie. No, no. Yeah. I would

00:41:26.420 not want to watch 50 shades of gray with Liam Neeson or yeah, that's a weird image. Um, he's

00:41:34.240 like tiring it up. He's like, I will find you. Yeah. And when I do, um, yeah, I have a very

00:41:42.060 special set of skills. She's tied up on a bed. It's like, Oh gosh. Um, no. So I think it's

00:41:52.620 called gray and he long story, long story short. It's a, it's a cool movie. It's a little

00:41:57.540 slow, but it's a cool movie at the end. He ends up, he's trying to rescue himself and

00:42:01.560 other people, but he ends up stumbling into a wolf den and everybody has died except for

00:42:08.820 him. He's the last man standing. And he realizes he's in the wolf's den and he starts grabbing

00:42:15.540 like a bottle. He breaks a bottle. He puts like grabs rocks, like everything he can. And he

00:42:21.300 like tapes them to his hands and he just like puts up his dukes. Like, all right, let's

00:42:26.580 go. Let's go. He's got glass shards taped to his knuckles and he's going to go out swinging

00:42:32.440 because that's the only choice he has. Now he died, I think, but you know, it's still an

00:42:38.100 interesting story. It's like you, when it's just you and there's no safety behind you,

00:42:44.720 there's no safety stops. You'll do whatever you need to do. And that's a really powerful position

00:42:50.480 to be in. We don't want to be there. It's not comfortable, but it's powerful.

00:42:55.300 Yeah. Yeah. Mike, uh, Mike Arndel, Arndelfer. How do you lead your sons through a current social

00:43:03.420 environment, particularly when it comes to their futures? I have three boys, two in college,

00:43:07.760 one in high school, less concerned about the effect of masculinity, but more career and financial

00:43:14.220 oriented. The days of graduating high school and getting a job at the local mill and getting

00:43:18.800 a professional degree that allow a man to typically make enough money to put down payments on a house

00:43:24.160 and support a family are unfortunately behind us. And that alone is enough, uh, to wound any man's

00:43:30.680 purpose, much less one just starting out. What are your thoughts? I mean, I, I would, I would agree

00:43:36.160 with that assessment. I think it's much harder for a young man to get ahead financially in this

00:43:40.920 climate than it has been for the past several decades, at least, you know, and even when, even when I

00:43:47.900 started order of man just 10 years ago, the climate has just changed immensely. Um, people's income is,

00:43:56.260 is struggling. The, the inflation is rising. There's so much financial stress on people. We

00:44:03.160 still live in a really abundant, prosperous time. The market's doing well, which is weird. So that just

00:44:08.040 goes to show there's a lot of manipulation going on and taking place. It's a very, it's a very weird

00:44:12.900 time. So the best thing that you can do for a young man is to teach them the skills they'll be,

00:44:21.140 they'll need to, to survive. Whether we're talking about the movie, the gray, and you're going to go

00:44:27.180 out there and be a survival guy and, and you're gonna have to face all the wolves. You need to know

00:44:30.940 the skills or the financial skills. So a couple of things come to mind. Financial discipline to me

00:44:37.520 is huge. I think that is hurting more people financially than just about anything else.

00:44:44.860 We live in an age of consumerism. I, when I had, uh, Joshua Becker on the podcast about minimalism,

00:44:51.660 he, he said to me that on average, the, uh, an average human being is advertised to 5,000 times per day,

00:45:01.680 5,000 times. And if you don't know financial discipline, you're going to succumb to a lot of

00:45:10.560 that advertising. You're going to go buy this and buy that and keep up with this person and keep up

00:45:14.600 with that person. And it's killing us. You know, and then we look at the cost of, of homes today.

00:45:23.420 Exorbitant. I mean, just now I don't think we're comparing apples to apples when we compare a home

00:45:27.660 that was built in 2025 relative to something that was built in 1965. It's, it's a significantly

00:45:33.680 better product. At least it should be than it was before. So we're not comparing apples to apples,

00:45:38.540 but even still the amount of things that we need in our lives is crazy from air conditioning to

00:45:46.480 internet to, uh, phones, subscriptions. Here's another one. I just, I just got an email from the

00:45:54.780 local car wash here and it said, Hey, you're, you're billing every, every, uh, month is going

00:46:00.900 from $20 to $29 or something like that. I was like, okay, wait, let me do the math on this. So

00:46:07.080 the average car, the cost of a car wash there is like seven bucks and it's now $30. So that means

00:46:14.140 that I would need to do just over four car washes a month to justify that. And when's the last time I

00:46:21.220 washed my truck? Oh, two months ago. Yeah. I think I'll get rid of the subscription, but we are being

00:46:29.540 killed in a death by a thousand cuts. Your Netflix subscription, your paramount, your UFC, your car

00:46:36.560 wash subscription, your foot, your phone. And then, and then we think like when you go buy a new phone

00:46:41.440 that, and this is planned obsolescence is what they call it. These things are designed to break down

00:46:46.600 and they know when they're going to break down. Even your cars. Is it any surprise to you? I can't

00:46:54.100 believe that people don't really consider this, but how is it that your car falls apart right after

00:46:58.860 the warranty expires? How is that possible? Because it's designed to do that. There's literally

00:47:06.260 engineers on record describing parts that are designed to break after a certain amount of wear

00:47:12.920 and tear of usage. They're designed to break after the warranty as we are being so manipulated and

00:47:20.360 taken advantage of. And then you think, well, my phone, my cell phone built only a hundred bucks.

00:47:24.040 Yeah. But you just paid $2,000 for that phone. What, what could $2,000, $2,000 could have done

00:47:32.380 if you just kept your phone a little bit longer? What could that have done for you? Now you have to

00:47:37.300 weigh the cost and if it's appropriate and everything else, but if you can't have financial discipline and

00:47:42.360 you can't teach your kids financial discipline, yes, there's the other things about how to grow a

00:47:46.320 business and put them in the right environment and invest wisely and learn how to invest.

00:47:50.760 Being around financially literate and successful people, not only will teach them what they need

00:47:55.700 to know, but it'll also expose them to opportunities that other people don't have. You know, when people

00:48:01.200 say the rich get richer, of course they do because they know how to do it. It's just such a silly

00:48:06.700 phrase. Oh, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Yeah. Obviously. Why is that the case

00:48:12.660 though? Because wealthy people know how to build wealth. So put yourself in proximity to those

00:48:17.160 individuals. Man, I could go on this stuff all day. I love this stuff. Totally. Totally. There's a

00:48:21.520 couple of points. You know, Mike, I, I was teaching some high school students yesterday and the

00:48:27.620 conversation was around the importance of having homes where things are peaceful, right? Where it,

00:48:35.540 where our homes are an escape from the chaos of school, social life, and these other things.

00:48:42.380 And as we're talking about this, I'm thinking, Oh, I'm talking with high school kids. Mark my word.

00:48:47.180 They all believe that if their home is not a place of refuge, that it's not their fault,

00:48:52.540 that it's actually up to the mom and dad to determine that. And they're just victims of it.

00:48:57.260 And so I latched onto this idea and I said, there are two people in this world. There are people who

00:49:03.720 believe that their life is made up of things that happen to them, victimhood, or people that make

00:49:11.960 things happen. And then we double down on how do you move to making things happen? What's within

00:49:20.280 your realm of control? And, and Mike, when I see the circumstance, I'm not saying our social situation

00:49:26.240 is not difficult. It absolutely is, but it's really important as parents that we teach our kids to move

00:49:34.020 to what are you going to do about it? And you move to action and you're not in this space of it's

00:49:41.660 happening to you. And what was you guess what? It's tougher to own a home than it's ever been.

00:49:46.900 All right. So son, what are you going to do about it? What can you do about it? What's within your

00:49:53.320 realm of control? Mike, I think you heard what Kip had to say about not painting yourself as a victim,

00:49:58.640 which I wholeheartedly agree. So with that said, I think that's a good sign that we'll wrap it up

00:50:03.660 today. Guys, you had some really, really good questions. I know I kind of went off on my soapbox

00:50:08.040 today, but some of those questions were powerful. And I think it's really important that we ponder and

00:50:13.300 consider how these ideas and the answers to the questions will impact our lives and also the lives

00:50:19.680 of the people that we care about. And that's one theme that I saw in the conversations today from

00:50:24.060 rites of passage to how do I give advice to other men to how do I teach my boys about finances and

00:50:31.380 money? And I can see that where our heart was today was paying it forward and helping other men on their

00:50:39.760 journey, which I love to see. I think that's a big part of what it means to be a man adding

00:50:43.060 value in people's lives. So we did talk about the iron council a little bit, guys. If you want to

00:50:47.100 check that out, head to order of man.com slash iron council. We are open right now. And we just had,

00:50:53.520 I think three or four people sign up just yesterday, which was very cool. So we're growing and it's

00:50:58.580 exciting to see the new men come in there. We had a great call this morning with, with our guys.

00:51:03.500 That's an iron council wide call. And I love that these guys are able to communicate with each

00:51:08.640 other, that they can talk with each other, that they can work through their struggles together.

00:51:12.920 And that's a big part of what we're doing there. So make sure to check that out again,

00:51:15.980 order of man.com slash iron council. All right, guys, we'll be back on Friday until then go out

00:51:21.280 there, take action and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man

00:51:26.280 podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

00:51:31.020 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - January 21, 2026

Optimizing Testosterone, When Masculinity Died, and Building Rites of Passages ｜ ASK ME ANYTHING

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