Order of Man - Own Your Shit ｜ DAVE FIELDING

00:00:00.000 If you're like me, when you were a young boy, you had dreams of growing up to be an American hero and or a spy like James Bond.

00:00:08.560 But what does that actually mean in real life? And what does it take to get there?

00:00:13.400 My guest today is a man who has done just that. His name is Dave Fielding.

00:00:17.540 Green Beret turned American spy. And today he shares some of his insight into the world of U.S. intelligence,

00:00:24.700 including what we can do to protect ourselves and maintain our rights.

00:00:28.420 We talk about how arrogance hurts you, but also how it might be able to help.

00:00:33.880 How the common citizen deciphers between false and accurate information. 1.00

00:00:38.900 The importance of owning your shit, as he likes to say. 0.99

00:00:41.640 The power of asking yourself why in all things and how self-awareness leads to a fulfilled life. 1.00

00:00:49.020 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest.

00:00:51.980 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:54.660 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time.

00:00:58.060 Every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient. Strong.

00:01:04.420 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become.

00:01:08.660 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:14.020 Gentlemen, what is going on today? I am Ryan Michler.

00:01:16.800 I'm the host and the founder of this podcast and the movement that is called Order of Man.

00:01:20.760 Thank you for being here. Thank you for tuning in.

00:01:23.680 If you're a man on the path, and I don't really care where you are on the path. 0.98

00:01:27.940 Maybe you are at the pinnacle of your achievement up to this point, or maybe you feel like you're failing in every single way.

00:01:35.940 As a father, husband, business owner, community leader, it doesn't matter to me.

00:01:39.240 What I want to do is give you everything that you need to thrive as a father, husband, business owner, community leader, coach, mentor, friend, etc.

00:01:48.040 So you're in the right place.

00:01:49.360 If you're a man and you want to get better, I want to give you the resources you need.

00:01:53.520 And primarily, the way that we do this on this podcast is by interviewing incredible men.

00:01:57.880 These are warriors, like I have on today, Dave Fielding, athletes, scholars, New York Times bestselling authors, you name it, entertainers.

00:02:08.300 I mean, we've got them all. We've got them all.

00:02:10.380 Terry Crews, Tim Tebow, Tim Kennedy, Ben Shapiro, Dave Ramsey, Jocko Willink.

00:02:18.580 We've got so many incredible men who have joined the mission to reclaim and restore masculinity.

00:02:24.080 Now, I've got a great one lined up for you today.

00:02:25.660 I'm going to introduce you to my guest in just a minute.

00:02:27.760 Before I do, I want to mention my friends over at Montana Knife Company.

00:02:32.700 As of the release of this podcast, I am hunting in Hawaii.

00:02:37.080 I'm very, very excited about it.

00:02:38.960 Hopefully, I'm able to get it done with my friends out there.

00:02:42.220 And I just packed today.

00:02:44.300 And one of the things that always gets packed on my hunts is my Montana Knife Company knives.

00:02:49.940 I test these things. I use these things.

00:02:52.620 I take them on every hunt that I belong or go to.

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00:02:57.840 Everywhere I go, I've got a Montana Knife Company knife on me.

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00:03:23.740 Again, MontanaKnifeCompany.com.

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00:03:28.940 All right, guys.

00:03:29.660 Let me introduce you to my guest.

00:03:31.040 His name is Dave Fielding.

00:03:32.040 He is a former U.S. Army Green Beret turned three-letter agency spy.

00:03:37.080 You're going to hear me talk a little bit about that on the podcast today on the conversation.

00:03:40.780 But he had a part to play in the events that led to the death of ISIS leader al-Baghdadi and Iranian military commander Soleimani.

00:03:49.380 I think you're really going to be interested in these stories.

00:03:52.100 He's also the author of Into the Darkness, A Journey of Love, War, and Emotional Freedom.

00:03:57.600 And inside his book, he chronicles his time in the military and the U.S. government to protect American freedom.

00:04:04.180 He also unpacks his struggles with darkness and depression and suicide and how he has overcome all of it.

00:04:11.340 As a Bronze Star recipient, he now takes that knowledge from wartime and brings it to the public and corporations to improve their fitness, nutrition, sleep, and ultimately, this is very, very important, their mental health.

00:04:22.980 Guys, enjoy this episode with Dave Fielding.

00:04:26.720 Yeah, that's the real challenge is guys like us who are capable and can figure things out.

00:04:33.120 The trick is not always having to do it ourselves because we're capable of doing it ourselves.

00:04:38.960 But I think a lot of times we short ourselves when there's other professionals out there who could do it a whole lot better than we can.

00:04:46.360 Absolutely.

00:04:47.100 I mean, it's men supporting men when you think about it.

00:04:50.580 It's the hardest thing that we have is asking for help.

00:04:53.940 You know, that's something that we have to learn and do often.

00:04:56.980 I think past couple episodes, this is something that you articulate is that we all try to pull each other up, you know, even in the smallest ways, you know, and just admitting to yourself. 0.99

00:05:08.980 A lot of what I talk about in my book is like finally owning all those internal conversations, as I like to say, owning your shit. 0.99

00:05:16.720 Right. And and so it's like admitting that, you know what, I don't know anything about this. 0.99

00:05:22.420 Maybe I should, you know, seek out, seek out somebody that knows what they're doing.

00:05:26.840 You know, ask them about it because it's all about growth.

00:05:30.560 It's it's weird to me that we we don't do it.

00:05:33.220 I mean, we posture. I do it, too.

00:05:34.980 I'm not I'm not saying everybody else.

00:05:36.540 I'm saying, like, I do it, too, but we posture and we pretend that we're better than we really are. 0.98

00:05:42.340 I understand why we do it, but it's dumb. 0.95

00:05:46.520 I mean, there's no other way to say it. 0.98

00:05:47.760 It is truly dumb, especially probably in your line of work where, you know, the consequences, for example, of me deceiving myself are probably not that great in the grand scheme of things. 0.93

00:06:01.400 Because the consequences of you not doing these things literally spells life and death. 0.97

00:06:10.060 Well, I actually I would slightly disagree with that in that I think it's important that when you deceive yourself, you're not being true to who you are.

00:06:20.760 And it's just as dangerous as it was, you know, for me as a Green Beret turned spy, right, working in this world that deception is the number one, you know, one of our key things that keeps us safe.

00:06:32.620 But when looking at us as the individual, as the man, when in in in in what I talk about in my book is what you're seeing is a guy who is believing the deception of everything around him.

00:06:49.320 Right. And that I let it take hold in me.

00:06:53.280 I became someone else.

00:06:54.800 I, you know, and I didn't stay true to the values of who I am.

00:07:00.860 Well, I actually really want to break that down.

00:07:03.120 I spent some time thinking about what we wanted to talk about today and researching what you've been up to.

00:07:09.120 You said, and I quote, deception is what keeps you safe.

00:07:12.460 Right.

00:07:13.500 But I imagine it's very difficult when you live a life of deception.

00:07:17.800 And that's what you were doing as a professional, whether it's in as a Green Beret or working for any of the three letter agencies that the U.S. has or or something completely different, even being an actor. 0.98

00:07:30.620 I wonder how often men like you and and actors on a different scale, how often they buy into their own bullshit with all due respect. 0.98

00:07:42.220 Yeah, totally. 0.99

00:07:44.480 No, totally.

00:07:45.160 And it it really I think in order to get at these apexes at the at the U.S. government, whether you go join Special Operations Command, working at a three letter agency, special forces, Navy SEAL or go Ranger Regiment.

00:08:03.060 And any of those, as I like to say, the adventure plus package options of life, it's you're going to get to a certain point where, you know, your experiences, they're going to tell you I'm a very competent person and you have to be very, very careful.

00:08:19.680 I mean, I see you see arrogance in some of these these circles and you just, you know, in order to really grow, you have to be really mindful of yourself.

00:08:29.140 And it's it's more of a it's self-awareness is probably one of the most powerful things that you can develop over just in having like that growth mindset and being able to go out there and try new things.

00:08:43.560 And I mean, when I when I went from a green beret to become a spy, I was just like, all right, I'm going to just I think this stuff is cool, dude.

00:08:53.240 I'm just going to jump in with two feet and figure it out.

00:08:55.960 And and I got a good big old slice of humble pie, you know, because I'm entering into a whole community where they you know, they're all tired of the James Bond movies of SF guys and Navy SEALs coming in and be like, you know, take it indoors and the bravado and everything.

00:09:13.340 And and to that to kind of come full circle, what we were talking about at the beginning here is that I had to become someone else.

00:09:23.500 I totally had to become someone else.

00:09:25.500 I had to become I couldn't be the guy who was in the operational detachment alpha.

00:09:32.700 That's a special forces ODA in that we say a team room, which is like a locker room.

00:09:37.720 And you've got a bunch of hardened type A personalities who, you know, signed up to go kill, capture enemy.

00:09:45.700 And, you know, is that have a place in the intelligence community?

00:09:50.420 It does.

00:09:51.420 But I had to dial a lot of that back.

00:09:56.620 And and so I think when we are not true to ourselves, when we're not true to our nature, that it's something called I like to say it's emotional dissonance.

00:10:07.340 And it takes right.

00:10:09.700 It takes a lot of calories.

00:10:11.120 I started looking at myself as that.

00:10:13.020 I realized that I can't be the the barrel chested freedom fighter that I that I wanted to set up for or that I signed up for in this in this particular setting.

00:10:25.020 Um, so it's really it's when you when you're looking in the inside these organizations and, you know, wanting to do the job, it's I wanted to do the job at the expense of being true to myself.

00:10:40.880 Yeah, yeah, man.

00:10:42.700 I'm I'm taking so many notes.

00:10:44.420 You probably see me punching away at my keyboard here because I'm taking a bunch of notes.

00:10:48.240 Uh, you talked about arrogance hurting you, but also from where I sit, there's got to be some level.

00:10:55.280 I don't know.

00:10:56.080 I don't know if I want to call it arrogance or ego or just a healthy sense of of confidence, but there's got to be some level, especially in your line of work.

00:11:04.240 And we're going to get into that in a minute because I think we jumped the gun a little bit.

00:11:06.520 I did anyways, because I was excited about this conversation.

00:11:09.740 There has to be some level of I'll I'll say for the sake of argument, belief in yourself.

00:11:18.440 And I think that's a spectrum.

00:11:20.360 We have humility or I would say self deprecation on one side of the equation.

00:11:25.880 And then on the other side, we have extreme arrogance and there has to be a level of humility, but there also has to be some confidence.

00:11:34.240 Cause you can't step into the environments in the world you're operating in while you're feeling crappy about yourself or self deprecation or some of that humor.

00:11:43.880 Like you actually have to have some belief in yourself.

00:11:46.980 I imagine that is, Oh, 100%.

00:11:50.880 And, and the proof is in the pudding.

00:11:52.760 You know, I look, I look back to just, just my journey as a man, right?

00:11:58.580 I started off in, in boy Scouts or playing ice hockey, boy Scouts, doing hard things at, at a very young age.

00:12:06.280 I go up to the white mountains and, you know, get a brush with death and, uh, at like 12, 13, 14.

00:12:12.620 And, um, and it was funny cause a lot of the hardest things that I have done and have endured in my military career, I always looked back at these, these elements when I thought I wasn't going to make it as a 12, 13, 14 year old boy messing around in the white mountains in New Hampshire.

00:12:33.040 And, and, and so it's experience builds up confidence, but you have to have the self-awareness about yourself that when you're stepping into something new that you may not be, um, you know, the, the expert yet.

00:12:48.420 And so it's, it's really having to take a step back and let other people lead or, or admit to, to follow other people or seek out coaches.

00:12:58.820 I think probably I I'll, I'll say this is that, uh, in my deployment to Iraq during that timeframe, uh, the guy I replaced good dude, a lot of experience, but did it wasn't that forward leaning or that confidence.

00:13:18.060 So when you're around a bunch of other special forces types, uh, hardened, hardened dudes, uh, all to all with multiple combat deployments, we value that assertiveness, you know, because we sense that assertiveness.

00:13:32.520 Cause if you're not going to be that way, uh, you're going to come off as weak and, and we're not in these communities is, you know, when you're doing stuff that, that the president deems, some of the stuff I worked on, uh, there was an article.

00:13:46.560 General McKenzie just came out with in the Atlantic last week, talking about how he sanctioned the, the strike on Qasem Soleimani.

00:13:53.660 And, uh, for those, uh, order of man listeners out there, uh, I am one of the dudes that helped make that strike happen.

00:14:01.320 And when you're doing stuff at that level where the president of the United States has visibility on it and everyone in that food chain, um, there isn't time for feelings or emotions.

00:14:09.900 And, uh, we just had to put it together, you know, set, set all that aside and, uh, make mission.

00:14:17.200 Yeah.

00:14:17.580 We're going to talk about Soleimani.

00:14:19.200 We're also going to talk about al-Baghdadi.

00:14:20.860 Like we're going to talk about some of these things and, and I've got about, I don't know, 27 different questions I've typed up as you've been talking right here.

00:14:27.760 So I do want to back up though.

00:14:29.980 I want to hit pause on the conversation we're having right now.

00:14:33.520 What is a spy?

00:14:35.280 All right.

00:14:35.600 Cause like most of us, we, we see James Bond and we see these types of things and we think, oh, there's a spy.

00:14:41.040 Uh, Nathan Hale, I think is regarded as the America's first spy.

00:14:45.840 I would say based on what I've read about early, you know, American history, but what, what actually is a spy?

00:14:52.800 Is there a definition for it?

00:14:55.960 Well, really, I'd say probably the common, the common understanding that we have, you know, we, we look at Hollywood and everything else.

00:15:02.580 There's a lot of different intelligence disciplines within the intelligence community.

00:15:08.140 You have the national security agency, which specializes in, specializes, specializes in signals intelligence.

00:15:15.520 And they're, that's an entire agency of spies that specialize in technical data, et cetera.

00:15:23.560 Um, and then you have CIA, which is more of the common, what we imagine what spies are.

00:15:29.020 And that is human intelligence and human intelligence is going out and recruiting assets.

00:15:35.160 This is being out in the field, I imagine.

00:15:38.340 Yes.

00:15:39.200 Yes.

00:15:39.540 So my technical title is I was a field case officer.

00:15:43.120 A case officer is someone that spots and assess, spots, assess, and recruits, uh, clandestine agents, um, for the good of America.

00:15:54.620 You're, you're, you're being, you're being a little bit, uh, uh, and, and I understand.

00:15:59.480 So what you're telling me, if you can answer this is that you are a field case officer with the CIA.

00:16:04.560 That's what I'm hearing you say.

00:16:06.580 No, no, I can't, uh, I can't give you my, any affiliation that I was with an agency, but yeah, I was a field case officer.

00:16:13.120 Got it.

00:16:13.740 Fair enough.

00:16:14.360 And, and I can respect and appreciate that.

00:16:16.940 Uh, I, I think, you know, some of the concerns that some of us have is not concerns necessarily, but there is this, this layer of, of secrecy and protectiveness around it.

00:16:29.780 And I understand the sensitive nature of the information that we're dealing in, but it makes, I think a lot of people wonder, is this in our benefit?

00:16:37.640 And I think it is, but also to our detriment and where's the line, you know what I mean?

00:16:43.480 Absolutely.

00:16:43.880 So I love this conversation cause I, I have a feeling of where it's going to go because I have some pretty strong opinions, you know, in my, and I think, uh, ultimately is that with all the secrecy around it, it's, it's, it's needed.

00:16:57.740 It's not like anyone's just going out there and doing this job, Ryan, you know, um, I think about how much, I don't even know what the vetting process was for even me when I got recruited, um, and, and crossed over from, you know, took off my green beret and became a spy in 2018.

00:17:13.520 And, you know, I was officially out of the government and military, uh, as of last year, um, but, uh, you have people that are out there far in front of this, uh, tip of the spear, uh, trying to collect information to give us an edge, to give decision makers an edge.

00:17:33.700 And what we have in having ran in certain circles in the intelligence community is what the number one problem that we're facing as a nation right now is disinformation.

00:17:46.320 And we're, we're trying to cast stones, this disinformation is trying to cast stones at our intelligence agencies, assuming that we're doing all sorts of nefarious stuff.

00:17:59.660 And, and, and, and not really advancing our national interests.

00:18:04.360 And that, that couldn't be any more farther from the truth.

00:18:07.920 Um, we're constantly out there trying to find, trying to get a, trying to get an edge anywhere we can on our adversaries.

00:18:15.720 It's just, I think after years of fighting counter-terrorism and doing counter-terrorism intelligence operations, which for those that are listening, who are not familiar with that in the world of counter-terrorism,

00:18:28.420 you have to move fast, you got to move fast.

00:18:31.680 These guys, these terrorists, they're not going to be in one place for very long.

00:18:36.440 And so when you have a bed down location on a dude who's pretty bad, like, so what we call that's called getting a fix, then we have to, we have to finish them, you know, with the, with the opportunity we have.

00:18:48.960 And, and the, that brings up another topic is just even in that, it's not that simple.

00:18:55.360 Um, there's, there's a lot of very strict, uh, legal review of everything that happens on everything that we do.

00:19:03.820 So, uh, yeah, there is a, there is a lot of bureaucracy with it, but with, um, uh, executive order one, two, triple three, and there's all these legal reviews that happen over, uh, clandestine operations to ensure that, uh, we're staying within our legal left and right limits.

00:19:24.900 And, and, um, you know, personally, I joke in the book and the acknowledgements of the book to, this is just kind of an inside joke to some of my friends that are still in the community is that I would joke about, yeah, someday I'm going to be director of national intelligence.

00:19:39.020 Right. And, um, and, um, and more, more over on that is, is I view that if anything that we have now is we have so many roadblocks in place that it makes it difficult for the intelligence, intelligence operative to really push ahead.

00:19:53.900 And I think that we're, we're due for another Patriot act.

00:20:00.200 Honestly, that's, that's.

00:20:02.380 It's funny that you talk, cause I wrote that down about 10 seconds ago, Patriot act.

00:20:06.240 And if you ask the common American citizen, like myself, I try to be rational.

00:20:12.820 I try to be level-headed.

00:20:14.780 I try to see as much of the equation as I possibly can.

00:20:17.860 I don't have all the facts and data in front of me.

00:20:19.500 So I make my decisions based on what's in front of me.

00:20:22.600 And I think there's a lot of reasons why something like the Patriot act makes sense.

00:20:27.100 And I also deeply questioned and am concerned about the ramifications of something like the Patriot act when it comes to my own personal interactions, my own business.

00:20:41.100 Because, you know, early, I'll say this early in 2020, I was approached by the FBI and they came to my house.

00:20:53.760 They left a card on in the, in the door.

00:20:58.760 I was out of town.

00:21:00.100 My then wife saw, she was concerned as, as I, as I was, I responded back.

00:21:06.220 It was a gross overreach and I don't, I don't have to get into all the details right now, but it was, it was a complete overreach of my personal privacy.

00:21:16.280 And those agents knew information about me that is not publicly and readily available.

00:21:25.740 And they were questioning my organization.

00:21:28.740 And I get fucking furious when situations like that happen, when I know there's real evil in the world taking place. 0.94

00:21:37.620 And you're questioning me about teaching men how to live more righteously, how to serve our families, how to lead in your communities, how to coach your son's t-ball team. 0.98

00:21:50.020 And you're coming after me and scaring my wife and my kids.

00:21:54.500 I got a problem with that, man.

00:21:56.100 And I, and I know I'm getting fired up.

00:21:57.680 It's not directed at you at all, but I think this is probably pretty indicative of the average American citizen.

00:22:04.700 I think, um, so I think you were probably wrapped up in probably the same thing.

00:22:11.660 There was a SF guy, uh, Mike, he runs a survival podcast, um, teaches survival and things and stuff like that.

00:22:21.200 And, and, and, uh, field, field craft survival, field craft survival.

00:22:24.940 Yeah.

00:22:25.100 So I think that the, the homegrown violent extremism, uh, branch of it's, I mean, that's, it's kind of stretching it.

00:22:37.180 You're, you, you know, I, I kind of understand it's two sides of the coin, right?

00:22:42.000 Is FBI, they, when they, basically the way the FBI works is that you have an analyst, right?

00:22:48.560 And if they have a hunch on something or a special agent has a hunch on something, they write a requirement for it.

00:22:54.360 And then they go out there and they investigate against that requirement.

00:22:57.560 Fair enough.

00:22:57.960 And that they have, they have the legal authority to do that.

00:23:01.140 And they should, they should.

00:23:03.620 Absolutely.

00:23:04.360 And, and honestly, like I have seen, I've worked a lot of FBI special agents and they do some really, really good work, especially going after child trafficking, um, child trafficking, child pornography, violent crime.

00:23:18.540 Some of the stuff that these agencies see in violent crime is, is horrendous.

00:23:23.560 And then the sheer amount of data that the joint terrorism task force forces within the FBI, uh, which is like a clearinghouse for threats against national interests, threats against homeland security, our homeland.

00:23:39.280 Um, it's, it, it's a big enterprise that needs to function.

00:23:44.260 So I'm careful to say that there's, there's obviously going to be some essays out there that are, that it's their job to sniff around in these things.

00:23:53.100 I appall, like, I mean, I can't apologize on behalf that I see that.

00:23:57.020 No, it's not on you at all for sure.

00:23:58.220 Because it's not on me.

00:23:59.520 Right.

00:23:59.860 But, um, it is, it is alarming to me though.

00:24:02.840 It really is alarming to me is that you are right.

00:24:05.600 It's like, you know, at what point are, are we spending our resources in a correct manner or coming after you, uh, coming after Mike.

00:24:15.740 Right.

00:24:16.240 And, and, you know, sniff around, are these people breaking the laws, you know?

00:24:21.860 And it's, you know, what's the, what's the hunch that, that, that led there is the fact that you're trying to empower men, you know?

00:24:28.080 Cause that doesn't look like to me, like a guerrilla force or homegrown violent extremists or, you know, but, uh, who knows, who knows?

00:24:37.940 Yeah.

00:24:38.340 And so I, I think it's really, it's what is, you just got to keep your nose clean, man.

00:24:43.900 And I know it's like, uh, it's like, well, you know, why should I have to worry about someone looking over my back?

00:24:50.960 And, and this is kind of comes full circle is we need to have a lot more focus on, you know, the, the, the, the threats to society, you know, as a, as the things that are going on in this country, we got open borders, who knows where our enemies are doing, you know, being able to operate within, within, within the contingent, contingent United States.

00:25:13.900 So, uh, there's a lot of things that, that, that keep me up at night, um, especially with, uh, the burgeoning tech industry, you know, with the advent of artificial intelligence, which is great.

00:25:26.440 I use AI, I use it every day, but, you know, I, China's probably, China's weaponizing that, that stuff as we speak so they can oppress their citizens more. 0.55

00:25:39.140 Right.

00:25:39.580 And, and, and I almost guarantee it.

00:25:41.980 I mean, that that's, they're doing it as a survival mechanism.

00:25:45.220 Right.

00:25:45.840 And, and so how, how do we prevent those controls from ending up here in the United States?

00:25:51.260 You know, and that's why we have to vote people in that, uh, would prevent that and, and, you know, empower our law enforcement community, our special agents to have impactful, uh, cases, um, without trampling all over our constitutional rights.

00:26:12.500 Man, let me take a step away from the conversation very briefly.

00:26:17.960 Uh, I don't want to talk about this, but I think it's important.

00:26:20.520 We do in the early part of 2023, I finalized my divorce.

00:26:23.880 Now I shied away from talking about this and while I tried to be transparent with everyone who listens, there was a lot of guilt and shame around my own experience and what led to the demise of my 18 year marriage.

00:26:38.360 And while I still have a lot of conflicting feelings about that, I realized through sharing my struggles with others, how important it is that I tell the story and what I've done ultimately to overcome the trials that come with a breakdown and dismantling of a marriage.

00:26:55.120 Uh, that's why I've decided to make some resources available to any man who is currently navigating a new divorce.

00:27:01.200 Uh, I don't have everything together just yet, but I am close to making this something that will benefit any man who finds himself in the situation.

00:27:10.200 So if you want to be the first to be notified of what is available in the next couple of weeks, then head to order of man.com and sign up to get our email newsletter in June.

00:27:22.180 So within the next month or so, I will send you a personal email with a link to the guide that will help you navigate.

00:27:28.520 What might be the most challenging time of your life?

00:27:32.600 I get it.

00:27:33.680 I've been through it.

00:27:34.740 I understand how brutally painful it is.

00:27:36.960 And if I have something to share with you, then I feel like it's my moral obligation to do so.

00:27:41.480 Again, go to order of man.com, sign up for the newsletter, and we will get you the information as soon as possible.

00:27:47.540 Do that right after the conversation for now.

00:27:50.120 Let's get back to it with Dave.

00:27:51.200 I think the question as a concerned citizen is, how do we know?

00:28:00.800 You know, you take the Democratic side of the aisle, you take the Republican side of the aisle, many people, and I would largely agree, this is two sides of the same coin.

00:28:09.120 I have a whole lot of distrust for politicians in general, elected officials, and it's hard for us to know, to determine, to decipher.

00:28:20.140 And also, I think one of the concerns is that there's very little accountability from our perspective.

00:28:26.480 You know, when we talk about these agencies, we talk about the DOJ, we talk about government, we talk about even the military, there's very little accountability to the American citizen who is who these agencies and people are supposed to be serving.

00:28:38.020 And I would love to have some faith and trust, and I do.

00:28:43.360 Of course, I do.

00:28:44.360 I love law enforcement.

00:28:45.960 I was in the military myself.

00:28:47.560 I respect the work that you do because I think you're a good person and you're trying to do right.

00:28:51.760 But there is a lack of accountability from our perspective.

00:28:55.820 What do you have to say about the accountability that's built into it?

00:28:58.560 I feel like as a society, we have just kind of let go of standing up and taking accountability at all, right?

00:29:08.340 We're just constantly ducking it.

00:29:12.560 I'll give you an example, right?

00:29:14.400 This recently, I know you guys like to bring up headlines, and I don't know if you already mentioned this or not, but this is something me and my Green Beret friends talk about.

00:29:24.520 And the Gaza aid strip that they built.

00:29:30.860 The million-dollar, multi-million-dollar – are you talking about the port or whatever, the dock or whatever it was that floated out to sea?

00:29:41.980 Yeah.

00:29:42.400 Yeah, right.

00:29:43.140 Yes.

00:29:43.860 Okay.

00:29:44.340 And so, you know, there's two sides of that coin, right?

00:29:50.700 And this is – they missed – the administration missed a really great opportunity here is they – firstly, it's, hey, we're new at this.

00:30:01.680 You know, talking about at the beginning of this conversation, learning, you know, reaching out, figuring stuff out, you know, growing.

00:30:08.980 How I would have encapsulated that is I would have said, all right, yeah, we spent like – I think it was like $30 million.

00:30:16.160 Yeah, $32 million, I think.

00:30:18.660 But guess what, China?

00:30:20.300 We just got even better at this.

00:30:22.760 And I don't see you out there doing it, but we'll be ready, you know.

00:30:27.560 We'll be ready to employ this in Paycom in some way in the near future.

00:30:31.740 So that was – they missed kind of like a good opportunity to kind of spin it that way.

00:30:37.920 But at the same time, it's like, well, this was a failure.

00:30:40.180 So, you know, who's standing up and who's owning this, right?

00:30:43.500 And just in these small examples, I saw – I would say probably – I look at my book, right, for example.

00:30:56.280 There was an individual.

00:30:58.320 His name in the book is Jake, and he died by suicide around middle – early June 2019.

00:31:06.620 This individual died by suicide, and it rocked the whole unit.

00:31:12.840 It rocked the whole unit.

00:31:15.100 And I – you know, not – and granted, like we have a habit of like when someone dies by suicide that, you know, it was their decision.

00:31:24.020 It was their decision.

00:31:24.920 But no one wants to look at the underlying factors of what was going on in that individual's life, right?

00:31:31.260 And there was some certain factors that pressures put on him, I think, unnecessarily by the chain of command.

00:31:41.600 And I am not putting the onus on them or anything like that.

00:31:46.060 But these are the things that we don't take into consideration when we're making decisions for people.

00:31:54.360 And I think in terms of like having accountability, you know, a good dude died on your watch.

00:32:03.480 You know, what were the decisions that you made to best take care of that individual?

00:32:08.320 You know, and was it really in this calculus, in this abacus that you're looking at, was – did you really do everything that was necessary?

00:32:16.700 And, you know, for a lot of us that we go our whole lives, like me, I always wanted to be a spy when I was younger.

00:32:25.500 I grew – you know, you watch the James Bond movies.

00:32:27.500 I read a ton of Le Carre.

00:32:30.880 Well, not so much I always wanted to be a spy, but it just kind of like evolved into that.

00:32:35.660 And I look at him or, you know, I look at that.

00:32:38.500 It's like this dude was having a mental health problem and they took the one last thing away from him and that was his mission.

00:32:44.720 And they took it away from him and they benched him.

00:32:50.240 And so that like, you know, the second, third order effects of that, if anyone else struggled with mental health, they were like, no.

00:32:55.820 But come back full circle.

00:32:58.740 It's like where was the accountability of that?

00:33:01.320 It's an easy scapegoat to say that, oh, well, he had a lot of TVIs.

00:33:05.720 And I was like, I don't – in my personal opinion is that I think there was a lot more going on with him that we're not readily able to admit.

00:33:14.720 Okay, so yes, I can see that.

00:33:20.780 But also, again, it's hard for us to know.

00:33:23.500 Like when we see situations like this, there's just such a level of distrust.

00:33:27.900 And I'm wondering how we bridge the gap between our agencies and our citizens.

00:33:35.780 And I think a lot of this is being misused.

00:33:39.800 I think there's a term that I've heard recently is lawfare.

00:33:43.120 You know, especially as we're recording this, Trump was just charged with 32, 32 or 34 felony counts of campaign violations and things like this, campaign financing violations.

00:33:57.420 And I think there's just a whole lot of mistrust.

00:34:00.600 And I'm wondering how we bridge the gap between our three-letter agencies, our law enforcement officials, and the common man.

00:34:07.920 It's a very tough and delicate dance, Ryan, because you have so many things that are compartmentalized and they're compartmentalized for a reason, to protect the means and methods of how the information is collected and how it is disseminated.

00:34:27.700 So I – obviously, when you're doing covert and clandestine operations, you really can't – you can't celebrate your wins publicly.

00:34:38.140 That wouldn't be too smart, right?

00:34:42.140 Right.

00:34:42.320 Unless it's like a kinetic strike, something like Soleimani or Baghdadi that is a big statement piece.

00:34:49.080 But in what we like to call the great power competition with China and Russia, right, and these – the wins to be able to demonstrate and to say that, all right, well, FBI as an organization stopped X amount of terrorists crossing the border or have rolled up.

00:35:13.120 I think it was like last month, like 40-something of people on their watch list.

00:35:18.560 I mean, fact check me, but like that they've identified that have entered the U.S.

00:35:22.740 So it's scary to think about, but to me, it's – the underlying factor is to show how mean our intelligence machine is, is that, well, hey, we know where they are.

00:35:34.960 We know they're crossing the border.

00:35:36.880 You know, probably a good indication of, you know, we might know where they're at.

00:35:40.620 But, you know, to your point, it's like how do we build trust?

00:35:43.860 How do we build trust in these institutions when our – when we see in the open news, like you said, is lawfare is going on?

00:35:54.220 You know, to my knowledge, like I don't know yet, you know.

00:35:58.080 I don't know how we do that because it's – you know, to build trust, we've got to show wins.

00:36:04.000 How do we show wins, right?

00:36:05.560 If I was the FBI, for instance, and you have bad guys in our border, let's roll them up, you know, roll them up.

00:36:15.580 And I don't know if, you know, they're probably got eyes on a lot of these guys.

00:36:21.240 I know that the JTTF does an amazing job.

00:36:25.420 A lot of the – you know, there's stuff going on overseas that we're getting information on here in the United States.

00:36:33.320 And that's one big thing the FBI does is they even make stuff happen overseas.

00:36:38.620 So – but those wins never make it into the New York Times.

00:36:43.700 So it's very difficult that a lot of the stuff that does happen, a lot of the big wins that does occur happens below such a threshold.

00:36:54.340 Because, you know, bad news sells, bad news sells and, you know, holding people accountable, you know, to their actions and holding – you know, this is all we're seeing now.

00:37:05.880 And, you know, for the sake of clicks, there's always a hook, you know, with everything that's going on in the media and in the news.

00:37:15.000 And personally, I think that a lot of what we're seeing and what we're reading in the mainstream media is being conflagrated by our enemies through, you know, odd farms and, you know, soon-to-be AI and who knows what the future holds for that.

00:37:35.340 It's a very tricky thing as – because here I am, Ryan, I'm saying you can trust us, right?

00:37:42.200 And you can, you know, guys like me.

00:37:45.240 I mean I signed up.

00:37:46.600 I signed up for the right reasons.

00:37:48.620 I would die 10 times over for this country.

00:37:53.300 No doubt, right?

00:37:55.740 And we're always going to try to do the right thing.

00:37:59.060 But it's – we're competing with an enemy who doesn't play by any rules.

00:38:04.240 And that's kind of like – kind of bring back to, you know, sort of a second Patriot Act is, well, how do we shut this down?

00:38:10.840 And I know that tech, big tech like Meta and Instagram, for instance, they do a really good job of trying to shut a lot of that stuff down that is – you know, trying to shut down the misinformation.

00:38:26.360 But then it's like the flip side is like, well, it's freedom of speech.

00:38:29.980 You know, you had other people believing in it.

00:38:32.300 And I would probably say that we just need a better educated populace.

00:38:39.900 And, you know, those – I don't have my phone in front of me, but these little machines, they're dangerous.

00:38:45.080 And you can't believe everything you see.

00:38:47.180 Oh, of course.

00:38:48.200 Yeah, I think it's important to be vigilant about that sort of thing.

00:38:50.980 You know, I do want to go into what you had talked about with al-Baghdadi, leader of ISIS.

00:38:56.460 Obviously, Trump was very vocal when he was – I was going to say killed, but if I remember correctly, he killed himself.

00:39:02.160 I think he blew himself up.

00:39:04.160 And the line is, you know, he died – what did he say?

00:39:08.100 He either died like a dog or the dogs were chasing him down when he died.

00:39:12.080 It was very hilarious.

00:39:13.100 He died like a dog.

00:39:14.160 Yeah, very hilarious in true Trump fashion.

00:39:16.840 And I think there's a lot of power in that too.

00:39:20.500 And then Soleimani, I believe, was a drone strike if I remember correctly, maybe in 2020.

00:39:27.840 What was your level of involvement with each of – would you call them – Soleimani, I think, is largely classified as an assassination.

00:39:35.240 Would you call it that or would you call it something else?

00:39:37.320 And then what was your level of involvement in these two more high-profile cases?

00:39:43.460 Absolutely.

00:39:44.060 Like love to articulate.

00:39:45.140 Obviously, there's – I'm going to stick to what's in the book, so I'm very limited in terms of what I can say about those things.

00:39:51.820 It's probably been reviewed by the DOJ and redactions have taken place and there's all sorts of iterations with your book, I imagine.

00:39:58.400 Is that accurate?

00:40:00.660 Yeah.

00:40:01.160 My book went through government pre-publication.

00:40:04.240 Right.

00:40:04.820 So I'll stick to the script.

00:40:07.220 You know what I'm saying?

00:40:08.000 Fair enough.

00:40:08.680 Fair enough.

00:40:09.160 But I would say I had a very small role in Baghdadi, very small role.

00:40:15.440 All the credit goes to the guys that did the raid and the people that found him.

00:40:19.940 And those – like especially the people that found him, I think that that is worthy of book of it itself.

00:40:25.600 And obviously, I can't talk about that.

00:40:27.760 But yeah, he did go down.

00:40:29.840 He did clack off suicide vests in a tunnel and that dog – the dog that was chasing him down was injured.

00:40:37.400 It was a beautifully executed raid by some very, very hardened professionals in the middle of the night.

00:40:47.360 And a lot of that kind of happened.

00:40:51.160 It was a very crazy time because we pulled out of Syria and then Turkey invaded northern Syria.

00:40:58.020 So it was a very complicated timeframe in that you have – for maneuvers and fire and everything else, it's – I can imagine that the joint chiefs and SECDEF and the CENTCOM commander at the time, McKenzie, were pretty nervous of how it went down.

00:41:15.120 But it was beautifully executed.

00:41:16.140 So he died in a compound in Idlib in Syria and that's kind of how it went.

00:41:26.220 And for that, it probably set ISIS back.

00:41:30.200 I was there for – I basically showed up, did a tiny bit of work on it and then we're trying to get the number two guy while I was there too in some clever ways.

00:41:41.120 And then they ended up bagging the number two guy I think I want to say in 21, I think, or maybe early 22.

00:41:48.560 But the guy had to go. 0.95

00:41:51.280 ISIS is a very – and this is – regardless of what side of the aisle you're on politically, it's – these guys are terrorists. 0.96

00:41:59.440 Of course. 1.00

00:41:59.820 They're thugs with guns. 0.99

00:42:02.280 It's the same thing with Hamas. 0.98

00:42:03.440 You can do the free Palestine and the Israeli stuff. 0.99

00:42:07.660 Like we know Hamas is – they're terrorists. 0.94

00:42:10.480 We know that clearly, obviously.

00:42:12.540 So we can have other conversations, but let's call a spade a spade.

00:42:16.960 Yep.

00:42:17.800 And these guys, they have to go.

00:42:20.540 You can't let them fester.

00:42:22.380 The longer you let them fester, the more their movement grows.

00:42:25.440 If we didn't move in and do what we did in 2014 to address that issue, who knows how big the caliphate would have became.

00:42:35.220 And on top of that, they're facilitating terror networks everywhere else in the world.

00:42:40.340 I – majority of my – well, not a majority, but when I was a Green Beret in Southeast Asia, I spent a lot of time in the Philippines.

00:42:46.880 And the facilitation of money, guns, men, right?

00:42:56.840 There was a point in the war during Operation Inherent Resolve where ISIS was telling people to go to the Philippines because we were kicking the crap out of them.

00:43:07.260 And I was over there in Southeast Asia at that time and we were seeing an influx of foreign fighters to various countries there.

00:43:16.960 And that's very dangerous and they're going to destabilize the security and economy of the countries that they go to based on – I mean what it is is you talk about what order of man stands for.

00:43:32.520 These guys didn't grow up with men around them.

00:43:35.260 They really didn't.

00:43:35.960 But I mean if you think about it, they're just like any gang member in the street right now.

00:43:42.860 That's kind of how I look at it.

00:43:45.060 And the one thing that they saw, the strong thing that they saw in their neighborhoods growing up was a tough guy with an AK-47.

00:43:54.400 But the dangerous thing is that they legitimize it with their religion.

00:43:59.700 And I'm not – this is an extreme version of Islam. 0.97

00:44:04.160 You know, it's not for our brothers, you know, follow Allah, right? 0.99

00:44:10.140 Sunni or Shia in a respectful manner that allows other people to, you know, also practice their religions too.

00:44:16.540 But in these extreme cases, that's how they weaponize it.

00:44:19.880 So to Hamas is – you know, when I saw that happen to Israel, I knew the first thing I said, other than the people that have lost their lives and the horrible things that have happened, that I knew that the average Palestinian was going to stand to lose the most because they can't fight. 0.99

00:44:42.460 You know, it's the same situation. 0.86

00:44:45.500 Hamas are thugs with guns. 0.91

00:44:47.700 And could have Israel handled this a lot better? 0.99

00:44:51.200 Absolutely.

00:44:52.160 You know, they totally – they totally could have handled it a lot better.

00:44:55.740 In what way would you say?

00:44:56.680 I have my own thoughts on that, but I'm not as well-versed as you.

00:44:59.140 But in what way could have Israel handled that better?

00:45:01.840 Or currently?

00:45:02.640 I mean they're still handling it, so.

00:45:04.780 They're still handling it.

00:45:05.860 I mean obviously it's – you know, Hamas has got to go.

00:45:09.420 Hamas, they're operating. 1.00

00:45:11.060 And, you know, I am under the assumption that, you know, they are being helped out by Hezbollah and Iran.

00:45:20.300 And so when I saw that all happen, I just pointed to the map and looked at Tehran and said, really, guys? 0.91

00:45:26.760 Really?

00:45:27.560 And – but so here's the thing is that what do the Palestinians want?

00:45:32.740 And in the spy game – and I'll teach everybody on this podcast something, you know, something that we say.

00:45:40.900 And if you're a businessman, you probably understand this concept very well is what is the PT buff, right? 0.62

00:45:47.260 So put the benefit up front, PT buff methodology. 0.62

00:45:50.940 So what could have Israel PT buffed the average Palestinian with, right? 0.93

00:45:56.800 And here's the thing is that from the Israeli standpoint is they could have set up refugee camps.

00:46:05.420 They could have set up, you know, something so when they did invade that they would have better conditions that they had.

00:46:13.180 But then the flip side is that would have been the media – not saying our media or anything else, but it would have been flipped around like they were in – you know, the Palestinians are in concentration camps, et cetera, right? 0.69

00:46:24.720 And so it's – I mean, honestly, it's – the real thing is like, all right, well, hey, gang, let's move to a two-state solution.

00:46:32.300 Let us take out Hamas and we'll come to a bargaining table. 0.99

00:46:36.380 You know, we'll come to an arrangement.

00:46:37.820 And I think that would have been it or very limited surgical strikes on Hamas targets, which the Israelis are very much capable of. 0.98

00:46:48.300 I mean from where I sit, and I'm not an expert, and I'm not in the arena that you are, so you just tell me if I'm full of crap or not. 0.72

00:46:54.960 But I think Israel should have just ran in there with guns a-blazin' and taken care of this problem in two months. 0.93

00:47:03.360 I think the fact that they're trying to extend this out and do the whole PR circuit about what this looks like is actually creating more harm than good. 0.99

00:47:15.180 Like just go in there and finish shit quickly, effectively, fast. 0.98

00:47:19.600 There is going to be collateral damage. 1.00

00:47:21.080 Of course, that's war.

00:47:22.320 It's painful.

00:47:22.820 But the longer this gets dragged on, the less likely it is that Israel is going to be able to do what they need to do to defend themselves and their way of life because they're losing the PR battle.

00:47:37.140 Absolutely.

00:47:37.580 And this is the – we live in a time of information warfare, information operations, and every decision, every move that you make is under a microscope or how – you have to look at it as playing.

00:47:50.960 We like to joke and say 4D chess, right?

00:47:54.980 You're playing 4D chess, and every move you're making is going to be picked apart.

00:48:01.600 And so if I try to put myself in the shoes of BB Netanyahu, right, and he's probably looking at it, this is a lose-lose situation for me.

00:48:15.720 Of course.

00:48:16.560 Right?

00:48:16.760 And so it's – why not take the hardliner path and deal with it once and for all?

00:48:23.940 And so it's – but then at the same stake, it's really awful and utterly horrifying what's happened to the average Palestinian over there.

00:48:34.320 We've got dead children.

00:48:35.120 We have – but every strike that they do – and having done counterterrorism for a while is that when – and the one thing that we can walk away from the global war on terror and Operation Inherent Resolve, all these learned lessons over fighting for two decades is that when you lose –

00:48:56.300 when you kill a civilian, you have CIVCAS, as we say, civilian casualties, you're going to lose the population.

00:49:04.420 And in special forces, you look at what is the center of gravity, right?

00:49:09.120 You look at – you do center of gravity analysis.

00:49:11.080 So the center of gravity is the population, right?

00:49:14.020 It's a big center of gravity in how they – what motivates them, what's their need.

00:49:20.460 So every time you kill a civilian, you're losing your own legitimacy for the fight and you're losing the support of the population.

00:49:30.200 So it's – we want the – if I was the Israeli government, I would want the Palestinians to reject Hamas.

00:49:37.280 Now, I'm obviously not that well-versed in this stuff.

00:49:42.760 I'm just kind of like a casual observer of a lot of these things.

00:49:47.360 I'm more of going after the IRGC and TPRK and PLA and stuff.

00:49:56.180 But – and obviously ISIS.

00:49:57.880 But – so I am speaking a little bit outside my – the court and when we're talking about Hamas and all the – and the Palestinians and the Israelis.

00:50:08.800 So it's – but it's extremely complicated.

00:50:12.180 It's a very complicated thing and I think a more limited version of what we're seeing would have probably produced more effects.

00:50:18.820 You know, and it comes down to the trust thing.

00:50:24.280 But then again, it's – when they raided that hospital, Hamas was using the entire basement as an operations center. 0.71

00:50:32.200 Exactly.

00:50:33.740 At some point, the Palestinian people are going to have to reject it. 1.00

00:50:38.740 Like that's – like there's no other – there's no other path.

00:50:42.480 Like you've got traitors in your midst, you've got terrorists in your midst, and you're upset that the terrorists in your midst have infiltrated or attacked a neighboring country, a sovereign country, and that sovereign country is working to defend itself.

00:50:59.920 What do you think is going to happen?

00:51:01.940 Of course that's going to happen.

00:51:03.520 Of course.

00:51:04.320 It brings me back to, you know, initially what I said is that the average Palestinian loses the most because they have nowhere to go.

00:51:12.620 They can't trust – they can't trust their leaders that took charge of them, and they can't trust the Israelis because of all the demonstrated attacks against their own people and their friends that die. 0.86

00:51:26.200 So it's almost – it's a very complicated problem, but it's a self-licking ice cream cone where it's – you're going to have the next generation of Hamas fighters are learning to hate Israel, right, right now, and will vow vengeance.

00:51:44.700 And you have people in there, and that's how extremism – extremism begets extremism.

00:51:49.640 And as much as I'd love everyone to come together and, you know, heal, but, you know, these people have things that they want, and they've wanted for years.

00:52:01.860 And just like the Israelis, they have things that they have wanted for years.

00:52:05.180 Two-state solution seems to be the only way they were going to get any sort of lasting peace, I think, in the area.

00:52:12.840 And I know probably a lot of Israelis would disagree with that, and you have tons of concerns on each side.

00:52:22.560 But let's be honest here.

00:52:25.020 We're fighting over sand, fighting over imaginary lines that we built in the sand here.

00:52:31.500 I mean we say that.

00:52:32.900 Like I think that's easy for us to say, and I think that's the arrogance of Westerners.

00:52:38.820 And I'm not putting this on you exclusively.

00:52:41.680 We do it too.

00:52:42.760 You know, I was in Iraq in 2005, 2006.

00:52:45.520 It's easy for us to say, well, just install democracy.

00:52:48.780 Those people don't value the same things we do.

00:52:52.180 They're not right or wrong.

00:52:53.600 It's just a different value system.

00:52:55.740 So when we go in there and say things like, well, just democracy or they're fighting over sand, that's easy for us to say.

00:53:02.460 But the reality is they see it in a – this is holy land, literally divine.

00:53:10.820 And so it's – I think it's easy for us to say that, but the way they see it is completely different.

00:53:19.000 Oh, totally.

00:53:19.880 I mean it's a birthright.

00:53:21.900 It's a birthright that goes back millennia.

00:53:25.540 And so it's – that's why it's not just such an easy solution to it.

00:53:32.660 And each side views each other as the aggressor and it's just complicated because, you know, ultimately what do we want, right?

00:53:43.540 We want prosperity, economic prosperity and security.

00:53:47.440 How do we do that?

00:53:48.240 Well, why don't we focus on the people that are the most threat to that, the ones that are disturbing the peace, which in this case is Hamas? 0.97

00:54:00.340 Yeah.

00:54:01.420 Yeah.

00:54:02.000 I mean it's like we're not going to come up with the answer on an hour-long podcast.

00:54:06.760 This is a battle that has been waging for literally thousands of years.

00:54:12.000 So for us to say, oh, we got the answer.

00:54:14.940 Here it is.

00:54:15.780 ABC is arrogant to say the least.

00:54:20.960 Yeah.

00:54:21.520 And, you know, be completely clear and honest, you know, with you and your audience is that I'm not even the – I'm not the most educated guy.

00:54:28.520 I'm just a dude that's, you know, been in the system for a while, you know, and I pay attention to these things.

00:54:35.480 You know, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

00:54:40.280 I think we should.

00:54:41.240 I think that's the value of discussion like this is I don't have to, even though, you know, you're coming on this podcast and I value what you have to share.

00:54:49.580 I don't have to take it as gospel.

00:54:50.920 Like I want to hear what you have to say.

00:54:52.600 I might agree with it.

00:54:53.880 I might not agree with some of it.

00:54:55.780 But isn't that the point of dialogue to actually have discourse and to be able to decipher and discern and navigate these complex issues?

00:55:03.920 This is the value of what we're doing here.

00:55:06.800 Absolutely.

00:55:07.520 And that's the beauty of freedom of speech, man.

00:55:09.860 And having the country that we have and fought for and built and the things that we developed.

00:55:16.780 This is this is what it's all about.

00:55:19.720 That's why I fight.

00:55:20.560 That's why you fought or I fought to I'm not fighting anymore.

00:55:24.620 You know, you're done.

00:55:26.240 You're retired.

00:55:27.120 Are you completely done with the military and with any government type agencies that you've worked with in the past?

00:55:34.040 Is that a is that a chapter that's been closed now?

00:55:36.540 Yeah, that chapter has been closed for for quite some time coming up on a year pretty soon.

00:55:43.700 You know, I got out.

00:55:45.800 I published a book.

00:55:46.580 And, you know, the whole, you know, what I see now, you know, for me is we're dealing with veteran suicide.

00:55:57.500 Alarming rates were anywhere from 20 to 22 a day.

00:56:01.120 And it's it's utterly astounding.

00:56:05.120 And I in my career, you know, we've gotten so good at fighting war.

00:56:10.460 You know, you were in Iraq and oh, five, oh, six.

00:56:13.940 Right.

00:56:14.340 Correct.

00:56:14.740 That's what you said.

00:56:15.360 Right.

00:56:15.900 Yeah.

00:56:16.200 So, I mean, back then we were losing more dudes to combat than we are a suicide.

00:56:21.840 Yeah.

00:56:22.300 Now we're losing.

00:56:24.740 Where were you?

00:56:25.960 Were you in Ramadi?

00:56:27.040 Ramadi.

00:56:28.540 OK.

00:56:29.260 Yeah.

00:56:29.460 I have some friends that that experience and Ramadi is some nasty fighting back then.

00:56:33.880 So mad respect to you, Ryan.

00:56:35.900 Not to me.

00:56:36.880 I don't want to take any credit.

00:56:38.040 Not to me.

00:56:38.780 I saw people, men and women do significantly more challenging, more demanding things than I ever did.

00:56:47.180 I never even want to, like, pretend like I'm in the same realm as what some of these soldiers and Marines and warriors in general did for us.

00:56:55.460 I will never take credit the way those guys deserve it.

00:57:00.080 And but I appreciate that, you know, and it's when you're working together as a team, it's everybody shares shares a burden.

00:57:10.240 You know, I just look at, you know, everything I've done.

00:57:13.000 Um, even even Soleimani, it was you had some of the most highly trained special forces guys the military has ever produced come together to, you know, make that happen.

00:57:26.200 Um, and and and that's that's really what it's all about.

00:57:29.820 Um, sharing, sharing the, uh, the burden.

00:57:35.240 Yeah.

00:57:36.180 Yeah, definitely.

00:57:36.740 The weight of this, this nation's defense, you know, it, it, it will crush you, you know?

00:57:44.000 Yeah.

00:57:45.020 Yeah, definitely.

00:57:46.580 Well, so my question is, you know, where two things, where do you go from here knowing all that, you know, and having this history and this, this incredible experience as a Green Beret, as an American spy, where do you take it from here?

00:58:01.140 And then what does the man who's listening do with this information and how does not only he live his life, but how does he ensure that, you know, we're continuing this way of life for our posterity, you know, posterity, our children, our grandchildren, et cetera, et cetera.

00:58:16.300 Uh, absolutely.

00:58:18.660 And so I think probably the most important thing that when you read the book, you sit down and read Into the Darkness, A Journey of Love, War and Emotional Freedom book I wrote. 1.00

00:58:27.220 But, um, I want you and everyone on this, this podcast is listening, listening to this is to own your shit, own your shit, right? 0.99

00:58:36.480 Whatever that may be. 0.99

00:58:37.600 Like, my journey, I went for years just pushing all that stuff down until it became too much.

00:58:47.980 And when I actually did, when I physically talked, physically externalized all those thoughts I was having, things started getting better for me.

00:59:00.300 And whatever you're going through trouble, I want you to just sit back and ask yourself why.

00:59:08.220 Why yourself to death?

00:59:09.700 You know, as a, as a spy, your most important interrogative that you have to ask questions to your assets is why.

00:59:17.760 And I sat there and after I got back from Iraq and I sat in that cold English basement apartment by myself during the early days of COVID, like everybody else was. 0.98

00:59:30.080 And I said, you know what, now it's time to really unpack our shit, Dave. 0.98

00:59:33.980 And I sat there and I wide myself to death. 0.99

00:59:36.320 Why did I feel this way?

00:59:38.120 Why did I allow other people to treat me that way?

00:59:40.740 You know, early on in the conversation, we talked about emotional dissonance, right?

00:59:44.180 How did I go from an Eagle Scout, a Norwich grad, so Norwich University is a military college in Vermont that prides itself on its attrition, not so much as its acceptance rate, and so into a Green Beret to a spy, right?

01:00:03.120 How did I go from doing all these successful things in my life to being this broken individual who hated himself?

01:00:11.360 You know, the ugly internal dialogue, Ryan, that was going on inside me.

01:00:17.420 I was, you know, I hated myself.

01:00:19.220 How did I allow other people to, to, how did I allow other people to treat me that way?

01:00:24.840 And I, I, there's no aha moment, gents, gents, there's no aha moment when you're trying to better yourself and be a better man.

01:00:33.000 On my healing journey, and healing never ends.

01:00:35.140 You got to constantly, if you're a growth mindset person, you have to put in the work.

01:00:39.700 You got to put in the work and you got to put in the work every day.

01:00:42.880 But what you can do to develop the self-awareness that I have is you ask yourself why.

01:00:50.060 You ask yourself why about, why am I angry today?

01:00:53.140 You know, what is it about, what is it about, instead of just going about and letting your emotions run unchecked and, and, and influence your decision-making, let's bring it back.

01:01:03.800 You know, let's, let's, let's look internally into, into asking these questions.

01:01:08.340 And the, the thing that, you know, what got me out of the dark, I, so once you get out of the darkness, you never go back, right?

01:01:17.100 You never go back.

01:01:18.120 That, that battle with suicide that I had, that I struggled with every day and fought every day.

01:01:24.400 I, I sat there in my apartment and I just whied myself to death.

01:01:28.360 And I realized that I tied my self-worth to what other people thought of me.

01:01:35.680 And, and it's like, how did I, how did I get there?

01:01:40.080 And then I said, why did I, you know, why did I get here?

01:01:42.740 You know, why or how did I get here?

01:01:44.200 So, and unpacking that and, you know, at the time I didn't, I didn't really, it's like, well, Dave, why didn't you, why didn't you go to mental health?

01:01:54.280 Why didn't you go to mental health?

01:01:55.300 Why didn't you seek, seek professional help?

01:01:57.060 Because the only thing I had left, Ryan, was my mission as a spy.

01:02:01.720 And I didn't want them to take that away from me.

01:02:04.200 I saw what happened to Jake.

01:02:05.900 I saw Jake, he got benched for, you know, taking a time, taking a knee for mental health.

01:02:11.420 And, you know, that was the last thing I wanted to happen to me.

01:02:14.720 So I, I said, no way.

01:02:16.300 I'm not, I'm not definitely gonna, you know, I'm not gonna let them take the last thing, you know, that the last thing that I have. 0.75

01:02:26.120 And so I sat there, I worked through all my shit, all those ugly conversations, you know, looking back at moments in my life where I wish I was more assertive or I wish I said this.

01:02:39.520 And, and, and looking in just realizing it. 0.98

01:02:43.980 And I had a calendar, I had a calendar that during that timeframe that I literally would do a mental after action review every day.

01:02:56.040 So after action review in the military, Marine Corps, I think calls it the same thing, right?

01:03:01.340 So after you do an operation, you come back and you say, uh, all right, Hey, these are the sustains.

01:03:08.240 This is what we can improve on.

01:03:09.620 So every day I look at my calendar and I say, did I feel like taking my life today?

01:03:16.220 Right.

01:03:16.620 And for a while there was a lot of red X's in that calendar and you know, that, that fueled my defiance and you know, I'll talk another, I'd like you to write down a thing about therapy that I learned recently that I'd like to share with your audience too, but that fueled my defiance.

01:03:35.800 So I woke up the next day and I was like, all right, what are we, what are we doing in a day?

01:03:40.080 So we don't feel that way.

01:03:41.180 And eventually I got to a point where I had no days marked, you know, I get like two days a week, right?

01:03:47.820 And feel that way.

01:03:48.700 Then it'd be three, then it'd be four.

01:03:50.980 And I'm journaling my progression out of it.

01:03:53.960 And then eventually I forgot to even mark the calendar anymore.

01:03:59.580 And, and, and that, and, and, um, and that was like kind of a very powerful step for me, but I kept, you know, during this timeframe of my struggle, I'd say my discipline saved me too, because I, I love going to the gym.

01:04:13.660 I do a lot of CrossFit.

01:04:14.860 I'm an avid CrossFit athlete.

01:04:16.540 Um, I made the quarterfinals this year.

01:04:18.960 Uh, first quarterfinals.

01:04:20.520 Yeah, well done.

01:04:21.100 Thanks.

01:04:21.360 I was, uh, 90, 90, I was in the 91st percentile for my age group.

01:04:25.880 And I was like, sweet.

01:04:26.840 We'll take it.

01:04:27.560 We'll take whatever.

01:04:28.440 Hey, you got in there, man.

01:04:30.040 Take whatever you can get.

01:04:31.700 Yeah, exactly.

01:04:32.560 I'll take it.

01:04:33.240 And then, uh, and so, uh, you know, I, I get up and I go to, you know, I do at that time in COVID, I was doing a lot of kettlebell work, but I was, I lived, it was about a six mile round trip from my apartment to Lincoln Memorial.

01:04:46.440 And I'd run, I'd go run to Lincoln Memorial every day.

01:04:51.020 Um, I used to run ultras a few years ago.

01:04:54.540 Um, so I still had my, you know, ultra legs, as I like to say.

01:04:58.640 And, uh, you know, I'd sit there on the steps of Lincoln and I would say, dude, where did it all go wrong, man?

01:05:06.360 Right.

01:05:06.800 I'm like, yo, honest Abe, help me out, brother.

01:05:10.360 Right.

01:05:10.640 And I'm sitting there and, and, uh, there's no one on the mall.

01:05:17.440 It's just me.

01:05:18.260 Cause everything's locked down for COVID.

01:05:20.260 And it was a lot of time to, to think about myself, but I was getting those little hits of dopamine, you know?

01:05:26.300 So those little hits of dopamine, um, to, to kind of keep me sane and keep me within the lines and, um, you know, to fight every day.

01:05:35.420 It's awesome, man.

01:05:38.300 Well, I know we didn't get a lot into the book and some of the, um, mental struggle and victory, but I would highly encourage anybody to pick up a copy of the book into the darkness.

01:05:49.360 Because I think more than what we went into today, there's a lot of information about redemption and improvement and getting hold of your life.

01:05:58.740 They tell the guys where to connect with you, where to pick up a copy of the book and where to learn more about what you're up to.

01:06:04.240 Absolutely. Thank you, Ryan. Um, you can pick up a copy of into the darkness on Amazon, go ahead, search into the darkness by Dave fielding.

01:06:12.880 It'll pop right up. Um, and then, uh, if you want to connect with me on Instagram, uh, Dave fielding dot D O L D O L stands for depresso liber, the special forces motto.

01:06:24.160 So that's Dave fielding dot D O L and then, uh, Dave fielding D O L on X as well.

01:06:30.060 Um, hit me up, you know, and if you're a guy struggling, I want to hear from you.

01:06:36.640 Awesome. Thanks brother. Yeah. We'll post everything up. So the guys know where to go, brother. I appreciate you. Appreciate your work and your sacrifice to this country and sharing and imparting some of your wisdom with us today. Thanks, man.

01:06:47.840 Thank you so much, Ryan.

01:06:50.420 Gentlemen, there you go. The conversation with Dave fielding. I, I, uh, got a little heated in this one and I didn't realize that I would, I was taking notes and planning.

01:07:00.040 Depending on the conversation, I didn't know that I would get as heat as I, as I did, but, uh, I was fired up about some things and Dave was gracious enough to spend his time and resources and energy and joining us and imparting some of his wisdom and experience upon us.

01:07:14.800 So I would highly suggest that you pick up a copy of his book into the darkness, a journey of love, war, and emotional freedom, especially if this is something that resonates with you and it should be for all of us.

01:07:25.400 Uh, I would also suggest that you head over to order of man.com and get our email newsletter. So you can, uh, be notified when we come up with our divorce resources and, uh, then check out Montana knife company.com and use the code order of man. Those are your marching orders outside of that.

01:07:45.620 Just leave a rating review. Take a few minutes. If you've found any value in what we do, uh, I don't think it's too much to ask that you just go in and leave a rating and review, uh, let men know what you're listening to take a screenshot, tag me, tag Dave, and, uh, give other men the resources that hopefully are serving you guys.

01:08:03.480 That's all I have for today. We'll be back for our ask me anything tomorrow until then go out there, take action and become a man.

01:08:10.620 You are meant to be.

Order of Man - June 04, 2024

Own Your Shit ｜ DAVE FIELDING

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