When you were a young boy, you had dreams of growing up to be an American hero or a spy like James Bond. But what does that actually mean in real life? And what does it take to get there? My guest today is a man who has done just that. His name is Dave Fielding. He is a former U.S. Green Beret turned spy. And today he shares some of his insight into the world of American intelligence, including what we can do to protect ourselves and maintain our rights.
00:00:00.000If you're like me, when you were a young boy, you had dreams of growing up to be an American hero and or a spy like James Bond.
00:00:08.560But what does that actually mean in real life? And what does it take to get there?
00:00:13.400My guest today is a man who has done just that. His name is Dave Fielding.
00:00:17.540Green Beret turned American spy. And today he shares some of his insight into the world of U.S. intelligence,
00:00:24.700including what we can do to protect ourselves and maintain our rights.
00:00:28.420We talk about how arrogance hurts you, but also how it might be able to help.
00:00:33.880How the common citizen deciphers between false and accurate information.
00:00:38.900The importance of owning your shit, as he likes to say.
00:00:41.640The power of asking yourself why in all things and how self-awareness leads to a fulfilled life.
00:00:49.020You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest.
00:00:51.980Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
00:00:54.660When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time.
00:00:58.060Every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient. Strong.
00:01:04.420This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become.
00:01:08.660At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
00:01:14.020Gentlemen, what is going on today? I am Ryan Michler.
00:01:16.800I'm the host and the founder of this podcast and the movement that is called Order of Man.
00:01:20.760Thank you for being here. Thank you for tuning in.
00:01:23.680If you're a man on the path, and I don't really care where you are on the path.
00:01:27.940Maybe you are at the pinnacle of your achievement up to this point, or maybe you feel like you're failing in every single way.
00:01:35.940As a father, husband, business owner, community leader, it doesn't matter to me.
00:01:39.240What I want to do is give you everything that you need to thrive as a father, husband, business owner, community leader, coach, mentor, friend, etc.
00:01:49.360If you're a man and you want to get better, I want to give you the resources you need.
00:01:53.520And primarily, the way that we do this on this podcast is by interviewing incredible men.
00:01:57.880These are warriors, like I have on today, Dave Fielding, athletes, scholars, New York Times bestselling authors, you name it, entertainers.
00:02:08.300I mean, we've got them all. We've got them all.
00:02:10.380Terry Crews, Tim Tebow, Tim Kennedy, Ben Shapiro, Dave Ramsey, Jocko Willink.
00:02:18.580We've got so many incredible men who have joined the mission to reclaim and restore masculinity.
00:02:24.080Now, I've got a great one lined up for you today.
00:02:25.660I'm going to introduce you to my guest in just a minute.
00:02:27.760Before I do, I want to mention my friends over at Montana Knife Company.
00:02:32.700As of the release of this podcast, I am hunting in Hawaii.
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00:03:20.060All one word, ORDEROFMAN at checkout to save some money.
00:03:32.040He is a former U.S. Army Green Beret turned three-letter agency spy.
00:03:37.080You're going to hear me talk a little bit about that on the podcast today on the conversation.
00:03:40.780But he had a part to play in the events that led to the death of ISIS leader al-Baghdadi and Iranian military commander Soleimani.
00:03:49.380I think you're really going to be interested in these stories.
00:03:52.100He's also the author of Into the Darkness, A Journey of Love, War, and Emotional Freedom.
00:03:57.600And inside his book, he chronicles his time in the military and the U.S. government to protect American freedom.
00:04:04.180He also unpacks his struggles with darkness and depression and suicide and how he has overcome all of it.
00:04:11.340As a Bronze Star recipient, he now takes that knowledge from wartime and brings it to the public and corporations to improve their fitness, nutrition, sleep, and ultimately, this is very, very important, their mental health.
00:04:22.980Guys, enjoy this episode with Dave Fielding.
00:04:26.720Yeah, that's the real challenge is guys like us who are capable and can figure things out.
00:04:33.120The trick is not always having to do it ourselves because we're capable of doing it ourselves.
00:04:38.960But I think a lot of times we short ourselves when there's other professionals out there who could do it a whole lot better than we can.
00:04:47.100I mean, it's men supporting men when you think about it.
00:04:50.580It's the hardest thing that we have is asking for help.
00:04:53.940You know, that's something that we have to learn and do often.
00:04:56.980I think past couple episodes, this is something that you articulate is that we all try to pull each other up, you know, even in the smallest ways, you know, and just admitting to yourself.
00:05:08.980A lot of what I talk about in my book is like finally owning all those internal conversations, as I like to say, owning your shit.
00:05:16.720Right. And and so it's like admitting that, you know what, I don't know anything about this.
00:05:22.420Maybe I should, you know, seek out, seek out somebody that knows what they're doing.
00:05:26.840You know, ask them about it because it's all about growth.
00:05:30.560It's it's weird to me that we we don't do it.
00:05:34.980I'm not I'm not saying everybody else.
00:05:36.540I'm saying, like, I do it, too, but we posture and we pretend that we're better than we really are.
00:05:42.340I understand why we do it, but it's dumb.
00:05:46.520I mean, there's no other way to say it.
00:05:47.760It is truly dumb, especially probably in your line of work where, you know, the consequences, for example, of me deceiving myself are probably not that great in the grand scheme of things.
00:06:01.400Because the consequences of you not doing these things literally spells life and death.
00:06:10.060Well, I actually I would slightly disagree with that in that I think it's important that when you deceive yourself, you're not being true to who you are.
00:06:20.760And it's just as dangerous as it was, you know, for me as a Green Beret turned spy, right, working in this world that deception is the number one, you know, one of our key things that keeps us safe.
00:06:32.620But when looking at us as the individual, as the man, when in in in in what I talk about in my book is what you're seeing is a guy who is believing the deception of everything around him.
00:06:49.320Right. And that I let it take hold in me.
00:07:13.500But I imagine it's very difficult when you live a life of deception.
00:07:17.800And that's what you were doing as a professional, whether it's in as a Green Beret or working for any of the three letter agencies that the U.S. has or or something completely different, even being an actor.
00:07:30.620I wonder how often men like you and and actors on a different scale, how often they buy into their own bullshit with all due respect.
00:07:45.160And it it really I think in order to get at these apexes at the at the U.S. government, whether you go join Special Operations Command, working at a three letter agency, special forces, Navy SEAL or go Ranger Regiment.
00:08:03.060And any of those, as I like to say, the adventure plus package options of life, it's you're going to get to a certain point where, you know, your experiences, they're going to tell you I'm a very competent person and you have to be very, very careful.
00:08:19.680I mean, I see you see arrogance in some of these these circles and you just, you know, in order to really grow, you have to be really mindful of yourself.
00:08:29.140And it's it's more of a it's self-awareness is probably one of the most powerful things that you can develop over just in having like that growth mindset and being able to go out there and try new things.
00:08:43.560And I mean, when I when I went from a green beret to become a spy, I was just like, all right, I'm going to just I think this stuff is cool, dude.
00:08:53.240I'm just going to jump in with two feet and figure it out.
00:08:55.960And and I got a good big old slice of humble pie, you know, because I'm entering into a whole community where they you know, they're all tired of the James Bond movies of SF guys and Navy SEALs coming in and be like, you know, take it indoors and the bravado and everything.
00:09:13.340And and to that to kind of come full circle, what we were talking about at the beginning here is that I had to become someone else.
00:09:56.620And and so I think when we are not true to ourselves, when we're not true to our nature, that it's something called I like to say it's emotional dissonance.
00:10:13.020I realized that I can't be the the barrel chested freedom fighter that I that I wanted to set up for or that I signed up for in this in this particular setting.
00:10:25.020Um, so it's really it's when you when you're looking in the inside these organizations and, you know, wanting to do the job, it's I wanted to do the job at the expense of being true to myself.
00:10:56.080I don't know if I want to call it arrogance or ego or just a healthy sense of of confidence, but there's got to be some level, especially in your line of work.
00:11:04.240And we're going to get into that in a minute because I think we jumped the gun a little bit.
00:11:06.520I did anyways, because I was excited about this conversation.
00:11:09.740There has to be some level of I'll I'll say for the sake of argument, belief in yourself.
00:11:20.360We have humility or I would say self deprecation on one side of the equation.
00:11:25.880And then on the other side, we have extreme arrogance and there has to be a level of humility, but there also has to be some confidence.
00:11:34.240Cause you can't step into the environments in the world you're operating in while you're feeling crappy about yourself or self deprecation or some of that humor.
00:11:43.880Like you actually have to have some belief in yourself.
00:11:52.760You know, I look, I look back to just, just my journey as a man, right?
00:11:58.580I started off in, in boy Scouts or playing ice hockey, boy Scouts, doing hard things at, at a very young age.
00:12:06.280I go up to the white mountains and, you know, get a brush with death and, uh, at like 12, 13, 14.
00:12:12.620And, um, and it was funny cause a lot of the hardest things that I have done and have endured in my military career, I always looked back at these, these elements when I thought I wasn't going to make it as a 12, 13, 14 year old boy messing around in the white mountains in New Hampshire.
00:12:33.040And, and, and so it's experience builds up confidence, but you have to have the self-awareness about yourself that when you're stepping into something new that you may not be, um, you know, the, the expert yet.
00:12:48.420And so it's, it's really having to take a step back and let other people lead or, or admit to, to follow other people or seek out coaches.
00:12:58.820I think probably I I'll, I'll say this is that, uh, in my deployment to Iraq during that timeframe, uh, the guy I replaced good dude, a lot of experience, but did it wasn't that forward leaning or that confidence.
00:13:18.060So when you're around a bunch of other special forces types, uh, hardened, hardened dudes, uh, all to all with multiple combat deployments, we value that assertiveness, you know, because we sense that assertiveness.
00:13:32.520Cause if you're not going to be that way, uh, you're going to come off as weak and, and we're not in these communities is, you know, when you're doing stuff that, that the president deems, some of the stuff I worked on, uh, there was an article.
00:13:46.560General McKenzie just came out with in the Atlantic last week, talking about how he sanctioned the, the strike on Qasem Soleimani.
00:13:53.660And, uh, for those, uh, order of man listeners out there, uh, I am one of the dudes that helped make that strike happen.
00:14:01.320And when you're doing stuff at that level where the president of the United States has visibility on it and everyone in that food chain, um, there isn't time for feelings or emotions.
00:14:09.900And, uh, we just had to put it together, you know, set, set all that aside and, uh, make mission.
00:14:19.200We're also going to talk about al-Baghdadi.
00:14:20.860Like we're going to talk about some of these things and, and I've got about, I don't know, 27 different questions I've typed up as you've been talking right here.
00:16:14.360And, and I can respect and appreciate that.
00:16:16.940Uh, I, I think, you know, some of the concerns that some of us have is not concerns necessarily, but there is this, this layer of, of secrecy and protectiveness around it.
00:16:29.780And I understand the sensitive nature of the information that we're dealing in, but it makes, I think a lot of people wonder, is this in our benefit?
00:16:37.640And I think it is, but also to our detriment and where's the line, you know what I mean?
00:16:43.880So I love this conversation cause I, I have a feeling of where it's going to go because I have some pretty strong opinions, you know, in my, and I think, uh, ultimately is that with all the secrecy around it, it's, it's, it's needed.
00:16:57.740It's not like anyone's just going out there and doing this job, Ryan, you know, um, I think about how much, I don't even know what the vetting process was for even me when I got recruited, um, and, and crossed over from, you know, took off my green beret and became a spy in 2018.
00:17:13.520And, you know, I was officially out of the government and military, uh, as of last year, um, but, uh, you have people that are out there far in front of this, uh, tip of the spear, uh, trying to collect information to give us an edge, to give decision makers an edge.
00:17:33.700And what we have in having ran in certain circles in the intelligence community is what the number one problem that we're facing as a nation right now is disinformation.
00:17:46.320And we're, we're trying to cast stones, this disinformation is trying to cast stones at our intelligence agencies, assuming that we're doing all sorts of nefarious stuff.
00:17:59.660And, and, and, and not really advancing our national interests.
00:18:04.360And that, that couldn't be any more farther from the truth.
00:18:07.920Um, we're constantly out there trying to find, trying to get a, trying to get an edge anywhere we can on our adversaries.
00:18:15.720It's just, I think after years of fighting counter-terrorism and doing counter-terrorism intelligence operations, which for those that are listening, who are not familiar with that in the world of counter-terrorism,
00:18:28.420you have to move fast, you got to move fast.
00:18:31.680These guys, these terrorists, they're not going to be in one place for very long.
00:18:36.440And so when you have a bed down location on a dude who's pretty bad, like, so what we call that's called getting a fix, then we have to, we have to finish them, you know, with the, with the opportunity we have.
00:18:48.960And, and the, that brings up another topic is just even in that, it's not that simple.
00:18:55.360Um, there's, there's a lot of very strict, uh, legal review of everything that happens on everything that we do.
00:19:03.820So, uh, yeah, there is a, there is a lot of bureaucracy with it, but with, um, uh, executive order one, two, triple three, and there's all these legal reviews that happen over, uh, clandestine operations to ensure that, uh, we're staying within our legal left and right limits.
00:19:24.900And, and, um, you know, personally, I joke in the book and the acknowledgements of the book to, this is just kind of an inside joke to some of my friends that are still in the community is that I would joke about, yeah, someday I'm going to be director of national intelligence.
00:19:39.020Right. And, um, and, um, and more, more over on that is, is I view that if anything that we have now is we have so many roadblocks in place that it makes it difficult for the intelligence, intelligence operative to really push ahead.
00:19:53.900And I think that we're, we're due for another Patriot act.
00:20:14.780I try to see as much of the equation as I possibly can.
00:20:17.860I don't have all the facts and data in front of me.
00:20:19.500So I make my decisions based on what's in front of me.
00:20:22.600And I think there's a lot of reasons why something like the Patriot act makes sense.
00:20:27.100And I also deeply questioned and am concerned about the ramifications of something like the Patriot act when it comes to my own personal interactions, my own business.
00:20:41.100Because, you know, early, I'll say this early in 2020, I was approached by the FBI and they came to my house.
00:20:53.760They left a card on in the, in the door.
00:21:00.100My then wife saw, she was concerned as, as I, as I was, I responded back.
00:21:06.220It was a gross overreach and I don't, I don't have to get into all the details right now, but it was, it was a complete overreach of my personal privacy.
00:21:16.280And those agents knew information about me that is not publicly and readily available.
00:21:25.740And they were questioning my organization.
00:21:28.740And I get fucking furious when situations like that happen, when I know there's real evil in the world taking place.
00:21:37.620And you're questioning me about teaching men how to live more righteously, how to serve our families, how to lead in your communities, how to coach your son's t-ball team.
00:21:50.020And you're coming after me and scaring my wife and my kids.
00:23:04.360And, and honestly, like I have seen, I've worked a lot of FBI special agents and they do some really, really good work, especially going after child trafficking, um, child trafficking, child pornography, violent crime.
00:23:18.540Some of the stuff that these agencies see in violent crime is, is horrendous.
00:23:23.560And then the sheer amount of data that the joint terrorism task force forces within the FBI, uh, which is like a clearinghouse for threats against national interests, threats against homeland security, our homeland.
00:23:39.280Um, it's, it, it's a big enterprise that needs to function.
00:23:44.260So I'm careful to say that there's, there's obviously going to be some essays out there that are, that it's their job to sniff around in these things.
00:23:53.100I appall, like, I mean, I can't apologize on behalf that I see that.
00:24:38.340And so I, I think it's really, it's what is, you just got to keep your nose clean, man.
00:24:43.900And I know it's like, uh, it's like, well, you know, why should I have to worry about someone looking over my back?
00:24:50.960And, and this is kind of comes full circle is we need to have a lot more focus on, you know, the, the, the, the threats to society, you know, as a, as the things that are going on in this country, we got open borders, who knows where our enemies are doing, you know, being able to operate within, within, within the contingent, contingent United States.
00:25:13.900So, uh, there's a lot of things that, that, that keep me up at night, um, especially with, uh, the burgeoning tech industry, you know, with the advent of artificial intelligence, which is great.
00:25:26.440I use AI, I use it every day, but, you know, I, China's probably, China's weaponizing that, that stuff as we speak so they can oppress their citizens more.
00:25:45.840And, and so how, how do we prevent those controls from ending up here in the United States?
00:25:51.260You know, and that's why we have to vote people in that, uh, would prevent that and, and, you know, empower our law enforcement community, our special agents to have impactful, uh, cases, um, without trampling all over our constitutional rights.
00:26:12.500Man, let me take a step away from the conversation very briefly.
00:26:17.960Uh, I don't want to talk about this, but I think it's important.
00:26:20.520We do in the early part of 2023, I finalized my divorce.
00:26:23.880Now I shied away from talking about this and while I tried to be transparent with everyone who listens, there was a lot of guilt and shame around my own experience and what led to the demise of my 18 year marriage.
00:26:38.360And while I still have a lot of conflicting feelings about that, I realized through sharing my struggles with others, how important it is that I tell the story and what I've done ultimately to overcome the trials that come with a breakdown and dismantling of a marriage.
00:26:55.120Uh, that's why I've decided to make some resources available to any man who is currently navigating a new divorce.
00:27:01.200Uh, I don't have everything together just yet, but I am close to making this something that will benefit any man who finds himself in the situation.
00:27:10.200So if you want to be the first to be notified of what is available in the next couple of weeks, then head to order of man.com and sign up to get our email newsletter in June.
00:27:22.180So within the next month or so, I will send you a personal email with a link to the guide that will help you navigate.
00:27:28.520What might be the most challenging time of your life?
00:27:51.200I think the question as a concerned citizen is, how do we know?
00:28:00.800You know, you take the Democratic side of the aisle, you take the Republican side of the aisle, many people, and I would largely agree, this is two sides of the same coin.
00:28:09.120I have a whole lot of distrust for politicians in general, elected officials, and it's hard for us to know, to determine, to decipher.
00:28:20.140And also, I think one of the concerns is that there's very little accountability from our perspective.
00:28:26.480You know, when we talk about these agencies, we talk about the DOJ, we talk about government, we talk about even the military, there's very little accountability to the American citizen who is who these agencies and people are supposed to be serving.
00:28:38.020And I would love to have some faith and trust, and I do.
00:29:14.400This recently, I know you guys like to bring up headlines, and I don't know if you already mentioned this or not, but this is something me and my Green Beret friends talk about.
00:29:24.520And the Gaza aid strip that they built.
00:29:30.860The million-dollar, multi-million-dollar – are you talking about the port or whatever, the dock or whatever it was that floated out to sea?
00:29:44.340And so, you know, there's two sides of that coin, right?
00:29:50.700And this is – they missed – the administration missed a really great opportunity here is they – firstly, it's, hey, we're new at this.
00:30:01.680You know, talking about at the beginning of this conversation, learning, you know, reaching out, figuring stuff out, you know, growing.
00:30:08.980How I would have encapsulated that is I would have said, all right, yeah, we spent like – I think it was like $30 million.
00:31:24.920But no one wants to look at the underlying factors of what was going on in that individual's life, right?
00:31:31.260And there was some certain factors that pressures put on him, I think, unnecessarily by the chain of command.
00:31:41.600And I am not putting the onus on them or anything like that.
00:31:46.060But these are the things that we don't take into consideration when we're making decisions for people.
00:31:54.360And I think in terms of like having accountability, you know, a good dude died on your watch.
00:32:03.480You know, what were the decisions that you made to best take care of that individual?
00:32:08.320You know, and was it really in this calculus, in this abacus that you're looking at, was – did you really do everything that was necessary?
00:32:16.700And, you know, for a lot of us that we go our whole lives, like me, I always wanted to be a spy when I was younger.
00:32:25.500I grew – you know, you watch the James Bond movies.
00:32:58.740It's like where was the accountability of that?
00:33:01.320It's an easy scapegoat to say that, oh, well, he had a lot of TVIs.
00:33:05.720And I was like, I don't – in my personal opinion is that I think there was a lot more going on with him that we're not readily able to admit.
00:33:20.780But also, again, it's hard for us to know.
00:33:23.500Like when we see situations like this, there's just such a level of distrust.
00:33:27.900And I'm wondering how we bridge the gap between our agencies and our citizens.
00:33:35.780And I think a lot of this is being misused.
00:33:39.800I think there's a term that I've heard recently is lawfare.
00:33:43.120You know, especially as we're recording this, Trump was just charged with 32, 32 or 34 felony counts of campaign violations and things like this, campaign financing violations.
00:33:57.420And I think there's just a whole lot of mistrust.
00:34:00.600And I'm wondering how we bridge the gap between our three-letter agencies, our law enforcement officials, and the common man.
00:34:07.920It's a very tough and delicate dance, Ryan, because you have so many things that are compartmentalized and they're compartmentalized for a reason, to protect the means and methods of how the information is collected and how it is disseminated.
00:34:27.700So I – obviously, when you're doing covert and clandestine operations, you really can't – you can't celebrate your wins publicly.
00:34:42.320Unless it's like a kinetic strike, something like Soleimani or Baghdadi that is a big statement piece.
00:34:49.080But in what we like to call the great power competition with China and Russia, right, and these – the wins to be able to demonstrate and to say that, all right, well, FBI as an organization stopped X amount of terrorists crossing the border or have rolled up.
00:35:13.120I think it was like last month, like 40-something of people on their watch list.
00:35:18.560I mean, fact check me, but like that they've identified that have entered the U.S.
00:35:22.740So it's scary to think about, but to me, it's – the underlying factor is to show how mean our intelligence machine is, is that, well, hey, we know where they are.
00:36:05.560If I was the FBI, for instance, and you have bad guys in our border, let's roll them up, you know, roll them up.
00:36:15.580And I don't know if, you know, they're probably got eyes on a lot of these guys.
00:36:21.240I know that the JTTF does an amazing job.
00:36:25.420A lot of the – you know, there's stuff going on overseas that we're getting information on here in the United States.
00:36:33.320And that's one big thing the FBI does is they even make stuff happen overseas.
00:36:38.620So – but those wins never make it into the New York Times.
00:36:43.700So it's very difficult that a lot of the stuff that does happen, a lot of the big wins that does occur happens below such a threshold.
00:36:54.340Because, you know, bad news sells, bad news sells and, you know, holding people accountable, you know, to their actions and holding – you know, this is all we're seeing now.
00:37:05.880And, you know, for the sake of clicks, there's always a hook, you know, with everything that's going on in the media and in the news.
00:37:15.000And personally, I think that a lot of what we're seeing and what we're reading in the mainstream media is being conflagrated by our enemies through, you know, odd farms and, you know, soon-to-be AI and who knows what the future holds for that.
00:37:35.340It's a very tricky thing as – because here I am, Ryan, I'm saying you can trust us, right?
00:37:55.740And we're always going to try to do the right thing.
00:37:59.060But it's – we're competing with an enemy who doesn't play by any rules.
00:38:04.240And that's kind of like – kind of bring back to, you know, sort of a second Patriot Act is, well, how do we shut this down?
00:38:10.840And I know that tech, big tech like Meta and Instagram, for instance, they do a really good job of trying to shut a lot of that stuff down that is – you know, trying to shut down the misinformation.
00:38:26.360But then it's like the flip side is like, well, it's freedom of speech.
00:38:29.980You know, you had other people believing in it.
00:38:32.300And I would probably say that we just need a better educated populace.
00:38:39.900And, you know, those – I don't have my phone in front of me, but these little machines, they're dangerous.
00:38:45.080And you can't believe everything you see.
00:40:51.160It was a very crazy time because we pulled out of Syria and then Turkey invaded northern Syria.
00:40:58.020So it was a very complicated timeframe in that you have – for maneuvers and fire and everything else, it's – I can imagine that the joint chiefs and SECDEF and the CENTCOM commander at the time, McKenzie, were pretty nervous of how it went down.
00:41:16.140So he died in a compound in Idlib in Syria and that's kind of how it went.
00:41:26.220And for that, it probably set ISIS back.
00:41:30.200I was there for – I basically showed up, did a tiny bit of work on it and then we're trying to get the number two guy while I was there too in some clever ways.
00:41:41.120And then they ended up bagging the number two guy I think I want to say in 21, I think, or maybe early 22.
00:42:22.380The longer you let them fester, the more their movement grows.
00:42:25.440If we didn't move in and do what we did in 2014 to address that issue, who knows how big the caliphate would have became.
00:42:35.220And on top of that, they're facilitating terror networks everywhere else in the world.
00:42:40.340I – majority of my – well, not a majority, but when I was a Green Beret in Southeast Asia, I spent a lot of time in the Philippines.
00:42:46.880And the facilitation of money, guns, men, right?
00:42:56.840There was a point in the war during Operation Inherent Resolve where ISIS was telling people to go to the Philippines because we were kicking the crap out of them.
00:43:07.260And I was over there in Southeast Asia at that time and we were seeing an influx of foreign fighters to various countries there.
00:43:16.960And that's very dangerous and they're going to destabilize the security and economy of the countries that they go to based on – I mean what it is is you talk about what order of man stands for.
00:43:32.520These guys didn't grow up with men around them.
00:43:45.060And the one thing that they saw, the strong thing that they saw in their neighborhoods growing up was a tough guy with an AK-47.
00:43:54.400But the dangerous thing is that they legitimize it with their religion.
00:43:59.700And I'm not – this is an extreme version of Islam.
00:44:04.160You know, it's not for our brothers, you know, follow Allah, right?
00:44:10.140Sunni or Shia in a respectful manner that allows other people to, you know, also practice their religions too.
00:44:16.540But in these extreme cases, that's how they weaponize it.
00:44:19.880So to Hamas is – you know, when I saw that happen to Israel, I knew the first thing I said, other than the people that have lost their lives and the horrible things that have happened, that I knew that the average Palestinian was going to stand to lose the most because they can't fight.
00:45:27.560And – but so here's the thing is that what do the Palestinians want?
00:45:32.740And in the spy game – and I'll teach everybody on this podcast something, you know, something that we say.
00:45:40.900And if you're a businessman, you probably understand this concept very well is what is the PT buff, right?
00:45:47.260So put the benefit up front, PT buff methodology.
00:45:50.940So what could have Israel PT buffed the average Palestinian with, right?
00:45:56.800And here's the thing is that from the Israeli standpoint is they could have set up refugee camps.
00:46:05.420They could have set up, you know, something so when they did invade that they would have better conditions that they had.
00:46:13.180But then the flip side is that would have been the media – not saying our media or anything else, but it would have been flipped around like they were in – you know, the Palestinians are in concentration camps, et cetera, right?
00:46:24.720And so it's – I mean, honestly, it's – the real thing is like, all right, well, hey, gang, let's move to a two-state solution.
00:46:32.300Let us take out Hamas and we'll come to a bargaining table.
00:46:36.380You know, we'll come to an arrangement.
00:46:37.820And I think that would have been it or very limited surgical strikes on Hamas targets, which the Israelis are very much capable of.
00:46:48.300I mean from where I sit, and I'm not an expert, and I'm not in the arena that you are, so you just tell me if I'm full of crap or not.
00:46:54.960But I think Israel should have just ran in there with guns a-blazin' and taken care of this problem in two months.
00:47:03.360I think the fact that they're trying to extend this out and do the whole PR circuit about what this looks like is actually creating more harm than good.
00:47:15.180Like just go in there and finish shit quickly, effectively, fast.
00:47:19.600There is going to be collateral damage.
00:47:22.820But the longer this gets dragged on, the less likely it is that Israel is going to be able to do what they need to do to defend themselves and their way of life because they're losing the PR battle.
00:47:37.580And this is the – we live in a time of information warfare, information operations, and every decision, every move that you make is under a microscope or how – you have to look at it as playing.
00:47:50.960We like to joke and say 4D chess, right?
00:47:54.980You're playing 4D chess, and every move you're making is going to be picked apart.
00:48:01.600And so if I try to put myself in the shoes of BB Netanyahu, right, and he's probably looking at it, this is a lose-lose situation for me.
00:48:16.760And so it's – why not take the hardliner path and deal with it once and for all?
00:48:23.940And so it's – but then at the same stake, it's really awful and utterly horrifying what's happened to the average Palestinian over there.
00:48:35.120We have – but every strike that they do – and having done counterterrorism for a while is that when – and the one thing that we can walk away from the global war on terror and Operation Inherent Resolve, all these learned lessons over fighting for two decades is that when you lose –
00:48:56.300when you kill a civilian, you have CIVCAS, as we say, civilian casualties, you're going to lose the population.
00:49:04.420And in special forces, you look at what is the center of gravity, right?
00:49:09.120You look at – you do center of gravity analysis.
00:49:11.080So the center of gravity is the population, right?
00:49:14.020It's a big center of gravity in how they – what motivates them, what's their need.
00:49:20.460So every time you kill a civilian, you're losing your own legitimacy for the fight and you're losing the support of the population.
00:49:30.200So it's – we want the – if I was the Israeli government, I would want the Palestinians to reject Hamas.
00:49:37.280Now, I'm obviously not that well-versed in this stuff.
00:49:42.760I'm just kind of like a casual observer of a lot of these things.
00:49:47.360I'm more of going after the IRGC and TPRK and PLA and stuff.
00:49:57.880But – so I am speaking a little bit outside my – the court and when we're talking about Hamas and all the – and the Palestinians and the Israelis.
00:50:08.800So it's – but it's extremely complicated.
00:50:12.180It's a very complicated thing and I think a more limited version of what we're seeing would have probably produced more effects.
00:50:18.820You know, and it comes down to the trust thing.
00:50:24.280But then again, it's – when they raided that hospital, Hamas was using the entire basement as an operations center.
00:50:33.740At some point, the Palestinian people are going to have to reject it.
00:50:38.740Like that's – like there's no other – there's no other path.
00:50:42.480Like you've got traitors in your midst, you've got terrorists in your midst, and you're upset that the terrorists in your midst have infiltrated or attacked a neighboring country, a sovereign country, and that sovereign country is working to defend itself.
00:51:04.320It brings me back to, you know, initially what I said is that the average Palestinian loses the most because they have nowhere to go.
00:51:12.620They can't trust – they can't trust their leaders that took charge of them, and they can't trust the Israelis because of all the demonstrated attacks against their own people and their friends that die.
00:51:26.200So it's almost – it's a very complicated problem, but it's a self-licking ice cream cone where it's – you're going to have the next generation of Hamas fighters are learning to hate Israel, right, right now, and will vow vengeance.
00:51:44.700And you have people in there, and that's how extremism – extremism begets extremism.
00:51:49.640And as much as I'd love everyone to come together and, you know, heal, but, you know, these people have things that they want, and they've wanted for years.
00:52:01.860And just like the Israelis, they have things that they have wanted for years.
00:52:05.180Two-state solution seems to be the only way they were going to get any sort of lasting peace, I think, in the area.
00:52:12.840And I know probably a lot of Israelis would disagree with that, and you have tons of concerns on each side.
00:53:48.240Well, why don't we focus on the people that are the most threat to that, the ones that are disturbing the peace, which in this case is Hamas?
00:54:21.520And, you know, be completely clear and honest, you know, with you and your audience is that I'm not even the – I'm not the most educated guy.
00:54:28.520I'm just a dude that's, you know, been in the system for a while, you know, and I pay attention to these things.
00:54:35.480You know, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
00:54:41.240I think that's the value of discussion like this is I don't have to, even though, you know, you're coming on this podcast and I value what you have to share.
00:56:38.780I saw people, men and women do significantly more challenging, more demanding things than I ever did.
00:56:47.180I never even want to, like, pretend like I'm in the same realm as what some of these soldiers and Marines and warriors in general did for us.
00:56:55.460I will never take credit the way those guys deserve it.
00:57:00.080And but I appreciate that, you know, and it's when you're working together as a team, it's everybody shares shares a burden.
00:57:10.240You know, I just look at, you know, everything I've done.
00:57:13.000Um, even even Soleimani, it was you had some of the most highly trained special forces guys the military has ever produced come together to, you know, make that happen.
00:57:26.200Um, and and and that's that's really what it's all about.
00:57:29.820Um, sharing, sharing the, uh, the burden.
00:57:46.580Well, so my question is, you know, where two things, where do you go from here knowing all that, you know, and having this history and this, this incredible experience as a Green Beret, as an American spy, where do you take it from here?
00:58:01.140And then what does the man who's listening do with this information and how does not only he live his life, but how does he ensure that, you know, we're continuing this way of life for our posterity, you know, posterity, our children, our grandchildren, et cetera, et cetera.
00:58:18.660And so I think probably the most important thing that when you read the book, you sit down and read Into the Darkness, A Journey of Love, War and Emotional Freedom book I wrote.
00:58:27.220But, um, I want you and everyone on this, this podcast is listening, listening to this is to own your shit, own your shit, right?
00:58:37.600Like, my journey, I went for years just pushing all that stuff down until it became too much.
00:58:47.980And when I actually did, when I physically talked, physically externalized all those thoughts I was having, things started getting better for me.
00:59:00.300And whatever you're going through trouble, I want you to just sit back and ask yourself why.
00:59:09.700You know, as a, as a spy, your most important interrogative that you have to ask questions to your assets is why.
00:59:17.760And I sat there and after I got back from Iraq and I sat in that cold English basement apartment by myself during the early days of COVID, like everybody else was.
00:59:30.080And I said, you know what, now it's time to really unpack our shit, Dave.
00:59:33.980And I sat there and I wide myself to death.
00:59:38.120Why did I allow other people to treat me that way?
00:59:40.740You know, early on in the conversation, we talked about emotional dissonance, right?
00:59:44.180How did I go from an Eagle Scout, a Norwich grad, so Norwich University is a military college in Vermont that prides itself on its attrition, not so much as its acceptance rate, and so into a Green Beret to a spy, right?
01:00:03.120How did I go from doing all these successful things in my life to being this broken individual who hated himself?
01:00:11.360You know, the ugly internal dialogue, Ryan, that was going on inside me.
01:00:19.220How did I allow other people to, to, how did I allow other people to treat me that way?
01:00:24.840And I, I, there's no aha moment, gents, gents, there's no aha moment when you're trying to better yourself and be a better man.
01:00:33.000On my healing journey, and healing never ends.
01:00:35.140You got to constantly, if you're a growth mindset person, you have to put in the work.
01:00:39.700You got to put in the work and you got to put in the work every day.
01:00:42.880But what you can do to develop the self-awareness that I have is you ask yourself why.
01:00:50.060You ask yourself why about, why am I angry today?
01:00:53.140You know, what is it about, what is it about, instead of just going about and letting your emotions run unchecked and, and, and influence your decision-making, let's bring it back.
01:01:03.800You know, let's, let's, let's look internally into, into asking these questions.
01:01:08.340And the, the thing that, you know, what got me out of the dark, I, so once you get out of the darkness, you never go back, right?
01:01:44.200So, and unpacking that and, you know, at the time I didn't, I didn't really, it's like, well, Dave, why didn't you, why didn't you go to mental health?
01:02:16.300I'm not, I'm not definitely gonna, you know, I'm not gonna let them take the last thing, you know, that the last thing that I have.
01:02:26.120And so I sat there, I worked through all my shit, all those ugly conversations, you know, looking back at moments in my life where I wish I was more assertive or I wish I said this.
01:02:39.520And, and, and looking in just realizing it.
01:02:43.980And I had a calendar, I had a calendar that during that timeframe that I literally would do a mental after action review every day.
01:02:56.040So after action review in the military, Marine Corps, I think calls it the same thing, right?
01:03:01.340So after you do an operation, you come back and you say, uh, all right, Hey, these are the sustains.
01:03:16.620And for a while there was a lot of red X's in that calendar and you know, that, that fueled my defiance and you know, I'll talk another, I'd like you to write down a thing about therapy that I learned recently that I'd like to share with your audience too, but that fueled my defiance.
01:03:35.800So I woke up the next day and I was like, all right, what are we, what are we doing in a day?
01:03:48.700Then it'd be three, then it'd be four.
01:03:50.980And I'm journaling my progression out of it.
01:03:53.960And then eventually I forgot to even mark the calendar anymore.
01:03:59.580And, and, and that, and, and, um, and that was like kind of a very powerful step for me, but I kept, you know, during this timeframe of my struggle, I'd say my discipline saved me too, because I, I love going to the gym.
01:04:33.240And then, uh, and so, uh, you know, I, I get up and I go to, you know, I do at that time in COVID, I was doing a lot of kettlebell work, but I was, I lived, it was about a six mile round trip from my apartment to Lincoln Memorial.
01:04:46.440And I'd run, I'd go run to Lincoln Memorial every day.
01:04:51.020Um, I used to run ultras a few years ago.
01:04:54.540Um, so I still had my, you know, ultra legs, as I like to say.
01:04:58.640And, uh, you know, I'd sit there on the steps of Lincoln and I would say, dude, where did it all go wrong, man?
01:05:38.300Well, I know we didn't get a lot into the book and some of the, um, mental struggle and victory, but I would highly encourage anybody to pick up a copy of the book into the darkness.
01:05:49.360Because I think more than what we went into today, there's a lot of information about redemption and improvement and getting hold of your life.
01:05:58.740They tell the guys where to connect with you, where to pick up a copy of the book and where to learn more about what you're up to.
01:06:04.240Absolutely. Thank you, Ryan. Um, you can pick up a copy of into the darkness on Amazon, go ahead, search into the darkness by Dave fielding.
01:06:12.880It'll pop right up. Um, and then, uh, if you want to connect with me on Instagram, uh, Dave fielding dot D O L D O L stands for depresso liber, the special forces motto.
01:06:24.160So that's Dave fielding dot D O L and then, uh, Dave fielding D O L on X as well.
01:06:30.060Um, hit me up, you know, and if you're a guy struggling, I want to hear from you.
01:06:36.640Awesome. Thanks brother. Yeah. We'll post everything up. So the guys know where to go, brother. I appreciate you. Appreciate your work and your sacrifice to this country and sharing and imparting some of your wisdom with us today. Thanks, man.
01:06:50.420Gentlemen, there you go. The conversation with Dave fielding. I, I, uh, got a little heated in this one and I didn't realize that I would, I was taking notes and planning.
01:07:00.040Depending on the conversation, I didn't know that I would get as heat as I, as I did, but, uh, I was fired up about some things and Dave was gracious enough to spend his time and resources and energy and joining us and imparting some of his wisdom and experience upon us.
01:07:14.800So I would highly suggest that you pick up a copy of his book into the darkness, a journey of love, war, and emotional freedom, especially if this is something that resonates with you and it should be for all of us.
01:07:25.400Uh, I would also suggest that you head over to order of man.com and get our email newsletter. So you can, uh, be notified when we come up with our divorce resources and, uh, then check out Montana knife company.com and use the code order of man. Those are your marching orders outside of that.
01:07:45.620Just leave a rating review. Take a few minutes. If you've found any value in what we do, uh, I don't think it's too much to ask that you just go in and leave a rating and review, uh, let men know what you're listening to take a screenshot, tag me, tag Dave, and, uh, give other men the resources that hopefully are serving you guys.
01:08:03.480That's all I have for today. We'll be back for our ask me anything tomorrow until then go out there, take action and become a man.