Order of Man - PAYAM PAKMANESH ｜ The Rules of Male Conversation

00:00:00.000 For something that we do every single day and something that has the power to change

00:00:04.240 every aspect of our lives, we sure don't focus on it.

00:00:07.640 We don't train it.

00:00:08.380 We don't develop it.

00:00:09.780 And that thing is conversation.

00:00:11.620 Nothing great ever happened in your life without first a conversation.

00:00:15.180 No promotion, no jobs, no clients, no dates, nothing.

00:00:20.400 My guest today, Payam Pakmanesh, known as the Convo Guy, is here to explain why and

00:00:25.520 more importantly, how we can build and develop our ability to communicate more effectively.

00:00:32.000 We cover the proper principles of communication, Adlerian psychology, and how it helps you focus

00:00:38.780 on what you can control.

00:00:40.700 The quote unquote Zoom flow model for deeper connection, how to make yourself more approachable

00:00:46.420 and becoming aware of how others perceive you.

00:00:50.120 You're a man of action.

00:00:51.040 You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:55.840 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:01:00.260 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:05.300 This is your life.

00:01:06.440 This is who you are.

00:01:07.860 This is who you will become.

00:01:09.580 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:15.260 Gentlemen, what's going on?

00:01:16.560 I am Ryan Michler.

00:01:17.540 I'm the founder and the host of the Order of Man podcast and movement.

00:01:21.000 Welcome here today.

00:01:22.080 Very excited about the lineup of guests that we've had on recently and the lineup that we

00:01:26.760 are creating as we roll into Q4 of 2025 and into Q1 of 2026.

00:01:33.760 Wild to say that.

00:01:34.800 I've got a really important conversation for you today.

00:01:37.100 In fact, maybe one of the most important conversations on the subject of conversations.

00:01:42.280 Guys, it's crucial that we know how to talk with other people.

00:01:45.060 If we have any hope of accomplishing our dreams, goals, and desires in life, I'll get into that

00:01:51.400 in just a minute.

00:01:52.280 I had a really interesting experience just last night or the night before I was cooking

00:01:57.160 some dinner and I was looking all over for my Montana knife company knife.

00:02:02.300 The one that I use to cut cilantro, steak, everything.

00:02:06.320 I just, I use those knives looking all over, couldn't find it.

00:02:09.900 I had other knives that I could have used.

00:02:11.700 And in my head, I remember thinking, I'm not going to use those other knives because

00:02:16.080 I've got these Montana knife company knives and they are the best knives that I've ever

00:02:21.080 used.

00:02:21.580 And maybe I'm a bit of a knife snob now, but I would not use another knife.

00:02:26.760 So I finally tracked it down, used those knives, made a delicious meal, and we were on with the

00:02:32.820 rest of our evening.

00:02:33.680 Now I bring that up because my friends over at Montana knife company are doing incredible

00:02:38.700 things, making these blades and bringing them to you all 100% made in America.

00:02:45.240 And I really think that you're going to have the same experience and probably turn into

00:02:49.500 a bit of a knife snob yourself in the kitchen or in the field.

00:02:53.280 Check it out guys at Montana knife company.com and use the code order of man.

00:02:58.720 Again, Montana knife company, use the code order of man.

00:03:02.980 Let me introduce you to my guest.

00:03:04.700 His name is Payam Pakmanesh.

00:03:06.400 He's better known online as the convo guy.

00:03:09.360 He's an expert in effective communication.

00:03:12.340 He works with men literally all over the world with how to be more influential, credible, and

00:03:18.640 relatable to the people they care about.

00:03:21.200 After decades working in tech and sales and marketing and software engineering, which isn't

00:03:26.900 exactly known for its ability for those individuals to communicate effectively, Payam turned his

00:03:34.880 attention full time to helping people become more confident and assertive with their words.

00:03:40.860 He works with overthinkers, men trying to get more dates, execs trying to enlist others into

00:03:47.140 their vision, and those simply just trying to get out of their heads.

00:03:51.420 Guys, this is a very, very solid topic, and there aren't as many people who are as well

00:03:56.920 qualified to lead us through it than Payam.

00:04:01.520 You know, what's so amazing to me is how every opportunity that I've had come into my life

00:04:07.340 and that I know other men have come into their lives all starts with a conversation, and yet

00:04:13.300 there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of formal conversation or education or resources around

00:04:21.760 what every single human being uses every single day of their life.

00:04:26.020 Yeah, you hit it on the nail there, Ryan.

00:04:27.840 I mean, when it comes to communication, when it comes to conversation, literally, without

00:04:32.080 exaggerating, one conversation can change your life.

00:04:34.820 Whether it's having that tough conversation with your boss, whether it's you trying to ask

00:04:39.120 the girl out, whether it's you trying to ask for a raise, everything boils down to the words

00:04:44.960 you say.

00:04:46.880 But most men, they haven't had the proper training, they haven't had the proper guidance,

00:04:51.360 and they just sort of wing it, or they'll just ask friends, and that becomes their belief

00:04:58.900 system for the rest of their life.

00:05:02.680 When you say they ask their friends, what are you saying?

00:05:05.520 Like, they would ask their friends how they come across or how they present themselves?

00:05:08.580 Is that what you mean?

00:05:09.260 Yeah, so it's either that, or they ask their immediate circle for guidance, without questioning

00:05:14.220 whether that guidance is even accurate in the first place.

00:05:17.580 See, we're all, every one of us is influenced by our genetics, our immediate circle, the way

00:05:24.200 we were raised, our cultural upbringing, so on and so forth, right?

00:05:27.640 So what I'm saying is, without ever being exposed to some of the proper principles, which is what

00:05:32.500 I try to educate using psychology or behavioral science, a lot of men live their entire

00:05:38.560 life without ever reaching their maximum peak potential, because communication goes hand

00:05:43.460 in hand with confidence.

00:05:45.120 In order to communicate effectively, you have to be confident.

00:05:48.340 And when you are confident, you communicate effectively.

00:05:51.340 Yeah, it's like asking somebody who's severely obese or out of shape how to become strong physically.

00:06:00.600 It's just not going to work.

00:06:01.860 It's laughable in that circumstance, but when it comes to communication, well, you know, I

00:06:07.360 also imagine it's so much nurture as opposed to nature that we don't even think about it.

00:06:14.880 One thing that blows my mind is that every person's voice is made up.

00:06:19.280 It's not actually your quote unquote real voice, which is why we have accents, which is why

00:06:24.940 we speak different languages, which is why men who probably grow up around women probably

00:06:30.860 have higher voices than men who grow up around men predominantly, because it's not so much

00:06:35.800 nature as much as it is nurture.

00:06:38.260 Yeah, that's well said.

00:06:39.580 And I, you know, I'll take it to the next level.

00:06:41.080 I grew up in the Bay Area, right, California, growing up here, people always would say things

00:06:46.880 like, what the hell or get the hell out of here.

00:06:49.680 When I lived on the East Coast, I lived in New York for a couple of years.

00:06:52.300 Nobody said the word hell.

00:06:54.480 Nobody even phrased things like that.

00:06:56.460 And then it just dawned on me.

00:06:58.240 I mean, I already knew this, but it just dawned on me even more so that, wow, wait a second.

00:07:02.540 Our surroundings plus our genetics has a massive influence on us.

00:07:07.400 Sometimes we focus so much on the nurture.

00:07:09.020 I apologize that, yes, the nurture instead of the nature, how we are raised, our genetic

00:07:13.460 disposition, so on and so forth, that we kind of underplay that.

00:07:18.500 Yeah, it's wild that you wouldn't use this incredible tool called your voice to project

00:07:24.060 confidence, to ask for what you want, to communicate something about yourself.

00:07:28.620 We all put our clothes on every single day and you pick the clothes you wear because you

00:07:32.520 think it says something about who you are to other people.

00:07:35.320 Yeah, we don't think about it when it comes to our voice.

00:07:37.420 Yeah, it's, and you know, it's, it's interesting.

00:07:39.780 One of the first exercises I sometimes work with my clients on is I just ask them, film

00:07:45.880 yourself, just film yourself.

00:07:48.600 And they're like, well, you know, I'm not posting on Instagram.

00:07:50.720 I'm not posting content.

00:07:51.560 I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:07:52.660 This is not about posting on social media.

00:07:54.780 I want you to see how you talk because you think you know how you talk, but you don't really

00:08:00.360 know how you're coming across.

00:08:01.620 And just that simple exercise of filming themselves, whether they send it to me, which is what I

00:08:06.640 asked them to do, or they just watch it themselves.

00:08:09.520 Boom.

00:08:10.080 Big revelation in their head.

00:08:11.420 Wow.

00:08:11.660 I actually had no idea that I sound like that.

00:08:15.300 I had no idea that I don't make eye contact.

00:08:17.580 I had no idea.

00:08:18.360 I use this many filler words.

00:08:21.440 All of this is impacting your perceived credibility and intelligence.

00:08:25.040 When, let's say somebody decides, hey, you know what, I'm going to go ahead and film

00:08:30.980 myself after this podcast and read an excerpt from a book or something like that and just

00:08:35.940 see how I communicate.

00:08:37.800 What is it that they should be looking for?

00:08:40.380 I know for myself, one of the traps that I often fall into is my pace is very fast and

00:08:46.840 I have to be very deliberate about slowing that down.

00:08:51.220 Yeah, that's interesting.

00:08:52.260 You say that that's one of the common things I see sometimes.

00:08:54.560 And this may not be you, Ryan, but sometimes it could be related to a fear of having the

00:09:01.260 silence.

00:09:03.760 A lot of men fear dealing with that.

00:09:06.400 They think it's awkward.

00:09:07.340 They think they're being judged negatively.

00:09:10.420 So I would say something as simple as record yourself for 60 seconds, maybe talk about something

00:09:16.100 that you know well, so you're not worried about the content of the subject matter.

00:09:20.200 And the two things you should immediately try to be conscious of, which is the two lowest

00:09:25.980 hanging fruits is remove filler words.

00:09:29.980 Like even things like basically or essentially.

00:09:34.320 Sometimes those are hidden filler words.

00:09:36.780 We may not even know it.

00:09:37.820 And I didn't know that until much later.

00:09:39.040 And then second is intentionally pausing, feeling that out.

00:09:44.540 Very similar to exposure therapy.

00:09:46.700 Feel it.

00:09:48.320 Marinate in that silence.

00:09:50.760 And you'll see it's actually not that bad.

00:09:52.620 And if you watch some of the most powerful speakers in the world, they marinate in the

00:09:57.440 silence.

00:09:58.260 Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos.

00:09:59.820 They own it.

00:10:01.160 That's what gives off their leadership aura.

00:10:03.720 Everybody's waiting.

00:10:04.880 What are they going to say next?

00:10:06.940 That's it's almost like a movie trailer, right?

00:10:09.860 The movie trailer before the movie.

00:10:11.260 Let them let them enjoy that.

00:10:14.700 The filler words are interesting to me because I can't think of what they are right now, but

00:10:19.200 there are a few crutches that I have.

00:10:21.760 And when I do a podcast, I actually go back actually is probably one of them.

00:10:26.780 I go back and listen to my podcast with a critical ear.

00:10:31.820 What questions could I have asked?

00:10:33.420 What did I miss right there?

00:10:34.840 Where could I have gone deeper?

00:10:36.580 Where did I stutter?

00:10:37.780 Where did I go too fast?

00:10:39.080 And I'm trying to be very critical in a constructive way.

00:10:42.800 I was listening to an interview that Kamala Harris had done of all people.

00:10:50.020 And one of her crutches, filler words or phrases is in terms of.

00:10:55.540 I recognize that.

00:10:56.620 She'll say something and she'll say in terms of how this goes.

00:10:59.900 And I think what people are doing is not only the fear of silence, but are they buying themselves

00:11:05.840 some time to think as well?

00:11:07.420 You just got it.

00:11:08.500 I think it's more so the latter than the former.

00:11:11.100 And just so you know, Ryan, you're doing an excellent job on this podcast so far.

00:11:15.400 I appreciate that.

00:11:16.600 Well, look, I feel like I'm going to be critiqued if I don't get this right.

00:11:20.180 So I'm going to slow things down a little bit and make sure I nail this.

00:11:22.760 You know, what's funny is sometimes it's because of the nature of what I do.

00:11:25.760 I have to consciously turn off my critique head because in my work, I'm always looking

00:11:31.800 for the gaps of like, how can they improve?

00:11:33.420 So on and so forth.

00:11:34.040 It's not to say that I've mastered everything, but it's it's this idea of how do I just turn

00:11:38.580 it off and just connect with the human being?

00:11:40.200 So don't worry.

00:11:41.920 You're good.

00:11:43.500 Are your friends weird around you?

00:11:45.280 It's almost like watching a movie with a film critic.

00:11:47.440 It's just not enjoyable.

00:11:49.100 You know, believe it or not, they haven't actually brought it up to me like, hey, are you critiquing

00:11:51.880 me?

00:11:52.040 I think they've just known me for so long that they have not brought that up.

00:11:54.580 But who knows?

00:11:55.160 Who knows what they're thinking?

00:11:56.100 But yeah, for the most part, I'm very I'm always myself.

00:12:00.500 That's one thing that I'm really proud of is I just try to stay 100% me all day long.

00:12:06.540 And I feel like my friends recognize that.

00:12:09.740 And so they're they are relaxed around me.

00:12:14.140 Well, that's an interesting thought.

00:12:16.760 You try to be 100% you all the time.

00:12:19.680 What what is you as it relates to communication?

00:12:23.180 Because there is a fear I imagine that a lot of people have that if they try something new

00:12:28.380 with their voice or their tone or their inflection or their pacing, that they're not being authentic.

00:12:37.600 Well, at the end of the day, what we're doing here in our in my work with clients is helping

00:12:41.940 them not change the content of the message, just how they present the message.

00:12:46.560 So it's we're not really changing who you are.

00:12:48.780 It's just changing the delivery mechanism.

00:12:52.340 That's all it is.

00:12:53.000 So, for example, I could say something like, hey, Ryan, this is everything that I did yesterday.

00:12:58.460 Run off a long laundry list.

00:13:00.320 Or I could be like, hey, Ryan, these are the three things that I did yesterday.

00:13:03.200 One, two, three.

00:13:04.860 And as this is obviously a very, very simple example.

00:13:07.420 As the listener, you, if I say these are the three things I did, you know automatically,

00:13:13.680 OK, there's three items coming.

00:13:15.760 Then I say one.

00:13:16.600 I did this.

00:13:17.440 Then, you know, all right, there's two left that you're just doing this automatically.

00:13:20.620 And while the viewers may be listening and be like, well, that's obvious.

00:13:24.700 It's not always obvious in high stakes situations when the deal is on the line, when you're about

00:13:30.060 to have a hard conversation, when you want to critique someone's report, whatever it may

00:13:36.580 be.

00:13:36.860 When nerves are up, all of this goes out the window.

00:13:41.140 So what I try to remind people of is just, hey, there are only just simple adjustments

00:13:45.040 you need to make.

00:13:46.200 You just need to practice these adjustments.

00:13:47.920 These adjustments then become part of your habit.

00:13:50.240 And that habit becomes part of your identity.

00:13:52.220 So we are never changing who you are.

00:13:54.200 Actually, I appreciate you bringing that up because that's one thing I don't want anybody

00:13:57.680 to think is that I'm asking you to not be authentic.

00:14:00.560 And that's something that came for me personally.

00:14:03.520 It came with a little bit of aging.

00:14:05.120 Like you just realize, wait a second, I'm actually not going to be here forever.

00:14:09.600 So why am I wearing a mask still?

00:14:11.840 That's one thing I say a lot of my content you may have seen.

00:14:13.940 I just, I hate people that wear masks that just try to pretend to be someone that they're

00:14:18.740 not.

00:14:19.740 I just can't, I can't stand it personally.

00:14:21.500 Well, and I think it's very easy for people to sniff out and it comes across as disingenuous

00:14:27.380 and it really breaks down trust as opposed to building it up.

00:14:32.300 It does.

00:14:33.260 It does.

00:14:33.860 And you know, that's, that's one thing where I would say as humans, we're very good at

00:14:37.820 is sniffing something that feels a little fishy or feels, feels a little performative

00:14:42.920 is people who are trying to be somebody that they're not.

00:14:45.900 And we need authenticity more than ever today, more than ever.

00:14:52.360 Just where, you know, you see it in correspondence, in emails, on websites, on, on everything.

00:14:58.460 Chat GPT messages.

00:14:59.620 It's so obvious.

00:15:00.540 That's all chat GPT.

00:15:01.820 Just one robot human is talking to another robot human.

00:15:04.320 I'm like, what's going on right now?

00:15:07.100 It's crazy.

00:15:09.220 Yeah, I, well, okay.

00:15:10.660 So on, on the subject of the way that you're landing or resonating with other individuals

00:15:16.720 and repackaging your communication style so people can receive it, I think that's the

00:15:21.940 ultimate point.

00:15:22.920 And then you can be influential to some degree with them.

00:15:25.780 How much should you take into consideration the way people are interpreting your messaging

00:15:31.880 and what cues should you be looking for as to whether or not they're engaged in the conversation

00:15:41.640 or they're disengaging or completely checked out at that point?

00:15:46.520 Yeah, that's a good question.

00:15:48.280 To answer the first part in terms of how your message is being interpreted, to a certain extent

00:15:54.700 you have control over that.

00:15:56.820 But there's also a portion of it that's, right, this is a, this is a two-way street.

00:16:01.040 I could say certain things, you could be distracted, you could lose interest, and that's

00:16:05.040 not on me.

00:16:05.660 So there's something known as Adlerian psychology, where basically the idea is that is somebody

00:16:11.020 else's task.

00:16:12.620 You focus on your tasks.

00:16:14.520 This goes hand in hand with stoicism as well.

00:16:16.760 I'm just controlling what I can control, my thoughts and my actions, and in this case,

00:16:20.500 my words.

00:16:21.660 Now, how you interpret it?

00:16:22.840 Yes, I can help make that a little bit more crystal clear.

00:16:25.600 For sure.

00:16:26.240 For sure.

00:16:27.500 In terms of answering your second question, what are the cues?

00:16:30.700 The big one, and maybe obvious one, is the eye contact, right?

00:16:33.840 If people are disengaged, if they're looking at their cell phone, if they're looking away.

00:16:38.360 Other times, this is a little bit more subtle and advanced, is you'll hear people say this

00:16:43.100 all the time.

00:16:44.220 Oh, sure.

00:16:45.060 Or, yeah, that's right.

00:16:45.800 That's right.

00:16:46.100 Definitely, definitely.

00:16:46.980 It's almost like they're just repeating copy and paste acknowledgement phrases, like

00:16:53.600 they're listening, if that makes any sense.

00:16:55.260 Yeah, it does.

00:16:58.340 They hear what you're saying, but they're not really listening because they're done with

00:17:03.700 the conversation.

00:17:04.760 It is amazing, though, how often people don't pick up on that cue.

00:17:08.040 They just keep rolling and rattling.

00:17:09.880 And that's, it's quite frustrating if you're done with a conversation, actually.

00:17:13.800 Yeah, it is.

00:17:14.500 It is frustrating.

00:17:15.200 And actually, on that note of listening, Ryan, you know, it's interesting because something

00:17:19.240 that I've worked on, even in the last five years or so, is really, like, if you know

00:17:25.200 if someone's listening, if they take their time to not only process what you've said,

00:17:32.360 but how they're going to reply to you.

00:17:35.340 It's obvious when someone's not listening is, it's obvious if someone isn't listening

00:17:40.040 is when they reply right away, especially if it's like a complex question.

00:17:44.680 Because then all they're doing as you're talking is they're already preparing their answer as

00:17:50.000 you're speaking.

00:17:51.100 So that's like a little giveaway.

00:17:52.500 Again, it's not, none of these are 100% certain, of course, but they tend to, they tend to show

00:17:57.980 a pattern over time.

00:18:00.880 And I've even tried to learn and am currently trying to learn to be a better listener and

00:18:06.940 the way that I receive information, because one thing I know about myself is when I'm concentrating

00:18:12.900 or, or actually listening intently to the person, I know that I have a very stern look on my

00:18:18.520 face and people have said that before.

00:18:20.900 Are you mad?

00:18:21.800 And no, I'm not mad.

00:18:23.660 I'm, I'm listening to you.

00:18:25.100 I'm actually really enjoying what you have to say right now, but it is something I have

00:18:28.200 to be highly aware of.

00:18:29.840 Yeah.

00:18:30.220 I know what you mean.

00:18:31.100 I know what you mean, you know, and this, and this kind of goes back to what we said,

00:18:34.300 you know, just control the things you can control.

00:18:36.020 We all have, we all have the face that we have now, obviously for you or people that have

00:18:40.500 this, maybe this, for lack of a better word, fear of how they're being perceived, you know,

00:18:45.200 there's subtle things you could do, like just smiling that one extra time, maybe just giving

00:18:49.460 someone that extra boost of energy.

00:18:51.640 So they know you're enjoying the conversation, but again, you are who you are.

00:18:55.320 And this goes back to our earlier conversation, which is own who you are, how they interpret

00:18:59.640 it is on them.

00:19:00.240 Like I know right now, even if you have this stern look, which hasn't bothered me even a

00:19:04.200 second, I don't, I don't take that as Ryan's not happy with me.

00:19:08.580 Ryan's not happy with what I'm saying or any of that.

00:19:11.600 I just look at that as that's Ryan.

00:19:13.580 He could be, he could have a thousand things going on in his life for me to assume that

00:19:18.840 it has to do with this is, is just a faulty mindset that only just makes me go down a

00:19:24.620 rabbit hole.

00:19:25.220 Number one, number two, it's even borderline, borderline egotistical for me to think of all

00:19:30.860 the things that Ryan could be thinking about.

00:19:32.600 He's thinking about me 150%.

00:19:35.680 Yeah, that's, that is interesting.

00:19:39.560 I imagine also that it just, it gets you in your head when you should be worrying about

00:19:44.600 the message or the service that you're trying to offer to somebody.

00:19:48.120 Getting in your own head is the specialty of what I do, except I try to help people get

00:19:53.920 out of their head because people are in it.

00:19:56.980 They're just, they go down a downward spiral.

00:19:59.600 They misinterpret a message.

00:20:01.020 They say something they don't want to say.

00:20:02.500 They say the filler word.

00:20:03.340 They have a hiccup in the conversation.

00:20:04.660 I've already had a couple of hiccups in this conversation, but I'm not going to just go

00:20:07.740 double click on it and just go all the way down.

00:20:10.700 That's, that's not going to be beneficial.

00:20:12.300 I just run with it.

00:20:13.640 I just be me the whole time.

00:20:15.080 I mess up.

00:20:15.720 It's okay.

00:20:16.860 Right.

00:20:17.140 But when we, when we get in our own head, it tends to be hand in hand with perfectionism

00:20:23.480 a little bit.

00:20:24.020 Perfectionism and also this idea of, I fear what other people are thinking of me.

00:20:31.940 This tends to be the root cause of most communication problems and why people avoid having even hard

00:20:41.420 conversations or certain conversations because they're overthinking and they're just so invested

00:20:47.240 in what others are thinking of them.

00:20:49.020 And that's something I've even had to work on year after year.

00:20:51.800 Just how do I, cause some of this is obviously this goes back to our hunter gatherer days.

00:20:56.540 We needed to be part of a tribe to survive.

00:20:59.320 We can't just automatically hit a light switch and be just be like F everybody.

00:21:03.620 I'm going to do me all day long, you know, catch flights, not feelings.

00:21:07.520 You know, this whole thing there.

00:21:11.620 Some of that sounds cool, but it's not reality.

00:21:13.700 I, I 100% agree.

00:21:17.240 I got so, I don't hear it as often as I used to several years ago, but so tired of hearing

00:21:21.940 this zero Fs mentality, right?

00:21:24.560 I don't care what anybody else thinks.

00:21:26.260 If they don't like me, that's their problem.

00:21:28.660 And while I understand the sentiment, there are actually people that I care about what they

00:21:33.380 think of me.

00:21:34.120 You know, I care about how my kids perceive me.

00:21:37.320 I care about how my girlfriend perceives me.

00:21:39.480 I care about how the people who are listening to this podcast perceive me.

00:21:43.540 I'm not so arrogant to believe that I just have to speak and everybody owes me their allegiance

00:21:50.700 and their, and their, uh, obedience.

00:21:53.920 Yeah.

00:21:54.440 And you, and you bring up an important distinction.

00:21:55.860 I appreciate you saying that Ryan is there's obviously certain people you want their opinion,

00:22:02.640 the immediate family, the immediate tribe.

00:22:04.520 But when you go and give permission and listen to everybody, then you go down a toxic rabbit

00:22:11.540 hole.

00:22:11.820 So I appreciate you bringing that up.

00:22:12.780 That's definitely, there's definitely, there's a balance, which is most of life is find the

00:22:18.960 balance.

00:22:19.440 Don't go extreme either way.

00:22:22.380 I do like the visual of double clicking on that, that issue or that little self-conscious

00:22:30.220 thought that you had over indexing and just diving deeper and deeper and deeper, just

00:22:35.860 chalk it up to being a human being.

00:22:37.820 You messed up and so on.

00:22:39.040 You were talking about the, uh, Adlerian, I think it's pronounced Adlerian psychology.

00:22:44.600 I just, I was just introduced to that.

00:22:47.200 I think it was in the book, the courage to be disliked is where I picked that up.

00:22:51.280 It was in that book.

00:22:52.120 I, are you, are you familiar with, with what that is?

00:22:55.880 Cause I'm, I don't fully have a complete grasp on it.

00:22:58.120 Cause I just got to that section in the book.

00:22:59.680 Sure.

00:23:00.080 To a certain extent, I am.

00:23:01.440 It's very similar to stoicism in a certain way, which is this, the idea of how people

00:23:05.560 feel about you, what they think about you, how they interpret your, your message, your

00:23:09.440 communication in certain aspects is not your task.

00:23:12.860 They use this phrase a lot tasks.

00:23:14.840 You worry about your tasks.

00:23:16.360 If someone else is upset, that's their task.

00:23:19.040 You just worry about what you need to do.

00:23:21.460 So I want to say it's almost a simpler version of stoicism to a certain extent gives you, it

00:23:27.620 gives you the breathing room to, to relax, to have peace of mind, to know that there

00:23:32.740 are only certain things that you can control the rest of it.

00:23:35.900 You can't.

00:23:36.460 So don't worry about it.

00:23:37.660 Try not to get invested in it.

00:23:39.320 So for great book, by the way, that book, I've, I've seen it multiple times.

00:23:44.020 I think it came out maybe a couple of years ago, if I'm not mistaken, maybe before that,

00:23:46.920 but it's very popular.

00:23:48.500 Even the title is very, it's very intriguing.

00:23:50.980 Of course, too.

00:23:52.640 Yeah.

00:23:53.200 Yeah.

00:23:53.540 I, I haven't quite caught the stride.

00:23:55.580 You know how there's a tone with every book and sometimes it takes a little while to get

00:23:59.460 into.

00:23:59.740 I haven't caught quite caught the stride on that book yet.

00:24:03.360 Although the subject matter is, is pretty good and absolutely relevant in today's, in

00:24:08.980 today's society.

00:24:11.100 Beyond relevant, beyond relevant because everyone's trying to be liked or they're trying to portray

00:24:15.740 a certain image on Instagram or they're trying to be somebody that they're not all in the

00:24:20.600 interest of gaining a higher status.

00:24:22.700 Everyone's playing status games, everybody, everyone.

00:24:26.220 And to some, to some extent, we're still kind of like kids in that regard, you know, going

00:24:31.640 back to the book though, you're right.

00:24:32.800 The way that it's structured, I know what you mean.

00:24:35.280 I will say this though, the way, if I remember correctly, the way that it's written is, it's

00:24:40.600 different than a lot of books.

00:24:41.540 Cause if I'm not mistaken, it's almost like a mentor and his protege, if I'm not mistaken,

00:24:45.380 and they're sort of having this conversation that goes on chapter by chapter, I found that

00:24:50.140 kind of refreshing.

00:24:51.000 Cause like, I actually haven't stumbled upon a book that kind of works its way through

00:24:53.860 this.

00:24:54.140 Some of it feels like real life, sort of like karate kid or something.

00:24:57.160 So that was kind of cool, but I hear you on, on, on, on, on certain aspects of the book.

00:25:02.840 Well, just to pivot gears and switch up a little bit, you know, we talked a bit about how others

00:25:08.620 perceive us, what cues we can look for in your experience, because you do coaching with individuals

00:25:14.340 that want to learn how to be better communicators.

00:25:16.740 What, what are you seeing where most men are stumbling, um, common missteps, and then maybe

00:25:23.260 we can get into the solutions and things to do instead.

00:25:25.780 Yeah.

00:25:26.020 So this kind of goes to our earlier conversation.

00:25:28.660 The two most common things that people struggle with are the filler words and fearing the silence.

00:25:36.260 Literally, those are the two levers where if you just turn those on and be more consciously

00:25:40.960 aware of them, that will significantly improve how you are perceived in terms of being a good

00:25:45.880 communicator.

00:25:46.840 Okay.

00:25:47.500 Now, the other things that we need to focus on, this is a little bit more in depth is auditing

00:25:52.500 your stories, your belief system, because sometimes in a conversation, someone may, a conversation

00:25:58.520 is a two way street, right?

00:25:59.600 We're talking, I'm not giving a speech to you.

00:26:02.500 I talk, then you talk and we go back and forth.

00:26:04.500 And it's very easy for me to be like, Oh, you know what?

00:26:08.500 Why did Ryan just ask me that?

00:26:11.100 Why did he look this way?

00:26:12.720 And so what's happening is there is an event that event produces a reaction in me, maybe

00:26:20.440 frustration, annoyance, overthinking that reaction.

00:26:24.680 Then influences a story.

00:26:27.380 I've told myself about the meaning of that reaction.

00:26:31.040 And that story then influences my next move.

00:26:34.380 So what I'm getting at with all this is after you've tackled the filler words and being better

00:26:39.920 with silence, being okay with that, you next need to audit your stories.

00:26:46.920 Where'd they come from?

00:26:49.060 How do you know this to even be true?

00:26:51.220 And this is where a lot of the secret sauce is done because most people never do that inner

00:26:56.860 work ever.

00:26:57.880 They just live their life assuming that how they see things is how everybody sees it.

00:27:03.820 And it's just not true.

00:27:04.680 And this took me a long time to learn actually, because like most men, maybe you even can relate

00:27:11.340 to this, right?

00:27:11.900 You know, you grow up, you feel masculine at times, you feel physically strong, you feel

00:27:17.100 intelligent.

00:27:17.620 It's so easy to kind of fall into this egotistical trap where, of course, of course, everybody sees

00:27:25.760 this situation the way I see it.

00:27:28.740 It's only common sense.

00:27:30.740 But even common sense is not common.

00:27:33.380 Even that is influenced by the way you were raised, by your experiences, by your trauma,

00:27:39.840 by what you had, by what you didn't have.

00:27:41.540 You know, you know, where I see this play out, maybe it's not so much in the realm of

00:27:49.060 communication, but I've thought about this often.

00:27:51.800 You're driving down the highway and a car pulls in front of you and cuts you off and

00:27:56.900 you immediately react.

00:27:59.180 Maybe you flip the guy off.

00:28:00.460 Maybe you honk at him.

00:28:01.620 You think he's an idiot.

00:28:02.540 You think he's an asshole.

00:28:03.520 You think all the worst things.

00:28:04.560 But what you've never think is maybe that guy just got an emergency phone call and he's

00:28:11.480 racing to the hospital because his wife or kid is in the hospital.

00:28:14.780 Or maybe he's running late for a crucial job interview and he's been out of work for the

00:28:21.380 past six months and he needs to nail this interview.

00:28:24.340 And I feel like if we're going to make up stories about the experiences around us, we might as well

00:28:31.440 just make up a story that serves us rather than gets us pissed off and getting us to

00:28:36.480 do dumb things.

00:28:38.680 Ryan, are you sure you're not a coach, dude?

00:28:40.360 Because that was excellent advice.

00:28:43.860 Well, good, good.

00:28:45.000 I've thought about it here and there.

00:28:47.040 No, I hear you.

00:28:48.040 I would second that.

00:28:49.380 It is important to, if we can acknowledge that we have control over the stories, let's

00:28:54.520 pick the ones that serve us.

00:28:55.720 It's so funny.

00:28:56.400 You literally are saying this story because I just told my parents the other day, I was at

00:29:00.560 the gym, got done with my workout, went to my car.

00:29:05.260 I'm pulling out of the, and I drive like a grandma.

00:29:07.560 I do not drive fast.

00:29:08.680 I'm not a car guy.

00:29:09.660 I just drive.

00:29:10.580 I just follow the rules.

00:29:11.760 I just, I don't even care to go fast at all.

00:29:13.580 So I'm driving and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm leaving my parking spot.

00:29:18.200 All right.

00:29:18.580 And so I'm just going really slowly out of the parking spot.

00:29:21.620 Some guy speeds in front of me, slams on the brake.

00:29:25.020 He wasn't looking.

00:29:26.160 And then he's, he suddenly sees me pulling out, slams on the brake.

00:29:30.560 And then gets startled and kind of, he starts mean mugging me because what he realized is

00:29:35.600 I think he had a cup of coffee or something in his passenger seat and that it spilled.

00:29:41.940 So he's blaming me for his coffee or whatever was there that spilled and he's mean mugging

00:29:47.820 me.

00:29:48.080 Right.

00:29:48.540 And so then he pulls over to the side.

00:29:50.500 Then he gets out of the car and I'm about to leave and I have to drive by him to exit

00:29:55.440 the gym.

00:29:56.040 And in my head in seconds, I'm like, Oh shit.

00:29:59.660 What's this guy?

00:30:00.400 What is this guy even about to do?

00:30:01.620 Yeah.

00:30:01.860 Here we go.

00:30:02.320 Here we go.

00:30:02.820 Right.

00:30:03.080 And he's, he's trying to provoke me.

00:30:05.560 You know, this is typical toxic male behavior, mean mugging.

00:30:10.380 And this guy's an older gentleman.

00:30:12.040 This guy's probably in his late fifties, early sixties.

00:30:14.580 And I'm not even saying like I could have taken him or what, it's not even about that.

00:30:17.180 It's just, do I even want to partake in this?

00:30:21.200 So I drive right by him.

00:30:22.960 He's mean mugging me the whole time.

00:30:24.440 I just look at him for a second.

00:30:26.280 And then I continue driving off the old Pion five, 10, 15 years ago.

00:30:32.240 I don't know what I would have done, but the new Pion, I don't let that bother me because

00:30:35.840 to your point, connecting it now to what you said, who knows what's going on in this

00:30:40.460 guy's life.

00:30:41.360 Usually the way certain people react in that sort of environment, they probably got some

00:30:46.200 personal problems we don't know about.

00:30:47.620 Man, I'm going to step away from that discussion very briefly because I want to talk with you

00:30:53.420 about something.

00:30:54.440 And I have to be honest in my experience.

00:30:56.560 I believe that, you know, there's more in you than the way that you've been showing up.

00:31:02.260 You've got goals that you haven't met.

00:31:04.420 You've got promises that you've broken to yourself and others.

00:31:07.720 You have a vision for your life.

00:31:09.620 It gets pushed off till someday, but you know, as well as I do that your life isn't going to

00:31:16.040 change on someday, it changes when you have a circle of brothers who won't let you fall

00:31:24.500 into excuses, who won't let you fall into isolation.

00:31:28.440 Being around driven men, disciplined, tested.

00:31:31.780 These guys are going to challenge you, sharpen you, and help you become the kind of father

00:31:36.740 and husband and leader and protector that you keep telling yourself that you want to be,

00:31:41.540 but haven't done anything about it.

00:31:43.020 And that's what we do inside the Iron Council.

00:31:45.740 And the truth is this, another year is slipping away.

00:31:49.260 We're middle of November.

00:31:51.160 We've got 40-ish days left.

00:31:53.440 You can watch it disappear like all of the other people that are full of good intentions,

00:31:58.960 but haven't really built the results.

00:32:02.060 Or you can draw a hard line in the sand right now.

00:32:05.000 You can join the Iron Council before the year ends.

00:32:07.060 It's not because you need another program or motivational video or rah-rah speech,

00:32:12.000 but because you know that you want to do more and you need to be around men who are doing more.

00:32:16.960 I hope you feel that.

00:32:18.480 And I hope that you have a desire to rebuild or build maybe even for the first time

00:32:23.900 the discipline that's within you, ambition, surrounding yourself by men who live the same code.

00:32:29.300 That all takes place in the Iron Council.

00:32:31.160 We'd love to see you there before the end of the year.

00:32:33.160 We're open for enrollment right now until the end of the year.

00:32:36.060 So check it out.

00:32:36.860 Go to orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

00:32:40.120 That's orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

00:32:42.940 This is the moment where you can stop drifting, but you have to do it.

00:32:47.140 You have to take the first step.

00:32:48.600 Again, orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

00:32:51.120 Do that after my conversation.

00:32:52.700 Let's get back to it.

00:32:55.540 Right, right.

00:32:57.240 How do you practice this idea of recrafting your stories?

00:33:02.060 Or at a minimum, just being aware of the fact that they are indeed stories.

00:33:07.160 Are there exercises?

00:33:08.620 Are there practices?

00:33:09.680 What does that look like?

00:33:11.560 Yeah, it's a great question.

00:33:13.480 You know, one thing that I've tried to adopt in my life is this notion of anything that I want to change.

00:33:19.700 And I believe James Clear talks about this too in Atomic Habits.

00:33:23.700 I could be wrong, but I believe he does.

00:33:25.460 Anything that I want to change, whether it's my fitness, my health, my communication, my stories, I need to first be aware of them.

00:33:32.300 Which means I need to track them.

00:33:34.840 I need to track them somewhere.

00:33:36.340 I need to log them somewhere.

00:33:38.400 It doesn't need to be complicated.

00:33:39.960 You can start with the Notes app on your phone, a Google Doc.

00:33:42.500 Sometimes people get really overwhelmed with the tools.

00:33:46.160 How do I got to use Notion?

00:33:47.420 Should I use this?

00:33:48.100 I'm like, oh my God, just begin.

00:33:50.340 How about you just begin?

00:33:52.140 Dude, yeah.

00:33:53.520 And I got a little love-hate relationship with Notion too.

00:33:57.040 So anyways, to answer your question, I would say first become aware of them by just logging them.

00:34:03.380 So that's number one.

00:34:04.460 You want to just start being aware of them because there's some magic that happens when we write things down.

00:34:12.120 Instead of it just being this vague notion or this idea, you lose track of how often these things are occurring.

00:34:19.180 But when you write them down, now there's evidence.

00:34:22.260 Now you see them.

00:34:24.120 Now there's no debate.

00:34:25.420 It's objective.

00:34:27.220 There's no room for interpretation.

00:34:29.220 This is what happened.

00:34:30.880 So that's number one, logging the stories, becoming critically aware of them.

00:34:34.460 And then number two is auditing those stories by asking yourself, what facts do I have that back up these stories?

00:34:46.420 What facts?

00:34:47.520 Facts are objective.

00:34:49.100 So-and-so said this to me.

00:34:51.380 That's a fact.

00:34:52.780 So-and-so looked at me this way and therefore it must mean X, Y, Z.

00:34:56.600 That's not a fact, dude.

00:34:58.040 That's a story.

00:34:58.720 You made that up.

00:34:59.940 You made that up.

00:35:00.960 So just even as a simple example, but that's something that happens all the time.

00:35:04.180 And we all do this consciously.

00:35:05.860 We have to because we can't conserve.

00:35:07.520 We have to conserve our cognitive energy.

00:35:09.180 We can't just keep going.

00:35:10.580 We can't.

00:35:11.340 It's not realistic to do this forever, but you need to do it for a certain period of time in order to create transformation and change the trajectory of the way you look at the world.

00:35:19.940 But let me tell you, Ryan, there's no bigger ROI than investing in your self-development when it comes to how you look at the world.

00:35:30.080 This is literally life-changing because it gives you inner peace.

00:35:34.420 And I don't know many more things that can give you high value than inner peace.

00:35:41.560 I had an example of this over the weekend.

00:35:47.420 I was presenting at a men's event in St. Louis, and there was a guy sitting in the first row, and he looked so stern.

00:35:55.920 He looked like I probably look when I'm concentrating, but he looked so stern.

00:35:59.100 He looked mad.

00:35:59.860 He looked like he didn't want to be there, and I was just, like, bound and determined to win this guy over.

00:36:05.160 And he didn't crack the entire time, but I will say he was attentive the entire time, and I thought, oh, man, something's going on with this guy.

00:36:13.520 Maybe he didn't enjoy the presentation, whatever.

00:36:16.600 Anyways, he came up to me after the event and talked to me about a little bit about what he was dealing with, which was some very heavy stuff, and he was so grateful for the words that I shared.

00:36:28.480 And in my head, even during the presentation, I'm thinking, this guy's not getting any value.

00:36:33.400 He doesn't appreciate the message.

00:36:34.800 He's not into this thing, and I almost considered trying to, like, shift energy to get him on board or bought in.

00:36:42.160 He already was.

00:36:43.140 I just misinterpreted his level of concentration on what it is I was addressing.

00:36:48.680 Yeah, that's interesting.

00:36:51.080 How long was he having this stone-cold face when you guys – when you were presenting and you saw him in a total of –

00:36:57.380 An hour.

00:36:58.120 No way.

00:36:58.900 An hour.

00:36:59.840 The entire hour.

00:37:01.100 I'm not even sure he moved, but he just sat there like a statue and just piercing eyes in a stern look.

00:37:10.160 What is going on here?

00:37:11.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:37:11.940 No, that would have tripped up most people, Ryan.

00:37:13.580 Good for you that you had the patience and the resolve to sort of just take a step back.

00:37:17.200 You know, it's interesting you say that because there's just two sides to every story.

00:37:23.040 There just really is.

00:37:23.900 You know, it's so easy to think that your side of the story is the only way to look at things, and this kind of goes back to what we were just saying.

00:37:30.460 But just in terms of creating change as fast as possible is just remind yourself there's always two ways to look at something.

00:37:42.340 Always.

00:37:42.860 And in the realm of communication, especially when it comes to hard conversations, difficult conversations, things you want to critique someone on, one of my best pieces of advice is don't do it through text or email.

00:37:58.540 Do it through a phone call.

00:38:00.060 Do it through Zoom.

00:38:00.900 Do it through face-to-face.

00:38:01.920 It's so easy to just pick up the phone, boom, send the text.

00:38:05.060 But what we're talking about is everything can be interpreted a certain way.

00:38:10.080 You don't know my tone if I say something to you and your mood that they – the stories Ryan has changes the way you interpret my message.

00:38:20.120 So even – again, just taking it back, don't have serious conversations through text.

00:38:24.620 Sometimes I work with people and they're like, oh, you know, I'm going to give feedback to so-and-so.

00:38:27.540 Let me do it through email because I can collect my thoughts.

00:38:29.780 I'm like, yeah, I hear you.

00:38:32.060 But you don't know how they're going to receive it.

00:38:35.060 You're not there to see their facial expressions when they receive it.

00:38:40.980 Most importantly, you're not improving.

00:38:43.720 You think you're improving.

00:38:45.740 That's another mask.

00:38:47.160 You're just putting a little Band-Aid on yourself.

00:38:48.980 You are avoiding the discomfort.

00:38:52.360 But the discomfort is where we grow.

00:38:55.660 With most things in life, the discomfort, that's where you grow.

00:38:59.840 So you should be – me, I try to aggressively seek discomfort.

00:39:05.540 I try to do new things all the time that I've never done.

00:39:07.280 I'm just like, let me just do this.

00:39:08.940 I run social experience all day long.

00:39:11.440 Let me say it this way.

00:39:12.400 Let me try this.

00:39:13.440 Let me change this word.

00:39:14.840 Let me see how they react.

00:39:15.840 I just – I look for it because I want to improve.

00:39:19.400 I want to become the best paion that I can be.

00:39:21.780 I want to reach my maximum potential.

00:39:23.420 I don't want to look back and have regrets.

00:39:24.720 So I look for it because I just know it's something I've realized that looking for comfort doesn't really help you.

00:39:33.300 We as humans evolved as a species by going through discomfort.

00:39:39.340 Everything about you and your success has gone through that discomfort.

00:39:42.820 My guess is, Ryan, that first time you recorded a podcast probably weren't as calm as you are now.

00:39:47.460 Probably were a little bit uncomfortable.

00:39:49.200 Probably a little bit nervous.

00:39:50.220 A lot uncomfortable.

00:39:51.900 Now look at you, bro.

00:39:52.460 You're a pro, right?

00:39:53.300 You're so calm.

00:39:54.300 You're so poised.

00:39:55.060 You're so reserved, so grounded.

00:39:57.460 How did you get there?

00:39:58.940 By just feeling it, marinating in that silence, marinating in that exposure therapy of this is what it feels like.

00:40:06.420 All right.

00:40:06.960 Cool.

00:40:08.460 All right.

00:40:09.540 You know what?

00:40:10.760 Not that bad.

00:40:12.140 Not that bad.

00:40:13.040 Do it again.

00:40:13.960 Do it again.

00:40:14.780 Do it again.

00:40:17.060 Do you feel like men avoid some of these difficult conversations?

00:40:21.380 You know, you talk about sending a text or sending an email and not doing it in person because they're worried that they might get walked over or their mind might be not necessarily changed, but they might be convinced to take a course of action that they did not initially want to take.

00:40:43.400 I don't know if I would say that's 100% accurate.

00:40:46.600 It could be in some scenarios.

00:40:47.940 I would say it's more so they are worried about having others dislike them and it changing the relationship and therefore disrupting the harmony at the workplace.

00:41:02.660 So they take the L.

00:41:05.840 They take the loss.

00:41:08.220 See, that's a lot of things.

00:41:09.960 That's something a lot of people don't realize is that they're avoiding it thinking that this is the safer, more conservative, better option.

00:41:21.260 But really, in most scenarios, inaction is worse than action.

00:41:29.060 Inaction is worse than action, right?

00:41:31.100 And we don't think about that sometimes.

00:41:33.040 Or at least I didn't early on.

00:41:35.420 And so I would say it's more so that they fear how the other person is going to respond and how it's going to therefore change the relationship.

00:41:43.420 And, you know, hard conversations are hard for everybody.

00:41:45.320 Like, that's not something we're born with, right?

00:41:49.520 It's not an easy skill to develop.

00:41:52.580 That's something you really got to practice.

00:41:54.000 That's one of the things I work with my clients on is how to have that conversation, how to set a good intention from the beginning so things are good, things are smooth.

00:42:00.560 And we role play it, we practice it, because you have to learn that skill of, whether it's a personal relationship, a workplace relationship, conversation with your boss, there's going to be things you don't agree on.

00:42:15.800 And you have two options.

00:42:18.260 Option one, you do nothing.

00:42:19.800 But then there's resentment.

00:42:21.840 Then there's anger in you.

00:42:24.580 You are on the lost side of the ledger.

00:42:27.080 You may think there's no price.

00:42:28.740 There's a price.

00:42:29.440 There's a price.

00:42:30.560 You're paying in peace.

00:42:33.120 And some people have been paying it for decades or their entire life.

00:42:36.900 Second option, you work through that discomfort.

00:42:40.220 You practice.

00:42:41.260 You experiment.

00:42:42.780 You see, well, the worst case scenario, the worst case scenario, they don't really like me for a few minutes.

00:42:49.240 They don't like me for a moment.

00:42:52.020 As long as you approach it intelligently from a calm place, from a structured way, you're going to be fine.

00:42:59.840 But people don't calculate the cost of doing nothing.

00:43:02.440 I think that's a really good point.

00:43:05.780 This is one of the common symptoms of the quote-unquote nice guy.

00:43:09.720 And everything's fine and harmonious until the nice guy feels like he's been walked all over just one too many times.

00:43:17.440 Or his level of discontent or feeling disrespected or feeling overlooked tips over that boiling point.

00:43:26.140 And then it becomes violent and extreme and just a complete mess and bad things happen when nice guys reach their limit.

00:43:36.760 Yeah, yeah.

00:43:37.720 I think this is a perfect segue for me to bring in a movie example, Ryan.

00:43:41.100 Have you seen Joker 1?

00:43:45.100 Do you recall?

00:43:46.980 Joaquin Phoenix?

00:43:47.840 I've seen Joaquin Phoenix.

00:43:49.380 I've seen parts of it.

00:43:51.440 I don't think I watched the entire thing.

00:43:52.840 Okay, don't worry.

00:43:53.380 Don't worry.

00:43:53.780 It's all good.

00:43:54.300 There's basically a shift though that happens where he's this quote-unquote nice guy.

00:44:00.040 He does what everybody asks.

00:44:02.600 Then he, I won't spoil the movie in case someone hasn't seen it.

00:44:05.740 Something happens and he snaps.

00:44:09.500 And he goes from one extreme to a complete other extreme.

00:44:14.720 And it's just, you know, you said it.

00:44:17.260 I mean, it's crazy.

00:44:17.840 People, they don't even realize that they're doing it.

00:44:20.380 That is the price of holding things in.

00:44:23.780 I tell my parents, I tell my friends all the time.

00:44:25.540 I'm like, I don't want to live that way anymore.

00:44:27.620 I just don't want to live it.

00:44:28.160 I don't want to live this life holding things in anymore.

00:44:31.920 Now, that doesn't mean I bring up every little critique and disappointment and frustration all the time.

00:44:36.640 Of course not.

00:44:37.360 Of course not.

00:44:38.000 There's got to be balance, just like with everything.

00:44:40.520 But if something, this is sort of the rule of thumb that I use, is if it becomes a pattern behavior,

00:44:48.680 then I will consider having a conversation with someone.

00:44:53.060 It's a one thing, a one-off thing.

00:44:54.940 I let it go.

00:44:55.600 Because we're all human.

00:44:56.420 We're going to make mistakes.

00:44:57.460 Friends are going to disappoint us.

00:44:59.280 Family members are going to disappoint us.

00:45:00.880 People are going to be late.

00:45:01.720 I am extremely punctual, almost to a fault.

00:45:05.300 All my friends know that about me.

00:45:06.500 I will be there one minute earlier, always.

00:45:10.340 That doesn't help me sometimes because it gives me some anxiety.

00:45:14.040 But they know that.

00:45:14.660 I cannot, therefore, expect all my friends to think like me, but I used to.

00:45:20.620 I used to.

00:45:22.320 And so these are some of the things that I've just had to do the inner work on.

00:45:25.020 Audit myself.

00:45:25.780 My stories.

00:45:26.580 Wait a second.

00:45:27.200 Well, maybe they live their life a different way.

00:45:29.180 Maybe they don't see it the way I do.

00:45:30.680 Maybe they don't really care about being on time.

00:45:33.800 That's up to them.

00:45:34.520 Who am I to say how they should live?

00:45:38.740 I think one of the things that's helped me most, the mindset that's helped me the most,

00:45:43.100 is that we often have these expectations of others.

00:45:48.280 And that's what you're talking about here.

00:45:49.320 Because I'm on time.

00:45:50.180 They need to be on time.

00:45:51.200 Expectations of others.

00:45:52.340 Rather than just focusing on personal standards, which is I'm punctual.

00:45:56.260 I'm on time.

00:45:57.600 What I do has no bearing in what other people do.

00:46:01.080 And what other people do has no relevancy or base in what I do.

00:46:05.700 Drop the expectations of others.

00:46:07.980 Maintain personal standards.

00:46:09.660 And let it fall where it may.

00:46:11.420 Yeah.

00:46:11.640 And recognize that these qualities that you possess are great qualities.

00:46:14.360 You know?

00:46:14.800 Yeah.

00:46:15.080 I think it was.

00:46:15.820 Absolutely.

00:46:16.180 I think it was the Slack co-founder who said, make the implicit explicit.

00:46:22.440 I love that phrase.

00:46:23.560 It's so concise, but so crystal clear.

00:46:26.080 I believe it's just part of their culture now.

00:46:28.300 Don't hold the things in.

00:46:29.380 Say it.

00:46:30.460 Expectations are dangerous.

00:46:31.600 Almost like assumptions.

00:46:33.120 Assumptions and expectations can destroy relationships.

00:46:36.140 They literally can.

00:46:37.360 And so you're right.

00:46:38.480 I mean, expectations, it's poison.

00:46:42.420 And if it does, if you do have an expectation, you got to bring it up.

00:46:47.120 People are not mind readers.

00:46:48.640 People are not mind readers.

00:46:50.100 You know?

00:46:50.400 And this is.

00:46:51.560 But then here's the problem.

00:46:52.680 They're afraid to bring it up because they haven't worked through the practice of bringing

00:46:57.960 up something that bothers them.

00:46:59.320 And so now we are in this cyclical loop of avoiding conversations, mismatched expectations.

00:47:07.280 Ah, no wonder.

00:47:08.200 No wonder divorces happen.

00:47:10.560 No wonder friendships end.

00:47:12.280 I'm not saying that's the cure all for everything.

00:47:13.960 Of course not.

00:47:14.620 I'd be silly to think that.

00:47:16.180 But could be a big reason.

00:47:18.300 You talk about the proper mindsets and how so many men are lacking the mindsets when

00:47:31.420 it comes to effective communication.

00:47:33.040 I think we've talked about some of those, you know, the mindset of controlling what you

00:47:37.500 can control, learning to rewire or reframe your stories.

00:47:41.740 What are some other mindsets that a man ought to adopt in order to be a more effective communicator?

00:47:48.300 I kind of mentioned this earlier, but I'll mention it again, maybe a little more in depth.

00:47:56.420 And that is experiment like a scientist would run little tests socially or from a confidence

00:48:06.240 perspective to start seeing that, OK, this worked well.

00:48:11.200 This didn't work well.

00:48:12.620 This was a good move.

00:48:14.160 This wasn't.

00:48:14.800 Over time, you'll maybe create your own frameworks of how to live your life and how to make yourself

00:48:22.080 comfortable, more confident in scenarios.

00:48:24.240 That's one option.

00:48:25.620 Another option is just to remember.

00:48:28.700 We're all human, you know, and sometimes we put people on a pedestal because of a title,

00:48:35.040 a reputation, a certain status.

00:48:40.000 But when you bring it down to a primal level, you can even just it's it's silly.

00:48:47.920 Sometimes I'll just think to myself, I'm like, do they use the bathroom?

00:48:50.760 Do they take a shit?

00:48:52.220 They do.

00:48:53.460 Then they're human like me.

00:48:57.280 Just like that.

00:48:58.280 Just oh, wait a second.

00:48:59.420 They do.

00:49:00.280 They're human.

00:49:00.700 Not to say that I'm better than them, but that doesn't make them better than me either.

00:49:05.600 And when you bring it down to that primal level, you're just reminding yourself like

00:49:08.860 at the end of the day, at the end of the day, we're literally all human.

00:49:12.300 That's it.

00:49:12.920 We're all human.

00:49:14.680 These are all status games.

00:49:15.920 So pick your poison.

00:49:17.880 You can go you can go funny, comedic with do they use the bathroom or you can go with

00:49:22.200 the scientist hat.

00:49:23.580 Let me let me try things out experimentally.

00:49:26.140 Let me see.

00:49:26.820 Let me see what works.

00:49:27.500 What, uh, what would you say about, well, let me give you an example.

00:49:36.380 So when I started podcasting, uh, I would write out 10 questions that I wanted to ask

00:49:42.120 my guest and I would rattle through those 10 questions and I'd ask question number one,

00:49:48.240 they'd give me an answer.

00:49:48.960 And then I'd move to question number two, they give me an answer and so on and so forth.

00:49:52.440 The problem I, I began to feel like pretty quickly, I wasn't doing my audience any favors

00:49:57.300 by doing it that way.

00:49:58.380 And I wasn't honoring my guest by doing it that way because they would answer a question

00:50:03.440 that I could have went really deep on.

00:50:05.640 But because I had a script in front of me, I couldn't do that because I had constrained

00:50:10.160 myself to going to question number two.

00:50:13.280 And one of the things that I hear you talk often about is not having having scripts.

00:50:18.520 But how do you make sure that when you're either presenting in a professional setting,

00:50:24.640 for example, or even just need to have a challenging or difficult conversation that you cover everything

00:50:31.720 that wants to, that you want to have covered and you maintain the composure that you want

00:50:37.820 to maintain?

00:50:38.360 Yeah.

00:50:40.240 So you're asking essentially, how do you, how do you ensure that you can continue the

00:50:43.820 conversation smoothly without sounding like a robot while ensuring you cover all the bullet

00:50:49.440 points of what you want to talk about or get out of the podcast, right?

00:50:52.620 Okay.

00:50:53.080 So yes, correct.

00:50:54.000 So I have this method and it is a method, but, but it's not, you only need to use this for

00:50:58.380 a certain period and then it just becomes habitual.

00:50:59.860 It's called zoom flow.

00:51:00.940 Okay.

00:51:01.260 And so for example, your last two sentences, you said presenting, you said difficult, you

00:51:07.560 said professional zoom flow is this idea of, all right, well, I could pick any one of those

00:51:13.800 keywords as I like to call them.

00:51:15.460 And I can either zoom in or zoom out.

00:51:18.040 I can zoom in and be like, what type of presentation are you talking about?

00:51:21.680 What kind of, what do you mean exactly?

00:51:23.560 So I'll go really detailed or I could zoom out.

00:51:25.600 Huh?

00:51:25.760 Interesting, right?

00:51:26.340 So do you give a lot of presentations?

00:51:28.100 You like being in front of crowds.

00:51:29.460 So I'll go micro or macro zoom in or zoom out on any of the words.

00:51:33.360 And when you start doing this, you'll start to realize like, wow, I actually have more

00:51:39.560 control sometimes than the person asking me the questions because I can guide the conversation

00:51:45.860 where I want.

00:51:46.800 It's just a matter of practicing and going to whichever word you want to go to.

00:51:52.780 So this is going to allow you to stay composed while also guiding.

00:51:55.580 Well, wait a second.

00:51:56.100 I'm talking to Piam.

00:51:57.220 Do I want to talk about presentations?

00:51:58.860 Do I want to talk about difficult conversations?

00:52:01.040 Do I want to talk about professional relationships, professional communication?

00:52:05.620 Just like that.

00:52:06.520 Just finding those words, going in or out, and then letting it flow.

00:52:10.920 Because I will say, you know, you're excellent at what you do now.

00:52:14.780 But you can tell when someone is not comfortable with conversations.

00:52:24.240 You can tell it's very.

00:52:25.460 Oh, yeah.

00:52:26.340 Yeah.

00:52:26.560 You know, I was a software engineer for about four years.

00:52:28.740 And that's something I noticed with a lot of engineers is, you know, they're with a computer

00:52:32.660 all day long.

00:52:33.680 There's no knock to that.

00:52:34.780 I also am an I am a big time nerd, too.

00:52:38.320 But if you're with the computer all day long, therefore, you are not with humans all day

00:52:43.040 long.

00:52:43.260 So you got you got to make it up in some way.

00:52:46.420 And one of the quickest way and I'm kind of going on a tangent here is take off.

00:52:50.680 This is this is another pet peeve of mine.

00:52:52.960 Take off the damn headphones, bro.

00:52:54.700 Take off your stupid white airpods.

00:52:57.820 Let people talk to you.

00:52:59.720 You want to get better?

00:53:01.700 Be approachable.

00:53:03.780 You don't need to wear them all day long at work, at the gym, from your commute.

00:53:10.080 No wonder you're not getting better.

00:53:14.920 You're you're blocking people by design.

00:53:19.980 So there you go.

00:53:21.840 That's that is interesting, because I try when I'm at the gym, I try not to wear my

00:53:28.840 earbuds or I will do this sometimes.

00:53:31.020 I'll wear one.

00:53:32.040 I never wear both.

00:53:32.960 Oh, interesting.

00:53:33.800 Right.

00:53:34.280 Even right now, I'm not.

00:53:35.400 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:53:35.920 I usually will just wear one because a little bit of that, like I still want to be engaged

00:53:41.400 and present and what's going on, but I might need to listen to something or research something.

00:53:45.860 There's another tactic, I guess you could call it strategy.

00:53:51.200 I don't know what you would call it, but that I've used that has been helpful in my

00:53:55.240 ability to communicate.

00:53:56.120 And that's just a disagreement statement.

00:53:58.360 So maybe you say something.

00:54:00.480 I might come back and say, hey, Payam, you know, I don't entirely agree with that.

00:54:05.260 And here's why.

00:54:06.540 What do you think?

00:54:07.840 And that disagreement state, that's really hard.

00:54:10.400 That's been hard for me to develop.

00:54:11.720 But that has the ability to drive such a powerful conversation if people can use it respectfully

00:54:18.340 and effectively.

00:54:19.460 Yeah.

00:54:19.780 What do you call that?

00:54:21.440 Framework theory principle, whatever you want to.

00:54:23.400 Just a disagreement statement.

00:54:25.640 But I do it softly.

00:54:27.360 Not like, oh, you're wrong because you're an idiot.

00:54:29.680 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:54:31.140 It's, hey, I don't entirely agree with that.

00:54:33.580 And here's why.

00:54:34.480 What do you think?

00:54:35.120 Yeah, the statement you're wrong is not a good way to build relationships, not a good

00:54:38.920 way to connect with folks.

00:54:39.600 Right.

00:54:39.840 But I love, first off, love the method.

00:54:43.120 I may use that exactly verbatim how you said it.

00:54:45.700 So I'll get back to you when I run my social experiments.

00:54:48.640 Let me know.

00:54:49.240 Let me know how it goes.

00:54:50.380 We'll do.

00:54:50.900 But the key thing that you said that I was like, ah, Brian knows what he's doing, is

00:54:55.500 then you, at the end, what do you think?

00:54:59.280 What's your perspective?

00:55:00.420 How do you see this?

00:55:01.640 Because most people in conflict scenarios or situations, they don't ask for the other

00:55:06.500 side of the story.

00:55:08.700 They assume, this again, this goes back, they just assume their way is the only way.

00:55:12.440 My way or the highway is the lonely way.

00:55:15.640 So kudos for you for using that method and also having the awareness that maybe that's

00:55:20.860 something you didn't do and that you should do better and you're taking stock of the other.

00:55:26.200 Dude, we need to be able to have conversations.

00:55:30.040 We need to be able to have friendly debates.

00:55:32.980 We're not going to agree on everything.

00:55:34.540 That's okay.

00:55:36.320 Let's make it okay to have disagreements.

00:55:40.140 You know?

00:55:40.860 Unfortunately, sometimes it's, we don't say anything or we become like the Joker and we

00:55:46.340 go extreme.

00:55:47.300 We go psycho.

00:55:48.480 And then you just lash out and you just go crazy.

00:55:50.940 And then you kill the relationships.

00:55:52.920 We got to make it okay.

00:55:54.340 Just by using the technique that you share, just by asking the other side, how do you

00:55:58.060 see it?

00:55:59.040 Because they'll probably share something you didn't factor in.

00:56:03.680 Yeah.

00:56:04.100 They'll give you more insight and more context.

00:56:06.180 And then you think, oh, you see it this way because you had a horrific experience when

00:56:10.600 you were a child and it changed the way that you view the world.

00:56:13.920 Got it.

00:56:14.540 I wasn't aware of that before.

00:56:16.000 Yeah.

00:56:16.220 That makes sense to me.

00:56:17.400 Yeah.

00:56:17.560 I might feel the same way if I was in your shoes.

00:56:19.740 Yeah.

00:56:20.500 Yeah.

00:56:20.840 There's a, there's a story.

00:56:22.920 It's known as the subway story.

00:56:25.280 There was a man on a subway.

00:56:26.820 I don't know if it was the New York subway or what it was, but he was on a subway with

00:56:30.980 his kids and the kids were being really rowdy.

00:56:33.900 They were just, you know, I don't know if you've ever been on a subway or train, but you know,

00:56:37.180 they'll just be rowdy.

00:56:38.060 They're loud.

00:56:38.580 And you know, when you're getting off of work, you could be tired.

00:56:41.200 You just want to chill.

00:56:42.280 Maybe you don't have, maybe you don't have your AirPods because you listened to this podcast.

00:56:45.780 And so you're just chilling and these kids are, are, are bothering you.

00:56:48.680 And there was a guy on the subway and he was getting annoyed by the kids.

00:56:51.980 So he went up to the father and he was like, Hey, can you get your kids?

00:56:56.960 Can you get them under control?

00:56:58.240 They're making a lot of noise.

00:56:58.980 They're disrupting all the passengers.

00:57:01.140 The father kind of wakes up from a daze and he says, Oh, you know what?

00:57:04.220 I didn't even notice.

00:57:05.760 We just came back from the hospital.

00:57:07.940 Their mom passed away.

00:57:09.580 And this is how they're processing the loss.

00:57:12.080 That person went from anger, frustration, anoints, self-compassion or compassion for him and what's

00:57:21.300 going on.

00:57:21.900 Sure.

00:57:22.180 Right.

00:57:22.400 Just I've been in that scenario.

00:57:25.140 Again, going back to the, to the gym store, someone cuts me off.

00:57:27.840 Someone says something, someone reacts a certain way.

00:57:30.080 We don't know the other side unless we ask.

00:57:33.020 Yeah, I think it definitely develops empathy and care for other people.

00:57:41.200 And even some of those disagreement statements, um, that those also build trust.

00:57:45.920 I've noticed because successful people, which is the type of people, most of us listening to this

00:57:52.000 podcast want to be around admire courage and they want to be around other people with a backbone

00:57:58.540 and with a spine and who are willing to stand up for themselves or share ideas that might be

00:58:03.800 controversial.

00:58:04.880 And every one of us runs around tiptoeing and walking around on eggshells so as not to offend

00:58:10.180 anybody.

00:58:10.840 And there's a way to do it, I think, but man, if you can disagree respectfully, high caliber

00:58:17.120 people are going to respect that.

00:58:19.600 Yeah.

00:58:20.400 Well said.

00:58:21.240 I mean, it's very similar to just having strong boundaries, right?

00:58:24.160 Or just being honest, right?

00:58:25.680 Like sometimes conflict makes the friendship or relationship stronger.

00:58:29.680 I would say more often than not, it does make it stronger because now you really, truly

00:58:33.120 know how both of you feel.

00:58:34.520 I don't know at this age, I'm 40.

00:58:36.380 I don't know at this age, I want to have friendships or relationships where I can't be honest because

00:58:41.140 then that's not true to me.

00:58:42.700 That's fake.

00:58:43.820 This goes back to my whole philosophy of living life.

00:58:45.940 I don't want to wear the mask anymore.

00:58:47.400 I just don't want to wear it.

00:58:48.820 So I want to be able to be honest with you.

00:58:50.560 If that bothers you, maybe this relationship, friendship, whatever you want to call it.

00:58:55.660 It isn't what I thought it was.

00:58:57.260 So I rather run the risk of being who I am, be honest, than play a game with you and wear

00:59:05.380 a mask and try to breathe somebody that I'm not.

00:59:07.560 I just can't do that.

00:59:08.780 And it seems like you see it the same way because we have to be able to communicate, even if

00:59:14.880 it's tough, even if there's a disagreement, even if we don't see eye to eye.

00:59:19.400 We don't evolve as a species.

00:59:21.820 We don't get better personally unless we develop this skill.

00:59:27.640 Yeah.

00:59:28.380 Well, I want to pivot gears just briefly.

00:59:31.720 What's your take on small talk?

00:59:33.980 I used to be so anti-small talk.

00:59:37.220 I don't want to hear about the weather.

00:59:38.560 I don't want to talk about the game.

00:59:39.860 I don't want to chit chat.

00:59:41.060 And I've reversed that thinking because to me, it's the small talk that allows for the

00:59:46.160 bigger talk.

00:59:47.180 But you have to break that ice somehow.

00:59:49.220 I'm really curious what you have to say about it.

00:59:51.620 Yeah.

00:59:52.300 You know, I got mixed feelings towards it.

00:59:56.240 For the most part, I'm in agreement with you.

00:59:58.700 It is necessary because if you just go and go straight to the matter, straight to the deal,

01:00:05.580 the transaction, then you're no different than chat GPT.

01:00:08.300 We got to connect as humans.

01:00:11.760 And so that's where the small talk is.

01:00:13.880 Now, yeah, it can be a little redundant.

01:00:16.040 It could be a little bit fakie.

01:00:18.660 It could be a little bit unnecessary at times.

01:00:22.360 But sometimes you discover things you didn't know.

01:00:25.220 Like I'll have sometimes talked with people and I'll ask them, you know, I had a call yesterday

01:00:30.220 with someone who may be a client.

01:00:32.880 He lives in Wisconsin.

01:00:34.120 How's the weather in Wisconsin?

01:00:35.880 Right.

01:00:36.020 Maybe he says something that I'm like, oh, wow, I didn't know that sunny this time of

01:00:39.140 the year.

01:00:39.480 Huh.

01:00:40.420 Maybe I'll take a trip.

01:00:41.400 You know, I'm just making that up.

01:00:42.160 But what I'm saying is you discover things.

01:00:46.120 That maybe you'd never knew through small talk.

01:00:49.280 So what I would suggest, and I know you're not asking me necessarily, but is going into

01:00:53.720 it from a lens of curiosity as opposed to, ah, there you go again.

01:00:59.560 You're in the elevator.

01:01:00.480 Got to talk about something.

01:01:02.440 Maybe there's something you can learn, something you can be curious about.

01:01:05.180 All of a sudden that changes the game.

01:01:06.380 The elevator is such an interesting proving ground or testing ground for conversations,

01:01:14.380 right?

01:01:14.600 Because the social norm is everybody goes to the corner and we don't, we pretend like

01:01:20.180 they're not in the elevator.

01:01:21.440 Look the other way.

01:01:22.680 You know, don't ask them.

01:01:24.380 It is such a powerful place to be able to strike up conversations.

01:01:28.320 I feel like if you could do it there, you could do it anywhere.

01:01:31.320 Mm-hmm.

01:01:31.860 Mm-hmm.

01:01:32.280 Yeah, no, definitely.

01:01:33.300 It is, you know, in these days, most people now are not even, they're avoiding you, but

01:01:39.420 they're also looking at their phone.

01:01:41.460 So now you have another barrier to get over, which is, do I want to disrupt them?

01:01:45.720 And then if they're wearing their headphones, then that's the trifecta.

01:01:47.880 Then you don't even know what to do.

01:01:49.180 Then you just, no wonder, no wonder people aren't making conversations.

01:01:51.740 But I agree, especially because elevators are usually 30 seconds or one minute.

01:01:55.560 If you're able to have some type of value conversation or start a conversation and then

01:02:01.860 end it, yes, great, great point.

01:02:04.040 I mean, in terms of experimentation, practicing, that's a great testing ground.

01:02:09.460 Great testing ground.

01:02:10.280 Or even cocktail parties.

01:02:11.960 You know, you pass by someone on the street walking towards you.

01:02:15.300 You only have a few seconds maybe to chit-chat to make a conversation because they're going

01:02:18.880 somewhere.

01:02:20.020 You're going somewhere.

01:02:21.240 There is testing ground everywhere.

01:02:24.120 You just got to want it.

01:02:25.080 You just got to look for it.

01:02:26.420 It's there though.

01:02:27.680 The question is, are you going to take it?

01:02:29.240 Are you going to, are you going to practice it?

01:02:33.260 And I mean, the reason I wanted to have you on the podcast is because if I just wish more

01:02:38.620 people knew that if you took those little moments to try to test your ability to communicate

01:02:42.500 and become better at it, you're going to get more dates.

01:02:45.560 If you're in the dating space, you're going to get more clients.

01:02:47.980 If you're trying to build your practice, you're going to get more promotions.

01:02:52.120 You're going to get hired more frequently.

01:02:53.800 Better opportunities are going to present themselves.

01:02:55.840 You're going to have more friends.

01:02:56.960 I mean, the list goes on and on and on if you can do this effectively.

01:03:00.580 Yeah.

01:03:01.320 Well said.

01:03:01.980 Well said.

01:03:02.540 Peace of mind as well.

01:03:03.760 Confidence.

01:03:04.300 I mean, what's the point of working so much if you can't be calm inside?

01:03:07.880 If you don't feel good inside?

01:03:08.920 If you're ruminating about problems week after week after week, that doesn't seem like a happy

01:03:13.460 life to me.

01:03:14.040 And yeah, it benefits you personally and professionally.

01:03:17.420 I think it's one of the great, I think communication, communication and confidence kind of go hand

01:03:22.280 in hand.

01:03:22.600 Like I said, I legitimately believe Ryan, it is a superpower.

01:03:27.300 Yes, you can work on your fitness.

01:03:31.620 You can become strong.

01:03:33.580 That doesn't necessarily translate to a lot of benefit with others, though.

01:03:40.220 Yeah, you look in the mirror, you feel good.

01:03:41.920 And yes, maybe you are a little more confident.

01:03:43.480 I'm not denying the benefits of health.

01:03:44.680 Of course not.

01:03:45.300 But what I'm saying is in the interest of getting along, communicating with others, that

01:03:49.460 is the superpower.

01:03:50.160 I think it's the superpower we all have and we can get better at.

01:03:54.380 Yeah.

01:03:55.220 Well, Payam, one of the things I wanted to tell you, I think one of the genius things

01:03:59.880 that you do on your Instagram page is where you critique movie characters, popular movie

01:04:05.180 characters, and you tell us why it works.

01:04:08.420 What about their character?

01:04:09.700 What about their demeanor?

01:04:10.940 What about their communication style?

01:04:13.180 Can we emulate?

01:04:14.380 And I just wanted to tell you, I really enjoy those because I know there are extreme examples

01:04:19.320 that are portrayed in acting and multiple takes and everything else, but it really gives

01:04:23.800 us an idea of how we might better want to show up as men so that we can package our

01:04:30.020 communication style in a way that's received in a certain way by the people that we care

01:04:33.520 about.

01:04:33.800 I just wanted to tell you that.

01:04:34.720 I really enjoy those.

01:04:35.600 Thank you.

01:04:35.940 Thank you, man.

01:04:36.360 I appreciate it.

01:04:36.880 I mean, that means a lot to me.

01:04:38.160 It's yeah, it's fun for me to make.

01:04:40.040 It seems to be resonating with folks and you know what you're right.

01:04:44.320 Certain situations, they can be extreme, but I'd rather look at movies that inspire

01:04:49.100 me, that get me motivated.

01:04:50.720 Then look at some boring HR videos that we all were forced to watch at some company.

01:04:56.020 No doubt.

01:04:56.460 Yeah.

01:04:56.640 Now all day long, because movies can inspire us.

01:04:59.820 They can get us emotionally riled up.

01:05:02.200 They can make us feel good.

01:05:03.480 We can look up to a James Bond.

01:05:05.060 We can look up to a Batman.

01:05:06.700 We can look up to a Pierce Brosnan.

01:05:08.040 We can look up to these characters and it feels good.

01:05:11.660 We have, we now have a mentor.

01:05:13.320 We now have some goal, a visual goal.

01:05:15.980 It's fun.

01:05:16.960 Let's make education fun.

01:05:18.020 So I appreciate you mentioning that, man.

01:05:19.180 Thank you.

01:05:19.460 That means a lot.

01:05:21.540 Tell the guys where to connect with you.

01:05:23.240 I know you do one-to-one coaching.

01:05:25.380 Let them know where to find you on socials and with coaching and everything else that

01:05:29.480 you have going on.

01:05:30.100 No, I appreciate it.

01:05:30.600 So the website is theconvoguy.com, theconvoguy.com.

01:05:34.800 And then you can find me on Instagram as well, theconvoguy.

01:05:37.780 Instagram is usually where I post the most.

01:05:40.000 Everywhere else, my social is just my name, Pion Pakmanish on LinkedIn and on YouTube.

01:05:43.720 I may change it and make it more global, but right now, because Instagram is where I'm

01:05:47.240 heavily producing content, Instagram is theconvoguy.com, and then everywhere else is just my first

01:05:51.400 and last name.

01:05:52.420 And then the website is theconvoguy.com.

01:05:55.880 As you said earlier, theconvoguy is definitely easier for us, but it's so good marketing on

01:06:01.700 that side of things, for sure.

01:06:03.320 Appreciate it, brother.

01:06:04.040 Thank you, man.

01:06:05.080 Well, brother, I appreciate you.

01:06:06.560 I'm glad you joined us today.

01:06:07.540 I know the guys are going to get a lot of value from this, and I appreciate your wisdom

01:06:12.900 and what you share.

01:06:13.620 It has definitely helped me.

01:06:14.820 So thank you for joining us, man.

01:06:15.940 Thank you for having me, man.

01:06:16.820 It's been an honor.

01:06:17.520 I appreciate the conversation.

01:06:18.660 Had a lot of fun with you, and thank you for the work you also do.

01:06:21.140 We didn't really talk about you.

01:06:22.560 You're on a mission yourself, brother, so I salute you to what you do, and it's very empowering,

01:06:27.140 and I'm trying to learn from you as well.

01:06:30.180 Thank you.

01:06:30.740 Thank you.

01:06:31.180 You're welcome.

01:06:33.020 Gentlemen, there you go.

01:06:33.880 Payam Pakmanish.

01:06:35.020 I hope you enjoyed that one.

01:06:36.180 I did.

01:06:36.680 I've been following this guy on the gram for some time, and I really enjoy his videos,

01:06:40.640 as I alluded to during that conversation.

01:06:42.740 I think you will, too.

01:06:43.800 So give him a follow.

01:06:45.080 Let him know what you thought about the conversation.

01:06:47.540 Take a screenshot right now.

01:06:50.100 Post it up on Instagram, Facebook, X.

01:06:53.380 Tag me.

01:06:54.400 Tag Payam.

01:06:55.300 Let everybody know what you're listening to, and also commit to doing something with this

01:06:59.840 information.

01:07:01.260 You know, you could just skip to another podcast right now.

01:07:04.060 You can go watch something on YouTube.

01:07:05.280 You can binge watch the next Netflix series.

01:07:09.020 Instead, commit to doing something from this conversation.

01:07:12.560 I think you will be much more satisfied, much more productive, and much more effective in

01:07:18.360 your life if you do.

01:07:19.620 Do that.

01:07:20.780 Check out the Iron Council before we close it out for the end of the year at orderofman.com

01:07:24.700 slash ironcouncil.

01:07:26.300 And ultimately, guys, please, if you would, leave that rating and review like I've been

01:07:29.760 asking.

01:07:30.340 They're coming in.

01:07:31.020 They're flooding in.

01:07:31.680 And I appreciate that.

01:07:33.120 You have no idea how much I appreciate that.

01:07:34.900 It means a lot to me.

01:07:36.060 So those are your marching orders.

01:07:38.160 We'll be back tomorrow for our Ask Me Anything.

01:07:40.880 Until then, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to be.

01:07:44.800 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

01:07:48.360 If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be,

01:07:52.360 we invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

01:07:55.500 Thank you.

01:08:03.060 Thank you.

01:08:03.120 Thank you.

01:08:03.180 Thank you.

Order of Man - November 18, 2025

PAYAM PAKMANESH ｜ The Rules of Male Conversation

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