Order of Man

00:00:00.000 I'm sure by now you're aware of the powerful team at echelon front led by Navy SEAL commander

00:00:04.320 Jocko Willink. At this point, I've had the majority of his team on the podcast,

00:00:09.580 including my guest today, Mike Cirelli. Today, Mike talks with us about the power of the veteran

00:00:14.040 community in the civilian sector. We go into some topics that aren't usually addressed regarding

00:00:18.960 transitioning military members, including biases against veterans, the bitterness and entitlement

00:00:24.960 that some veterans develop, translatable skills from military to civilian life, and ultimately

00:00:30.320 how we put our nation's toughest warriors to work. You're a man of action. You live life to the

00:00:35.300 fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back

00:00:40.840 up one more time. Every time you are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:48.360 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after

00:00:54.180 all is said and done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name

00:00:59.580 is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and the founder of this podcast and the Order of Man movement. Guys,

00:01:05.000 I've been blown away with the support and the growth that we've been experiencing over the past

00:01:08.920 several weeks. I realize a lot more men have a lot more time on their hands, which is maybe why

00:01:14.040 we're seeing growth and we're seeing engagement and the things that we're doing here, which, you know,

00:01:20.060 I'm glad. I'm grateful. Regardless of the reason, I'm grateful because it's times like these where

00:01:23.880 we really need to take the message of reclaiming and restoring masculinity and apply it. So it's

00:01:29.260 good to see that the work that we've been doing over the past five years is resonating deeply

00:01:33.220 with millions and millions of men across the planet. And they're actually taking the information,

00:01:38.500 the knowledge, the tools, the conversations, and applying it in their lives. And that's what

00:01:43.420 we're doing here, guys. If you are new, we're having the conversations needed to be had

00:01:46.900 in order to step up more fully in our lives. I've got a great one with Mike Cirelli lined up today,

00:01:52.220 but we've also had guys like Jocko Willink, which is Mike's teammate. We've had Tim Kennedy,

00:01:58.340 David Goggins, Andy Frisilla, Grant Cardone, Ryan Holiday, man, the lineup is incredible,

00:02:06.220 which is partly due to you. If you weren't listening and tuning in and growing and expanding and evolving

00:02:11.780 and making this thing, what it is, we wouldn't have the same interest for these top-notch,

00:02:16.060 high-quality men to come on. So I do appreciate you. And it doesn't go unnoticed that you are in this

00:02:20.700 battle, in this fight, shoulder to shoulder with me and the rest of the guys. So I'm going to get

00:02:25.200 into the conversation here in just a minute. I do want to mention my friends and also show sponsors,

00:02:30.800 Origin, Maine. And let me be clear, guys, I don't work with Origin. I get that question every single

00:02:36.540 week because I am so connected with them. I believe fully in what they're doing. The people at Origin

00:02:42.220 are friends of mine. We spend time together, of course, when that was a thing, but they're good

00:02:47.700 people doing good things. And that's why I talk about them. They've got a couple of new products

00:02:52.640 that they have just come out with. Number one is they built a box. Now, I know that doesn't sound

00:02:57.620 all that exciting or glamorous or sexy, but it is a very nice box. It's a cardio or a plyo box. So

00:03:04.880 I have a couple of those in my garage gym and those are that are high quality. They're constructed well.

00:03:11.880 They've got a little bit of a difference to other boxes that I've seen. And if you're interested in

00:03:16.080 having some sort of a plyo box, that's a great way to look. They've also got a new

00:03:20.800 kettle bag, I believe is the term they're using. It's called the burden, I think is the working

00:03:25.760 title of that. But basically it's a leather bag that's in the shape of a kettlebell that you can

00:03:31.760 fill up with sand or lead shot or pennies. I saw them put pennies in it, whatever, what gravel,

00:03:38.180 whatever you can find. So you can travel with it. You can put a bunch of stuff in it. You can lace it up,

00:03:42.780 then empty it out and travel back home with it, or, you know, just travel with it full.

00:03:46.400 And that's a good way to get a workout while you're traveling. If you're traveling, I know

00:03:49.480 fewer people are, but even if you're not, it's good to have it home. It's called a burden bag.

00:03:54.000 Very cool concept. And I think you guys will be interested in that. So if you are interested in

00:03:58.680 what they're doing there, including their nutritional supplement, they've got masks for this coronavirus

00:04:03.940 fallout stuff, head to origin, main.com origin, main.com use the code order or DER at checkout,

00:04:11.380 and you'll get a discount when you do. All right, guys, let me introduce you to Mike.

00:04:15.940 He is a retired recon Marine and Navy SEAL. So he's both. And more recently, the co-founder of

00:04:22.160 EF overwatch and leadership instructor and strategic advisor for echelon front. He served alongside

00:04:28.840 Jocko Willink and Leif Babin with SEAL team three. He also played a pivotal role in the battle of

00:04:33.680 Ramadi in 2006. He also served as the primary leadership instructor for all officers graduating

00:04:40.200 from the SEAL training pipeline and worked in the joint special operations command where he completed

00:04:45.940 multiple combat tours. He's the recipient of a silver, a silver, I can't say that a silver star.

00:04:52.220 There we go. Six bronze stars, two defense meritorious service medals, and also a purple heart.

00:04:58.600 So he's been in the battle quite literally quite often today. He's here to talk with us about his

00:05:03.600 experience and how to put our nation's warriors to work. Mike, what's going on, man? Thanks for

00:05:10.000 joining me on the podcast. Dude, Ryan, thanks for having me, man. Yeah, I know we were supposed to

00:05:14.680 do this in person. Well, you're supposed to be here in Maine today, in fact, but what did I reach

00:05:19.720 out last week and said, Hey man, let's adapt here. We got to, we got to change things around a little

00:05:24.240 bit. There's been a lot of adapting. I was supposed to, you know, go on the jacket podcast last, uh,

00:05:28.960 Friday. Oh, you were? Uh, yeah. With Carrie Mills, who's the, uh, the widow of Matt Mills from

00:05:33.820 extortion, uh, 17, but, uh, we, we made the call, uh, as well. Just not prudent. Are you, so are you in

00:05:40.620 California? Are you in tech? Where are you? I'm Texas, Texas. So late Batman and I live in the, uh,

00:05:46.460 the Austin area. Uh, I'm originally from California, but you're not plucking you out of

00:05:51.520 Texas, man. This is, this is it. I love the state. Especially now. You're, you're in the

00:05:56.000 right state for, for, for now. I think between Texas or Maine, you know, we're, we're, we're

00:06:00.240 both okay right now. Right now. Right now. What part of California are you from? So I was

00:06:06.000 born and raised in the Bay area, just South of, uh, San Francisco. And, uh, my folks are still

00:06:10.800 there. They're, uh, they're elderly. They've got, they're in good spirits right now. They're

00:06:14.500 quarantined. My sister's bringing them food, making sure that they're, uh, they're fully

00:06:18.640 stocked and okay. So. Yeah, man, this is a wild time. I mean, this is this, you know,

00:06:23.020 I think a lot of it is frankly blown out of proportion, but that being said, I think that

00:06:27.400 it, you know, to be precautious and, and, uh, make sure, you know, you're not doing anything

00:06:33.160 stupid is also a good thing. Right. So that's good that she's taking care of them to some degree.

00:06:38.420 Dude, you know, we talk about how this nation came together after nine 11. Uh, you know,

00:06:43.760 I never want tragedy to strike anyone in lives are being lost because this, uh, this virus,

00:06:48.040 but you know, the one good thing about this is you see this nation come together and we'll

00:06:51.840 solve the problems and we put all the pity differences, Democrats and Republicans aside.

00:06:58.040 And we focus on what's important. Yeah. It's funny. There's a lot of, uh, like

00:07:01.980 quote unquote social issues that, uh, have seemed to kind of go away a little bit because they

00:07:07.800 weren't real issues to begin with. We just had everything so good and so comfortable that people

00:07:11.840 were making up dumb shit to worry about. And now that we actually have something real to worry

00:07:15.680 about, everybody's like, Oh yeah, forget about that other stuff we were making up. Like, let's

00:07:19.080 focus on what's really important right now. As Jock would say, prioritize and execute those things

00:07:24.520 just sort of fall off the list, man. Yeah. You know, a little, uh, a little hardship every once in

00:07:30.720 and out. Uh, and again, I think it makes us realize and what's, uh, or focus on what's important.

00:07:35.700 Yeah, no doubt. So did you join the, uh, the Marine Corps then right out of high school or

00:07:39.980 when did you join the Marines? So I joined the Marines. I had a, uh, uh, unsuccessful stint

00:07:45.440 in college for about a semester. And, uh, I knew, I knew, you know, from my background,

00:07:51.980 the area I came from traditionally, everyone went to college and I just knew it was me. I gave it a

00:07:57.820 shot. And, uh, before I wasted my parents, uh, money on one semester, I went to the Marine Corps

00:08:04.140 Recruiting Depot and well, I did waste the money on one semester, uh, enlisted and shipped off before

00:08:09.980 my dad could, uh, ring my neck. Yeah. So the Marine saved me. It was a little bit of a fear issue

00:08:15.500 then, huh? Oh yeah. Still, still, still fear my old man. All sons should. That's good, man. I've got

00:08:21.900 my, my oldest son. He's, uh, he's turning 12 in about a week and, uh, he's big, he's a big kid.

00:08:27.120 He's going to tower over me. And he always says, I'm going to be bigger than you, dad. I said, yeah,

00:08:30.100 but you'll never be able to kick my ass. And he's like, no, I will. I'm like, no, we'll see about

00:08:34.380 that. Old man strength's going to come into play. You're always going to be a little bit of afraid

00:08:37.880 of me, which, which I think is a good thing, you know, within reason, obviously.

00:08:42.040 Let's be honest, Brian, you didn't set yourself up for success. I mean, you've got the kids in

00:08:45.200 jujitsu. There's skills, maybe more technical. I just have to stay out ahead. Just make sure I keep

00:08:50.000 my game going. Cause I got to stay out ahead of them. So, you know, but that's what we want for our

00:08:54.300 kids though. Right. We want, we want to be better than us. Of course. I mean, that's the objective.

00:08:58.440 Do you have kids? I do. You know, unfortunately fell victim to the, the divorce rate, the seal

00:09:05.640 teams. My two kids are in Virginia beach where I was last stationed with their mom and try to stay

00:09:12.160 as active in their lives. My daughter's 16. That's, that's an interesting time as a parent. And then

00:09:18.580 my son is 12 and yeah, they're, they're, they're okay in this. They're, they're out of school.

00:09:23.740 They're quarantined. And so that's, that's what's important right now.

00:09:26.620 Good. Yeah. I know that's hard. I talk with a lot of seals and, and other military members that

00:09:31.660 are either in or transitioned out at this point. And I know just the demands of, of the work that

00:09:37.080 you do is obviously very taxing on, on a wife and kids and family and you in general. So

00:09:42.520 for what it's worth, I appreciate your service and your sacrifice. I know it definitely comes at a cost

00:09:47.760 and a price to be, to be paid for that. Yeah. And you know, funny enough, you start to focus on

00:09:53.540 war and, uh, you know, I ended up at a tier one command and we were just deploying nonstop men.

00:09:58.580 And, uh, again, lost focus on what's truly important. And nobody wants to walk away from

00:10:04.060 that and say, Hey, I failed at the most important thing in life. I failed at my marriage. And, uh,

00:10:08.600 you know, I, I didn't come up from a, a divorced family. Uh, it doesn't really run in our family

00:10:13.160 line. And, uh, for that to happen to my kids, um, you know, that, that one is a, uh, a hard lesson

00:10:18.840 learned. But again, you maintain good relationships with your ex and trying to make the, uh, the best

00:10:24.460 environment for your children growing up. Yeah. So that's good. You guys, it sounds like

00:10:27.640 you and her have, uh, at least an amicable relationship. It sounds like. We try, we try.

00:10:33.220 Yeah. I'm sure that's a challenge as well at times. I'm on both sides of the face.

00:10:37.340 Absolutely. I'm not easy to get along with. I wasn't easy to live with. Yeah. My current wife

00:10:41.660 will tell you that. Well, it's funny because you know, we, in a way, a lot of times we, we just throw

00:10:46.460 out the baby with the bathwater, right? Because we, we look at somebody who has this, this set of

00:10:50.500 skills that, uh, is uniquely fitted to be a warrior, right? To, to serve during wartime and to,

00:10:57.840 and to, you know, keep their brothers alive, keep themselves alive, confront violence and,

00:11:02.200 and the enemy. And then it's like, how does that translate over into civilian life and managing a

00:11:09.240 relationship with a little bit more, uh, delicate, you know, delicacies, if you will, you know, it's,

00:11:15.000 it's, it's a hard thing to be able to transition and translate that.

00:11:18.460 It is. And that's what we're dealing with today with, uh, with veteran unemployment and

00:11:23.180 unfortunately veteran suicide as well.

00:11:25.820 Yeah. What do you think about veteran suicide? I mean, I, you know, as a veteran, um, I don't,

00:11:30.640 I don't, I put myself in the camp of veteran and, and I, you know, I was, I served in Ramadi

00:11:37.260 around the same time you were with a task unit bruiser, right? So I was, I was,

00:11:41.440 I think we were there maybe two months with an overlap or something like that, you know,

00:11:47.460 somewhere right around there. Um, but I don't put myself in the same camp as like what you guys did

00:11:53.600 and what a lot of these warriors did. Like, I, I don't feel that that's respectful to the

00:11:58.360 sacrifices you and others have made. Um, so I've always had a hard time understanding

00:12:02.520 why veterans struggle so much, uh, mentally, psychologically. It's something I, I'm not

00:12:11.480 like completely familiar with and wasn't really exposed to or dealt with. So it's hard for me

00:12:16.080 to wrap my head around it. It's, uh, man, it's, it's so tragic. And if I'm looking down,

00:12:23.300 I'm writing just a quick notes. Um, so you know, who's done a lot of research on this. You may have,

00:12:29.620 uh, heard this guy, uh, Sebastian younger. Oh yeah. With, uh, he wrote tribes, I think was

00:12:34.080 his last book or maybe a couple of books ago. The tribe should be mandatory reading during the

00:12:39.740 transition out. It just should. Um, you know, we, and he, you know, I talked to him when he was at a

00:12:46.720 fleet week in San Francisco and I happened to speak, uh, as well. And we spoke and he made a good

00:12:51.760 point. Like veterans as a whole, we don't come together. We are one of the most powerful demographics

00:12:57.740 in the, uh, the nation. And yet how many times have you seen veterans, you know, rallying and

00:13:04.560 march on Washington, uh, opposing, you know, some, uh, some policy or, or, or some bill about to be

00:13:10.700 passed. We just don't do it. Uh, the VFWs have died. The American legions have pretty much died.

00:13:15.300 They're still around. Uh, you know, I hope those organizations can be rebranded and sort of brought

00:13:21.260 back to life. You should be proud to be a veteran and we need to look out for our own. I mean,

00:13:26.500 we policed our own in the army and the Marine Corps, air force and Navy. Uh, and then we stopped

00:13:31.460 doing it once they, uh, they get out. So there's a, there's a lack of cohesion once, uh, people,

00:13:37.180 uh, people get out, but, um, you know, you gotta look when you transition out and I've said this,

00:13:44.320 it's almost like the last form of counterinsurgency. And we all fought that war is trying to win hearts

00:13:49.320 and minds in, uh, in Iraq or Afghanistan. You've got to come home and do the same thing. And it

00:13:56.380 requires a whole lot of discipline. You've got to just get in there and start building relationships

00:14:00.780 with the people, the civilians. And I love, I just watched a, uh, Instagram post from, uh, Dakota Meyer

00:14:08.240 and talking about, you know, hate's going to get you nowhere is be proud of what you did come home.

00:14:14.900 Don't use it as entitlement over the civilians. Be proud that you went over there to face those

00:14:19.720 struggles so that they didn't come back when hearts, when minds build relationships and get

00:14:25.800 involved. I think too many veterans isolate themselves and you know, it's the human condition

00:14:31.900 as Lake Babin will say, they look at civilians and say, you don't know how hard it was. And that's

00:14:37.340 a sense of entitlement. And you're using that as a block to, to, to build relationships and to

00:14:42.720 reintegrate. And let's be honest, dude, and I'm sure you can say the same for you. And you are in

00:14:48.020 the class of lawyers. I love your humility, but, um, I'm sure the transition was rough for you.

00:14:53.440 I didn't know what the hell I wanted to do. No, no clue, but it comes down to what you preach.

00:14:58.700 It's mindset, dude. Smile. It's not going to, it's not going to be easy. And it's probably going to

00:15:02.960 take you two to five years to figure out what you ultimately want to do in the private sector.

00:15:06.520 Yeah. Good point. I mean, it did, it did take me quite a while. I did some, uh, I did some

00:15:12.740 landscaping, some electrical, some contracting work, some financial planning. Like I was trying

00:15:17.760 to figure everything I could out. I was so like lost when it comes to what to do. But I think

00:15:22.980 there is also a lot of bitterness. That's a good point. There is a lot of bitterness.

00:15:27.280 You know, it's funny when you hear guys say, well, you don't know what it's like. It's like,

00:15:29.980 yeah, that's the point, man. Like we go to battle, we go to war so that other people that we love

00:15:34.700 and care about don't have to experience what we had to experience. Like we're the front line. So

00:15:39.360 when somebody doesn't know what it's like, yeah, exactly. Congratulations. Job well done. They

00:15:45.340 don't have to experience that because you were willing to. If you heard this, uh, I guess, you

00:15:52.040 know, I was, I was on Fox news for, uh, EF Overwatch, uh, which is our placement firm in the, uh, reporter

00:15:58.180 interviewer asked. So it's considered rude to thank a veteran for their service. And I looked at it and I

00:16:03.900 said, I have no clue what you're talking about, but I guess there's this, there's this, uh, you

00:16:07.700 know, group of veterans that don't like to be thanked for their service. They view it as being,

00:16:10.800 uh, insincere and rude. I view it the opposite. If somebody says, thank you, I actually appreciate

00:16:16.620 them. Thank you for my service. And my, of course, my response is like, there's no need to thank me.

00:16:20.760 I loved what I did. Not because I wanted to go to war because I was surrounded with guys like you

00:16:25.300 and JP to now and Jocko Willick and so many others that I can't, uh, name that like we actually

00:16:31.800 should consider ourselves to be, uh, lucky to have sensed that camaraderie and that esprit de corps

00:16:40.320 at that level. You're never going to sense that again. And that's one of the things like veterans

00:16:44.220 need to understand is when you leave, you're never going to get that again, but that's okay.

00:16:49.160 That, that, that's okay. Um, you still have to build relationships and you got to find a company

00:16:53.780 where the culture fits and you feel like you're part of a family again. It's never going to be

00:16:57.860 the military, but that's what you're striving for. Yeah. I mean, speaking of companies, I know,

00:17:02.080 uh, black rifle coffee is working closely with you guys. And I was thinking about Matt best

00:17:07.400 specifically, cause he's got the book. Thank you for my service. Right. Where he's like actually

00:17:12.560 thanking the public for the things that he got to do. Yeah. He's doing it tongue in cheek and he got

00:17:16.780 to blow things up and play with guns and weapons and everything else. But yeah, there's an element of

00:17:21.040 the camaraderie and brotherhood that he was able to build because he was fortunate enough and had

00:17:26.000 the opportunity to do those things. Yeah, dude. Again, great company, Evan Hafer. I'm a huge,

00:17:33.820 huge fan of those guys. In fact, there's a video they produced again in our soul, you know, SFL taps

00:17:40.500 soldier for life transition assistance program, which every soldier Marine, uh, you know, sailor and

00:17:45.540 have to go through, um, they should play a video. It was, uh, about a guy named Sean Evangelista

00:17:51.680 owns a company called 30 seconds out, but this guy had 20 years in the seal teams. And I won't go

00:17:56.700 into specifics. Let's just say he reached, uh, the highest tactical level that any seal can reach.

00:18:02.400 The guy's a bad-ass. And when he got out, he's like, you know what? I want to be a ski patrol

00:18:06.780 member. Didn't know how to ski, taught himself to ski. And you've got this EA, the senior chief that

00:18:12.540 has like, uh, I don't know how many come back at blimp centers about Bill talking about how he's

00:18:16.860 stoked to be a new guy again. Like, and he talks about being a asset to any organization, not a

00:18:22.720 liability. Don't come up with your palm out. Um, you know, ask for an opportunity. If you get that

00:18:28.700 opportunity, you've got to prove your worth. But for a senior guy like that with 20 years

00:18:33.240 to have a mindset of, I'm going to prove myself again, that it is a good message from all the way

00:18:40.060 to, to our generals and animals right down to that E3. They've got to hear that message.

00:18:45.380 Yeah. I think a lot of these, uh, I don't want to place it in the broad camp and say that

00:18:49.080 everybody's this way, but I think it's easy to take somebody who's been successful, whether it's

00:18:52.800 the military, the civilian sector, and then they achieve some sort of measure of success. And then

00:18:57.260 they just coast, right. And then they rest on their laurels and everything they've done. And they

00:19:01.500 can't humble themselves enough to go back and say, all right, what do I need to know now? Like,

00:19:06.040 where do I start in the civilian world? Or where do I start in this project? Or how do I get on ski

00:19:11.380 patrol and never know how to ski before? That takes a level of humility that doesn't come easy

00:19:17.020 for somebody who's spent 20, 30 years achieving what they've achieved and has so much success.

00:19:24.340 So we see it every day. EF Overwatch is the, we consider this like a senior leadership

00:19:30.380 and a executive search firm. So we take really high performing veterans that have significant

00:19:35.980 military leadership and we place them into senior management positions, sometimes very high

00:19:40.700 positions. EF Legion is a platform under EF Overwatch. That's for all veterans. But I'll tell

00:19:46.320 you, uh, we are very selective. And when I say selective, it's not elitist. It's all based

00:19:51.960 off mindset. If I have somebody who's won a Navy cross that comes and they're just entitled

00:19:58.200 and arrogant, we won't place them because we know they'll end up ruining the brand for veterans

00:20:04.120 in that company. But if I have an E3 coming out of the army or the Marine Corps that just has that

00:20:08.560 get it done attitude, that's somebody we absolutely, absolutely will replace. And it's all about mindset

00:20:15.460 and sort of these like foundational character attributes that we're looking for. Um, you know,

00:20:21.060 the one thing we see and God bless the civilian sector is take SEALs for instance. They're like,

00:20:27.300 oh wow, SEALs are so great. All you guys should be, you know, placed in companies. And the answer's

00:20:33.080 no. We have our high performers, the top 10%. We had those guys in the middle of the road that

00:20:39.360 were still value added to the organization. And then I call it the 40% below that I wouldn't take

00:20:46.220 out on patrol with me. I wanted nothing to do with not because, uh, uh, because of personal

00:20:52.060 differences. It's because their mindset sucked. Maybe there were ethical issues. Maybe there were

00:20:56.500 character issues. So this sounds awful at first glance, but we actually have to segment our

00:21:04.280 veterans. The civilian sector has to do a better job about that as well. Not all veterans are created

00:21:08.740 equal. No doubt. Just like any industry, you've got your top performers, those that produce value for

00:21:14.440 the organization. And then what I like to call shit packs. Yeah. It's tough because, you know,

00:21:20.180 from the outside looking in, or if you're just hearing that on the surface, it might come across as,

00:21:24.600 well, you don't, you don't appreciate our veterans. You don't honor our veterans. It's like, no,

00:21:27.740 it's not that at all. It just, it just has to do with finding the best in whatever venture it is,

00:21:34.820 whether it's military service or a CEO or a janitor or whatever, like there's going to be high

00:21:40.900 performers and there's going to be low performers. And it, it's nothing personal. It just is what it is.

00:21:45.520 It's the reality of the, the situation. And, um, you know, the one thing about what we do and I can

00:21:53.060 talk about, you know, some of the obstacles is, is we just want people that want to get into a job

00:21:58.940 and work hard and become part of an organization, produce value, man. Which I think is most people

00:22:03.400 right now, whether they had the skillset or they can develop it. I think most people want that. I think

00:22:08.220 the majority of veterans want that, want to transition successfully, want to find something that's

00:22:14.040 meaningful and significant. I think that's actually one of the biggest challenges is they go from this,

00:22:17.920 this life where it's all meaning and it's all significance. It's a life and death situations.

00:22:23.120 We're talking about here to something that seems many menial and trivial and non-important. And that's

00:22:29.620 a huge gap to, for somebody to make up in their mind. So, you know, Jocko says it well, man,

00:22:35.820 I'll give him this. In fact, he has this great video for a EF Legion is you have to switch a mindset

00:22:42.460 that your new role is to provide value to the United States. The most powerful force in our nation

00:22:48.940 is not the military. Military is pretty damn awesome. And we can do some pretty great stuff.

00:22:53.920 You know, look at the Iraq war and defeating the fifth largest army in three and a half weeks. That was

00:22:58.300 a textbook military victory. But it's the economy. And everyone plays a part, man. And God bless our

00:23:04.860 civilian sector. After 9-11, they picked up the pace. Because I was in the Marines pre-9-11.

00:23:10.180 We didn't have good funding, which means we didn't have good training. After 9-11, everyone

00:23:15.060 picked up. Everyone contributed to the cause. We had all this money, you know, out of the

00:23:19.700 discretionary funding from our economy. And the military was a great place to be. Even though

00:23:25.020 we were going to war, we had everything we needed to be successful. And that's what we

00:23:29.100 do. We do that for the next generation. That's how you keep contributing. And if you can switch

00:23:34.680 your mindset to understand that's your new mission, you need to contribute, then I think

00:23:39.480 you find a lot more value in that transition, and ultimately what you do.

00:23:44.120 Why do you feel like so many veterans struggle then to, is it finding their mission? Is it,

00:23:51.280 I don't know, not feeling like it is meaningful? Like, what do they struggle so much for from

00:23:55.120 your experience? It's, where is my next passion? And that's hard. I mean, and I'm not a sadist.

00:24:04.420 I loved the SEAL teams. I loved deploying the war. Out of the nature of the obstacles we faced,

00:24:11.260 I felt like we were eradicating evil. I wanted to deploy as much as possible. But when things

00:24:16.420 started to change around 2015, I just sort of, I saw for what it is. And when I got out, well,

00:24:23.840 still, before I got out, I was stationed at the University of Texas training the young officers,

00:24:30.080 midshipmen to become officers in the Navy and the Marine Corps. I went and got my MBA. Very

00:24:34.740 fortunate in that sense. When I started my MBA program, I thought I wanted to be an investment

00:24:39.000 banker. Why? Because the Navy SEAL Foundation has all these events. And usually there's these

00:24:43.600 investment bankers, private equity, yeah, has venture capitalists. And these are impressive

00:24:47.660 individuals. I mean, great Americans that have built companies that are investing in our

00:24:52.860 infrastructure. And when I started the finance track, I'm like, you know what? I hate this.

00:24:57.820 I hate this. This is not my strengths. And it was the fact that I didn't do a good assessment on

00:25:03.500 myself. Where are my strengths? Where are my weaknesses? So 20 years in the military,

00:25:08.120 Lieutenant Commander, tier one, I didn't have a good self-inventory on where my strengths and

00:25:12.740 weaknesses were. And when I went through that MBA program, I started to look inward and I realized I

00:25:18.780 like creating value, creating something that provides value right in front of me. And so

00:25:23.420 entrepreneurship was my path. I also started a foundation called Vetted Foundation with the help

00:25:29.100 of a lot of leaders, guys like Admiral William Craven, Admiral Bobby Inman. And we actually created a

00:25:35.400 program where veterans went through, it was almost like a one month mini MBA at the University of Texas

00:25:42.040 McCombs. The results, the metrics that came out of that were phenomenal. The organization ended up failing

00:25:48.960 because of me. I didn't understand the landscape. We couldn't get VA funding and I wasn't going to get into

00:25:53.900 the fundraising game the entire time. That was my first venture into the private sector and I failed. Next

00:25:59.880 one, I took a job at the University of, I'm sorry, Texas A&M University at the system level in charge of

00:26:06.480 veteran services for all 13 campuses. And, uh, it wasn't a right culture fit for me. And then finally

00:26:13.540 Jocko and Wave, you know, brush me and they're like, bro, come on board. And it was like the band got back

00:26:18.940 together. And because I built some, uh, you know, uh, foundational skills in recruiting specific to

00:26:25.240 veteran transition, I approached them and said, Hey guys, let's start an organization. It's called

00:26:30.120 Overwatch. Let's take the guys that we know performed exceptionally in the military. And if they

00:26:36.420 didn't perform exceptionally and they have the humility to admit it, let's say, I still want

00:26:40.900 to work hard that, that qualifies for our organization. And we place them into companies

00:26:45.440 that we know we actually focus on small to medium businesses, which, you know, that can be, uh, you

00:26:50.680 know, from, you know, 500,000 in revenue to, you know, to, to, uh, 200, 300 million. Uh, and a lot of

00:26:58.080 these organizations are smaller. They had more of a family field. And that's where we've found that

00:27:02.700 veterans have a good fit in that family environment. A lot of veterans get out and

00:27:06.680 they're like, Hey, I got to go join Google, Amazon, Microsoft. And I get, uh, that's cause

00:27:11.760 that's what, you know, that's what you see on the news. But, uh, I think you get into

00:27:15.240 large organizations, you become another number. And sometimes that's not a right fit for some

00:27:19.900 people. Right fit for others. It just depends. You're going to have to go through this process

00:27:24.400 of like, you're probably going to have to take three jobs before you figure out what you

00:27:28.140 really want to do. Maybe five, maybe more, maybe you get it right out of the gate and

00:27:31.760 get your first job. You did your transition smartly and, uh, it works, but it's, it's

00:27:36.900 almost like, it's almost a process of elimination. That's what my MBA program was. Well, I know

00:27:41.860 I don't want to do that. I know that, but this is all that's left. And it's sort of, that's

00:27:46.640 how my transition went. Well, and you know, I think a lot of people look at that too and

00:27:50.180 think, Oh man, I wasted all this time. You know, I spent five years with this organization

00:27:53.420 and it isn't what I wanted to do. So I wasted that time. No man, like five years of

00:27:57.600 learning new skills, five years of networking, five years of gaining information that you

00:28:02.020 didn't have before. I mean, I started a podcast in 2000. When was it? 2013, 2014. And it was

00:28:11.100 all centered around financial planning. Uh, and I did 20 episodes. I'm like, man, I love

00:28:16.200 podcasting. I just don't want to have this conversation anymore. And so I pivoted like

00:28:19.800 I could have looked at that and said, well, that was a waste or no, it wasn't a waste.

00:28:23.600 It was 20 episodes. So that when I started order of man, I was primed and ready to go because

00:28:27.500 I had all that experience under my belt. So we can use all this information and training

00:28:31.700 and experience if we're willing to look at it that way, as opposed to just wasted time.

00:28:37.020 My military career was exactly what you're explaining. I started in the Marine Corps.

00:28:40.520 I did five years. I love the Marine Corps, but I didn't stay in the Marine Corps. I worked

00:28:45.500 with these Navy SEALs. I'm like these dudes, I was a recon Marine. I'm like, these dudes are

00:28:48.740 awesome. I want to be one of them. And I pivoted over to the SEALs and then I pivoted over

00:28:53.660 to tier one. And that's just sort of life. It's whatever the next challenge is I'm going

00:28:57.840 to take. You got to have patience. That's what a lot of, you know, first you got to start

00:29:04.200 your planning at least two years out. And I know for that's only going to do four years

00:29:09.700 in the military. Yeah. After two year mark, if you know you're getting out, you got to

00:29:13.620 start your planning. And for a lot of young veterans, I'll tell them, don't come to EF

00:29:17.200 Legion. Go use your GI Bill. Go back to college, figure it out. For some of you that may not be

00:29:23.520 the right path, go to trade school. The trades are not going away. And there are some people that

00:29:29.420 are multi-millionaires in the trades, man. Go learn a trade. I'll teach you how to form a business

00:29:33.840 after that. Get about five years under your belt as a welder, as a plumber, electrician, and then

00:29:38.640 there's organizations that will help you start a business. Is EF Legion more centered around

00:29:43.000 employment or entrepreneurship? Is it a combination of both? Like how does it fit into the scheme of

00:29:50.100 things? So it is employment. One, we're very selective in the companies that we take. You know,

00:29:56.320 if we know there's a company that is just poorly led, that is toxic, we're not going to place

00:30:00.460 veterans in that environment. We'll be doing a disservice to the veterans. So the companies that

00:30:07.300 come to us have put a premium on leadership. And we talk about the skills veterans bring,

00:30:13.600 guys, you've been through the world's greatest leadership development program,

00:30:18.640 the U.S. military. I don't care what service you're in. They've taught you how to lead.

00:30:22.440 And sometimes at the end of your military career, you've got to take a little time to actually

00:30:26.380 contextualize that. But for EF Legion, we're going to help with career development because

00:30:31.040 interviewing is a complete, it's an art. And so we're going to start to prep in that way.

00:30:35.740 I've got some, I went out and found some industry experts in talent acquisition and recruiting.

00:30:41.940 One happens to be a former enlisted to officer in the army, must be in the 80s and 90s. He's got

00:30:48.860 about 20 years in talent acquisition under his belt. He's one of the best. And so he's going to be

00:30:53.760 doing a lot of series on interviewing, career development, offer negotiations. But EF Legion

00:30:59.160 is, it's training. Also, they have access to EF online to help them contextualize their leadership

00:31:04.620 ability. And then we're going to put them in front of opportunities throughout the nation.

00:31:08.940 Yeah. You guys are doing a good thing, syncing that up. I think that's the most important thing

00:31:13.800 is, and I think it's actually one of the most important skills to develop is the ability to

00:31:17.900 network and make connections and find people and find opportunities. And it's something not a lot

00:31:23.100 of people are great at, but you are filling that gap for people, which is really cool. So you,

00:31:29.460 so like you have Black Rifle. I know you're talking with Border Patrol, like what other organizations

00:31:35.180 out there are hiring and looking to bring on veterans?

00:31:39.340 We, we, we, we're industry agnostic. We're not focused on investment banking or, you know,

00:31:44.660 you know, manufacturing. We're, we're open to everything. We don't want to limit veterans.

00:31:48.880 They get, they have access to, you know, thousands of, of jobs. So if they go to the platform,

00:31:55.120 they can find that, you know, in terms of partnerships, you have Border Patrol, Black Rifle

00:31:59.120 Coffee, Daniel Lark with Grunt Style, guys that have, that understand how tough the transition is

00:32:05.560 and are great role models for, for veterans, regardless of rank. I don't care about rank.

00:32:10.600 And that's the other thing, you know, we talked about it. You know, there are a lot of senior

00:32:15.100 officers, senior enlisted that come to me and they say, Hey, I want this, this, and this. I want to

00:32:19.120 step into a COO role in the organization. And sometimes when you transition, it's not a labral move.

00:32:26.000 You actually take a step down. You know, you might've led a battalion of 500. When you take

00:32:32.860 a job, you might be something called an IC individual contributor. And that's hard for

00:32:36.800 a lot of people. And you're not going to step into a leadership position all the time in a new

00:32:40.780 industry. But if you step in for the opportunity you have, if you get an opportunity, as Sean

00:32:47.460 Evangelista said in the other video, prove that you are an asset to that company, give it a little time

00:32:53.640 and you will accelerate at a greater rate than your civilian peers. I promise you that. But you've

00:32:59.380 got to put time. A lot of veterans, sometimes, you know, we've got a bad rap for getting a new

00:33:03.080 company and then quitting within the first 12 months. Stick it out. Stick it out. Like you said,

00:33:07.840 look at the value. Even if you have a bad leader in the company, you learn from bad leaders as well,

00:33:12.520 but stick it out, learn that industry, learn how, you know, you know, build your business acumen,

00:33:18.240 your industry knowledge, and you can eventually move to another company. But there's value even

00:33:23.660 in a bad opportunity. You're always learning. You're not failing. Yeah. It's funny you talk

00:33:28.420 about that because I actually had that experience when I was working with a financial planning

00:33:33.340 practice and it was a good, it was a good organization. It was a great company. I had

00:33:36.660 some good training, but I got to a point where I had outgrown the training and the value that they

00:33:42.260 were offering in exchange for the value I was giving up, namely a percentage of my income,

00:33:46.260 didn't, didn't make sense anymore. It didn't align. So I knew for about six to eight months that I was

00:33:51.980 going to start my own financial planning firm. And, and it was hard initially because I felt like

00:33:57.960 I was hamstringed being there. I felt like I couldn't do what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted

00:34:02.800 to go on and I'm like, man, what am I doing? I'm just like, you know, treading water here. And I was

00:34:07.300 very frustrated until, and I don't know why I realized this, but this is what changed for me is I said,

00:34:12.680 man, these people, this organization, this company is giving me training. They're giving me time to

00:34:20.560 be able to learn skills like, uh, marketing and finance and everything else. And they're paying

00:34:27.640 me to do it. Like, this is actually a good thing. They're paying to train me so that when I leave in

00:34:33.000 six to eight months and I shifted that and started looking at it as more of a, more of an opportunity

00:34:38.400 and a challenge rather than just a dead end. And that completely shifted everything for me.

00:34:44.080 And it made it a very good experience, even knowing that I was going to be leaving in six

00:34:47.400 to eight months. Yeah. You know, the best thing I can say is it's almost a, an assumption of positive

00:34:54.180 intent or always trying to find the positive in every opportunity. A lot of vets will come to me

00:34:58.740 and they're like, dude, I hate my place of work. My boss is awful. Okay. I had some awful bosses in

00:35:04.820 the military. In fact, you know, I had a lot of awful, awful bosses in the military. What's the

00:35:09.320 difference? The other thing too, is that, you know, a lot of the veterans are like, well, these

00:35:13.860 people just don't know how to lead. I see the opposite, man. I've met a lot of business leaders

00:35:18.400 without any military experience that are phenomenal leaders. I'm almost to the point where I'm like,

00:35:23.100 bro, you need to join the SEAL teams. I know you're 40, but we need you, or we need you in the

00:35:27.380 Marines. Uh, you're a great leader. Um, so we need veterans just to, we need a mindset. And a lot of

00:35:35.600 people say, Hey, well, these civilians don't know there's biases. Yeah. There's biases wherever you

00:35:40.940 go. You're never going to defeat that. We, as veterans, there's a point where we become a problem.

00:35:47.020 Yeah. And yeah, we'll convince, uh, the civilian sector, the private sector of our worth through our

00:35:54.500 actions, not our words. We need to stop talking. We need to start doing. And you know, for, for

00:35:59.680 veterans, we said, you might, you may be told no 50 times before you get a yes. And guess what?

00:36:06.920 You're probably going to grab that. Yes. Even if the job is not all that attractive, like you said,

00:36:11.500 it's an opportunity, knock it out of the park. The other thing about passion, a lot of vets are like,

00:36:16.140 I'm just not passionate about anything I do. I'll tell them get really good at the thing you hate,

00:36:21.300 which is your job. And you'll start to actually grow a passion around that usually because you'll

00:36:27.040 become so irreplaceable to that business that when a virus hits, you're one of the few that they keep

00:36:32.940 on more. And that's the value. And you can build that passion. So just again, mindset, you got to

00:36:38.740 be positive with this whole, whole experience. All right, man, I know you're enjoying the

00:36:43.420 conversation, but I got to hit the, uh, the timeout, the pause button real quick. I got to tell you

00:36:47.300 about this. The iron council is growing, continues to grow exponentially. And I think part of the

00:36:51.280 reason for that is during times of crisis, like we're experiencing now, uh, men know,

00:36:55.840 and they also have a desire to step into the positions that are going to serve their families

00:36:59.740 and communities. Uh, it's built into our DNA to lead, especially in times of crisis. And that's

00:37:05.520 exactly what we're doing to equip the men who band with us inside our exclusive brotherhood,

00:37:09.680 the iron council. Uh, when you join with us, you're going to give or get, I should say,

00:37:14.200 uh, the foundation for growth and success and effective leadership as a father, husband,

00:37:19.780 a business owner, community leader. And on top of that, you're going to have a path to run on

00:37:24.380 and a place where you can develop the camaraderie that most men just don't get outside of maybe

00:37:29.740 military service or team and competitive sports. So if you're ready to step up, uh, you want the

00:37:35.000 framework and the accountability to do so, then join us in the iron council by going to order of man.com

00:37:41.460 slash iron council again, order of man.com slash iron council. I encourage you to do that after

00:37:47.300 the show for now, I'll follow and finish things up with Mike. Yeah, it's funny. There's a, some

00:37:53.680 great work by a gentleman we've had on the podcast a couple of times. His name is Cal Newport. And he

00:37:58.360 talks about this in his book, deep work. And, uh, so good. They can't ignore you. And he talks about

00:38:05.220 this, follow your passion idea and how it's actually dangerous because you'll bounce from place to

00:38:10.360 place to place because everything's got its fair share of challenges and frustrations. And there's,

00:38:16.040 there's nowhere I've ever been. I'm sure you can attest to this as well, where it's just been

00:38:19.800 perfect. And, and it seems to me that a lot of people believe that if it isn't perfect, then it's

00:38:26.720 not quote unquote meant to be, or it isn't my quote unquote passion. It's like, have you ever done

00:38:31.680 anything that there wasn't an element that you didn't enjoy? I mean, this is life, right? And you can

00:38:37.180 develop that passion by becoming, like you said, the best at whatever you're doing. It doesn't mean

00:38:42.660 you're going to do it for the next 40 years. It just means be passionate about this right now

00:38:46.940 until something else, uh, is, is developed or, or comes along. That's going to be more meaningful to

00:38:53.080 you. I hate the word perfect. You know, we always used to have those, those instructors like in SEAL

00:38:58.440 training that ended up not having good reputations. They're like, we expect perfect every time.

00:39:03.500 It's just like perfection is an illusion. Yeah. It's a complete illusion because the second you

00:39:09.260 say I'm perfect, there's no room for improvement. Right. We're always in pursuit of excellence

00:39:16.120 in continually improving, always reaching to get that perfect performance, knowing that there is

00:39:21.820 no such thing. Cause the second I said, you believe that you've done the, you know, opportunities will

00:39:28.060 come along. You will shift jobs. That's okay. That's, that's part of the process. What we're seeing

00:39:32.980 right now, uh, especially within the tech sector is people are hopping between companies every one

00:39:38.120 to two years. Somebody offers a little higher salary. They jump over to that company. The other

00:39:42.680 thing that employers are going to respect is loyalty. Uh, there was a great, uh, Marine officer I was

00:39:48.280 talking to. He was a commo. Uh, he went and worked for a healthcare company and he said it was hard at

00:39:54.140 first because he took a job that he felt that he was, uh, undervalued, but he gave it five years.

00:39:59.820 And during those five years, after the first two years, he got on a track and he was accelerating

00:40:03.720 quicker than his civilian counterparts. So, uh, you gotta give it time, remain loyal to the

00:40:09.760 organization and hopefully the organization will remain loyal to you if you're performing. And

00:40:15.200 that's what you need to focus on. And you know, look, even if the, even if the organization does not

00:40:20.820 remain loyal to you, which is very likely, you're still going to be in a better position.

00:40:25.480 You're, you're still going to be networked. You're still going to have all that skillset.

00:40:29.600 You're still going to be able to transition somewhere else, but like, it's not going to

00:40:32.780 hurt you by being loyal to an organization. Uh, if at some point they decide to terminate

00:40:38.940 your employment for no reason, or they aren't as loyal as you would have hoped, like you're

00:40:42.640 still in a better spot by being that way than, than you were not being that way.

00:40:47.280 And if you were positive, they will write you a glowing letter of recommendation or that that's

00:40:52.260 what you, you know, you want to leave every organization, uh, where even if they terminate

00:40:56.660 you, they're sorry to see you go. That's called regrettable, uh, you know, uh, attrition.

00:41:02.220 Um, and through that you are networking. You know, the thing we tell veterans is you are always

00:41:07.680 networking. You're always passively looking for the next opportunity. We're not encouraging

00:41:12.800 people to be disallowed with their organization, but, uh, you keep your doors open that way.

00:41:17.800 And if let's say an avenue within your current organization doesn't allow you to progress

00:41:22.880 anymore, then, you know, that's when you start seriously actively looking for, for another

00:41:28.160 opportunity. The other thing veterans suffer for is, you know, is underemployment. They feel

00:41:34.040 that they're, they're, they're, they're taking a job that, uh, is below their, their current

00:41:38.800 skillset. Again, that's probably going to happen, especially, like I said, it's a, it's a

00:41:43.040 downward, uh, transition. You know, you might be an individual contributor. You might actually

00:41:48.140 take a job and you may take a pay cut a bit from what you were making in the military in

00:41:52.120 terms of, uh, total compensation with, with all that we have to, uh, our disposal, healthcare

00:41:57.040 and all that. That's okay. Take the job, even if you feel under, uh, employed and knock it

00:42:03.500 out of the park to just, just destroy it. And, uh, you, you will promote that. The great thing,

00:42:09.680 and let's be honest, meritocracy doesn't really exist in the military. It does to a small degree.

00:42:14.880 To a degree. Everything is linear promotion. You're, you're on this new promotion. You're

00:42:18.140 not really going to out promote your peers for the most part until you get into the more senior

00:42:22.140 enlisted ranks. So the more senior, uh, officer ranks. But the great thing about the private

00:42:26.180 sector is meritocracy is, is alive. And of course, you're going to eat more. You continue to hunt,

00:42:32.120 continue to innovate, adapt, improve. You're going to accelerate guys. So step in,

00:42:37.060 perform and things will be okay. It's funny. Cause you see these guys have some,

00:42:42.380 some animosity towards people in, in the civilian sector who are leading, for example, who, you know,

00:42:48.860 everyone knows they shouldn't be leading. I'm just saying that's an exception. And that doesn't last

00:42:53.760 long, like that, that's an exception to the meritocracy. Right. And eventually that individual

00:42:59.340 will be found out. You, you want to be primed and ready when that individual is found out so that

00:43:04.720 you position yourself to step into that role or to step into another role. That's actually one of

00:43:09.300 the challenges I did have with the military is that, you know, and, and me and some of the guys

00:43:13.960 used to joke, it's like, you know, the guys that get promoted are the ones that stick around the

00:43:17.180 longest. That's it. Like time in the game and whether they improve or not is irrelevant. You know,

00:43:23.260 and I, and I realized now looking back that that was true in some cases, but certainly not true in,

00:43:28.600 in every case. And a lot of the leaders that we had did, did do well and they did exert themselves

00:43:34.660 and they did learn and they were humble and all the things that you and echelon front team talks

00:43:38.460 about. Yeah. And if you have that bad boss, definitely don't overcome that, you know,

00:43:43.340 that can be very aggressive sometimes. Yeah. In terms of like, if some, you see some, somebody

00:43:49.220 that's a weak leader, you want to overtake them. Same way in the military, support that leader,

00:43:53.660 even if you're a bad leader, support them, be a good team player. Uh, and again, once that

00:43:58.300 opportunity comes, you'll be ready to, uh, to pounce, to seize the high ground. And even if it

00:44:03.540 doesn't come in that environment, it will come somewhere else. Right. And you'll be poised and

00:44:07.440 positioned to be able to, to see, to even recognize the other opportunities. That's the thing. Some

00:44:11.660 people remain so bitter over their entire lives that they had all these opportunities coming at them

00:44:16.220 and they were so bitter and resentful about what was in their front site focus that they lost track of

00:44:20.800 like, Oh, there was an opportunity. Oh, there was a chance. You were so focused on the negativity

00:44:25.340 and being bitter that you couldn't see what other options were available.

00:44:29.140 Positive breeds positive, positive brings on more options without a doubt, man.

00:44:33.700 Without a doubt. For sure. So what are some of the, uh, like the translatable skills? You know,

00:44:38.720 we, we talk a lot about having to maybe take like a, like a parallel transition or even a step down

00:44:44.380 when you get into the civilian sector, because you know, I realized not everything is translatable,

00:44:49.300 but I know that there is a lot. And it seems to me that a lot of veterans, uh, undermine, uh, or look

00:44:57.100 down on, or just even overlook the skill sets that they have that are very translatable to the civilian

00:45:02.540 world.

00:45:03.940 It's so this is where it comes into play, especially with the interviews. You have to be able to tell a

00:45:07.820 story. And one of the things too, that veterans to a fault, the word we use when we talk about

00:45:14.900 our achievements is we, we did this, we did this. We're so team oriented. This is what sucks. And in

00:45:21.480 my, you know, for veterans, listen to this in an interview, you have to switch to I, and I know

00:45:27.200 that feels disgusting. It's, I was faced and the rest of my team with this obstacle. I made these

00:45:34.840 decisions. I oriented my team, had them execute. And this is what resulted out of it. You have to take

00:45:41.660 ownership over your actions and show the value that you're going to bring to an organization.

00:45:46.640 Now, like, you know, I will say the military is very selective and people don't know this.

00:45:52.040 I think the last time I saw seven out of, uh, 10 eligible, uh, young Americans, I'm sorry,

00:45:59.200 seven out of 10 young Americans are not eligible for military service.

00:46:01.980 Yeah. I was going to say seven that are eligible. I'm like, that actually sounds high and healthy,

00:46:05.600 but I could see it being the other way, which is unfortunate.

00:46:08.060 So three out of 10 are eligible for military service. Our standard is high. And this is also

00:46:12.760 the most, the most highly educated military in the history of mankind. Non, or I'm sorry,

00:46:19.040 for-profit universities changed the game online. The thing I was amazed about, and what I tell

00:46:23.420 a lot of people in the private sector, and they just, they don't know, um, is that we would go out

00:46:28.580 in Afghanistan. We would execute a mission, eliminate 10, you know, enemy insurgents, come back

00:46:34.400 at 5am in the morning and my guys would go get on the computer with slow wifi and knock out three

00:46:39.800 hours of their degree. Most of my guys, when I was a troop commander, uh, had master's degrees

00:46:46.160 when I didn't even have one. Some had two. These guys are highly educated and some employers will

00:46:52.000 say, well, yeah, that's an online, you know, university doesn't hold its weight. Uh, I'll tell

00:46:57.580 you getting a degree in that environment when you're not on a campus with green lawns is much

00:47:03.980 more difficult than going to a traditional campus. It takes a lot of discipline online. Um, so, you

00:47:10.460 know, veterans have a lot of access to education, but in terms of translatable skills, you really have

00:47:17.100 to focus on those soft skills and you, whether you're going to win an interview or not is the

00:47:22.140 amount of research you did on that company and that industry. If you go into an interview cold,

00:47:28.500 you're most likely, and there's, there's a few exceptions, one out of 10, we'll knock it out of

00:47:32.020 the park. The other nine, if you've not done your research, like targeting a human on the battlefield,

00:47:36.480 learning everything about them before you step outside that wire to go do a direct action raid,

00:47:41.080 you're going to lose. You got to find out what's, you know, what are the pain points within the

00:47:45.000 industry, how your experiences can relate to that, what stories you can relate to that,

00:47:49.940 how you would solve those problems, but focus on your soft skills and then reinforce to them that

00:47:55.040 you're learning agility and the learning agility of our veterans is through the roof. How can I,

00:48:00.500 you know, sort of claim that is that we'd send a young, you know, E-5 soldier to Iraq. One

00:48:06.440 deployment comes back for a year and then the next deployment, he's in Afghanistan, completely

00:48:10.000 different environment. And he'd have to learn that culture. He'd have to learn that terrain. He'd

00:48:14.180 have to learn that enemy. But learning agility is through the roof is sort of reinforced that,

00:48:18.240 hey, I might not have industry experience. In fact, I don't have industry experience,

00:48:22.840 but this is what I can bring to your organization. I'm a great follower. I'm a great leader. I

00:48:27.240 understand the team. I'm trainable. And more importantly, I have this thing called learning

00:48:31.960 agility. I will learn the hard skills. If you teach me, I will learn the hard skills. If an organization

00:48:38.140 is so fixated and myself and, you know, one of my peers within EF Overwatch have a book coming out,

00:48:47.580 probably a summertime frame called The Talent War, all about hiring and, you know, how we hire in

00:48:53.580 special operations and how those best practices can be played or sort of translated into the private

00:48:58.640 sector and how they hire. If they're so fixated on industry experience and they can't see your value,

00:49:04.380 that's fine. That organization doesn't see your value. And sometimes that organization

00:49:08.600 is represented by a person that shouldn't be representing that organization. That may be a

00:49:12.840 C player that sometimes may be scared of you because you may be a B or A player and they fear

00:49:18.380 you a bit. That's okay. Move on to the next organization and the next organization, the next

00:49:22.480 organization. You should be interviewing with as many companies as you can. Don't put your eggs in one

00:49:29.780 basket. We have some veterans come and they say, I want to work for this company. Well, there is a

00:49:33.840 likelihood that company doesn't watch you or they don't see your value. You have to have several

00:49:38.920 lines in the water. The other thing with veterans that we see is that they're, you know, in today's

00:49:44.500 day and age, you have to be geographically mobile. Go where the opportunity is. And I know that's hard

00:49:49.660 for some veterans. They're like, hey, I really want to go back to Oklahoma City. And I get it. If you

00:49:55.360 are fixated on one region, then you've got to research everything in that region, what industries,

00:50:00.360 what companies, what roles and functions fall under those companies. And, you know, you limit

00:50:05.560 yourself, but you've got to find the right opportunity within that area. And that's fine. I

00:50:09.220 understand that the need to go back and be close to the family, but we see the most successful

00:50:14.300 veterans are geographically mobile. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. You've got to be, like you said,

00:50:19.560 where the opportunities are. And if you're going to limit yourself, like be aware, like be realistic.

00:50:23.440 That's what you're doing. You're limiting yourself. So the opportunities aren't as great.

00:50:26.220 Income may be reduced. Opportunity may be limited, but that's the trade-off. Like that's the sacrifice

00:50:31.580 that you want to make. So be realistic about it. Yeah. But if you get happiness from that,

00:50:36.520 going back to Oklahoma City or Austin, great. Money's not like the highest factor. A lot of

00:50:41.960 vets are like, yeah, I need to make this much money. You're trying to find that balance between

00:50:45.960 money and happiness. And I know that's hard. Yeah. To figure that out, let me know. But money's not,

00:50:52.320 you know, money does not necessarily equate to happiness. It doesn't. I've got 99 problems.

00:51:00.700 Yeah. Gotcha.

00:51:03.320 I wanted to ask you about relatability because I look at the way that like you and Leif and Jocko

00:51:10.800 and most of the guys that I've talked with on Echelon Front and the way that you communicate,

00:51:14.440 which could be, I'm a little bit more familiar with it just because I've spent some time in the

00:51:18.820 military and been around you guys a little bit is like, it could be intimidating, right? And the way

00:51:25.520 that military members communicate is very clear. It's very concise. It's black and white. It's not

00:51:30.840 a lot of fluff and it could be intimidating or unrelatable to somebody who's never experienced

00:51:39.420 that before. Do you see these veterans as having a hard time being able to hold a conversation in a

00:51:45.160 way that a potential employer or a company would want to hold those types of, or clients would want

00:51:50.440 to hold those types of conversations? You've just pretty much explained me to a T and I don't know

00:51:55.280 why. It's obvious. Like I hear, I hear you guys and I'm like, yeah, I like, I like it. I appreciate

00:52:00.200 it, but I'm sure some people are very intimidated by it and don't know how to handle it or read you.

00:52:04.520 For whatever reason, when people call Echelon Front and they look at all the instructors,

00:52:11.060 they're like, God, that Mike Srelli guy is, they're like, Jocko's scary, but I would not run,

00:52:15.360 want to run into, this was one client for this. I would not want to run into Mike Srelli in an alley.

00:52:19.020 I'm like, why does everyone think I'm still hostile? I'm not. We are directing our communication.

00:52:25.520 Again, it goes back to the last form of counterinsurgency you will ever engage in is know your

00:52:32.340 audience. You step into an interview or as a veteran or you're networking with a certain

00:52:38.240 business leader. Don't talk, listen to how they're communicating. If you need to soften your style,

00:52:44.760 you know, adapt your style to their communication in order to build that relationship. But again,

00:52:52.180 our guys know how, and our guys and gals know how to build relationships. They've done it in

00:52:56.900 Afghanistan. They did in Iraq. They've done it in other regions of the world. Take those skills,

00:53:01.900 that counterinsurgency, how you learn to adapt there, adapt it to the private sector when you

00:53:08.020 come home. It's the same thing. And know your audience. When you step in in front of a person,

00:53:15.600 again, listen to them, watch their mannerisms. And if you need to soften it up, soften it up.

00:53:21.480 If I'm talking to JP Donnell, JP Donnell's interviewing me, I'm probably going to be a little more direct

00:53:25.660 because I can sense that he's an aggressive guy and we're probably going to, you know,

00:53:28.820 chest bump. Just again, you've got to be agile. You got to have that learning agility. Know your

00:53:34.880 environment. You had to know your environment in Iraq, Afghanistan. Read the room, read the person

00:53:40.380 and, you know, choose the right level of communication in that interview.

00:53:45.240 Yeah. I like that you're talking about it from this context because it makes it more of a challenge

00:53:49.120 and as opposed to an obstacle or a roadblock or there's, you know, it's like, we're, we're all

00:53:55.620 up for the challenge. Military members are up for a challenge. They find it engaging, rewarding. It's

00:54:01.800 like, cool. How can I figure this out? How can I adapt? What do I need to do? What skill do I need

00:54:06.000 to develop? How do I need to say this one thing? So it lands as opposed to saying something else that

00:54:10.640 might offend or put somebody off. Like these are all little micro challenges that actually make the game

00:54:16.480 of life pretty fun. The transition can be fun if you make it fun. And one of the things too,

00:54:22.220 it's a learning process. Each interview you take, even if you get a no, ask the person sort of for

00:54:27.800 an exit interview in a sense. Call them back and I know you'll probably be upset you didn't get the

00:54:34.120 job. Just ask for five minutes. Hey, can you give me a debrief on what I could have improved? What,

00:54:40.420 what, what wasn't right? Why wasn't I selected so that I can get better for the next interview?

00:54:44.300 You're not questioning their judgment. And if you do that, don't argue with them. Walk.

00:54:48.800 I actually can do that. You know, just listen and take those notes. It's like,

00:54:52.520 you remember those green notebooks we had in the military? There was guys in the careers that had

00:54:56.620 like 30 of those on their shelf because they were always in the after actions, uh, taking notes in

00:55:02.420 every interview is an after action. Thank them for the opportunity. Even if you don't get the job,

00:55:07.460 would you give me the benefit of an interview so that I, or I'm sorry, a debrief so that I can

00:55:11.680 prepare for the next one. And again, if you can do that, if you can be learning throughout the,

00:55:16.780 the process, you're going to get a yes, much quicker. Yeah. And even if you, even if you don't

00:55:22.360 get those debriefs, cause you're not going to get them all, I'm sure. Um, do, do it on yourself,

00:55:27.160 right? Like be as objective as possible. What, what did you do? Well, where, where did you fail?

00:55:32.420 Did you say something or do something or, or, or explain a situation that wasn't clear and concise,

00:55:37.180 or actually the, what came out the way that you intended it? Like be real with yourself so that

00:55:41.660 you can improve the next time you do it. That just takes an, an objective analysis or like an

00:55:46.020 after action review, which anybody in the military is familiar with. So do it, keep doing it.

00:55:51.060 And this is, you know, when we work with companies, they love this. They're like,

00:55:53.900 we're doing debriefs at the end of the day, just 10 minutes. I'm like, great. You're making progress

00:55:58.120 is if you don't get a yes in the interview, that's not, don't, don't get bitter. Don't,

00:56:04.640 don't get upset. The interviewer or the company look in the mirror and say, if I didn't get that,

00:56:08.980 that yes, that's, that's because of me. I didn't do something to, to convince them of my value.

00:56:15.160 It's, it's extreme ownership at the heart of it. The other thing people ask me is like,

00:56:18.500 what should I read? It's not because I've worked for Jocko and Leif. It's not because I've worked

00:56:22.980 for Echelon Front. When you think about it, extreme ownership is like, again, it should be a,

00:56:27.620 uh, prerequisite to transitioning out of the military because the way they wrote that book,

00:56:32.560 combat story, leadership principle, and how it relates to business. And it prepares you for

00:56:38.800 the interview. You'll have your own combat stories or your own military stories. It will reinforce

00:56:43.500 the principle. And then you can translate that to the business sector. That's why that book is like

00:56:48.680 the number one veteran transition book for all veterans. Right. Yeah, it is. It is such a powerful

00:56:55.500 book, you know, and even that concept of sharing, you know, a situation or circumstance or a story and

00:57:01.580 then relating it. Like you have to fill in the gap sometimes because otherwise they won't obviously

00:57:05.240 be seen. I think by a lot of people who haven't experienced combat. Um, I, I actually watched JP

00:57:10.320 do this, uh, several months ago, he came up here to Maine and he was working with the origin crew and,

00:57:14.980 and Pete and JP were kind enough to invite me out there. So I went out and, and watch some of his

00:57:20.220 presentation and he was masterful at it. Like so good at, at taking this combat story that everybody

00:57:26.820 was engaged with, but didn't really connect with it. Cause they'd never been in that situation

00:57:31.520 and then backfilling and connecting the dots to how now they can use that story or that lesson

00:57:37.960 in, in their work and their life and leading their families. It was very, very powerful.

00:57:43.480 You know, and this is humbling. JP, what we were in a platoon together, JP was the lead snapper. I was

00:57:49.780 an assistant officer in charge. I, you know, he got out after 12 years. I got out after 20,

00:57:55.400 I was a Lieutenant commander and JP had more time to the private sector. JP is better than I am.

00:58:01.240 JP didn't know is a better instructor, leadership instructor than I am. And that doesn't hurt my

00:58:05.360 ego whatsoever. And it's funny how things change. This is where a lot of, you know,

00:58:09.700 rank centric people have problems with the, uh, the transition. Well, I was a Lieutenant Colonel.

00:58:14.680 Okay. Well, your CEO, maybe an E4 that got out in 1980. What does it matter?

00:58:20.640 Right. Cool. Good for you. Yeah. Every time I've watched JP, I learned something new. Every time I

00:58:25.280 watched Jocko, Leif, all the rest of the instructors, I learned something new and, uh, rank. And that's

00:58:32.340 hard. Rank does not matter when you get out. It's your mindset that matters. Yeah. It's whether you

00:58:37.360 have that growth and mission mindset, uh, that, that truly is the determination of whether you're

00:58:43.660 going to succeed or fail. Yeah, that's a good point. Not only rank, but time too, right? Some

00:58:48.040 people say, well, I've got the time. Well, okay. What did you learn in that time? Half of what that

00:58:51.900 guy learned, then time doesn't really matter. It's what you learned and what you picked up in

00:58:55.780 the experiences in that short amount of time. Dude, this is, this is why, you know,

00:59:01.860 E3s, E4s, E5s with the right mindset, I'll take them all day long, man. We'll do a company that fits.

00:59:07.860 I wish, man, I just keep thinking about this and, you know, you can't go back in time and you don't

00:59:11.640 want to like, like dwell on, on past history, but I'm like, man, I wish I knew this stuff when

00:59:17.280 I was an E1, E2, E3, E4. Like, I wish I would have known this stuff. I can't imagine how much

00:59:23.320 further down the track I would have been, whether it was with the military or even now, right?

00:59:27.220 Using that in the civilian sector and learning how to, how to apply all this extreme ownership

00:59:31.580 information into my life. You know, the military is not, the military is great at training you to do

00:59:39.460 your job. I've received some of the world's best training in the Marine Corps as a recon

00:59:45.220 Marine sniper and as a SEAL. The military sucks at transitioning people out. It's not a core

00:59:52.700 competency. And a lot of people get bitter that the TAPS program is broke. It's not. For the

00:59:58.880 military to become really good at transitioning soldiers out would deviate from the core mission

01:00:03.420 of making sure that people go forward.

01:00:05.340 Of course. Why have an exit strategy when we got to teach these guys how to, how to do the job well

01:00:10.860 and do it for a long time?

01:00:12.360 And so people are critical of the TAPS programs. Guys, it's not their fault. There are some great

01:00:17.160 TAPS programs. You know, talking to, to my sisters in arms, amazing veterans, amazing women. They, they,

01:00:24.780 they really pass accolades to Lewis McCord. Joint base Lewis McCord has probably one of the best

01:00:31.400 transition programs, bar none in the nation, but it's also because the environment,

01:00:36.920 the local community has rallied around that. So you've got executives from Microsoft,

01:00:42.760 Amazon, Starbucks, you know, you know, Howard Schultz donates a lot of time and money towards

01:00:49.720 assisting veterans in Boeing. They get involved and they, they really set the mindset for a lot of

01:00:54.540 veterans going out. As a whole, you know, a lot of the people leading transition assistance programs

01:01:00.380 are, you know, former military that never served in the private sector, but you can still take a lot

01:01:05.260 from, from, from the TAPS programs. They will tell you how to maximize. It's not to, to, you know,

01:01:10.920 like welfare, we're taking advantage of the, you know, VA benefits, but they will make sure that

01:01:16.200 everything's squared away when you're getting out. And that's really a value, a core value of the

01:01:21.280 the TAPS programs. But when you get out, you said it best, you should be talking to everyone.

01:01:26.600 If you think you're interested in a certain industry, don't find veterans in that industry,

01:01:31.980 go find business leaders that have been doing it for 20, 30 years, almost like you're senior

01:01:35.260 listed or senior officers. Get over the fact that they didn't have military experience.

01:01:39.800 Talk to them. It was a general pace that recently said, I think it was about a year ago. He said,

01:01:46.000 stop listening to veterans that have recently transitioned out because they're still trying to figure it out.

01:01:50.240 Right. Right.

01:01:51.140 You'll find business leaders that have spent time in their respective trenches

01:01:54.820 and listen to them and build relationships and they'll guide you. You'll learn a lot of guide you

01:02:00.600 in the right direction. I even had one, uh, highly just respectable, high-performing executive in

01:02:07.660 a certain industry say, Mike, I don't think this is for you. I don't think you're going to find,

01:02:11.440 uh, uh, you know, happiness or value in this industry. And at first I took that, uh,

01:02:16.580 harshly. I thought he was attacking me and I didn't do what it takes, but I actually called

01:02:21.440 that guy two years late and, uh, it said, Hey, thank you for that advice. I started a company

01:02:26.500 with two of my former teammates. I'm happier than hell. And so sometimes they're, they're going

01:02:31.900 to tell you what you don't want to hear when, you know, which is what you need to hear.

01:02:36.500 Yeah, for sure. But it's a hard pill to swallow in the moment. But if you have this long-term

01:02:40.780 perspective about it, and like you said, you're, you're looking to mentors who have done this

01:02:45.480 already, not on the path, they're like down the path, right? At the end of the path, uh,

01:02:51.100 you're going to be able to maintain that perspective and, and, and have it right.

01:02:54.740 Yeah. It's, it's, you've got to engage. I think that's a bottom line engage. Even if you come to

01:02:59.900 EF Legion, you should, you know, again, put as many lines in the water as possible. Don't,

01:03:05.200 don't rely on EF Legion to get you a job. One of the things that, you know, there are recruiting

01:03:09.400 firms out there that if you come to them, they're going to have you sign an exclusivity

01:03:13.000 agreement, which means you can only use them. I would never do that. You know, that's like

01:03:18.200 a car dealer saying, Hey, well, if you want to buy a car from us, you've got to sign this

01:03:21.320 agreement that you can't go anywhere else. Yeah. Yeah. No. It, when people come to EF Overwatch,

01:03:25.780 you know, what I tell them is like, Hey, if anything, we're going to help prepare you for

01:03:29.680 the transition. We're going to help prepare you to win that interview. You may have another

01:03:34.320 opportunity through a mentor that you actually take that job. And, you know, we, we technically

01:03:41.500 get your revenue out of that, but I don't care. You know, you'll call us down the line when you

01:03:45.680 want to hire people. I'm happy. We're happy. Send somebody to you. Right. Exactly.

01:03:49.440 It's a, don't, don't rely on EF Legion. Don't rely on that EF Overwatch. Come to us. We'll help you

01:03:54.180 out. We'll help you prepare. But you should be taking any, every interview you can get. You should

01:04:00.540 be setting up your own interviews. Don't rely, again, rely on your recruiting firm and step in

01:04:05.540 as much as possible to every interview. It's an art. And like anything, it's, you know,

01:04:10.700 iterations when you're training for combat, you got to get the iterations in, get as many interviews

01:04:14.780 and mock interviews as you can. Awesome. Well, Mike, we're winding down on time. I really

01:04:19.460 appreciate you sharing this, some of this stuff because it's valuable. And I know we have a lot of

01:04:22.520 veterans who listen to the podcast who are going to find some value in what you're doing. So definitely

01:04:26.020 want to send them your way. Before I tell them where to go, I want to ask you a question. What

01:04:32.300 does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a man? You know, that's a great, great question.

01:04:37.960 I know we're dealing with this whole toxic masculinity to be a man. And I know women that are more men

01:04:45.900 than, than other men have met. It's, it's having the courage to stand up for what's right.

01:04:52.180 That's the bottom line. When we say, what does it mean to be a man? It's not about sex.

01:04:56.180 That's the purpose from the truth. You know, I always say in my organization, best idea wins

01:05:01.320 regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender. It doesn't matter. If you have the mindset,

01:05:08.660 the positive mindset to bring value to the organization or to bring value to this world,

01:05:13.460 then you are a man. And there's no lack, and I'll say I'll end with this. There's no lack of physical

01:05:19.160 courage in the world, especially in the military. We have no deficit of physical courage. It's about

01:05:24.220 moral courage to stand up for what is right. And we even lack that in the military and to stand up

01:05:30.640 for what's right. Uh, and to stand your ground, even if it means you will fail. And, uh, you know,

01:05:38.420 quite frankly, that's how my career sort of ended. I put my sword in the sand, which I sort of in the

01:05:44.940 sand. I shouldn't have been a rigid, but I felt like I was standing for what was right. And it

01:05:49.720 just didn't work out in my favor. I can get up in the, uh, the morning, look in the mirror. There's

01:05:53.980 some things I would change, but, uh, moral courage I think is, uh, one of the ultimate attributes,

01:05:59.660 uh, of being a man, a human, a good human. I like that. Yeah. I, you know, you talk about it not

01:06:07.820 working out. It may not work out in the short term, right? If you, if you go by that moral conviction,

01:06:12.640 but longterm, I think we're all better off when, when we stand for what we believe is right.

01:06:17.440 Even though, again, it may not work in the moment. You pan out a little bit, two, three,

01:06:21.580 five, 10, 20 years. And you realize you start making those kinds of decisions based on your

01:06:25.700 moral convictions. It'll work out. It'll play out the way it's. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know,

01:06:30.600 uh, Ryan, one last thing I'll say with the other website, we do have something called a veteran

01:06:35.160 transition roadmap. Um, it, you know, it's got six, uh, phases. Uh, it starts with know thyself.

01:06:42.140 Before you even start the process, look internal, do a self-assessment. There's a lot of tests

01:06:47.500 out there to help you gauge your strengths and weaknesses. Cause the most common question you're

01:06:52.720 going to get in the interview process is tell us about your biggest weakness. And if you don't know

01:06:56.260 your weaknesses, you're showing the interviewer that you do not have a good grasp of what you bring

01:07:01.740 to the organization and where, you know, where you don't bring value. Uh, but it's a good start

01:07:07.640 for veterans that are starting the process, or even if you're a veteran out, go back to,

01:07:12.000 to phase one, start with the personal inventory of your strengths and weaknesses and follow the,

01:07:16.240 uh, the path. But that can be found on the, uh, the EF Legion, uh, website.

01:07:20.820 Right on. We'll send them all there. Is there anywhere else that you want these guys to go

01:07:24.020 to connect with you? What, whatever, here's an opportunity to tell these guys where to go.

01:07:28.240 So, you know, uh, EF Online is one of the things that we push veterans towards. Uh, we've got a

01:07:34.480 major veteran discount, good on Jocko and Leif. They do it at cost. They're not making any money

01:07:40.840 off veterans. And what extreme ownership helps with these guys, again, is it helps with that

01:07:44.880 strength and weaknesses. It helps to tell that story of how your skills and how your combat stories

01:07:49.420 and military stories translate to the private sector. So Echelon Front is a good, uh, you know,

01:07:54.700 place to go. EF Legion, if you're more of a senior, uh, enlisted E5 to E9 or, or an officer,

01:08:03.000 EF Overwatch may be a good fit for you. Uh, again, it's, it's highly selective. Um,

01:08:08.120 cause we're putting people into senior management positions. We can't get this wrong

01:08:11.520 cause every time we get it wrong, unfortunately, uh, we lose the ability to put more.

01:08:17.000 Right. You'll limit opportunities for you and other veterans. Sure.

01:08:19.360 Yeah. So, uh, you know, uh, I tell veterans this, EF Legion, EF Overwatch, Echelon Front,

01:08:25.380 extreme ownership. Uh, but guys, um, you, you have to have the humility. This is a humbling,

01:08:32.280 uh, experience. Don't get bitter, do not get bitter and, and let your actions speak for themselves.

01:08:39.720 And it may take a while to prove that or get that opportunity. But if you stay the course

01:08:43.360 and you remember where you came from, always remember where you came from, the army, the

01:08:48.060 Marine Corps, the air force, the Navy, you come from the U S military, even though you take that

01:08:52.440 uniform off, you are still representing them. And you're either going to burn that ridge for

01:08:56.820 veterans coming behind you, or you're going to build that ridge forward. And you're going to

01:09:00.480 bring more veterans into that organization behind you. You build your own little sort of organic

01:09:04.220 veteran team. Right on, man. Well, Hey, I appreciate you. I'm glad we able to get connected

01:09:09.480 after months of trying to make this work. Uh, I know we're going to connect more in the future

01:09:13.660 too, cause I want to help and assist with what you guys are doing. And of course, we've got plenty

01:09:17.520 of men who listen to this podcast who need to be tapped into what you're doing as well. So

01:09:21.020 yeah, I want to thank you for that. I want to thank you for your service. Um, looking forward to

01:09:25.320 getting to know you more and, uh, really appreciate you taking some time with us, man.

01:09:28.720 Ryan, thank you for having me on. Likewise, thank you for your service. And, uh, yeah, this is not the

01:09:33.560 end. We want to have more of you on, uh, EF Legion talking to these guys about mindset, all these

01:09:37.720 veterans getting out as well as Evan and Daniel and Jocko. And we're going to create some good

01:09:42.320 content, something about looking forward to it. All right, brother. Gentlemen, there you go. My

01:09:48.260 conversation with Mike Cirelli. I hope you enjoyed that one, whether you're a military member, a

01:09:52.440 veteran or not. I think there's some valuable information there. You might have an organization

01:09:56.460 that wants to hire military members, regardless of your circumstances. I think there's a lot of

01:10:01.740 value that was in that, uh, in that podcast conversation. I would definitely encourage you to go

01:10:06.140 check out, uh, EF Overwatch and EF Legion. A lot of great information for transitioning military

01:10:12.220 members and those who want to employ transitioning military members. Uh, they obviously with echelon

01:10:18.160 front top-notch training, leadership instruction and services that they offer. So connect with Mike,

01:10:23.840 go to those websites, see what they're doing, see what they're offering. I don't think you're

01:10:27.120 going to be disappointed in that. And then also connect with me on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter,

01:10:32.260 all at Ryan Mickler. And then if you want to watch this conversation with Mike and you're not really

01:10:37.580 watching it now, you're just listening to it on the podcast, then you can head to youtube.com

01:10:42.340 slash order of man doing a lot over there as well. Uh, the best place for me again is Instagram out of

01:10:48.140 all three social media platforms. We use Instagram is, is the best again, that's at Ryan Mickler.

01:10:52.700 Uh, make sure you band with me because we're sharing a lot of great information, uh, a lot of good

01:10:56.460 dialogue and conversation happening. Uh, and it's important that we converse and we have discussions and

01:11:01.840 we share agreements and we talk about disagreements and we're doing that all on the socials. So make

01:11:06.740 sure you do that. And then also last thing, guys, just leave a rating and review. All right, leave,

01:11:10.260 leave a rating review. Uh, let people know what you think about the podcast and the show, share it,

01:11:14.480 just get the word out. More men need to know about what we're doing here. And we continue to grow,

01:11:18.580 which is a testament to the fact that you are doing that, but we need to ramp that up even more.

01:11:22.700 And I do really appreciate when you share, uh, outside of that, check out the iron council,

01:11:27.740 order of man.com slash iron council. And then of course, uh, Kip and I will be back tomorrow for

01:11:32.560 the ask me anything. And then Friday for your Friday field notes guys, until then go out there,

01:11:37.540 take action and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man

01:11:42.180 podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:11:46.940 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Putting our Nation's Warriors to Work ｜ MIKE SARRAILLE

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