RANDALL WALLACE ｜ Becoming Braveheart
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 19 minutes
Words per Minute
160.68903
Summary
Randall Wallace is a screenwriter, director, producer, songwriter, writer, and actor. He wrote the screenplay for one of my favorite movies of all time, Braveheart. In this episode, we discuss how and why Braveheart is one of the most important films in our culture.
Transcript
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If you've been following me for any amount of time, you are well aware that my favorite movie
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of all time is Braveheart. So when I had the chance to have a conversation with the man behind
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the movie, he wrote the screenplay for Braveheart. His name is Randall Wallace. Of course, I jumped
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on that opportunity. Today, Randall and I talk about the timeless messages for men found in the
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movie Braveheart, how and what sacrifices must be made to achieve our goals, how to qualify other
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men who can serve as our band of brothers, discovering something that calls deeply to you
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and ultimately how we too can live our lives with the courage and bravery conveyed in the life of
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William Wallace and Braveheart. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace
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your fears and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time.
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Every time you are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life.
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This is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and
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done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler.
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I am the host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement. And I want to welcome you
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here. I've got a very exciting conversation lined up for you today as I do every week. But this one was
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very special because Braveheart is my favorite movie. And I actually just introduced Braveheart
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about a month ago to my two oldest sons and that quickly became one of their favorite movies as well.
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So this is going to be a good one. You guys are going to enjoy this. I think as much as I certainly
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any of the three cents that are available, and then make sure you send that email to get your
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free bottle. All right, guys, with that said, let me introduce you to Randall Wallace. Now
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I say legendary Randall Wallace. And I know that's might seem interesting because you may not
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immediately recognize his name, but I guarantee you, I guarantee you that you are deeply familiar
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with his work. He's a screenwriter, director, producer. He's a New York times, bestselling author.
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He's a songwriter. He wrote Braveheart, a man in the iron mask, Pearl Harbor. And we were soldiers
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among so many other incredible motion pictures. Many of which he actually produced and directed
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himself. And has of course won several Academy awards. He is an insanely, insanely talented
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individual, far beyond what I knew when we agreed to do a podcast together. And he's deeply reflective
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and insightful around the subject of men and masculinity. So you guys are really going to
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enjoy this conversation. It was incredibly powerful and inspiring for me. I'm sure it will be for you
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as well. Randall, really good to see you. I'm glad we could finally make this work. I know we've played
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phone tag for the past couple of months now, it seems like. Great to be on with you, Ryan. I'm glad we
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can do it. Yeah, me too. I think when we had talked a couple of weeks ago, I, if I remember correctly,
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I told you that I just watched Braveheart a couple of weeks ago with my two oldest boys. Did I tell
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you that? You mentioned it, but I want to hear about it again. Yeah, it was, it was so good. I've
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got a almost 13 year old and a 10 year old and mom was away. And I said, let's just watch Braveheart,
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you know? And so we sat down, which is one of my favorite movies of all time. In fact, it is my
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favorite movie of all time. And it was so fun to watch him like yell and cheer and get mad at all the
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right and appropriate times. And I just thought, this is, this is what it means. They understand
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inherently what it means to be a man. And I think, I think your character development just perfectly
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encapsulates what we're doing here, which is why I was looking forward to having this conversation.
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Wow. Well, when I, I hear that from people I respect and I hear it from strangers I don't yet know,
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but it makes me feel a kinship with them. The, the sense that, that, that movie resonates with
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something universal in guys. There was a friend of mine who worked on the movie was telling me a story
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that, uh, he was doing a scout in Africa for another film. And, uh, he wanted to get permission
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from the chieftain of the Zulu to, um, to shoot on Zulu territory. And he went to meet the chieftain
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and the chieftain said, no, you can't do it. It's not possible. And, um, so they sat down to talk and
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the chieftain said, uh, what of the other movies have you worked on? And, uh, just sort of making
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the Hollywood movie conversation. And my friend said, I worked on Braveheart and the chieftain
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jumped up and said, that's the Zulu's favorite movie. Oh, are you serious?
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And, and, and, and, and in a certain way, that one, that one really, uh, uh, rings the bell for me.
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The thought that here, the Zulu with their, their tradition of what it means to be a man there on
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the other side of the world. And they related to that movie strongly as well. He also gave him
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permission to shoot on the, that's what I was going to ask. He was able to shoot on their land in that
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case. Yeah. And, and, um, you know, I wasn't there, so I, I'm not sure of the full details of that story,
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but, um, but I, I believe it. And, and I also, um, and moved particularly now in this time of COVID and
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this, this time of fear, because so much of Braveheart is about brave hearts. And, um, and I've been
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hearing it more and more lately of people watching it. Now it might be that, that some of the guys who
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were much younger men when it came out, or maybe not even yet men, um, who, who saw the movie and
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it shaped their manhood. And now they're using it to teach their sons, to share with their sons,
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what it means. Um, that seems to be happening more and more lately. I mean, manhood is,
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is certainly under assault. I suppose it always is, but it certainly is now.
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Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, in the movie itself, that, that storyline is illustrated perfectly that,
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you know, we have the powers that be that would love to subjugate those individual, strong,
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courageous, bold, capable individuals and, and keep them as their subjects as opposed to their
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equals or individual citizens of, of, you know, their own, their own lives and their own people.
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Yeah. You know, that's, that's really intriguing to me. Um, one of my friends, uh, said once that
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Hollywood, uh, likes to tout the story of, um, the lone individual taking on the, you know, the,
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the oppressive group. Um, but as soon as any individual stands up like that, Hollywood does
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everything it knows how to do to crush him. Um, but I don't think that's just Hollywood in a way. I think
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that's, I, I think that's a universal experience when, you know, the stalk of wheat that sticks its
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head up above the other stalks of wheat is they say the one that gets whacked off, um, to, to stand up
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as an individual, to find yourself, to, to say, this is who I am, no matter what it costs me to say,
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that's who I am. Um, I don't see how there's any life without that. Um, and yet I know there's a,
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there's a danger in it. That's why, that's why the brave part is, um, in the equation.
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Yeah. I mean, there's a real, there's a real risk to it. Even, even you, as you put out your work. So
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obviously I'm familiar with, with Braveheart and I knew that's part of the conversation we'd been
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having today, but it was interesting as I was looking through your, your resume, so to speak,
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and the amount of stories that, that you've written that have impacted my life, I think about
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Pearl Harbor and, uh, man in the iron mask and the passion of, of, of the Christ and like all of
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these, these movies, you know, there's definitely, uh, an undertone, I think of the movies that I seen
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that I've seen you write. And it doesn't seem like these are popular narratives. So there's probably a
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lot of risk for you and I don't want to put words in your mouth. So correct me if I'm wrong,
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but it seems to me that the movies that you write and direct and produce aren't the popular
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narrative that we see in Hollywood today is, is that right?
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I think that's, I think that's fair to say. Um, and, um, and by the way, like, so I'm working on
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what we would take to be the sequel to the passion of the Christ and
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Oh, resurrection of the Christ. Resurrection. That's right. The Christ. And, um, uh, which of
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course is the, I would call that the Mount Everest of all stories. Um, the most difficult, the most
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difficult to tell, uh, the most challenging, the most, the most frightening. Um, I think there are
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some ways in which it's the thing that frightens you most is the thing that you have to go out and face.
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Um, you, you, you, you can't run. There's no, there's no escape from that. And I think that's
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been, um, a characteristic for me, um, throughout, throughout my life, uh, to, to be afraid of a lot
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of things. Uh, but to think I've got to run toward what I fear. Um, I, I've been reading during the,
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this whole COVID COVID quarantine. I, um, I got inspired by Jordan Peterson's lectures on Genesis
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and, um, and I grew up Baptist. So I've read the Bible every day, my whole life. And, um,
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that inspired me to go back to the beginning and read it all the way through and to see it as a,
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as a whole story. Um, and, um, I'm now into the gospels. Now I've been, I've been reading a lot.
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It's, it's, it's addictive. If you start doing that, it's, that is, that is one mind blowing book,
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the Bible. And it really is. It's interesting because let's, let's strip just for a second.
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And I'm Christian as well, but let's just strip for a second, the religious and spiritual undertone
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of the Bible itself, just the stories alone and the messages and the morals and the lessons that
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can be learned and extracted regardless of what your faith happens to be, or your lack of
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is, can actually be a very, very powerful tool in every person's life. That's the power of story.
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Yeah, exactly right. And I loved Jordan Peterson's emphasis to say the, these stories have lasted
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because they are relevant in all cultures and across all times. And, um, and that resonated with
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something I felt for a long time as a storyteller, which is that the audience is creating the story
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just as much as a storyteller is creating the story, what the audience is listening to, responding to,
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um, a, one of, uh, both of my sons and I, I have three and I believe all three of my sons will be
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storytellers. Um, the, one of my sons said the, the best part of being a writer in his experience is
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that you get to be the first audience of the story and wrapped up in that phrase is the sense that
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you're not, you're not really creating the story. It's telling itself to you. It's, it's, it's finding
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its voice within you and your context and you're breathing it out. And the way people respond is, um,
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uh, is shaping you in, let me give you an example. I have a friend, Jack Bernstein and Jack is one of
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my oldest friends and he's a writer and we are, our careers parallel each other. We, we started out
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about the same time. Um, I was a story editor on a television series and I had to hire a staff and
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Jack was the first person I ever hired and he went on to write Ace Ventura. Um, another one of our,
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our favorites in this household. Oh golly. I mean, and, and to have a friend like Jack is, um, um,
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an incredible blessing for one thing on, on paper, he would seem to be completely different from me
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in politics and, in, in point of view. Um, and we sort of recognized the brotherhood from,
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from the very beginning. And he was the first person I showed the, the first draft of Braveheart to.
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And I believed honestly, Ryan, that he was going to tell me, look, it's a mess. Um, it's, um,
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it's a, there, there, there may be the kernel of something in here, but you've got a whole lot of
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work to, to even start to find the story. And we sat down and he looked at, we were for breakfast and
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at a breakfast place we love to frequent. And he looked across the table and said, I think this is
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the best thing you've ever written. And you could have knocked me over. Um, and, and that to me speaks
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to that, that need that we don't live in a vacuum. Um, and, and also that incredible vulnerability you
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have of, thank God, Jack Bernstein was there to say that, that he wasn't, um, he wasn't competitive.
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Uh, he wasn't, um, um, offended that there was anything in the material that, that didn't match
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with his, his thinking. Um, he was like, this, there's something here, there's something terrific
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here. And, and we need that. We, we need the right person at the right time. I mean, Lennon and
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McCartney did it with each other. And the, the, the annals of writing are full of stories like that.
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I can appreciate you talking about this because even in the context of this movement that we've
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created over the past six years, I see that as well. You know, I, I, when I started, I started it
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as a hobby and I've had so many wonderful opportunities to talk with men like yourself
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and other successful men. And at times I feel compelled and called to do this work. Uh, and
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that I'm not necessarily the quote unquote leader of the work that we're doing, that I'm the biggest
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recipient of it. And the work is helping me uncover things that I didn't know about myself,
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helping me to develop and mature and grow as a father and a husband and a business owner and
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community leader. And so I can definitely appreciate when you talk about the writer or the creator or
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the artist, we'll just say being the biggest recipient or just the first audience, I think
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is the term you used of the story that's being written. I can certainly see that in what's going
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on here. And I, I'd like you to talk a little bit more about that because I think what you're
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describing is, is kind of the way I find the story. So when you're, when you're shaping this,
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I suspect what you're, what you're doing is you're looking for what's relevant to your life,
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what you feel your life needs, what would excite you or inspire you or interest you. We,
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we look where we're interested. Right. And in doing that uncover surprises. We didn't know. I mean,
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I would imagine that's how you look for, for what your content's going to be about, how you're going
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to shape what you're doing to grow it from nothing into this. Right. Yeah, I do. I look for opportunities
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that, um, like you said, that excite me, that interest me. Um, I'm willing to try new things.
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And you talked about the level of vulnerability when you put out your work. I, I know what that
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feels like. I know, you know what that feels like, but you're basically asking other people,
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like you were talking with, uh, with, with Jack, I believe is his name to judge me, like judge me,
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judge everything I think about, judge the way I write, judge the way I work, judge the way my mind
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works. That's a very difficult thing to do. So I can certainly appreciate that boldness and that,
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that courage. And then I can only imagine what it's like to know, you talk about the Zulu tribe to know
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that it's it, that your work has directly and positively impacted millions and millions of
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people. That is amazing to me. Yeah, that's, uh, um, I, I have to say it's, it's overwhelming.
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Actually, it's like, I, I, I can't really think about it very much. Um, I found Ryan in the,
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the last few years, um, well, I, I have an eight year old son and, um, and, um, you know,
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most people I meet think I'm his grandfather. And then when they find out I'm his dad, they apologize.
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And I go, look in Tennessee, I would be his great grandfather. Don't be embarrassed. Uh, but, um,
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the, the way children respond is without any filter as you know, of course. So when you,
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you do something like you take your favorite movie and you show it to your sons for the first time,
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there's a level of vulnerability in that too, because there's gotta be a part, whether conscious
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or unconscious, where you say, what if what matters intensely to me doesn't speak to them at all?
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What will I go then? And, and I've had it happen. Uh, my, my eight year old loves music as I do. Uh,
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and, uh, all, all my sons love music. And, and I started, um, my career with the goal of becoming a
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singer songwriter. And, um, and I still love music. I mean, as somebody I know once observed it,
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if, if music's in you, you, you never lose it. You never lose the, the bug, the desire. And, um,
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and I still write songs and I'll, I'll play them, uh, in my truck when we're, we're out riding to
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breakfast or something. I'll, I'll listen to the mix and the, the, the stereo. Sure. And, and if my
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son goes, what's that? I go, well, it's a song. And if he goes, turn it up, then it's a hit.
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You know, you know, it's good. You know, you did good. Yeah. And if he goes, can you turn that down
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so I can play Minecraft or whatever you think, can you, then it's not a hit. Um, and, and, and there's
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a, there's a certain immediacy about that. But for me to, um, um, I've told the story before, but I,
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it's, it's, it's one of the most relevant to me about Braveheart. Um, I hadn't done a, uh, a screening
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of it in a long time. And a friend in Austin asked me to do a charity screening, um, for the related to
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the Austin film festival and rented a theater. And I, I have a print of the movie and went down and
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showed it and, and I hadn't sat in a theater and seen it in 15 years or, or more. And, uh, so I,
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I watched it as an audience member and then walked up on the stage to, to do a Q and a. And the first
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person who stood up was in the front row, a 19 year old woman, a girl, really woman. Sure. And she
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stood up young woman. And she said, Mr. Wallace, I don't have a question. I just want to tell you
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something. My fiance died six months ago. And he told me before he died, he wanted me to watch
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Braveheart. So I would understand the way he loved me. And that was one of the most overwhelming and
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powerful statements to me of, um, um, of a story that in a way I feel is, is mine and of me and from
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me. And in a way I feel is, was far older than me and, and timeless, you know, before me and seems to
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go on after. And, and I got to be there when it came and I got to speak it and it rang, you know,
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with other people, it rang with the actors, it rang with the director, it rang with the composer and it,
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and it, and it, and it got out into the world. And I, I think that that's, if, if I were to really
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think about it, the, the stories of chaos theory and how you get a wave because a butterfly flapped
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his wings and Indonesia, and that created a, a wave in Malibu or something. Um, I think all the
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things we do in our lives, we're just flapping the butterfly wings and, and they make a ripple
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and, and it's in the hands of God where they go. How, how do you, it's hard for me to actually
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even wrap my head around somebody not liking Braveheart and some of the other works that you
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have, but how do you deal with, well, you talked about your son when he's like, turn that down so
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I can play Minecraft or knowing that there's people who don't actually appreciate your work.
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Is that something that you've had to contend with and wrestle with? And, and do you have ways of
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dealing with that, knowing that there's going to be people who don't appreciate it, don't like it
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and don't, um, for lack of a better term, validate, I guess, that's not the right word,
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but the work that you're doing, I think you understand. I do. And, and, and you, you have, um,
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you, you're really vulnerable as, as an artist. And I, I think, I think we're all vulnerable in
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different ways. I mean, I'm not sure that there's anyone more vulnerable than a man who is in love
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with a woman and doesn't know how to tell her. Um, that's a good point. You know, it's, it's, um,
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and when I've taught screenwriting at, at, at different times, um, I, I always say to the class,
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the odds of you becoming a professional screenwriter, like making a living doing it,
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those are long odds, but the odds that you'll want to tell someone you love them, um, that's
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almost a hundred percent. And, um, and that, that's what we're, that's what we're trying to get
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at. And, and the vulnerability, um, I mean, I think the, the biggest thing we do in our lives
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is, is take care of that little flame inside us. Um, that's the one we have to nurture. And,
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um, I, I came across the passage just the other day, cause as I say, in my Bible reading, I'm into
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the gospels now. And when Jesus says, you know, what does it profit you if you would gain the whole
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world and lose your own soul in that protecting that your soul is so vital? Well, where I find,
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um, I have to do it is there's the, the daily, the daily nurturing that you do the, I don't know
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who said it, but that it's what you do every day that shapes your destiny, right? Uh, your daily
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habits. I'm a big one about daily habits, but they're also become watershed moments. Um, one of my,
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my mentors in school, his name was Thomas Langford and he was Dean of the divinity school at Duke.
00:26:30.060
He was head of the religion department when I was a religion major there. And he was my mentor. And,
00:26:36.920
um, he said that when you reach a big decision in your life, you don't make it in a vacuum. You're,
00:26:46.580
you're really standing on all the other decisions you've made on a lot of other little decisions
00:26:53.580
that create a trajectory. And that trajectory points the way of what your decision is going to be.
00:27:01.140
And, and so I, I believe in all the little disciplines, all the little lacks of courage
00:27:06.640
you make every day, like getting up and, and making your bed and, and eating well and taking care of
00:27:14.780
yourself and, and doing every little thing you can do to pick yourself up by your bootstraps because
00:27:21.600
time's going to come when you need your courage. And, and the big sort of critical times that I see
00:27:29.900
are right before a movie comes out, there's a prayer that I habitually say. And, um, and it's,
00:27:40.380
it's, it's when I feel pretty desperate because I can feel my life hanging in the balance. I feel my
00:27:46.140
soul hanging in the balance. And it's not about what the world will think of my work. It's what I
00:27:55.700
will think of what the world thinks of my work. And perceive you. Yes. So I have to get on my knees
00:28:04.240
and I have to pray to God almighty that I won't make God out of what other people think,
00:28:11.640
um, that I won't make God out of the box office or the critical response or what my friends say
00:28:17.400
or any of that, that, and, and that's a hard one. It's a, it's a, it's a super hard one because
00:28:24.400
we're wired to, to judge, um, ourselves and our own behavior by what we're seeing reflected.
00:28:34.360
Um, but then there has to be that, that other deeper thing of no matter what they say, this is,
00:28:42.200
this is who I, who I believe myself to be before, um, we were soldiers came out and I had,
00:28:49.540
I had invested my own money and we were soldiers. I'd bought the movie rights with my own money.
00:28:55.080
I'd put years. Right. We were soldiers or direct. We were you, both of them.
00:28:59.520
I wrote, directed and produced and produced it. Okay. Yeah. All of them. And I, I, I bought the book
00:29:05.860
from, um, uh, Lieutenant General Hal Moore and Joseph Galloway. They had, they had written this
00:29:12.800
fantastic book and then I was able to acquire the, the movie rights from them. Okay. And
00:29:19.380
and then I developed the screenplay and, um, and, um, and my father passed away, uh, during the
00:29:27.820
completion of that movie. Um, and my father died on nine 11 and, um, and they, the hymn that's at the
00:29:36.560
end of, we were soldiers called mansions of the Lord. I wrote about eight days after my father died.
00:29:44.800
So, so there was a lot of, a lot going on in that time for me. And, um, when a few months later,
00:29:54.340
when we were ready to, to test the movie for the first time, have the first public public screening
00:30:00.440
of it, um, um, where you get feedback and, and, and there are always these wannabe filmmakers,
00:30:08.880
snarky little snots that, that, that come to those things and they, they love to see how
00:30:16.900
they're, they're like trolls. Right. And they want to see, you know, um, you know, I want to enjoy
00:30:23.900
graffiti on something and, um, they'll write, you know, the office comments and the studio
00:30:29.760
reacts to them like, Oh gosh, somebody thought blah, blah, blah. And right. You know, you do that
00:30:34.500
more credence than it actually deserves. Sure. Yeah. And, um, and also there's the fact that you,
00:30:40.920
you may get, you may get the, the main body of the audience to sort of shrugging and going around.
00:30:46.140
So what I don't get it, you know, it does, or I do get it and I don't care. I mean, so, um, uh, it was
00:30:55.160
the day we were going to test the movie and I called my mother because she had just lost my dad and I
00:31:01.340
was calling her every day. And, and I said, how are you mama? And she said, well, I'm, I'm doing okay.
00:31:07.620
How are you doing? And I said, well, I'm, I'm good, but I'm really nervous today. We're going to
00:31:13.040
test the movie. And she said, well, why does that make you nervous? And I said, well, mama,
00:31:19.200
you know, if you put your, your money and your blood and your sweat and your tears into something,
00:31:25.400
um, and you know, they're going to be people who just want to be critical. It makes you nervous.
00:31:32.260
And my mother said, well, honey, if they crucified Jesus Christ,
00:31:36.640
they're going to be some people that don't like you.
00:31:43.040
Just like mama would say. And it was one of the best things anybody ever says to me. It,
00:31:49.020
it, it, it stays with me in a pretty much every situation.
00:31:53.120
I think that's a great way to deal with it is it's the reality of the situation. You know,
00:31:57.960
sometimes I catch myself hoping optimistically and a little bit delusionally that everybody will like
00:32:06.040
what I say, because it just seems to me that this is, these aren't controversial things I'm sharing
00:32:11.520
or talking about. And inevitably I face pushback. Um, but I've, I've realized that the more we deal
00:32:17.420
with it realistically, that you are going to face feedback negatively and trolls like you're talking
00:32:23.660
about, once you just accept that it becomes less frustrating or painful to actually have to deal
00:32:29.740
with it because it is what it is. And you can just move on because you know, you're going to be
00:32:33.440
confronted with that. Yes. And you know, I think that I, I hadn't thought of this before, Ryan,
00:32:39.340
but as you say that it, it strikes me, this might, might well be true. Um, I know that in my life,
00:32:46.440
almost every really close friend that I have had, I've had a fist fight with, um, not so much,
00:32:57.680
you know, as an adult, the fist fight becomes figurative, not, uh, not, not actual low in some
00:33:04.400
cases. Yeah. Actual. And, and, and, and I noticed that there was something about the fact
00:33:14.240
that the friend was willing to step up and fight. And I was willing to fight back that made us
00:33:25.720
understand something about each other and respect each other. Yes. Like to know that, which to me is
00:33:33.080
one of the most insidious things about the message that is sent to particularly to young people, which
00:33:41.580
is don't tell us anything that we might not want to hear. Um, you know, the term of microaggressions
00:33:50.160
and safe spaces. And because when you get into warrior cultures, they, they seek, they look for
00:34:00.480
your, your most vulnerable points and then they hit you there. Of course. And that is a, it in a
00:34:08.720
certain way is, is a, it's a show of respect. It's, it's a test certainly, but they don't do it
00:34:18.140
thinking you're going to fold up and curl into a helpless ball. They're, they're saying, we know how
00:34:25.240
tough you are. We acknowledge it. We know you can, you know, you can, you can take a shot in the solar
00:34:31.880
plexus and you can give it back. And, and if we're going to go into battle, we won't use standing
00:34:39.180
beside us. Um, and, and, and that's a thing that I think that, that I think we've lost. It's not
00:34:47.520
to say to people, I, I think of you as being so weak that I have to walk on eggshells around you.
00:34:58.700
Um, I don't want to be around anybody like that. I don't want to be around anybody that's trying to
00:35:04.780
walk eggshells around me as far as just, you know, Bob Dylan, um, wrote a song that I learned years ago.
00:35:13.380
Um, and the, the one verse was, um, you see me on the street. You always act surprised. You say,
00:35:24.240
how are you? Good luck, but you don't mean it when you know, as well as me, you'd rather see me
00:35:29.940
paralyzed. Why don't you just come out once and scream it? And now, now that's a, that's a genius
00:35:39.280
Dylan lyric, but, but it sort of says, maybe if we actually would air out honestly, what we're
00:35:50.100
thinking to each other, we could find respect for each other. Um, now I know there's a, a thing of,
00:35:57.800
it's not necessarily good to, like when you go to therapists for marital counseling or couples
00:36:05.120
therapy or something, some will go, well, let's just talk about the things you hate about each
00:36:09.560
other. And others will say, well, let's start with what you love about each other. You know,
00:36:13.860
what drew you together? I mean, I, I'm not a psychotherapist. I don't, uh, I don't understand
00:36:19.740
the dimensions of that, but what I do know that, that honesty is powerful and the willingness to,
00:36:27.020
to step up and go, I can be hit and I can keep moving. Boy, that's an incredible strength.
00:36:37.460
That's certainly one that I want my sons to know. And, and I want to model for them as best I can.
00:36:44.620
I, it reminds me of, of something I've thought about over the past several months. So about two
00:36:49.260
and a half years ago, I got heavy into jujitsu and I've been doing that solid for, like I said,
00:36:53.580
two and a half years. And I, I love it for a lot of reasons, but one of the main reasons that I
00:36:58.260
really enjoy it is occasionally we'll have somebody new come. And it's interesting that
00:37:04.480
those who can't humble themselves enough or get back in the fight will leave on their own accord.
00:37:11.880
But I, because it's hard, it's difficult, you know, it's, it's, it's humbling. It's humiliating
00:37:16.080
in a lot of ways. It's physically excruciating. There's a lot of pain, mental and emotional and
00:37:21.280
physical that goes with it. But I know that any individual that can get into a physical
00:37:27.180
altercation with me in a controlled environment and come back again after getting his butt kicked
00:37:33.480
or me getting my butt kicked and me coming back, I want to know that those are the men I want to
00:37:39.140
spend time with because, and we may not ever face in a lot of cases, and we've been fortunate in this
00:37:44.920
way, but we may not face a violent or physical encounter. We may, but I just want to know that the
00:37:50.660
guy next to me is tough enough to say and do the things that he may need to say and do when
00:37:57.140
the rubber meets the road. And that's who I'm looking for in a brother.
00:38:04.060
Definitely. That's what I'm trying to develop in myself.
00:38:06.560
That's right. So in a certain way, that practice is, is, is brotherhood more than anything else.
00:38:17.720
You're it's, it's, it's not, I mean, it's, it's simultaneously an individual journey and a
00:38:25.400
journey that you make together because without those opponents, um, you can't, you can't find
00:38:33.700
that. And I, you know, I, I'm into martial arts too, or always was, I'm not so much now. And now it's
00:38:40.400
that, you know, fighting with my eight year old, which can be just as hard as anything else.
00:38:46.460
Oh man. Yeah. As one of my buddies said, when he hits you, it's like, you're getting hit with a
00:38:52.300
frozen chicken. He's eight years old and he just, but, uh, that's good. That's what you want. You
00:38:59.260
want as painful as it can be. Right. Absolutely. And, and, but, but I think that what you said is,
00:39:04.900
is, is, is profound. Um, that's the way you, um, you're, you're going through this pain,
00:39:13.560
but the biggest part is whether you can show up and come back from it. Um, I started a few years
00:39:22.460
back. Um, some friends invited me up to Laird Hamilton's house and Laird Hamilton's the super
00:39:28.300
surfer and just incredible surfer. And, um, um, and he was doing a pool workout, which they,
00:39:37.920
which developed into what he and his wife, uh, Gabby call, um, extreme, um, pool training,
00:39:46.780
but they're also doing gym workouts. And, and I, I'm much better now, but I'm barely a swimmer. I'm a
00:39:56.060
sinker. Um, and, and it's, it's terrifying. I mean, it's, it's, uh, intimidating anyway to, to go out
00:40:03.700
and you go, okay, I want you to pick up those 40 pound dumbbells and jump into the pool and the pool
00:40:10.760
is 11 feet deep. And like, well, I'm sorry, these, these two things don't. And, uh, so, so there's that.
00:40:19.780
And, and, and you realize that when, if you keep coming back, then you see other new guys show up
00:40:26.520
and, you know, you know, that they're feeling what you felt right. My first day in the gym,
00:40:32.960
first day in the gym with this group of highly fit guys, they had said, okay, first thing before we
00:40:41.340
start, before we start, everybody do 200 burpees and I hadn't been doing burpees and you can get
00:40:52.080
winded after 20 or so. And, um, and, and I realized as I was, you know, you, you do, you do some,
00:41:02.540
you catch your breath, you do some, you catch your breath, you're plenty of opportunities to quit.
00:41:06.520
But I realized that, that it was a test. Uh, it was like, okay, Mr. Hollywood, you want to come up
00:41:13.800
here? Let's see how much you want it and how much you're willing to keep going. And, and when I
00:41:20.700
finished the 200, I was in the group. Right. You have a seat at the table. You earned that seat at the
00:41:26.640
table. I had a seat and I, I, and I love that. I, I, that made me want to be there. And there are some
00:41:35.700
people that go, well, if it's going to be like this, I, and of course I was, I don't want to do
00:41:39.940
that. Macho. It's all that. Of course, every bit of that, but I wanted to, it was a group I wanted to
00:41:50.040
be a part of. And that test was part of why I wanted to be a part of. I didn't know that's what
00:41:56.660
I was going to encounter, but I knew I was going to encounter stuff like that. And, and I think,
00:42:02.040
I think we shortchange people when we don't give them an opportunity because you don't give
00:42:12.060
self-respect. You don't give esteem. You, that's something somebody has to find for themselves.
00:42:22.280
Right. They have to earn that. Earn that. And I think maybe you give them the opportunity for it,
00:42:27.600
but you know, it's like in our modern day and it's so easy to, to hammer this, but they, you know,
00:42:34.180
everybody gets a trophy and heck up. Look, I, I coached T-ball and, and I, I remember to this day,
00:42:43.140
I remember when I was in the Peewee league in Memphis, Tennessee at, at my, the church league. And I was,
00:42:52.820
I was maybe six or seven years old, but I had made the team and I wasn't happy with the position.
00:43:01.820
I wanted to be the pitcher and I wasn't the pitcher yet. And the, but I remember walking by a kid and
00:43:10.180
the coach was telling him he hadn't made the team and he was sobbing and I've never forgotten it. Like I,
00:43:16.200
I don't want anybody left out. I, I would have hoped. And I'm sure the, the coach that was telling
00:43:22.620
him that was trying to figure out a way in himself to, to try to say, you're not big enough yet, or
00:43:30.720
you're not skilled enough yet, but I'm going to work with you that, you know, there would have been
00:43:37.020
something like, okay, we've got the guys that get the uniforms, but, but if you want to play,
00:43:42.000
you keep coming back here and I'm going to help you that that's what I tried to do with,
00:43:47.280
with T-ball when I was there. But, um, but I think we, we lose something when you go, well,
00:43:58.120
you, you got a trophy, even though, you know, at the age of six or seven that you didn't try,
00:44:05.420
you didn't show up for practice. You didn't do anything. Your parents signed you up and they
00:44:10.500
paid the fee. So you got the, here's your, here's your stuff. It's like, I'm not sure that's not the
00:44:16.940
worst thing you can do for men very quickly. I just want to hit the pause button. I wanted to
00:44:22.180
introduce you to the iron council. If you're not already familiar with it, uh, Randall and I, uh,
00:44:27.440
today have talked quite a bit about in this conversation, the power of brotherhood and
00:44:30.940
finding other men who are qualified to be in your corner. Uh, but unfortunately it seems to be
00:44:35.540
increasingly difficult, uh, to find those type of men and develop powerful bonds that will help
00:44:40.980
both of you succeed. And that's where the iron council comes into play because inside the iron
00:44:45.780
council, there are over 800 men who are all like-minded. Uh, we're all working towards the
00:44:50.400
same goals and objectives. I'm very active there as well. Uh, these are incredibly motivated and
00:44:55.960
ambitious men, and they have not only the desire to succeed, but to help all of the men inside the
00:45:01.000
iron council do the same. So if you're ready to band with us, if you want to banded brothers and
00:45:05.420
you want qualified men in your corner and see, you see the power and the value of that, then join us
00:45:10.680
at order of man.com slash iron council. Again, that's order of man.com slash iron council. You
00:45:16.460
can do that after the show for now, Randall and I will get back to it. Yeah, that's, that's a good
00:45:22.740
point. You know, I think about my, my coaches as I was growing up and my mom, she raised me primarily
00:45:28.480
on her own, but she always had me involved in competitive sports to her credit. Cause that was
00:45:32.720
very important for me. Uh, and one of my favorite coaches, in fact, I still talk with him and we
00:45:38.240
still have a great friendship, uh, nearly 20 years later now, at this point, uh, he cut me from the
00:45:44.060
basketball team. He pulled me from my starting catcher position in baseball, my senior year.
00:45:50.260
Uh, I had other coaches grab me by the face mask and jerk me around and get in my face and yell at me
00:45:56.260
and others where all they had to do was look down and disgust and disappointment. These coaches were
00:46:01.080
not easy on me at all. And yet these are the men that I have and hold in some of the highest regard
00:46:06.980
of the men that I know because they weren't easy on me. I always knew they cared, but that didn't mean
00:46:13.020
that they were going to take it easy on me. In fact, they were, I think, rougher on me because I,
00:46:16.220
they did care about what we did and how we performed. Right. Right. I always wanted the rough
00:46:22.100
coach too. And obviously we know that, well, I wanted the fair and the caring coach. And, um,
00:46:31.820
but to me, caring meant strong and attentive, certainly not abusive because I know it's,
00:46:40.460
I'm sure you did. I had coaches that, that I lost all respect. Oh yeah. You've got the coaches
00:46:45.320
that scream and yell and are just completely belligerent. That's different. Of course.
00:46:49.920
Right. And, and, and, and parents, I remember sitting in, uh, watching my nephew play a basketball
00:46:57.580
game and, and there was a, a parent sitting behind me and he was clearly out of shape and, and, and I
00:47:07.400
don't think it exercised a day in, you know, the last three decades and he was screaming at his son
00:47:14.720
for what his son should be doing and out on the court. And it was all I could do not to turn around
00:47:21.820
and say, tell you what, at halftime, let's get out there, you and me, and you show your kid. Uh,
00:47:28.900
I mean, not that I was any great Shakespeare ball, but I, but I knew better than to yell at my,
00:47:34.260
at my nephew. Right. And, uh, but you know, it's, um, it's so tricky knowing what, um, what will work.
00:47:47.960
You know, I, I read, uh, once, I think it was in a John Eldridge book, or maybe I just, I heard a
00:47:55.420
lecture that he was giving that, um, when he said that, that fathers wound their sons without meaning
00:48:04.140
to, right. That everybody gets a wound, uh, uh, uh, and a comment that the father didn't mean to make
00:48:13.460
or, or didn't mean in the way the son took it. Um, that, that the son feels he's being told by his dad,
00:48:20.380
he's not man enough to face life. And I remember, um, before my oldest son went off to college and
00:48:29.960
how old are your sons? Uh, I've got a 13 year old, a 10 year old and a four year old. And then I have
00:48:36.680
a daughter in there as well. And she's, uh, a eight, she will be turning eight. Oh, wow. One of my
00:48:43.160
buddies as a, uh, has two sons and a daughter. And he told me his, his wife said, we ought to have one
00:48:48.360
more to even it out. And he said, then we need another son to even out. That's a great way to
00:48:55.340
put it. We got a handful with her. That's so true. Uh, but, uh, the, um, when your sons get ready to go
00:49:05.940
off to college, um, or, or your children do that. So that's a bit, I think particularly the sons going
00:49:12.380
off is a big day for dads, um, probably the, the equivalent for daughters might be her wedding day.
00:49:20.760
Sure. Uh, and I remember from my father anyway, when my, my sister got married, that was a,
00:49:28.540
that was a deep and complex day. And, um, and for me, when my, my oldest son was about to, um,
00:49:37.520
go off to school, um, I was praying and, um, I, I asked God what God wanted me to do about my son.
00:49:53.440
What, what should I, how should I be? How should I be with my son? And it's funny. I've never thought
00:50:02.100
of God as the Oracle of Delphi, you know, that you just go and say, okay, here's, here's a problem.
00:50:09.840
Tell me what to do, or here's, here's my to-do list for you. So get busy God.
00:50:18.560
Although I, I succumb to those things all the time, but I, but, but consciously I know that that's not
00:50:24.920
quite how it's supposed to be, but I did actually ask God a question and I waited and listened and
00:50:34.840
immediately I got a sense, uh, like a clear, uh, of course, not an audible voice, but I got a clear
00:50:43.980
voice, uh, that said, trust him. And I immediately began to argue with that. And I,
00:50:53.860
um, and I was like, what do you mean? Trust him? I guess God or trust your son, trust my son.
00:51:00.980
Got it. Yeah. Like, like I felt God was saying to me, trust your son. And, and I started to argue
00:51:08.520
back with God to say, I don't, it, because it was such a clear message. I felt I needed to argue. I mean,
00:51:16.540
it was clear, it was clear what, what I was hearing. It's like, this doesn't make sense. I trust my son
00:51:21.880
more than anybody trusts his son. What are you talking about? I don't get, and then suddenly I
00:51:26.300
went, no, I don't. All I've been doing ever since I realized that time was coming for him to go off to
00:51:35.100
school is to be giving him advice. I'm saying now watch out for this and I'll be sure you do that.
00:51:41.660
Now, you know, a good way to organize your day would be a good, and, and, and what,
00:51:46.060
what I'm really telling him is I don't trust you. I don't think you're ready. If I thought you were
00:51:53.760
ready, I wouldn't be doing it. It's like that scene in the Godfather when, when Don Corleone is,
00:52:00.060
is talking with Michael and he goes, I keep going over this Bozzini business. You know,
00:52:05.900
you're going to be assassinated. It's going to work this way. And it, it's an incredible scene.
00:52:11.180
Right. And as virtually every scene in that movie is incredible. And, um, and the message is,
00:52:19.860
I don't think you're ready. And what that answered immediately answered prayer was for me was
00:52:28.860
let your son, let your son go trust him because he is ready and let him know, you know, he's ready.
00:52:37.760
He's, he's going to encounter things. He's, he didn't see coming. Right. Of course. Sure. But he's,
00:52:45.620
but he is ready to deal with those things. And of course he was. And that is, uh, that is really,
00:52:53.280
John Eldridge talks about that a lot that, and I'm paraphrasing here, but he says that every man
00:52:59.200
is looking to answer the question, am I enough? Right. Am I capable? Am I a man? And so,
00:53:07.760
we're looking for ways to prove it. And I think we're looking for that validation from our fathers
00:53:12.340
as well. Do our fathers honor and recognize us as being man enough to handle whatever may come
00:53:18.580
our way. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And, and by the way, I, I have to credit John Eldridge for,
00:53:25.880
for that prayer. I had listened to him speak at a friend's house and he had said, if you want to do
00:53:32.440
something scary, get down on your knees and ask God what he thinks of you. And, and it was,
00:53:39.080
I had come directly home and done that. And before I asked God what he thought of me, I asked him what
00:53:45.260
I should do about my sons first. Um, now that's me giving Eldridge credit. I also, at that very night,
00:53:53.340
I had read his book, uh, wild at heart, such a great book. And I went up and said, you know,
00:53:58.900
John, uh, I'm Randall Wallace and I wrote brave heart and, and, and you quote it a whole bunch of
00:54:06.380
times in every, in every case you say, William Wallace says this and William Wallace says that
00:54:11.740
well, William Wallace never said any of that. I did. You said it. Give credit to the guy that
00:54:20.740
wrote it. And he laughed and said, yeah, you're right. That's a good point. Cause I've quoted
00:54:24.660
William Wallace too. And I'm going to have to change that now that you say that and say,
00:54:28.380
Randall Wallace says, Hey, listen, now you get me on my high horse. So it's, it's on the wall of the
00:54:35.280
United States air force Academy in Colorado. Um, they may take our lives, but they'll never take
00:54:42.980
our freedom. And under it is William Wallace. Well, William Wallace did not say that.
00:54:47.900
Oh, that's good. No, that's so true. And, uh, it, it is, you know, you bring up an interesting
00:54:55.060
point because I know, and you're not related to William Wallace, correct?
00:54:59.600
I believe I am. I absolutely believe, but, but that's one of those assertions like, uh,
00:55:06.840
you know, saying this doesn't cause cancer, right? Right. Nobody can prove it. Right. Right.
00:55:12.840
But, um, there is no, there's no known, uh, way of getting William Wallace's DNA or, uh, there,
00:55:24.400
there, there are only a couple of pictures in Scotland that they think might be likenesses of
00:55:30.920
him. Uh, there are no records of his, of his descendants. Um, but I am convinced in my bones
00:55:39.500
that I'm, um, um, that I'm related. Uh, but that's just strictly, uh, um, I would call it a
00:55:47.120
spiritual, uh, yes, the spiritual sense. Yeah. And I, I feel that too about things. I almost
00:55:52.560
wonder as you say that, if you were, you know, meant, meant to tell his story, I guess the question
00:55:57.360
is how much with his limited information that we have about William Wallace, how do you decide
00:56:02.740
which liberties to take in this telling of, of his story? Um, man, that's a great question. So
00:56:11.620
I have, um, I have a practice that really troubles people, especially teachers of writing and research
00:56:22.720
oriented people. Um, and I think it troubles them because, um, I understand the notion that
00:56:34.220
we can't make up our own facts, of course, but the, but the problem in that is that we, we all can look
00:56:45.380
at exactly the same thing and see entirely different things based on our values and our, our, our
00:56:53.840
prejudices. Um, so I don't, um, the, well, the, the kind of classic academic way, the way even writing
00:57:05.620
is taught in school, um, maybe not so much creative writing, but the way it was taught when I was in
00:57:11.440
school was the teacher would want you to do an outline and there would be a format. And my, my
00:57:18.840
eight-year-old is even being taught some of this now of, um, what's your opening? What, who are your
00:57:27.960
characters? What is the character's arc? What they don't use that for eight-year-olds yet, but what are
00:57:35.500
their, what's his challenge or, you know, and, and what's the ending like, and how do you sum up
00:57:41.360
and all those, and they want to, they want to have a cookbook of how to write a story. And I find this
00:57:48.420
absolute worse than nonsense. I, I think it's now. Because why it doesn't allow for the creativity or
00:57:56.320
what is it? What is it that you have a hard time with about that? A great story is not, you don't get
00:58:02.440
to a, a, a good story by following the rules. Um, so by giving rules, I mean, the first thing I would
00:58:10.420
write on the blackboard when I was teaching screenwriting and, and I love to teach screenwriting, but
00:58:16.180
I would write, here are the rules. There are no rules. Okay. Interesting. But it's interesting to know
00:58:23.640
the rules. It is, it is important to know the rules, but I think you have to start with the notion of
00:58:29.440
we're, we're, we're talking about finding, like we talked about earlier, what moves you, what,
00:58:39.140
what is there in you that gives you a, um, that makes you more fully alive. Um, when people ask me
00:58:48.320
what I'm looking for in a story, I remember standing in a church with my family and several hundred other
00:58:56.840
Baptists and Baptists sing. They, they are the high octane religion and sing at the top of their lungs.
00:59:06.480
The minister of music would not face the choir in the Baptist churches I grew up with. He would face
00:59:13.840
the congregation. The choir knew the song. He wanted the congregation to be singing it. And, and it would
00:59:21.560
give me, and, and, and, and we sang hymns written by Beethoven and Bach and Handel and lyrics written by,
00:59:30.520
you know, John Wesley and Charles Wesley and, you know, the great lyricists and, and, um, and it would give
00:59:39.600
me a surge of life. And I wanted people when they watched my work to feel that surge of life. I wanted in the
00:59:51.480
way for me to feel it was to feel it myself. So that to me was the first thing I, I want to know
00:59:58.840
about writing. And the first thing I want to share with people about writing when they'll say, well,
01:00:02.600
I want to go to film school and I'll say, oh, study, study history, study literature, study economics,
01:00:11.760
study science, you know, having something to write about is the most important. If you have it to write
01:00:18.300
about, you can figure out how to tell the story, but it's the why that, that dominates the how of the
01:00:26.700
story. So for a story like Braveheart, I wouldn't go and do research first. First of all, there was no
01:00:33.840
research to be done. Right. Right. There was no, no history about it to speak of it. Encyclopedia
01:00:41.680
Britannica is a tiny entry about William Wallace and says that he, his story continues to inspire his
01:00:49.700
people to this day. Uh, but it's shrouded in legend. So what I always do is say, I would not be attacking
01:01:01.040
this story. I wouldn't be aware of it to write it if it hadn't spoken to me on some level. And what was
01:01:09.200
it about that story that spoke to me when I heard about William Wallace, it was, um, I'd walked into
01:01:17.240
Edinburgh castle and I had just come upon a statue of William Wallace. And I was with my pregnant wife
01:01:27.580
who had Mormon ancestors and knew her family's complete history. And I didn't know mine. And here
01:01:34.440
was a guy named Wallace. So I said to a member of the black watch, who is this Wallace? And he went,
01:01:41.580
a greatest hero. Hey honey, you know, I'm elbowing my pregnant wife. Greatest hero.
01:01:49.460
You hear this, honey? Wallace, greatest hero of Scotland.
01:01:54.480
Not exactly, uh, you know, country of wimps. And, uh, uh, so there was a statue of Robert
01:02:03.340
the Bruce, uh, flanking the other door and I said, and their dates were overlapping. So
01:02:10.080
I said, was Wallace an ally of Robert the Bruce and in fighting the English? And he said, no
01:02:19.180
one knows for sure, which of course are the magic words that any writer wants to hear.
01:02:26.020
But our legends say that Robert the Bruce may have been among the ones who betrayed William
01:02:33.560
Wallace. So as to clear the way for himself to become the King. And then it was like a lightning
01:02:41.000
bolt that struck me, Ryan. It was, it was like hearing that St. Paul.
01:02:48.400
And Judas were the same person. What if something so noble in the life and death of William Wallace
01:02:58.980
had been what transformed Robert the Bruce from being someone who would betray his country's greatest
01:03:05.540
hero into becoming his country's greatest King. And that seemed like a story. So I sat down and wrote
01:03:15.280
that not knowing whether, uh, they used crossbows or longbows, not knowing whether they had invented
01:03:23.480
glass for the windows yet or any of those things. And I, I didn't worry about those details. I wanted to
01:03:32.220
know what, what would I have wanted to hear if I was a Scottish soldier on that battlefield and we're
01:03:40.620
facing three to one odds and our leadership is incompetent and, and corrupt. And suddenly William
01:03:49.920
Wallace rides out on that battlefield. What could he have said that would have made me want to stay?
01:03:57.120
And that that's how I, I love it. I mean, I think about what you're saying and, and whether we're
01:04:02.900
talking about a story like William Wallace and Braveheart, or we're talking about, maybe we're just
01:04:07.440
swapping hunting and fishing stories. We always, we always tweak the details maybe just a little bit
01:04:14.360
in order to deliver a message. I mean, that's the point, deliver a message. I'm a better fisherman
01:04:18.740
than you. I'm a better hunter than you, you know? And, um, but, but I also think I look at the
01:04:25.900
characters that I'm inspired by, whether they're fictitious or, or, or real characters throughout
01:04:30.560
history. And it's the reason I'm inspired by them is not because every little detail is spelled out,
01:04:37.100
but because I can see a little bit of myself in those individuals and the things they do well,
01:04:41.740
and also the things that they struggle with. Right. And that's why even Robert the Bruce in the movie
01:04:46.580
is somebody who, you know, you can relate with. He has ambitions. He has desires, worldly ambitions
01:04:52.820
and desires. And yet he has also a desire to lead people, uh, a desire to do right, to be inspirational,
01:05:00.360
to live a virtuous life in spite of his worldly ambitions. It's something that I think all of us
01:05:05.820
see in ourselves. Yes. And in, in, in, in so many ways, I think I related to, I saw myself in Robert
01:05:14.340
the Bruce more than in, in any of the other characters. And, and when I'm writing, I see myself
01:05:20.800
in all the characters. Sure. Right. But, um, but I really, you know, I would, I would love to be
01:05:28.160
William Wallace and know who to love and who to fight and who's had to cut off and who to, who to go
01:05:37.440
save if I could. Um, but there's a lot of Robert the Bruce in me where I'm looking for, uh, I'm calculating
01:05:46.680
and, um, and that's, you know, that's another reason why the Jesus story is so
01:05:56.880
resonant is a pale word. Um, if, um, if you look at Golgotha on the day Jesus was crucified
01:06:11.000
and you took a snapshot of it and you said, who's the winner in this picture, you wouldn't be likely
01:06:19.820
to say the guy hanging on the cross in the middle there. Of course. But, but the, that was the path
01:06:31.160
the victory and the, you know, and it is finished, um, are three of the, it is finished. And I love
01:06:41.560
you. Maybe those are the same words. Um, but yeah, so I got to think on that one, but that's really
01:06:49.640
interesting. You'd say that cause that does, that is an interesting thought. It is finished. And I love
01:06:53.880
you. The ultimate sacrifice has been paid, which is, uh, uh, an expression of love for sure.
01:06:59.940
Right. Right. And, and, and it's like, how much do you want it? I think it was not to
01:07:06.640
lurch between quoting Jesus and quoting Vince Lombardi, but, uh, Vince Lombardi is supposed to
01:07:13.460
have said, the more you sacrifice, the harder it is to surrender. And, um, and I, I do believe in,
01:07:22.760
I do believe in sacrifice and it's, it's of course hard to make it. Um, every morning when I get up,
01:07:31.700
there's a part of me going, you know, gosh, you lazy bastard, get up and get at it. I think we all
01:07:38.900
have that, right. Right. And, uh, but, um, I, I do, I do think that the, um, uh, when you,
01:07:50.540
there, there, there's something to finding what you're willing to sacrifice for, um, you know,
01:07:59.640
what, what you, but, but part of the, part of the sacrifice is, is not knowing if, if you knew,
01:08:08.940
like, I remember hearing a sermon when I was a kid that Jesus could look up and see armies of angels
01:08:16.000
ready to come down and pull him off the cross if he asked for them. And there are even references in
01:08:22.900
the Bible that, that's just that. But, but my thought was when Jesus said, my God, why have you
01:08:30.660
forsaken me? He meant that of course he was, he was in fact quoting, uh, the old Testament, but he,
01:08:39.760
he, I think he felt forsaken and alone. And, um, and that makes it even more seeing it that way for
01:08:48.500
me, it makes it more resonant. And there are times we don't know, like when you started doing this,
01:08:54.680
you know, like from nothing, you had to think, well, I don't know where this is going to go. And
01:09:01.220
sure. There's a chance that I'm going to invest my time, my effort, my, my money, I'm going to buy
01:09:06.960
equipment. I'm going to take part of my, all of my resources. I'm going to, who knows where it's
01:09:15.140
going to lead. We don't know if you knew it wouldn't be a sacrifice. Right. That's a good
01:09:21.160
point. And, and the, the thing I've talked about in the past, and this pales in comparison to,
01:09:26.220
you know, the story of Christ and some of these other stories we're talking about, but I look at,
01:09:29.400
uh, Superman as a superhero. It's like, is he really super? Like there's no risk,
01:09:34.240
you know, but you take somebody like Batman, for example, who's a little, who can die.
01:09:39.200
Right. That's, that is more courageous to me than somebody who has no risk. They might engage in the
01:09:44.680
same activity, but the one who took, took the greater risk is the one who's more bold and more
01:09:49.320
courageous. Right. Yeah, exactly. If bullets bounce off you, then, then, you know, how are you being
01:09:56.860
courageous? I think, I, I know Henry Cavill who, who, you know, play, was fabulous Superman and
01:10:03.980
incredible guy. I mean, just awesome individual and actor. And I think the, I think they were wise to,
01:10:13.280
in, in telling that story to have to make the risks be emotional and, and what I would call
01:10:19.600
spiritual is like, do you, are you, do you become a whole man? If your challenge is, um, to find not
01:10:30.040
your superhero in this, but in a certain way to find your vulnerability, to find your, your humanity.
01:10:37.160
Um, and you know, that that's cause I've had exactly that, that same observation that, um,
01:10:44.360
there was a great episode of Kung Fu. You may be too young to have watched it, but knowing Marshall
01:10:49.800
watching. Well, so, uh, the, the conceit of the story was that a, um, a guy who was, I think maybe
01:10:57.520
son of missionaries or something, but he was half, half Caucasian and half Chinese. And he lived in China
01:11:04.100
and he becomes a, um, Shaolin monk and, um, he's able to do amazing things. Um, but at one point, um,
01:11:14.360
in one of the episodes he shot, he gets, he, I think he was shot with an arrow from behind or
01:11:21.260
something, but he's lying, bleeding. And, um, a boy who has admired him and seen him do all these
01:11:29.540
incredible martial arts things is laughing and is not upset. The boy loves him, but, or the boy at
01:11:38.300
least admires him. Uh, but the boy is saying, Oh, don't worry. It's, you know, he's fine. It's a
01:11:44.200
trick. He, you know, he knows how to wave his arms and make this go away. And the, the Shaolin
01:11:52.980
monk grabs him by the collar and pulls him close and says, it's not a trick. It's a price that has
01:12:00.380
been paid. And, uh, that, um, I, I don't want free stuff. I want to, I want to pay the price. Um,
01:12:12.420
because I think in, it's in paying the price that the object becomes worth something to you. Um,
01:12:21.340
um, another thing my mother said to me, everything worth having is worth what it took you to get it.
01:12:28.140
Hmm. Man, that's so good. That is so good. Especially in this day and age where we just
01:12:34.880
want everything handed to us on a silver platter. The real value comes from working and earning it.
01:12:39.700
Yeah. Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about that sword? We started talking about it, I think,
01:12:44.820
before we hit record, but can you tell me a little bit about that sword behind you there?
01:12:48.680
Yeah. So that's a Scottish claymore and, um, the it's, it's emblematic of the, of the, the Scots
01:12:56.940
and, uh, the, the, the way, um, they fought in the time of William Wallace. Um, when,
01:13:04.120
when I first saw it, having seen other swords, um, I thought it was meant to be held in one hand and
01:13:12.400
the, the, the, the Scots, the, the fighters laughed at me and said, no, no, this is, um,
01:13:18.400
it's a stabbing weapon. So the Scots had adapted from the Romans, the, the Schiltron, it was called a
01:13:26.900
sort of the Romans fought in squares and the Scots were, were, were adapting that. And, um, so you
01:13:34.920
would have a wall of shields and then, and then you would plunge the sword. So it wasn't swung as
01:13:43.100
much as stabbed. Um, so it was like a half sword, half spear, and it was short enough to be used in
01:13:50.040
that way. And, um, so the, um, and then they, the, the clan Wallace and in Scotland, uh, well,
01:13:58.860
they, they love tartan. They have tartan in, in everything. And, and they'd given me a, a swatch
01:14:06.360
of tartan, which I wrapped around it and put it on my, uh, put it on my mantle. And is the pattern
01:14:13.380
indicative of their particular clan? Yes. Okay. That's what I thought. Um,
01:14:19.620
now that, that is the, called the Wallace tartan and the different families in Scotland. There are,
01:14:27.260
there are books which were pretty much codified by, I, as I understood the story, um, there were
01:14:35.560
traditional patterns woven within the different, um, uh, regions. And they didn't, in the days of
01:14:44.660
William Wallace, they didn't have this deep scarlet dyes. Uh, that's why in the, in the
01:14:50.800
movie, the, the Wallace tartan, which was really developed by one of our costume designers kind
01:14:56.980
of extrapolated, if you will, or, or he went backwards to try to figure out what would that
01:15:04.300
tartan have looked like in those days. Uh, but the story is they, there were a couple of kind
01:15:10.740
of alcoholic Scottish brothers who one long winter in the highlands, uh, ensconced themselves
01:15:17.960
in their castle and decided they would, um, codify, they would make a book of all of the
01:15:24.400
different tartans that related to the different clans. So that's, that's interesting. I mean,
01:15:31.820
there's so much, there's so much history. You know, I, uh, my wife and I were in, uh, England
01:15:36.560
about a year and a half or so ago. And we went into, if I remember correctly, uh, as we were
01:15:43.720
going to go through the parliament tour, we were able to go into the, and it had a plaque and it
01:15:49.460
said, this is where William Wallace was, you know, tried and convicted. So to be able to see that
01:15:53.640
even, even just little things like that are so fascinating to me. And that castle is, or, or,
01:15:59.060
or that, that hall, I guess it was, uh, is probably, well, it's probably more than a thousand,
01:16:04.080
thousand years old. Oh yeah. It was, it was haunting to me to stand in that place, go through
01:16:10.100
Westminster Abbey and all the different, and then there's a place called St. Bart's hospital. Um,
01:16:16.980
St. Bart's, I believe it's called. And it's, it's, uh, in Smithfield, which is a part of London was
01:16:23.300
maybe 20 miles or something or, uh, but, um, it's, it's away from, from where he was tried and,
01:16:32.460
and it's where he was dragged through the streets and then killed there. There's a plaque on the wall
01:16:38.000
there to, to go to that spot you're describing, um, was really powerful for me because that is where
01:16:48.780
he stood and to think, well, he looked up at those windows. Um, uh, is he was, he was standing here
01:16:58.480
saying, you can, you can take my life, but you won't take my freedom. Um, you, you, you, you can
01:17:07.440
commit, condemn me to death, but I never swore to be your servant. You know, I never swore to be your
01:17:14.260
vassal. Um, I mean that, that was powerful stuff for me. That is powerful. Whatever the actual words
01:17:20.980
were, that's what the message was. Right. Yeah. It goes back to what you were saying is this is,
01:17:27.660
this is the price that needs to be paid. And he was willing to pay that price. Yes. Yeah. Well,
01:17:33.180
Randall, I appreciate our time. Um, what an honor for me to be able to have this conversation. I'm
01:17:38.160
going to tell my boys about it because they were excited. We were going to have this conversation
01:17:40.900
and I know the men listening, I know the overwhelming majority, if not all of them
01:17:45.340
are to varying degrees, deeply impacted by your work and your creativity and everything that you've
01:17:53.820
done and put out there. So we really appreciate you and, and everything that you've done with your
01:17:58.180
life. No, Ryan, thank you so much. An honor for me to be on with you. I was, uh, thrilled to get a
01:18:04.220
chance to do this with you. So thank you. Hope we can do it again. Yeah, we definitely will. Thank
01:18:08.900
you, Randall. Gentlemen, there you go. My conversation with the one and only Randall Wallace. I hope that you
01:18:15.920
enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. It was so powerful, so insightful. And as I said,
01:18:21.520
as I started this, uh, podcast today, he is an incredibly talented man and somebody that I'm
01:18:27.020
certainly inspired by. So if you would guys, make sure you share this. All right. More men need to
01:18:31.120
share and hear, uh, this podcast and the messages that are being delivered from myself. And of course
01:18:38.020
our guests like Randall. Uh, so just take a screenshot, you know, if you're listening to this on
01:18:42.020
iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts, just take a screenshot, share it on Facebook, Instagram,
01:18:47.120
Twitter, wherever you're doing the social media thing, let other people know what you're
01:18:50.920
listening to, what you're getting value from, what the lessons you're learning are and how it's
01:18:54.820
improving and enhancing your life. Uh, also on that same vein, please leave a rating and review
01:18:59.380
because that's a great way to boost up the visibility of the show. Uh, and then, uh, of course,
01:19:04.060
more people will see it. And we know, we know that more men need to hear this message of reclaiming
01:19:09.360
and restoring masculinity. So shoot me a message on Instagram. That's where I'm most active. Let me know
01:19:13.500
what you thought about the conversation, what you took away, what you enjoyed other things that
01:19:17.560
maybe you'd want to hear from Randall Wallace. Cause I imagine he'll probably be coming back
01:19:21.940
on in the near future as well. Uh, and I can hit your questions too. So appreciate you guys being
01:19:27.100
on this path. I hope again, that you enjoyed this one as much as I did. Let us know what you thought
01:19:31.140
about the show, share it, check out the iron council, check out the beard oil. You know what
01:19:34.960
to do. You have your marching orders. All right, guys, we'll be back tomorrow, but until then go out
01:19:39.620
there, take action and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order
01:19:44.140
of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to
01:19:49.120
be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.