Order of Man - RANDALL WALLACE ｜ Becoming Braveheart

00:00:00.000 If you've been following me for any amount of time, you are well aware that my favorite movie

00:00:04.560 of all time is Braveheart. So when I had the chance to have a conversation with the man behind

00:00:09.500 the movie, he wrote the screenplay for Braveheart. His name is Randall Wallace. Of course, I jumped

00:00:14.740 on that opportunity. Today, Randall and I talk about the timeless messages for men found in the

00:00:19.580 movie Braveheart, how and what sacrifices must be made to achieve our goals, how to qualify other

00:00:25.540 men who can serve as our band of brothers, discovering something that calls deeply to you

00:00:31.320 and ultimately how we too can live our lives with the courage and bravery conveyed in the life of

00:00:36.120 William Wallace and Braveheart. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace

00:00:40.960 your fears and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time.

00:00:46.940 Every time you are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life.

00:00:53.900 This is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and

00:00:59.680 done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler.

00:01:05.540 I am the host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement. And I want to welcome you

00:01:10.160 here. I've got a very exciting conversation lined up for you today as I do every week. But this one was

00:01:16.260 very special because Braveheart is my favorite movie. And I actually just introduced Braveheart

00:01:21.780 about a month ago to my two oldest sons and that quickly became one of their favorite movies as well.

00:01:27.760 So this is going to be a good one. You guys are going to enjoy this. I think as much as I certainly

00:01:31.380 did before we get into it, just want to make a very quick mention that my friends at origin and I have

00:01:37.760 released the origin beard oil, which has been in the works now for gosh, probably close to almost a

00:01:45.120 year. I would say we put a lot of work into this a hundred percent made and sourced in America and it is

00:01:50.100 available. So if you want to pick up any of the origin beard oil, there's three different

00:01:55.640 cents as of right now, and we have plans to build this line out. It's a great way to support not only

00:02:01.420 me and what we're doing here, but a great way to support origin and the over 100 people that they

00:02:06.840 employ here in Maine, the United States. It's everything's a hundred percent made and sourced in

00:02:12.400 America. So you can do that on Amazon. And then if you send an email of a screenshot of your review of

00:02:17.780 the product to promotions at origin, MFG.com again, promotions at origin, MFG.com. We're going to

00:02:25.920 actually go ahead and send you another bottle for free. Cause we're trying to blow this thing up

00:02:30.620 as a way to support not only origin, but something that you're probably going to purchase anyways is

00:02:36.680 the beard oil. So if you want to make your beard look good and you want to support American

00:02:40.060 manufacturing in the process, check it out. You can go to Amazon, pick up the origin beard oil,

00:02:44.400 any of the three cents that are available, and then make sure you send that email to get your

00:02:49.320 free bottle. All right, guys, with that said, let me introduce you to Randall Wallace. Now

00:02:53.700 I say legendary Randall Wallace. And I know that's might seem interesting because you may not

00:03:00.520 immediately recognize his name, but I guarantee you, I guarantee you that you are deeply familiar

00:03:06.240 with his work. He's a screenwriter, director, producer. He's a New York times, bestselling author.

00:03:11.360 He's a songwriter. He wrote Braveheart, a man in the iron mask, Pearl Harbor. And we were soldiers

00:03:17.860 among so many other incredible motion pictures. Many of which he actually produced and directed

00:03:23.580 himself. And has of course won several Academy awards. He is an insanely, insanely talented

00:03:29.840 individual, far beyond what I knew when we agreed to do a podcast together. And he's deeply reflective

00:03:36.380 and insightful around the subject of men and masculinity. So you guys are really going to

00:03:41.240 enjoy this conversation. It was incredibly powerful and inspiring for me. I'm sure it will be for you

00:03:45.460 as well. Randall, really good to see you. I'm glad we could finally make this work. I know we've played

00:03:51.060 phone tag for the past couple of months now, it seems like. Great to be on with you, Ryan. I'm glad we

00:03:56.660 can do it. Yeah, me too. I think when we had talked a couple of weeks ago, I, if I remember correctly,

00:04:03.400 I told you that I just watched Braveheart a couple of weeks ago with my two oldest boys. Did I tell

00:04:09.500 you that? You mentioned it, but I want to hear about it again. Yeah, it was, it was so good. I've

00:04:15.800 got a almost 13 year old and a 10 year old and mom was away. And I said, let's just watch Braveheart,

00:04:21.180 you know? And so we sat down, which is one of my favorite movies of all time. In fact, it is my

00:04:25.680 favorite movie of all time. And it was so fun to watch him like yell and cheer and get mad at all the

00:04:32.460 right and appropriate times. And I just thought, this is, this is what it means. They understand

00:04:38.620 inherently what it means to be a man. And I think, I think your character development just perfectly

00:04:44.780 encapsulates what we're doing here, which is why I was looking forward to having this conversation.

00:04:50.960 Wow. Well, when I, I hear that from people I respect and I hear it from strangers I don't yet know,

00:05:00.440 but it makes me feel a kinship with them. The, the sense that, that, that movie resonates with

00:05:13.580 something universal in guys. There was a friend of mine who worked on the movie was telling me a story

00:05:22.360 that, uh, he was doing a scout in Africa for another film. And, uh, he wanted to get permission

00:05:32.800 from the chieftain of the Zulu to, um, to shoot on Zulu territory. And he went to meet the chieftain

00:05:42.420 and the chieftain said, no, you can't do it. It's not possible. And, um, so they sat down to talk and

00:05:48.540 the chieftain said, uh, what of the other movies have you worked on? And, uh, just sort of making

00:05:54.500 the Hollywood movie conversation. And my friend said, I worked on Braveheart and the chieftain

00:06:00.500 jumped up and said, that's the Zulu's favorite movie. Oh, are you serious?

00:06:06.060 And, and, and, and, and in a certain way, that one, that one really, uh, uh, rings the bell for me.

00:06:12.380 The thought that here, the Zulu with their, their tradition of what it means to be a man there on

00:06:19.260 the other side of the world. And they related to that movie strongly as well. He also gave him

00:06:25.120 permission to shoot on the, that's what I was going to ask. He was able to shoot on their land in that 1.00

00:06:30.140 case. Yeah. And, and, um, you know, I wasn't there, so I, I'm not sure of the full details of that story,

00:06:36.840 but, um, but I, I believe it. And, and I also, um, and moved particularly now in this time of COVID and

00:06:46.380 this, this time of fear, because so much of Braveheart is about brave hearts. And, um, and I've been

00:06:56.480 hearing it more and more lately of people watching it. Now it might be that, that some of the guys who

00:07:03.780 were much younger men when it came out, or maybe not even yet men, um, who, who saw the movie and

00:07:12.180 it shaped their manhood. And now they're using it to teach their sons, to share with their sons,

00:07:19.160 what it means. Um, that seems to be happening more and more lately. I mean, manhood is,

00:07:25.420 is certainly under assault. I suppose it always is, but it certainly is now.

00:07:30.580 Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, in the movie itself, that, that storyline is illustrated perfectly that,

00:07:37.660 you know, we have the powers that be that would love to subjugate those individual, strong,

00:07:43.760 courageous, bold, capable individuals and, and keep them as their subjects as opposed to their

00:07:49.100 equals or individual citizens of, of, you know, their own, their own lives and their own people.

00:07:55.160 Yeah. You know, that's, that's really intriguing to me. Um, one of my friends, uh, said once that

00:08:02.880 Hollywood, uh, likes to tout the story of, um, the lone individual taking on the, you know, the,

00:08:11.820 the oppressive group. Um, but as soon as any individual stands up like that, Hollywood does

00:08:17.960 everything it knows how to do to crush him. Um, but I don't think that's just Hollywood in a way. I think

00:08:24.540 that's, I, I think that's a universal experience when, you know, the stalk of wheat that sticks its

00:08:33.920 head up above the other stalks of wheat is they say the one that gets whacked off, um, to, to stand up

00:08:42.760 as an individual, to find yourself, to, to say, this is who I am, no matter what it costs me to say,

00:08:50.440 that's who I am. Um, I don't see how there's any life without that. Um, and yet I know there's a,

00:08:58.440 there's a danger in it. That's why, that's why the brave part is, um, in the equation.

00:09:04.800 Yeah. I mean, there's a real, there's a real risk to it. Even, even you, as you put out your work. So

00:09:09.500 obviously I'm familiar with, with Braveheart and I knew that's part of the conversation we'd been

00:09:13.540 having today, but it was interesting as I was looking through your, your resume, so to speak,

00:09:18.540 and the amount of stories that, that you've written that have impacted my life, I think about

00:09:23.480 Pearl Harbor and, uh, man in the iron mask and the passion of, of, of the Christ and like all of

00:09:29.620 these, these movies, you know, there's definitely, uh, an undertone, I think of the movies that I seen

00:09:37.520 that I've seen you write. And it doesn't seem like these are popular narratives. So there's probably a

00:09:42.320 lot of risk for you and I don't want to put words in your mouth. So correct me if I'm wrong,

00:09:45.660 but it seems to me that the movies that you write and direct and produce aren't the popular

00:09:52.180 narrative that we see in Hollywood today is, is that right?

00:09:56.840 I think that's, I think that's fair to say. Um, and, um, and by the way, like, so I'm working on

00:10:04.640 what we would take to be the sequel to the passion of the Christ and

00:10:08.740 Oh, resurrection of the Christ. Resurrection. That's right. The Christ. And, um, uh, which of

00:10:13.800 course is the, I would call that the Mount Everest of all stories. Um, the most difficult, the most

00:10:21.300 difficult to tell, uh, the most challenging, the most, the most frightening. Um, I think there are

00:10:27.820 some ways in which it's the thing that frightens you most is the thing that you have to go out and face.

00:10:34.640 Um, you, you, you, you can't run. There's no, there's no escape from that. And I think that's

00:10:42.120 been, um, a characteristic for me, um, throughout, throughout my life, uh, to, to be afraid of a lot

00:10:50.920 of things. Uh, but to think I've got to run toward what I fear. Um, I, I've been reading during the,

00:11:00.500 this whole COVID COVID quarantine. I, um, I got inspired by Jordan Peterson's lectures on Genesis

00:11:08.120 and, um, and I grew up Baptist. So I've read the Bible every day, my whole life. And, um,

00:11:20.260 that inspired me to go back to the beginning and read it all the way through and to see it as a,

00:11:28.700 as a whole story. Um, and, um, I'm now into the gospels. Now I've been, I've been reading a lot.

00:11:36.280 It's, it's, it's addictive. If you start doing that, it's, that is, that is one mind blowing book,

00:11:44.020 the Bible. And it really is. It's interesting because let's, let's strip just for a second.

00:11:50.180 And I'm Christian as well, but let's just strip for a second, the religious and spiritual undertone

00:11:55.940 of the Bible itself, just the stories alone and the messages and the morals and the lessons that

00:12:02.240 can be learned and extracted regardless of what your faith happens to be, or your lack of

00:12:06.940 is, can actually be a very, very powerful tool in every person's life. That's the power of story.

00:12:12.800 Yeah, exactly right. And I loved Jordan Peterson's emphasis to say the, these stories have lasted

00:12:23.940 because they are relevant in all cultures and across all times. And, um, and that resonated with

00:12:33.360 something I felt for a long time as a storyteller, which is that the audience is creating the story

00:12:40.320 just as much as a storyteller is creating the story, what the audience is listening to, responding to,

00:12:48.340 um, a, one of, uh, both of my sons and I, I have three and I believe all three of my sons will be

00:12:56.600 storytellers. Um, the, one of my sons said the, the best part of being a writer in his experience is

00:13:03.860 that you get to be the first audience of the story and wrapped up in that phrase is the sense that

00:13:10.920 you're not, you're not really creating the story. It's telling itself to you. It's, it's, it's finding

00:13:21.960 its voice within you and your context and you're breathing it out. And the way people respond is, um,

00:13:30.860 uh, is shaping you in, let me give you an example. I have a friend, Jack Bernstein and Jack is one of

00:13:38.220 my oldest friends and he's a writer and we are, our careers parallel each other. We, we started out

00:13:45.960 about the same time. Um, I was a story editor on a television series and I had to hire a staff and

00:13:54.480 Jack was the first person I ever hired and he went on to write Ace Ventura. Um, another one of our,

00:14:01.580 our favorites in this household. Oh golly. I mean, and, and to have a friend like Jack is, um, um,

00:14:10.100 an incredible blessing for one thing on, on paper, he would seem to be completely different from me

00:14:18.320 in politics and, in, in point of view. Um, and we sort of recognized the brotherhood from,

00:14:26.420 from the very beginning. And he was the first person I showed the, the first draft of Braveheart to.

00:14:33.980 And I believed honestly, Ryan, that he was going to tell me, look, it's a mess. Um, it's, um,

00:14:44.320 it's a, there, there, there may be the kernel of something in here, but you've got a whole lot of

00:14:50.340 work to, to even start to find the story. And we sat down and he looked at, we were for breakfast and

00:14:57.120 at a breakfast place we love to frequent. And he looked across the table and said, I think this is

00:15:03.040 the best thing you've ever written. And you could have knocked me over. Um, and, and that to me speaks

00:15:11.660 to that, that need that we don't live in a vacuum. Um, and, and also that incredible vulnerability you

00:15:21.220 have of, thank God, Jack Bernstein was there to say that, that he wasn't, um, he wasn't competitive.

00:15:31.560 Uh, he wasn't, um, um, offended that there was anything in the material that, that didn't match

00:15:40.080 with his, his thinking. Um, he was like, this, there's something here, there's something terrific

00:15:48.160 here. And, and we need that. We, we need the right person at the right time. I mean, Lennon and

00:15:55.340 McCartney did it with each other. And the, the, the annals of writing are full of stories like that.

00:16:02.840 I can appreciate you talking about this because even in the context of this movement that we've

00:16:07.600 created over the past six years, I see that as well. You know, I, I, when I started, I started it

00:16:12.340 as a hobby and I've had so many wonderful opportunities to talk with men like yourself

00:16:17.040 and other successful men. And at times I feel compelled and called to do this work. Uh, and

00:16:24.020 that I'm not necessarily the quote unquote leader of the work that we're doing, that I'm the biggest

00:16:30.600 recipient of it. And the work is helping me uncover things that I didn't know about myself,

00:16:36.620 helping me to develop and mature and grow as a father and a husband and a business owner and

00:16:43.240 community leader. And so I can definitely appreciate when you talk about the writer or the creator or

00:16:51.980 the artist, we'll just say being the biggest recipient or just the first audience, I think

00:16:58.540 is the term you used of the story that's being written. I can certainly see that in what's going

00:17:02.640 on here. And I, I'd like you to talk a little bit more about that because I think what you're

00:17:10.520 describing is, is kind of the way I find the story. So when you're, when you're shaping this,

00:17:19.980 I suspect what you're, what you're doing is you're looking for what's relevant to your life,

00:17:25.760 what you feel your life needs, what would excite you or inspire you or interest you. We,

00:17:32.360 we look where we're interested. Right. And in doing that uncover surprises. We didn't know. I mean,

00:17:42.000 I would imagine that's how you look for, for what your content's going to be about, how you're going

00:17:48.880 to shape what you're doing to grow it from nothing into this. Right. Yeah, I do. I look for opportunities

00:17:55.760 that, um, like you said, that excite me, that interest me. Um, I'm willing to try new things.

00:18:02.100 And you talked about the level of vulnerability when you put out your work. I, I know what that

00:18:07.960 feels like. I know, you know what that feels like, but you're basically asking other people,

00:18:11.740 like you were talking with, uh, with, with Jack, I believe is his name to judge me, like judge me,

00:18:18.640 judge everything I think about, judge the way I write, judge the way I work, judge the way my mind

00:18:22.840 works. That's a very difficult thing to do. So I can certainly appreciate that boldness and that,

00:18:27.920 that courage. And then I can only imagine what it's like to know, you talk about the Zulu tribe to know

00:18:33.860 that it's it, that your work has directly and positively impacted millions and millions of

00:18:39.460 people. That is amazing to me. Yeah, that's, uh, um, I, I have to say it's, it's overwhelming.

00:18:48.800 Actually, it's like, I, I, I can't really think about it very much. Um, I found Ryan in the,

00:18:58.420 the last few years, um, well, I, I have an eight year old son and, um, and, um, you know,

00:19:08.720 most people I meet think I'm his grandfather. And then when they find out I'm his dad, they apologize.

00:19:14.080 And I go, look in Tennessee, I would be his great grandfather. Don't be embarrassed. Uh, but, um,

00:19:23.260 the, the way children respond is without any filter as you know, of course. So when you,

00:19:33.640 you do something like you take your favorite movie and you show it to your sons for the first time,

00:19:41.700 there's a level of vulnerability in that too, because there's gotta be a part, whether conscious

00:19:47.720 or unconscious, where you say, what if what matters intensely to me doesn't speak to them at all?

00:19:58.080 What will I go then? And, and I've had it happen. Uh, my, my eight year old loves music as I do. Uh,

00:20:06.280 and, uh, all, all my sons love music. And, and I started, um, my career with the goal of becoming a

00:20:14.680 singer songwriter. And, um, and I still love music. I mean, as somebody I know once observed it,

00:20:23.800 if, if music's in you, you, you never lose it. You never lose the, the bug, the desire. And, um,

00:20:30.840 and I still write songs and I'll, I'll play them, uh, in my truck when we're, we're out riding to

00:20:38.580 breakfast or something. I'll, I'll listen to the mix and the, the, the stereo. Sure. And, and if my

00:20:46.220 son goes, what's that? I go, well, it's a song. And if he goes, turn it up, then it's a hit.

00:20:57.920 You know, you know, it's good. You know, you did good. Yeah. And if he goes, can you turn that down

00:21:04.020 so I can play Minecraft or whatever you think, can you, then it's not a hit. Um, and, and, and there's

00:21:12.500 a, there's a certain immediacy about that. But for me to, um, um, I've told the story before, but I,

00:21:23.700 it's, it's, it's one of the most relevant to me about Braveheart. Um, I hadn't done a, uh, a screening

00:21:31.640 of it in a long time. And a friend in Austin asked me to do a charity screening, um, for the related to

00:21:39.700 the Austin film festival and rented a theater. And I, I have a print of the movie and went down and

00:21:45.780 showed it and, and I hadn't sat in a theater and seen it in 15 years or, or more. And, uh, so I,

00:21:54.960 I watched it as an audience member and then walked up on the stage to, to do a Q and a. And the first

00:22:03.560 person who stood up was in the front row, a 19 year old woman, a girl, really woman. Sure. And she

00:22:11.520 stood up young woman. And she said, Mr. Wallace, I don't have a question. I just want to tell you

00:22:17.520 something. My fiance died six months ago. And he told me before he died, he wanted me to watch

00:22:24.600 Braveheart. So I would understand the way he loved me. And that was one of the most overwhelming and

00:22:33.940 powerful statements to me of, um, um, of a story that in a way I feel is, is mine and of me and from

00:22:46.740 me. And in a way I feel is, was far older than me and, and timeless, you know, before me and seems to

00:22:56.940 go on after. And, and I got to be there when it came and I got to speak it and it rang, you know,

00:23:09.160 with other people, it rang with the actors, it rang with the director, it rang with the composer and it,

00:23:15.980 and it, and it, and it got out into the world. And I, I think that that's, if, if I were to really

00:23:25.560 think about it, the, the stories of chaos theory and how you get a wave because a butterfly flapped

00:23:32.100 his wings and Indonesia, and that created a, a wave in Malibu or something. Um, I think all the 0.99

00:23:40.840 things we do in our lives, we're just flapping the butterfly wings and, and they make a ripple

00:23:47.280 and, and it's in the hands of God where they go. How, how do you, it's hard for me to actually

00:23:55.060 even wrap my head around somebody not liking Braveheart and some of the other works that you

00:23:58.380 have, but how do you deal with, well, you talked about your son when he's like, turn that down so

00:24:03.080 I can play Minecraft or knowing that there's people who don't actually appreciate your work.

00:24:07.960 Is that something that you've had to contend with and wrestle with? And, and do you have ways of

00:24:13.960 dealing with that, knowing that there's going to be people who don't appreciate it, don't like it

00:24:19.180 and don't, um, for lack of a better term, validate, I guess, that's not the right word,

00:24:24.420 but the work that you're doing, I think you understand. I do. And, and, and you, you have, um,

00:24:35.740 you, you're really vulnerable as, as an artist. And I, I think, I think we're all vulnerable in

00:24:43.320 different ways. I mean, I'm not sure that there's anyone more vulnerable than a man who is in love

00:24:49.960 with a woman and doesn't know how to tell her. Um, that's a good point. You know, it's, it's, um, 1.00

00:24:56.880 and when I've taught screenwriting at, at, at different times, um, I, I always say to the class,

00:25:04.560 the odds of you becoming a professional screenwriter, like making a living doing it,

00:25:09.300 those are long odds, but the odds that you'll want to tell someone you love them, um, that's

00:25:14.880 almost a hundred percent. And, um, and that, that's what we're, that's what we're trying to get

00:25:20.060 at. And, and the vulnerability, um, I mean, I think the, the biggest thing we do in our lives

00:25:26.240 is, is take care of that little flame inside us. Um, that's the one we have to nurture. And,

00:25:34.860 um, I, I came across the passage just the other day, cause as I say, in my Bible reading, I'm into

00:25:41.520 the gospels now. And when Jesus says, you know, what does it profit you if you would gain the whole

00:25:46.900 world and lose your own soul in that protecting that your soul is so vital? Well, where I find,

00:25:58.400 um, I have to do it is there's the, the daily, the daily nurturing that you do the, I don't know

00:26:07.740 who said it, but that it's what you do every day that shapes your destiny, right? Uh, your daily

00:26:14.960 habits. I'm a big one about daily habits, but they're also become watershed moments. Um, one of my,

00:26:23.400 my mentors in school, his name was Thomas Langford and he was Dean of the divinity school at Duke.

00:26:30.060 He was head of the religion department when I was a religion major there. And he was my mentor. And,

00:26:36.920 um, he said that when you reach a big decision in your life, you don't make it in a vacuum. You're,

00:26:46.580 you're really standing on all the other decisions you've made on a lot of other little decisions

00:26:53.580 that create a trajectory. And that trajectory points the way of what your decision is going to be.

00:27:01.140 And, and so I, I believe in all the little disciplines, all the little lacks of courage

00:27:06.640 you make every day, like getting up and, and making your bed and, and eating well and taking care of

00:27:14.780 yourself and, and doing every little thing you can do to pick yourself up by your bootstraps because

00:27:21.600 time's going to come when you need your courage. And, and the big sort of critical times that I see

00:27:29.900 are right before a movie comes out, there's a prayer that I habitually say. And, um, and it's,

00:27:40.380 it's, it's when I feel pretty desperate because I can feel my life hanging in the balance. I feel my

00:27:46.140 soul hanging in the balance. And it's not about what the world will think of my work. It's what I

00:27:55.700 will think of what the world thinks of my work. And perceive you. Yes. So I have to get on my knees

00:28:04.240 and I have to pray to God almighty that I won't make God out of what other people think,

00:28:11.640 um, that I won't make God out of the box office or the critical response or what my friends say

00:28:17.400 or any of that, that, and, and that's a hard one. It's a, it's a, it's a super hard one because

00:28:24.400 we're wired to, to judge, um, ourselves and our own behavior by what we're seeing reflected.

00:28:34.360 Um, but then there has to be that, that other deeper thing of no matter what they say, this is,

00:28:42.200 this is who I, who I believe myself to be before, um, we were soldiers came out and I had,

00:28:49.540 I had invested my own money and we were soldiers. I'd bought the movie rights with my own money.

00:28:55.080 I'd put years. Right. We were soldiers or direct. We were you, both of them.

00:28:59.520 I wrote, directed and produced and produced it. Okay. Yeah. All of them. And I, I, I bought the book

00:29:05.860 from, um, uh, Lieutenant General Hal Moore and Joseph Galloway. They had, they had written this

00:29:12.800 fantastic book and then I was able to acquire the, the movie rights from them. Okay. And

00:29:19.380 and then I developed the screenplay and, um, and, um, and my father passed away, uh, during the

00:29:27.820 completion of that movie. Um, and my father died on nine 11 and, um, and they, the hymn that's at the

00:29:36.560 end of, we were soldiers called mansions of the Lord. I wrote about eight days after my father died.

00:29:44.800 So, so there was a lot of, a lot going on in that time for me. And, um, when a few months later,

00:29:54.340 when we were ready to, to test the movie for the first time, have the first public public screening

00:30:00.440 of it, um, um, where you get feedback and, and, and there are always these wannabe filmmakers,

00:30:08.880 snarky little snots that, that, that come to those things and they, they love to see how 0.90

00:30:16.900 they're, they're like trolls. Right. And they want to see, you know, um, you know, I want to enjoy 0.98

00:30:23.900 graffiti on something and, um, they'll write, you know, the office comments and the studio

00:30:29.760 reacts to them like, Oh gosh, somebody thought blah, blah, blah. And right. You know, you do that

00:30:34.500 more credence than it actually deserves. Sure. Yeah. And, um, and also there's the fact that you,

00:30:40.920 you may get, you may get the, the main body of the audience to sort of shrugging and going around.

00:30:46.140 So what I don't get it, you know, it does, or I do get it and I don't care. I mean, so, um, uh, it was

00:30:55.160 the day we were going to test the movie and I called my mother because she had just lost my dad and I

00:31:01.340 was calling her every day. And, and I said, how are you mama? And she said, well, I'm, I'm doing okay.

00:31:07.620 How are you doing? And I said, well, I'm, I'm good, but I'm really nervous today. We're going to

00:31:13.040 test the movie. And she said, well, why does that make you nervous? And I said, well, mama,

00:31:19.200 you know, if you put your, your money and your blood and your sweat and your tears into something,

00:31:25.400 um, and you know, they're going to be people who just want to be critical. It makes you nervous.

00:31:32.260 And my mother said, well, honey, if they crucified Jesus Christ,

00:31:36.640 they're going to be some people that don't like you.

00:31:41.120 Just like mom would say, right?

00:31:43.040 Just like mama would say. And it was one of the best things anybody ever says to me. It,

00:31:49.020 it, it, it stays with me in a pretty much every situation.

00:31:53.120 I think that's a great way to deal with it is it's the reality of the situation. You know,

00:31:57.960 sometimes I catch myself hoping optimistically and a little bit delusionally that everybody will like

00:32:06.040 what I say, because it just seems to me that this is, these aren't controversial things I'm sharing

00:32:11.520 or talking about. And inevitably I face pushback. Um, but I've, I've realized that the more we deal

00:32:17.420 with it realistically, that you are going to face feedback negatively and trolls like you're talking

00:32:23.660 about, once you just accept that it becomes less frustrating or painful to actually have to deal

00:32:29.740 with it because it is what it is. And you can just move on because you know, you're going to be

00:32:33.440 confronted with that. Yes. And you know, I think that I, I hadn't thought of this before, Ryan,

00:32:39.340 but as you say that it, it strikes me, this might, might well be true. Um, I know that in my life,

00:32:46.440 almost every really close friend that I have had, I've had a fist fight with, um, not so much,

00:32:57.680 you know, as an adult, the fist fight becomes figurative, not, uh, not, not actual low in some

00:33:04.400 cases. Yeah. Actual. And, and, and, and I noticed that there was something about the fact

00:33:14.240 that the friend was willing to step up and fight. And I was willing to fight back that made us

00:33:25.720 understand something about each other and respect each other. Yes. Like to know that, which to me is

00:33:33.080 one of the most insidious things about the message that is sent to particularly to young people, which

00:33:41.580 is don't tell us anything that we might not want to hear. Um, you know, the term of microaggressions

00:33:50.160 and safe spaces. And because when you get into warrior cultures, they, they seek, they look for

00:34:00.480 your, your most vulnerable points and then they hit you there. Of course. And that is a, it in a

00:34:08.720 certain way is, is a, it's a show of respect. It's, it's a test certainly, but they don't do it

00:34:18.140 thinking you're going to fold up and curl into a helpless ball. They're, they're saying, we know how

00:34:25.240 tough you are. We acknowledge it. We know you can, you know, you can, you can take a shot in the solar

00:34:31.880 plexus and you can give it back. And, and if we're going to go into battle, we won't use standing

00:34:39.180 beside us. Um, and, and, and that's a thing that I think that, that I think we've lost. It's not

00:34:47.520 to say to people, I, I think of you as being so weak that I have to walk on eggshells around you.

00:34:58.700 Um, I don't want to be around anybody like that. I don't want to be around anybody that's trying to

00:35:04.780 walk eggshells around me as far as just, you know, Bob Dylan, um, wrote a song that I learned years ago.

00:35:13.380 Um, and the, the one verse was, um, you see me on the street. You always act surprised. You say,

00:35:24.240 how are you? Good luck, but you don't mean it when you know, as well as me, you'd rather see me

00:35:29.940 paralyzed. Why don't you just come out once and scream it? And now, now that's a, that's a genius

00:35:39.280 Dylan lyric, but, but it sort of says, maybe if we actually would air out honestly, what we're

00:35:50.100 thinking to each other, we could find respect for each other. Um, now I know there's a, a thing of,

00:35:57.800 it's not necessarily good to, like when you go to therapists for marital counseling or couples

00:36:05.120 therapy or something, some will go, well, let's just talk about the things you hate about each

00:36:09.560 other. And others will say, well, let's start with what you love about each other. You know,

00:36:13.860 what drew you together? I mean, I, I'm not a psychotherapist. I don't, uh, I don't understand

00:36:19.740 the dimensions of that, but what I do know that, that honesty is powerful and the willingness to,

00:36:27.020 to step up and go, I can be hit and I can keep moving. Boy, that's an incredible strength.

00:36:37.460 That's certainly one that I want my sons to know. And, and I want to model for them as best I can.

00:36:44.620 I, it reminds me of, of something I've thought about over the past several months. So about two

00:36:49.260 and a half years ago, I got heavy into jujitsu and I've been doing that solid for, like I said,

00:36:53.580 two and a half years. And I, I love it for a lot of reasons, but one of the main reasons that I

00:36:58.260 really enjoy it is occasionally we'll have somebody new come. And it's interesting that

00:37:04.480 those who can't humble themselves enough or get back in the fight will leave on their own accord.

00:37:11.880 But I, because it's hard, it's difficult, you know, it's, it's, it's humbling. It's humiliating

00:37:16.080 in a lot of ways. It's physically excruciating. There's a lot of pain, mental and emotional and

00:37:21.280 physical that goes with it. But I know that any individual that can get into a physical

00:37:27.180 altercation with me in a controlled environment and come back again after getting his butt kicked 0.81

00:37:33.480 or me getting my butt kicked and me coming back, I want to know that those are the men I want to 0.92

00:37:39.140 spend time with because, and we may not ever face in a lot of cases, and we've been fortunate in this 0.95

00:37:44.920 way, but we may not face a violent or physical encounter. We may, but I just want to know that the

00:37:50.660 guy next to me is tough enough to say and do the things that he may need to say and do when

00:37:57.140 the rubber meets the road. And that's who I'm looking for in a brother.

00:38:01.480 Yes. And in yourself.

00:38:04.060 Definitely. That's what I'm trying to develop in myself.

00:38:06.560 That's right. So in a certain way, that practice is, is, is brotherhood more than anything else.

00:38:17.720 You're it's, it's, it's not, I mean, it's, it's simultaneously an individual journey and a

00:38:25.400 journey that you make together because without those opponents, um, you can't, you can't find

00:38:33.700 that. And I, you know, I, I'm into martial arts too, or always was, I'm not so much now. And now it's

00:38:40.400 that, you know, fighting with my eight year old, which can be just as hard as anything else.

00:38:46.460 Oh man. Yeah. As one of my buddies said, when he hits you, it's like, you're getting hit with a

00:38:52.300 frozen chicken. He's eight years old and he just, but, uh, that's good. That's what you want. You

00:38:59.260 want as painful as it can be. Right. Absolutely. And, and, but, but I think that what you said is,

00:39:04.900 is, is, is profound. Um, that's the way you, um, you're, you're going through this pain,

00:39:13.560 but the biggest part is whether you can show up and come back from it. Um, I started a few years

00:39:22.460 back. Um, some friends invited me up to Laird Hamilton's house and Laird Hamilton's the super

00:39:28.300 surfer and just incredible surfer. And, um, um, and he was doing a pool workout, which they,

00:39:37.920 which developed into what he and his wife, uh, Gabby call, um, extreme, um, pool training,

00:39:46.780 but they're also doing gym workouts. And, and I, I'm much better now, but I'm barely a swimmer. I'm a

00:39:56.060 sinker. Um, and, and it's, it's terrifying. I mean, it's, it's, uh, intimidating anyway to, to go out

00:40:03.700 and you go, okay, I want you to pick up those 40 pound dumbbells and jump into the pool and the pool 0.98

00:40:10.760 is 11 feet deep. And like, well, I'm sorry, these, these two things don't. And, uh, so, so there's that.

00:40:19.780 And, and, and you realize that when, if you keep coming back, then you see other new guys show up

00:40:26.520 and, you know, you know, that they're feeling what you felt right. My first day in the gym,

00:40:32.960 first day in the gym with this group of highly fit guys, they had said, okay, first thing before we

00:40:41.340 start, before we start, everybody do 200 burpees and I hadn't been doing burpees and you can get

00:40:52.080 winded after 20 or so. And, um, and, and I realized as I was, you know, you, you do, you do some,

00:41:02.540 you catch your breath, you do some, you catch your breath, you're plenty of opportunities to quit.

00:41:06.520 But I realized that, that it was a test. Uh, it was like, okay, Mr. Hollywood, you want to come up

00:41:13.800 here? Let's see how much you want it and how much you're willing to keep going. And, and when I

00:41:20.700 finished the 200, I was in the group. Right. You have a seat at the table. You earned that seat at the

00:41:26.640 table. I had a seat and I, I, and I love that. I, I, that made me want to be there. And there are some

00:41:35.700 people that go, well, if it's going to be like this, I, and of course I was, I don't want to do

00:41:39.940 that. Macho. It's all that. Of course, every bit of that, but I wanted to, it was a group I wanted to

00:41:50.040 be a part of. And that test was part of why I wanted to be a part of. I didn't know that's what

00:41:56.660 I was going to encounter, but I knew I was going to encounter stuff like that. And, and I think,

00:42:02.040 I think we shortchange people when we don't give them an opportunity because you don't give

00:42:12.060 self-respect. You don't give esteem. You, that's something somebody has to find for themselves.

00:42:22.280 Right. They have to earn that. Earn that. And I think maybe you give them the opportunity for it,

00:42:27.600 but you know, it's like in our modern day and it's so easy to, to hammer this, but they, you know,

00:42:34.180 everybody gets a trophy and heck up. Look, I, I coached T-ball and, and I, I remember to this day,

00:42:43.140 I remember when I was in the Peewee league in Memphis, Tennessee at, at my, the church league. And I was,

00:42:52.820 I was maybe six or seven years old, but I had made the team and I wasn't happy with the position.

00:43:01.820 I wanted to be the pitcher and I wasn't the pitcher yet. And the, but I remember walking by a kid and

00:43:10.180 the coach was telling him he hadn't made the team and he was sobbing and I've never forgotten it. Like I,

00:43:16.200 I don't want anybody left out. I, I would have hoped. And I'm sure the, the coach that was telling

00:43:22.620 him that was trying to figure out a way in himself to, to try to say, you're not big enough yet, or

00:43:30.720 you're not skilled enough yet, but I'm going to work with you that, you know, there would have been

00:43:37.020 something like, okay, we've got the guys that get the uniforms, but, but if you want to play,

00:43:42.000 you keep coming back here and I'm going to help you that that's what I tried to do with,

00:43:47.280 with T-ball when I was there. But, um, but I think we, we lose something when you go, well,

00:43:58.120 you, you got a trophy, even though, you know, at the age of six or seven that you didn't try,

00:44:05.420 you didn't show up for practice. You didn't do anything. Your parents signed you up and they

00:44:10.500 paid the fee. So you got the, here's your, here's your stuff. It's like, I'm not sure that's not the

00:44:16.940 worst thing you can do for men very quickly. I just want to hit the pause button. I wanted to

00:44:22.180 introduce you to the iron council. If you're not already familiar with it, uh, Randall and I, uh,

00:44:27.440 today have talked quite a bit about in this conversation, the power of brotherhood and

00:44:30.940 finding other men who are qualified to be in your corner. Uh, but unfortunately it seems to be

00:44:35.540 increasingly difficult, uh, to find those type of men and develop powerful bonds that will help

00:44:40.980 both of you succeed. And that's where the iron council comes into play because inside the iron

00:44:45.780 council, there are over 800 men who are all like-minded. Uh, we're all working towards the

00:44:50.400 same goals and objectives. I'm very active there as well. Uh, these are incredibly motivated and

00:44:55.960 ambitious men, and they have not only the desire to succeed, but to help all of the men inside the

00:45:01.000 iron council do the same. So if you're ready to band with us, if you want to banded brothers and

00:45:05.420 you want qualified men in your corner and see, you see the power and the value of that, then join us

00:45:10.680 at order of man.com slash iron council. Again, that's order of man.com slash iron council. You

00:45:16.460 can do that after the show for now, Randall and I will get back to it. Yeah, that's, that's a good

00:45:22.740 point. You know, I think about my, my coaches as I was growing up and my mom, she raised me primarily

00:45:28.480 on her own, but she always had me involved in competitive sports to her credit. Cause that was 0.51

00:45:32.720 very important for me. Uh, and one of my favorite coaches, in fact, I still talk with him and we

00:45:38.240 still have a great friendship, uh, nearly 20 years later now, at this point, uh, he cut me from the

00:45:44.060 basketball team. He pulled me from my starting catcher position in baseball, my senior year.

00:45:50.260 Uh, I had other coaches grab me by the face mask and jerk me around and get in my face and yell at me

00:45:56.260 and others where all they had to do was look down and disgust and disappointment. These coaches were

00:46:01.080 not easy on me at all. And yet these are the men that I have and hold in some of the highest regard

00:46:06.980 of the men that I know because they weren't easy on me. I always knew they cared, but that didn't mean

00:46:13.020 that they were going to take it easy on me. In fact, they were, I think, rougher on me because I,

00:46:16.220 they did care about what we did and how we performed. Right. Right. I always wanted the rough

00:46:22.100 coach too. And obviously we know that, well, I wanted the fair and the caring coach. And, um,

00:46:31.820 but to me, caring meant strong and attentive, certainly not abusive because I know it's,

00:46:40.460 I'm sure you did. I had coaches that, that I lost all respect. Oh yeah. You've got the coaches

00:46:45.320 that scream and yell and are just completely belligerent. That's different. Of course.

00:46:49.920 Right. And, and, and, and parents, I remember sitting in, uh, watching my nephew play a basketball

00:46:57.580 game and, and there was a, a parent sitting behind me and he was clearly out of shape and, and, and I

00:47:07.400 don't think it exercised a day in, you know, the last three decades and he was screaming at his son

00:47:14.720 for what his son should be doing and out on the court. And it was all I could do not to turn around

00:47:21.820 and say, tell you what, at halftime, let's get out there, you and me, and you show your kid. Uh,

00:47:28.900 I mean, not that I was any great Shakespeare ball, but I, but I knew better than to yell at my,

00:47:34.260 at my nephew. Right. And, uh, but you know, it's, um, it's so tricky knowing what, um, what will work.

00:47:47.960 You know, I, I read, uh, once, I think it was in a John Eldridge book, or maybe I just, I heard a

00:47:55.420 lecture that he was giving that, um, when he said that, that fathers wound their sons without meaning

00:48:04.140 to, right. That everybody gets a wound, uh, uh, uh, and a comment that the father didn't mean to make

00:48:13.460 or, or didn't mean in the way the son took it. Um, that, that the son feels he's being told by his dad,

00:48:20.380 he's not man enough to face life. And I remember, um, before my oldest son went off to college and

00:48:29.960 how old are your sons? Uh, I've got a 13 year old, a 10 year old and a four year old. And then I have

00:48:36.680 a daughter in there as well. And she's, uh, a eight, she will be turning eight. Oh, wow. One of my

00:48:43.160 buddies as a, uh, has two sons and a daughter. And he told me his, his wife said, we ought to have one

00:48:48.360 more to even it out. And he said, then we need another son to even out. That's a great way to

00:48:55.340 put it. We got a handful with her. That's so true. Uh, but, uh, the, um, when your sons get ready to go

00:49:05.940 off to college, um, or, or your children do that. So that's a bit, I think particularly the sons going

00:49:12.380 off is a big day for dads, um, probably the, the equivalent for daughters might be her wedding day. 0.63

00:49:20.760 Sure. Uh, and I remember from my father anyway, when my, my sister got married, that was a,

00:49:28.540 that was a deep and complex day. And, um, and for me, when my, my oldest son was about to, um,

00:49:37.520 go off to school, um, I was praying and, um, I, I asked God what God wanted me to do about my son.

00:49:53.440 What, what should I, how should I be? How should I be with my son? And it's funny. I've never thought

00:50:02.100 of God as the Oracle of Delphi, you know, that you just go and say, okay, here's, here's a problem.

00:50:09.840 Tell me what to do, or here's, here's my to-do list for you. So get busy God.

00:50:16.540 Yeah. Get this taken care of for me.

00:50:18.560 Although I, I succumb to those things all the time, but I, but, but consciously I know that that's not

00:50:24.920 quite how it's supposed to be, but I did actually ask God a question and I waited and listened and

00:50:34.840 immediately I got a sense, uh, like a clear, uh, of course, not an audible voice, but I got a clear

00:50:43.980 voice, uh, that said, trust him. And I immediately began to argue with that. And I,

00:50:53.860 um, and I was like, what do you mean? Trust him? I guess God or trust your son, trust my son.

00:51:00.980 Got it. Yeah. Like, like I felt God was saying to me, trust your son. And, and I started to argue

00:51:08.520 back with God to say, I don't, it, because it was such a clear message. I felt I needed to argue. I mean,

00:51:16.540 it was clear, it was clear what, what I was hearing. It's like, this doesn't make sense. I trust my son

00:51:21.880 more than anybody trusts his son. What are you talking about? I don't get, and then suddenly I

00:51:26.300 went, no, I don't. All I've been doing ever since I realized that time was coming for him to go off to

00:51:35.100 school is to be giving him advice. I'm saying now watch out for this and I'll be sure you do that.

00:51:41.660 Now, you know, a good way to organize your day would be a good, and, and, and what,

00:51:46.060 what I'm really telling him is I don't trust you. I don't think you're ready. If I thought you were

00:51:53.760 ready, I wouldn't be doing it. It's like that scene in the Godfather when, when Don Corleone is,

00:52:00.060 is talking with Michael and he goes, I keep going over this Bozzini business. You know,

00:52:05.900 you're going to be assassinated. It's going to work this way. And it, it's an incredible scene. 0.98

00:52:11.180 Right. And as virtually every scene in that movie is incredible. And, um, and the message is,

00:52:19.860 I don't think you're ready. And what that answered immediately answered prayer was for me was

00:52:28.860 let your son, let your son go trust him because he is ready and let him know, you know, he's ready.

00:52:37.760 He's, he's going to encounter things. He's, he didn't see coming. Right. Of course. Sure. But he's,

00:52:45.620 but he is ready to deal with those things. And of course he was. And that is, uh, that is really,

00:52:53.280 John Eldridge talks about that a lot that, and I'm paraphrasing here, but he says that every man

00:52:59.200 is looking to answer the question, am I enough? Right. Am I capable? Am I a man? And so,

00:53:07.760 we're looking for ways to prove it. And I think we're looking for that validation from our fathers

00:53:12.340 as well. Do our fathers honor and recognize us as being man enough to handle whatever may come

00:53:18.580 our way. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And, and by the way, I, I have to credit John Eldridge for,

00:53:25.880 for that prayer. I had listened to him speak at a friend's house and he had said, if you want to do

00:53:32.440 something scary, get down on your knees and ask God what he thinks of you. And, and it was,

00:53:39.080 I had come directly home and done that. And before I asked God what he thought of me, I asked him what

00:53:45.260 I should do about my sons first. Um, now that's me giving Eldridge credit. I also, at that very night,

00:53:53.340 I had read his book, uh, wild at heart, such a great book. And I went up and said, you know,

00:53:58.900 John, uh, I'm Randall Wallace and I wrote brave heart and, and, and you quote it a whole bunch of

00:54:06.380 times in every, in every case you say, William Wallace says this and William Wallace says that

00:54:11.740 well, William Wallace never said any of that. I did. You said it. Give credit to the guy that

00:54:20.740 wrote it. And he laughed and said, yeah, you're right. That's a good point. Cause I've quoted

00:54:24.660 William Wallace too. And I'm going to have to change that now that you say that and say,

00:54:28.380 Randall Wallace says, Hey, listen, now you get me on my high horse. So it's, it's on the wall of the

00:54:35.280 United States air force Academy in Colorado. Um, they may take our lives, but they'll never take

00:54:42.980 our freedom. And under it is William Wallace. Well, William Wallace did not say that.

00:54:47.900 Oh, that's good. No, that's so true. And, uh, it, it is, you know, you bring up an interesting

00:54:55.060 point because I know, and you're not related to William Wallace, correct?

00:54:59.600 I believe I am. I absolutely believe, but, but that's one of those assertions like, uh,

00:55:06.840 you know, saying this doesn't cause cancer, right? Right. Nobody can prove it. Right. Right.

00:55:12.840 But, um, there is no, there's no known, uh, way of getting William Wallace's DNA or, uh, there,

00:55:24.400 there, there are only a couple of pictures in Scotland that they think might be likenesses of

00:55:30.920 him. Uh, there are no records of his, of his descendants. Um, but I am convinced in my bones

00:55:39.500 that I'm, um, um, that I'm related. Uh, but that's just strictly, uh, um, I would call it a

00:55:47.120 spiritual, uh, yes, the spiritual sense. Yeah. And I, I feel that too about things. I almost

00:55:52.560 wonder as you say that, if you were, you know, meant, meant to tell his story, I guess the question

00:55:57.360 is how much with his limited information that we have about William Wallace, how do you decide

00:56:02.740 which liberties to take in this telling of, of his story? Um, man, that's a great question. So

00:56:11.620 I have, um, I have a practice that really troubles people, especially teachers of writing and research

00:56:22.720 oriented people. Um, and I think it troubles them because, um, I understand the notion that

00:56:34.220 we can't make up our own facts, of course, but the, but the problem in that is that we, we all can look

00:56:45.380 at exactly the same thing and see entirely different things based on our values and our, our, our

00:56:53.840 prejudices. Um, so I don't, um, the, well, the, the kind of classic academic way, the way even writing

00:57:05.620 is taught in school, um, maybe not so much creative writing, but the way it was taught when I was in

00:57:11.440 school was the teacher would want you to do an outline and there would be a format. And my, my

00:57:18.840 eight-year-old is even being taught some of this now of, um, what's your opening? What, who are your

00:57:27.960 characters? What is the character's arc? What they don't use that for eight-year-olds yet, but what are

00:57:35.500 their, what's his challenge or, you know, and, and what's the ending like, and how do you sum up

00:57:41.360 and all those, and they want to, they want to have a cookbook of how to write a story. And I find this

00:57:48.420 absolute worse than nonsense. I, I think it's now. Because why it doesn't allow for the creativity or

00:57:56.320 what is it? What is it that you have a hard time with about that? A great story is not, you don't get

00:58:02.440 to a, a, a good story by following the rules. Um, so by giving rules, I mean, the first thing I would

00:58:10.420 write on the blackboard when I was teaching screenwriting and, and I love to teach screenwriting, but

00:58:16.180 I would write, here are the rules. There are no rules. Okay. Interesting. But it's interesting to know

00:58:23.640 the rules. It is, it is important to know the rules, but I think you have to start with the notion of

00:58:29.440 we're, we're, we're talking about finding, like we talked about earlier, what moves you, what,

00:58:39.140 what is there in you that gives you a, um, that makes you more fully alive. Um, when people ask me

00:58:48.320 what I'm looking for in a story, I remember standing in a church with my family and several hundred other

00:58:56.840 Baptists and Baptists sing. They, they are the high octane religion and sing at the top of their lungs. 0.76

00:59:06.480 The minister of music would not face the choir in the Baptist churches I grew up with. He would face

00:59:13.840 the congregation. The choir knew the song. He wanted the congregation to be singing it. And, and it would

00:59:21.560 give me, and, and, and, and we sang hymns written by Beethoven and Bach and Handel and lyrics written by,

00:59:30.520 you know, John Wesley and Charles Wesley and, you know, the great lyricists and, and, um, and it would give

00:59:39.600 me a surge of life. And I wanted people when they watched my work to feel that surge of life. I wanted in the

00:59:51.480 way for me to feel it was to feel it myself. So that to me was the first thing I, I want to know

00:59:58.840 about writing. And the first thing I want to share with people about writing when they'll say, well,

01:00:02.600 I want to go to film school and I'll say, oh, study, study history, study literature, study economics,

01:00:11.760 study science, you know, having something to write about is the most important. If you have it to write

01:00:18.300 about, you can figure out how to tell the story, but it's the why that, that dominates the how of the

01:00:26.700 story. So for a story like Braveheart, I wouldn't go and do research first. First of all, there was no

01:00:33.840 research to be done. Right. Right. There was no, no history about it to speak of it. Encyclopedia

01:00:41.680 Britannica is a tiny entry about William Wallace and says that he, his story continues to inspire his

01:00:49.700 people to this day. Uh, but it's shrouded in legend. So what I always do is say, I would not be attacking

01:01:01.040 this story. I wouldn't be aware of it to write it if it hadn't spoken to me on some level. And what was

01:01:09.200 it about that story that spoke to me when I heard about William Wallace, it was, um, I'd walked into

01:01:17.240 Edinburgh castle and I had just come upon a statue of William Wallace. And I was with my pregnant wife

01:01:27.580 who had Mormon ancestors and knew her family's complete history. And I didn't know mine. And here

01:01:34.440 was a guy named Wallace. So I said to a member of the black watch, who is this Wallace? And he went,

01:01:41.580 a greatest hero. Hey honey, you know, I'm elbowing my pregnant wife. Greatest hero.

01:01:48.220 You hear this? You hear that?

01:01:49.460 You hear this, honey? Wallace, greatest hero of Scotland.

01:01:53.860 That's right.

01:01:54.480 Not exactly, uh, you know, country of wimps. And, uh, uh, so there was a statue of Robert

01:02:03.340 the Bruce, uh, flanking the other door and I said, and their dates were overlapping. So

01:02:10.080 I said, was Wallace an ally of Robert the Bruce and in fighting the English? And he said, no

01:02:19.180 one knows for sure, which of course are the magic words that any writer wants to hear.

01:02:25.260 Of course.

01:02:26.020 But our legends say that Robert the Bruce may have been among the ones who betrayed William

01:02:33.560 Wallace. So as to clear the way for himself to become the King. And then it was like a lightning

01:02:41.000 bolt that struck me, Ryan. It was, it was like hearing that St. Paul.

01:02:48.400 And Judas were the same person. What if something so noble in the life and death of William Wallace

01:02:58.980 had been what transformed Robert the Bruce from being someone who would betray his country's greatest

01:03:05.540 hero into becoming his country's greatest King. And that seemed like a story. So I sat down and wrote

01:03:15.280 that not knowing whether, uh, they used crossbows or longbows, not knowing whether they had invented

01:03:23.480 glass for the windows yet or any of those things. And I, I didn't worry about those details. I wanted to

01:03:32.220 know what, what would I have wanted to hear if I was a Scottish soldier on that battlefield and we're 0.95

01:03:40.620 facing three to one odds and our leadership is incompetent and, and corrupt. And suddenly William 0.88

01:03:49.920 Wallace rides out on that battlefield. What could he have said that would have made me want to stay?

01:03:57.120 And that that's how I, I love it. I mean, I think about what you're saying and, and whether we're

01:04:02.900 talking about a story like William Wallace and Braveheart, or we're talking about, maybe we're just

01:04:07.440 swapping hunting and fishing stories. We always, we always tweak the details maybe just a little bit

01:04:14.360 in order to deliver a message. I mean, that's the point, deliver a message. I'm a better fisherman

01:04:18.740 than you. I'm a better hunter than you, you know? And, um, but, but I also think I look at the

01:04:25.900 characters that I'm inspired by, whether they're fictitious or, or, or real characters throughout

01:04:30.560 history. And it's the reason I'm inspired by them is not because every little detail is spelled out,

01:04:37.100 but because I can see a little bit of myself in those individuals and the things they do well,

01:04:41.740 and also the things that they struggle with. Right. And that's why even Robert the Bruce in the movie

01:04:46.580 is somebody who, you know, you can relate with. He has ambitions. He has desires, worldly ambitions

01:04:52.820 and desires. And yet he has also a desire to lead people, uh, a desire to do right, to be inspirational,

01:05:00.360 to live a virtuous life in spite of his worldly ambitions. It's something that I think all of us

01:05:05.820 see in ourselves. Yes. And in, in, in, in so many ways, I think I related to, I saw myself in Robert

01:05:14.340 the Bruce more than in, in any of the other characters. And, and when I'm writing, I see myself

01:05:20.800 in all the characters. Sure. Right. But, um, but I really, you know, I would, I would love to be

01:05:28.160 William Wallace and know who to love and who to fight and who's had to cut off and who to, who to go

01:05:37.440 save if I could. Um, but there's a lot of Robert the Bruce in me where I'm looking for, uh, I'm calculating

01:05:46.680 and, um, and that's, you know, that's another reason why the Jesus story is so

01:05:56.880 resonant is a pale word. Um, if, um, if you look at Golgotha on the day Jesus was crucified

01:06:11.000 and you took a snapshot of it and you said, who's the winner in this picture, you wouldn't be likely

01:06:19.820 to say the guy hanging on the cross in the middle there. Of course. But, but the, that was the path

01:06:31.160 the victory and the, you know, and it is finished, um, are three of the, it is finished. And I love

01:06:41.560 you. Maybe those are the same words. Um, but yeah, so I got to think on that one, but that's really

01:06:49.640 interesting. You'd say that cause that does, that is an interesting thought. It is finished. And I love

01:06:53.880 you. The ultimate sacrifice has been paid, which is, uh, uh, an expression of love for sure.

01:06:59.940 Right. Right. And, and, and it's like, how much do you want it? I think it was not to

01:07:06.640 lurch between quoting Jesus and quoting Vince Lombardi, but, uh, Vince Lombardi is supposed to

01:07:13.460 have said, the more you sacrifice, the harder it is to surrender. And, um, and I, I do believe in,

01:07:22.760 I do believe in sacrifice and it's, it's of course hard to make it. Um, every morning when I get up,

01:07:31.700 there's a part of me going, you know, gosh, you lazy bastard, get up and get at it. I think we all 0.99

01:07:38.900 have that, right. Right. And, uh, but, um, I, I do, I do think that the, um, uh, when you,

01:07:50.540 there, there, there's something to finding what you're willing to sacrifice for, um, you know,

01:07:59.640 what, what you, but, but part of the, part of the sacrifice is, is not knowing if, if you knew,

01:08:08.940 like, I remember hearing a sermon when I was a kid that Jesus could look up and see armies of angels

01:08:16.000 ready to come down and pull him off the cross if he asked for them. And there are even references in

01:08:22.900 the Bible that, that's just that. But, but my thought was when Jesus said, my God, why have you

01:08:30.660 forsaken me? He meant that of course he was, he was in fact quoting, uh, the old Testament, but he,

01:08:39.760 he, I think he felt forsaken and alone. And, um, and that makes it even more seeing it that way for

01:08:48.500 me, it makes it more resonant. And there are times we don't know, like when you started doing this,

01:08:54.680 you know, like from nothing, you had to think, well, I don't know where this is going to go. And

01:09:01.220 sure. There's a chance that I'm going to invest my time, my effort, my, my money, I'm going to buy

01:09:06.960 equipment. I'm going to take part of my, all of my resources. I'm going to, who knows where it's

01:09:15.140 going to lead. We don't know if you knew it wouldn't be a sacrifice. Right. That's a good

01:09:21.160 point. And, and the, the thing I've talked about in the past, and this pales in comparison to,

01:09:26.220 you know, the story of Christ and some of these other stories we're talking about, but I look at,

01:09:29.400 uh, Superman as a superhero. It's like, is he really super? Like there's no risk,

01:09:34.240 you know, but you take somebody like Batman, for example, who's a little, who can die.

01:09:39.200 Right. That's, that is more courageous to me than somebody who has no risk. They might engage in the

01:09:44.680 same activity, but the one who took, took the greater risk is the one who's more bold and more

01:09:49.320 courageous. Right. Yeah, exactly. If bullets bounce off you, then, then, you know, how are you being

01:09:56.860 courageous? I think, I, I know Henry Cavill who, who, you know, play, was fabulous Superman and

01:10:03.980 incredible guy. I mean, just awesome individual and actor. And I think the, I think they were wise to,

01:10:13.280 in, in telling that story to have to make the risks be emotional and, and what I would call

01:10:19.600 spiritual is like, do you, are you, do you become a whole man? If your challenge is, um, to find not

01:10:30.040 your superhero in this, but in a certain way to find your vulnerability, to find your, your humanity.

01:10:37.160 Um, and you know, that that's cause I've had exactly that, that same observation that, um,

01:10:44.360 there was a great episode of Kung Fu. You may be too young to have watched it, but knowing Marshall

01:10:49.800 watching. Well, so, uh, the, the conceit of the story was that a, um, a guy who was, I think maybe

01:10:57.520 son of missionaries or something, but he was half, half Caucasian and half Chinese. And he lived in China

01:11:04.100 and he becomes a, um, Shaolin monk and, um, he's able to do amazing things. Um, but at one point, um,

01:11:14.360 in one of the episodes he shot, he gets, he, I think he was shot with an arrow from behind or

01:11:21.260 something, but he's lying, bleeding. And, um, a boy who has admired him and seen him do all these

01:11:29.540 incredible martial arts things is laughing and is not upset. The boy loves him, but, or the boy at

01:11:38.300 least admires him. Uh, but the boy is saying, Oh, don't worry. It's, you know, he's fine. It's a

01:11:44.200 trick. He, you know, he knows how to wave his arms and make this go away. And the, the Shaolin 0.82

01:11:52.980 monk grabs him by the collar and pulls him close and says, it's not a trick. It's a price that has

01:12:00.380 been paid. And, uh, that, um, I, I don't want free stuff. I want to, I want to pay the price. Um,

01:12:12.420 because I think in, it's in paying the price that the object becomes worth something to you. Um,

01:12:21.340 um, another thing my mother said to me, everything worth having is worth what it took you to get it.

01:12:28.140 Hmm. Man, that's so good. That is so good. Especially in this day and age where we just

01:12:34.880 want everything handed to us on a silver platter. The real value comes from working and earning it.

01:12:39.700 Yeah. Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about that sword? We started talking about it, I think,

01:12:44.820 before we hit record, but can you tell me a little bit about that sword behind you there?

01:12:48.680 Yeah. So that's a Scottish claymore and, um, the it's, it's emblematic of the, of the, the Scots

01:12:56.940 and, uh, the, the, the way, um, they fought in the time of William Wallace. Um, when,

01:13:04.120 when I first saw it, having seen other swords, um, I thought it was meant to be held in one hand and

01:13:12.400 the, the, the, the Scots, the, the fighters laughed at me and said, no, no, this is, um,

01:13:18.400 it's a stabbing weapon. So the Scots had adapted from the Romans, the, the Schiltron, it was called a 0.95

01:13:26.900 sort of the Romans fought in squares and the Scots were, were, were adapting that. And, um, so you

01:13:34.920 would have a wall of shields and then, and then you would plunge the sword. So it wasn't swung as

01:13:43.100 much as stabbed. Um, so it was like a half sword, half spear, and it was short enough to be used in

01:13:50.040 that way. And, um, so the, um, and then they, the, the clan Wallace and in Scotland, uh, well,

01:13:58.860 they, they love tartan. They have tartan in, in everything. And, and they'd given me a, a swatch

01:14:06.360 of tartan, which I wrapped around it and put it on my, uh, put it on my mantle. And is the pattern

01:14:13.380 indicative of their particular clan? Yes. Okay. That's what I thought. Um,

01:14:19.620 now that, that is the, called the Wallace tartan and the different families in Scotland. There are,

01:14:27.260 there are books which were pretty much codified by, I, as I understood the story, um, there were

01:14:35.560 traditional patterns woven within the different, um, uh, regions. And they didn't, in the days of

01:14:44.660 William Wallace, they didn't have this deep scarlet dyes. Uh, that's why in the, in the

01:14:50.800 movie, the, the Wallace tartan, which was really developed by one of our costume designers kind

01:14:56.980 of extrapolated, if you will, or, or he went backwards to try to figure out what would that

01:15:04.300 tartan have looked like in those days. Uh, but the story is they, there were a couple of kind

01:15:10.740 of alcoholic Scottish brothers who one long winter in the highlands, uh, ensconced themselves

01:15:17.960 in their castle and decided they would, um, codify, they would make a book of all of the

01:15:24.400 different tartans that related to the different clans. So that's, that's interesting. I mean,

01:15:31.820 there's so much, there's so much history. You know, I, uh, my wife and I were in, uh, England

01:15:36.560 about a year and a half or so ago. And we went into, if I remember correctly, uh, as we were

01:15:43.720 going to go through the parliament tour, we were able to go into the, and it had a plaque and it

01:15:49.460 said, this is where William Wallace was, you know, tried and convicted. So to be able to see that

01:15:53.640 even, even just little things like that are so fascinating to me. And that castle is, or, or,

01:15:59.060 or that, that hall, I guess it was, uh, is probably, well, it's probably more than a thousand,

01:16:04.080 thousand years old. Oh yeah. It was, it was haunting to me to stand in that place, go through

01:16:10.100 Westminster Abbey and all the different, and then there's a place called St. Bart's hospital. Um,

01:16:16.980 St. Bart's, I believe it's called. And it's, it's, uh, in Smithfield, which is a part of London was

01:16:23.300 maybe 20 miles or something or, uh, but, um, it's, it's away from, from where he was tried and,

01:16:32.460 and it's where he was dragged through the streets and then killed there. There's a plaque on the wall

01:16:38.000 there to, to go to that spot you're describing, um, was really powerful for me because that is where

01:16:48.780 he stood and to think, well, he looked up at those windows. Um, uh, is he was, he was standing here

01:16:58.480 saying, you can, you can take my life, but you won't take my freedom. Um, you, you, you, you can

01:17:07.440 commit, condemn me to death, but I never swore to be your servant. You know, I never swore to be your

01:17:14.260 vassal. Um, I mean that, that was powerful stuff for me. That is powerful. Whatever the actual words

01:17:20.980 were, that's what the message was. Right. Yeah. It goes back to what you were saying is this is,

01:17:27.660 this is the price that needs to be paid. And he was willing to pay that price. Yes. Yeah. Well,

01:17:33.180 Randall, I appreciate our time. Um, what an honor for me to be able to have this conversation. I'm

01:17:38.160 going to tell my boys about it because they were excited. We were going to have this conversation

01:17:40.900 and I know the men listening, I know the overwhelming majority, if not all of them

01:17:45.340 are to varying degrees, deeply impacted by your work and your creativity and everything that you've

01:17:53.820 done and put out there. So we really appreciate you and, and everything that you've done with your

01:17:58.180 life. No, Ryan, thank you so much. An honor for me to be on with you. I was, uh, thrilled to get a

01:18:04.220 chance to do this with you. So thank you. Hope we can do it again. Yeah, we definitely will. Thank

01:18:08.900 you, Randall. Gentlemen, there you go. My conversation with the one and only Randall Wallace. I hope that you

01:18:15.920 enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. It was so powerful, so insightful. And as I said,

01:18:21.520 as I started this, uh, podcast today, he is an incredibly talented man and somebody that I'm

01:18:27.020 certainly inspired by. So if you would guys, make sure you share this. All right. More men need to

01:18:31.120 share and hear, uh, this podcast and the messages that are being delivered from myself. And of course

01:18:38.020 our guests like Randall. Uh, so just take a screenshot, you know, if you're listening to this on

01:18:42.020 iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts, just take a screenshot, share it on Facebook, Instagram,

01:18:47.120 Twitter, wherever you're doing the social media thing, let other people know what you're

01:18:50.920 listening to, what you're getting value from, what the lessons you're learning are and how it's

01:18:54.820 improving and enhancing your life. Uh, also on that same vein, please leave a rating and review

01:18:59.380 because that's a great way to boost up the visibility of the show. Uh, and then, uh, of course,

01:19:04.060 more people will see it. And we know, we know that more men need to hear this message of reclaiming

01:19:09.360 and restoring masculinity. So shoot me a message on Instagram. That's where I'm most active. Let me know

01:19:13.500 what you thought about the conversation, what you took away, what you enjoyed other things that

01:19:17.560 maybe you'd want to hear from Randall Wallace. Cause I imagine he'll probably be coming back

01:19:21.940 on in the near future as well. Uh, and I can hit your questions too. So appreciate you guys being

01:19:27.100 on this path. I hope again, that you enjoyed this one as much as I did. Let us know what you thought

01:19:31.140 about the show, share it, check out the iron council, check out the beard oil. You know what

01:19:34.960 to do. You have your marching orders. All right, guys, we'll be back tomorrow, but until then go out

01:19:39.620 there, take action and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order

01:19:44.140 of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to

01:19:49.120 be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - February 16, 2021

RANDALL WALLACE ｜ Becoming Braveheart

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript