Order of Man - Rational Thinking in an Irrational World

00:00:00.000 Guys, you're really going to enjoy today's conversation with my friend and repeat guest

00:00:04.240 Sal DiStefano. A lot of you guys may know him from Mind Pump Media, where they focus

00:00:08.700 primarily on physical and mental health. But Sal is so well versed with trends in society

00:00:14.400 that I really wanted to have this conversation today. We get into logical fallacies, emotional

00:00:19.840 hype, quote unquote, cancel culture, victimhood as a perceived virtue, why Superman isn't brave

00:00:26.940 at all, which is an interesting discussion, and ultimately how to think rationally in

00:00:31.820 an irrational world.

00:00:32.800 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart

00:00:37.760 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You

00:00:43.360 are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This

00:00:49.640 is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said

00:00:54.700 and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:58.020 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and the

00:01:02.640 founder of this podcast and the Order of Man movement. I want to welcome you here and welcome

00:01:07.020 you back. It's pretty phenomenal when I look at the stats, and that's something I do quite

00:01:12.800 often as I look at the numbers, just to get an idea of the trend for our growth and progression.

00:01:18.800 And I got to say, it's pretty inspiring when I see that every single month, whether it's growth

00:01:24.400 in social media or growth with a podcast or just about any metric that I'm able to measure

00:01:29.660 that it continues to exponentially increase, which is a testament to you and the good work

00:01:35.060 you're doing and the importance of our mission, which is to reclaim and restore masculinity

00:01:39.820 by giving you men the tools and the resources. And in this podcast, the conversation you need

00:01:46.080 to step up more fully as a father, husband, business owner, community leader, coach, brother,

00:01:51.820 et cetera, et cetera. So I'm glad you're here. Glad you're tuning in. And I'm really excited

00:01:56.740 to share this conversation with you today. Now, guys, before I get into that, I do want

00:02:01.300 to make a mention of my friends and show sponsor. If you aren't following Order of Man on YouTube,

00:02:06.800 I would highly suggest that you do. I think we've got about, I want to say a hundred and

00:02:10.800 almost 130,000 subscribers over there. Really appreciate you guys banding with me on that

00:02:16.800 as we've tried to grow that channel. And again, that's another thing that continues to exponentially

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00:02:52.760 know, you're like, nah, I don't need to watch the video. I'm sold. I want to pick up a pair.

00:02:56.800 Then head to origin, main.com origin, main.com and make sure, especially in the boots or any large

00:03:02.980 purchase that you use the code order or D E R at checkout, because you'll get a discount

00:03:08.420 on anything you purchase over there again, origin, main.com use the code order. All right,

00:03:13.740 guys, with that said, I'm going to get into the conversation. Again, my guest is Sal DiStefano.

00:03:17.880 As I mentioned earlier, he is the co-founder and also the co-host of mind pump media.

00:03:24.040 The man is a natural intellect as you're going to hear in our conversation, but he's taken his

00:03:28.560 passion for information and learning. And he has applied it to the realm of physical fitness.

00:03:34.480 He's been through some ups and downs regarding his own path to health and fitness.

00:03:38.860 Uh, but he's used his extensive research and knowledge to create their maps program. And

00:03:43.900 you can learn more about that on their site. Uh, and then now along with his co-host, Adam,

00:03:48.320 Justin, and Doug, they host the mind pump media podcast, which is reaching the masses. Uh,

00:03:53.060 and it's been downloaded, downloaded tens of millions of times. So I hope you enjoy this

00:03:57.680 conversation guys as much as I did. Sal, what's going on, brother. Thanks for joining me again

00:04:02.540 on the podcast. What's up, man. Thanks for having me on again. I always have a lot of fun talking

00:04:06.480 new. Yeah. Well, I think we're very much in alignment with, with, uh, with some of our

00:04:10.640 thoughts about current events and society and masculinity and all the other things that I

00:04:14.280 think we'll delve into today. Yeah. I, you and I do tend to agree. And I think even if we didn't

00:04:19.800 agree, one thing that I appreciate a lot about you is that you, you appreciate objective, uh,

00:04:27.100 discussion and debate. Um, you're not afraid of discussing and debating things with people who

00:04:32.140 have, uh, you know, countering opinions. And, um, that is something that is unfortunately seems to

00:04:38.100 be less common, um, these days than maybe it used to be. Yeah, that's, that's true. I actually just

00:04:43.500 did a, uh, a podcast on, uh, logical fallacies and how people use these fallacies and debate and

00:04:50.760 they get emotional and they start attacking character and they start addressing issues that

00:04:54.680 aren't even really the subject of the conversation. And I mean, I can't say I'm immune to it. I fall

00:04:59.500 prey to those things as well, but it's, uh, it's sad that intelligent discussion seems to be something

00:05:04.240 that is, uh, diminished for sure. Oh yeah. And those are the favorite, uh, tactics. All those

00:05:09.560 logical fallacies are, are the favorite tactics among politicians. They're so good and so effective,

00:05:16.200 um, at using them. Um, and you know, unfortunately they, they work. Uh, so I think it's a good thing

00:05:22.220 that people like you are trying to inform your audience of, okay, here's how an actual discussion

00:05:29.260 can get played out. Here's how you can really find out the truth because then those tricks don't

00:05:34.160 work as well when you're listening and you go, wait a minute, that's a straw man argument or wait

00:05:38.460 a minute. You're just attacking that. You're not even countering the actual point, right? Make some

00:05:44.240 other points. Uh, you're, I'm not listening to what you're saying. You know, you don't know the truth.

00:05:48.640 You know, that's, that's a, that's something I think that we need to continue communicating.

00:05:52.700 What, uh, you said that they work logical fallacies work, which is why they're employed.

00:05:56.340 When you say they work, what do you think is the objective?

00:06:00.260 Oh, well the objective. Okay. And we'll look at politics. Um, as an example, when politicians

00:06:06.340 are on stage debating, what they're looking for are the one or two line zingers, um, that

00:06:14.620 you invoke a lot of emotion and it's effective. It's what you, the thing about politics is it's

00:06:20.500 very similar to marketing. It's actually the same thing. Sure. You're, you're, you're

00:06:23.740 a hundred percent. And how do marketers get you to buy their products? It's all based

00:06:30.680 on emotion. Most, most purchases are, are not based off of logic. They're based off of

00:06:35.440 feeling and emotion. And so what they're trying to do is invoke emotion, give you a one or

00:06:39.560 two liners. Um, and, uh, and that's what wins, um, elections, unfortunately. And a lot

00:06:46.120 of it has to do with the fact that we just, you know, most voters don't really sit down and

00:06:51.200 educate themselves well, uh, on subjects. They tend to hear one or two things. Oh, that

00:06:55.980 reinforces this feeling that I have. Um, and, or that makes me feel a certain way, or I feel

00:07:01.220 like a victim or wow, he really got her or she really got him. I'm going to vote for that

00:07:05.220 person. And, um, it's unfortunate, but it's just, it's just the truth. So I think the key,

00:07:10.940 and this is something that we initially, when we started a mind pump, our goal was to counter

00:07:17.660 that in the fitness space because the fitness space is full of that as well. It's completely

00:07:21.560 so full of that, like just terrible information that is being sold and it's being sold very

00:07:27.680 well. And then on the other side, you have people who have the right information who are

00:07:32.280 smart, who understand how the body works and nutrition works, how exercise works. And they're

00:07:37.060 losing because they're not selling their ideas very well. They got the right information.

00:07:41.540 They just suck at selling them. So what we need to do is get better at, you know, we have

00:07:46.900 to fight fire with fire. I'm not going to beat the emotional zingers. If I sit here

00:07:51.380 and I'm super logical and, you know, intelligent with my conversation, I need to have that, but

00:07:55.880 I also need to sell it just as well or better. Otherwise I'm gonna lose the battle. So it's

00:07:59.740 this information battle. And, um, it's just the reality. If you want to beat them, you got

00:08:04.160 to get better at their game. Otherwise, uh, when, well, and I don't think it's wrong to

00:08:09.040 necessarily use emotion. If we're talking about from a, from a marketing standpoint, it's

00:08:13.120 just doing it in an honest way. You know, it's, it's not, not feeding on that emotion

00:08:18.200 it with a, with a inferior motive or, or bad intentions. It's just using emotion in a positive

00:08:25.460 way to, uh, solidify maybe the logical reasoning that you, that you bring to the table.

00:08:31.500 Oh, totally. I mean, if you look at the, the fitness space, the ones that have won and continue

00:08:38.340 to win the information, um, you know, game, the information contest or competition are

00:08:44.820 the best marketers and communicators. It's not the ones with the best information. They're

00:08:49.280 just really, really good at communicating their points in effective ways. Um, and they market

00:08:56.180 it very, very well. And so they win and it's not the best, it's not the correct information

00:09:01.400 that wins necessarily. It's the information that's communicated the best way. So what,

00:09:05.460 and I, this is the case I've made for, for, for the last five years. I've, when I've talked

00:09:10.760 to scientists and fitness professionals in my space, you know, I do this, this, this training

00:09:16.900 that I'll do locally and now I'm doing it. I'm going to be going to the idea convention

00:09:20.940 this year, which is a, um, it's one of the largest conventions of, uh, certified fitness

00:09:25.800 professionals. So it's a huge, like fitness instructor, personal trainer, instructor thing's

00:09:30.200 been going on for a long time. And this is the training that I like to do with these types

00:09:34.620 of people is I'll go in there and I'll talk about all of the, I'll typically ask the audience,

00:09:38.700 what are the most important characteristics of a, of a successful trainer or fitness coach?

00:09:44.520 And they'll typically say things like, Oh, you know, passionate, motivated, you know, uh,

00:09:48.760 motivational has good information, knows how to train people properly, knows nutrition,

00:09:53.860 all that stuff. And I'll say, those are all important, but that's not the most important.

00:09:57.880 Like what about results? It's not just that it's not even, that's still an important one,

00:10:02.200 but the most important skill you can have as a fitness professional, uh, is your ability to

00:10:09.000 communicate how, cause I'm trying to sell you an idea. I'm trying to sell you why you need to change

00:10:13.400 your diet, why you need to exercise consistent. And I need to do it in a way that's truly effective.

00:10:18.760 Now, if you take that and we expand it out, uh, into other, you know, fields or just everything,

00:10:24.600 that's the truth. It's, it's not the right information that wins. It's the information

00:10:29.320 that was sold the best. And those of us with the right information and people in fitness,

00:10:34.920 for example, the scientists and the fitness experts, I tell them all the time, it's great

00:10:39.380 that you have all the studies. It's phenomenal that, you know, the right information, but it doesn't

00:10:44.260 mean shit unless you can sell it the right way. You're going to lose your clients, not going to

00:10:47.940 listen to you and you're not going to impact the industry in the right way. So you need to spend

00:10:52.480 as much time learning how to communicate effectively as you do with getting the right

00:10:58.580 information. Otherwise it's, you're just not going to be effective. Yeah. I think this is actually a

00:11:02.900 difficult thing to realize for some of these, uh, professions like, uh, attorneys, for example,

00:11:10.520 uh, doctors are another one who think that, you know, the education itself, the information itself

00:11:15.940 should be enough. And then they complain why their, uh, patients aren't following their treatment plan

00:11:20.880 or, you know, why they're, why their clients aren't listening to their advice. It's not the

00:11:25.840 information. It's your ability to communicate it. And, you know, if you want to be influential in

00:11:30.080 people's lives, then yes, having the right information is a prerequisite. Learning how to

00:11:35.460 communicate it effectively is what's going to get people to do what you want them to do.

00:11:38.400 Oh, it's the most important skill, uh, in ever. I mean, communication is, I mean,

00:11:42.920 it's how humans, you know, connect. And if you want to influence people, um, then you need to

00:11:48.560 learn how to communicate appropriately, but there's another, uh, component that goes to it. Um, if you,

00:11:54.500 cause the next, the next question people typically ask is, well, how do I get better at it? You know,

00:11:58.060 what books do I read? Sure. How do I, there's nothing that can replace, uh, just good old fashioned

00:12:03.680 practice. So if you want to learn, yeah, if you want to learn how to be a better squatter,

00:12:08.400 you can watch videos, you could learn biomechanics, you could take courses,

00:12:12.380 but in, and those can help, but none of those are going to come close to you going out and

00:12:17.080 just practicing squatting every day. So how do you become a better communicator? Well, uh, you go

00:12:22.020 and you find people who disagree with you, who are intelligent and you debate with them. But in order

00:12:29.180 to be effective at this, you have to also be open to getting your mind changed and you have to be

00:12:33.540 open to being wrong. That's what a real honest, uh, communication and debate is all about. It's

00:12:38.220 not about I'm here and I'm not listening to you. I'm just trying to crush you and prove you wrong.

00:12:42.880 Right. You're not going to get good at your skill. What you want to do is sit down and be like,

00:12:47.880 I'm, if this person presents to me compelling enough information, I'm open enough to changing

00:12:53.800 my mind. Now I know what my opinion is. And my goal is going to be to change this person's mind,

00:12:59.240 this other person's mind, but, but I'm open to being influenced. And then you go out and you seek

00:13:05.380 smart people who are open to intelligent debate, who aren't going to yell at you and call your names

00:13:11.780 and all that other stuff. And you, you have these discussions with them, you debate with them.

00:13:17.080 And boy, do you learn, you know, I, I, I, the last podcast I did with you, I talked a lot about,

00:13:22.440 um, markets, free markets. I'm not an economist. Um, it's just been a passion of mine for a long time.

00:13:27.260 But what I did for a long time was I would go online and I would debate very smart people

00:13:32.800 who had opposing viewpoints. And sometimes they changed my mind. Other times I changed,

00:13:38.940 but I got really good at being able to communicate what I was trying to say. Same thing with fitness,

00:13:43.520 which is, you know, my field of expertise. So, you know, and that's an important thing. I think

00:13:48.520 that's, oh my gosh, that's the, that's one of the crux, uh, cornerstones of a free society. It's like,

00:13:54.880 how do we know what the best ideas are? If we don't sit down, hash them out and see which one

00:13:59.140 wins. Let's compete. Let's get our ideas to compete. The winner is the best. And let's do

00:14:03.320 this. And let's be open to having our minds changed. You know, that's such an important

00:14:06.940 thing. I think we need to protect with everything we have. Well, you know, what's funny is that

00:14:11.640 somebody might look at that and think, well, I lost, you know, because I'm, my mind was changed,

00:14:16.000 man. You won that. Like if your mind has changed and you've been exposed to new information

00:14:20.780 that causes you to think differently and expand your current perspective, like how would anybody

00:14:25.000 consider that a loss? Like we're so, we're so worried about our pride and ego that we close

00:14:29.640 ourselves off to things that might actually serve us pretty well. Oh, dude, I tell you what, man. Um,

00:14:35.400 to me losing is being, is having the wrong information or being wrong and never, and never

00:14:43.920 fixing it. Not knowing. Right. And acting on that wrong information. Yeah. Like if somebody changes

00:14:50.020 your mind and they do a good job with it, it's probably because, well, it is for sure, because

00:14:54.300 you've decided that this new information, uh, has given you the right information. And now you're,

00:15:01.980 you're more on the right side. You're, you've got an opinion now that is more accurate,

00:15:06.220 more truthful to you than the previous one. How is that a bad thing? I don't, I don't understand

00:15:10.820 that. I think that's an excellent thing. I've had my mind changed, uh, so many times and,

00:15:16.760 you know, each time I, I, when I'm done with it, it's like, wow, I can't believe I'm so happy. I had

00:15:23.640 somebody on the podcast recently, um, who was, we were discussing, uh, technology and going into

00:15:29.940 that podcast, my initial, my opinion was that, you know, technology is causing a lot of the new

00:15:38.800 cases of anxiety and depression that we're seeing among adults and kids. Well, you know, he gets on the

00:15:44.800 podcast and he's an expert on the subject and he goes, look, he says, if you look at the trends

00:15:49.160 of depression and anxiety, they really haven't changed much through spikes and drops and whatever

00:15:54.720 he goes. But what we are finding is that people who tend to be more depressed and anxious tend to go

00:15:59.020 and use more technology. So it tends to be a part of the symptom rather than the, the, the root cause

00:16:04.140 of it. Sure. And he made a very compelling case and I left it changing my mind. And I even told him

00:16:10.080 on the podcast, I'm like, you, you, you blew my mind and you changed my opinion, uh, in some pretty

00:16:14.220 fundamental ways. I loved it. You know, I left and I was like, wow, okay. I'm, I'm better off now than

00:16:19.280 I was before going into that podcast. Had I gone in there with my stubborn, you know, like, ah, you

00:16:24.380 can't change my mind. And if you do, that changes who I am and I got to win or whatever. I mean, what a

00:16:28.160 terrible, uh, you know, non-growth minded, uh, way to approach things. Well, I think it's non-growth,

00:16:34.260 but you know, I think it stems from a position of immaturity as well. You know, that's what little

00:16:37.800 kids do, right? They don't get like my three-year-old, he doesn't get his way. What does

00:16:41.180 he do? He throws himself on the ground, pounds on the ground, cries, screams, makes a scene,

00:16:45.840 embarrasses himself and everybody else. And, and most of us never grow out of that. Like we,

00:16:50.660 we do that as adults. It's so funny to me, you know, and, you know, and along those lines,

00:16:55.620 because again, when we have discussions, we have debates and we're open about them,

00:16:59.500 the best ideas come forward. And then what happens is these ideas, I'm talking now in a broad,

00:17:03.980 like you want to look on a, on a real long scale, hundreds of thousands of years,

00:17:08.720 then those ideas are tested. And the ones that tend to stick around are the ones that win in the

00:17:15.860 marketplace of ideas. Not unlike, uh, you know, the free market where if you come up with a better,

00:17:21.920 more efficient phone, you're probably going to win the market share, at least in the longterm. And,

00:17:28.280 and the, the features of that phone that make it win are the ones that other phones

00:17:31.860 then start to copy. And it's just, this is how, you know, this is how the marketplace works and

00:17:36.760 ideas and customs work this way as well. So when you look at cultures, for example, you know,

00:17:42.320 one thing that I like to look at is I like to say, okay, let's look at multiple cultures,

00:17:48.020 old cultures that've been around for a long time, cultures that may not have had influence over each

00:17:52.740 other. So sometimes you'll look at like, you know, uh, practices and maybe Eastern religion and

00:17:57.680 Eastern cultures and compare those to Western where they didn't have tons of crossover or

00:18:01.500 whatever, where are the commonalities. And oftentimes you'll find some serious truth

00:18:07.080 in those things, you know, like I'll give you an example. Um, and I'll, I'll use fitness and health,

00:18:11.980 uh, as, as my way to, to explain this, just because that's my, again, that's my area of expertise.

00:18:16.600 When you look at fasting, for example, right. Uh, fasting has been practiced in multiple major

00:18:23.540 religions. It's been practiced all around the world and multiple cultures, cultures that really

00:18:26.960 didn't have any contact with each other. It was, you know, prized, uh, among the Greeks and the

00:18:32.540 Romans and the, you know, Eastern medicine. It's in a Christian religion, Judaism. It's an Islam,

00:18:38.640 still in Islam. Um, and when you, when you look at that across, you think, okay, there's gotta be

00:18:43.420 some value. There has to be some serious value to this. Now, you know, 15, 20 years ago in the

00:18:48.040 fitness and health space, fasting was totally, uh, it was a bad thing. There was nothing healthy or good

00:18:55.440 about it. You talk to any fitness professional 20 years ago, any nutritionist or doctor, they'd say

00:19:00.340 terrible. Don't starve yourself. Make sure you eat. That's really bad for you. Uh, but if you look

00:19:05.200 at, again, the marketplace of ideas and you can look at all these cultures and religions or practices,

00:19:08.860 like, okay, they've been doing this for thousands of years. There's gotta be some value. There's some

00:19:12.860 truth to this. Why it's because it's been practiced for so long. Now, of course we have science and studies

00:19:17.380 that show, Oh wait, there's real value. There's a biological value for a lot of people to fasting. Um,

00:19:23.640 and there seems to be, um, a lot of emotional and, you know, maybe you can say spiritual or mental

00:19:28.940 value from detachment, right? Detachment from food or detachment from other things, because you could

00:19:34.100 do other types of fast as well. So I like to look at ideas like that as well. And I think what happens,

00:19:39.140 especially in modern societies, we tend to take old conservative, if you will, I'll put in quote,

00:19:44.600 uh, ideas. And we say, that's a stupid idea, throw it away. And you go, hold on a second.

00:19:48.920 Uh, there's nothing wrong with questioning it and talking about it, but why does that idea

00:19:54.300 in custom and practice exist? And why has it existed for thousands of years and all these

00:19:59.240 different cultures and religions? There's some value to that. I think it's stupid. If we say

00:20:03.340 it's dumb, let's throw it away. It's nothing, no problem discussing it and debating it,

00:20:07.040 but let's not pretend that it's a dumb idea because it's existed for a long time. Humans have tested lots

00:20:13.040 of ideas. I'm sure we're not the first ones to come out with new ideas and say, let's try this one

00:20:16.780 out. Things have been tried out, right? The stuff that sticks tends to work. So there's value in

00:20:21.820 that. Let's not, and again, it's our, I think it's our own, you know, narcissistic tendency,

00:20:26.620 especially with modern times. We think we're so smart and we know everything and we know a lot

00:20:30.960 of things, but there's some wisdom that, um, I think we could learn from for sure.

00:20:35.800 Well, I think there's, there's some ideas that the outcome is as far as like what is best,

00:20:42.360 right? Cause you said best ideas. So for example, we know, uh, and you would, you're more of an

00:20:48.220 expert of course than I am on this subject, but you know how to get strong. For example,

00:20:51.940 there there's ideas and there's practices and there's movements and there's lifts

00:20:55.540 that are objectively accurate. I think where we run into issues is when we have, uh, social ideas

00:21:03.480 that best is subjective, right? This is the best idea. Well, what does that mean? What does best mean?

00:21:09.400 Or when we run into issues where, uh, two ideas conflict with the goals of different people or

00:21:17.760 different parties? And I think that's where we run into more of an issue. Yeah, no, uh, a hundred

00:21:23.660 percent. Look, first off, um, again, ideas pass through the marketplace of ideas and the ones that

00:21:30.900 stick around and that you see practiced all over the place, um, are typically the best and doesn't

00:21:37.940 mean they're perfect by the way. It just means that they've worked out the best. That's why they've

00:21:41.740 continued to be used. The second thing is this, is that there's two, uh, two ways to view the world.

00:21:49.080 Both of them have value. Okay. One is in a general collective sense. So we can say, for example,

00:21:55.660 and I'm going to touch some third rails cause I know you like that. Yeah. Generally speaking,

00:21:59.280 we can say men have certain characteristics that have been observed for thousands of years. Women have

00:22:04.500 certain characteristics that have been observed for thousands of years. There's truth to that.

00:22:08.900 Okay. Definitely. Okay. But there's a second part that I think is also important, which is at the

00:22:13.920 end of the day, what's important though, is the individual. We have to always look at the individual

00:22:17.660 because you could have these general understandings and concepts, but when you go down to the individual,

00:22:23.440 sometimes things tend to be a little bit different. For example, I'll, I'll use one that's not as

00:22:28.880 controversial. Uh, men generally tend to be, uh, stronger, uh, especially in upper body strength,

00:22:35.340 pound per pound for pound and total, uh, strength than women do. This is not typically, most people

00:22:41.960 won't debate this. I think this is pretty, pretty well understood. Seemingly, you know, it seems like

00:22:46.140 more and more people will debate that, but okay. Yes. Yeah, I know. I know. Insane, right. Uh, but if you go

00:22:51.740 down to the individual, are there women that are stronger than men? Yes, we are. So, and what happens is I

00:22:57.280 think people start to confuse the two. So they'll say that's not true. There's women that are stronger

00:23:01.860 than men. Yes, they are. Okay. We're talking about generally speaking. Well, that's a logical fallacy

00:23:06.040 to talk to that point earlier is like you're using a small number or an exception to disprove a

00:23:11.980 generally true rule. Correct. Correct. And I think, and again, when we have to value and appreciate the

00:23:18.720 individual, but you also have to look at generalities and, and cultures tend to be shaped

00:23:23.800 around generalities, but you know, a great example of a, of an idea that, that isn't, I mean, and if

00:23:30.720 you look at it in the scope of, you know, human history is a relatively new idea, but was a brilliant

00:23:36.480 one and it won, right. It won. And the marketplace of ideas was this concept of, of individual liberty,

00:23:44.420 if you will, which, uh, most people would attribute to the, to the Judeo-Christian, uh, religions.

00:23:51.780 You know, they were kind of the first ones to really say, you know, all people are created

00:23:56.320 in the image of God. Therefore, all people have these liberties that were granted by God, not by

00:24:01.980 anybody else. So we should protect them. A very radical idea, by the way. Um, one that was, you

00:24:07.760 know, cause before that, who the heck would have ever promoted that there's no King or queen or anybody

00:24:12.000 in power who would have come up with that idea because it undermines their authority. Totally. So it was a

00:24:17.300 new radical idea. They put it in the marketplace of ideas and guess what? It crushed. It worked

00:24:23.200 exceptionally well. It's the best, it's a phenomenal idea. It's, it's much better than

00:24:27.060 Kings and Queens and tyrants. People do much better with it. And so that's a great one, you know, put it

00:24:32.240 out and let's try it out and let's, let's see what happens. Um, that's, that's, that has to do more

00:24:37.140 with the individual. Um, but there are, again, there's collective, you know, uh, truths that we can use

00:24:43.000 as generalities and there's nothing wrong with talking about those as well. And it's funny how,

00:24:47.460 uh, when it's convenient, people will choose one over the other, um, in order to try to make their

00:24:53.580 argument, which I find a little bit interesting. Like you said, they don't stick to the topic at

00:24:58.520 hand. They like to move away because, Oh, it's convenient for my, you know, for my argument.

00:25:02.120 Like, like I said, like the strength one where, Oh no men and women are, you know, there's no difference

00:25:06.200 in strength. Here's a female power lifter who could lift more than you can. Okay. I get that.

00:25:10.700 But, but, you know, generally speaking, that's not true. Right. Or, or another example, even using

00:25:15.680 that scenario is, uh, if you're in some kind of physical altercation, so this guy who, or this

00:25:21.020 individual who says, well, some women are stronger than men. And then you take this guy who maybe is

00:25:25.460 in a physical altercation or an emergency situation or needs a car lifted off of him. Who is he going to

00:25:30.360 choose a man or a woman? Yeah, of course. He's going to choose a man. Of course, of course. And it's okay.

00:25:36.340 Hey, you know, it's, it's so funny to me. And I think the pendulum is swinging the opposite

00:25:40.280 direction. I think, you know, for a little while there, there it was, the argument was

00:25:48.060 that there are no differences that we are all exactly the same, which is false on the individual

00:25:53.360 level and definitely false on the, on the general level. But that argument was made, no, we're all

00:25:58.580 the same or whatever. And I think that did a big disservice because it's okay to be different.

00:26:04.840 First off, let's talk on an individual basis. Let's forget general differences between men and

00:26:09.040 women. You know, if I have a friend who's taller or smarter or faster, or, you know, more empathetic,

00:26:18.060 a better communicator or a better listener or whatever. Okay. It's okay for me to acknowledge

00:26:24.420 these differences and to appreciate them. And the same thing for them with me. I think that's a

00:26:28.740 great, uh, I think that's a great way to have a relationship. I do that with all my friends.

00:26:33.380 Okay. Well, and it doesn't make you superior or that individual superior or you or him or her

00:26:38.460 inferior. It just means that you're different. Yes. And you should respect each other. If someone's

00:26:43.700 nice to me, then I'm going to respect them and be nice back to them. Uh, and so I think that

00:26:48.340 that's okay. It's okay to say, Hey, look, here's what we see. Generally speaking, men tend to gravitate

00:26:55.240 to these kinds of jobs. Men tend to value these types of things. Uh, in our studies, it shows that

00:27:01.940 men tend to be better at these types of things. And on the flip, women tend to choose these types

00:27:06.220 of things. Women tend to be better on these different things. Now, again, when you go down to

00:27:10.680 the individual, okay, fine. It doesn't mean anything. So if you're listening and you're, you know,

00:27:15.640 if somebody said to me, Hey, uh, women tend to be better communicators, which by the way,

00:27:20.520 studies show that women tend to be, uh, better listeners and better communicators. Generally

00:27:26.040 speaking, this is just something that's been observed in scientific studies now for a long

00:27:30.380 time. I'm a podcast host. Okay. I communicate for a living, right? This is your job. You're,

00:27:34.900 you're pretty developed at this. Yeah. So I'm going to, I'm not going to hear that and be like,

00:27:38.580 you know, get it all offended. I know I'm a good communicator. I might be the exception or one of

00:27:43.160 the exceptions to the rule. Okay. So what? It doesn't offend me because I know, I know what

00:27:47.960 I'm good at. It's not a big deal. Um, and it's also reality that for the most part, women generally

00:27:53.820 are a little bit better than men at communicating. That's, there's nothing wrong with that. I don't

00:27:58.000 think there's anything wrong with that. It's funny. It's like, uh, you know, uh, I'm about to get

00:28:01.740 married next, uh, next week. You are congrats, man. I didn't know that. And my fiance and I like to

00:28:08.220 have these kinds of discussion. I love her because she's so open to debate and discussion. She can be

00:28:12.900 very objective. And even if we disagree, we have great discussions. And one way that we really

00:28:18.660 learned to understand each other was to learn the general differences between men and women. So I'll

00:28:24.220 give you a great example. Okay. Generally speaking, women tend to be more conscientious, uh, than men do.

00:28:30.360 They tend to be better at multitasking, remembering things, and just generally being conscientious. Men tend

00:28:36.700 to be a little bit more single-minded, which has its advantages, uh, as well. We tend to be able to

00:28:41.980 focus on one thing and kind of hyper-focus. Now, how does that help my relationship? She handles 90%

00:28:47.500 of our scheduling and organization, uh, of our lives. Now, if her knowing this, she's a little,

00:28:53.240 she's cool with it. She's like, look, I know I'm a little more conscientious. You're a guy probably

00:28:57.740 doesn't come as naturally to you. I also know you as an individual, not a big deal. Rather than being

00:29:01.920 like, Oh, we need to be equal at this. We need to be the, just as good as each other and be pissed

00:29:06.160 off that she has to handle those types of things. And I'm not as good at them as it actually has

00:29:11.620 helped our relationship to kind of understand. Of course. I feel like that's, we're, we're,

00:29:17.100 we're losing that man. We're really losing that. And it's really, really sad.

00:29:20.700 It's a, it's funny. My wife and I like to joke. She, she teases me and gives me a hard time that

00:29:24.520 I'm so stubborn and jokingly. I always, I always respond. I don't see you complaining when you need

00:29:30.060 something difficult done. So yeah, I am stubborn, but that hard headedness is what allows me to

00:29:36.480 plow through a lot of barriers that other people can't, or don't necessarily want to, uh, plow

00:29:41.680 through. Oh man. I mean, if you take a really broad again, okay, this is not speaking to the

00:29:47.040 individual. I'm going to keep saying that caveat. Cause I know I'll get people pissed off and be

00:29:49.900 like, I'm not like that. Or I don't, I don't even, I'm, I'm done with the, with caveats and like

00:29:55.060 in little qualifiers and disclosures and disclaimers. To me, it's like, if somebody can't

00:29:59.920 understand that, uh, this is not a rational human being that I'm really interested in appeasing.

00:30:05.100 Yeah, I know it can be, it can be pretty damn frustrating.

00:30:08.420 It is completely.

00:30:09.920 If you take like this kind of broad general, you know, look at the, you know, the men and women,

00:30:16.140 and you start to look at the differences. One of the main differences between men and women is that

00:30:21.500 evolutionarily speaking, men are far more expendable, uh, than women are. So what I mean

00:30:28.480 by that is always protect the women, right? I mean, the men, the ones who go to battle,

00:30:32.060 the one, the ones who, who expose themselves to hardship and pain and the elements.

00:30:37.920 Yeah. And you think to yourself, why, no, why is that? Is it because we're stronger or because

00:30:41.660 we're whatever? No, no, no. I mean, you know, us being stronger is probably a result of that.

00:30:46.400 But why is that? Well, if you have a society of people and you kill half the women, that society

00:30:53.740 cannot, it will not continue to grow. It will, it will, it will, uh, it will cease to exist. You

00:30:58.120 need to have a certain amount of women, the ratio ratio to procreate because women can only get

00:31:04.060 pregnant once every nine months to continue the propagation of the species. Now with men,

00:31:10.340 theoretically you can kill 90% of the men, 90% of the men could be done and dead. 10% of the men

00:31:16.840 with all those women will be able to, uh, continue the species, continue that society.

00:31:22.360 That's a good point. I never considered that, but you even look at, uh, physiology, you know,

00:31:26.420 you look at a woman and the amount of eggs that she has available versus a man and his unlimited

00:31:30.580 potential for creating sperm. You know, it's like, well, it's fixed with women. It's fixed with men.

00:31:36.420 It's indefinite. Right. So evolutionarily speaking, uh, men would go out and they would

00:31:42.380 do this scary, dangerous, risky shit. They would go to war, um, because they could be killed. Um,

00:31:49.340 and by the way, you know, it's funny, we live in such a safe, amazing, we've done a damn good job

00:31:54.100 of creating an incredibly safe, civilized society, but still to this day, the riskiest, most dangerous

00:32:00.700 jobs are typically done by men or most men. And of course, all the risky, stupid shit, you know,

00:32:06.140 like men are far more likely to drive fast and drive drunk and do, you know, jump off a bridge,

00:32:11.180 do the fun stuff. Right. Yeah. Or, or you might even say stupid stuff, right? We, we take those

00:32:15.880 types of risks and it's just, it's a part of evolution, but you can take it, you know, even

00:32:21.260 a step further. So if you look at like, uh, if you look generally against speaking, when you look at

00:32:27.280 things like, uh, uh, uh, you know, insanity or brilliance, right? So brilliance as measured by,

00:32:33.660 uh, extreme achievements, crazy, insane, dedicated, you know, uh, single-minded achievements,

00:32:43.120 other end compulsive focus. Right. Yeah. Like you look at someone like, uh, uh, what's his name?

00:32:49.840 Elon Musk, right? Sure. Just insane, obsessive, compulsive, uh, brilliance. Now it could be good

00:32:56.720 or bad. I'm not saying he's a better person. You know, I actually wouldn't want to trade lives

00:33:00.360 with him. He's probably a little tormented by it and probably not the greatest father maybe or

00:33:04.840 whatever, but his obsessive focus is definitely yield us had yield has yielded benefits to society.

00:33:11.200 Right. But you look on the other end of the scale, you have mental illness, insanity, dysfunction,

00:33:17.080 violence, and that kind of stuff. So if that's the scale on one end, single-minded achievement

00:33:22.320 and brilliance on the other end, you look, you have insanity and just dysfunction. Men make up a larger

00:33:28.040 percentage of the ends. Women make up a larger percentage of the middle. Women tend to be less

00:33:33.240 insane, less of them in jail, but also women tend to not have that single-minded obsessive focus that

00:33:38.780 tends to produce really, really, you know, crazy discoveries and achievements. Again, there's always,

00:33:44.440 I'm not, this is a general thing that we're talking about. Now, why, now, why is that? Why is that?

00:33:49.000 Well, because nature can throw the dice with men. It throws dice. This is where the, the,

00:33:55.100 the risk, like, let's, let's see if this works. The experimentation.

00:33:59.360 Completely. A hundred percent. And there is a, there is a connection between

00:34:03.560 dysfunction and inside insanity and that, and super high intelligence or brilliance or single-minded

00:34:10.260 focus. We've known this for a long time. There's a little, you ever meet someone that's super,

00:34:14.160 super smart. They're also a little bit dysfunctional, a little bit weird.

00:34:17.960 Oh, I mean, you take, uh, well, Elon Musk, you take Mark Zuckerberg. I mean, these are,

00:34:22.160 these are strange human beings, you know, by the way we would measure it. Like if you interact with

00:34:26.700 these people, they're, they're strange, they're strange people. And we don't relate with them.

00:34:32.340 Right. And, and so nature rolls the dice more often with the male, uh, gender because we're

00:34:41.120 expendable, right? It can, it can screw up more times, uh, than it can with women because you

00:34:47.820 need, you need to have a certain amount of women with men. You could do with, you know,

00:34:52.160 with, with far less. Now that being said, here's the deal. I'm going to, I'm going to,

00:34:55.340 I'm going to play the other side. Now I'm going to balance this out. Right. Now you have a bunch

00:34:59.420 of guys who are hearing that message and they're walking around feeling superior because they're

00:35:05.020 like, yeah, I'm a man, men invent shit. Men do the single minded, whatever. No. What have you done?

00:35:12.440 Okay. So it's, it's okay to see these generalities, but don't identify with something

00:35:17.400 and either become a victim or feel like you're a bad-ass. If you yourself haven't done shit,

00:35:22.540 because I am just as responsible for the achievements of Albert Einstein, as is my

00:35:29.380 fiance. I'm not Albert Einstein, neither is she just because I'm the same gender. Right.

00:35:33.540 The ability, there's no correlation there. Right. It's just like people who want to place blame

00:35:39.400 on a group or feel like they're a victim because a group has been victimized in the past. You know,

00:35:46.420 like if you're, you know, it's like blaming all men because men tend to create, you know,

00:35:51.560 tend to cause more violence. Hold on a second. Yes. Generally men are more about more violent than

00:35:56.260 women, but down to the individual. I'm not a violent person. I haven't killed anybody. I

00:36:00.720 haven't done any shit. So don't blanket that statement. I also think we can't do that

00:36:05.280 to women as well. So that's what, that's what the balance is. And I think some people tend

00:36:10.480 to, and there's good and bad to either side. Right. It's like the, I'm going to identify with

00:36:13.620 all this, you know, like, again, like the people who identify with all the good stuff

00:36:17.420 that their, their gender or their race or whatever has done, you know, careful with that

00:36:22.600 because you're going to be blamed for a lot of shit. That's true, man. Let me hit the pause

00:36:27.360 button real quick on the conversation. I've got good news for you. Uh, we've had a few spots

00:36:31.720 open up for our main event, which is May 29th through the 31st, 2020. And also for our father

00:36:37.780 son event legacy experience, which is doing 11th through the 14th, 2020. So if you're interested

00:36:42.620 in joining with 100 highly motivated and ambitious men, uh, in a weekend of camaraderie and competition

00:36:50.400 and collaboration, then the main event is the one that you'll want to attend. We'll be spending

00:36:55.400 two and a half days working together to get you the network and the framework to make 2020

00:37:01.440 your most productive year ever. And if you've got a son between the ages of eight to 15, then

00:37:07.160 you'll want to join us for the legacy experience for three and a half days with, uh, 19 other

00:37:12.320 father son combos. We'll be engaging in physically and mentally and emotionally demanding scenarios,

00:37:17.840 all of it designed to give both you and your son, the tools and resources to help usher your son into

00:37:23.340 manhood. So if you are interested in either one of those or both, uh, you can learn more and watch a

00:37:28.500 very quick video from each event. The first one is at order of man.com slash main event. And the second

00:37:35.200 one is at order of man.com slash legacy. Again, order of man.com slash main event. That's may 29th

00:37:42.160 through the 31st and order of man.com slash legacy, which is June 11th through the 14th. I hope to see

00:37:48.340 you at either one of those or both. We're going to have a great time. We're going to learn a lot.

00:37:52.020 And we're going to be, uh, again, giving you the tools and resources you need. So do that very

00:37:56.020 quickly after the conversation for now, we'll get back to it with Sal, even at a more, you know,

00:38:01.400 just a more, uh, foundational level. Like think about sports, for example, you know, when, when

00:38:06.740 your team does very well, it's like, yeah, we did it. We did it as if you had something to do with

00:38:10.680 it. And then when your team does horrible, it's like, yeah, they've sucked. They've sucked for

00:38:15.140 years. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're going to take credit when the team performs

00:38:18.960 and not credit when the team doesn't do a take credit when the team doesn't do well. Like if you

00:38:22.880 want it, you got it. You got to take all of it. A hundred percent. And again, I don't like to play.

00:38:28.980 I it's okay. First off there, you know, we, history is important. It's important to look

00:38:34.240 at trends. It's important to look at generalities, but if we identify with them as individuals,

00:38:41.200 that's where we start to run into problems. And if you're going to identify, then be balanced

00:38:46.040 about it. So I'll give you another great example. We're going to touch more third rails here.

00:38:50.120 Um, you see a lot of blame, uh, nowadays is cool in our culture nowadays to blame, uh, white,

00:38:56.240 you know, Christian males or white, you know, maybe to go further white, cisgender,

00:39:01.500 Christian males, straight. Right. Sure. Exactly. Um, which I think is silly, such a collectivist,

00:39:08.000 terrible thing to do again. You know, I, what have I done as an individual who can't place blame on

00:39:12.380 everybody? What have I done? But if you're going to place that blame game, if you're going to play

00:39:15.980 that game, let's be balanced with it. You're going to blame white, Christian, cisgender, straight males

00:39:22.520 for everything. You're going to have to thank them for all the good shit to them. Yes. If they had

00:39:25.720 that much influence and you want to blame them for all the stuff, well then thank them for everything

00:39:30.200 else as well. But see, people don't want to do that. They want to use the argument when it's

00:39:34.040 convenient and they want to avoid the other balanced side of it. And so that's the game I like to play

00:39:38.400 with you. When people come at me, you know, white, cisgender, straight males did this. I say, Oh,

00:39:41.940 cool. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Sure. Uh, but they also created free markets. They also invented,

00:39:47.080 uh, your cell phone and most of the things that you're using now. Right. And then, Oh no, no,

00:39:51.720 that's not true. How's that? Cause you know, it's like, okay, let's, let's, let's understand

00:39:56.320 generalities, but let's focus on the individual. That's the only way we're going to progress,

00:40:01.740 uh, together. It's the only way we're going to progress together. Well, and I think it also

00:40:05.500 places the burden of responsibility of surrounding yourself with the right people on, on you. Like

00:40:10.700 it's, it's your job to find the people who are going to motivate you and inspire you and treat you

00:40:17.220 right and uplift you and edify you. Like that's your responsibility. It's not anybody else's

00:40:23.460 responsibility to, to be that. Like you have to find those individuals. It's your individual

00:40:28.680 responsibility. Yeah. You know, um, I, one of the things I love so much about, uh, fitness is that

00:40:36.980 it's a very good black and white kind of, uh, you know, microcosm of how a lot of things work.

00:40:45.140 What I mean by that is, okay, I get a client, they come in, doesn't matter what their political

00:40:50.520 beliefs are. Doesn't matter religion, whatever they're coming in. They want to get in better

00:40:53.940 shape. So we can have differing opinions on everything else, but they're here to hire me

00:40:57.520 because they want to get in better shape. Here's the lessons that they learn if they stick with it.

00:41:01.380 And if I do a good job, they learn that they come in, they work hard, they get results. They learn

00:41:07.280 that if they're disciplined with nutrition and behaviors, that they're going to get good results.

00:41:12.840 They learn that behavior changes, long-term behavior changes are what result in long-term

00:41:18.640 changes in their body and their health. And they also learned that 99% of that is up to them,

00:41:25.180 that the, the one person who has the vast, the one factor that is the biggest impact on all those

00:41:31.640 things in fitness is them. And now that lesson, we can expand out into everything. You as an individual,

00:41:39.560 there is no single thing that has as much of an impact on how your life turned out, the things

00:41:45.780 that happened to you, everything else. Now, I'm not saying other things don't have an impact. Of

00:41:49.280 course they do. I'm not stupid, but the thing that has the most impact by far also happens to be the

00:41:54.220 thing that you have the most control over. Isn't that great? Right. That's a wonderful thing.

00:41:57.600 Oh, it's a, it's an amazing, beautiful thing. And it's also a empowering, a very empowering

00:42:05.960 thing. It's also will force a lot of growth. You know, I, I, you know, was it six years ago,

00:42:12.200 I got divorced and it was, it was tough. Divorce is always very difficult. I was married for 15 years

00:42:17.220 and it was really easy for me to leave that situation and blame, you know, the entire divorce

00:42:24.960 on my ex-wife to blame all the troubles, all the problems, all the things that went wrong on my

00:42:31.340 ex-wife. But, you know, I always try to, to, to think, what could I do? What could I have done?

00:42:36.500 What are the things that I had control over? And that's a tough thing to do in a situation like

00:42:40.520 that. I'll tell you, cause it's hard to come to the conclusion that, wow, I played a big role

00:42:44.100 in that as well. But I did, I sat down, took me some time. It's not easy because again,

00:42:49.780 you have to accept that responsibility. It's not easy to tell yourself that, oh shit,

00:42:53.560 the reason why things suck is because a large part because of me. Right. Yeah. Nobody wants to admit

00:42:57.440 that. No, it's hard, man. But I did, I sat there. I thought of all the stuff that I did wrong,

00:43:02.080 all the things that I contributed, how I could have done things differently. But what came out the

00:43:05.860 other end of it was I'm different now. I grew and I'm more empowered. I'm a better person as a result

00:43:11.240 for it. So it's not easy, just like in fitness, it's not easy. You're going to come in. I'm going

00:43:16.220 to tell you, you got to have to exercise on a regular basis right now. You're not doing anything

00:43:20.220 that's, that takes some, some discipline and structure. It can be hard. I'm going to tell

00:43:24.820 you that you're going to have to completely change how you eat. Uh, because, uh, you know, that's,

00:43:30.460 that's the only way you're going to get better health. And that's a real hard thing to do. I mean,

00:43:33.340 food is a big part of our culture and who we are and our emotions and all that stuff. But if you can

00:43:38.520 say to yourself, okay, a big reason for a lot of these issues with my health really is me and my

00:43:44.380 decisions. It's not my genetics. It's not my, why I was brought up. Sure. Those played roles. But at

00:43:48.660 the end of the day, I'm the one that makes those decisions. Hard thing to admit when you're, you

00:43:52.360 know, 50 pounds overweight. Okay. This was my fault. Or I had a heart attack. Okay. This might,

00:43:56.200 a lot of this may be my fault. Hard thing to admit, but if you do and you work on those things,

00:44:00.360 you grow. And with fitness, I love it because it's easier to convince people to do that with fitness.

00:44:05.820 It's harder to do that with the broader, the broader stuff. But if you can do that with

00:44:10.060 fitness, what I found is people start to apply that to other things. That's why it's a great

00:44:14.560 entry point into self growth and taking personal responsibility. And it's funny when you, when you

00:44:22.060 look at surveys of highly successful people by any metric, uh, you'll find that a greater percentage

00:44:29.500 of them, um, uh, you know, pay attention to their diet and their exercise. I think it's a great,

00:44:34.960 I think it's a, it's just a part of it. And a lot of times it's a great place to start.

00:44:38.960 So I could take somebody, I used to do this with kids. I would train teenagers. I love training

00:44:43.340 younger kids and older people were my two favorite demographic. And I'd take kids and I'd train them

00:44:48.060 and just through exercise and learning those lessons, they start doing better in school.

00:44:52.180 So they start picking better friends. They'd start making better decisions. Their parents would come

00:44:56.080 in and tell me all these. And I was just trained. I was just teaching them fitness. I wasn't,

00:44:59.380 you know, preaching to them about anything else, but it had a profound effect.

00:45:02.720 Yeah. I mean, there's so many lessons there. I look at my son, for example, and, uh, in, uh,

00:45:07.800 December we were working on deadlifts, like to, to improve our deadlifts. And I think initially he

00:45:12.040 was deadlifting maybe like 135, 145 pounds or so. And, uh, the beginning of this month, he's like,

00:45:19.600 all right, dad, I want to, I want to do a deadlift, see what I can do. And he pulled 165.

00:45:24.060 Oh, wow.

00:45:24.600 Yeah, man. He was so excited. Like just, just to see how excited he was about it, to see how far

00:45:31.760 his form had come to see his demeanor change just in one simple pull. And then to see that translate

00:45:39.160 over into, like you said, schoolwork and the way that he carries himself and the way that he

00:45:43.240 communicates with other people. Like it's such an, it's such an easy point of entry. It really is.

00:45:49.120 It's just an easy point of entry. And then everything just translates perfectly into the

00:45:53.160 rest of life from there.

00:45:54.200 It does. And, uh, right now what we're, what we're seeing, what seems to be this decline

00:46:01.160 of the, the understanding or valuing personal responsibility, um, of valuing our own power

00:46:11.160 and control and responsibility over ourselves and discipline. Um, we're starting to see it move

00:46:17.540 away from that and more into blaming others, blaming groups. It's not my fault. Uh, it's

00:46:24.080 everybody else, everybody else's fault. It's this very disempowering message. It's all, it's

00:46:29.520 a very pervasive, easy message to sell. And I think that's why it's, uh, it's spreading,

00:46:34.540 you know, but if I'm, it's interesting because if it, let's take, and I believe that that's

00:46:39.260 true. I believe what you're saying is, is accurate, but it, that thought doesn't improve

00:46:44.980 anything. Right. And I don't, I don't know that anybody actually believes somebody who,

00:46:49.940 who, for example, loves to play the victim card actually believes that they're going to improve.

00:46:55.080 So like, what is the point of playing that game? Uh, well, um, number one, it's easy to sell,

00:47:02.120 but number two, it feels good to be a victim. It feels good to be the person who it's not my fault

00:47:13.340 to absolve responsibility and to blame others. Um, people almost think it's virtuous. Like I'm a

00:47:20.040 victim. So, so I'm more virtuous than this other person. No, I mean, you're virtuous if you overcome

00:47:24.700 being a victim, but being a victim in and of itself, there's no virtue in that. No, no, there isn't.

00:47:30.560 But again, it's look, if I'm debating you and arguing with you, uh, an easy way for me to, to feel

00:47:36.020 like I'm winning is to claim a victimhood. It's like, Oh, conversations over debates over. I've had

00:47:41.660 life harder than you because of the following circumstances or whatever. So therefore I win,

00:47:46.620 like I, I, I win this, this battle is what they feel like. Totally. And it's an easy message to

00:47:51.420 sell. I mean, if I'm a, if I'm a politician and I really want to win a bunch of votes,

00:47:57.400 I'm going to go on stage and I'm gonna tell everybody it's not your fault. It's these people's

00:48:02.220 fault. Let's all band together and let's take their stuff or let's, uh, you know, tyrannize over

00:48:09.940 them or let's beat them because they're the ones that are causing all these problems. It's a,

00:48:15.400 it's a message that's been used by leader. Look, it's how Hitler people don't realize. A lot of

00:48:19.920 people don't realize Hitler was elected to offer. Right. He didn't just take power. They, they

00:48:25.600 elect and how did he get elected? He, he played that game really, really well. You see this with

00:48:31.160 the collectivist, uh, you know, uh, politicians of the day. Like imagine if a politician went up there

00:48:36.540 and said, Hey, check it out, everybody. Most of your problems are your fault. You're gonna have

00:48:40.860 to take responsibility. And then you got another guy up and it's like, Hey, look, it's not your

00:48:44.400 fault. It's everybody else's fault. Uh, vote for me and I'll make sure that you get what you deserve.

00:48:49.200 Who's going to win? I think, uh, if I understand correctly, maybe no more, but it seems to me that

00:48:53.720 Hitler played off of the, uh, terms of agreement after world war one and said, we, we got robbed in

00:48:59.040 this, right? So we're going to, we're going to rise back to power and, and overcome how we were

00:49:04.040 taken advantage of after world war one, a hundred percent. He, he had, and this is a, uh, like a

00:49:09.520 one marketing one-on-one, uh, you create a common enemy, you paint the picture, and then you put

00:49:15.940 yourself on the side of good. That's how you win people's, uh, minds. By the way, uh, this is a,

00:49:22.100 an effective strategy. Doesn't mean it's a necessarily a bad strategy. It's just an effective

00:49:27.700 one. It can be used in good ways. I would say in effective ways. I use that strategy

00:49:33.480 all the time. I will say things like the fitness industry, the supplement industry,

00:49:39.400 big arma, you know, I'll do that because it's effective. It's an effect. It's easy. It's easy

00:49:44.620 way to paint a picture, but that doesn't mean that the bad guys don't know how to use that as well.

00:49:49.880 And unfortunately the bad guys know how to use it better. I think than, than the good guys do.

00:49:54.140 I think they focus more time maybe, maybe because they don't have the right information. They're not

00:49:57.840 focusing on, let me, you know, Bernie Sanders isn't sitting there, uh, learning economics. Uh,

00:50:03.180 he's learning how to, how to get everybody to try and vote for him. Right. Well, yeah. I mean,

00:50:06.340 if he was learning economics, he wouldn't spout the nonsense that he spouts a hundred percent.

00:50:10.400 He'd be, his, his ideas would not be the same, right? He's spending all his time on how I can

00:50:14.320 get everybody to, to, to listen to me and like my ideas. Well, I think the difference here,

00:50:18.540 you know, we may, we may use the same tactics. I do the same thing. Order of man, right? It's us

00:50:22.460 versus them. Masculinity is being diminished. This is the problem, right? So I, we're all doing the same

00:50:27.120 thing. I think the difference is between the, you know, what you would say the quote unquote

00:50:31.300 good guys versus bad guys is what is the motive? So I think the bad guy guy's motive is to, uh,

00:50:38.620 collect power, right? Consolidate power. The good guy's motive is to empower those he's working to

00:50:45.320 serve, right? So I'm not trying to consolidate power. I'm trying to empower individuals, men in

00:50:50.400 this case, to, to lead their families, to lead their communities, to do well by themselves and others.

00:50:54.820 You're trying to empower individuals to get physically and mentally and emotionally stronger.

00:51:00.880 So you're not trying to consolidate and control that power. You're trying to give it back to other

00:51:04.420 individuals. Oh, a hundred percent. This is the, by the way, this is the, the conundrum that we run

00:51:10.680 into with, uh, again, with politics. It's like the people that desire and want power really, really bad

00:51:18.440 are the very people we shouldn't probably elect. And unfortunately, yeah, running for office,

00:51:23.240 we probably shouldn't want to elect those individuals. Yeah. You know, a good example

00:51:28.160 is like George Washington, right? After he won the revolutionary war, he, a lot of his followers

00:51:35.400 wanted him to, to crown himself King. Yeah. There was actually a movement to make him King. He said,

00:51:40.160 no, no, I don't want to be King. I want to protect individual Liberty. I want to create a,

00:51:47.460 you know, I want to be a part of a government that, uh, is designed to protect the individual

00:51:51.580 and that we're, you know, we're the government small and relatively, uh, powerless. Um, which

00:51:57.420 by the way, brilliant. I mean, if, if we, we, we aren't thankful enough for that, you know,

00:52:01.860 that idea right there, I think that's such a, it could have gone so, so differently, but there's

00:52:07.840 somebody who, you know, he, you don't want to really want to be the guy in charge, but everybody

00:52:11.220 said, no, you're going to be in charge. He said, fine, but we're going to run it this way where

00:52:14.240 the individual has most of the power. That's kind of the conundrum. It's like the person who's like

00:52:18.700 fighting to be the Congressman or the politician. It's like, Oh, you want power that bad? Maybe I

00:52:23.900 shouldn't elect you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a difficult set of circumstances.

00:52:30.380 And I have people, you know, are you going to be political or are you going to run for office?

00:52:33.900 I'm like, Oh no, why, why in the world would I want to do that? I'm sure you get

00:52:38.660 same type of questions and feedback. Yeah. I, you know, it's like the kind of people that I would

00:52:45.200 want leading are the reluctant, uh, leaders, the ones who do so out of necessity, responsibility,

00:52:51.340 um, and the ones that value, um, you know, my individual rights, uh, and liberties. Those

00:52:59.840 are the people that I want in charge. I don't want the, the, you know, Donald Trump is, uh,

00:53:04.820 there's some, definitely some aspects of him. I'll use him as an example. Cause I talk crap about

00:53:09.000 Bernie Sanders. I don't want people to think I'm one-sided. I'll approach this very balanced.

00:53:13.800 You know, certain that's good. Cause I tend not to do that so much. So, but, but, but I'm glad

00:53:19.260 we'll, we'll see both sides. This is good. No, no, no. I want to be very consistent. Um, and you

00:53:24.680 know, Donald Trump definitely presents some characteristics that I don't like. No doubt.

00:53:29.360 He definitely has some narcissistic tyrannical, you know, he's done some things where he tells

00:53:35.080 American businesses what they should and shouldn't do. And very ego driven, egocentric a hundred percent.

00:53:40.400 Yes. Yes. These are, these are characteristics. I'm not, uh, super, super fond of, you know,

00:53:45.760 the, the way he, he uses those things as if he, you know, he like desires to be king and,

00:53:51.520 and, and, and wants more power. I don't like that at all about Donald Trump. It's actually

00:53:55.740 what prevented me from, uh, voting from him in the first place, certain things he's done

00:53:59.540 that I, I like, and there's a lot of things he's done that I also don't like. I'm very consistent

00:54:04.260 with that. Um, and I think we all should be, I think we should all be consistent and be able

00:54:07.700 to say, you know, regardless of who you are, what side you're on, this is wrong. This is right.

00:54:14.760 Um, or apply the, apply the scrutiny, uh, to both sides of the aisle. Right. So what I, what I'll see

00:54:20.980 a lot of people do is they'll apply this, this scrutiny to Donald Trump, for example, but won't

00:54:25.420 apply the same scrutiny to Bernie Sanders or Barack Obama or vice versa. Right. Like if you're

00:54:30.440 to apply that scrutiny or have this, this, this criteria as a litmus test, then let it

00:54:36.180 apply evenly and broadly against all candidates, whatever side of the aisle they happen to sit

00:54:40.960 on. Oh gosh, what a dream. I wish everybody did that. I mean, you know, uh, Obama deported

00:54:46.360 more, you know, Mexicans than, than Trump did. Um, you know, but Trump is the, he's the super

00:54:52.280 bad, you know, racist deporter of all these, you know, these immigrants or whatever. Obama

00:54:56.920 was did a shit ton of it. We, you know, uh, Obama, by the way, you know, I, for the record,

00:55:02.900 I actually voted for Obama the first time he ran back in 2008. And one of the main reasons

00:55:07.220 why I voted for him was he was, uh, such a, he opposed a lot of the anti-liberty bills

00:55:15.680 and actions that Bush, uh, president Bush was doing, for example, Bush, you know, going

00:55:20.620 to war with Iraq, probably shouldn't have done that. They had nothing to do with September

00:55:23.580 11th, passing the Patriot Act, which brings a lot on our liberties. Definitely. You know,

00:55:29.180 the, uh, the NDAA, the national defense authorization act, which allows the government to take people

00:55:35.560 and detain them indefinitely without any, any judge, uh, or trial with any rule of law. So

00:55:41.600 literally the government could say you're a bad person, throw you in jail forever. And that's

00:55:44.980 it. Very, very scary precedent. And Obama railed against all that stuff, railed against government

00:55:51.940 spending railed against all that. Of course, when he got into office, he did the exact same

00:55:55.180 stuff. And actually he was, he was like Bush on steroids. Yeah. I mean, that's the hard thing

00:55:58.400 is, is what they say versus what they do is different. I mean, and, and this goes to both

00:56:03.400 ways, you know, like you look at Donald Trump, for example, and what he says is moronic. Like

00:56:06.820 a lot of the things he says is very idiotic. And then what he actually implements tends to

00:56:10.660 tends to have worked out pretty well. So it's like, yeah, they, it's hard because their words

00:56:15.320 aren't matching their actions. Right. I will say this about Donald Trump. He, he, you know,

00:56:20.480 I'm a big fan of, of politics. I like to look at it, um, and observe it like almost

00:56:24.300 like a sports fan, right. And kind of break it down or whatever. And, um, there's been

00:56:28.800 some brilliant modern politicians. And what I mean by brilliant is just very, very effective

00:56:33.920 at, you know, getting things that they want to get done or at swaying, uh, you know, public

00:56:41.240 opinion, right. Uh, Reagan was a brilliant politician, absolutely brilliant. The great communicator

00:56:46.300 Obama. I don't think you could find a more likable, uh, forget his actions. I, I, most of the things

00:56:53.280 he did, I was totally against, but his, the way he came across very likable, you trust him.

00:56:58.580 So in that sense, he was very brilliant. Trump is extremely brilliant, extremely brilliant. And

00:57:05.580 he does it in a very, very different way. I mean, the guy wins these battles in ways that

00:57:12.220 like, it's so hard to fuck with the guy, um, you know, go on stage and go toe to toe with

00:57:16.980 him. And he's going to bully people in ways that make him win, um, arguments the way he

00:57:23.740 handles the way he's handled situations. Like, uh, you look at the tariff war with China, which

00:57:28.720 I'm super, super against. I think, you know, people don't realize tariffs are just taxes.

00:57:33.060 So we all spend more money, but, uh, I hate to say it, gosh, the way he's working it, he's

00:57:38.580 winning public opinion pretty damn effectively. And if he wins in the sense that maybe China

00:57:43.440 drops a lot of their tariffs, Holy cow, that is a, that was a brilliant gamble, uh, on his

00:57:50.700 side. That's going to pay off politically, but it's funny because people, so let's say

00:57:55.520 these things pay off, right? Whether we're talking about trade wars and pulling out of

00:58:00.000 the middle East, those sorts of things they pay off. It's just fascinating to me that somebody

00:58:04.900 who would have this benefit of winning would, would be upset about it. It's almost like

00:58:12.960 betting against your own team. Like, I just don't understand because you don't like an

00:58:16.760 individual, why you'd bet against your own team and why you'd work against your own team.

00:58:21.060 Oh, I, I, a hundred percent. I think if we want to, if we all want to move forward, uh,

00:58:27.660 and progress, we have to all be objective and say things like that worked, that was good.

00:58:35.640 You know, um, you know, this, okay. So again, to be balanced, I'm going to use this example

00:58:40.060 against myself. So I'm a pretty outspoken, uh, free market, um, you know, supporter. I think markets

00:58:48.560 solve most problems far better than a central planning. I think markets allow for millions and

00:58:56.960 millions of people to come together in their own self-interest to work together, to figure things

00:59:00.720 out. Markets have, have done some incredible things for mankind and society markets in terms

00:59:07.100 of both business and ideas, just allowing these things to, to compete and the best things come

00:59:11.920 forward. I I'm a huge supporter of free markets. Okay. That being said, do I think we should have a,

00:59:18.760 a, an anarcho capitalist society where there is, where it's only markets controlling things,

00:59:25.840 where we don't have any kind of central planning at all or government interference at all? No. And

00:59:32.860 I'll give you an example of one that I actually got my mind changed on years ago. I used to be

00:59:37.540 super like free market, like to the point where I was like, no government intervention whatsoever.

00:59:43.040 And I had this debate with a very intelligent environmentalist who was quite balanced and

00:59:48.780 him and I went back and forth and he says, well, I think the environment needs some kind of

00:59:52.600 protection from, you know, markets. And I said, no, it doesn't, you know, private property ownership

00:59:57.740 of land and water. We protect our own land better than anybody else. If you want to see clean land

01:00:02.700 or you want to see conservation, go find private land. People tend to conserve. And so we went back

01:00:06.780 and forth and he actually convinced me of certain things. Like for example, um, protecting the

01:00:12.020 environment long-term. So if we look at the scope of a hundred or 200 years, markets tend to not look

01:00:17.980 that far. So we look at like the, yeah. So we look at like the air or the ozone layer, things that we

01:00:25.020 can't really own things where markets don't tend to exist or can't exist. Um, I could see a big

01:00:31.380 advantage. And if you look at the history of environmental laws, a lot of them, uh, were

01:00:36.860 terrible. A lot of them stifled innovation. A lot of them were used, uh, as weapons by tyrannical

01:00:44.720 government, but some of them did a damn good job. Like, like the, you know, like unleaded gasoline,

01:00:51.440 like that was a law. Um, we would still, we might still have leaded gas and at least we would have

01:00:56.620 had leaded gasoline for a lot longer. Um, you know, it was people that discovered, Hey, wait a minute,

01:01:00.120 this is causing problems, uh, with pollution and problems with our, with, with our mental states.

01:01:06.420 Um, you look at the, you know, how clean some of our lakes are and rivers. And some of that was due to,

01:01:11.960 to government, uh, regulation. And I've gotten my mind changed on that. So I think at the end of the

01:01:17.120 day, you got to look and say, okay, what's worked. Um, and sometimes, you know, sometimes things that

01:01:22.560 you don't necessarily like agree with as a whole, certain aspects of it definitely have worked.

01:01:26.380 And that's one of them. Yeah. I think the underlying theme of our conversation today is just rational

01:01:31.080 thinking, right? It's not being so wrapped up in emotion, not being so wrapped up in picking a side

01:01:36.660 and believing that, well, I, you know, identifying is I'm Republican. I'm, I'm a, I'm a liberal. I'm a

01:01:43.340 Democrat. I'm a, this, I'm a, that. And just being a rational human being who's, you know, here's the

01:01:48.160 thing too, is everybody that I've ever talked with pretty much wants the same thing. Like we want to

01:01:55.880 pursue things that are meaningful. We want to have a little money in the bank account. We want to have

01:01:59.240 some great relationships, uh, friendships and romantic relationships. Uh, we, we want to have some

01:02:04.940 experiences in life and outside of that, like everything else is okay, but that's pretty

01:02:10.080 much what we want. And I, I had, I have yet to have found a human being who isn't interested in

01:02:14.200 that. Uh, no, that's, that's a hundred percent true. And in a, in a country, um, like this one

01:02:20.740 and definitely in the world now, the world is becoming, uh, much smaller because we're so

01:02:24.840 connected. Sure. We have a lot of different ideas and opinions and customs and religions can

01:02:31.540 definitely differ. So you got to think to yourself, how are we all going to get along? How are we all

01:02:37.500 going to, to move forward? We have to have, there has to be an agreement on a basic structure of how

01:02:45.200 we're going to agree to move forward. And in my opinion, uh, because we're not all going to agree

01:02:50.580 on the same religion. We're not all going to agree on the same customs. We're not all going to agree on

01:02:54.800 the same politics, uh, basic understanding, a rule, a set, a set of rules that we all agree that

01:03:00.860 we value. And in my opinion, the best example of that is that we all, although we all have

01:03:08.660 different opinions or whatever, we all value liberty and freedom. This is why America worked

01:03:13.500 in the first place. You had Catholics and Protestants and Jews, and you had, you know, men and women and

01:03:19.760 of different, uh, different, whatever, all coming to this country, all having different kind of ideas

01:03:25.000 and maybe opinions, but everybody, especially initially that came here all valued liberty and

01:03:31.080 freedom. And so basically it was like this, you can't force me to agree with you, to agree with you. You

01:03:37.320 can't force me to do business with you. You can't force me. You can't take my stuff, uh, through force. Uh,

01:03:43.680 but we, I have to respect your liberties as well. We have to respect each other's liberties and let's leave

01:03:49.380 it at that. And then if we agree, that's great. If we don't, whatever, but we need to agree upon

01:03:53.420 that. And if we do that, uh, and we don't tyrannize over each other, uh, we're going to be

01:03:58.240 just fine. The best ideas will come forward and we'll all be able to work together, but you have

01:04:02.360 to have that some kind of a base, uh, respect. And that's the only one I can think of. And I haven't,

01:04:08.540 no one's presented to me anything that's better that allows people of different ideas, different

01:04:14.560 cultures, different beliefs to live together, uh, and choose to work together voluntarily,

01:04:20.720 harmoniously. I can't think of anything. I don't know anything better than that.

01:04:24.780 Well, you know, Sal, I wish I wouldn't have done this, but I'm on a bit of a time constraint today

01:04:29.100 and I should have known cause we could have another two hours worth of conversation here. So

01:04:33.440 I think we're going to have to do a part two on this. Cause there's a lot more that I had plans

01:04:37.360 on talking about, but man, this time has just gone by so quick.

01:04:40.740 Oh, no problem. I said, man, I have a lot of fun, uh, talking with you, hanging out with you.

01:04:45.160 So for sure. And I'm not afraid to cover whatever. So next time you could talk about whatever the

01:04:49.360 hell you want. Yeah. Well, we're going to get into some more, uh, maybe, uh, conflicting ideas,

01:04:55.160 some things that are maybe not as popular or, or certainly, uh, polarizing ideas. Cause I think

01:04:59.880 it's important. We discuss those things as well. Oh, you're getting me excited. Yeah, man. Hey,

01:05:03.900 how do we, uh, or let me ask you this question. Oh, and I prepared you for this a little bit,

01:05:07.760 but what does it mean to be a man? Oh boy. You know, usually for the most part, I'll say being

01:05:14.640 a good father, but I think to speak a little bit more broadly, I think the value that, uh, is most

01:05:21.040 respected and appreciated in men is discipline. Um, um, the man who is strong and dangerous,

01:05:30.780 but is disciplined to not be dangerous and violent. The, the man who has the resources

01:05:38.420 and the, the, the, the charisma to be with a thousand women, but who is disciplined to be

01:05:45.640 with just one, you know, the man who has the opportunities to go live like a boy, uh, like

01:05:52.680 Peter Pan for the rest of his life and buy cool things and party and whatever, but who

01:05:57.180 is disciplined to raise a family, um, and do things that are, that are truly meaningful.

01:06:02.740 I think among, among all things, I think it's, it's about discipline. It's about doing what

01:06:08.860 is right, even though you could do a bunch of other stuff.

01:06:11.040 That's a very interesting perspective on discipline itself. It, um, it almost alludes to the fact

01:06:18.480 that you can't be disciplined if there isn't temptation, right? Like that temptation is what

01:06:23.060 makes discipline, even a thing, even something that, that somebody possesses.

01:06:28.980 That is what discipline. I told my kid this a long time ago. My, uh, my son was very afraid

01:06:35.160 to, there was a competition he was going to be in and he was very, very nervous about it.

01:06:40.180 Um, and then he did it and you know, everything turned out well or whatever.

01:06:43.800 And we were talking about it and he said, I, he goes, he goes, Papa, I wish I was as brave as you

01:06:50.400 are. And I said, what do you mean? You know, cause I want to, I want to kind of get his take.

01:06:53.140 And he says, well, you're not afraid. You don't have any fear. I said, that doesn't make you brave.

01:06:57.420 I said, Superman running into a fiery building isn't brave because the fire isn't going to hurt him.

01:07:05.360 It's the, it's the man who could get killed by the fire that can still decides to run into that

01:07:10.680 fire. That's brave. So you can't have discipline without temptation. You're not disciplined then

01:07:15.540 you're just doing whatever you want to do. Right, right, man. That's great. That's a great

01:07:19.700 perspective. Well, Sal, how, how do we connect with you, man? Where do we go? Where do we connect

01:07:23.840 and learn more about what you're up to? Well, the podcast is, uh, is mind pump. You can find that

01:07:28.680 on any platform. We focus mainly on fitness and health, but we talk a lot about spirituality,

01:07:33.400 current events, uh, you know, economics and that kind of stuff as well. You can also find me on

01:07:39.240 Instagram at mind pump Sal. And then if you're listening and you want more fitness information,

01:07:45.420 we have a bunch of free books and resources that we've created. You can go to mind pump free.com

01:07:51.340 and you can download a bunch of stuff on, um, that'll help you, you know, with your workouts

01:07:54.760 and nutrition. Right on, man. We'll let the guys know where to go. I appreciate you. I think we met

01:07:58.940 must've been two or three years ago. I think it was at a, uh, it was at a Spartan race. It was like

01:08:05.140 the Spartan championships, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And I really appreciate our friendship and getting

01:08:10.560 to know you guys and everything that you're doing and you guys are up to, um, just appreciate you

01:08:14.820 taking some time today. Thanks brother. Thank you, man. It's been very awesome. And to see you

01:08:20.000 succeed, I think you're doing an exceptional job and you continue to grow. Um, and I think that's

01:08:25.100 great, man. Congratulations. Right on. Thanks brother. Thank you. Gentlemen, there you go.

01:08:30.300 My conversation with the one and only Sal DiStefano. I hope you enjoyed that one. As I mentioned,

01:08:34.560 uh, previously, uh, that the, the guy's an intellect. I mean, obviously he's very well

01:08:39.200 researched, uh, very thorough in his analysis and his thought process regarding current events

01:08:44.620 and the state of masculinity and just society in general, which is why I think that we enjoy

01:08:49.400 our conversation so much. Now, if you're interested in connecting more with Sal, not only based on

01:08:54.180 what we talked about here, uh, but their physical fitness training and, uh, and health information,

01:09:00.040 I got to tell you, it's some of the best information out there and they do an absolutely

01:09:04.020 phenomenal job. So make sure you check it out. You can, uh, you can hit him up on, uh, on Instagram,

01:09:09.660 I think is where he's most active at mind pump Sal. So check that out, connect with him. Also let

01:09:15.700 him know what you thought about the show. Uh, and let me know to connect with me on Instagram

01:09:19.800 at Ryan Mickler, uh, outside of that, again, a reminder for the main event, which is may 29th

01:09:24.660 through the 31st order of man.com slash main event and the father son event legacy experience,

01:09:30.260 uh, which is going to be held June 11th through the 14th. You can check that out at order of man.com

01:09:36.460 slash legacy. I hope to see you on the socials. I hope to see you at the events gentlemen. I just

01:09:43.100 want to tell you, I'm glad and honored that you tuned in, that you're spreading the mission of

01:09:47.140 reclaiming and restoring masculinity. And I am honored to be in this battle with you.

01:09:51.220 All right, guys, we'll be back tomorrow for ask me anything until then go out there,

01:09:54.860 take action and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man

01:09:59.260 podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:10:04.020 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - February 25, 2020

Rational Thinking in an Irrational World ｜ SAL DI STEFANO

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