Redefining Yourself ｜ TUCKER MAX
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 2 minutes
Words per Minute
200.07356
Summary
In this episode of The Order of Men Podcast, host Ryan Mickler sits down with author, entrepreneur, husband, and father, Tucker Max, to discuss his journey from college frat boy to bestselling author and best-selling author. In this episode, Ryan and Tucker discuss the importance of being a man of action, overcoming judgment, and ultimately how to redefine yourself.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
Most of you familiar with Tucker Max, and regardless of what you think about him, there
00:00:03.520
is no fence sitting. You either love the guy or hate him. But that's part of the reason
00:00:07.680
I wanted to have a conversation with him to find out what makes him so polarizing and
00:00:11.720
how he feels about it. That said, the biggest reason I wanted to talk with him is to learn
00:00:15.840
about his ability to redefine himself from college frat boy to successful entrepreneur,
00:00:21.800
husband, and father. I think we can all relate to messing up some things along the way. And
00:00:27.480
many of us have or are working on our own redemption story. Today, Tucker and I talk about
00:00:32.660
speaking the truth, overcoming judgment, the reality of the zero F's mentality, and ultimately
00:00:38.700
how to redefine yourself. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears
00:00:44.520
and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every
00:00:50.240
time you are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life.
00:00:56.920
This is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and
00:01:02.680
done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler,
00:01:08.300
and I am the host and the founder of this podcast and the movement that is Order of Man. I want to
00:01:13.020
welcome you here. I want to welcome you back. Obviously, we are in unprecedented times right now,
00:01:18.900
uncharted territory. And it's been a little interesting around here in the Order of Man podcast
00:01:25.060
studio and offices. But we're getting a lot done. We're trying to put a lot of content out and make
00:01:30.420
it available to you as a leader, a father, a husband, a business owner, again, a leader in
00:01:35.240
your community, whatever facet of life you're showing up as. So make sure you subscribe and
00:01:39.420
make sure you share this with other men. There's other men who need to hear what we are sharing
00:01:42.680
now more than ever, because they've got time on their hands and there's a lot of doubt and variables
00:01:48.620
and uncertainty. And hopefully we're bringing to light and some ideas and insights on how to be a
00:01:55.180
more effective father and husband. And again, every other facet of life that you're showing up as
00:01:59.360
we've got some great interviews lined up coming up down the road. And also in the past, we've had
00:02:04.720
guys like Jocko Willink and Grant Cardone and John Eldridge and Andy Frisilla and Tim Kennedy. And
00:02:10.760
our lineup of men who have banded with us is absolutely incredible. And I'm working on some
00:02:15.240
even more incredible guests as we move down the line. So again, make sure you subscribe,
00:02:20.120
whether you do it here and listening to the podcast or on YouTube at youtube.com slash order
00:02:24.860
of men. So you can see the podcast as well, including this conversation with, with Tucker.
00:02:30.320
So yeah, I'm going to get into the conversation here in just a minute. I do want to make a very
00:02:35.460
quick mention of my friends and show sponsors origin, Maine. You, if you're following me on Instagram,
00:02:41.740
you've probably seen, I've highlighted them over the past several days because they
00:02:44.960
are halting a lot of their traditional apparel making their denim, their boots, their geese,
00:02:51.140
rash guards, all that kind of stuff. And they've made this, this mask that they're going to start
00:02:55.760
offering and making available to those on the front lines and those who want to protect themselves
00:03:01.780
to some degree. So it's pretty, it's pretty amazing. And a lot of you have asked why I talk
00:03:06.160
about origin so much. This is part of the reason they're making great products, but they're also
00:03:10.620
fixing things and solving problems. And if you're interested in seeing these masks, go check out
00:03:16.580
their Instagram page, go to their, their website, and you'll see what it is they're doing. I think
00:03:21.700
they're calling it the defender mask, but pretty cool to see these guys step up in a time of need
00:03:26.820
and a time of crisis and solve a problem where most people just see most people see the problems.
00:03:32.280
They don't see the solutions. These guys are actually providing and building and making the
00:03:35.740
solutions here. A hundred percent made in America. So go check it out. Origin, main.com origin, main.com.
00:03:41.880
All right, guys, let me get into the conversation today. Again, it's with Tucker max. A lot of,
00:03:46.360
you know him. And if you're like me, you ran across one of his New York times, bestselling books in an
00:03:50.840
airport or a bookstore somewhere. And it's likely that's the case because he's sold over four and a
00:03:56.980
half million copies of these books. He's been credited with starting the literary genre frat tire,
00:04:02.620
where he details and documents his college day exploits. And although that's what made him famous,
00:04:09.800
his ability to redefine himself from those days to who he is today is what really had me interested
00:04:14.580
in talking with him. Uh, he's now the founder of scribe media and is helping other people tell their
00:04:19.800
own stories in their own unique way, uh, and giving a voice to those who need it. And for those who need
00:04:26.820
to hear it. So I hope you enjoy the podcast. I would love to hear your feedback after you have a
00:04:31.400
chance to listen to the show. Tucker, what's up, man? Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
00:04:36.380
Thanks for having me, Ryan. Yeah, you bet. I, uh, I've been looking forward to the conversation
00:04:40.100
because, uh, you're a man who, who seems to be pretty polarizing and somebody that from afar,
00:04:47.720
from a distance, uh, somebody who's really seemed to have, uh, turned their life around and changed a
00:04:53.040
lot of ways. I'm looking forward to talking with you about that. Thanks, man. Me too. Would you,
00:04:57.520
uh, would you agree that that's a, that's a pretty good assessment? Obviously a very quick
00:05:01.440
and, uh, overview of, of your life, but is that a good assessment that you've changed and,
00:05:06.240
uh, really pivoted your life? How would you describe it? I mean, I've definitely changed.
00:05:11.680
There's no doubt, man. The only, the only people who don't change are dead people.
00:05:15.400
Yeah, that's true. Well, let me ask you this. Have you, it's a matter of if you change for the
00:05:19.420
worst or better, right? Well, dude, I mean, listen, if I had changed for the worst,
00:05:23.940
then I would rechange, you know, like I definitely think I've chosen my change. I've chosen my path.
00:05:30.480
Clearly I'm doing it at least for what I think is the better. Yeah. Yeah. What, uh, what caused a lot
00:05:35.960
of the, uh, evolution and growth in your life? Is it just a level of maturity? Is it revisiting
00:05:41.520
past, uh, past experiences? Like how do you begin to change in your own life? The reason I bring this
00:05:47.920
up is because I know there's a lot of guys who are listening who feel like maybe they can't get past,
00:05:53.360
uh, experiences or mistakes they've had and they're victims and yet they don't know quite how to do it.
00:05:59.520
Yeah. So, um, it's funny you say that. I got an email today, literally from a guy who's like
00:06:06.860
older and he's like, you know, I've got no skills. I feel like I'm useless. Like I can't do anything.
00:06:12.200
I'll work for free. No one will hire me. And I'm just like, yeah. Um, honestly, man,
00:06:19.100
the way I started changing is the real, the first thing that had to happen was I had to get sick of
00:06:26.020
my bullshit, right? Like you, I forget who said it, but you basically change doesn't start until
00:06:34.100
the pain of change becomes less than the pain of staying the same. Right. And so for me, for a long
00:06:41.960
time, the pain of staying the same was not that painful. And, um, and so it was like, all right,
00:06:48.120
well, I keep doing this. I mean, that's, I think Bill Gates definitely said, uh, he said this,
00:06:53.040
it's success only teaches you how to keep going and, and which is fine. Like if you're being
00:06:58.020
successful and you like your life and things are going great, then you can keep going. And there's
00:07:03.520
nothing wrong with that, I guess. Uh, but what I realized, um, multiple times in my life is that
00:07:09.460
the life I had and the life I wanted or the life I had was not, um, not the life I wanted. And so
00:07:16.040
then, and then of course, like you go through the normal cycle, at least I did, of fixing everything,
00:07:21.560
everything externally, money, power, women, uh, uh, muscles, whatever it is you're going to define
00:07:29.960
yourself by. Uh, and then you realize, or at least I realized the external didn't matter that, um,
00:07:37.140
that, uh, it didn't matter how rich or powerful, uh, or in shape I was or how many women wanted me,
00:07:43.440
it didn't change the underlying emotions. And so I decided, all right, I've got to go address those.
00:07:50.920
Like I've got to go fix what's inside or deal with what's inside. Um, because that's where it all
00:07:57.540
begins. And if I don't do that, then the rest of the stuff is just bullshit. It's just a distraction.
00:08:02.680
Um, so that, that's how I started, man. That's how, at least for me. Yeah. It's funny because a
00:08:08.440
lot of guys will say, well, you know, money doesn't solve the problems or whatever else,
00:08:11.960
these external factors. And these guys will say, well, that's easy for you to say you have it.
00:08:15.500
Right. But what's funny is like, I didn't, I, I think I had less problems when I had less money,
00:08:21.620
actually, seriously, they were just a couple of big problems, but I didn't have many problems.
00:08:26.580
I was just poor. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and, uh, I think there's been studies too,
00:08:32.360
that have shown, you know, if you were to ask three or four, a hundred people, how much money
00:08:37.760
you need to make, and we'll just isolate that, how much money you need to make to be happy.
00:08:41.520
It's always going to be 10 to 20% more than you're currently making, right? Like, like regardless of
00:08:46.540
what level of wealth you're at. And so it's, it's not the money. I mean, yeah, we've got to make a
00:08:50.400
living and we've got to find some, some ways to put food on the table and have some experiences,
00:08:54.600
but I agree. It goes so much deeper than just those external sources of, uh, of happiness,
00:08:59.600
if you will. Yeah. No, I mean, look, uh, I think the, the definitive study on this show that about
00:09:07.120
somewhere between 70 to $80,000, depending on where you live, like the, just call it the average place
00:09:13.220
in America, like Tulsa, Oklahoma. If you're somewhere North of 70 or 80,000, then adding money has almost
00:09:21.320
no impact on your happiness below that than adding some money. Cause uh, somewhere around 70, 80 for
00:09:26.960
the average American gives you stability. Sure. And then at that point, money doesn't matter.
00:09:31.720
It's internal life. Right. You said you had to get sick of your own bullshit. How would you describe
00:09:38.660
that for you? Like in what ways did that show and manifest itself? Oh man. Um, well, I'm not really
00:09:45.840
the best model for that, man. Like I, so the first time, the first major time it happened was, um,
00:09:55.280
it was right after law or it was in law school. What over the summer, I was working in a law firm
00:10:01.020
called Fenwick and West. And I realized like a week into being a summer associate, but it's basically
00:10:08.220
like a trial run for a lawyer. I realized I absolutely hated being a lawyer and that it was the worst
00:10:13.880
soul sucking job I could ever imagine. And that I would rather put a bullet in my brain than do that.
00:10:20.420
But I did not in any way, shape or form have the courage to recognize that to myself at all,
00:10:25.820
because all I could see was, well, you know, like I went to good schools, being a lawyer is respected.
00:10:32.120
I'm going to make a ton of money. You have a bunch of power. I'm supposed to want this. And I hated it.
00:10:36.480
And so the only way I could find to deal with that man was to like, get drunk and act like an
00:10:43.940
asshole. Because when you hate your life, that's a good way to deal with it. It's an effective way
00:10:49.360
when you're young, especially to deal with your emotions is drink a lot, act like an idiot, sleep
00:10:54.420
with a bunch of girls, pick fights, whatever, all like all that whole thing. And so I got fired two
00:10:59.220
and a half weeks into that job. Cause I, I, it's impossible to get fired as a summer associate.
00:11:04.420
And I did it. I found a way and two and a half weeks, no less at that whole stories. And I hope
00:11:09.500
they serve beer in hell. And it's a really funny story if you weren't me. Um, anyway, so like that.
00:11:14.860
And then, so I blew up my life, man. Like I just straight up blew up my life instead of
00:11:19.460
really sitting down, feeling what I was feeling and being realizing, okay, I made a wrong decision,
00:11:24.540
but I can like fix it in a smart way. I couldn't do it. Another big way I can think of where I had to
00:11:32.000
get sick of my shit was, um, it's hard to pinpoint an exact moment, but I think, uh, it started when
00:11:40.040
the movie based on my first book didn't do very well. It did like a couple of million at the
00:11:44.520
theaters, but it was nowhere near what I wanted to do. And it was like, it was, dude, it was soul
00:11:49.800
crushing for me, which of course is the most ridiculous white, rich white person problem
00:11:54.080
that exists. Right. There was a movie made about my life before I was 35 and it didn't do a hundred
00:12:00.000
million at the box office. And so I'm like, I'm just emotionally crushed. Right. It's hilarious
00:12:07.260
to think about, but dude, it's like God's honest truth. I really was, man. It was like really hard
00:12:12.420
for me to deal with. And that would kind of started a cascade of things where like all of this negative
00:12:20.680
emotion, sadness, anxiety, depression started coming up. And it wasn't just about the movie. It was like
00:12:26.920
the movie failing unlocked all that stuff that was already in me. Right. But I was using all the
00:12:33.340
success to hide it, to cover it over. And that was like the first failure, the first real failure I
00:12:38.560
had. And it was like, Oh shit. And so it took about another year of me kind of wallowing in my
00:12:45.540
bullshit until I was, I just got sick of it. And then I called, you know, a therapist and I went to,
00:12:51.260
it took me about 20 therapists to find a good one. And then I started kind of my therapeutic journey,
00:12:54.960
which I'm still on a lot of different modalities and I've tried, et cetera. But like, um, I,
00:13:01.840
in my experience, man, I've always known, man, you know, like, you know, if you're at all connected
00:13:07.920
to yourself, you know, when you're full of shit and you know, when you're lying to yourself, it's just
00:13:13.040
sitting down and admitting it, you know, I should say, as I get older, I've done that, you know?
00:13:18.920
Yeah. I mean, I think it comes with just a level of maturity, but I imagine the therapy and other
00:13:23.380
things that you've gone through help as well. Did you, so when you were doing the internship,
00:13:27.840
is that when the blog and the book writing and all that came along?
00:13:33.020
So how did you begin to pivot and, and switch when you, you realized, okay, I'm miserable,
00:13:38.760
but I don't have the balls to get out of this, this industry or this road I'm going down. Like,
00:13:45.140
Yeah. So, um, like, you know, some entrepreneurs have amazing stories of like, oh, I did this and
00:13:52.140
I figured this out. Mine is like the opposite, right? So I actually don't believe a lot of those
00:13:56.720
stories though. Cause like these guys paint these perfect stories of like this one thing happened
00:14:01.540
and then I formulated this perfect plan. I'm like, that is not my world. And it sounds like it's not
00:14:06.080
Not mine either. No. So I sabotaged my career unconsciously, sabotaged my career, got fired
00:14:13.080
two and a half years in or two and a half weeks into being a lawyer. So I went back, finished my
00:14:17.540
last year at Duke. So I didn't graduate. And then I went to work for my dad who owns some restaurants
00:14:22.420
in South Florida. My dad fired me from the family business six months in. So like, dude, I mean,
00:14:31.140
like I got fired from an unfireable job twice. Look who gets fired from the family business.
00:14:38.260
I did. Uh, and so good for your dad though. I mean, it was a great, it was the best thing that
00:14:43.860
happened. Both of those things are the best thing that God forbid, man, if I was a lawyer,
00:14:47.020
Oh God, I can't think of how horrible my life would be. Um, so after that, uh, my friends from law
00:14:53.980
school, like I was sending them emails telling them I live in South Florida, which is, you know,
00:14:57.920
the armpit of America. And like, I was talking about how much I hated my life and writing funny
00:15:02.220
emails. Cause I was still going out, getting drunk, hooking up with girls. I just hated it.
00:15:06.260
Like, but I didn't know what else to do. And so I was writing emails to my friends about it. And
00:15:10.140
they're like, dude, you're real bad at business and law, but this writing thing you're good at.
00:15:15.100
And I'm like, what kind of bitch becomes a writer? Like get out of here. Right. And they're like,
00:15:19.800
okay, well, what else are you going to do? Right. Yeah. Like sleeping with skanks,
00:15:23.820
South Florida skanks is not a job unless you're a drug dealer. And I'm like, I'm not going to do
00:15:27.580
that. So, uh, I like, I was like, all right. So I started, I sent my emails, like it took like
00:15:34.600
this five, six funniest ones, sent them to every, this is 2000, 2002 mind you. Okay. So like,
00:15:41.040
this is like before Facebook or my space or blogs existed or anything, I sent them to every single
00:15:47.560
publisher and every single agent in the country. And there were a lot that not, not like now,
00:15:53.300
like a huge book full of addresses, probably a thousand query letters. Every single one rejected
00:15:58.940
me. Like most of them just ignored it. Right. Right. You didn't hear anything back. Right. I
00:16:03.860
maybe got 30 form rejections. I actually got like three or four serious, like customized,
00:16:09.940
personalized rejections about how horrible I was and how everything was terrible. I should never even
00:16:14.320
write an email again. And, but at this point I ignored them because at this point I had been getting
00:16:19.760
my emails forwarded back to me from like other people in other social circles. Like my friends
00:16:24.840
for, I only would send my emails to like my eight friends in law school. It wasn't like an email.
00:16:28.900
I didn't have an email list. Those things didn't really exist then. Right. It wasn't there.
00:16:32.080
No click funnels to your buddies. Right. Like, like what people do in group chats now you had to do
00:16:36.740
over email. And so like, uh, I started getting those forwarded back to me from like guys I knew from
00:16:42.160
high school and they'd be like, Oh dude, if you read this story, it's so hilarious. And I'm like,
00:16:46.620
asshole scroll. Remember email forward. You're old enough to remember. I'm like, scroll down to
00:16:50.700
the header. Like, look at that. That's me. I wrote that. And they're like, Oh man, I didn't see that.
00:16:56.140
You're like, I knew it sounded like you. And, uh, and so like, then I knew publishers were wrong.
00:17:01.400
So like if, when people are 40, me, my own stuff without knowing it's me, they're wrong. And so, um,
00:17:07.100
I put myself up on the internet for free because I, I didn't know what else to do. And I had to use
00:17:13.120
like geo cities. Right. And, uh, uh, and it blew up. It did like amazing. And, um, then MTV came and
00:17:20.320
filmed me cause they were, this is back when it was weird to meet people off the internet where it was
00:17:23.560
like real creepy. Right. And like goals were like hanging out with me cause of my site. And, uh,
00:17:29.100
and so like they filmed me about that and then it kind of blew up and then publishers came back,
00:17:33.620
like, we want to do a book with you. And I'm like, yeah, all right. Thanks assholes. That was when I was
00:17:38.360
new to entertainment. I didn't know what a bullshit farce it all was. And so then I did,
00:17:42.600
did my first book helped us air beer and I'll come out in 06 and hit the bestseller list and then
00:17:46.840
kind of took off from there. Yeah. Do you think that these publishers didn't originally connect
00:17:52.400
with you because it was a risk to take on what you were doing or, or you didn't have any sort of
00:17:58.600
notoriety or weren't known? Like what was it that they were rejecting the ones that did, I guess the
00:18:04.240
one that didn't ignore you. Right. There's a couple of things. Um, so the, the obvious thing is
00:18:10.300
if you work in public, everyone who works in book publishing, uh, wanted to be a writer and failed.
00:18:17.040
And so like all they know how to do is replicate what other people are already doing. They can't
00:18:24.040
see anything new, right? Because by definition, if they could, they would go write it. They would
00:18:28.480
have done it. Exactly. Right. And so you have people picking winners who don't know what winners
00:18:34.640
are except in the past. You know what I mean? That's why every great writer has a million
00:18:38.600
rejection stories. Harry fucking Potter, for Christ's sake, JK Rowling was rejected from like 27
00:18:43.380
publishers. Right. Right. She had to go back to Scholastic like four times before they finally took
00:18:48.000
her. And so like, like that's the comical thing about this. And that was back before, you know,
00:18:53.180
like there were gatekeepers. Now there's none. It's different. Right. But the other thing I didn't
00:18:57.700
understand at the time, which was a big thing is publishing is dominated by women. I mean,
00:19:03.140
for better or worse, it's just like, it's like 80, I think it was 70 ish percent. Then now it's
00:19:07.300
probably 80 or 90% women. And like my stuff is even though half my fans are women, the type of women
00:19:13.380
who love my books don't tend to work in book publishing. Right. They tend like those tend to
00:19:17.840
be like, I can imagine that's true. The girls who like my books were the party girls who were out
00:19:22.580
drinking. They're not reading all day. And so like, like no one who likes my books worked in
00:19:28.420
those companies. So they couldn't conceive of anyone liking this because they only like what
00:19:32.800
they, it's why they're really good at doing books for people who go to snobby cocktail parties on the
00:19:37.920
Upper West Side because that's what they do. They're bad at publishing books for the rest of America.
00:19:43.020
Yeah. Which is interesting because obviously you're leaving out a huge portion of people who would be
00:19:47.480
very, very interested in what you have to say. Obviously that's true for you, right? Is this why,
00:19:52.760
is this a big reason why you started to describe media? I know that's been big. In fact, I told you
00:19:57.880
before we hit record that you and I talked years ago, maybe for 15 minutes or so about, uh, writing a
00:20:03.320
book, but is this the, the catalyst for the media company now? It's part of it. Um, uh, it was more,
00:20:11.160
honestly, it was more that like everyone wants to write a book and everyone kept as soon as I'm sure you
00:20:17.240
wrote a book. So I'm sure, you know, first question you get, what's about second question.
00:20:21.640
How do I write my book? You know, like tell me how to, how'd you do it? Right. Everyone wants to do
00:20:25.620
it and no one wants to actually put in the work. And so I was like, long, like long, long story short,
00:20:31.540
this entrepreneurial woman basically like asked me how to write a book without writing it. And I
00:20:35.740
totally called her out and made fun of her and I gave her all the snobby elitist writer things.
00:20:39.720
You know, everyone wants to be a star. No one wants to put in the work. And she's like,
00:20:43.100
if you're an entrepreneur, you would actually help me solve my problem and not lecture me about
00:20:47.100
hard work. And I was like, Oh, so then I like, I kind of like thought, okay, how do you get a book
00:20:52.300
out of someone's head without ghostwriting? Where you just write a book and then they pay you to put
00:20:56.820
their name on it. It's gotta be all their ideas, their words, their voice. I was like, Oh man,
00:21:00.940
scribes have been doing this for 2000 years. Like, you know, Plato wrote down everything Socrates said.
00:21:05.180
And so I kind of came up with a process. We tested it. It worked amazing for her book. And then she
00:21:10.840
started referring people and it kind of just took off, man. There's a huge demand for this.
00:21:15.340
And I'll tell you what I've seen even now we're five years in and we, we mainly worked on
00:21:20.000
entrepreneurial or sort of business books or personal development or people like own businesses
00:21:25.560
like, cause you know, they can pay the most money. So we started at the high end, but what we've
00:21:30.260
noticed, man, the big thing I'm working on now, I think the bigger market is for, I want to say
00:21:36.180
memoir, but that's not really right. Cause people think memoir and they think, Oh, I'm just going to
00:21:40.640
brag about myself or the, or you think it's arrogant or I haven't done anything. I think
00:21:45.840
both of those are bullshit. Cause no one wants to, you're right. No one wants to read about a
00:21:48.920
braggy, like Jack Welch, Jackass memoir. He just talks about himself all the time. Oh, I did this,
00:21:53.840
this deal. It's like, no one cares, dude, but everyone wants to tell their story and everyone
00:21:58.840
wants to speak their truth. And as much media as there is in the world right now, it's still very rare
00:22:04.380
to find anyone who actually speaks their truth, honestly. And so that's like, we've come up with
00:22:10.660
a whole workshop where we kind of help people tell their story and speak their truth in a really
00:22:15.340
direct, honest way that any normal person can do. Um, we just like, we haven't really even launched
00:22:20.920
it yet. It's still in beta. I think that's going to be huge, man. That's the thing that like,
00:22:24.920
we're opening up to that as a world. That's the thing I'm most excited about right now with the
00:22:30.000
company. Do you think, I agree with you when it comes to truth that everybody wants to talk about
00:22:35.960
their realistic version of, of reality, right? What they see and how they see the world and, and not,
00:22:43.280
uh, you know, not, not filtered through the, what, what it should be, right? What everybody tells you
00:22:49.440
what it should be. And if it's PC and all this kind of stuff, it seems to me that a lot of people
00:22:54.820
are afraid of that because of the risk of being, you know, canceled or called out or ridiculed,
00:23:00.000
or mocked, like how does somebody overcome that? Because obviously you're a polarizing figure and
00:23:04.940
that's something that you've managed to do very well in spite of criticism, uh, from a lot of
00:23:09.580
different sources. Yeah. So, um, I'll, I'll just tell you people who are, uh, it's not about opinion,
00:23:17.060
right? So like, you're right. If you're like, if you want to talk about Trump or you want to talk
00:23:21.140
about Bernie Sanders or whatever, then it's like, there's the other, the anti tribe of that tribe you
00:23:26.120
like that hates you or whatever. That's that silences some people, but that's a pin. No
00:23:31.820
one's truth is I'm for Bernie Sanders or I'm against Bernie Sanders. That's no one's personal
00:23:36.660
truth. That's just a tribe you're affiliated with. I'm talking about like, what are the things you
00:23:43.180
really honestly think and feel and believe about your life that you want to talk about? Trump is not
00:23:49.940
anyone's life, but Trump, right? Like, so that's not, no one's personal Trump is unless, uh, you know,
00:23:55.780
Trump did something specifically to you. Your truth does not involve him. It doesn't involve him.
00:24:00.900
Right. Exactly. And so like, um, uh, what we really more work on is like, what's your personal truth,
00:24:08.420
but people are extremely afraid of that. And it's less cancel culture. It's more judgment. And so like,
00:24:13.760
which is cancel culture is a form of judgment, no doubt, but it's like kind of broad judgment of
00:24:19.840
people. You don't know what most people are afraid of. What's my family going to think? What are my
00:24:23.640
friends going to think? Um, you know, what if I'm wrong? All that kind of shit, man, people are
00:24:30.060
absolutely just wrapped up afraid of that. And I get it, man, because everyone's living in such a deep
00:24:37.520
fear of, of judgment. I'll tell you, man, the way I dealt with it is, uh, the way I deal continue to
00:24:44.620
deal with it is I first, I do my work, right? When I was young, I was like, fuck those people.
00:24:50.000
I don't care what they think. They're irrelevant. That works well. If you're going to be a gadfly
00:24:54.800
in media, which I was right. If you're going to play that role, like the Joker role or whatever it
00:24:59.800
is, and it worked well, but emotionally for a person, it doesn't really work well. Um,
00:25:06.800
it kind of depends how you do it, but I'll tell you individually, like if you're not a public figure,
00:25:11.640
um, and the way that you deal with it, the way I deal with it is I understand that everything,
00:25:19.240
everyone else thinks about me is not actually about me. It's about them. They are projecting
00:25:25.660
all of their own stuff onto me. Now I'm saying again, assuming like, you know, if I robbed somebody,
00:25:32.600
then they're not projecting what they think on me, right? That really happened. Right. But,
00:25:37.580
but like, you know, if some, I say something to someone and they're like, you know, what you said
00:25:44.720
was mean. And I'm like, hold on a minute. Like, well, I, are you sure it was mean or are you taking
00:25:50.660
it that way? Right. And obviously we negotiate reality between two people, but in my experience,
00:25:56.380
the vast majority of people don't see you as you are. They see you as if they are.
00:26:03.060
Hmm. Yeah. That makes sense. I actually like this approach better than that whole zero F's
00:26:09.120
mentality. You know, you hear that a lot on social media and everywhere else. Like I don't care about
00:26:12.860
anything. It's like anything, like there's nothing and nobody's opinion that you care about. And
00:26:18.360
usually when you have to tell people something, it's usually because you're trying to convince
00:26:21.920
yourself of something that isn't necessarily true. Right. So we're trying to convince yourself,
00:26:27.160
right? That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's funny. Uh, I want to go back to,
00:26:32.980
a term that you use that, that I actually don't like you. You said my truth. Uh, I will, I will say
00:26:39.200
that I like how you described it because you're not saying it as absolute truth, which I think some
00:26:44.760
people conflate the two terms. This is objective truth versus this is just the reality, my perception
00:26:51.900
of a series of events. Oh, dude, those are two totally different things. Uh, I use anyone who thinks
00:26:58.660
that they know objective truth is about to, uh, scam you or steal from you. Good point. No, seriously.
00:27:07.320
Like there's anyone who's that foolish and that myopic, you can only be like a Marxist or a murderer.
00:27:16.400
Well, I think this, uh, it's, it's kind of funny you say that because I think this plays out quite
00:27:22.840
often in politics from politicians who want to steal from you and, uh, and from those who get
00:27:30.520
wrapped up, overly wrapped up in politics, believing that their side is objectively right. Always a
00:27:36.840
hundred percent of the time. Oh, of course. I mean, that's what politics is. It's just tribal warfare
00:27:41.980
is all. I mean, come on. Like how can you watch the last three years in America? If it took you that
00:27:47.560
long to figure out, okay, fine. But like, how can you live in America the last three years and not
00:27:52.180
realize politics is literally nothing, but tribal warfare that's made to look fancy and appropriate.
00:27:58.000
That's it. It's all it is. Right. Yeah. And I, and I think it's okay in a healthy quantity,
00:28:02.860
as long as you realize it for what it is, right. And you take it for what it is and you don't get
00:28:07.400
overly wrapped up in it. And you still focus on the things that actually pertain to your life,
00:28:12.680
not some random information that will never actually apply to you. Yeah. I don't know what
00:28:20.020
quantity useless tribal warfare is, is important though. I mean, like I, I pay attention to none of
00:28:25.660
it, man. Like it, like, or as little as I can get away with, like, I don't even know who's running
00:28:32.440
for the democratic primary. I don't care. Like, right. It doesn't matter. It literally doesn't
00:28:37.680
matter. It's a bunch of apes jockeying for status, the position on a status hierarchy
00:28:42.480
that I'm not on. Do you think that, well, you know, I don't know if you're, it's not that you're
00:28:48.600
not on it. Uh, I think we're all in it. Whether we realize it or not, if you choose to be in it,
00:28:55.400
you're in it. I don't, let me say this. You're impacted by it. Would you agree with that?
00:28:59.660
Um, I mean, I'd be foolish to say there's no way I'm impacted by it. Of course, like I live in the
00:29:10.160
country, but, uh, uh, so like the, of course there's ways for it to impact me. I think it's
00:29:15.920
far less impactful than most people think. Yeah. There's some people who would screw up a bunch
00:29:20.420
more stuff and blah, blah, blah. I'm sure. Okay. All that's true. Like, uh, so I'm not going to be
00:29:24.580
like, no, I'm not, I don't live on an Island by myself. Absolutely not. I live in America. I pay
00:29:28.580
taxes. Like, of course I'm impacted by it. I just, I don't think the president is really all that
00:29:35.780
impactful, um, to most people's day-to-day lives. I think the, I think the media does a good job
00:29:42.860
getting people spun up about it when it's not nearly as pertinent or relevant as they would
00:29:48.800
make it out to be. But if you understand the motive, that's a business model. That's what I'm
00:29:53.680
saying. Like, you know, and sometimes business models align, like if, uh, you know, a clothing
00:29:58.200
company, for example, or a car manufacturer wants to hype up their car and it aligns with the fact
00:30:02.780
that I need a vehicle, then okay. As long as I understand that motive, that it's their job to
00:30:07.880
paint their vehicle in the best light possible. And I take that into consideration, I can make
00:30:12.100
an effective purchase. Yeah. I mean, whatever. Like I get it. The only, the older I get, the more
00:30:23.860
emotional work I do, the more I check out of consumerist culture, like all of it. And the more
00:30:30.220
I focus on the people I love and care about and the work I do that matters to them.
00:30:36.340
Um, I, I think that's a, a great place to, uh, place your time and emphasis and energy
00:30:42.760
because that stuff is finite and we only have so much of it. So I think it's better spent there
00:30:47.040
for sure. Time's the only thing we can't replace, right? That's right. Hey, so when it comes to
00:30:52.400
therapy, you know, you talked about doing this for a long time and you've done a lot of different
00:30:55.980
modes and, and practices of therapy. What have you found to be the most useful for yourself?
00:31:01.800
So for me, um, uh, talk therapy was really good, but, uh, plant medicine therapy has just blown the
00:31:10.220
lid off for me, man. Like, so I started with MDMA therapy, uh, about a year and a half ago and I did,
00:31:17.500
uh, like six or seven sessions of that. And it was, man, it was just game changing for me in so many
00:31:24.880
ways. And, uh, like I, I had never felt love that deep. I had never felt safety that deep. I had all
00:31:31.500
kinds of stuff that I had buried, came up, dealt with it. I was able to let it go. It was so amazing.
00:31:38.480
Um, and then I also have done a few sessions of psilocybin therapy, like mushrooms, which has been
00:31:44.320
amazing. Uh, it's, oh man, it's, it's literally rewired my brain in certain ways. And like a lot of
00:31:51.580
negative patterns I was able to let go of really easily because it just made that easier. Um, and then
00:31:59.060
recently I moved up to or onto LSD therapy, which has been like pretty amazing too. Um, in a very
00:32:07.580
different way, like LSD just tears the facade off of reality and you see real clearly everything is
00:32:15.200
like, Oh wow. And yourself starting with yourself, but then, uh, everything else too. And it's, it's
00:32:21.360
pretty shocking, man. It's pretty breathtaking, but those modalities have, I probably done more work
00:32:26.700
over the last 18 months. I've made more progress over the last 18 months because, um, I, I, I
00:32:32.880
introduced those modalities to my, my therapeutic practice. And it's just been, I mean, I don't want
00:32:40.140
to say I'm a different person, but I am like, I'm the best version of myself I've ever been. And I keep
00:32:45.780
getting better. Man, let me hit the pause button on the conversation real quick. Uh, you've likely heard
00:32:51.480
about the iron council, uh, by now, uh, before, but, uh, what I wanted to share with you today is
00:32:56.560
something that we are working on starting next week. We call it the 12 week battle plan. And it's
00:33:01.960
a system that we've developed over the past five years to help you accomplish more in a 90 day span
00:33:07.300
than you potentially have in an entire year. Uh, in fact, when I wrote my book sovereignty, I completed
00:33:13.600
it using the battle planning cycle, uh, in the same system that the members of the iron council are
00:33:18.460
currently using. Obviously life has taken a very strange turn for most of you in 2020. Uh, but using
00:33:25.200
the battle plan and the accountability found inside of the iron council will help ensure that you get
00:33:30.060
back out ahead of things, uh, and make the most of a very, uh, very strange situation. We'll call it,
00:33:37.060
uh, if you want to learn more and band with us, head to order a man.com slash iron council to learn
00:33:42.080
more and to lock in your spot at the table again, order a man.com slash iron council. You can do that
00:33:47.760
after the show for now. I'll finish things up with Tucker. How do you, how do you measure that,
00:33:53.500
that progress? Like, what is it that you're quantifying when you say, man, I've made more
00:33:57.080
progress over the past year than I ever have. Like, what does that actually look like?
00:34:00.640
So for me, I think about how well am I connecting with my kids emotionally? Right. So like little
00:34:06.720
things like, um, it used to be my, I've got little kids. They're like five, three and eight months.
00:34:12.880
Right. So they lie, but only about like treats or things like they're not very manipulative yet.
00:34:18.180
Right. Or, or if they are manipulative, it's really transparent. I'm going to say they're
00:34:22.180
actually like super manipulative, but it's not usually like really transparent. It's like they
00:34:27.340
haven't been able to think of model my mind yet, you know? And, and so, um, so like, I'll give you a
00:34:33.800
really good example. So I used to get up early. I, my deal with my wife is when we have, you know,
00:34:38.520
like kids under a year, she breastfeeds and then, uh, they sleep in our bed. They co-sleep
00:34:44.160
right with her. And so that way I don't have to wake up. Like she deals with the kid all
00:34:48.120
night, but then in the morning I get up with the kids and she can sleep in and I kind of
00:34:53.000
do breakfast and whatever, which is like a perfect deal. She gets to sleep in. I don't
00:34:56.200
have to wake up at night. And so I'm a big fan of divisional labor, man. And so, uh, so
00:35:00.860
anyway, so she, um, uh, I noticed this, like after my second MDMA session, my kid, we
00:35:08.060
always hang out together in the living room, either watch TV or do something. They were
00:35:12.100
all climbing on top of me and sitting on me. Like, whereas before they, like they weren't
00:35:18.020
scared of me or anything, but they, I don't know. They, they just weren't like drawn to
00:35:22.700
me physically on top of me. Now it's almost a little annoying, man. Like I can't sit anywhere
00:35:29.060
without them climbing all over me, which half of me loves. Cause they're like little monkeys
00:35:33.160
and I love playing with them. The other half is like, okay, at some point you've got to
00:35:36.920
play with something else in our huge house. Like it can't all only just be me, but it's
00:35:41.880
like, uh, like that's just one of those small things, right. Or the way my wife and I interact,
00:35:46.640
the way we have sex, like it's always been great physically, but there's an emotional
00:35:51.240
element that's, we already had one, but it's just, there's depths of that, that like never
00:35:56.800
had before the way my company has grown, man. So much of what's happened here. I'm not
00:36:03.340
the CEO, but so much of the growth here. Like it's both me, me coaching certain people
00:36:11.220
and helping them being, being in a space to do that. But then also me getting out of the
00:36:15.660
way, man. Like the more medicine work you do, the more you kind of separate from your
00:36:20.180
ego and drop all the bullshit. And it's like, I didn't realize how many incredibly talented
00:36:25.620
people I had and how little I had to do for this company to actually grow faster. You know,
00:36:30.920
like those sorts of things, um, all real direct impacts in my life. Pretty much all
00:36:36.560
of them, uh, do in part to medicine doesn't do the work for you, man. The plant medicine,
00:36:41.780
it just opens up a space. It's a tool like, uh, uh, that opens up a space. Then you got
00:36:47.120
to kind of make realizations about yourself and apply them to your life. And they're hard
00:36:51.380
realizations, dude. And it brings up hard emotions. So like people have this, some people
00:36:55.560
have this idea in their head. It's like, Oh yeah, it'll be like doing an LSD at a concert.
00:36:58.600
It's like, no, it's not like that at all. It's hellish at times. Like one, I did one,
00:37:06.180
uh, session where I combined LSD and MDMA, which is a really good combination. And it
00:37:11.180
was seriously like doing two or three years of therapy in one day, but that's not like,
00:37:16.240
that's not easy, man. That's exhausting. Like that is like, it's, I felt the next day,
00:37:20.760
like I'd been in a fight. It was terrible, but I felt amazed. Like as I integrated, like I felt
00:37:26.480
incredible, you know, so it's been a big change, man. Yeah. I imagine I'm not familiar with, I mean,
00:37:32.800
I'm familiar with it, but not personally familiar. I haven't had any experiences that way. Um,
00:37:37.600
it seems to me from the outside looking in with limited information that it tears down
00:37:42.220
self-imposed and maybe even societally imposed barriers and limitations that we're not aware of.
00:37:48.720
Yes. That's a big, big part of it. So Terrence McKenna, who's probably one of the best thinkers
00:37:54.660
about psychedelics wrote about that all the time. That's huge. The, that, I don't know if that's
00:38:00.000
the biggest thing. The biggest thing for me was, man, I didn't realize how much trauma I had stored
00:38:04.680
in my body, how much unfelt feelings I had and how, how they drove the whole ship for me. And, and,
00:38:12.240
and a psychedelics and plant medicines opened a space where they could come up and I could feel them
00:38:16.720
and then let them go. That was really important. Yeah. LSD, especially though, is where it tears
00:38:21.940
down. It's like, Oh, you think this is reality? Wrong. Like, you know, like you think this wrong,
00:38:26.800
like it, it kind of showed, it doesn't even show you reality necessarily. It just breaks down what
00:38:31.740
you think is actually true, but you know, it's like, Oh man, I knew that a lot of it's stuff you
00:38:37.120
actually already know, or it's like, it doesn't necessarily give you answers. It just shows you
00:38:40.300
different angles on things. A lot of people have used LSD for creative work. I get it now,
00:38:45.000
man, because it really strips away a definite that one of the first things I saw on LSD and I knew
00:38:51.360
this, I knew this intellectually, but it was a different experience was how essentially we create
00:38:59.600
our own reality. Right. Not saying that there isn't some objective reality. I mean, we're like,
00:39:04.980
it's not like you're a figment of my imagination or vice versa, but that like pretty much like we use
00:39:11.760
words and concepts and ideas and stories to create our reality. And it was showed it to me in a way I
00:39:17.620
just had never seen or thought about like in a depth of it. And I was like, Oh my God, man. Like
00:39:24.100
I'm, I totally right. I had been locked in by a bunch of calcified ideas of other people that just
00:39:30.340
weren't true. Hmm. Interesting. Is this a, when, when you do these therapy sessions, are they done under
00:39:37.340
like medical supervision or do you work with somebody? Like, how does this, how does this
00:39:40.720
actually work? Yeah. So I use different facilitators for different medicines because
00:39:44.740
you have different people that are like kind of experts, but basically, I mean, look, this stuff's
00:39:48.520
all illegal right now. Right. So I'm breaking the law. Right. MDMA is scheduled to be legalized in
00:39:55.240
2021 or 2022. I think it's in stage three clinical trials. It's close. And then psilocybin is right
00:40:00.600
behind it. And it's already gotten breakthrough, um, treatment designation from the FDA. So they're
00:40:06.520
like, um, it's on the path to be legalized. Right. I'm just impatient. So I was like, fuck it,
00:40:10.740
I'm going to go do it myself. Um, but there are a lot of underground facilitate, not a lot. There are
00:40:15.540
a number of underground facilitators who've been the kind of pioneers who've been doing this for
00:40:20.860
decades, you know, and walking people through it. I, there's a whole world I had no idea about
00:40:25.200
recreational people doing stuff. I'm thinking like, you know, it's not like hippies doing their
00:40:31.280
thing. Yeah. I get it. I get it. It's none of that, man. Like I've never still never done any
00:40:36.180
of this recreationally ever. I can't, I don't know how people do this stuff recreationally,
00:40:40.640
man. It like, cause it, it is mind melting. Like I, like one of my facilitators has this massive house
00:40:47.420
or a massive, a massive kind of land that they live on in their house there. It's like, I go out
00:40:53.720
there and it's like a huge, and I mean like even going outside on one of these sessions a little
00:40:59.340
bit is mind bending to me. I have no idea how people do this and concerts or function on it,
00:41:06.440
but no, I have facilitators I work with and they're very experienced. Some have medical
00:41:09.940
backgrounds, some don't, um, but they all really know what they're doing and they help me, you know,
00:41:15.000
integration before and after and going into the medicine, working with it, moving the energy,
00:41:22.400
Yeah. I guess that's good. Cause you know, I think about it again, from the outside looking
00:41:27.220
in and not a whole lot of perspective on this is, you know, playing with a loaded gun, right? If
00:41:31.200
it's that powerful to, to impact positive change in you, it also means just, just as powerful to
00:41:36.700
impact negative and destructive change in you as well. Yeah. I would not recommend just being like,
00:41:42.180
Oh, I heard Tucker on a podcast. I'm gonna go buy LSD from a drug dealer and just see what it's
00:41:46.200
like. I would highly recommend you don't do that.
00:41:48.480
I, it's sad that you need to say that, but you know, there's a lot of people who, you know,
00:41:53.120
take what you might say or I might say, or any number of guests that we might have on and think,
00:41:57.220
Oh, well, because this guy did it, I guess I'll go do it. It's like, well, think about what are
00:42:01.720
you saying? Think about the context and the nuance and then be smart.
00:42:05.960
Just be smart. And it's sad that you need to say that, but man, we're in a situation. It seems
00:42:13.580
like where man, not a lot of people are anymore. You know, I read something I was, I was preparing
00:42:19.720
for our conversation and, and I read something, I can't remember exactly where I came across it,
00:42:23.860
but, uh, you had talked about maybe in an interview that, that you kind of resented your,
00:42:29.000
your past reputation and, uh, getting into this whole, you know, like red pill slash incel
00:42:36.360
manosphere movement. Can you, can you talk me through that a little bit and your thoughts about
00:42:41.240
those types of movements and causes? Yeah. So, um, I don't know. I'm not sure exactly what you read.
00:42:48.820
My guess is like, I don't like being associated with things and ideas that aren't mine. Right.
00:42:54.820
So like incels, not me, red pills, not me, manosphere is not me. Like those are other people's
00:43:02.560
things and ideas and tribes. And I don't really care. Like they can have their own thing,
00:43:07.080
whatever. Right. It has nothing to do with me. And so it's a trick that the media plays. I'm sure,
00:43:12.540
you know, is like, they'll take, if it's someone that they're talking about, whether they want to
00:43:18.880
raise or lower their status, they'll associate them with something that's seen as positive or
00:43:24.500
negative. Right. So like, like some media person who doesn't like me, they'll be like, you know,
00:43:29.720
Tucker Max, who commonly associated with manosphere movement or whatever, whatever is like in or out
00:43:35.540
at the moment. Right. And I just always hate being associated with things. I don't like being
00:43:39.820
associated with things that aren't mine. Like I'll carry my baggage. I'm not carrying anyone else's.
00:43:45.120
Is the problem that you don't have. I like that perspective. I'm wondering if the reason you do it is
00:43:50.320
because you don't have control over the narrative and there's so much outside of your control that
00:43:57.480
you might get lumped into something that is not representative of you or your thought process.
00:44:02.100
Oh, of course. That's a hundred percent. Why that's why that's the reason that's the whole thing.
00:44:08.100
Yeah, that makes sense. Um, I was wondering if there was something that you saw inside of those
00:44:13.060
movements, because I know there's a lot of guys listening that, uh, you know, they, and, and I agree
00:44:17.560
in that. I don't want to be associated with that either. I'm just wondering if there's something
00:44:20.920
inside of those movements that, uh, is, is a turnoff for you is, or something that you see
00:44:25.860
is not being healthy for men. Yeah. So it, it depends on the movement and it depends on the
00:44:31.040
part of the movement, right? I don't think there's a way to talk about the red pill movement consistently,
00:44:35.300
right? Sure. Yeah. Almost any idea you would say that, or if I said, well, I don't like X about
00:44:40.740
the red pill movement. I think you could plausibly say, hold on. I'm not sure that's part of it.
00:44:44.020
Right. Right. Um, right. Maybe incels are a little more tightly defined, but I mean,
00:44:48.120
do we really have to talk about why I'm not a fan of dudes who are in the idea of involuntary
00:44:55.120
celibacy? You've already told your own story. That's just nonsense, right? Right. Sure. No
00:44:59.980
doubt. I mean, look, bless your heart, man, but you've told yourself this story and this is who
00:45:04.080
you're going to be. So like you paid, like, don't get mad if you wrecked your car when you drove into a
00:45:08.700
pole on purpose. Right. Yeah. And then, um, but look, if there is a thread in the manosphere
00:45:15.200
movement that I always, um, chafed against or didn't like, it seemed like there was a deep thread
00:45:23.400
of resentment and anger towards women. Right. And, and like not all dudes in the, in that movement and
00:45:30.840
not all people, I'm not whatever, but it seemed like, um, there were especially like some of the
00:45:36.760
bigger voices, like they hate women and everything they talk about is about just so toxic and
00:45:45.720
destructive, man. And it's like, oh, and I see these younger guys like, oh, well this person has
00:45:52.800
an audience and he says that I should do this. I'm going to, I'm like, that person's a sociopath
00:45:57.140
and he hates himself. Following him maybe isn't the right path, but if you want to try, go try.
00:46:03.520
Right. I mean, like you'll figure it out, man, you'll end up lonely and sad and like, okay, maybe
00:46:08.440
I need to try something else. Right. And so like, like that, that was always the thread that like,
00:46:14.760
I mean, there's positive threads of it too, but I just, it just always like, cause what annoyed me
00:46:23.020
about being associated with that is like, uh, I'm like everything I ever did in my books and my life
00:46:29.440
was about getting women to like me. So they would sleep with me, which is its own issue. And you can
00:46:34.480
treat that. And I get it. Like, I know that I know the critiques of that better than anybody. Right.
00:46:39.160
But like, you've heard them all. I'm sure. Right. Of course. And I know what the real ones are. Like I
00:46:43.440
get what's wrong with that mindset very well. It's part of what I've had to, to kind of deal with,
00:46:48.320
but that's not hating women. That's about like, I want this, I'm going to go have fun. And there was a
00:46:54.740
positive sort of side to it, or at least a joyous side where so much of the red pill stuff was just
00:47:01.940
so toxically negative and hateful. And I'm like, this is, I just didn't want to be associated with
00:47:07.440
it. That's really it. Yeah. No, I wanted to talk about it because it was something that I saw and
00:47:12.500
got brought up and it's actually something that we'd deal with as well, you know, is, is we can get
00:47:16.340
lumped into that, what I'm doing here into that category pretty quickly. And I agree. I think the
00:47:21.520
underlying thread of a lot of these movements is victimhood, right? It's that we, we are, we are
00:47:26.280
victims. And so therefore we need to fight back or we need to rebel or, or it almost in a way moves
00:47:32.900
towards becoming the masculine version of third wave feminism. It a hundred percent is, it's not
00:47:39.760
almost, it is exactly what it is. Oh yeah. No, a hundred percent. Oh no. I like, I've made that point
00:47:46.160
and this was a few years ago or some point like that. And I mean, dude, all the manosphere, uh,
00:47:52.040
pansies got their panties in a wad and freaked out. And I'm like, all right, well then that your
00:47:57.020
reaction should tell you, uh, that it's exactly right. It is. We're victims. The other side is
00:48:02.440
the enemy. We're right about everything. They're wrong about everything. I'm like, all right, there
00:48:07.300
you go. Like, what do you want? You know? Yeah. I think this comes back down to what you were
00:48:11.860
talking about earlier with the, with the tribalism and it's us versus them when, when in all reality,
00:48:17.020
you know, I look at a man's relationship, men's relationship in general with women is
00:48:21.580
that of cooperation, not necessarily competition, right? Like we need to cooperate, cooperate with
00:48:28.300
women. Women need to cooperate with us, whether it's raising a family or running an organization or
00:48:33.560
just operating like functional human beings in society. We need to cooperate and work together to
00:48:39.000
make things happen. A hundred percent. There's enough hardship on, on earth. We don't need to
00:48:44.000
be fighting men and women don't need to be fighting. Like we can have our, our interests were aligned for
00:48:48.480
thousands of years. They can still be aligned if we want. It's a choice. Like, yeah, yeah. Well,
00:48:56.060
what's next for you, man? What's, uh, obviously you've got scribe and I imagine you have interest in
00:49:00.680
other businesses as well, but what are some, uh, some plans that you have moving, moving into the
00:49:06.780
future? So honestly, the big thing is what I talked about earlier is, is the memoir workshop. We call
00:49:11.640
it one last book. Cause the idea is if you were to write one last book, what would you say? And
00:49:17.280
kind of as a prompt to get people to really think, okay, I got to put my whole truth in here. Um,
00:49:23.040
and that's, that's this whole year for me is really focused on that. I feel like we haven't hit the peak
00:49:30.120
of the tribalism phase. I think it's going to peak in like, probably with a general election in
00:49:35.020
November. Like that'll be the way. And then it's going to get interesting. Hopefully it'll be so
00:49:39.420
awful that everyone with a brain is like, okay, that's terrible. Let's never do that again and go
00:49:45.320
the other way. And I think people are going to really start to, you talked about localism.
00:49:49.400
I'm a big fan of that. I'm, I think it's really that that movement is coming. And I also think a
00:49:54.820
movement of a way from I'm a woman and man are bad, or I'm a Democrat and Republicans are bad. And
00:50:01.240
who am I? Why am I angry? Why am I sad? Cause it probably has nothing to do with a political
00:50:08.560
party or a gender. It probably has a lot to do with my own life and how I was raised, what I got,
00:50:14.620
what I didn't get, how I'm acting, what my life is like. And it's not the only way to take
00:50:20.960
responsibility and accountability for your life. But I think a really good place for a lot of people to
00:50:25.240
start is by actually writing out, thinking about and uncovering what their truths are and what their
00:50:31.600
life has been and writing that out so they can see, okay, this is who I actually am. And then that's a
00:50:38.280
good place for a lot of people, not everyone, but a lot of people to start. I agree with that. I,
00:50:43.380
you know, when I, when I wrote my book, which was a couple of years ago, last month, it was two years
00:50:49.260
ago. Uh, I, I thought I had a pretty good idea of like the experiences I had and what they
00:50:55.880
culminated into and what I believed. And that book writing process was actually very therapeutic for
00:51:02.960
me because I was able to crystallize some thoughts and then, and, and reevaluate some thoughts as well.
00:51:08.900
Like I actually don't know if I believe that, or where did I learn that? Cause I don't think that's
00:51:13.400
serving me and, and going through the process myself was very, very, uh, powerful to help me
00:51:19.780
shore up what it is I was all about and what I wanted to create. It was a good process for me.
00:51:24.920
There's very, I actually like writing better than just therapy because it's so easy to talk yourself
00:51:32.440
in circles in therapy. But if you're sitting down and willing to be honest with yourself,
00:51:37.200
writing about your life, especially with a few key prompts and a few key questions,
00:51:42.660
you'll unlock a lot more than you will in therapy, especially therapy alone.
00:51:48.180
That's a good, that's a good, that's a good, uh, a good thought too, is that those, those prompts,
00:51:52.820
right? I can't tell you, even when it comes to like journaling, for example, how many guys will
00:51:56.300
say, well, I don't know how to journal. I'm like, I don't know, just write things, you know,
00:51:59.620
but having those prompts is actually really just is powerful. And no, it helps you do it in the right
00:52:04.080
way. No, it is dude. I mean, I'll tell you, it's so funny. We have a, the, the workshop is three days
00:52:10.260
for, um, for one last book. And I'm not joking when I tell you it might be an hour and a half,
00:52:17.200
two hours max spread over three days of actual writing instruction, because it's so simple.
00:52:23.560
Like I'll, I'll tell you that the literally the algorithm we use for, for writing your,
00:52:27.720
your one last book, it's three questions. What happened? How did you feel about it? What did
00:52:34.620
you do or learn as a result? And just repeat it over and over again, over and over and over.
00:52:40.900
Now the devil of this is in the details because like the reason it's three days is because once
00:52:47.600
you start asking deeper questions about your life, why you're writing the book, what you're
00:52:52.560
hoping to get out of it, all this emotional, if you're, if you're in the space where you want to
00:52:56.380
do it, right? If you don't want to write the book, then it doesn't make sense. But if you're in that
00:52:59.440
space, then all this emotional stuff comes out. And so we kind of help you navigate through that,
00:53:04.280
right? Understanding what, you know, what's coming up, why is it coming up, how to write
00:53:08.240
about it, all that kind of stuff. But the actual instructions are dead simple. What happened?
00:53:13.680
How did I feel? What did I learn? Yeah. I could see this being like some sort of, I don't know,
00:53:18.780
like an exercise clinic, you know, it's like people go to these clinics. It's like, well, you know,
00:53:23.080
you need to just lift heavy weights, but, but there's some nuance there. Like there's some ways to do it
00:53:29.080
that won't get you hurt. And, uh, I imagine that's what you're filling in there.
00:53:33.160
Basically pretty much. So with, with all due respect to what you're doing, uh, I'm really
00:53:38.980
curious. Do you think with the, the rise of self-publishing and how many people have a desire
00:53:45.520
to write a book and now it's becoming easier and easier to do with self-publishing and your
00:53:49.320
options like yours and Amazon that it, I don't know if cheapens is the right word, but just saturates
00:53:56.040
the, the, the market so much that it becomes ineffective or unimportant.
00:54:00.340
No, that's a scarcity mindset. I actually think it's the other way around. I think, um, I think
00:54:06.300
there is a never ending supply for honest, authentic, meaningful stories. That's all we
00:54:14.360
consume as humans, right? I mean, like it's the information is a tiny bit of it. All the rest
00:54:20.860
is context and story. And I think what we're trying to do is teach people how to really uncover
00:54:27.580
their story and tell their story. Um, uh, because you got to uncover it first. Most people don't
00:54:33.200
know. Like you said, you sat down and write, you realize all this stuff about your life and
00:54:36.780
you seem like a pretty, uh, observant and dialed in and self-aware guy, right? Far more than
00:54:42.440
most people. Well, imagine what most people are like, dude, you know? And so it's like,
00:54:46.700
okay, how do you actually do that? We don't, I mean, I know you know this, but like, think
00:54:51.920
about the most important things, relationships, love, self-awareness, we don't teach any of
00:54:58.260
this in our culture, right? And so like, if we can teach people how to just how to understand
00:55:04.280
their own story and tell it to others, that by itself, I think there's an endless demand.
00:55:09.700
I know I would much rather read amazingly heartfelt memoirs than watch another stupid zombie show
00:55:16.740
on Netflix, right? But if there's no good heart, I mean, I've read all the good memoirs. I feel like,
00:55:22.480
you know, there aren't that many more. Well, what's interesting is everybody's got a story
00:55:27.820
and somebody needs to hear your story because they would be impacted positively by it. And what I hear
00:55:34.900
a lot of guys, whether they say it or not, what they're, what they're telling themselves is learning
00:55:39.900
how to communicate effectively. Isn't really all that important because we know how to do it because
00:55:43.680
we do it every day. It's like, well, no, like the reason that you need to learn how to get good at
00:55:48.940
it is because somebody can be served. And that somebody could be your son or your wife or the
00:55:54.460
little kid who's on your baseball team or a coworker or an employee, like somebody will be impacted
00:56:00.180
positively by you learning how to communicate, whether it's spoken or written word.
00:56:06.640
You just wrote my marketing copy. I was literally just, I was taking notes. I'm not even kidding,
00:56:12.880
man. If you heard a typing sound, that's what that was.
00:56:15.960
That's funny. Well, good, good. Glad I could help. Hey, Tucker, man, I've appreciated this
00:56:21.420
conversation. I was really looking forward to it and actually kind of curious about how this,
00:56:24.940
how this would go down. But I am, I am pleasantly surprised and really enjoyed our conversation
00:56:34.480
Hey, let me ask you a couple additional questions. The first one is what does it mean to be a man?
00:56:39.120
Yeah. Um, that's such a hard question because I, I, I, I don't, I hate all of the, um, tribal
00:56:52.240
answers. Oh, men, you know, smell like gas. Men do hard work. Men this, men that it's like,
00:56:57.580
like throw all that shit away. Um, the thing that's always resonated with me, um, is that men
00:57:06.820
are responsible and accountable, um, for, for safety and protection and provisions. Right.
00:57:16.140
And I don't think I've wordsmith that exactly right. Or thought about it deep enough, but
00:57:20.820
like, because look, the, the hard biological reality is that, uh, women are the basis of
00:57:29.260
biology, right? Like, like beings, the gender that reproduces is the basis of biology. And the
00:57:36.220
only reason sex exists is because essentially parasitic competition, right? So we had to,
00:57:43.420
uh, uh, men had to be created. I don't mean human men, I mean males and females in a, in a biologic
00:57:50.220
sense because, um, just women reproducing, right? Like, uh, you know, like, uh, non-sexual reproduction,
00:57:57.560
which is salamanders. I mean, it's pretty, all cells do, um, is, uh, is eventually gets
00:58:03.300
destroyed by parasitic competition. Right. And so if you understand that, then you understand like
00:58:08.600
women are kind of the center biologically. And our job is, we got to provide sperm of course,
00:58:15.140
but like our, our purpose is to then provide everything around that reproduction, right?
00:58:22.940
Safety is number one, physical safety. We live in a world now where it's not as paramount, but it's
00:58:28.180
still more real than you think. Most people, physical safety, emotional safety, all of that
00:58:34.100
sort of stuff. And like, you know, environmental safety, shelter, food, all these that's safety,
00:58:40.320
right? We, you know, we provide that the, the, the mother provides life and sustenance to life.
00:58:48.480
Right. And again, I'm not speaking like women have to stay home. I'm talking about on a, on a high
00:58:53.440
level metaphorical basis. So to me, what I have to do, you know what, what it boils down to, I got
00:59:00.660
to earn my place. Every man has got to earn his place. And what manhood means to me is earning your
00:59:06.840
place. Women don't have, and I don't mean this as an insult. You don't have biologically, you don't
00:59:12.200
have to earn your place. Like you just have a period and then you can have kids. Of course you have to
00:59:17.660
earn things in life. You're not, there's no welfare line for women. I'm not saying that,
00:59:22.660
but I'm saying that you don't, they, they are the essence of life. We are an addition to it.
00:59:27.760
Right. And so we've got to earn our place. And I don't approach that from a level of insecurity.
00:59:33.140
I, the other way around, I think it's awesome. It's our chance to be a hero. That's the whole
00:59:38.060
hero's journey for us is they're already going to provide life. We get to go be heroes, but we have
00:59:44.100
to earn it. Right. And so I see so many dudes now who are like, are afraid of that. And it's
00:59:49.580
heartbreaking. Cause it's like, that's the whole reason you're here is to go be some level of a
00:59:54.820
hero for someone. I like it, man. It's powerful. I like the way that you frame that. We talk a lot
00:59:59.840
about some of those concepts you talked about, but the way you framed is very interesting. So I
01:00:03.200
appreciate you sharing. All right, man. How do we connect with you? Learn more about scribe or
01:00:07.060
anything else that you have going on? Where do we go? Uh, scribewriting.com is my site.
01:00:11.240
And then I'm all over social media, Tucker max, easy to find right on brother. We'll sync it all
01:00:17.000
up again. I really appreciate you coming on. Um, I'm inspired by your transformation and evolution
01:00:21.280
over the past decade or so that I've been familiar with your work. I think I first came across you,
01:00:25.420
I don't know, probably in some bookstore in an airport or something like that. I'm sure where I
01:00:29.900
saw your, your books first. So, uh, it's cool to be able to talk with you and see how you've
01:00:33.780
changed and transformed your life. I really respect that about you. Thanks, man. Appreciate it.
01:00:38.640
Gentlemen, there you go. My conversation with the one and only Tucker max. I hope you enjoyed that
01:00:43.700
one. And I hope also that you saw a different light or a different side of Tucker than maybe
01:00:47.520
you've seen in the past or that you're familiar with. Uh, we'd love to hear what you think about
01:00:52.120
the show, hit him up on, on the socials, hit me up on the socials. Uh, let me know. Let's continue
01:00:56.960
the conversation there. And that's what this is about. It's about having conversation, uh, with people
01:01:02.000
who are doing great things, people who have interesting stories to share, and then extracting some of
01:01:06.600
their knowledge and wisdom, and then, uh, implementing in our own lives. And that's the
01:01:10.280
most important thing guys is implementation. If we're just listening to the podcast and we're not
01:01:14.480
applying or implementing any of the things that we're learning about, we're wasting time. So make
01:01:18.760
sure that you're applying this stuff and that, uh, it is in fact serving you by putting it into
01:01:23.300
action. So we'll wrap things up today. Uh, we're going to be back again for the, ask me anything
01:01:27.800
tomorrow. Uh, I've got a couple of surprise guests that I'm going to bring on here in the next
01:01:31.560
several weeks, uh, because we need to talk about some of this Corona vault virus fallout
01:01:36.200
and everything else that's going on. So stay tuned for that. Uh, make sure you subscribe to the
01:01:40.360
podcast. If you would also just leave me a rating review. All right. Cause it goes a long way,
01:01:45.400
just a very long way in promoting the visibility of the show and what we're doing and getting this
01:01:49.880
message of reclaiming and restoring masculinity out to the masses, which is exactly where it needs to be.
01:01:54.860
So make sure you subscribe, make sure you share it, leave a rating review and, uh, continue to tune in again.
01:01:59.920
We'll be back tomorrow. And then also Friday for our Friday field notes, let me and Tucker know what
01:02:04.220
you thought about the show and the conversation. And we'll, uh, we'll continue this over on the,
01:02:07.800
uh, the socials, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, wherever you're doing it. All right, guys,
01:02:12.260
we'll be back tomorrow until then go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.
01:02:16.780
Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life
01:02:21.240
and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.