Order of Man - Redefining Yourself ｜ TUCKER MAX

00:00:00.000 Most of you familiar with Tucker Max, and regardless of what you think about him, there

00:00:03.520 is no fence sitting. You either love the guy or hate him. But that's part of the reason

00:00:07.680 I wanted to have a conversation with him to find out what makes him so polarizing and

00:00:11.720 how he feels about it. That said, the biggest reason I wanted to talk with him is to learn

00:00:15.840 about his ability to redefine himself from college frat boy to successful entrepreneur,

00:00:21.800 husband, and father. I think we can all relate to messing up some things along the way. And

00:00:27.480 many of us have or are working on our own redemption story. Today, Tucker and I talk about

00:00:32.660 speaking the truth, overcoming judgment, the reality of the zero F's mentality, and ultimately

00:00:38.700 how to redefine yourself. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears

00:00:44.520 and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every

00:00:50.240 time you are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life.

00:00:56.920 This is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and

00:01:02.680 done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler,

00:01:08.300 and I am the host and the founder of this podcast and the movement that is Order of Man. I want to

00:01:13.020 welcome you here. I want to welcome you back. Obviously, we are in unprecedented times right now,

00:01:18.900 uncharted territory. And it's been a little interesting around here in the Order of Man podcast

00:01:25.060 studio and offices. But we're getting a lot done. We're trying to put a lot of content out and make

00:01:30.420 it available to you as a leader, a father, a husband, a business owner, again, a leader in

00:01:35.240 your community, whatever facet of life you're showing up as. So make sure you subscribe and

00:01:39.420 make sure you share this with other men. There's other men who need to hear what we are sharing

00:01:42.680 now more than ever, because they've got time on their hands and there's a lot of doubt and variables

00:01:48.620 and uncertainty. And hopefully we're bringing to light and some ideas and insights on how to be a

00:01:55.180 more effective father and husband. And again, every other facet of life that you're showing up as

00:01:59.360 we've got some great interviews lined up coming up down the road. And also in the past, we've had

00:02:04.720 guys like Jocko Willink and Grant Cardone and John Eldridge and Andy Frisilla and Tim Kennedy. And

00:02:10.760 our lineup of men who have banded with us is absolutely incredible. And I'm working on some

00:02:15.240 even more incredible guests as we move down the line. So again, make sure you subscribe,

00:02:20.120 whether you do it here and listening to the podcast or on YouTube at youtube.com slash order

00:02:24.860 of men. So you can see the podcast as well, including this conversation with, with Tucker.

00:02:30.320 So yeah, I'm going to get into the conversation here in just a minute. I do want to make a very

00:02:35.460 quick mention of my friends and show sponsors origin, Maine. You, if you're following me on Instagram,

00:02:41.740 you've probably seen, I've highlighted them over the past several days because they

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00:03:06.160 about origin so much. This is part of the reason they're making great products, but they're also

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00:03:16.580 their Instagram page, go to their, their website, and you'll see what it is they're doing. I think

00:03:21.700 they're calling it the defender mask, but pretty cool to see these guys step up in a time of need

00:03:26.820 and a time of crisis and solve a problem where most people just see most people see the problems.

00:03:32.280 They don't see the solutions. These guys are actually providing and building and making the

00:03:35.740 solutions here. A hundred percent made in America. So go check it out. Origin, main.com origin, main.com.

00:03:41.880 All right, guys, let me get into the conversation today. Again, it's with Tucker max. A lot of,

00:03:46.360 you know him. And if you're like me, you ran across one of his New York times, bestselling books in an

00:03:50.840 airport or a bookstore somewhere. And it's likely that's the case because he's sold over four and a

00:03:56.980 half million copies of these books. He's been credited with starting the literary genre frat tire,

00:04:02.620 where he details and documents his college day exploits. And although that's what made him famous,

00:04:09.800 his ability to redefine himself from those days to who he is today is what really had me interested

00:04:14.580 in talking with him. Uh, he's now the founder of scribe media and is helping other people tell their

00:04:19.800 own stories in their own unique way, uh, and giving a voice to those who need it. And for those who need

00:04:26.820 to hear it. So I hope you enjoy the podcast. I would love to hear your feedback after you have a

00:04:31.400 chance to listen to the show. Tucker, what's up, man? Thanks for joining me on the podcast.

00:04:36.380 Thanks for having me, Ryan. Yeah, you bet. I, uh, I've been looking forward to the conversation

00:04:40.100 because, uh, you're a man who, who seems to be pretty polarizing and somebody that from afar,

00:04:47.720 from a distance, uh, somebody who's really seemed to have, uh, turned their life around and changed a

00:04:53.040 lot of ways. I'm looking forward to talking with you about that. Thanks, man. Me too. Would you,

00:04:57.520 uh, would you agree that that's a, that's a pretty good assessment? Obviously a very quick

00:05:01.440 and, uh, overview of, of your life, but is that a good assessment that you've changed and,

00:05:06.240 uh, really pivoted your life? How would you describe it? I mean, I've definitely changed.

00:05:11.680 There's no doubt, man. The only, the only people who don't change are dead people.

00:05:15.400 Yeah, that's true. Well, let me ask you this. Have you, it's a matter of if you change for the

00:05:19.420 worst or better, right? Well, dude, I mean, listen, if I had changed for the worst,

00:05:23.940 then I would rechange, you know, like I definitely think I've chosen my change. I've chosen my path.

00:05:30.480 Clearly I'm doing it at least for what I think is the better. Yeah. Yeah. What, uh, what caused a lot

00:05:35.960 of the, uh, evolution and growth in your life? Is it just a level of maturity? Is it revisiting

00:05:41.520 past, uh, past experiences? Like how do you begin to change in your own life? The reason I bring this

00:05:47.920 up is because I know there's a lot of guys who are listening who feel like maybe they can't get past,

00:05:53.360 uh, experiences or mistakes they've had and they're victims and yet they don't know quite how to do it.

00:05:59.520 Yeah. So, um, it's funny you say that. I got an email today, literally from a guy who's like

00:06:06.860 older and he's like, you know, I've got no skills. I feel like I'm useless. Like I can't do anything.

00:06:12.200 I'll work for free. No one will hire me. And I'm just like, yeah. Um, honestly, man,

00:06:19.100 the way I started changing is the real, the first thing that had to happen was I had to get sick of 0.99

00:06:26.020 my bullshit, right? Like you, I forget who said it, but you basically change doesn't start until 0.98

00:06:34.100 the pain of change becomes less than the pain of staying the same. Right. And so for me, for a long

00:06:41.960 time, the pain of staying the same was not that painful. And, um, and so it was like, all right,

00:06:48.120 well, I keep doing this. I mean, that's, I think Bill Gates definitely said, uh, he said this,

00:06:53.040 it's success only teaches you how to keep going and, and which is fine. Like if you're being

00:06:58.020 successful and you like your life and things are going great, then you can keep going. And there's

00:07:03.520 nothing wrong with that, I guess. Uh, but what I realized, um, multiple times in my life is that

00:07:09.460 the life I had and the life I wanted or the life I had was not, um, not the life I wanted. And so

00:07:16.040 then, and then of course, like you go through the normal cycle, at least I did, of fixing everything,

00:07:21.560 everything externally, money, power, women, uh, uh, muscles, whatever it is you're going to define 1.00

00:07:29.960 yourself by. Uh, and then you realize, or at least I realized the external didn't matter that, um,

00:07:37.140 that, uh, it didn't matter how rich or powerful, uh, or in shape I was or how many women wanted me, 0.99

00:07:43.440 it didn't change the underlying emotions. And so I decided, all right, I've got to go address those.

00:07:50.920 Like I've got to go fix what's inside or deal with what's inside. Um, because that's where it all

00:07:57.540 begins. And if I don't do that, then the rest of the stuff is just bullshit. It's just a distraction. 0.99

00:08:02.680 Um, so that, that's how I started, man. That's how, at least for me. Yeah. It's funny because a

00:08:08.440 lot of guys will say, well, you know, money doesn't solve the problems or whatever else,

00:08:11.960 these external factors. And these guys will say, well, that's easy for you to say you have it.

00:08:15.500 Right. But what's funny is like, I didn't, I, I think I had less problems when I had less money,

00:08:21.620 actually, seriously, they were just a couple of big problems, but I didn't have many problems.

00:08:26.580 I was just poor. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and, uh, I think there's been studies too,

00:08:32.360 that have shown, you know, if you were to ask three or four, a hundred people, how much money

00:08:37.760 you need to make, and we'll just isolate that, how much money you need to make to be happy.

00:08:41.520 It's always going to be 10 to 20% more than you're currently making, right? Like, like regardless of

00:08:46.540 what level of wealth you're at. And so it's, it's not the money. I mean, yeah, we've got to make a

00:08:50.400 living and we've got to find some, some ways to put food on the table and have some experiences,

00:08:54.600 but I agree. It goes so much deeper than just those external sources of, uh, of happiness,

00:08:59.600 if you will. Yeah. No, I mean, look, uh, I think the, the definitive study on this show that about

00:09:07.120 somewhere between 70 to $80,000, depending on where you live, like the, just call it the average place

00:09:13.220 in America, like Tulsa, Oklahoma. If you're somewhere North of 70 or 80,000, then adding money has almost

00:09:21.320 no impact on your happiness below that than adding some money. Cause uh, somewhere around 70, 80 for

00:09:26.960 the average American gives you stability. Sure. And then at that point, money doesn't matter.

00:09:31.720 It's internal life. Right. You said you had to get sick of your own bullshit. How would you describe

00:09:38.660 that for you? Like in what ways did that show and manifest itself? Oh man. Um, well, I'm not really

00:09:45.840 the best model for that, man. Like I, so the first time, the first major time it happened was, um,

00:09:55.280 it was right after law or it was in law school. What over the summer, I was working in a law firm

00:10:01.020 called Fenwick and West. And I realized like a week into being a summer associate, but it's basically

00:10:08.220 like a trial run for a lawyer. I realized I absolutely hated being a lawyer and that it was the worst

00:10:13.880 soul sucking job I could ever imagine. And that I would rather put a bullet in my brain than do that. 0.99

00:10:20.420 But I did not in any way, shape or form have the courage to recognize that to myself at all,

00:10:25.820 because all I could see was, well, you know, like I went to good schools, being a lawyer is respected.

00:10:32.120 I'm going to make a ton of money. You have a bunch of power. I'm supposed to want this. And I hated it.

00:10:36.480 And so the only way I could find to deal with that man was to like, get drunk and act like an 1.00

00:10:43.940 asshole. Because when you hate your life, that's a good way to deal with it. It's an effective way 1.00

00:10:49.360 when you're young, especially to deal with your emotions is drink a lot, act like an idiot, sleep 1.00

00:10:54.420 with a bunch of girls, pick fights, whatever, all like all that whole thing. And so I got fired two 1.00

00:10:59.220 and a half weeks into that job. Cause I, I, it's impossible to get fired as a summer associate.

00:11:04.420 And I did it. I found a way and two and a half weeks, no less at that whole stories. And I hope

00:11:09.500 they serve beer in hell. And it's a really funny story if you weren't me. Um, anyway, so like that. 0.97

00:11:14.860 And then, so I blew up my life, man. Like I just straight up blew up my life instead of

00:11:19.460 really sitting down, feeling what I was feeling and being realizing, okay, I made a wrong decision,

00:11:24.540 but I can like fix it in a smart way. I couldn't do it. Another big way I can think of where I had to

00:11:32.000 get sick of my shit was, um, it's hard to pinpoint an exact moment, but I think, uh, it started when 0.98

00:11:40.040 the movie based on my first book didn't do very well. It did like a couple of million at the 0.98

00:11:44.520 theaters, but it was nowhere near what I wanted to do. And it was like, it was, dude, it was soul

00:11:49.800 crushing for me, which of course is the most ridiculous white, rich white person problem 1.00

00:11:54.080 that exists. Right. There was a movie made about my life before I was 35 and it didn't do a hundred 1.00

00:12:00.000 million at the box office. And so I'm like, I'm just emotionally crushed. Right. It's hilarious

00:12:07.260 to think about, but dude, it's like God's honest truth. I really was, man. It was like really hard

00:12:12.420 for me to deal with. And that would kind of started a cascade of things where like all of this negative

00:12:20.680 emotion, sadness, anxiety, depression started coming up. And it wasn't just about the movie. It was like

00:12:26.920 the movie failing unlocked all that stuff that was already in me. Right. But I was using all the

00:12:33.340 success to hide it, to cover it over. And that was like the first failure, the first real failure I

00:12:38.560 had. And it was like, Oh shit. And so it took about another year of me kind of wallowing in my 0.99

00:12:45.540 bullshit until I was, I just got sick of it. And then I called, you know, a therapist and I went to, 0.98

00:12:51.260 it took me about 20 therapists to find a good one. And then I started kind of my therapeutic journey,

00:12:54.960 which I'm still on a lot of different modalities and I've tried, et cetera. But like, um, I,

00:13:01.840 in my experience, man, I've always known, man, you know, like, you know, if you're at all connected 0.98

00:13:07.920 to yourself, you know, when you're full of shit and you know, when you're lying to yourself, it's just 0.98

00:13:13.040 sitting down and admitting it, you know, I should say, as I get older, I've done that, you know? 1.00

00:13:18.920 Yeah. I mean, I think it comes with just a level of maturity, but I imagine the therapy and other

00:13:23.380 things that you've gone through help as well. Did you, so when you were doing the internship,

00:13:27.840 is that when the blog and the book writing and all that came along?

00:13:30.620 No, that was before. That was before that.

00:13:32.740 Yeah.

00:13:33.020 So how did you begin to pivot and, and switch when you, you realized, okay, I'm miserable, 0.88

00:13:38.760 but I don't have the balls to get out of this, this industry or this road I'm going down. Like, 0.94

00:13:43.640 what did you do to start pivoting?

00:13:45.140 Yeah. So, um, like, you know, some entrepreneurs have amazing stories of like, oh, I did this and

00:13:52.140 I figured this out. Mine is like the opposite, right? So I actually don't believe a lot of those

00:13:56.720 stories though. Cause like these guys paint these perfect stories of like this one thing happened

00:14:01.540 and then I formulated this perfect plan. I'm like, that is not my world. And it sounds like it's not

00:14:05.560 yours either.

00:14:06.080 Not mine either. No. So I sabotaged my career unconsciously, sabotaged my career, got fired

00:14:13.080 two and a half years in or two and a half weeks into being a lawyer. So I went back, finished my

00:14:17.540 last year at Duke. So I didn't graduate. And then I went to work for my dad who owns some restaurants

00:14:22.420 in South Florida. My dad fired me from the family business six months in. So like, dude, I mean,

00:14:31.140 like I got fired from an unfireable job twice. Look who gets fired from the family business.

00:14:37.500 Yeah. Yeah.

00:14:38.260 I did. Uh, and so good for your dad though. I mean, it was a great, it was the best thing that

00:14:43.860 happened. Both of those things are the best thing that God forbid, man, if I was a lawyer,

00:14:47.020 Oh God, I can't think of how horrible my life would be. Um, so after that, uh, my friends from law

00:14:53.980 school, like I was sending them emails telling them I live in South Florida, which is, you know,

00:14:57.920 the armpit of America. And like, I was talking about how much I hated my life and writing funny

00:15:02.220 emails. Cause I was still going out, getting drunk, hooking up with girls. I just hated it.

00:15:06.260 Like, but I didn't know what else to do. And so I was writing emails to my friends about it. And

00:15:10.140 they're like, dude, you're real bad at business and law, but this writing thing you're good at. 1.00

00:15:15.100 And I'm like, what kind of bitch becomes a writer? Like get out of here. Right. And they're like, 1.00

00:15:19.800 okay, well, what else are you going to do? Right. Yeah. Like sleeping with skanks, 1.00

00:15:23.820 South Florida skanks is not a job unless you're a drug dealer. And I'm like, I'm not going to do 0.98

00:15:27.580 that. So, uh, I like, I was like, all right. So I started, I sent my emails, like it took like

00:15:34.600 this five, six funniest ones, sent them to every, this is 2000, 2002 mind you. Okay. So like,

00:15:41.040 this is like before Facebook or my space or blogs existed or anything, I sent them to every single

00:15:47.560 publisher and every single agent in the country. And there were a lot that not, not like now,

00:15:53.300 like a huge book full of addresses, probably a thousand query letters. Every single one rejected

00:15:58.940 me. Like most of them just ignored it. Right. Right. You didn't hear anything back. Right. I

00:16:03.860 maybe got 30 form rejections. I actually got like three or four serious, like customized,

00:16:09.940 personalized rejections about how horrible I was and how everything was terrible. I should never even

00:16:14.320 write an email again. And, but at this point I ignored them because at this point I had been getting

00:16:19.760 my emails forwarded back to me from like other people in other social circles. Like my friends

00:16:24.840 for, I only would send my emails to like my eight friends in law school. It wasn't like an email.

00:16:28.900 I didn't have an email list. Those things didn't really exist then. Right. It wasn't there.

00:16:32.080 No click funnels to your buddies. Right. Like, like what people do in group chats now you had to do

00:16:36.740 over email. And so like, uh, I started getting those forwarded back to me from like guys I knew from

00:16:42.160 high school and they'd be like, Oh dude, if you read this story, it's so hilarious. And I'm like,

00:16:46.620 asshole scroll. Remember email forward. You're old enough to remember. I'm like, scroll down to 0.99

00:16:50.700 the header. Like, look at that. That's me. I wrote that. And they're like, Oh man, I didn't see that.

00:16:56.140 You're like, I knew it sounded like you. And, uh, and so like, then I knew publishers were wrong.

00:17:01.400 So like if, when people are 40, me, my own stuff without knowing it's me, they're wrong. And so, um,

00:17:07.100 I put myself up on the internet for free because I, I didn't know what else to do. And I had to use

00:17:13.120 like geo cities. Right. And, uh, uh, and it blew up. It did like amazing. And, um, then MTV came and

00:17:20.320 filmed me cause they were, this is back when it was weird to meet people off the internet where it was

00:17:23.560 like real creepy. Right. And like goals were like hanging out with me cause of my site. And, uh,

00:17:29.100 and so like they filmed me about that and then it kind of blew up and then publishers came back,

00:17:33.620 like, we want to do a book with you. And I'm like, yeah, all right. Thanks assholes. That was when I was

00:17:38.360 new to entertainment. I didn't know what a bullshit farce it all was. And so then I did, 0.99

00:17:42.600 did my first book helped us air beer and I'll come out in 06 and hit the bestseller list and then

00:17:46.840 kind of took off from there. Yeah. Do you think that these publishers didn't originally connect

00:17:52.400 with you because it was a risk to take on what you were doing or, or you didn't have any sort of

00:17:58.600 notoriety or weren't known? Like what was it that they were rejecting the ones that did, I guess the

00:18:04.240 one that didn't ignore you. Right. There's a couple of things. Um, so the, the obvious thing is

00:18:10.300 if you work in public, everyone who works in book publishing, uh, wanted to be a writer and failed.

00:18:17.040 And so like all they know how to do is replicate what other people are already doing. They can't

00:18:24.040 see anything new, right? Because by definition, if they could, they would go write it. They would

00:18:28.480 have done it. Exactly. Right. And so you have people picking winners who don't know what winners

00:18:34.640 are except in the past. You know what I mean? That's why every great writer has a million

00:18:38.600 rejection stories. Harry fucking Potter, for Christ's sake, JK Rowling was rejected from like 27 0.97

00:18:43.380 publishers. Right. Right. She had to go back to Scholastic like four times before they finally took 1.00

00:18:48.000 her. And so like, like that's the comical thing about this. And that was back before, you know,

00:18:53.180 like there were gatekeepers. Now there's none. It's different. Right. But the other thing I didn't

00:18:57.700 understand at the time, which was a big thing is publishing is dominated by women. I mean, 0.94

00:19:03.140 for better or worse, it's just like, it's like 80, I think it was 70 ish percent. Then now it's

00:19:07.300 probably 80 or 90% women. And like my stuff is even though half my fans are women, the type of women 0.95

00:19:13.380 who love my books don't tend to work in book publishing. Right. They tend like those tend to

00:19:17.840 be like, I can imagine that's true. The girls who like my books were the party girls who were out

00:19:22.580 drinking. They're not reading all day. And so like, like no one who likes my books worked in

00:19:28.420 those companies. So they couldn't conceive of anyone liking this because they only like what

00:19:32.800 they, it's why they're really good at doing books for people who go to snobby cocktail parties on the

00:19:37.920 Upper West Side because that's what they do. They're bad at publishing books for the rest of America.

00:19:43.020 Yeah. Which is interesting because obviously you're leaving out a huge portion of people who would be

00:19:47.480 very, very interested in what you have to say. Obviously that's true for you, right? Is this why,

00:19:52.760 is this a big reason why you started to describe media? I know that's been big. In fact, I told you

00:19:57.880 before we hit record that you and I talked years ago, maybe for 15 minutes or so about, uh, writing a

00:20:03.320 book, but is this the, the catalyst for the media company now? It's part of it. Um, uh, it was more,

00:20:11.160 honestly, it was more that like everyone wants to write a book and everyone kept as soon as I'm sure you

00:20:17.240 wrote a book. So I'm sure, you know, first question you get, what's about second question.

00:20:21.640 How do I write my book? You know, like tell me how to, how'd you do it? Right. Everyone wants to do

00:20:25.620 it and no one wants to actually put in the work. And so I was like, long, like long, long story short,

00:20:31.540 this entrepreneurial woman basically like asked me how to write a book without writing it. And I 1.00

00:20:35.740 totally called her out and made fun of her and I gave her all the snobby elitist writer things. 0.97

00:20:39.720 You know, everyone wants to be a star. No one wants to put in the work. And she's like, 0.99

00:20:43.100 if you're an entrepreneur, you would actually help me solve my problem and not lecture me about

00:20:47.100 hard work. And I was like, Oh, so then I like, I kind of like thought, okay, how do you get a book

00:20:52.300 out of someone's head without ghostwriting? Where you just write a book and then they pay you to put

00:20:56.820 their name on it. It's gotta be all their ideas, their words, their voice. I was like, Oh man,

00:21:00.940 scribes have been doing this for 2000 years. Like, you know, Plato wrote down everything Socrates said.

00:21:05.180 And so I kind of came up with a process. We tested it. It worked amazing for her book. And then she

00:21:10.840 started referring people and it kind of just took off, man. There's a huge demand for this.

00:21:15.340 And I'll tell you what I've seen even now we're five years in and we, we mainly worked on

00:21:20.000 entrepreneurial or sort of business books or personal development or people like own businesses

00:21:25.560 like, cause you know, they can pay the most money. So we started at the high end, but what we've

00:21:30.260 noticed, man, the big thing I'm working on now, I think the bigger market is for, I want to say

00:21:36.180 memoir, but that's not really right. Cause people think memoir and they think, Oh, I'm just going to

00:21:40.640 brag about myself or the, or you think it's arrogant or I haven't done anything. I think

00:21:45.840 both of those are bullshit. Cause no one wants to, you're right. No one wants to read about a 1.00

00:21:48.920 braggy, like Jack Welch, Jackass memoir. He just talks about himself all the time. Oh, I did this,

00:21:53.840 this deal. It's like, no one cares, dude, but everyone wants to tell their story and everyone

00:21:58.840 wants to speak their truth. And as much media as there is in the world right now, it's still very rare

00:22:04.380 to find anyone who actually speaks their truth, honestly. And so that's like, we've come up with

00:22:10.660 a whole workshop where we kind of help people tell their story and speak their truth in a really

00:22:15.340 direct, honest way that any normal person can do. Um, we just like, we haven't really even launched

00:22:20.920 it yet. It's still in beta. I think that's going to be huge, man. That's the thing that like,

00:22:24.920 we're opening up to that as a world. That's the thing I'm most excited about right now with the

00:22:30.000 company. Do you think, I agree with you when it comes to truth that everybody wants to talk about

00:22:35.960 their realistic version of, of reality, right? What they see and how they see the world and, and not,

00:22:43.280 uh, you know, not, not filtered through the, what, what it should be, right? What everybody tells you

00:22:49.440 what it should be. And if it's PC and all this kind of stuff, it seems to me that a lot of people

00:22:54.820 are afraid of that because of the risk of being, you know, canceled or called out or ridiculed,

00:23:00.000 or mocked, like how does somebody overcome that? Because obviously you're a polarizing figure and

00:23:04.940 that's something that you've managed to do very well in spite of criticism, uh, from a lot of

00:23:09.580 different sources. Yeah. So, um, I'll, I'll just tell you people who are, uh, it's not about opinion,

00:23:17.060 right? So like, you're right. If you're like, if you want to talk about Trump or you want to talk

00:23:21.140 about Bernie Sanders or whatever, then it's like, there's the other, the anti tribe of that tribe you

00:23:26.120 like that hates you or whatever. That's that silences some people, but that's a pin. No

00:23:31.820 one's truth is I'm for Bernie Sanders or I'm against Bernie Sanders. That's no one's personal

00:23:36.660 truth. That's just a tribe you're affiliated with. I'm talking about like, what are the things you

00:23:43.180 really honestly think and feel and believe about your life that you want to talk about? Trump is not

00:23:49.940 anyone's life, but Trump, right? Like, so that's not, no one's personal Trump is unless, uh, you know,

00:23:55.780 Trump did something specifically to you. Your truth does not involve him. It doesn't involve him.

00:24:00.900 Right. Exactly. And so like, um, uh, what we really more work on is like, what's your personal truth,

00:24:08.420 but people are extremely afraid of that. And it's less cancel culture. It's more judgment. And so like,

00:24:13.760 which is cancel culture is a form of judgment, no doubt, but it's like kind of broad judgment of

00:24:19.840 people. You don't know what most people are afraid of. What's my family going to think? What are my

00:24:23.640 friends going to think? Um, you know, what if I'm wrong? All that kind of shit, man, people are

00:24:30.060 absolutely just wrapped up afraid of that. And I get it, man, because everyone's living in such a deep 1.00

00:24:37.520 fear of, of judgment. I'll tell you, man, the way I dealt with it is, uh, the way I deal continue to

00:24:44.620 deal with it is I first, I do my work, right? When I was young, I was like, fuck those people. 1.00

00:24:50.000 I don't care what they think. They're irrelevant. That works well. If you're going to be a gadfly 1.00

00:24:54.800 in media, which I was right. If you're going to play that role, like the Joker role or whatever it

00:24:59.800 is, and it worked well, but emotionally for a person, it doesn't really work well. Um,

00:25:06.800 it kind of depends how you do it, but I'll tell you individually, like if you're not a public figure,

00:25:11.640 um, and the way that you deal with it, the way I deal with it is I understand that everything,

00:25:19.240 everyone else thinks about me is not actually about me. It's about them. They are projecting

00:25:25.660 all of their own stuff onto me. Now I'm saying again, assuming like, you know, if I robbed somebody,

00:25:32.600 then they're not projecting what they think on me, right? That really happened. Right. But,

00:25:37.580 but like, you know, if some, I say something to someone and they're like, you know, what you said

00:25:44.720 was mean. And I'm like, hold on a minute. Like, well, I, are you sure it was mean or are you taking

00:25:50.660 it that way? Right. And obviously we negotiate reality between two people, but in my experience,

00:25:56.380 the vast majority of people don't see you as you are. They see you as if they are.

00:26:03.060 Hmm. Yeah. That makes sense. I actually like this approach better than that whole zero F's

00:26:09.120 mentality. You know, you hear that a lot on social media and everywhere else. Like I don't care about

00:26:12.860 anything. It's like anything, like there's nothing and nobody's opinion that you care about. And

00:26:18.360 usually when you have to tell people something, it's usually because you're trying to convince

00:26:21.920 yourself of something that isn't necessarily true. Right. So we're trying to convince yourself,

00:26:27.160 right? That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's funny. Uh, I want to go back to,

00:26:32.980 a term that you use that, that I actually don't like you. You said my truth. Uh, I will, I will say

00:26:39.200 that I like how you described it because you're not saying it as absolute truth, which I think some

00:26:44.760 people conflate the two terms. This is objective truth versus this is just the reality, my perception

00:26:51.900 of a series of events. Oh, dude, those are two totally different things. Uh, I use anyone who thinks

00:26:58.660 that they know objective truth is about to, uh, scam you or steal from you. Good point. No, seriously.

00:27:07.320 Like there's anyone who's that foolish and that myopic, you can only be like a Marxist or a murderer. 0.98

00:27:16.400 Well, I think this, uh, it's, it's kind of funny you say that because I think this plays out quite 0.97

00:27:22.840 often in politics from politicians who want to steal from you and, uh, and from those who get

00:27:30.520 wrapped up, overly wrapped up in politics, believing that their side is objectively right. Always a

00:27:36.840 hundred percent of the time. Oh, of course. I mean, that's what politics is. It's just tribal warfare

00:27:41.980 is all. I mean, come on. Like how can you watch the last three years in America? If it took you that

00:27:47.560 long to figure out, okay, fine. But like, how can you live in America the last three years and not

00:27:52.180 realize politics is literally nothing, but tribal warfare that's made to look fancy and appropriate.

00:27:58.000 That's it. It's all it is. Right. Yeah. And I, and I think it's okay in a healthy quantity,

00:28:02.860 as long as you realize it for what it is, right. And you take it for what it is and you don't get

00:28:07.400 overly wrapped up in it. And you still focus on the things that actually pertain to your life,

00:28:12.680 not some random information that will never actually apply to you. Yeah. I don't know what

00:28:20.020 quantity useless tribal warfare is, is important though. I mean, like I, I pay attention to none of

00:28:25.660 it, man. Like it, like, or as little as I can get away with, like, I don't even know who's running

00:28:32.440 for the democratic primary. I don't care. Like, right. It doesn't matter. It literally doesn't

00:28:37.680 matter. It's a bunch of apes jockeying for status, the position on a status hierarchy 0.96

00:28:42.480 that I'm not on. Do you think that, well, you know, I don't know if you're, it's not that you're

00:28:48.600 not on it. Uh, I think we're all in it. Whether we realize it or not, if you choose to be in it,

00:28:55.400 you're in it. I don't, let me say this. You're impacted by it. Would you agree with that?

00:28:59.660 Um, I mean, I'd be foolish to say there's no way I'm impacted by it. Of course, like I live in the

00:29:10.160 country, but, uh, uh, so like the, of course there's ways for it to impact me. I think it's

00:29:15.920 far less impactful than most people think. Yeah. There's some people who would screw up a bunch

00:29:20.420 more stuff and blah, blah, blah. I'm sure. Okay. All that's true. Like, uh, so I'm not going to be

00:29:24.580 like, no, I'm not, I don't live on an Island by myself. Absolutely not. I live in America. I pay

00:29:28.580 taxes. Like, of course I'm impacted by it. I just, I don't think the president is really all that

00:29:35.780 impactful, um, to most people's day-to-day lives. I think the, I think the media does a good job

00:29:42.860 getting people spun up about it when it's not nearly as pertinent or relevant as they would

00:29:48.800 make it out to be. But if you understand the motive, that's a business model. That's what I'm

00:29:53.680 saying. Like, you know, and sometimes business models align, like if, uh, you know, a clothing

00:29:58.200 company, for example, or a car manufacturer wants to hype up their car and it aligns with the fact

00:30:02.780 that I need a vehicle, then okay. As long as I understand that motive, that it's their job to

00:30:07.880 paint their vehicle in the best light possible. And I take that into consideration, I can make

00:30:12.100 an effective purchase. Yeah. I mean, whatever. Like I get it. The only, the older I get, the more

00:30:23.860 emotional work I do, the more I check out of consumerist culture, like all of it. And the more

00:30:30.220 I focus on the people I love and care about and the work I do that matters to them.

00:30:36.340 Um, I, I think that's a, a great place to, uh, place your time and emphasis and energy

00:30:42.760 because that stuff is finite and we only have so much of it. So I think it's better spent there

00:30:47.040 for sure. Time's the only thing we can't replace, right? That's right. Hey, so when it comes to

00:30:52.400 therapy, you know, you talked about doing this for a long time and you've done a lot of different

00:30:55.980 modes and, and practices of therapy. What have you found to be the most useful for yourself?

00:31:01.800 So for me, um, uh, talk therapy was really good, but, uh, plant medicine therapy has just blown the

00:31:10.220 lid off for me, man. Like, so I started with MDMA therapy, uh, about a year and a half ago and I did,

00:31:17.500 uh, like six or seven sessions of that. And it was, man, it was just game changing for me in so many

00:31:24.880 ways. And, uh, like I, I had never felt love that deep. I had never felt safety that deep. I had all

00:31:31.500 kinds of stuff that I had buried, came up, dealt with it. I was able to let it go. It was so amazing.

00:31:38.480 Um, and then I also have done a few sessions of psilocybin therapy, like mushrooms, which has been

00:31:44.320 amazing. Uh, it's, oh man, it's, it's literally rewired my brain in certain ways. And like a lot of

00:31:51.580 negative patterns I was able to let go of really easily because it just made that easier. Um, and then

00:31:59.060 recently I moved up to or onto LSD therapy, which has been like pretty amazing too. Um, in a very

00:32:07.580 different way, like LSD just tears the facade off of reality and you see real clearly everything is

00:32:15.200 like, Oh wow. And yourself starting with yourself, but then, uh, everything else too. And it's, it's

00:32:21.360 pretty shocking, man. It's pretty breathtaking, but those modalities have, I probably done more work

00:32:26.700 over the last 18 months. I've made more progress over the last 18 months because, um, I, I, I

00:32:32.880 introduced those modalities to my, my therapeutic practice. And it's just been, I mean, I don't want

00:32:40.140 to say I'm a different person, but I am like, I'm the best version of myself I've ever been. And I keep

00:32:45.780 getting better. Man, let me hit the pause button on the conversation real quick. Uh, you've likely heard

00:32:51.480 about the iron council, uh, by now, uh, before, but, uh, what I wanted to share with you today is

00:32:56.560 something that we are working on starting next week. We call it the 12 week battle plan. And it's

00:33:01.960 a system that we've developed over the past five years to help you accomplish more in a 90 day span

00:33:07.300 than you potentially have in an entire year. Uh, in fact, when I wrote my book sovereignty, I completed

00:33:13.600 it using the battle planning cycle, uh, in the same system that the members of the iron council are

00:33:18.460 currently using. Obviously life has taken a very strange turn for most of you in 2020. Uh, but using

00:33:25.200 the battle plan and the accountability found inside of the iron council will help ensure that you get

00:33:30.060 back out ahead of things, uh, and make the most of a very, uh, very strange situation. We'll call it,

00:33:37.060 uh, if you want to learn more and band with us, head to order a man.com slash iron council to learn

00:33:42.080 more and to lock in your spot at the table again, order a man.com slash iron council. You can do that

00:33:47.760 after the show for now. I'll finish things up with Tucker. How do you, how do you measure that,

00:33:53.500 that progress? Like, what is it that you're quantifying when you say, man, I've made more

00:33:57.080 progress over the past year than I ever have. Like, what does that actually look like?

00:34:00.640 So for me, I think about how well am I connecting with my kids emotionally? Right. So like little

00:34:06.720 things like, um, it used to be my, I've got little kids. They're like five, three and eight months.

00:34:12.880 Right. So they lie, but only about like treats or things like they're not very manipulative yet.

00:34:18.180 Right. Or, or if they are manipulative, it's really transparent. I'm going to say they're

00:34:22.180 actually like super manipulative, but it's not usually like really transparent. It's like they

00:34:27.340 haven't been able to think of model my mind yet, you know? And, and so, um, so like, I'll give you a

00:34:33.800 really good example. So I used to get up early. I, my deal with my wife is when we have, you know,

00:34:38.520 like kids under a year, she breastfeeds and then, uh, they sleep in our bed. They co-sleep 1.00

00:34:44.160 right with her. And so that way I don't have to wake up. Like she deals with the kid all

00:34:48.120 night, but then in the morning I get up with the kids and she can sleep in and I kind of

00:34:53.000 do breakfast and whatever, which is like a perfect deal. She gets to sleep in. I don't

00:34:56.200 have to wake up at night. And so I'm a big fan of divisional labor, man. And so, uh, so

00:35:00.860 anyway, so she, um, uh, I noticed this, like after my second MDMA session, my kid, we

00:35:08.060 always hang out together in the living room, either watch TV or do something. They were

00:35:12.100 all climbing on top of me and sitting on me. Like, whereas before they, like they weren't

00:35:18.020 scared of me or anything, but they, I don't know. They, they just weren't like drawn to

00:35:22.700 me physically on top of me. Now it's almost a little annoying, man. Like I can't sit anywhere

00:35:29.060 without them climbing all over me, which half of me loves. Cause they're like little monkeys

00:35:33.160 and I love playing with them. The other half is like, okay, at some point you've got to

00:35:36.920 play with something else in our huge house. Like it can't all only just be me, but it's

00:35:41.880 like, uh, like that's just one of those small things, right. Or the way my wife and I interact, 0.94

00:35:46.640 the way we have sex, like it's always been great physically, but there's an emotional

00:35:51.240 element that's, we already had one, but it's just, there's depths of that, that like never

00:35:56.800 had before the way my company has grown, man. So much of what's happened here. I'm not

00:36:03.340 the CEO, but so much of the growth here. Like it's both me, me coaching certain people

00:36:11.220 and helping them being, being in a space to do that. But then also me getting out of the

00:36:15.660 way, man. Like the more medicine work you do, the more you kind of separate from your

00:36:20.180 ego and drop all the bullshit. And it's like, I didn't realize how many incredibly talented 0.98

00:36:25.620 people I had and how little I had to do for this company to actually grow faster. You know,

00:36:30.920 like those sorts of things, um, all real direct impacts in my life. Pretty much all

00:36:36.560 of them, uh, do in part to medicine doesn't do the work for you, man. The plant medicine,

00:36:41.780 it just opens up a space. It's a tool like, uh, uh, that opens up a space. Then you got

00:36:47.120 to kind of make realizations about yourself and apply them to your life. And they're hard

00:36:51.380 realizations, dude. And it brings up hard emotions. So like people have this, some people

00:36:55.560 have this idea in their head. It's like, Oh yeah, it'll be like doing an LSD at a concert.

00:36:58.600 It's like, no, it's not like that at all. It's hellish at times. Like one, I did one,

00:37:06.180 uh, session where I combined LSD and MDMA, which is a really good combination. And it

00:37:11.180 was seriously like doing two or three years of therapy in one day, but that's not like,

00:37:16.240 that's not easy, man. That's exhausting. Like that is like, it's, I felt the next day,

00:37:20.760 like I'd been in a fight. It was terrible, but I felt amazed. Like as I integrated, like I felt

00:37:26.480 incredible, you know, so it's been a big change, man. Yeah. I imagine I'm not familiar with, I mean,

00:37:32.800 I'm familiar with it, but not personally familiar. I haven't had any experiences that way. Um,

00:37:37.600 it seems to me from the outside looking in with limited information that it tears down

00:37:42.220 self-imposed and maybe even societally imposed barriers and limitations that we're not aware of.

00:37:48.720 Yes. That's a big, big part of it. So Terrence McKenna, who's probably one of the best thinkers

00:37:54.660 about psychedelics wrote about that all the time. That's huge. The, that, I don't know if that's

00:38:00.000 the biggest thing. The biggest thing for me was, man, I didn't realize how much trauma I had stored

00:38:04.680 in my body, how much unfelt feelings I had and how, how they drove the whole ship for me. And, and,

00:38:12.240 and a psychedelics and plant medicines opened a space where they could come up and I could feel them

00:38:16.720 and then let them go. That was really important. Yeah. LSD, especially though, is where it tears

00:38:21.940 down. It's like, Oh, you think this is reality? Wrong. Like, you know, like you think this wrong,

00:38:26.800 like it, it kind of showed, it doesn't even show you reality necessarily. It just breaks down what

00:38:31.740 you think is actually true, but you know, it's like, Oh man, I knew that a lot of it's stuff you

00:38:37.120 actually already know, or it's like, it doesn't necessarily give you answers. It just shows you

00:38:40.300 different angles on things. A lot of people have used LSD for creative work. I get it now,

00:38:45.000 man, because it really strips away a definite that one of the first things I saw on LSD and I knew

00:38:51.360 this, I knew this intellectually, but it was a different experience was how essentially we create

00:38:59.600 our own reality. Right. Not saying that there isn't some objective reality. I mean, we're like,

00:39:04.980 it's not like you're a figment of my imagination or vice versa, but that like pretty much like we use

00:39:11.760 words and concepts and ideas and stories to create our reality. And it was showed it to me in a way I

00:39:17.620 just had never seen or thought about like in a depth of it. And I was like, Oh my God, man. Like

00:39:24.100 I'm, I totally right. I had been locked in by a bunch of calcified ideas of other people that just

00:39:30.340 weren't true. Hmm. Interesting. Is this a, when, when you do these therapy sessions, are they done under

00:39:37.340 like medical supervision or do you work with somebody? Like, how does this, how does this

00:39:40.720 actually work? Yeah. So I use different facilitators for different medicines because

00:39:44.740 you have different people that are like kind of experts, but basically, I mean, look, this stuff's

00:39:48.520 all illegal right now. Right. So I'm breaking the law. Right. MDMA is scheduled to be legalized in

00:39:55.240 2021 or 2022. I think it's in stage three clinical trials. It's close. And then psilocybin is right

00:40:00.600 behind it. And it's already gotten breakthrough, um, treatment designation from the FDA. So they're

00:40:06.520 like, um, it's on the path to be legalized. Right. I'm just impatient. So I was like, fuck it,

00:40:10.740 I'm going to go do it myself. Um, but there are a lot of underground facilitate, not a lot. There are 0.98

00:40:15.540 a number of underground facilitators who've been the kind of pioneers who've been doing this for

00:40:20.860 decades, you know, and walking people through it. I, there's a whole world I had no idea about

00:40:25.200 recreational people doing stuff. I'm thinking like, you know, it's not like hippies doing their

00:40:31.280 thing. Yeah. I get it. I get it. It's none of that, man. Like I've never still never done any

00:40:36.180 of this recreationally ever. I can't, I don't know how people do this stuff recreationally,

00:40:40.640 man. It like, cause it, it is mind melting. Like I, like one of my facilitators has this massive house

00:40:47.420 or a massive, a massive kind of land that they live on in their house there. It's like, I go out

00:40:53.720 there and it's like a huge, and I mean like even going outside on one of these sessions a little

00:40:59.340 bit is mind bending to me. I have no idea how people do this and concerts or function on it,

00:41:06.440 but no, I have facilitators I work with and they're very experienced. Some have medical

00:41:09.940 backgrounds, some don't, um, but they all really know what they're doing and they help me, you know,

00:41:15.000 integration before and after and going into the medicine, working with it, moving the energy,

00:41:20.780 whatever it is they do, all that stuff. Yeah.

00:41:22.400 Yeah. I guess that's good. Cause you know, I think about it again, from the outside looking

00:41:27.220 in and not a whole lot of perspective on this is, you know, playing with a loaded gun, right? If

00:41:31.200 it's that powerful to, to impact positive change in you, it also means just, just as powerful to

00:41:36.700 impact negative and destructive change in you as well. Yeah. I would not recommend just being like,

00:41:42.180 Oh, I heard Tucker on a podcast. I'm gonna go buy LSD from a drug dealer and just see what it's

00:41:46.200 like. I would highly recommend you don't do that.

00:41:48.480 I, it's sad that you need to say that, but you know, there's a lot of people who, you know,

00:41:53.120 take what you might say or I might say, or any number of guests that we might have on and think,

00:41:57.220 Oh, well, because this guy did it, I guess I'll go do it. It's like, well, think about what are

00:42:01.720 you saying? Think about the context and the nuance and then be smart.

00:42:05.960 Just be smart. And it's sad that you need to say that, but man, we're in a situation. It seems

00:42:13.580 like where man, not a lot of people are anymore. You know, I read something I was, I was preparing

00:42:19.720 for our conversation and, and I read something, I can't remember exactly where I came across it,

00:42:23.860 but, uh, you had talked about maybe in an interview that, that you kind of resented your,

00:42:29.000 your past reputation and, uh, getting into this whole, you know, like red pill slash incel

00:42:36.360 manosphere movement. Can you, can you talk me through that a little bit and your thoughts about

00:42:41.240 those types of movements and causes? Yeah. So, um, I don't know. I'm not sure exactly what you read.

00:42:48.820 My guess is like, I don't like being associated with things and ideas that aren't mine. Right.

00:42:54.820 So like incels, not me, red pills, not me, manosphere is not me. Like those are other people's

00:43:02.560 things and ideas and tribes. And I don't really care. Like they can have their own thing,

00:43:07.080 whatever. Right. It has nothing to do with me. And so it's a trick that the media plays. I'm sure,

00:43:12.540 you know, is like, they'll take, if it's someone that they're talking about, whether they want to

00:43:18.880 raise or lower their status, they'll associate them with something that's seen as positive or

00:43:24.500 negative. Right. So like, like some media person who doesn't like me, they'll be like, you know,

00:43:29.720 Tucker Max, who commonly associated with manosphere movement or whatever, whatever is like in or out

00:43:35.540 at the moment. Right. And I just always hate being associated with things. I don't like being

00:43:39.820 associated with things that aren't mine. Like I'll carry my baggage. I'm not carrying anyone else's.

00:43:45.120 Is the problem that you don't have. I like that perspective. I'm wondering if the reason you do it is

00:43:50.320 because you don't have control over the narrative and there's so much outside of your control that

00:43:57.480 you might get lumped into something that is not representative of you or your thought process.

00:44:02.100 Oh, of course. That's a hundred percent. Why that's why that's the reason that's the whole thing.

00:44:08.100 Yeah, that makes sense. Um, I was wondering if there was something that you saw inside of those

00:44:13.060 movements, because I know there's a lot of guys listening that, uh, you know, they, and, and I agree

00:44:17.560 in that. I don't want to be associated with that either. I'm just wondering if there's something

00:44:20.920 inside of those movements that, uh, is, is a turnoff for you is, or something that you see

00:44:25.860 is not being healthy for men. Yeah. So it, it depends on the movement and it depends on the

00:44:31.040 part of the movement, right? I don't think there's a way to talk about the red pill movement consistently,

00:44:35.300 right? Sure. Yeah. Almost any idea you would say that, or if I said, well, I don't like X about

00:44:40.740 the red pill movement. I think you could plausibly say, hold on. I'm not sure that's part of it.

00:44:44.020 Right. Right. Um, right. Maybe incels are a little more tightly defined, but I mean,

00:44:48.120 do we really have to talk about why I'm not a fan of dudes who are in the idea of involuntary

00:44:55.120 celibacy? You've already told your own story. That's just nonsense, right? Right. Sure. No

00:44:59.980 doubt. I mean, look, bless your heart, man, but you've told yourself this story and this is who

00:45:04.080 you're going to be. So like you paid, like, don't get mad if you wrecked your car when you drove into a

00:45:08.700 pole on purpose. Right. Yeah. And then, um, but look, if there is a thread in the manosphere

00:45:15.200 movement that I always, um, chafed against or didn't like, it seemed like there was a deep thread

00:45:23.400 of resentment and anger towards women. Right. And, and like not all dudes in the, in that movement and

00:45:30.840 not all people, I'm not whatever, but it seemed like, um, there were especially like some of the

00:45:36.760 bigger voices, like they hate women and everything they talk about is about just so toxic and

00:45:45.720 destructive, man. And it's like, oh, and I see these younger guys like, oh, well this person has

00:45:52.800 an audience and he says that I should do this. I'm going to, I'm like, that person's a sociopath 0.84

00:45:57.140 and he hates himself. Following him maybe isn't the right path, but if you want to try, go try.

00:46:03.520 Right. I mean, like you'll figure it out, man, you'll end up lonely and sad and like, okay, maybe

00:46:08.440 I need to try something else. Right. And so like, like that, that was always the thread that like,

00:46:14.760 I mean, there's positive threads of it too, but I just, it just always like, cause what annoyed me

00:46:23.020 about being associated with that is like, uh, I'm like everything I ever did in my books and my life

00:46:29.440 was about getting women to like me. So they would sleep with me, which is its own issue. And you can 0.96

00:46:34.480 treat that. And I get it. Like, I know that I know the critiques of that better than anybody. Right.

00:46:39.160 But like, you've heard them all. I'm sure. Right. Of course. And I know what the real ones are. Like I

00:46:43.440 get what's wrong with that mindset very well. It's part of what I've had to, to kind of deal with,

00:46:48.320 but that's not hating women. That's about like, I want this, I'm going to go have fun. And there was a

00:46:54.740 positive sort of side to it, or at least a joyous side where so much of the red pill stuff was just

00:47:01.940 so toxically negative and hateful. And I'm like, this is, I just didn't want to be associated with

00:47:07.440 it. That's really it. Yeah. No, I wanted to talk about it because it was something that I saw and

00:47:12.500 got brought up and it's actually something that we'd deal with as well, you know, is, is we can get

00:47:16.340 lumped into that, what I'm doing here into that category pretty quickly. And I agree. I think the

00:47:21.520 underlying thread of a lot of these movements is victimhood, right? It's that we, we are, we are

00:47:26.280 victims. And so therefore we need to fight back or we need to rebel or, or it almost in a way moves

00:47:32.900 towards becoming the masculine version of third wave feminism. It a hundred percent is, it's not 1.00

00:47:39.760 almost, it is exactly what it is. Oh yeah. No, a hundred percent. Oh no. I like, I've made that point

00:47:46.160 and this was a few years ago or some point like that. And I mean, dude, all the manosphere, uh,

00:47:52.040 pansies got their panties in a wad and freaked out. And I'm like, all right, well then that your

00:47:57.020 reaction should tell you, uh, that it's exactly right. It is. We're victims. The other side is

00:48:02.440 the enemy. We're right about everything. They're wrong about everything. I'm like, all right, there

00:48:07.300 you go. Like, what do you want? You know? Yeah. I think this comes back down to what you were

00:48:11.860 talking about earlier with the, with the tribalism and it's us versus them when, when in all reality,

00:48:17.020 you know, I look at a man's relationship, men's relationship in general with women is

00:48:21.580 that of cooperation, not necessarily competition, right? Like we need to cooperate, cooperate with

00:48:28.300 women. Women need to cooperate with us, whether it's raising a family or running an organization or 1.00

00:48:33.560 just operating like functional human beings in society. We need to cooperate and work together to

00:48:39.000 make things happen. A hundred percent. There's enough hardship on, on earth. We don't need to

00:48:44.000 be fighting men and women don't need to be fighting. Like we can have our, our interests were aligned for

00:48:48.480 thousands of years. They can still be aligned if we want. It's a choice. Like, yeah, yeah. Well,

00:48:56.060 what's next for you, man? What's, uh, obviously you've got scribe and I imagine you have interest in

00:49:00.680 other businesses as well, but what are some, uh, some plans that you have moving, moving into the

00:49:06.780 future? So honestly, the big thing is what I talked about earlier is, is the memoir workshop. We call

00:49:11.640 it one last book. Cause the idea is if you were to write one last book, what would you say? And

00:49:17.280 kind of as a prompt to get people to really think, okay, I got to put my whole truth in here. Um,

00:49:23.040 and that's, that's this whole year for me is really focused on that. I feel like we haven't hit the peak

00:49:30.120 of the tribalism phase. I think it's going to peak in like, probably with a general election in

00:49:35.020 November. Like that'll be the way. And then it's going to get interesting. Hopefully it'll be so

00:49:39.420 awful that everyone with a brain is like, okay, that's terrible. Let's never do that again and go

00:49:45.320 the other way. And I think people are going to really start to, you talked about localism.

00:49:49.400 I'm a big fan of that. I'm, I think it's really that that movement is coming. And I also think a

00:49:54.820 movement of a way from I'm a woman and man are bad, or I'm a Democrat and Republicans are bad. And

00:50:01.240 who am I? Why am I angry? Why am I sad? Cause it probably has nothing to do with a political

00:50:08.560 party or a gender. It probably has a lot to do with my own life and how I was raised, what I got,

00:50:14.620 what I didn't get, how I'm acting, what my life is like. And it's not the only way to take

00:50:20.960 responsibility and accountability for your life. But I think a really good place for a lot of people to

00:50:25.240 start is by actually writing out, thinking about and uncovering what their truths are and what their

00:50:31.600 life has been and writing that out so they can see, okay, this is who I actually am. And then that's a

00:50:38.280 good place for a lot of people, not everyone, but a lot of people to start. I agree with that. I,

00:50:43.380 you know, when I, when I wrote my book, which was a couple of years ago, last month, it was two years

00:50:49.260 ago. Uh, I, I thought I had a pretty good idea of like the experiences I had and what they

00:50:55.880 culminated into and what I believed. And that book writing process was actually very therapeutic for

00:51:02.960 me because I was able to crystallize some thoughts and then, and, and reevaluate some thoughts as well.

00:51:08.900 Like I actually don't know if I believe that, or where did I learn that? Cause I don't think that's

00:51:13.400 serving me and, and going through the process myself was very, very, uh, powerful to help me

00:51:19.780 shore up what it is I was all about and what I wanted to create. It was a good process for me.

00:51:24.920 There's very, I actually like writing better than just therapy because it's so easy to talk yourself

00:51:32.440 in circles in therapy. But if you're sitting down and willing to be honest with yourself,

00:51:37.200 writing about your life, especially with a few key prompts and a few key questions,

00:51:42.660 you'll unlock a lot more than you will in therapy, especially therapy alone.

00:51:48.180 That's a good, that's a good, that's a good, uh, a good thought too, is that those, those prompts,

00:51:52.820 right? I can't tell you, even when it comes to like journaling, for example, how many guys will

00:51:56.300 say, well, I don't know how to journal. I'm like, I don't know, just write things, you know,

00:51:59.620 but having those prompts is actually really just is powerful. And no, it helps you do it in the right

00:52:04.080 way. No, it is dude. I mean, I'll tell you, it's so funny. We have a, the, the workshop is three days

00:52:10.260 for, um, for one last book. And I'm not joking when I tell you it might be an hour and a half,

00:52:17.200 two hours max spread over three days of actual writing instruction, because it's so simple.

00:52:23.560 Like I'll, I'll tell you that the literally the algorithm we use for, for writing your,

00:52:27.720 your one last book, it's three questions. What happened? How did you feel about it? What did

00:52:34.620 you do or learn as a result? And just repeat it over and over again, over and over and over.

00:52:40.900 Now the devil of this is in the details because like the reason it's three days is because once

00:52:47.600 you start asking deeper questions about your life, why you're writing the book, what you're

00:52:52.560 hoping to get out of it, all this emotional, if you're, if you're in the space where you want to

00:52:56.380 do it, right? If you don't want to write the book, then it doesn't make sense. But if you're in that

00:52:59.440 space, then all this emotional stuff comes out. And so we kind of help you navigate through that,

00:53:04.280 right? Understanding what, you know, what's coming up, why is it coming up, how to write

00:53:08.240 about it, all that kind of stuff. But the actual instructions are dead simple. What happened?

00:53:13.680 How did I feel? What did I learn? Yeah. I could see this being like some sort of, I don't know,

00:53:18.780 like an exercise clinic, you know, it's like people go to these clinics. It's like, well, you know,

00:53:23.080 you need to just lift heavy weights, but, but there's some nuance there. Like there's some ways to do it

00:53:29.080 that won't get you hurt. And, uh, I imagine that's what you're filling in there.

00:53:33.160 Basically pretty much. So with, with all due respect to what you're doing, uh, I'm really

00:53:38.980 curious. Do you think with the, the rise of self-publishing and how many people have a desire

00:53:45.520 to write a book and now it's becoming easier and easier to do with self-publishing and your

00:53:49.320 options like yours and Amazon that it, I don't know if cheapens is the right word, but just saturates

00:53:56.040 the, the, the market so much that it becomes ineffective or unimportant.

00:54:00.340 No, that's a scarcity mindset. I actually think it's the other way around. I think, um, I think

00:54:06.300 there is a never ending supply for honest, authentic, meaningful stories. That's all we

00:54:14.360 consume as humans, right? I mean, like it's the information is a tiny bit of it. All the rest

00:54:20.860 is context and story. And I think what we're trying to do is teach people how to really uncover

00:54:27.580 their story and tell their story. Um, uh, because you got to uncover it first. Most people don't

00:54:33.200 know. Like you said, you sat down and write, you realize all this stuff about your life and

00:54:36.780 you seem like a pretty, uh, observant and dialed in and self-aware guy, right? Far more than

00:54:42.440 most people. Well, imagine what most people are like, dude, you know? And so it's like,

00:54:46.700 okay, how do you actually do that? We don't, I mean, I know you know this, but like, think

00:54:51.920 about the most important things, relationships, love, self-awareness, we don't teach any of

00:54:58.260 this in our culture, right? And so like, if we can teach people how to just how to understand

00:55:04.280 their own story and tell it to others, that by itself, I think there's an endless demand. 0.99

00:55:09.700 I know I would much rather read amazingly heartfelt memoirs than watch another stupid zombie show 0.99

00:55:16.740 on Netflix, right? But if there's no good heart, I mean, I've read all the good memoirs. I feel like, 0.99

00:55:22.480 you know, there aren't that many more. Well, what's interesting is everybody's got a story

00:55:27.820 and somebody needs to hear your story because they would be impacted positively by it. And what I hear

00:55:34.900 a lot of guys, whether they say it or not, what they're, what they're telling themselves is learning

00:55:39.900 how to communicate effectively. Isn't really all that important because we know how to do it because

00:55:43.680 we do it every day. It's like, well, no, like the reason that you need to learn how to get good at

00:55:48.940 it is because somebody can be served. And that somebody could be your son or your wife or the

00:55:54.460 little kid who's on your baseball team or a coworker or an employee, like somebody will be impacted

00:56:00.180 positively by you learning how to communicate, whether it's spoken or written word.

00:56:06.640 You just wrote my marketing copy. I was literally just, I was taking notes. I'm not even kidding,

00:56:12.880 man. If you heard a typing sound, that's what that was.

00:56:15.960 That's funny. Well, good, good. Glad I could help. Hey, Tucker, man, I've appreciated this

00:56:21.420 conversation. I was really looking forward to it and actually kind of curious about how this,

00:56:24.940 how this would go down. But I am, I am pleasantly surprised and really enjoyed our conversation

00:56:31.500 together, man.

00:56:32.500 Me too, man. Thank you, brother.

00:56:34.480 Hey, let me ask you a couple additional questions. The first one is what does it mean to be a man?

00:56:39.120 Yeah. Um, that's such a hard question because I, I, I, I don't, I hate all of the, um, tribal 1.00

00:56:52.240 answers. Oh, men, you know, smell like gas. Men do hard work. Men this, men that it's like, 0.96

00:56:57.580 like throw all that shit away. Um, the thing that's always resonated with me, um, is that men 1.00

00:57:06.820 are responsible and accountable, um, for, for safety and protection and provisions. Right.

00:57:16.140 And I don't think I've wordsmith that exactly right. Or thought about it deep enough, but

00:57:20.820 like, because look, the, the hard biological reality is that, uh, women are the basis of 1.00

00:57:29.260 biology, right? Like, like beings, the gender that reproduces is the basis of biology. And the 0.98

00:57:36.220 only reason sex exists is because essentially parasitic competition, right? So we had to, 0.97

00:57:43.420 uh, uh, men had to be created. I don't mean human men, I mean males and females in a, in a biologic

00:57:50.220 sense because, um, just women reproducing, right? Like, uh, you know, like, uh, non-sexual reproduction,

00:57:57.560 which is salamanders. I mean, it's pretty, all cells do, um, is, uh, is eventually gets

00:58:03.300 destroyed by parasitic competition. Right. And so if you understand that, then you understand like

00:58:08.600 women are kind of the center biologically. And our job is, we got to provide sperm of course, 1.00

00:58:15.140 but like our, our purpose is to then provide everything around that reproduction, right?

00:58:22.940 Safety is number one, physical safety. We live in a world now where it's not as paramount, but it's

00:58:28.180 still more real than you think. Most people, physical safety, emotional safety, all of that

00:58:34.100 sort of stuff. And like, you know, environmental safety, shelter, food, all these that's safety,

00:58:40.320 right? We, you know, we provide that the, the, the mother provides life and sustenance to life. 1.00

00:58:48.480 Right. And again, I'm not speaking like women have to stay home. I'm talking about on a, on a high

00:58:53.440 level metaphorical basis. So to me, what I have to do, you know what, what it boils down to, I got

00:59:00.660 to earn my place. Every man has got to earn his place. And what manhood means to me is earning your

00:59:06.840 place. Women don't have, and I don't mean this as an insult. You don't have biologically, you don't 1.00

00:59:12.200 have to earn your place. Like you just have a period and then you can have kids. Of course you have to

00:59:17.660 earn things in life. You're not, there's no welfare line for women. I'm not saying that,

00:59:22.660 but I'm saying that you don't, they, they are the essence of life. We are an addition to it.

00:59:27.760 Right. And so we've got to earn our place. And I don't approach that from a level of insecurity.

00:59:33.140 I, the other way around, I think it's awesome. It's our chance to be a hero. That's the whole

00:59:38.060 hero's journey for us is they're already going to provide life. We get to go be heroes, but we have

00:59:44.100 to earn it. Right. And so I see so many dudes now who are like, are afraid of that. And it's

00:59:49.580 heartbreaking. Cause it's like, that's the whole reason you're here is to go be some level of a

00:59:54.820 hero for someone. I like it, man. It's powerful. I like the way that you frame that. We talk a lot

00:59:59.840 about some of those concepts you talked about, but the way you framed is very interesting. So I

01:00:03.200 appreciate you sharing. All right, man. How do we connect with you? Learn more about scribe or

01:00:07.060 anything else that you have going on? Where do we go? Uh, scribewriting.com is my site.

01:00:11.240 And then I'm all over social media, Tucker max, easy to find right on brother. We'll sync it all

01:00:17.000 up again. I really appreciate you coming on. Um, I'm inspired by your transformation and evolution

01:00:21.280 over the past decade or so that I've been familiar with your work. I think I first came across you,

01:00:25.420 I don't know, probably in some bookstore in an airport or something like that. I'm sure where I

01:00:29.900 saw your, your books first. So, uh, it's cool to be able to talk with you and see how you've

01:00:33.780 changed and transformed your life. I really respect that about you. Thanks, man. Appreciate it.

01:00:38.640 Gentlemen, there you go. My conversation with the one and only Tucker max. I hope you enjoyed that

01:00:43.700 one. And I hope also that you saw a different light or a different side of Tucker than maybe

01:00:47.520 you've seen in the past or that you're familiar with. Uh, we'd love to hear what you think about

01:00:52.120 the show, hit him up on, on the socials, hit me up on the socials. Uh, let me know. Let's continue

01:00:56.960 the conversation there. And that's what this is about. It's about having conversation, uh, with people

01:01:02.000 who are doing great things, people who have interesting stories to share, and then extracting some of

01:01:06.600 their knowledge and wisdom, and then, uh, implementing in our own lives. And that's the

01:01:10.280 most important thing guys is implementation. If we're just listening to the podcast and we're not

01:01:14.480 applying or implementing any of the things that we're learning about, we're wasting time. So make

01:01:18.760 sure that you're applying this stuff and that, uh, it is in fact serving you by putting it into

01:01:23.300 action. So we'll wrap things up today. Uh, we're going to be back again for the, ask me anything

01:01:27.800 tomorrow. Uh, I've got a couple of surprise guests that I'm going to bring on here in the next

01:01:31.560 several weeks, uh, because we need to talk about some of this Corona vault virus fallout

01:01:36.200 and everything else that's going on. So stay tuned for that. Uh, make sure you subscribe to the

01:01:40.360 podcast. If you would also just leave me a rating review. All right. Cause it goes a long way,

01:01:45.400 just a very long way in promoting the visibility of the show and what we're doing and getting this

01:01:49.880 message of reclaiming and restoring masculinity out to the masses, which is exactly where it needs to be.

01:01:54.860 So make sure you subscribe, make sure you share it, leave a rating review and, uh, continue to tune in again.

01:01:59.920 We'll be back tomorrow. And then also Friday for our Friday field notes, let me and Tucker know what

01:02:04.220 you thought about the show and the conversation. And we'll, uh, we'll continue this over on the,

01:02:07.800 uh, the socials, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, wherever you're doing it. All right, guys,

01:02:12.260 we'll be back tomorrow until then go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

01:02:16.780 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

01:02:21.240 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

01:02:29.920 Thank you.

Order of Man - March 24, 2020

Redefining Yourself ｜ TUCKER MAX

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