Order of Man - RICHARD RYAN ｜ Guarding Your Mind in a Digital World

00:00:00.000 Man, we are living in a digital battlefield and most guys, they don't even know they're fighting.

00:00:05.380 The time that we spend on our devices is unreal. And if it's free, remember that you are the

00:00:12.260 product. The algorithms and the machine learning and the AI, they're all engineered to hijack your

00:00:18.120 attention, to make you lose focus and create habits that are addictive. Today, we're talking

00:00:25.720 about auditing your digital life, removing the noise to find the signal and building

00:00:30.120 the discipline to guard your mind in this era of constant, constant distraction. Joining

00:00:37.600 me today is Richard Ryan. He is the author of The Warrior's Garden, built on the principle

00:00:42.240 that it's better, of course, to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war. Again,

00:00:48.100 we discussed digital detox, delayed gratification, holding yourself accountable and reclaiming

00:00:54.280 the smallest locus of control. So you cannot be manipulated as easily by the forces out

00:01:01.160 there competing for all of our attention.

00:01:03.880 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears and boldly chart

00:01:08.720 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time you

00:01:14.300 are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are.

00:01:21.440 This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and done, you can call

00:01:27.080 yourself a man. Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. I am Ryan Michler. I'm your host and

00:01:33.400 the founder, and we have been going strong for 11 years. And that's because you keep showing up,

00:01:38.120 you keep listening, and you keep applying the information. So if you're new here, this is a

00:01:42.780 podcast dedicated to all things manly. Whether it's leading your family, growing your business,

00:01:47.920 getting in shape, getting out of financial catastrophe, overcoming job loss or divorce,

00:01:54.660 whatever you're dealing with as a man, we tackle it, we cover it. We've been doing it for over a

00:01:58.540 decade now, which is so wild to say. I've got a really good podcast for you today. Very, very

00:02:03.340 important and timely in a world that is continually distracting us through our digital devices and

00:02:08.500 technology as wonderful as technology can be. Before I get into it, just want to mention my friends

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00:02:32.100 making and how many people I bump into at the airport or just walking around in town that I see

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00:02:55.700 All right, guys, let me introduce you to my guest. His name is Richard Ryan. He's the author of

00:03:00.220 The Warrior's Garden. It's a book revolved around the idea that it's, again, better to be a warrior in a

00:03:07.640 garden than a gardener in a war. He talks about balance and strength and disciplined restraint,

00:03:13.180 especially as it relates to the digital world. His work explores how men can cultivate capability

00:03:20.500 and resilience and one of my favorite words, sovereignty in this world that is increasingly

00:03:25.760 influenced by distraction and institutional pressure, drift in culture. He challenges readers

00:03:33.360 to think critically, to build their fitness, to take ownership of their habits, not be manipulated

00:03:39.080 by algorithms or sensationalism. But through his writing and speaking, he addresses the warfare of

00:03:44.860 digital technology, the importance of delayed gratification, the necessity of guarding your mind

00:03:51.820 against big tech and information overload. And I can certainly attest to that. Oh my goodness.

00:03:57.100 But he advocates for auditing your inputs, removing noise from your life, strengthening your

00:04:01.840 accountability, focusing on what is in your control. And his message is very clear. Develop the discipline

00:04:07.540 and competence of a warrior, not necessarily for chaos, but so you can have a meaningful purpose-driven

00:04:14.980 life. Richard, what's up, man? So good to have you on the podcast. We're going to talk about some

00:04:20.060 important issues that I think a lot of men don't actually really consider. Well, I appreciate you having

00:04:25.600 me. Yeah, man. It's interesting in the digital realm, which is kind of what we're going to address

00:04:30.240 today, how often we're on these little devices. I mean, I got my phone right here. I'm on a computer.

00:04:36.300 I've got electronics and digital stuff all around me all the time. But we don't think about how often

00:04:42.200 these tools, based on what I've seen you talk about in your work, how often these tools are just being used

00:04:47.940 as, I don't know what you'd call, manipulation machines. I don't know what you call them, but it's pretty,

00:04:53.940 it's pretty scary, actually, considering all that can take place on these little devices that we think are

00:04:59.060 harmless. Yeah. I mean, that's a great way of starting off because I think that we probably

00:05:03.340 have overlapping demographics and mutual friends and our communities and everything where it's not

00:05:11.620 taking away from people prioritizing physical fitness or proficiency in firearms or survival

00:05:19.700 situations and stuff like that. But I think that the cognitive and the mental aspect of manipulation

00:05:28.300 and or warfare gets overlooked a lot because most people think, well, you know, I'm the exception to

00:05:35.540 the rule. I can't be manipulated, you know. And the problem in that logic is that, you know, there's

00:05:41.360 quite literally industries that have been built on, you know, machine learning that has had, you know,

00:05:48.120 20, 30, 40 years to refine its systems and become multi-billion dollar, if not trillion dollar

00:05:55.360 enterprises with the sole purpose of manipulating you in some capacity. And, you know, some people

00:06:01.540 might be like, well, you know, I get it politically and all these other different things that, you know,

00:06:06.820 there's the ideological polarities and stuff like that, that you get sucked into these conversations.

00:06:11.060 And we can go into more about that. But to distill it down, you have to think about what's going on in

00:06:18.540 this situation. You have a corporation with a customer. The corporations would be your metas,

00:06:26.220 your alphabets, Googles, YouTube, whoever. And the customer would be the advertisers. And the product

00:06:31.740 that they're selling is actually your attention. And people hear the attention economy and all these

00:06:36.400 other different things. And I feel like it gets used so often, the terms AI, algorithm, all these

00:06:42.400 different things that it kind of loses the meaning of what it's really like the implications are. And

00:06:48.720 when you're, you are the product and you're not paying for it, you are the product in this situation.

00:06:55.780 The thing that they're trading is your watch time on video, watch time on platform. And how do they

00:07:01.800 keep you in that system? Well, they've refined these systems over a period of time to figure out what

00:07:07.260 maximizes that. And unfortunately, um, I would argue that it's an unhealthy mental state is what

00:07:14.760 keeps you there. You could, you could go as far back as, you know, us being on the Savannah and

00:07:21.240 hearing the twig snap, you know, in the, in the grasses, that's a negativity bias tendency, uh, going

00:07:28.400 on in the background. The threat is, um, a greater response mechanism for you, uh, than just something

00:07:36.100 that's like, Oh, good news today. Right. You know, these, these negativity bias, um, uh, tendencies

00:07:42.520 keep you on the platform longer. I mean, I know, I know I could like, if I were to put a, uh, I did,

00:07:49.980 I put a positive, encouraging post about, I was traveling and how, you know, people are generally

00:07:54.260 good and decent to each other. And, you know, I get good engagement and good feedback, but I could,

00:07:58.180 I could say the same, I could take the same image, the same scenario I'm traveling. And I could talk

00:08:03.320 about the guy that I almost got into a fight with on a plane or something, or, or somebody had to be

00:08:08.540 dragged off the plane or, you know, some, some negative event that could have happened, which

00:08:12.340 didn't by the way. And that would do infinitely better than the positive posts that I put out,

00:08:19.260 which is discouraging because the real world isn't like that in my experience.

00:08:25.800 No. And that's exactly my logic. And a lot of the companies that I've been working on building

00:08:31.000 over the last few years in the AI space and trying to drive the value of posting to social media in

00:08:37.920 so many different ways to zero by creating so much noise that the term's been kind of coined over

00:08:43.540 the last few years as slop, but I've been doing it for about five years. Um, and, and, and my rationale

00:08:48.800 behind it is that, um, you know, for the greater part of 25, 20 years or so, probably since my space

00:08:56.840 at best, you're seeing a highlight reel of a person's life, the, the most sensational aspect

00:09:02.380 of it, you know, the, the, the couple going on the, I don't know, the exotic, um, you know,

00:09:08.180 vacation or whatever it is, or, you know, the things that are hyper, um, you know, sensationalized

00:09:14.180 and, you know, sensual, whatever it is, uh, anger inducing. Um, and the, the unfortunate,

00:09:20.480 um, you know, aspect to that is you, you get into these states and you don't even really

00:09:24.960 realize that you're losing your most precious commodity, which is time. Um, and you know,

00:09:31.080 it's, it's fine. Like I, I get it. A lot of people don't want to pay for platforms and stuff

00:09:34.780 like that. Um, but at some point you have to assess these, these, these, um, these systems

00:09:41.560 and processes and, and whether or not it, you know, it's, it's, well, for me, what I did

00:09:46.880 was, I guess I could go on a rant here, but, um, it, it kind of hit me as I was transitioning

00:09:52.300 in, in one of my roles and one of my companies into another. And I was like, okay, now what

00:09:57.980 do I do? Um, and in a very fortunate situation and trying to figure out what the next thing

00:10:03.140 was, I started doing these thought exercises as to, uh, you know, the person I'm trying

00:10:08.160 to please is myself probably 20, 30, 40 years from now. And again, not to unpack too many

00:10:13.660 things psychologically, but I never knew my father. Uh, so I found that I was always a

00:10:18.200 hyper performer in life in any career that I had because I was always trying to, uh, please

00:10:23.160 management or whoever the superior was. So I was always 110%, uh, given it everything

00:10:29.660 that I had. Uh, so I doubt you would ever meet an employer that said I wasn't one of the best

00:10:34.400 employees they ever had. Um, but you know, it becomes unhealthy at some point. And then when

00:10:39.080 you start getting introspective and looking at your life and how like, you know, I'm older

00:10:44.320 now, not in my twenties, I would definitely encourage guys in their twenties to hustle,

00:10:49.060 hustle, hustle. I burned it at both ends, you know, working seven, eight jobs at a time.

00:10:53.980 But now as I get later on in life, I have to figure out and prioritize those things that,

00:10:58.260 uh, mean a lot to me and do the work. And unfortunately, it is interesting when you like,

00:11:04.140 you have to consider to like, even, even when your phone pulls it up and says, you've spent

00:11:08.700 six hours and 17 minutes on your phone today. It's like, man, what could you have done with

00:11:14.560 that time that you just lost to doom scrolling, getting mad, arguing with idiots and putting

00:11:21.500 information into your brain? That's only going to create toxicity throughout your day.

00:11:26.260 Yeah, that's actually exactly where I was going. So that's, that's pretty much the first,

00:11:30.520 first chapter in so many different ways. Well, uh, maybe, maybe the second is insight because

00:11:36.080 as with any, any situation, you're going to want to have some kind of data point in this,

00:11:42.340 um, to try to keep you honest and objective about what's going on. Right. I'm in no way,

00:11:47.980 shape or form of my passing judgment on anyone in any capacity, you know, you could be a social

00:11:53.020 media influencer. You may need to do things for work. It's not passing judgment in any way,

00:11:57.560 shape or form, but I think a lot of people don't have that insight. So if you have the ability

00:12:01.900 to turn screen time on whatever, uh, iOS or Android device that you have, uh, let that run in the

00:12:08.940 background for about a month and then start holding that up, extrapolate that not just over a day,

00:12:14.040 but what I did was over a lifetime, right? So if I, if I, if I quantify, uh, how much I'm looking at it

00:12:20.340 in the span of a day or a week, and then I can multiply that times 52 weeks times, let's say I got 60

00:12:25.880 more years of life. Uh, hopefully, uh, then that's, that ends up being like, Oh shit, I'm gonna end up

00:12:31.300 spending, uh, 1.6 years on Instagram. Do I really care about that? Or when I'm 90 years old on my

00:12:38.180 deathbed, will I wish that I spent more time with my dogs? And that's kind of the thing that hit me

00:12:42.980 the hardest, like friends, family, my dogs, the things that I care about. Um, you know, when you're

00:12:48.640 on your deathbed and I include some different meditation exercises in that, uh, and one of them's a

00:12:54.320 deathbed thought exercise, uh, who's in the room with you, what's the temperature, all these different

00:12:58.440 things that ground you in that moment so that hopefully you can go back and assess, um, the

00:13:04.120 things that really are of value to you in life. Because if you, if you don't have insight, uh, going

00:13:09.440 on, you don't do the work and the things that are important to you. You don't have the foundation to

00:13:15.060 really, um, start shoring up your vulnerabilities cognitively and mentally, because you don't even,

00:13:21.360 you don't even have the framework for boundaries at that point. So there's, yeah.

00:13:26.980 Yeah. It's, it's, it is interesting how little we put forth that effort. You know, I, I talk with

00:13:32.420 guys about this all the time when it comes to, uh, you know, their finances or their fitness.

00:13:36.820 And it's like, you know, with their money, like when's the last time you actually pulled up your

00:13:40.900 bank account and look to see where your expenses were going? I actually pulled up my business bank

00:13:46.520 account today. And I noticed that there was two subscriptions that I have not used for six

00:13:54.340 months, eight months, a year that I had just forgot about. And I let go on and, but we don't inventory,

00:14:01.000 we don't audit like that. And I wish that we did audit more because I think we'd find a lot of

00:14:05.500 leakage in the way that we're spending our time, money and energy.

00:14:10.400 Don't get me started on, on, uh, software as a service and all these subscriptions and everything,

00:14:16.920 because that's what they bank on is you forgetting about that. Because like, unfortunately life is

00:14:22.060 hectic. There's a lot going on, especially if you're a working class person, you don't have time

00:14:29.140 to, uh, you know, dive into the nuance of things on a daily basis that, you know, and it adds up

00:14:36.780 ounces equal pounds. And so I'm sure that a lot of us have subscriptions. Like it just gets me really

00:14:42.320 frustrated when your, your mattress, uh, has a subscription service for it to, to operate.

00:14:48.580 What could you possibly need that for? Yeah, exactly.

00:14:50.900 Yeah. Well, I don't get me wrong. I like sleep is one of the most underrated cognitive tools out

00:14:56.560 there. Uh, improving that in so many different ways improves your quality of life, but, uh,

00:15:02.060 sure. But there's a cost of everything. And that, I think that's what people don't understand is,

00:15:06.880 so you might say, well, you know, I bought this eight sleep mattress or whatever, and it costs you

00:15:11.380 five grand. I don't know what the number is, but they're expensive. Yeah, that's about right.

00:15:15.200 And so you buy this, this sleep mat, eight sleep mattress and you're like, well, I'm getting better

00:15:19.820 sleep. I'm like, yeah. And you're, you're, you've paid $5,000 for it and it's going to break. And you,

00:15:25.040 I don't know if they require a subscription or I haven't really looked into it, but yeah.

00:15:28.960 Yeah. So, okay. You're sleeping better, but is it, is it that much better that you're going to pay

00:15:33.900 a hundred bucks a month or whatever it equals that could have been spent on something maybe more

00:15:38.680 useful, maybe more, more beneficial. Yeah. And again, not passing judgment, but it's just,

00:15:46.120 but that's exactly it. I think too many people are caught up in the, um, you know, just wherever the

00:15:51.780 wind blows, unfortunately life is busy. And, uh, you know, how do you, how do you shore up some of

00:15:57.200 these vulnerabilities? I mean, you look at, you look at, uh, information. It is again,

00:16:01.940 another rant here, but you look at how information has been optimized since we, well,

00:16:07.940 the printing press, even back before that spoken and written language, it's gotten easier and easier

00:16:13.260 to communicate at scale. And then you get the television or you get radio, then television,

00:16:17.620 then the internet. Now we have inundation of communication in so many different ways.

00:16:23.500 It's hard to parse the, uh, noise to find the signal in so many different ways. And, and you add

00:16:29.940 even more layers of optimization to that, like your Amazon one clicks and stuff like that, where it just

00:16:36.600 becomes so easy to just say yes. And, and these cycles. And, uh, unfortunately, you know, I feel like,

00:16:44.300 you know, you start looking at the, the writing on the walls with artificial intelligence systems.

00:16:49.260 Um, I feel like there, you could, you could argue that social media has had an emotional, um,

00:16:57.400 uh, maybe cognitive atrophy, uh, to society in some way, shape or form. But my big fear is that

00:17:04.240 artificial intelligence will have more of a cognitive atrophy. Um, and, and like most of our

00:17:10.500 demographic would focus on physical fitness. I think you need to focus on cognitive fitness as well.

00:17:15.440 Um, there's a reason why, uh, friction is such an important part of training in so many different

00:17:21.260 ways. You need to do hard things. You need to have friction in life so that you build up the

00:17:25.700 resilience, uh, downstream for the things that will matter. Well, yeah, I mean, thinking just builds

00:17:31.140 that muscle that is your brain. Right. And the other thing that I thought about with AI and, and this

00:17:36.500 is, I think partly what you're talking about with regards to cognitive, um, atrophy is the term you used

00:17:41.020 is just creativity. You know, if I, if I need to be creative, for example, about, I don't know,

00:17:46.660 a podcast or a course I'm writing, I could just go into chat GPT and have them plug something out and

00:17:52.060 be done with it, not have to think, but I did not have any benefit of being creative or any benefit of

00:17:57.580 feedback on what my audience wants or doesn't want. And I, I like the idea of cognitive atrophy.

00:18:03.180 I think that makes total sense. Unfortunately, you're right.

00:18:06.280 There's a few thing, a few exercises that I put in the book as an example. And again,

00:18:09.840 there's no right or wrong way. Hopefully people can figure out, um, different little tools or

00:18:14.300 exercises to help them through these processes. But, um, you know, once you go through the insight

00:18:19.640 and the, uh, kind of defining establishing these rules and boundaries, you're going to have to go

00:18:24.440 through a default detox phase and very much like a junkie. Um, you're going to find that as you

00:18:30.740 introduce friction in various areas, uh, you're going to go through withdrawal and it's, it's not

00:18:36.940 going to be easy. It's not going to be, uh, comfortable to say the least. And, and just kind

00:18:40.960 of some of these, these very simple exercises. I'm like, just leave your phone at home to go to the

00:18:45.920 grocery store. And you've been there a million and one times. You don't need Google maps or ways to

00:18:53.440 get there. You're going to make it. I promise you'll figure it out. And you know, if you get a flat

00:18:57.720 tire or something like that, it's going to be an adventure. Hopefully you know how to change a

00:19:01.660 tire. If not flag somebody down, like life will be fine. If you're gone to the grocery store for 30

00:19:07.640 minutes or an hour and you don't have your phone on you, but notice the withdrawal that happens when

00:19:12.340 you're separated from, from the device. And all of that's because there's a neurochemical dependency

00:19:17.360 on this thing that's with you all the time. And it's unfortunate, but you know, there's, there's

00:19:22.660 more like kind of thorough exercises that you can do too, but that's just one of them.

00:19:27.200 And even on the way to the grocery store, just take inventory of how many people are on their

00:19:31.720 phone. Like, like not, not just texting or whatever, or not with the phone just up, uh,

00:19:37.060 talking, but actually texting and stuff like that. It used to be that you used to get tickets and stuff

00:19:42.060 like that at red lights from traffic cops, you know, like looking at people texting on their phone.

00:19:45.980 And it seems like they'd just given up on it because everybody is doing. Yeah. Well, even today when I

00:19:52.320 was at the airport and look, I was guilty of it too, but I looked up for my phone for a second. I

00:19:56.900 looked around and nobody's talking to each other. Nobody's conversing. Everybody's buried in their

00:20:01.800 and I was too, I'm not pointing fingers. I was too, but I was like, Hmm, this is interesting. This

00:20:07.080 is not, this is not a development for the human species. Well, my hope is in, you know, I have to

00:20:14.020 be optimistic about these things is my hope is that, uh, we've reached a saturation point in so many

00:20:20.160 different ways where Gen Z is showing signs of, um, being a little bit more counterculture to their

00:20:28.500 millennial parents, probably. Um, you know, that you can say that they, they were, you know,

00:20:34.740 interested less in alcohol and all these other different things, but also, uh, less, less, um,

00:20:39.980 phone usage. Uh, hopefully this stems to more in-person stuff because I feel like there's a

00:20:44.720 community, like all of these are different chapters. Like community is such a huge component

00:20:48.620 to, uh, the lived experience and happiness. And I feel like we've, we've never been so connected

00:20:54.380 in human history with, you know, digital devices, but we've never been more alone through isolation.

00:21:01.180 And like that, that's another reason why I build some of these companies in the artificial

00:21:05.020 intelligence spaces, because I want to create so much noise that like people are just frustrated.

00:21:11.300 Like, I don't know if you've ever heard a dead internet theory, uh, or not, but the, the point

00:21:16.700 in which, uh, the theory is that, um, more artificial, um, more artificial, um, communication is being

00:21:27.100 generated than human communication on the internet between people, be it comments and, and, and chats

00:21:33.080 and stuff like that. Um, and, and hopefully we get to the point where I love seeing it on social

00:21:39.040 media now where everyone thinks everything's AI. And like that, that just makes, makes me feel good

00:21:44.560 inside because it means that people are starting to realize that social media. And I guess this is

00:21:50.460 where I was, this is where I was going before, but like at best, uh, in the past, uh, you know,

00:21:56.940 social media was a sensationalized version of somebody's reality at worst. It was completely

00:22:03.060 fabricated. It was face tuned or Photoshop. It would like, they, they were in a fake airplane

00:22:09.080 set or something, not really on a jet or whatever. And it creates these, these situations where,

00:22:15.320 you know, other people may feel less than, or they're FOMOing or, or whatever it is. And it's

00:22:20.100 like, no, you're not even, you're, those aren't even real people doing real things. And now it's

00:22:24.160 like AI, hopefully everything is fake and people start like.

00:22:27.540 I think everybody thinks it is. That's the default. Like I wrote a post on Instagram just

00:22:33.160 the other day and somebody had commented that's that captions AI generated. I'm like, what makes

00:22:39.300 you say that? And they're like, Oh, just because there's paragraphs and hyphens. I'm like, well,

00:22:44.360 those are actually rhetorical tools to make it easier for a person to read it. Like human beings

00:22:52.920 can do that. And in this case, I was the human being who wrote it, but it was just interesting

00:22:57.900 that they went straight to that because there was spaces in my paragraphs and hyphens in my,

00:23:04.280 in my sentences where appropriate. But I think it illustrates exactly what you're saying. The

00:23:10.000 default now is I don't believe it, which I don't blame people for thinking that way.

00:23:16.060 Well, hopefully, hopefully it leads to people spending less time on those things like maybe Instagram

00:23:22.040 and maybe more time like on podcasts where, yeah. And then, you know, media will evolve and

00:23:28.440 they'll find ways to, you know, suck people in with artificial systems or whatever, so that they

00:23:33.280 can maximize, you know, the desired outcome, um, so that they can monetize it. But, um, you know,

00:23:41.240 my hope is that people are going to start gravitating towards real people, authentic experiences,

00:23:46.280 because again, at the end of the day, the digital versions are way, way less valuable, um, and less

00:23:53.620 meaningful than the, the in real life kind of versions of it. Um, you know, one of the things

00:23:59.980 they even touch on is, um, the pornography component to it. And again, it's, it's not to pass judgment on

00:24:06.600 anyone in any way, shape or form, but using it as an example, you know, it's like, um, you're

00:24:12.200 shortcutting an entire process, right? So if you're, if you go from A to Z, uh, without, uh,

00:24:18.660 risking, you know, getting turned down or rejected at the bar or the, you know, the library, wherever

00:24:24.240 it is, you know, you're going to have to have a lot of shots on goal, uh, and rejections before

00:24:29.760 somebody takes you up on a date. And then you have to go on a date and then maybe date for a while,

00:24:33.660 get married, whatever the thing is until you get to the point of actually having sex and then the

00:24:38.360 orgasm or whatever. And so when that happens, all those friction points lead to a, uh, a more

00:24:45.240 resilient oxytocin, uh, neurochemical, uh, biological response. Whereas if you shortcut all of that stuff,

00:24:53.260 you're going straight to dopamine and, uh, and, and, and the reward mechanism in that. So you could

00:24:58.760 say that you could say that with fitness, there's so many different great physiological analogies

00:25:04.220 in that where it requires you to do the hard things, uh, so that the payoff at the end,

00:25:10.000 the delay gratification is more valuable to you. Well, I, I just had a really good conversation,

00:25:15.900 um, with Ian went, he's a good friend of mine. He was in Rexburg. I told you I was up there

00:25:20.420 and he asked me an interesting question. He said, what is, what is the root of all evil?

00:25:25.560 And normally when people hear that you always hear money is the root of all evil and like things like

00:25:29.380 that. But I said, no, let me think about that. I never really thought about that question. And I said,

00:25:32.400 it's probably greed. I would say maybe greed and envy is, is the root of all evil. And he said,

00:25:39.200 you know what? I think it is. I think it's expediency. And I said, tell me what you mean

00:25:43.700 by that. He's like, everybody's trying to shortcut everything and we'll do anything in order to get

00:25:49.260 it. We'll make up lies. We'll make up fabrications. We'll justify poor behavior just so we can have the

00:25:55.660 result without the effort. And it was a really interesting take. And I think it aligns with what

00:25:59.780 you're saying is that when you shortcut sexual gratification, for example, which is what you

00:26:05.620 were just talking about. Yeah, sure. You can get off immediately without having to do literally any

00:26:11.240 work at all. But how does that connect you to a human being? How does that help you learn how to

00:26:17.900 be somebody who can, you know, sell themselves and market themselves, I guess, in a way or charm other

00:26:25.160 people or have some sort of pro-social behavior development? It doesn't. So you're missing out on

00:26:30.440 all the benefit of the hardship of, in this case, getting laid, or it could be building muscle or it

00:26:35.480 could be building a business. You're missing out on those opportunities. Yeah, the Stanford

00:26:40.640 Marshmallow Study has been cited so many times in that as far as like the delayed gratification

00:26:46.620 component to it, just for people who aren't familiar with it distilled down, they would take a group of

00:26:52.660 children and they would tell them, they give them a marshmallow and they would say, we're going to

00:26:57.620 leave the room. We're going to come back in 15 minutes. You can eat the marshmallow if you want,

00:27:02.140 but if you don't eat the marshmallow, we'll give you two marshmallows. And then, so throughout the

00:27:07.540 experiment, there were, you know, different kids that exercised restraint and got the second

00:27:13.500 marshmallow. And then some of them, you know, sitting on their hands and trying all these different

00:27:16.800 things, their impulse control got the better of them and they just ate it. And they followed the kids

00:27:22.020 later on in life. And for the most part, the ones that were able to delay gratification were more

00:27:27.760 successful in so many different ways and showing that impulse control and everything. And you talk

00:27:33.960 about greed and all these other different things. It's, I believe exactly what he was saying too.

00:27:39.880 You know, you look at lottery winners are a great example, right? You know, an entrepreneur or

00:27:45.400 someone who may have to grind for 10 or 15 years to earn, we'll say a fortune or something like

00:27:51.740 that is one thing. And they'll, they'll understand the, the pitfalls and the things that come along

00:27:57.060 with, you know, the lawsuits, the, the, the people who are inauthentic in, you know, their, uh, behavior

00:28:04.040 and stuff like that, trying to mooch stuff off of you. They'll know all the different nuances to

00:28:09.160 having that type of money. But you look at lottery winners and statistically speaking, they don't fare

00:28:14.900 well after, uh, winning the lottery, you know, they don't hold on to it.

00:28:18.740 Yeah, that's exactly it. That's exactly it. And so I think there is something to be said,

00:28:23.440 uh, you know, we're, we're talking about a mental aspect where you're building up, um, uh, resilience

00:28:28.980 over a period of time with that friction, but there's, you know, there's, there's all these

00:28:33.780 other instances where, you know, like physiological, it'd be like working out or in those situations

00:28:39.400 with, uh, finances and stuff like that. So I think there are parallels for sure.

00:28:43.420 Yeah. Man, I'm going to step away from that conversation very, very quickly. Uh, we are going

00:28:50.040 to have our, one of our, well, it is our biggest event of the year. It's April 23rd through 26th

00:28:55.600 this year. It's not just another weekend. It's not one of these things that you see all the time

00:28:59.880 popping up on your Instagram feed and algorithm speaking of digital technology. Uh, but it's a line

00:29:04.640 in the sand. You know, most men are drifting. They scroll, they consume. We're talking about that

00:29:09.500 today. They talk about the man they used to be, or the man that they're going to become quote unquote

00:29:14.300 someday. I hear that all the time, but someday never shows up. But the men's forge this April is

00:29:20.440 where all of that nonsense and that noise and the words end. It's where you step away from that,

00:29:24.820 uh, from the digital battlefield even, uh, and the constant pull for your attention. And you step

00:29:30.000 into this refiner's fire. And that's why we called it the forge. It's real conversations. It's real

00:29:35.700 physical challenge. It's real brotherhood. And you're not going to find yourself sitting on the

00:29:39.860 couch. You are going to find yourself under load in the cold potentially, or on the trail and

00:29:45.680 shoulder to shoulder with other men who do not want to live small and other men like you. So this is not

00:29:51.780 about being comfortable or just enjoying yourself, although you will, but if you've ever felt the pull

00:29:56.420 the frustration, maybe, uh, restlessness, the voice that says that, you know, you're capable of doing

00:30:02.900 more than this is where you need to be with other guys who feel the same way. It's not just another

00:30:07.400 podcast. That's going to save you or another book or I'll start Monday. It's not even this event,

00:30:11.740 but what you learn at the event will change you. It's action. It's accountability. It's forging

00:30:16.820 yourself into the man that your family needs you to be and the man that you can look in the mirror

00:30:21.700 and be proud of. So April 23rd through the 26th, 2026 is coming up, whether you're ready or not.

00:30:27.440 And the only question is this, will you be there with us or will you be living the same life

00:30:32.640 you always have? Go to the men's forge.com. That's the men's forge.com. Do that right after

00:30:39.360 our conversation for now. Let me get back to it with Richard. Yeah. Well, to get back to the concept

00:30:46.300 of this, you know, you were talking about, I don't know if you use the term digital detox.

00:30:50.120 I'm sure you're familiar with Cal Newport's work, like deep work. And, uh, he's written some other

00:30:55.440 books that I can't remember right offhand, but he's got some incredible thoughts on emails. And I don't

00:31:00.440 even think he has social media presence and he'll go off for a while. Yeah. Oh, he does. Well,

00:31:06.660 yeah. So he has a YouTube. And so, yeah, I'm laughing because like, and don't take this the

00:31:14.800 wrong way. I absolutely love his work. I think he's doing a fantastic stuff. The irony in his work

00:31:22.380 is that he has to play the game, whether or not he has a social media manager or not. So like, uh,

00:31:30.600 the, the problem I had in like the researching for this and like going through, you know, people like

00:31:36.700 Dr. Anna Lemke's work, uh, which is, you know, different from Cal Newport's. Uh, but Cal has so

00:31:43.300 much social media, like YouTube videos and stuff. I'm like, dude, like the, the irony is I have to parse

00:31:50.080 so much noise. You're having to feed the beast and post every single day, every single few days.

00:31:56.560 And you talk for like an hour. I don't have time to go through all of this stuff, right? Like I need

00:32:03.220 the signal out of this because I don't have the time to spend like, I mean, I don't know how many

00:32:08.180 videos he has on his YouTube channel, but I'm sure it's in hundreds of videos. And so like the average

00:32:13.440 person trying to find the value in that has to, has to parse all of that. That's awesome. Honestly,

00:32:18.720 that's one of my, my hopes for AI in so many, in so many ways is being able to distill things down,

00:32:25.020 uh, because right now content creators are having to optimize for watch time on video and watch time

00:32:30.860 on platform. Otherwise their content's not going to get served up. So, uh, the irony in his stuff is

00:32:36.380 like deep work and focus. Um, but to go through all of his content is going to require you spending a

00:32:43.240 lot of time on his YouTube channel. I think the counter argument to that and, and, you know,

00:32:49.020 Cal obviously would have his, his logic behind it. But I think the counter argument is what you said,

00:32:54.340 said earlier is just being intentional. You know, it's like, think about how many podcasts there are

00:32:59.440 and millions probably. And so are you going to listen to all of them? No, you're probably going

00:33:04.820 to listen to five, three to five on average is what I find. Same thing with YouTube. There's millions

00:33:10.400 and millions of channels. So what do you listen to? You probably listen to a handful of channels and

00:33:14.900 that's it. And I think what we do is we just get stuck in these little rat holes because

00:33:19.620 the same, the same structures and systems that are being used to keep your eyeballs on YouTube

00:33:26.700 are the same structures and systems that were used to keep people gambling in Las Vegas.

00:33:32.260 You know, I live two hours from Las Vegas and I'll go down there and I'll see people pumping money,

00:33:36.320 not even money anymore, which is the one click thing from Amazon. You're talking about make it

00:33:41.380 really easy. So it's not even money. They don't have to feel the pain of pulling out their wallet

00:33:45.420 anymore. Um, but yeah, it's, it's, it's addictive behavior. It it's designed to do that. It wants you

00:33:52.940 to scroll to the next thing and the next thing. And here's how, you know, I think you tell me what

00:33:57.120 you think on this. Here's how, you know, if you've fallen prey to it, if you start to say, well,

00:34:04.280 I'm going to look at 10 more posts or I'm going to go until nine o'clock and then I'm going to stop.

00:34:11.300 And then all of a sudden you went through a hundred more posts or now it's nine 30,

00:34:14.880 you know, that it did something to you, manipulated you, like you said,

00:34:19.300 without even you acknowledging or realizing what happened.

00:34:23.460 Oh, for sure. Absolutely. There's a number of different ways to do it too. Like, uh, one of the

00:34:28.160 ones that was really valuable for me that I give it as an example is, uh, have you ever closed an

00:34:34.520 application only to reopen it? Which one was it, you know, like, like, and I, like, I know some people

00:34:40.920 will be like, no, I've never done, I don't know. I think a lot of, and, and those are, those are

00:34:45.840 compulsive signals, right? Like if you close it out and immediately reopen it, the other thing is,

00:34:51.540 is if you have iOS, you can look in your screen time. There's a, um, there's a data point called

00:34:58.540 first pickups that is very insightful in the back of the book. I actually give people, um, a 30 day

00:35:05.140 journal, uh, as well to fill out. And I, I, I want people to log their first pickups because I found

00:35:11.180 that extremely valuable to me. And if you, if you find that you're picking something up, uh, you know,

00:35:17.380 multiple times a day, you're getting a hundred notifications from it and everything. You really

00:35:21.500 need to ask yourself, do I need to remove this from my phone or do I need to log out and then log

00:35:27.440 back in to be able to use it? Uh, like how can you introduce these? Is what that's, that's doing

00:35:34.280 is if like my screen goes blank or shuts off or sleep mode, it's whatever I come to initially when

00:35:39.160 it wakes back up. Is that what that is measuring? That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean,

00:35:44.660 some people, it may be messages. Um, and you know, that's extremely popular form of communication,

00:35:50.040 but if you find that it's a social media application in some, any capacity, you know,

00:35:54.380 I have to wonder what's going on there. Uh, far as the hook. Yeah. I've turned off all notifications.

00:36:01.120 I don't get notifications on my phone for any app. Um, my phone is always on silent. I don't get

00:36:06.780 message alerts. I, it, I just actually, I think I get buzzed for messages, but nothing else. But I just,

00:36:13.900 I've tried to limit that as much as I can. I don't sync it to my watch anymore. My notifications to my

00:36:19.400 watch cause I don't want to be looking at my watch every three seconds, especially when I'm sitting

00:36:23.060 there talking to somebody and I'm like glancing at my watch every five seconds. How rude. Um,

00:36:29.260 so yeah, that's why I got rid of my Apple watch. Yeah. I got a Garmin too, like with a red face on it

00:36:36.660 because I found the red flashlight really happy or really happy, really handy. Uh, and it's funny you

00:36:41.920 say that about the notifications because again, I'm a hypocrite. Like, like we all have reasons why we do

00:36:47.580 certain things. It's just being intentional with it. I think that's the, if you take anything away,

00:36:51.620 it's understanding why you do certain things, but I'll give you an example. I did turn on

00:36:56.040 notifications here recently. I had a, um, I had a coyote, uh, kill 18 of my chickens and it's so

00:37:03.020 frustrating, so frustrating. Uh, so I ended up, uh, on my, my cameras around the property, I ended up

00:37:09.380 turning on no notifications. So the last two weeks I've had the worst sleep because I get up

00:37:15.740 walking like two o'clock in the morning, barefoot in the woods with like a thermal looking for this

00:37:20.620 guy. Oh my God. Where do you live? Yeah. Uh, I'm in Texas right now. Yeah. Okay. I was going to say

00:37:27.440 that sounds like a fun couple of nights of getting out out there and getting after it to me, but

00:37:32.220 yeah, it's, it's interesting. Cause you, you, uh, you, you have to, uh, yeah. During the winter months,

00:37:38.780 way easier to walk around barefoot because it's been a progression for me. I know this is a rant,

00:37:43.420 but, uh, you know, I used to wear boots and everything, but I found that I would make too

00:37:47.740 much noise, snapping twigs and stepping on crunchy leaves and stuff. And then I ended up going to

00:37:52.620 these kind of like wool socks and I, they're way quieter, but now I'm just like barefoot. So when

00:37:58.340 it gets summer months in Texas, you got rattlesnakes and scorpions and all these other things. It's just

00:38:03.880 not, not as, uh, conducive to being barefoot. Fire ants. Oh man. What? Okay. So I think a lot of

00:38:11.500 people talk, I mean, we all know, right. I think everybody that's the, that's the, that's the trick

00:38:15.800 here is that everybody listening already knows they're on their phone too much. Like they already

00:38:20.740 know they're doing these things too much. Like what, but what about other, other technology,

00:38:26.060 digital technology, like TVs want a lot of people don't think about, I mean, I talk with guys that'll

00:38:30.800 sit on the couch for six hours on a Saturday and watch college football, or they'll binge watch,

00:38:37.460 you know, Yellowstone or my, even my kids are like into stranger things. And so they'll binge watch

00:38:42.080 that. I'm like, all right, guys, like we gotta, enough is enough on this. Are there other mediums

00:38:47.560 that we don't often think about outside of just our, our phones and our computers?

00:38:52.400 Yeah, it's interesting because that's something I have to address in there too. And the detox phase is

00:38:57.760 that, um, you know, you have to look at this as, as an addiction. That's why I say, look at when you go

00:39:06.040 to the grocery store and these other different things, notice the withdrawal symptoms, because

00:39:10.660 most people are going to be like, I don't have a problem. I can go without like, but what generally

00:39:17.140 happens, and I, I, I even did this myself. Like I found that soon as I started deleting some of

00:39:23.020 these apps in my detox phase, I started substituting that behavior, that compulsive behavior with

00:39:29.200 different things like the weather app. Like, man, I can tell you the difference between the H triple

00:39:33.700 R model, the European model, like all these other different things. Right. And so you have to be

00:39:38.280 super careful. Yeah. Cause you're, you're, you're just substituting one thing for another. Um, and if

00:39:44.260 you do have a compulsive behavior around these things, it's not to say that you can't substitute

00:39:48.980 it. Like again, one of the stereotypes might be somebody who goes sober, finds a fitness and,

00:39:55.440 you know, maybe they have an unhealthy relationship with exercise in some capacity. Right. And it's like,

00:40:02.320 okay, well, how do you define what's unhealthy in that sense? That's why the work is so important

00:40:07.280 here in figuring out the things that, um, that are of value to you. Because at the end of the day,

00:40:13.840 uh, an addiction is, is really when you're, you're doing something that has a trade-off that is in,

00:40:22.420 well, isn't aligned with your values in that sense. Right. Because if you do have a compulsion

00:40:28.520 towards something that may make your life better and it may be aligned in your values,

00:40:34.120 then I don't see it as a problem. Right. So you just have to be cognizant of what's happening and

00:40:41.160 where you're substituting that behavior for, because as you go through a detox phase, you will

00:40:45.860 gravitate towards latching onto something else. I like that you're saying that because I think a lot

00:40:50.960 of the times when we're trying to improve ourselves as men, we often just think, well,

00:40:54.320 I'm going to stop doing that, stop doing that, stop doing that and stop doing that. And then my life

00:40:57.440 will be better. It's like, no, you will, you can stop that behavior for sure. Especially if you

00:41:03.280 have accountability systems, you have other men in your corner, you have structures and processes

00:41:07.860 for, for quitting. And you can definitely do that. But I think you're going to choose the path of least

00:41:12.760 resistance. That's going to fill that dopamine desire, right? Cause you're, you're benefiting from

00:41:19.240 getting on your phone and there's something that's happening physiologically that you're benefiting

00:41:23.160 from. And if you're not getting that, you've got to get it somewhere else. And it's like,

00:41:29.120 it's like drinking or drug use. The more you do it, the more you need to get the same level of high

00:41:34.560 that you previously had. So what are, what would you say are healthy replacements for digital activity?

00:41:44.720 Yeah. So let's unpack a few things that you said there. First things first, accountability is a

00:41:49.920 component in like, it's one of the chapters in there. And there are some pretty amazing statistics

00:41:55.400 around accountability. And so, um, you know, and again, these are very round numbers. So, you know,

00:42:01.760 always take statistics with a grain of salt, but, um, and I cite all the studies on it. Um, 50% of people

00:42:08.580 who, uh, develop a plan, uh, for a goal find success. That's you flip a coin. Yeah. Um, so, uh,

00:42:19.360 65% of people who commit to someone. So like, say you and I, I have like a weekly thing. So for me,

00:42:25.400 um, try not to do it digitally. It's better again, if you have a in-person tangible, like, uh,

00:42:32.020 relationship that you can lean on for this. But one of the things I did, uh, was every Saturday

00:42:36.520 morning, I would post my screen time, uh, just to everyone so that they could see what I was consuming

00:42:41.360 that week. It was kind of an accountability thing for me as well. Um, and then, uh, 95% of the people,

00:42:47.660 if they have a specific appointment, uh, find that they are able to attain their goal that they set,

00:42:54.480 which is wild. Putting a date on it, putting a date on whatever you're trying to achieve. Yeah.

00:42:58.580 Yeah. Well, or, or you say every single week we're going to work on this and then you eventually hit

00:43:03.860 that goal. Um, so I guess unpacking some more stuff that, which you have brought up there, uh,

00:43:08.880 the community component to it and the substitution, you look at things, uh, like global gyms,

00:43:13.800 the churn rate, how many people quit the gym after their new year's resolution? It's, it's crazy

00:43:19.400 high. Um, you know, I think there's even like a, a pizza holiday in January where it's statistically

00:43:26.940 the day that people quit. So like all these like pizza places run sales and stuff like that. It's

00:43:30.960 like, uh, are you serious? I've never heard of that. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's the day that everyone

00:43:36.080 quits and gives up on their new year's resolutions. Yeah. It's probably January 21st or something.

00:43:40.500 I'd have to look it up. Yeah. But you look at global gyms and stuff in the churn rate, people

00:43:45.180 who quit, um, over, you know, a short period of time and, and versus a CrossFit or an orange

00:43:53.080 theory where it's very community driven, where you have people in the class that you see on

00:43:57.940 a regular basis. You're not, you, you, if you go to an orange theory or a CrossFit, you

00:44:02.460 can't wear headphones because of the movements and everything. So you're listening to the, the

00:44:07.000 coach. So you're present with everybody in that, that group. Whereas if you go to a globo

00:44:12.760 gym, I'm not passing judgment. I did it too. Um, you know, whenever I would go to 24 hour

00:44:17.600 fitness or whatever, I'd have my headphones in, I'd be listening to my music and everything.

00:44:21.820 But what if, you know, you, you went into the gym and you were actually present for other

00:44:26.720 people. Now everybody else might have their headphones in, but these, these opportunities

00:44:31.200 opportunities for, you know, uh, community present themselves. And that makes you, uh, actually

00:44:38.160 I'll, I'll, I'll go on a rail here as far as like, um, uh, the, the community side of

00:44:45.240 things, gratitude is like the very last chapter for me, but that was like one of the biggest,

00:44:49.080 uh, needle movers for me. But like community is so important and, and realizing that you're

00:44:56.180 part of something bigger, uh, is, is so important, uh, for, I don't know, feeling valued in the

00:45:04.160 human experience. And so whenever I would do my gratitude exercises and stuff, like I would

00:45:08.900 get inside my truck and I'd take two to three minutes. Uh, and whenever I do gratitude exercises,

00:45:14.580 I wanted to make sure it was, um, intermittent or inconvenient, uh, in some, some capacity, it

00:45:20.900 wasn't, uh, uh, uh, a completely scheduled ritual, like praying before a meal, right? Which you can

00:45:27.280 still do, but it needed to be something that I wouldn't get into a very habitual way of doing it

00:45:32.200 where it kind of lost its meaning. And I'd just be like, Hey man, I am, I am universe, God, whoever,

00:45:37.720 I am grateful that I have reliable transportation. I have fuel. I have a job that, uh, provides me for,

00:45:44.300 you know, enough income that I can pay for reliable transportation and fuel. I'm going to,

00:45:48.840 I get to go to this location, wherever it is, if it's for dinner, if it's for work or whatever,

00:45:54.800 I'm just really grateful. And what happened was, is I was communicate or, um, commuting to different

00:46:00.580 places. I would find that instead of getting road rage and traffic in construction zones and stuff

00:46:08.060 like that, my, my thought processes started to shift. I was like, just, Oh, this dude is working

00:46:14.560 on a road in my community. He has a job. He's, he's probably got kids and a family at home. Um,

00:46:21.460 this dude gets to provide for his family and he's making my community better. It was really weird

00:46:26.600 how my perception on things started changing to a more positive spin. And you could say that about

00:46:32.600 almost all aspects of, of digital experiences, putting you against us versus them. And you're kind

00:46:40.340 of in a constant state of fight or flight, um, us versus them. And then you're seeing a lot of

00:46:45.400 thems out and you're just kind of always on edge and stuff. So, you know, there's, there's a number

00:46:49.960 of different, you know, I know I'm going on a rant here, but, uh, there's a number of different things

00:46:54.980 that I found extremely helpful in that process. That I, I've never really considered the, the level

00:47:01.420 of empathy that you were talking about that gratitude would bring. I mean, I'm sure I've experienced it,

00:47:05.680 but I never made that connection that when you're grateful for the things you don't, you don't see

00:47:10.840 it so negatively like that road worker that's bothering you. Cause he's filling the pothole

00:47:14.660 that you complained about all last year. And now you're bothering that somebody is filling it up.

00:47:18.200 It's like, um, so that, that's really interesting. The other thing that I've noticed about having

00:47:22.960 gratitude in my life is that I'm so much more present and open to opportunities that I didn't see

00:47:28.320 before. As I started to be gracious and have gratitude for the things in my life, I started noticing

00:47:34.740 opportunities for relationships, opportunities for conversations, opportunities for business

00:47:39.260 partnerships, opportunities to make more money or opportunities to get more fit or whatever,

00:47:44.020 just because I was in a completely different mind space, then everything's horrible. Everything's

00:47:50.480 out to get me. And if I didn't have bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all.

00:47:56.080 Yeah. Do you have any specific examples where you've like that just did it? Has it always been kind

00:48:01.740 at the, the, the front of like your mind here lately as you've kind of shifted into that? Was

00:48:07.220 there any, cause the traffic thing was kind of my example, but like I quite literally gratitude was

00:48:11.700 the biggest new needle mover for me. I mean, some people friction might be the biggest needle

00:48:16.560 mover for them, but I like, I feel like I want, I'm, I want to be an optimist, but I've, um, most of

00:48:24.060 my lives have been a pessimist in so many different ways because I'm a refiner.

00:48:28.260 And, and it is easy. I mean, I think most men are like that to varying degrees where we're looking

00:48:35.160 for problems because ultimately at the root of who we are, we want, we want to fix them. You said

00:48:39.560 refine, fix whatever you want to use. But even just this last trip that I was on with, with Ian, um,

00:48:45.700 you know, I, he's been a friend for a while. I've never met him in person. We sat down. I've been

00:48:49.380 very grateful for him and I have a positive outlook on life. And, um, because I was, have a positive

00:48:55.240 outlook on life. I asked him questions about what's he doing in business? How is he growing

00:48:59.760 his business? How is he reaching people? And man, some of the wisdom that he imparted me

00:49:05.200 over lunch, uh, you know, we, we, we sat down for lunch before we did the podcast was invaluable.

00:49:11.640 Like people would pay tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to have a coach tell somebody

00:49:16.820 what he told me over a bite to eat because of gratitude, because I'm optimistic. He's optimistic.

00:49:23.220 We synced up. I flew out there. The other thing you could think is like, okay, so I spent,

00:49:27.780 I don't know, a thousand bucks on a ticket, a couple hundred bucks for the Airbnb, um, you know,

00:49:33.140 a little, little bit of food here and there. I was out of work for a couple of days. And so you could

00:49:36.920 look at it and say, well, that sucked. Like I spent all that money. I spent all that time and I could

00:49:41.920 have been doing, you know, or you could say, well, no, I had the money in the bank. I had the money to

00:49:46.460 pay and I made the most of it and look what came of it. It's, it's amazing when you start having that

00:49:51.400 outlook like that. Yeah. Words matter so much too. Like, I think it was, um, Andy stump that was,

00:49:58.920 was, I think he was the one who told me about this was like framing up different things. And it was

00:50:03.860 like, oh man, that's so awesome. Like, because we were talking about the gratitude kind of component

00:50:09.980 to it. And he was like, yeah, you need to start saying I get to versus I have to, or no, I think it

00:50:15.880 was Judd. I think it was Judd. Yeah. Judd was the one who told me that he was like, he's like, say I

00:50:21.300 get to not, I have to. Um, and I was like, oh man, there are so many things in my life that I can put

00:50:28.840 two words in the front of the sentence. And it has such an amazing impact. I get to do this today

00:50:36.080 versus I have to. And there, there, there's so many instances. It's kind of like Jocko's good,

00:50:42.620 right? This horrible thing happened to you. Good. And what did you learn from it? And how did

00:50:48.040 you grow? And how did you get better? And what did, what, what, what lesson did you learn? And

00:50:53.360 if you look at it like that, it's still going to hurt. Nobody wants bad shit to happen to them,

00:50:57.400 but you're going to get through it that much more effectively.

00:51:02.420 Yeah, no, that's just a great way of like living in general. I think that at the end of the day,

00:51:08.600 you look at, man, so many people I've found have, um, they're so beat up by things happening in the

00:51:17.920 world, but then you get into the world of social media and so many people are frustrated and angry

00:51:25.240 about things that they have zero control over. And it's like, if you take, and I've been fairly

00:51:31.840 consistent about this. And like, I think I did a podcast 11 years ago with Coley on the war.

00:51:40.400 I was like, you know, how do we fix, uh, the, the, uh, you know, the, the firearms, you know,

00:51:47.840 you know, issues and stuff like that, that people see around the various different statistics or

00:51:53.420 whatever. It's like, it's easy. You focus on your family and you make sure that like, uh, you know,

00:51:59.760 you know, all the parents that your kids are interacting with or whatever you focus on your,

00:52:05.920 your direct, your indirect family, you're then your community, and then you can start worrying

00:52:11.400 about stuff on a state level. And if you're lucky, you know, and you have the bandwidth and the

00:52:15.560 capacity, then maybe the state, uh, or the federal or international level. But if you are living in a

00:52:23.320 constant anger or fear of things that you have zero control over, because this, this little digital

00:52:29.800 thing is serving it up to you on a, on a regular basis, it's like, you're, you're doing those people

00:52:34.900 who, uh, could use your help in your life, uh, disservice by not giving them the attention or

00:52:42.120 resources, um, that you could be doing. And if everyone did that, that again, the irony in that

00:52:47.780 situation is collectively as a species, we'd probably be better off for it because we would

00:52:53.220 build resilience. It's the most minimal locus of control. And that's you, that's your, that's your

00:52:58.860 attitude. It's your attitude towards whatever it is you might be dealing with. And then your kids

00:53:04.080 start to see that and your neighbors start to see that and the, the relationships and other people

00:53:08.620 start to see that. But what, what's interesting to go back to your statement about being ironic is

00:53:13.380 that so many people want to skip the line and say, well, you know, if I was in politics or I was in

00:53:17.440 this position, or if I led my company, I would do it right. No, you wouldn't. Like if I snapped my

00:53:22.280 fingers right now and I said, you're now the boss, you're now the owner of the company, you were in

00:53:27.220 the mail room and now you're the owner. I just snapped my fingers. You would drive that business

00:53:31.060 into the ground within a matter of probably weeks, if not sooner. Andy said this, Andy, uh,

00:53:37.140 Frisilla said this to me one time, and I'll never forget it. And he wasn't being rude, but he was

00:53:41.040 right. And he's like, Ryan, if I gave you control today of first form, I just said, here you go.

00:53:46.180 You're now the CEO get after it. He's like, you couldn't handle it. You would crumble. And he

00:53:52.640 wasn't being rude. He was illustrating the point. We have to build ourselves up first and earn the

00:53:58.480 right to be in those positions of authority and power and leadership and credibility. But too many

00:54:03.260 people just think, well, you know, if I had a bunch of money, if I was the boss, if I was in that,

00:54:08.180 if I was in politics, if I was the president, if you were that you would be, it'd be the same or worse

00:54:14.480 than it is now. You have to go out and earn it. Yeah, that's, uh, man, that's such a great point.

00:54:22.560 I feel like that's in a lot of ways, again, the reason why a lot of these different AI things that

00:54:29.200 I've been working on, um, are so important to me is because so many people, so many people, uh,

00:54:37.040 I mean, if you, if you have a business, you know, everybody, uh, has 2020 vision in hindsight,

00:54:43.500 everybody will come back to you with a solution to, uh, a problem or let me rephrase that.

00:54:50.880 Everybody will come back to you and tell you about a problem after the, the problem's been,

00:54:54.980 uh, figured out or, you know, at least known that there's one there. Very few people will come

00:55:01.180 to you with a, uh, uh, constructive criticism of it. And for me, that's, I wish we could get past

00:55:10.180 the point of everyone going, that's bad. That's bad. That's bad. It's like, okay, where's the

00:55:14.400 constructive criticism here? Like, like, like I, I like fixing things. Like I like moving the ball

00:55:20.360 forward. I don't want to dwell on, you know, whatever this is that, you know, in here, the same

00:55:26.340 sob story over and over politics is another thing that I'm, I'm really like, I, I wish people would

00:55:32.160 be looking at trying to figure out ways that we can start holding our elected officials accountable.

00:55:39.000 Um, when, and again, here we go again on into the ramp, but I've, I found that like everyone's,

00:55:44.900 everybody's frustrated left and right. Everyone knows there's a unit party. It's like, um, Munger,

00:55:50.280 uh, one of my favorite quotes all times is show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome.

00:55:54.380 Um, and you know, you look at things like politics where the incentives just to get

00:55:59.520 reelected, how do you get reelected? You need, you need money to do so. Um, if, if your constituents

00:56:05.520 aren't giving you money, where are you going to get the money from? You're going to get it from

00:56:08.000 industry. How are you going to, how are you going to get that, uh, you know, money from industry if

00:56:12.240 you don't scratch their back and everything. So it's like, okay, how do we shift this in some way,

00:56:16.140 shape or form? I don't know. Maybe we could get to the point where we have a discussion about

00:56:19.760 like, uh, a super PAC or something that, that, um, will support, um, different candidates that put

00:56:27.080 their, all their assets in a blind trust. Right. And you have like a core list of values. Like you

00:56:33.440 will never vote to increase the national deficit. Uh, you'll never, you'll only vote for things that

00:56:38.580 balance the budget. You'll never vote dem fringe on, uh, uh, second amendment rights. Maybe, uh, if

00:56:44.940 there's ever a vote on a digital, uh, rights or privacy amendment, you'll vote for that,

00:56:49.760 whatever it is, you list the, the few things that are kind of, uh, most people would say would be

00:56:55.840 reasonable. Um, and then you start filling out, uh, these, these different, uh, elected officials.

00:57:02.560 And if ever they vote against you, you can liquidate their assets and just, you know, sell their house

00:57:07.840 and all that other stuff or whatever. And the cool thing about, right. Because it, but, and, and that's

00:57:14.060 where I kind of, I, uh, I've kind of shifted my perspective on things where it's like, okay,

00:57:18.700 you know, the way that they've been trying to ban insider trading, I kind of misspoke on this the

00:57:24.660 other day, but, um, they, they frame everything as insider trading. So they don't want, uh, politicians

00:57:30.100 trading. I actually think politicians trading is fine. Um, but the point at which they're using,

00:57:36.140 uh, as the, the SEC would call it non-material, uh, non-public or material non-public information,

00:57:43.080 they are insider trading. Yeah, no, they should go to jail for that. Um, but I think that, you know,

00:57:48.760 we should have an incentive where if the elected officials are doing the things that are for their

00:57:56.640 constituents, best interest, you know, if, if you're, you know, a working class person in a,

00:58:03.120 in an area and your representatives always voting against you and what's good for you, I think that

00:58:09.660 they should lose just as much as you lose. Um, and I think that, you know, if, again, if you've

00:58:15.220 ever owned a business, uh, I think that there should be upside for them too. I think that like,

00:58:20.040 Hey, look, let's, let's balance the budget and do all these other different things. And if you guys do

00:58:24.040 that, you get some kind of bonus or an incentive or whatever it is, like incentivize these guys to

00:58:28.580 win so that we all win. Um, not like, because right now it's like, how do you suck the most amount of

00:58:35.160 money from the American taxpayer? Um, and it's like, we're just losing because of it. So I don't

00:58:41.200 know. There's, there's all these different things that I'm constantly trying to figure out solutions

00:58:44.820 to. And I just wish that people would be more, um, constructive with their criticisms and come to

00:58:49.600 the table, um, willing to have conversations and be wrong and say, Hey, look, you know what? Maybe

00:58:55.240 that thought was stupid. Uh, let me walk that back because now you can't even, you can't even be

00:58:59.800 wrong without being canceled for the rest of your life. And it's like, and nobody's perfect. Um,

00:59:04.900 well, there's also the can't, you know, and there's like the mass cancellation of the apology

00:59:09.240 to the mob. I'm like, don't do that. Like, that's not a real apology. If you actually,

00:59:13.160 if you actually injured somebody in some way, then apologize. But if, if somebody's offended

00:59:17.680 over nothing, it's like, you know, you don't need to apologize about that. But those are some

00:59:21.020 interesting ideas. I don't know that I totally agree with, with all of the way that would work,

00:59:25.660 but it's at least a fascinating thought exercise about being able to sell a congressman's house

00:59:31.160 or liquidate his assets because he didn't do what he said he would do or uphold

00:59:34.780 his campaign promises. That's kind of, that's kind of interesting actually.

00:59:39.000 Cause I feel like, I feel like the inevitability is at some point because the middle class is being

00:59:43.920 decimated at this point. I don't, I think that if we don't, if we don't figure out solutions to

00:59:49.620 these things, we're heading to a conflict that, um, the, the generations, well, actually, yeah,

00:59:57.120 I would say the last two, three generations haven't even, uh, remotely, uh, to experience in any

01:00:04.500 capacity. Um, and you know, I, I would try to prevent violence at all costs, but, um, you know,

01:00:12.380 that's why I think that people need to be, um, as constructive with their criticisms as possible

01:00:16.960 now, because if everybody's just pointing their finger saying something's wrong, something's wrong,

01:00:19.880 something's wrong. It's like, uh, was it Ray Dalio was saying, look, if we're going for a rock,

01:00:24.860 uh, we're on a ship and it's a barge and it's going straight for a rock. You have the camps that are on

01:00:30.620 both sides saying A or B, A or B, A or B. The worst thing that we could do right now is be indecisive,

01:00:37.600 um, and just sit on the sidelines and say, well, look, it's going to, you know, A's, A's a bad

01:00:43.900 direction. B's a bad direction. We're going for a rock like right now. Like, you know, we, we need to

01:00:50.320 figure this out. So like, if you're, if you're not going to be constructive, you need to like shut up

01:00:55.360 and figure it out. Well, I think, I think there's there. Okay. So there's another concept that I've

01:01:00.620 come across recently. Uh, my cohost, Kip Sorensen, he helps me on the, our question and answer podcast

01:01:05.560 every week. He has this phrase and I might butcher it just a little bit, but he says group accountability

01:01:10.560 undermines personal responsibility. And I think in a lot of ways, that's what's happened where we have

01:01:17.320 these elected officials and representatives, and we just expect that they're going to do what's in our

01:01:23.400 best interest. And we, we're going to assume that the checks and balances are taken care of,

01:01:28.040 and we're going to assume that other people are going to hold them accountability. And so therefore

01:01:32.680 I have no responsibility to say something, to attend city council meetings, to attend school board

01:01:40.800 meetings, to speak up and be vocal, to run for elected positions myself, because somebody else will

01:01:48.180 always do it. And that's where group accountability undermines personal responsibility.

01:01:53.100 So the answer is what personal responsibility, like handle your stuff.

01:01:59.260 Yeah. Well, and you know, man, I, I resonate with that. I mean, that's like, I'm an individual

01:02:07.280 rights absolutist in so many different ways. And that, that is, you know, you have to have

01:02:12.800 accountability with that responsibility. Um, and you look at the, but you know, we've,

01:02:19.140 as a society in so many different ways, we've leaned on the specialist for so long that the

01:02:25.500 generalist has been weeded out. And, um, it's, it's very unfortunate. You have three seed companies

01:02:33.960 control, you know, the, like 90% of the seeds and the global supply. You have corporations like John

01:02:41.860 Deere, which, um, and they're not the only ones, but they, you know, don't allow you to work on your

01:02:47.800 equipment and, and all these different things. There's so many different vulnerabilities. You look

01:02:52.900 at the, the, the pandemic in so many different ways, people talking about how supply chains are

01:02:59.120 so fragile. Yeah. I mean, because everyone's leaning on some very, uh, fragile, like very,

01:03:06.440 like there's, there's different sectors that have been like meat production. Perfect example. Cause

01:03:11.760 I'm, I'm, I'm, I love agriculture and there's so many different industries in which I'm like

01:03:15.700 trying to help out agriculture being one of them, but we're, we're losing resilience in our supply chain

01:03:22.220 and our food supply and so many different ways because we've outsourced and we've leaned on these

01:03:26.400 people to optimize, uh, for scale, be it Tyson or whatever you have, like four major producers in

01:03:32.720 the U S and they're able to take up, um, and, and manipulate the prices, uh, for meat processors.

01:03:40.100 And so that makes it that much more difficult for small farmers. And then you have regulation on top

01:03:45.320 of it. You can't, you know, yeah, if it, if, if it crosses, uh, state lines and you have USDA and all

01:03:50.720 these other different things, it's like, no, we need to, to build up resilience as a society. You need

01:03:55.740 diversity at a local level. So you need, you need small farms, you need, you need, uh, local

01:04:03.100 mechanics, you need local grocery stores and all these different things, because the point at which

01:04:08.040 we're doing a huge disservice to future generations is allowing the consolidation and the monopolies that

01:04:14.480 are happening. And I know I'm going on a rant, but it's like, that all starts in, uh, with personal

01:04:19.800 responsibility and our accountability at an individual level, because now I can, I can point and

01:04:25.480 say, Hey, look, that's a big problem. That's a big problem. I can't do anything about it, but

01:04:29.540 you know, there's, there's certain things that we can do. It's like, it's going to be expensive,

01:04:34.100 but I'm going to buy it from a local farmer. Uh, it may be a little bit more, but I'm going to eat

01:04:38.300 less. Maybe I eat less process crap because of it. You know, you know, there's, there's still the

01:04:42.700 ability to vote with your dollar in so many different, uh, so many different ways. Um, I like that you

01:04:48.860 talked about diversity in the way that it is actually beneficial. It's diversity and capability and

01:04:53.920 in capacity and skillset, not diversity and immutable characteristics. And I think culture

01:04:58.660 today is like, well, you know, if we have white people and black people and Brown people and

01:05:03.620 everything else, then we're diverse. Well, sure. You have a lot of people that look, look different,

01:05:09.700 but that's not strength. That, that means nothing or their, their, uh, sexual orientation or where

01:05:16.560 they were born. That literally means nothing. What means something is, and this is where personal

01:05:22.980 responsibility comes in is I may not be able to take on the global supply chain, but what I'm

01:05:28.020 really good at doing is having this platform that brings a voice to maybe farmers who would not

01:05:32.960 otherwise have a voice. And that's the skills that I bring. And maybe somebody else, I've got a neighbor

01:05:37.800 who ran a legit, a trucking logistics company was very, very successful. So you bring that guy in

01:05:43.760 to handle the logistics of distribution. And then you have a farmer who's been doing it for

01:05:48.580 fourth generation and knows how to maximize every square inch of his, of his land for maximum

01:05:53.940 production. And you bring that guy in that's true diversity. That's where it's actually useful.

01:05:58.400 Not these immutable characteristics that we get hung up on. Yeah. Nature is a great example for that.

01:06:04.560 And again, using, um, agriculture and everything as an example, uh, biodiversity and ecosystems is so

01:06:11.580 important to resilience. Um, you look at monocrops, um, you know, there's, there's so many different

01:06:17.140 instances where you can, you can find, uh, forests like whole forests that are monocrops for, uh,

01:06:22.480 harvesting be it eucalyptus or whatever. And you take and you sample the biodiversity in there.

01:06:27.980 There's, there's nowhere near as many different species of birds and everything else. Whereas you

01:06:33.240 get some areas, um, you know, you have a bunch of different types of grasses, you have different

01:06:37.380 types of trees, you get different types of, um, uh, animals, be it, um, you know, herbivores,

01:06:44.120 and then you get your predators coming in and then, you know, that builds up the soil. There's

01:06:48.060 so many different ways. And then like, you know, one of the reasons why, uh, I went down the path

01:06:52.780 of the warrior's garden, giving the analogy of the brain being, um, very much like soil.

01:06:59.060 Whereas like a healthy soil, there's a, there's a saying in regenerative agriculture. It's not how

01:07:03.680 much rain you get, it's how much you keep and how you get healthy soil, um, is through that

01:07:09.200 biodiversity where, you know, there's regenerative, um, you know, agricultural practices like no-till

01:07:15.380 and stuff like that. But the, the key is you build up a healthy ecosystem system. So whenever it does

01:07:20.760 rain, the water penetrates the soil, it goes into the aquifers and everything versus, you know, a

01:07:26.420 monocrop application where you're, you're doing conventional tillage. Maybe you don't have a cover

01:07:31.660 crop in the winter. It builds a crust up. And so that whenever it does rain, that water sheds into the

01:07:37.760 waterways instead of going down into the aquifers. And it just creates a, um, a system of needing

01:07:43.980 exterior inputs on a constant basis, be it fertilizer, irrigation, and all these other

01:07:49.940 different things, which have downstream impacts. Our mind is very similar in so many different ways

01:07:55.340 as an analogy, and that your inputs do equal outputs. And if you're constantly in this negativity

01:08:01.000 bias, um, tendency or whatever, it's like you're, you're, you're going to find that your live state

01:08:06.780 is going to be less fulfilling in so many different ways. And you're, you're losing your

01:08:11.720 most valuable, valuable resource, which is time. Well, less fulfilling and, and less productive

01:08:19.120 for yourself and for other people. Richard, this is awesome, man. This has been a great conversation.

01:08:23.940 Um, let the guys know where to pick up a copy of the book and to follow along with what you've got

01:08:27.460 going on. Um, obviously we talked about a lot today, um, and some things I didn't expect to talk

01:08:32.440 about, but that's why I like podcasting because we can have real conversations that ultimately lead

01:08:37.460 to growth and abundance. Yeah. I mean, you can go to warriorsgarden.com and you can find out more

01:08:45.340 about it there. I'm on social media and granted I'm not as consistent with it as I used to be and

01:08:49.660 everything, but I'll probably start doing more stuff here on YouTube soon. Um, and I'll give you

01:08:55.460 links to that if you want. Yeah. Well, we'll sync everything up in the show notes and let guys know

01:08:59.700 where to go, man. I was glad we could have this conversation and glad we can make it work. I dropped

01:09:03.540 the ball a couple of times admittedly, but I'm glad you hung with me. Dude, don't sweat it. I

01:09:07.280 appreciate you having me on. I really appreciate this. Thank you so much, brother. I appreciate

01:09:12.500 you, man. Let's stay in touch. Thanks for joining us today. Absolutely. Gentlemen, there you go. My

01:09:18.500 conversation with Richard Ryan. Uh, I love that conversation. I mean, the fact that we were talking

01:09:23.060 about digital warfare, but we got into what it means to be a man and accountability and all the things

01:09:27.600 that I love talking about and have been for the past 10 years. Uh, make sure you pick up a copy

01:09:31.960 of his book, the warrior's garden, follow him on the gram and connect with him. And then also make

01:09:37.640 sure to check out the forge. We've got Frank Schwartz, a CEO of F3 coming out. We've got Dwayne

01:09:44.360 Noel. A lot of you guys know Dwayne. He's been a past podcast guest. Uh, of course me, Larry Hagner,

01:09:49.660 and we've got some other exciting guests we're going to be announcing soon. So if you go to

01:09:54.380 themensforge.com and get signed up, we've got some great packages available over there,

01:09:58.840 themensforge.com. All right, guys, we'll be back tomorrow for our ask me anything until then go

01:10:04.040 out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order

01:10:08.800 of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:10:14.120 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

01:10:24.380 Thank you.

Order of Man - February 17, 2026

RICHARD RYAN ｜ Guarding Your Mind in a Digital World

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