Order of Man - ROBERT GREENE ｜ The Laws of Power and Human Nature

00:00:00.000 If only more of us as men learn more about the laws of power and the dynamics of human nature,

00:00:04.800 we'd be able to lead others more effectively. Unfortunately, many men believe that even

00:00:09.280 exploring these concepts is an immoral pursuit. And although these ideas can be used to hurt

00:00:15.460 others, they can also be used to fulfill our responsibilities to protect, provide,

00:00:19.760 and preside. Today, I'm joined by multiple New York times, bestselling author, Robert green,

00:00:24.340 to talk about the negative stigma that comes with power and human nature dynamics. We also cover why

00:00:31.600 you should consider embracing your weirdness, what he refers to as quote unquote, power games,

00:00:37.420 how life isn't always a win-win scenario. Why so many people have incorporated whining as a tactic

00:00:44.320 for power and why manipulation is not inherently wrong. You're a man of action. You live life to

00:00:50.680 the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down,

00:00:55.760 you get back up one more time. Every time you are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient,

00:01:02.740 strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day.

00:01:09.060 And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today?

00:01:14.660 My name is Ryan McCleter, and I am the host and the founder of the Order of Man movement and podcast.

00:01:19.760 Welcome here and welcome back. If you're new here, this is a movement designed to reclaim

00:01:25.680 and restore masculinity. There's a lot of society that would tell you that masculinity is wrong or

00:01:31.900 bad or inherently toxic. And we are the antithesis to that. We are giving you the conversations,

00:01:39.100 tools, resources, everything that men need to thrive as husbands, fathers, business owners,

00:01:43.620 and community leaders. And that's exactly what this podcast is about. So we're having some great

00:01:48.000 conversations with my guest today, Robert green and guys like Jocko Willink and Andy Frisilla and

00:01:53.100 David Goggins and other incredible men. I think we've interviewed close to 320, highly, highly

00:01:59.820 successful men in different areas and facets of life. So make sure you subscribe and leave a rating

00:02:05.420 review because not only will you not miss an episode that goes a very long way in promoting what

00:02:10.020 we're doing here in the visibility of the show. And it's my mission to impact millions and millions of

00:02:15.100 men across not only this nation, but the planet to help us again, reclaim and restore masculinity.

00:02:20.880 Before I get into the conversation, I do want to make a very quick mention that I appreciate all

00:02:25.580 the support at the order of man's store. We've got shirts, we've got hats, we've got decals and patches,

00:02:31.900 hoodies, windbreakers. And of course we've got our best-selling battle plan over there as well.

00:02:37.480 If you want to support what we're doing here and you want to look good in the process or pick up items

00:02:41.900 that are going to help you on your path to becoming a more effective, capable man, then head to

00:02:45.780 store.orderofman.com. Again, that's store.orderofman.com. Now guys, let me introduce you to

00:02:53.780 my guest in this conversation. I know this one's going to be a bit controversial because

00:02:57.600 Robert green tends to be somewhat of a controversial polarizing figure. Needless to say, his writings

00:03:05.800 and teachings have inspired much discussion. And again, also controversy about the laws of human

00:03:12.280 nature and ultimately how to harness them effectively. So you can get what it is you want.

00:03:18.100 He is the author of many books, including the 48 laws of power, the art of seduction mastery,

00:03:23.460 and the laws of human nature. And for over 25 years, he's been researching and studying and

00:03:30.080 sharing lessons about how people behave and why it is they, and we do what it is we do.

00:03:36.760 Uh, this one for me guys was a very enlightening discussion, especially on the back of, uh, our

00:03:41.600 conversation in our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council about the laws of power. Uh, he gave me

00:03:47.160 some tremendous insight into not only how his mind works, but how others work as well.

00:03:54.220 Robert, thanks for joining us on the podcast. I've been looking forward to, uh, to this conversation.

00:03:58.600 Pleasure, Ryan. I'm, I'm looking forward to it myself.

00:04:01.800 Yeah, you know, we live in no problem. We live in such a, such an interesting time. And, and as I

00:04:07.700 knew we were going to be having this conversation, uh, I've been reading your works and studying what

00:04:12.600 you do. And it seems to me that if more people knew of your work and what you did, that I think

00:04:18.100 we would struggle less than we currently are with our lack of emotional resilience and dealing with

00:04:25.260 people that we don't always agree with. So it's a, it's, it's a fascinating time.

00:04:28.960 Yeah. It sure is. You know, it's sometimes the weirdest and toughest and most unpleasant times

00:04:37.920 are the most interesting as well. So it's all good. What do you think makes, uh, you say the

00:04:43.960 weirdest and toughest times. What do you think makes these some, some strange and interesting

00:04:48.120 times from your perspective anyways? Well, I think we're going through some massive paradigm

00:04:54.360 shifts here. Um, I wrote about this in my last book, the laws of human nature, where

00:04:59.480 I talk about the zeitgeist and the formation of generations and how generations tend to fall

00:05:06.260 into these patterns. And the pattern that we're seeing right now is we're in what's called

00:05:12.580 a crisis generation. And basically what it means is the young people, people in their twenties,

00:05:20.020 maybe even in their thirties are entering the world that doesn't really make much sense

00:05:25.200 to them. It doesn't have much connection to their reality. They've grown up in with, you

00:05:30.660 know, a different model. They've grown up with technology, unlike my generation. And so they

00:05:35.660 have different values, different tastes, different fashions, et cetera. And yet the world and the

00:05:40.700 politics and the culture don't really reflect it. And so there's a lot of turmoil and a lot

00:05:45.840 of tension and a lot of friction. And, uh, it's one of those generations where people

00:05:51.380 are very confused and they don't know, really know what's, what's next, but they're yearning

00:05:55.640 for change, but they're not sure what that change would be. So that creates a lot of confusion

00:06:01.240 and that would generally ensues. And I think is awaiting us in the next decade or so is a kind

00:06:08.800 of revolutionary generation where a new generation emerges generation Y or Z or whatever they call

00:06:15.840 them. Um, that, sorry, that, um, we'll create something new, we'll create new values, new forms,

00:06:26.900 new structures, new ways of doing things that will reflect more of the spirit of the times.

00:06:33.800 Cause right now there's a kind of disconnect and the boomers that have so much dominated the theater

00:06:39.760 stage for so long or slowly getting older, they're dying, they're losing, they're not in positions

00:06:46.440 of power. So there's going to be a great shift, but in the meantime, it's, it's very confusing and

00:06:52.040 difficult and tough to live through. And then of course you throw in pandemic and you throw in the

00:06:57.780 effects of social media and you throw in all of the division in our country, you know, it from,

00:07:03.740 from a very close perspective, it looks pretty awful, but in a larger sense, if you pull back,

00:07:10.500 there's some interesting things that are kind of brewing underneath the surface.

00:07:15.100 You know, it's, it's interesting because as you're talking about this younger generation,

00:07:19.540 having a yearning for change, but not quite knowing what that is, I think there's probably

00:07:25.780 some common ground or some common interest between older generations or even mine, which I would say is

00:07:31.280 in between your generation and, and younger generations. Uh, it seems to me the older

00:07:37.900 generations want to cling to what they have and the younger generations want to completely remake

00:07:42.060 everything without turning to their elders for what has worked and what hasn't. I'm sure there's a

00:07:45.920 middle ground though. How do we find that middle ground?

00:07:50.480 Well, you know, generally people, um, young people are rebelling against the generation that's just above

00:07:57.560 them. And I find that that's a natural process. So to take it on an individual level, um, when we

00:08:05.760 are 16, 17, 18 years old in the grips of adolescence, I think it's a very natural and healthy phenomenon

00:08:12.140 that we rebel to some degree against our parents because we want to create our own identity.

00:08:18.760 But doing that leads to some foolish behavior, undoubtedly. And I can look back on some of my own

00:08:24.380 very foolish behavior when I was that age, because just reacting against something isn't often smart,

00:08:29.940 but on the other hand, it's necessary because if you don't do that, you're going to end up a

00:08:35.020 stunted individual. You're going to end up in your twenties and thirties, not knowing who you are,

00:08:39.080 not separating yourself from your parents. Doesn't mean your parents are awful. It just means you need

00:08:44.220 to find who you are. You need to differentiate yourself. And you, you can see that on a wide

00:08:49.680 generation level where it's not often healthy or great, you know, some of the cancel culture stuff,

00:08:57.400 some of the woke things are just going way too far and it's getting kind of irritating,

00:09:01.900 you know, but on a, when I say, when you pull back and you look at it from a distance,

00:09:06.700 you can understand it. It's part of a process where people are finding themselves. They go too far

00:09:13.160 in that process when they have to pull back. But if you don't go too far, you never know what is too

00:09:19.180 much, you know? So it's, it's a necessary thing to do. So, you know, personally for me, I like history

00:09:27.600 and I think there's some great things in the past, some values that we want to hold onto some great

00:09:34.220 cultural achievements that we should be proud of. So all of the stuff where people are just,

00:09:40.340 you know, canceling or disavowing, you know, naming, dropping the name of Abraham Lincoln

00:09:45.320 high school or whatever, you know, that's just silliness. It's stupid. It's pure stupidity.

00:09:50.680 But on another level, I can understand where it comes from. And I think hopefully at some point,

00:09:56.900 it will even itself out and people will realize they've gone too far and they'll find a way to

00:10:01.840 create change, but change. It's a little bit more rational. I might be wrong there. I don't know.

00:10:07.200 I don't have a crystal ball, but that's my hope. Well, I can certainly, uh, I can certainly hope

00:10:12.480 that as well. And, uh, you know, I think one of the biggest challenges with younger generations that

00:10:17.240 we see, and I can, I can definitely appreciate your comments on the desire to rebel. Cause I had

00:10:23.720 that, you had that, everybody has that and it is healthy. You know, I see my oldest son, for example,

00:10:28.280 uh, he's 13 years old and he's getting a little bit more mouthy to me than he has in the past.

00:10:34.900 And he doesn't want me around as much as he used to. And as, as, as hurtful as that can be as his

00:10:41.540 father, who has been accustomed to having him be around me and want to be around me all the time

00:10:46.780 and look at, to look to me as some sort of, you know, idol it's good. And I see that as being a good

00:10:52.960 thing. But one of the problems that I think the younger generations have is they have access to

00:10:58.340 social media, which is not something I had when I was younger and you as well. And so we get these,

00:11:03.880 these, these horrible ideas that aren't tested in reality. And then they start to spread where I

00:11:10.600 don't know that they would have spread 30 years ago. Like they do today.

00:11:15.040 Give me an example. Uh, you know, we talk about this cancel culture, for example,

00:11:20.360 cancel culture is a prime, prime example of that because, uh, people that were misguided or chose

00:11:28.320 to be offended by quote unquote, microaggressions, uh, didn't have the opportunity to rally together

00:11:36.960 the way that they do now and be outraged as an organization before they just had to deal with it.

00:11:42.880 And you just moved on with your life and got to whatever it is that you were doing. And it was

00:11:46.600 unimportant. So we make things that are unimportant, more important than I think they really are.

00:11:51.440 That's very, very true. Um, a lot of it is, it gets, it's very hard in the era of social media

00:11:57.120 to have a kind of emotional intelligence, to have some sort of distance from your own emotions,

00:12:02.720 you know, things like Twitter, et cetera, they're like rage factories, you know, all of their

00:12:09.660 algorithms are bent towards what will get the most views. And it's things that are outrageous,

00:12:14.900 things that are going to get your blood boiling. These are going to make you angry and pissed off.

00:12:18.580 And so they're masters at that. They're masters at that marketing device, but they're playing to the

00:12:23.480 greatest weaknesses in human nature, which I kind of point out in my last book, you know,

00:12:28.740 we're basically emotional creatures. And, you know, you see that in your own life,

00:12:33.560 your first impulse is to always react and be upset, angry, or happy or excited. It's not to

00:12:38.940 sit back and think, you know, about Plato and think about ideas and be rational. It's not natural.

00:12:45.440 You have to go through a process. That's part of becoming a human being. It's part of becoming

00:12:50.840 self-aware and not just reacting to everything that happens. So what you were saying is a very good

00:12:56.400 point because it's very dangerous when you're at the age of 13, 14, 15, within the most formative years,

00:13:02.080 where they're not giving you the space to kind of reflect a little bit. Everything is so much in

00:13:07.600 your face. I know when I was a kid, I'm not trying to make out as if I had a superior childhood

00:13:12.420 because there were many things that were wrong with my childhood. You know, I had wonderful parents,

00:13:17.120 but one thing I had, I was alone a lot. I had time to be alone. I had time to reflect. I created my

00:13:22.860 own games, my own fantasy world. I didn't have somebody always in my face telling me what to think,

00:13:29.180 telling me what to feel, telling me what's cool, telling me what's not cool. I can kind of,

00:13:33.920 you know, grow into what my own weirdness, into what makes me different. And so I can have a lot

00:13:40.460 of empathy for young people. It's not their fault, really. You have to give them some slack because

00:13:45.960 they didn't invent social media. They didn't choose to be born into this world. They think it's fine.

00:13:52.180 They think it's wonderful. They think it's like the air they breathe, but they don't understand

00:13:56.220 that it has, it's very dangerous and it's something very hard to control. So I can understand,

00:14:01.960 you know, the problems that it's kind of creating for people, particularly when you're in your

00:14:06.360 formative years. I think you're right. And when, when you say that we can't blame them,

00:14:11.520 but I also believe, and I think you would have tested this as well, that we have a moral obligation

00:14:16.880 to teach and to coach and to instruct and guide. But it seems to me that generally we're just talking

00:14:23.120 about on a macro level that we're more interested in making sure that their feelings are protected

00:14:27.820 and they don't feel left out or that they don't feel unimportant. And I had plenty of that when I

00:14:33.960 was a child, you know, I got left out and my, I got kicked off the teams and, you know, I went through

00:14:38.500 my fair share of hardship and that actually made me a more resilient individual as an adult. I fear that

00:14:43.360 our children aren't receiving those painful opportunities and lessons.

00:14:47.480 Most definitely. I completely agree. I mean, you know, I, I can think back on my own experience

00:14:55.980 of, of, of all of the kind of difficulties that I went through. And basically what happens is,

00:15:02.100 you know, when you leave college, if you go to college or you leave high school and you enter the

00:15:07.740 work world, you're suddenly not there with your comfortable little cushy life with your parents.

00:15:13.500 If you have a reasonable income, let's say you're not growing up in poverty and suddenly

00:15:18.460 you're smacked gobsmacked in the face with a harsh world where people can be nasty. People can be

00:15:24.220 manipulative where they're playing all kinds of power games, all kinds of egos are entering

00:15:28.580 and you've not grown up with this and you can get shrivel up and you can become like tissue paper

00:15:34.040 because you have no inner strength and the slightest thing can offend you. And you have no inner

00:15:40.060 resources to protect you from the kind of harshness of life. You need some of that when you're a kid,

00:15:46.700 you need to know that your team didn't win and that you lost. There are winners and there are losers.

00:15:53.900 Deal with it. Losing hurts. But when you know that you lost, it makes you feel like, well, I got to get

00:15:59.640 better. I got to compete more. Getting a bad grade is a good thing. I remember because I was very grade

00:16:05.860 conscious in high school. I remember English was a subject I loved, obviously, because I'm a writer.

00:16:12.660 And I remember I did an essay that I thought was the greatest thing in the world. I thought I had

00:16:17.060 rewritten Abraham Lincoln's Getty Burke address. I thought, you know, it was amazing. And my teacher

00:16:22.140 sent it back and it was the worst grade I ever received. And I was shocked. And I've never forgotten

00:16:27.340 that moment because I asked him what I thought this was wonderful. He went in, he listed all of my

00:16:32.720 faults as a writer, that I was too self-important, that I was thinking about the loveliness of my words

00:16:41.520 and not about communicating ideas. Well, that shock and that kind of hit in the face, it really woke me

00:16:47.680 up and it changed me as a writer. You need those when you're growing up. You need criticism.

00:16:52.640 You need to fail. You need to be criticized. You need to hear from your parents that that was wrong.

00:16:57.760 You can go too far. But generally, those are healthy things. So, of course, you know, we can't blame young

00:17:05.360 people for the environment they grow up into. We can't control social media. But you're right, as a

00:17:10.940 parent, you have a responsibility to not give in to this really weak, weak idea that you have to coddle

00:17:19.400 kids. The kids are so fragile that you have to envelop them in bubble wrap. They can't have anything

00:17:27.040 happen to them. Children and young people are actually incredibly resilient. They, they actually

00:17:33.360 can, and actually criticizing them gives them a sense that they're, that they're loved, that you

00:17:37.900 care for them. Whereas always coddling them doesn't make, doesn't feel like that. So, you have space

00:17:44.140 to, to, to give them some tough knocks because that's what's going to, you know, the worst people

00:17:48.620 in the world are those who are born with a silver spoon in their mouth, who inherit lots of money,

00:17:54.280 who inherit and then get, get, you know, shifted right through the past track to Yale or Harvard.

00:18:00.060 They have no inner resources. They have no skills. But the kids, I did a lot about this in the 50th

00:18:05.400 law when I was writing the book with 50 cents, 50 cents. But people who've had it hard, who've only

00:18:11.160 known the worst side of life, they're often the ones that figured out the best because they understand

00:18:16.360 the reality of how harsh life is. And they've developed inner strength and they can deal with it a lot

00:18:21.340 better than the coddled little, you know, little pampered babies that the other, that the well-off

00:18:27.760 have. You know, sometimes I feel like, I feel like we're doing good work here with this movement. And

00:18:34.780 you know, we've been doing this for six years. And then at times I feel like we're preaching to the

00:18:38.680 choir, that the only people who are listening are the ones who would agree with everything that you're

00:18:42.520 saying and everything that I say. And my question is, how do we then reach out to those individuals who

00:18:48.800 could actually benefit from seeing things a little bit differently, building in some resilience and

00:18:54.900 toughness and grit and fortitude, not only into their own lives, but into the lives of their

00:18:59.000 children and the people they have a responsibility for? How do we reach across the quote unquote aisle to

00:19:04.600 reach these other people who need to hear these messages? Well, there's, there's two possible

00:19:10.780 routes. There's the more important one of our culture at large, which needs to change some of its

00:19:15.740 values. It's been heading in this direction for probably 40 years with helicopter parents,

00:19:22.340 et cetera, where parents tended to dominate all aspects of their children's lives. And probably

00:19:27.940 there's a reason we, we're not going to go into it now because it'll probably be kind of boring

00:19:31.460 why this evolved the way it did, why parents have become so afraid and so fearful. So a cultural shift

00:19:39.300 has to happen. A generation has to rise up that says, it's okay to, to, to have some pain. It's

00:19:45.900 okay to be afraid. It's okay to have some tough things happen to you. I want my children to have

00:19:51.440 that, you know, I don't. So that has to happen on a level that you and I can't control. It has to come

00:19:58.780 from leaders. It has to come from teachers. It has to come from culture and the entertainment industry

00:20:04.620 and something, a wider movement, which would be wonderful. And if it is, if I saw it, I would

00:20:09.860 pile on and do whatever I could to give it more momentum on an individual. Do you see, if I can

00:20:15.780 interrupt really quickly before you get to the individual level, do you see small movements or

00:20:21.360 isolated elements of this that we could potentially latch onto? I know, obviously we can read books and

00:20:27.380 we can listen to podcasts like these and we can do those things, but there are there movements that

00:20:31.420 you've been aware of that we should ought to look into and ought to consider as we attempt to change

00:20:38.420 the culture to this one of sacrifice and struggle and meaningful pain. Well, I don't see a movement per

00:20:46.380 se. I wish I did. And maybe I could be wrong because I don't have my finger on everything. I read

00:20:51.600 things sometimes, an article or, or, or a book that kind of is talking about the same thing. So I know that

00:20:59.180 my mind is aligning with them. There's a great book called Anti-Fragile by Talib. I don't know if

00:21:05.180 you've read it. I forget his first name, excuse me, Nassim Talib. Nassim, yeah. You have? It's a great book.

00:21:10.420 It's about exactly the same thing in a very philosophical way, but in a very direct way

00:21:15.520 about, you know, our anti-fragile culture and how dangerous and nefarious it is. So I see other people

00:21:23.060 seeing the same problem, but it's, it's weak. You're, you're swimming against the tide. You know,

00:21:30.500 when you read things that kind of are reflect the general culture, like the New York Times or

00:21:36.860 Washington Post, or you watch the news or whatever, that kind of the cultural influence is there. It's

00:21:43.480 sort of like the air that people breathe. It's, you can't really change that. And that is,

00:21:48.720 you know, has effects on all of us. So I don't really see the little seeds yet. I know that

00:21:56.520 human nature being what it is, people are going to rebel against this because we as humans are defined

00:22:05.880 by our resilience. It's what made us who we are right now. You know, I write about this in several

00:22:13.040 of my books. We're actually physiologically very weak creatures, right? We don't have chimpanzees and

00:22:20.520 gorillas could crush us in a second. There's so much stronger. A leopard could, could eat us in a

00:22:25.460 minute. And they did, they were feasting on us back several million years ago. You know, we don't have

00:22:30.180 physical capabilities that are very powerful in, in, in actually in, in nature. But what we did have

00:22:36.980 was our, our social skills, our ability to work together and our resilience, our toughness,

00:22:43.000 because we lived in a, in a, in a ruthless environment in which we had to learn how to cope

00:22:49.120 and how to deal with a very harsh environment and look at where we are today. And, and the,

00:22:54.860 and the amazing things we've accomplished, it's only because of how the hardness of the world

00:23:00.300 that we have to push against. So humans need resistance, continual resistance. The environment

00:23:07.420 needs to press on them and make them go, God, I don't want this. I've got to figure out a better

00:23:11.580 way. And then we become incredibly inventive, right? So, but if you take that pressure away,

00:23:19.100 if everything is easy and nice and wonderful, and, and you don't feel the environment pressing it on you,

00:23:25.000 then we opposite happens. We become, we just melt. We become decadent. We don't have any inner skills.

00:23:32.300 It's the end of all of the great civilizations that were doomed to ancient Rome. And perhaps it's

00:23:37.480 happening to us right now. So, but we like, we crave actually some kind of resistance. If you like

00:23:45.680 to exercise, like I like to exercise, it's, you know, only like by swimming, you resist, the water is

00:23:51.620 resisting you lifting weights. It's resisting you running, you know, that's what makes you stronger

00:23:56.460 and tougher. And you actually enjoy that feeling of something pushing against you. And so I think

00:24:02.740 that at some point people will be so sick of this, that they'll rebel against it. They'll crave

00:24:08.640 some kind of, you know, one thing I do see is I see a lot of people engaging in kind of what looks like

00:24:16.980 from a closeup self-destructive behavior. You know, they're, they're doing their, their parkouring,

00:24:23.440 whatever you call it, their mountain climbing and the most dangerous things. But that's great. That's

00:24:28.580 great because you realize that you want to put your life at risk. You want to do something kind of

00:24:34.020 dangerous and risky. So on individual levels, when I see that, I find that as a kind of rebellion

00:24:40.960 against the fearful, safe culture that we live in. And you notice, I don't do mountain climbing

00:24:46.240 anymore because I've, I've physically not, you know, I've had a stroke and everything,

00:24:50.420 but there was a whole movement about mountaineers, two movements. One is the 90% of people who do rock

00:24:57.240 climbing. It's all about safety and the best technology and making things as easy as possible

00:25:03.260 for it, for you, making, giving you maps to go exactly to where you want to go and find your phone,

00:25:08.500 you know, and just, it's a, and then the 10% would hate that. Right. Say, look, I want it to be hard.

00:25:14.400 I want it to be tough. I want to risk my life. The risk factor is what makes the adrenaline rush.

00:25:19.900 It's what makes it exciting. And they're rebelling against that. So those kinds of movements, I mean,

00:25:25.780 those are small little trivial things, but those kinds of rebellions on an individual level that we

00:25:30.400 see in people are signs of this, this culture is kind of gross. I don't want any, I want to rebel against

00:25:36.660 it. Well, on the question of how to influence people, you have to be very careful

00:25:41.520 because people have their mindset. And I, you know, I wrote about that in my last book. Sorry

00:25:47.520 to keep bringing that up. No, it's great. If you want to, if you want to influence people,

00:25:52.280 you have to not hit them in the head and say, you're wrong. You're coddling your kids. You're

00:25:58.120 going to create a monster. You've got to do it my way. That's going to actually reinforce,

00:26:02.800 they're going to think that you're an asshole. They're not going to listen to you. Doors will,

00:26:07.400 walls will come up. That'll never go down. Sure. More, more rebellious nature, of course,

00:26:11.880 comes into play again. Right? Yeah, exactly. So you have to get inside their world. You have to

00:26:18.200 get inside how they're thinking and you have to plant little seeds inside of them, you know? And,

00:26:25.180 you know, if I had a particular instance, I could, I could kind of spell out because I do this

00:26:30.400 sometimes with people who, who have problems with their children, I could spell out kind of ways to

00:26:36.000 make that kind of conversation where you kind of almost seduce them into thinking, into realizing

00:26:43.120 the power of, of criticism or the power of, of failing, you know? But it's mostly, you have to

00:26:51.780 be very gentle and you have to be very strategic. You have to think it out. So yelling and hectoring

00:26:56.500 people never works. Yeah. You know, that, that's all I can say on that, on that front.

00:27:02.340 Men, let me hit the pause button very, very quickly. Uh, obviously we've been talking a lot

00:27:06.660 about how humans behave and along those same lines, I found that one of the things that we,

00:27:11.360 as men crave most in our lives is other men who are willing and able to walk shoulder to shoulder

00:27:17.720 with us in life. Uh, of course there's the camaraderie of brotherhood, but the accountability

00:27:22.620 that comes from surrounding yourself with successful men cannot, cannot be overstated.

00:27:29.260 Uh, and that's why the iron council, our exclusive brotherhood is so powerful inside the iron council.

00:27:34.760 You're going to unlock access to the network of men that you can count on to push and teach and mentor

00:27:40.520 and band with you. And you'll also find the framework that you need to thrive in a world that

00:27:45.780 continues to grow more complex and competitive day by day. So if you're ready to band with a solid

00:27:52.600 group of men and get the accountability, the framework and the network, then join us inside

00:27:57.860 the iron council at order of man.com slash iron council. Again, that's order of man.com slash

00:28:03.620 iron council. You can do that right after this conversation, because for now we'll get back

00:28:08.060 to it with Robert. No, I think that's absolutely true. I mean, anybody's ever tried it specifically

00:28:13.960 over some sort of social media. We know, we know that doesn't go well. You know, I am really

00:28:19.780 interested in how people perceive not only you as an individual, but your message, because

00:28:24.800 you're talking about things, for example, knowing human nature and how to, you use the word

00:28:29.940 influence, which I think is a, is a powerful word and a powerful idea. Uh, but then I'm sure

00:28:36.060 you run across people who would say that it's manipulative behavior, which I don't think is inherently

00:28:41.820 bad, but that has a negative connotation for a lot of people. Uh, how do you, how do you have

00:28:47.720 conversations with people who don't agree with what you're doing or the way that you approach

00:28:52.820 human nature or the laws of power, these types of things? Well, the main thing is I try to never

00:28:58.840 get defensive because the moment you get defensive, you've lost it. Your ego gets intrudes and you start

00:29:05.520 getting emotional and you get angry and you say stupid things. So I never take it personally. In fact,

00:29:11.840 I think it's a good thing if people disagree with me because it shows they have some spirit.

00:29:16.360 And then I try and think of what it is that, you know, the, the source of their anger or their,

00:29:24.480 or their, or their problems with my work. And I've been doing this now for 22, going on 23 years

00:29:31.620 since the 48 laws of power came out and I've been getting feedback from people, you know, and I've,

00:29:37.600 I've seen a pattern of types of people who really dislike my books and who get upset with them.

00:29:42.940 They're usually people who have an illusion. I mean, I'm obviously I'm revealing my own prejudices

00:29:50.400 who have an illusion about life. And the illusion is that we're basically these angelic creatures

00:29:56.060 who basically humans are basically good. And, uh, we need to appeal to that. There may be a few really

00:30:03.720 bad apples in the world and they, we have to fight against them, but basically most people are good.

00:30:09.400 I would never manipulate. I would never do anything like that. I'm not interested in power.

00:30:15.480 I'm, I'm always interested in the betterment of mankind and helping other people. And I find those

00:30:21.040 are the ones who really, really get upset with my books because I'm touching a cord and I'm hitting

00:30:26.960 a nerve where they realize unconsciously, maybe that's not true. Maybe I have a manipulative side.

00:30:34.700 Maybe there's a dark part of my nature. Maybe I'm not as saintly and as good as I, as I think I am.

00:30:41.020 When you touch that little raw nerve, they react and they get very upset and they go the opposite

00:30:45.480 direction. They direct their anger at me and they're really upset at me, you know, for revealing what

00:30:51.540 they think is, is taboo. And so, um, I have to be very careful. It's like, it's like surgery. You know,

00:31:00.740 if you cut two with a too thick a knife, you're going to cut the brain open. It's very delicate

00:31:05.920 with these little instruments that you apply and you have to say, well, for example, do you ever

00:31:12.960 think about, um, you know, children, for instance, you know, children, we think of as really angelic,

00:31:19.320 sweet and nice. But have you ever had children? I'll ask them. Do you, do you remember the kind

00:31:26.400 of nasty side of your children when they were growing up? Horrible. How rough they could be

00:31:31.400 and how they would, they would manipulate you, how they would play on all of your emotions,

00:31:37.500 all of your love to get exactly what they wanted out of you. Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. I remember

00:31:42.580 that. Well, if children are like that at the age of four or three, you don't think that says that

00:31:49.060 there's something deep in human nature. They haven't yet been socialized. They haven't yet

00:31:53.500 had all that drummed up. Would you say that there's a manipulative side to human nature

00:31:58.480 that's kind of ingrained and that we sort of repress or try to disguise as we get older.

00:32:03.920 If I can win that small point, if I can get that wedge in there, I have a little opening then to bring

00:32:08.860 my heavier artillery in there, but I have to first sort of create a little space. And I'll use an

00:32:13.900 example like that, you know, or then I'll say in the area of seduction, because I wrote a book called

00:32:19.700 The Art of Seduction, which some people will criticize, but a lot of people will criticize

00:32:23.020 for being too manipulative, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I go, all right, when you're,

00:32:29.040 have you ever been interested in a man or a woman, whomever I'm talking to, and that you really,

00:32:35.000 really want them. You want them in your life. You want to have sex with them. You want to have a

00:32:38.620 relationship. Yeah, sure. Okay. On that first date, did you just simply wear what you normally

00:32:46.540 wear? Did you simply talk how you normally talk? Did you like go out pizza and beer? Or did you go

00:32:52.480 to a nice restaurant? Did you try to impress them and kind of tailor what you said to bring out your

00:32:59.500 best side? Well, yeah. Okay. Well, would you consider that manipulative? Would you consider that being

00:33:04.580 direct and honest? No, you were trying to impress them, which is natural. There's no shame about it.

00:33:10.500 It's part of courtship. It's part of what you have to do. If you just reveal how relaxed and lazy you

00:33:16.380 are and how you eat normally kind of bad food and how you dress poorly and how you have the worst kind

00:33:22.500 of films and you watch a lot of porn, they're never going to be interested in you. Right? So you show

00:33:27.300 them your best side. Yeah. Okay. Then I've got my little wedge in there and they got them to reveal

00:33:32.420 the fact that in matters of love, they do tend to manipulate, at least what I would call manipulation.

00:33:38.280 So that's how I would approach it. Yeah, that makes sense. It seems to me that, and I'm guilty of this

00:33:43.460 too. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody that I wouldn't be willing to point at myself. But it seems

00:33:48.680 to me that we're a little bit delusional about how we show up, our desires, even if they're maybe not

00:33:56.580 righteous or virtuous desires. It seems though that the more that we acknowledge our natural human

00:34:03.760 tendencies to be lazy and immediate gratification and want the result without the effort, when we

00:34:10.520 actually recognize that in ourselves, we give ourselves the opportunity to address it in an

00:34:17.280 appropriate way that will help produce positive outcomes for ourselves and the people that we

00:34:21.780 care about, our wives, children, friends, clients, et cetera, et cetera. Well, it comes down to one very

00:34:30.120 important question. Are you interested in actually having results in life? Are you actually interested in

00:34:36.660 getting what you want and having a better life? Or are you interested in just whining and complaining

00:34:45.180 and feeling aggrieved and feeling like the world is against you? What matters to you most? Okay.

00:34:51.760 Well, if it matters getting results, then let's look at it this way. Let's say you want to get somebody

00:34:57.860 interested in your idea or you want to change your son's behavior. But let's say you want to have your

00:35:03.280 film funded and you need money and you're looking for backers for it. Okay. Now you have to then make a

00:35:10.920 decision. Are you going to think about them and what they want and their world and their values and

00:35:16.380 their ideas? Or are you going to be wrapped up in your ego and just go simply tell them, I have this

00:35:21.920 great idea for a film. It's going to be so great. Give me your $5 million, please, because it's going

00:35:26.460 to make you a fortune, et cetera. Which is honestly, because I live here in Hollywood and I know it very

00:35:31.660 well. That's how 98% of people approach any kind of pitch meeting or any kind of sell. They're thinking of

00:35:38.600 themselves. They haven't done any research. They haven't gone into the mind or spirit of the other

00:35:43.340 person. Right? So if you want success, if you want things to happen, you have to do the work. You have

00:35:50.280 to expend the effort because normally we take the path of least resistance and we want things easy.

00:35:56.320 We always want to dream about the great results. So you have to be strategic in life and then you have

00:36:01.040 to go to the next step. All right. What can influence this person to want to fund my film?

00:36:06.720 All right. Who are they? What have they funded before? What are they looking for? What is their

00:36:12.520 family life like? What are their friends like? What is their world like? What are their values?

00:36:17.980 All right. Now I have an idea. I have an idea about that. All right. What might appeal to their

00:36:22.300 self-interest? Right now, some people might step back and go, wow, you're being kind of manipulative

00:36:28.280 there. You know, you're kind of like playing on their psychology and their weaknesses to get what you

00:36:33.060 want, man. That's not good. That's not healthy. Right. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's no,

00:36:37.220 it is because I want to get results. I don't want to waste time. I don't want to bullshit. I don't

00:36:41.200 want to get gratified on my ego. I don't want to tell my friends how wonderful I am. I want to actually

00:36:45.680 get the fucking thing funded. And once that gets funded, the world opens up for me. So when you think

00:36:51.860 of results and you think of being practical, then you have to enter the realm of manipulation,

00:36:57.820 of strategy, of persuasion and influence, and it changes the whole game. It's inevitable.

00:37:05.700 It's inevitable in life with human beings. If you want to accomplish things, I'm not sure I

00:37:10.920 answered your question. No, I think you're right on. I think people get so hung up on the term

00:37:16.960 manipulation and it's really kind of an amoral term. It's not good nor bad. It's just really how you use

00:37:22.700 it. You know, I had a chiropractor, for example, come to my house a couple of days ago and he was

00:37:27.020 quite literally manipulating my spine. You know, he's pushing on this area and that area and he

00:37:33.100 was doing it for a reason to get the spine back in alignment, et cetera, et cetera. And I think as

00:37:38.520 long as your motives are pure, there's a lot of opportunities for, we'll use the term manipulation

00:37:45.480 because that's what we've been using, where interests are aligned. This podcast is a great

00:37:50.520 example. Our interests are aligned. You would not have agreed to come on this podcast if there wasn't

00:37:55.580 some thing that you felt you could benefit from. And I wouldn't have invited you if there wasn't

00:38:01.040 something that I didn't think I could benefit from by having you here. So yes, maybe we looked after

00:38:06.900 each, our own interest and we appealed to the other person's interest, but it aligned and we created

00:38:12.060 a win-win opportunity and situation here. That's right. That's right. And it's how you have to think

00:38:17.240 in the world. I mean, I don't think there are enough people on that, on that level because so many,

00:38:22.700 so much behavior seems all about winning ego points and about proving you're right. If you enter

00:38:30.000 an argument and it's all about, I want to prove that I'm right and you're wrong, then give up right

00:38:37.400 then. But if you enter an argument and you go, I want to maybe change their opinion. I want to maybe

00:38:44.380 have an effect on them. I want to maybe slowly make them realize that maybe there is a different way of

00:38:52.100 looking at the world, not better, but different way of looking at the world. Okay. Once you make

00:38:57.040 that decision in your head, then the whole game changes. Then you have the ability to perhaps alter

00:39:03.280 their opinion or influence them. If you think you can go through life without that ability, you're a

00:39:08.540 moron, right? You're going to have a life full of misery because you're going to be running into

00:39:13.780 people like bowling pins and knocking them down and no one's going to like you. People might smile.

00:39:19.220 You'd be lonely. People smile at you and say, yeah, I love you, but they'll never agree with you.

00:39:24.640 They'll never do what you want. They'll secretly rebel. So you have to be aware of this aspect of

00:39:31.360 human nature. We're a social animal and people naturally think of their own interests in any kind

00:39:37.620 of situation. They're resistant to change. They have their own ideas. They don't love your ideas

00:39:43.840 because you're you and you have to deal with that. You have to find a way to overcome that

00:39:48.140 and you have to be strategic. So, you know, if, if I can't get people to believe that and agree with

00:39:54.280 me on that, then I don't even, there's no point in even discussing it because we don't, we don't see

00:40:00.000 the world in the same way, you know? Right.

00:40:02.440 But, you know, I make a point in my books, the last thing I'll say, I deliberately in my book,

00:40:08.080 the 33 strategies of war, I brought in the character of Mahatma Gandhi, because here you have

00:40:13.800 the most saintly figure in history. People always point to him about civil disobedience,

00:40:20.820 no guns, no violence, et cetera. And I show in the 33 strategies of war, this man was incredibly

00:40:27.940 strategic. He waged a war against colonialism, against the English in India with very precise

00:40:37.160 marches that he knew would get his, his followers beaten up by the police, would show up in the

00:40:43.880 newspapers in England and would affect liberal opinion in England. He was incredibly strategic

00:40:49.160 and he, it was brilliant and he, he won that war. So if Mahatma Gandhi was a strategist,

00:40:54.960 what the fuck is keeping you being such a higher, you know, holier than thou person who thinks you

00:41:01.240 don't have to enter into that kind of dirty sort of way of thinking anyway.

00:41:05.860 Well, you know, so this is an interesting, this is an interesting vein that we can take on this

00:41:10.300 because even these individuals, we're using the term strategy, if you're not going to be a

00:41:14.200 strategist, right? And so we'll hear these individuals complain about microaggressions and

00:41:19.280 being triggered and offended about every little thing and that I'm, that I'm better than you or

00:41:24.640 virtue signaling and more righteous. I actually think that a lot of these individuals know

00:41:30.540 exactly what they're doing and we aren't quite giving them credit for it. They're using whining,

00:41:37.340 complaining, bitching, moaning, virtue signaling as a tactic, a strategy to get exactly what they want.

00:41:45.140 And many of us write it off as they're morons, they're dumb, but they're actually not. They're

00:41:51.380 being very tactical in their approach. They're just using this method to get what it is they want,

00:41:57.720 which is attention or money or notoriety or fame or whatever.

00:42:02.400 Yeah, I would agree. And I think it's an example of there's a kind of, I don't know what the metaphor

00:42:07.440 comes to my mind, but there's this kind of gravity among humans where we naturally want power. That's

00:42:16.400 what I say in my first book, right? The feeling of having no power or control over your life makes

00:42:22.340 you miserable. The fact that you can't influence your children, your spouse, your boss, your colleagues

00:42:28.460 will make you a very bitter and angry person, right? So we want a degree of control over our

00:42:36.300 environment over the people around us. Not complete control. Obviously that's impossible. Not even

00:42:42.420 that much, but just enough to influence them, just to get them to not bother and upset us. So we begin

00:42:48.400 from premise A, we all want that power. Well, people naturally like water falling off a cliff will find

00:42:55.360 their way to how they can get that power. And they will find it in some way by hook or by crook.

00:43:01.380 And if they can get power by complaining, by getting a lot of attention, by being very passive

00:43:07.960 aggressive, I talk a lot of my books about passive aggression strategies, because I see a lot of that

00:43:14.800 in our culture. And I don't mean to, to get, you know, to seem like I'm a paragon of virtue, because I

00:43:20.800 notice in myself a lot of passive aggressive behavior traits that I'm aware of. And I try and not

00:43:26.600 try and get rid of, but they're there, because it's very much entrenched in our culture. But

00:43:31.780 people will find a way, like water, to where they can get, they can get some power. And if it comes

00:43:40.200 from seeming more saintly than other people, if it seems like they are on a higher moral ground,

00:43:47.720 they will use whatever they can, whatever weapons are at their disposal. And yeah, they will,

00:43:53.020 they will find, you know, now, I want to make one point clear, I understand a movement like Black

00:44:00.800 Lives Matter very well. I find it, there's a lot of, you know, truth to it. You know, I understand

00:44:08.280 there in the incredible, the insane history of racism in this culture, and what they've had to deal with

00:44:16.560 police. So I don't want to make the impression that I think that something like that is, is totally out

00:44:23.460 of bounds, that they're protesting about that, etc. But there's a side, other side to it in other areas,

00:44:29.960 that definitely goes way too far, where it's not about getting any kind of results. It's not about

00:44:35.900 really about changing the world. It's, it's not about practical solutions, or making, changing the

00:44:42.740 police mentality, and actually, you know, make, creating some kind of justice. It's about just,

00:44:49.840 you know, appearing saintly, or virtue signaling. So I differentiate that. People who are fighting an

00:44:58.660 injustice, and they're practical, and they're strategic, I'm totally on board with it. I think

00:45:03.220 it's great, it's healthy, and it's human. But those whose strategies are all towards, here towards

00:45:08.560 getting attention, and whining, and complaining, yes, they'll get some kind of power in our culture.

00:45:14.460 But it's a power that doesn't lead to anything. It doesn't lead to anything practical. It just leads

00:45:18.960 to a lot of fear, and a lot of intimidation. So, you know, that's all, I just want to bring that up.

00:45:25.080 Do you, so do you believe that, that, that power is the fundamental motive for everybody? Do you think

00:45:32.820 everybody is driven by that? Of course, we're driven by other things too, as well. But do you think

00:45:37.120 at its, at its, at its root, that it's, that everybody is after some form of power, at least

00:45:42.200 the way that you define it, and the way that you talk about it? I think so. It's, it's part of some,

00:45:47.640 the chapter that I'm writing in my new book. But there's, you know, my favorite philosopher in the

00:45:52.140 world, as most people will know, is Friedrich Nietzsche, who I devoured since I was 16 years old. And

00:45:57.660 it's like, I love all his books. And he wrote a book that's kind of, was published after he died,

00:46:03.300 called The Will to Power. And he defined, his idea of The Will to Power changed over the years. But in

00:46:10.400 the end, the idea was basically, it's built into any living organism. The desire that you want to live,

00:46:19.240 and that you want to expand, you want to have, you want to expand in your environment, you want to have

00:46:25.080 more room, more room as a predator, you want more space. If you're, if you're prey, you have a will

00:46:32.720 to some kind of power or control with your environment. And he built that into his definition

00:46:36.800 of life itself, as a kind of organic biology. He was arguing, actually against Darwin, because he

00:46:43.860 thought that that was the motive force in biology. And you can argue against that or whatever, but I

00:46:49.780 found a lot of truth to that. And I think it's-

00:46:53.580 That evolution, I just want to step in here for a second. So Nietzsche, that evolution was a byproduct

00:46:59.020 of our desire and quest for power. Am I understanding you correctly?

00:47:04.160 Yeah. It's not power in the sense that we think of power. It's not the power, you know, in politics

00:47:11.500 or whatever. So the word, because we're translating the word Macht from German, and it has a different

00:47:17.300 connotation. And so it's not that kind of, you know, human power that we're talking about. It's a desire

00:47:24.840 to, I think the word that he would use is expand, expand your, your, your territory, expand your

00:47:32.660 circumstances, expand your possibilities, right? And where he disagreed with Darwin was, Darwin believed

00:47:39.960 it was mostly random. Evolution occurred through random processes, that there was no, the word is

00:47:46.920 teleological. There's no purpose behind evolution. There's no God guiding it. It's just random. And

00:47:53.560 Nietzsche said that there is something guiding it in a way. It's not God, but it's the desire for each

00:47:58.920 organism to expand and to have this kind of more power within its environment. And that was driving

00:48:06.140 evolution. Now, of course, most biologists and scientists would find it kind of silly. And I

00:48:11.720 understand that he's not a scientist. But I think there is some validity to what he was saying. So if you

00:48:18.380 extrapolate that to humans, I think there's something built into the life force that kind of wants this

00:48:25.260 expansiveness, that that's what being alive means. You know, being dead means nothing changes. You're just

00:48:32.920 decaying, you're not different. You're decaying, you're detracting, you're, you're, you're reducing,

00:48:36.740 you're not expanding. Yeah, right. So just by breathing, and just by being alive, and by being,

00:48:42.740 as we are omnivores, you're trying to expand your what you your range of possibilities in life.

00:48:49.880 That is a will to power. And I believe it's, it's extremely natural. And I give the point, as I said

00:48:56.580 earlier, if you look at your child, even at the age of one or two, they're displaying this

00:49:02.660 already, maybe even younger, I don't even know, three months old, they're displaying it already.

00:49:07.160 Oh, from the time they're born, because what do they do? They cry, because they need something.

00:49:13.040 So that is their, their built in biological system, saying, I need something, and you need to give it

00:49:21.500 to me. Exactly. Why do people reject this idea? Then what I mean, not everybody, but there's a there's a

00:49:29.280 large percentage of people that that reject this idea of power. Is it because we put a negative

00:49:33.520 connotation? I mean, the only thing I could think is that we, we might assume that power exclusively

00:49:41.720 means and I think this is a growing trend in society, that if I have something, or I obtain some

00:49:48.880 level of power or growth, or my bank account increases, then it came at the expense of somebody

00:49:56.540 else. I think that's a big problem that a lot of people have or assume is the case.

00:50:03.120 Well, it probably did come at the expense of somebody else, but that's the nature of life.

00:50:07.540 You know, when one fish eats another fish to survive, it came at the expense of that smaller fish. I'm not

00:50:14.620 talking in a Darwinian sense of, of, you know, the struggle for existence and survival of the fittest.

00:50:21.060 But there's not always win-win situations. You know, if two people are vying for the same source

00:50:28.720 of money to, to finance a project and one gets it and the other doesn't, one won and one lost. Sorry,

00:50:36.080 that's life. And what losing should make you do is it should make you try that much harder.

00:50:41.640 God, I'm sorry. I'm, I forgot what the original questions remind me. I had an idea and I,

00:50:45.520 I'm slowing down here. Well, I like that you were talking about that. No, no problem. I like that

00:50:49.220 you were talking about that, but what I was, what I had said earlier was, uh, why do people have such

00:50:54.520 a negative connotation of power? Okay. Or the concept of it? Well, because they, they, we live in,

00:51:02.760 in a very moralistic culture and, um, it's probably a little bit of a relic of the 1960s where power was

00:51:11.640 sort of associated with these nefarious backroom people in government or leading the Vietnam war

00:51:18.880 or with Watergate, et cetera. So the sort of idea evolved that power was this ugly thing. It was them

00:51:26.880 versus us. Right. And so, uh, I don't want power. So the, the, the saintly approach was I'm not

00:51:36.680 interested in power. I'm not really an ambitious person. And if you say to people in a social sense,

00:51:44.020 you know, I actually want power. People are going to judge you negatively. They're going to think

00:51:48.160 something's wrong with you. I think you're antisocial. If you say, you know, I'm an ambitious

00:51:52.660 person. Some people, they might not be quite so negative, but most people will think, God,

00:51:57.260 he's probably an asshole. You know, he's probably just after like getting a lot of money and screwing

00:52:01.680 people. Right. So there's that association with the word. And I think it's a cultural thing that

00:52:06.700 has evolved over time, a kind of embarrassment. You know, a lot of it happened from the United States

00:52:13.000 was the most powerful country in the world in the sixties and still is to this day. We emerged from

00:52:20.180 world war two as the preeminent power. We went through the 1950s and we consolidated in the sixties,

00:52:26.380 we just took off. And a lot of people were kind of embarrassed and ashamed about that. And I remember

00:52:32.880 a quote from Gore Vidal. I can't remember the exact quote, but he was saying that people have

00:52:39.560 this illusion that they want to believe that America became the most powerful country in the world

00:52:44.780 just by being good, just by being decent. There was no kind of games being played, no kind of

00:52:51.160 exploitation, no kind of warfare. And then he said, look at Franklin Delano Roosevelt. And the

00:52:56.360 this is something I've written about. He was an extremely power hungry, ambitious, manipulative

00:53:02.300 politician who accomplished amazingly great things for us, brought us through the worst depression in

00:53:08.760 our history, brought us through the worst war in our history. He was, but look, he was very much

00:53:14.560 interested in power. So we're embarrassed about it. We're ashamed about being human itself. And that's

00:53:20.720 what I write about in the laws of human nature. We're actually rebelling against being human

00:53:25.180 because being human means to be a complete individual, is to have aggressive impulses,

00:53:31.420 is to have dirty, nasty thoughts about other people. It is to be envious. It's also to be

00:53:38.840 cooperative. It's also to be intelligent. But we want to repress all that dark stuff. And just

00:53:44.580 imagine that we're these, you know, as this one woman said, that we're descended from angels instead of

00:53:50.120 primates. You know, we want to get rid of that primate origin of ours. And just imagine that

00:53:56.240 we're these sort of angelic creatures, right? And so there's an embarrassment about being human itself,

00:54:02.960 about our basic drives, about the dirty aspects of human behavior. And it's tremendous about a shame of

00:54:11.300 it. And I think it's, it comes, I mean, I'm not going to spend, we could spend five hours talking

00:54:16.980 where that comes from, because I think it has roots all the way going back into the 18th, 17th century.

00:54:22.940 So it's something that's building up. It actually goes back further than that. But you don't see that

00:54:28.420 kind of shame and embarrassment in ancient cultures and more indigenous cultures. It's more something that's

00:54:34.840 evolved among us going back maybe 800 years in Western civilization. But it's very much ingrained

00:54:42.540 in us to be embarrassed by the primate animal side of our nature. That's all. That's the best way I can

00:54:48.860 look at it. Yeah, that makes sense. And I think there's an element, and I've heard people say things

00:54:53.060 like this, that we've, we've, we've gotten better, right? We've evolved to be better, that that's no

00:54:58.160 longer a thing. That argument makes me so angry. I can't tell you. It's the Steven Pinker argument.

00:55:07.900 Enlightenment now, our better angels. Okay, Mr. Pinker, let's look at the facts. This is the 20th

00:55:14.820 century where we've evolved. Okay. We had the death camps in Nazi Germany. We had Auschwitz. Okay.

00:55:22.220 We had, we had Soviet Union, probably the greatest mass murderer in the history of mankind was Joseph

00:55:29.020 Stalin. Estimated that 80 million people perished in his labor camps, and in World War II by his stupid

00:55:36.640 mistakes, etc. You look at the Chinese communists and the incredible, you look at McCarthyism, you look

00:55:42.860 at Rwanda, you look at the Turks fighting against the Armenians and that genocide. You look what's going

00:55:49.360 on in the Middle East, you look what's going on in Africa right now, you know, and all the wars we've

00:55:54.800 in Vietnam War. Oh, we've gotten that much better. We've gotten better at disguising some of those

00:56:01.640 things. So people don't see it. We don't see all the deaths and all the mayhem in our face, although

00:56:08.920 we might see it on the nightly news. We've gotten better at kind of keeping it a secret. But we're,

00:56:14.020 why would we suddenly have become these angelic creatures? You know, we evolved from primates.

00:56:22.040 And obviously, unless you disagree with that, I don't know who does chimps. Okay. And we had

00:56:28.040 aggressive, violent impulses built into us over millions of years. That's how our brains were wired.

00:56:35.400 We're also very cooperative creatures. We have two sides to our nature. But do you think in just the

00:56:41.480 last 200 years, we've been through culture, we've been able to rewire our nature, our brains,

00:56:47.260 so that we've somehow become these better people? I find that massively irrational. There's an argument

00:56:52.980 people can make against me. And I've read it. And, you know, I listened to it. Maybe I'm wrong. But I

00:56:59.100 find it very irrational, very illogical, that we would be able to rewire our nature. It's altered,

00:57:05.660 obviously. We're not clubbing people over the head. Sure. We're not like those Scots in kilts in that

00:57:11.900 movie, Braveheart, you know, obviously, we're not in Braveheart land anymore, that much has changed.

00:57:18.020 But it's less direct. So what I wrote about in the 48 Laws of Power is, you won't be beheaded for

00:57:26.700 making a terrible mistake at your job, as you might have been back in the days of Cesare Borgia,

00:57:33.700 but you'll be fired. And all kinds of ugly things will happen. And people will be mean to you, but

00:57:38.620 it's less direct. It's less bloody, but it still is very aggressive. So that argument, I'm sorry,

00:57:46.580 I revealed my own little weakness. So that argument gets me gets my blood boiling. I find it so absurd.

00:57:53.600 Well, I think, and I tend to agree with you. And I, and I think that it's a better way to approach

00:58:00.540 life, because the alternative is to assume that everybody has their, your best interest at heart,

00:58:07.360 that they're going to leave you alone, that they don't want what you have, that everybody's, like

00:58:12.340 you said, angelic and perfect. And of course, we know that when we do that, we let our guard down,

00:58:17.240 because we think people have noble intentions. And then we expose ourselves, and we make ourselves

00:58:22.920 weak and vulnerable. It's just not a great way to live. It's better to us. I'm not going to assume

00:58:28.940 that everybody's a horrible person, but to assume that people have negative thoughts that they are

00:58:34.960 after their own self-interest, that they are greedy. And as long as we are aware of that,

00:58:41.100 then we can maintain our own interests, the way that we see fit in the way that other people are

00:58:45.920 relying on us to do.

00:58:47.940 Yeah. There's the old Latin expression, desire peace, but prepare for war. Basically, I, you know,

00:58:56.200 there's, I call it a kind of asymmetric warfare. And normally, asymmetric warfare, we defined as

00:59:02.560 guerrilla fighting or terrorism or that kind of thing, where you're sort of leveraging your weakness,

00:59:09.900 the fact that you have less, a smaller army or less weaponry into a strength, right? But there's

00:59:16.620 another kind of asymmetric warfare, which is fought on the ethical ground. And where I talk about that,

00:59:22.360 or think about that as someone like a Vladimir Putin and Russia, where if you have less scruples,

00:59:30.240 if you have less morals than the other side, it gives you a tremendous advantage, unfortunately,

00:59:37.260 in the battles of life, right? So here's Putin, who doesn't live in a democracy, who basically will

00:59:44.140 do anything to screw with the United States, right? All bets are off. He's not going to face

00:59:49.860 re-election. He's not going to face a Senate or a Congress that's going to say, don't do that,

00:59:55.060 Vladimir. He can do whatever he wants. He's going to mess with you. So not to say that we're not guilty

01:00:01.040 sometimes of similar things, but he'll do whatever he can to mess with our elections,

01:00:05.180 to infiltrate, you know, our cybersecurity, et cetera. He'll poison people and then pretend that

01:00:12.820 he never did it. He'll invade a country and said he never did it because he doesn't care. He'll do

01:00:17.680 anything. So if you're amoral, if you have no scruples, your menu of options is now A to Z.

01:00:25.120 Sure. Limitless.

01:00:26.180 You're moral and you have a Congress and you have a balanced power. Your menu is A to C,

01:00:32.260 not A to Z. It gives you an advantage. Well, in life, there are Vladimir Putins all around you.

01:00:38.880 They're not everyone. You're not supposed to be paranoid. But I would estimate one out of 10,

01:00:44.320 one out of 20 people in your environment, in your office, in your work group are like him.

01:00:50.020 Maybe more, maybe the percentage is higher. I don't know. They have less scruples than you.

01:00:54.480 They're more manipulative than you are. They're more aggressive than you are. They're willing to

01:00:59.600 do more than you are to advance their own strategy, their own agendas, right? So if you're all naive

01:01:07.120 and wonderful and think that they're great, you're going to get screwed. So the game is to be aware

01:01:13.300 that there are the Putins out there. There are people who are willing to do things that you're not

01:01:17.960 willing to do and to be more strategic in defending yourself and defending your interests. Once

01:01:24.400 again, I've forgotten what your question is. But I think I hope I don't know what it was at that

01:01:28.620 point either. But I enjoyed what you were talking about there. I was just enthralled by that. So I

01:01:33.740 forgot too. Sometimes I get off into these things. I don't know where I get lost in the fourth and I

01:01:38.360 had to get my way back. But anyway. I do like that you were talking earlier about the win-win

01:01:42.740 versus win-lose scenarios because we do hear in the popular narrative is that create win-win

01:01:48.160 scenarios. It's like, well, I'm competing for that job. So I don't want that individual to win. I want

01:01:54.160 to win. And again, I think this is a more realistic approach so that we can still operate within the

01:02:00.860 confines of our own moral code. I think that's important, but do it in a way that's at least

01:02:08.060 open to and aware of the possibility that others are operating outside of the code you set for yourself.

01:02:14.240 Yeah. I mean, I'm not advocating that we become like Putin or that we fight like he does. No,

01:02:21.880 not at all. That would actually give him a victory because then we're like lowering ourselves to his

01:02:27.340 level. It's good that you have values. It's good that you're a decent person. These are laudable

01:02:32.480 qualities that you don't want to hurt people, that you want to cooperate, that you want to work as a

01:02:36.980 team, that you're able to let go of your ego and work together on a project. These are values I

01:02:43.820 as well. My only point is there are other people not operating by those, the rules of that game,

01:02:51.860 right? And a lot of the mayhem and trouble in life comes from people like that. And that's where I

01:02:58.520 wrote the 48 Laws of Power from. It came from a place like that, where I grew up basically a kind

01:03:03.580 of idealistic young man who thought everyone's we're here in a job to get great things done together.

01:03:09.680 And I was smacked in the face by reality where there were people out there who didn't give a

01:03:14.940 damn about getting things done. They just wanted to gratify their ego and grab power. And it hurt me.

01:03:21.160 I suffered deeply from my naivete. So I want us all to keep our great values, our pro-social values.

01:03:30.400 I just want us to be aware there are other people not playing by those rules. And also to be aware that

01:03:35.940 if we want to accomplish anything, if we want to create a better world, if we want to have a

01:03:40.740 movement that changes things, that makes people more aware or whatever, we have to be strategic.

01:03:46.480 We can't just go out and say all the wonderful things we believe in. We have to actually step

01:03:52.300 back and think and plot a course. And sometimes we need to manipulate. So I just want to take the guilt

01:03:58.220 out of that. But it doesn't mean that I'm saying we're all nasty. We all have to become nasty. I hope

01:04:04.920 people don't misunderstand me on that level. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. I think that is an

01:04:09.660 important distinction. You alluded earlier to a new book. Can you disclose or share any of that with us

01:04:16.100 today? It's kind of a hard book to describe. It's sort of going off in a new direction. It's a little

01:04:24.580 bit. It's, it's not quite such a, it's not a book about power manipulation, really, or anything like

01:04:30.600 that. It's a book about what I call the sublime. And in the laws of human nature, my last chapter

01:04:36.440 is about directly that. And then I had a chapter in the 50th law of the book I did with 50 cent about

01:04:42.900 that book. And basically, the chapter is, I'm trying to say that, by nature, we humans live in a world

01:04:52.760 that's kind of like a circle that circumscribes us. We have certain codes and conventions that we all

01:04:58.820 have to abide by. These are things that we have to form behavior that we have to adhere to, or to be

01:05:06.260 considered polite and civilized. But it's not just our behavior, it's our ideas. Our thoughts have to be

01:05:11.740 within that circle. We have certain ideas and values that come from our culture, etc. And just outside of

01:05:18.860 that circle, lies the realm of what I call the sublime. Exploring what is taboo, or exploring where

01:05:27.580 other people don't go, or taking thoughts that no one has ever thought before, and traveling beyond the

01:05:33.720 boundaries of where we're supposed to be. It's an exciting, enervating, it makes you youthful again.

01:05:41.520 I didn't mean the word enervating. It excites you, it enlivens you, right? It opens you up to life.

01:05:49.980 And that's the ultimate circle thing that creates that circle is death itself. That's the ultimate

01:05:55.440 limit. And so the word sublime means up to the threshold of a door. And so you're moving up to

01:06:02.640 the threshold of death itself. And you're looking what might be beyond it, what actually transcends you,

01:06:08.580 what actually it means to be dead, to carry your own mortality within you. And so I ally it with the

01:06:16.740 feeling of death itself. And it is a book that I intended to write. So I have all kinds of experiences

01:06:24.180 that I consider that way. Our relationship to the universe, our relationship to life,

01:06:30.300 our relationship to history, to animals, to our own brains. These are all insanely sublime things.

01:06:37.160 And I'm very fascinated by discoveries in science that I think are just mind-blowing. And I think

01:06:44.500 people need to be more aware of, like how we were when we were children, how discoveries in science

01:06:49.680 are like, whoa, that's true. They took a photograph of a black hole. They can now describe what it might be

01:06:55.800 like to fall into a black hole. These are things that are so beyond what we normally can process that

01:07:02.200 they create a certain emotional resonance in them. But anyway, I've been meaning to write the book 15

01:07:08.120 years ago or so. And then I got distracted by the book with 50 Cent. And then I got distracted by

01:07:14.860 mastery. And now I'm going back to it. Basically, I came this close to dying myself a little over two

01:07:22.320 years ago. I had a stroke, pretty severe stroke. I was in a coma. I was driving my car at the time.

01:07:28.740 My wife hadn't been there. I would have been in an accident. I would have not. I would have had

01:07:33.880 either be dead or I'd have severe brain damage. I came this close to dying. So I wrote about that

01:07:42.780 in the last chapter of the laws of human nature, two months before I had my stroke. And then suddenly

01:07:48.780 it became my reality, right? And so now I've had to deal with it on a personal level. And so it's not

01:07:56.380 just an intellectual exercise, as it might have been 15 years ago. It's a very real visceral

01:08:01.800 exercise for me. Because I know what it means to see through that door, to open the door and see

01:08:08.540 the other side of death. Because I felt it in me. And I still carry that sensation in me every day of

01:08:14.540 my life. You know, so it's opened me up to the fact that, wow, in California, the sky is blue,

01:08:21.560 their birds are chirping, their leaves on the trees, and I'm alive to see it. That's insane.

01:08:27.980 Insane, the world that we live in. It's actually incredibly sublime and awesome. We just go around

01:08:33.460 immersed in social media and so on. We're not looking at how incredibly wondrous this world is

01:08:40.520 that we live around. I'm not coming off as too Pollyannish, but it's a very sincere book in that sense.

01:08:45.800 Well, I think it sounds, based on your description, different than what you've written in the past.

01:08:50.700 I'm very anxious to get my hands on it and have a read.

01:08:53.200 Yeah, I hope I'm going to disappoint some people. I'm going to find some new readers.

01:08:56.960 I'm going to disappoint a few others.

01:08:58.640 Well, regardless of what you put out there, there's always going to be people who are going

01:09:02.360 to be disappointed. So we know we don't have to worry about that.

01:09:05.140 I know, exactly. Particularly in this world, yeah.

01:09:08.080 Absolutely.

01:09:08.480 I don't think about that. I think about what is right for me in the moment and what I think the

01:09:13.220 culture wants. Yeah. And also, for myself anyways, is what do I think is going to impact

01:09:20.900 people positively? And what is a message that I can personally share that I'm qualified to share

01:09:25.580 that will help people in their own way and on their own journey? That's an important thing for me too.

01:09:32.160 Yeah. You have to think that way. Otherwise, you get kind of soulless. If you're only thinking about

01:09:38.900 money and pleasing people, you lose your soul. So I never think about those things. I think about

01:09:43.980 what I want, what I think people need.

01:09:46.580 Yeah. Yeah. Well, Robert, I appreciate you. Your work has been deeply impactful in my life. It's

01:09:52.020 helped me to understand myself better and to understand other people better, which makes me,

01:09:57.480 well, frankly, it just makes me more successful on whatever front I'm dealing with. And so I do

01:10:01.500 appreciate you taking some time and joining us and sharing some of your wisdom with us.

01:10:04.620 Well, thank you very much. It was a very intelligent discussion. I really appreciate

01:10:08.240 it. I don't get enough of them. So it was a great interview. I enjoyed it.

01:10:11.920 Thanks, Robert.

01:10:14.000 Gentlemen, I hope you enjoyed the conversation with Robert Green and myself. If you haven't read his

01:10:18.280 books, some of the books that I had alluded to earlier, the 48 laws of power, mastery, the laws of

01:10:23.440 human nature, the art of seduction. And of course he's got others. I would definitely recommend that you

01:10:27.840 do. Remember, this is somewhat controversial because people think that we're using this information to

01:10:34.620 manipulate others. And we talked a little bit about the concept of manipulation. I choose to use the

01:10:40.480 word influence and that's really what it is. We want to do. We want to influence others to change

01:10:46.320 their patterns and their behaviors and the way that they approach life so they can produce what it is

01:10:50.420 they want. And we can get what it is that we want. So I believe that if you come from it, from the

01:10:55.700 right perspective, with the right mindset, you can use what Robert teaches to produce again, positive and

01:11:02.700 effective outcomes for the people that you care most about. So hit us up on Instagram, Twitter,

01:11:07.800 Facebook, wherever you're doing the social media thing. Make sure you support the store if you can

01:11:12.320 and have a desire to do that at store.orderofman.com. And then also subscribe. I've just got a fascinating,

01:11:18.560 fascinating lineup of men who are banding with us, who are coming on the podcast. And I don't want you

01:11:23.800 to miss any of these conversations because they're powerful. Even if you just pull one or two or five

01:11:29.480 things out of the conversations that we're having, uh, I believe it has the ability and power to

01:11:34.620 drastically alter your life for the better. So let Robert know what you thought about the

01:11:39.220 conversation. Let me know what you thought about the conversation. Uh, take a screenshot like you've

01:11:43.360 been doing in the past, posted on Facebook and Instagram and all the places. And that means a lot

01:11:48.540 to me. And of course it will help your fellow man. All right, guys, we'll be back tomorrow for my

01:11:53.500 conversation with Mr. Kip Sorensen and we'll be fielding your questions throughout the week.

01:11:59.760 So until then, go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

01:12:04.480 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

01:12:08.960 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - March 02, 2021

ROBERT GREENE ｜ The Laws of Power and Human Nature

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