Order of Man - ROBIN DREEKE ｜ Forging Unbreakable Alliances

00:00:00.000 We all know how crucial it is to build alliances in our lives, and yet most men aren't real deliberate and intentional about how they do it.

00:00:07.280 Think about it. Most of your connections are a product of default proximity, not rational design.

00:00:12.840 Your neighbor, your brother, that guy who works down the hall from you, etc.

00:00:17.660 So how do you form and nurture these strategic relationships?

00:00:21.520 Robin Dreek joins me today to share his knowledge as a former FBI behavioral analyst and spy recruiter.

00:00:27.320 We discussed the power of non-judgmental curiosity, the four keys of effective communication, how to analyze a person's behaviors and motives quickly,

00:00:36.440 including an analysis of the positive and negative characteristics of both Kamala Harris and Donald Trump,

00:00:42.060 how to strategize trust with others, and why some men can read people well while others can't.

00:00:47.420 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:53.180 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:57.900 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:02.920 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become.

00:01:07.180 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:12.120 Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Men podcast. My name is Ryan Mickler. I am glad you're here.

00:01:18.620 We are fast approaching 10 years, in March of next year or so. What's that?

00:01:23.080 Six months away. We're going to be at our 10-year anniversary, and I just want to thank you for joining me and listening to this

00:01:30.100 and applying this information with your family and friends and colleagues and coworkers

00:01:33.700 and making this thing a success and living your lives as men.

00:01:37.560 I've got a good conversation lined up with a former podcast guest and former FBI behavioral analysis.

00:01:43.960 His name is Robin Dreek. We get into the power of forging unbreakable alliances.

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00:02:43.740 Let me introduce you to my guest. His name is Robin Dreek.

00:02:46.360 As I said earlier, a former behavioral analysis for the FBI and also a – I was going to say former Marine,

00:02:52.220 but once a Marine, always a Marine.

00:02:53.880 He spent more than two decades recruiting Russian spies as U.S. assets and navigating the internal politics of the Bureau.

00:03:03.840 He's written four books. They are It's Not All About Me, The Code of Trust, Sizing People Up,

00:03:10.520 and his newest book, Unbreakable Alliances.

00:03:13.260 And in it, he teaches how to build trust, communicate with impact, inspire others through stories and narratives,

00:03:19.340 and how to resolve personal and professional conflict.

00:03:22.020 Yeah, so Ryan, it was funny. We were just talking about the wonders of technology today compared to the way they were not even that long ago.

00:03:31.360 I was just sharing with you, I got a piece of the glass from the World Trade Center right here actually because I was in New York during 9-11.

00:03:39.000 And even back then, not that long ago, people often ask me, how did you deal with that?

00:03:45.820 Like logistically, not just deal with watching eight people jump from the North Tower before the South Tower was even hit because my office was like five blocks away.

00:03:54.740 But we didn't have cell phones on my squad.

00:03:58.060 We still had beepers.

00:03:59.540 And so just communication.

00:04:00.980 Can you imagine getting leads and trying to conduct interviews and do things with people prior to even the technology to be able to communicate effectively?

00:04:10.960 Yeah, well, I even think about it on a micro level with my kids, you know, if they – my older kids anyways, my two oldest have cell phones.

00:04:19.420 And I'm thinking, well, I want them to check in.

00:04:22.000 I want them to tell me what's going on, where they're at, what time they're going to be home.

00:04:25.620 And then I thought as I was a kid, I didn't have any of that.

00:04:29.120 My mom would call around the neighborhood or call houses or call my friends' houses and say, hey, is Ryan over there?

00:04:34.000 And I just knew it would be home by dark.

00:04:35.880 So it is interesting.

00:04:36.860 But we also live in different times too.

00:04:38.380 Yeah, you know, but the need for that connection – it's a nice bridge.

00:04:42.240 The need for the connection is still there.

00:04:43.700 So my son went to the Naval Academy.

00:04:45.280 I went to the Naval Academy.

00:04:46.860 Just even the way – and my son is a Marine Corps officer right now.

00:04:49.620 And just the way they pass information now compared to what it was like when I was in the Marine Corps.

00:04:54.620 You know, we used to – when we were standing duty or what was called mate of the deck, you know, we would get a phone call on a hardwired phone.

00:05:02.500 And look at me doing this.

00:05:04.200 Write it down on a piece of paper.

00:05:06.060 At least not doing this.

00:05:06.960 Yeah, right.

00:05:07.460 Oh, yeah.

00:05:08.740 You know, and then rolling down windows like this.

00:05:10.960 That's right.

00:05:12.060 You know, we'd write it down on a sticky note or a piece of paper and then hand walk it to someone's room, leave it on their desk, and hope that someone got it and could get the message that they needed.

00:05:22.720 We had a chalkboard.

00:05:23.980 We'd write messages on for the entire company.

00:05:28.460 You know, so all these things is how we dealt with it.

00:05:30.420 It was interesting.

00:05:31.300 Yeah, and I think the tools that we have are only as good as our capability in using them.

00:05:36.520 You know, I see so many people, for example, bag on social media, and I've done it too, and it has its fair share of critique and criticism.

00:05:43.480 But also, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation.

00:05:46.700 People wouldn't be listening to this podcast without the power of social media.

00:05:49.660 So it's interesting when people complain about something they use so frequently and has made their lives that much better.

00:05:55.680 Yeah, I'm not a big believer in bashing anything.

00:06:00.440 Everything in life is just another tool, you know, and can you keep balance between the tool and what the actual need of the tool is?

00:06:08.680 And again, with us as a human being and human species, we require deep-rooted connections, and the best connections we have that give us the things that we value, that we can resonate with, is human contact.

00:06:22.880 I mean, we're not going to undo, you know, hundreds of thousands of years of evolution in a small time span of time saying that, hey, technology can replace all that or give us just as much, you know, with that connectivity.

00:06:36.900 No, it can't.

00:06:37.780 It can be a small Band-Aid, but Band-Aids fall off, and so we still need that power of human touch and connection.

00:06:44.540 Why do you think it is that so many people struggle with making those connections?

00:06:48.280 Because that's one thing I've found.

00:06:49.940 I don't – I used to struggle with this personally, but it just was because I didn't put myself out there and didn't feel like it was important.

00:06:57.040 But when I started in my financial planning career, I realized I need a network.

00:07:00.880 I need to ask for referrals.

00:07:02.300 I need to be a likable person, a credible person, so I can build out a network and build my business, and that translated over to what we're doing now.

00:07:09.300 So I haven't struggled for a long time with this.

00:07:12.540 I realize the importance, but I think a lot of men in particular really do struggle with making powerful strategic connections.

00:07:20.700 Yeah, it's a great question that a lot of people don't ask, especially men don't ask.

00:07:25.220 We are hard-pressed – and I know you've covered this on your show before – we are hard-pressed as men to have the humility to say we need help or the hard-pressed to have the humility to say we need someone else in our life or an ally in our life because we are so coded to want to provide, to be of service to others that we oftentimes don't know that in order to be of service to others, we need to have connections with others.

00:07:49.800 We need – and powerful connections.

00:07:52.360 You know, I'm what's considered a first-generational professional.

00:07:55.800 I just learned this term the other day.

00:07:57.240 I always just thought because of how I grew up having to heat my house all by wood that I was just gritty, resilient, and self-reliant because my parents didn't have any money.

00:08:04.880 And that's part of it, but also part of it was I didn't have teachers, mentors, and guides in my life showing me the path to get in the Naval Academy, to be a productive Marine Corps officer, to be a productive professional in a professional work environment

00:08:18.440 that was so far out of the norm for what my family was.

00:08:21.980 I just didn't come from a blue-collar family.

00:08:23.840 Blue-collar was elevated for my family.

00:08:26.800 You know, I'm not just first generation to go to college.

00:08:29.960 My grandparents didn't even graduate from high school on either side.

00:08:33.540 So it was like really, really hard-pressed where I grew up.

00:08:37.340 But it all came down to the fact that I was able to do these things and move into running the behavioral analysis program for the FBI and write books and all this.

00:08:46.380 And because I had people, thank God, inserted themselves into my life and became those trusted allies, became those people that I had relationships with, that became part of the whole,

00:08:57.680 that I started realizing much later in life to my own chagrin was that without these great powerful allies in life, you really can't do anything.

00:09:07.120 One of the – I have so many great books that I'm humbled by when I read them.

00:09:11.060 One of them was The Courage to be Disliked.

00:09:13.420 And the great thing about that book, there's a simple quote in there I love.

00:09:17.220 All problems are interpersonal problems.

00:09:20.700 And so if you face any challenge in life, anything, I guarantee you most of the time, if not all the time, you don't have the solution by yourself.

00:09:30.500 It's going to require a thought, an idea, a collaboration, or a partnership with someone to move through that challenge.

00:09:37.500 I don't even call things problems.

00:09:38.780 There are no problems.

00:09:39.420 There's just challenges.

00:09:40.160 Every day is faced with challenges.

00:09:41.220 And so when you can move through that challenge, it only happens with a great, healthy relationship.

00:09:46.180 So that really emphasizes the power and importance of us as a species because, again, we would not have come to where we are as a species, one, without the power of collaboration.

00:09:55.300 And we couldn't collaborate without, as the great book Sapien says, without the ability to tell stories about each other and gossip.

00:10:04.000 Yeah, that is interesting.

00:10:06.500 That gossip, you kind of almost wonder sometimes, is that a useful tool?

00:10:09.800 And it is because you're informing your community and you're learning about other people and who to stay away from and who to cling to and all these other things that you can learn through people just whispering and talking about each other.

00:10:21.440 You do have to be careful, though, because it gets deceitful and conniving.

00:10:25.520 And there's obviously self-interest in mistreating people or abusing relationships or manipulating others.

00:10:35.320 So you do have to be aware of that.

00:10:37.300 Yeah, it's when insecurities flare up.

00:10:39.180 Another great book, Body Keeps a Score, just talks about we all face traumas growing up.

00:10:44.340 But, you know, it's like a sine wave, some lesser, some more.

00:10:48.120 But everyone faces insecurities when they're younger that we carry with us for the rest of our lives.

00:10:53.680 I always say we're born pretty perfect.

00:10:55.900 The world messes us up for about five to 20 years.

00:10:58.440 Then we spend the rest of our lives overcoming those things that mess us up.

00:11:02.060 And generally those things are-

00:11:02.840 That's a good way to look at it.

00:11:03.800 Yeah, our things are insecurities.

00:11:05.180 You know, and so very rarely, if ever, is someone doing something to you, they're just being who they are.

00:11:11.920 They're battling for resources, and as they're battling for resources, because, again, human beings are exceptionally predictable.

00:11:19.520 We're always going to act in our own best interests in terms of safety, security, and prosperity from our own optic.

00:11:25.220 All you have to do is figure out what the other person thinks that is from their perspective, which is deep, active empathy, and you'll understand what they're going to do.

00:11:33.420 And then if you now provide resources in terms of them being successful and you have trust, you're going to have a great relationship.

00:11:40.020 Again, the greatest advice I could have given my 20-year-old self that I know now that I didn't know then is instead of trying to make myself look good all the time and me, me, me, me, me, was what can I do to make everyone's life around me just a little bit easier, a little bit better?

00:11:56.000 Because when you have that outward focus, who doesn't want to be inspired to reciprocate that?

00:12:02.400 Again, when you do so without an agenda or without an ask, that's when you have those deep relationships.

00:12:07.800 And you get that – as Jack O'Lincoln, Leif Babin talk about extreme ownership and dichotomy of leadership, you talk about trust credits.

00:12:15.380 You have – your reservoir is full, so if you one day have a big ask, of course, there's never even a second guess on it.

00:12:21.980 So that's how we do these things, and it's why it's so important.

00:12:26.380 I think that a lot of people probably do have connections.

00:12:29.220 I don't think it's a lack of connections.

00:12:30.580 People are interacting with others all the time, whether it's their kids or their spouse, a neighbor, community member, somebody who works down the office from them, or a cousin or a grandfather.

00:12:44.440 We're interacting with people all the time, but what I've found to be the biggest challenge for a lot of people is not that they're not interacting, but they're not doing it by design.

00:12:52.160 They just kind of fall into these default relationships.

00:12:54.880 Whether they serve them or not is completely irrelevant in a lot of people's minds.

00:12:58.240 It's like, what do you mean?

00:12:59.600 I have my friend Joe, and I have Bill who works down the office from me.

00:13:04.040 Those are my friends.

00:13:05.000 But are they really helpful, and are those the kind of friends that want to help you and move all of you guys in the right direction?

00:13:12.520 It's a great point.

00:13:15.060 A lot of times, and I don't mean it in a way that anyone's degrading anyone by this thought process because no one's consciously thinking these things, but when we're engaging the world, we have lots of contacts.

00:13:27.300 We have lots of associates in order to fix our things that we're working on in life.

00:13:32.320 But a lot of times what we're doing is we're regarding people as a tool.

00:13:37.060 Screwdriver, wrench, I need a certain wrench to do this.

00:13:39.440 I need a certain screwdriver to do this.

00:13:41.020 But it's less personal because we're missing an element of understanding them at a deeper level.

00:13:48.300 And if you take like an extra 30 seconds to pay attention to – not even 30 seconds most of the time, even less – to pay attention to this key facet.

00:13:58.820 I have these things called the keys to communication.

00:14:00.980 There's one that is really critical in this instance is discovering and understanding the challenges, priorities, pain points, and friction points of those around you.

00:14:09.140 So a lot of times – I mean think about this.

00:14:11.560 Think about those people that you actually are associated with in your life, that you have connections with, that you interact with, that are problem solvers at the surface level, maybe even a little bit deeper.

00:14:20.620 And likewise, you are for them.

00:14:21.800 They'll call on you to solve these things.

00:14:23.820 How many of those supposed associates of connections do you actually understand at a deeper level, slightly below the surface, what those challenges, priority points, and friction points are in their lives?

00:14:34.800 Have you taken time to really – because people leak it all the time.

00:14:37.760 It's called leakage.

00:14:38.640 Leakage comes out the mouth.

00:14:40.400 A lot of times we blow by that leakage when someone's sharing what's going on in their lives, what kind of challenge you're dealing with today, what happened last night, just anything like that.

00:14:50.700 When you pay attention to those things, you're demonstrating a few things.

00:14:53.340 You're being deeply present for them, and you're hearing their words without trying to respond with your own narrative of what's going on in your life.

00:15:01.140 So you can really, really pay attention because then when you hear those things that are going on in your life, it gives you the greatest opportunity ever.

00:15:08.060 What – I use that word what, not why, but what because it makes us be very specific.

00:15:13.660 What specifically can you do if it ever comes up again that you can be a proactive resource in their lives to help them overcome those things?

00:15:21.560 And even if not something they're overcoming a challenge or something, the next time you get together with them, will you do the most important thing when you start the next conversation is ask them about what they shared last time first.

00:15:33.080 I do this at the gym every day, so I swim every morning.

00:15:36.180 It's part of what I do for mental health is movement, and I swim every morning.

00:15:40.300 I have very loose associations in the pool, yet I know one of the guys I swim with in there.

00:15:46.880 I know his first name.

00:15:47.880 I know he's a university professor here.

00:15:50.000 I know the subjects he teaches.

00:15:51.420 I know he's got four kids, and one of his kids he teaches himself in college.

00:15:55.960 I know at a deeper level, and this is someone I literally interact with for 30 seconds before I start my laps and as he's starting his.

00:16:04.880 Yeah, I mean it's powerful when you're intentional about it.

00:16:07.260 I'm curious why you use the term alliance because the book is called Unbreakable Alliances, and we hear network or we hear band of brothers or we hear other terms.

00:16:16.540 But why did you choose to use the word alliance?

00:16:19.900 Alliances, it just gives this connotation and feeling of allies.

00:16:24.240 Allies are with you side by side, and it's a balanced equation to me.

00:16:28.720 When you say an ally, allies are balanced.

00:16:30.920 For me, if you were going to have healthy things in life, everything – I keep referring, I know, a few times now to Jocko with Lincoln, Leif Babin.

00:16:39.420 I love dichotomy of leadership so much because it really highlighted to me that everything in life is really a dichotomy because dichotomy – we can't experience really great moments unless we've had really crappy ones because otherwise it's just a moment.

00:16:53.980 We can't experience success unless we've experienced failure.

00:16:58.460 We can't experience a great moment with our children unless we've had some challenging moments with our children.

00:17:02.980 It gives us a sense of value.

00:17:04.960 And so in order to have a healthy outlook on life, everything must be in balance.

00:17:09.580 Relationships must be in balance.

00:17:11.460 If someone is giving more than the other is giving, that's going to be a relationship out of balance, and we measure that in balance by negative emotions, resentment, anger, all those negative emotions come up, show there's something out of balance.

00:17:25.520 And so for me, the word ally is indicative of a balanced relationship where everyone is there for each other, willing to be a proactive resource for each other.

00:17:35.360 And now granted, it might never come to be.

00:17:38.280 There might be a lopsided relationship where someone is giving, giving, giving, giving because of their title, their position, their resources they have.

00:17:44.640 But as long as the other person demonstrates the most important thing in the world ever is that they value that and they just respond with deep gratitude.

00:17:54.880 Matter of fact, I tried – if I haven't done it with you yet, Ryan, I probably will after this.

00:17:59.420 I always respond to all my emails with my deepest gratitude because no one has to do anything for you.

00:18:04.840 So when you demonstrate that deep gratitude and you demonstrate how you value and recognize the effort they're taking, that in a large way is reciprocity and demonstrating there is a balance there because it's recognized that it's out of balance.

00:18:17.500 Yeah.

00:18:18.360 Well, and finding those people who are willing to reciprocate, right?

00:18:21.500 Because not everybody is, and even if they are, they may not reciprocate in a way that you appreciate.

00:18:26.200 I think about, for example, in romantic relationships, the five love languages.

00:18:29.660 If I'm a physical affection person and I'm with somebody who is not and they're not interested in that side of the relationship or expressing love that way, that's not really a relationship I'm interested in being in because now my needs aren't being met.

00:18:45.280 But what I have found is that a lot of people get jaded because they take the advice of what you're saying where it's give, give, give, add value, improve people's lives, and then they have one relationship or a handful of relationships that don't reciprocate.

00:18:59.740 And so they think all relationships are like that.

00:19:02.780 For me, it's been a matter of playing the law of large numbers.

00:19:07.300 I'm willing to reciprocate knowing that a percentage of people never will in return.

00:19:12.060 Or excuse me, I'm willing to add value to relationship knowing a percentage of people will not reciprocate because I know the people who do will more than make up for the investment and energy of my time and attention.

00:19:24.020 Yeah, and I mean you put a great point there too because some people are going to be energy vampires and they're just going to suck it all right at you, which it's really funny.

00:19:35.960 It's really fine though, and what I mean by that is some people just have more to give.

00:19:41.400 Some people have a great reservoir of energy to give others, and it doesn't bother them whatsoever, but someone else's can be a lot lower, and so they might sit in judgment and say, hey, you're giving too much of this person.

00:19:52.020 But maybe not to me because as long as it doesn't start flaring up the negative emotions, it's okay because what happens is when the negative emotions start creeping in, that means the relationship is turning unhealthy.

00:20:09.360 And when it comes to – and you gave a great example of the love languages.

00:20:12.320 If you happen to be someone who needs physical affection and the other person doesn't, part of this – I don't want to give the impression that this is all about mushy-gushy encounters and avoidance.

00:20:23.580 It's not.

00:20:24.060 This is about very pragmatic discussions and communication because if someone's not giving you what your needs are and it's starting to unbalance that equation, communicate it.

00:20:34.040 Say, listen, here's – I've recognized X, Y, and Z.

00:20:38.500 I've done all I could to do this.

00:20:40.380 Please let me know.

00:20:41.200 It's my fault if I'm not providing for you the things that you need.

00:20:44.140 I'm curious.

00:20:44.820 Are you interested in what I'm interested in and what I need to get out of the relationship?

00:20:49.080 Again, you're not making it about yourself.

00:20:50.700 You're asking them their opinion because we have these four golden keys of communication to make sure that when we're communicating the things and ideas that we want to, we need to keep the focus on them.

00:21:00.360 And it's a very big challenge that a lot of us has because of our ego.

00:21:03.900 But if you do this when you're communicating, one, you seek the thoughts and opinions of others instead of sharing your own.

00:21:09.200 And in this case, instead of telling them here's what my needs are, you can ask them a question.

00:21:13.640 Are you curious about what my needs are?

00:21:16.340 And then the second is talk in terms of their challenges, priorities, and pain points instead of pontificating about yours.

00:21:22.960 Three, this is the big one, nonjudgmental act of curiosity.

00:21:27.080 The big word there being nonjudgmental.

00:21:30.400 If someone is sharing thoughts, ideas, concerns that are important to them, the worst thing you do in the world for building an ally or at least having a productive conversation is to shut them down.

00:21:41.680 Granted, it doesn't mean you have to agree with them.

00:21:43.520 It means you're seeking to understand their context because believe it or not, I mean, everyone ask yourself this rhetorical question right now.

00:21:50.580 Do a thought experiment.

00:21:51.320 Ask yourself, everything that you think and you tell the world and share with the world, whether it be in writing, email, or just a great conversation, you've probably given it a lot of thought, correct?

00:22:02.520 Sure.

00:22:03.440 So give someone else the same respect.

00:22:05.700 If it's coming out of their mouth, they probably gave it a lot of thought.

00:22:08.860 And if you shut down what they're thinking, good luck on ever having more of a conversation.

00:22:15.180 It doesn't mean you agree.

00:22:16.420 It means you seek to understand how they came up with that, where are they taking information from.

00:22:20.360 You know, Robert Greene's great book, Laws of Human Nature, says that as human beings, we constantly consume information that validates our own self-opinion.

00:22:29.480 You know, Nelson Mandela wrote in 1963, as he's still locked in prison and he's just getting out, that he – and talk about media even back in 1963.

00:22:40.520 That's why we remove it by time.

00:22:41.920 It's great.

00:22:42.280 He goes, news media exists to provide information that only services their clients.

00:22:47.760 Of course.

00:22:50.240 So we consume information that validates our own self-opinion.

00:22:53.460 And then the final thing of the four is to be empowering of choice.

00:22:57.400 Give people choices because when you're doing these four things, the entire shift goes from you to them.

00:23:01.780 And it's about – you can still package what it is you want to have said, what you want to do, but you can shift the focus from what you want to ask them what they think about what you want.

00:23:11.320 So, you know, just a little shift.

00:23:13.820 Piece of cake.

00:23:15.360 Yeah.

00:23:15.680 Oh, it's easy.

00:23:16.480 It's easy.

00:23:16.920 Everybody should have this down and know – you know, listen to this hour-long podcast and you'll be a master in communication and building alliances.

00:23:22.660 Oh, you need them reps.

00:23:24.840 That's right. 0.99

00:23:25.540 Well, I am glad too though that you said that where you're talking about that we seek information to validate our own opinion because as you were saying about listening to other people's ideas, in my mind immediately I was like, well, some people are dumb and some ideas are dumb.

00:23:39.380 But that might be validated through my own lens and my own filter of information that I'm looking at that, especially when we're in a political climate like we are right now.

00:23:50.240 Yeah. 0.99

00:23:50.580 But the reality is some people are dumb and some ideas are dumb and we ought to bring those things to light so we can expose them for the lunacy that they are. 0.99

00:23:58.340 It would be good, wouldn't it? 0.99

00:24:00.260 Oh, my goodness.

00:24:00.980 But those people themselves will never see what they're saying as lunacy. 1.00

00:24:05.220 Well, they don't know they're dumb. 0.99

00:24:06.600 And I might be one of those guys. 0.99

00:24:07.780 I don't know.

00:24:08.560 Well, it's – you know, that's why I love reading history.

00:24:13.320 So my – gosh, my parents will always say to me, oh, what's going to happen next week during the election?

00:24:19.300 Oh, my God.

00:24:19.820 I said, nothing.

00:24:21.160 I said, what do you mean nothing?

00:24:22.220 What if so-and-so gets elected?

00:24:23.740 I said, doesn't matter.

00:24:25.260 I mean it matters.

00:24:26.460 You might think it matters.

00:24:27.600 But when you take it in historical context, I read a lot of historical history.

00:24:33.120 Remember, I just got done reading Sir Francis Drake and Queen Elizabeth and the building of an empire.

00:24:41.040 1500s, right?

00:24:42.000 England.

00:24:42.280 And James Cook, sailing, you know, circumnavigating the world three times.

00:24:47.580 And you look at the evolution of our societies and you look at the politics and you look at all – even our own country.

00:24:54.480 You know, you look at the time period of a civil war.

00:24:56.560 I read Ulysses S. Grant's biography and then Stonewall Jackson's biography and then Empire of the Rising Sun, which is all about the Comanche at the same time period.

00:25:04.060 You keep looking through history, and I guarantee you, there are much, much worse times in history, and A survived it too.

00:25:14.500 So I'm a big believer in whatever system comes to be, you can hope for it to be the one that you want.

00:25:21.640 But regardless, you will survive it.

00:25:24.000 I guarantee it.

00:25:25.160 I am a little – I'm going to push back on that a little bit because I am hesitant when we take that mentality because I think the benefit of taking that mentality is it keeps the control in your own purview.

00:25:39.420 It's like I'm going to focus on the things I can control.

00:25:42.220 But also there are pivotal moments throughout history.

00:25:44.820 You know, I think of, for example, Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon and starting the Roman Civil War.

00:25:50.340 It's like, okay, that was a very political, military action that changed the tide of millions of people over the course of history.

00:26:01.360 So I think there are pivotal moments.

00:26:03.300 How do you find the balance of focusing on what you can control but also being informed and being educated and impacting culture in a positive way, et cetera?

00:26:13.540 That is also another great point.

00:26:14.840 And you're right, 100%.

00:26:16.300 That mentality I have keeps me staying positive because the most important thing, if you're going to solve problems, you have to stay positive.

00:26:25.580 You have to have humility.

00:26:26.660 You have to stay positive.

00:26:27.460 And you have to take action.

00:26:28.760 At the same time, I have that mentality so I don't sit here and stress and fret what any outcome will be.

00:26:35.580 I also have a very preferred outcome because I don't – I see definite actions if something – if someone's elected – and I'm a behaviorist.

00:26:45.240 I stay neutral as best I can.

00:26:47.220 Sure, yeah.

00:26:47.780 It's just behavior at this point.

00:26:49.200 It's like looking under the hood of a car and – yeah.

00:26:51.420 But at the same time, though, I see potential chaos erupting if one wins over another.

00:26:58.140 There's no doubt.

00:26:58.900 It's not like I think, hey, it will be all perfect no matter what.

00:27:01.540 No, I think there's huge implications for who will come about.

00:27:04.520 There's no doubt in my mind.

00:27:06.720 I take a larger perspective in moments when the outcome doesn't go the way I think is prudent for nation states.

00:27:17.240 And I'll say nation states because, yeah, nation states are affected hugely by types of elections like this.

00:27:23.960 And so when you can – I do this with my kids all the time.

00:27:29.080 Again, if you gave it your all, you threw everything you had on the table, and whatever outcome happens, it happens.

00:27:35.280 And then from that point on, you have to work whatever system has presented you for the safety, security, and prosperity for yourself and those you care about.

00:27:41.880 And so I take that larger view of doing all I can, throwing my cards on the table, throwing all the effort on the table to do what I think will be in the best interest of humanity and preventing chaos.

00:27:52.260 At the same time, though, in order to stay positive and problem-solve whatever faces me and those people in my life, my circle of influence, that's how I maintain positivity, knowing that no matter what happens, we as a species will survive.

00:28:05.740 Nation states is interesting.

00:28:08.760 I actually looked this up too because I was always curious about this.

00:28:12.440 Countries and nation states can survive longer periods of time, much longer periods of time than the actual forms of government do.

00:28:20.220 Those are the things that have been in flux over time more than anything.

00:28:23.660 So maintaining – I mean just think about – you mentioned Julius Caesar and Roman Empire.

00:28:27.880 Roman Empire lasted a long time.

00:28:29.420 The forms of government shifted a lot throughout that time period.

00:28:32.160 Right, right.

00:28:33.660 Yeah, that makes sense, and I think it's hard for people to acknowledge and recognize that our form of government or our way of life may change over – not may, it will change over time too.

00:28:42.760 It's just a matter of when and how, not if that will happen.

00:28:46.700 Are – do you – speaking of the politics conversation, are there conversations that should be off limits or you should at least to some degree be aware of how you approach those things?

00:28:58.480 Obviously, the perfect examples are politics, religion, very polarizing issues, and secondary to that, when and how do you start bringing that into the relationships that you have, whether it's platonic or romantic or professional?

00:29:16.740 Yeah, it's a touchy area.

00:29:18.060 There is no doubt.

00:29:18.720 Now, the way I – first of all, when it comes to politics, religion, all these things, I tend to view them as a small part of the whole of the individual I'm talking to because I don't want to – me personally, I will not ruin a healthy relationship with someone because of a small part of how they're thinking.

00:29:38.580 I do this because literally the small part.

00:29:40.420 I mean so what someone politically thinks really has manifested itself in the last couple of years, really, because before this, nobody's literally thinking nearly as much about this, right?

00:29:49.900 So you take this last little thing right here, put that aside if it's positive or negative, and I'll tend – I will always try to focus on all these other things over here first.

00:29:59.580 And then the other thing I'm assessing too about the types of conversations I can have with someone is I'm going into is someone emotional about this or are they pragmatic about it because the emotional brain, which media feeds into the emotional brain because when people have an emotional response to something, they're going to tune in because when they tune in, it's going to validate their own self-emotional opinion, which sells ad space.

00:30:22.120 You sell ad space, they get more money.

00:30:23.960 So I literally – when you understand the matrix behind the – the code behind the matrix, you can sit here and really think about how do I need to engage with someone else.

00:30:32.460 And so what I'm doing is I'm assessing is this person emotionally attached to how they're thinking about this – the political challenge or religion or anything else or are they pragmatically thinking about it?

00:30:44.640 And emotionally, it's easy.

00:30:45.960 They will – you'll see high emotions, anger, or a flare-up, a quick response rapidly instead of taking a couple seconds to really think about what it is you said, think about it, and then come back and ask you a question.

00:30:58.920 In other words, if someone starts telling me what they think, I'm most likely dealing with someone more emotional, and I'm going to back away from the topic.

00:31:05.760 If someone starts asking me more about what I think and their verbals are congruent with their nonverbals, they're saying they're genuinely curious, then that's someone I can start touching a little bit closer, a little bit closer, a little bit deeper on the conversation side.

00:31:22.680 So I'm very cautious on not engaging someone who's emotionally engaged in one of these topics.

00:31:28.320 Man, I'm going to pause the conversation just very briefly.

00:31:32.880 Building unbreakable alliances like Robin talks about is simple, but it's not always easy.

00:31:39.920 I struggled for years in finding men that I could work and band with.

00:31:44.740 That was the impetus, in fact, for Order of Man.

00:31:47.300 So I built my own network.

00:31:48.920 And in the absence of the knowledge or time or energy that you have to build your own, all you have to do now is to tap into what we've been able to create over the last nearly 10 years of doing this work.

00:31:59.660 We've got our very first event for 2025 scheduled.

00:32:02.940 It's on May 1st through the 4th, just outside of St. Louis, where you're going to be able to tap into the collective power of hundreds of men who all want to win and they want to see you win.

00:32:11.960 If you want to learn more about the events and the activities and the experience and where it's held and all of the information about it, and also lock in your spot, which are going quick, then head to themensforge.com.

00:32:23.920 That's themensforge.com.

00:32:27.440 Once you get there, everything is included.

00:32:29.720 Food, lodging, activities, speakers, it's all included.

00:32:33.700 You just need to get there.

00:32:35.000 And like I said, it's going to be an amazing event with hundreds of men, and I want you to be there as well.

00:32:39.380 Again, themensforge.com.

00:32:41.360 Do that right after this conversation.

00:32:43.580 For now, let's get back to it with Robin.

00:32:46.780 Well, I think that's a good point.

00:32:48.200 If the emotion is there, the likelihood of it being a productive conversation is significantly lessened.

00:32:53.240 Yeah, it ain't going to happen.

00:32:53.780 For sure.

00:32:55.060 But as a behavioral analysis, can't you look at somebody's perspective on, let's say, politics, for example, since we're on that vein, and make some assessments with some accuracy about the way that they view their life?

00:33:10.300 Of course, not everything.

00:33:11.300 But I would say that there are opinions and perspectives that people have regarding politics where you could make some other assumptions and be right 90% of the time.

00:33:22.740 Yeah, so I call these behavior arcs.

00:33:26.460 And so a lot of times when you get data – so data points with every human being in their behavior give us data points on their behavior arcs, as I call it, life arcs.

00:33:35.640 And as you start taking in these data points, and that happens through the language they use, the way they're interacting, one of the easiest data points to kind of take in to assess is, is someone a wound collector?

00:33:46.680 And do they have a victim mentality or are they problem solvers?

00:33:50.880 That is the first one.

00:33:51.660 You said wound collector?

00:33:52.440 Is that what you said?

00:33:53.340 Yeah, wound collector.

00:33:54.660 I never heard that.

00:33:55.680 I mean I know – I can make some assumptions about what it means, but I never heard that term.

00:33:59.100 That's interesting.

00:34:00.100 Yeah, wound collectors – Joe Navarro talks about it in his book Dangerous Personalities, a good friend of mine.

00:34:04.220 And what wound collectors are, they're the type of people in your life when something happens, they don't take it as just the way the universe is interacting with you around you.

00:34:12.560 I mean you're a hunter.

00:34:14.480 You can't control anything that happens. 1.00

00:34:17.120 In other words, if you're on a hunt and something doesn't go your way, the animal doesn't cross your path, it doesn't come in to your line of fire, whatever the situation is, you don't say to yourself, damn animal, they suck. 1.00

00:34:30.260 It's the animal's – 0.99

00:34:30.620 You say that actually.

00:34:33.800 But that –

00:34:35.520 But I don't blame the animal.

00:34:36.800 I don't – yeah, right.

00:34:37.540 I know what you're saying.

00:34:38.020 Right.

00:34:38.040 It just is what it is.

00:34:39.140 You know, wound collector, you know, someone who's a problem server says, I did something wrong.

00:34:43.240 I need to change my location.

00:34:45.340 I need to be more upwind – no, downwind than upwind.

00:34:49.480 Whatever the situation is, you know that –

00:34:51.520 Sure, make the adjustments.

00:34:52.280 The situation didn't work out.

00:34:53.820 It's I'm going to own it.

00:34:55.140 Again, going back to extreme ownership, I'm going to own my behavior on this one.

00:34:58.680 Instead of placing the blame somewhere else, people that tend to be blame placers are wound collectors.

00:35:04.260 They see themselves as victims.

00:35:06.340 A victim mentality is not a type of individual who typically solves problems effectively and pragmatically.

00:35:12.620 And so those are just – again, when you – that doesn't even – I don't want to place political labels on one side or the other on it.

00:35:22.220 But in general, it's a swath.

00:35:25.720 If someone is a wound collector or has a victim mentality in one area of their life, they're going to manifest it in a lot of other areas of their lives.

00:35:32.120 Yeah, I'm going to avoid it.

00:35:37.080 Well, and those wound collectors, they exist on both sides of the political spectrum.

00:35:41.040 Like let's not pretend they don't because I know plenty of liberals who – liberal tears is what you hear.

00:35:46.540 But then I hear lots of conservatives who are like, oh, well, I'm logical.

00:35:49.140 It's like you're the furthest from being logical right now.

00:35:52.300 You're fanatical and you're being overly emotional about your beliefs and your dogma.

00:35:55.600 It's blame placers. 0.65

00:35:57.260 Anyone who's placing blame on someone else for the situation is not someone who owns it because – well, just relate it to great leadership.

00:36:05.160 Great leaders don't place blame.

00:36:07.260 Great leaders solve problems.

00:36:08.740 That's the only thing I'm looking for.

00:36:10.040 Matter of fact, we get door knockers coming to my neighborhood all the time.

00:36:13.780 We had a challenge in my neighborhood with a business that was moving in that was not good for kids.

00:36:19.300 This was – I'm not going to say what business it was.

00:36:21.720 But it was a business that was like a block from our house, like half a mile or a quarter mile from our elementary school that was not good for our community.

00:36:30.040 And here's our politician knocking on my front door looking for my vote.

00:36:33.600 And my only response was, what specifically are you doing about this problem?

00:36:38.600 Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:36:39.400 Well, it's the state problem.

00:36:40.480 I said, I don't want to hear whose problem it is.

00:36:42.320 I want to know what you are doing about it.

00:36:45.180 Fix it.

00:36:45.780 If you can't tell me what specifically you're going to do, who you're going to call, and what you're going to do to remedy this problem, you don't have my vote because leaders solve problems.

00:36:55.420 They have a plan.

00:36:56.180 They don't place the blame anywhere else.

00:36:57.760 And so when I'm assessing, I don't care who your politics are.

00:37:00.840 I just want leaders who solve problems because leaders do simple things.

00:37:05.320 They accomplish objectives.

00:37:07.520 They create a safe environment for people to innovate, and they're resources for other people's success without expectation or reciprocity.

00:37:13.420 That's it.

00:37:13.980 They're positive.

00:37:14.640 They solve problems, and they're safe.

00:37:17.200 Boom.

00:37:17.880 Do that.

00:37:19.680 I like that.

00:37:20.480 That's a really good framework.

00:37:21.500 They're positive.

00:37:22.100 They solve problems, and they're safe.

00:37:23.700 That safe one is the one I think a lot of people overlook.

00:37:25.960 I have in my life where I'm emotionally volatile, and I may react rather than respond, and then people don't feel comfortable coming to me with issues and concerns because they don't know which version of me they're going to get.

00:37:36.780 Yeah, Ryan, you just hit a beautiful thing there.

00:37:39.280 So the behavior is a trust because you don't accomplish anything in life.

00:37:42.160 We don't build allies, and we don't innovate through problems and let people feel safe because our genetics, biology, and evolution says that, again, we are predictable because we're always going to act in our own best interest.

00:37:53.160 As I said, safety, security, and prosperity for ourselves and those we care about in our lives.

00:37:56.720 Some people circle slow.

00:37:58.280 Some people circle as they're very, very pragmatic.

00:38:01.160 I mean they're very entrepreneurial, and they spread that goodness out as far as they can.

00:38:08.020 But the bedrock of everything is ask yourself what can you do to inspire someone to feel safe with you because no one is going to take an action with you.

00:38:17.600 No one is going to listen to what it is you have to say.

00:38:19.500 No one is going to lie with you unless they feel safe with you, and the behaviors are safe.

00:38:23.040 They're really simple, open and honest communication, transparency, and vulnerability.

00:38:28.920 That's it.

00:38:30.020 And so whatever political spectrum you fall on, assess the people that you're voting for and ask yourself how open and honest are they, how transparent are they, and how vulnerable are they?

00:38:40.780 And are they solving problems or are they blame placers?

00:38:43.060 And you're going to see some problems on both sides.

00:38:47.480 But then when you actually – but if you start adding up the scores, then you can make your own assessment about what it is you want to do.

00:38:53.340 So can I put you on the spot with something here?

00:38:55.060 With your background, I think you might have some insight for us on this.

00:38:59.920 Would you be willing to give us some – from your perspective, I'm assuming you don't know Kamala Harris or Donald Trump personally.

00:39:07.360 But would you be willing to give us some examples of redeeming qualities in each and some qualities that you would consider character defects?

00:39:19.200 I'll start with the character defects of both first.

00:39:22.180 They're both blame placers.

00:39:25.420 Kamala Harris can't get over saying how everything that's going wrong in the administration world in the country is all Donald Trump's fault. 1.00

00:39:32.000 And Donald Trump can't get over of calling her the stupidest person ever running for office and that Hillary Clinton was much dumber, even though crooked Hillary. 1.00

00:39:39.200 So they're really good at calling each other dumb and placing the blame on each other. 1.00

00:39:43.980 So redeeming qualities of both.

00:39:47.080 Donald Trump has been, especially in the last couple weeks, bringing a lot of positive energy.

00:39:50.920 So negative quality of Donald Trump is when he's faced with someone that is attacking him, he leans in and attacks back.

00:39:59.140 But it's a very ugly face for him because he then gets name-calling and he gets like that.

00:40:04.840 But when he faces someone that's very positive, it's a great effect on him.

00:40:08.860 Same thing.

00:40:09.820 Her redeeming qualities would be if she would get – when she's not on script and can be genuine and organic about what she actually – she keeps mentioning her values and that these are her values.

00:40:21.100 Well, when she can stay on her values and not listen to a script given to her, she is very on point and very good because – think about this.

00:40:29.440 Everyone has great values.

00:40:30.620 Everyone is looking to do the right thing for the country.

00:40:33.160 And so when you just take that as the bedrock, that's helpful.

00:40:36.560 And so I think that's very redeeming when she can stay on who she is rather than listen to someone else.

00:40:42.140 And so it's a very redeeming quality.

00:40:43.780 I think she's got probably very good interpersonal skills with individuals one-on-one more than in the group mentality because it just gets derailed sometimes.

00:40:53.460 And so they both have both sides of the coin going I think.

00:40:56.980 Yeah.

00:40:57.380 I think you could make that argument for both because I think Trump is better one-on-one than he is in large places as well.

00:41:04.560 And I think one thing that Trump has done well – and this is a pivot based on what you said that I've seen in the past where he takes criticism or opportunities and he makes light of them, makes fun of it in a positive way I would say, and also just has an enjoyable time with it.

00:41:20.720 You think about him in the garbage truck and he wore his orange vest for the entire thing.

00:41:26.160 To me, he took what he normally would have been combative with and flipped it around and made it a positive, funny, lighthearted moment where he even used self-deprecating humor, calling himself fat and old.

00:41:40.400 It was a little bit more endearing than you've seen in the past from him.

00:41:43.800 Yeah, more Ronald Reagan-esque with the self-deprecating humor.

00:41:46.540 And so believe it or not – so what I assess with both of them and any individual is let go of what media shows you on both because all media is going to slant into what their audience wants, right?

00:42:02.180 Look at how they interact with the people in their lives closest to them.

00:42:05.600 So you look at both candidates and looking at the DNC and watching the RNC conventions.

00:42:11.780 Just look at Kamala Harris and how she interacted with her husband and her closest staff. 1.00

00:42:17.320 And then you can really assess a lot because those are the people that know these people best and you're going to see the reactions they have towards them.

00:42:24.700 And so then when you looked at the RNC and how Donald Trump had his grandchildren – his littlest grandchild sitting on his lap, not by him putting them there but by them wanting to be there.

00:42:36.680 And then Kamala Harris with her husband.

00:42:38.780 So you can really assess how someone is really as a human being by those closest to them, unscripted, uncommercialized, just those moments.

00:42:49.860 And so those are what I'm always looking – I'm always looking for those granular moments of the real person underneath the media facade because that will always be the best indicator of anything.

00:42:59.360 Sometimes that can be a challenge because, to your point, it is so scripted.

00:43:04.460 It is broadcast.

00:43:05.480 It's a performance.

00:43:06.300 I mean let's be honest.

00:43:07.120 Kamala Harris, she's performing.

00:43:08.780 Donald Trump is performing.

00:43:10.280 Yep.

00:43:10.500 And that's what they do and they're trying to communicate a persona that they think their customer or their audience wants, to your point earlier.

00:43:17.680 You know, unfortunately, anytime we want to assess behavior, it's best to always try to get as much data points and ground truth on anyone before the current event happens.

00:43:31.060 And so as soon as – like it's challenging with Donald Trump because most of the books he wrote, he wrote for his own fame and glory at any point in his life.

00:43:42.840 There's not an objective biography out there on him of his life story that I've found.

00:43:46.440 I've looked.

00:43:47.560 Same thing Kamala Harris. 1.00

00:43:48.720 I've tried hard.

00:43:50.180 Everything that's been written about her has been since she got into politics.

00:43:53.980 So that's also a very hard one to do.

00:43:55.740 Barack Obama, I've read his biography.

00:43:57.480 Same thing.

00:43:58.100 It's post-political life that – and so you always got to take it for a grain of salt.

00:44:04.000 I'm telling you the best book to assess a human being right now out there for any of these politicians, J.D. Vance, Hillbilly Elegy.

00:44:11.760 You will get a great sense – now this is not a positive or negative.

00:44:15.300 If you want a sense of an understanding of his life arc of who he is and where he comes from, read his book.

00:44:22.620 The movie was decent.

00:44:24.000 It was pretty close to the book, but read his book because that book was written as – just as he got out of Yale University and just before he went into business.

00:44:33.700 So that is the core data points on his life arc and who he is.

00:44:37.840 And so here's where it's also really good too where you can just sit and assess.

00:44:41.100 So you read the ground truth of any politician or any human being and you will get your own ground knowledge of these individuals.

00:44:51.420 And then when you hear other people talking about them, you're going to be able to assess are they pontificating from a talking point or are they actually talking because they know the individual and did their deeper research?

00:45:03.680 And so when you read source material – again, I'm an intelligence officer.

00:45:07.840 This is what we did.

00:45:08.620 We didn't listen to what was written in the newspaper, although it gives you places to inform.

00:45:13.120 You went to ground truth, always looking for ground truth because ground truth will be your best guide.

00:45:18.080 And so anytime someone comes into politics, anytime someone's coming into any position anywhere, I'm looking for the best ground truth I can.

00:45:24.760 As soon as he announced J.D. Vance – I hadn't heard of J.D. Vance.

00:45:27.880 First thing I did was I went to Amazon and I said, what books have we got out there?

00:45:32.600 And then I did the same thing with Harris and her – and what's his face?

00:45:37.640 Waltz.

00:45:38.200 Waltz, same thing.

00:45:39.180 I'm looking for ground truth because ground truth will be my assessment of not just them as individuals but the people talking about them so I can assess them as well.

00:45:49.320 It is interesting with the J.D. Vance phenomenon and then I want to get away from politics and the real practical application here.

00:45:54.760 Yeah, I know. I've never talked as much about it, so I hope we're not turning everyone off.

00:45:58.000 No, I think it's important.

00:45:59.520 I think we're giving a fair and accurate critique.

00:46:02.420 That's what I want, just somebody to maybe give us their insight, their professional insight.

00:46:06.940 But one thing that was interesting with J.D. Vance is you can also, to me, look at the timeline.

00:46:11.520 So when J.D. wrote Hillbilly Elegy, it was a wildly successful New York Times bestselling book.

00:46:17.100 It obviously was put in theaters and it was received broadly very, very well.

00:46:23.380 Ron Howard.

00:46:24.180 Now, it was – okay, I didn't know who it was.

00:46:26.900 So I mean you're talking about a huge cultural phenomenon here from that book and that story. 0.99

00:46:31.840 And then he is announced as Trump's running mate and all of a sudden he's a horrible, no-good piece of garbage. 0.95

00:46:38.660 And so that to me is a representation of – is him being a horrible person really accurate when it just flipped just because they are now sitting on the opposite side of your political aisle? 0.97

00:46:50.040 Yeah, I think people – when you see a flip happen like that, the people that do the flip, they – it's hard for them to maintain credibility of what they think and what they're sharing because they're not being intellectually honest.

00:47:02.540 I mean because you can't think such positive things about someone on one day and then the next day completely flip everything even though no data points have changed whatsoever.

00:47:10.960 Right, right.

00:47:13.220 So how do you – how do you take this ability for ground information, let's say, really getting to know people behind who they're trying to put out as their persona?

00:47:24.780 How do you do that quickly?

00:47:26.520 Because there's environments whether you're on a date for the first time or you're looking to hire a potential employee, you've got to get to that quickly.

00:47:35.460 What are some points and some things that we can do to really find out who a person is very fast?

00:47:41.960 The things – so I'm going to go to gut feeling here and I'm going to define what gut feeling is because gut feeling, when you actually can make it a little more pragmatic, can be, I think, one of your best guides.

00:47:53.560 Some people say I'm just really good at reading people or I'm really good at assessing someone really rapidly.

00:47:58.840 No, you don't have some super spidey senses or skill set.

00:48:02.080 What you're doing is you're able to rapidly be very present and observation, an observationist.

00:48:07.260 Because what we're seeing is what I'm always looking for is I'm looking for congruency.

00:48:11.860 I'm looking for a congruency of the words coming out of their mouth, their word choice of what they're doing, and the congruency of their body language along with it.

00:48:19.500 And so here's a great example.

00:48:20.860 If someone is using all the words of the keys of communication where they're making it all about me, which is what we're really assessing.

00:48:26.800 Is this person too self-centered or are they centered on me?

00:48:30.620 So where is that balance at?

00:48:31.740 I'm looking for a balance here.

00:48:33.240 They can talk about themselves a bit, but I want to hear things where they're curious about me as well.

00:48:37.440 And if it's all about me, that's even better.

00:48:39.560 If it's all about me, me, me, me, in other words, are they a me-former rather than an informer, that's telling me a lot.

00:48:46.160 And if what I'm looking for those, I'm looking for the nonverbal congruence.

00:48:49.800 And so if someone is actually making the conversation about me by seeking my thoughts and opinions, talking about me nonjudgmentally, validating me, giving me choices, that's fantastic.

00:49:00.240 What I should see with that nonverbally is open, honest communication, eyebrow elevation, smiling, high comfort displays.

00:49:09.580 In other words, if someone is really all about me, they're going to be excited and uplifted about sharing these things about me, about asking me about me, being curious.

00:49:17.520 In other words, Ryan, you're telling me about the hunting trip you went on with your son.

00:49:20.800 I should be doing this.

00:49:22.220 Oh, my gosh, Ryan, that was really pretty amazing.

00:49:24.220 What do you think will be the next thing you guys do?

00:49:25.920 What was the greatest takeaway?

00:49:27.260 What did zebra taste like?

00:49:28.980 You know, so all these moments.

00:49:30.000 So this is congruence as opposed to really?

00:49:33.280 Ryan, tell me more about that hunting trip.

00:49:36.020 All right.

00:49:37.180 See what I mean?

00:49:37.800 So that is, so like, is he really curious or what's going on in his mind?

00:49:41.500 The other thing I'm looking for too is someone pushing the tempo.

00:49:43.900 People that are all about me are going to accommodate my tempo.

00:49:48.580 Human beings, we have a tempo of speech.

00:49:50.560 We have a tempo of interaction.

00:49:51.700 We have a tempo of how quickly or slowly we give trust, how open we are or not open.

00:49:57.880 If someone tries to push my tempo, well, then it's about them.

00:50:01.160 It's not about me.

00:50:01.860 So those are what I'm looking for right away.

00:50:03.700 I'm looking for a lot of congruence.

00:50:05.320 I'm looking for how revealing they are, how open, how transparent they are.

00:50:08.740 If I'm asking a question, if they brought up, if something comes out of their mouth, like one of the questions I'd love is like, what was that spark and inspiration, Ryan, all those years ago to be who you are today?

00:50:19.400 I should have some open data points right away about, hey, I grew up here.

00:50:23.800 I did this.

00:50:24.340 I got into hunting with my parents and my dad here.

00:50:26.580 I shared it with my son here.

00:50:28.740 You know, I should get these data points.

00:50:29.940 Now, if I then do a quick, hey, what was it like this?

00:50:33.880 I'm so sorry.

00:50:34.840 Tell me more about what it was like when you did this.

00:50:37.340 What I should have is that on that same tempo, the same level of transparency and openness and vulnerability.

00:50:42.840 Vulnerability mean, hey, here's when things went a little sideways and I did my best to mitigate it, very much like we were talking about with the self-deprecating humor.

00:50:49.860 Only people who are self-secure in themselves will do that.

00:50:52.420 And so I should have that same tempo of everything with the transparency I'm seeking based off of what you already shared.

00:50:59.780 Now, if someone actually starts shutting down, if I say, hey, tell me a little bit more about this if you're comfortable with it.

00:51:04.920 If I go, yeah, well, now we start getting a little incongruence and makes me a little – it gives me – I call it – it gives me a red flag.

00:51:14.660 Red flags are smoke.

00:51:15.780 We might not have fire, but red flags start giving smoke.

00:51:18.080 If you've got two red flags and three, that's when I just start distancing.

00:51:24.960 I don't say I shut you down.

00:51:26.460 I don't say that you're a bad person or anything.

00:51:28.040 I just say we have someone who's not willing to have a healthy relationship with me in this lane.

00:51:32.300 I need to back off a little bit here because there's something going on here and I don't want to guess at what it is, but it's not going to be good.

00:51:39.840 I really like the idea of congruency in your words and your behavior.

00:51:43.720 I remember this was years and years ago, more than a decade ago, and I had somebody that I was working with.

00:51:50.400 I was in financial planning, and this person was in the financial business as well, and they said, hey, I want to introduce you to the gentleman who runs our organization.

00:51:59.480 I said, great, let's do that.

00:52:01.200 So he introduced me to him, and I sat down, and the gentleman said all the right things.

00:52:06.340 He was very curious, very interested, asking the right questions, seemed like very genuine, but then he started taking notes, and so he had this notepad out, and he would ask me, he's like, so where are you from?

00:52:19.060 And he would write it down, and he's like, how many kids do you have?

00:52:22.280 And then he would write it down, and I'm like, finally, I was like, what are you doing?

00:52:27.480 He's like, oh, I'm just taking notes.

00:52:29.080 And I said, why?

00:52:30.440 I thought we were just having a conversation.

00:52:32.660 He's like, oh, it just helps me to remember.

00:52:34.360 That was an incongruency and inconsistency in my mind that this person just does not care about me genuinely.

00:52:41.380 They're trying to game or manipulate or write it down so they could use it at some future point.

00:52:46.260 It was very hard for me to wrap my head around, and I ended up not liking this guy in large part because of that.

00:52:51.600 You know, it's interesting too.

00:52:53.900 During all our training, even for FBI agents, the last thing you want to do is take notes during an interview because, one, it's very distracting.

00:53:02.420 Two, you're showing exactly what you're doing.

00:53:05.120 And also, everyone should do this.

00:53:08.080 Try this on your own if you're watching and listening to this.

00:53:11.180 If you have nothing to say, you will remember everything the other person says.

00:53:16.520 When we're having a conversation with someone, 99% of the time is as they're sharing a thought, opinion, idea, or an anecdote of what they've done in their lives, our brain is automatically coming up with a way to make a connection.

00:53:30.660 We have our own anecdote, our own story, things that – and now our brain is now focused on what it is we want to say and not what I'm there saying.

00:53:38.680 And so we are waiting for a pause so we can interrupt or interject our own thoughts and opinions.

00:53:44.620 And when we're thinking about what it is we want to say, we're not remembering what it is Ryan's saying.

00:53:48.500 So for yourself, the first time you do this, I guarantee it's going to be the weirdest feeling in your own brain that you'll ever have but the rewards you're going to be profoundly impacted by.

00:53:59.100 The first – the next conversation you have with someone, they're sharing an anecdote or story.

00:54:02.440 I mean do this.

00:54:03.640 Think about – because this will come out – Halloween was yesterday as of this recording.

00:54:08.780 This will come out later.

00:54:10.060 Ask yourself – ask someone.

00:54:11.620 Say, hey, so what did you do with your kids on Halloween if someone has kids?

00:54:14.880 Or what did your kids dress up as, right?

00:54:16.540 As they're sharing that story, you're probably going to have something jumping in your mind.

00:54:21.040 Flush it. 0.83

00:54:22.020 Pay attention.

00:54:23.100 And then follow up with what do you think inspired them to pick that?

00:54:26.660 I guarantee you if you have those two things, what was the spark and inspiration for them to choose that outfit?

00:54:33.200 You didn't have a way you wanted to reciprocate with a story about your own kids or something.

00:54:36.960 I guarantee you you're going to remember that story about that person's kids and what they dress up as and why for a very long time.

00:54:46.540 You know what's so fascinating to me?

00:54:49.040 Yeah, right, yeah.

00:54:50.480 What's so fascinating to me about the power of asking questions is that it's – let me say it this way.

00:54:58.440 I think a lot of people are trying to posture and position for credibility, authority, influence with other people.

00:55:03.980 And so they think if I make this about me and show off my credentials and talk about how wonderful I am, then I'm on this pedestal.

00:55:11.500 I found the exact opposite to be true.

00:55:13.880 The more interested I am in a person and the better, more poignant questions I ask, the more credibility or influence that person is willing to lend me.

00:55:22.420 But it's completely opposite of what most people think and do.

00:55:26.580 100%.

00:55:26.980 Ryan, you've done podcasting a long time though.

00:55:30.520 I looked back.

00:55:31.180 It was – what was it, 2020?

00:55:32.460 It was our first conversation.

00:55:33.640 I mean it's been a minute.

00:55:34.920 I mean you've been doing this a while.

00:55:35.840 2020 and I started in 2015.

00:55:37.720 So it's been a long time.

00:55:39.180 Yeah.

00:55:39.360 So tell me there's no better compliment you get in the world than when someone says, oh my gosh, no one has ever asked me that before.

00:55:47.500 I love that.

00:55:50.020 And that person and you remembers that moment for a very long time and the answer given.

00:55:55.540 And so that's what makes the greatest impact with each other, with human beings is when someone – and those moments only happen when you're deeply present for the other person.

00:56:04.500 It's the greatest – I talk about this all the time.

00:56:06.260 It is the greatest gift you can give another human being is to be present for them.

00:56:11.340 No agenda.

00:56:12.760 Just there for them because that is building more credibility than anything else in the world with that individual.

00:56:18.960 That person – I mean think about it.

00:56:20.420 That person who you had that response from, you could have an ask from them 15 years later and be like, yeah, Ryan, anything you want.

00:56:28.940 I mean seriously, Ryan, again, 2020 is our last conversation.

00:56:32.460 When this book was coming out and my publicist comes to me and says, hey, do you have a list of people who show you want to get back to – you were the very first one at the very top.

00:56:40.040 I want to go back on his show, man.

00:56:41.020 He's a great guy.

00:56:41.940 Why?

00:56:42.320 I appreciate that.

00:56:43.320 Great conversation because you made it about me.

00:56:45.700 With your work as – in the FBI, behavioral analysis, what exactly was the work that you were doing?

00:56:54.760 I mean when you're talking about analyzing people's behaviors and their patterns, are these potential criminals, suspects, people in the FBI itself that you're trying to train?

00:57:05.860 Like what is it that you were doing there?

00:57:08.080 I was strategizing trust.

00:57:09.280 That's the baseline easy and quick answer.

00:57:12.000 I was strategizing trust.

00:57:13.320 Trust between who?

00:57:14.260 So I worked in the world of counterintelligence, and my job was recruiting spies.

00:57:18.480 For most of my career, I was recruiting Russian military intelligence officers, GRU officers from Russia.

00:57:23.640 I mean my job against most of my career was Russians. 1.00

00:57:26.580 And boy, I tell you –

00:57:29.980 That's interesting.

00:57:31.120 Yeah.

00:57:32.020 We've owned them for a long time.

00:57:34.000 Nothing – no matter what anyone in the media has ever said in the last bunch of years, they were doing nothing new than they've always done before.

00:57:40.680 They've improved – technology has improved, but they've always used active measures against the U.S.

00:57:46.060 And I've said this a long time.

00:57:48.940 I've said this at the very beginning.

00:57:51.020 Russians don't take sides. 0.98

00:57:53.620 They hate us all.

00:57:55.520 Their number one goal and objectives is so distrust in our organizations and institutions between us and the American people.

00:58:02.120 That's it.

00:58:03.500 That's what they were successful at.

00:58:05.140 That was 100% all they want to do.

00:58:06.600 There's no taking a side – 0.51

00:58:08.060 The most ludicrous thing I ever heard was, oh, they want Hillary to win. 1.00

00:58:11.920 They want Trump to win. 0.92

00:58:12.640 No, they don't.

00:58:13.160 They don't care.

00:58:13.900 They want us all to fail.

00:58:15.040 That is the most important thing for people to remember.

00:58:19.220 And you know how I know?

00:58:20.740 They've told me I've recruited Russian defectors at the highest levels, and we know exactly what their game plan is.

00:58:27.160 We know exactly – but also, that's nothing new.

00:58:30.340 We've known this for a very long time.

00:58:31.740 So that's the first thing.

00:58:33.100 So what my team did was very simple.

00:58:35.500 We were strategizing recruitment operations as the highest level, and then we're strategizing interview operations, double agent operations, false flags, all the hooky, spooky spy stuff.

00:58:46.040 And we came in, and we looked at the human being that my case agents need to have a human interaction with, whether it was to offer them an opportunity to provide – be a resource to the United States government and do what I call the toughest sales job in the world, selling American patriotism to a Russian spy.

00:59:00.540 Who the hell wants to buy that?

00:59:02.560 Every now and then, you do have someone who wants to buy that.

00:59:04.620 So we're strategizing these human engagements.

00:59:07.620 Believe it or not, half the time when I was going in and helping a case agent assess how to have a great conversation and offer a resource that can solve a challenge, priority, or pain point in a potential spy's life and then trust them with their lives, that's what we do every day in life.

00:59:23.980 Can we be a resource to someone else, and can they trust us with their life?

00:59:27.020 And I was then strategizing, how do you inspire management, these case agents' bosses, to say yes to the operation?

00:59:35.920 Because if they don't get yes, they're not going to do it.

00:59:38.820 And so how can you inspire a boss to say yes?

00:59:41.720 They have to feel safe that this operation I'm proposing to a case agent do, it's not going to kill their career.

00:59:47.040 I was strategizing trust nonstop, inside, outside, upside down, because pitching an intelligence officer to cooperate in the United States government is the last hurdle you face when doing this.

01:00:04.080 The first and biggest hurdles is the approval to do it.

01:00:09.600 Yeah, and there's a lot of moving parts, I imagine, and a lot of self-interest that you need to make sure are aligned.

01:00:17.020 Yeah, and the greatest challenge there is to not judge the decision process of the bosses.

01:00:23.820 In other words, if people were careerists and they're afraid to say yes to an operation because they're a careerist, they didn't want to hurt their operation, I can't judge that.

01:00:29.780 Because that's going to hinder me trying to do this.

01:00:32.400 You know, again, going back to Leif Babin and Jocko with Lincoln and dichotomy and leadership, Leif would come back with these – Leif was the platoon commander, Jocko was the detachment commander over in Ramadi, I think it was.

01:00:45.320 And they were doing this operation, and they put in the proposal to get the operation done, high-end operation, high-speed, low-drag, going to go in, kill the bad guys, get the good guys out.

01:00:54.820 And they put in their proposal, and it got shot down by higher command. 1.00

01:00:58.020 And Leif is like, bitch, and he's moaning, he's complaining, how come blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah, and all Jocko did was, hey, shut up, man. 1.00

01:01:04.920 It's your fault. 1.00

01:01:06.840 He goes, what do you mean it's your fault?

01:01:07.900 He says, you did not provide enough information for the boss to feel safe with saying yes.

01:01:13.740 What can you do – don't judge what they want to feel safe with.

01:01:18.440 That's not your concern.

01:01:19.440 Your concern is get the operation done.

01:01:21.020 Your job is the mission.

01:01:22.520 You failed to make them feel safe with what it is you want to do.

01:01:26.220 So give them what they want so they will say yes to doing the righteous work.

01:01:30.340 That is called a problem solver, not a wound collector victim.

01:01:34.540 Victims say, oh, it's their fault.

01:01:35.880 You know, wait, wait, wait, wait.

01:01:36.980 The bosses don't say yes to me.

01:01:38.160 It's all their fault.

01:01:38.900 No, no, no.

01:01:39.720 Own it.

01:01:40.480 What can you do to make them feel safe?

01:01:43.260 So you're not judging their motives, but you certainly want to discern what those motives are though because then it gives you the ammo that you need to propose a solution that will make them feel comfortable enough in saying yes.

01:01:54.640 Yes, 100%.

01:01:56.020 That was the single hardest thing for me to do in my entire career.

01:02:00.960 I'm a former Marine.

01:02:02.680 All I cared about all the time was mission.

01:02:05.200 Marines, especially at the lower level, I got out of captain.

01:02:09.660 We're not careerists.

01:02:10.920 You are mission.

01:02:11.740 Mission, mission, mission.

01:02:12.460 It's all you ever hear about.

01:02:13.420 Mission first, people always.

01:02:15.040 That's all I ever – I cared about.

01:02:16.200 My Marines, I cared about the mission.

01:02:17.140 Marines, mission.

01:02:17.640 Marines, mission.

01:02:18.140 And so it was very challenging for me to come out of that environment and understand that some people are – now, granted, they don't think they are, but they are career-oriented.

01:02:31.880 You have people that care about that next promotion.

01:02:35.020 If your operation is going to undermine the potential for the next promotion, then they're probably going to say no.

01:02:40.880 I was judging that for a long time, and with me judging it, what started happening?

01:02:47.540 I started saying negative things.

01:02:49.780 I started being a victim.

01:02:50.900 I started complaining.

01:02:51.960 I started whining.

01:02:53.460 Who wants to say yes to that kind of guy?

01:02:56.680 Yeah, of course.

01:02:57.220 You're undermining trust in the things that you want to build.

01:02:59.300 Again, it goes back to if I could tell my 20-year-old self something to be more successful would have been, what can I do to make my boss's job a little bit easier?

01:03:06.900 What can I do to be a greater resource to the people on my squad?

01:03:10.400 Get off yourself and what it is you want to accomplish.

01:03:13.840 Figure out what other people are trying to do.

01:03:15.460 Be a resource for them.

01:03:16.540 That way, when you have an ask, of course they're going to support you. 0.98

01:03:19.120 It's funny that you said that because that's what was going through my mind because we have a lot of men who will ask and say, you know, I have this boss, and he's a jerk, or he's not letting me do this, and I have no autonomy in my whatever. 0.97

01:03:31.720 Fill in your gripe of choice, and the answer is, I think, just what you said. 0.98

01:03:38.520 Make him look good.

01:03:39.580 If you make him look good and he knows that whatever you do, it's going to fall on him and he's going to look good, he's not going to say no to that.

01:03:46.640 100% of the time, he will say yes to that.

01:03:49.980 And it's so right.

01:03:51.960 And a typical response to that is, well, I'm not going to compromise my values. 1.00

01:03:54.880 I'm not going to be a suck ass. 1.00

01:03:56.060 Good, don't. 1.00

01:03:56.840 Then I can guarantee you're going to get a no.

01:03:58.920 Yeah.

01:03:59.340 It's a choice.

01:04:00.120 Then just live with your choice.

01:04:01.220 If you are the type of person that your ego is so big that you can't stand to make it about someone else other than yourself and what it is you want to do and communicate in terms of what they need to feel safe, fine.

01:04:13.480 See, to me, there's no right or wrong in this.

01:04:15.180 There's just cause and effect.

01:04:16.640 If you do not want to be of value to someone else and allow them to feel safe with you as a partner and you as a team member that's going to accomplish the mission that you want to accomplish, I can guarantee you what's going to happen.

01:04:29.820 They're going to say no.

01:04:31.140 And they're going to repeatedly say no.

01:04:32.520 And then here's what the other negative effect that – see, I never just think of the one round going down range.

01:04:37.460 I'm thinking of collateral damage.

01:04:39.780 So because they now have a negative affect towards you, do you think that's the only person that it impacts is that one person that thinks about this you?

01:04:47.700 Yeah, of course not.

01:04:48.080 Everyone that communicates in their circle of influence is now going to have leakage about what this person thinks about you.

01:04:53.980 So your personal brand is now starting to go down the toilet.

01:04:57.240 Not just that, but everyone you now interact with in your social circle that might value you, that you value them, you're now going to have negative leakage on them, a negative halo going.

01:05:07.580 So just because you decided that you're going to stand your ground and not support the bosses, whatever makes them feel unsafe, the negative effect not just on you but everyone in your own circle is going to be profound.

01:05:23.140 No right, no wrong.

01:05:24.180 I just can guarantee the results.

01:05:26.600 Make a choice.

01:05:28.300 This is powerful stuff.

01:05:29.840 I want to be respectful of your time.

01:05:31.620 I know you have a meeting that you got to get to.

01:05:33.740 So tell the guys where to connect with you.

01:05:35.880 The book is called Unbreakable Alliances.

01:05:37.460 It's out today as of the release of this podcast.

01:05:40.220 Tell the men where they can pick up a copy and learn more about the work you do.

01:05:43.400 Really simple, man.

01:05:44.340 Just go to robindreek.com, R-O-B-I-N-D-R-E-E-K-E.com.

01:05:49.160 I call it the site where it's Death by Robin.

01:05:51.220 I got my YouTube videos there that you can just get more behavioral training.

01:05:54.320 You can buy the books, obviously.

01:05:55.760 And most importantly, if I can be a resource for you anyway, connect.

01:05:58.700 Just reach out to me.

01:05:59.860 Happy to answer questions.

01:06:00.660 Let me know that you met me on Ryan's show here.

01:06:04.300 It is a great show.

01:06:05.240 And my final plug is, hey, Ryan puts in a hell of a lot of time and energy and resource

01:06:09.360 into providing you all great content.

01:06:11.300 Hit that like, hit that subscribe, and share it with as many people as you can because a

01:06:13.980 lot of people need more Ryan in their lives.

01:06:16.140 Well, I appreciate that.

01:06:17.140 I don't know if that's accurate, but I'd certainly appreciate it and I'll take it.

01:06:20.400 Robin, it's great to talk with you.

01:06:21.440 Always enjoy our conversations.

01:06:22.900 And I'm looking forward to, hopefully it's not another three, four years before you write

01:06:26.180 another book and we have to do this again.

01:06:27.660 Maybe we do something in between.

01:06:29.740 I'd love to, man.

01:06:30.840 Stay safe, brother.

01:06:31.780 Thank you, brother.

01:06:32.320 Appreciate you.

01:06:32.820 Gentlemen, Mr. Robin Dreek.

01:06:36.300 I always enjoy my conversations with Robin.

01:06:38.380 We're like old friends and we hit it off well.

01:06:40.980 I've had him on a couple of times and you can see why this is a person who I admire and respect

01:06:46.340 and want to have on the podcast.

01:06:48.300 So as a marching order for you, make sure to pick up a copy of his unbelievable book.

01:06:54.220 It's called Unbreakable Alliances.

01:06:56.820 I've read it myself.

01:06:57.900 I have an advanced copy and was able to read it, but it's out today as of the release of

01:07:01.660 this podcast.

01:07:02.100 So support him.

01:07:03.520 Of course, support Order of Man by supporting our guests, tagging us on your social media

01:07:08.140 posts, sharing, leaving a rating, leaving a review, and then make sure also to check out

01:07:13.440 our event, which is held May 1st through the 4th, 2025 at themensforge.com, themensforge.com.

01:07:22.520 All right, guys, those are your marching orders.

01:07:24.620 We'll be back tomorrow for our Ask Me Anything.

01:07:26.760 Until then, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to be.

01:07:30.660 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

01:07:34.920 If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be,

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Order of Man - November 05, 2024

ROBIN DREEKE ｜ Forging Unbreakable Alliances

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