We all know how crucial it is to build alliances in our lives, and yet most men aren t deliberate and intentional about how they do it. Most of your connections are a product of default proximity, not rational design. Your neighbor, your brother, that guy who works down the hall from you? How do you form and nurture these strategic relationships? Robin Dreek joins me today to share his knowledge as a former FBI behavioral analyst and spy recruiter. We discuss the power of non-judgmental curiosity, the 4 keys of effective communication, how to analyze a person s behaviors and motives quickly, including an analysis of the positive and negative characteristics of both Kamala Harris and Donald Trump, and why some men can read people well while others can't.
00:00:00.000We all know how crucial it is to build alliances in our lives, and yet most men aren't real deliberate and intentional about how they do it.
00:00:07.280Think about it. Most of your connections are a product of default proximity, not rational design.
00:00:12.840Your neighbor, your brother, that guy who works down the hall from you, etc.
00:00:17.660So how do you form and nurture these strategic relationships?
00:00:21.520Robin Dreek joins me today to share his knowledge as a former FBI behavioral analyst and spy recruiter.
00:00:27.320We discussed the power of non-judgmental curiosity, the four keys of effective communication, how to analyze a person's behaviors and motives quickly,
00:00:36.440including an analysis of the positive and negative characteristics of both Kamala Harris and Donald Trump,
00:00:42.060how to strategize trust with others, and why some men can read people well while others can't.
00:00:47.420You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
00:00:53.180When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.
00:00:57.900You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.
00:01:02.920This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become.
00:01:07.180At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
00:01:12.120Gentlemen, welcome to the Order of Men podcast. My name is Ryan Mickler. I am glad you're here.
00:01:18.620We are fast approaching 10 years, in March of next year or so. What's that?
00:01:23.080Six months away. We're going to be at our 10-year anniversary, and I just want to thank you for joining me and listening to this
00:01:30.100and applying this information with your family and friends and colleagues and coworkers
00:01:33.700and making this thing a success and living your lives as men.
00:01:37.560I've got a good conversation lined up with a former podcast guest and former FBI behavioral analysis.
00:01:43.960His name is Robin Dreek. We get into the power of forging unbreakable alliances.
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00:02:43.740Let me introduce you to my guest. His name is Robin Dreek.
00:02:46.360As I said earlier, a former behavioral analysis for the FBI and also a – I was going to say former Marine,
00:02:53.880He spent more than two decades recruiting Russian spies as U.S. assets and navigating the internal politics of the Bureau.
00:03:03.840He's written four books. They are It's Not All About Me, The Code of Trust, Sizing People Up,
00:03:10.520and his newest book, Unbreakable Alliances.
00:03:13.260And in it, he teaches how to build trust, communicate with impact, inspire others through stories and narratives,
00:03:19.340and how to resolve personal and professional conflict.
00:03:22.020Yeah, so Ryan, it was funny. We were just talking about the wonders of technology today compared to the way they were not even that long ago.
00:03:31.360I was just sharing with you, I got a piece of the glass from the World Trade Center right here actually because I was in New York during 9-11.
00:03:39.000And even back then, not that long ago, people often ask me, how did you deal with that?
00:03:45.820Like logistically, not just deal with watching eight people jump from the North Tower before the South Tower was even hit because my office was like five blocks away.
00:03:54.740But we didn't have cell phones on my squad.
00:04:00.980Can you imagine getting leads and trying to conduct interviews and do things with people prior to even the technology to be able to communicate effectively?
00:04:10.960Yeah, well, I even think about it on a micro level with my kids, you know, if they – my older kids anyways, my two oldest have cell phones.
00:04:19.420And I'm thinking, well, I want them to check in.
00:04:22.000I want them to tell me what's going on, where they're at, what time they're going to be home.
00:04:25.620And then I thought as I was a kid, I didn't have any of that.
00:04:29.120My mom would call around the neighborhood or call houses or call my friends' houses and say, hey, is Ryan over there?
00:04:34.000And I just knew it would be home by dark.
00:04:46.860Just even the way – and my son is a Marine Corps officer right now.
00:04:49.620And just the way they pass information now compared to what it was like when I was in the Marine Corps.
00:04:54.620You know, we used to – when we were standing duty or what was called mate of the deck, you know, we would get a phone call on a hardwired phone.
00:05:12.060You know, we'd write it down on a sticky note or a piece of paper and then hand walk it to someone's room, leave it on their desk, and hope that someone got it and could get the message that they needed.
00:05:31.300Yeah, and I think the tools that we have are only as good as our capability in using them.
00:05:36.520You know, I see so many people, for example, bag on social media, and I've done it too, and it has its fair share of critique and criticism.
00:05:43.480But also, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation.
00:05:46.700People wouldn't be listening to this podcast without the power of social media.
00:05:49.660So it's interesting when people complain about something they use so frequently and has made their lives that much better.
00:05:55.680Yeah, I'm not a big believer in bashing anything.
00:06:00.440Everything in life is just another tool, you know, and can you keep balance between the tool and what the actual need of the tool is?
00:06:08.680And again, with us as a human being and human species, we require deep-rooted connections, and the best connections we have that give us the things that we value, that we can resonate with, is human contact.
00:06:22.880I mean, we're not going to undo, you know, hundreds of thousands of years of evolution in a small time span of time saying that, hey, technology can replace all that or give us just as much, you know, with that connectivity.
00:06:49.940I don't – I used to struggle with this personally, but it just was because I didn't put myself out there and didn't feel like it was important.
00:06:57.040But when I started in my financial planning career, I realized I need a network.
00:07:02.300I need to be a likable person, a credible person, so I can build out a network and build my business, and that translated over to what we're doing now.
00:07:09.300So I haven't struggled for a long time with this.
00:07:12.540I realize the importance, but I think a lot of men in particular really do struggle with making powerful strategic connections.
00:07:20.700Yeah, it's a great question that a lot of people don't ask, especially men don't ask.
00:07:25.220We are hard-pressed – and I know you've covered this on your show before – we are hard-pressed as men to have the humility to say we need help or the hard-pressed to have the humility to say we need someone else in our life or an ally in our life because we are so coded to want to provide, to be of service to others that we oftentimes don't know that in order to be of service to others, we need to have connections with others.
00:07:52.360You know, I'm what's considered a first-generational professional.
00:07:55.800I just learned this term the other day.
00:07:57.240I always just thought because of how I grew up having to heat my house all by wood that I was just gritty, resilient, and self-reliant because my parents didn't have any money.
00:08:04.880And that's part of it, but also part of it was I didn't have teachers, mentors, and guides in my life showing me the path to get in the Naval Academy, to be a productive Marine Corps officer, to be a productive professional in a professional work environment
00:08:18.440that was so far out of the norm for what my family was.
00:08:21.980I just didn't come from a blue-collar family.
00:08:23.840Blue-collar was elevated for my family.
00:08:26.800You know, I'm not just first generation to go to college.
00:08:29.960My grandparents didn't even graduate from high school on either side.
00:08:33.540So it was like really, really hard-pressed where I grew up.
00:08:37.340But it all came down to the fact that I was able to do these things and move into running the behavioral analysis program for the FBI and write books and all this.
00:08:46.380And because I had people, thank God, inserted themselves into my life and became those trusted allies, became those people that I had relationships with, that became part of the whole,
00:08:57.680that I started realizing much later in life to my own chagrin was that without these great powerful allies in life, you really can't do anything.
00:09:07.120One of the – I have so many great books that I'm humbled by when I read them.
00:09:11.060One of them was The Courage to be Disliked.
00:09:13.420And the great thing about that book, there's a simple quote in there I love.
00:09:17.220All problems are interpersonal problems.
00:09:20.700And so if you face any challenge in life, anything, I guarantee you most of the time, if not all the time, you don't have the solution by yourself.
00:09:30.500It's going to require a thought, an idea, a collaboration, or a partnership with someone to move through that challenge.
00:09:41.220And so when you can move through that challenge, it only happens with a great, healthy relationship.
00:09:46.180So that really emphasizes the power and importance of us as a species because, again, we would not have come to where we are as a species, one, without the power of collaboration.
00:09:55.300And we couldn't collaborate without, as the great book Sapien says, without the ability to tell stories about each other and gossip.
00:10:06.500That gossip, you kind of almost wonder sometimes, is that a useful tool?
00:10:09.800And it is because you're informing your community and you're learning about other people and who to stay away from and who to cling to and all these other things that you can learn through people just whispering and talking about each other.
00:10:21.440You do have to be careful, though, because it gets deceitful and conniving.
00:10:25.520And there's obviously self-interest in mistreating people or abusing relationships or manipulating others.
00:11:05.180You know, and so very rarely, if ever, is someone doing something to you, they're just being who they are.
00:11:11.920They're battling for resources, and as they're battling for resources, because, again, human beings are exceptionally predictable.
00:11:19.520We're always going to act in our own best interests in terms of safety, security, and prosperity from our own optic.
00:11:25.220All you have to do is figure out what the other person thinks that is from their perspective, which is deep, active empathy, and you'll understand what they're going to do.
00:11:33.420And then if you now provide resources in terms of them being successful and you have trust, you're going to have a great relationship.
00:11:40.020Again, the greatest advice I could have given my 20-year-old self that I know now that I didn't know then is instead of trying to make myself look good all the time and me, me, me, me, me, was what can I do to make everyone's life around me just a little bit easier, a little bit better?
00:11:56.000Because when you have that outward focus, who doesn't want to be inspired to reciprocate that?
00:12:02.400Again, when you do so without an agenda or without an ask, that's when you have those deep relationships.
00:12:07.800And you get that – as Jack O'Lincoln, Leif Babin talk about extreme ownership and dichotomy of leadership, you talk about trust credits.
00:12:15.380You have – your reservoir is full, so if you one day have a big ask, of course, there's never even a second guess on it.
00:12:21.980So that's how we do these things, and it's why it's so important.
00:12:26.380I think that a lot of people probably do have connections.
00:12:29.220I don't think it's a lack of connections.
00:12:30.580People are interacting with others all the time, whether it's their kids or their spouse, a neighbor, community member, somebody who works down the office from them, or a cousin or a grandfather.
00:12:44.440We're interacting with people all the time, but what I've found to be the biggest challenge for a lot of people is not that they're not interacting, but they're not doing it by design.
00:12:52.160They just kind of fall into these default relationships.
00:12:54.880Whether they serve them or not is completely irrelevant in a lot of people's minds.
00:13:15.060A lot of times, and I don't mean it in a way that anyone's degrading anyone by this thought process because no one's consciously thinking these things, but when we're engaging the world, we have lots of contacts.
00:13:27.300We have lots of associates in order to fix our things that we're working on in life.
00:13:32.320But a lot of times what we're doing is we're regarding people as a tool.
00:13:37.060Screwdriver, wrench, I need a certain wrench to do this.
00:13:39.440I need a certain screwdriver to do this.
00:13:41.020But it's less personal because we're missing an element of understanding them at a deeper level.
00:13:48.300And if you take like an extra 30 seconds to pay attention to – not even 30 seconds most of the time, even less – to pay attention to this key facet.
00:13:58.820I have these things called the keys to communication.
00:14:00.980There's one that is really critical in this instance is discovering and understanding the challenges, priorities, pain points, and friction points of those around you.
00:14:09.140So a lot of times – I mean think about this.
00:14:11.560Think about those people that you actually are associated with in your life, that you have connections with, that you interact with, that are problem solvers at the surface level, maybe even a little bit deeper.
00:14:21.800They'll call on you to solve these things.
00:14:23.820How many of those supposed associates of connections do you actually understand at a deeper level, slightly below the surface, what those challenges, priority points, and friction points are in their lives?
00:14:34.800Have you taken time to really – because people leak it all the time.
00:14:40.400A lot of times we blow by that leakage when someone's sharing what's going on in their lives, what kind of challenge you're dealing with today, what happened last night, just anything like that.
00:14:50.700When you pay attention to those things, you're demonstrating a few things.
00:14:53.340You're being deeply present for them, and you're hearing their words without trying to respond with your own narrative of what's going on in your life.
00:15:01.140So you can really, really pay attention because then when you hear those things that are going on in your life, it gives you the greatest opportunity ever.
00:15:08.060What – I use that word what, not why, but what because it makes us be very specific.
00:15:13.660What specifically can you do if it ever comes up again that you can be a proactive resource in their lives to help them overcome those things?
00:15:21.560And even if not something they're overcoming a challenge or something, the next time you get together with them, will you do the most important thing when you start the next conversation is ask them about what they shared last time first.
00:15:33.080I do this at the gym every day, so I swim every morning.
00:15:36.180It's part of what I do for mental health is movement, and I swim every morning.
00:15:40.300I have very loose associations in the pool, yet I know one of the guys I swim with in there.
00:15:51.420I know he's got four kids, and one of his kids he teaches himself in college.
00:15:55.960I know at a deeper level, and this is someone I literally interact with for 30 seconds before I start my laps and as he's starting his.
00:16:04.880Yeah, I mean it's powerful when you're intentional about it.
00:16:07.260I'm curious why you use the term alliance because the book is called Unbreakable Alliances, and we hear network or we hear band of brothers or we hear other terms.
00:16:16.540But why did you choose to use the word alliance?
00:16:19.900Alliances, it just gives this connotation and feeling of allies.
00:16:24.240Allies are with you side by side, and it's a balanced equation to me.
00:16:28.720When you say an ally, allies are balanced.
00:16:30.920For me, if you were going to have healthy things in life, everything – I keep referring, I know, a few times now to Jocko with Lincoln, Leif Babin.
00:16:39.420I love dichotomy of leadership so much because it really highlighted to me that everything in life is really a dichotomy because dichotomy – we can't experience really great moments unless we've had really crappy ones because otherwise it's just a moment.
00:17:11.460If someone is giving more than the other is giving, that's going to be a relationship out of balance, and we measure that in balance by negative emotions, resentment, anger, all those negative emotions come up, show there's something out of balance.
00:17:25.520And so for me, the word ally is indicative of a balanced relationship where everyone is there for each other, willing to be a proactive resource for each other.
00:17:35.360And now granted, it might never come to be.
00:17:38.280There might be a lopsided relationship where someone is giving, giving, giving, giving because of their title, their position, their resources they have.
00:17:44.640But as long as the other person demonstrates the most important thing in the world ever is that they value that and they just respond with deep gratitude.
00:17:54.880Matter of fact, I tried – if I haven't done it with you yet, Ryan, I probably will after this.
00:17:59.420I always respond to all my emails with my deepest gratitude because no one has to do anything for you.
00:18:04.840So when you demonstrate that deep gratitude and you demonstrate how you value and recognize the effort they're taking, that in a large way is reciprocity and demonstrating there is a balance there because it's recognized that it's out of balance.
00:18:18.360Well, and finding those people who are willing to reciprocate, right?
00:18:21.500Because not everybody is, and even if they are, they may not reciprocate in a way that you appreciate.
00:18:26.200I think about, for example, in romantic relationships, the five love languages.
00:18:29.660If I'm a physical affection person and I'm with somebody who is not and they're not interested in that side of the relationship or expressing love that way, that's not really a relationship I'm interested in being in because now my needs aren't being met.
00:18:45.280But what I have found is that a lot of people get jaded because they take the advice of what you're saying where it's give, give, give, add value, improve people's lives, and then they have one relationship or a handful of relationships that don't reciprocate.
00:18:59.740And so they think all relationships are like that.
00:19:02.780For me, it's been a matter of playing the law of large numbers.
00:19:07.300I'm willing to reciprocate knowing that a percentage of people never will in return.
00:19:12.060Or excuse me, I'm willing to add value to relationship knowing a percentage of people will not reciprocate because I know the people who do will more than make up for the investment and energy of my time and attention.
00:19:24.020Yeah, and I mean you put a great point there too because some people are going to be energy vampires and they're just going to suck it all right at you, which it's really funny.
00:19:35.960It's really fine though, and what I mean by that is some people just have more to give.
00:19:41.400Some people have a great reservoir of energy to give others, and it doesn't bother them whatsoever, but someone else's can be a lot lower, and so they might sit in judgment and say, hey, you're giving too much of this person.
00:19:52.020But maybe not to me because as long as it doesn't start flaring up the negative emotions, it's okay because what happens is when the negative emotions start creeping in, that means the relationship is turning unhealthy.
00:20:09.360And when it comes to – and you gave a great example of the love languages.
00:20:12.320If you happen to be someone who needs physical affection and the other person doesn't, part of this – I don't want to give the impression that this is all about mushy-gushy encounters and avoidance.
00:20:24.060This is about very pragmatic discussions and communication because if someone's not giving you what your needs are and it's starting to unbalance that equation, communicate it.
00:20:34.040Say, listen, here's – I've recognized X, Y, and Z.
00:20:44.820Are you interested in what I'm interested in and what I need to get out of the relationship?
00:20:49.080Again, you're not making it about yourself.
00:20:50.700You're asking them their opinion because we have these four golden keys of communication to make sure that when we're communicating the things and ideas that we want to, we need to keep the focus on them.
00:21:00.360And it's a very big challenge that a lot of us has because of our ego.
00:21:03.900But if you do this when you're communicating, one, you seek the thoughts and opinions of others instead of sharing your own.
00:21:09.200And in this case, instead of telling them here's what my needs are, you can ask them a question.
00:21:13.640Are you curious about what my needs are?
00:21:16.340And then the second is talk in terms of their challenges, priorities, and pain points instead of pontificating about yours.
00:21:22.960Three, this is the big one, nonjudgmental act of curiosity.
00:21:27.080The big word there being nonjudgmental.
00:21:30.400If someone is sharing thoughts, ideas, concerns that are important to them, the worst thing you do in the world for building an ally or at least having a productive conversation is to shut them down.
00:21:41.680Granted, it doesn't mean you have to agree with them.
00:21:43.520It means you're seeking to understand their context because believe it or not, I mean, everyone ask yourself this rhetorical question right now.
00:21:51.320Ask yourself, everything that you think and you tell the world and share with the world, whether it be in writing, email, or just a great conversation, you've probably given it a lot of thought, correct?
00:22:16.420It means you seek to understand how they came up with that, where are they taking information from.
00:22:20.360You know, Robert Greene's great book, Laws of Human Nature, says that as human beings, we constantly consume information that validates our own self-opinion.
00:22:29.480You know, Nelson Mandela wrote in 1963, as he's still locked in prison and he's just getting out, that he – and talk about media even back in 1963.
00:22:50.240So we consume information that validates our own self-opinion.
00:22:53.460And then the final thing of the four is to be empowering of choice.
00:22:57.400Give people choices because when you're doing these four things, the entire shift goes from you to them.
00:23:01.780And it's about – you can still package what it is you want to have said, what you want to do, but you can shift the focus from what you want to ask them what they think about what you want.
00:23:16.920Everybody should have this down and know – you know, listen to this hour-long podcast and you'll be a master in communication and building alliances.
00:23:25.540Well, I am glad too though that you said that where you're talking about that we seek information to validate our own opinion because as you were saying about listening to other people's ideas, in my mind immediately I was like, well, some people are dumb and some ideas are dumb.
00:23:39.380But that might be validated through my own lens and my own filter of information that I'm looking at that, especially when we're in a political climate like we are right now.
00:23:50.580But the reality is some people are dumb and some ideas are dumb and we ought to bring those things to light so we can expose them for the lunacy that they are.
00:24:42.280And James Cook, sailing, you know, circumnavigating the world three times.
00:24:47.580And you look at the evolution of our societies and you look at the politics and you look at all – even our own country.
00:24:54.480You know, you look at the time period of a civil war.
00:24:56.560I read Ulysses S. Grant's biography and then Stonewall Jackson's biography and then Empire of the Rising Sun, which is all about the Comanche at the same time period.
00:25:04.060You keep looking through history, and I guarantee you, there are much, much worse times in history, and A survived it too.
00:25:14.500So I'm a big believer in whatever system comes to be, you can hope for it to be the one that you want.
00:25:25.160I am a little – I'm going to push back on that a little bit because I am hesitant when we take that mentality because I think the benefit of taking that mentality is it keeps the control in your own purview.
00:25:39.420It's like I'm going to focus on the things I can control.
00:25:42.220But also there are pivotal moments throughout history.
00:25:44.820You know, I think of, for example, Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon and starting the Roman Civil War.
00:25:50.340It's like, okay, that was a very political, military action that changed the tide of millions of people over the course of history.
00:26:03.300How do you find the balance of focusing on what you can control but also being informed and being educated and impacting culture in a positive way, et cetera?
00:26:16.300That mentality I have keeps me staying positive because the most important thing, if you're going to solve problems, you have to stay positive.
00:26:28.760At the same time, I have that mentality so I don't sit here and stress and fret what any outcome will be.
00:26:35.580I also have a very preferred outcome because I don't – I see definite actions if something – if someone's elected – and I'm a behaviorist.
00:27:06.720I take a larger perspective in moments when the outcome doesn't go the way I think is prudent for nation states.
00:27:17.240And I'll say nation states because, yeah, nation states are affected hugely by types of elections like this.
00:27:23.960And so when you can – I do this with my kids all the time.
00:27:29.080Again, if you gave it your all, you threw everything you had on the table, and whatever outcome happens, it happens.
00:27:35.280And then from that point on, you have to work whatever system has presented you for the safety, security, and prosperity for yourself and those you care about.
00:27:41.880And so I take that larger view of doing all I can, throwing my cards on the table, throwing all the effort on the table to do what I think will be in the best interest of humanity and preventing chaos.
00:27:52.260At the same time, though, in order to stay positive and problem-solve whatever faces me and those people in my life, my circle of influence, that's how I maintain positivity, knowing that no matter what happens, we as a species will survive.
00:28:33.660Yeah, that makes sense, and I think it's hard for people to acknowledge and recognize that our form of government or our way of life may change over – not may, it will change over time too.
00:28:42.760It's just a matter of when and how, not if that will happen.
00:28:46.700Are – do you – speaking of the politics conversation, are there conversations that should be off limits or you should at least to some degree be aware of how you approach those things?
00:28:58.480Obviously, the perfect examples are politics, religion, very polarizing issues, and secondary to that, when and how do you start bringing that into the relationships that you have, whether it's platonic or romantic or professional?
00:29:18.720Now, the way I – first of all, when it comes to politics, religion, all these things, I tend to view them as a small part of the whole of the individual I'm talking to because I don't want to – me personally, I will not ruin a healthy relationship with someone because of a small part of how they're thinking.
00:29:38.580I do this because literally the small part.
00:29:40.420I mean so what someone politically thinks really has manifested itself in the last couple of years, really, because before this, nobody's literally thinking nearly as much about this, right?
00:29:49.900So you take this last little thing right here, put that aside if it's positive or negative, and I'll tend – I will always try to focus on all these other things over here first.
00:29:59.580And then the other thing I'm assessing too about the types of conversations I can have with someone is I'm going into is someone emotional about this or are they pragmatic about it because the emotional brain, which media feeds into the emotional brain because when people have an emotional response to something, they're going to tune in because when they tune in, it's going to validate their own self-emotional opinion, which sells ad space.
00:30:22.120You sell ad space, they get more money.
00:30:23.960So I literally – when you understand the matrix behind the – the code behind the matrix, you can sit here and really think about how do I need to engage with someone else.
00:30:32.460And so what I'm doing is I'm assessing is this person emotionally attached to how they're thinking about this – the political challenge or religion or anything else or are they pragmatically thinking about it?
00:30:45.960They will – you'll see high emotions, anger, or a flare-up, a quick response rapidly instead of taking a couple seconds to really think about what it is you said, think about it, and then come back and ask you a question.
00:30:58.920In other words, if someone starts telling me what they think, I'm most likely dealing with someone more emotional, and I'm going to back away from the topic.
00:31:05.760If someone starts asking me more about what I think and their verbals are congruent with their nonverbals, they're saying they're genuinely curious, then that's someone I can start touching a little bit closer, a little bit closer, a little bit deeper on the conversation side.
00:31:22.680So I'm very cautious on not engaging someone who's emotionally engaged in one of these topics.
00:31:28.320Man, I'm going to pause the conversation just very briefly.
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00:32:55.060But as a behavioral analysis, can't you look at somebody's perspective on, let's say, politics, for example, since we're on that vein, and make some assessments with some accuracy about the way that they view their life?
00:33:11.300But I would say that there are opinions and perspectives that people have regarding politics where you could make some other assumptions and be right 90% of the time.
00:33:26.460And so a lot of times when you get data – so data points with every human being in their behavior give us data points on their behavior arcs, as I call it, life arcs.
00:33:35.640And as you start taking in these data points, and that happens through the language they use, the way they're interacting, one of the easiest data points to kind of take in to assess is, is someone a wound collector?
00:33:46.680And do they have a victim mentality or are they problem solvers?
00:34:00.100Yeah, wound collectors – Joe Navarro talks about it in his book Dangerous Personalities, a good friend of mine.
00:34:04.220And what wound collectors are, they're the type of people in your life when something happens, they don't take it as just the way the universe is interacting with you around you.
00:34:14.480You can't control anything that happens.
00:34:17.120In other words, if you're on a hunt and something doesn't go your way, the animal doesn't cross your path, it doesn't come in to your line of fire, whatever the situation is, you don't say to yourself, damn animal, they suck.
00:35:25.720If someone is a wound collector or has a victim mentality in one area of their life, they're going to manifest it in a lot of other areas of their lives.
00:35:57.260Anyone who's placing blame on someone else for the situation is not someone who owns it because – well, just relate it to great leadership.
00:36:08.740That's the only thing I'm looking for.
00:36:10.040Matter of fact, we get door knockers coming to my neighborhood all the time.
00:36:13.780We had a challenge in my neighborhood with a business that was moving in that was not good for kids.
00:36:19.300This was – I'm not going to say what business it was.
00:36:21.720But it was a business that was like a block from our house, like half a mile or a quarter mile from our elementary school that was not good for our community.
00:36:30.040And here's our politician knocking on my front door looking for my vote.
00:36:33.600And my only response was, what specifically are you doing about this problem?
00:36:45.780If you can't tell me what specifically you're going to do, who you're going to call, and what you're going to do to remedy this problem, you don't have my vote because leaders solve problems.
00:37:07.520They create a safe environment for people to innovate, and they're resources for other people's success without expectation or reciprocity.
00:37:22.100They solve problems, and they're safe.
00:37:23.700That safe one is the one I think a lot of people overlook.
00:37:25.960I have in my life where I'm emotionally volatile, and I may react rather than respond, and then people don't feel comfortable coming to me with issues and concerns because they don't know which version of me they're going to get.
00:37:36.780Yeah, Ryan, you just hit a beautiful thing there.
00:37:39.280So the behavior is a trust because you don't accomplish anything in life.
00:37:42.160We don't build allies, and we don't innovate through problems and let people feel safe because our genetics, biology, and evolution says that, again, we are predictable because we're always going to act in our own best interest.
00:37:53.160As I said, safety, security, and prosperity for ourselves and those we care about in our lives.
00:37:58.280Some people circle as they're very, very pragmatic.
00:38:01.160I mean they're very entrepreneurial, and they spread that goodness out as far as they can.
00:38:08.020But the bedrock of everything is ask yourself what can you do to inspire someone to feel safe with you because no one is going to take an action with you.
00:38:17.600No one is going to listen to what it is you have to say.
00:38:19.500No one is going to lie with you unless they feel safe with you, and the behaviors are safe.
00:38:23.040They're really simple, open and honest communication, transparency, and vulnerability.
00:38:30.020And so whatever political spectrum you fall on, assess the people that you're voting for and ask yourself how open and honest are they, how transparent are they, and how vulnerable are they?
00:38:40.780And are they solving problems or are they blame placers?
00:38:43.060And you're going to see some problems on both sides.
00:38:47.480But then when you actually – but if you start adding up the scores, then you can make your own assessment about what it is you want to do.
00:38:53.340So can I put you on the spot with something here?
00:38:55.060With your background, I think you might have some insight for us on this.
00:38:59.920Would you be willing to give us some – from your perspective, I'm assuming you don't know Kamala Harris or Donald Trump personally.
00:39:07.360But would you be willing to give us some examples of redeeming qualities in each and some qualities that you would consider character defects?
00:39:19.200I'll start with the character defects of both first.
00:39:25.420Kamala Harris can't get over saying how everything that's going wrong in the administration world in the country is all Donald Trump's fault.
00:39:32.000And Donald Trump can't get over of calling her the stupidest person ever running for office and that Hillary Clinton was much dumber, even though crooked Hillary.
00:39:39.200So they're really good at calling each other dumb and placing the blame on each other.
00:40:09.820Her redeeming qualities would be if she would get – when she's not on script and can be genuine and organic about what she actually – she keeps mentioning her values and that these are her values.
00:40:21.100Well, when she can stay on her values and not listen to a script given to her, she is very on point and very good because – think about this.
00:40:43.780I think she's got probably very good interpersonal skills with individuals one-on-one more than in the group mentality because it just gets derailed sometimes.
00:40:53.460And so they both have both sides of the coin going I think.
00:40:57.380I think you could make that argument for both because I think Trump is better one-on-one than he is in large places as well.
00:41:04.560And I think one thing that Trump has done well – and this is a pivot based on what you said that I've seen in the past where he takes criticism or opportunities and he makes light of them, makes fun of it in a positive way I would say, and also just has an enjoyable time with it.
00:41:20.720You think about him in the garbage truck and he wore his orange vest for the entire thing.
00:41:26.160To me, he took what he normally would have been combative with and flipped it around and made it a positive, funny, lighthearted moment where he even used self-deprecating humor, calling himself fat and old.
00:41:40.400It was a little bit more endearing than you've seen in the past from him.
00:41:43.800Yeah, more Ronald Reagan-esque with the self-deprecating humor.
00:41:46.540And so believe it or not – so what I assess with both of them and any individual is let go of what media shows you on both because all media is going to slant into what their audience wants, right?
00:42:02.180Look at how they interact with the people in their lives closest to them.
00:42:05.600So you look at both candidates and looking at the DNC and watching the RNC conventions.
00:42:11.780Just look at Kamala Harris and how she interacted with her husband and her closest staff.
00:42:17.320And then you can really assess a lot because those are the people that know these people best and you're going to see the reactions they have towards them.
00:42:24.700And so then when you looked at the RNC and how Donald Trump had his grandchildren – his littlest grandchild sitting on his lap, not by him putting them there but by them wanting to be there.
00:42:36.680And then Kamala Harris with her husband.
00:42:38.780So you can really assess how someone is really as a human being by those closest to them, unscripted, uncommercialized, just those moments.
00:42:49.860And so those are what I'm always looking – I'm always looking for those granular moments of the real person underneath the media facade because that will always be the best indicator of anything.
00:42:59.360Sometimes that can be a challenge because, to your point, it is so scripted.
00:43:10.500And that's what they do and they're trying to communicate a persona that they think their customer or their audience wants, to your point earlier.
00:43:17.680You know, unfortunately, anytime we want to assess behavior, it's best to always try to get as much data points and ground truth on anyone before the current event happens.
00:43:31.060And so as soon as – like it's challenging with Donald Trump because most of the books he wrote, he wrote for his own fame and glory at any point in his life.
00:43:42.840There's not an objective biography out there on him of his life story that I've found.
00:44:24.000It was pretty close to the book, but read his book because that book was written as – just as he got out of Yale University and just before he went into business.
00:44:33.700So that is the core data points on his life arc and who he is.
00:44:37.840And so here's where it's also really good too where you can just sit and assess.
00:44:41.100So you read the ground truth of any politician or any human being and you will get your own ground knowledge of these individuals.
00:44:51.420And then when you hear other people talking about them, you're going to be able to assess are they pontificating from a talking point or are they actually talking because they know the individual and did their deeper research?
00:45:03.680And so when you read source material – again, I'm an intelligence officer.
00:45:08.620We didn't listen to what was written in the newspaper, although it gives you places to inform.
00:45:13.120You went to ground truth, always looking for ground truth because ground truth will be your best guide.
00:45:18.080And so anytime someone comes into politics, anytime someone's coming into any position anywhere, I'm looking for the best ground truth I can.
00:45:24.760As soon as he announced J.D. Vance – I hadn't heard of J.D. Vance.
00:45:27.880First thing I did was I went to Amazon and I said, what books have we got out there?
00:45:32.600And then I did the same thing with Harris and her – and what's his face?
00:45:39.180I'm looking for ground truth because ground truth will be my assessment of not just them as individuals but the people talking about them so I can assess them as well.
00:45:49.320It is interesting with the J.D. Vance phenomenon and then I want to get away from politics and the real practical application here.
00:45:54.760Yeah, I know. I've never talked as much about it, so I hope we're not turning everyone off.
00:46:24.180Now, it was – okay, I didn't know who it was.
00:46:26.900So I mean you're talking about a huge cultural phenomenon here from that book and that story.
00:46:31.840And then he is announced as Trump's running mate and all of a sudden he's a horrible, no-good piece of garbage.
00:46:38.660And so that to me is a representation of – is him being a horrible person really accurate when it just flipped just because they are now sitting on the opposite side of your political aisle?
00:46:50.040Yeah, I think people – when you see a flip happen like that, the people that do the flip, they – it's hard for them to maintain credibility of what they think and what they're sharing because they're not being intellectually honest.
00:47:02.540I mean because you can't think such positive things about someone on one day and then the next day completely flip everything even though no data points have changed whatsoever.
00:47:13.220So how do you – how do you take this ability for ground information, let's say, really getting to know people behind who they're trying to put out as their persona?
00:47:26.520Because there's environments whether you're on a date for the first time or you're looking to hire a potential employee, you've got to get to that quickly.
00:47:35.460What are some points and some things that we can do to really find out who a person is very fast?
00:47:41.960The things – so I'm going to go to gut feeling here and I'm going to define what gut feeling is because gut feeling, when you actually can make it a little more pragmatic, can be, I think, one of your best guides.
00:47:53.560Some people say I'm just really good at reading people or I'm really good at assessing someone really rapidly.
00:47:58.840No, you don't have some super spidey senses or skill set.
00:48:02.080What you're doing is you're able to rapidly be very present and observation, an observationist.
00:48:07.260Because what we're seeing is what I'm always looking for is I'm looking for congruency.
00:48:11.860I'm looking for a congruency of the words coming out of their mouth, their word choice of what they're doing, and the congruency of their body language along with it.
00:48:33.240They can talk about themselves a bit, but I want to hear things where they're curious about me as well.
00:48:37.440And if it's all about me, that's even better.
00:48:39.560If it's all about me, me, me, me, in other words, are they a me-former rather than an informer, that's telling me a lot.
00:48:46.160And if what I'm looking for those, I'm looking for the nonverbal congruence.
00:48:49.800And so if someone is actually making the conversation about me by seeking my thoughts and opinions, talking about me nonjudgmentally, validating me, giving me choices, that's fantastic.
00:49:00.240What I should see with that nonverbally is open, honest communication, eyebrow elevation, smiling, high comfort displays.
00:49:09.580In other words, if someone is really all about me, they're going to be excited and uplifted about sharing these things about me, about asking me about me, being curious.
00:49:17.520In other words, Ryan, you're telling me about the hunting trip you went on with your son.
00:50:05.320I'm looking for how revealing they are, how open, how transparent they are.
00:50:08.740If I'm asking a question, if they brought up, if something comes out of their mouth, like one of the questions I'd love is like, what was that spark and inspiration, Ryan, all those years ago to be who you are today?
00:50:19.400I should have some open data points right away about, hey, I grew up here.
00:50:34.840Tell me more about what it was like when you did this.
00:50:37.340What I should have is that on that same tempo, the same level of transparency and openness and vulnerability.
00:50:42.840Vulnerability mean, hey, here's when things went a little sideways and I did my best to mitigate it, very much like we were talking about with the self-deprecating humor.
00:50:49.860Only people who are self-secure in themselves will do that.
00:50:52.420And so I should have that same tempo of everything with the transparency I'm seeking based off of what you already shared.
00:50:59.780Now, if someone actually starts shutting down, if I say, hey, tell me a little bit more about this if you're comfortable with it.
00:51:04.920If I go, yeah, well, now we start getting a little incongruence and makes me a little – it gives me – I call it – it gives me a red flag.
00:51:26.460I don't say that you're a bad person or anything.
00:51:28.040I just say we have someone who's not willing to have a healthy relationship with me in this lane.
00:51:32.300I need to back off a little bit here because there's something going on here and I don't want to guess at what it is, but it's not going to be good.
00:51:39.840I really like the idea of congruency in your words and your behavior.
00:51:43.720I remember this was years and years ago, more than a decade ago, and I had somebody that I was working with.
00:51:50.400I was in financial planning, and this person was in the financial business as well, and they said, hey, I want to introduce you to the gentleman who runs our organization.
00:52:01.200So he introduced me to him, and I sat down, and the gentleman said all the right things.
00:52:06.340He was very curious, very interested, asking the right questions, seemed like very genuine, but then he started taking notes, and so he had this notepad out, and he would ask me, he's like, so where are you from?
00:52:19.060And he would write it down, and he's like, how many kids do you have?
00:52:22.280And then he would write it down, and I'm like, finally, I was like, what are you doing?
00:52:53.900During all our training, even for FBI agents, the last thing you want to do is take notes during an interview because, one, it's very distracting.
00:53:02.420Two, you're showing exactly what you're doing.
00:53:08.080Try this on your own if you're watching and listening to this.
00:53:11.180If you have nothing to say, you will remember everything the other person says.
00:53:16.520When we're having a conversation with someone, 99% of the time is as they're sharing a thought, opinion, idea, or an anecdote of what they've done in their lives, our brain is automatically coming up with a way to make a connection.
00:53:30.660We have our own anecdote, our own story, things that – and now our brain is now focused on what it is we want to say and not what I'm there saying.
00:53:38.680And so we are waiting for a pause so we can interrupt or interject our own thoughts and opinions.
00:53:44.620And when we're thinking about what it is we want to say, we're not remembering what it is Ryan's saying.
00:53:48.500So for yourself, the first time you do this, I guarantee it's going to be the weirdest feeling in your own brain that you'll ever have but the rewards you're going to be profoundly impacted by.
00:53:59.100The first – the next conversation you have with someone, they're sharing an anecdote or story.
00:54:50.480What's so fascinating to me about the power of asking questions is that it's – let me say it this way.
00:54:58.440I think a lot of people are trying to posture and position for credibility, authority, influence with other people.
00:55:03.980And so they think if I make this about me and show off my credentials and talk about how wonderful I am, then I'm on this pedestal.
00:55:11.500I found the exact opposite to be true.
00:55:13.880The more interested I am in a person and the better, more poignant questions I ask, the more credibility or influence that person is willing to lend me.
00:55:22.420But it's completely opposite of what most people think and do.
00:55:50.020And that person and you remembers that moment for a very long time and the answer given.
00:55:55.540And so that's what makes the greatest impact with each other, with human beings is when someone – and those moments only happen when you're deeply present for the other person.
00:56:04.500It's the greatest – I talk about this all the time.
00:56:06.260It is the greatest gift you can give another human being is to be present for them.
00:56:12.760Just there for them because that is building more credibility than anything else in the world with that individual.
00:56:18.960That person – I mean think about it.
00:56:20.420That person who you had that response from, you could have an ask from them 15 years later and be like, yeah, Ryan, anything you want.
00:56:28.940I mean seriously, Ryan, again, 2020 is our last conversation.
00:56:32.460When this book was coming out and my publicist comes to me and says, hey, do you have a list of people who show you want to get back to – you were the very first one at the very top.
00:56:43.320Great conversation because you made it about me.
00:56:45.700With your work as – in the FBI, behavioral analysis, what exactly was the work that you were doing?
00:56:54.760I mean when you're talking about analyzing people's behaviors and their patterns, are these potential criminals, suspects, people in the FBI itself that you're trying to train?
00:57:05.860Like what is it that you were doing there?
00:57:34.000Nothing – no matter what anyone in the media has ever said in the last bunch of years, they were doing nothing new than they've always done before.
00:57:40.680They've improved – technology has improved, but they've always used active measures against the U.S.
00:58:35.500We were strategizing recruitment operations as the highest level, and then we're strategizing interview operations, double agent operations, false flags, all the hooky, spooky spy stuff.
00:58:46.040And we came in, and we looked at the human being that my case agents need to have a human interaction with, whether it was to offer them an opportunity to provide – be a resource to the United States government and do what I call the toughest sales job in the world, selling American patriotism to a Russian spy.
00:59:02.560Every now and then, you do have someone who wants to buy that.
00:59:04.620So we're strategizing these human engagements.
00:59:07.620Believe it or not, half the time when I was going in and helping a case agent assess how to have a great conversation and offer a resource that can solve a challenge, priority, or pain point in a potential spy's life and then trust them with their lives, that's what we do every day in life.
00:59:23.980Can we be a resource to someone else, and can they trust us with their life?
00:59:27.020And I was then strategizing, how do you inspire management, these case agents' bosses, to say yes to the operation?
00:59:35.920Because if they don't get yes, they're not going to do it.
00:59:38.820And so how can you inspire a boss to say yes?
00:59:41.720They have to feel safe that this operation I'm proposing to a case agent do, it's not going to kill their career.
00:59:47.040I was strategizing trust nonstop, inside, outside, upside down, because pitching an intelligence officer to cooperate in the United States government is the last hurdle you face when doing this.
01:00:04.080The first and biggest hurdles is the approval to do it.
01:00:09.600Yeah, and there's a lot of moving parts, I imagine, and a lot of self-interest that you need to make sure are aligned.
01:00:17.020Yeah, and the greatest challenge there is to not judge the decision process of the bosses.
01:00:23.820In other words, if people were careerists and they're afraid to say yes to an operation because they're a careerist, they didn't want to hurt their operation, I can't judge that.
01:00:29.780Because that's going to hinder me trying to do this.
01:00:32.400You know, again, going back to Leif Babin and Jocko with Lincoln and dichotomy and leadership, Leif would come back with these – Leif was the platoon commander, Jocko was the detachment commander over in Ramadi, I think it was.
01:00:45.320And they were doing this operation, and they put in the proposal to get the operation done, high-end operation, high-speed, low-drag, going to go in, kill the bad guys, get the good guys out.
01:00:54.820And they put in their proposal, and it got shot down by higher command.
01:00:58.020And Leif is like, bitch, and he's moaning, he's complaining, how come blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah, and all Jocko did was, hey, shut up, man.
01:01:40.480What can you do to make them feel safe?
01:01:43.260So you're not judging their motives, but you certainly want to discern what those motives are though because then it gives you the ammo that you need to propose a solution that will make them feel comfortable enough in saying yes.
01:02:18.140And so it was very challenging for me to come out of that environment and understand that some people are – now, granted, they don't think they are, but they are career-oriented.
01:02:31.880You have people that care about that next promotion.
01:02:35.020If your operation is going to undermine the potential for the next promotion, then they're probably going to say no.
01:02:40.880I was judging that for a long time, and with me judging it, what started happening?
01:02:57.220You're undermining trust in the things that you want to build.
01:02:59.300Again, it goes back to if I could tell my 20-year-old self something to be more successful would have been, what can I do to make my boss's job a little bit easier?
01:03:06.900What can I do to be a greater resource to the people on my squad?
01:03:10.400Get off yourself and what it is you want to accomplish.
01:03:13.840Figure out what other people are trying to do.
01:03:16.540That way, when you have an ask, of course they're going to support you.
01:03:19.120It's funny that you said that because that's what was going through my mind because we have a lot of men who will ask and say, you know, I have this boss, and he's a jerk, or he's not letting me do this, and I have no autonomy in my whatever.
01:03:31.720Fill in your gripe of choice, and the answer is, I think, just what you said.
01:03:39.580If you make him look good and he knows that whatever you do, it's going to fall on him and he's going to look good, he's not going to say no to that.
01:03:46.640100% of the time, he will say yes to that.
01:04:01.220If you are the type of person that your ego is so big that you can't stand to make it about someone else other than yourself and what it is you want to do and communicate in terms of what they need to feel safe, fine.
01:04:13.480See, to me, there's no right or wrong in this.
01:04:16.640If you do not want to be of value to someone else and allow them to feel safe with you as a partner and you as a team member that's going to accomplish the mission that you want to accomplish, I can guarantee you what's going to happen.
01:04:39.780So because they now have a negative affect towards you, do you think that's the only person that it impacts is that one person that thinks about this you?
01:04:48.080Everyone that communicates in their circle of influence is now going to have leakage about what this person thinks about you.
01:04:53.980So your personal brand is now starting to go down the toilet.
01:04:57.240Not just that, but everyone you now interact with in your social circle that might value you, that you value them, you're now going to have negative leakage on them, a negative halo going.
01:05:07.580So just because you decided that you're going to stand your ground and not support the bosses, whatever makes them feel unsafe, the negative effect not just on you but everyone in your own circle is going to be profound.