Order of Man - November 15, 2022


SATHIYA SAM ｜ Breaking Pornography Addiction for Good

Topics
overcoming pornography addiction pornography addiction confessing pornography addiction betrayal trauma last relapse book
Hosted by
Ryan Michler
Guests
SATHIYA SAM
Mentioned
Sathya Sam Jordan Peterson Cynthia Sathya Sam S Pamela Anderson Jed Malcor Terry Cruz Nicholas
Mindsets of Masculine Leadership ｜ FRIDAY FIELD NOTES Being Amicable with Your Ex, How Proactivity Sets You up for Success, and How You Know You're Following God's Path ｜ ASK ME ANYTHING

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 2 minutes

Words per minute

205.67

Word count

12,946

Sentence count

846

Harmful content

Misogyny

15

sentences flagged

Toxicity

30

sentences flagged

Hate speech

10

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Sathya Sam has worked with thousands of men over the past four years to finally overcome their destructive addiction. He specializes in working with men specifically as it relates to their addictive nature and habits. In this episode, we talk about the three greatest obstacles to overcoming pornography addiction, how viewing pornography is often a symptom of a deeper problem, why safety, intimacy, and significance lie at the root of this addiction, and why traditional methods of overcoming pornography don t work.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.160 Serious pornography addiction is something millions and millions of men are currently
00:00:03.980 dealing with.
00:00:05.000 Many of these men know their addiction has gotten out of hand, and yet they cannot seem
00:00:09.700 to find a way to break the shackles of pornography.
00:00:12.480 My guest today has worked with thousands of men over the last four years to finally overcome
00:00:16.760 their destructive addiction once and for all.
00:00:20.120 His name is Sathya Sam, and today we talk about the three greatest obstacles to overcoming
00:00:25.000 addiction, how viewing pornography is often a symptom of a deeper problem.
00:00:30.000 Why safety, intimacy, and significance lie at the root of this addiction, why traditional
00:00:35.340 methods of overcoming pornography don't work, and three pillars every man needs to establish
00:00:40.460 if he hopes to finally free himself from porn.
00:00:42.920 You're a man of action.
00:00:44.420 You live life to the fullest.
00:00:45.860 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
00:00:48.780 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.
00:00:52.840 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.
00:00:58.260 This is your life.
00:00:59.040 This is who you are.
00:01:00.740 This is who you will become at the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you
00:01:05.620 can call yourself a man.
00:01:07.600 Gentlemen, what is going on today?
00:01:09.120 My name is Ryan Michler.
00:01:10.540 I'm your host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement.
00:01:15.200 Welcome here today.
00:01:16.760 We've got an incredible conversation on a topic that a lot of men need to hear about.
00:01:22.700 Now, I will say this.
00:01:23.800 If you have young kids, sensitive ears in the car or wherever you might be listening
00:01:29.840 to this, we do get into some sensitive subjects that may not be appropriate for some people.
00:01:36.720 So just want to throw that disclaimer out there.
00:01:38.440 And if you're wondering what it is we talk about, obviously, you know, the title of the
00:01:43.920 episode should give it away.
00:01:45.040 I just want to throw that disclaimer out there.
00:01:46.580 And maybe you want to go back and listen to this one when it's just you.
00:01:50.040 So just throw that disclaimer out there.
00:01:51.820 If you're not familiar with what we're doing here at Order of Man, it's my job to give you
00:01:55.060 the tools and conversations and resources you need to thrive as a man, a father, a husband,
00:02:01.920 a business owner, a community leader, just a man in general.
00:02:05.280 And to that end, we have this podcast and we've got our exclusive Brotherhood, the Iron
00:02:09.100 Council, and we've got events.
00:02:10.720 And I also have a new book out called the Masculinity Manifesto, which you can pick up
00:02:16.380 wherever you get books.
00:02:18.380 Actually, I'll give you a better resource for it right now.
00:02:21.280 We have signed copies available in our store at store.orderofman.com.
00:02:26.900 So again, signed copies there.
00:02:28.140 We also have an exclusive edition with a custom leather bound cover, a custom leather bookmark,
00:02:36.700 a hand-turned wooden pen from my friend here, Jed Malcor here in Maine, and a signed note
00:02:44.760 card as well.
00:02:45.680 That's the exclusive edition.
00:02:46.960 So the signed copy and or the exclusive edition are available in our store at store.orderofman.com.
00:02:54.080 All right, guys, let me introduce you to my guest.
00:02:56.400 Uh, this is a gentleman I was just recently introduced to, but his work is really something
00:03:01.500 that I know millions of men need to hear and get involved with.
00:03:04.740 His name is Sathya Sam, and he specializes in working with men specifically as it relates
00:03:10.400 to their addictive nature and habits.
00:03:12.120 Over the past four years, he has created a program called deep clean to help thousands
00:03:16.320 of men stamp out their pornography addiction.
00:03:18.580 And he's also the author of the last relapse, realize your potential reclaim intimacy and resolve
00:03:25.760 the root issues of pornography addiction.
00:03:28.840 In fact, he's giving away a free copy of that.
00:03:30.500 So you have to listen in, uh, or you can go to the show notes on this and click the link
00:03:34.220 and get your free copy guys.
00:03:36.280 I know this, uh, conversation has needed to happen, uh, for a long time, and I'm glad we're
00:03:41.060 able to bring it to you.
00:03:42.260 I hope it helps.
00:03:42.800 Sathya, what's up, man?
00:03:45.680 Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
00:03:47.440 It's a pleasure to be here, Ryan.
00:03:48.760 Thanks so much.
00:03:49.820 This is the first time we've connected, but, uh, we have a mutual friend, uh, Nicholas who
00:03:54.680 introduced us and I'm glad he did because some of the topics that you cover specifically
00:03:59.700 as it relates to pornography and overcoming that addiction is something that so many men
00:04:05.920 are struggling with and so many men really have the desire to put the porn down.
00:04:11.940 Yeah.
00:04:12.520 Uh, it's insane.
00:04:14.180 It's just insane how much of a problem it is.
00:04:16.300 And I think a lot of people like me, I mean, I was addicted for 15 years and we can get
00:04:20.540 into all of that if you want, but a lot of people are just lost, like no idea how to
00:04:24.340 actually get this out of their life if they wanted to.
00:04:26.180 And so, yeah, so it's a big mission, but, um, I'm, I'm grateful for people like you that
00:04:30.320 are willing to go here and talk about it a little bit.
00:04:32.740 Well, it's not a comfortable conversation, you know, and, and so many guys know that
00:04:38.160 they are addicted, that it's a problem.
00:04:40.120 Uh, they know some of the, the negative consequences and results from that.
00:04:44.180 And yet we still don't want to talk about it because there's a lot of shame and guilt
00:04:49.080 around it.
00:04:50.380 So we don't ever address it.
00:04:52.680 Yeah.
00:04:53.220 Yeah.
00:04:53.540 I mean, so like when I was struggling, I was a pastor's kid.
00:04:56.760 I grew up Christian.
00:04:58.080 Um, for those of you watching the video, you can tell I have an Indian background.
00:05:01.060 And so layers of shame of just like all the reasons to not, never talk about sex, never
00:05:06.880 talk about anything kind of related to this sort of stuff.
00:05:09.020 And so I get it, you know, for the people that are listening, I've been there.
00:05:11.640 I was there a long time, just wrapped in the shame and seemingly no way out.
00:05:16.340 So how old are you?
00:05:17.440 If you don't mind me asking.
00:05:18.900 I'm 32.
00:05:20.160 Okay.
00:05:20.480 So a few years younger than me, you're about, about 10 years younger than me.
00:05:23.800 Um, how did you get introduced first to pornography?
00:05:27.080 Cause for me, I remember the first time I ever, I think that I can remember anyways,
00:05:31.740 that I saw pornography and, and this isn't pornography, but I remember moving down that
00:05:36.340 path was like the Sears, you know, lingerie catalog that my mom would get or something.
00:05:42.380 And then I think at some point, I, one of my buddies maybe had like a Pamela Anderson
00:05:49.560 playboy or, you know, something like that, that I saw.
00:05:53.360 And then of course, with digital and internet and technology, it just has become rampant
00:05:59.080 outside of just the magazines that we used to have to steal from the gas station.
00:06:04.320 Yeah.
00:06:04.440 Yeah.
00:06:04.600 How old were you when you saw that Sears magazine?
00:06:07.320 I was when I, Oh, that I was, I don't know, probably 12, 13, 14 years old.
00:06:11.920 I think I probably saw that, that, uh, playboy when I was probably about the same time, I
00:06:17.300 would say 13, 14 years old, somewhere right in there.
00:06:19.900 Yeah.
00:06:20.220 Yeah.
00:06:20.420 Okay.
00:06:20.620 So I was 11 years old and, uh, it happened for me in the computer lab of my Christian school.
00:06:25.240 If you can believe that my buddy was like, he just came over, he was like, Hey, um,
00:06:29.280 one of my teammates, he played like high level soccer.
00:06:31.480 And he was like, one of my teammates told me to check out this website.
00:06:33.860 I won't say what it is.
00:06:34.820 It's still a pornographic website, unfortunately, but very innocent sounding.
00:06:38.100 You would never know in a million years and typed it in.
00:06:41.480 I did not, I didn't even understand what I was looking at, but I was in a public place,
00:06:45.760 uh, obviously the computer lab.
00:06:47.500 And it was back in the day when the computer monitors had that big, like circular power
00:06:50.900 button.
00:06:51.460 And I remember just trying to bash that thing in as quickly as I could before anybody
00:06:55.360 saw what I was looking at.
00:06:56.660 Like it was, it was a really weird experience.
00:06:58.980 Um, I was kind of confused, but obviously like just pre puberty.
00:07:02.340 So, uh, enough intrigue that by the time I did hit puberty, I remembered the site and
00:07:07.280 that's, that was kind of my gateway into a much longer struggle with it.
00:07:11.280 The interesting thing though, just like to relay this back to your story, the average
00:07:15.900 age of first exposure hasn't really changed.
00:07:18.020 Maybe it's a tad younger, but most studies show it's like nine to 13 years old.
00:07:22.040 The difference is the barrier to entry.
00:07:24.280 Cause like for you to get that magazine, right.
00:07:26.360 And then to go back to it, like it, it would have taken work effort, a bit of planning.
00:07:31.220 I used to have to plan.
00:07:32.280 Like even when I was 12, 13 years old and I started watching more regularly, like I,
00:07:36.060 I was watching on the computer and the one computer in the entire house.
00:07:40.100 Right.
00:07:40.380 So there was like a little bit more costs to basically get there.
00:07:44.560 And now, as you're saying, like, it's so accessible, doesn't cost people any money
00:07:48.820 and you can stay anonymous while you're watching it.
00:07:50.980 Those three A's, the affordability, accessibility, and anonymity, those three A's make it rampant, 0.76
00:07:56.240 like you're saying.
00:07:56.880 And they're, they're really messing up people's brains when they start to enter adulthood.
00:08:01.220 What, so what is, I mean, it's clear why.
00:08:05.900 Okay.
00:08:06.220 Well, let me, let me back up a little bit because here's one of the issues I have, not, not
00:08:10.040 issues, but the questions is a lot of the times, and you've even written about what is
00:08:14.900 the root problem of pornography addiction.
00:08:18.000 And if I'm just from the outside looking in and, and also, you know, obviously viewing
00:08:22.800 pornography myself, sometimes I don't know if there's a root problem necessarily, other
00:08:29.060 than there's these hot women that guys want to see naked. 1.00
00:08:31.680 Like that to me is enough, right?
00:08:34.200 So is there always a root problem that is causing these issues for guys or is it just
00:08:39.960 our, we're horny?
00:08:41.720 Yeah, it's a little bit of both.
00:08:43.380 I mean, I think, I think generally there is something more at a root level going on if
00:08:47.680 you can't get away from it.
00:08:49.080 I think that's always the telltale sign is when you can't abstain or when you start to
00:08:53.700 engage in riskier behavior to get your hit, when you start to decline regular commitments
00:08:58.380 in your life so that you can watch, um, if you lose a job over it, like when things start
00:09:03.680 to get a little bit more serious or it's affecting performance in the bedroom, those are the telltale
00:09:08.000 signs that this is no longer just like something you do because you're a guy and you have
00:09:11.540 a sex drive, there's, there's some deeper roots here that are at play.
00:09:15.120 That's interesting.
00:09:15.840 So you said some symptoms would be declining, uh, invitations you would normally say yes
00:09:22.260 to, uh, job performance, potentially even losing a job because you viewed something on
00:09:28.100 a computer you shouldn't have, uh, performance issues in the bedroom.
00:09:32.020 Is there anything else that might be a symptom that guys should be aware of that it's becoming
00:09:35.440 a problem?
00:09:35.940 Yeah.
00:09:36.700 Maybe the biggest one is actually desensitization.
00:09:39.580 So that's when you either need to watch more frequently, um, for longer periods of time or
00:09:45.120 more intense content to get the same hit.
00:09:48.440 That's, that's a sign that things are going in the wrong direction.
00:09:51.120 That's a good point because it becomes increasingly perverse or even violent, uh, for guys to get
00:09:58.880 the same dopamine release.
00:10:01.020 I imagine is, is what it is, is the dopamine release that comes from either climax or just
00:10:05.920 viewing it in general.
00:10:08.180 A hundred percent.
00:10:08.740 And that's why you hear stories about like a Ted Bundy or someone was telling me the other
00:10:12.280 day, I don't have this verified, but they said they surveyed a bunch of people in a jail.
00:10:15.720 And a lot of them, when you, when you start talking to them about when they really start
00:10:19.940 to act out, most of it pointed back to pornography.
00:10:23.020 And sometimes it's because of the stuff that they're, that's being depicted in the more extreme
00:10:27.080 content.
00:10:28.080 And then eventually when you get desensitized, you know, it just, it doesn't do it for you.
00:10:32.280 So then they start to engage physically with other people instead of just watching on a
00:10:35.780 screen.
00:10:36.420 Obviously those are extreme scenarios, but it illustrates the principle.
00:10:40.280 Is there any sort of research or data that suggests or shows a correlation between, um,
00:10:46.780 a young man, a boy being exposed to or addicted to pornography and the lack or presence of a father
00:10:55.000 figure in the home?
00:10:55.660 Um, that's a really good question.
00:10:58.700 Um, I don't know of any data along those lines.
00:11:02.160 Um, I imagine it'd be pretty interesting, not necessarily for exposure because exposure is
00:11:06.800 inevitable, no matter how good your upbringing is.
00:11:09.100 I'm the classic example of that two loving parents, pastors home, Christian school, but,
00:11:13.560 um, the long-term effects and people's recovery, there would definitely be a link there.
00:11:17.900 But, um, but I, again, I don't want to speculate cause I don't know of any specific studies that
00:11:22.120 have actually hit on that.
00:11:23.720 Yeah.
00:11:23.800 I, I wonder, I wonder what that correlation would be, or even if there was, and I don't
00:11:28.180 know if there is, but how that would, if it comes in the form of discipline, if a dad
00:11:34.060 were to catch, for example, uh, his son watching inappropriate material, uh, if that would, if that
00:11:40.660 would stomp it out, you know, before it became a problem.
00:11:43.540 Um, I don't know, I'm just trying to think about all of these issues because I know the
00:11:46.340 rise of fatherless homes is a huge thing that we're dealing with currently and going to need
00:11:51.000 to deal with even more.
00:11:52.640 Yeah.
00:11:52.840 It's, it's a bit of a silent epidemic.
00:11:54.920 Um, this is actually a great segue into the conversation about roots because, uh, typically,
00:11:59.920 uh, like one of the greatest reasons that people struggle with an addiction is number
00:12:03.740 two or sorry, number one, unmet needs and number two, a lack of resilience.
00:12:08.100 And I, I think, uh, you can make an argument for both in the arena of what fathers provide
00:12:12.700 because fathers certainly are very, very important for helping us learn to get our needs met, uh,
00:12:18.260 as we grow up and really helping us get our needs met when we're really young.
00:12:21.500 But the resilience part is a huge, a huge deal.
00:12:24.280 And if you don't have a father figure in the home modeling the resiliency, um, it's not just
00:12:28.980 that you get exposed and you get hooked.
00:12:30.400 I think it's that people don't have that example.
00:12:33.120 They don't have the character development or the fortitude within to actually make a recovery.
00:12:37.400 And I think that that would be an interesting angle for the role that fathers do play in
00:12:41.660 all of this because fathers do impart resiliency and character building and some of those deeper
00:12:46.300 inner qualities that really help somebody survive an addiction and really make it to the other side.
00:12:51.060 So I definitely want to get into the resilience side, but let's talk about those unmet needs.
00:12:55.180 You're not just talking about a guy's need to procreate.
00:12:59.220 You're talking about more, maybe deeper level needs.
00:13:03.640 I don't know if there's anything more deeper than our need to reproduce, but, uh, what other
00:13:09.080 types of needs are you referring to?
00:13:10.740 Okay.
00:13:11.740 So there's four core needs.
00:13:13.380 Um, the first is just the basics.
00:13:15.680 So food, shelter, water.
00:13:17.060 Sure.
00:13:17.740 The second is safety.
00:13:18.980 And that's true on a physical, biological level, uh, no threats in the environment.
00:13:23.540 It's true also on a psychological level, free to express yourself.
00:13:26.660 Uh, the third is intimacy and the fourth is significance.
00:13:31.140 So the general theory is that if those needs don't get met, um, because they are core needs,
00:13:38.220 they're not just optional, they're fundamental, you will get them met one way or another.
00:13:43.420 The question is whether or not it'll be healthy.
00:13:45.620 And so if it doesn't happen in the home or the more natural avenues, then, uh, for something
00:13:50.380 like intimacy, we say intimacy is the need of all needs.
00:13:53.020 And intimacy is a great example.
00:13:55.420 And it's often what drives a lot of people's draw to pornography and other sexual misbehavior.
00:14:00.220 They don't get that experience of intimacy and then they find other ways to get it met.
00:14:04.460 And like we said before, because of the accessibility of internet porn, it becomes
00:14:09.100 a very viable option.
00:14:11.100 I think the intimacy is a, is a no brainer.
00:14:13.420 I mean, not that we can't dig into it, but it seems like, yeah, clearly that would lead to
00:14:18.620 a sexual outlet of us trying to meet those needs, but how does safety and significance
00:14:25.420 come into play and how is somebody attempting to meet those types of needs with pornography?
00:14:31.420 So, okay.
00:14:32.940 Um, a man's, a man's strength is always measured by his ability to confront pain.
00:14:38.620 And the reason safety factors into this is because if you don't know how to cope with
00:14:43.020 a lack of safety, or you don't know how to actually stay secure in an environment, you
00:14:48.220 will always find a coping mechanism, something, some people it's humor, like just at a very,
00:14:53.180 like kind of playful kind of level.
00:14:54.860 Right.
00:14:55.100 Um, but we always find ways to cope.
00:14:57.180 And so when people don't feel safe, they always find ways to, to kind of bring themselves
00:15:01.260 back to that place of safety at a, at a neurological level, porn is either a relaxant or a stimulant.
00:15:06.780 This is maybe a better way to phrase it.
00:15:08.140 Uh, Ryan is if you're using porn as a relaxant, it's to take the edge off.
00:15:14.540 And when we say we want to take the edge off, what we're really saying is we're trying to
00:15:17.500 restore back to a place of safety where whatever is the perceived threat is gone.
00:15:21.980 And same with the stimulant, when we're depressed, when we're numb, that kind of thing, porn operates
00:15:26.940 as this thing that allows us to find our, our homeostasis, our, our place of safety.
00:15:31.740 So that's what that element is in our, um, we have kind of three pillars of recovery.
00:15:36.220 And our third pillar is identity, identity formation.
00:15:39.420 And that's where the significance part comes into play.
00:15:41.980 Uh, I think a lot of guys actually stay stuck in porn and can't get themselves out because they
00:15:47.020 have no sense of significance, no sense of purpose, no sense that they were actually put on this planet
00:15:51.980 for something greater than just paying bills and eating food.
00:15:54.940 And so, um, when that, that need isn't satiated, uh, then we either numb out to cope or we just
00:16:02.300 find terrible ways to find a calling and fulfillment in things that aren't fulfilling, like sex,
00:16:07.100 like porn, like money, like career status, et cetera, et cetera.
00:16:12.380 I was thinking as you were saying that, and I don't know if this is way off.
00:16:15.580 This is just a theory with the significance, you know, clearly we find significance and,
00:16:20.940 and having in being sexually desirable.
00:16:24.620 Yeah.
00:16:25.020 Right. So if, if plenty of attractive women are attracted to us, then we feel good about that. 0.99
00:16:30.140 And we should to a degree, feel good about that.
00:16:32.140 Oh, I'm wondering if when, when men watch pornography, if they see themselves in a way as
00:16:40.940 performing those acts with these women and somehow misguiding, like are misguided into
00:16:49.660 believing that those women are attracted to him. I don't, I don't know if I'm saying that right,
00:16:54.620 but if they're living vicariously through somebody else and think that they're more
00:16:58.060 sexually attractive than they actually are. 0.57
00:16:59.740 Yeah. I love what you're saying. I use different language, but it's the same concept.
00:17:05.180 Uh, porn is the easiest way to experience acceptance from another woman. 1.00
00:17:10.060 There's, there's no risk of rejection when you watch porn.
00:17:12.860 Right.
00:17:13.180 Right. And so I think it's exactly what you're saying. It's, it's easy attention.
00:17:17.820 And the reason we watch most videos, like the reason people love even a podcast
00:17:21.660 is we tend to insert ourselves into the interview. We, we imagine that we're answering the questions
00:17:27.420 or somehow participating in the story and the same thing is true in pornography. So absolutely 100%
00:17:33.740 and rejection issues is something that a lot of our clients are working through, um, for whatever
00:17:38.620 the reason might be. Um, but yeah, it's very common that guys find themselves watching this stuff.
00:17:43.420 Cause it's just an easy way to get the acceptance without any risk or any cost to them.
00:17:48.540 Yeah. That's interesting. And I, I actually imagine that's going to get worse and worse because you have
00:17:53.340 virtual reality, uh, sex robots is probably an issue that, that is not even probably,
00:17:59.980 it is an issue that's going to become increasingly, um, dangerous. Yeah. So I imagine this problem is
00:18:07.340 going to, to get even worse. I think so. Yeah. Um, yeah. Again, it's just the barriers to entry become
00:18:14.940 lower and lower as does the level of stimulation. And that's, that's the real problem with like,
00:18:20.300 as far as messing with people's brains development, the way we connect to other people, it's, um,
00:18:25.420 it's the reprogramming of our brains that this kind of technology is going to create all kinds of
00:18:29.660 havoc for. So an interesting thought is, you know, there's pornography and masturbation as a healthy 0.84
00:18:37.820 outlet relative to that sexual promiscuity. What are your, what are your thoughts about that? 0.97
00:18:44.220 Yeah. I mean, you're kind of choosing the lesser of two evils. So it just depends on how good of a life
00:18:49.260 you want. Um, you know, if I really love somebody, I would never let them settle for the lesser of two
00:18:54.380 evils. Um, to me, the, the person who's really like living a fulfilling, healthy life is just in
00:19:01.180 control of their sexual needs or desires. They're not, it's not something that they fall victim to.
00:19:05.980 Like this thing just has to get met. And so I'm either sleeping around or I'm watching porn. That's,
00:19:10.780 that's the talk of a very powerless person. Um, some, somebody who is really powerful and living in
00:19:16.620 control of their life is fully aware of their needs and is asking themselves, what is the superior way
00:19:22.140 or the best way for me to get this need met? So I, that would be my response to somebody who's in that
00:19:26.940 situation. So what are your thoughts then about, so obviously it's sat, well, it sounds like you're
00:19:32.220 saying zero pornography at all. Uh, what about masturbation? Yeah, that is always the million 0.97
00:19:39.180 dollar question. So I, I mean, I come from a faith perspective. That's sort of my background.
00:19:44.460 And so there's an element of conviction that I have that, that would say masturbation is wrong,
00:19:49.180 but let's put that aside and just talk about the, just the biology of it and the principle of it.
00:19:54.620 Um, on a biological level, generally people that are masturbating with any kind of regularity
00:19:59.820 typically are doing it to clear their mind, uh, to relief, uh, maybe stress or whatever it might be.
00:20:06.060 And like, sometimes it's just pent up sexual urges. Usually the side effects of masturbating 0.97
00:20:11.260 regularly are more negative than they are positive. Um, but we never, we never know that
00:20:15.420 in the moment, in the moment, it always feels like the best option we have, uh, on a deeper
00:20:20.060 psychological level. Um, masturbation is solo intimacy. And I think, I think the design of sex, 0.97
00:20:28.540 uh, what, like you actually said earlier is procreation. Like that's the biological function
00:20:32.620 of it. So to me, masturbation even violates the biological element. And I've heard of people 0.62
00:20:37.820 talking about masturbate to kind of get in touch with their body and there's no fantasy and there's 0.88
00:20:41.580 nothing like that. I still think it's a weird way to experience a sexual release when we know 0.96
00:20:46.620 the superior way, superior way will always be with another person. So I don't know if I could say
00:20:51.980 masturbation is wrong. Um, and, and that you should never do it. What I could say with 100% confidence 0.92
00:20:57.660 though, is masturbation is not best practice. Hmm. It I I've heard, I think it's Jordan Peterson. 0.98
00:21:03.740 If I remember correctly, he's been talking more recently about some of these issues. And he had
00:21:10.940 said in a, in a clip or an interview that I watched that we're having men and women, uh, who are not
00:21:17.900 getting married as, as early, uh, or they're not getting married at all. And what pornography and
00:21:24.940 masturbation, uh, does is it satisfies to some degree to the degree that it can your urge to go out and 0.98
00:21:33.660 find a woman and put forth the effort to win her, her love and then mate with her. And so that's why
00:21:43.380 we're seeing declining divorce rates, which presents a whole other set of problems in, uh, not, not just
00:21:49.360 divorce rates. Excuse me. I said divorce rates, but an increase in divorce rates, a decline in marriage
00:21:53.300 altogether. Uh, and it creates a problem, a societal problem above and beyond just pornography addiction.
00:22:00.580 Yeah. I mean, that that's exactly it. Like where, where does this thing end? Right? Like if we,
00:22:06.800 if we start to become more comfortable with, uh, just getting our fill on a screen, like you said,
00:22:12.040 not, not getting married, not procreating, like you, you can kind of see the long-term effects
00:22:16.960 that's going to have on a society. I'm really grateful. People like Jordan Peterson are speaking
00:22:21.980 up about it. I've seen a bunch of his clips too. And, um, and I think a lot of it is hitting on the fact
00:22:26.900 that ultimately porn is a detraction away from the, you know, the, the fundamental design of us to
00:22:33.700 connect, to relate. And, uh, from a male perspective, I would say, especially to procreate.
00:22:38.620 Um, so yeah, I, I totally agree with that. What, what are your thoughts? Have you looked into
00:22:43.240 this concept of semen retention? I mean, I, I hear about it. I, I, to me, it sounds dumb and admittedly,
00:22:51.560 I haven't, um, really dived into it. I haven't done a lot of research on it, but I mean, there's 0.67
00:22:57.560 a reason why we produce semen. There's a reason why we as men ejaculate, you know, and it, in the
00:23:02.820 right context, it's important, but, but to deny that at an extreme level seems absurd to me.
00:23:11.980 Yeah. I'm, I'm not a fan of the semen retention movements myself. Um, there's other coaches in my
00:23:16.840 space where, you know, you do their program and, um, they're, they call themselves PMO coaches. So
00:23:21.400 that means porn, masturbation, and orgasm. And so if you're married in that situation, or you're in 0.99
00:23:26.980 an active sexual relationship, what they'll say is for the 90 days or 120 days, you do their program,
00:23:32.300 you do none of that. There's literally no orgasm and it's to reset your brain. Um, you had Terry
00:23:37.120 Cruz on here talking about this last year, actually, Ryan, and he talked a little bit about how he went
00:23:40.680 the 90 days. So I'm not, I'm not against that approach. That would be kind of the semen retention
00:23:45.260 approach in a recovery context. But like we were saying earlier, if the actual issue here is let's
00:23:51.900 call it intimacy. Okay. We say intimacy is the need of all needs and porn addiction is typically an
00:23:56.940 intimacy, uh, disorder. So if that's actually the problem here, how are you doing yourself any
00:24:02.020 favors by not connecting intimately with your significant other, your spouse, your partner
00:24:06.860 for those 90 days? What we want to do is we, we actually want people to fall in love with getting
00:24:12.280 their orgasm that way, the more natural way, as opposed to something fake and produced like 0.78
00:24:17.200 pornography. So to me, semen retention is I, again, I I'm not like, I'm not going to totally
00:24:22.520 crap on it. Um, if people want to do it, that's fine. But as far as my philosophy goes, I just don't
00:24:27.040 have any room for that kind of approach because we're much more about the relational connection
00:24:31.580 kind of component. So as you talk about it, I, I understand, I can understand the discipline
00:24:36.420 portion of, of that 90 days or whatever it is, 120 days. Uh, I can understand even the mental
00:24:42.980 reset. Hey, I don't need, cause I think there's an issue in needing sex from a woman. That's a 1.00
00:24:47.460 problem too. Like I need to have this for validation. That's a problem. I, where I get
00:24:51.820 tripped up is I don't want to lose my power by giving away my seed and I, and, and women don't 1.00
00:24:58.140 deserve, you know, all my power. This kind of stuff is where I really begin to take issue with in
00:25:03.800 that, in that sort of movement. It's just hard to imagine anybody having a really healthy,
00:25:08.440 fulfilling, long-term relationship with another person when that's their thinking, right? Because
00:25:13.000 it is, it, there's no altruism to it. It's totally self-focused. It's, it's the personal gain. I don't
00:25:18.820 even know if it's really true to be honest. Like it, even just the logic of it doesn't really make
00:25:23.120 sense. And there are like, there is some research that shows like maybe you've got a bit of a spike in
00:25:28.160 your energy and that kind of thing, but nothing, nothing long, long-term or cohort to really show
00:25:34.180 that as far as I know, I granted, I don't research it a ton. Cause like I said, it's not part of my
00:25:37.920 philosophy, but yeah, I, I, I have a hard time seeing the real long-term benefit of it.
00:25:43.880 I actually wonder about testosterone levels in specifically, whether it's there. I wonder if
00:25:50.020 there's some sort of not formula necessarily, but, uh, schedule where, cause they've talked about
00:25:56.980 where your testosterone will, will increase if you're on this kind of semen retention program. 0.98
00:26:04.360 Uh, but also having sex with, with a woman also boost and increased testosterone. So it's, to me, 0.77
00:26:13.440 it's just doesn't pass the, the, the common sense test to me is really what it comes down to. Like
00:26:18.540 the biological commons. We have that function for a reason. We ought to use it in healthy ways.
00:26:23.880 Yeah, I would agree. Think, think of it like, okay, let's say you're addicted to chocolate.
00:26:28.000 So your thing is like, well, I'm going to, I'm going to remove all the chocolate out of my house.
00:26:32.300 I'm not going to eat chocolate for 90 days. And that's probably, that's, that's definitely doable.
00:26:36.540 It's a great feat of your self-control and your discipline. What are you going to do after those 90
00:26:41.200 days? Like you, you have had no experience actually just having a healthy relationship with chocolate
00:26:45.880 where maybe you eat it once a week or twice a week or something like that, which is why typically
00:26:50.580 people that go on these challenges or they try to just, you know, hit a certain streak. We don't do
00:26:55.020 any street counting in our, in our groups. And there's a reason for that. And it, and it's
00:26:59.160 typically because people get so obsessed with the number. There's no inner development. They don't
00:27:03.460 change their relationship to, in our case, pornography, but in the example, chocolate. And then when the
00:27:08.540 time's up, the 90 days, 120 days, people just revert back to their old habits. So we want to change
00:27:13.140 their relationship to the substance, to the behavior. So that long-term they can actually
00:27:18.480 experience regular steady control over it. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Let's go back to,
00:27:24.340 we were talking about masturbation earlier. You said that there's some negative side effects that 0.50
00:27:28.700 outweigh the positive benefits of engaging in that. I imagine erectile dysfunction is one,
00:27:34.940 but I don't, I'm not really familiar with what other side effects there may be
00:27:38.600 that comes from that act. Yeah. So typically people talk about brain fog being a big one,
00:27:45.380 especially if you do it chronically, any kind of regular basis. Not everybody reports that some
00:27:50.820 people maybe don't get that. Those two would be the big ones. The erectile dysfunction you mentioned
00:27:55.520 is significant. And then the other thing we didn't really talk about is most people attach
00:27:59.860 masturbation to fantasy. And that, that becomes a huge problem in the arena of objectifying women, 1.00
00:28:05.880 how you perceive other people, um, really like sexualizing people and humans, uh, that that's 0.90
00:28:12.440 kind of the path that you can go down if you're engaging in masturbation on a regular basis and 0.98
00:28:17.360 then also fantasizing with it. Well, I can tell you from personal experience, um, I, I used to watch 0.76
00:28:24.200 quite a bit of porn and I remember one moment I was, I can't remember exactly where I was. Maybe I was
00:28:30.380 walking to the street or walking down the mall and I caught myself looking at every woman and
00:28:37.000 imagining her either naked or me sleeping with her, uh, or, or even just evaluating like, Oh, would I, 0.99
00:28:45.620 would I have sex with her? Or she's got, you know, nice breasts, nice, nice, but, but I don't like 1.00
00:28:51.520 her. And like, it all became objectified. I'm like, Whoa, I caught myself in the moment. I'm like, 0.94
00:28:56.140 I'm not even like, I'm looking at these women purely as objects. It was a wild experience.
00:29:02.180 And I'm glad I, I, I recognize that in the moment. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a little bit crazy. They,
00:29:08.640 they actually did a study that, um, that illustrated this point really well, which is, um, they, they had
00:29:14.540 a bunch of male butterflies and then they created these cardboard cutouts of really bright colored
00:29:19.680 female, female looking butterflies, quote unquote. And they had this little mechanism and they,
00:29:24.360 their wings moved really quickly. And basically there was a high level of stimulation that came
00:29:28.240 from these cardboard cutouts. So they put the male butterflies in a room with these cardboard
00:29:31.680 cutouts. And obviously they tried to mate with them and they realized like they couldn't, um,
00:29:35.800 then they inserted female butterflies into the same room. And what they saw is that the male
00:29:41.500 butterflies, even though there were actual female butterflies there, they preferred the cardboard
00:29:47.120 cutouts. Those are still the ones that they tried to go after. And what they did, this was sort of
00:29:51.680 in conjunction with some other research, but what it illustrated is that our brains get rewired.
00:29:56.900 Uh, the part of our brain that even would recognize somebody as a person, as opposed to an object
00:30:01.280 is basically inactive. When you watch pornographic content, when you watch people without clothes.
00:30:06.880 And so all of this kind of conditioning and programming is taking place when we're watching
00:30:10.620 porn regularly that we don't even realize what, what you just mentioned is what I experienced as well.
00:30:15.880 I hated the person I was becoming because I, it seemed like everything was sexual. I sexualized 0.71
00:30:21.120 everybody I saw. And I just, it was not a way to live, you know, especially when you want healthy
00:30:26.540 relationships, you want to have healthy friendships with women. And for me, I was single at the time
00:30:30.300 wanting to get married one day. Um, it's just, it's an awful way to live. And for me, it was,
00:30:35.460 it was really, um, there was a lot of guilt associated with it too, man. Let me step away from
00:30:40.520 the conversation with Cynthia very quickly. Uh, I know that we're on the topic, obviously
00:30:45.360 of pornography today. And since we're bringing that up, you need to know that these are conversations
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00:31:12.980 these conversations are designed to inspire action and create results in your life. That's
00:31:18.380 the good news. The bad news is that we're not currently open, but that's changing on December
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00:31:27.220 this point. So for now head to order of man.com slash iron council, watch a short video about
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00:31:44.320 order of man.com slash iron council. Do that right after the show for now. Let's get back
00:31:49.540 to it with Cynthia. Well, I also think there's an issue with having everything that you want
00:31:55.820 all the time. Like with pornography, you could say, okay, well, I like women who are five, 1.00
00:32:01.540 five with blonde hair, with a D cup, uh, with this size waist, and you can pick exactly what 0.52
00:32:10.520 you want. The problem with that is that's not real life. And it doesn't apply just to our,
00:32:16.820 the way that we look physically, because the odds of you finding that custom woman in real
00:32:23.180 life are really low. And she's probably not into the things that you're watching as well.
00:32:28.140 And so you may discard an amazing, amazing relationship or amazing opportunity for intimacy
00:32:35.360 because you don't have it just your way. It reminds me of, uh, Oh, what's weird science,
00:32:39.600 you know, where the two guys, they, they make this incredibly beautiful woman. And it's like,
00:32:44.760 you are ruined for the rest of your life now because there's nobody that can compare to the
00:32:49.560 perfect woman that you want to create. Yeah. I have a lot of friends who I would say have fallen
00:32:54.540 into this trap a little bit and whether it's because of porn explicitly or not, um, I'm not
00:32:58.660 so sure, but people are getting really picky. Right. And right. That's what I'm saying.
00:33:03.440 Yeah. Like picky to a fault, right. Where it's like exactly like they're, they're turning down
00:33:08.380 viable options, like some great women who they could have a very healthy relationship with long-term 0.99
00:33:14.260 because you know, of like stupid little things that really don't actually matter that much. 0.98
00:33:18.500 And that's the thing, like you and I, like you're, you've been married for, I think it is what 18, 0.99
00:33:22.480 19 years, 18 years. Yeah. 18 years. Yeah. And all the marriages I look at that have, you know,
00:33:28.240 last the test of time, they, when you ask them like what really matters in another partner,
00:33:33.660 they never talk about the physicality of it. Never. If they do, it's way further down the list.
00:33:38.620 It's character. It's the ability to work through problems. It's the more vital parts of a relationship.
00:33:43.620 And we're just being conditioned and programmed away from those things when you're watching porn.
00:33:48.100 And like you said, you can build your own model, your own porn star, your own, whatever it is that
00:33:52.000 you want. Well, I also take issue with the whole mentality of test driving. That that's something
00:33:57.960 that, or, or compatibility. And when they say that, what they're, they're not talking about emotional,
00:34:04.340 mental, intellectual, spiritual compatibility. They're talking about sexual chemistry. Yeah.
00:34:08.700 A hundred percent. And you know, yeah, sure. But I think a lot of that sexual chemistry gets
00:34:14.480 resolved in the compatibility of mental, emotional, spiritual compatibility. Yeah.
00:34:20.440 The other things, you know, that stuff can be worked out, but it's just, it's so fascinating to me 0.60
00:34:26.720 that it's, that, that culture is just rat, like everything is sexualized. And if it doesn't work
00:34:33.140 just the way you want it, or she's not into X, Y, and Z, then you're just going to throw 0.85
00:34:37.380 everything else away. And I'm not saying physical appearance, is it important? Of course it is.
00:34:43.020 Yes.
00:34:43.260 Of course it is. But there's other things that I think are a better litmus test of your so-called
00:34:49.200 compatibility or chemistry than just how good she is in the sack or what weird acts she'll do. 1.00
00:34:54.760 Yeah. I always kind of laugh when people talk about the test driving thing. Cause like,
00:34:58.080 if you really run with that metaphor, it's like, yeah, you're going to test drive it now. And then
00:35:01.440 what happens when they want to trade in the model for a newer one, right? What happens when the car
00:35:06.140 breaks down? Like, what are you, what are you going to do? Like it, it just, it doesn't really
00:35:09.300 make sense. And again, like it depends on people's goals here, but presumably most of your listeners
00:35:15.040 have a good head on their shoulders. They want to have long-term committed, healthy relationships.
00:35:20.160 And yeah, you have to pay attention to the more fundamental elements of it, that that's,
00:35:25.000 what's actually going to last. But then I do agree, like we should, we shouldn't be negating the
00:35:28.120 physical part of it either. Cause yeah, that, that part, that part has to be in the mix for sure.
00:35:33.000 Sure. So we've spent a lot of time talking about, uh, you know, some, some of the issues,
00:35:38.900 the way that you can tell if maybe you have a problem, some of these core deeper levels,
00:35:43.140 but we really haven't gotten to solutions. And the reason I wanted to hit that first was because
00:35:47.440 I think if we understand the nature of it and our nature as men, that we'll have an easier time
00:35:55.100 when it comes to implementing the solutions that you propose. So, but, but I do want to shift gears
00:35:59.900 and talk about some things that we can do. And there's things that, that we heard of,
00:36:03.820 like, uh, having an accountability per partner or track streak counting, like you were saying,
00:36:09.140 which you're not an advocate of. It sounds like, um, you know, putting filters and programs and apps
00:36:14.920 on your computer that will, you know, send your, your 10 closest friends that you're looking at
00:36:19.680 pornography right now, things like that. Right. Yes. I'm really curious about what you would suggest
00:36:24.800 as a tactical approach to overcoming this, this addiction that so many men deal with.
00:36:30.560 Yeah. So if you had a weed in your garden, um, you always have two options. Let's say it's not
00:36:36.320 in your garden. Let's say it's in your lawn. You can run over it with the lawnmower, or you can put
00:36:40.280 some gloves on and you can uproot it. And what a lot of guys try to do when they're, they're trying
00:36:44.820 to control some sexual misbehavior in their life is they settle for the quick surface level solutions,
00:36:51.280 uh, and it slap an internet filter on the logic of it makes sense. It's going to block you from
00:36:55.800 doing the thing you're doing, but it's not actually getting to the roots. It's, it's just running over
00:37:00.000 that weed with a lawnmower. And you're going to have to keep doing it. Exactly. Like temporarily,
00:37:05.940 it looks great. It's only a matter of time before it comes back, whether it's the same plant or whether
00:37:11.120 it grows another weed, either way, you still have a problem. It requires a lot of willpower. I'm just
00:37:17.100 wondering how we get to the point of not having to will ourselves or, or against this temptation
00:37:22.940 that we have. Yeah. So this was my experience, Ryan is like, I did, I did all these things for
00:37:27.880 like three years. I would consider myself a pretty disciplined will powered guy. And I did everything
00:37:34.100 I could to white knuckle my way through it really hard for a Brown Indian man to white knuckle his way 1.00
00:37:38.480 through anything, by the way, but I, I gave it everything I had, you know, and ultimately it just left
00:37:44.240 me with more shame, more guilt, and basically feeling like there must be something wrong with
00:37:48.720 me because I can't figure it out. To me, the, the thing that actually got me freedom was getting
00:37:53.460 underneath the surface to the roots. And what I actually mean by that is trying to identify
00:37:58.600 when I am tempted, trying to identify when I actually gave in what else was going on beyond just
00:38:05.040 the urge itself or the desire. And that takes a little bit of work. We kind of have like a little
00:38:10.320 process of building self-awareness, transformation of the heart, and then establishing your identity.
00:38:15.220 I mentioned that that's kind of our process for like really actually identifying the root
00:38:19.920 issues, working through them. And then the identity piece is actually installing the new,
00:38:24.420 like healthy root system, quote unquote. That's kind of what it looks like at an overview, but maybe
00:38:30.200 you can ask about any particular elements that you want me to double down on.
00:38:33.900 I mean, I like that framework. I'm just thinking about in my own personal life,
00:38:38.380 the temptation comes for me when I'm bored, right? So if I'm busy, not, that's a not,
00:38:47.320 that's a not issue. If I'm busy clearly doing an interview or, you know, doing something with work
00:38:54.180 or I'm engaged with my family, clearly that's not an issue. It's, it's that old adage of
00:38:58.400 idle hands or the devil's workshop type mentality. And for me, that's absolutely true. And so I've just
00:39:05.700 got to be busy. I've just got to do something that engages me so I can get that out of the brain.
00:39:12.280 Yeah. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Like, I think that's kind of man's nature.
00:39:16.480 Like we are, we are wired to act, to be active and to do things. So, um, I don't think there's
00:39:21.860 anything wrong with that. I would say though, if you can't sit with yourself for a little bit without
00:39:25.720 feeling that temptation and watching, you probably have some, some deeper root issues that you need
00:39:30.360 to tackle. And what I would, my, my first inclination for somebody who says that is pain,
00:39:35.060 you probably have some pain that you need to process. Um, cause I think when a guy is really
00:39:40.140 healthy, he should be able to sit in those empty moments and actually feel content with himself.
00:39:45.420 It, we shouldn't have to drift to those kinds of places.
00:39:48.800 It's, it's, yeah, absolutely. And this is therapeutic for me. I want to hit on this for a
00:39:53.360 minute. And if it's good for me, I know it's going to be good for a lot of other people.
00:39:56.080 Um, sitting in silence and being still is, is a challenge for me. It's a, it's a serious
00:40:03.840 challenge. One of the things that has actually been beneficial for me in practicing this is
00:40:08.760 hunting where I have to sit in a tree stand by myself in the cold, typically for three,
00:40:17.480 four hours at a time, just sitting there. And I've been doing that for about five or six years now
00:40:24.420 this year. I just got done with a hunt, um, about a week and a half ago. And this is the
00:40:29.160 first year where I felt, man, that was actually pretty nice. All the other times I had to like
00:40:35.400 push myself through it or constantly on my phone, playing a video game while I'm sitting there in
00:40:40.100 the tree stand. Yeah. I mean, that's interesting because there would be layers to something like
00:40:45.400 that. I don't know if that's just male nature. Like, like I said, we love the activity and the
00:40:48.900 busyness. There's definitely an element of conditioning that's just happening in our society. We are the
00:40:53.720 most stimulated society of all time between our devices and technology. And we're just used to it.
00:40:58.720 We're just used to the quick hits and all that. But I, again, like I, I actually teach my guys this
00:41:03.380 all the time. I'm like one of the greatest superpowers that will separate you from regular
00:41:07.960 men in society in the next 15 to 20 years will be a twofold. One is your ability to focus. And the
00:41:13.940 other is your ability to handle silence or handle stillness. Because, um, without those things,
00:41:19.720 I think we, we actually drive ourselves into a ground, into the ground one way or the other.
00:41:23.720 And for what we're talking about to actually get to the roots and to be healthy in your inner life,
00:41:28.360 you need those moments. You need that capacity to, to be still, to be silent and to actually,
00:41:33.840 you know, reflect a little bit within. And, um, that's actually a tactical part of what we do.
00:41:38.120 We teach people how to be reflective, how to spend that, that quiet time. Um, because without it,
00:41:43.080 you don't really get a chance to figure out what's actually going on within you.
00:41:46.080 I also think there's an issue with needing that, that attention or validation from other people
00:41:53.040 because they're not always going to be around. Right. Yeah. True. And, and not only that, uh,
00:41:58.900 you become needy and annoying to put it, to put it nicely. And nobody that, that might be to your
00:42:05.560 wife. That might be to a girlfriend. If you need her because you can't sit in stillness,
00:42:10.340 she's going to pick up on that. And it's like a, like a new little pet, you know,
00:42:14.800 she gets a new pet, new puppy, and she loves it. And, but the puppy starts to poop and the pup,
00:42:21.120 then she has to clean up after it. And then she's got to take it everywhere. And if she doesn't want 1.00
00:42:24.380 to take it, she's got to find a sitter for it. And it becomes really annoying really quickly.
00:42:29.740 Oh yeah. 100%. And I, again, I think this is actually the premise of it. Like to, to me,
00:42:35.020 porn, porn addiction or somebody's desire to watch porn and they can't stop. That's just a symptom.
00:42:40.080 Like the real problem is always underneath the surface, whether it's unmet needs or a lack of
00:42:45.080 maturity or insecurity or those kinds of things. And I, I think sometimes we can medicate those
00:42:51.860 issues in our lives by, by being busy or by finding, you know, our, our sense of purpose or
00:42:56.960 identity in a relationship or whatever it is. So I, I agree. Like our goal here is we're not just
00:43:03.020 trying to quit porn. What we're actually trying to do is become men who are well-rounded, healthy,
00:43:07.460 healthy and, and self-sufficient to a degree. You know, like, like I said, faith is a component
00:43:11.420 for me. So I don't fully buy into the self-sufficiency. There's a dependency on God
00:43:16.380 that I have that really carries me through. But that, that ability to just be not so reliant and
00:43:21.700 needy that that's everything to me, that is the mark of a true man. Well, I like this approach better
00:43:27.160 because you're going to hit a lot of ancillary vices as well. So exactly. There might be drinking,
00:43:33.180 there might be, uh, you know, lying is one where people are, or gambling and you're hitting all of
00:43:39.500 these other vices by default because you're focusing on the root of the issue. So it's a,
00:43:46.200 I did a podcast a couple of weeks ago called become a force multiplier. And I think this is what you're
00:43:50.940 talking about. You're not talking about putting a bandaid on the addiction of pornography. You're
00:43:55.160 talking about getting to the root issue, which now multiplies your positive return. It's yeah,
00:44:02.660 it's going to hit the pornography for sure, but it's going to hit a lot of these other things as
00:44:06.220 well. Yeah. And on the other side of it, when you get free, because you have cleaned up the root
00:44:11.520 issues, you're not just going to notice that you're not watching porn anymore or that you're
00:44:15.540 in more in control of your sexuality. Um, I mean, we see people have radical transformations in their
00:44:20.520 relationships. Sometimes it's career changes, spiritual awakenings, like it starts to spread to all
00:44:26.700 the other areas of their life as well, because the issues that are getting resolved are so fundamental.
00:44:31.360 Hmm. How do you, how does, how does a man, cause I know, again, there's a lot of guys who are going
00:44:36.620 to listen to this and they're thinking to themselves, man, this all sounds great. This
00:44:40.220 all sounds wonderful. Like I know that I've got a problem I need to deal with. How does one start to
00:44:45.660 become aware of not that they have a pornography addiction? They already know that, but begin to
00:44:52.280 identify what the root issue of their addiction actually is.
00:44:55.240 So there's two really easy ways to do this. If you, if you don't have somebody in your world that
00:45:02.700 is safe, that you can talk to about it, then what we recommend people to start with is a journal.
00:45:07.440 And all they have to do is, um, is ask two questions when they're journaling. What am I
00:45:11.920 thinking? And what am I feeling? Most guys can answer the first question. A very small percentage
00:45:16.640 of guys, unless they're taught can answer the second one. Um, and there's maybe we can put this in the
00:45:21.680 show notes. There's, if you go to feelingswheel.com, it's a little device that gives you a nice kind of
00:45:26.880 lexicon of terms that you can use to articulate how you're feeling. I still use this thing. I've
00:45:31.920 been clean seven years, still helps me articulate kind of what's going on. Probably the easiest way
00:45:37.020 to start just tapping into what's going on within you. Um, and then if you do have somebody that you
00:45:41.980 trust that you can talk to, that's not going to be judgmental that, you know, is just going to hear
00:45:45.900 you out, then talk to them about it. Those are two of the quickest ways that you can start to like
00:45:49.980 process and get an idea of what's going on. Sometimes the root is trauma and it, maybe it
00:45:54.780 requires a bit more professional help. Um, if it's like something like loneliness or even boredom,
00:46:00.020 um, maybe not boredom, but the loneliness is becoming a big one. I'm sure you get tons of
00:46:03.560 comments about that all the time, Ryan. And that's where like something like what you're doing,
00:46:07.060 it's called the iron circle that you guys have, I think, right. Iron council. Sorry, iron council.
00:46:12.000 Those kinds of communities and stuff are amazing ways for your guys to plug in as well and get
00:46:16.760 started on this. Um, if they just want some camaraderie, some companionship, and maybe a
00:46:21.880 little bit of help having more honest conversations. Have you found that this, you talked about having
00:46:26.940 a trusted person. Would, would this be, or would you advise that this could be a spouse or should
00:46:33.060 it be another man, a brother, a friend, something like that and not your spouse? Yeah. So I would say
00:46:39.900 typically not your spouse, not to say that your spouse couldn't be in the mix. Cause I obviously
00:46:43.700 don't support secrecy and keeping your spouse out in the dark, but I'm talking about somebody
00:46:49.020 that you could talk to at a very detailed granular level if you needed to, uh, without any kind of
00:46:55.620 fear of recourse or recoil. Sometimes our clients will ask us like, Hey, um, you know, have an
00:47:00.800 accountability set up like a covenant eyes or something like that. Is it okay for my wife to 0.85
00:47:04.780 be my accountability partner? And we pretty much always say no. Like, again, she should be in the mix, 0.99
00:47:09.860 but you need somebody that you can actually be fully transparent with. That's not going to be
00:47:14.660 your wife. So find somebody else in that place and then have some sort of arrangement with your 1.00
00:47:19.620 wife for how often you share or how, how much you're going to open up to her. But it's, it's a
00:47:23.940 weight that she was not meant to bear. There should be somebody else in that role.
00:47:27.720 So that's good. I like the way you said that a weight she's not meant to bear. It can come at the
00:47:32.680 extreme. And I've seen myself do this and I've seen other guys do it where they won't share
00:47:35.820 anything with their wives. And I think I'd warn against that as well. Uh, okay. So I think you 0.96
00:47:42.580 answered this question, but let's say somebody's got a pornography addiction. They're, they're
00:47:47.500 working on it. They want to work through it. Uh, do they come clean to their wife? Do they talk
00:47:52.400 about past pornography addictions? Do they leave it alone and work through a program or a course or
00:47:58.400 some of these tactics? What's your suggestion there? So you have to remember the goal. The goal is not
00:48:03.360 to get free of pornography. The goal is to become a better man and to regain control of your life.
00:48:09.040 And if you have a significant other in the mix, there is no way you're going to accomplish that
00:48:13.160 without their knowledge of your situation, how they find out about it is up to you. And what I always
00:48:19.580 say to people is if you're in a relationship, you're watching pornography and you know, it's a
00:48:23.880 problem. You only have two options. You can confess or you can be caught. There's no other way it ends.
00:48:30.080 So the things that we fear of where it's like, no, I couldn't tell her because if I tell her,
00:48:35.640 she's going to be pissed at me, she might leave me. I might never see my kids again, et cetera,
00:48:39.300 et cetera. The chances of those things happening when you confess are next to nothing. I can't
00:48:44.220 promise they won't happen, but it's very, very small. If you get caught, then just about anything
00:48:49.480 could happen. Those things suddenly become way more likely. So I do believe you have to,
00:48:54.280 you have to let your significant other know. And we, we kind of walk our guys through a process
00:48:59.040 of disclosure. There's initial disclosure where it's maybe bringing awareness to the issue like,
00:49:03.780 Hey, this is a thing. Here's how long it's been going on. Here's the extent of it. It's not
00:49:07.740 super detailed, but it's kind of an overview. And then a full disclosure where the significant other
00:49:13.760 could get some more questions answered and that kind of thing. So it has to be part of it, but
00:49:17.300 it could be rolled out in phases, so to speak.
00:49:20.780 That's it. That's an interesting thing. I'd never heard about that, but that makes sense.
00:49:24.060 Because if you just come drop, uh, you know, a, a, a nuke on, on your wife, like that,
00:49:28.880 that's, that's an issue for her. That's an issue for you. There's ramifications to that. And so
00:49:33.140 you're easing into this conversation. Yeah. Guys especially need to do this because sometimes we
00:49:38.200 forget we've had like the 20 years of this addiction and a little bit of time to process
00:49:43.300 it. We've thought about how we're going to say it. And sometimes we forget that the person hearing
00:49:47.000 the news is hearing it for the first time. So all the D all the things that we think we're going to get
00:49:51.960 into, it rarely happens that in that first conversation, cause it's just such a shock to
00:49:56.040 the other person. It's a lot for them to take in. Um, so there has to be some patience and,
00:50:00.160 and just a bit of vision casting for this process that needs to unfold, um, for your significant
00:50:05.600 other to really understand your situation properly without them getting too damaged in the process.
00:50:10.680 That's interesting. Cause there is some level of empathy that you should have for her and what
00:50:14.360 she's going to experience because she's, she's going to feel rejected. She's going to feel,
00:50:18.460 um, maybe not as, as attractive. Like there's some things that she's going to have to work
00:50:23.680 through as well as you come clean about this. Yeah. There's a whole, uh, rising industry called
00:50:28.840 betrayal trauma and it, it sort of plays into this that, um, in fact they've, they've done some
00:50:33.680 research and it shows that what people experience when they hear about this on the other side is
00:50:38.540 similar to what people experience when they experienced PTSD, just cause it's such a shock. Now that's
00:50:43.000 not to discourage the guys from sharing it, but it is to say that like, this is a pretty
00:50:47.020 serious matter and you want to make sure that you do it well when you share so that she's as well
00:50:51.640 positioned to not just absorb the information, but make sure that she can work through her stuff.
00:50:55.680 Cause typically this kind of information is going to bring up her, some of her stuff as well that
00:50:59.560 she may need to work through. Yeah. Yeah. You know. Okay. So going, whoops. Uh, I'm just looking
00:51:05.140 through my notes, going back to what you said about, uh, becoming aware. I think you said that there
00:51:09.520 was two things that you focus on and we got to journaling. So writing what you're thinking
00:51:14.480 and what are you feeling? Was there something else that you were going to share in there?
00:51:18.800 Yeah. Okay. So we, we divide journaling into two components. The first part is expression
00:51:22.640 and that's where you're asking those two questions. You're trying to label your emotions
00:51:26.040 and define your thoughts. The second element is reflection. And this is exactly what we were
00:51:31.100 talking about just a couple of minutes ago, Ryan. It's where you put the pen down and you just
00:51:36.060 start to listen. And so for me, this is where I hear God's voice. Um, it's that still small
00:51:41.060 voice that kind of speaks to me. Sometimes it's just words of encouragement. Uh, sometimes
00:51:45.020 it's connecting dots. Like maybe I'm really pissed about something. I'm trying to work
00:51:48.460 through it and I get that clarity. Um, but the idea is that you're setting aside time
00:51:53.080 now to be more silent, more reflective, and to try to kind of piece things together and
00:51:57.860 get some clarity on everything you've expressed. So that first part is more about just getting
00:52:02.580 it out. And like, like we said, it should have two components of thoughts and emotion.
00:52:06.460 And then the second element is more reflecting where you're trying to get some sort of resolve
00:52:11.020 or some sort of resolution that ultimately brings clarity to what's going on within you.
00:52:16.260 What is the significance of doing both thoughts and feelings? Why is that important?
00:52:21.660 If you do just one or the other, you don't have a good enough picture of what's really going
00:52:26.560 on within you. And as much as guys would like to believe that we're predominantly thoughts
00:52:31.420 or we're, we're basically logical. Uh, those are the things that we tend to lead with,
00:52:35.980 but they're not the only things that are going on. And for you to really, again, if you want to
00:52:41.500 resolve root issues, especially if you want to get through like any kind of sexual misbehavior,
00:52:46.220 trust me, there's a very real emotional component that's going on here. And if you're not making the
00:52:50.720 effort, even just when you're doing something as simple as journaling to get in touch with those
00:52:54.400 emotions and at least understand what emotions are at play, you have no hope of any kind of long-term
00:52:59.160 success for mastering your sexuality or anything else because sex itself is very emotional. So
00:53:04.520 that's why you need both elements in there. It gives you the best display of what's going on in
00:53:09.540 your heart. And then that's going to lead to the best solution or the best resolve after you do that.
00:53:15.700 Yeah. I mean, it makes, it is funny how often we say that we're logical and we're not emotional or
00:53:22.480 we shouldn't be emotional. I'm like, well, that's, that's all sounds great in theory, but let me ask you
00:53:27.620 guys, did you get pissed off today and react or respond inappropriately? And it might've been
00:53:33.380 insignificant. Maybe you were frustrated with how work was going. And so you snapped at one of your
00:53:37.960 kids. Well, guess what? That wasn't logical. That was an emotional outburst and all of us do it every
00:53:44.040 single day. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. We're way more emotional than we'd like to believe. That's where,
00:53:49.340 that's where we spend a lot of time. Like that's why we have things like the feelings wheel and
00:53:52.660 some of these other stuff, uh, these other devices rather, because, um, yeah, we, we just need help.
00:53:57.800 Like this is how I got through my porn addiction. Like I had to teach myself these things and go to
00:54:01.920 seminars and figure it out because I knew that I somehow needed to tap in, but I was, I was so
00:54:06.480 callous and so convinced that I didn't need to, that it, it cost me my relationships and it kept me
00:54:12.240 stuck in my addiction. So, um, yeah, it's, it's a huge part of the recovery journey.
00:54:16.900 So you said something interesting. You said you were so callous. You thought you could do it on your own.
00:54:20.180 You don't need this, but it wasn't working. And I, and I imagine you knew that. So without trying
00:54:27.100 to project on you, were you banging your head against the wall and thinking like the next time
00:54:30.980 you bang your head on the wall, it would work. And that's not directed at you. I mean, we all do
00:54:35.020 that. Yeah. Uh, yeah, that's the honest truth. The, the, the, the thing for me is I had this dressed
00:54:41.920 in like a lot of spirituality. Like I was praying the right prayers and I was, you know, I was like,
00:54:46.940 I'd read my Bible after I relapse and I did all the right things to kind of give me that illusion
00:54:51.660 of like, I know what I'm doing and I can figure this out. But, um, I actually had a, I had a mentor
00:54:57.800 one time and I was single when I was, when I was really, really struggling. And I told him, you know,
00:55:02.800 I can't wait until I'm married and I'm having sex. I, I, um, I abstained and didn't have sex until
00:55:06.820 marriage. And so I was saying, yo, I can't wait until I'm married. I'm having sex and I won't have
00:55:10.380 to deal with porn again. And, uh, he almost reached over the table and like smacked me in the face. 0.99
00:55:14.160 And he was like, bro, marriage is a magnifier. Like if it's a problem now, it's a bigger problem
00:55:19.060 later. And that was the thing that kind of put me in my place and kind of lit a fire under my butt 0.98
00:55:24.240 to actually do something about this. And, and I think that's what kind of got me out of this cycle
00:55:28.760 of thinking I could do it on my own. It gave me just a little bit of an impetus of like, okay,
00:55:33.260 I need to do something about it. But I mean, yeah, I was like every other guy, just pretty confident
00:55:37.320 that I could do it on my own and really just way too scared to reach out and get help. Um, and it kept
00:55:42.440 me stuck way longer than it should have. Did it did reaching out and getting help. You were talking
00:55:47.240 about their seminars, things like this, you were going to, did that make you feel, how did that
00:55:52.800 make you feel initially? Uh, it was kind of debilitating, you know, cause you're sort of
00:55:58.520 admitting you have this problem. Like as long as you're numbing or you keep the problem at bay,
00:56:03.100 you kind of don't have to admit that it's, it is what it is. Um, but I hated that feeling of
00:56:08.840 helplessness. Like I hated to admit that I did everything in my own power and I couldn't figure
00:56:13.820 it out that that was like a huge pill to swallow. But after I did it, I mean, and again, this is why
00:56:20.320 you talk to people that are actually loving that you trust. That's a big part of this because I was
00:56:25.800 met with so much compassion on the other side of it. So much acceptance. Um, there was one friend
00:56:30.260 in particular who was like, man, I've been struggling as well, which I kind of thought at the time I was the
00:56:34.120 only one. And all of those things really helped me pretty quickly get over the pride, get over any
00:56:39.660 of the fear and realize, Oh, this is like, this is actually way better. Cause now I feel like I'm
00:56:44.560 actually seen. I feel like people actually know me for who I am and I'm still experiencing love and
00:56:48.860 acceptance. That was incredibly transformative for me in those early stages of recovery.
00:56:54.020 Is, is confession, would you say, is that part of the recovery process? Like, does that need to
00:56:59.440 take place for you to go through this full recovery process? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean,
00:57:04.540 the degree is going to be different for everybody. Um, confessing it to yourself. That's usually where
00:57:09.240 it starts. Uh, for me, I was confessing it to God quite a bit, but that wasn't actually doing a lot
00:57:15.120 and it may for other people, but it was really the confession to people. That's where things start
00:57:20.340 to change. There's a scripture that talks about, um, you know, sharing your sins or sharing your
00:57:24.660 mistakes to one another that you may be healed. And I think there's a lot of relevance for that.
00:57:29.440 Here, it's not to say that if you confess, like you'll never struggle again, and just in the snap
00:57:33.760 of a fingers, you're good to go. But I think it is the gateway to getting some of that deeper help
00:57:38.520 that you need in a way that's actually going to be receivable for you. Cause I think people get
00:57:43.160 scared of programs. They get scared of talking to a counselor. It feels like too much. And I totally
00:57:47.500 get it. Cause I felt that way too. Um, I'm huge advocate, a huge advocate for that stuff now,
00:57:51.960 obviously, but if you're really even willing to just start by talking to somebody and, and
00:57:56.640 confessing it, man, I give you props. Like that takes a lot of guts and that's a great start,
00:58:01.520 um, on your recovery journey. Yeah. I can see how that would be. Well,
00:58:07.000 anytime I've ever shared any of my struggles, just from an emotional and like mental stamp,
00:58:13.560 like my soul, I think it's the best way to describe it becomes lighter. It's that, that heavy,
00:58:18.820 that heavy burden is lifted. And I really liked what you said is that people love and accept you for who
00:58:24.140 you are in spite of what you view as, you know, your own inadequacies that nobody else is dealing
00:58:30.140 with when in all reality, everybody else is dealing with. Yeah, exactly. But you have,
00:58:34.820 you have to actually experience it. Like you, again, like you can't just know it logically,
00:58:38.440 or you can't just know the theory of it. There's nothing like being seen for who you really are and
00:58:43.760 being accepted. And I think that's true at a spiritual level for me, like in my relationship
00:58:47.820 with God, that has been life-changing, but to experience that human to human as well,
00:58:52.100 it's, it's incredibly powerful. Tell me a little bit about your, your book, the last relapse. Tell
00:58:59.260 me a little bit about that and how that might serve the guys that are listening.
00:59:03.140 So we've been helping people get free of porn addiction for about four years formally and quite
00:59:08.060 a bit longer before that. And we've had the privilege of helping, you know, people around
00:59:12.220 the world and athletes and doctors and college students, everyone in between. And one of my mandates
00:59:18.400 the last two years has been to try to get as much of our resources available to as many people as
00:59:23.600 possible. No, no charge, no barrier to entry. So I, I mean, I spent a lot of money on, on writing a
00:59:29.960 published book and that's what the last relapse is. It is literally our blueprint for recovery.
00:59:34.260 So from A to Z, everything we walk people through, tons of practical stuff comes with a free workbook.
00:59:40.160 It's just chock full of all the stuff somebody would need to do our system and, and actually resolve
00:59:44.480 the roots of their addiction. And we've made it for, we've made it available for free. We have a
00:59:49.060 daily podcast as well. We do all kinds of content and get all kinds of stuff out there with the
00:59:55.020 intent for people to get these resources and start making a change in their life. So that's what the
01:00:00.720 book is. It's just our blueprint for recovery. And it would be an awesome place whether guys are just
01:00:05.180 starting on the journey or maybe they're, they're serious and they want to get more help. The last
01:00:09.820 relapse is a good place for that to happen. Excellent. We'll make sure we sync that up. Where else
01:00:14.280 can the guys go to either pick up a copy of the book or learn more about you and what you're up to?
01:00:19.500 Yeah. So for your audience, I actually have the book. I have a PDF download available completely
01:00:24.200 free of charge, uh, at the last relapse book.com. And I'll actually, that's, that's the standard
01:00:29.880 link, but I'll give you, I'll give you a special one, Ryan, that we can put in the show notes.
01:00:33.640 Um, and then the other place that, that people can follow us. I, like I said, we do a daily podcast
01:00:38.400 called unleash the man within, and we post content on Instagram every day as well. Um, it's
01:00:43.100 Sathya M E Sam, a little bit tricky to spell, but maybe if the links in the show notes, people can
01:00:47.420 follow us there. Um, you know, porn and all the other sexual misbehaviors are a daily struggle.
01:00:53.280 And so that's why we do so much daily content. We're just trying to, um, we're trying to be that
01:00:57.900 positive voice that can encourage and hopefully inspire people to a life of freedom.
01:01:02.660 Excellent, man. I've taken so many notes here and we'll sync everything up guys. So you know where to
01:01:06.240 go and you can get the links, but yeah, I've taken a lot of notes here and I know this is going to
01:01:10.460 serve a lot of us. So Sathya, I really appreciate you coming on, you sharing some of this wisdom
01:01:15.240 with us and, uh, hopefully it'll change some men's lives. Yeah. It was a pleasure being here,
01:01:20.000 Ryan. Thanks so much. Thanks brother. Okay, man. There you go. My conversation with Sathya Sam.
01:01:26.800 I hope that it was enlightening. I hope we were able to uncover some of the root causes of pornography
01:01:32.340 addiction and hopefully get you thinking in a new way, or at least unlock some ideas or frameworks
01:01:40.400 that might help you kick the habit. If that's something you're needing to do. Uh, also make
01:01:45.280 sure you pick up a copy of his book. The last relapse realize your potential reclaim intimacy
01:01:50.100 and resolve the root issues of pornography addiction. Uh, if you go to our show notes,
01:01:55.300 so that's order of man.com slash Sathya Sam S A T H I Y A Sam. Uh, you can click on the link and
01:02:04.020 that'll take you to the free book. The last relapse also right now, take a screenshot, send this to a
01:02:10.020 friend that maybe has talked about a pornography addiction or somebody in your life, uh, post it up
01:02:14.340 on Instagram. Let men know what you're listening to. Again, this is a grassroots movement. And the more
01:02:19.720 that you can share, the more men are going to get this information, the better they're going to be,
01:02:23.860 the better their families, their communities, and the world is going to be. We can do this.
01:02:28.360 We need a lot of men in the fight and you're part of the fight. All right, guys, that's all I've got.
01:02:32.600 Uh, also, also check out the masculinity manifesto at store.orderofman.com signed copies and the
01:02:38.800 exclusive edition as well. All right. We'll be back tomorrow until then go out there, take action
01:02:44.200 and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.
01:02:49.400 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.
01:02:53.200 We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.