Order of Man - November 26, 2024


SATHIYA SAM ｜ How Porn Destroys Masculinity

Topics
slipping into bad habits with porn pornography addiction effects roots-based approach to recovery personality tests pornography attachment loneliness change Boo Men pornography education
Hosted by
Ryan Michler
Guests
SATHIYA SAM
Mentioned
Sathya Sam Matt Walsh Johan Hari Man Within Mind Pump Cynthia
Why So Mad？ ｜ FRIDAY FIELD NOTES Establishing Boundaries, Father Legacy, and Networking Properly ｜ ASK ME ANYTHING

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 11 minutes

Words per minute

200.13

Word count

14,286

Sentence count

993

Harmful content

Misogyny

10

sentences flagged

Toxicity

14

sentences flagged

Hate speech

3

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Sathya Sam has made a movement out of helping men overcome their pornography addictions. And on today s podcast, we talk about the crucial distinction between shame and guilt, and which one you can use to affect change. Why porn is considered a supernormal stimulant, why tracking abstinence streaks don t work, and the role of legislation in combating the pornography industry and the 4 most damaging factors to your health when consuming porn.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 Every man listening to this podcast has likely been exposed to pornography.
00:00:04.820 I remember the first time I saw a Playboy.
00:00:07.720 It was a certain Baywatch actress when I was just 12 years old.
00:00:12.200 Changed my life and not in a good way at the time.
00:00:15.360 I thought it did, but all the research suggests that the sooner a young man is introduced to pornography, the more challenges with it that he'll likely face.
00:00:25.180 Your story is probably not so different than mine.
00:00:28.000 My guest today, Sathya Sam, has made a movement out of helping men overcome their pornography addictions.
00:00:34.960 And on today's podcast, we talk about the crucial distinction between shame and guilt and which one you can use to affect change.
00:00:42.620 Why porn is considered a supernormal stimulant.
00:00:46.700 Why tracking abstinence streaks don't work, but tracking trends do.
00:00:50.780 The role of legislation in combating the pornography industry and the four most damaging factors to your health when consuming porn.
00:00:59.780 You're a man of action.
00:01:01.620 You live life to the fullest.
00:01:03.060 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
00:01:06.000 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time.
00:01:09.360 Every time.
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00:01:12.760 Rugged.
00:01:13.540 Resilient.
00:01:14.560 Strong.
00:01:15.520 This is your life.
00:01:16.620 This is who you are.
00:01:18.020 This is who you will become.
00:01:19.740 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
00:01:24.700 Men, welcome to the Order of Man podcast.
00:01:28.680 I am Ryan Michler.
00:01:30.120 We have been going strong for nine and three quarter years now.
00:01:34.440 We're coming up on our 10 year anniversary, and I'm very, very excited to say that this is a business and a movement and an organization that has been flourishing and doing very well.
00:01:45.620 And that's a testament to the fact that you are listening, tuning in, sharing, growing, developing, building, and being the kind of men that we all have a desire to be.
00:01:53.880 So welcome here to the Order of Man podcast.
00:01:56.780 I've got a great, really, really powerful, very important conversation on the damaging effects of pornography coming up today.
00:02:04.200 Before I do, just want to make a mention of my friends and show sponsors that help make this possible.
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00:03:36.640 All right, guys.
00:03:37.400 Let me introduce you to my guest.
00:03:38.620 His name is Sathya Sam.
00:03:40.060 He specializes in helping men all over the world overcome pornography addiction through scientifically backed means of abstinence and healing.
00:03:49.360 Sathya has been very vocal and forthright about his own personal struggles with pornography addiction and his own process of combating temptation.
00:03:58.780 He's created a system that moves from sobriety to freedom.
00:04:03.640 And there is a distinction we talk about in this podcast.
00:04:06.020 He's also the author of The Last Relapse, Realize Your Potential, Reclaim Intimacy, and Resolve the Root Issues of Pornography Addiction.
00:04:15.280 Now, he has his own podcast.
00:04:16.580 It's called The Man Within Podcast.
00:04:18.400 And he's also created the Deep Clean Program to help men overcome pornography addiction once and for all.
00:04:26.780 Sathya, what's up, man?
00:04:27.820 It's so good to have you back on the podcast.
00:04:29.620 Great to be here, man.
00:04:30.840 Can't wait to do this again.
00:04:32.900 Fortunately and unfortunately, you still have a job.
00:04:36.580 I know.
00:04:37.300 It's the weird double-edged sword of it.
00:04:39.240 You know, we love that.
00:04:40.160 We're growing.
00:04:40.720 We're helping more people.
00:04:41.520 But it does mean more people are struggling.
00:04:44.660 Well, I mean, sure.
00:04:46.160 I think more people are struggling.
00:04:47.360 But I think it's a little bit more appropriate to talk about or maybe not so taboo.
00:04:52.740 I think on one hand, the proliferation of pornography is probably greater than it's ever been.
00:05:00.360 But on the other hand, I think there is a large and growing cohort of individuals like yourself who are really working against the pornography industry.
00:05:11.140 Yeah.
00:05:11.460 You know, it's interesting, actually, because when you reached out, I was like, oh, man, how long has it been since I was on Order of Man?
00:05:16.020 I think it was about two years ago.
00:05:18.000 And even in just two years, the narrative has changed a lot.
00:05:21.780 A lot more people talking about it.
00:05:23.440 You know, we have mutual friends in the Mind Pump guys.
00:05:27.800 And when I interviewed with Mind Pump earlier this year, we were talking about how even fitness influencers now are like, don't eat sugar, lift weights, and don't watch porn.
00:05:37.060 Right?
00:05:37.220 Like, all of a sudden, like, don't watch porn is just kind of understood to be a healthy behavior or something that you guys should be doing or that we should be doing.
00:05:44.240 So I think the narrative has changed.
00:05:46.240 And I think the other thing that has happened since we spoke, I think, is COVID.
00:05:51.260 Or maybe we were middle of COVID.
00:05:52.400 I forget.
00:05:53.660 But we're still-
00:05:54.120 Yeah, I can't remember it offhand.
00:05:55.360 Yeah, we're still having people that come to us that are like, man, I was doing okay, COVID happened, and I still have not been able to really get back on track since.
00:06:04.440 Well, yeah, I imagine, obviously, when you're home all day, every day, you know, by yourself, you know,
00:06:12.080 boredom takes over, distraction, temptation, lust, all these things take over.
00:06:16.680 And so there was probably a huge uptick in pornography use.
00:06:21.600 I mean, if you were to look at the statistics from Pornhub or one of these other sites, I'm sure the amount of visitors just skyrocketed during that time.
00:06:31.480 Oh, yeah.
00:06:31.860 Not just that.
00:06:32.640 Pornhub, actually, they took it a step further.
00:06:34.360 So they gave away their premium subscription for free because it was like, hey, we know you're on hard times and finances are tight and whatever.
00:06:42.100 But meanwhile, they were making all that money back in ad revenue because traffic had gone up so much.
00:06:47.120 And post-pandemic, the numbers have, like, lowered, but they didn't go back to where they were before.
00:06:53.480 So the overall baseline is higher.
00:06:55.340 So some people are, you know, all about their business again.
00:06:58.000 But you have a bunch of people who formed a lot of bad habits during the pandemic, and they haven't been able to snap out of it.
00:07:03.200 But yeah, I mean, what I was looking at it while you were saying that, though, we talked in November of 2022.
00:07:10.280 So just about almost exactly two years ago.
00:07:13.340 Oh, there you go.
00:07:14.860 So when it comes to slipping into these habits, and they are habits, you know, we have positive habits and we have bad habits.
00:07:21.440 And obviously, I think most men would agree that viewing pornography is a bad habit.
00:07:25.940 To the degree they're willing to address it is varying.
00:07:28.620 But I think most people would agree with that.
00:07:30.600 What can a man do who has slipped into some of these bad habits?
00:07:36.080 So I think what you just said is actually really valuable, which is that a lot of guys have this habit.
00:07:41.560 A lot of guys maybe slipped into bad habits during the pandemic and are struggling with pornography.
00:07:46.200 So the first thing is to understand you're not alone.
00:07:48.520 That's one of the biggest lies that guys believe when they're struggling, right, is I'm the only one.
00:07:52.960 Nobody else has gone through this.
00:07:54.300 The reality is millions are struggling.
00:07:56.660 And I think this is the first step is to just break the silence.
00:07:59.900 Like, don't don't do this alone.
00:08:01.620 I know this is something you talk about a lot.
00:08:03.200 You have your iron counsel.
00:08:04.540 I mean, there's so many ways that people can break out of it.
00:08:07.740 From an addiction perspective, shame is a huge driver of addiction.
00:08:11.260 And the main message of shame is to hide, right?
00:08:13.880 Stay hidden.
00:08:14.840 Don't let anybody see you.
00:08:16.140 You don't want to be found out.
00:08:17.380 And so I think that's a really good first step for guys to do is just to start talking about it, whether they're talking about it in communities where there's trust.
00:08:24.760 Maybe they have to go elsewhere because there's nobody in their close network that they can actually trust.
00:08:29.700 That doesn't really matter.
00:08:30.820 But you got to start talking about it.
00:08:32.440 You got to get it out in the open and bring a light to the dark places.
00:08:35.900 Otherwise, the shame will continue.
00:08:37.720 And so will the addiction.
00:08:39.640 Do you do you think, though, that there's a use for shame and guilt?
00:08:43.380 Because we wouldn't have those emotions as human beings if they weren't designed to serve us in some capacity.
00:08:49.560 So I can see that shame might drive you to be quiet about it and not disclose these things.
00:08:55.240 But also, I think shame can, if used correctly, be a powerful source of motivating change in your life.
00:09:02.580 Yeah.
00:09:02.880 So, OK, I would make a slight distinction there.
00:09:04.980 I would say there's a place for guilt.
00:09:07.540 So guilt is I've done something bad.
00:09:11.300 Shame is I am bad.
00:09:13.380 So shame is like there's something fundamentally wrong with me.
00:09:16.140 And I don't think there's a place for that that actually serves a healthy purpose.
00:09:19.680 Whereas guilt is necessary.
00:09:21.880 If we didn't have guilt, we would all be murderers and adulterers and we wouldn't feel anything about it.
00:09:26.860 So guilt is the thing that tells us we crossed the line.
00:09:29.620 And I think that can really keep us back on track.
00:09:32.200 I think that's honestly God given to be able to experience guilt.
00:09:36.060 I personally believe that shame is really not that valuable.
00:09:40.060 I do think if you didn't feel any shame, there'd be almost something wrong with you.
00:09:44.640 Like it is something we all experience as humans.
00:09:47.400 But as far as actually eliciting positive change in your life, I think guilt can serve a place.
00:09:52.360 I think generally our goal is to become shameless about it, though.
00:09:56.480 That's a good distinction.
00:09:57.660 I think sometimes we use those words interchangeably.
00:10:02.260 And I'm glad you made that distinction because I would agree with that.
00:10:04.900 But you do see these people, and you've even said it, I've said it, that person has no shame.
00:10:09.420 Meaning they have no, I guess the way I would describe it is no awareness of how they're showing up, of cultural norms, of respectful boundaries towards other people.
00:10:23.780 And that's an interesting, that's almost psychopathic to me.
00:10:28.140 Yeah, I agree.
00:10:29.240 Yeah, like we, again, that's what I was saying.
00:10:31.520 I think if we're actually shameless, if we actually don't experience it, there's probably something a little bit wrong with us.
00:10:37.000 But the word I would use in those contexts is actually self-awareness.
00:10:41.400 That's our first pillar of recovery, by the way, is building self-awareness.
00:10:44.880 I think it's when people lack that awareness at a social level and an individual level, that's when they're the psychopath or they're the weirdo.
00:10:52.780 But I think shame generally, when shame is actually at play, it's telling you to hide.
00:10:59.220 Because if we talk about this, like the shame-fear control cycle.
00:11:03.500 So shame tells you, hey, you might get me found out.
00:11:07.440 Don't get found out.
00:11:08.520 So you're afraid of getting caught.
00:11:10.280 And that forces you to control the situation.
00:11:12.520 You put on a facade.
00:11:13.620 You clear your browser history.
00:11:15.040 You do something to control the situation so that you don't get found out.
00:11:19.760 And I think that that shame cycle, I don't think there's any place for that.
00:11:23.320 And I don't think anyone's any better for having that in their lives.
00:11:27.000 The way you're describing it almost makes it sound as if, and I don't necessarily think this is the way.
00:11:32.760 I don't think you're even saying it this way.
00:11:34.500 But there's got to be a distinction between our motives for improving behavior.
00:11:39.700 So if your pure motive is what you're saying to delete browser history and to hide and these sorts of things,
00:11:46.600 your motive might not be improved behavior.
00:11:50.040 Your motive is just, I know that it's bad and it's wrong and I shouldn't do it.
00:11:54.220 Not, I want to change and I want to improve and I want to be a better man.
00:11:59.700 Yeah.
00:12:00.060 And I think that is the distinction between whether you're operating out of shame and letting shame rule the day
00:12:05.760 or whether you're actually trying to combat it.
00:12:08.400 Because I think if you let shame rule the day, you just do everything to hide.
00:12:11.860 It's all preserving and it's kind of survival mode.
00:12:15.080 I think if you're working towards something, you still might acknowledge, hey, I feel ashamed about this.
00:12:20.260 But the way you respond is totally different.
00:12:22.200 It's not to save face and it's not to make things look a certain way.
00:12:26.320 You're accepting the consequences of your decision.
00:12:28.660 And then you have something bigger that's driving you to actually change your behavior.
00:12:33.320 Yeah.
00:12:34.200 Do you feel like the narrative generally has changed too?
00:12:37.080 Because I think if we were to have this discussion five years ago, there would be a larger contingent of people, men in particular.
00:12:43.360 And maybe we can talk about that, the amount of men that watch pornography versus women.
00:12:47.380 But I'm assuming it's greater with men, of course.
00:12:50.480 Yeah, the ratio is about two to one.
00:12:52.640 Is that what it is?
00:12:53.280 Okay.
00:12:53.520 Yeah, I figured.
00:12:54.060 I think as I said a minute ago, if we were to look at this five years ago, I think there'd be a larger amount of people who would say pornography is not all that bad.
00:13:04.500 If you do it healthy, if you maybe you're watching it with your partner or you're not letting it rule your life and there's some, you know, entertainment or something behind it.
00:13:13.720 Like it seems like that would have been more prevalent than probably it is today.
00:13:18.360 Am I right in that thinking?
00:13:19.760 Oh, 100%.
00:13:20.720 Yeah, I think it was either pornography is kind of like alcohol in moderation.
00:13:24.820 It's not a big deal, but don't do too much of it.
00:13:27.560 And then there was the intimacy angle.
00:13:29.900 Pornography is a great way to spice things up in the bedroom. 1.00
00:13:32.420 And I think experientially it's been disproven.
00:13:35.320 I think enough people have experienced both and found out that porn is not really like alcohol.
00:13:39.620 Porn is more like cocaine.
00:13:41.060 Even a little bit is really, really lethal.
00:13:43.300 And I think on the intimacy side of it, there's actually a lot of research now that has followed couples for longer periods of time and shown, sure, within maybe a couple of weeks, you can say that watching pornography spices things up in the bedroom.
00:13:57.260 But over longer periods of time, those couples all report lower rates of marital satisfaction or relational satisfaction and sexual satisfaction.
00:14:05.880 So I think we just needed a little bit more time on our side for people to realize how devastating it actually is.
00:14:11.840 Well, you said something interesting, and I think we ought to define these couple of terms as well, because we said spice things up, and then almost interchangeably we said intimacy.
00:14:23.220 And I don't think those two are synonymous.
00:14:26.320 I don't think there's anything wrong with either of them, by the way.
00:14:30.840 Yes.
00:14:31.340 You can bring spice into your sex life, but that doesn't automatically equate to intimacy.
00:14:38.620 No, no, definitely not.
00:14:39.880 Okay, especially in this conversation.
00:14:41.840 Because if you think about what pornography conveys, it conveys that intimacy is basically just getting your sexual desires and fantasies met.
00:14:51.560 It's all about you.
00:14:53.000 And it's mostly physical.
00:14:55.180 In fact, I would say pornography portrays that it's purely physical, which we know isn't true.
00:15:00.160 I think real intimacy, even in the bedroom, we all know, anyone who's been married long enough or has been in a sexual relationship long enough knows that real intimacy doesn't actually start in the bedroom.
00:15:10.300 It starts outside.
00:15:11.680 It started three days ago when your wife was having a tough day, and instead of trying to give her a solution, you were just there and you listened to her.
00:15:18.660 Like, it starts way before that.
00:15:22.000 And I think people miss that.
00:15:24.160 But I would say, especially our client base, when we're serving people who are struggling with pornography addiction, this is an area.
00:15:29.420 That's why self-awareness is where we have to start.
00:15:31.100 Because there's actually such a reduced capacity for empathy and some of those other things that really drive intimacy that, you know, they're clueless.
00:15:39.820 They're kind of clueless.
00:15:40.700 Like, oh, I didn't know I needed this to have good intimacy in the bedroom and in my marriage.
00:15:45.260 I just assume that, you know, sex is physical.
00:15:47.200 That's what I've been taught.
00:15:47.900 I think the common knowledge is for nowadays, based on your work and everybody else who's in this field trying to, you know, rally against the pornography industry, is that it rewires the brain and it makes you, as you said earlier, less empathetic, less caring, less understanding.
00:16:07.640 I think we all would agree with that, but I'm actually curious why that's the case.
00:16:14.340 Obviously, you're objectifying a woman, so there's that. 0.98
00:16:17.980 And then she becomes, I think Matt Walsh calls it, a human masturbatory tool, which is a, you know, a perfect description of it. 0.97
00:16:27.420 But why does it make you less, how does that happen?
00:16:30.940 If you're in a, let's say, a 10-year committed relationship, how is it that pornography is going to make you less empathetic or less able to connect with your partner?
00:16:41.440 Yeah, it's a great question.
00:16:42.420 So I'm going to try not to geek out too hard on this, but I was a university researcher, so I love digging into the neuroscience of this a little bit.
00:16:48.220 I'll keep you in check if I need to.
00:16:49.860 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:16:50.320 Keep me in place here.
00:16:51.660 So there's four major things that happen to the brain when you watch pornography.
00:16:55.960 The first is a reduced stress response.
00:16:58.800 So literally, your capacity for stress is actually reduced when you're watching pornography.
00:17:04.380 And it kind of makes sense if you think about it.
00:17:06.200 You're chasing immediate gratification, instant rewards.
00:17:09.960 Stress requires a lot of resilience and long-term play.
00:17:12.320 You know, we can kind of see that.
00:17:13.800 The second thing actually plays into what you were just describing, which is it reduces your prefrontal cortex activity.
00:17:21.000 So the prefrontal cortex is where you make good decisions, executive decision maker.
00:17:25.960 It also is where you house a lot of your capacity for meaningful connection and relationships.
00:17:32.160 And literally, they can show that in the brain, you have less circulation to this part of your brain.
00:17:37.400 And so you don't have the same capacity or function to relate to people human to human.
00:17:43.620 They become a lot more object to object.
00:17:45.540 In fact, there's some surveys or some studies that showed people who even masturbate chronically, when you engage in this kind of compulsive sexual behavior, the same part of your brain that is used when you're using a tool is the part that's active when you're engaging in these activities.
00:18:01.180 So the idea is that the person on the screen or the act of masturbation is like a tool for your brain, but there's no personal connection.
00:18:09.060 There's no kind of human experience.
00:18:11.020 It's very transactional.
00:18:12.280 Very much so.
00:18:13.660 Yeah.
00:18:13.880 And really, it makes us no different than the animals, right?
00:18:16.560 Like that's kind of how they relate and transact.
00:18:19.060 So those two effects are really devastating.
00:18:21.420 But if someone's been watching pornography for a long time, which, you know, for me, I was addicted for 15 years.
00:18:26.240 I really fell into the next two categories quite a bit.
00:18:29.440 So the third effect is desensitization.
00:18:32.840 And desensitization is exactly what it sounds like.
00:18:36.240 It's that you build up this tolerance and the things that used to give you that rush and that release no longer cut it.
00:18:42.920 So you either need to watch more intensity or something new.
00:18:46.820 And this is why somebody can start off.
00:18:48.840 You know, for me, I started off like downloading stuff on Kazaa and LimeWire.
00:18:52.460 I don't know if you ever got into any of those services, right?
00:18:55.120 No.
00:18:55.480 These are like you could download, you know, files that somebody would just throw up on the Internet.
00:18:59.020 And that's how I start to access pornography.
00:19:00.600 But it was relatively vanilla.
00:19:03.240 But as time went on, I started to watch more hardcore stuff.
00:19:06.800 And thankfully, I would say I got out of it before it spiraled into anything else.
00:19:11.360 But we've worked with our share of clients who have started to watch. 0.98
00:19:14.020 They watch gay porn, even though they're not gay. 0.99
00:19:16.520 But it's the novelty of it. 1.00
00:19:18.380 Or, I mean, there's like there's animal porn.
00:19:20.100 There's all kinds of obscurity on there.
00:19:22.040 And it'd be easy to judge and be like, well, who would ever do that?
00:19:24.480 But honestly, everyday people do that because their brains are getting so desensitized that it's causing them to seek these things out just to get the same hit that they had when they first started watching.
00:19:35.080 And then the fourth thing is interesting if I can say one thing on that is I've actually heard that.
00:19:40.000 I don't know, obviously, to the degree that you do, but I have heard that there are men who would consider themselves homosexuals who will actually, I wouldn't say fault necessarily, but credit pornography use as a factor behind their sexual attraction.
00:20:00.600 Yeah, 100%.
00:20:02.420 And it's literally exactly this dynamic.
00:20:04.860 It's that they experience desensitization and they start to look for something new, something different. 0.62
00:20:10.200 They find gay porn and then they experience arousal from it because all pornography has an arousing component and it doesn't necessarily say anything about your orientation. 0.91
00:20:19.920 But if you don't know that and you say, well, I found this way more interesting than all that vanilla porn I used to watch. 0.98
00:20:25.140 Maybe I am gay. 0.76
00:20:25.860 Like you start to go down this path and start to kind of draw some conclusions or try to reconcile why this is arousing for you when something else that should be normal and heterosexual isn't.
00:20:36.000 So it is a common experience.
00:20:37.820 And it's not just with same-sex attraction and being gay.
00:20:41.660 It's actually with all kinds of things.
00:20:43.560 The porn that we watch can cause us to draw a lot of conclusions about ourselves that play into the shame thing we were talking about earlier.
00:20:50.460 Like what might that be?
00:20:52.660 I know I want to get to that fourth thing, but what might a conclusion that you would draw be by viewing different types of pornography?
00:21:01.020 So I think the more obscure we get, like the easier it is to depict this.
00:21:05.180 But I'll give one that's a little bit more – honestly, it's pretty mainstream this day.
00:21:08.860 This is dominant pornography.
00:21:10.860 So the idea is there's a little bit more violence and a little bit more aggression that's exerted.
00:21:15.580 And I would say the same thing can happen here.
00:21:18.060 So if you listen to someone like Billie Eilish's story, right, so she's a girl, different side of the experience.
00:21:24.140 But she talked about how when she starts to have sexual relationships, she naturally starts to do things that she was watching in the pornography she saw when she was a kid.
00:21:33.380 For her, pornography was sex ed like it is for most of us.
00:21:36.340 And she didn't realize that it was S&M content.
00:21:39.040 She just assumed that was normal pornography because that's kind of what mainstream has become today, to be honest.
00:21:43.020 But the point is she starts to have normal sexual experiences, what she thought were normal.
00:21:48.220 And then afterwards she was wondering, like, why do I feel so disgusted with myself? 0.55
00:21:51.400 Like I thought sex was supposed to be good and da-da-da-da.
00:21:53.820 And then as she starts to get more informed, she realized, oh, those are actually not normal sexual experiences.
00:21:59.600 They're just reflective of what I saw in pornography, which is what I thought was normal.
00:22:03.520 And so with dominant stuff, you get a lot of guys trying to do certain things or thinking that certain things are normal in the bedroom.
00:22:09.080 When they're not, it's just that they're normal to them because it's become so mainstream in the pornography that they view.
00:22:15.420 You know, I've even heard women who will say if they're intimate with somebody, they know if that person watches porn or not. 0.98
00:22:22.600 I believe that.
00:22:23.320 Just by the way they perform in the bedroom.
00:22:25.360 Yeah, I believe it.
00:22:26.620 Well, women especially can kind of feel – because we know like sex is not just a physical experience. 0.98
00:22:31.260 It's spiritual and it's emotional and I think women can really feel that difference when they're engaged for the intent of, you know, making love as it were or connection and intimacy versus when this is a physical transaction and they're trying to just act out something that they've seen in pornography.
00:22:46.580 And I'll raise my hand to this because when I started to have sex in my marriage, I mean, I really like my only experiences with sex prior were like I fooled around with a couple of girls and I had just watched years and years of pornography.
00:22:59.820 So I came in with a lot of those mindsets as well and our sex life over the years has gone a lot better because I have slowly unlearned some of those things and started to really learn how to connect with my wife beyond just the physical interaction.
00:23:12.320 But, I mean, yeah, porn had totally warped my brain and I really had to unwire a lot of that stuff.
00:23:17.860 So, I mean, not to get too personal and you can answer this or not, were there conversations that she had about what she liked and what she didn't like or what she appreciated about the way you guys were intimate?
00:23:29.460 Like how did you begin to unspool that without any – and I'm not saying you didn't have feedback.
00:23:33.940 I'm asking if you did from her.
00:23:35.780 Yeah, so we both took time to have those conversations.
00:23:39.800 I think we were feeling some of those things initially but it was probably about a year and a half that we finally had a conversation where we were talking about like do you enjoy this and like what has sex even just been like for you?
00:23:53.800 And that was really eye-opening and my wife kind of told me, you know, like sometimes it feels like you're really present and it feels like this is really helping our connection and sometimes it does feel like there's something disjointed about it.
00:24:05.880 And that was really helpful for me.
00:24:08.080 It was really helpful for me to ask, well, what can I do that would maybe help it feel like I'm more present?
00:24:13.860 And most of the stuff that she was looking for was not in the bedroom.
00:24:17.220 Most of the stuff was actually beforehand and she was just talking about how there was times where it felt like I was kind of forcing us to have sex or I had the expectation and there wasn't really a lot of wiggle room for her to say no or to feel like she couldn't do it.
00:24:29.240 And even that is like very much a porn thing.
00:24:31.820 Nobody's ever watched a porno where the girl said no, right?
00:24:34.840 Like it's just assumed it's an automatic yes if you get turned on and you have the drive.
00:24:38.560 So those are some of the things that we've had to kind of just discuss and reconcile.
00:24:42.800 And I would say that the big difference now for me when I reflect on how I approach sex when I first got married and had that porn brain versus now where I would say I have unlearned a lot of it is I'm just a lot more patient.
00:24:53.920 You know, and I think that that was one of the big messages I took away from porn is, you know, you're supposed to do five different positions.
00:25:00.440 It should last about 25 minutes long.
00:25:02.360 And, you know, like it's all about getting to that climax.
00:25:05.600 And I think for me, I've just learned to be patient, enjoy the process and be present in the moment.
00:25:10.400 And that that's gone a long way to having a better sex life, a more enjoyable sex life, but also to just having a more fulfilling marriage.
00:25:17.860 Well, yeah, I mean, there's obviously something that should be just intuitive about it.
00:25:21.600 It's not it isn't meant to be performative.
00:25:24.400 It's supposed to be intuitive and you're reading each other and there's feedback.
00:25:28.840 So, yeah, that makes total sense.
00:25:30.920 Yeah.
00:25:31.020 The other side of this that I was thinking of is when you talk about desensitization, and this is probably something that that is for a lot of guys, is the proliferation of erectile dysfunction in younger and younger men.
00:25:42.260 I was just going to say that.
00:25:42.860 Who just cannot either get erect or cannot climax because of the desensitization effects.
00:25:51.580 Yeah.
00:25:51.960 So this is where we can go to a different angle of the brain science.
00:25:55.060 They call pornography pornography a super normal stimulus.
00:25:59.820 And what they mean by that is the level of stimulation that pornography provides your brain and your body are unnatural, like they're unnaturally high.
00:26:09.700 Now, we'll actually go another step further.
00:26:12.040 And I just found this out recently.
00:26:13.200 We brought an expert into our community who specializes in sexual abuse because obviously, unfortunately, that's also becoming more prevalent.
00:26:19.660 And it is in some of the stories of our clients.
00:26:21.760 And he told me this stat that I really haven't been able to shake since I've heard it.
00:26:25.460 He said that sexual stimulation is processed 20% faster in the brain and the body than any other form of stimulation.
00:26:33.740 So let's piece all this together now.
00:26:35.700 So you have pornography, a super normal stimulus.
00:26:38.380 The intensity is abnormally high.
00:26:41.120 Plus, it's getting processed faster in your brain and body than anything else that's ever experienced before.
00:26:46.020 If you do that once, okay, that's a euphoric experience.
00:26:49.460 You get on with your life.
00:26:50.620 But if you get exposed at a young age, which most guys are, and then you watch with some regularity into adulthood, you have now conditioned your body to a very high level of stimulation just to experience arousal.
00:27:04.900 And if you're starting to watch more hardcore stuff, you're starting to watch more frequently or more niche stuff like we were talking about just a few minutes ago, that kind of stuff is all designed for you to keep getting and keep matching that level of stimulation.
00:27:17.620 You really think a real person with all their flaws and imperfections is going to match up to that?
00:27:23.680 There's no chance.
00:27:25.240 And so that's why guys are experiencing erectile dysfunction, delayed ejaculation.
00:27:30.260 A whole plethora of issues is coming all because of this porn epidemic and especially the young exposure.
00:27:36.340 I can't stress that enough.
00:27:37.640 It's young exposure that really creates a lot of these dynamics.
00:27:42.040 Man, I'm just going to step away from the conversation for a minute.
00:27:44.620 So many men know that they want to improve their lives, but like mice on the wheel, they're working as hard as they possibly can and they're getting nowhere.
00:27:55.020 It's exhausting.
00:27:56.820 I was the same.
00:27:58.240 And frankly, I didn't really have anyone or anywhere to turn.
00:28:02.200 I realized that if I was going to solve my problems, I was going to have to figure out on my own.
00:28:07.360 But that was a lot of time and a lot of energy. 0.94
00:28:11.360 Maybe I was stubborn enough or maybe I was stupid enough to figure it out over a lot of years, a lot of frustration, and a lot of money. 0.93
00:28:19.380 But you don't have to do that. 0.99
00:28:21.400 We have the systems.
00:28:22.880 And as one of the most influential and leading names in the men's self-development space, we created the processes that so many men and other organizations now have piggybacked off of.
00:28:33.680 And I'm not complaining about that.
00:28:34.780 It's a good thing.
00:28:35.300 We need more people in this battle, but I'm going to encourage you to go to the source of the solution and invite you to join our free battle ready program.
00:28:44.520 When you do, you're going to unlock access to the exact tools that tens of thousands of men have used to get their lives back on track.
00:28:52.640 Again, this is a free program and we're going to give it all to you so you can improve your life in less time and less investment than I had to do 10 years ago.
00:29:02.620 If you're interested, go to orderman.com slash battle ready to gain access right now.
00:29:08.600 Again, that's orderman.com slash battle ready.
00:29:12.540 All right, guys, let me get back to it with Cynthia.
00:29:14.560 Is there any sort of connection that has been made between not just a man's desire for more sexual encounters or more niche like you're talking about based on his pornography use?
00:29:27.920 Can the same connection be made for ordinary everyday life type scenarios like watching one of your kids play a sports game or having the motivation to do work?
00:29:41.200 You know, it is that desensitization spilling over not just into your sexual desires, but your everyday ordinary activities.
00:29:50.080 Yes, definitely.
00:29:51.320 I would say decreased motivation for sure.
00:29:54.000 I mean, the research is really clear about that.
00:29:56.640 Decreased motivation and then more risk of depression and anxiety, actually.
00:30:00.720 So they both kind of play into each other.
00:30:02.820 If you have depression or anxiety, you're more likely to resort to things like pornography and vice versa.
00:30:07.420 We haven't talked about the fourth thing that happens to the brain, and this might be the right place for it, which is the opposite.
00:30:13.580 So desensitization was the third thing.
00:30:15.620 The fourth thing is sensitization.
00:30:18.220 And sensitization is when things that are seemingly ordinary remind you of pornography or increase your cues and your cravings for pornography.
00:30:27.660 And I think this is actually probably the more notable everyday kind of impact that pornography has.
00:30:33.680 You're at the mall and you see somebody that reminds you of a porn star that you watched, and now you're fantasizing, and now you're imagining those scenes, and now your brain has gone to that place.
00:30:44.280 If it was another person who didn't have that same attachment or that same sensitization in their brain, that's just another woman walking down the mall. 0.98
00:30:52.680 But because of the way your brain has been programmed by what you've watched, you have that sensitization.
00:30:57.160 And now things that are just normal everyday things are actually triggers for you.
00:31:02.060 There are points for you to get tempted and to have a slip or have a relapse.
00:31:06.660 Yeah, and I'm sure there are little things.
00:31:07.720 I've had that happen in the past, you know, when I did watch pornography where, like you said, it was the person or somebody told a story or, I mean, just some of the most random things.
00:31:16.580 I'm like, why am I thinking about that right now?
00:31:18.800 Yes, exactly.
00:31:19.500 Is there an amount of time that it takes to begin to regulate your brain, for lack of a better term, where if you're not exposing yourself to pornography, then is it, you know,
00:31:34.420 you have to do that for a month before you start to see the effects of this sensitization?
00:31:39.820 Yeah, it's going to be different from one person to the next.
00:31:43.600 Like for me personally, I would say the four things I just listed, most of them are basically gone.
00:31:49.080 It's been, I think the last time I watched, well, the last time I watched pornography was February 2016.
00:31:53.640 So it's been a long time for me.
00:31:55.280 I still deal with sensitization every once in a while.
00:31:58.340 It still comes up or just random things trigger me or I start fantasizing or whatever.
00:32:03.400 I mean, it could also just be that you're a man, right?
00:32:06.020 Like obviously there's that aspect of it too.
00:32:08.400 I mean, you shouldn't overlook that.
00:32:10.600 No, for sure.
00:32:11.740 But I think some of the specifics around it, I can tell are definitely related to the years that I was watching pornography.
00:32:18.300 But what I would say is as quickly as, honestly, as quickly as 30 days, your brain can begin to change if you're having a roots-based approach to your recovery.
00:32:28.040 So just stopping the behavior is one thing.
00:32:30.120 Your brain will respond to that.
00:32:31.560 But what we've really pioneered and championed is a roots-based approach.
00:32:35.960 And, you know, the first stint that people work with us is four months long.
00:32:39.900 In four months, people's brains can be in a radically different state if they're really having a roots-based approach.
00:32:45.180 So it doesn't have to be years for your brain to rewire and for you to really step into that healing.
00:32:50.300 It can happen pretty quickly.
00:32:51.660 And to me, that's like one of the greatest discoveries of neuroscience in the last 30 years is that your brain can change.
00:32:56.740 Even if you're 75 years old and you've been watching pornography for six decades, your brain can still change and you can still reverse the effects.
00:33:05.160 And can you reverse the physical effects too, right?
00:33:08.220 Definitely.
00:33:08.580 So let's say, for example, a young man has erectile dysfunction or I think you said delayed ejaculation.
00:33:14.340 Do those things start to regulate with avoidance of pornography?
00:33:19.260 So I wouldn't say they happen just because you avoid pornography.
00:33:22.400 I think this is where the roots-based approach thing comes into play because typically when guys experience erectile dysfunction, a whole downward spiral happens after, right?
00:33:31.240 They start to question their sexuality, they question their masculinity, they start to feel really insecure, they develop performance anxiety.
00:33:38.200 There's a whole onslaught of issues that come with erectile dysfunction because it is so core to our sense of manliness and our sense of self.
00:33:46.200 So I think if you stop watching pornography, that might help a little bit, but you really do have to get a little bit more underneath the surface, that roots-based approach I'm talking about.
00:33:54.920 But that's what's going to ensure that not only does your body respond normally, but you're also relating to people on a more healthy level and having regular sexual experiences.
00:34:05.380 So it absolutely can be done.
00:34:07.140 My lead coach is a great example of this.
00:34:09.440 He had what's called porn-induced erectile dysfunction.
00:34:11.860 So this is actually like a clinical thing.
00:34:14.120 And after he quit pornography, he still dealt with some erectile dysfunction.
00:34:18.060 It wasn't until he healed some of the deeper parts, that's when he starts to have a much healthier sex life in his marriage.
00:34:23.740 And his body was starting to perform more regularly.
00:34:26.840 Yeah, no, that makes sense.
00:34:29.600 I'm actually really curious about this roots-based approach because if I remember correctly, and please tell me if I'm wrong,
00:34:36.260 things that we would generally think of like keeping track of the streaks, for example, is something that you're not an advocate for, I don't think.
00:34:45.380 So yeah, explain that and then let's get into that roots-based system.
00:34:49.120 Yeah, so I'll set this up.
00:34:50.900 This is actually perfect.
00:34:51.680 So there's a difference between sobriety and freedom.
00:34:55.220 Sobriety is I don't do the thing anymore.
00:34:57.720 It's behaviorally focused and it's typically what drives people to count streaks.
00:35:03.560 The problem with a sobriety approach is that you can manipulate behavior.
00:35:08.240 It doesn't really mean you're changing as a person.
00:35:10.280 And I think we all fundamentally know that if you really want to change something as dramatic as a porn addiction,
00:35:16.080 and you don't want to be that person anymore, you can't just slap on an internet filter and expect that to do all the work for you.
00:35:22.700 In fact, a lot of these quick fixes are really just reinforcing what pornography tells you,
00:35:26.880 which is that you can get results right away.
00:35:28.740 And that's not true in life.
00:35:30.020 Generally, you have to do the work for it.
00:35:32.620 So when we work with our clients, the first thing we establish is we're not after sobriety and we're not interested in your streaks.
00:35:39.620 We want to pursue freedom.
00:35:42.500 And freedom, that's the term we use to describe a more inner-focused approach where we're trying to get underneath the surface.
00:35:47.980 Because we're trying to change the heart of the individual, knowing that if we change the heart of the individual,
00:35:53.560 eventually the behaviors will follow suit.
00:35:56.360 And it doesn't mean that we don't track anything at all.
00:35:58.680 It's just that instead of counting streaks, we track trends.
00:36:01.740 So I'll give you a really good example of this.
00:36:04.260 This is when we were just first starting to discover this concept.
00:36:06.760 We were just sort of playing around with it.
00:36:08.500 And we had our clients start to just track how many relapses do you have per month?
00:36:12.160 Instead of going, you know, how long can you go without watching porn?
00:36:15.720 Let's just track how many slips you have per month while you go through our system.
00:36:19.260 So we had a client and the first month that he worked with us, he had 23 slips.
00:36:23.320 So that's not good.
00:36:24.820 You know, that's a lot.
00:36:26.000 Every day essentially, yes.
00:36:27.400 Yeah.
00:36:27.900 And again, if we were trying to pursue the sobriety thing and we were counting streaks, by all accounts, this guy was a failure.
00:36:34.320 But we just said, hey, just trust the process.
00:36:36.240 Keep working with us.
00:36:37.560 Month number two, 18 slips.
00:36:39.760 So if we track trends, we can find a little bit of hope that things are going in the right direction.
00:36:45.260 They went from 23 to 18.
00:36:46.920 It's not perfect, but it's moving the right way.
00:36:49.620 Month number three, eight.
00:36:51.540 So now we can see, okay, this is not just fluff.
00:36:54.120 Things are actually moving in the right direction.
00:36:56.580 Month number four, five slips.
00:36:58.240 By month six, he's at zero.
00:37:00.080 And that was a couple of years ago.
00:37:01.380 To this day, he still hasn't looked back.
00:37:03.700 So this is what I'm talking about when I say when you approach freedom, you still pay attention to something, but you track trends instead of counting streaks.
00:37:10.700 And this inner focus is what leads us into the roots-based approach.
00:37:14.660 So the whole premise, and I talked about this in the previous episode, so I won't be too redundant here, but if you had a weed that you were trying to get out of your lawn, you could run it over with a lawnmower and it would be clean for a couple days.
00:37:26.380 But as long as the roots are there, it's going to come back.
00:37:28.600 When we talk about a roots-based approach to recovery, what we're talking about is getting underneath the surface and try to identify the roots that are actually contributing to the porn addiction.
00:37:39.900 And this is where people get really shocked because it turns out that most root issues for your typical man are not sexual in nature.
00:37:48.200 Like we often reduce this conversation to, I just need to be more disciplined.
00:37:52.020 I just need to control my sexual desires.
00:37:54.140 I need to man up.
00:37:55.120 But it turns out that most root issues fall into one of three categories, the eyes, the mind, or the heart.
00:38:02.200 And what I specifically mean by the eyes is self-awareness.
00:38:06.500 What I mean by the heart, we can dive into more of these if you want, is changing your history, trauma recovery, all that kind of stuff.
00:38:13.500 And then when I'm talking about the mind, I'm talking really about shifting your identity, separating that self from, like we don't believe in like the once an addict, always an addict kind of stuff.
00:38:21.440 We believe your identity can completely shift when you have a roots-based approach and you leave that old life and that old identity behind.
00:38:28.860 And you said eyes was more along the lines of, what did you say, awareness or?
00:38:33.780 Building self-awareness.
00:38:35.440 Self-awareness, that's right, yeah.
00:38:36.720 Yeah, two components of that would be labeling emotions and defining thoughts.
00:38:40.940 So building that awareness of the inner life.
00:38:43.400 I guarantee you, if I, anybody who's listening, if I was to ask you about one of your recent slips or relapses,
00:38:49.540 if we went far back enough, there would be some sort of negative emotion, some sort of uncomfortable feeling you had.
00:38:57.540 And there were probably some thoughts that were circulating that were negative towards yourself, negative towards the world.
00:39:03.400 There was something going on at an inner level, but because you didn't have any awareness of it,
00:39:08.340 you couldn't catch it and nip it in the bud before it developed and blossomed into a relapse.
00:39:13.160 So the whole premise of self-awareness is you're just trying to get upstream and catch things quickly before they develop
00:39:19.780 and you become caught between a rock and a hard place praying, you know, God, bail me out and save me from this difficult moment.
00:39:25.560 We're trying to avoid those moments as much as possible.
00:39:28.320 Well, I like that you're talking about the eyes, the mind, and the heart because one of the things that I wrote down
00:39:34.220 just right before you started to get into that is I just wrote the word trauma.
00:39:38.080 Because what I've seen so many people do is they just blame every toxic or negative behavior on some trauma,
00:39:49.480 whether it was recognized or not.
00:39:50.780 And I'm not discounting the fact that maybe sexual abuse, which certainly is traumatic, could lead to what we're talking about.
00:39:58.000 But not everything is because of trauma.
00:40:00.980 You know, when I was drinking so heavily, it wasn't because it was traumatic.
00:40:05.180 It was because I like to get drunk and that's it.
00:40:09.460 Like, it feels good and I can check out from what's going on throughout the day.
00:40:14.160 So it's not traumatic.
00:40:16.140 It's one of these.
00:40:17.200 It's the self-awareness or the mind.
00:40:18.800 And so I'm glad it's a little bit more robust because everybody seems to just say,
00:40:23.000 well, you just have to figure out what that trauma was.
00:40:25.020 Maybe there wasn't trauma.
00:40:27.240 Yeah.
00:40:27.860 It's one of my least favorite things about the messaging around trauma is just that people have actually used it as another excuse to be a victim.
00:40:34.360 And they blame their trauma instead of really taking responsibility for their issues.
00:40:38.740 I don't want to discount trauma either because I would say it's an important part of the process that we go through is we do want to explore.
00:40:46.040 And I'll give my own story as a bit of an example.
00:40:49.940 I had a really good upbringing.
00:40:51.800 So I'm not the person that had sexual abuse and terrible trauma happen to me.
00:40:56.140 But sometimes trauma is not about what happens to you.
00:40:58.200 Sometimes it's about what doesn't happen to you.
00:41:00.460 And so one of the things I realized in my recovery process is my parents and my mom in particular didn't really show love to me the way that I feel loved.
00:41:10.100 And so I knew that my mom loved me because she provided for me.
00:41:13.060 She was very present.
00:41:14.400 She was not a bad mom by any accounts.
00:41:16.880 But she was also a very shy and reserved personality.
00:41:20.360 So I perceived that when I was young as like my mom doesn't care about me.
00:41:23.780 My mom doesn't love me.
00:41:24.700 It created this desire for female attention and affection. 0.99
00:41:29.440 So you can see how, again, when I'm young, this doesn't sound like a big deal.
00:41:33.100 But then when I'm in high school, I'm watching three hours of pornography a day.
00:41:37.440 There was a connection there.
00:41:38.980 And for me, that's something I really had to process and reconcile.
00:41:41.880 And it's not my mom's fault.
00:41:43.020 I'm not saying that my mom should have been a better mom and I never would have fallen into pornography.
00:41:46.200 But it's helpful to piece these things together because sometimes there are dynamics that happened when we were growing up that we don't even realize contributed to some of these bad habits and these bad relationships that we formed with things like pornography.
00:41:58.920 So that's what the heart component is really about.
00:42:01.760 But I like to broaden it a little bit more than that.
00:42:04.000 We can just call it changing your history.
00:42:06.100 And that's a play on words because obviously anybody who's watched pornography has cleared their history.
00:42:10.920 Yeah, exactly.
00:42:11.380 So the whole premise here is you change your history as in even if you did have something that happened in your past that's contributed to your addiction, you can reverse that.
00:42:20.840 And we have different tools to do that.
00:42:22.540 But you can reverse those effects.
00:42:24.500 But then the deeper layer of it is whatever your history is of addiction, whatever your history is with pornography, we can change that as well.
00:42:32.080 And usually most of that happens when people begin to dig into their hearts a little bit deeper and figure out what's really some of these causal elements.
00:42:40.120 Well, what I appreciate it is, like I said, it's more robust.
00:42:44.700 I just get so sick of hearing people say everything's traumatic.
00:42:49.560 And I would – it's hard for me to say what is traumatic to another person.
00:42:54.080 You know, that varies.
00:42:56.060 But trauma is being sexually molested.
00:42:59.200 Trauma is watching somebody you love be murdered in front of you.
00:43:03.120 Somebody calling you a bad name is not traumatic.
00:43:05.820 Yes, you're going to react to it.
00:43:09.140 Yes, you're going to make decisions even subconsciously based on it.
00:43:12.940 But if everything's trauma, nothing's trauma.
00:43:16.780 So I think it's important that we accurately describe, hey, you know what?
00:43:20.820 You had this experience.
00:43:22.000 It probably wasn't a traumatic life experience.
00:43:24.300 But it did cause you to look at life in a little bit of a different way and come to some conclusions even subconsciously that you're operating by now.
00:43:33.520 Yeah, we have a tenant that we only look at our past long enough to learn.
00:43:37.460 So I don't think there's anything wrong with going there.
00:43:40.080 But we don't want to just dig for every single trauma or dig for every single bad thing that ever happened to you.
00:43:46.320 In this context of addiction recovery, what we're trying to identify is what are the pieces that have made the biggest contribution?
00:43:53.440 If we can tackle those, it's kind of like if you move the big rocks out of the way, then all the little pebbles don't really matter.
00:43:59.840 You know, some people use language like capital T trauma versus little t trauma.
00:44:03.860 There's different ways you can distinguish this stuff.
00:44:05.780 But my personal thing is I would rather just focus on the things that we know were really impactful.
00:44:11.400 Like if we can get those things moving and get those things resolved and dealt with, then I think all the other things start to take care of themselves.
00:44:18.880 Well, I mean, I even see this with, you know, PTSD and again, traumatic, right?
00:44:24.160 Yeah.
00:44:24.320 But it's, again, not everything is, and I've seen one definition where it's when you as a human being change your behavior or your thoughts on a circumstance.
00:44:37.220 I'm like, that's a horrible definition because that's just being a human being.
00:44:41.960 I'm going to change the way I view things, maybe even to the slightest degree because you and I are having this conversation.
00:44:48.980 Does that mean it was traumatic?
00:44:50.300 Of course not.
00:44:51.660 Yeah.
00:44:52.000 Yeah.
00:44:52.400 I don't know.
00:44:53.560 To me, what this plays into, and you're going to get me on a soapbox now because this really drives me crazy, is I think a lot of people are using mental illness as identities.
00:45:03.340 And I think if I'm hearing you right, I think what it is is like it's bothersome when people start to form their identities around their trauma and what's happened to them.
00:45:12.940 And that's the story that gets projected right away.
00:45:15.900 I think that's a huge problem.
00:45:18.020 I mean, I've been talking about this even with like personality tests.
00:45:20.760 I don't know.
00:45:21.420 I don't know where your stance is on all this.
00:45:22.720 But, you know, people are like, oh, I'm an Enneagram 8.
00:45:25.080 I just I'm just not good at that stuff.
00:45:26.660 And it's like, what are you talking about?
00:45:28.160 Like, that's that's not how this works.
00:45:30.080 But I think we're so eager sometimes to slap on labels to keep ourselves confined, to keep us in these boxes.
00:45:36.180 And all it does is it just rids us of the very responsibility that we need to change our lives.
00:45:40.540 So I'm with you.
00:45:41.820 I think I think we have to use a lot of wisdom and discernment because the pendulum can swing too far and it can end up doing more harm than good.
00:45:49.280 Yeah.
00:45:49.840 On those personality tests, I've done a few, but there only is the trial one.
00:45:55.020 And it sends me an email and I'm like, oh, cool.
00:45:56.860 It tells me I'm all the things I already knew I was anyways.
00:45:59.340 So I never really.
00:46:00.540 But I think this ties into what you're saying about the self-awareness.
00:46:04.140 Some people just are not aware.
00:46:05.740 But if you have any sort of self-awareness, you know what drives you, you know what motivates you, you know what you like, you know what you don't, you know what your attitude is.
00:46:14.020 You know if you're a red or a yellow or a green or whatever the colors are, like, you know all of that.
00:46:19.040 And it's good to know as long as you don't, to your point, make it your identity.
00:46:25.540 You know, I hear people will say things like, well, I'm just bad at names.
00:46:28.600 Well, just then get good with names.
00:46:30.740 Yeah.
00:46:31.800 Yeah.
00:46:32.160 Like that's just a skill issue.
00:46:33.380 Yeah.
00:46:33.880 Right.
00:46:34.240 I mean, certain people probably have the aptitude for being able to remember names better than other people.
00:46:39.340 But you're a human being capable of developing new skills and ideas.
00:46:43.840 Just get better at it.
00:46:45.640 So I'm with you.
00:46:46.660 We're not falling into this victimhood trap.
00:46:49.720 And I think part of that, too, comes from society today that rewards you and almost makes it seem as if you're virtuous just because you're a victim.
00:46:59.920 When I don't think it's virtuous.
00:47:01.660 I think it's horrible.
00:47:03.140 Don't get me wrong.
00:47:04.240 Yeah.
00:47:04.720 But it's not virtuous to be a victim.
00:47:06.580 It's virtuous to overcome being a victim.
00:47:09.200 One hundred percent.
00:47:10.720 Yeah.
00:47:11.280 It feels like we have a lot of incomplete stories.
00:47:13.700 Right.
00:47:14.300 It's like the participant medal.
00:47:16.240 Like it's the whole same kind of culture.
00:47:18.040 It's it's like our whole concept of reward and victory and winning and all that kind of stuff has been very, very diluted.
00:47:25.700 And I think I think I think it's making a lot of men powerless and irresponsible.
00:47:29.840 Now, I know your audience is not like that.
00:47:32.220 Obviously, if you listen to a show like this, you're about taking ownership.
00:47:35.220 You're about taking control and gain responsibility for your life.
00:47:38.880 I think that the thing that guys in this category need to be a lot more reticent of is making sure that they're taking responsibility for the right things.
00:47:47.160 That that's one thing that we sometimes talk about in our community is there's there's kind of this fake responsibility or false responsibility where guys either take on too much.
00:47:55.760 They become, you know, responsible for other people and their well-being and they get really concerned about what other people think.
00:48:01.620 They try to control those situations or they just take responsibility for things that aren't their business.
00:48:07.160 I think drawing those lines really clearly is that is the that's really the epitome of a man who's taking control of his life is when you've clearly defined what it is that you're responsible for and you're taking full responsibility for it.
00:48:19.880 And in the addiction recovery process, I mean, this is literally this is step one.
00:48:23.720 Right.
00:48:23.880 Like this is identifying, OK, I have a problem.
00:48:25.960 OK, I understand that my problem has caused issues with me and with other people, but I'm going to own it.
00:48:30.800 And I'm going to do something about the parts that I can change.
00:48:32.800 And for married guys, I'll just comment on this really quickly, because married guys can sometimes have it really difficult with pornography addiction because their wives are hurt.
00:48:42.320 Their wives are betrayed.
00:48:43.340 Their wives feel like you went to something else other than me in an area where you should only need me. 1.00
00:48:49.020 And a lot of guys end up with kind of this like, oh, I need to fix my wife, too.
00:48:54.660 I need to fix my marriage.
00:48:55.640 I need to fix my wife and I need to, you know, get my addiction sorted out.
00:49:00.940 It's just not really true.
00:49:02.260 We really try to get guys focused on their recovery.
00:49:05.180 If their wives aren't going to do their own work or willing to kind of get some help for the stuff they're going through, that's their wife's decision. 1.00
00:49:12.340 It's not something you can control.
00:49:14.280 And again, those are just it's just an example of, you know, in this context, drawing clear lines on what you're responsible for and where you're really going to take ownership really, really goes a long way.
00:49:23.960 Yeah.
00:49:25.020 Would you consider pornography cheating or is there no use for even thinking about it that way?
00:49:32.940 I think pornography is cheating. 0.98
00:49:35.040 Yeah, I really do.
00:49:36.480 You know, because if you look at the effects it has on a relationship, they're very, very similar.
00:49:42.300 Now, I don't think pornography is the same as actually physically sleeping with another person.
00:49:47.240 But I do think I do think they're in the same category, which is that I mean, if we think about what cheating is or infidelity, it's just choosing someone else to to get needs met or to get your sexual desires met in a way that was supposed to be met with the one person you're faithful to.
00:50:04.320 So whether that's another person in real life or it's something virtually or digitally.
00:50:10.140 Yeah, I think porn is a mistress, no matter how you slice it.
00:50:13.820 I think this leads into a discussion I wanted to have.
00:50:17.100 And it was kind of I was tossing around the ideas to whether or not I wanted to have it because I want to talk with you about the future of the pornography industry.
00:50:23.900 And I hope it's not misconstrued as what we can look forward to, but what we ought to be able to prepare ourselves against.
00:50:32.400 Because if you play out, let's let's play out the pornography is cheating thing.
00:50:37.520 I think you could attempt to make the case that some sort of sex robot that will be available in the future isn't an actual other woman. 1.00
00:50:47.880 And so that's not cheating the same way some sort of, you know, fleshlight or or vibrator that a woman might have. 1.00
00:50:56.780 She would not consider that cheating.
00:50:58.460 But yeah, now you're getting into a completely different realm with sex robots and highly graphic and realistic virtual reality.
00:51:08.980 I think there's going to be a lot on the horizon.
00:51:12.240 Yeah, I think so, too.
00:51:13.820 And I shudder to kind of think about maybe the extent of it.
00:51:17.200 I mean, I talk about this in the book, not not about specifically my predictions on technology, but the the real danger of pornography as it has continued to advance is that it gives us exactly what we want, because we know that's not how things actually work in real life.
00:51:35.060 You don't you don't just spit out a perfect tan and get whatever you want in life.
00:51:39.260 And I think as we get more customizable experiences with AR and VR and bots and all that kind of stuff is guys are going to start to get what exactly what they want.
00:51:52.200 And I think it's going to reinforce a lot of the things that are already making men very powerless and weak in our society.
00:51:58.220 So what comes from it?
00:52:00.520 I still don't know.
00:52:01.640 I don't have the crystal ball, but I would say two things are pretty much guaranteed.
00:52:05.320 Number one is the level of attachment is going to be a lot higher.
00:52:08.180 So if you can start to form this this person exactly the way you want them, that attachment is going to be very strong.
00:52:15.540 And it's no longer just I'm going to close my browser and stop watching pornography.
00:52:19.360 It's like to turn the VR machine off is going to feel like you're disconnecting from another person.
00:52:24.580 And that's a lot harder to do.
00:52:26.200 The attachment is going to be a lot stronger.
00:52:28.160 And I think the second thing is it's going to it's going to make the loneliness thing a lot more pervasive.
00:52:33.280 You know, like the addiction research really if there's anything I could do to summarize it, it would actually be a TED talk that came out about 10 years ago.
00:52:40.640 And it's by Johan Hari.
00:52:42.340 He's a British journalist.
00:52:43.200 And his big line was the opposite of addiction is not sobriety.
00:52:46.880 It's connection.
00:52:47.760 And so even in our in our circles, like when guys are working with us, we have a community, we do group coaching, there's a very strong communal element, because we know guys need to form relationships with other guys on this journey to actually move to that place of freedom.
00:53:02.080 And I think all of the technological advancements in this area in particular are going to isolate guys more and more, make them a lot more disconnected and and maybe even make them a lot more socially awkward and incapable of having normal connections, whether that's with another woman or even just with their buddies.
00:53:19.160 So I kind of started to think about it.
00:53:22.120 Yeah, I think it's going to be tough.
00:53:24.640 And I think it's something that we as men are going to have to be vigilant against.
00:53:29.180 Otherwise, these types of things will creep in easily and will justify and rationalize and make excuses as to why it's OK.
00:53:35.860 But that loneliness thing is is a great thing to consider, because you might be having your sexual needs met, but that's never going to replace the companionship of a woman or the way that she actually feels physically or what it feels like to be around her or what it might feel like when you have a woman with you who supports you and edifies you and uplifts you.
00:53:59.960 Those things cannot be replaced and you will.
00:54:03.020 Yeah, you'll be able to get off.
00:54:04.400 No problem.
00:54:05.340 But you're not going to be connected and well grounded.
00:54:08.500 No, no, definitely not.
00:54:10.440 And I do think that like this and this is where this whole conversation really takes like a broader perspective, because one of the things that I've realized in the last little bit and part of this is is in becoming a father, which I know is something maybe we'll get into a little bit in a little bit here.
00:54:25.980 But one of the things I realized is my work the last six years that I've been helping guys quit is it's not actually about helping guys quit pornography.
00:54:34.740 We start to just look at stories of our clients after they finish working with us.
00:54:38.800 And what we realize is they're becoming better husbands.
00:54:41.660 They're becoming better fathers.
00:54:43.100 They're changing sometimes their lineages because they're quitting pornography.
00:54:47.260 They're being better co-workers.
00:54:49.260 They're more productive at work.
00:54:50.880 They're more active in their communities because they have nothing to hide.
00:54:53.280 Like literally what I realize is the world is becoming a better place.
00:54:56.760 So we've coined this phrase, change the man, change the world.
00:55:00.120 And that's really what drives the work that we're doing.
00:55:03.020 We want to make the world a better place.
00:55:04.920 And I think when it comes to technology, technology is a great tool.
00:55:09.300 And men will have the choice on whether or not technology is something that allows them to make this world a better place or whether it's something that actually ruins them and corrupts them and ends up making our world a worse place.
00:55:20.540 That choice is on every single man.
00:55:22.460 And I think for guys who are struggling with pornography, there's an urgency right now.
00:55:26.840 Because if you stay in this long enough, we all know this eventually goes into something darker, something different, or something that's more technologically advanced.
00:55:35.000 And it only gets harder to quit.
00:55:37.260 Now, I think now is the time to quit more than ever before.
00:55:41.440 Well, so you, and you mentioned this, you're a fairly new father.
00:55:45.740 How old is your son?
00:55:47.240 13 months.
00:55:48.480 13 months.
00:55:49.160 So over the past, a little over a year now, has anything changed with the way that you approach this work or anything about the way that you view what it is you do now that you have a son?
00:56:03.000 And the consequences of this are a little bit more tangible and real for you now.
00:56:07.220 Yeah, very real.
00:56:09.000 So what I just said, like the whole vision of change the men, change the world, and really dreaming about raising up a community of men who are leaders in society and modeling integrity, that whole vision came to me when my son was born.
00:56:24.880 I actually took a little bit of time off work, and between changing diapers and bottle feeds and all that kind of stuff, I just started to think a little bit more about why I do what I do.
00:56:34.220 And I was looking at him, and I was thinking, yeah, this kid, he's going to be exposed to, he's going to have technology way earlier than I did.
00:56:41.300 He's likely going to get exposed to pornography earlier than I did.
00:56:44.420 I'm going to do everything in my power to stop him, but, you know, it's everywhere.
00:56:47.880 And I actually, I'm not that concerned about him getting exposed.
00:56:50.600 My job is actually to prepare him for exposure.
00:56:54.440 That's my real role so that he has a healthy response to it.
00:56:57.860 But I think the thing I realized is because I've quit pornography, number one, I can talk to him about it openly.
00:57:05.000 I can share my story, and there's a happy ending to it.
00:57:08.300 And I can model to him that even if he does get wrapped up in pornography, which I pray to God does not happen, even if it did happen, he has a dad who is modeling what it could look like to break free of it.
00:57:19.780 That it's actually possible.
00:57:21.520 And I think that's what every single dad listening to this show can do for their kid when they quit pornography.
00:57:27.720 They carve a path that makes it possible for their other kids to follow down, but it also gives them more to talk about.
00:57:34.300 And it means that when they share, they're not a hypocrite who's saying, you shouldn't watch porn. 0.77
00:57:37.660 Meanwhile, they're struggling.
00:57:38.740 They're actually walking the walk, and I think kids can feel that difference.
00:57:42.040 I mean, time will be the true tell of that, but that's kind of the theory that I'm working with so far up until this point.
00:57:47.000 Well, and I think also you're a lot more credible if your son or my son or whoever is listening is dealing with pornography.
00:57:56.220 It's a lot more credible for me to have a conversation with one of my boys, knowing that I know the desire, I know the temptation, I'm intimately familiar with all of the reasons why.
00:58:09.800 Like, we can relate in that, and I can help you better overcome that because I was there.
00:58:14.800 I've been there.
00:58:15.380 I know exactly what it's like.
00:58:17.400 Yeah.
00:58:17.660 I think you end up with a lot more compassion for your kids as well, exactly what you're saying.
00:58:22.120 You can relate with them because I think when we're struggling and then we see our kids doing the thing that we don't want them to do but we're struggling with it, we tend to be a lot more rigid.
00:58:32.300 And it's out of a good place.
00:58:34.260 That thing was so bad for me.
00:58:35.760 I don't want you to do it either.
00:58:36.860 But when we lack that compassion, we're not relating with them or we're not even just showing them that it's okay to have these conversations with dad, then that ends up becoming a real problem, and they're much more likely to persist in the issue.
00:58:48.660 So I think that credibility piece is massive for building that trust and to ensure that your son doesn't go to his peers and he doesn't go to the internet to learn everything about sex, that he actually comes to you.
00:59:00.000 And that is possible if you're having these conversations early and in a healthy way.
00:59:04.160 Yeah, I mean, I definitely have realized the level of empathy just going through my own battles with my divorce and alcohol abuse.
00:59:11.920 I used to be a lot more judgmental about those two things than I am now.
00:59:16.600 And when I see a man struggling in alcohol abuse or any other substance or I see him in a separation or divorce, man, I feel that.
00:59:24.100 I can feel that in a way I did not feel it before.
00:59:27.080 Yeah, and you can also help people in a way that you couldn't help them before.
00:59:30.520 You could have given good advice about how to manage a divorce prior or any of those dynamics.
00:59:35.960 But once you've gone through it, there's an authority there.
00:59:38.940 The same advice you got might have been true because maybe you learned it from other people who had been there.
00:59:43.060 But when you're sharing something with authority, people can feel the difference, man.
00:59:46.360 And I feel the difference.
00:59:47.400 I was going through some of your content getting ready for the second interview.
00:59:49.640 And I could feel the shift in you from two years ago when I was preparing for my first interview.
00:59:54.160 You know, there's a lot of there's a lot of maturity.
00:59:56.280 There's a there's a wisdom there and there's a depth to to who you are and what you're providing your community here because of what you've gone through.
01:00:02.600 And that that is a really beautiful thing.
01:00:04.700 Yeah, I appreciate that.
01:00:06.060 There is one other thing I wanted to hit on.
01:00:07.960 Where do you see this going, the role of legislation?
01:00:12.200 We've seen a lot more legislation being passed on pornography sites needing to have I think some states require very like photo identification and verification.
01:00:23.240 Other states or I don't know if it's state based require just that you validate or prove that you're over 18 or something.
01:00:33.060 So do you see that being a crucial and effective element in combating pornography?
01:00:41.200 I think it's a good step in the right direction.
01:00:43.580 And I think for a couple of reasons.
01:00:45.620 So the first is that if you look at what every single porn addict has in common, they got exposed at a young age.
01:00:52.640 That's like almost a guarantee.
01:00:54.400 I don't even ask that question anymore because I know that they probably got exposed 13 or younger.
01:00:59.560 So I think if we're talking about really changing the conversation around the porn epidemic and all that kind of stuff, it has to start with protecting youth.
01:01:07.720 I'm not of the opinion that pornography should be banned and outlawed altogether.
01:01:13.400 Not because I think it's okay or like it's good media in the right context or whatever.
01:01:18.940 I just think it's good for men to be exposed to the thing that they should avoid.
01:01:23.460 That's what makes you stronger.
01:01:24.560 You can't eliminate all the junk food in the world for you to get in shape, right?
01:01:29.840 Like at some point, you have to just realize junk food is there.
01:01:32.620 I need to learn how to make better decisions with food.
01:01:35.160 Yeah, but let me challenge that though.
01:01:37.000 Would you say the same thing about fentanyl?
01:01:41.720 I mean, I wouldn't say the same thing about fentanyl specifically, but pharmaceuticals at large, you know, I get what you're saying.
01:01:49.860 The point I'm making, like if pornography got eliminated, I'm not going to complain.
01:01:54.280 Don't get me wrong.
01:01:55.660 But I think when it comes to legislation, my main point or at least what I think is the most important is that when people are making a choice on whether or not they want to indulge in it, that they're actually an adult.
01:02:07.080 But they actually have like enough information and they've been educated to make that decision.
01:02:11.780 So that's why I think the legislation is positive is because the age verification laws that have been passed in, I think at the time of this recording, I think it's nine states that have passed some degree of it.
01:02:22.440 They're basically ensuring that you have to upload like a driver's license or something that proves you're 18.
01:02:26.640 And I think that additional barrier to entry is really, really valuable.
01:02:31.280 And it's not to say there aren't workarounds.
01:02:32.840 I know it's not the perfect solution, but I think it's going in the right direction where we're at least setting things up so that kids get exposed later in life.
01:02:40.660 And if they get exposed later in life, I think you see less of the addiction and less of those things developing.
01:02:46.460 Yeah, that makes sense.
01:02:47.400 It is interesting to me.
01:02:48.820 And by the way, I don't know the answer.
01:02:50.780 Should pornography be banned altogether or not?
01:02:53.320 You know, there's obviously proponents of pornography who make the case that it's a First Amendment right.
01:02:59.740 You know, we hear these types of things.
01:03:01.680 So I don't really, I don't know what the answer is.
01:03:06.240 But it is interesting when you hear people who say, well, pornography sites shouldn't have age verification.
01:03:12.260 And yet we place it on cigarettes.
01:03:14.320 We place it on firearms.
01:03:16.120 We place it on alcohol.
01:03:18.120 There's age requirements.
01:03:19.760 It's there's you have, but, but we don't do it to something that we know is just as destructive, if not more so than some of these other things that we place age restrictions on.
01:03:28.480 Yeah.
01:03:29.300 And it's funny.
01:03:30.200 I was actually, I was going to say that, but I don't know if I actually agree with what I was going to say.
01:03:33.840 I'll say it anyway.
01:03:34.740 I was going to say when it comes to sex, we tend to be a lot, a lot more lenient.
01:03:38.180 Like sex is just a lot more personal, but I mean, you can't get into a brothel or that kind of thing without some sort of age verification either.
01:03:46.300 Right.
01:03:46.700 Like there are some legalities that still protect those things.
01:03:49.400 So, yeah, Internet pornography has kind of become the wild, wild west a little bit.
01:03:53.380 And I, I think legislation is a good step.
01:03:57.380 And then my, my second answer to this question is I would love to see just more education about it in general happening in the schools for sure, but also at home.
01:04:07.380 I think the most powerful education happens at the home.
01:04:10.340 And I would love to see parents get a little bit more equipped to have these conversations and really prepare their kids for whatever it is they may encounter that is damaging sexually, whether it's pornography, whether it's predators.
01:04:24.500 There's, you know, there's a whole list of things that we need to be aware of when we're, when kids are growing up.
01:04:29.420 And I think seeing more education around that would be the second step that's going to be a lot more long term.
01:04:34.760 Like you can legislate alcohol, but I mean, I started drinking alcohol with my buddies when I was 14 years old.
01:04:40.220 You still do it, but I actually didn't really get drunk a lot.
01:04:43.980 Alcohol was not much of a vice for me because I had, I had learned, my parents actually taught me about the harmful effects of alcohol and drinking too much, even when you're a teenager.
01:04:53.040 And it, it just stuck with me.
01:04:54.860 So I think those things can go a long way.
01:04:56.920 I don't think we can rely on government to do everything for us, but I do think they can play a role.
01:05:01.160 And I think we can play a role at home as well.
01:05:03.940 I absolutely agree with that.
01:05:05.360 I don't think I agree with pornography education in the school system.
01:05:11.040 No, I just, I just do not.
01:05:13.160 Okay.
01:05:13.460 I thought that's what you said.
01:05:14.540 I thought you were alluding to that.
01:05:15.660 And I just, the school teachers are not qualified to have those types of discussions with our children.
01:05:21.520 They're just not.
01:05:22.720 No, I'm glad you brought that up.
01:05:24.040 I didn't.
01:05:24.760 Yeah, that's not what I meant.
01:05:26.580 I think that the schools can be talking about sex as it's age appropriate and the things that are associated with it.
01:05:33.380 And I think, I think schools should actually be warning kids about pornography and the dangers of it and what you might find online and teaching them how to respond.
01:05:41.240 That I think should be part of it.
01:05:43.720 But is that, is that what you're saying that you disagree with or is that?
01:05:48.140 Yeah, I don't, I don't know.
01:05:49.700 I don't know that that conversation should be broached at all in the school system.
01:05:53.520 Oh, at all.
01:05:54.000 Interesting.
01:05:54.360 I mean, teach my kids, Matt.
01:05:55.860 Well, I think, look, we've seen so much happen over the past several years about sexual identity, sexual perversion.
01:06:03.400 You have some teachers believe this, other teachers believe that, indoctrination, grooming, all sorts of problems with allowing boys into girls' bathrooms and boys into girls' sports.
01:06:15.260 And there's this whole perversion that's permeating the school system when it comes to sexuality.
01:06:22.400 And now all of a sudden, you're going to, you're going to ask school teachers to start talking about it.
01:06:27.900 Well, what if they don't mind pornography?
01:06:30.160 What if they're personally engaged in pornography?
01:06:33.060 Teach my kids math, teach them arithmetic, teach them to read, teach them about history.
01:06:37.760 But also, here's the wiggle room.
01:06:42.640 To your point earlier, you know, if a kid has a good home, they have a likelihood of learning those things at home.
01:06:48.680 We just know there's millions and millions of young boys and young girls who just do not have that opportunity at home.
01:06:54.400 So what do you do there?
01:06:55.820 And I get that.
01:06:56.460 I see that.
01:06:56.960 I think what I'm suggesting is that if teachers are, if they're going to talk about it in the education system, that they're warning about the harmful effects of pornography.
01:07:07.300 So not that the teacher can have carte blanche and just share their experience about pornography and bring their own biases into it.
01:07:13.560 I'm talking about, like, there's enough research about the harmful effects of pornography at this point that I do think the education system could put together a curriculum that actually warns about the adverse effects of it.
01:07:25.560 And that it's, I think if you're bringing up that subject, especially in schools now where kids are on devices and whatnot anyway, you might as well warn them about the dangers that come with the advices, the devices rather.
01:07:37.160 I think there's a place for that.
01:07:39.060 But I do agree with you.
01:07:40.480 Like, we know that teachers who disagree with it, they're not going to teach it or they're going to teach it wrong, wrongly.
01:07:45.840 And I think that is where that second layer comes in.
01:07:48.320 You can't always control what happens in the education system.
01:07:50.660 I suppose you could control whether your kids are part of that system or they're homeschooled or whatever.
01:07:54.220 But you can always do education in the home regardless.
01:07:57.260 And I think that's always going to be a lot more powerful.
01:08:00.160 And my children are homeschooled partly for that reason.
01:08:03.720 Yeah.
01:08:04.260 I don't blame you one bit.
01:08:05.120 My wife and I talk about it like once a month, what we're going to do with our kids because we're, yeah, we're very torn right now.
01:08:10.920 I live in Canada where some of these agendas have gone even further than they have in some of the states.
01:08:15.720 So it's a big thing for us to figure out as well.
01:08:18.400 Well, a lot to consider, a lot to think about.
01:08:21.480 Obviously, we're just scratching the surface on this fight and trying to help men overcome some of these things that are not serving them at all in their lives.
01:08:30.240 And so I appreciate you, man.
01:08:32.120 We've had a couple of conversations on the podcast and we've had several offline.
01:08:36.240 I love having our conversations.
01:08:37.600 It's good to have somebody who comes in who's thoughtful, who's intelligent about it, who's obviously well-versed in it.
01:08:43.500 I love having discussions like this.
01:08:45.860 Why don't you tell the guys where they can go to connect more with you, learn more about you've got that book out.
01:08:51.520 You've got some other programs and courses available.
01:08:53.560 So where do they go for that?
01:08:55.440 Yeah, for sure.
01:08:56.200 I mean, one of the things we're really trying to do is just get as many resources out as possible so people can access them.
01:09:01.720 We have a podcast called The Man Within, over 800 episodes.
01:09:05.360 So if we talked about something today or we didn't talk about something today that you want to find out more about, you can go to the podcast page.
01:09:11.060 You can search it and you should be able to find just about anything on there.
01:09:14.080 I do have a book called The Last Relapse and that's got my whole system for recovery.
01:09:17.940 We've had over 10,000 people go through that system.
01:09:21.080 And so it's tried, tested and true.
01:09:23.660 And if you are struggling, you know, and maybe you have something on the line or you know it's time to quit pornography, then you can book a call with my team and see if Deep Clean and the system we have here is a good fit for you.
01:09:34.340 So we'd love to provide all that to your audience and just resource them as much as we can.
01:09:38.700 Awesome.
01:09:39.280 Well, I appreciate the work that you're doing.
01:09:40.900 Thanks for joining me today, brother.
01:09:42.360 Thanks for having me, Ryan.
01:09:43.300 Man, there you go.
01:09:46.760 My good friend and advocate and man who's doing a lot of good work, Sathya Sam.
01:09:53.420 He is impacting thousands and thousands of men's lives all over the country, all over the world.
01:09:58.540 And if this is something that you're dealing with and confronted with, I would look no further than Sathya. 0.86
01:10:04.880 I can give him my fully backed endorsement that this is a man who's qualified, he's helping people, he's well-researched, he's well-versed, and him and his team are doing incredible things.
01:10:15.820 So check it out.
01:10:16.380 Take a look at his programs.
01:10:18.980 One is called Deep Clean, his book, which is called The Last Relapse, which is another great book on overcoming pornography addiction.
01:10:26.240 And then, of course, his podcast, Man Within.
01:10:29.040 Outside of that, check out my good friends over at Montana Knife Company and use the code ORDER OF MAN.
01:10:33.420 And the last thing is to check out our free program called The Battle Ready Program.
01:10:40.360 You can do that at orderofman.com slash battle ready.
01:10:44.340 Take control of your life, guys.
01:10:46.920 Really, take control of your life.
01:10:48.480 Stop letting other people do it.
01:10:50.360 Stop hoping it'll all work out.
01:10:51.900 Just, it's on you.
01:10:53.960 Nobody else is going to do it for you.
01:10:55.840 And you shouldn't want anybody else to do it for you anyways.
01:10:59.020 Go to orderofman.com slash battle ready.
01:11:01.220 All right, you guys, those are your marching orders.
01:11:04.040 We will be back tomorrow for our Ask Me Anything.
01:11:06.940 Until then, go out there, take action, and become a man you are meant to be.
01:11:12.840 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.
01:11:15.800 If you're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be,
01:11:19.820 we invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.