Order of Man

00:00:00.000 My guest today, Scott Payne, spent more than two decades working with some of the most notorious biker gangs, illegal drug operations, and neo-Nazis.

00:00:09.200 And it would be hard to even imagine some of the things that he's seen and experienced in his decades-long career as an FBI special agent.

00:00:17.820 Today, Scott and I talk about what it takes to be a successful undercover agent,

00:00:22.500 the line that gets blurred when working with some of the most dangerous criminals in the world,

00:00:26.900 how to keep your cool under pressure, including the time a notorious biker gang stripped him in a basement to search him for a wire that he was actually wearing at the time.

00:00:38.800 Also, how a man transitions back into his ordinary day life after one of the most dangerous jobs he could ever do.

00:00:45.960 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest.

00:00:48.920 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:51.600 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:55.920 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:01.380 This is your life. This is who you are.

00:01:03.860 This is who you will become at the end of the day.

00:01:06.580 And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:12.760 Men, welcome to the Order of Man podcast.

00:01:14.940 I am the host and the founder, Ryan Michler.

00:01:17.260 Thanks for tuning in.

00:01:18.560 Thanks for banding with us.

00:01:19.580 And thanks for being here.

00:01:20.960 If you're new, this is a podcast for men.

00:01:23.160 We talk to men.

00:01:24.060 We have influential men from athletes and scholars and New York Times bestselling authors and FBI agents and you name it.

00:01:34.480 We have them on the podcast if they've got exciting or crazy stories.

00:01:40.400 These also just stories of betterment and improvement and how to make ourselves better fathers, husbands, business owners, and community leaders.

00:01:47.780 Want to let you know real quick, guys, that we are shutting down the Iron Council tonight at midnight Eastern.

00:01:53.700 Again, that's our brotherhood, our exclusive brotherhood.

00:01:57.260 Again, that's orderofman.com slash ironcouncil.

00:01:59.580 If you've ever thought about it or been on the fence, go check it out.

00:02:02.880 I'll share a little bit more about it with you later.

00:02:05.080 For now, I want to get to my interview with Scott.

00:02:08.660 He is a retired FBI special agent with a 28-year career in law enforcement.

00:02:14.060 And throughout his tenure, he led investigations that targeted drug trafficking organizations, human traffickers, outlaw motorcycle clubs, gangs, public corruption, domestic terrorists, and beyond investigative work.

00:02:29.060 He served also as a SWAT team operator and an instructor in firearms tactics and undercover operations.

00:02:36.180 His undercover experience includes infiltrating dangerous groups such as the outlaws, motorcycle gang, and white supremacist organizations like the Ku Klux Klan and the base.

00:02:46.220 In his new book, Codename Pale Horse, How I Went, Undercover to Expose America's Nazis,

00:02:51.400 he details his undercover missions with America's extremist underworld and unpacks the psychological toll of undercover work as well as the pressing threats posed by domestic terrorism.

00:03:05.880 Well, man, I'm glad we can make this happen.

00:03:07.960 I know it's been a little bit in the works.

00:03:09.660 Yeah, me too.

00:03:10.640 You've lived a pretty interesting life, to say the least.

00:03:14.940 Well, it depends on which circles you're in, but yeah.

00:03:17.520 Yeah.

00:03:17.980 What do you mean by that?

00:03:18.660 Well, I mean, some people think it's amazing, but if you're from the world, it's not that, you know.

00:03:23.540 Well, that's true.

00:03:24.340 It's not like there's anything unique or special.

00:03:27.020 I imagine, for them, I mean.

00:03:29.240 Yeah.

00:03:29.420 But I imagine a lot of these guys that get into criminal activity, drug activity, gangs, drug trafficking, there's probably sex trafficking as well.

00:03:38.360 Yep.

00:03:38.480 Probably just got groomed up into it, I imagine.

00:03:41.060 Well, yeah, I'm definitely a believer in the product of your environment kind of thing.

00:03:46.480 I mean, I've seen it.

00:03:47.120 And, but yeah, some people get groomed into it for sure.

00:03:51.540 Yeah.

00:03:52.140 What got you into, did you always want to go undercover and work the way that you did?

00:03:57.580 I, you know, doing the book and stuff, you go back and you try to, I get asked these questions and you really dive deep and try to figure it out.

00:04:05.520 But for me, I've always been a gift of gab talker, which you don't have to be to be a good undercover.

00:04:14.960 Um, but that's my personality and, um, I just always love connecting with people.

00:04:21.380 So then as I, as I got older, um, bounced or I was learning the verbal skills, you know?

00:04:29.120 And then, uh, I went into law enforcement and I was, I was always a fan of anything undercover.

00:04:35.760 It could be a cheesy movie, but I'm like, I love it.

00:04:37.980 Uh, uh, and undercover biker stuff even more.

00:04:41.140 I'm like, yeah.

00:04:41.620 Uh, and then when I was at the sheriff's office, that's when I got a chance to, uh, uh, I, I made it to the narcotic squad.

00:04:48.460 So I'm an investigator.

00:04:49.480 Okay.

00:04:49.780 And then I went and got certified by the state and undercover techniques.

00:04:53.640 So I started working undercover.

00:04:55.320 Um, and I mean, once I did it, I mean, I had the bug.

00:04:58.560 Yeah.

00:04:58.980 Loved it.

00:04:59.520 Do you remember what your first, uh, assignment was or?

00:05:03.000 Yeah.

00:05:03.860 Yeah.

00:05:04.300 The, uh, uh, narcotic squad, mid nineties crack was still a big, big deal.

00:05:10.180 So, and, uh, the, this is just street level stuff.

00:05:14.780 So, um, but the, my, my training, I guess I want to say training agent because that's, I'm used to FBI, but, um, the, the people that were training me, uh, the narcotics officers who were longer in the tooth, we go out to do my, I'm going to do my first buy.

00:05:32.260 Right.

00:05:32.540 And they're like, Hey man, you just drive down the corner.

00:05:34.860 They're going to run up to your car and you just roll down the window and just say, you want a 20?

00:05:40.200 And cause that's what, I don't know how much a crack rock costs.

00:05:42.360 Okay.

00:05:42.720 Then.

00:05:43.800 And, uh, I rolled up, uh, I was already, I was six, four.

00:05:49.640 I might've been two 70.

00:05:50.780 I did not look like I smoked crack.

00:05:52.200 Right.

00:05:53.280 You're like, what's going on?

00:05:54.640 Unless I just started, uh, or I fell off the wagon.

00:05:57.560 And, um, but I rolled, I had on some baggy clothes and I rolled down, I get there and they run up to the window, the, the drug dealers on the street.

00:06:05.940 And then they run up to the window.

00:06:07.020 What you want?

00:06:07.640 What you want?

00:06:08.560 Man, I cracked.

00:06:09.340 I was so scared.

00:06:09.920 I cracked the window like I was sticking money into a vending machine.

00:06:13.980 And I was like, I want a 20, you know?

00:06:16.400 And they handed me a little sliver of it.

00:06:18.180 I was like, roll down the window.

00:06:19.020 He couldn't even hand it to me.

00:06:20.620 And, uh, I got a sliver and then drove off.

00:06:22.860 That was my first experience.

00:06:24.440 I don't know if I was more nervous of embarrassing myself in front of the, the other narcotics officers or, uh, or, or just being scared of being on the corner.

00:06:33.500 Yeah.

00:06:33.700 So what did they say after, when you got back?

00:06:35.940 Oh, you take a ribbon.

00:06:37.280 Yeah.

00:06:37.720 I mean, I, uh, I made so many mistakes on my, uh, uh, my, my first narcotic squad I was on.

00:06:47.200 Um, yeah, they nicknamed me a little bus.

00:06:49.480 Oh, really?

00:06:50.060 Yeah.

00:06:50.580 Little bus.

00:06:51.420 Like the short bus.

00:06:52.360 Yeah.

00:06:52.800 Yeah.

00:06:53.740 That's funny.

00:06:54.400 Uh, I visually graduated to bus man, but, uh, I was like, I was like, man, I messed that up.

00:07:01.740 What, uh, when you say mess up, I mean, I know there's probably a thousand different scenarios,

00:07:06.980 but what, like generally would, would that be like blowing cover or saying something dumb

00:07:12.040 that doesn't sound right?

00:07:13.200 Not for them.

00:07:14.040 No, it was just, it was just learning and making mistakes.

00:07:16.880 You know, they don't know how to, I didn't know how to do a search warrant, stuff like

00:07:19.700 that.

00:07:20.020 Oh, got it.

00:07:20.760 Yeah.

00:07:21.100 More admin stuff, I would think.

00:07:22.660 But, uh, yeah, you just take it.

00:07:25.760 It's a tough crowd.

00:07:26.880 So.

00:07:27.400 Oh yeah.

00:07:27.720 Well, on both sides, on the right side of law enforcement, on the wrong side, it's always

00:07:31.420 a tough crowd.

00:07:32.000 I spent a little time in the military and it's, it's just different.

00:07:35.280 You know, it's dark humor, it's, um, a lot of rough, you know, language, it gets, it's

00:07:41.140 different.

00:07:41.700 It's what you did to survive.

00:07:42.500 I mean, it's kind of, it's that proverbial, uh, uh, story where you hear about the, the

00:07:48.200 coroner coming up and working the scene while he's eating a sandwich and brains are everywhere.

00:07:51.820 Right.

00:07:52.280 Or, cause they just get used to it.

00:07:54.560 Yeah.

00:07:54.880 Or they have a dark sense of humor and they may be cracking a joke.

00:07:58.380 Even law enforcement standing over a dead body.

00:08:00.920 Cause I'm not saying it's right, but it's a lot of coping.

00:08:04.720 It's coping mechanisms.

00:08:06.020 And then, uh, but then they don't realize a family member can hear them and then you're

00:08:09.900 like, Oh man, you spoke a little too loud, went a little too far.

00:08:13.700 Yeah.

00:08:14.000 You gotta be sensitive with that kind of stuff.

00:08:16.800 Yes.

00:08:17.580 Yeah.

00:08:18.340 So you started in, uh, the police department started doing some narcotic stuff, low level

00:08:24.480 stuff.

00:08:24.820 Mostly.

00:08:25.400 How, how did you guys, like, how did you get into, you know, buying drugs and was it just

00:08:31.660 hearing it through the grapevine, having four minutes, like what, how do you even figure

00:08:35.680 that out?

00:08:36.260 At the sheriff's office, it's all of the above.

00:08:38.560 Okay.

00:08:38.840 Yeah.

00:08:39.040 Well, at the FBI too, but, um, you have, we, we would have complaints.

00:08:43.140 Hey man, there's always dealing drugs out here.

00:08:45.580 So street level, we'll go try to work that corner.

00:08:47.840 Right.

00:08:48.100 So, um, so they'll report or, or help themselves out by getting you higher up the chain kind

00:09:03.100 of thing.

00:09:03.580 Was that, uh, was that pretty common?

00:09:05.480 Cause you see in the movies, it's like, there's this, I don't know, I'm going to, I guess I'd

00:09:10.700 ask you, there's this almost false portrayal of, of virtue.

00:09:15.840 And I imagine it's not a real virtuous crowd where they'll give somebody up like that.

00:09:22.320 Uh, so are you saying that in the movies that they give them up too quickly?

00:09:26.740 That's what I'm saying.

00:09:27.700 Uh, actually that's kind of, or no, I know the upper other way, the opposite.

00:09:31.180 Yeah.

00:09:31.560 Yeah.

00:09:31.780 Is that they, they like, but in real life, I imagine it's a little different.

00:09:37.260 It, this is what I say, um, in my experience, uh, you, you're, you're with the people, you're

00:09:44.460 out in the street.

00:09:45.260 I'm never ratting those, my brothers, this, that, and the other.

00:09:47.860 And then when you're in the room by yourself with them, there's no honor among thieves.

00:09:53.540 No way.

00:09:53.940 And I, and I've had some that were just young and I told, I told one guy, I'm like, um,

00:10:00.360 the, the, but the spill that I would give and, uh, my, my peers, my buddies on the squad

00:10:06.380 is like, look, federally, we've picked you up.

00:10:09.520 This is what we've got.

00:10:10.820 Um, we're picking you up first.

00:10:12.760 Um, and you got a chance to get a seat on the bus at the front of the bus.

00:10:18.120 Right.

00:10:18.540 Or you might not get a seat at all.

00:10:20.620 And the, the two things that the judge is really going to look at is acceptance of responsibility

00:10:26.780 and willingness to help.

00:10:28.680 So I said, you can start right now.

00:10:30.560 There was one guy in particular, uh, we kind of, uh, the, the takedown was kind of riding

00:10:35.880 on him flipping.

00:10:37.940 Um, and he didn't, he wouldn't.

00:10:41.720 And I told him, I said, I'm going to chalk this up to you being young in the game.

00:10:46.920 I said, because you never been locked up.

00:10:49.220 I said, but here's what's going to probably happen.

00:10:51.120 I said, in about a month to month and a half from now, you're going to be sitting across

00:10:53.900 the table with your defense attorney.

00:10:55.360 And I'm going to be sitting with the United States, assistant United States attorney, and

00:11:00.140 your attorney is going to tell you how screwed you are and you need to cooperate and start

00:11:04.920 working on a plea deal.

00:11:06.740 And by then it's going to be too late.

00:11:08.380 Right.

00:11:09.040 Um, and he, he didn't bite.

00:11:10.800 And a month and a half later, that was the scenario.

00:11:13.020 Yeah.

00:11:13.320 Yeah.

00:11:13.640 I said, it's too late, man.

00:11:15.520 Do you know how much time he ended up doing to even follow through on stuff like that?

00:11:19.020 Yeah.

00:11:19.320 But there's something you lock up so many people.

00:11:21.020 That's true.

00:11:21.460 Yeah.

00:11:21.560 Uh, I don't know if he got 10.

00:11:23.960 Okay.

00:11:24.320 I know one guy got 10 in there, but yeah.

00:11:26.960 That's such a long, I mean, that is such a long time.

00:11:31.040 It's like, man, if you're going to.

00:11:32.180 And federally, you're going to, you're going to do your time.

00:11:34.240 Yeah.

00:11:34.500 The right.

00:11:34.840 Cause I've heard that if, if it's federal, the likelihood of you serving a longer portion

00:11:39.920 of your sentence is much greater than state at the state level.

00:11:43.480 Much more consistent in the federal system as well.

00:11:46.080 So, um, yeah, state systems, my experience being at the state and local level and then

00:11:53.680 being an agent working with task forces in state and local levels for the rest of my

00:11:59.120 career, you just see, uh, states are just inconsistent.

00:12:02.720 Right.

00:12:03.080 Really inconsistent.

00:12:04.340 Yeah.

00:12:04.720 Like they'll get, uh, for example, we had a guy, it was a major drug dealer in Greenville,

00:12:11.380 South Carolina.

00:12:12.100 We took him down.

00:12:13.220 We had like probably six distributions, six distributions, one and a half mile up a school.

00:12:18.720 Oh yeah.

00:12:19.160 Traffic in charge.

00:12:19.860 You do all this stuff.

00:12:20.660 And he was a big dealer and without even telling me, um, the assistant solicitor cut a deal

00:12:29.040 without even at the state level.

00:12:31.360 Yeah.

00:12:31.640 Without even asking me, gave the guy like five months probation.

00:12:34.940 And I'm like, what the, I'm like this dude, we've spent a lot of time.

00:12:38.120 And of course he goes right back to dealing.

00:12:39.980 So we go back and make more buys and take him back off.

00:12:43.360 And then you go to another one where I made two or three buys, uh, on a corner from a crack

00:12:52.180 hit.

00:12:52.400 I mean, the, the one you got somebody usually, at least where it was, where we were at, somebody's

00:12:57.100 running the corner.

00:12:57.880 Right.

00:12:58.740 And then you've got people that are users.

00:13:00.500 So maybe like every five crack rocks they sell, they can pinch one, you know, something

00:13:04.160 like that.

00:13:04.900 And this guy, uh, I mean, he was an older guy, drug addict.

00:13:09.100 I bought from him twice and we were going to trial.

00:13:12.880 And I'm like, why are we going to trial for this guy?

00:13:15.480 Yeah.

00:13:15.920 And, and, uh, the assistant solicitor, she was younger and she was like, well, he didn't

00:13:19.840 take the plea deal.

00:13:20.600 I said, well, what'd you offer him?

00:13:21.520 She said like 17 or 18 years.

00:13:23.140 I said, good gravy, man.

00:13:24.280 I wouldn't take that either.

00:13:25.760 That's not much of a deal.

00:13:27.880 Yeah.

00:13:28.280 You can take 17 or you could get 25.

00:13:30.740 Right.

00:13:32.180 And if he's older anyway, I'm going to be dead anyways.

00:13:35.700 So we went to trial and, uh, and I told her, I'm like, dude, I said, I appreciate your

00:13:40.240 intestinal fortitude, but I use the other example.

00:13:42.400 I'm like, this would be great to use on that.

00:13:45.000 On that guy.

00:13:45.860 Yeah.

00:13:46.100 This guy's like, you know, he's a crackhead, but he already had two priors.

00:13:49.340 We went to trial.

00:13:50.480 He lost.

00:13:51.080 He got 25 years.

00:13:52.040 Did he really?

00:13:52.740 Yeah.

00:13:53.480 Jeez.

00:13:53.800 I was like, that's wild.

00:13:56.500 But, you know, uh, I would say he could have plead or pled.

00:14:00.620 He could have, he could have done a plea deal, pled out, but it was, you know, he was

00:14:03.860 like through that.

00:14:04.800 Still.

00:14:04.920 Yeah.

00:14:05.860 Did, um, was there any moments when you were working narcotics primarily, like this

00:14:12.160 low level stuff you're talking about where you were had, or they knew like some was up

00:14:17.140 or, or are they just dumb at the low level stuff?

00:14:20.760 And just.

00:14:20.900 No, uh, actually, if you ask a lot of, uh, narcotics officers and undercovers, the opinion

00:14:27.680 is, uh, pretty much the same is that it's more, uh, I'm in more danger buying that $20

00:14:33.660 crack rock than I am deep undercover.

00:14:35.580 I mean, there's always a propensity for violence, but you roll up on the corner and somebody's

00:14:40.120 drugged up and they shoot you for 20 bucks.

00:14:42.900 Yeah.

00:14:43.460 Just, I imagine it's, um, when you start to get the higher echelons of criminal activity,

00:14:48.080 they, they wise up.

00:14:49.740 It's kind of like in the, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems like in the forest,

00:14:53.560 you know, the big bucks are, are the smart ones, right?

00:14:57.960 Like you don't see dumb big bucks out there.

00:15:02.000 And I, is that true?

00:15:03.040 I'm here for a reason.

00:15:03.720 Right.

00:15:04.040 Is that true?

00:15:04.640 Yeah, that's a good, I mean, I don't know if it's true for everybody that I've been a

00:15:10.260 part of going after, but, uh, it is something that I've said undercover many, many times.

00:15:15.280 I'm like, look, I'm where I'm at for a reason.

00:15:17.520 Yeah.

00:15:17.860 You know, it's because I haven't made a bunch of mistakes, you know?

00:15:21.460 Uh, so tell me what the hell we're planning.

00:15:23.620 Right.

00:15:24.840 Um, but yeah, state and local, um, generally we're hitting quick buys and search warrants.

00:15:32.460 Um, I'm trying to think if I did anything like super deep, maybe a couple of months.

00:15:39.080 Really?

00:15:39.640 Yeah.

00:15:40.540 How's that?

00:15:41.260 Even just transitioning into deep undercover where it's, it's a continual is what would

00:15:48.680 you like a character that you play or how, how would you describe it?

00:15:51.240 It's tough because I mean, like, okay, you're working for Greenville County Sheriff's Office.

00:15:56.860 How, how many ways can you shave your facial hair?

00:16:00.180 I figured.

00:16:00.840 Cut your hair, right?

00:16:02.600 Change cars, change clothes before.

00:16:04.760 I mean, cause you're also going to the local court system cause you're locking people up.

00:16:08.200 So, so at some point, I mean, everybody's going to know, you would think, I mean, unless you're

00:16:12.980 in some huge metropolitan, but still, I mean, you're, you're hanging in that same.

00:16:16.600 Yeah.

00:16:17.260 And you're not a guy who's can really like hide out anywhere just based on your size and

00:16:21.880 presence.

00:16:22.600 I imagine that's kind of a somewhat memorable.

00:16:25.420 Yeah, exactly.

00:16:27.000 Uh, yeah.

00:16:28.060 So, uh, it, it does get tough.

00:16:31.300 Um, man, and that kind of, it makes me think of when I'm, I remember getting certified in

00:16:37.540 South Carolina and then, uh, as I explained, it's like, man, how many more ways can I change

00:16:43.360 clothes and do this, that, and the other.

00:16:45.480 And we all went to Columbia, South Carolina to the South Carolina criminal justice Academy

00:16:50.800 to get certified.

00:16:52.720 And I remember thinking, man, wouldn't it be cool if they hadn't, I mean, this is mid nineties,

00:16:55.960 but it's like, wouldn't it be cool if they had that in like all in a database and then

00:17:00.620 you had everybody's skillset just for the state and maybe Charleston County.

00:17:05.700 Right.

00:17:06.160 Need somebody who's like a biker dude to come in and hang out at a bar.

00:17:09.500 And, and I thought that'd be awesome.

00:17:11.200 But when I got in the FBI, that's kind of what it is.

00:17:13.580 I mean, you're, you're worldwide and you're in a, you're in the system and I mean, you can

00:17:19.460 travel, like I said, around the world to do another cover if it's needed.

00:17:23.580 Yeah.

00:17:24.320 Yeah.

00:17:24.680 I imagine there's probably a look and a persona that it's like, okay, for this particular

00:17:28.320 case or this thing we're going after, we need this guy.

00:17:30.960 And for this, we need this guy.

00:17:32.380 Um, yeah.

00:17:33.700 Uh, it helps to mirror who you're kind of going after, but it depends on what you're trying

00:17:38.560 to do too.

00:17:39.320 Right.

00:17:39.540 I mean, if it's a, if it's a group of radical, uh, radical Islamists, well, I'm not going

00:17:46.980 to, how's that going to work?

00:17:48.120 Yeah.

00:17:48.280 But maybe I'm a truck driver and I'm bringing them their stuff, something like that.

00:17:52.400 You know what I mean?

00:17:53.180 Yeah.

00:17:53.580 Just, uh, there's, there's more than one, how do they say?

00:17:58.100 Cliche.

00:17:58.540 There's more than one way to skin a cat.

00:17:59.940 Right.

00:18:00.100 You spend a bunch of time with neo-Nazis though, too, undercover, deep undercover, right?

00:18:05.120 Yeah.

00:18:05.440 Yeah.

00:18:06.120 What, like, what was that like?

00:18:07.680 How did you get into it?

00:18:09.040 How'd you infiltrate the group?

00:18:10.480 What was that like?

00:18:11.200 Uh, it's a case by case basis.

00:18:13.040 Um, some, you may be introduced by a source.

00:18:16.060 Some, you may try to go in cold.

00:18:18.560 Um, some of them, I mean, are recruiting, openly recruiting.

00:18:22.820 So I just answered the call.

00:18:24.360 Right.

00:18:24.720 You know?

00:18:25.660 That's interesting.

00:18:26.500 Have you done that?

00:18:27.320 Yeah.

00:18:27.420 Have you showed up to recruit calls?

00:18:29.220 Answered an email.

00:18:30.140 Answered an email.

00:18:31.000 I mean, the, the clan, they had a, they had a clan hotline.

00:18:35.980 Yeah.

00:18:36.280 That's what they called it.

00:18:37.000 Really?

00:18:37.300 Yeah.

00:18:37.660 I called it.

00:18:38.780 And then you just show up to a meeting at somebody's place and.

00:18:41.360 Well, I call and, you know, 45 minute conversation.

00:18:44.680 Uh, and by the end of the conversation, we figured out that I'm going to be playing music

00:18:49.800 for the, for the spring rally.

00:18:51.880 Oh, really?

00:18:52.380 Because the band fell through.

00:18:54.160 So that's how you got in.

00:18:55.900 Yeah.

00:18:56.420 By playing music.

00:18:57.320 Yeah.

00:18:57.740 I, uh, that was a great way to ingratiate.

00:19:00.760 Sure.

00:19:01.380 Um, but yeah, there's all kinds of different ways.

00:19:05.260 Um, but especially like in the Bureau, uh, hopefully you've got a lot of intelligence going

00:19:11.940 into a case because that case team's probably been working that case.

00:19:15.460 I could be working it for a year or more, uh, um, learning, you know, um, like, uh, character

00:19:21.760 traits and stuff like that.

00:19:23.000 Right.

00:19:23.560 Um, to set you up for success, not failure.

00:19:26.720 Yeah.

00:19:27.340 Well, and you're playing high stakes games too.

00:19:30.220 A mess up is pretty serious.

00:19:32.960 Yeah.

00:19:33.480 And I, so the training I got and then, and we would teach is, you know, if you're, if

00:19:39.640 you're going in to do an undercover and you're expecting that there's three SWAT teams on

00:19:44.540 the other side of that door and they're there to save you and that's, that's your safety

00:19:49.400 net, you probably, I wouldn't probably wouldn't be going in because if the crap's going to

00:19:55.180 hit the fan, I can show you multiple videos on the tactics side where it's an adjoining

00:20:01.400 door to two hotel rooms, bad guy walks in, shoots eight shots before they can even get

00:20:06.860 the door open.

00:20:07.860 So, um, generally speaking, you need to be prepared for that.

00:20:14.860 Yeah.

00:20:15.300 It'd be hard to prepare for, but that's the life I guess that you signed up for too.

00:20:19.220 And like you said, I mean, some of it's, it can be super dangerous.

00:20:22.940 Um, somebody might look at it and go, Holy crap.

00:20:25.460 Uh, I mean, you're in the middle of a field in the middle of Alabama, um, gated, uh, basically.

00:20:32.680 Uh, and there's 30 plus people there and everybody's got guns and you're the only undercover.

00:20:39.680 Yeah.

00:20:40.620 That's a little intimidating.

00:20:42.520 Oh my God.

00:20:43.540 If something goes South, you know, what were you, what, what were you, uh, interested with

00:20:48.300 the, um, with let's talk about the neo-Nazi specifically.

00:20:51.240 Was that, was that drug use?

00:20:53.640 Was that, uh, like, uh, uh, violence, you know, is it?

00:20:58.460 It would have been violence, um, spewing a lot of, uh, um, radical stuff.

00:21:03.660 Um, and, and it would be, let me say it this way.

00:21:08.900 We don't just go willy nilly and open a case on anybody.

00:21:11.620 Sure.

00:21:11.940 You gotta have some predication.

00:21:13.200 It's got to go through legal approval, um, uh, within our office and stuff.

00:21:18.640 And some of them have to be approved at a headquarters level.

00:21:21.640 Um, but, uh, the, the neo, you asked me the neo-Nazi.

00:21:28.160 Right.

00:21:28.500 Yeah.

00:21:29.220 Um, so there's different groups.

00:21:35.380 I've been in several, um, like some, I go in and, uh, they opened the case because they

00:21:41.000 were putting all kinds of crazy stuff online.

00:21:42.740 Or maybe you've got sources reporting, Hey, they're planning on doing something bad.

00:21:47.220 Right.

00:21:47.360 I mean that, cause that's, I, as much as you hate, you don't hate to say it, but as much

00:21:51.360 as it's, it is what it is, is you can hate people.

00:21:54.200 Like that's, that's a right that we have.

00:21:56.820 And you can say things about people too, up to a point.

00:22:00.720 Up to a point.

00:22:01.260 So I was always, it's interesting to me to say, okay, well, what, where's the line that

00:22:05.260 they crossed?

00:22:06.300 And I guess it would be call for violence.

00:22:08.740 Yes.

00:22:09.440 Drug activity, that little sorts of things.

00:22:11.000 Something like that.

00:22:11.560 Uh, because I, so I, I've done interviews with people who aren't from the United States

00:22:16.000 and I had to explain to them.

00:22:17.240 I'm going to look, we have a constitution.

00:22:19.060 Right.

00:22:19.780 And you've got first amendment freedom of speech and you can walk out in the street

00:22:24.140 and say, I hate all, any racial slur you want.

00:22:27.120 Right.

00:22:27.560 I hope all, any racial slur die.

00:22:30.720 That's first amendment speech protected.

00:22:32.780 Um, I mean, you see people are burning an American flag.

00:22:35.600 I'm sure that wouldn't go over well in China if you burned a China flag or Singapore or somewhere

00:22:41.040 else, you know?

00:22:41.740 Yeah.

00:22:42.220 Uh, let me know how that works out for you.

00:22:43.860 Right.

00:22:45.220 Death to China.

00:22:46.200 Yeah, exactly.

00:22:46.940 Wait a minute.

00:22:47.660 Yeah.

00:22:48.020 See how that goes.

00:22:48.820 We'll see how long you'd last there.

00:22:50.780 I was totally kidding.

00:22:53.240 I was on a bender.

00:22:54.520 I don't even know what I was talking about.

00:22:56.240 Um, but you can do that in the United States and we can't investigate you specifically for

00:23:03.000 that, but you get in there and sometimes, I mean, I was in a group for like five months.

00:23:08.680 Um, I probably met them once face to face, but online.

00:23:13.160 Oh my gosh.

00:23:14.100 They were just, I mean, it was post after post after post.

00:23:17.040 I would go to sleep for six, seven hours, wake up and I'd be over a thousand posts behind

00:23:21.960 of them calling for violence.

00:23:23.760 Just spewing whatever.

00:23:25.440 Just nonsense.

00:23:26.260 I mean, just nonsense.

00:23:27.300 Crazy stuff.

00:23:27.880 Anti-Semitic, you know, just all kinds of stuff.

00:23:31.220 Or maybe there's been a mass shooting and maybe, uh, they're, they're either praising

00:23:37.200 the person, um, because they killed so many or they're blasting them because they only got

00:23:44.140 one shot off and then their gun malfunctioned.

00:23:46.720 And they got shot or something and they didn't have the skillset.

00:23:49.320 Right.

00:23:49.660 You should have trained more.

00:23:51.720 Um, but like that case in particular, we just ended it.

00:23:55.220 I mean, there was nothing to lock anybody up on and the case team was kind of non committed.

00:24:01.640 Yeah.

00:24:02.460 So you just let that one go.

00:24:03.720 But the, the main one that's in the book is a group called the base and the base was

00:24:09.600 openly recruiting.

00:24:12.420 Um, they were posting on gab, which is in telegram.

00:24:16.260 There's these, uh, applications, you know, that you can go to and I don't want to say that

00:24:21.220 everybody on those is doing nefarious stuff, but.

00:24:24.060 Well, they're, they're more closed systems and there's not, I, I, if I understand correctly,

00:24:28.220 they don't record or store as much of the information or something.

00:24:31.500 Or they say it's encrypted or, or they are, you know, this is encrypted talk or, uh, and

00:24:38.240 or they are based overseas.

00:24:40.860 And so somebody here thinks, well, the feds can't get subpoenas over there and get that,

00:24:45.240 get that information.

00:24:46.220 Right.

00:24:46.680 And sometimes they're right.

00:24:47.920 Yeah.

00:24:48.060 You know?

00:24:49.940 So maybe you do an undercover.

00:24:51.860 Right.

00:24:52.360 Um, but yeah, so they were openly recruiting.

00:24:55.300 And I mean, like, like I said, I don't want to say it was all nefarious activity, but people

00:25:00.400 who want to do some bad stuff do go on there.

00:25:03.960 I mean, you've got a group called whites only.

00:25:06.480 I wonder who's going to be in there.

00:25:08.020 Right.

00:25:08.140 Exactly.

00:25:08.960 There's a chance we could see some swastikas.

00:25:10.860 Yeah.

00:25:11.440 Yeah.

00:25:12.280 Uh, 14 words, which is, uh, very, very popular in the white supremacy culture.

00:25:17.980 14 words.

00:25:18.680 What is that?

00:25:19.140 It's a, it was coined by David Lane, a white supremacist.

00:25:22.260 I don't have it memorized anymore because I don't infiltrate white supremacists anymore,

00:25:27.080 but it's, uh, something to the effect of we must secure, uh, we must secure the future

00:25:33.680 and the existence of the white race kind of thing.

00:25:35.880 Oh, okay.

00:25:36.460 So, but if you kind of like a motto or a credo or something, yeah, it's 14 words.

00:25:40.420 So anytime you see that, like you see 14 slash 88.

00:25:46.120 So 14 refers to the 14 words, right?

00:25:49.340 88 is the, uh, eighth letter, eighth letter of the alphabet is H, H, H, Heil Hitler.

00:25:55.140 Oh, oh, got it.

00:25:56.440 Okay.

00:25:56.840 I mean, there's all kinds of, even the biker world does stuff like that, you know?

00:25:59.760 Yeah.

00:26:00.160 Hell's angel, 81, H, A, you know?

00:26:03.860 Yeah.

00:26:04.080 That kind of thing.

00:26:04.900 Oh, that's interesting.

00:26:06.320 So yeah, you'd go in and like with the base, for example, are they still operating?

00:26:09.720 They, they, I just saw an article, um, posted by the guardian, um, and it looks like the

00:26:17.340 leader, Renaldo Nazaro is trying to boost it back up, but he, he took a beating, uh, within

00:26:23.500 the community.

00:26:24.400 Oh, wow.

00:26:25.300 That's community.

00:26:26.000 Like I'm talking.

00:26:26.660 Yeah.

00:26:26.800 Like it's like a, like a, like a virtuous, you know, high end, you know, in the world of

00:26:33.920 hate, right.

00:26:34.660 He's trying to, uh, wait, cause the base got infiltrated and, and he kind of got mocked

00:26:41.140 a lot, uh, uh, for slipping out.

00:26:44.200 Yeah.

00:26:44.480 By other groups, but that's what they do.

00:26:46.060 I mean, they, there may be people that see this and be posting, you know, Oh, he's a fed

00:26:51.400 and he's whatever, you know, there's always going to be stuff like that, but, uh, pretty

00:26:56.120 much they went defunct.

00:26:57.360 Right.

00:26:57.760 Cause we took down, even if we didn't arrest everybody that was in the group, you scare

00:27:03.440 them away kind of, or they at least change their moniker and go to another group and

00:27:07.000 say, we're done with this.

00:27:08.180 Right.

00:27:08.640 Or, or there are those that are in there that still have the hate in their heart, but they

00:27:14.380 were not planning on killing people and they were like, this is going too far.

00:27:18.640 Yeah.

00:27:19.020 Interesting.

00:27:19.620 I'm in, I'm building my kit.

00:27:21.880 I'm ready for the D day.

00:27:23.300 I'm ready for the race war.

00:27:24.520 I'm ready for the collapse of society.

00:27:26.180 I'm not going to do anything, but when it happens, I'm ready.

00:27:30.260 Right.

00:27:30.580 Sort of thing, you know, when that, when it's officially purge rules, you know, there's

00:27:35.460 a lot, I've, I've even heard people just conservatives who I think are generally good people, you know,

00:27:40.940 that you'll hear something about, I don't know, civil war, for example, like you tell

00:27:45.200 me when we're going, we're going.

00:27:46.460 And I'm like, if you were really serious, you would go, you're not waiting for other

00:27:50.180 people to do stuff.

00:27:51.140 Yeah.

00:27:51.480 I'm ready.

00:27:52.200 Not that I'm advocating for it by any means.

00:27:54.020 I love, I love the doomsday prepper stuff.

00:27:56.440 Cause I just, my, my brain and I'm, I've got friends that, you know, they've got like

00:28:00.820 two underground condos or water systems and we can last for six months to a year.

00:28:08.820 I'm like, I don't want to, I don't want to tell me where it's going to hit, give me a

00:28:16.360 rough timeframe.

00:28:17.660 So I'll know whether I've got enough time to smoke a brisket or just throw some chicken

00:28:21.580 on there real quick, have a couple of drinks and then let it go.

00:28:25.680 Uh, I've joked with like, even my family members are like, Oh, I'm prepared.

00:28:29.320 I'm doing that.

00:28:29.800 I'm like, what are you going to do when you run out of medicine?

00:28:33.000 Right.

00:28:33.500 Right.

00:28:34.400 Exactly.

00:28:34.880 And they're like, and I'm like, there's only so many pharmacies you can rob.

00:28:39.300 And then they're all, they're all will already be robbed.

00:28:41.640 Yeah.

00:28:42.040 Already robbed.

00:28:42.600 Yeah.

00:28:42.860 And if you think like a bad person, you see all these people stop, please stock up all

00:28:48.120 your food, stock up all your weapons.

00:28:49.780 Take your stuff.

00:28:50.520 Exactly.

00:28:51.100 I mean, it's all right there for me.

00:28:53.460 Yeah.

00:28:53.540 I mean, I appreciate you setting it up.

00:28:55.760 Appreciate you.

00:28:56.800 Do you feel like when you said thinking like a bad guy, do you feel like there was ever

00:29:00.160 time where the lines between your real life and your undercover life or work you happen

00:29:07.640 to be doing started to blur or you started to have it impact you in a negative way personally?

00:29:15.260 Well, there's a lot of answers in that question.

00:29:17.720 Different ways I can go.

00:29:21.260 For me, when I was doing undercover, I was always pretty close to who I really am.

00:29:27.300 Cause the way I was taught and the way I teach is if you are pretending to be something that's

00:29:31.440 completely opposite of what you are for a long period of time, usually one or two things

00:29:36.260 is going to happen.

00:29:36.900 You're either going to slip up and get caught or you're going to become it.

00:29:40.340 And neither one of those are good.

00:29:41.780 Yeah.

00:29:42.900 So, uh, crossing the line.

00:29:46.160 No.

00:29:46.620 I mean, the line's blurred.

00:29:48.500 Am I really a bad guy?

00:29:50.140 No, but I'm human.

00:29:52.720 Right.

00:29:53.160 And even with all the training in the world, you find yourself in there.

00:29:56.240 Sometimes you're really bonding with people and, and, uh, um, you generally feel sorry,

00:30:03.820 you know, or you feel bad cause you're going to be betraying these.

00:30:06.900 You have some like new level of empathy for, for bad people essentially.

00:30:10.460 And I, I guess I'm not big on dehumanizing people.

00:30:13.240 I didn't realize it until I was doing the book.

00:30:15.720 Um, I mean, I, I never termed, I never heard it termed that way.

00:30:19.160 You coined that way.

00:30:20.200 And it was my literary agents cause they're like somebody like my co-writer would be writing

00:30:23.980 like, Hey, and then these idiots and blah, blah, blah.

00:30:26.660 You're like, hold on.

00:30:27.520 Yeah.

00:30:27.720 We don't need to call them idiots.

00:30:29.120 And they're like, well, I got like, I just, number one, let's go from our, let's go from

00:30:33.740 the writer's world.

00:30:34.560 Does this really help sell the book?

00:30:35.740 Right.

00:30:37.240 And I'm not, number one, I don't want to make them angry to come after, you know what

00:30:41.960 I mean?

00:30:42.180 Yeah.

00:30:42.480 Uh, but there's still some, there's still a person, um, other than pedophiles generally

00:30:50.760 in my career, if I would arrest somebody, I'd sit them down and I'd say, listen, I'm

00:30:55.120 not saying you're a bad person.

00:30:56.500 I'm not saying I disagree with what you did.

00:30:58.660 I'm saying you're an adult and you chose, you made the choice to break the law and you

00:31:02.820 got caught.

00:31:03.480 So let's just start right here.

00:31:05.240 Let's don't do the whole dating game where you lie to me for two months and I lied to you

00:31:09.160 for two months.

00:31:09.940 And then I'm like, I kind of like you.

00:31:11.360 And you're like, I kind of like you too.

00:31:12.760 And then we tell each other the truth.

00:31:14.220 Let's just be truthful from the start.

00:31:16.340 But, um, as far as losing myself, no, I wouldn't say that.

00:31:24.380 But when there are times where I was getting a lot more aggressive because I'm hanging around

00:31:28.640 1% of bikers and we like to fight.

00:31:32.820 Yeah.

00:31:33.440 Right.

00:31:33.780 Do I have, I want to say I had less control, but I had less rules.

00:31:41.360 I mean, technically I had all kinds of rules, right?

00:31:44.120 Sure.

00:31:44.580 But you're hanging out with people.

00:31:45.220 But in the world.

00:31:45.820 Yeah.

00:31:46.040 You're hanging out with people that there's really no rules.

00:31:48.040 You just fight.

00:31:48.580 I mean, we could smash that dude right now.

00:31:50.860 So when I come home and somebody bumps into me at a bar or start some, yeah, yeah.

00:31:57.780 Yeah.

00:31:57.980 You can start slipping like that, but that's in law enforcement in general.

00:32:01.800 Uh, I mean, a lot of people don't know cause they, they haven't walked, not even a mile.

00:32:06.940 They haven't walked two steps in the shoes of a law enforcement officer.

00:32:10.120 I'm like, do you know how often uniform patrol shows up and everybody's excited they're there?

00:32:15.580 Never.

00:32:16.100 I said, it's very rare.

00:32:17.400 Right.

00:32:17.940 At least in my experience.

00:32:19.200 And she's like, get out of my house.

00:32:20.780 That's why people like firefighters more than you like police officers.

00:32:23.940 But now they're getting attacked.

00:32:25.180 Yeah, I know.

00:32:26.020 I'm an alert instructor.

00:32:27.120 It's a, it's the, it's the national standard for training law enforcement, uh, and active

00:32:31.920 shooter response.

00:32:32.760 And there's an integrated school we do and we do it with fire and medic, um, and run big

00:32:39.000 scenarios on like, say it's like a pulse nightclub reenactment or, or Virginia tech.

00:32:46.120 And now we've got to get those people to a higher level of medical care and you've got

00:32:50.820 rested.

00:32:51.160 So we all were together, but they're all showing up in vest.

00:32:53.280 I mean, they're kitted up and I'm like, are you guys with the, yeah, man, we get shot at.

00:32:56.940 I'm like, people are rusing you.

00:32:58.800 I mean, it's, it's out there, but people are rusing, you know, lying to get them there

00:33:03.160 and ambush them.

00:33:04.060 And I'm like, what the hell is wrong with you?

00:33:05.640 Yeah.

00:33:06.300 I mean, that's like, you know, well, what are you going to do when there's a real fire?

00:33:09.320 Right.

00:33:09.540 And now you really need help.

00:33:11.060 Let's go look at the, uh, yeah, the, uh, the Kyle Rittenhouse thing.

00:33:16.440 Terrible situation.

00:33:17.680 Do I think, uh, the kid should have been down there with a gun?

00:33:20.160 Probably not.

00:33:20.680 No, of course not.

00:33:21.480 Yeah.

00:33:21.900 But was it a deadly force situation?

00:33:24.580 Did he take a brick to the, and then they're swinging us.

00:33:27.080 Gave bored at him.

00:33:27.940 And, but what's the first thing, the guy who's one of the guys attacking him when he

00:33:31.360 sees his bicep blown off, he's there to defund the police, setting stuff on fire.

00:33:37.600 I hate gut, whatever.

00:33:39.100 First thing he gets, yeah.

00:33:41.100 Somebody call the police.

00:33:42.680 I'm like, really?

00:33:43.640 Nah, we're good.

00:33:44.520 Now?

00:33:45.980 I heard about this, uh.

00:33:47.480 It just got real.

00:33:48.620 Yeah.

00:33:48.980 I don't have a bicep anymore.

00:33:50.080 Right.

00:33:51.040 This changes my opinion a little bit.

00:33:52.940 I completely regret the decision I just made.

00:33:56.220 I heard about, uh, something that was happening, happening more and more recently.

00:34:00.340 I think they call it swatting.

00:34:02.480 Yes.

00:34:03.200 Where, if I, so tell me if I understand this correctly.

00:34:06.080 Let's say I have a, uh, political difference with, with a neighbor.

00:34:09.260 And then I would call that neighbor in and report that that place is engaged in illegal

00:34:15.580 behavior, hoping that swat would come in with, with the anticipation of creating an incident

00:34:20.620 or something.

00:34:21.560 Um, a little bit, a little bit more involved in that, especially now because they're spoofing

00:34:26.360 phone numbers and stuff like that.

00:34:27.840 A lot of the ones that I saw in the beginning were like gaming.

00:34:30.720 So they're, they're playing audio of gunfire and stuff.

00:34:35.900 So that, so responding cops think there's actually a shooting going on.

00:34:42.080 That's the swatting stuff.

00:34:43.520 Okay.

00:34:43.680 Yeah.

00:34:44.040 Um, spoofing numbers and now I need help that somebody's in here.

00:34:47.020 They got me.

00:34:47.540 They kidnapped me.

00:34:48.240 No, that kind of thing.

00:34:49.700 And then the SWAT team shows up.

00:34:51.460 That's, that is wild.

00:34:53.220 I know.

00:34:53.880 Cause not only do, do you guys as law enforcement have to worry about the situation.

00:34:58.240 Now you have to worry about, is this actually a situation?

00:35:02.060 Yeah.

00:35:02.300 It's no longer.

00:35:03.220 Yeah.

00:35:03.440 It's a situation.

00:35:04.020 We're going to deal with it.

00:35:04.540 It's, we don't even know if it's real or not.

00:35:06.900 For most of the part that I've seen, uh, before I retired and even now, cause I'm still involved

00:35:12.240 in the struggling and stuff like that.

00:35:13.520 But, uh, most are just going to call outs, man.

00:35:16.280 I mean, it's just the whole, the days of smashing a door and going in.

00:35:20.580 I mean, it still happens.

00:35:21.800 Right.

00:35:22.120 But from what I've seen, uh, you're, you're more experienced, higher trained.

00:35:28.040 They're surrounded and called.

00:35:29.200 They're ready.

00:35:30.060 Right.

00:35:30.400 They can.

00:35:31.180 Yeah.

00:35:31.280 They can gas and everything, but it's, it's a lot safer.

00:35:34.540 Well, and not to mention just the, the public scrutiny over the past handful of years with,

00:35:39.620 oh gosh, what's that one woman who got shot on a, um, exercising a search warrant or something.

00:35:46.540 I can't remember the exact details.

00:35:48.480 Yeah.

00:35:49.000 Uh, it was, it was North Carolina.

00:35:50.700 Yeah.

00:35:51.020 I can't remember her name anyways.

00:35:52.660 Yeah.

00:35:53.180 Stuff like that where.

00:35:54.600 Brianna.

00:35:55.200 Brianna.

00:35:55.600 Yeah.

00:35:56.900 Yeah.

00:35:57.500 Where, you know, it's good.

00:35:58.520 Your, your actions are a lot more scrutinized and then you've got video cameras on everything.

00:36:03.800 People have video professional video cameras in their pockets at all times.

00:36:07.940 It's pretty rough, man.

00:36:09.140 But I also see police officers who like, I watched a video the other day.

00:36:12.640 The officer completely lost his cool.

00:36:16.280 Didn't do anything other than, you know, just yell at the guy and he was completely unprofessional.

00:36:21.720 But I'm like, dude, I actually can't blame him.

00:36:24.660 Like I imagine he's feeling that way.

00:36:27.200 He's like, I'm 14 months from retirement.

00:36:29.020 I hate this.

00:36:29.740 And I ate that.

00:36:30.420 I'm like, yeah.

00:36:31.940 Yeah.

00:36:32.140 20 years, I imagine you would be a little irritated to put it mildly.

00:36:36.880 And, and to go back what you were asking about when we were talking about earlier, uh, you

00:36:42.880 can start getting a skewed vision just because you're doing, I mean, the training is there.

00:36:49.520 Um, but again, human nature, people are, people are human.

00:36:53.200 You get spit at, cussed at, disrespected eight hours plus a day.

00:36:57.720 Um, and then, and then, and then you get off of work and you get to the point to where at

00:37:04.540 least I've seen it and I did it myself, but you start looking at somebody that's a piece of

00:37:08.980 trash.

00:37:09.360 That's a piece of trash.

00:37:10.320 Now you're off duty technically, uh, but you're not in uniform and you see somebody that kind

00:37:16.720 of resembles that.

00:37:17.800 Now you're saying that's a piece of trash and you carry your work home with you.

00:37:21.240 Um, how could you not?

00:37:22.480 It could destroy the family, can do all kinds of stuff.

00:37:24.580 And, uh, uh, usually, um, when I teach or speak, one of the, one of the last things I'll

00:37:30.800 say is I'm like, look, man, uh, first responders, uh, law enforcement, medic, fire, um, military.

00:37:38.680 We're number one.

00:37:39.900 We're number one in suicide.

00:37:42.500 Cops are killing themselves right and left.

00:37:44.480 Yeah.

00:37:44.840 Right and left.

00:37:45.780 Uh, number one in suicide, number one in divorce.

00:37:49.260 We're number one in alcoholism.

00:37:51.220 You can throw pills and other stuff in there now.

00:37:53.000 Um, and we're also number one to die within five years after retiring.

00:37:57.860 Is that right?

00:37:58.640 Yeah.

00:38:00.200 Gentlemen, let me just take a quick break.

00:38:01.740 Um, last night I was scrolling through, uh, social media and it dawned on me that not

00:38:06.700 only is social media a time suck generally, but the overwhelming majority of what pops up

00:38:13.400 on my feed is not all that interesting or relevant to me.

00:38:18.460 And that got me thinking about our social media feed in our exclusive brotherhood, the

00:38:22.580 iron council.

00:38:23.400 Now I say social media loosely because we don't actually use social media.

00:38:27.600 Uh, we use a closed platform only available to our members.

00:38:31.220 And the best part about that feed is that you get to curate it from over 50 channels on

00:38:35.860 fatherhood, uh, entrepreneurship, overcoming pornography, sobriety, uh, divorce and separation,

00:38:42.800 fitness, nutrition, podcasting, uh, and so much more.

00:38:46.520 Now I've explained the benefits of the iron council ad nauseum.

00:38:49.520 So I think it's time you band with us at order of man.com slash iron council.

00:38:53.980 And if you find it's not for you after doing so, let me know, and I'll give you your money

00:38:58.140 back and wish you well on your journey.

00:39:00.160 Gentlemen, we close tonight at midnight Eastern tonight at midnight Eastern.

00:39:04.640 So do it now again, order of man.com slash iron council.

00:39:09.060 All right, guys back to it with Scott.

00:39:11.980 Yeah, I bet, uh, you lose a lot of your identity.

00:39:14.340 You know, you're doing something for decades of your life and all of a sudden, you don't,

00:39:17.420 you're not doing that anymore.

00:39:18.360 Or you don't realize the pressure cooker you're in every day and what is the toll is

00:39:22.580 taken on you.

00:39:23.440 Right.

00:39:23.980 Until it's over.

00:39:25.180 And then it's too late.

00:39:26.100 And then it's just too much at that point.

00:39:27.840 Yeah.

00:39:28.680 Yeah.

00:39:29.080 That's wild.

00:39:30.020 When you were talking about, um, running around with one percenters or these neo-Nazis,

00:39:34.320 um, I, I, I hope this is a fair question.

00:39:38.280 I want to ask, but were you engaged in a legal activity personally in order to be part of

00:39:46.340 the group?

00:39:46.860 Hmm.

00:39:47.420 Yeah.

00:39:48.260 Uh, the, the, the argument's always trade craft.

00:39:52.980 We, we, uh, I don't want to give away trade craft because there's still people doing undercover

00:39:57.600 work.

00:39:57.880 Sure.

00:39:58.280 Yeah.

00:39:58.660 Um, and I know what that feels like to be undercover and have the bad bill tell you to

00:40:04.140 read a book about a former undercover federal agent.

00:40:08.440 And I'm like, all right.

00:40:09.500 So I'm reading it and I'm going, holy crap.

00:40:11.540 There's a lot of stuff in here that we can't, I mean, you're letting everybody know what we

00:40:14.740 can't do.

00:40:15.620 Right.

00:40:16.360 Um, so.

00:40:18.120 Oh, so they know the rules.

00:40:20.140 And if they don't believe you, right.

00:40:21.740 Yeah.

00:40:21.960 They don't trust you or your, your backstory is not believable or good.

00:40:26.180 They can, they can test you.

00:40:27.360 Right.

00:40:27.620 You're going to be scrutinized probably anyway.

00:40:29.160 Right.

00:40:29.600 Sure.

00:40:30.160 If, I mean, if they're worth their salt, you know.

00:40:32.720 Yeah.

00:40:33.060 I love the ones you get, the ones that are like, now I've been in prison and I know the

00:40:39.080 legal mumbo jumbo.

00:40:40.400 If I ask you, you a cop, you got to tell me.

00:40:43.340 Which is not true.

00:40:44.340 Not true at all.

00:40:44.960 You can lie.

00:40:45.520 Yeah, absolutely.

00:40:46.320 I actually didn't know that until relatively recently.

00:40:48.920 They go, are you a cop?

00:40:49.880 I was like, wait, cops can lie.

00:40:50.600 They go, are you a cop?

00:40:51.620 I go, no.

00:40:52.380 F no, are you?

00:40:53.360 No.

00:40:54.160 Well, all right, let's do business.

00:40:55.660 And I'm like, well, that was easy.

00:40:56.820 Yeah.

00:40:57.060 That was good.

00:40:57.820 You're like, by the way, keep telling everybody else that too, okay?

00:41:01.060 Yeah, I know.

00:41:01.820 I know.

00:41:02.540 Who knew?

00:41:03.400 So you used to ask about criminal activity.

00:41:04.900 Um, not to give away tradecraft, but there would be things, uh, that we can do that make

00:41:11.820 it look like we're doing illegal activity, but you're just bolstering yourself or, or

00:41:16.440 look, in my experience, the favorite color is green.

00:41:22.740 Greed wins in the criminal world.

00:41:24.320 Uh, so if they're making money, uh, uh, uh, for instance, with the one percenter, I was

00:41:37.780 in, uh, uh, the case was against the outlaws, motorcycle club, uh, uh, my part, and it was

00:41:43.420 about two years.

00:41:44.100 Um, but two years you, you were with them.

00:41:47.260 Um, wow.

00:41:48.200 Yeah.

00:41:48.480 Uh, so the first illegal activity we were doing is they were reporting their vehicle stolen

00:41:56.800 and getting the insurance money, scamming insurance fraud, but they were selling me at a stolen

00:42:02.560 price, the vehicles.

00:42:03.680 Oh, got it.

00:42:04.380 So they were collecting the insurance, uh, payment and then they were selling to me for

00:42:09.440 a discounted rate or whatever.

00:42:11.120 Yeah.

00:42:11.460 For a stolen rate.

00:42:12.560 Usually.

00:42:12.700 Why were they selling to you?

00:42:13.960 Were you a, were you a buyer or my story in that case was that I was, uh, I mean, eventually

00:42:19.960 I had a legit reason to be where I was at, but, uh, the criminal part is they believe that

00:42:24.880 I was a high ranking member of an international theft ring and I was based on the border of

00:42:30.320 Mexico and, and I was just speaking the truth.

00:42:33.780 I mean, the cartel loved four by four V eights.

00:42:37.060 So you'd buy, you'd buy trucks for cheap shipping down to Mexico was the story.

00:42:41.320 Yeah.

00:42:41.720 Right.

00:42:42.700 Trade them for whatever.

00:42:44.200 Yeah.

00:42:44.700 Um, guns, dope, whatever.

00:42:48.260 That's wild.

00:42:49.380 Yeah.

00:42:49.980 And then, so they start to, in this case, what started to develop a relationship with you,

00:42:54.500 build some, some trust and bring you in on more or what does that look like?

00:42:58.260 Uh, for that case, uh, in particular, yeah.

00:43:00.940 Then they carjack somebody, you know, at gunpoint, steal a car.

00:43:04.120 So now it's getting serious.

00:43:05.100 They're like, Hey, we got to get rid of this one.

00:43:06.540 They called me Tex cause I was from Texas.

00:43:09.520 Um, not a far stretch.

00:43:11.980 You could pass.

00:43:12.500 How did you get the name?

00:43:13.520 Yeah.

00:43:14.060 And I was like, Hmm, that's clever.

00:43:15.400 Cause I'm from Texas.

00:43:16.120 Uh, but, uh, yeah, they, uh, they say, Hey Tex, we need to get rid of this vehicle.

00:43:24.340 And it's got whatever on star low jack, whatever it was at the time.

00:43:28.380 Uh, I'm like, don't worry about it.

00:43:29.600 We'll get rid of it.

00:43:30.180 And then they would go steal trucks off a lot.

00:43:32.660 Cause they knew that.

00:43:33.760 Yeah.

00:43:33.860 Roll up with an F three 50, you know, they just pop the steering wheel.

00:43:37.160 And that you got to be careful with.

00:43:38.380 Cause I'm, am I, am I directing them to go steal cars off the lot?

00:43:41.740 Yeah.

00:43:42.060 Because then it starts to look as an entrapment type thing.

00:43:44.780 And yeah, sure.

00:43:45.600 And in the undercover, uh, world using the undercover technique, generally, uh, if you're doing,

00:43:53.120 if you're doing your wherewithal, um, the, the evidence is so overwhelming.

00:43:58.080 Only thing the defense can really do is either claim entrapment or try to make you look like

00:44:01.860 a piece of trash on the stand.

00:44:03.120 Right.

00:44:03.340 So just undermine your credibility.

00:44:04.700 Yeah.

00:44:05.140 That's it.

00:44:05.540 Yeah.

00:44:05.940 Because I mean, the evidence is, like I said, it's, I mean, hell, how can you, that's

00:44:08.940 you, that's you, that's you.

00:44:10.540 And so what was the evidence?

00:44:12.320 I mean, the evidence isn't just simply you saying, I saw this, like there's actually

00:44:15.560 got to be hard evidence.

00:44:16.880 Yeah.

00:44:17.340 I mean, well, I mean, you, you, you report a vehicle stolen, you sell it to me and we

00:44:21.500 got, you have a vehicle.

00:44:22.540 Yeah.

00:44:22.700 We got that motorcycle, stuff like that.

00:44:25.460 Um, buy dope from them, things like that.

00:44:30.040 Um, or just gathering recordings.

00:44:33.260 Right.

00:44:33.600 Um, I mean, you, if your reports are well-written and you can go back on those five years later

00:44:41.500 and they'll stand on their own.

00:44:43.380 Um, but a recording is going to be much better.

00:44:46.800 Audio, video, audio, video, like wearing a wire, that, that type of thing.

00:44:50.820 Yep.

00:44:51.380 Was that something that, uh, these guys, when they're engaged in this behavior, like really

00:44:55.460 skeptical of, or really aware of a wire and audio and that sort of thing?

00:44:59.700 Uh, again, it depends on the target.

00:45:03.320 Yeah.

00:45:03.740 But like the outlaws.

00:45:05.520 Yeah.

00:45:05.860 Yeah.

00:45:06.180 Yeah, for sure.

00:45:06.980 Um, there was a pretty scary incident about a year and a half in with them.

00:45:12.060 Uh, I bet again, with them for a year and a half, uh, doing all kinds of stuff.

00:45:17.440 Um, and we were up in the ante, uh, the FBI was up in the ante and we were going to do,

00:45:23.020 uh, a drug protection.

00:45:25.060 What is that drug protection?

00:45:26.380 Well, they were going to, they were going to help guard and make sure nothing happened to

00:45:29.660 a drug shipment while we handed it to another.

00:45:32.640 Oh, got it.

00:45:33.380 You know?

00:45:33.660 Okay.

00:45:34.260 So, uh, but because we upped the ante, um, the night before the deal, uh, they had me

00:45:42.220 come to the clubhouse.

00:45:43.400 I came to the clubhouse and they took me down in the basement and stripped me at gunpoint

00:45:49.680 looking for a wire after a year and a half being with them.

00:45:53.140 Right.

00:45:53.420 Um, what we found out is that it had gone up the chain of the outlaws and, uh, the top

00:46:00.860 was like, Hey, has this guy been checked?

00:46:03.120 And they were like, look, man, we've done eight jobs with this guy.

00:46:06.440 We're not in bracelets, you know, handcuffs.

00:46:08.000 Right.

00:46:09.020 Uh, he said, no, still check them.

00:46:11.500 So it wouldn't have been a problem if I wasn't wired, but I was wired.

00:46:15.400 Oh, you were wired.

00:46:16.100 I was wired.

00:46:16.960 Yeah.

00:46:17.420 So what happened?

00:46:19.200 Missed it by that much.

00:46:21.460 Yeah.

00:46:21.760 You didn't have, well, I don't understand.

00:46:23.380 They didn't find it.

00:46:24.280 They didn't find, where was it?

00:46:25.620 Uh, so trade craft, right?

00:46:28.180 I won't give away, but I had, I had, uh, I had an audio video recorder in some of my

00:46:35.060 clothing.

00:46:35.560 Got it.

00:46:36.020 Okay.

00:46:36.640 Um, I had another strictly audio device.

00:46:39.620 I like to have backup because if one craps the bed, you know, or, you know, you can't run

00:46:44.400 video 24 seven cause it'll eat the whole battery life.

00:46:47.560 I mean, it's way better now.

00:46:49.060 Sure.

00:46:49.320 In 10, 20 years than it was, you know, get your cell phone.

00:46:52.940 Oh yeah.

00:46:53.460 Like, yeah, exactly.

00:46:54.220 Record something like that.

00:46:55.380 And hours of it.

00:46:56.060 Right.

00:46:56.560 Yeah.

00:46:56.860 And great battery life.

00:46:58.300 So, uh, yeah, I know.

00:47:01.040 Come on.

00:47:01.980 Why go to all the trouble of hiding all this stuff?

00:47:03.880 You got a cell phone in your hand.

00:47:04.780 Exactly.

00:47:05.440 Oh, I don't know why I didn't think of that.

00:47:10.280 So I'm such an idiot.

00:47:11.380 You were, I can't imagine what you must've been feeling in the moment.

00:47:14.720 Ah, shit and gold bricks.

00:47:15.800 Cause they would've killed you.

00:47:16.680 People ask, I don't know.

00:47:19.740 I would imagine if you asked them today, they probably would, they would probably slow walk

00:47:23.360 and be like, no, we'd let him go.

00:47:25.360 Yeah.

00:47:25.580 Or I don't know whether I'd have got my ass beat or, or shot.

00:47:29.280 Yeah.

00:47:29.580 I did look for plastic on the floor, um, because I saw a rope and, and even plastic.

00:47:36.040 What do you mean?

00:47:37.100 Uh, and, and, oh, like a plastic sheet.

00:47:39.680 Yes.

00:47:40.120 Got it.

00:47:40.540 Okay.

00:47:40.780 Yeah.

00:47:40.980 In that world.

00:47:41.740 Yeah.

00:47:41.860 Okay.

00:47:42.140 Yeah.

00:47:42.480 I had to explain that to somebody.

00:47:44.040 No, I, it took me a second.

00:47:45.500 You got it.

00:47:45.800 You got it.

00:47:46.160 But I was, I did another interview and I had to explain it.

00:47:48.920 They're like, I don't understand.

00:47:49.680 And I go, well, let me just say this.

00:47:51.440 If you're ever in a deteriorating situation and somebody is telling you to spread plastic

00:47:57.280 all over the floor, or you walk into a room and it's covered in plastic.

00:48:00.440 You're done.

00:48:01.060 That's not a good sign.

00:48:02.020 Right.

00:48:02.500 You'll watch a mafia movie.

00:48:04.140 You know what I mean?

00:48:04.840 Yeah.

00:48:05.420 You go swimming with the fishes.

00:48:07.580 So you, but there was a rope there in there.

00:48:10.240 Yeah.

00:48:10.680 Uh, clothesline.

00:48:12.180 I like enough is the road name of the guy that, that did it to me.

00:48:14.820 He was the enforcer.

00:48:15.800 Uh, but he even makes a joke.

00:48:17.760 He's like, Oh, clothesline.

00:48:18.800 You had, I'm like, you know, it's not.

00:48:21.440 It's not funny.

00:48:22.000 You're like, I'm laughing right now.

00:48:23.660 I don't like this anymore.

00:48:24.880 Uh, I want to go home or I could have just said, look, listen, I'm an FBI agent.

00:48:30.680 This is too much.

00:48:31.820 I mean, but what happened?

00:48:33.740 Did that kid, did that run cross your mind?

00:48:35.380 Like, like, Hey, I'm going to just out myself right here.

00:48:38.280 Uh, yes.

00:48:39.560 Um, but type a personality.

00:48:42.460 We're sitting there going, I'm going to get the evidence.

00:48:44.300 I'm going to do this.

00:48:44.820 I can make it through this.

00:48:45.840 Oh, and even as an undercover coordinator, uh, which is the, the, the, the,

00:48:51.440 there's an undercover coordinator in every field office of the FBI.

00:48:54.040 I was one.

00:48:55.440 Um, so you're supposed to, hopefully it's a seasoned person.

00:48:58.460 Right.

00:48:58.900 Knows a lot about the policies and everything.

00:49:00.980 You're the frontline, you're the liaison, the headquarters for the division or field

00:49:05.160 office.

00:49:05.500 Um, but like you could, you could be looking and going like, if you're a younger undercover,

00:49:10.100 I might look at it and go, Hey, that's too dangerous.

00:49:12.280 You're not going to do that.

00:49:13.080 We're not going to know that in my opinion, I say, no, not doing it.

00:49:16.340 You're not ready.

00:49:16.880 That sort of thing.

00:49:17.600 Or it's just too dangerous.

00:49:18.820 Right.

00:49:19.140 But a lot of me and my peers and my mentors, we're looking at it going, but I can do it.

00:49:22.960 I would do it.

00:49:23.600 Yeah.

00:49:24.940 You're like, well, but you just said it's very dangerous.

00:49:27.280 Yeah, it is.

00:49:28.360 But I can do it.

00:49:29.600 Man.

00:49:29.960 I got this.

00:49:30.460 So what happened is they call me to the clubhouse.

00:49:34.760 I get there and the president, Joe Dawkins is like, Oh, we're still, we're still having

00:49:39.560 church, which for the listeners that don't know, uh, biker clubs, uh, a lot of them, uh,

00:49:45.020 have a mandatory weekly meeting and they refer to that as church.

00:49:47.820 That's church is their, their club meeting.

00:49:49.700 Yeah.

00:49:49.980 So, uh, he's like, we still have, we're still having church.

00:49:52.480 And I'm like, I was kind of smart.

00:49:53.560 I was like, why'd you even have me come over here?

00:49:55.700 Why tell me to come over here?

00:49:56.580 If you're not even ready.

00:49:58.240 We give something to eat, a couple of drinks.

00:50:00.460 Come back.

00:50:01.400 Um, and they call me in and I'm just doing what I normally do.

00:50:06.060 But I knew that, uh, the United States attorney's office was, would love it if they were of their

00:50:14.520 own free will talking about, uh, this drug protection inside the clubhouse because it

00:50:20.480 just helps.

00:50:21.120 And it ties everything together.

00:50:22.220 And, and I said, yeah, man, I mean, cause that's what we do.

00:50:26.180 I'm going in there.

00:50:26.920 I'm going to get evidence.

00:50:27.620 Cool.

00:50:27.800 Uh, so I go in there and we're just going back and forth.

00:50:32.280 Uh, I'm cracking jokes like I normally do, but what I couldn't see because, uh, the video

00:50:38.160 device would show later, I'm looking at you like this and I'm cracking a joke, but then

00:50:42.880 I would turn my head.

00:50:44.140 Oh, you're still being filmed, but I can't see you.

00:50:46.860 And it would be like, when I'm looking at you, you're laughing.

00:50:49.800 Right.

00:50:50.160 But as soon as I turn my head, you go stone face.

00:50:52.340 Oh, because you know, that guy is something.

00:50:54.540 They're, they're getting ready.

00:50:55.500 They know they're getting, they all know that I'm pretty sure it was the topic of their

00:50:58.660 church meeting.

00:50:59.760 We're getting ready to take texts and checking.

00:51:01.480 Um, so, so I get, uh, clothesline who's supposed to be a very good friend of mine, probably

00:51:10.920 the second close relationship in that, that case.

00:51:13.980 Um, says, Hey Tex, you got a minute?

00:51:16.600 And I'm like, yeah, I've been in that clubhouse.

00:51:18.600 I can't tell you how many times.

00:51:19.820 Sure.

00:51:20.100 There's only one door I'd never been in.

00:51:21.860 And that was the door we went in.

00:51:22.860 Went down to the basement.

00:51:23.860 And it was, uh, it was very tight, dark, you know, uh, stairwell.

00:51:29.360 Um, I couldn't stand, I'm six, four, but I mean, I couldn't stand up straight.

00:51:32.840 Right.

00:51:33.100 You know, I'm like leaning over.

00:51:34.320 I could probably touch the wall on both sides.

00:51:35.840 In other words, it's really adding to the tunnel vision.

00:51:38.200 Right.

00:51:38.740 The walls are literally closing around you.

00:51:40.820 Yeah.

00:51:40.840 You're like, yeah.

00:51:41.420 I'm like, I'm like, I don't like this.

00:51:42.980 I want to go home.

00:51:43.580 Oh no.

00:51:45.100 But I come down there and he's like, Hey, uh, there's a lot of shit going on and it's

00:51:50.020 my job to take care of my brothers.

00:51:52.020 He said, I need you to take all your clothes off.

00:51:54.200 And he goes, he goes, I want you to, I want you to write down your full name, your address.

00:51:59.040 Uh, I think he said, I'm not going to ask you to write down your kids' names.

00:52:03.220 Not like we couldn't get them if we wanted to.

00:52:05.940 Um, and I'm like, and at this point I'm having this whole crap moment.

00:52:09.340 I'm having the adrenaline dump.

00:52:10.500 Right.

00:52:11.120 And then he says, I need you to take all your clothes off.

00:52:13.240 I'm checking you for a wire.

00:52:14.720 Um, and I'm like, holy shit, man.

00:52:16.920 Because again, from a fighter standpoint, I'm down in a hole.

00:52:22.880 Uh, I mean, a basement would be very, it's stretching it a bit.

00:52:28.480 You know, it's more like a little cell.

00:52:29.800 Really?

00:52:30.160 Yeah.

00:52:30.560 Um, and even if I would have tried to fight my way out, they, they've got guns.

00:52:35.700 They've already shown me their guns.

00:52:37.040 There's one on the steps to keep me.

00:52:39.040 And then upstairs is 10 plus more outlaws.

00:52:43.700 Yeah, you might be able to take that guy, but you're not taking everybody.

00:52:45.680 And then there's the, the door to the clubhouse, which is dead bolted and more, more than one

00:52:52.100 dead bolt.

00:52:53.040 They've got a steel bar across it.

00:52:55.140 I think it was a steel frame.

00:52:56.680 So it's, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a pretty hard door to get through.

00:53:00.960 Um, harder than a regular door.

00:53:03.580 Right.

00:53:04.540 Uh, so, um, I, because of the oh crap moment, I forgot my middle name, but it's me.

00:53:11.260 I mean, I made the alias.

00:53:12.340 I know it, I know it backwards and forwards.

00:53:14.440 I've been Scott Calloway for ever.

00:53:17.400 Um, but because of the stress of the situation and that oh crap moment, I forgot my middle

00:53:21.480 name.

00:53:22.320 And so I'm going through this Rolodex in my head.

00:53:24.320 I'm going Scott, Scott, Scott Calloway, Scott Calloway, Scott Calloway.

00:53:27.200 I'm like, Scott, Judge Calloway.

00:53:28.480 Nope.

00:53:28.980 Damn it.

00:53:29.220 That was the middle name of my other alias.

00:53:30.540 You know?

00:53:31.080 So, and everything's ticking, right?

00:53:33.540 Slowing down that adrenaline dump.

00:53:35.180 You're getting the, the auditory exclusion is going whoosh, whoosh, slow and time dilation with

00:53:41.740 your eyes.

00:53:42.160 Everything you look is going click, click.

00:53:44.120 I tell people, like, have you ever been in a car wreck?

00:53:46.340 Like that first car wreck?

00:53:47.100 I mean, I remember I'm doing the steering wheel like this.

00:53:49.620 So just slow.

00:53:50.680 So slow.

00:53:51.520 And the car's going 360s.

00:53:53.740 And I'm like, whoa.

00:53:56.360 You know?

00:53:57.200 And it probably all happened in 10 seconds.

00:53:59.220 Right.

00:53:59.520 Right.

00:54:00.140 But, uh, so that's going on.

00:54:02.760 And then I remember my middle name, uh, cause I remember my initials.

00:54:05.940 Uh, I, I was being funny, um, because my initials were SAC, which is the head of an FBI field

00:54:11.940 office.

00:54:12.240 Okay.

00:54:12.760 I thought it was funny cause I knew I'd never be one.

00:54:14.760 Yeah.

00:54:16.300 I was like, I'm SAC.

00:54:17.640 I thought I was going to have to do something with SAC or something like that.

00:54:20.780 Yeah.

00:54:21.440 Well, that's a whole sidebar, but just think about this.

00:54:24.560 We'll jump right back into the basement, but think about this.

00:54:27.500 In the FBI, you've got the director under the director.

00:54:31.920 You have an assistant director, but the acronym is a dick.

00:54:34.900 Oh yeah.

00:54:35.240 And under the, a dick is, uh, a SAC under the sack is ASAC.

00:54:44.840 And under that is an SSA, which backwards spells ass.

00:54:48.300 And I'm like, it's very fitting.

00:54:50.000 I'm like, was somebody playing a joke on J. Edgar Hoover?

00:54:53.220 I'm like, come on.

00:54:53.880 That's right.

00:54:54.300 I'm like, I've got that sense of humor.

00:54:55.720 I'd have been like, that's funny.

00:54:57.320 But, uh, so back to the basement, I'm down there.

00:54:59.920 I remember my middle name.

00:55:01.760 I write it down.

00:55:02.880 Um, and I don't even know that I'll do like a distraction technique.

00:55:06.920 Is it picking up good?

00:55:07.680 Yeah.

00:55:07.920 No, I just wanted to make sure.

00:55:09.220 I, uh, when I, when I was going through the Rolodex in my head, I turn, I have no idea

00:55:14.300 I did this.

00:55:15.480 Um, but it's just like, I can show you video on video tactically of, uh, officers and

00:55:20.400 shootings.

00:55:20.920 They have no idea how many bullets they shot.

00:55:23.020 They have no idea that they took effective cover and did a magazine exchange.

00:55:27.560 That training, right?

00:55:28.500 But they, they trained it so much.

00:55:29.960 It's instinctive, right?

00:55:31.060 Some people call it muscle memory, but.

00:55:32.880 You train it so it becomes instinctive.

00:55:34.800 And that's really, it was all the what ifs and role playing at the undercover school and

00:55:39.120 shooting the breeze with other undercovers.

00:55:41.300 I, when I was trying to remember my name, I turn and I go, and what else do you need?

00:55:45.220 I'm like, my name and what else?

00:55:46.740 I had no idea I said that.

00:55:48.440 Really?

00:55:48.880 I would have never believed it.

00:55:49.960 You were just trying to delay, I mean, instinctively.

00:55:52.460 Yeah, I would have never, yeah, I would have never known.

00:55:54.480 If I didn't hear the recording and see it, I would have never known I said that.

00:55:57.600 And I probably would have denied it.

00:55:59.480 Did that buy you some time?

00:56:00.560 Yes.

00:56:00.740 And it also got me intelligence because I'm listening and they yell up, hey, probate,

00:56:06.220 what do you need for that website?

00:56:07.520 So I'm like, oh, okay.

00:56:08.580 Now they're just Googling me.

00:56:10.060 And back then there was a big thing called who's a rat.com.

00:56:12.880 Oh, really?

00:56:13.660 And like people get, they try to out narcs and stuff like that.

00:56:17.200 Right.

00:56:17.540 Okay.

00:56:17.800 Um, so I remember my little name and, and I write that down and then I take off, I take

00:56:24.500 off my, I take off my jacket.

00:56:26.520 I don't remember how many shirts I had on when it was cold.

00:56:28.740 So I probably had some layers on, took all that off, took my boots off.

00:56:32.740 I pull my jeans and underwear down around my ankles and that's as far as I went.

00:56:37.060 I didn't take my pants off, but I mean, hell, I'm naked from the ankles up.

00:56:40.300 Yeah.

00:56:40.500 Right.

00:56:40.700 You know, you're right there in all your glory.

00:56:44.040 I know.

00:56:45.200 And let's just say it was cold.

00:56:49.000 He's like, it wasn't that cold.

00:56:50.220 I mean, it was freezing in there.

00:56:52.980 The fear factor probably had something else to do with that.

00:56:55.400 Everything just shriveled up.

00:56:56.720 I'm sure of it.

00:56:57.440 I'm like, I tell people, I'm showing the video.

00:57:01.020 I'm like, did you hear that?

00:57:01.940 They're like, what?

00:57:02.380 Did you hear that sound?

00:57:03.980 I get, that was my ass sucking the air out of the room.

00:57:06.400 Just puckered right up.

00:57:08.560 I laugh now, but at the time I was scared.

00:57:10.600 I bet you weren't.

00:57:12.180 So he searches me and I think I'm done.

00:57:18.900 But by the way, if you hear the recording of this and see the video, you can hear, you've

00:57:23.380 got a baseline of me talking now.

00:57:25.540 I do not sound like this.

00:57:27.160 Really?

00:57:27.600 Because it's the stress.

00:57:29.400 Super nervous?

00:57:30.160 Oh man.

00:57:30.740 Speed, elevation?

00:57:31.560 My voice is clearly higher.

00:57:33.400 Higher, yeah.

00:57:34.100 Yeah, my throat's tighter.

00:57:36.880 I'm talking through my nose because I'm not even pronunciating.

00:57:39.440 You know, I'm enunciating.

00:57:40.960 I'm not even enunciating the words because I'm like, you know.

00:57:45.940 So I think I'm done.

00:57:48.100 And right about that time, he grabs a piece of my clothing.

00:57:52.360 And it happens to be the clothing that has a recording device in it.

00:57:54.960 And again, this is around 2005 to 2008.

00:57:57.540 So again, now technology is even way farther than that.

00:58:02.560 But let's just say the device I was using, if you were doing this to the planet, you're

00:58:08.320 going to feel it.

00:58:10.300 At least the actual recording part.

00:58:12.680 And right when he grabs it, he's kind of joking with me because again, we were supposed

00:58:17.840 to be friends.

00:58:18.280 Friends, yeah.

00:58:19.220 But, you know, we're going back and forth and talking while this is happening to me.

00:58:26.180 And he says, look, he goes, wouldn't you be suspect if somebody came into your town and

00:58:30.520 started doing all this stuff with you?

00:58:31.900 I said, yeah.

00:58:32.480 If they came up to me, I said, I didn't come up to you.

00:58:34.420 You guys called me.

00:58:35.600 I'm like, nobody has to do anything.

00:58:36.820 You don't want to do anything.

00:58:37.760 You know, I'm not forcing anybody to do anything.

00:58:39.880 And that sounded a lot clearer than I did on the recording.

00:58:45.040 It sounds a lot cooler now.

00:58:45.660 Yeah, it sounds cooler now.

00:58:47.080 I'm like, I probably was like, hey, you guys don't have to do nothing.

00:58:49.980 You don't want to.

00:58:52.880 He's like, what's wrong with you?

00:58:54.020 I got a cold.

00:58:55.000 All right.

00:58:55.080 You guys got anything to drink?

00:58:57.620 But so, you know, he even tells me, he goes, trust me, if somebody accused me of being

00:59:03.460 a fed, I'd smash him in the fucking mouth, you know?

00:59:05.500 And I'm like, but I remember, I didn't even know, but I responded.

00:59:08.180 I let him know because when he says to me, I go, I'm not happy.

00:59:11.300 And he goes, I wouldn't be either.

00:59:12.940 So I think I'm done.

00:59:14.060 And then he grabs his piece of clothing and he says, hey, I'm not going to find anything

00:59:19.240 in here I don't want to, right?

00:59:20.400 Like some naked pictures of my old lady.

00:59:21.800 And he laughs.

00:59:22.520 And of course, my laugh is like, you know, I'm like, again, I don't know I'm doing it.

00:59:28.960 I say again, as if you know the story, I apologize.

00:59:32.240 I've been telling it a lot.

00:59:33.500 I'm saying again to me, uh, what happens is I'm watching him need and go over this piece

00:59:41.280 of clothing, piece, piece of clothing.

00:59:43.120 I don't even know I did it.

00:59:44.720 It's an audible sigh.

00:59:45.740 You can hear it clearly on the recording as I'm watching him standing there.

00:59:49.400 I got my jeans back on, but no shirt.

00:59:51.200 So I'm watching him.

00:59:51.920 I'm going, oh, you hear that clearly across the, you know, and I'm like, oh, mother of

00:59:59.900 all this holy.

01:00:01.100 And, uh, and he missed it.

01:00:02.640 He missed it.

01:00:03.760 And, uh, he says, uh, I'm sorry.

01:00:06.460 I get asked all the time and you kind of led with this.

01:00:10.560 What would you have said if they found it?

01:00:13.320 Well, because of my stupid sense of humor and because of the bone he threw me, had he

01:00:17.740 felt something and said, what is this?

01:00:19.260 I would have, my first response probably would have been, I don't know, some naked pictures

01:00:22.460 of your old lady.

01:00:23.240 Right.

01:00:23.900 You know, of course it wouldn't have come off that cool.

01:00:25.700 I'm sure I don't know who's making me start sucking my thumb.

01:00:32.480 Yeah, totally.

01:00:33.200 Hit the fetal position.

01:00:34.660 Uh, but the only other thing I had to say in my head and I remember it just like it was

01:00:38.940 yesterday is I was going to say the gig's up.

01:00:41.860 I'm an undercover FBI agent and I can walk out of here and we can see each other in

01:00:47.320 court or all hell's going to break loose.

01:00:49.520 The issue with that statement would be that I would have been bluffing.

01:00:54.020 At least I believed I would have been bluffing because to my knowledge, every time I was

01:00:58.980 in that clubhouse, my team couldn't hear me, um, based on the equipment we had in those

01:01:05.820 years.

01:01:06.160 Right.

01:01:06.820 Uh, and it would have been a bluff.

01:01:10.880 Now, can you fight your way out?

01:01:13.080 I probably would have pulled a Chris Farley and knocked myself out on the joist as soon

01:01:16.780 as I started swinging, you know, like bam, son of a, you know, hit the ground, uh, black

01:01:22.160 y'all down, I'm down, save yourself.

01:01:27.320 It's too late for me.

01:01:29.440 Tell my wife and kids.

01:01:30.800 I love, uh, clearly I played this out of my head a few times.

01:01:34.400 You, you, yeah, I'm sure you did.

01:01:35.980 Uh, but, um, what I found out that night when I turned in my equipment, total adrenaline

01:01:42.760 high, I didn't sleep at all.

01:01:44.180 If I slept, it might've been 30 minutes.

01:01:45.900 Uh, yeah.

01:01:46.180 I can't imagine.

01:01:47.160 I'm just like, ah, you know, the after effects dumped.

01:01:50.560 Yeah.

01:01:50.820 Yeah.

01:01:51.140 And then it comes three hours later when you realize how dangerous it was.

01:01:54.480 And all of a sudden you go, Oh shit, you know, but I got to hand in my equipment to my case

01:01:59.660 team, which essentially the entire case, it was a FBI case agent who was actually a good

01:02:04.200 friend of mine who went through the Academy together.

01:02:06.780 Um, and two task force officers.

01:02:08.840 One of them was a Sergeant Higginbottom from a Massachusetts state troopers.

01:02:13.340 Right.

01:02:13.660 And there was detective Joe Cummings from Brockton police.

01:02:16.640 Okay.

01:02:16.920 So that, that was the core team, uh, me and those three, uh, in that night, the start of

01:02:24.220 the shift was the two task force officers.

01:02:26.480 It was Joe and Higgy.

01:02:28.320 And what I found out when I turned in my equipment was something in that initial interaction with

01:02:35.100 Joe dogs made their spotty senses go off.

01:02:38.180 And they were like, something doesn't feel right.

01:02:40.540 Doesn't feel right.

01:02:41.000 Wow.

01:02:41.280 And they had pulled close enough and they had heard everything.

01:02:44.520 Oh, so they knew you were down there and what was going on.

01:02:46.540 What they, what they told me, um, the way it was told to me is they immediately radioed

01:02:50.920 back to everybody else in Boston saying, Hey, cause this was in Tom, Massachusetts.

01:02:54.640 And they're like, Hey, uh, they got Scott in the basement, man, and they're stripping

01:02:57.780 him and he's wired.

01:02:59.400 So everybody's hauling ass with blue lights and sirens coming to Tom.

01:03:04.380 Um, and they had been in there cause as state and local, they'd been in that clubhouse.

01:03:10.600 So they knew the door was pretty fortified, right?

01:03:13.000 Their plan, uh, Joe and Higgy's plan was to drive the van that they ran into the cinder

01:03:19.440 block wall, right beside the door.

01:03:20.900 It was the right beside the frame.

01:03:22.460 Just smash it.

01:03:23.160 Just breach, breach, breach the wall around the door instead of the door.

01:03:27.400 Um, and, uh, again, they had vested up and they were ready, but there's so much that

01:03:32.640 goes into that because they had gotten to know me over that last year and a half.

01:03:37.400 Um, and the club now, is that what you're talking about?

01:03:41.040 No, the, the task force officers, the task force officers, because they're listening to

01:03:44.760 me panicking.

01:03:45.600 Yeah.

01:03:45.860 So they know that they're listening to me and they're going all this serious stuff,

01:03:48.720 but they could have pulled the trigger.

01:03:50.300 They could have, we could have ended the case right there.

01:03:52.580 And I'm not saying by any means, okay.

01:03:54.880 Any case is worth somebody's health, mental health, family.

01:03:58.340 Sure.

01:03:58.760 Yeah.

01:03:58.940 None of that.

01:03:59.820 Let that crap go.

01:04:01.000 And the older you get, the wiser you should get.

01:04:03.220 And the wiser you are, the safer you should be.

01:04:05.160 Right.

01:04:05.680 And sometimes safe ain't sexy.

01:04:07.680 Um, but they didn't pull the trigger.

01:04:10.660 They were ready, but they listened to me and listened to the situation.

01:04:14.780 And, uh, but I'll tell you a sidebar from that is during that time I had bought, everybody's

01:04:21.440 pretty familiar with what a burner phone is now.

01:04:23.540 Sure.

01:04:24.040 Do you just go to Walmart, whatever, buy, pay by the minute, you know, um, I learned about

01:04:29.120 how to use them from bad people.

01:04:30.360 Well, I mean, from targets, you know, so I used it for undercovers back in the day, but

01:04:34.740 I bought my wife one so I could contact that phone from my undercover phone.

01:04:39.000 Got it.

01:04:39.580 Um, cause you don't want to crisscross them.

01:04:41.340 No way.

01:04:42.100 Especially in today's time.

01:04:43.280 Good gravy.

01:04:44.060 Um, somebody could track you.

01:04:46.040 Oh yeah.

01:04:46.380 It's just, it's just poor operational security.

01:04:48.160 Yeah.

01:04:48.320 And you're just putting everybody else at risk and yeah.

01:04:50.460 So I would call her every night during that outlaw case and I don't care if it's five

01:04:54.560 in the morning, seven in the morning, I'm on my way back to the hotel.

01:04:57.160 I call her and she had the phone right by her bed and I'd just say, Hey, sometimes she'd

01:05:00.880 just say hello.

01:05:01.600 And I'd be like, yeah, I'm good.

01:05:02.700 I'm going to the hotel.

01:05:03.640 Just want you to know I'm done for the day and I'll call you later.

01:05:06.600 Uh, sometimes we'd talk that night when I called her.

01:05:10.220 Oh, the first thing she said was, are you okay?

01:05:12.460 Did she know something was up?

01:05:14.620 I'll get there.

01:05:15.320 Okay.

01:05:15.620 Uh, she says, are you okay?

01:05:18.220 And I'm like, yeah, why?

01:05:19.500 She said, I was driving with our girls tonight in McAllen, Texas.

01:05:22.680 And it's such and such time.

01:05:24.120 I got this overwhelming feeling and I pulled over on the side of the road and started praying

01:05:28.540 for you.

01:05:29.280 Well, I looked at the time.

01:05:30.680 It's when I was in the basement.

01:05:31.940 Oh my gosh.

01:05:33.260 Yeah.

01:05:33.760 And she's at the bottom of Texas on the border.

01:05:35.780 McAllen.

01:05:36.560 I'm in Boston.

01:05:37.900 That's not a phone call.

01:05:39.920 Apparently my Oh shit signal helped me.

01:05:42.020 Yeah.

01:05:42.540 Goes a long way.

01:05:43.560 Oh my gosh.

01:05:44.560 Yeah.

01:05:44.800 So that was pretty, pretty intense, man.

01:05:46.820 Yeah.

01:05:47.400 Pretty intense.

01:05:48.140 But we, I passed, lived to fight another day.

01:05:51.080 The next day we did the drug protection, um, 40 kilos of real coke, uh, cocaine and a thousand

01:05:57.960 pounds of weed, which really today.

01:05:59.860 Not that much.

01:06:00.420 Yeah.

01:06:01.100 So, and then you did another six months with them.

01:06:03.360 Uh, yeah.

01:06:03.740 Roughly.

01:06:04.140 Yeah.

01:06:04.380 Give or take.

01:06:04.860 Yeah.

01:06:06.060 But by then was, was it, uh, was there a less heat then or less skepticism on their part

01:06:12.980 after, after that night?

01:06:15.000 Um, or is it just more of the same?

01:06:17.100 Yeah.

01:06:17.300 I mean, I would say, yeah, I mean, I passed that test.

01:06:19.820 Um, but even say I'm in with Taunton and Brockton and all these people know me and maybe

01:06:27.580 they're not scrutinizing me anymore, but you go to a regional run or you go to a world run.

01:06:31.740 They don't know you.

01:06:32.280 I mean, I've this, this close to another president talking to Joe dog saying, who the F is this

01:06:38.640 guy and what's he doing in Massachusetts?

01:06:41.540 Oh yeah.

01:06:42.300 And I'm so you, the more people you meet, it's just more scrutiny.

01:06:45.240 More of it.

01:06:45.920 Yeah.

01:06:46.440 She's.

01:06:47.820 So you better know who you are.

01:06:50.100 Well, I mean the point that you made about, um, not drifting so far away from who you are,

01:06:56.460 that persona, that makes a lot of sense to me.

01:06:58.660 Well, and, uh, I've got friends, actors and stuff.

01:07:02.840 I've actually done some, uh, I've been on set, um, armor tactics, weapons, all that stuff.

01:07:10.000 I actually got a cameo in the, in the thing, but I, I, I've watched my friends put on training

01:07:15.300 for acting and stuff.

01:07:16.820 And a lot of it lines up with undercover.

01:07:19.060 It's like, I mean, just going and doing a casting call.

01:07:21.960 Don't go in there and, and try to take my accent and start talking like a New Yorker.

01:07:27.020 Right.

01:07:27.460 That's not just read it like you.

01:07:29.280 Right.

01:07:29.760 You know, as they, if they, maybe they'll, maybe you're not right for that part, but they're

01:07:34.320 thinking of another part down the road.

01:07:35.760 Um, but for me, it was easier just to stay close to myself with the exception of like,

01:07:40.380 I was going to say earlier, with the exception of like a pedophile.

01:07:42.740 Um, uh, or murder for hire.

01:07:48.240 Um, because this is the thing.

01:07:49.960 If, if you're hiring me to kill somebody, I'm probably not going to be hanging out with

01:07:53.760 you a lot.

01:07:54.760 Uh, probably don't need to ingratiate that much because I'm a killer.

01:07:57.960 You're hiring me to kill somebody.

01:07:59.160 Right.

01:07:59.660 Or if I'm a person providing me the bomb to go blow up a house or I'm giving you the

01:08:04.200 gun so you can go shoot up the synagogue.

01:08:06.860 Um, I'm probably not super friendly there, but for the most part, I'm, I'm still me.

01:08:12.020 Right.

01:08:12.380 May or may not be married, going to college, play ball, be a musician and singer.

01:08:17.860 May not, maybe none of that, but I'm pretty much bet I work out and ride motorcycles.

01:08:23.440 Yeah.

01:08:23.580 Same personality.

01:08:24.560 Yeah.

01:08:24.800 Yeah.

01:08:25.260 Do you ever have any thoughts about, um, retaliation now on the back end of it?

01:08:30.300 Yeah.

01:08:30.740 I mean, you got to always.

01:08:32.460 And you're also public too.

01:08:33.080 It's not like you're not, not talking about these things.

01:08:37.120 Should have thought about that.

01:08:40.380 Damn it.

01:08:41.260 Yeah.

01:08:42.140 They're on to me.

01:08:43.060 Yeah.

01:08:43.560 I think they probably are at this point.

01:08:46.660 They weren't before.

01:08:47.920 Listen, the, the thing about undercover work is you are building relationships that you're

01:08:52.260 going to betray and it actually sucks.

01:08:54.020 If you look at it that way and that's the true definition, it's terrible.

01:08:57.780 I mean, it's, you got to know how you're going to deal with that and rationalize it

01:09:00.700 to where it doesn't have an adverse impact on you and your psyche.

01:09:04.120 Right.

01:09:04.500 Um, but in a criminal world, not necessarily the I spy foreign counterintelligence world,

01:09:11.920 because those cases tend to go on and some of them never get taken down kind of thing.

01:09:15.340 Cause it's, it's intelligence based.

01:09:17.620 Um, we're not putting cuffs on people, but in the criminal world, which is pretty much

01:09:20.680 99.9% of the cases I did.

01:09:24.140 What happens is, is you're going to get arrested.

01:09:26.320 I may get arrested with you.

01:09:28.000 There's all kinds of different ways to do.

01:09:29.380 Sure.

01:09:29.700 Yeah.

01:09:30.340 But eventually you're going to be sitting with your defense attorney and you're going

01:09:33.820 to have discovery and that's supposed to be everything.

01:09:36.160 So you're going to hear the recording and you're going to know that I'm the undercover

01:09:39.380 because I've got a preamble on it.

01:09:41.080 Hey, this is UCE one, two, three, four.

01:09:43.900 It's March, whatever time is this Eastern standard time I'm going in to meet.

01:09:49.280 And then, then you got the recording.

01:09:50.620 So they're going to know at some point they may not have known my last name in real life,

01:09:55.100 but then again, that's the undercover world.

01:09:57.780 But as a law enforcement officer, I mean, I'm not infiltrating and betraying, but you

01:10:05.040 lock people up.

01:10:06.040 Right.

01:10:07.080 Now they're out and you see them at the grocery store when you're with your family, especially

01:10:11.020 on a local level.

01:10:11.720 You've had that happen?

01:10:12.480 Oh, absolutely.

01:10:13.300 Wow.

01:10:13.860 Yeah.

01:10:16.140 So what do you do?

01:10:17.760 You know, I mean, you got to think about it.

01:10:20.440 Yeah, it's wild to think about it.

01:10:21.320 Or like you're in a place getting ready to order something to eat and the guy says, hey,

01:10:25.280 Officer Payne.

01:10:26.260 And you're like, oh man, how you doing?

01:10:28.940 How do I know this guy?

01:10:30.920 I just got out.

01:10:32.060 You know, I did whatever, five, 10 years.

01:10:34.100 Remember when you arrested me and I'm like, probably shouldn't eat here.

01:10:37.660 Yeah.

01:10:38.020 Probably done here now.

01:10:39.240 Are we cool?

01:10:41.260 You like me?

01:10:43.300 If I were you, I'd probably be pissed at me.

01:10:44.960 Oh, for sure.

01:10:45.580 I try to be nice.

01:10:49.360 Like I said earlier, not dehumanize.

01:10:53.420 There's always a danger.

01:10:54.980 There's always a chance for retaliation.

01:10:58.640 Um, just, I try not to walk around in fear, but I don't walk around blind and I have

01:11:07.420 a plan, but me.

01:11:09.600 And I'm sure, I imagine your wife has a plan too, and she's integrated into this to some

01:11:16.380 degree.

01:11:16.800 To some degree.

01:11:17.600 Right.

01:11:17.820 Because she's not law enforcement.

01:11:19.120 Right.

01:11:19.360 Exactly.

01:11:19.560 She's not military.

01:11:20.600 She's not, uh, um, she, she's got on the job training just from being married to me.

01:11:27.300 Yeah.

01:11:27.720 You know, how long have you guys been married?

01:11:30.800 20, damn it.

01:11:31.960 Hang on.

01:11:32.820 Oh, I shouldn't ask you that.

01:11:34.400 24.

01:11:35.140 Okay.

01:11:35.840 So was she with you when you were just regular police officer, no under cover stuff?

01:11:41.580 No.

01:11:42.060 Okay.

01:11:42.500 When we started dating, I was already a vice narcotics officer.

01:11:45.200 Oh, okay.

01:11:45.860 So we laugh and that's in the book too, but we laugh.

01:11:48.260 Our conversations when we were dating would be like, cause she was in, she was in the Colorado,

01:11:53.780 Nebraska region.

01:11:54.820 So she's two hours behind me.

01:11:56.240 I'm in South Carolina.

01:11:57.020 Right.

01:11:57.640 And I'd get off at midnight or whatever and call.

01:12:00.760 She'd be like, so what'd you do today?

01:12:02.220 I mean, I picked up a couple of hookers and bought some cocaine, you know?

01:12:06.000 The only excuse where she's like, yeah, that's fine.

01:12:08.740 I know.

01:12:09.040 And doesn't have a problem with it.

01:12:09.960 She told her dad and he's an old cowboy.

01:12:12.660 And he's like, she's like, yeah, what's he do?

01:12:17.580 I don't know.

01:12:17.840 He gets heroin and cocaine and what?

01:12:21.740 Get the shotgun.

01:12:22.720 Yeah, for sure.

01:12:23.780 Wait, gee.

01:12:24.300 You got to be more careful her dad than the guy you're dealing with on a daily basis.

01:12:27.780 Yeah.

01:12:27.920 You're like, uh, he's out there roping me, dragging me behind the horse.

01:12:32.820 It was for the job.

01:12:36.320 Oh man.

01:12:37.040 That's wild.

01:12:38.000 Are you, um, so you were in law enforcement for what?

01:12:41.820 Almost 30 years.

01:12:42.780 28.

01:12:43.280 28 years.

01:12:44.180 Are you, do you miss, you're still involved in some training it sounds like, but do you

01:12:48.340 miss the field side of it?

01:12:51.300 Uh, I think the number one thing I miss is flying armed.

01:12:55.540 Hmm.

01:12:56.060 I hope that changes.

01:12:57.140 Yeah.

01:12:57.400 That'd be nice.

01:12:58.040 I hope they, I hope they look in, I mean, let's, let's don't give it to everybody just

01:13:01.720 because you're former cop, former military.

01:13:03.340 Yeah.

01:13:03.880 If you have these certifications and you can qualify and.

01:13:08.400 Is that on the docket?

01:13:09.180 I didn't even heard of this.

01:13:10.060 I don't know, but it should be.

01:13:11.180 I mean, I, I, the way you're saying it, I was like, oh, did I miss something?

01:13:14.560 No, I think they're talking about like, they're starting to open up now and say, if you've

01:13:18.320 got to conceal and carry, you can conceal carry in any state.

01:13:20.740 Oh yeah.

01:13:21.300 They're starting to do stuff like that.

01:13:22.560 So I kind of hope it goes to that, but, um, that's just me being selfish because I'd like

01:13:27.160 to have a gun.

01:13:27.680 Well, it's, I mean, it's selfish maybe, but also with your line of work selfless because

01:13:32.740 it's there to protect yourself and other people.

01:13:34.800 Yeah.

01:13:35.320 Um, but I miss that the most.

01:13:37.860 And after flying on for 23 years to go to the airport, I mean, I'm like, ah, man, I've

01:13:43.040 searched that backpack.

01:13:44.080 Good.

01:13:45.080 And then it goes through the, and it goes, ding.

01:13:47.420 And I see, I see them all gathering around.

01:13:48.900 I go, uh, it's my, it's me.

01:13:51.180 It's mine.

01:13:51.700 I know it's me.

01:13:52.620 I go, I don't know what's in there.

01:13:54.320 I'm like, I flew on for 23 years.

01:13:55.840 That's for me.

01:13:56.560 The first couple of times I traveled after retiring.

01:13:58.520 Yeah.

01:13:58.640 They, uh, TSA has a couple of my knobs and some fully loaded magazines.

01:14:04.620 I was like, I was looking for that magazine.

01:14:06.740 I've actually had, got a, got a bullet through TSA on several occasions inadvertently, of

01:14:12.160 course, you know, but I'm like, I missed that one.

01:14:14.280 And then I, uh, this is, I was on a, I was on leave.

01:14:17.900 I was in Iraq.

01:14:18.480 This was 2005 and I came home for a couple of weeks for leave and I'm flying back and we

01:14:23.320 fly uniform.

01:14:23.860 So I'm flying back uniformed and I've got my big green duffel.

01:14:26.560 And I go through the thing and they pull me aside and I had my uniform on and I'm like,

01:14:32.280 Hey, we picked up something on your bag.

01:14:33.860 I'm like, what?

01:14:35.060 And they're like, gunpowder residue.

01:14:36.660 I'm like, attracts.

01:14:38.900 They're like, can you explain that?

01:14:40.180 I'm like, I thought, I thought this kind of explained it.

01:14:43.800 And they're like, are you on active duty?

01:14:45.540 I'm like, yeah, again.

01:14:46.940 Yeah.

01:14:47.240 Yes.

01:14:47.760 How about this?

01:14:48.620 I like to shoot guns.

01:14:50.620 Sometimes I carry those guns in my bag.

01:14:52.440 That's right.

01:14:52.980 There's no guns in there right now.

01:14:54.500 Yeah.

01:14:54.880 But there's probably residue.

01:14:56.020 There might be someone there.

01:14:57.320 Yeah.

01:14:58.200 Well, Scott, I appreciate you coming down and talk with me, man.

01:15:00.960 No problem.

01:15:01.440 To hear a little bit about your story and stuff is a life that I'm just, most people are just

01:15:06.520 not familiar with.

01:15:07.520 Yeah, I try to be really careful too because I'm so transparent and I'm an instructor.

01:15:15.240 I'm a teacher.

01:15:15.920 I'm a speaker.

01:15:16.420 And I go out and do this stuff.

01:15:19.140 And I did it for umpteen years for the FBI.

01:15:21.840 I traveled sometimes the world to teach.

01:15:24.980 And now I'm retired and I'm just, I want to try to be real careful because there's so

01:15:30.500 many people that are out there still doing the job and there are men and women out there

01:15:37.860 that have done way more undercover stuff than me.

01:15:40.600 They have people going through more harrowing things and some people don't want to tell their

01:15:44.200 story.

01:15:44.620 Some people don't have the chance to like I've been blessed with.

01:15:47.920 So I try to come from a humble spot and not tell too much, you know?

01:15:54.440 And from where I sit, you, you, you seem like you were willing and able to share enough

01:16:00.240 of the story where you get the idea, but not give away any sort of tactical advantage or

01:16:03.820 anything like that.

01:16:04.900 And you know, my, my, my counter argument to some of the haters and they come at you

01:16:10.960 and go, oh my gosh, I got somebody, the Rolling Stones article came out three Februaries

01:16:15.080 ago, 2022.

01:16:16.960 And, uh, he's giving away tradecraft.

01:16:19.420 I'm like, what did I say?

01:16:21.000 Well, you said you had a fake ID.

01:16:22.340 And I'm like, and I'm like, dang, you don't think the average reasonable person on the

01:16:30.400 street doesn't know that I'm not coming in as Scott Payne, that kind of makes me not

01:16:36.140 undercover.

01:16:37.040 You know, I'm like, I didn't say how we got it.

01:16:39.840 I didn't say what are the procedures and what are the safety nets we have around?

01:16:44.600 I didn't say none of that.

01:16:45.420 I had a fake ID, you know?

01:16:48.160 I had a fake ID when I was 16 too.

01:16:50.280 Right.

01:16:50.760 Yeah.

01:16:50.880 It's like, when I was 16, the legal drinking age was 18 and right about the time I was

01:16:56.540 turning 18, I was like, you move the goalposts.

01:17:02.900 That's funny.

01:17:03.620 Well, um, for the guys who are listening, want to pick up a copy of the book or connect with

01:17:07.400 you?

01:17:07.520 How do they do that?

01:17:08.480 Uh, it's, and you can pre-order right now.

01:17:10.720 It comes out tomorrow.

01:17:12.160 Yeah.

01:17:12.440 Tomorrow.

01:17:12.880 Yeah.

01:17:13.020 Tomorrow.

01:17:13.540 Yeah.

01:17:13.780 Yeah.

01:17:13.820 Tuesday, the 25th.

01:17:15.420 Um, audio book is me.

01:17:17.660 I did it.

01:17:18.260 My voice.

01:17:19.120 Uh, and you can.

01:17:20.460 The high voice or this voice?

01:17:22.480 The studio voice.

01:17:24.180 All right.

01:17:24.400 Got it.

01:17:25.060 I tried to put on the Barry White.

01:17:26.800 Hello.

01:17:27.320 Yeah.

01:17:27.480 The sexy voice.

01:17:28.760 There I was in the basement.

01:17:31.420 Naked.

01:17:32.860 With another man.

01:17:34.000 With two other men.

01:17:35.120 Was, uh, what's his, uh, what is it?

01:17:39.300 Clothesline?

01:17:40.160 Clothesline.

01:17:40.640 Is he, uh, was he a big guy?

01:17:42.260 Was he as big as you?

01:17:43.340 Was he?

01:17:43.840 No.

01:17:44.400 Because he was the enforcer, right?

01:17:45.460 He was the enforcer.

01:17:46.020 Yeah.

01:17:46.180 He wasn't super huge, but I mean, dangerous is dangerous, right?

01:17:49.760 I mean.

01:17:50.380 I do this all the time with training and speaking.

01:17:52.620 I'm like, if I showed you, because people are like, you know, neo-Nazis or terrorists or

01:17:56.420 what's I get?

01:17:57.700 First of all, there's no boulder plate.

01:17:59.900 What does a terrorist look like?

01:18:01.340 I don't know.

01:18:01.800 Uh, but I say, look, if I would have showed you a picture of the kids from Columbine,

01:18:05.220 before Columbine happened, what would you say?

01:18:07.340 Yeah.

01:18:07.760 How about the kid from Aurora?

01:18:09.580 Orange and yellow and pink, whatever hair.

01:18:12.260 What would you say?

01:18:13.040 How about the kid in Charleston before he killed the people at the black church?

01:18:17.520 Bowl haircut and all that.

01:18:18.860 What would you say?

01:18:20.100 I'd say, dad's dead.

01:18:21.080 Yeah.

01:18:21.440 You know?

01:18:21.980 Um, and I'll have to tell you, when you're in the military, you've done deployments.

01:18:26.340 But, um, yeah.

01:18:27.880 So the book is codenamed Pell Horse.

01:18:31.180 Uh, we went with that first because every cool,

01:18:35.120 undercover title has been taken multiple times.

01:18:38.300 Trying to find titles is tough.

01:18:40.020 It's very tough.

01:18:41.180 No doubt.

01:18:42.080 But Pell Horse was my moniker in that group, the base.

01:18:45.100 Okay.

01:18:45.440 Uh, that, that's kind of the neo-Nazi accelerationist group.

01:18:48.700 And that was a, um, nod to, uh, like the pale horse in the, in the Bible.

01:18:55.520 Okay.

01:18:56.140 Got it.

01:18:56.440 Four Horsemen.

01:18:56.820 Yeah.

01:18:57.780 Four Horsemen.

01:18:58.460 Yeah.

01:18:58.940 And on his name was death.

01:19:00.880 Yeah.

01:19:01.400 My, my moniker was pale horse.

01:19:03.580 And then you could put the at whatever.

01:19:05.380 And I was at eater of souls.

01:19:07.340 Oh yeah.

01:19:08.220 Barred that from Bray Wyatt.

01:19:09.460 That kind of, uh, he passed away.

01:19:12.900 May he rest in peace, but he was a, he was a friend, a professional wrestler.

01:19:16.740 Uh, his real name was Wyndham Rotunda.

01:19:18.500 But, uh, yeah, he, uh, he was, he was an eater of worlds.

01:19:22.320 Oh, I know.

01:19:22.740 I, uh, yeah, he was with, um, there's, there's two of them and then a sister or something is

01:19:29.540 there.

01:19:29.880 Yeah.

01:19:30.140 The Wyatt family.

01:19:31.220 Yes.

01:19:31.880 Bray Wyatt.

01:19:32.400 And then what was the other one?

01:19:33.840 Well, he's got a brother.

01:19:34.800 Yeah.

01:19:35.100 What's his name?

01:19:35.740 I can't remember.

01:19:36.200 Oh, they had, they've had the Wyatt family.

01:19:38.600 They had all kinds of different wrestlers that really weren't his kinfolk.

01:19:41.200 Oh, but that's what I'm thinking of.

01:19:42.920 Yeah.

01:19:43.120 But he, it was the Wyatt family and then he does have a brother and a sister.

01:19:47.000 Yeah.

01:19:47.840 But yeah, we hooked up a long time ago cause I've always had, uh, actually this is how

01:19:53.240 all this happened because of my connection with professional wrestling.

01:19:56.360 Is that right?

01:19:56.880 Yeah.

01:19:57.240 This is how it all started.

01:19:59.120 I was at Kane, uh, Glenn Jacobs, uh, is my mayor.

01:20:03.560 And, uh, when he was running, uh, I was out with them and then somebody that was helping

01:20:08.580 with his campaign became a great friend just years ago and they started going into movie

01:20:14.000 stuff.

01:20:14.420 And then, and then you look at the last, I don't know how many years and it's like, we

01:20:19.040 get introduced to this person, this person, this person, and then you get a rolling stones

01:20:23.660 and then you get a book bill and whatever.

01:20:25.600 Isn't that wild?

01:20:26.340 But yeah.

01:20:26.880 Yeah.

01:20:27.920 Pretty cool.

01:20:28.400 Well, I appreciate it, man.

01:20:29.240 Yeah.

01:20:29.420 And I appreciate the service that you've, you've done for your community for us as well.

01:20:32.660 You know, it takes a, I think it takes a unique and interesting person to live the kind of

01:20:39.080 life that you did, but we need those kinds of people.

01:20:40.840 So I'm grateful for that.

01:20:42.060 Yeah.

01:20:42.360 Uh, consider it an honor and, uh, same to you.

01:20:45.320 Um, I tell people, cause you, when you do this kind of stuff, you meet all kinds of people

01:20:49.920 from all kinds of walks of life with completely opposing belief systems.

01:20:54.840 Sure.

01:20:55.160 But, uh, what I try to tell them is I said, look, just bear with me.

01:20:59.000 I said, but if you come in and we want to talk about this, you just need to understand

01:21:02.940 that there are evil people on the planet.

01:21:04.940 They want to do evil things to get people.

01:21:06.640 And it's been that way pretty much since the beginning of the time.

01:21:09.460 And somebody has to get on that wall.

01:21:12.160 Somebody's got to be on it.

01:21:13.500 So I'm, I'm happy.

01:21:15.460 I'm happy with the career.

01:21:16.560 And, uh, some of it I miss.

01:21:18.600 Um, but a lot of it, I don't, I didn't, I didn't realize how much of a pressure cooker

01:21:23.720 it was just for me to enter the doors of the FBI office until I retired.

01:21:28.000 I mean, I'm like, I go three days and I cuss at all.

01:21:30.680 I'd be in the office 10 minutes and I've done dropped 15 F bombs.

01:21:35.420 And I'm like, I got to get out of this place.

01:21:38.240 I'm like, what the, you know, my God.

01:21:42.940 That's funny.

01:21:43.580 But yeah, uh, it was, it's, it's been, it's been good and who knows, maybe I'll bond back

01:21:49.180 in, not, not FBI.

01:21:50.660 Um, but, uh, I got a buddy.

01:21:53.020 If he went sheriff, maybe I'll bond back in.

01:21:54.760 Do some law enforcement stuff.

01:21:55.920 Round it out to 30 year career.

01:21:57.660 There you go.

01:21:58.360 There you go.

01:21:58.680 It's that's that, uh, alpha mentality you're talking about.

01:22:01.520 Get it at 30.

01:22:02.400 No, I just, well, I'm just like, you know, maybe, but I'm like, I'm like a full circle.

01:22:07.900 I was a bouncer.

01:22:08.680 I was a cop.

01:22:09.300 I was FBI.

01:22:09.940 If I got to become a cop, then when I stopped being a cop, I got to at least bounce for one

01:22:13.480 night.

01:22:13.720 You do.

01:22:14.040 When you retire for good, go bounce one night for like two minutes.

01:22:19.140 Right.

01:22:19.480 You're like, all right, I'm good.

01:22:20.380 Okay.

01:22:20.860 That'll be a $5 cover charge.

01:22:22.580 All right.

01:22:23.020 I'm out.

01:22:24.000 Well, thanks, man.

01:22:24.660 Appreciate it.

01:22:25.220 Thank you, man.

01:22:26.840 Man, Mr. Scott Payne.

01:22:28.180 Uh, I've really enjoyed this conversation and it's one of the few conversations that I

01:22:31.960 got to sit down and do in person.

01:22:33.900 And Scott is an impressive individual.

01:22:36.720 Uh, he's an imposing figure.

01:22:38.440 He can be a very intimidating figure.

01:22:40.480 I'm sure at times if he needs to be.

01:22:42.240 Uh, but the stories that he shared and the work that he was doing was so fascinating

01:22:46.580 and interesting to me.

01:22:47.780 And I would highly, highly encourage you to pick up a copy of his book, codename Pale

01:22:52.440 Horse.

01:22:53.620 Uh, make sure to connect with him, connect with me.

01:22:55.380 If you like the episode, share it with as many people that would be interested in hearing

01:22:59.460 what this man has to say, because it is pretty incredible what he's done.

01:23:03.860 Also make sure to check out the Iron Council.

01:23:05.540 We close again tonight at midnight Eastern, order a man.com slash iron council.

01:23:10.300 And I would be remiss if I did not talk about our good friends and show sponsors, Montana

01:23:15.940 knife company.

01:23:17.120 They just did a big tactical drop last week and I've got two of their tactical knives

01:23:21.980 that I'm missing too still, which I will pick up.

01:23:24.640 Uh, but if you're looking for a good tactical knife, everyday carry hunting culinary, look

01:23:29.740 no further than American made knives out of French town, Montana at montananifecompany.com

01:23:35.240 and use the code order of man at checkout.

01:23:38.920 All right, guys, those are your marching orders.

01:23:41.320 We'll be back tomorrow for our ask me anything until then go out there, take action and become

01:23:46.060 a man you are meant to be.

01:23:49.980 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

01:23:52.880 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:23:56.700 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

SCOTT PAYNE ｜ Deep Undercover with the World's Toughest Nazis, Biker Gangs, and Drug Lords

Episode Stats

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

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