Self-Talk and Supporting Spouses ｜ ASK ME ANYTHING
Episode Stats
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Summary
In this episode of the Order of Man Podcast, Dwayne and Ryan discuss the importance of being slow to judge, critically think, and make assumptions. They also discuss the power of being a man of action and how to deal with adversity.
Transcript
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and most jobs are more full of doll than otherwise.
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Delays, sidetracks, smoke, dust, cinders and jolts
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and dispersed only occasionally by beautiful vistas
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The trick is to thank the Lord for letting you have the ride.
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Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
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When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time.
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At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,
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I mentioned Ryan's on an Africa hunt with M42 Adventures.
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So we get a run, uh, without Ryan another week.
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And, uh, Ryan pinged Dwayne and said, Hey, Dwayne, you have a great background.
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If you guys are curious what I'm talking about, you can join us on YouTube.
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Dwayne, you, you mentioned that you didn't have a headline.
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I, I, I have not really a headline this week, more of a, I don't know, just the thought,
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And it's, and I read, I read it somewhere and I can't remember where I read it.
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I'm so horrible, but I wrote down my version of it and, and it goes like this.
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It says, if you cannot explain why you believe something, then perhaps you don't even believe
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it, but it's just something that you've chosen to outsource to a tribe that you belong to,
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And that resonated with me primarily just because in society, especially during a political season,
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We get on soapboxes like it's truth, but in essence, it's just regurgitated information
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that you got somewhere else and you actually aren't in the know.
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And so a challenge for me, as I think about this is how many things am I just assuming
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that I read that is truth and I'm not connected close enough to it.
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And we can even start looking at areas, not just in social circles, but you can look from
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And they have an indicator and they go, oh, the problem must be X, Y, Z without asking,
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without digging in, without getting to know, without critical thinking.
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And we just jump to judgments and assumptions all the time.
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And so, I don't know, maybe this is just a call out to be a little bit slow to judge,
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critically think, and realize that information, perception, man, there's so much more to things
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I think that's really important in this season we are in today is to make sure that you're
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I always assume positive intent from both sides, right?
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Like whether you're on the left or the right, or you were in the wrong or something, you know,
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It isn't what we believe that they should be doing.
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But I think if you go into something and assuming a positive intent, then you have a good perspective
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And then you can ask clarifying questions from them.
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Well, and this is the power of taking ownership because that's what ownership kind of is.
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It's, it's not assuming positive intent per se, but it's assuming that the judgment or
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the issue is not over there, but it's probably with you, which kind of implies that positive
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And I had a rant on the socials like last week around this is if we're not, if we're going
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to take on ownership around something, if you can't tell me exactly where you're taking
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responsibility for, you're not taking ownership.
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You're just raising the, uh, the, the flag of, Hey, I'm taking ownership over here.
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But if you can't say, Hey, actually it's this particular area.
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And so make sure you're critically thinking enough to identify the pivot that you would make.
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If you can't say what the pivot is, you're not taking ownership in the grand scheme of
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It reminds me of those leaders that are always like, Oh, I'm such a servant leader.
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And you're like, I don't think you should, you shouldn't have to say it.
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Like we know you're being, you're taking extreme ownership when you're like, Hey, we're going
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And let's actually focus on something that's going to move the needle forward instead of like pointing
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Which is sometimes that martyr approach is just another way of looking good.
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So we're going to field questions from the iron council.
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That's our exclusive brotherhood to learn more about the IC go to order man.com slash iron
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Enrollment's going to open for the iron council.
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So keep in mind that enrollment will open in roughly about a month or so.
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To learn more though, go to that website to find out more.
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I had one question, Dwayne, that you didn't see.
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That's actually from last week that I wanted to cover from the foundry before we get into
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the questions that we asked the men earlier today is by Joe Myers.
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He says, what advice would you give a young man seeking knowledge on how to be a man in a time
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when there are so many contradictory definitions of what being a man is?
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And there are several online influencers saying that they have the answer and the way towards
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I asked not as an attack on the market of men helping men be men, but as a dad that was placed
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Well, he is her ex now, unfortunately, didn't have any male influences in their life until
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Did you say that came from the order of man group?
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Well, I would say that they're on the right path is joining other men in the fight, in
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the battle to kind of bounce that off each other.
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I find a lot of men that are in the iron council have a background where they need to see somebody
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else and like kind of a strong leadership authority position and have a good example of what being
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a man looks like because they might not have had that growing up.
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And a lot of men were kind of wounded by their father figure, wherever that might be, and
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they're looking for just a better example of it.
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So I think that's a good start is to get around other men and identify what they like about it
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and then be able to assess that and say, like, is this what I consider to be a positive trait?
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Or is this something that is, you know, detracting from masculinity overall?
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Be the model for people to see and choose to be, right?
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So Joe, obviously you're a male figure in this boy's life.
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And so the best way to have him seek knowledge on being a man is you and how you're showing up
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And it's interesting, we talk about this sometimes in the iron council where guys will talk about how
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On a battle plan and, and try to show up more powerfully as a husband or whatever.
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And one thing that they'll do is they'll do it silently.
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Like, oh, I'm going to make all these adjustments, but I'm not going to tell my wife what I'm working
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Like, I'm just going to do it and hope that people notice.
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I think in most cases, and we got to be careful here because the flip side of this, you go run
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in your mouth about all the things you're going to do and then you never do them.
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Assuming that we have integrity and we're actually going to follow through on what we're doing.
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Looking for opportunities to express what you're about, what's important to you and not being silent
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So Joe, not only do you need a model, what a man looks like to this young man, but you need to take
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advantage of the opportunities to enlist him in it, to enroll him about what it's like to be a man.
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Look for those little opportunities of, oh, why this is so important.
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And look for those lessons of coaching whenever you can, not from a perspective of, of, of preaching,
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but mostly from a perspective of sharing so he can consider it for himself.
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And I think those, obviously those principles of influence and impact are transcendent beyond
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this conversation of just a young man trying to figure out what it is to be a man.
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Like you mentioned is bringing him along the journey.
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There might be opportunities to go out and have outings and, you know, kind of share those
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Like if you, if you are going to the jujitsu gym offer, right?
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Like see what it's like to live a life in the day of a man that's actually getting after
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And then after you're done, tell him, why do you do it?
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How have your personal views of what it means to protect, provide, and preside change since you
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And I, I just want to call out in case you guys haven't looked at the logo or anything,
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right in the logo, order of man logo, you'll see the words protect, provide, and preside.
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It's obviously a foundation of Ryan's book, you know, sovereignty and another, a number
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And it's things that we use as somewhat of a framework, uh, within the iron council.
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So with that said, uh, Dwayne, what's your thoughts?
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Yeah, those are the three core tenants that we really focus on.
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And I would say that since being in the order of man in the iron council, I've been in for
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I've just gotten a deeper understanding and appreciation for each of those words.
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Like initially it's like, Oh, I want to be, I want to have accountability and be around
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a band of brothers that are working on the same things.
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You could do that in a lot of areas of life, right?
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You could be, um, at work or, you know, any one of your hobbies, but this is more holistic.
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So it's been really interesting on a regular basis.
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We'll go on a monthly basis and we'll have these topics and we'll just dig deeper into
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that meaning and we'll share amongst everybody else, what it looks like for each one of us.
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And I figure that brings those different unique perspectives.
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Obviously we're all men in this, but you have men from all over the world and they're really
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sharing some of their backgrounds and their insights.
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And I've really loved to go deeper into these and, you know, really dissect what it means
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Like not be authoritative and like really demanding, but it's just being there and being that protector
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for your family is kind of like, once you figure out all three of those, they really unlock a
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kind of a next level of masculinity that I love.
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I think for me, I think at first glance, when I looked at protect and provide, I went with
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And to your point, you started getting of providing a spiritual refuge, providing emotional safety,
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And we start looking at these bigger, deeper elements, uh, that makes us actually bigger men.
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And, and, and I agree with you, Dwayne, probably the biggest pivot.
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And, and, and I bring it up primarily just because so many guys get sideways with preside.
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In fact, I met with a men's group, um, up in Ogden, Utah, geez, it's probably been about
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And this was the question, which was talk to about, talk to us about preside.
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Because when we hear that we immediately get on our heels of, oh my gosh, this is command and
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control, this is the patriarchy, you know, in a negative way, it's negative leadership.
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It's all this horrible stuff that they perceive.
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And, and I think what they perceive or what some might hear when they hear that word is
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Well, leadership is not good or bad, but it can be done poorly.
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People in authority often will practice unrighteous dominion.
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That is super, that's part of what it means to be human.
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You know, we have all these quotes around people with authority and power practicing it
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And, and for me, that definition is around guidance and direction, but not control.
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And if, and I would suggest it's guidance and direction in almost all areas.
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It doesn't mean we do all the work, but are we ensuring everything is buttoned up?
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And for me, if I outsource something and I just push it off and I'm not connected to
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it, it actually means I'm also not caring and showing it powerfully.
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But if it's something really important to me, I'm presiding over it.
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It means I'm looking over to make sure that I'm involved, that I'm in the know so I can
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And that's, that was probably one of the bigger definitions that I think some guys struggle
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with, at least when they hear those, those three words.
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It kind of reminds me of what we were talking about earlier of having that extreme ownership
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and kind of the buck stops here with your family or with whatever you're doing is you
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But like you mentioned, you don't necessarily have to be the one doing the thing, but making
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And how many guys are like, you know, not to put you on the spot, Dwayne, but a natural
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tendency that most people will struggle with is like the kids and the household and their
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Like it's kind of like, there's so many memes about how funny it is that you would, how dare
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you ever ask a dad what your kid's schedule is or any of that stuff.
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Not if we genuinely care and we need to level up and make sure that we're showing up in a
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way that's powerful to serve and benefit our, our families.
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And, and I think far too often we've outsourced a great many deal of our responsibilities to
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Like a typical TV dad is a goof and he's absent-minded and he's, you know, doing all sorts of
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I think it's a modern family, like the Phil Dumphy.
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And you're like, that's, that's not like the best way to show up for your family, right?
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Like that's, he's clearly the goofball in his group and it's, you know, working on these
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principles, I think will really change how that happens in your family for sure.
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Jimmy Hellwood, fastest way to get out of the headspace of self-hatred when your mind starts
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Like man, first, first step, the hatred word really stood out to me.
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Like, it's not like, you know, you're having a bad day.
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Like you're definitely what you say to yourself over and over.
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Like the words are powerful, even when you say them to yourself.
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So I would say step one is saying like, I'm a, I'm a child of God.
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Like actually check off all the good things that are happening in your life and then say
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like, oh, there's some stuff that you can focus on for sure.
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But I would say like, definitely get out of the mindset of saying hatred in general.
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Like that's, that's not a good way to treat anybody.
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Like you wouldn't say that to somebody else, probably.
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That's probably the biggest one is look at the, the gain.
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Like look at all the good things that are happening in your life, even if they're small,
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Like they're definitely, we live in the United States.
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We're very blessed, you know, compared to a lot of other people.
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You have your food, you know, you can go to the gym, like start sacking those wins,
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And then you'll start feeling more confident about yourself.
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Everybody has, I have specifically, but it's a mistake and it's something that you're going
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You know, I, I wrote down my thoughts around this when I heard this question, cause I didn't
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want to, man, I just didn't want to miss something.
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Most people walk around pissed off, angry, blaming how they feel on everyone else and
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taking zero accountability for their own, even self-talk.
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So the fact that you've become aware of it, you know, that it's happening.
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I think step number two, have some compassion and, and I'm going to maybe come across a little
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judgmental on you, Jimmy, as a projection of what I do.
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The more judgmental I am on other people increases the judgment that I put on myself.
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So a great way to practice empathy for yourself is to practice empathy period.
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And so look for those areas to have some self-compassion and empathy for everybody, including yourself.
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Then I'd say you should dispute those negative thoughts.
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Some of the times when I'm upset and I'm beating myself up, all I have to do is think through
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And, and some would even say that you should know where that is coming from.
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Now that's a little bit more on the deep work side, but most stories that we have about
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ourself, you've formulated that self-hate story probably years and years and years ago.
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And this is a constant confirmation bias that it's true.
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And so, and, and I want to be really clear, at least Jimmy, I'm not a registered psychiatrist
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and all that jazz, which I love because I get to say whatever I want.
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Whether you think it's true or not, it's a different story.
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But I would suggest that that negative self-talk that you probably formulated, it's, you know,
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So don't beat yourself up even more because the self-talk isn't going away, right?
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Like just realize it's going to come and then let it go.
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And the margin between that natural reaction and the event and the meaning we make gets
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smaller and smaller, but every so often that's not going to go away and don't beat yourself
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up that it's not going away because then you get all sideways around that.
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And then the other thing you alluded to it, Dwayne, practice gratitude, whether that's
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journaling in the morning, whether it's serving people that are less fortunate from you, look
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for those opportunities to find gratitude in your life.
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Me backpacking generates a massive amount of gratitude for me.
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That house looks cleaner than it's ever looked.
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And so look for those areas to generate gratitude.
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Maybe it's just the mental, but maybe it's even physical elements that might really help
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And last thought I had as a resource, because I think it's profound, Jimmy, is the book,
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Those books are spot on around this conversation and the level of poison that your word
00:22:10.460
And we need to be careful with how we use our word.
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Tyler, you need to agree, because if you don't agree, man, we need to debate this.
00:22:30.940
We could cover the book, The Five Disagreements or The Five Dysfunctions of a Team.
00:22:39.760
What are some good ways to assist a spouse who is suffering from postpartum depression
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and has been reluctant to receive professional help and does not recognize the need for it?
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I haven't ever had a spouse that has had a kid, so we don't have children at the moment.
00:23:02.260
So I would say the only thing that I could think of is start helping around the house.
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Like, start seeing where there are other ways you can serve and be there for them, no matter
00:23:16.160
This is definitely for postpartum, but it's also just in other areas.
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When you see somebody that's really stressed out or you see they're struggling with something
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else or has high anxiety, it's like, hey, how can I help you around the house?
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That's that presiding thing that Kip and I were talking about before is like, if you can
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really notice that, just acknowledge that you're there to help out.
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I wouldn't specifically call out the feelings or emotions in case you get them wrong.
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Like that can be a minefield on its own, but just be there and say like, hey, you know,
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How can I serve you and just see what they come up with, whatever that might be.
00:24:02.760
This is one area where I wouldn't communicate all of it, but you would just be there, like
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I mean, I'm reading between the lines a little bit here, but like, I just, I just, I'm just
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imagining Tyler going, hey, honey, you have postpartum depression.
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You need professional help and you don't realize that you're broken, that you need fixed.
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And Tyler, I'm not saying you said that, but for those listening, you just be careful with
00:24:46.140
the label because that label comes up with a tons of meaning and it may not be received
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Focus on the help and focus on what is this depression?
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What things would I be able to do to help you not feel depressed?
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What are these areas that you're, what are you, what are you thinking about all the time?
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Do you just need me to listen, be here for you, get away.
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Do you want me to address some of those concerns?
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Look to build safety physically, emotionally, spiritually, whatever those areas are that are
00:25:43.500
generating a level of uncertainty, I would double down on and focus on serving.
00:25:52.580
Well, one of the things in the question too, was like, they don't recognize it.
00:25:57.140
So just potentially helping them recognize, like you said, and like, if you're not, you
00:26:02.000
know, you don't seem as happy, you know, how, how can, you know, how can I help with that
00:26:06.660
or what, what is making you feel that way in kind of leading them to recognizing some of
00:26:13.000
And it could be just comparison to what it used to be like or something.
00:26:17.720
Well, and you might be wrong, you know, like, trust me, I have had this conversation
00:26:23.760
of, you know, things aren't as good in our relationship.
00:26:28.520
And my wife goes, I thought everything's been going great.
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How have you guys overcome major setbacks on a goal where you're a close to achieving
00:26:54.860
Overcoming major setbacks on a goal that you're a close.
00:27:02.320
I mean, that happens if anybody's taking big swings in life, right?
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Like, you're like, oh man, I want to do this really incredible, cool thing.
00:27:13.380
I feel like a lot of times it's because you had a certain emotional expectation set with
00:27:22.400
You know, if you don't have that and you say like, I'm just along the journey and I'm
00:27:27.020
excited to see what's at the top of the mountain.
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You're like, okay, you got to turn around for safety.
00:27:37.220
The journey, the people I was with, the hiking experience, we were still, you know, we still
00:27:46.920
Whatever that might be, I think is really powerful to focus on all the positive things
00:28:01.300
It's focusing on the 11 to get to that place and who you had to become to get that far.
00:28:07.160
And another thing I always look at is I do like an after action review to say like, what
00:28:14.980
Should have got up, you know, made sure we were on the trail before it got too bright outside.
00:28:19.740
And so we needed more time on the trail because it was a little harder than we thought.
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Let's plan how to go after that goal and attack it again.
00:28:27.460
Because I don't think anybody that set those big goals actually wants to stop.
00:28:38.100
How many times have we seen entrepreneurs or whatever that looks like inventors say like,
00:28:42.320
oh, it was the 10,000 times I failed before I got the light bulb.
00:28:47.760
But really focusing on the journey, I think, is really powerful.
00:28:53.920
I mean, I ran my own consulting firm for, what, 15 years?
00:29:00.940
Or marriage and kids and setbacks on how you think your teenager and your kid's going to
00:29:07.520
show up in the world and they're a pain in the butt.
00:29:13.580
And I love what you said, Dwayne, and I feel that's an important thing to even remember
00:29:20.260
Because sometimes they delay their happiness or they align their happiness to the goal being met.
00:29:34.520
They're good things to ensure that we're improving.
00:29:49.080
And so it's more about who you are being and how you show up than it is really about the outcome itself.
00:29:55.660
And I know that sounds cheesy, but I believe it.
00:29:59.020
I thought of this quote, Dwayne, when I read this question.
00:30:04.540
Maybe it kind of sums up what you said, Dwayne, perfectly, I think.
00:30:07.660
Anyone who imagines that bliss is normal is going to waste a lot of time running around shouting that he has been robbed.
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And most successful marriages require a high degree of mutual tolerance.
00:30:27.740
And most jobs are more full of dull than otherwise.
00:30:34.840
Delays, sidetracks, smoke, dust, cinders, and jolts.
00:30:42.100
Indispersed only occasionally by beautiful vistas and thrilling bursts of speed.
00:30:47.540
The trick is to thank the Lord for letting you have the ride.
00:30:55.060
We probably should have just read that quote and called it.
00:31:01.420
I mean, it's about the journey and how you get there.
00:31:04.780
And then once you have that setback, it's also how you react to it.
00:31:09.860
Could you imagine throwing a tantrum and be like, oh, my God, this is.
00:31:15.420
Like people wouldn't treat you with respect after that.
00:31:20.980
I've won clients because we had issues and it's how I've reacted to that specific thing.
00:31:37.020
Those setbacks are just challenges, opportunities of growth, right?
00:31:40.540
No different than Luke, you busting your tail off in the gym and lifting weights.
00:31:46.300
Those are obstacles, the weights, the obstacle and the way, and your setbacks are just another
00:31:53.080
obstacle, another challenge, another opportunity for growth, right?
00:31:59.780
Andy Mooser, beyond setting the example yourself, what's a good way to support your wife who
00:32:06.380
seems to be struggling with self-improvement herself, even when she said she wants and needs
00:32:12.740
For some context, she specifically has anxiety and ADHD.
00:32:19.160
So he's already said, hey, guys, don't give me the modeling answer.
00:32:24.660
So Andy's like, you know, give me something else.
00:32:35.800
And yes, we started with the modeling, but I do a lot of the work too.
00:32:42.120
So it's not just modeling it, but it's like, hey, we're going for a walk.
00:32:45.620
You're coming with, oh, I don't want to, but you're going to, right?
00:32:51.040
And then it's like, again, like we were talking before, just asking questions, being involved,
00:32:55.400
being engaged, and we're doing something together.
00:32:58.540
So the togetherness of it, I know my wife doesn't love eating like as healthy.
00:33:09.180
And then I'll say like, hey, can you come and help me, you know, cook the bacon in the
00:33:24.440
And you're sitting over there being like, I wish you would eat clean.
00:33:27.020
And you're like, oh, no, this is why kind of explaining it and being like, this is what
00:33:33.060
I want you to be healthy because I want you to live a long time.
00:33:37.000
That's why, that's why it's because I care more than anything else.
00:33:40.840
And that's the conversation that I have at my house.
00:33:46.180
Like it's anything in leadership is you kind of have to keep reiterating that.
00:33:49.860
And then when you see the improvement, really compliment the hell out of it.
00:34:00.580
Or buying or something that's like fun and exciting that gets you going.
00:34:04.300
Like you guys could both go for a walk because you got new trail shoots together.
00:34:08.120
So there's a lot of things you can do together.
00:34:10.380
I think it helps you solidify that bond as a family.
00:34:15.020
Well, and it looks different for all of us, right?
00:34:22.620
In order, man, and our council, we know what self-improvement looks like.
00:34:26.840
But for her, it's probably pick a ball with some friends, right?
00:34:31.380
It's reading different books than what you read.
00:34:34.760
Growth looks drastically different for everybody.
00:34:38.600
And so I would try to maybe eliminate some of the judgment.
00:34:42.340
Don't be too harsh, but also realize the human condition.
00:34:45.720
And the human condition is, I'm not going to react well to Dwayne correcting me.
00:34:55.420
Now, if he thinks I'm the coolest thing ever, and we have a great relationship, and he just
00:35:02.060
understands me, and then I seek out Dwayne's advice, now he's in a position of influence
00:35:09.740
But if all those other things aren't happening, and we're just trying to correct, correct,
00:35:22.960
Well, like you said, supporting them along their journey, too.
00:35:31.280
I'll do, I'll hold down the four, whatever that looks like.
00:35:33.260
But yeah, asking what really gets them excited.
00:35:35.800
And I found that when you ask them questions about what's going on in their life, how can
00:35:42.020
I make that come alive for you, whatever that looks like?
00:35:44.680
And they're more apt to want to do that, as opposed to, you know, nagging them to death
00:35:52.100
And I think something I said earlier, I think is applicable here.
00:35:59.180
So when you read something that was profound, and you really love it, share it.
00:36:03.780
And share it in a way that you're moving and inspiring others about what you're doing
00:36:17.240
And one thing you said, Dwayne, like I think is really valuable.
00:36:21.220
And you just, as an example, Andy, you might find out that she wants to start running or
00:36:42.360
I have no desire to, but I want to be highly supportive.
00:36:55.080
And I was being highly supportive in doing something I had no desire to do, but that's
00:37:04.000
Well, you might need to meet her where she's at.
00:37:07.720
You could do the opposite and say like, Hey, will you come support me?
00:37:14.100
And I got my wife, one of those beach cruisers.
00:37:16.660
So in Arizona, we have a lot of canals, so I'll run the canal and it's very smooth.
00:37:22.900
I was like, Hey, will you come and like time me?
00:37:24.740
Like just kind of like ride next to me at the beginning.
00:37:27.920
It was a little hard because she was like, you ride too slow for this, or you run too
00:37:32.540
And I was like, I was like, that's a pretty slow, but over the time it got faster and she's
00:37:40.140
And it's like good for both of us, but she was out there supporting me because that's what
00:37:44.760
And no, riding on the beach cruiser wasn't a ton of exercise for her, but it got us both
00:37:54.240
I, when I ran my first marathon, I, I trained when I was living in Arizona.
00:37:58.480
And so I ran the canal roads all the time, right?
00:38:01.880
There's like back in the day, there used to be even an app that you could use to calculate
00:38:14.760
Going deeper from your recap, Kip, on the previous all call.
00:38:18.760
So he's talking about, uh, we have an all call, um, an all hands call every Friday.
00:38:23.580
We have actually two of them in the iron council.
00:38:27.520
What do you and the senior leadership see that battle teams can improve on?
00:38:32.580
And what is the chief criticism from new members of the iron council?
00:38:38.080
So I'll let you answer this first, Dwayne, and then, and then I'll chime in.
00:38:41.560
Well, I think from like a senior leadership standpoint and battle team leaders, we can always do a
00:38:47.380
better job of communicating the mission and the vision with everybody.
00:38:50.920
Um, I feel like one thing that we do and it's very easy for a lot of leaders to do is like, well, I said it once.
00:38:59.960
Like you really do need to repeat yourself because there's a lot of times we get 75, 100 new men in the iron council on a regular basis.
00:39:14.620
So I think it's really critical to make sure that we have good onboarding policies and we're making sure that really indoctrinating people and making sure that they feel the mission and the vision of each individual team and the broader iron council.
00:39:28.520
Sometimes we'll get squirreled away and be like, this team's the best team and that team's the best team or whatever.
00:39:33.780
There's a lot of team values, but you can bubble that up and really see how connecting in the iron council.
00:39:39.560
There's a thousand men in the iron council all over the globe.
00:39:43.220
Like we mentioned before, tons of experience in different insights and just making sure that everybody knows that and can access it and actually takes advantage of it.
00:39:53.880
So many people join and they don't take advantage of half of the information that we have or connecting with some of the men that could really change their lives.
00:40:01.900
So I think that's helpful is just making sure that we're comfortable telling the message, but not letting it get stale at the same time.
00:40:10.760
What advice, Dwayne, would you give a team member if they came to you and said, hey, what, what can I do to better the team?
00:40:20.660
I would say the number one thing a team member can do is just care and you care by reaching out and kind of knowing the other men on the team.
00:40:32.300
Knowing what their battle plans look like, knowing what their visions are, knowing their family's name and giving them a call.
00:40:40.740
Just calling them out once in a while and be like, hey, man, I had somebody do that to me today.
00:40:45.320
One of the guys on my team, he was like, hey, I saw you didn't log as many miles last week.
00:40:54.260
But that was something that an individual team member, you can always reach out, provide that feedback to other men on the team.
00:41:03.620
I feel there's a natural order to life, and I think it's transcendent to the Iron Council.
00:41:10.440
I think it's transcendent to our jobs, any type of group that we belong to.
00:41:16.400
And at first, we are part of teams for individual success.
00:41:21.720
And the natural order or the progression towards a life of fulfillment, purpose, and meaning will always be found in the development and growth of others.
00:41:36.700
And so guys on the IC, they join usually for themselves.
00:41:43.540
I'm going to do, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to.
00:41:48.080
So care, like you said, Dwayne, serve the other men on your team.
00:41:56.040
My, I was at, my kids, by the way, I, my kids integrate into my work, intentionally, by the way.
00:42:02.840
I, they come into the office all the time, raid the kitchen, eat a bunch of junk food.
00:42:08.500
They didn't know that there's talkies in the kitchen, so they might even show up at the office more often.
00:42:12.480
But, but they show up here and I love it and I encourage it.
00:42:17.000
And on Friday, I go into the kitchen and there's sticky notes on the fridges.
00:42:28.160
And my daughter's left a note on one of the fridges before, like a little inspirational note.
00:42:32.720
And then I saw two and I thought, oh, she's changed it.
00:42:38.480
And, and so here's some advice from, from Kika for, for Brandon.
00:43:01.220
I like that she had to say that she was your daughter though.
00:43:10.800
He says, Dwayne, what was like jumping ship from your corporate job to your agency?
00:43:20.300
So give us a backstory first, Dwayne, a little bit.
00:43:24.140
I've worked in corporate America for the last 10 years.
00:43:27.180
So I was a web developer and then I moved up the ranks and became a manager.
00:43:36.620
Like that's, that's something that I really had a good skill with is making sure that we
00:43:40.320
could speak business and technical really well.
00:43:45.000
I thought that was a really powerful skill specifically in the corporate world and then
00:43:50.220
And I felt that I hit a glass ceiling or like a ceiling with my job and, you know, the opportunities
00:44:02.080
With, with challenge and opportunity or from compensation, like what, what was the ceiling
00:44:10.080
So at a certain point, the, if you're at a company, there's only one boss, right?
00:44:16.020
You know, it gets fewer and fewer as you get to the top of any, any food chain, if you would.
00:44:23.860
But it wasn't fulfilling at a certain point because it wasn't challenging anymore.
00:44:28.380
So I was, I was really struggling to find my purpose and direction with that.
00:44:34.340
And I guess I'll wait till my boss moves or leaves or quits, you know, and we'll just keep
00:44:38.980
And everybody, all the leadership was saying, oh, you're doing a great job.
00:44:45.220
Same bonuses and everything as people that aren't or whatever, you know, it's just kind
00:44:48.980
of a, a very normal tiered situation for all the management to get bonuses.
00:44:54.040
Everybody just gets the same bonus no matter what.
00:44:57.360
So I took those skills and I translated that into my own agency.
00:45:04.800
So we both actually left our jobs very similarly at the same time and kind of went out on a
00:45:10.500
limb and yeah, it's been a wild ride over the last 12 months.
00:45:18.500
I made way less money this year than I did at my corporate job to people, you know, bringing
00:45:25.560
in good salaries to figuring out where the next paycheck's going to come from.
00:45:37.840
And we're seeing the tangible benefits of us being on board.
00:45:41.760
Whereas before in the, in a corporate organization, it's just like, yeah, we replaced you overnight.
00:45:52.900
They thought, you know, thought I was doing a good job.
00:45:55.160
Everything was great there, but it was just, I was really lacking that fulfillment of like
00:45:59.280
my, my stamp or brand on something and being able to contribute to my fullest.
00:46:03.800
So, yeah, fully expressed all the cards, agency and freedom of what you do.
00:46:15.020
It's been great, but I would say, make sure that you have a skill that you can monetize
00:46:23.200
I know quite a few men that are looking to start the entrepreneurial journey.
00:46:26.780
Kip, you mentioned you've had any, you've had a consulting firm before.
00:46:32.480
Like having a paycheck and some insurance is great.
00:46:35.500
Like don't let the internet guru like romanticize that too much.
00:46:42.360
It's funny that you say that all the time, man.
00:46:52.760
I don't think, I don't think everyone really wants to, or they're not present to the cost.
00:47:07.100
Probably you're probably going to work longer hours than you worked when working for someone.
00:47:14.060
Asia and I, we used to joke around all the time.
00:47:15.940
We're the richest and the poorest people ever because like one month or one quarter, we're
00:47:24.480
And the next quarter, crap, you know, maybe we can't make the mortgage.
00:47:43.980
Get clear on, are you willing to pay the price?
00:47:49.360
Because that's not what, that's not what people tell you on social media that are trying to
00:47:55.520
coach you and, or give you like entrepreneurial, you know, coaching.
00:48:06.180
Well, and I would say that there's an element of like trying to find your sovereignty with
00:48:14.300
Whereas before it's like, I just showed up and dinner was there all the time.
00:48:17.680
Like it was like, like you said, the refrigerator stocked, you get to go in, it's nine to five.
00:48:25.940
And you're like, oh, it's two more days until Monday.
00:48:29.660
You know, it's like, that's totally fine right now.
00:48:32.440
We're going through a season where we know we're putting in the extra, the work and labor
00:48:41.120
You know, we have this big vision for our lives and I know that I can accomplish it here.
00:48:45.760
Whereas, you know, when you're, when you have certain rules and expectations set upon you
00:48:50.480
is like, oh, now if I want to go to Mexico, we're like, we're going to go to Mexico.
00:48:55.740
I don't have somebody to, you know, ask for time off or whatever, because I know that the
00:49:00.260
work I've put in or I'll get the work done while we're there on the plane, whatever that
00:49:05.500
So we're in more control of our day-to-day lives and that's what's, it's been really
00:49:10.940
So I appreciate it, but there are definitely trade-offs for sure.
00:49:15.620
How many, so let's, let's give Drew kind of some few tips.
00:49:19.680
So some more tips, if you don't mind, what did you have to have in place?
00:49:24.880
Like, did you just go cold Turkey, you, you ensured that you had X amount of months of,
00:49:33.700
Did you moonlight first for a period of time before you made that leap?
00:49:38.320
Like what, what, what advice would you have in regards to like, kind of what your story
00:49:44.620
I would advise to have as much savings as possible during those, you know, while you take the
00:49:51.260
Um, mine was more cold Turkey, definitely like left abruptly and was like, all right, I've
00:49:58.260
Um, my wife had put her two weeks in and then I had had it and we're like, all right, well,
00:50:05.600
And that's honestly been the biggest benefit is having something together.
00:50:09.820
Um, our faith has really driven us forward with this is to make sure, you know, like some
00:50:15.720
Um, and for us, God has provided just enough, one more client just to pay the mortgage, keep
00:50:32.060
So I really laughed when it was like, Hey, what are those failures?
00:50:38.080
You just have to put a smile on and move forward.
00:50:43.360
So we definitely had, we had some savings that we dipped into for the first like three
00:50:47.820
months just to get things rolling and figured out.
00:50:50.380
Um, and then really another thing is making sure that you built a solid reputation.
00:50:55.200
My wife had been in the marketing business for a really long time.
00:50:59.500
So I was a technology leader and we just called on our, our friends and our network and people
00:51:08.640
So we really tapped into that because we had a pretty strong reputation already in the
00:51:17.240
We weren't starting something vastly different.
00:51:22.960
And then over deliver, over deliver, over deliver, like over service your clients.
00:51:34.700
They'd be like, Hey, do you want to work with so-and-so?
00:51:38.200
Our latest one was like, why do they charge so little and do it so quickly when everybody
00:51:42.780
else says it's double the cost and takes twice as long?
00:51:48.380
We're not being too, you know, too greedy and we're not trying to say we're bigger than
00:51:54.240
So be humble and do it and do a good job to start.
00:52:00.900
And then you can start to charge more and more as you get more clients.
00:52:10.440
If you meet the scope of the client, that's not good enough.
00:52:23.520
And so we would have a project kickoff, meet with a client.
00:52:27.680
We'd hang up the phone and they would say, all right, based upon what we know, how do
00:52:40.260
Oh, they really wanted this other widget that we're going to charge them for.
00:52:44.300
We wouldn't tell them any of those things because we didn't want them to be part of
00:52:49.180
the expectation and the agreement, but we'd go above and beyond to ensure that they were
00:52:58.160
You got to wow clients because when you're small, you don't have the margin to generate
00:53:05.660
a top of funnel marketing team and all this other stuff, right?
00:53:11.780
The other thing drew that I'd consider is be careful on being rigid with the way you
00:53:19.680
think it's going to look like and be flexible with that.
00:53:25.160
We talk about that quite a bit on the podcast is, you know, minimal viable product, right?
00:53:31.800
Like if we took building a car as a minimal viable product, minimal viable is not half of
00:53:39.420
Like it's a skateboard and then it's a bike, then it's a Geo Metro, right?
00:53:46.380
And then it's a BMW, like address the need, but you might need to address the need a little
00:53:54.500
I coached one individual that wanted to open up a martial arts school and he was so set on
00:54:04.440
I got to build a building and then, and then we'll do what people do with the internet.
00:54:10.820
And then like magically people are just going to start coming to it and I get leads.
00:54:15.520
And he thought the same thing with the building.
00:54:17.200
I'm going to build a building and like people will show up.
00:54:25.980
You start teaching your martial art at a rec center in the area where you want a future
00:54:35.540
You start podcasting, see if your message resonates, that you get a following, that you're
00:54:48.920
And I don't know if I had the balls, Dwayne, to do what you did.
00:54:51.940
And I got laid off actually working for Intel and Micron and it came up with a great severance
00:55:22.980
And by the way, I didn't stop the business because it was not going well.
00:55:28.880
In fact, I sold my book to the firm I work for today.
00:55:32.820
But regardless, my point being is I got in that market not by doing all these things and
00:55:42.220
I went to another firm and said, hey, corp to corp contract with me, with my company name,
00:55:54.700
And I started contracting to other consulting firms with my company.
00:56:07.400
And I started creating momentum through using headhunters and contractors to land my own
00:56:16.460
And literally, I got my notice before my two weeks were up, leaving the company, I already
00:56:22.820
had a contract aligned with the Department of Defense for a six-month contract.
00:56:31.280
Someone else did all the legwork to find that work for me.
00:56:36.480
My point being is it may not look like the way you think it's going to look.
00:56:45.180
Yeah, I could go on and on for days on this one.
00:56:49.240
It doesn't necessarily look like what you think it's going to look like.
00:56:52.540
And it's testing the market just to see, like, is somebody going to want this?
00:56:56.840
Oh, this group of people might not be the right fit.
00:57:00.680
Or you start to change some of those services and kind of tweak what you're offering at different
00:57:06.000
So it just depends on what industry you're in, but always make sure that the demand's
00:57:11.600
I've seen so many times you're like, I've got this brilliant idea.
00:57:13.980
And you're like, yeah, nobody wants that, though.
00:57:17.320
No one's willing to pay you money for your great idea.
00:57:20.200
And not being willing to take the smaller stuff, like start out small.
00:57:25.220
We've gotten a lot of referral business from other larger agencies that are like, ah, this
00:57:32.800
And then we'll grow it into a bigger opportunity for us.
00:57:46.600
And as a wrap up, guys, I mean, really, a call to action here that I want to remind
00:57:53.640
They're going to be doing more of these things.
00:57:58.460
Check out M42adventures.com to learn more about.
00:58:04.360
And actually, even on his gram, he already has been flexing about all these awesome hunts
00:58:11.720
And then the other call out item is on October 1st, Ryan's going to be doing an online course
00:58:18.800
And this is really focused on lessons learned around dealing with that concept divorce.
00:58:25.320
If you're in that space, man, whether it's joining the Iron Council or whether it's getting
00:58:31.360
help or counseling or whatever, I can't, I mean, that could be a really dark time in
00:58:38.100
And so look for resources to help you deal with that.
00:58:42.600
And of course, you can connect with Ryan on Twitter and Instagram at Ryan Mickler.
00:58:46.840
And you can connect with Dwayne Winkle at D-U-A-N-E, W-I-N-K-E-L-J-R on Instagram.
00:58:57.900
And men, until next time, take action and become the men you were meant to be.
00:59:02.280
Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.
00:59:09.620
You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.
00:59:13.660
We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.