Order of Man - SETH AND MELANIE STUDLEY ｜ The Anatomy of Marriage

00:00:00.020 Some of the most common questions we receive, and this has been consistent over the past eight years, is how to make a marriage work.

00:00:07.240 And with the breakdown of my own marriage over the past year, it's clear to me more than ever how hard the union between two people can be.

00:00:14.880 But that doesn't mean it's impossible, and it doesn't mean it isn't worth pursuing.

00:00:19.000 The benefits of marriage are plenty, including shared responsibilities, the fulfillment found in service to another, and the growth that has to take place in order for a marriage to work.

00:00:28.480 Today, I'm joined by Seth and Melanie Studley, who focus on helping couples work through their marital challenges and create a thriving relationship.

00:00:38.060 Today, we talk about getting back to the basics, the growth versus fixed mindset in a marriage, why men must learn to cast vision, common mistakes in marriage, how to recognize the tests of women, which often happen, and so much more.

00:00:52.560 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:58.460 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:01:02.940 You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, or strong.

00:01:08.000 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become.

00:01:12.240 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:17.180 Men, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler. I'm the host and the founder of the Order of Man Podcast and Movement.

00:01:23.080 Really looking forward to getting this conversation to you today because this is on a topic that so many men are struggling with,

00:01:29.920 with the breakdown of my own marriage over the past year.

00:01:34.180 That has been a challenge, but I've had so many, I mean countless at this point,

00:01:38.960 so many conversations and messages and emails from men who are in struggling relationships, struggling marriages,

00:01:45.820 separations, divorces, and this is a, this is a growing trend.

00:01:50.060 Not only is it growing in that marriages are falling apart and crumbling,

00:01:54.440 but it's also a growing trend that more and more young people aren't even getting married.

00:01:59.220 And I still think it's a worthy pursuit and I know many men do as well.

00:02:02.820 And so if you are going to engage in marriage or you're currently married,

00:02:07.180 then making sure that you have all the tools at your disposal to make the marriage work is crucial.

00:02:11.800 So I'm going to talk with my good friends, Seth and Melanie Studley today about that.

00:02:16.060 Before I do, I just want to say thank you for tuning in, for listening to the podcast,

00:02:19.920 and for banding with us, for applying the information, for sharing it.

00:02:25.200 And if you've gotten any value over the past eight years or any time therein from what we're doing,

00:02:30.220 please consider subscribing to our podcast.

00:02:33.660 Consider joining our brotherhood, the iron council,

00:02:37.400 consider supporting us through our store at store.orderofman.com and help us get the word out.

00:02:43.660 That's it. That's all I got for you. Support what we're doing.

00:02:45.560 If you believe in what we're doing and you've gotten any value out of it,

00:02:48.220 any little bit goes a very long way.

00:02:50.220 Guys, with all of that said, let me introduce you to my guests.

00:02:53.380 Again, I said, good friends. I've been on their show, their podcast a couple of times.

00:02:56.800 The Anatomy of Us is their podcast. I hunted with Seth about a month or so ago in Hawaii,

00:03:02.900 and we've gotten to know both Seth and Melanie really well. And I can tell you,

00:03:07.340 these are great people, qualified people, and have got great information to share.

00:03:11.940 So Seth is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and his wife Melanie is a marriage

00:03:17.280 expert and motivational speaker. And they're changing the face of relationship advice with

00:03:21.360 their podcast. Like I said, Anatomy of Us, it's so unique. It's so different. It's so real.

00:03:26.240 And that's what I really like most about it. They draw from their hard work, one journey of

00:03:31.460 transformation and healing. We talk a little bit about their challenges in marriage, including

00:03:37.360 physical abuse. Seth and Melanie are dedicated to providing the resources they wish they had 13

00:03:43.320 years ago when Melanie gave Seth a black eye. And we talk about that in this conversation,

00:03:48.560 but with a candid and really authentic teaching approach, they blend practical and strategic

00:03:54.160 relationship insights to empower their listeners and coaching clients. But their mission is really

00:03:59.660 to help couples worldwide build the enriching and gratifying relationships that they truly deserve

00:04:06.220 and desire. Seth and Melanie. Hey, it's so good to see you guys. Thanks for joining me today.

00:04:12.260 It's awesome to be here. Thank you for having us.

00:04:14.300 Yeah. I think this is our three Pete. Now I've been, or is this twice? I can't,

00:04:18.040 I've been on your show once, maybe twice. You've been on it twice, twice, twice. Okay.

00:04:22.520 So I figured, fine, I'll return the favor and have you guys on my show. And we'll, you know,

00:04:26.780 no, actually it's more than that. Cause the conversations you guys are having specifically

00:04:31.560 around relationships and marriage are something that I think are so instrumental for guys. I,

00:04:36.140 we do an ask me anything for our podcast every week. And one of the questions that we got last week

00:04:41.400 was why is there so many relationship or marriage or women questions in our Facebook group? And it's

00:04:47.820 a testament to the work that you're doing with regards to how challenging relationships can be,

00:04:52.680 but also how important they are to men. So I'm really glad you guys are here.

00:04:56.560 Yeah. Right on, man. Thank you so much. Uh, it's like, we, we went back and forth,

00:05:00.380 back and forth. We finally made this happen. And, uh, so super excited, super stoked to be out today.

00:05:05.280 This is like my favorite thing to talk about too. So I'm pumped for this conversation.

00:05:08.960 Well, I think what I like most about what you guys do is you don't come from this perfect,

00:05:13.380 you know, world and everything's always been bliss. I know a little bit about your story,

00:05:18.340 but tell me a little bit about your guys's marriage, the highs, the lows, and then also

00:05:23.360 how you got to this point where you are right now, coaching and consulting with other people

00:05:26.960 on what they can do in their relationships. Yeah. So first of all, we've been married for,

00:05:31.120 it'd be 19 years next month, actually. And we have three kids and I'm also a licensed marriage

00:05:37.000 and family therapist and have been in private practice for about 15 years. So in, in the

00:05:42.360 marriage space, that's what I do as a profession, as a career. And of course that impacts our marriage,

00:05:46.960 but we early on in our marriage, right after the birth of our second kid, we literally went

00:05:52.860 through hell. Melanie, we had an argument and there was just a lot of stuff boiling over.

00:05:57.060 There was some postpartum stuff and she gave me a black eye. And for like anybody in a relationship,

00:06:01.700 it's like, you don't get with someone to be like, yeah, you know, we'll probably duke it out one day

00:06:07.000 and go from there. But it's like Mike Tyson, you know, you, you, you always have a plan until you

00:06:12.200 get punched in the face, you know, and then like everything goes out the wind, out the window.

00:06:15.660 So I'm sitting there with a black guy and I'm like, what the F is going on? I'm a, I'm a therapist.

00:06:19.700 Like we're in church, we're trying to do everything right. And then that just was our absolute

00:06:25.460 rock bottom. And then we just stopped. We had to build from there, but it was about two years

00:06:30.540 of pure hell that we hated each other, wanting to get a divorce. There was all kinds of stuff going

00:06:35.900 on, but we, we stuck through it. Yeah. And during that time we were looking for resources. Cause

00:06:40.060 again, like Seth said, he was, he had gotten his master's in marriage and family therapy.

00:06:43.800 So he was a master's holding therapist when he had confessed that he had been lying to me and

00:06:49.740 looking at pornography, but nothing crazy, like literally nothing crazy compared to what most people go

00:06:53.380 through in their relationships. And I lost my mind. I punched him in the face. Like we had two

00:06:58.140 years of absolute hell. And as we were looking for resources, the books that we kept finding,

00:07:02.920 the podcasts we kept finding were like, number one, vanilla. They were so boring. They were never

00:07:09.140 like real. It wasn't ever a real thing you were working through. It was like these theoretical

00:07:12.420 couples who might have a problem. They were so boring. And it was almost like they were built on the

00:07:16.980 foundation and the premise that you definitely really loved your partner. But I was like, Oh no,

00:07:21.040 I definitely really hate him. And I don't want to look at his face, but I want to make this work.

00:07:25.380 Cause I knew a few things. I knew I didn't want to break up my family. We had little kids. Our,

00:07:30.320 our, this happened when our second son was two weeks old. And I was like, well, I don't want to

00:07:34.800 do this alone. Like my kids are in diapers. I don't know what to do. I didn't want to break up my

00:07:38.100 family. And also he's my best friend. So like, I got to figure this out. Cause I want to figure

00:07:42.080 this out for this guy, but I like low key hate him. And so when we were going through all of this,

00:07:47.160 trying to find resources and we, I mean, against the, the, um, guesses of all of our friends,

00:07:52.280 we actually didn't get a divorce in that season. We totally thought we would. They all thought we

00:07:55.600 would. And once we got out of the like hard, hard, hard part of it, we turned around and we went,

00:07:59.980 okay, we got to do something to help other couples like us. Cause we know there are other couples like

00:08:03.960 us. And that was the genesis of the podcast. And that turned into coaching and all the stuff that

00:08:08.860 we do now, but it was, it was full blown messy for a real long time. Yeah. Well, I, I commend,

00:08:14.120 I have to say, I commend you Melanie for even in the midst of having that struggle and feeling that

00:08:20.200 way of wanting to stick through it. One thing that I hear a lot from the guys is, I don't know if this

00:08:25.640 is true or not. You guys can tell me, but anecdotally, and this might just be because I

00:08:28.620 deal primarily with men is that I would say I'd be willing to bet. Well, I know this is a statistic

00:08:34.580 that women initiate divorce more than men. And I'd be willing to bet that men seem like generally

00:08:40.660 speaking and broadly speaking are more interested in situations like this in keeping relationships

00:08:46.020 together versus women. Is that accurate in your assessment? And my follow-up question to that

00:08:53.080 is that if a woman's no longer interested, when do you pack up shop as a man? And when do you try to

00:08:59.660 work together to make this marriage work, even though she may not be interested in it?

00:09:04.340 Yeah. So you answer that and I have some straight up just what we actually did.

00:09:08.500 Right. Oh yeah. That's a great point. So yes, I agree. I think women are more likely to have

00:09:13.660 like under the, what would the word be? Sort of like behind the scenes, been contemplating leaving

00:09:18.460 for a long time. They'll have talked to other people about it. It'll be like this thing that's

00:09:22.060 kind of hidden or whatever. And again, from what we've seen with clients, men are typically the ones

00:09:26.880 who reach out to us. Men are the ones who want to coach with us. It's not their wives.

00:09:30.860 Now in the therapy world, I have far more female clients who bring their husbands to like counseling

00:09:37.500 and stuff like that. Like the coaching world is different from therapy world. Cause coaching is

00:09:41.920 like, Hey, okay. I, yeah. The touchy feely, whatever therapy stuff is fine, but we're in

00:09:46.240 there. We're going to kick some ass and like call you on your stuff. So there's more men

00:09:49.340 that reach out for coaching than women. Yeah. And coaching is probably,

00:09:54.560 I was going to say, it's probably different, but it's also probably a marketing thing too.

00:09:58.740 Like when a man here is coaching, it's like coaching, grab life by the balls, get, you know,

00:10:03.000 getting stuff done. Like I'm assertive. I'm, I'm, I'm making it happen. Therapy's like,

00:10:07.920 I got to sit on this couch with this person and I'm really uncomfortable. And I have to talk about

00:10:12.300 really uncomfortable things. And they're not high performance things. They're things that I'm

00:10:16.780 personally struggling with that I would not like to air out in front of strangers. So I imagine there's

00:10:22.180 the perception of what coaching is versus therapy as well.

00:10:26.400 Yeah. Well, and it's real. That is the difference. Like one of the things that I tell my clients,

00:10:30.380 so therapy has its place. Think of it like physical therapy. If you break your ankle,

00:10:34.320 you go to physical therapy so you can just walk. But if you want to win the race, you get a coach.

00:10:39.700 So you can win. You can stand on that platform and have that gold medal. So when we work with clients,

00:10:44.940 one of the things that frustrates me to no end, and I love therapists, I'm married to one,

00:10:49.340 is that they just want to talk to you about your problems. I don't want to talk to you about your

00:10:52.780 problems. I want to hear what your problem is. And then I want to work towards a solution.

00:10:55.920 And we're going to systematize this so that you can have success. So that's like the primary for me,

00:10:59.760 the difference between coaching and counseling is that I'm not just here to like gab about what's

00:11:04.200 wrong and what you screw up every week. Let's make a system for the success moving forward.

00:11:08.880 So back to your question about the women initiating divorce, which that's a true statistic. When we

00:11:14.640 were going through the two years of hell, I would literally get texts and Melanie would say,

00:11:18.860 I am divorcing you. I want a divorce. And I would just simply not like a douchebag say,

00:11:24.260 no, we're not doing that. We're not getting a divorce. Right. And of course,

00:11:28.380 I just didn't leave it at that. It was okay. We're not getting a divorce. We're going to go

00:11:32.960 to therapy. We're going to read these books. We're going to talk to people. We're going to have a

00:11:36.620 trusted friends around us. And then, so that was the time where I had to put up or shut up. Right.

00:11:43.820 And the resistance, um, uh, Steven Pressfield talks about like the resistance, whenever you're doing

00:11:49.360 anything awesome, there's going to be resistance. And, and I'll tell you the resistance from her

00:11:53.760 because she was coming from a place of hurt was crazy. So it was like, you know, whenever you get

00:11:59.040 on a roller coaster, you know, and that bar comes down, what do you do? You grab it and shake it.

00:12:03.380 Right. You're like, okay, this thing isn't going anywhere. So now I can trust it to go upside down

00:12:07.560 in a hundred miles an hour. Right. But if you got on that roller coaster and the thing went up,

00:12:11.340 you'd be like, I'm getting off. I'm not, I'm not riding this thing. That's what Melanie was doing.

00:12:16.540 And I think that's where a lot of, uh, coaching and especially therapy falls short. It doesn't

00:12:22.320 call the men up to task. It's like your wife, if you guys have a terrible marriage and you screwed

00:12:27.420 up, right. And your wife is going to push back and resist and stuff like that. Do not take that as,

00:12:33.700 Oh, she's just making life too hard. Now, of course there's a, there's a breaking, there's a fine,

00:12:37.380 there's a fine line between that, but she had to push back on me to say, to, to satisfy that the,

00:12:44.220 the, just the, the feminine urge and like, can I trust this guy? Can I follow him? Can I be with

00:12:50.020 him? And she put me through hell for a long time, but again, it wasn't like, Oh, I'm just kind of

00:12:55.940 like taking all the shit that she's given me just because it was like, okay, I understand it. I

00:13:00.220 understood that process. It's like, yeah, this is how we're going to, how we're going to do it.

00:13:03.920 But like Melanie said, there is a fine line between, I mean, she didn't cheat or like, you know,

00:13:08.460 rack up tens of thousands of dollars of credit card stuff, nothing crazy like that. It was just like,

00:13:12.980 we were arguing all the time and that was her pushing back. Can I trust the dude? Can I trust

00:13:17.700 this dude? Can I follow this dude? Can I trust him? Can I trust him? Can I trust him? And then

00:13:21.320 finally she figured out, yeah, I can. And then that's when we started to heal, but I do want to

00:13:25.960 say something. Actually, before you get any further in that, and here's how I've heard it is that,

00:13:31.780 and Melanie, maybe you can speak more to this or, or correct me if I'm wrong, is that I've heard it

00:13:37.940 framed as testing to ensure like not, not necessarily it's a test. Right. And I don't

00:13:44.360 even think it's a conscious to, I don't think women are like, I'm going to test him to see if

00:13:48.760 he passes my test. I don't think that's the case, but I think even maybe biologically, they're like,

00:13:53.760 all right, is this a man who can stand on his own two feet? Is this a man who is going to carry

00:13:58.000 through with what he says? Cause maybe for 10 years up to this point, he actually hasn't.

00:14:02.340 So I need to make sure this changes is real or not. But my question with that is how does a man

00:14:08.300 know when it's testing? Cause I think a woman who's in this position and I experienced some of

00:14:14.060 this will say things that might be interpreted as testing, or it might be that, no, they're not

00:14:19.660 actually testing. Like this is how they feel and they're out. And how do you interpret where things

00:14:25.160 are? Right. I think you bring up a really great question. I think for, for, in our scenario,

00:14:29.200 I want to bring up two points. I was testing Seth for the sole purpose. It's going to sound

00:14:33.600 terrible. You're exactly right. Like evolutionary biology in me was going, if this piece of crap

00:14:39.740 doesn't protect me when I'm at my worst, he's never going to protect me when I'm at my best.

00:14:43.700 And I'm going to test him right now. Like I'm actually going to test him by being mean to him,

00:14:47.060 which is the wrong thing to do. On purpose? You would do that on purpose? Yes. I would be like,

00:14:51.840 let's see. And then part of that too, listen, I've grown a lot in the last several years. Part of it too

00:14:57.420 was like, Oh, and if we get a divorce, I can point at him. I can say it was his fault. I'm

00:15:02.460 going to make him so mad at me that he's going to do the ugly thing. And I will look like the victim.

00:15:06.220 So here, I was very bad about that and it was unkind and it was wrong. And I was doing that.

00:15:11.680 So, but hold on before I forget. So then the other side of that is how do you know if the wife is

00:15:15.640 testing you or she's just like straight up, I'm out. It's because when Seth started to change,

00:15:20.320 I reciprocated, he started to make movement and growth. And he, I don't know if we've ever talked about

00:15:25.700 what he did. Um, so when we, we had this kind of like line in the sand moment where Seth was like,

00:15:31.200 we're not getting a divorce and here's what we're going to do. We're going to pray every single day,

00:15:34.400 six times a day for as long as it takes. And that was essentially Seth casting a vision,

00:15:38.640 like where I'm going to fix this, like him saying, I messed this up. I am going to fix it. And I'm

00:15:43.580 going to prove to you. So every day he would call me six times a day. Sometimes I wouldn't even say

00:15:48.400 hello. I would like cuss him out and hang up, but he would still do it. And so he proved to me that he

00:15:54.240 was serious, that I didn't need to hold his hand, that he could do it without having a, you know,

00:15:58.460 like me mother him or, you know, what is the word like complain? And what do they always say? Like

00:16:04.400 a wife is a net, like nag him. Right. So he showed up and then guess what I did. This is the proof

00:16:09.980 that I was actually in it. I then showed up cause he showed up, he led and I started to follow.

00:16:15.280 But why did, why did you do that specifically with the prayer six times? And I don't care if it's

00:16:19.680 prayer six times a day or just calling six times a day. Cause that could also be interpreted as

00:16:23.960 obnoxious and needy and overbearing and trying to manipulate the situation or coerce you into

00:16:29.460 believing a certain way. And I think a lot of men probably do that. I've done that. Um, and I think

00:16:34.780 that would be exhausting to a lot of women who are on the brink of wanting to move along in a

00:16:39.840 relationship. I think it was for the, like in this case, it was like the first time he really saw me

00:16:45.340 like it, he shut down. He didn't coerce. He didn't try to bargain or do whatever. He literally

00:16:51.740 actually saw me and he went, okay, I see where I've screwed up. I'm going to own that.

00:16:57.400 Now I'm going to pave a path to do this different. Are you with me? And I would, I would literally be

00:17:01.980 like, F you go in a hole and die. And he'd be like, okay, well, I'm still walking this path.

00:17:06.660 And if you're, if you're, if you're with me, you don't leave. Right. And so there's, it's again,

00:17:10.640 it's a very fine line. So I don't want any men to interpret this as like, you can just boss your

00:17:14.440 wife into following you again. Cause it doesn't work that way.

00:17:16.680 No, it's not that weird coercion manipulation thing. I mean, that's a whole nother thing.

00:17:21.880 Guys, if you're doing that, cut that shit out. Cause that's, it's not right. Right.

00:17:25.460 But I don't think I want to come back to that. Cause I don't think most men recognize they're

00:17:29.380 doing it. I didn't. Right. Right. So like I, my ex-wife would say, Oh, or whether she said it or

00:17:35.280 not, I think she felt like it was me, a manipulation tactic to keep her around. And I didn't feel like it

00:17:41.720 was looking back on it. Now I can see. So I would say what you wanted to say, but I also want to

00:17:46.440 revisit the idea of how do you know if you're manipulating or if you're truly on a better

00:17:51.020 path. So go ahead. Sorry. I just wanted to, no, no, that's a great point. So in, in therapy,

00:17:55.400 we talk about differentiation, right? And the, the basic definition of differentiated a differentiated

00:18:01.200 person is like, Oh, I am happy. I am content. I am whatever with or without you, no matter what

00:18:08.080 you do or don't do. Right. So I come from a, Hey, I try to be like top, top level dude in all kinds

00:18:14.340 of stuff, no matter like, Oh, you don't like that. Oh no, I can't do it now. Just sit and feel sorry

00:18:19.060 for myself. Right. So I was coming at it from a differentiated, differentiated point of view. And

00:18:24.720 the best analogy I can think of is say that I'm an entrepreneur, which we are, and we have like

00:18:30.500 the clearest clarity vision of what we want to build in the business. Right. You say, here's my

00:18:35.940 vision. I am, you know, Jocko willing, extreme ownership of everything. This is where we're going.

00:18:41.660 This is what I want to do. Are you with me? Okay. Melanie. Uh, well, yes. Okay. You're with

00:18:47.280 me. Here's what I commit to every single day to get here. And I'm not going to be like, Hey,

00:18:52.660 you're not praying with me. What's wrong with you? I'm so sad. Well, she, she didn't answer the phone.

00:18:56.800 So I'm just going to screw it. I'm not, I'll be mad at her now. So an entrepreneur doesn't do that.

00:19:01.180 Right. Like, like with order, man, you had a vision, you cast a vision and you stuck, you stick to

00:19:05.860 that vision every single day. No matter if Joe Schmo over here saying, Hey Ryan, you know,

00:19:09.800 order, man sucks or this or that you're like, whatever you're, you're still going to go forward

00:19:14.200 with that. Right. So I had to take that mindset in the marriage. It's like, we are not getting a

00:19:19.100 divorce. And that wasn't, again, it's not like a douchebag manipulative kind of thing. Neither one

00:19:24.060 of us in our heart of hearts did not want a divorce. Right. We didn't come from divorced families.

00:19:29.480 We're like, no, we don't want that now. Divorce is fine in circumstances that I'm not saying that it's

00:19:34.340 wrong, but for us, we both didn't want that. And I knew it. So I was like, okay, how can I take

00:19:39.180 the most appropriate leadership role around this while seeing her not being manipulative,

00:19:45.480 not being a douchebag, but sticking to my word, no matter what she brings, hell or high water,

00:19:51.040 I'm, I'm going this way. And then that was a vision that she was like, Oh, he's for real.

00:19:55.340 I can follow that. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. It makes me think of like a leader in an

00:19:59.500 army, like the person, like the, I don't know, what is the leader of an army that goes and plows like a

00:20:04.300 new path and all the other people are like, this idiot's going to get us killed. And the leader's

00:20:08.360 like, no, I have to do this. I know my mission. And then eventually the people in the back are like,

00:20:13.120 Oh, he's not going to get us killed. He does know what he's doing. Like it's a trust building

00:20:16.620 practice. If that makes sense. Again, fine line, go to counseling, get coaching.

00:20:22.480 Yeah. I mean, it's hard. Cause I, and you, you guys said, you know, in your heart of hearts,

00:20:26.600 you didn't want a divorce. I don't think anybody does, but I think there comes a point in time for

00:20:29.980 both men and women where even though they don't want that, they feel like that's the only path forward.

00:20:34.540 Yep. And I'm not sure exactly why that is. You know, if you think about, and look, I'm looking

00:20:43.040 at it through a pretty raw lens of my own personal life going through a divorce. And we've taught,

00:20:48.240 you and I have talked offline about that. It's hard because I, at some point you loved each other,

00:20:56.280 like at some point it worked out. Right. And then to see it so muddied and clouded,

00:21:01.260 but then to know that it could be back on the right path, if both of you are willing to work

00:21:05.240 on it. But the hardest thing is when one party is in one party, isn't that's the most challenging

00:21:09.240 thing. But I like what you're saying though. This makes sense because regardless of the outcome,

00:21:13.660 you're still on a better path. And there was one point when Melanie, and this was probably about

00:21:19.840 a year and a half. She was still, I mean, there was a lot of growth over a year and a half,

00:21:24.460 but there was still this resistance pushing, pushing, pushing. And there was one point,

00:21:28.640 and I remember it very, very clearly. I was, I was kind of like pissed, not, not pissed,

00:21:34.500 but I was like, Hey, listen, we're, this is, we can't do this. I was like, if you continue to do

00:21:39.320 this, I swear to God, I will divorce you. That is it. This will happen. And that was coming from,

00:21:45.660 I mean, I was pissed. I was frustrated, but also looking at the landscape of like,

00:21:49.860 okay, enough's enough. This is time to grow. We're, we, I called, well, we both call each other

00:21:55.480 higher all the time, but that was like a calling up of like, Hey, this, this ends, you know, we've

00:22:01.320 been going the wrong way down the freeway for a year and a half. We're stopping the car. We're

00:22:05.760 turning it around and going this way. If not, we're going to be in separate cars, but I want you with

00:22:10.840 me kind of thing. Right. And she responded to that. And that is when we, and here's the key to all of

00:22:16.060 this. The point when we stopped looking at one another, I'm like, you're this, you're that you make

00:22:22.600 me this, blah, blah, blah, everything. When we stopped that and go and looked inside and said,

00:22:28.320 Oh, wait a minute. I'm the cause of these problems. And she said the same thing to herself.

00:22:33.340 Then we looked at each other differently and go, Oh, wait a minute. We're on the same team.

00:22:38.160 And that was where like personal ownership, that's where like it really shifted for us. Would you agree?

00:22:44.200 Oh, absolutely. And I think one thing I want to really point out is that nobody talks about,

00:22:48.640 talks about this stuff and teaches you how to do it. So like grace all over this, because nobody

00:22:53.680 says, Hey, when you marry someone from a different background or who's had, you know, abuse in their

00:22:58.140 life or who has had neglect in their life, you are taking not only two people's family of origin and

00:23:03.480 trying to merge these two crazy different, you know, families of origin. You're also taking two

00:23:07.660 nervous systems and trying to merge them together. You're taking like, I'm going to use us as an

00:23:11.420 example. Seth is from South Carolina. He is a redneck, they frog gig that his brother used to ride

00:23:16.680 bulls like redneck, right? I am from Seattle. When Seth met me, I had a shaved head. I have

00:23:22.280 tattoos everywhere. I'm a Seattle person through and through. He is a redneck through and through.

00:23:25.860 These are very different cultures. So number one, you're trying to merge a culture, right? Even if

00:23:29.580 you're from the same town, this is a different, you have a culture of your family, a culture of

00:23:33.080 whatever you're trying to merge that. And then on top of that, you're trying to merge. Like

00:23:36.620 I responded really weirdly to his body being okay with his body. Cause he grew up where it's hot.

00:23:42.200 You swim. People are almost naked all the time in Seattle. It's too cold to be in your

00:23:46.560 bathing suit ever. So like even just those little things that hardly matter are sort of like a

00:23:52.320 little, um, a tiny peek into how complex it is to do relationship with someone else and then to

00:23:58.760 have it last over time. So, so Ryan, it is a lot harder than people make it sound. And I don't want

00:24:04.100 you to feel like, Oh, if I had just done this or anyone who puts that upon themselves is kind of

00:24:09.680 forgetting what we are not taught, if that makes sense. And that's part of our mission and what we do.

00:24:14.380 We don't think that divorce is bad. We don't say, Oh, you need to stay married. And that's

00:24:18.760 the primary, whatever. Uh, that's not our goal. Health is our goal. Always, always, always. If

00:24:23.680 that makes sense. Yeah, that does make sense. And I want to talk about maybe some of the pitfalls.

00:24:28.500 Cause when you say things like, um, well, what you just said about like, Oh, if I would have only

00:24:32.260 done this, there is truth to that, right? There's for guys and gals who could have maybe done

00:24:37.200 something different that would allow the marriage to go down a different path. I do want to get there.

00:24:40.820 I also want to talk about something that maybe is obviously I'm sure a little bit more sensitive

00:24:44.960 for you guys is this episode when you, when you hit Seth. So Seth, I wanted to ask you like in that

00:24:52.240 moment and these aren't comfortable questions, but they're good to have, uh, like, like your,

00:24:57.940 your sense of masculinity. Like, did you feel emasculated in that moment? And then like, how does,

00:25:03.900 how, what is the path to forgiveness for that look like? Cause I mean, there's infidelity issues that

00:25:09.940 we hear about you guys. It doesn't sound like infidelity, unless you would account the pornography,

00:25:13.420 which some people define it differently, but it doesn't sound like there was a fidelity issue.

00:25:18.460 But I know that there's a lot of men who listen to the podcast that have some forgiving to do and

00:25:23.160 some grace to offer, even though they may not feel like they need to, or want to, what was that path

00:25:28.580 like for you? That's a great question. Like the, the story, and I remember it very distinctly

00:25:34.880 because I came home from work one day and we'd, you know, argue over the phone and I went outside

00:25:39.960 and something happened. And then she, she tried to like kick me in the balls. Right. Well, you

00:25:45.060 tried, you tried to hug, you were like trying, he, so we argued all the time. That's all I did was

00:25:49.400 argue every day, all day. And he was coming home from work and he was like trying to be kind and hug me.

00:25:55.000 And I just was like, don't hug me. Don't hug me. And then like, she, she tried to kick me in the nuts.

00:25:59.400 I blocked it. And then wasn't even expecting then just a literal mean right hook, just right in the

00:26:06.080 eyeball. Like the kind that makes your eye bleed, you know? So like support around the big black guy

00:26:10.300 and then have a thing. And like, first of all, it's shocking. I'm like, what the F did that,

00:26:15.280 did that just happen? And then I just remember like walking away, sitting on steps and just like

00:26:20.200 not believing that that actually happened. Right. And then, so I wasn't mad. I wasn't anything.

00:26:27.220 Just how, how did our marriage get to this point right here? Right. So you could say it was a low

00:26:33.140 time. And then I wasn't like, how dare you hit me? You know, don't you respect. I didn't feel any of

00:26:40.120 that. I felt, wait a minute. That is a lot of stuff that built up in her stuff that she needs to work on

00:26:48.060 and take accountability for. And also stuff that's, I probably put her through, right. Cause we weren't

00:26:55.300 in a good position. So forgiveness was easier. I would, I would say in that, because like I knew

00:27:03.180 how hard I made it for her and, you know, forgiveness is like, and then I guess we're,

00:27:10.400 we could get into different territory around forgiveness, but it's like, it's kind of like

00:27:14.980 Jordan, Jordan Peterson says, like, if you're, if you're holding onto something, like if you're

00:27:19.140 holding onto conflict, like conflict avoided is conflict multiplied. Right. So if you're holding

00:27:23.600 onto something that you just like, you know what, we're trying to reconcile here, but

00:27:28.180 have I truly forgiven that person? You're going to see them different. You're going to talk to them

00:27:32.960 different. You're going to think about them differently. And in turn, that's going to make

00:27:36.680 you feel different too. You know? So it's almost like, I need to clear this up. It's like, I need

00:27:43.060 to get all the fog off of my binoculars or something. Otherwise I'm not going to see what I'm

00:27:47.920 trying to see as clearly as I can. Right. So, so for me, we talked about prayer, we're Christian,

00:27:53.900 right? So it's like, yeah, we need to be called to forgive, right? Because we've been forgiven

00:27:58.840 and stuff, but it was just like, okay, I can't hold onto that. And knowing what I know about

00:28:06.420 psychology and therapy and all this stuff, I can't hold onto that while trying to build what I want to

00:28:12.740 build at the same time. You know, it's like, I want to let go of this in order to get to this step

00:28:17.780 to build that. I want to comment on this too, because I think there was a moment that I wish

00:28:22.240 more women could see in that interchange. And this was years of time. This wasn't just like a week.

00:28:27.040 This was like over the span of probably five years. Right. So in the initial burst, I punched

00:28:32.020 him in the face. That wasn't my plan, by the way, that was a outpouring of me having zero awareness

00:28:37.620 of my nervous system and self-control and no conflict resolution skills. Cause I did not see

00:28:42.720 conflict in my home at all, ever, ever. Right. So I never saw conflict. Didn't know what that

00:28:47.580 looked like. Didn't know how to do it. And so I had to, um, figure out what to do with the fact

00:28:52.760 that I had punched my husband in the face. Right. So I had to sort that out in my own mind,

00:28:56.600 but I was too angry to know or care. Um, and then that process is again, where I wish more women

00:29:02.400 could see this and men, if you're listening and your wives don't listen to this show, normally share

00:29:06.680 this with your wives just so they can hear this part, because this was the reason probably primarily

00:29:12.480 that I didn't leave. I wanted him to leave me. I wanted to make him look like the bad guy.

00:29:16.980 But when he actually said, this was years after the event itself happened, when he broke down and said,

00:29:23.820 I like, I cannot believe you punched me in the face. I can't like, that was so, it was such a, um,

00:29:32.100 what are the words that you would use for that? It wasn't, he wasn't afraid of me physically. Like

00:29:35.440 he's even said, he's like, I wasn't like afraid of you. You can't really hurt me. But there was this,

00:29:39.840 like a breaking of something. What would it be? Trust? Would it be even just like kindness,

00:29:45.220 like the kindness factor of me just like literally punching you in the face. And when you shared with

00:29:50.600 me how much that hurt you, it changed how I saw Seth, because I had this idea in my mind that men

00:29:57.320 are hard. Men don't cry. They don't have feelings. They're a-holes and they don't really care.

00:30:03.020 That's what I learned growing up. Men are stoic. They're strong that you can never make a man cry.

00:30:07.820 That's what I knew in my own father. So the fact that one day he was like, I'm heartbroken that you

00:30:14.040 did this. And now this is not Seth's nature, you know, Seth's not like heartbroken at things,

00:30:17.780 but he actually took the time to tell me and it changed everything. And that was around the time

00:30:23.400 when he was like, Hey, if you don't change, I'm leaving you. Like I cannot be treated like this.

00:30:27.120 I deserve more than what you're giving me wife. Right. And it was like the first time in my life

00:30:33.180 that I had thought that Seth had feelings. That's interesting. I like that. You're also

00:30:38.020 talking about the boundaries that he's not imposing necessarily, but the boundaries that

00:30:42.440 he's erecting at that point, because when you first said that, you know, I also think there's

00:30:46.920 a line, like maybe a woman wants to see a different side of you or, or to be, or, or to know how you

00:30:53.900 truly feel like the trust to be there. But also you can't, as a man, be a blabbering idiot all the

00:30:59.140 time and, you know, crying and complaining about everything that's wrong in your life.

00:31:03.660 So I think the difference, you guys correct me if I'm wrong, is that you shared that, but you also

00:31:08.280 with that shared, and this is why I'm erecting this boundary, which is appealing because if you

00:31:15.560 can't have something, you want it. Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And listen, I think

00:31:21.500 this is where all of relationship advice have done disservice to men is that it's a primarily done by

00:31:27.260 women. So women want men to talk and think like women. And then once they do, they don't like

00:31:32.620 them. That's what I was going to say. They want that until they get it. And then they don't like

00:31:36.660 it. Yes. And it took me years to understand that. And then now that's like one of my primary

00:31:42.480 missions in all of the content we make, the resources that we make, the coaching that we do

00:31:46.780 is like women are, are absolutely shooting themselves in the foot by like making it a requirement

00:31:54.240 that men think like them. What bullshit. Sorry for my French, but that is so stupid. Men are half

00:32:00.340 the equation. Let's not pretend that they're not. And let's not make it this weird, like feminist

00:32:05.140 manifesto that men ought to think like women. And then there'll be good. No, then there'll be useless.

00:32:11.020 They won't be a man or a woman. There'll be neither. And I don't want that. And that's not

00:32:15.500 attractive. That's not safe. That's not appealing to you as a woman. But again, Seth had to show me,

00:32:21.140 like, I have feelings and this is how I show them. I don't show them like you show them.

00:32:25.700 So I get passionate about it. I can tell it's, it's good though. This is what we need.

00:32:31.020 So Seth, in, in that moment, it sounds like that was years later when you, when you finally talked

00:32:35.820 about how that experience made you feel, was that the time, was that, was it at that point where you,

00:32:40.560 you said, but I can't, you know, or here's what I need, or here's what, here's my boundary and what

00:32:46.540 would cause me to leave. Was that, was that the same conversation or was that a separate

00:32:50.320 conversation down the road or what did that look like? I think that, that was, that was the line

00:32:55.840 in the sand that, that allowed other conversations to happen. Like, Hey, this, this sucks. I'm showing

00:33:03.620 up. We're not doing this anymore. I'm choosing this. If you choose to do this. And then, and then it's

00:33:10.580 just like a new iteration of conversations all the time. Cause we're always learning something,

00:33:14.520 right? You know, growth versus fixed mindset. It's like, we both have growth mindsets. And it's like,

00:33:19.320 when I said that, that allowed her to see some of her behavior. And then I just didn't stop at that.

00:33:26.380 It's like, okay, now you go fix yourself. It's like, I continue to read books, do coaching,

00:33:31.120 listen to podcasts, all this growth mindset stuff. And so instead of us being, Oh, well,

00:33:38.100 this is how it has to be, or this is how it has to be, you know, kind of one-sided. We started

00:33:42.940 creating a shared vision. That's what we talk about often in coaching and in the power couple planner

00:33:47.520 is what is the shared vision for your marriage? Like we know where we've been and all the stuff

00:33:53.060 we've gone through. We don't want to repeat that. We want to repeat certain things, you know,

00:33:56.700 the good times and stuff like that. But what is the shared vision that we both can work on?

00:34:00.740 I'm responsible for this, your response for that. And this is how we can be intentional

00:34:05.440 around these things. But like, does, does that make sense?

00:34:09.220 Yeah. I think once, I think it took us really seeing our disunity to finally begin creating

00:34:15.100 unity. And it was a course of months that these conversations happened. It was like

00:34:18.760 one bad conversation. Then he, him saying, I will divorce you. Then him saying, I can't believe

00:34:23.900 you punched me in the face. It was like, we spent the time, we did our due diligence talking about all

00:34:29.080 of these things and trying to be really complex and careful about it. Because again, we had a vision in

00:34:34.440 mind. But I think too often when, and the, hear me say this women and men, if this is you don't

00:34:41.880 take it wrong, but like too often women think that they are right in marriage and that it's not

00:34:48.700 something that they need to like co do. They just go, Nope, my feelings trump yours. I'm a woman.

00:34:53.600 I'm better at it. You're dumb. And so they create a foundation where the man has like no say in how

00:34:59.120 stuff changes and grows and works. And I think that that is a terrible place to be. But as you can

00:35:04.320 see from our story, it's a very hard place to get out of and to make a new pattern in, you know?

00:35:09.820 And I think for, for, for guys and women, listen, but primarily guys, it's like, okay,

00:35:15.820 so what's, what's the takeaway? Where's the value at or whatever here? It's like our relationship

00:35:21.200 changed. Our individual lives changed when we decided to stop looking at the other person,

00:35:27.140 or if you're not married, when you stop looking at what your outer circumstances and you begin to go,

00:35:32.640 Oh, wait a minute. My life right now is the sum of all the decisions I've made. And I haven't made

00:35:38.020 right. How I've reacted or responded either way, hopefully responding. We are responding and not

00:35:43.580 reacting more. And the moment that that happened, I'll go back to it is when things started to change.

00:35:49.540 Now it ended up that we stayed together, right? It could have ended up that we both decided like,

00:35:55.800 Hey, well, this, this actually isn't working out. Right. Luckily that wasn't the case.

00:36:00.960 Um, so neither one is like better than the other ones, but the real, I think crux of this is, Hey,

00:36:08.060 I need to stay the course. I need to do what I need to do. Regardless of what she does or doesn't

00:36:13.660 do to create the life that I said I wanted that I would give her and the kids or whatnot. And,

00:36:19.240 and stick to that. What Ed Milet talks about, you know, we build self-confidence by keeping the

00:36:23.940 promises we make to ourself. I promised myself that I would pray. I didn't promise her. Hey,

00:36:29.260 Billy, I'm going to pray six times a day. So you'll love me again. You know, no, I was like,

00:36:34.080 okay, Seth, everything you've done up until this point, all the book knowledge of licensed marriage

00:36:39.820 and family therapy, all the stuff you've listened to, all the things you've read, everything has not

00:36:44.340 worked. So again, back to the being Christian part, I was like, okay, God, I can't do this.

00:36:49.780 I need you. The only thing I knew to do was to pray. And I also thought, okay, if she is tripping

00:36:55.960 balls about like me praying, then she is clearly wrong with me. Right. So we need to define tripping

00:37:02.880 balls, whatever, whatever that means. I think we need to prefer for all of us. She's having a hard

00:37:10.200 time. I like tripping balls better. That's way better. Right. So she's tripping balls about me

00:37:17.940 praying. I know at least that thing is right. So that was my North star, my, my like, okay, that I

00:37:24.180 can't mess with that. At least in my belief system, that is correct. Right. That is. And if

00:37:28.280 she is saying that that is wrong, then I know without a shadow of a doubt that she has the

00:37:33.840 problem, right? Okay. Well, okay. You're messed up B, you know, I'm not going to listen to it. No,

00:37:37.920 it's like, okay, I'm going to let you deal with that. But I knew I promised myself that I would do

00:37:42.500 that. And then I built, built self self-confidence every time she called and said, or I called her and

00:37:47.620 she said, thank you. You know, that was great. Or she says F you and hung up. I'm like, Hey,

00:37:51.060 doesn't matter. I did it. So I am, I am differentiated from the outcome around it,

00:37:55.360 which was super helpful too. Guys, I'm just going to step away from the conversation very

00:38:00.140 quickly in his book, the war of art. Steven Pressfield introduces us to the concept of

00:38:04.660 resistance that gets in the way of the results that we desire. And I found this phenomenon of

00:38:11.880 resistance to be so true in my own personal life from unexpected major expenses. As soon as I pay off

00:38:18.700 debt to an injury, as I'm finally on the path to consistent physical health improvement,

00:38:23.000 uh, to a response to a global pandemic, uh, that shuts down the economy. When my business is firing

00:38:29.660 on all cylinders, it's going to happen. It's not really a question of if something will derail you,

00:38:34.640 but when, and if you don't have a plan to deal with it, it's going to knock you off your feet.

00:38:39.760 And that's why it's so crucial that you develop a plan to not only account for setbacks,

00:38:44.720 but keep you on that path that you desire. And that's where our free battle ready program

00:38:49.420 comes into play. And when you get signed up, you're going to receive access to 17 emails that

00:38:55.540 are going to walk you through everything you need to know with how to deal with the resistance of

00:39:00.740 life. So again, that's a free program. And if you had to order a man.com slash battle ready,

00:39:06.360 you can get signed up again, order a man.com slash battle ready, learn how to fight that resistance

00:39:12.000 effectively order a man.com slash battle ready. All right, guys, let me get back to it with

00:39:16.480 Seth and Melanie. I've got a friend, his name's Keith Yaki. He's been on the podcast and we've

00:39:22.980 talked a little bit of quite a bit about this actually. Um, and he talks about the energy of

00:39:26.860 doing things and why you're doing things. So for example, we'll use prayer. If you're praying for

00:39:31.880 yourself, that's a different energy than praying with like one eye open, hoping Melanie walks by at just

00:39:37.960 the right moment, seeing you pray, right? You're in both scenarios, you're doing the same thing,

00:39:43.140 right? And it could be the same as a gift. Like maybe you get her a gift that, you know,

00:39:47.960 she really likes, well, why are you doing it? So you can get laid. That's different energy than

00:39:52.200 because I care about you. And I know this would add value to your life. And ironically doing it for

00:39:58.520 the right reason is what gets you laid. It's not that you want to get laid and you're doing it for that

00:40:03.940 reason. So it's the energy behind it. You're not doing it for her. You're doing it for you.

00:40:10.340 The natural result is that she responds to that. And yeah. And that goes circles back around to kind

00:40:15.320 of what you were asking earlier, where it's like, well, why, why would I accept him praying for me

00:40:19.440 every day and not feel like it was like a manipulation is it's that energy. It was,

00:40:23.340 he was not praying with one eye open. He was literally like, Melanie is going to treat me like

00:40:28.120 garbage and I'm still going to show up. I'm still going to show up. And that was the sort of

00:40:31.820 the piece that shifted my energy was seeing that like authentic version of him in it.

00:40:37.720 And I want to say something that might be helpful for people to like an image that keeps coming into

00:40:42.320 my mind as we're talking is that Seth and I stated outrightly, like when we were like in the very,

00:40:48.260 very early stages of going through all of this, that we were willing to fight.

00:40:51.260 Now that didn't mean that I always showed up with a good attitude, obviously, but I said,

00:40:55.540 I'm willing to fight for this. I don't want to get a divorce. Now, the next day I would have said

00:40:59.600 things like you're a piece of shit. I do want to get divorced, but I had stated,

00:41:03.260 I actually don't want to get divorced. This is my goal. And so in a way I think of like Lord of

00:41:07.940 the Rings, like Frodo vibes, like they're out looking at what's that mountain Mordor. And they're

00:41:13.120 like, I got to go climb up that thing. Like, I know I have to do that. And at some real level,

00:41:18.240 Seth and I knew when we like to get on the other side of where we are right now, it takes that big

00:41:25.020 of a challenge and we're both up for it. Now I had a pissy attitude most of the way he did not.

00:41:30.040 And I followed him, but that's the sort of, um, the sort of the energy I think of as I approach

00:41:35.260 this and think of how to reshare it, uh, in a more practical sense. It's like, you have to decide

00:41:40.460 I'm willing to climb up and like be attacked by some weird goblins and stuff and like still

00:41:45.480 fight. I'm willing to do that. Even if I can. I think there's, there's a level of sustainability in

00:41:51.000 that behavior too. Right. Cause some, cause I know for me, when I was going through this with

00:41:55.600 my ex, like there was a lot of new behavior that I wanted to incorporate in my life, mainly staying

00:42:00.140 sober. If I was doing that purely for a, a desired response from her and I wasn't getting that

00:42:07.700 response, that behavior would have been short lived. Right. But if I'm doing it for the right

00:42:13.600 reason, which is my own internal gain and growth. And if she's on board with that, great. I can sustain

00:42:19.460 that indefinitely because the motive behind it is for the right reason, not for the reason,

00:42:24.100 the response of some external circumstance beyond my control. And that, and I know that you see this,

00:42:30.700 I see this all the time. So many guys, we'll just speak to the guys here. They do it for the wrong

00:42:37.900 reasons. And then they feel deserving because, Hey, I'm, I'm showing up, you know, not cause I want to

00:42:45.480 show up. Like if I was just a bachelor doing nothing, I don't know who cares. I wouldn't do

00:42:49.660 that thing anyway. Hey, I'm showing up. Shouldn't I get a pat on the back or something? And then when

00:42:54.260 they don't get that pat on the back, that acknowledgement, so many people go, well, see,

00:43:01.000 who cares? Didn't work anyway. And then they go back to whatever. And like, how, how backwards

00:43:06.440 is that? Like, I mean, in fact, that's what, that's what we were doing before we kind of woke up.

00:43:13.140 Right. And that's like playing the victim in that benefits. No one ever, any type of victim

00:43:19.980 mentality benefits. No one, you mostly the person that's doing it. So it's like all kinds of guys.

00:43:26.300 And I see this all the time, like with coaching or, or different clients that I see, uh, you know,

00:43:31.340 couples come in, they start making some changes. We talk about things that they have identified that

00:43:36.120 they want to change. They do it just like drinking. It's like, okay, I'll, I'm, you know,

00:43:40.000 I've been sober for two weeks and she's still a bitch or, or, you know, I've been, been sober for

00:43:44.820 a month and, uh, you know, I don't have 10,000 savings yet. Well, okay. I guess that was the

00:43:50.000 wrong choice. No. Are you kidding me? Like anything worth doing takes discipline, takes consistency,

00:43:56.480 and you have to separate yourself from it because what is actually worth it? It's like, okay, we're,

00:44:03.480 we're both doing 75 hard right now. It's like my fifth time, but we're on day, I think 36 right now.

00:44:08.200 So who are we doing it for? Am I doing it? Like, Hey, Melanie, check out this six pack or,

00:44:13.120 you know, don't you, don't you like me? Don't you notice me? Yeah. Notice me.

00:44:18.620 Notice me. See, right. Oh, what? You're not, you don't like it. Um, okay. I'm, I'm done. You know,

00:44:24.480 I'm gonna go drink beer and like eat, you know, sugar or whatever. That would be for the complete

00:44:28.680 incorrect, wrong reasons. And I want guys to think about, okay, what are we doing? If we're doing

00:44:34.820 anything in our lives for that reason, you're doing it for the wrong reason. And mainly in

00:44:39.480 your relationships, like you have to put your own line in the sand. What kind of man, husband,

00:44:44.200 father, dad, business owner, whatever human do I want to be for me? Not for Melanie, not for

00:44:50.980 all this stuff. Now people benefit from it. Like I benefit because Melanie is doing 75 hard right now.

00:44:56.840 It's great. We're fit. We'll live longer. It's fun, right? Our kids are benefiting from it

00:45:00.580 because they see it and we're being that example for them. Now, are we doing it for those reasons?

00:45:06.140 No, those are, those are just by-products of doing something good and kicking ass in our own lives.

00:45:12.040 But like, how good does it feel? Like, yeah, day 76 nailed it. Feels amazing, right? You can't buy

00:45:18.800 that. The only way that you can do it is, is do it yourself. Like with our marriage, it's like,

00:45:23.700 yeah, we worked and sweated and cried and bled and all this stuff. And now we have that. Okay. Now it

00:45:29.720 doesn't mean we're up here now. No problems. No, we've like 2022 was terrible for us, right? Like

00:45:36.260 counseling. We're leveling up. And this is the thing I want to say. It's like this,

00:45:40.840 this stuff takes work. It's hard. You need a backbone. You need to fight for it. And you need

00:45:45.440 to know if you want to fight for it. And there were times in all honesty that I told Seth,

00:45:50.300 then this was recently, like in the last few years, like, Hey, if you don't change, I'm not doing

00:45:55.700 this anymore. Like I will stay on this course of my own personal growth and do what's right right

00:46:00.940 here. But that was a sign that he needed healing. And again, it's this like tearing up and it's

00:46:05.200 almost like a ladder. Like when I tear up, Seth has to then tear up. And when he tears up, I have

00:46:10.880 to tear up. That's how it works. And so often what happens in couples is that one person tears up and

00:46:15.760 the other person's like, why'd you leave? Why'd you leave me down here? And the person who teared up

00:46:19.940 is like, can you join me? And they're like, no, you're supposed to stay down here. I met you when we

00:46:24.560 were down here. We're supposed to stay down here. And that's where it's like backbone people like

00:46:28.620 work hard for this stuff. There is nothing more important in life than like showing up for yourself,

00:46:32.980 showing up for your marriage and your kids and whatever that looks like. But if, if your partner

00:46:36.540 is saying, nope, stand down here, the devil I know is better than the devil. I don't, I want to stay

00:46:41.100 down here. I'm not learning. I'm not growing. I'm not like, you don't want that life forever.

00:46:45.020 I didn't want that life forever. And so again, Seth and I just, we've had hundreds and hundreds of

00:46:50.100 these conversations. We have over 500 episodes of us talking to each other about how

00:46:54.540 we want to level up. So this work is not easy, but it's the best work I've ever done for myself

00:46:59.040 and our kids and all of that. So it's a long, but I also think, yeah, no, it's good. I also think

00:47:03.660 with regards to that leveling up and I really liked that that's important because it's better for

00:47:07.960 everybody when you guys elevate yourselves. But one thing I, at least look, I'm trying to say this

00:47:14.680 the best way that I can, I'll say it this way. There are a lot of, a lot of women and men that I talk

00:47:19.260 with and have conversations with, I run across scenarios where a woman is thinking they're

00:47:25.260 asking a man for something and they're actually not. Like if you listen to the verbiage, you listen

00:47:31.080 to what they're saying, you listen to how they're communicating. I believe that they think they're

00:47:36.380 telling their man what they want, but they're not actually effectively communicating that with their,

00:47:42.040 their husbands agree or disagree. Oh, agree. 100%. And it drives me up the wall. And this is something

00:47:49.560 that we talk about with coaching clients. Listen, you're going to love this. So not only did we make

00:47:53.520 the power couple planner, I made the power couple planner. It's a planner for couples to have success,

00:47:57.720 but I also made for ourselves the power list that hangs on our refrigerator because of that exact

00:48:04.100 thing. So on here I have it. It says, how do I feel seen, secure, safe, heard, loved, respected?

00:48:09.880 He gets to fill out one side. I get to fill out one side. Cause guess what? Women will say things

00:48:14.160 like this. I wish you noticed me. What the hell does that mean? Right. Of course your spouse notices

00:48:20.140 you. Do they have to say it? Like, do they have to say it in a song? What, what do you mean?

00:48:24.360 Well, he should just know. He should just know. That's the most offensive thing. I think women say

00:48:29.800 all the time. Well, if you knew you would, whatever, no, we're not playing mind games.

00:48:33.960 If you truly love me, then, then. Ooh, yeah, that's a good one.

00:48:36.820 You would have ESP, right? You'd be a psychic. If you truly love me, you would know this by now.

00:48:42.680 Yeah. There's a million examples of that. And it's like, this is where, again, I'm going to say

00:48:46.760 very gendered women often do this. He should know. And if I wish he noticed me, I wish he'd,

00:48:52.480 so we had a client recently say something like, I wish that he would just spend more time with me.

00:48:57.040 What the hell does that mean? We spend hours and hours together a day because we work from home.

00:49:02.440 Is that time? That might count for him. But do you mean time at the park? Do you mean time in bed?

00:49:07.720 Do you mean time talking on the couch? What do you mean? And if you can't tell me what you mean,

00:49:11.980 you can't ask for it. You cannot ask these like, like just fog questions of, or statements. Well,

00:49:18.880 I wish you loved me. What does that mean? Like the, it's not acceptable.

00:49:22.800 That would be like saying, uh, Hey, Melanie, or how about this? Like Ryan, you know,

00:49:27.300 we're hanging out in Hawaii and stuff. Hey, Ryan, I'm hungry. Well, what does that mean?

00:49:33.360 Well, I've been here before. We could go get this, this, or this, or this, but it's me like

00:49:38.300 expecting that you should know exactly what I want. Oh, he wants a steak medium rare with a baked

00:49:43.420 potato loaded on the side. Oh, okay. Or another scenario with that is you say, I'm hungry. I'm

00:49:49.340 like, cool. Let me go get you a burger. I get you a burger. And you're like, well, I didn't want a

00:49:51.820 hamburger. Yep. Right. You are setting. Why don't you care about me? It's like, well, right. You

00:49:56.380 said you're hungry. I fulfilled. I gave you a burger. Now you're not hungry anymore. Well,

00:50:00.700 I didn't want that. I wanted pizza today. Yeah. Clarity is kindness. And if you can't be clear,

00:50:05.520 that means you don't know. And when wives will say, I will, I wish he just respected me. You make me a

00:50:10.640 list of what respecting you means and see if he'll do those. That's a whole different ballgame. And most

00:50:16.320 women don't even know themselves well enough to do that. Men are guilty of this too, but yeah,

00:50:20.940 there's a lot of clarity. Can I just add one disclaimer or a little clarifier on that? You

00:50:25.740 say you make me a list and if, if he's not willing to do that, then you don't know. I don't think

00:50:30.900 you're saying this, but I think that could be interpreted as if he's just not willing to do

00:50:35.640 on his own. I think that mealish ought to be communicated. And I know you believe that. I just

00:50:40.920 want to make sure people know, like if you make this list, it's not a list in your head. Like,

00:50:45.360 Oh, he did it good. No, like actually show him the damn list so he can do it. Yeah. I can. I read,

00:50:50.240 I'm going to read you some of the ones that are on our list because they're funny. Like that's

00:50:53.000 part of what makes it funny. But like, so for my side, for Seth to make me feel seen one of the

00:50:58.000 it's the very first one on the list. You're going to love this one. It's to cook batches of meat and

00:51:03.200 have them in the fridge. You heard what I just said. And so he would have never thought about that.

00:51:12.240 That would have never crossed his mind. That's my, my wife loves it when there's like turkey in the

00:51:16.100 fridge. Why would he ever think? So what, what, what is the, uh, the, the, the meaning below the

00:51:21.120 meeting, like the thing below the thing. We talk about this all the time in coaching. So, okay.

00:51:24.740 When I Melanie feels seen, if I take the initiative to cook batches of meat, so this can mean like

00:51:31.120 brown Turkey or some deer steak or whatever, just in the fridge, ready to go. Right. So if I can pay

00:51:37.320 attention to that, like, you know, she gets kind of like hangry sometimes, you know, so, uh, and just

00:51:43.120 like, she's always working. So if it's easy, grab it and go, it's protein. It's sustainable.

00:51:48.080 She feels, Oh, this guy is taking care of one of my basic needs. And that feels loving. Right. I mean,

00:51:55.720 even if you have like friend relationships, Oh, this dude knows that I like, uh, you know, uh,

00:52:01.340 a wingstop gift card for my birthday. This is a men's show. No, this is a men's show.

00:52:06.860 None of that Seattle coffee lingo. I thought you said wing stuff. I was like, what is that?

00:52:14.200 You know, a chicken wing gift card for my birthday. Right. You know, so it's simple stuff

00:52:19.780 like that. So the meaning, the thing below the thing, it's not just like, Oh, here's the meat

00:52:23.960 you wanted. Yeah. It's not, it's not that. And yeah, I'm going to say some of Seth's too, because

00:52:28.800 again, this is where it's, I think it's really exciting for couples to have this clarity. So he feels

00:52:33.340 seen when I acknowledge like the work he's done, like actively acknowledge it. Don't just see it

00:52:38.900 in my head, but say, thank you for doing that. I see that you like our kid is learning how to drive.

00:52:43.820 Thank you for taking him to drive around the neighborhood. Thank you. Another one is like,

00:52:47.300 uh, on here. I actually didn't see this until like two days ago. He feels, no, I did. I just,

00:52:53.160 I like glossed over it and didn't really notice it. But it said when I am attuned and present and I'm

00:52:57.820 not multitasking, I love to multitask. He doesn't like how it feels. So it's literally written.

00:53:03.340 And this thing hangs on our fridge so that we have tactical strategic ways that we can show and

00:53:10.200 express our love and care for one another every single day. And it's a reminder. It's like a cheat

00:53:15.560 sheet. But again, if you don't know these things about yourself, it takes some real thought to be

00:53:20.960 like, what makes me feel loved by my husband? I know cook Turkey. That actually takes thought.

00:53:28.640 I was going to say most of us would never get even, even listening to this. If you say, Hey,

00:53:33.020 what, what could your wife do to make you feel more loved right now? I think most of us would

00:53:37.280 have a really hard time answering that question. I don't know. Maybe if she cooked dinner for me

00:53:41.840 or had sex with me more often, I mean, those are low hanging fruit, but yeah, I think a lot of guys

00:53:48.600 would have a hard time answering that question. So that's why it's good that you're doing these

00:53:51.500 exercises. So Melanie created this power list and she filled hers out like, you know, one second after

00:53:57.460 she printed the form and it took me like three weeks. Like I had to sit with it and like, think

00:54:02.320 about it. Like, Oh, wait a minute. You know, looking back on all of our relationship, when do I feel

00:54:06.780 seen, heard, loved, respected? Like, what are the actual things? Why do you think that was hard for

00:54:12.600 you? Like what, what was so challenging about that for you? Because I think that guys don't like that

00:54:18.740 stuff in general. We just want to get shit done. And this is coming from a therapist. Like,

00:54:23.400 like I advocate for therapy. Sure. Go, go, go be in therapy if you need to, but that doesn't mean

00:54:29.500 it's easy. And it, it, it took me like, we're like, okay, provide, go make money, do all this

00:54:34.500 stuff. And it's easy to be in our heads guys, especially for me. It's like, yep, I can be in

00:54:39.440 my head all day. It's harder to be in my heart, you know? And so I had to really kind of like get

00:54:46.060 quiet, you know, chill out, think about this stuff and be reflective of, Oh, what's really important

00:54:52.460 to me? You know, Oh, we'll just make money and, you know, be a good dad. Well, no, like what's,

00:54:56.660 what's really, really important to me. Like I feel respected when she acknowledges when I come home

00:55:03.000 or something and not like a, you know, balloons and confetti cans or anything like that. And she's

00:55:06.640 like, Hey babe, how was your day? You know, with a hug, you know, you talk about love language,

00:55:10.280 like, okay, what are, what are your love language? Mine's physical touch and like words of affirmation.

00:55:14.380 You know, even that took me a minute to figure out and like, Oh, what do I really care about?

00:55:18.020 And I think guys, it's much more, I say this to guys all the time. I would rather walk

00:55:23.920 barefoot in a blizzard carrying like 500 pounds, you know, on glass than like talk about

00:55:30.920 feelings and stuff with my wife. Right. But guys take, take this to heart. Your wife wants to know

00:55:39.840 that part of you almost more than anything else. Right. They want to know because when they know like

00:55:46.560 deep stuff like that, what do they feel? They feel safe. They feel secure and they feel like,

00:55:52.740 okay, I can, I can be with this dude. Right. So guys, if you're having a hard time with that,

00:55:57.280 like, Oh, I don't want to be talking about that touchy feely bullshit. Okay. You don't have to

00:56:01.140 with like other dudes and this and that, and all this stuff, but with the person that you're closest

00:56:06.480 with your girlfriend or your wife, you owe her that. And I'm not saying like, Oh, tip for tat kind of

00:56:13.160 thing. But like, that's one of the most important things for her. Like, think about like the most

00:56:18.000 important thing for you as a dude, as a guy. What if your wife was like, nah, not going to do that.

00:56:23.260 That's stupid. Right. You'd be like, well, that doesn't feel nice.

00:56:27.760 And listen, women do that to men all the time.

00:56:30.160 I was just going to say, but no, it's good. Like, that's like, she wants to give that to you.

00:56:34.980 And, and for women, women are listening. He wants to give that to you.

00:56:38.160 Right. I think, I think the words of affirmation, I tend to be the same as you words of affirmation,

00:56:43.180 physical touch, very high for, for me as well. Um, I have a hard time admitting physical touch.

00:56:48.800 I have no, I don't have a challenge admitting that I like physical touch. Like that, that's not an

00:56:53.440 issue. Most guys I imagine do, but words of affirmation was a hard is hard one for me to admit

00:56:58.880 because I, I like it. It's very closely linked with validation. Right. And we're taught constantly

00:57:09.960 like, oh, you don't do things for validation. You don't do things to seek validation. You should

00:57:13.600 just do them. We talked about it in this conversation. You do it just because it's the

00:57:17.180 right thing to do. But words of affirmation are so closely related to validation that they get

00:57:22.960 intertwined. And it's like, wait, I'm not supposed to thrive on words of affirmation. I'm a man.

00:57:27.600 I'm supposed to just do the work regardless of if I get noticed or recognized or not.

00:57:32.080 Right. I want to speak directly to that. We've been tapping each other behind the scenes.

00:57:36.320 It's my turn. It's my turn. I know. I'm wondering how you got, you guys, I'm like,

00:57:39.740 have they just done, you know, you did 500 episodes or you guys are like punching each

00:57:43.080 other under the table where we tap sometimes. It's hard in live settings when people can see it.

00:57:49.660 You can't quite do it there. But, um, one thing I want to, I want to use this. Um,

00:57:53.900 cause you just use the word you said, I'm not supposed to like want words.

00:57:57.600 That stood out to me. So I'm going to use this example. Correct me if I'm using the wrong names.

00:58:02.520 I'm thinking of the movie 300 and isn't it King Leonidas? That's the main guy. What's his wife's

00:58:08.000 name? Something. Queen Leonidas. Queen Leonidas. Um, it makes me think of them. Have you seen that

00:58:15.280 movie? Yeah, of course. So I only really remember, I mean, I don't remember like the details of it,

00:58:20.080 but I think of how she talks about him. That is what men want. She talks about, what does she call

00:58:26.100 my King? Doesn't she talk, call him that? So there is something biologically wired in us in men

00:58:32.580 specifically to want to be seen as a King. And if you're a queen, you don't mind it because your

00:58:38.560 King's going to protect you. Your King's going to help pay for your bills and help you get your nails

00:58:42.400 done and help you feed your kids. And if you're a queen, you're okay with that. And you are okay.

00:58:47.340 And now part of me is this meat saying this to myself because I grew up in a home. I love my

00:58:52.080 parents, but my mother tears my dad apart. He can do nothing right. Right. So I don't have a model

00:58:58.720 of this being my King and knowing how to talk to him as a King. But when I hear you talk about it,

00:59:04.600 it helps me see it in Seth and it helps me go, Oh shit, I am not doing right. I am not showing it up,

00:59:10.120 but like showing up enough for that part of him. Because if I show up for that, he'll show up for me.

00:59:15.540 And it's this beautiful reciprocal circle that I think we're actually wired to be.

00:59:20.600 It's like a feedback loop. Like Ryan, what you were saying, we're not supposed to want

00:59:24.660 affirmation or anything like that, but guys like you, like myself and like your listeners,

00:59:31.240 we want to do right. Like they're listening to the show right now because they want to improve.

00:59:36.260 They want to level up. They want to do better than where they were or where they currently are.

00:59:40.280 We need feedback on that. Like there's a feedback loop. So, okay, I'm doing right. I'm doing right

00:59:47.260 for all the right reasons. Not to hear Melanie say, Hey, good job. I'm thankful for you. Okay. Yes.

00:59:52.100 That's amazing to hear, but we need that feedback just like a dude at a job or something. They need

00:59:57.740 the boss to be like, Hey man, good job on that. You nailed it. Right. Is that what we're looking

01:00:02.640 for? Is that why we're at work trying to get a paycheck? No, but it's an indicator of we're going the

01:00:08.040 right way. It's like a GPS, you know, it's like, okay, walking around, walking around.

01:00:12.540 We need that feedback. Hey, you've been walking the wrong way for two miles to turn around.

01:00:16.360 Okay. That's feedback that we need. Or you're, you're a hundred yards from your, you know,

01:00:21.080 meetup point. Okay. Keep on going. Right. So the words of affirmation, I don't want to put it like,

01:00:27.120 Oh, we shouldn't need this. It's like, it's vital. Like, especially for guys and women too,

01:00:32.040 who are wanting to do the right thing. We can't do it alone. Otherwise we would have done it by now.

01:00:36.920 So me needing, um, words of affirmation, me wanting words of affirmation. I don't need it.

01:00:42.640 Right. It's, it's, well, maybe I do. It's okay to want it. It's okay to want it for sure. Hey,

01:00:47.680 Seth, good job. Hey, you're doing right on this. Thanks. And not because I'm looking over my shoulder

01:00:52.200 saying, Hey, am I doing right? Honey, please, you know, tell me if I'm doing right. Cause I don't

01:00:55.720 know shit on my own. No, that's, that's weak. Right. But it's like, Oh, you got it. You're doing

01:01:01.140 right. Keep on going. That's an even with like, you know, dude friends like, Hey man, good job.

01:01:06.460 We're like, yeah, keep on coming this way. You nailed it on that thing. I'm like, thanks

01:01:09.280 for doing that. That feedback encourage us, encourages us to do more of the right thing.

01:01:15.560 And men are like dogs, not in the right way, but like a good dog that you can throw. I mean,

01:01:20.860 not in the wrong way, but guys are like dogs. Like we will run and play fetch all day. Just like

01:01:30.580 we have, we have two dogs. He'll run all day till he's, you know, just dead men. When we are getting

01:01:35.860 the feedback in that way, we're like, yep. Oh, work to 18 hours. You want me to do this other

01:01:40.820 thing when I come home? Sure. Like all, all it's good. Like you're appreciative. You're showing

01:01:45.080 gratitude, all this stuff. If I know that I'm doing right. Sometimes that is all I need to continue to

01:01:50.540 do right. Now, again, it's not the sole reason going back to what we talked about before. It's like,

01:01:55.060 oh, I did it for two weeks and nothing. Forget it. That's, that's the wrong. I want to say one

01:01:59.480 thing too, to this as well. We have sons and, um, I, they, some of them did a Taekwondo and I was

01:02:06.640 watching our kids and our daughter does Taekwondo as well. And watching the young men in that martial

01:02:12.280 arts studio want to make their, uh, master Nini. It's a female wanting to make her proud. And that

01:02:19.700 shifted how I felt about Seth needing words of affirmation and to be seen is watching these kids

01:02:25.040 that are seven and 10 and 15, just want to make this woman proud. And when you're, if you're a

01:02:31.800 woman struggling with this idea with your husband, put it in that context of what if this was my child?

01:02:36.840 What if this was someone, what if this was a boy that I love? Now I'm not saying that men are boys.

01:02:40.880 So please don't hear that, but that need for like wanting to feel like you're doing something amazing

01:02:46.620 never goes away. So let's not pretend it goes away because we're adults. Right. I think that that's

01:02:51.800 such a, it's, it's heartbreaking and I'm guilty of it.

01:02:55.640 Well, guys, um, I've really appreciated the conversation we've got through a lot here and

01:02:58.840 I know there's always so much more we can talk about, but I want to give everybody the opportunity

01:03:02.460 to learn more about what you guys are doing in your podcast. And then also the couple of resources

01:03:06.360 that you shared a minute ago. If you want to talk about those, let people know where to connect

01:03:09.920 with you and where to pick up more resources. Yeah, absolutely. So number one, we do high performance

01:03:14.960 marriage coaching and that is weekly meetings with me and Melanie. Uh, we can do one-on-one stuff.

01:03:20.780 It's for 90 days. We turn your marriage around. As long as people are willing to get feedback and

01:03:26.020 have a growth mindset, we can help you change your marriage, but it's a commitment. It's a 90 day

01:03:30.500 commitment. So, uh, high performance marriage coaching. And then also the power couple planner,

01:03:35.720 if you want to show it here, you can get all of these things at anatomy of us.com. So our website

01:03:39.300 is just anatomy of us.com. You'll see tabs for the power couple planner. We'll get the power list out

01:03:43.900 there. So people can download that for free. Um, and the power couple planner is just my way of

01:03:49.260 systematizing marriage success, right? It's literally like people go, Oh, we need to do

01:03:53.460 more date nights. Okay. Well, freaking do it. Like, don't talk about it, do it. And so there's plan,

01:03:58.040 there's date ideas. It's like, it's like the battle planner that you have, which I have a couple of

01:04:02.840 copies that have been filled out long ago. Uh, it's, it's like that, but for marriage, it's got

01:04:07.460 conversation starters, date night ideas. Um, you plan stuff out like, you know, whole year, it's a,

01:04:12.480 it's a whole year planning, planning. So just go to anatomy of us. And that's our podcast as well.

01:04:16.400 Like we said, we have over 500 episodes just talking through all of this stuff and you can

01:04:20.080 see we're pretty raw and real and we answer listener questions and we're here for all of

01:04:25.040 the relationship things. Yeah. That's, that's what we do. It's our mission. So good. You guys. Well,

01:04:29.720 I appreciate it. I appreciate our friendship. I mean, just getting to know you guys over the past

01:04:33.060 several years has been awesome. Seth, you and I've been hunting together. We're going to make that

01:04:35.940 happen again next year, hopefully, but yeah, yeah, I, I appreciate you. And also I appreciate your

01:04:40.920 example. You know, it's really good to see people who aren't perfect, but that are willing to admit

01:04:46.540 where they struggle and then to see how they work through those struggles to create something really

01:04:50.780 powerful. So you're a good example to us. And I appreciate that for both of you guys.

01:04:54.500 Yeah. Thanks, man. It's a, yeah, we're just being real, just like every, everybody else. And, um, uh,

01:04:59.940 this, the growth mindset over the fixed mindset makes all the difference. So I appreciate,

01:05:03.260 I can't wait to go do Hawaii again. Uh, this time we'll make it happen for sure.

01:05:06.400 Like it's not easy. It is not easy. So yeah, it's taken me a lot of tries as well. We'll get it done.

01:05:13.480 Thanks you guys.

01:05:15.460 There you go. Gentlemen, my conversation with again, my good friends, Seth and Melanie Studley. I hope you

01:05:21.820 enjoyed that one. Uh, I, I said in the beginning that these two are, are raw. They tell it like it is.

01:05:27.720 It's not your typical or traditional marriage advice where they whitewash everything and paint it all

01:05:32.820 with, uh, that those rose colored lenses. This is valuable information. It's hard won, hard fought

01:05:39.240 information, and it's going to, uh, hopefully help you in your own marriage and in your relationships

01:05:45.500 in general. And that's what we're after. We're after providing the tools and resources you need

01:05:49.520 to thrive in every facet of your life. So please, if you would make sure you follow both Seth and

01:05:54.980 Melanie, have a listen to their podcast, pick up the tools they have, uh, see if they're going to work

01:05:59.580 for you. I think they will. Cause I've seen them and they are very, very powerful tools. If used

01:06:03.560 correctly, uh, also make sure you take a screenshot right now. You probably know a brother who's

01:06:08.180 struggling in his marriage or relationship. Take a screenshot right now, send a text, let somebody

01:06:12.580 know what you listened to, or even share it on social media so that people know how powerful this

01:06:17.920 advice can be. And hopefully how powerful the messages that we're sharing. It's a great way to give

01:06:22.060 back. And it's also a great way to help a brother who might need some help or direction or insight

01:06:28.480 that we offer here. Guys, again, appreciate you all check out the battle ready program at

01:06:32.900 order of man.com slash battle ready. Consider supporting us through our exclusive brotherhood,

01:06:37.740 the iron council, the store, leaving a rating and review, sharing the information on social media,

01:06:43.100 wherever and however you feel like sharing, we take it all. All right, guys, you've got your

01:06:46.920 marching orders. We will be back on Friday until then go out there, take action and become the man you

01:06:52.340 are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of

01:06:57.400 your life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - August 08, 2023

SETH AND MELANIE STUDLEY ｜ The Anatomy of Marriage

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