Order of Man - Showing Up When It Counts, Taking Ownership, and Doing the Work ｜ ASK ME ANYTHING

00:00:00.000 I wish my team was more open and raw and authentic with what we're dealing with and it's like

00:00:04.300 got it so you're doing that oh no I'm waiting and hoping for someone else to take the lead

00:00:10.220 men don't wait and hope and I think this is a principle that we can relate to in many aspects

00:00:17.160 of life group accountability diminishes personal responsibility you can't have a group of people

00:00:25.840 all owning it. Who's going to own it? Who is responsible to ensure that there's a change?

00:00:35.640 All right, Jay, we get an opportunity to do it again, man. I always somewhat appreciate Ryan

00:00:40.700 being too busy for us. So we get to have these chats. How you been, man? I'm doing good, man.

00:00:46.120 And I feel the same way, right? We don't being on opposite sides of the country, more or less,

00:00:50.520 we don't get to talk too much, see each other too much. This is a nice opportunity for us to

00:00:53.920 connect a little bit and it's good for the the men out there to hear a little different perspective

00:00:58.940 right yeah absolutely well and i i missed you man we had the forge event last week

00:01:05.240 um you went last year i didn't oh i think you went last year okay so i had the same problem

00:01:13.480 two years in a row is is well i shouldn't call it a problem right it's so i i you ryan always

00:01:19.180 reminds me to be careful with the words i use right and and saying stuff like unfortunately

00:01:23.300 I couldn't make it or I had a problem. Right. Cause it's not a problem. And I think this is

00:01:27.100 a good lesson for guys to learn. Right. I had both years, my youngest son is a actor, I guess

00:01:34.360 he's into theater. Right. And they do a theater production every spring and both years, it just

00:01:40.440 so happened that they were on the same weekend as the forge event. So as much as I love the events

00:01:45.060 and would want to be there, you know, my, one of my core values is family. Right. So it's an easy

00:01:49.620 discussion um and i kind of got that kind of got reinforced for me the second night of the show

00:01:54.860 right because i when i had spoken to ryan i bought my ticket for this year both years events i bought

00:01:59.000 tickets for and then realized we had the conflict but when i bought the ticket ryan and i discussed

00:02:03.380 um i gifted the ticket to luke ireland in the iron council and and we discussed that i would

00:02:08.340 possibly still come out maybe you know thursday night uh after the first show and skip the second

00:02:13.780 show and after talking to ryan getting some advice from him we both agreed that you know it was

00:02:18.280 important that I be at both shows and and Friday night after the second show I had just kind of

00:02:24.260 almost like not in passing but it said to Frankie he's my youngest I told him you know hey the night

00:02:30.060 before I told him five stars out of five the show was great right and Friday night I said you know

00:02:34.400 I'm going to take a star back from last night because tonight was even better than last night

00:02:37.480 and he teared up and I didn't make it I didn't say anything about it then because I didn't know

00:02:41.180 if I said something wrong we were like right outside the show right outside the auditorium

00:02:44.640 But when we got home, I said, hey, did I say something wrong?

00:02:47.440 And he said, no, they were tears of joy, right?

00:02:49.900 So that moment, I can never get that moment back.

00:02:52.200 And as much as the forge, I'm sure, was unbelievable, it's never going to replace that, right?

00:02:57.200 Because how important is it for our sons and daughters to hear that we're proud of them and that they did a good job, right?

00:03:02.780 How many of us of our generation, our fathers just weren't built like that, right?

00:03:06.320 The praise didn't come very, at least in my house.

00:03:08.960 And I know my father loved me.

00:03:10.060 I know he's proud of me.

00:03:11.120 But praise didn't come easy, right?

00:03:12.960 So I think it's important that our kids hear that. And that moment right there, although seems at the time kind of trivial to me, when I was thinking about it afterwards, I was like, wow, imagine if I didn't go. Imagine if Thursday night I took a red eye out to St. Louis and I didn't have that experience with Frankie. So I think that's why it's important to know your values and it makes those decisions easy.

00:03:34.640 yeah at the forge event i think it was larry hagener used this illustration he said you know

00:03:40.140 we look at life as a target and you have so many arrows in your quiver and that inner circle is you

00:03:48.320 know god and your creator right close to that is your spouse your kids and things like the men's

00:03:54.140 forge event that's the outer ring of the target it's it's important it's valuable to us but it's

00:04:00.760 not the most important thing and uh so props to you for for making the right call and one thing

00:04:06.880 that comes to mind jay too and i think it's important for us to remember this as men is

00:04:11.660 you don't get to define um the moments that matter for your children and in fact they may not know

00:04:20.740 when those defining moments show up it may not be game one it may not matter that you're in game two

00:04:27.820 but for whatever reason it's game six when they really needed you there and if you happen to not

00:04:34.760 be there when it's most important man then then we lose out and and that's why the consistency

00:04:41.720 of showing up is so critical because we never know when they're going to have these moments

00:04:46.220 where it's really important for you to be there you know so great you know hats off to you man

00:04:50.960 hats off to you thank you wait way to lead from the front you know appreciate that i love it well

00:04:56.480 it was a great event. You know, this we've done many order and events in the past. I mean,

00:05:00.900 and it's funny, I can't count how many times this has happened to me where the level of

00:05:08.520 importance of the event in my mind is like a five, right? It's like, yeah, it's, it's good.

00:05:12.920 Like it's, it's a good event and you know, it'll be great and I'll present. And, and there's a

00:05:18.000 little bit of like, you know, I'm important. Look at me. I'm going to be a presenter, you know,

00:05:22.720 and your ego gets involved and you show up.

00:05:26.340 And then as you know, we often do firesides

00:05:28.920 in order of man events and you sit down

00:05:31.960 and these guys open up and they start talking

00:05:34.900 about what really matters.

00:05:37.120 And all of a sudden that event went from a five of importance

00:05:41.680 and about me and looking good to like, no, this is huge.

00:05:46.340 This is much bigger than us.

00:05:47.760 This is much bigger than us individuals.

00:05:49.820 It's much bigger than myself.

00:05:51.060 and then you get really present to you know how important the work is you know what i mean that

00:05:56.980 we're doing within the order of man and iron council and is it was rejuvenating for me to

00:06:01.780 be reminded of that over the last couple days so it was a great event and you know you you know how

00:06:07.540 it went you just think about a past event and it was that yeah and that's why those in-person

00:06:13.480 things are so important we stress that so much in the iron council and i don't think guys take

00:06:18.120 the advantage of it that they should right whether it's whether it's just team meetups or stuff like

00:06:23.260 that events like that they they as powerful as the iron council is and the online community is

00:06:29.140 you don't get the full experience unless you unless you get nose to nose and toes to toes

00:06:33.020 yeah yeah amen to that all right man so we got some questions iron council i think we even dipped

00:06:39.000 into facebook um if we can get to those guys so unless well i'm trying to think is there some

00:06:45.760 announcement or something i should be communicating well not really well let me say this the men's

00:06:50.660 forge the the next year's events registration is open so if you're listening to me and you're like

00:06:55.720 oh man i wish i would have made it happen this year well make it happen now you don't sit on

00:07:00.840 the fence uh it's themensforge.com and you can register for next year's event and in fact and

00:07:07.540 this is always a testament of those events is you know on the last night we're talking and

00:07:12.940 everybody's like i have already registered for next year they haven't even left the the facility

00:07:17.740 the state yet right they haven't even gotten home and they're already like let's do it again let's

00:07:21.520 repeat right so um and and ryan and larry from my understanding from the first year to this year

00:07:27.200 they've done a great job even mixing it up so those guys that went this year i bet they would

00:07:33.440 register if it's the same exact thing um again but i'm sure we'll we'll mix it up we'll make it

00:07:39.140 better, bigger. Um, I think it was twice as large this year than it was last year. And I wouldn't

00:07:44.180 be, I wouldn't doubt that it's not double that even this coming, you know, 2027 years. So the

00:07:50.100 mensforge.com to register for that and, and, and join those guys next year. For sure. Yeah. Cool. 0.99

00:07:56.800 I don't think there's anything else announcement wise. So we'll get into the questions.

00:08:00.960 Sounds good. First question comes from Chris Henningsen from the iron council. I've been

00:08:06.620 a member of the iron council for about a year and a half now and i've noticed a disturbing trend and

00:08:10.860 i admit that i'm partially guilty of it myself there's approximately 1200 men in the ic yet when

00:08:15.640 looking at the channels it seems i only see maybe 20 different men making posts and maybe double

00:08:20.420 that who reply to the posts is there anything in the works to help drive engagement in the iron

00:08:24.540 council as a whole yeah so chris first off hats off to you to recognizing right and recognizing

00:08:32.000 your role in it man i can't count how many times we've had these awesome opportunities in the ic

00:08:37.840 of i wish my team was more open and raw and authentic with what we're dealing with and it's

00:08:42.360 like got it so you're doing that oh no i'm waiting and hoping for someone else to take the lead

00:08:49.640 men don't wait and hope so props to you chris to say hey i see this gap i'm possibly part of the

00:08:58.340 gap. And so I'd hope part of our response to you, Chris, is twofold. What can you do?

00:09:06.460 Because otherwise you're just being a victim of waiting and hoping for everyone else to maybe do

00:09:10.740 something that you think there's a need for. So what can you do? And then I think the second part

00:09:14.940 of the response to you is, are we doing something in the Iron Council? So let me answer the second

00:09:21.440 question first. So things that we're doing, you know this, Jay, on leadership team, we've talked

00:09:27.300 about getting someone in a position to own it. And I think this is a principle that we can relate

00:09:35.400 to in many aspects of life. Group accountability diminishes personal responsibility. You can't

00:09:44.280 have a group of people all owning it. Hey guys, let's make sure that we drive the adoption of

00:09:50.500 channels. And everyone in the room goes, okay, yeah, awesome. Let's all do that. No, that's

00:09:56.240 not how it works. Who's going to own it? Who is responsible to ensure that there's a change?

00:10:04.020 Group accountability diminishes personal responsibility. And based upon that, and in

00:10:08.960 the spirit of that comment, as you know, Jay, on the leadership team, we've talked about, hey,

00:10:13.880 we need to get someone to own this. I don't know if we have filled that spot or if that's done

00:10:19.060 recently yet, but to your point, Chris, we need to identify someone to drive it forward.

00:10:25.340 and I don't know what that person will plan.

00:10:28.720 In fact, I would argue

00:10:29.660 I shouldn't have an opinion about it.

00:10:31.580 We should identify who the person is

00:10:33.220 that is willing to be committed

00:10:35.020 to the outcome that we're looking for

00:10:36.980 and let them get the reps to figure it out.

00:10:40.820 And that is the best way that we get an approach,

00:10:43.400 not dictating compliance on this individual,

00:10:45.560 but let them be creative with finding a solution.

00:10:48.360 So there are things in the works to drive that.

00:10:51.540 Now, with that said,

00:10:53.260 now let's address question number two,

00:10:55.340 which is what are you doing about it when we see a gap what do we do about it

00:11:01.980 and and my recommendation to you chris is well what channels are you part of and which ones are

00:11:08.660 you committed to posting and being active around um and start leading from the front and and one

00:11:16.280 of the more powerful ways that you can do this in my opinion is not just to be active but get

00:11:21.860 present to the importance of it why is this important why like even ask your determine

00:11:26.960 that for yourself i noticed this trend of the channel's not as active okay why is that important

00:11:34.380 is it or is it just like we we wish it was or or is there really something important about it is

00:11:43.360 there a service that could be offered if if if guys were like you got to figure that out for

00:11:48.300 yourself, especially if you're going to lead from the front and enlist other people with being

00:11:53.780 active in it. And so I'd really challenge you whenever we see a gap in something, you know,

00:11:59.680 one, notice the gap, notice our role in it, and then ask yourself, why is it important?

00:12:05.040 And if you can get present to why it is, then that's the drive that you need to step into it

00:12:10.860 more fully. But in some cases, you know, we might have an opinion, oh, I wish this, but does it

00:12:16.700 matter. And we might come to the conclusion that maybe I don't really care. And then just let it

00:12:22.200 go, you know, because bitching about it and complaining about it's not going to do you any 1.00

00:12:26.320 good either. I don't know. Am I off base here, Jay? What would you add? No, I would add that

00:12:31.240 to your point is like a grassroots problem, right? It started your battle team because we got to look

00:12:36.620 at what we influence, right? And I don't think any one of us except for maybe Ryan, and maybe not

00:12:40.800 even Ryan influences all 1200 men in the Iron Council, right? But we should have influence

00:12:45.800 among our battle teams right if our battle teams are operating the way they should be we should

00:12:49.280 have influence among those 12 to 15 men so start there right start with the challenge there and

00:12:54.220 then like a lot of things in life and i know teams do this but a lot of things in life whether it's

00:12:57.960 an exercise program a diet we go strong for two weeks and then and then we die off right so um

00:13:04.360 again to your point is what are you doing at that grassroots level but i'm going to take a little

00:13:08.480 bit of different angle on this it's a catch-22 for me right because um i recognize the problem

00:13:14.060 I don't disagree with Chris. I'm probably part of the problem at this point in my journey in the IC, because I'm certainly not as active as I used to be. But that's almost intentional, right? Because for me, what I've found is spending too much time on the computer, right? I want to be out there doing as opposed to talking about it, right? And I think for some of us who have been in the Iron Council a long time, that happens.

00:13:37.720 But what we're doing as an iron council as a whole is the thing that you're leading right now. Right. We're doing local iron council groups. And yes, it's only in Utah. Now we have the two groups in you. That's going to expand. And I think that's going to be the answer to this, because for me, it's going to be the answer, at least because I just don't want to be on the computer anymore.

00:13:56.660 I feel like it's it's we we as a society waste a lot of time on the computer, look for look for meaning in the social media.

00:14:04.460 And I know we try not to use the foundry as social media, but it can you can fall down that track.

00:14:09.480 Right. Right. Yeah. So so I feel and again, it's a catch 22 because I know the power of the Iron Council and I know the power that the thing that we've created is is powerful.

00:14:18.300 But there's a next step, I think. And we've already taken that next step with these local groups.

00:14:22.600 And it's going to take some time to build that, just like it took some time to get up to 1,200 men on this online platform, right?

00:14:28.200 And that doesn't mean the online platform is going to go away, but I think it's going to be the answer to that problem.

00:14:33.920 Amen.

00:14:34.580 I mean, it's a total, I mean, we could, massive tangent here, right?

00:14:38.140 But I think, and Mark, here's me making a statement.

00:14:41.580 We'll see if I'm true.

00:14:42.400 We'll have this conversation in five years or so.

00:14:46.040 But analogs is going to win out.

00:14:47.620 the the more digital things are the more people get disconnected social media is just disconnecting

00:14:54.160 people more ai will disconnect like here's your response from a company it's probably not even

00:14:58.720 from a person anymore right it's an algorithm response of what's ideal that's less personal

00:15:04.820 and we're going to get to a point it's just like when you call a company and you don't get the 1.00

00:15:10.320 stupid, the, the, the automated, um, automation system answering your damn phone call. And when 1.00

00:15:17.920 a person goes, hello, how can I help you? Guaranteed everyone listening goes, oh man,

00:15:24.380 that was so nice. Yeah. Like we'll, we'll get to a point here where man, you know what? Connection

00:15:31.700 is really great. Analog is really great. Meeting people is really great. And the personal element

00:15:36.480 and the messiness of humans being imperfect,

00:15:38.780 I think will be more valuable.

00:15:41.580 That's my opinion.

00:15:42.540 I think that's a business strategy moving forward.

00:15:45.400 So we'll see, we'll see if I'm right or not.

00:15:47.260 Yeah, I hope you are right.

00:15:48.180 And this might sound a little dramatic,

00:15:49.440 but I think for us to survive as a society,

00:15:52.240 we need that.

00:15:53.120 We need to get back to the analog.

00:15:54.620 I just, I can't, I'm not smart enough

00:15:56.840 to intelligence and to talk about the things

00:15:58.460 that the internet and social media are doing to us,

00:16:00.940 but it's hurting us.

00:16:02.200 And I know it's hurting me.

00:16:03.100 And that's probably one of the reasons

00:16:04.440 why I'm not as active as I used to be.

00:16:06.480 Yeah, one of the things that I spoke about

00:16:08.700 at the Forge event is self-determination theory.

00:16:12.960 And self-determination theory, think of it this way.

00:16:15.880 When one of these three things is absent in someone's life,

00:16:19.640 there's a sense of disempowerment.

00:16:23.640 There's a sense of hopelessness,

00:16:25.400 like absence of something missing.

00:16:27.320 When these three things are missing,

00:16:29.140 and here's the three things,

00:16:30.460 autonomy in what we're doing, freedom, agency, autonomy.

00:16:34.440 number two is mastery and growth a sense of progression and the third is relatedness

00:16:42.620 connection and it's crazy you look at those three those all three of those are under attack

00:16:49.820 right governments and leaders of of ineffective organizations rob people of autonomy

00:16:57.280 mastery and growth just stay in your lane people are lazy we're not going to the gym we're not

00:17:02.660 progressing and the third we're all socially disconnected there's not relatedness happening

00:17:08.140 it's superficialness it's oh i have followers none of them care about you none of them know you

00:17:14.840 and you regurgitate some like you know poor scenario on the internet i repost it and you

00:17:21.020 you virtual signal like that means you care because what caring is it's action

00:17:25.240 it's actually doing something about it not putting a flag in my front yard going oh i love these

00:17:30.400 people that's not love that doesn't mean anything that's superficial that's external validation

00:17:36.000 it's promoting the wrong thing right so i don't get no i love it so you we need those three things

00:17:42.900 and that relatedness is part of it i'm gonna have to get that recording because that really

00:17:46.440 resonates with me of your of your speech at the of your presentation at the forge because

00:17:50.740 that self-determination theory really resonates with me and i think that's i think you're spot

00:17:54.700 on so yeah all right we we did good on question number one let's go all right let's see we can

00:17:59.700 keep it rolling all right matt matt matt matt someone that i spent a decent i think he was

00:18:05.140 at the forge wasn't he at the forge event yeah yeah that was there yeah dude uh super fun right

00:18:09.640 we we have a bunch of guys idaho some utah guys there and uh we get to the airport and there

00:18:15.360 ended up being like 12 of us on the same flight i was like dude party plane yeah

00:18:19.420 there's that connection and that relatedness right like that's a powerful moment it really

00:18:25.580 is you know it's similar we've had similar experience on the hunts that we go on right

00:18:29.860 where we we don't really we all know when we're flying but we don't realize we're all flying at

00:18:33.500 the same time and we wind up on the same connecting flight or something like that and it's it's a

00:18:37.560 really cool experience right it's it seems silly but it really is all right absolutely someone that

00:18:43.220 i spent a decent amount of time with recently said that they think that i they think that i 0.83

00:18:48.220 think my shit doesn't stink i don't have the most influence from this person but i've recently 0.79

00:18:51.920 changed a lot from being a nice guy with this person so my question is how do you balance being 0.99

00:18:56.460 confident and not a nice guy or an asshole what happens to your ego when someone with low influence

00:19:02.540 says something deep and hurtful but i seems it seems like everyone else is on their he completely 0.97

00:19:09.600 different page that he yeah but it seems like everyone else is on a completely different page

00:19:14.620 i think is what he's trying to say yeah yeah i think there's two elements to this question jay

00:19:19.200 I think there's the, the, the, the actual question that Matt is asking, right? Is how do you stay

00:19:24.740 humble and confident at the same time? And then there's a little bit of this, how do you deal

00:19:28.820 with people that, that probably dropped those kinds of comments at you, right? Because, uh,

00:19:34.920 there, there's a way to handle that. And I don't know if Matt wants both of those, but we'll,

00:19:38.120 we'll address the, the actual question he's asking is how do I have, and I, this is the

00:19:43.560 phrase I use, confident humility. How do I have confidence in my ability to grow

00:19:49.460 and that I'm not done? I don't know anything, but I'm confident that I can figure it out

00:19:55.500 while still staying humble and progressing forward. Now, let's be really clear. You said

00:20:02.400 something about being a nice guy. That's not neither of these things. Being a nice guy is

00:20:07.040 not being humble. Being a nice guy is not confident. Being a nice guy is doubling down

00:20:12.220 that the outcome of my actions are to manipulate

00:20:16.400 and appease someone's possible reaction.

00:20:20.440 That has nothing to do with you.

00:20:22.260 That's you just walking around trying to like manage everybody

00:20:26.000 and what they think about you.

00:20:27.360 Unrelated actually to the question.

00:20:30.000 So get really clear.

00:20:31.860 Confident humility is what you're doing.

00:20:33.840 Agnostic of those around you.

00:20:35.700 When we're a nice guy, we're doubling down on what people think.

00:20:39.200 and and it's exhausting so let go of that that and remember what i said earlier right

00:20:47.160 self-determination self-determination theory number one is autonomy guys we don't minute

00:20:53.260 we don't manipulate to try to get people's response that's their choice let honor the choice

00:21:00.760 jay if i say something to you and it offends you that's your choice

00:21:05.840 and and as long as i'm honest you have a choice to be upset about it or not but if i choose to

00:21:14.560 be dishonest and to try to manage your response to me now we're lying

00:21:21.260 ah yucky right so so stay away from all that sorry that's a huge tangent but like

00:21:28.480 so let's talk about confident humility here's here's my definition confident humility is

00:21:34.500 flipping the script, that being right is not the objective. It's not about being right and or wrong.

00:21:44.220 Confident humility is about confident that I can figure out the most effective way.

00:21:51.020 That's all that the confidence element is. Humility is, I know I'm not right. Of course,

00:21:56.600 I'm not right. Of course, half the information that I get from the internet, I'm just regurgitating

00:22:01.600 it like it's truth. Of course, I haven't figured it out. And the beauty of it is, is it almost

00:22:07.500 gets this wasted energy of like that you have to even know everything.

00:22:13.900 Of course, you don't know everything. So like, let it go. And your identity isn't about being

00:22:20.320 right. Your identity is I'm the guy that's always trying to figure out the right way to do it.

00:22:25.860 and, and, and see it differently. And so, you know, you don't think your shit doesn't stink. 1.00

00:22:34.920 Well, yeah. You know what? Sometimes my ego does get in the way and I don't think my shit stinks. 1.00

00:22:39.000 You're right. I need to work on that. Cause that's, that's, that'd probably be better. 0.99

00:22:43.140 You know what I mean? That I'm not the kind of individual that thinks I'm perfect. And in fact,

00:22:46.700 you know, and you know, this Jay, it's like, man, the, the older you get, the more you learn,

00:22:50.400 What do we all learn that? I don't know. Crap. I'm confident that I don't know most answers

00:22:57.540 like, and, and I get more confident that I don't know the answers, but I do get more confident

00:23:02.880 in my ability to be curious and seek it out. And I'm, and I'm confident in not giving up

00:23:09.660 and working towards something. And my intent, I'm confident. Let me say that I'm confident in my

00:23:16.260 intent? Why am I doing this? Because I care, because I want to make a difference. I'm confident

00:23:21.900 in that for sure. Right. But I'm not going to hide, align my identity to being right. So I don't know

00:23:29.780 if that helps, Matt. I almost feel like text me, dude, and we'll talk more about it. But it's this

00:23:35.160 element of, of getting away from trying to be right about things and just focusing on the kind

00:23:40.880 of individual that will find a way. And that's where the confidence is. What would you add, Jay?

00:23:46.260 so so two things the first thing i thought of when he said this you know somebody's telling 0.99

00:23:50.540 him that well i you think your shit don't stink well more often than not that's more about that 0.96

00:23:56.360 person than it is about matt right like there's something about matt matt matt maybe matt succeeding 0.99

00:24:00.980 in life right and it makes this guy person feel a little little less than right and that's more

00:24:05.840 about them because um you know most people if if they're if they're not if they're feeling that

00:24:10.920 confidence humility themselves are happy that you're doing well right so yeah why does it matter

00:24:16.240 what how other people think right well that's the other really doesn't matter other other people's

00:24:21.100 opinion opinion of you is none of your business right i tell my kids that all the time that's

00:24:25.260 easier said than done but but to your point and this is this is what i and i don't always get this

00:24:30.420 right like i hope people understand when we give this advice it's not because from from from high

00:24:34.540 on top of the mountain right it's it's things that we're struggling with as well it's in the trenches

00:24:38.160 yeah right right so but but the one thing that i learned years ago from from a guy uh uh former

00:24:44.840 navy seal chris smith called himself quattro deuce is his nickname um but this the mirror test right

00:24:52.360 and and it goes to your point if you can look he said go home and take 10 minutes and just look

00:24:57.240 stare yourself in the mirror for 10 minutes and he's like it's harder than you think and it is

00:25:01.000 right but his point was if you can look yourself in the mirror and feel good to your point you have

00:25:05.800 the right intent right matt if you know your intentions are good right then then who cares

00:25:11.140 right who cares what what other people think it's it's i think when we and i'm not saying this is

00:25:15.820 you matt but we question ourselves when we know maybe our intent isn't or maybe our ego is a

00:25:20.880 little bigger than it should be right but but when you when you really step back and say

00:25:24.680 and and you know listen that's why we need we need brotherhood because we're very good at lying to 1.00

00:25:30.140 ourselves right we need those brothers that are going to tell us hey jay you're full of shit 0.99

00:25:33.040 right um so so but if you can look back and really be honest with yourself and if the intent is right 0.98

00:25:38.760 then who cares yeah yeah i love it cool all right next question brandon bagden where'd you guys draw

00:25:49.220 where do where did you guys where do you guys draw from when you've been in a place where

00:25:53.240 there's a mountain of weight on your shoulders you're tired the tired that's deep in your soul

00:25:57.500 from taking care of family either aging parents who don't have a full view or reality or kids

00:26:02.360 who likewise don't and they just instantly want a few holy unproductive moments with their father

00:26:07.440 or their son and you've gotten put on a you've got to put on a smile and not let them see what's

00:26:13.940 weighing you down where have you got where have you guys drawn the patience the humility and the

00:26:18.060 energy to smile and go sure i got all the time in the world for you what's on your mind

00:26:21.760 tough so first off it's brendan right yeah or brandon brendan brendan brendan yeah i've been

00:26:30.980 there and and i'll share a story i've absolutely been here and i was also reminded of at the forge

00:26:36.860 event this past week that like, we all have weight, man. It's messy. Life's messy. And there's

00:26:46.400 a lot of people dealing with a lot of stuff. So first off, I want to call out, don't be alone in

00:26:53.340 it. You're not alone in it. You might even want to be alone in it because there's some sick

00:26:59.420 gratification that we get from being alone in it, you know? And trust me, I kind of go there,

00:27:06.260 right? Like it, when, when the, when I get in a dark place, you know, I'll, I'll, I almost feel

00:27:13.400 satisfied. I'm being alone that no one's there for me. It's my story, right? It's my already

00:27:18.620 always listening story that I just look to validate. So, but don't because life is stressful,

00:27:25.300 life is hard. And there's a big difference with dealing with life alone versus dealing with life

00:27:31.640 with support and so don't fall into the trap of being alone in it that's number one so the story

00:27:39.300 so years ago um and it seems like a long time ago in fact i'm i'm thinking of the math this is like

00:27:47.400 20 years ago probably yeah like 20 something years ago that sounds horrible to even admit that

00:27:53.020 um i was recently divorced my ex-wife um it was the first summer she moved out of state

00:28:03.220 and i had my boys my two boys full-time ages one and about three

00:28:10.240 um we sold the house child support alimony was at a level that i couldn't pay everything

00:28:20.320 it was impossible like literally the math didn't work i had child support i'm out i had

00:28:29.200 i i downgraded i rented a bedroom from someone else i have two kids and i'm renting a bedroom

00:28:37.100 in an apartment from someone else to try to make ends meet right i had a little bed for them on

00:28:43.120 the side of my bed with the twin bed in there i went from owning a home a four-bedroom home

00:28:49.560 that i built that was beautiful this backyard in this brand new neighborhood

00:28:54.520 all to renting a bedroom from another dude with two kids sleeping on the floor 0.99

00:28:59.940 a woman that came to me and said i choose life without you i'd rather take a life of hardship

00:29:09.580 and and difficulty than be with you right that let's get really clear that's that's what she's

00:29:16.380 communicated. And I can't make the numbers add up from a work perspective. And this is my first

00:29:26.360 summer. And I have a full-time job. And this is pre-remote workdays, right? At my job, I was

00:29:35.000 working roughly from 6 a.m. to about 4 p.m. Well, find me a daycare that would take my kids at five

00:29:41.580 to give me time to drive to work doesn't exist and and i had to have pickup done by five and i

00:29:48.680 couldn't get off i i worked too late and the drive time was too late so i'm robbing my employer to

00:29:56.880 try to get to kids in time and and and my agreement with them is that i would work nights to make up

00:30:04.160 the difference so i could because i wasn't getting an eight-hour day in and this was all you hopefully

00:30:10.140 I'm painting this picture right I was stressed I was highly stressed and I would get the boys home

00:30:15.300 and I'd start working and dad dad dad play legal dad and I just lost it one time and I just was 0.92

00:30:24.000 irate I belittled them I yelled at them I was a complete jerk and I remember um going into the 0.92

00:30:32.400 room after I yelled at them and I closed the door because they're in the living room and I just 0.98

00:30:36.540 started sobbing. And I was like, what can I do? And look what I'm doing to my kids. My life is

00:30:44.320 falling apart. All of that was true. So for me, this is what relates to me based upon your story.

00:30:53.580 And then I remembered, what's my job? What's my number one job? And it is that in my opinion,

00:31:01.580 that's the most important role I have

00:31:03.480 is how I raised my two boys.

00:31:08.440 I have no secret bullet, right?

00:31:10.280 There's no thing that said,

00:31:12.260 oh, I'll fix all my circumstances

00:31:13.780 so I can be a happy dad.

00:31:15.020 None of it was available to me.

00:31:17.860 And I inherited it.

00:31:19.400 And I don't know why,

00:31:20.200 this just worked for me.

00:31:22.220 I went, I use different language,

00:31:25.820 but I went F it.

00:31:28.240 When I pick up them and I come home,

00:31:31.580 everything else gets the middle finger, F it all. None of it matters. And I didn't work. I didn't

00:31:40.560 worry about a thing. I played Legos. I threw the Frisbee. I went on the walks. I was just engaged

00:31:46.940 almost and it felt reckless. Just screw it all. I don't give a crap. Right. And I would just be

00:31:53.480 present with my kids. And then we'd go to bed. I'd put them in bed. They fall asleep and I take

00:31:59.860 a deep breath. And then I get back to work. And I, that's how I had to approach the stresses

00:32:09.940 of life and the weight while still being present to my kids is I couldn't. And I still, to this

00:32:16.180 day, whenever I try to micromanage, whenever I try to be present, my kids and try to work at the

00:32:21.460 same times, it never works. And, and so I have to put the phone down. I have to go for the walk.

00:32:27.860 i have to close the laptop lid and go throw the baseball outside i got to i can't do them both

00:32:33.560 because when i do it both they both suffer and most importantly my kids suffer and and and that's

00:32:41.340 my recommendation to you is is f it f it when you're when you're with your kids and when you're

00:32:48.040 not then get to work and work on your circumstances but but try to leave it on the doorstep yeah i

00:32:55.160 you hit the nail on the head, right? It's, it goes back to what I was talking about at the

00:32:58.620 beginning of the call with knowing your values and your priorities and what you stand for, right?

00:33:02.660 And if family is what you stand for, then that decision becomes easy. And listen, we can, I can

00:33:07.320 relate, right? Like I love my 12 year old to death does not shut up. And he does not, we don't, we

00:33:13.100 don't have similar interests, right? He wants to tell me about stuff that I have no interest in

00:33:17.560 whatsoever. And I'll be honest with you. And I should probably, I'm not proud of this, but if it

00:33:21.860 was my 24 year old 12 years ago doing that i'd be like nicholas i don't want to hear it you know

00:33:27.140 basically i probably would have told him to shut up right yeah and but but then i wasn't clear on

00:33:31.580 what my priorities were and what i stand for what my values were right and now i have to remind

00:33:35.620 myself take a deep breath and similar to you remind myself no what's important to me i'm

00:33:39.440 going to listen to him i'm going to engage right and so i think you hit the nail on the head and

00:33:43.160 then the other thing is brendan you just got to take some time for yourself easier said than done

00:33:47.600 Right. But I just read something today. Twenty four hours in a day. Right. Eight times three is twenty four. Eight hours for work, eight hours for yourself, self-improvement, working on yourself, eight hours of sleep. Right. Is that realistic? Maybe not. But you got to take some time for yourself.

00:34:02.020 That means getting up a little earlier in the morning and getting that walk in so that you can be like present for your kids and help your wife get your kid.

00:34:09.220 Like there was a time where, you know, my routine was to get up six, six thirty, get a workout in, do all the things for myself.

00:34:18.400 And it ran over into the time of my son getting ready for school and getting to school. Right.

00:34:24.400 So now I had to adjust that because what's my priority? I want to be a good husband. I want to be a good father.

00:34:28.620 so I get to get up earlier and get it done before he goes to school and now I can help get him ready

00:34:32.840 for school I can drive him to school every morning or I can get it done after right so

00:34:36.580 I think it's important that you find strategies to take some time for yourself but also to identify

00:34:42.600 and I know I know Brendan I've I've met him a few times and had some conversations with him I know

00:34:47.820 where his priorities are I think it's just reminding yourself of where your priorities are

00:34:51.580 yeah I want to say this and he probably knows this already right but like I'm not saying like

00:34:58.280 don't do any work and just let your seven-year-old like dictate your schedule and you're there for

00:35:04.180 him all the time i'm not saying that either right like you have to withhold some boundaries and some

00:35:08.800 standards um of hey dad works until five but after five i'm all you right like do that in a very

00:35:16.420 healthy way um because if it was up to my seven-year-old you know i i wouldn't work at all

00:35:20.840 all day right like i'd be playing with him and that's obviously not going to work either right

00:35:25.700 And, and it's good for him to see you and man, make them work with you.

00:35:29.440 You know, if you can integrate the two, there's some value in there.

00:35:32.500 Right.

00:35:32.820 I, um, when I had the office job, I love the fact that my kids would come to the office,

00:35:37.240 you know, and I'm like, Hey, you guys can draw on the whiteboard and the conference

00:35:41.120 room.

00:35:41.440 I got some meetings, you know, so they're around it.

00:35:43.720 They see what I'm doing.

00:35:45.080 I think one of, this is totally tangent, but I don't know.

00:35:48.180 I I'm just feeling this.

00:35:49.200 um when your kids i don't believe in work-life balance i actually don't believe in it and not

00:35:58.720 from the perspective of like this balance of separation of time i don't believe in that

00:36:03.540 there's you at work there's you at home and they are not intertwined they're absolutely intertwined

00:36:08.240 and when they're not your kids see it as competition it's work or it's us

00:36:14.480 but when you integrate them into working right jay you coach boys right in in wrestling if your

00:36:23.080 kids come to the wrestling and help you coach and kind of coordinate maybe equipment or run the

00:36:29.800 timer or whatever is wrestling now competing with time with them no they see it as like oh god it

00:36:37.280 dad's doing this oh i see the output i see why he's doing it and i'm part of it now it's not a

00:36:42.840 competition of, Oh, dad chooses work over us. So look for these opportunities to bring your kids

00:36:49.060 in it, even into your hobbies, right? You love hiking, dude, figure out a pack, bring that little

00:36:54.300 kid with you. Um, last week, you know, I, I wanted to go train jujitsu on Friday. My kids don't have

00:37:00.920 school on Fridays and I wanted to go, but I also didn't want to plop my kid in front of a screen.

00:37:08.140 So what did I do? Not only bring him to the gym because I could have easily brought him to the

00:37:12.600 gym and said, look at your screen and vegetate, you know, and like sit in the corner and don't

00:37:17.860 bother me. No, I'm like, bring your gi. You're, you're training with me and all the other black

00:37:22.860 belts. You don't think he thought that was the coolest thing ever. Absolutely. And I grabbed a

00:37:30.180 couple of the guys and said, Hey, at one point, can you go like grab him and roll with him for

00:37:34.600 a round? And so there's a bunch of adults, all training. And every so often you see this little

00:37:39.960 seven-year-old over there like trying to arm bar and choke everybody right like dude did we have a

00:37:44.620 good time was it jujitsu versus me in his mind absolutely not it was us right doing something

00:37:50.940 so look look to integrate when you yeah and and there's so much benefit of having him around those

00:37:55.840 other men right like they're good men right like listen for the most part you know i'm sure there's 0.79

00:37:59.820 i'm sure there's gyms that have assholes in them right but but for the most part they're good men 0.59

00:38:03.560 right and and that's the one thing that that one of the many things that my dad did do right is 0.95

00:38:08.120 is surround me with other good men. Right. And, and he's very similar to you. You know,

00:38:12.420 my dad was a basketball coach. Right. So if you had to go recruit a game or there was just another

00:38:16.860 game, you know, state final that he wanted to see, he went, he brought me right. And I might

00:38:21.040 be the only kid there with, with five other, six other adult men, but those men were huge influences

00:38:26.640 to this day of my life. Right. So I think that's a great point. I love it. Cool. All right. Joe

00:38:33.280 gunter we have men who have been in the ic long enough to know better in positions to lead but

00:38:39.720 they are barely meeting the baseline they're not posting battle plans they're ghosting on the

00:38:43.840 teamwork so what happens when the men doing the actual work the ones still building still grinding

00:38:48.720 look at these guys coasting and ask themselves why am i busting my tail if that's acceptable

00:38:53.980 how do we keep the ic from becoming a membership club where guys just consume content and call it

00:38:59.340 growth kind of similar to to uh chris's question right uh what was his name again joe joe gunter

00:39:05.620 joe um i'm gonna be a little harsh joe is that if that if you don't mind i'll put you on blast

00:39:13.360 on on the interwebs how's that and you're not even here to confirm if it's okay

00:39:17.500 let me apologize up front look listen to the intent of what i'm about to say

00:39:25.220 but let's paraphrase i'm annoyed why because i'm doing the work and other people aren't

00:39:35.060 awesome dude welcome to society welcome to life and with that attitude you're not raising the

00:39:43.200 tide at all leaders don't lead through coercion and being pissed off that no one else is doing

00:39:52.300 it, but we are. No, no, no. That's not leadership. So yes, take care of your, you do it, right? You

00:40:01.080 model the behavior that you want from other people. Now, welcome to leadership. Welcome

00:40:07.540 to being a leader. How do you lead and how do you execute in a way that you bring others with you?

00:40:14.640 and i fully believe joe you can

00:40:18.920 but you don't do it from the perspective of enforcement oh man if these guys aren't doing

00:40:29.700 it then you know what what what they're wrong their characters are flawed they're not as great

00:40:35.960 as you yeah good luck coaching someone from that perspective it's not gonna work man

00:40:41.440 guess what people do what they do for a reason so if you have a team member that isn't posting

00:40:49.140 their battle plans why why aren't they what's the internal battle that they're struggling with

00:40:54.180 what's the story that they're dealing with how do you coach them to choose to post their battle plan

00:41:02.600 you don't do it through compliance leadership isn't seeking compliance leadership isn't getting

00:41:09.780 people to like, all do what you want them to do. And you control that's not leadership.

00:41:16.800 Leadership is interacting with people in a way that they step into executing better.

00:41:23.880 They decide to post, they decide to engage more. And it's a, you know, we could do a masterclass

00:41:31.980 on leadership, you know, for the next two hours around this. But the key thing that I'm hearing is

00:41:38.460 you have to stop you you don't have to do anything but if you want to bring people along

00:41:46.740 the number one thing that you do is you need to change your mindset of how you see people

00:41:51.720 and that mindset that i would suggest that you need to have is people want to contribute and do

00:41:58.800 great work choose to believe it maybe it's not true but make it true so if jay's on my team and

00:42:07.340 Jay's not meeting expectation. If I have a heart at war towards Jay, and I assume, and by the way,

00:42:14.200 in psychology, this is called a fundamental attribution error. A fundamental attribution

00:42:19.900 error is when I make mistakes, I have the reasons, right? Oh, well, yeah, but I have a really busy

00:42:26.380 schedule and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I have the backstory to my actions. But when Jay underperforms,

00:42:34.100 I go character flaw, personality, just the way he is.

00:42:39.820 That's lazy thinking and it's unfair.

00:42:44.160 You give yourself grace, but not other people.

00:42:48.040 So see people, see them as divine and amazing and capable.

00:42:55.100 That's step number one.

00:42:57.180 Step number two, how is your relationship with them?

00:43:00.960 Do you know what's going on in their lives?

00:43:02.600 The guy that's not posting his plan?

00:43:04.700 Do you know what he's dealing with in his life?

00:43:07.240 How's his wife?

00:43:08.920 How's his parents?

00:43:09.940 Did he lose his mom last month?

00:43:12.680 Is he a struggling teenager?

00:43:14.780 Is he highly, has major issues with self-confidence

00:43:17.480 because he was beat as a kid?

00:43:20.040 And you have the gall to have an opinion about him?

00:43:23.580 So get to know people, number two, step number two.

00:43:27.540 Number three, seek to learn from them.

00:43:33.460 Where's their operations of genius?

00:43:35.680 Where are they?

00:43:37.160 And then after all that, you can coach,

00:43:40.260 which is step number four.

00:43:42.220 You can't coach without influence.

00:43:45.980 No one cares about what you have to say

00:43:48.700 until they know how much you care.

00:43:51.920 You wanna call into these men to show up more powerfully,

00:43:56.540 get in a position of influence with them.

00:43:59.760 But if you see them as the problem,

00:44:01.900 i trust you you can do all the things you want they're gonna sniff it out oh you're just trying

00:44:07.880 to control manipulate me and remember self-determination theory number one item that

00:44:12.120 we must have is autonomy not compliance autonomy so man flip the script see people differently and

00:44:22.220 this goes for all of us guys and i i'm i'm not preaching i'm preaching from the dump right not

00:44:27.980 from the hilltop. I've done this. I've had a rough teenager and I didn't see him. I wasn't loving him.

00:44:36.920 I was despising him. He was making me look bad. He was making dumb decisions. He was

00:44:42.220 ruining my reputation as a father, all this. And I'm trying to coach and change him.

00:44:48.000 Guess what? It doesn't work. I just was pushing him further away. It's not until I let go

00:44:53.600 and saw him as the divine, amazing human being he was

00:44:57.760 and separated his potential from his current actions

00:45:01.300 and started getting in his world.

00:45:04.580 Once I got in his world,

00:45:06.100 I could understand why he was struggling.

00:45:09.820 I was understanding his struggles.

00:45:12.380 And then I could talk to him

00:45:13.360 and he believed it was genuine and true

00:45:15.760 that I genuinely cared about him,

00:45:17.820 that it wasn't just manipulation.

00:45:20.920 That's how we influence change.

00:45:22.620 that's how you lead would you add jay i mean i feel like that's almost a mic drop response but i

00:45:28.500 will i will add a few things that was a great response but you know i don't know if he's

00:45:32.620 talking about within his team within the ic as a whole maybe a little bit both right um if it's

00:45:37.860 within your team you you hopefully your team has built up the the um trust in each other that you

00:45:43.820 can call those guys out right but even in the ic as a whole if there's somebody you're questioning

00:45:48.300 reach out to that person right like to your point find out why right i will say this this is there's

00:45:53.120 been a recurring theme and it hasn't been the last few months but of um i see quote-unquote

00:45:59.360 leadership right the the the which we tried to get away from that right but that that there's

00:46:04.980 some expectation that why aren't we posting our battle plans why aren't we that's that's a that's

00:46:10.700 a like a covert contract like that's never anywhere like it's not required for anybody

00:46:14.860 to post. I was just going to ask you, I'm like, are we supposed to post our battle plans?

00:46:18.360 No, that, and that's, that's kind of the answer. And I'm not trying to be a dick about it,

00:46:21.880 you know, but, but, but the reality, and here's what I said the last time this came up. If there's

00:46:26.180 anybody that wants to talk battle planning with me, see my battle plan, reach out, reach out.

00:46:31.280 I don't feel the need for, first of all, our battle plans are for us, right? Yes. Within our

00:46:35.400 teams, even Invictus, we, we share each other's battle plans. We, we, we have a daily communication

00:46:40.100 on, on how we're doing with our quadrants and our tactics and everything, but that's the

00:46:44.540 agreement we make by joining that team right um there's no agreement throughout the entire iron

00:46:49.580 council that we're all going to share battle plans with each other but if there's somebody who's

00:46:52.540 curious who's who who wants to talk to me about my battle plan wants to see my i'm wouldn't happy

00:46:58.020 to share it right so um to you again i think your response is pretty good and i think joe's coming

00:47:03.420 from a good place right he wants to see everybody he wants to see everybody rise to a level right

00:47:07.860 yeah um yeah so it's very we have to be very careful how we do it though right let's use

00:47:14.120 corporate America as an example, right? Make it a little relatable to more people listening that

00:47:18.140 may not be an iron council. So let's say you work for a company and you see these other departments

00:47:23.460 constantly not doing what they should be doing. And you rely on those departments. Those guys

00:47:28.220 are morons. They're idiots or whatever. And you're frustrated with a company. Then I ask you, how's 1.00

00:47:33.700 your team? How's your department doing? Are you guys killing it? Oh yeah, we're killing it. Okay,

00:47:40.100 great rise the tide start showing up in a way that you guys are so darn powerful that the other

00:47:47.160 department manager can't help but come over and say hey jay dude what are you doing over there

00:47:52.880 can can i get some ideas and tips from you right so we can be more beneficial the false accusation

00:48:01.520 that people are intending to be crappy because just they don't care is naive when the procurement

00:48:08.500 department or accounts receivable isn't doing their job, trust me, they're not doing it for a

00:48:14.520 reason. It wasn't clear communicated. They don't understand the downstream effects of their actions.

00:48:21.080 Like there's things that can be addressed. In fact, one of my favorite books on accountability

00:48:28.580 is Crucial Accountability. And I actually don't think it's in this book. It's actually in Crucial

00:48:33.540 Conversations, one of those two books. But it's fascinating. When there is a performance issue,

00:48:40.340 there's actually six quadrants that it sits in. One of them is personal motivation.

00:48:49.980 All other five have nothing to do with the individual.

00:48:54.520 They have to do with the environment, with the team, with expectations, all these other things.

00:48:59.660 but if we assume the person is a problem too quickly you're closed you're closed off to

00:49:04.780 helping people right people are the solution so focus on that mindset i promise you it'll be way

00:49:11.060 more effective and you won't be pissed off as much because that's exhausting and i'm looking at i'm

00:49:16.880 looking at the question here at the end of the and he says you know why am i busting my tail if

00:49:21.060 that's acceptable um you know it might not be acceptable but you're busting your tail because

00:49:25.960 hopefully you're seeing the results right and i know you i know again i know joe wants everybody

00:49:30.200 those results but so i think your answer is it was the best your your uh bottle yeah yep so

00:49:37.080 we'll move on and uh this is our last question from the iron council will pinnell and will was

00:49:43.740 at the forge event at the forge brandon mancini said something to the effect of write your mistakes

00:49:48.040 in sand and your success in stone i have a tendency to destroy myself for past mistakes

00:49:53.060 I can relate. In my mind, mistakes are not acceptable. Do either of you have any suggestions

00:49:58.160 on how to improve at letting go and writing my mistakes in sand? Got it. Name one more time. I'm

00:50:04.560 sorry. Will Pinnell. Will, apparently you didn't listen to my presentation. I won't take it

00:50:12.060 personal. Maybe a little ego-like. There's a little bit of like, oh, ouch, you know. Growth is an

00:50:19.280 enhancer growth and stress is an enhancer mistakes aren't acceptable good luck growing 0.99

00:50:27.360 let go of that shit that's not going to help you that's not going to serve you ever and by the way 0.93

00:50:34.120 if you're in a leadership role and you set the tone to your team team mistakes are never acceptable 0.99

00:50:39.920 guess what they're going to do play it safe they're not going to push they're just doing

00:50:46.600 whatever to avoid you getting mad at them for making mistakes. Good luck with that. That's not

00:50:52.620 going to be high performing team. They're not going to innovate. They're not going to love

00:50:55.740 their job. In fact, in cases, statistically, those people leave. They don't even want to be on the

00:51:00.560 team. That's not how this works. What do you mean write it in the sand? And I'm not attacking

00:51:08.140 Brandon, but like make a mistake. Awesome. What did you learn from it? How do we grow?

00:51:13.740 mistakes is where we grow anybody religious here this is where i think and i'm totally this is

00:51:21.780 totally like off the engineer but like this is where we get sinning and the repentance process

00:51:28.320 wrong you demonize sin so much that people will hide and then what do they do do they talk about

00:51:37.020 it? Nope. Because being sinful is unacceptable. Being perfect is what's expected. And people

00:51:45.580 don't grow. They hide. That is human behavior. But when sinning is looked at as this is the path

00:51:53.080 of growth, then people are more willing. People want to be great, but they're not perfect.

00:52:01.720 And so you want a healthy relationship with mistakes. And I really believe this. I'm adamant

00:52:06.940 about this. Fulfillment, a life of fulfillment and happiness and joy is found by doing three

00:52:13.460 things. The first is having hope for the future. Do you have hope for tomorrow and what it will

00:52:21.020 bring? Number two, being present and grateful for the moment. And number three, having a healthy

00:52:29.680 relationship with the past. And the only way that I know of to have a healthy relationship with the

00:52:37.600 past is to grow from it. If you're beating yourself up from past mistakes, that tells me

00:52:44.020 there's some learning to be had. Because guess what? All my mistakes in my past, I'm grateful for

00:52:50.300 them. I'm actually grateful for them. Because guess what? I learned from them. And I don't know

00:52:59.220 if I would even learn the lessons that I know now

00:53:02.540 if it wasn't for them.

00:53:05.200 So as crazy as it is, I'm like, you know what? 0.99

00:53:08.580 It's kind of weird, but I'm grateful that I was a dipshit. 0.97

00:53:11.740 I'm grateful that I made that mistake 0.97

00:53:13.440 because I learned from it.

00:53:15.540 But if I didn't learn from it, then I regret it.

00:53:18.200 And if I regret it, then I'll drag myself through it.

00:53:22.560 So, and I'm not sure if that's 100% what Brandon meant,

00:53:26.560 right but man we we got to be okay with mistakes because that's how we grow as humans period

00:53:33.160 um it's goes back to the book the um the gap and the gain the gap and the gain is let go of stop

00:53:42.820 beating yourself up of the mistakes and the gap of where you should be and what the mistakes i made

00:53:49.340 and whatever and just focus on am i being a better version of myself am i learning and growing and

00:53:55.740 if you're doing that man absolutely you're on track in in my opinion yeah like that that's a

00:54:03.140 great answer and like i said i can relate to this is something i actually struggle with myself is

00:54:06.640 is not giving myself the same grace that i would give other people i've actually

00:54:10.540 there's there's a lot lot lot long part of my life and maybe i still believe this on some level is

00:54:15.140 that i give everybody else grace but except for myself right i hold myself to a higher standard

00:54:20.080 than i hold everybody else and i think in some ways that has benefited me but in some ways it

00:54:23.480 held me back. Right. You know, what I'm working on is that I'm not my mistakes and I'm not my

00:54:28.920 successes either. Right. I'm only as good as what I did today. Right. Like, so I don't don't give

00:54:34.640 myself too much credit for my past successes. I don't give myself I shouldn't say I don't I'm

00:54:38.800 trying not to give myself too much grief for my mistakes. Right. And I think for me right now,

00:54:43.760 the issue is, you know, with retirement, I'm not really I feel a little stagnant. Right. I'm not

00:54:48.160 really doing much to grow at this point. Right. I'm still trying to figure out what retirement

00:54:52.360 It looks like I'm not, you know, I'm coaching, but that's seasonal, like that's over.

00:54:56.560 So I think it gives me a lot of time to think about my past mistakes and question some of my life choices.

00:55:02.580 So I think the key is to just not to understand that you aren't your mistakes and you're not your successes.

00:55:08.640 And as long as you're growing, you're moving in the right direction. Right.

00:55:12.800 And Will, I know Will a little bit. I coached him when he first came into the IC.

00:55:17.180 He's he's growing. Right. Just the fact that he's here, he hasn't been here that long.

00:55:20.360 he's already an XO, right? So he's growing. So I think, I think sometimes we need to see

00:55:25.920 ourselves the way other people see us. Yeah. Yeah. Someone made a post this morning. I read

00:55:33.780 this on Instagram. It was kind of like a, it was like a carousel pictures of them with their

00:55:39.100 daughter, their son. And it had like a, what is it called? Like a voiceover, right? Someone

00:55:46.880 making a quote and the quote was around like you're and it was talking about their kid you're

00:55:52.680 smarter than me you're more amazing than me right your potential you have in me and it was talking

00:55:58.660 about how great we see our children and it really made me think I thought are we not equally as

00:56:07.040 divine as our children are did our parents not think that same thing about each of us

00:56:13.580 that our potential was limitless and we're part of greatness the answer is yes the difference is

00:56:21.340 we see our kids to a diff through a different lens than what we see ourselves and maybe we

00:56:27.360 should see ourselves in the same exact lens as our kids of of divine potential and greatness

00:56:33.380 you know and that's and that that's why i love being a parent is taught me really to to really

00:56:42.580 see the potential in people and it's not my kid it's not like my kids are just the six unique

00:56:49.000 kids on earth and no other kid is amazing as them no it's it's god gave me as a parent as a father

00:56:55.680 an ability to see something in them that no one else sees but it's there it's just the veil of

00:57:03.340 it's thinner for me that's it you know and maybe we should make that veil a little bit thinner for

00:57:09.440 how we see ourselves and see others for that matter yeah yeah i tell my kids every night

00:57:14.740 that they have greatness within them right and and maybe i need to realize and i do i believe

00:57:19.280 that right but but it's true of me too right and but it's harder to say it when you're with you

00:57:23.660 i have greatness in me it's like i even feel cheesy saying that right i don't think so really

00:57:28.560 yeah but again not not to bring it to religion but it's how god sees everybody right yeah right

00:57:35.260 yeah totally cool so we've got some time yeah i don't even know when what time it was when we

00:57:41.840 hit record i don't either so you want you want to hit a couple more like a few more does that

00:57:46.020 sound good yep yep yep um so we got kevin holding this is from the facebook group i try try and try

00:57:53.720 even more to become disciplined in many areas of my life but i struggle with it any tips on

00:57:57.520 sharpening that skill to be disciplined yes

00:58:01.440 and he tries he tries he tries

00:58:10.480 oh man i'm actually lost for words i mean because my response i want to say keep trying

00:58:18.480 yeah i mean it's right right it's reps that's that's really all it is and and here's here's

00:58:24.760 what i will say is kevin maybe look at what you're trying like what it is you're trying

00:58:29.260 you're trying to take on too much to or or maybe it's not important to you right like listen yeah

00:58:36.000 yeah i know you love jujitsu right but nowadays i think some guys get into jujitsu because they

00:58:42.260 think they have to right and it's like yeah yeah because oh no maybe go try muay thai maybe go try

00:58:47.000 i think because i think having some sort of self-defense and being able to protect is part

00:58:50.700 of who we are as men right but maybe muay thai is your thing right maybe there's another martial arts

00:58:55.000 that that your thing and you know like listen i know every every martial art has the wow this

00:58:58.960 one's better for this this one's but the bottom line is is or like to use it another example is

00:59:03.780 people are like you know i really i really want to be strong or i don't like going to the gym

00:59:08.580 right all right there's body weight workouts you can do there's plenty of stuff you can do fine

00:59:12.100 i think when you find what something that fits more to your personality or your desires it's

00:59:19.180 easier to be disciplined right maybe you're trying to be disciplined at the wrong things

00:59:22.380 right and that's not to say that that your priorities are wrong it's that you're you're

00:59:26.680 you're executing with the wrong things maybe that's that's the one thing that comes to mind

00:59:31.000 for me right like if you're not a runner and you don't enjoy running you're not going to get in

00:59:35.260 shape by going by going for runs but if you love running and you get something like you're going

00:59:39.040 to go for runs right maybe it's bicycling maybe find what's i think when you find what's important

00:59:43.820 to you or the things you enjoy it's easier to be disciplined yeah and it's interesting we read a

00:59:48.640 book in the IC a couple of months ago called Effortless, I think it was. And that book really

00:59:54.920 disrupted this idea that like, not everything has to be a grind. Right. Right. And it's kind of

01:00:01.300 funny as we latch on grinding to discipline, right? Do I have discipline? Do I grind everything?

01:00:08.820 Right. Is everything difficult that I do? I'm highly disciplined. It's like,

01:00:13.360 there came to a point where like, well, why are you making it so hard on yourself? Right? Like,

01:00:17.060 you know, so be careful not to get into the space of just like, I'm life's not miserable. So I'm not

01:00:22.960 disciplined enough. Right. So be careful. Don't go there. However, you know, if you really feel

01:00:29.520 like, man, I'm a tumbleweed, I'm constant seeking instant gratification everywhere I go. I can't

01:00:39.400 control my body or my mind. And you're just flippant and you're just, everyone is controlling

01:00:46.520 you and you almost have no discipline kind of thing, then I would get really present to the

01:00:52.160 cost of it. What's the cost? For me, that's the stick helps me. And, and I would get super present.

01:01:01.560 It's greater than you realize, right? I read this study. This is an example. This might be a little,

01:01:09.940 I don't know. I feel like this is a little harsh. Maybe I might hit my camera. Sorry.

01:01:16.520 I read this study that when kids are like toddlers, when they're toddlers and they're like overweight as a toddler, that forms a baseline of genetic cells that they will then inherit for the rest of their life.

01:01:35.280 So they will forever, their cells will naturally, their bodies will naturally want to be heavyset later on as adults based upon how healthy they were when they were kids.

01:01:49.880 Okay.

01:01:50.920 So let's assume that you're not disciplined about your health.

01:01:56.160 You might be tempted to go, well, the stick is I'm going to die young and I don't have a six pack.

01:02:04.040 and my wife's not physically attracted to me.

01:02:07.060 Like you might think that's the cost.

01:02:11.520 That's not the cost in my mind.

01:02:15.360 The cost is what habits am I creating for my children

01:02:20.600 that they will have to carry on as adults

01:02:25.500 due to me not modeling the right behavior now.

01:02:31.340 That like scares me, right?

01:02:33.700 Like I start getting like, man, I need to level up.

01:02:38.500 What relationships with your friends that when I'm not showing up powerfully and making sure that they know that I generally care for them and I'm speaking into them would make the difference of them being better husbands and better fathers in their own house.

01:02:55.780 But because I'm not modeling it, because I'm not where I need to be, I can't help them.

01:03:02.500 That's the cost.

01:03:03.700 right i believe all humans our impact in the world is far greater than we realize

01:03:12.240 but we downplay it because that's too much pressure for us to take on

01:03:18.840 and so you want to get motivated don't get don't or discipline don't think

01:03:25.500 you know i need to go to the gym because you know everybody goes to the gym and ryan says

01:03:31.320 we should go to the gym no that's not strong enough man you got to go you got to go deeper

01:03:34.980 i want to see my kids like i where i was talking with someone the other day we're talking about

01:03:39.880 jiu-jitsu and how little kids when they're training when they do competitions it's like

01:03:45.220 an emotional disaster right because they're like that kid was trying to hurt me and they lose and

01:03:50.720 everyone's seeing them lose on the mat it was you know it's a very emotional state and i'm sure

01:03:55.560 wrestling is the same way like when little kids are doing wrestling matches they're just kind of

01:03:59.880 an emotional wreck um and i was sharing a story how i'm like you think that's bad

01:04:06.200 try wrestling as a or doing a competition as a father and having your boy on the side of the mat

01:04:14.720 crying because you're losing

01:04:17.440 right keave used to watch me and it would break my heart because he was over there

01:04:25.500 sad and like just right that I was getting my butt kicked and I was like oh man but what was

01:04:33.900 he learning dude dad did hard things dad got destroyed dad got beat and he kept competing 0.84

01:04:42.400 and he kept going and he didn't get his hand raised and he lost again and he lost again he

01:04:49.400 I could have easily bowed out and go oh that makes me look bad I want to be a hero in my son's mind

01:04:54.880 like but no man the price was paid and the price that i was willing to pay is for my son

01:05:02.520 to see how we should show up in spite of winning that we do hard things and that there's growth

01:05:08.880 and so dig deeper is is ultimate what i'm getting at dig deeper than the surface level stuff because

01:05:14.860 and i believe this how you show up in the world absolutely matters and it matters and i'm speaking

01:05:22.940 to you specifically what's his name kevin kevin how you show up in the world absolutely matters

01:05:30.200 and you're showing up in packs way more people than you realize

01:05:37.320 and and so you need to rise up not just for you you need to rise up because people need you

01:05:46.720 and maybe that gives you some food for thought yeah i think it sounds maybe a bit i don't know

01:05:53.820 if contrite's the right word but overused now but it's it's still true right it's knowing your why

01:05:59.720 simon sinek start with why right and and knowing your values what you stand for right because

01:06:04.280 i got a buddy and i know he's probably not the first one to say it but

01:06:07.400 he says all zach evanesh says all the time stand for something or you'll fall for anything

01:06:12.120 right and it's the same kind of idea if you don't know what you stand for if you don't have your

01:06:15.980 values your principles and your standards and your why in place then that discipline is going

01:06:20.420 to be very hard because you're going to be all over the place right and you're going to be you're

01:06:23.640 going to be pulled in every direction every time you read a facebook post about oh you should be

01:06:27.480 doing this or you should be doing that or you see the instagram like you're it's wishy-washy right

01:06:32.360 so it's not important enough to you right yeah to be frank yeah yeah so that's that's i think

01:06:38.100 to sum it up kevin you know dig deeper find out why those things are important to you why you're

01:06:42.220 doing them. I love it. One more question, Jay, you good on time? Yeah, yeah. One more. Let's

01:06:47.160 Eric Cooper asked, he asked about making mistakes. So that's him. Will, we answered that one with

01:06:54.280 Will. Let's see what Ben Phelps, Phelps, Ben Phelps. I'm dealing with the question on force.

01:07:03.820 One side operates similarly to the IRGC, Taliban, Hezbollah, et cetera, burden American cities and 0.61

01:07:11.180 perform genital mutilations etc yeah genital mutilations etc meanwhile the other side seems 0.98

01:07:18.120 to be full of spineless cowards that refuse to enforce the laws we already have a little this 0.97

01:07:22.560 one's a little political right but but i think we can make it a little less political when he

01:07:27.000 asks the questions what is justified force how should one approach things such as without flying

01:07:31.560 off the deep end so i do think that's a good question for men in general right like take the

01:07:35.400 political side at the political stuff out of it what when is because because violence is needed

01:07:39.640 right violent there's a time and place for violence right and and so i think maybe that's

01:07:43.600 kind of his question right um or we can what do you think yeah man how's this jay i'm gonna let

01:07:51.880 you tackle the time for violence you have the better reps on yeah because you you've done that

01:07:58.440 dance sure yep where you are trying to manage a level of control in a situation well let's well

01:08:06.280 let me share. I think what I'm going to share will lead perfectly. And then you run with it

01:08:10.820 to when do you then do force? Is that fair? Okay. So, so let's get really clear.

01:08:18.060 First off, what's, let's address our, our, our spineless brothers and sisters first. Okay.

01:08:27.480 In leadership, I call this rescuing. We rescue people when we do it all the time, right? We,

01:08:35.340 um we step in we take over we we uh we remove the struggle from their hardships kids are arguing

01:08:43.660 and hear me out here because you guys wouldn't probably consider this kids are arguing in the

01:08:48.320 backyard we go out and why are you guys arguing and then we'll negotiate and address the issue

01:08:53.320 that's rescuing um you have people that um can't get work so what do we do we rescue we just give

01:09:00.540 them money we don't teach them the fish we just give them some fish and we rescue and rescue and

01:09:05.740 then to add on all top of that we have a society that will make you a hero if you're a victim

01:09:14.540 you were wronged you were a victim by default you're you're like a saint

01:09:20.900 and we'll celebrate it and you don't think it gets used by politicians

01:09:28.400 right if you've been wronged if you're a victim you're easy to control all i have to do is be

01:09:37.280 your savior i'll save you vote for me jay and that hardship and that group that doesn't like you

01:09:43.760 i will take care of it i will save you

01:09:46.100 even if the facts are not true.

01:09:49.740 If you feel that way, you will vote for me.

01:09:52.940 So we promote victim thinking.

01:09:56.240 Those in power will exploit it.

01:09:58.780 You get validated from it

01:10:00.680 because people feel sorry for you.

01:10:03.140 And the rescuers, they get validated.

01:10:06.160 Look at me.

01:10:07.600 I saved them.

01:10:09.360 They need me.

01:10:11.220 You don't think mom and dad get validated

01:10:12.940 when they rescue their kids?

01:10:14.420 Absolutely.

01:10:15.200 You feel important.

01:10:16.100 right? Bosses, when they rescue their employees, man, if it wasn't for me, this place wouldn't even

01:10:21.260 run. Look at me. Call me anytime. I'll save you guys, right? That's rescuing. The problem is

01:10:28.420 those people don't grow. They build dependency on being saved. Grab as many social experiments

01:10:38.700 you want to grab? Holy crap. Government programs, how we've helped Native Americans in society. 0.99

01:10:47.520 Tell me, how's that going? How's that rescuing going? It doesn't work, does it? Because it robs 0.98

01:10:55.440 people from what we talked about earlier, the challenges and difficulties of life,

01:11:01.320 which are where growth happens. So they don't build confidence, they don't grow,

01:11:07.600 and they sit back just hoping and waiting for someone to save them.

01:11:12.880 That is what our rescuers do.

01:11:15.140 Now, one step over, the opposite of a rescuer is an enforcer.

01:11:20.740 We lay down the rules.

01:11:22.680 We demand compliance and we'll punish mistakes.

01:11:29.660 Their message, you better not make a mistake.

01:11:33.420 And we talked about this already, right?

01:11:35.000 And the results of that is fear and compliance.

01:11:40.980 And when people are operating out of fear and compliance,

01:11:43.720 they'll avoid risk, so they get to avoid punishment.

01:11:49.000 They're victims too.

01:11:52.060 And they're just waiting to be told what to do

01:11:54.360 so they can play it safe and not get in trouble.

01:11:57.920 From a parenting perspective, be very,

01:12:00.200 I, this is tempting.

01:12:03.300 and really tempting to do as a parent because we know better. And if my kids just do what I tell

01:12:10.120 them to do, all will be fine. And then they move out of the house and then who becomes their

01:12:16.160 enforcer then? Some dirtbag kid that ends up dating your girl and your girl doesn't think 0.97

01:12:23.720 for herself. She wasn't an independent thinker because she had to listen to dad all the time. 1.00

01:12:28.400 And now who's she listened to? 1.00

01:12:30.320 Some scumbag. 1.00

01:12:31.760 You want that? 1.00

01:12:34.260 Right?

01:12:34.740 People under the arm of an enforcer also do not learn.

01:12:39.280 They're victims.

01:12:40.240 They don't build confidence.

01:12:41.980 And they're just operating.

01:12:43.420 Everybody is dictating what they do.

01:12:46.980 And they're just waiting to be compliant.

01:12:50.520 So in these realms of leadership and parenting,

01:12:56.060 we don't control. You don't control. You don't rob. Man, I love how all these questions are

01:13:04.740 coming together. Maybe it's just all in my head, right? But like self-determination theory, number

01:13:09.920 one, autonomy. Autonomy. It's opposite of control. Give people autonomy. Oh yeah, but they won't do

01:13:21.140 it well guess what step up you can't convince your kids to clean the room you're not intelligent

01:13:28.280 enough to figure that out to to create the systems necessary so they can see the value

01:13:35.520 of course you can it's just easier to clean the room for them or enforce it but great leadership

01:13:44.380 enlists people enrolls people so they make a commitment to something not out of not out of

01:13:53.300 compliance that is great leadership that is great parenting that's what great parents do

01:13:59.200 now i'll segue over to jay here all that is fine until someone shows up with a gun right and and

01:14:08.300 so let's because is there a moment where we need to control the environment and from my opinion

01:14:12.840 of course but you're way more um experienced in this space than than i am well i'm sure you guys

01:14:19.900 talk about this a lot in jiu-jitsu right in all martial arts they talk about self-defense right

01:14:23.460 but that's the simple answer from from from my perspective and the perspective of of that that

01:14:29.280 i was trained for 25 years in is in self-defense or the defense of others right that's when force

01:14:34.560 is is acceptable right and he talks about flying off the end this is where your training comes

01:14:39.300 into play this is where being part of a martial art system comes into play because there's different

01:14:43.440 you can manage your emotions manage your emotions but also different levels of force right

01:14:47.520 in law yeah yeah yeah there's different levels of force right there's there's hand to hand right

01:14:51.980 there's there's hand to hand there's uh batons there's you know it's it's physical force mechanical

01:14:57.460 force deadly force right or or less lethal force now too with tasers and stuff but but but we we go

01:15:02.580 through a decision making process process basically on what level of force is appropriate right and

01:15:08.560 You have to be able to justify that. Right. So, again, it's it's I think it's it's a similar idea. Right.

01:15:14.340 The thing the mistake I think we make as individuals, right, not necessarily law enforcement officers is what is truly a threat.

01:15:21.680 Right. But again, I think this is where training and having some of these we call them tabletop exercises in law enforcement.

01:15:27.720 But like I'm sure in martial arts, you guys talk about like, hey, what would you do if this happened? Right.

01:15:33.680 And then you can kind of game play it. Right. And I think, again, I'd almost say that if you aren't trained in any kind of use of force, right, whether that's martial arts to handle.

01:15:48.460 Yeah. And the reality is at that point, maybe, you know, one of the things we teach in law enforcement to the local community businesses and stuff as far as active shooters is run, hide, fight. Right. If you can get the hell out of there, get the hell out of there. If you can't get the hell out of there, hide. If you can't hide, fight. Right. And I don't think that's that depending on your level of training. I don't think that's a bad strategy. Right. Like if you're a guy who has done no training whatsoever in your life and use of force or self-defense type training and you're out with your family and shit starts at the fan, get the hell out of there.

01:16:18.460 get the hell out of it, which I would, I would argue if you're out with your family and even 0.92

01:16:22.320 if you've been trained, get your family the hell out of there at the very least. Right.

01:16:25.780 You know? Um, and again, you should be having these conversations with your family, right? Like,

01:16:29.780 Hey, Hey, if, if we go somewhere and this happens, you know, I'm carrying or whatever,

01:16:35.200 and I'm going to, I'm going to take some action, but you know, you're telling your wife, you get

01:16:38.460 to get, get in the car, get the kids and get the hell out of there. Right. Like, and you have to

01:16:41.260 have that plan. Right. So, um, you know, the, the, the simple answer is when is, when is force

01:16:46.340 justified in defense of yourself or others but the complicated answer is are you are you capable

01:16:52.020 are you trained are you willing able and and capable of providing that force because sometimes

01:16:58.680 even in law enforcement as like one of the things we talked about a lot in the police academy was

01:17:02.600 being off duty and getting involved in stuff off duty and sometimes the answer is you're just going

01:17:07.800 to be a good witness because you getting involved could escalate things right if if you think the

01:17:13.680 guy robbing the store at gunpoint is on his way out and he's not going to hurt anybody

01:17:17.720 maybe maybe gunpoint's not a good example but maybe but he could hurt someone if you get involved

01:17:24.200 right he's leaving right he's leaving let me let him leave let me see what car he leaves in let me

01:17:29.340 see if i can get a plate that he leaves in as opposed to pulling your weapon and now you're in

01:17:32.980 a you're in a in a shootout right like so these are things that as men if if we truly take that

01:17:39.280 protect part of the protect pride and besides seriously we should be thinking about and it's

01:17:42.740 why having some sort of background in training, whether that's martial arts, just, you know,

01:17:47.940 whatever self-defense system you decide to use is important, right? Because I think if we go in

01:17:52.260 without any of that, I mean, you're going to, you're going to make things worse, right?

01:17:57.120 Yeah. And there's an emotional element to this, Jay, right? I'm, I'm assuming that you would

01:18:01.380 agree with, you know, and most people, and it's funny, we joke around about this, you know,

01:18:06.640 on this podcast and in the IC, it's like, you know, how many guys think that's like, man,

01:18:11.300 i'd rise to the occasion dude like you know some guy showed up in my house man i would go rage

01:18:16.640 no you won't i mean you won't and you don't know because you you don't even know what's going to

01:18:26.120 happen right like that you're going to get adrenaline you might coward you might freak out

01:18:32.160 like you actually don't know so if you really care about this you got to create an environment where

01:18:39.080 you're being emotionally charged and everything. So you can feel this, right? And this is one of

01:18:46.600 the things I love about jujitsu. I know it's not, I hate to compare it, right? Cause it's not

01:18:51.460 the same, but it has, it's relatable maybe is like when a guy is, is controlling you and you

01:19:00.060 can't move and they're trying to choke you, there's a flood of emotion, right? You get these

01:19:05.780 emotions like anger and like, this guy's hurting me. I'm going to get him back. And it all kinds

01:19:11.460 of like emotions that you have to kind of deal with some anxieties and like you get scared,

01:19:16.920 right. And it might get hurt and, and you feel it. But what's crazy is the average person walking on

01:19:23.840 the sidewalk. They've never felt that ever. They have no idea. Right. So when it shows up,

01:19:30.540 they're just like lose their minds. Right. And there is no logic or anything happening. It's

01:19:34.900 just straight up just reactionary right fight and flight i doubt there's any logic happening

01:19:39.620 now i know the the what's happening in the body is blood flow rushes to your muscles and reduction 1.00

01:19:48.080 of blood flow through your brain i mean you literally can't think right you get dumb you 0.97

01:19:53.500 know and that dumb that's when your your training kicks in and if you have no training it's like 0.99

01:19:57.620 good luck yeah even even with 25 years of law enforcement training i've always said this goes 0.98

01:20:03.300 back to that kind of confident humility that you talked about. I have no idea. I was fortunate

01:20:08.980 enough to never be in a deadly force situation. I was in obviously use of force situations,

01:20:13.360 but I have no idea how I would have acted in a true deadly force situation. I like to think

01:20:18.840 I would act appropriately because I trained, but I don't know because I wasn't there. And that's

01:20:23.240 that confident, confident humility. Right. Um, but, but I think that goes like to, to your point

01:20:29.560 with the guy said, Oh, I would have done this. I would have done that. You have no idea what you

01:20:32.540 would have done it right like yeah and this is jay how long were you a cop for 20 25 years 25 so

01:20:38.960 here's a cop 25 years and what's his response to this i hope but i don't know yeah and i was a

01:20:45.520 training officer i did all the training arms instructor defensive tact i was the instructor

01:20:50.000 and i still like and i would tell guys that and girls that like hey we don't know until we get

01:20:54.680 that's why i don't like to comment when people ask oh do you see that shooting here here i saw

01:20:59.780 I don't have enough information to be I wasn't there I don't have enough information and again

01:21:05.400 that's you know obviously the more you train the more prepared you are the more you put yourself

01:21:09.380 in those situations I think you're you're spot on with the being choked out right like

01:21:13.800 even in that safe environment your fight or flight kicks in right you know you're not dying

01:21:18.700 you know you know that eventually you feel like you are yeah but I think that's important I think

01:21:24.860 it's also important you know it's why we box in the police academy I think they've gotten away

01:21:28.700 from that but you need to know that you can get punched in the face and keep moving that was the

01:21:32.280 people what's the purpose of that that is the purpose and and it's a shame for the academies

01:21:36.360 that have gotten away from that because there's some people who are police officers never been

01:21:39.900 punched in the face and the first time they do you don't want it to be when when they're trying

01:21:44.380 to get something done and all of a sudden it stops them in their in their tracks right because

01:21:47.740 they've never been punched in the face before same thing with getting sprayed with oc you know

01:21:51.400 the pepper spray it's so that you know because inevitably if you're in law enforcement you're

01:21:56.280 getting sprayed even though it wasn't intended for you there's going to be like you know a mist

01:22:01.240 over spray or listen we had we had one guy that literally missed and sprayed our other i don't

01:22:06.700 think the guy talked to him for the rest of their careers they you know but but the bottom line is

01:22:10.640 you need to be able to know you can keep going and that's why we do these things that's why we

01:22:13.900 train so um that's interesting i think i think as civilians for lack of a better term we need to

01:22:18.920 take these things into consideration when we talk about use of force and the world we live in today

01:22:22.960 right like we live in a pretty crazy world and there is crazy stuff happening but you got to

01:22:27.220 know where you're at and run hide fight might be the right answer for you but you have to think of

01:22:32.020 that before it happens so i did you know i i remember i did emt training not to become a emt

01:22:39.520 it was just i just felt like i should do this yeah and and it was funny because you know you

01:22:46.720 start discussing kind of morbid things you know like the whole training is like kind of morbid

01:22:51.620 You know, it's like situation, you know, this is what's happening to the person, all this stuff.

01:22:56.400 And I remember I grabbed the instructor after class one day and I go, what's the percentage of people that are like in this class?

01:23:05.900 They're like, I want to be an EMT.

01:23:07.620 And then like first on site, they go, um, I'm out.

01:23:13.560 Like, I, I can't handle this.

01:23:17.160 Like, I can't deal with this.

01:23:18.660 And, and I loved his response. His response is like, well, no one knows if they're going to handle it. He's like, so it's not uncommon, right? That people are like, uh, and they freak out. And that's why they, they're not like the primary EMT on ride-alongs and stuff, because part of this is like getting the reps, right?

01:23:41.100 Of seeing someone bloodied up and have, you know, all this trauma, um, and, and processing

01:23:48.200 that, you know, but he's like, yeah, it's a, it's an issue.

01:23:51.840 Cause people think, oh man, this is so great.

01:23:54.220 Like we can, you know, I can help people.

01:23:56.040 And then they show up on a site and they go, yeah, I can't, I'm not thinking the other

01:24:00.780 thing though, what I thought was interesting that he said, cause I I've unfortunately had

01:24:05.400 some opportunities where i witnessed like a really horrific wreck or whatever and a lot of

01:24:13.200 a lot of um the stress of it was i didn't know what to do right and that made it worse right

01:24:22.780 because i'm like uh you know what i mean and and then y'all you start second guessing right it's

01:24:28.140 like should i not move them are they're they're are they're unconscious should i lay them down

01:24:33.000 will they go paralyzed if I move their body right like I didn't know you know and and he told me

01:24:39.880 he's like what's amazing is once you get some really good training you just kind of start acting

01:24:45.100 you because you know what to do and that kind of isolates your focus and he's like you'll get

01:24:53.380 that stress later but in the moment you'll you'll move to I know what I should be doing in this

01:24:58.600 moment and and you'll you'll do a better job than you realize because you know what to do right yeah

01:25:04.240 but um and then the adrenaline comes adrenaline dump comes a half hour later when it calls over

01:25:08.980 believe me i experienced it many times lose it yeah yeah and you're like sitting and i'm not

01:25:13.260 ashamed to admit this sitting in your patrol car with tears coming down your face because

01:25:16.260 you know you just handled this young kid who who was you know had was having a seizure or passed

01:25:21.800 away or whatever it was and you did what you had to do in the moment but that's again that could

01:25:25.200 falls back to you train that right like um and and listen i'll end it on this unless you have more

01:25:31.360 is what i tell young people who who want to go into law enforcement is you need to think about

01:25:35.260 these things or if you get there and you realize this isn't for me you need to be have enough

01:25:40.720 confidence or whatever the word you want to use to say this isn't for me and that's okay right

01:25:45.360 and it's not for everybody but i think too often i think this is where we we fall into some maybe

01:25:50.200 things that some excessive use of forces and stuff is people stay in it when they shouldn't,

01:25:55.440 when they're maybe not cut out for it. And then these, these unfortunate things happen,

01:26:00.020 but that's a whole not, that's, that could be a whole nother episode, right?

01:26:03.600 Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, Jay, it was good, brother. I appreciate you. Um, call to action.

01:26:10.960 Like we mentioned earlier, uh, the men's forge.com where registration is open for next year.

01:26:17.760 and i and dude i'm excited you know will will's recorded a number of our events um he's with uh

01:26:24.360 make your mark will's just a stud and um you know whenever we've done events and will's there

01:26:30.420 i'm just excited and i know will's like probably hasn't slept and he's like now editing videos for

01:26:35.620 the next week and he's probably going to get harassed by everybody he's like dude i'm waiting

01:26:39.320 for that video i'm waiting for that video right because um so we'll have some content i'm sure

01:26:43.980 ryan will share it on youtube or on the facebook group of of that event kind of an event recap

01:26:49.640 but i'm super excited about it it was an awesome event as as always so if you guys are interested

01:26:55.060 in joining uh next year that's the mensforge.com go ahead and register and sign up um anything

01:27:02.400 else jay from your perspective no i don't think so great conversation always appreciate spend some

01:27:07.240 time with you and appreciate you brother okay excellent guys well until friday field notes

01:27:13.060 on the podcast, which Ryan will be on.

01:27:16.820 Men, take action and become the men you were meant to be.

01:27:20.640 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

01:27:23.640 You're ready to take charge of your life

01:27:25.280 and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:27:27.680 We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - April 29, 2026

Showing Up When It Counts, Taking Ownership, and Doing the Work ｜ ASK ME ANYTHING

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