Order of Man - Signal to Noise Ratio, Protecting Leadership Standards, and Why Curiosity Wins

00:00:00.000 Anything that is not business related or financially related is noise, and I don't

00:00:05.080 think that's the case. I think there's just as much signal with my own personal goals and

00:00:10.320 objectives. I think there's just as much signal with my children and being involved in their

00:00:15.100 lives. And so I want to be a completely integrated man. I'm not Elon Musk. I'm not Steve Jobs. Would

00:00:21.620 I like their wealth? Sure. I'm not willing to do what it takes to get there. So it doesn't mean

00:00:26.760 that just because I'm not doing it that way, that it's wrong.

00:00:32.400 Kip, what is up, brother? So good to see you. Looks like we're both dealing with tax nightmares

00:00:36.660 and headaches right now. So let's get away from that for a minute and do something somewhat

00:00:41.080 enjoyable and have a good conversation. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, necessary evil,

00:00:47.260 right? You got to do them. I mean, you don't have to. No, I wouldn't say a necessary evil.

00:00:52.560 I would say an evil, but is it necessary? I mean, we have to, but it's ridiculous. Like

00:01:00.980 every time I do taxes, I'm like, this is just theft at this point. Look, I'm not one of those

00:01:05.300 guys that says no taxes at all. I realize there's infrastructure that I enjoy. I realize

00:01:10.860 there's services that I participate in. You know, there's things that need to be paid for.

00:01:17.660 I get it, but I just cannot. Every time I just get, and there's nothing you can do about it

00:01:23.940 because the idiots that we have in DC don't care for whatever reason. And all we're doing is just

00:01:30.760 continuing to ramp up. And this goes for both Republicans and Democrats. It's all just more,

00:01:37.300 more, more, more, more, more. Let's pay for this. Let's buy this. Let's add this. Let's do this. And

00:01:40.700 look, I'm all for looking at programs that maybe we should explore. Not to the degree that we do,

00:01:46.080 but we don't, we can't pay for it. So end of discussion. There shouldn't not be another

00:01:51.680 discussion about it. Ah, yeah. And always easy to spend someone else's money. You know, it's been

00:01:56.600 fun. I think I mentioned this on the podcast already, but I teach a financial literacy class

00:02:02.320 to some high schoolers. Yeah. And yesterday we were talking about mortgages and we started getting into

00:02:12.540 some tax discussion, like, you know, property tax and et cetera. And it is so valuable to see these

00:02:19.480 high school kids are like, Whoa, wait, hold on. What? And I'm like, yeah, the price of the value

00:02:25.900 goes up. You have to increase property, but I'm not selling my house. And they're like,

00:02:30.140 does it matter? And they're, they're all getting riled up and kind of pissed off. I'm like,

00:02:34.620 that's good. Good. You should. It's good. Like you should be mad. I like it actually. Yeah. Maybe

00:02:40.480 the, maybe the generation will make a difference about it. I hope I saw Congress is trying to pass

00:02:46.640 tax legislation that essentially will tax people on unrealized gains of businesses and property.

00:02:54.440 So if your property value goes from 500,000 to 750,000 and you're in a, you know, even if it was

00:03:02.180 just 10%, that's an extra $25,000 unrealized, like, where does that money come from? Well,

00:03:09.840 you got to pull it out of accounts. You got to go into debt. It's a, you know, it is, you know,

00:03:14.620 where it doesn't go investing in growing the business. Great idea. So let's, let's rob revenue

00:03:20.980 and profits from companies. So they can't continue to grow. Great. They can't continue to grow. And even

00:03:27.500 if you didn't put it back into your business, you would spend it in the economy, which would go into

00:03:31.560 other businesses. So it just, the unintended consequence, I swear, these people are the

00:03:36.980 dumbest people alive or the most evil people alive. And I think it's the latter.

00:03:41.720 Yeah. Unfortunately, unfortunately, probably. All right, man. Well, let's get to some questions.

00:03:45.260 Let's get off that subject and I'm pissed. You're pissed. Now everybody else is ticked off. So

00:03:49.440 let's lighten the mood a little bit. Yeah. So we're going to fill the questions from the

00:03:53.460 iron council to learn more about the brotherhood. Go to order of man.com slash iron council.

00:03:58.320 Ron Christopher. How do you analyze your signal to noise ratio and how do you protect your battle

00:04:05.780 plan and guard against noise and stay on mission, but at the same time, enjoy the ride. What percentage

00:04:12.420 are you signal consistently in alignment? They say people like Steve jobs and Elon Musk are masters at

00:04:18.760 this jobs at 8% signal and Musk at 95. Yeah. I have heard that about both of them. And it's obvious

00:04:27.680 that they are Steve jobs was, and Elon Musk is well-equipped to really dive into the arena of

00:04:37.640 business and all this other stuff that said, I think it's a bit, I don't entirely agree with the

00:04:43.080 premise because the way that Ron is asking the question, he's almost saying that, and I don't

00:04:49.000 want to put words in his mouth, but this is what I'm interpreting that anything that is not business

00:04:54.640 related or financially related is noise. And I don't think, yeah. And I don't think that's the

00:04:59.700 case. I think there's just as much signal with my own personal goals and objectives. I think there's

00:05:05.620 just as much signal with my children and being involved in their lives. And so I want to be a

00:05:11.040 completely integrated man. I'm not Elon Musk. I'm not Steve jobs. Would I like their wealth? Sure.

00:05:17.220 I'm not willing to do what it takes to get there. So it doesn't mean that just because I'm not doing

00:05:23.140 it that way, that it's wrong. This is the same misnomer. When you hear people talk about success,

00:05:28.880 most people think financially and career related, it means success. And sure, that's a part of it,

00:05:35.240 but are you a good father? Are you a good man? Do you have good friendships? Do you have good

00:05:39.400 relationships? That stuff matters too. So I just wanted to address that part of it first, but for me,

00:05:46.360 it's after action review, it's productivity. Yeah. Look at, look at your life. If your kids are

00:05:52.680 happier and more connected and you're going to their games and they're developing and improving

00:05:56.660 and your relationships are growing, then you're, you're doing it right. And if you're, if they're

00:06:02.460 not, or maybe you're struggling with one of your children and they're having a hard time and you're

00:06:06.740 feeling disconnected. Okay. What do I need to do to pour more signal into that relationship?

00:06:13.020 And, and I've had to do that in varying degrees in my life. And I still do. Um, same thing with

00:06:20.940 business, same thing with your health, everything ebbs and flows and it's all dynamic. It's not static.

00:06:26.320 So it takes, it takes an after action review process and the scripture that comes to mind. I don't,

00:06:34.140 I don't know the, the scriptural reference, but it's by their fruits, ye shall know thee.

00:06:38.260 When it comes to who are good people and who are not by their fruits, you shall know thee. And the

00:06:43.920 same is true for the signal to noise conversation we're having by your fruit fruits. You'll know if

00:06:49.820 you're doing it right. And if you're not enjoying or experiencing the success that you say you want,

00:06:54.960 something's off, figure it out and deal with it appropriately. Yeah. And I think there's some

00:07:00.420 synergy. There's synergy in this, you know, this Ryan, I mean, you want to disrupt someone's work

00:07:05.720 environment. Um, have them go through a divorce. Yeah. Have a wayward kid. You want to affect

00:07:13.180 someone's marriage and make home life more difficult. Put him in a company with a horrible

00:07:18.900 boss. These things feed off of each other. And, and so I think it's, it helps us, right? It helps me

00:07:26.740 perform at work. Now we're, we're basing this whole thing on the premise that we should be a complete man

00:07:32.580 and balanced, right? In multiple areas. And that our jobs aren't a hundred percent, the most important

00:07:37.980 thing in the world. Right? So off of that premise, the balance actually feeds into one another. I know

00:07:44.840 I perform better at work when my physical is dialed in, when my relationships are dialed in,

00:07:51.680 when my calibration with self is dialed in, it all feeds off one another. And I think that's really

00:07:57.540 important to, to know. You, you said, you said balance and I, I would just call that out a little

00:08:03.360 bit because I don't think it's balance. Usually when guys are thinking about that, they're there.

00:08:09.020 Yeah. Yeah. I would just say integration, right? Are they integrated? Well, do the parts fit together?

00:08:14.940 Like I'm having a 76 international scout restored right now. If he tries to put parts from a 76 Bronco,

00:08:23.500 it's not going to fit. It's the engine's not going to turn over. It's not going to work. In fact,

00:08:28.120 it'll create a lot of problems. So what we're looking for is integration. So is your work life

00:08:33.580 integrated with your family life? Uh, is your family life integrated with your level of healthy

00:08:39.680 living? Is your level of healthy living tied into and integrated with your faith? The more that you

00:08:47.160 can integrate these things, the more efficient and effective everything will be. Yeah. I love it.

00:08:53.980 And count, I don't know about you, right? How many times have you seen even the lessons across

00:08:59.800 those areas of integration just feed off of each other? Yeah. Whether it's spiritual principles

00:09:06.060 showing up at work and work principles, applying it to your kids. I mean, principles are principles

00:09:11.120 and, and not only does the energy feed off of each other, but the lessons learned across those areas

00:09:16.920 of life are, are so fruitful. There's so much there. Well, and that's how, you know, you're,

00:09:23.400 you've stumbled onto something that's actually good is that it applies broadly, not just in this micro

00:09:29.000 moment of your life. Yeah, absolutely. How about other noise though? So let's, you know, we're,

00:09:35.800 we're, we're, we're saying that to make sure that we're not classifying family and friends and

00:09:40.960 relationships and certain things as noise, but there are things that are noise. Yeah. How, how,

00:09:47.220 what's your recommendation for Ron to get that noise out of our lives? Right. And, and, and focus on

00:09:53.300 the correct things. Well, the first thing is knowing what you want. And then also in addition

00:09:58.460 to that, knowing the kind of man that you want to be, the values you want to live, live in accordance

00:10:02.760 with, and then purge everything that doesn't align with that. Right. So drugs, alcohol, pornography,

00:10:09.460 other sedation methods, binge watching Netflix of even sports. You know, I've seen, I don't,

00:10:15.240 I don't watch a whole lot of sports. I'll catch a UFC night once a month or so. Outside of that,

00:10:20.300 I don't watch a bunch of professional sports. Not that I have anything against it. If you want

00:10:23.780 to enjoy a game, enjoy a game. But if it consumes your entire Saturday, college football, for example,

00:10:29.740 what the hell are you doing? Like, I can't imagine that that it, when you think about your vision of

00:10:33.660 your life, that that's aligned with your vision of your life. So I think that's important. Um,

00:10:39.440 friends can be noise if they're the wrong type of people and they're not uplifting and edifying you

00:10:45.040 and supporting you. Yeah, they've got to go. Um, if they are edifying and uplifting, it's not,

00:10:50.300 it's, that's not noise. That's a value add to your life. Kip, you're not, I don't, I wouldn't

00:10:55.080 consider you a noise in my life. I consider you a signal like this is good. This is helpful. This

00:11:00.320 is healthy. We, we can have conversations together about things we're doing well and things we're

00:11:04.440 struggling with. Um, even just getting involved in things like putting your nose in everything,

00:11:11.280 whether it's every charitable organization, every sport out there. One thing I tell my kids,

00:11:16.520 because we're all very active athletically is I tell them every season you're allowed to pick

00:11:22.400 one sport. That's it. One, not two, not three, one, not none, one. So, you know, my daughter,

00:11:33.100 this was last year. She wanted to do soccer and dance. I'm like, cool, pick one. You can pick one.

00:11:37.780 Um, my, my youngest this year just recently said he wanted to play basketball or baseball and lacrosse

00:11:46.500 in the spring. I said, yeah, you can do one because the rest is noise. I have four kids. I have a job.

00:11:52.700 I have other things that I'm doing. I don't want to be spending all of my nights running from place

00:11:57.200 to place, to place, to place, to place, trying to track down all their sports teams. So it's those

00:12:02.200 type of things that are just not in alignment with the kind of life you want to live. And you just have

00:12:05.640 to be mindful of it and ruthless in stripping them out of your life. I love it. I have to share this

00:12:14.220 thought I had. So I took the little guy to a jazz game, Jesus, probably about three weeks ago.

00:12:21.780 And it was wild to me, man. I'm sitting in the stands. It's, it's like during a timeout and

00:12:29.060 like the promoter people, they're not cheerleaders, but they're like up in the stands, right?

00:12:35.580 And they're trying to get you to yell and giving you a couple cookies and throwing and doing fun

00:12:39.640 games and stuff like that. Yeah. And everyone's going wild. And I don't know if I'm just like a

00:12:44.100 boring old man, but I was like, I couldn't help but see the correlation between that scene in my mind

00:12:50.300 and like the Coliseum in the days of like Greece. It's like, Oh God, you're just distracting me.

00:12:57.360 Look at us. We're acting like monkeys over a 50 cent squishy ball. I don't know. Like maybe I'm

00:13:06.060 getting bored, but I'm like, or, or old, I should say, but it's just, I don't know. It like turns me

00:13:10.300 off actually. I'm like, I just want to watch the basketball game. Stop trying to entertain me and

00:13:15.200 control my emotional state. Well, I mean, I think that's healthy actually. Yeah. It's a little

00:13:21.220 crotchety for sure, but it's also, it's also healthy. You have to protect yourself. And I'm

00:13:27.320 not saying like from a violent encounter, although that's yes, but you have to protect

00:13:31.220 the balls back at them. Yeah. Shut up. I mean, you have to protect your time and energy. And

00:13:37.480 there you say this a lot. There's a cost to everything. That's a little squishy ball fighting

00:13:43.080 over it. There's a cost of that, you know, being on your, on your phone and you should be watching a

00:13:47.180 game, your kid's game. There's a cost to that. Um, you know, like I, I kind of tease my kids a

00:13:54.120 little bit. I hate when they're kind of out of the stage now of happy meals and kids meals at fast

00:13:59.160 food places, but I hate it because it comes with a stupid little Chinese toy that I'm going to find

00:14:05.780 in two weeks in pieces in the back of my truck. There's a cost associated with it. I don't need all

00:14:11.380 that. I don't want it. I don't need it. It doesn't add anything to my life and we have to protect it

00:14:16.000 ruthlessly. Like I said earlier, so I'm in total agreement, bread and circuses, man,

00:14:19.900 distract the masses. It works. That's why they do it. Yeah. All right. Dustin Stokes. Recently,

00:14:25.580 my kid has been in the, in a dustup with his friends and peers at school related to the current

00:14:30.680 charge of political situation in our nation. He's simply and kindly stated in an opposing position,

00:14:36.800 but the culture of the school is incredibly liberal and it's resulted in a hard situation.

00:14:42.400 We're navigating likely a quick transfer to schools. What advice do you give and how do you coach your

00:14:48.500 teenage kids to navigate, how to stand up for their personal beliefs in their social, social

00:14:53.760 circles, typically at school. I want to coach them. Well, be courageous and confident when needed, but

00:14:59.660 also when, when to hold back and be reserved in their sharing, it's hard enough for adults to have

00:15:06.400 great dialogue about hot button issues, but leading my two boys through situations like this at ages

00:15:12.120 13 and 15 is challenging, curious of your thoughts and approach to lead them well.

00:15:17.940 Yeah. I mean, that's a really thoughtful question. And it sounds like, I don't know if it was this 15

00:15:21.920 or this 13 year old, but Dustin, it sounds like he already is courageous because he, he knew,

00:15:27.480 he knew the social consequences and maybe he's the rebellious one where he knew and he did it because

00:15:32.420 of that. That's also a possibility, especially at that age, like 15, 13 years old, man, they just

00:15:39.680 get in a little tears. By the time they get 15, they start to morph back into normal human beings,

00:15:45.300 but 12, 12, 13, 14, they're just little weirdos to put it, to put it mildly. But no, I think you just

00:15:53.800 set, you sit down, you have those conversations about how to share it respectfully. I would also say

00:15:58.900 you, one thing you should probably coach them on is signals to look for disengagement, right? So

00:16:07.260 if this is maybe a funny analogy, but if I'm out and about, let's say I'm at a sports sports game and

00:16:14.420 I get into an altercation with somebody and I see he's got cauliflower ear, that's probably a signal

00:16:19.180 that I should sit down and shut up. Yeah. Cause now it could be wrong. It could be nothing,

00:16:24.020 but it also could be a real threat that I'm about to get myself into a situation that I don't want

00:16:28.800 to get myself into. Birth defect or dangerous person. One of those two. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

00:16:35.060 So, you know, that I know it's a funny analogy, but the concept is real when people get heated,

00:16:41.240 for example, okay, that's maybe a situation to back up. If it gets violent, if there's potential

00:16:47.520 consequences that you don't want to deal with, maybe refrain from. Um, and also I would, I would

00:16:55.760 introduce him to good men who are stoic and reserved. I mean, do you remember our grandfathers?

00:17:06.540 Men's men, they weren't loud. They weren't vocal. They didn't have an opinion about everything.

00:17:12.880 They didn't feel like they had to express themselves at every turn, but when it came down to it, you know

00:17:19.460 exactly where they stood and you knew they'd stood, they'd stand on wherever they were. Yeah. And so if

00:17:25.560 you have men like that in your life, if you're that kind of man, or they have men in their life that are

00:17:30.620 that kind of men, or you can find historical figures and start talking about that. Like, Hey, look at these

00:17:35.780 people. They're bold, they're courageous, but they're not loud and boisterous and obnoxious.

00:17:40.660 They're principled. They share when it's effective and expedient. And then they don't

00:17:45.500 when it's unnecessary. I think that would be actually a really cool thing to do with your kids.

00:17:50.120 Yeah. No, I haven't done that, but I should do that myself.

00:17:53.040 I love what you said earlier around, you know, the signals. And, and I think one of the signals is

00:17:59.000 why did you share? Not, not that it's like negative. Like I wouldn't go negative time. Like,

00:18:04.760 Hey son, you shouldn't share your opinion because it might offend someone. I'm just saying coach him

00:18:09.840 in understanding his, his, what his desired outcome was. What was your thought process? Oh,

00:18:17.260 well, I was angry. Oh, okay. Like now, now we talk about that a little bit, or I wanted to stand up

00:18:22.820 for it. Okay, great. Like, did it get received? No, it didn't. It made him mad. Okay. Got it. So

00:18:27.320 some people may not receive what you like, just work through the psychology of it. And I think that's

00:18:32.760 really important because what will happen is often we don't voice our opinions or we're not courageous

00:18:38.760 in what we want to share. Why? Because we're operating from this perspective of right and wrong

00:18:45.840 and, and kind of this fear of what people think. Just help him get curious. Hmm. Sometimes when you

00:18:53.220 share, it might connect with people. Guess what happens other times? It doesn't. That's interesting.

00:18:58.460 And it just is. And that's how it works. And you can share and be courageous and, and let go of a

00:19:05.540 little bit of tit for tat. Right? I mean, this idea of tension, right? When we create tension, we get it

00:19:10.740 in return. And so that's always, that's another good psychological lesson for your, for your son to,

00:19:16.680 you know, learn. It's like, man, if I yell my opinion at people, what do they have a tendency to do?

00:19:21.780 Yell in return. Got it. Okay. So being calm about it is probably a more effective way to share my

00:19:28.160 thoughts. And so just help him get internal and understand what, where, where, where, where was

00:19:33.560 that coming from and what was he hoping to accomplish? Yeah. You know, when I, I was younger, I just

00:19:39.040 remember this experience and I can't remember what it was, but a young boy, we're destructive. We break

00:19:44.040 things like we just do. And so I, it was like a, a little car or like a remote control car. It was like

00:19:50.220 something like that. I can't exactly remember. And I, I was really curious about what was inside.

00:19:55.140 So I broke it. I smashed it. And I remember my mom saw it and she's like, what are, what did you do?

00:20:01.440 I said, I wanted to see what was inside, but she's like, but why did you do that? I said, well,

00:20:04.900 cause I was curious, like what was inside. And she's like, okay, let's, Hey, you can be curious about

00:20:12.660 what's inside. That's actually a good, healthy thing. Let's see if we can take it apart without

00:20:18.100 destroying it. And so there were some things that she got me with that. I could actually take apart

00:20:24.280 and figure out little mechanics and robotics and computer like that. I didn't have to break the thing

00:20:29.600 in order to figure out what was going on inside. And I don't know why I just remembered that other

00:20:33.160 than you reminded me, but that's, that's what we need to teach our boys. You, you can be curious. You,

00:20:40.260 you can be interested in things. You can stand on principles, but we don't, we're not going to destroy

00:20:47.180 things because there's a consequence to destroying them. So what is the most effective way to break

00:20:53.160 this down? But I do like what you said, Kip, what's, what's the desired outcome? Why did you do that?

00:20:58.140 And to start listening to his thought process and figuring it out. And you might be able to show

00:21:02.760 him a better way. That was good advice. I love that. You know, I'm hearing your destroy,

00:21:08.760 your destroy, your destroy story. And no joke. I mean, on a farm, there's always like vehicles all over

00:21:15.000 the farm. Right. And my dad had this, this dump truck in the back that we use for when we're

00:21:21.380 hauling silage. And I remember my brother and I, he's just two, three years older than I am. We go

00:21:28.040 back there and we're so stupid. And we're looking at that truck and Brian's like, we should chuck a rock

00:21:35.480 through that front windshield. And I'm like, yeah, that'd be awesome. Like we can see, like see what

00:21:40.680 the glass does. And then we like grab rocks and we just like destroyed the windshield of this

00:21:46.780 perfectly functioning truck. And my dad was like, what were you thinking? And we're like, I,

00:21:52.740 we just want to see the rock go through the glass. We didn't think about anything else. But I was just

00:22:01.160 thinking like, that was not like, I remember that experience cause he was super pissed. Right. And I

00:22:05.380 got really big trouble, but you know how powerful would it have been if he goes, Oh, you want to

00:22:10.640 destroy something? Dude, let's go to the dump and grab some old windshields. Exactly. And let's blow

00:22:17.600 those up. You want to get curious. Let's get curious. Right. And I was like, how great would that have

00:22:23.860 been? I would have still felt bad, right. For ruining the truck, but he would have been embracing

00:22:30.060 something powerful in me versus just making it wrong. Right. In that example. So that's great.

00:22:36.700 Yeah. We're so done. Boys, what were you thinking? I wasn't, I wasn't the answer.

00:22:43.200 We just don't sometimes. Okay. Marcus, Marcus Segura. Okay. When a growing organization wants to

00:22:52.120 protect leadership standards and prevent leadership drift while deliberating, removing a senior

00:22:58.660 coordinating role, how do you distinguish which responsibilities must remain human judgment versus

00:23:06.300 which should be embodied into systems and metrics? In your experience, what is the biggest mistake

00:23:12.580 leaders make when transitioning from person dependent leadership to system dependent leadership?

00:23:19.080 Interesting that he used that phrase. How do you guard against it?

00:23:23.900 I'm actually really curious what you have to say on this one, but I have a couple, just a couple of

00:23:29.620 quick thoughts on this is number one, hire the right people. If you hire the right people, this will be

00:23:36.720 less of an issue because you're not hiring rogue agents who just are going to go off on a tangent and

00:23:42.440 do whatever they want at the, at the mercy of, of the business. But there's a concept that I'm sure a lot

00:23:48.680 of guys are familiar with is it's commander's intent. And if you hire the right people, then you're able

00:23:53.740 to give somebody the intent of what the mission is and then let them know the constraints in which

00:24:00.240 you want them to operate. If I came to you and I said, Kip, I want you to start a, um, a podcast for

00:24:05.620 order of man on Thursday, every Thursday. And, um, the idea is that it's gotta be different than the

00:24:11.920 three we do already. Uh, it's gotta cover these three or four subjects and it's gotta be a little bit

00:24:17.660 in this format. But outside of that, I'd like to see what ideas you have, what you'd be interested

00:24:23.320 in doing, and then come back to the table in a week, in a week or two, present your, present your

00:24:28.080 idea, and then we'll massage it and implement what we both feel is appropriate. That's not systems.

00:24:35.100 That's believing in the right person to do a job within the constraints that you have, because the

00:24:41.180 alternative is you just micromanage everybody and you just piss everybody off. And a great example

00:24:47.560 of that is like, you could go into, uh, go into like a restaurant or something and you ask the

00:24:57.800 server, Hey, I would like to get this meal. And instead of carrots, can I get asparagus?

00:25:05.140 Nope. You can't. The, the process says I can't do it. It's impossible. You can't substitute. You can't

00:25:10.720 like, okay, hold on. Can we be maybe be like a little creative? Like maybe you could just get a

00:25:17.160 side of asparagus and add it to it and just hold the, like, there's a lot that you can do, but when

00:25:22.020 it's only by the system, you don't foster growth in people. You're not giving them any sort of

00:25:30.420 autonomy or authority over their life, which I know you're big on autonomy. And it's one thing that's

00:25:34.960 really important to people in career aspirations. And you're just treating people like they're idiots.

00:25:40.800 Now I would rather, as long as the business doesn't blow up, I would rather one of my people

00:25:47.920 do something a little silly or a little dumb that needs to be course corrected, then feel like I have

00:25:54.780 to manage every single aspect of the thing. So I think systems are great for aligning people,

00:26:01.940 for giving people the expectation for getting them onboarded and familiar with the processes

00:26:09.740 and then letting them have some control and autonomy. If they're the right people gradually

00:26:14.800 too. Right. Cause you might, I wouldn't just say, Hey Kip, I'm just going to give you access to the

00:26:20.740 entire empire of the order of man podcast. Go ahead. Go figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. I fell. I hang

00:26:26.420 myself. Yeah. But I w I would say, Hey, you do one show and you prove to me you can do it. I'm like,

00:26:32.800 cool. You can do that. How about this now? And so you gradually introduce those things. Anyways,

00:26:36.580 that's a lot, but I want to hear what you have to say. Yeah. I mean, number one of the top

00:26:41.000 contributing factors to employee disengagement, which by the way, employee disengagement, like this

00:26:47.200 idea of an employee, not being fully committed, just being compliant, going along to get along.

00:26:52.860 Sometimes we'll use the language like silently quitting. That is a $500 billion productivity

00:27:01.100 problem. It is a massive issue. So you care, you should care about employees being engaged. Now

00:27:10.280 with that said, one of the primary ways that organizations do this is being overly bureaucratic

00:27:16.860 process the shit out of everything. SOPs for everything. Why? Because employees, to your point,

00:27:22.860 loses autonomy, you're managing their behaviors, not outcomes, their behaviors. And then they're so

00:27:31.460 rigid that who ultimately ends up being in control. What does the process, not the person. So what

00:27:38.840 happens is someone asks for carrots. Oh, that doesn't work. So what do we do? Engineer the process

00:27:45.540 more, engineer the process more. And before you know it, you're feeding the Python of control

00:27:50.640 called process that is owning everything. And now people are just cogs in the system, their talents,

00:27:58.860 their innovation, their collaboration, new ideas, all go to the wayside because they're told just to

00:28:05.580 follow process. So you will get the very thing that you're asking for. This is very interesting,

00:28:11.360 especially in the state of AI. So if I have an agent that automates processes within the organization,

00:28:18.140 who's responsible, it needs to be a human. In fact, if I were going to give recommendations to a company

00:28:26.880 that's going to implement AI, I would say you have digital employees and you have human employees,

00:28:33.420 digital employees, they report to someone. If I have five digital agents that run processes,

00:28:38.360 I'm still responsible for the outcome of those processes. If I'm not, who is? The agent?

00:28:45.340 So if it breaks, oh, well, you know, fix the process. It needs to be a human that's responsible

00:28:53.640 for the outcomes of things. Processes and guidelines are just guide rails and guides to help us be

00:29:02.580 effective and mitigate the mundane. But man, I would highly recommend that most SOPs should really

00:29:09.500 be guides and they double down on the outcome and how you get there. Here's the guide. But if you find

00:29:16.060 a better way, do it. And this is why people love startups, by the way, major uncertainty working

00:29:22.200 for a startup. Who knows if this is going to work? Maybe it won't, but people love it. Why?

00:29:28.420 Because they have autonomy and there's innovation happening. Why? Because the Python of control

00:29:34.360 hasn't shown up yet in that company and they have freedoms to do things and they're hyper agile and

00:29:41.700 effective. Why? Because we haven't done this to them. We haven't become overly bureaucratic. So I'd

00:29:46.320 be very, very careful, Marcus, in this quest or this idea of moving leadership to a system versus a

00:29:54.960 person. I would never do it, to be frank. I mean, we see it. We see it even in Iron Council. Like

00:30:00.420 one random situation comes up and everybody's like, it's not in the SOP. I'm like, good gosh,

00:30:06.760 settle down. Like it's one thing that we couldn't account for. Is it accounted in the SOP somewhere?

00:30:13.180 Yeah, probably. But like the world's not going to fall apart. Like we're going to address it. We

00:30:18.240 know the principles. We know what we're trying to accomplish. We know what our mission is. And let's

00:30:22.300 figure out the best way to do it and have faith that your people can figure it out. And also this is

00:30:27.080 important too. Make sure that you have, you have an open line of communication, not only with them

00:30:36.260 being able to share with you, but the way you receive things because you want them to communicate

00:30:40.460 with you. So Kip, if you're doing something and you're like, Hey Ryan, I did this thing and I

00:30:44.800 made a dumb decision and it went sideways a little bit. I need, I need to build enough trust with you

00:30:51.780 that you can come to me and tell me that. Or conversely, something works like, Hey Ryan,

00:30:57.240 I did this thing. You gave me a little leeway. I ran with it. I hope it's okay, but it worked.

00:31:03.060 Here's what happened. I'm like, sweet. I want to know about that. Now we can implement that

00:31:07.000 company wide. Right? So you have to have that line of communication open. But to your point about the,

00:31:11.880 um, the, uh, the SOP stuff, when I was doing financial planning, part of the reason that I left the

00:31:18.680 company that I was originally with is for this very reason. I w I, I went on a podcast one time

00:31:26.200 and I got chewed out for going on a podcast because the company had a compliant, uh, compliance

00:31:33.140 department and the compliance department was mad at me because I didn't run any sort of like

00:31:38.320 predetermined questions through them. I'm like, I'm going on somebody's podcast. I don't know what

00:31:42.000 they're going to ask me. And then they wanted me to script out what I would say and document it all

00:31:47.420 and write it all down. And so, you know, I played that game for a while. Cause that's what I was

00:31:51.280 supposed to do. I put together marketing materials that were well within the moral

00:31:55.900 ramifications of, of advertising and all of that. And the company would come back and say,

00:32:00.940 you need to change that color from this blue to this off blue. And you need to say this word

00:32:07.680 instead of that word, even though they're synonymous, it was just a nightmare, especially for somebody

00:32:12.700 like me who's enterprising, who's creative, who wants to go out and like make something.

00:32:20.720 And finally I just said, I'm out. I'm out. What are you trying to do? You're just trying to be

00:32:25.420 successful, which benefits the company and they're making it harder for you to do it.

00:32:31.340 Right. And I finally just said, Hey, I'm out. There was other reasons too, but that was a big

00:32:36.500 factor for me and going out to start because, and guess what I did when I started my company

00:32:41.020 started the, uh, the wealth anatomy podcast, which was really, really successful in generating

00:32:48.080 business and revenue. And then that actually led to order of man, which is insanely successful over

00:32:55.100 the past 11 years. What would it have been like if instead of hamstringing me, that company said, Hey,

00:33:04.000 we actually acknowledge some, some aptitude here, a skillset, you come help us manage this. Let's

00:33:12.440 build something out. Let's, let's run some, let's try it. Let's experiment. What could that have turned

00:33:17.680 into in revenue, in growth, in future opportunities, if they would have just let somebody run with it a

00:33:24.940 little bit? Totally. Totally. Yeah. I, I did an exit interview for an employee, you know, a while ago

00:33:32.680 and it was so profound. And, and what he said is, is sums up the risk. Um, let me be clear here first,

00:33:41.080 highly effective. He was highly effective. He was a rockstar. His team was a rockstar from a metrics

00:33:47.520 perspective. He's winning in all areas. Like this is the last person that you restrict. And in our

00:33:56.360 conversation, he says, you know, what's frustrating kit. He's like, I just want the same thing that

00:34:03.620 company wanted. And he's like, and you know what the hardest, the, the biggest obstacle I had during my

00:34:10.100 employment, he says, was the company. And I'm like, that is what we're talking about. Don't be that

00:34:20.020 company that hog ties. All the employees diminishes their value makes them feel disempowered. And while

00:34:27.320 you're at it, ruin your company's effectiveness all in the spirit of control. Right? Yeah. Wild

00:34:36.280 command and control, baby command and control. All right. Christopher Tanner. I see men in the

00:34:43.680 evangelical church who pray, attend services and talk out about emotions, yet avoid physical

00:34:50.540 hardships, discipline, and doing hard things. Church culture praises vulnerability while neglecting

00:34:57.000 strength, endurance, and obedience lived out through action. Men live comfortable, compromised

00:35:03.060 lives, and still call it faith. Is the modern church producing soft men? And how do we call other men

00:35:10.760 faith towards strength, discipline, and hard obedience without compromising biblical truth

00:35:16.260 or turning to Christianity into comfort and affirmation rather than challenge, correction,

00:35:22.140 and accountability? Well, these are really good questions. These are good ones today. And

00:35:27.700 challenge, correction, discipline, obedience, those aren't antithetical to biblical principles. Those

00:35:35.240 are biblical principles. Like we've been commanded to be obedient. We've been, we're, we're held

00:35:41.700 accountable. Uh, we, we are supposed to be disciplined. We're supposed to give, like, these are all things

00:35:48.580 that men do. The problem with modern churches is they've been heavily feminized by the doctrine of popular

00:35:54.660 culture, which is a doctrine of ease and comfort. And here's the biggest culprit. This idea that the,

00:36:02.460 the, the ultimate end in a person's life is to be happy. So what ends up happening is go live your

00:36:15.220 life. Go do, go love who you love, be who you want to be, identify how you want to identify. Don't have

00:36:20.320 responsibility. Don't have obligations. Don't have kids because that's going to hinder your, your

00:36:25.100 happiness. Go on vacation, go on trips. That's the doctrine of popular culture telling everybody that the

00:36:30.980 main objective of life is to be happy instead of being fulfilled. Fulfillment is about responsibility.

00:36:38.560 We have a responsibility, even from a biblical perspective. Our responsibility is to learn of

00:36:45.520 him, to have a relationship with him, to return to him and to help other people do the same. That is our

00:36:52.060 calling. So we need to stop letting church be run by women. And I, I know that's going to sound

00:37:00.960 like it's a knock and it's not. And I'll explain what I mean. And we need to not allow churches to

00:37:06.980 be run by feminine men. If you, if you go to a church and there's a feminine pastor, run from that

00:37:16.440 church. He's not going to hold you accountable. He's not going to challenge you. He's not going to preach

00:37:23.640 the Bible the way that it is actually written. He's going to make everything soft, everything weak,

00:37:28.900 everything pathetic, and everything watered down. I had a pastor when I was in Maine with the church and

00:37:35.260 I, I thought so highly of the guy. I mean, he was incredible, but he was confrontational.

00:37:42.860 He was adversarial, not, not a negative or, or evil way, but he challenged people. He challenged

00:37:50.800 the doctrine of popular culture. He held to that standard. He expected high things of the men and

00:37:56.720 women in his congregation. He took responsibility for them. And because of that, he expected a lot

00:38:03.300 from them and people stepped up in really, really powerful ways. That's the kind of church you want

00:38:07.760 to belong to. Look at the leadership. Is the leadership soft, weak, and pathetic, or is it strong,

00:38:13.880 disciplined, capable, focused, action oriented? That's who Christ was. Christ was not soft and weak

00:38:22.220 and feminine. He was masculine. He went out and served people. He sacrificed. He gave the ultimate

00:38:29.320 sacrifice. He expected high things of his disciples. He challenged them. He held them accountable when

00:38:36.620 they messed up. That's who we're supposed to be like. So let's be like that. Yeah. The one thing that

00:38:43.980 come to mind that you said is, you know, fulfillment. And, and I think it's this lie. It's not a lie.

00:38:50.740 It's just like, we're, we're, we're not thinking through this, you know, and I know Ryan and everyone

00:38:56.280 listening that growth is on the backside of what discomfort difficulty. Yeah.

00:39:03.600 But, but, but yet our quest is what be happy, be comfortable. That doesn't even make sense. It's in direct

00:39:13.980 conflict with the idea of progression and growth. So we need to, we need to stop the conversations and,

00:39:20.460 and, and flip the script that one of the ways that we have fulfillment in life is through growth.

00:39:27.100 And that's through the backside of doing difficult things. I love this. Like, I love this correlation

00:39:35.860 from a, from a Christian perspective. If you look at learning principles, like concepts around how

00:39:43.380 people learn and how it correlates to the repentance process, they're one in the same.

00:39:50.820 Repentance isn't about not, and this is a Kipism. So everyone's going to get mad with me as maybe,

00:39:56.220 but like repentance isn't about like, Oh, um, I'm forgiven. I actually don't think that's like,

00:40:03.480 that's the bite. Like that's the, another by-product. You know what it's about? It's

00:40:07.560 about growth. I made a mistake. I deal in reality. I find my space in it. I took responsibility for the

00:40:15.580 role that I played in. I recommit and I change and I grow and I become a better person. That's the

00:40:20.460 point of it. And there wouldn't be growth without sin, without mistakes, without hardship.

00:40:28.320 So I don't know. I, I, at the foundation of this question, it's like so much of this

00:40:33.900 happy comfort is shrouding this idea that, that, um, there's growth somehow without difficulty and we

00:40:42.660 need to embrace it and, and change our mindset of how we see it.

00:40:45.440 Yeah. I was writing some things down here. A couple of things that came to mind, like happiness

00:40:50.480 is interesting. We've talked about that a little bit. I've talked about that at length. And I just

00:40:54.340 had this, this thought, as you were saying that this is what I wrote. We can riff on it a little

00:40:58.260 bit, but happiness is not something you achieve. It's something that you are or are not. Like I know

00:41:04.180 people who are in some of the most difficult, horrific circumstances, tragic backgrounds and

00:41:08.920 upbringings, and they're the happiest people. It's not something they achieved. It's just something

00:41:13.500 they are. They're just happy. And you can be happy in any given moment. If you, if you question that,

00:41:19.340 go read man's search for meaning by Viktor Frankl. Um, and then I wrote another thing down here because

00:41:24.920 I didn't want to just leave this on a, maybe a sour note. When I say church is being run by women,

00:41:30.520 it's important that we understand why that is. This is not a knock against women. And I want to be

00:41:35.680 very clear about that. But generally speaking, women are not equipped the same way men are when it

00:41:42.500 comes to holding people accountable, when it comes to challenging other people, when it comes to being

00:41:49.440 confrontational when necessary. Uh, that's not, that's not a, not typically a feminine thing. It's not a

00:41:58.420 feminine quality. It doesn't mean they're inferior or less. It doesn't that those are masculine qualities.

00:42:03.640 Feminine qualities are this softness in the best way possible. I'm not saying soft and weak. I'm

00:42:09.560 saying softness, softness, nurturing, empathetic, kind, relational, collaborative. These are things

00:42:21.060 that women are, and it's beautiful, but it's not conducive to pushing people to confront their

00:42:28.380 hardship. Men are directional. We are going forward and we are attacking or defending, but we're looking

00:42:35.160 out. Women are relational. We bond together. We find common interest. We care about each other.

00:42:41.800 We support and nurture and grow and love on each other. That's good. We want that, but that's not

00:42:47.580 the same role required for somebody leading a congregation of people who are to be accountable

00:42:53.160 to their faith. Yeah, I see that. That's a good, good distinction. All right. Joe Hicken. I have a son

00:43:01.940 heading into high school next year. He has done very well. Excels in sports. Actually, let me pause

00:43:07.120 for a second. I'm sorry. We have to say something around Dustin. Like I'm going back to Dustin's

00:43:14.500 question about his kid in high school. By the way, this is why the public school system's a joke.

00:43:19.920 And as parents, we got to be super careful where we're placing our kids, right? Like Dustin, you

00:43:26.840 could coach your kid about being expressive and, you know, his peers see things differently all you

00:43:31.920 want, right? But depending on the size and the pressure of that environment, that might be a tall

00:43:39.300 order to ask your kid to be around, to stand up and courageously. I mean, we talk about this. Surround

00:43:46.400 yourself around like-minded people. Why? So I don't have to be courageous all the time and just

00:43:50.360 constantly be hitting my head against the wall with all these morons. So what do I do? I surround

00:43:56.000 myself around like-minded people yet. Our kids, I don't know. We'll just throw them in the public

00:44:00.220 school and be courageous, son. Good luck, right? That's, that's a tough call. So I wanted to say

00:44:07.720 that earlier that came to mind, but it just, I don't know. It's a tough, what's your thoughts about

00:44:11.820 this? I know you homeschool your kids and have, so maybe some additional thoughts for Dustin there.

00:44:18.220 Well, first I want to say my ex homeschools, like I want to give her credit where credit is too. I

00:44:23.500 don't, you know, I'm involved in their growth and learning, but she, she carries the more than lion

00:44:28.580 share of that work. And I want to be honest about that. But one thing that you often hear people say

00:44:34.900 when, when you bring up this argument that you're talking about right now is they'll say, well,

00:44:39.480 I want him to be exposed to new ideas. I want him to be, be there where he is challenged and

00:44:47.560 he, he does see different points of view and okay, that's, that's valid, but you want that in

00:44:55.740 controlled environments. Like I would never say that, Hey, you know what? Um, my, my kids are likely

00:45:03.800 to encounter open water at some point. So they're going to need to know how to swim. So before they

00:45:10.420 even have the muscle development to be able to swim, I just toss them into the deep end and say,

00:45:14.660 Hey, I just, they need to figure it out. Like they're going to be exposed to water. They need

00:45:19.400 to figure it out. No, that's not what you do. What do you do? You, you bring them in with you.

00:45:24.640 You're holding them. You, you like, you hold them out while they kind of swim and kick their legs,

00:45:28.440 but you're not letting them go. Eventually you start getting them into swimming lessons and then

00:45:32.380 you have them stay in the shallow end and then they can get a little deeper. And then you go to

00:45:35.660 the lake and you gradually introduce them to a skillset that they'll need to combat or deal with

00:45:42.300 real world situations. That's not what happens at school. What happens is you just drop them off

00:45:51.060 for eight to nine hours a day, five days a week without any skillset, without any idea of how to

00:46:04.440 defend themselves, uh, intellectually to authority figures, right? Cause they've been taught to respect

00:46:13.920 their elders. So now they're in an authority figure situation and the teacher says, whatever they're

00:46:19.140 going to say, okay, I guess I'm mom and dad said, I'm supposed to respect them. So I don't challenge.

00:46:25.240 I can't push back on that. You're not, you're not introducing them to new ideas. You're throwing

00:46:31.020 them to the wolves. So look, I get that the majority of children are going to be educated publicly. And I

00:46:41.360 can see that there was a need for some of that. And this is where the, some of the gray comes in.

00:46:45.080 But if you're sending your kids to public school, you damn well better be vested in their education

00:46:52.020 with conversations around the dinner table, conversations in the morning, extracurricular

00:46:57.320 activities in the evening, going to teacher con, knowing who the teachers are, being involved in PTA

00:47:02.920 and, and, uh, uh, booster clubs, like be in coaching, be involved because if the teacher's

00:47:11.400 voice becomes the loudest voice more than likely again, because of the doctrine of popular culture,

00:47:16.780 it's going to be a dangerous voice to listen to. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for, thanks for let me go back

00:47:22.400 to that and, and adding that to commentary. Yeah, it's a really good. All right. All right. Back to Joe

00:47:27.000 Hicken. I have a son heading into high school next year. He has done very well, excels in sports and

00:47:32.280 school top in his class. Uh, uh, literally I feel like he hasn't been challenged very much at this

00:47:38.820 public school and I'm starting to look at different options. He isn't really passionate in anything in

00:47:43.400 particular, just does his work. He is very responsible and overall great attitude. So how do

00:47:49.060 I help him find his passion so that I can put him in the right classes and school activities that

00:47:55.380 will prepare him for his future? I mean, you probably, if he's, you probably know what he's

00:48:01.960 excited about. Like I've never met a kid who's not excited about something. Maybe it's drawing,

00:48:07.140 maybe it's, maybe it's video games, maybe it's shoes, maybe it's cars, maybe it's sports, maybe

00:48:11.700 it's girls. I don't know. It could be anything. I've never met a kid who isn't interested in

00:48:14.920 something. So explore those things and really lean into them. And what I found is that when your kids

00:48:21.460 know you care about them because you invest, that's really where the relationship starts to

00:48:26.600 build. When I was, when, when my oldest son was really young, he wanted to be a cowboy animal

00:48:32.060 doctor. That's what he said he wanted to be. And I knew a couple of vets in the area. And so I called

00:48:36.800 the veterinarians and I said, Hey, my son's really interested in working with animals. He was like

00:48:41.720 nine or 10 at the time. He's really interested. Can we just come shadow you for an hour or two?

00:48:47.500 Like, I didn't even know if that was a thing, if I could even ask that, but I figured if I don't ask,

00:48:52.240 then I'm not going to get it. And I had two vets are like, yeah, that'd be great. We'd love to have

00:48:55.320 him come in. And one of the vets, Dr. Witwer here in, in town. Um, he said, yeah, bring him in. So we went

00:49:02.060 in and, uh, we had to, let's see, he extracted some teeth on a dog. We watched, uh, we had to

00:49:11.720 give a pill to a cat, which was hilarious. Cause the cat was like, not like anything to do with

00:49:17.660 that. Um, I think that he spayed or neutered, uh, another dog like, and Brecken was there for all of

00:49:24.520 it. Yeah. That's what we should be doing as parents is fostering the things that they're interested in.

00:49:30.200 You know, my, my second son loves cars, just loves cars, exotic cars, fast cars. And so for one year

00:49:38.720 for his birthday, we went down to Vegas and I went to the speedway, the racetrack to rent a car. So

00:49:44.980 we could just race it around the track. Cool. Yeah. And he was too light at the time. So like,

00:49:48.900 sorry, he's too light. I'm like, really? And he was really disappointed. And I was like, you know

00:49:52.920 what? Let's just go to the exotic car rental place. We're in Vegas. So let's just go to the car rental

00:49:57.520 place. And we did, and we rented something. I don't know. I'm not into cars, but he is. And I made it

00:50:04.320 known that I'm into what he's into. So we got this exotic car and we went, uh, South of Vegas and just

00:50:10.480 took a side scenic road and just opened it up. It was amazing. And it was the highlight of his life

00:50:16.720 at that point, you know? So lean into what, if he's showing any interest in anything, if he, let's say

00:50:23.200 he likes to draw, like he likes to doodle. It's like, you know what? Get him a real notepad, like a real

00:50:28.280 artist pad, get him a nice set of pencils and say, Hey, that's awesome. Like try it with ease.

00:50:34.320 Or do it with him. Maybe you want to try some new things. This is the cool thing about kids is

00:50:38.520 like, maybe you want to try jujitsu. Cool. Do it with your kids. Maybe you want to learn how to fix

00:50:43.180 cars. Cool. Do it with your kids. Maybe you want to learn how to paint. Do it with your kids. Um,

00:50:48.280 my oldest, again, uh, Brecken, a lot of people know who he is, but he, um, he, he likes photography.

00:50:54.200 He's really good at photography. So I called Todd Van Fleet, who's done a lot of work with us,

00:50:58.180 a good guy. And I said, Hey man, what kind of camera do we need? He's like, I'm actually selling a

00:51:01.740 bunch of old, old stuff that I'm, that up, cause I'm upgrading. If you guys are interested,

00:51:05.300 I'll give you a good deal on this stuff. And we probably spent $2,000 or so on camera equipment.

00:51:09.900 And he takes pictures for the teams. He does proms. He did a wedding. Um, now I take pictures

00:51:15.640 for the lacrosse team and we edit them, uh, to get, well, I say, edit them together. He edits them.

00:51:20.560 I watch him do it. Um, but like, that's the kind of stuff we should be doing. And that's how you

00:51:26.100 foster new ideas and new interests with your kids. Totally. I had a similar conversation with someone

00:51:32.080 a few months ago. And the idea came up that do your kids see you going after your passions?

00:51:38.500 Do they see you trying new things? Cause that will make it safe for him, right? If we're staying in

00:51:46.080 our lane and playing it safe and we're not going out, then they're going to, a lot of kids will

00:51:51.420 model what you do. But if you find yourself, if you're out trying new things and experimenting and

00:51:58.820 growing passions, whether they're work related or it's what needs to get done and it's just for fun,

00:52:04.780 then you're going to foster that in him as well. So maybe, maybe some personal reflection from your

00:52:09.920 perspective of like, does he know what your passions are? Does he see you trying new things?

00:52:15.840 And maybe that's the encouragement he needs. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. All right. Last question.

00:52:22.080 One more. Yep. Okay. Uh, Joel Berkey, I catch a lot of criticism for being a blue collar dad who has

00:52:29.060 to travel for work. Some people say that being away means I'm not a present father while others say

00:52:34.760 I'm doing what a good dad does by providing. How do you define being present as a father when

00:52:40.640 providing for your family requires time away? Yeah, that's a good, that's a really good question.

00:52:47.660 Cause I mean, obviously being present, when you say that we, most of the time we're talking about

00:52:52.240 physical presence and that is true. Make sure I would say this, make sure you are on top of your

00:52:57.460 shit at work because when you are home, which is maybe the weekends or every couple of weeks,

00:53:02.760 you need to be fully, fully present more so than the average guy I would say. Yeah. Um, but I think

00:53:08.920 there's a lot of other ways that you can be present when your kids have things going on. Like I don't

00:53:13.140 see my kids every day just because of the nature of the custody arrangement and all of that. So I don't

00:53:17.440 see them every day, just about, but not every day. Um, today, my two oldest boys, uh, they left early

00:53:22.860 this morning cause they had some school they needed to get done. And then they're heading down

00:53:26.280 to Vegas. I can't go to Vegas today to watch them play, but you better believe they're getting a

00:53:30.780 message from me to say, Hey guys, good luck today. Call me tonight and let me know how it goes or send

00:53:36.860 me a picture or tell me what the score was or whatever. And then I'll follow up with them and

00:53:41.040 ask them how it went. Same thing with my daughter. If she's got a dance recital, I go to the dance

00:53:45.000 recital. I get her flowers. I tell her she looked great. You know, I watched it. I watched her

00:53:48.860 performance. I'll watch the videos. I do all of that stuff. Um, videos obviously are big

00:53:54.620 staying in touch on the phone and then also look at your communication. I don't know how old your

00:53:59.500 kids are, but the weakest form of communication that we, that we use, I guess would be maybe a

00:54:06.180 letter would like be the weakest form. Then it would go to text would be maybe a little bit better

00:54:11.220 because it's more real time. Um, then it would go to FaceTime and then it would go to personal

00:54:18.240 interaction and where personal interaction is lacking. Go to the next best thing. FaceTime

00:54:23.020 all the time with your kids, you know, get, get on the phone with them and say, Hey guys,

00:54:27.500 let's FaceTime. I'm going to show you this really cool thing. We're working on at work

00:54:29.980 or Hey, Hey son, you built that Lego. Let's get on FaceTime. Show me the Lego. I want to see it.

00:54:35.540 And that's how you'd be engaged using the different communication styles. That's what I would do

00:54:40.040 if I wasn't as, as physically present as I want to be. Yeah. I think the important thing to note,

00:54:46.160 Joel, and you may not want to hear this, um, is you being away? Is it more difficult to be present?

00:54:52.740 Yes, absolutely. It is. Of course. Of course. So this isn't a black and white, like, Oh no,

00:54:57.780 I'm a prison dad. No, actually you being away is not what's best and probably ideal for your

00:55:03.480 situation. Period. Now with that said, what are you going to do about it? All right. I'm going to

00:55:10.460 be extra present when I can, but, but this isn't a black and white, like, no, I'm providing for my

00:55:15.220 family or no, I can't. I'm not. Both can be completely true. And we, we have a tendency

00:55:21.380 to operate this way. We're right. We're not dealing with reality. Your situation is difficult.

00:55:25.440 Absolutely. And, and so now you're going to have to rise to the occasion and do an extra, uh, more

00:55:31.220 and, um, be extra present when, when you can be to make up for it. Yeah. I mean, little, little Timmy,

00:55:39.940 when he hits his first home run and you're not there is not thinking, well, you know what?

00:55:46.520 I know dad wasn't here, but he's out providing and working for our family. Like, that's not what

00:55:51.160 he's thinking. And I know it's hard to hear because you're doing what you need to do. And I actually

00:55:56.420 respect that. I respect the fact that you're getting out there and doing what you need to do

00:56:00.980 to put a roof over the head and food on the table. But I like what you said, Kip, it's not ideal.

00:56:06.720 And so you need to be extra on your game and we gave you some ways to do that. So I hope it helps.

00:56:12.940 Yeah, absolutely. All right, gentlemen, band with us. Uh, you can connect with us on Facebook. Also

00:56:18.660 connect with Mickler on the socials at Ryan Mickler, both Twitter and Instagram. Um, and then the men's

00:56:25.600 forge, uh, go to the men's forge.com, uh, to sign up. This is a, an event in April. Um, the dates,

00:56:34.240 I don't have them handy. April 23rd, 26th. Yep. That's right. Excellent. Yeah. It's going to be

00:56:39.440 amazing guys. And we just talked with, I know a lot of guys who listen to this podcast are probably

00:56:43.440 F3 guys, which is, I think they're international at this point and they get together as men and talk

00:56:48.620 and work out and everything else. The CEO, his name's Frank Schwartz. He goes by dark helmet. Uh,

00:56:54.260 he is going to be there to present at the forge as well, which I'm very, very excited about having

00:56:59.920 him out. So again, April 23rd through the 26th, the men's forge.com. All right, guys, Kip,

00:57:06.420 appreciate you. Like you said, great questions today. Some, some, um, some unique ones, some

00:57:10.980 ones that I don't think we've really tackled before. So that was cool. All right, guys,

00:57:15.060 hopefully we gave you some good answers and some things to ponder on and chew on and maybe

00:57:18.320 implement in your life. Uh, we will be back on Friday until then go out there, take action

00:57:22.520 and become a man. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge

00:57:29.280 of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order

00:57:33.600 at order of man.com.

Order of Man - February 11, 2026

Signal to Noise Ratio, Protecting Leadership Standards, and Why Curiosity Wins ｜ ASK ME ANYTHING

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