Order of Man - SIMMO ｜ A Primer on Testosterone

00:00:00.340 Testosterone is a hormone that all men are familiar with at this point. It's become a

00:00:04.020 very hot topic and whether or not to increase testosterone naturally or with testosterone

00:00:09.360 replacement therapy, also known as TRT, it has become an increasingly debated question.

00:00:15.660 Testosterone is recognized as the hormone to improve energy, muscle mass, overall health,

00:00:20.800 and vitality, and also personal performance. My guest today, Simo, is a man who has become

00:00:25.640 immersed in the world of improving testosterone rates in men and also male optimization. Today,

00:00:31.840 we talk about the key strategies of boosting testosterone naturally, at what point a man

00:00:36.720 should consider TRT, what function of the body, if not improved, hinders the processing of

00:00:42.820 testosterone, how your workout might be hindering the production of testosterone, what role the

00:00:48.600 nervous system plays in hormone optimization, and how a brotherhood of men is an often overlooked

00:00:53.920 factor of overall male health. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace

00:00:59.120 your fears and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time,

00:01:05.080 every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life.

00:01:12.340 This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done,

00:01:18.100 you can call yourself a man. Men, welcome to the Order of Man podcast. I've got a very

00:01:25.020 important discussion today and one that continues to get brought up in the Facebook group and Instagram

00:01:30.960 and Twitter and everywhere that we're putting our content out there. So I'm looking forward to

00:01:36.020 talking with you about testosterone because this is an issue. If you get right, if you get this dialed in,

00:01:41.840 will improve every single aspect of your life. There's the right way to do it. There's the wrong way to

00:01:47.900 do it. And then there's also somewhere in between. So we'll talk a lot about that today with a great

00:01:51.960 guest today. Before I get into it, just want to mention, we're getting close to shutting the doors

00:01:56.640 on the Iron Council. We usually only open up four times a year and we leave it open for about 14 days

00:02:03.340 and we are quickly approaching the 14 day mark. We're going to close at the end of this month.

00:02:08.700 So we talk a little bit in this conversation about the importance of good men in your corner.

00:02:13.620 But one thing I found is that men are having a very difficult time

00:02:16.940 finding other high quality, motivated, ambitious, capable men, excuse me, and those who are actually

00:02:23.220 willing to invest in you who want to grow themselves. So we've put together this incredible

00:02:28.460 program over almost 10 years now, working together, banding together, using tools, holding each other

00:02:34.720 accountable. And I would love to have as many of you there as possible. It's at orderofman.com

00:02:39.540 slash iron council. Also just want to do a shout out or give a shout out to my close friends and

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00:03:04.180 quality knife. I was at the football game, uh, the other day and one of the parents needed a knife

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00:03:24.300 very useful, not only for me, but for them as well. So make sure you have a good knife, go to

00:03:28.320 montananifecompany.com and then use the code order of man at checkout, because you're going to save some

00:03:32.860 money when you do again, montananifecompany.com use the code order of man guys. Let me introduce you

00:03:38.680 to my guest. He goes by Simo. And I was introduced to his work on Twitter. Uh, when I asked the men

00:03:43.920 there who they'd recommend to join me on the podcast to talk all things, testosterone. And since then

00:03:50.300 I've done a deep dive into his work and he is helping men all over the world, optimize their home

00:03:55.040 hormone levels. In fact, Simo has helped over 100 men personally in just the last 18 months on how to

00:04:02.720 reclaim their masculine vigor using simple and sustainable and also natural testosterone

00:04:09.640 optimization, uh, levels and, and, uh, factors today. He's here to talk with us about how to do

00:04:15.740 exactly that. Simo, what's up brother. Glad to have you on the podcast. I was asking a bunch of people

00:04:22.240 about who I should talk with about boosting testosterone. And I wasn't familiar with your

00:04:26.860 work ahead of time, but I had a lot of people suggest that I should reach out to you. So I'm glad we

00:04:31.480 could make this work. Yeah. Great to be on Ryan. Looking forward to it. How did you, uh, how did

00:04:36.160 you get into this work? Is it something that you, I know you're a, you're a cancer survivor,

00:04:40.260 if I understand it, it has to do with that. A lot of the times people find their path through the

00:04:45.340 challenges and hardships that they deal with in life. It was, that was the key catalyst. That was

00:04:50.360 a key catalyst. So 10 years ago, I got testicular cancer, um, and I was 20 at the time. And, uh,

00:04:56.500 it, um, that sent me down a path because it knocked me so badly. I then had to, um, find

00:05:05.280 a way to try and cultivate vitality, uh, naturally because the, the system or the conventional ways

00:05:11.720 of doing things just didn't, they, they kept letting me down, um, despite my best efforts

00:05:16.500 and despite their best intentions. So, um, there was five or six years of navigating and weaving

00:05:23.220 through these different, uh, pieces of advice or, or, or, or specialist consults on hormones,

00:05:30.380 health, all the rest of it. And nothing seemed to give me the, the sustainable results that I

00:05:34.380 was looking for. And, um, that's how I kind of, that was kind of the key basis of, of what I built

00:05:39.580 the system on now was kind of that journey of being so disenfranchised with the whole experience

00:05:44.900 I had then. So now, um, to now being inspired and, and empowered with, with the system that I have

00:05:51.520 now that, that helps me with my own bigger day to day, but now I'm coaching guys on that as well.

00:05:57.900 Yeah. When you say the conventional way of doing things, I assume, tell me if I'm wrong,

00:06:03.000 you're talking about modern and, you know, Western medicine, which is just give you a pill,

00:06:08.100 give you a medication and, you know, hopefully we can solve your problems that way.

00:06:11.680 Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. You know, I went and saw one of the best, um, uh, hormone

00:06:17.420 specialists at the time I was in London and spent thousands of dollars on this guy. And we had a,

00:06:21.560 I had a blood test done and my testosterone levels came back at zero and which was obviously quite

00:06:26.300 alarming. So, so, but rather than, rather than, rather than dig deeper immediately, his kind of

00:06:33.100 default knee jerk reaction was, Oh, we need to put you on TRT and hormone replacement therapy.

00:06:38.020 And I was kind of a bit like, wow, like that was, that's quite quick to make really quick. And,

00:06:44.700 um, I, I actually suggested, can we get another test just to make sure it's not an anomaly.

00:06:49.140 And, um, we got another test done and it turned out my testosterone levels were, they were lower

00:06:54.180 than ideal, but I had more testosterone than we initially thought. And that was when the kind of

00:06:58.720 the, the penny dropped or I had that epiphany moment of like, Hmm, like if he's draw, if he's

00:07:04.900 jumping to the conclusions as quickly as that to some pretty life-changing, um, uh, decisions,

00:07:10.720 then like, I wonder, like it, it just made me very, um, skeptical about the whole process or

00:07:18.600 the whole basis from which he was, uh, approaching my case with, and that's what kind of ignited, uh,

00:07:25.860 a light in my mind around, Hmm, maybe there's another way to do this. So that's when I kind of

00:07:30.280 went down my, had my pursuits into all things natural and, and all things, um, kind of testosterone

00:07:36.960 optimization from a, from a natural standpoint. Yeah. Do you think when, when you have doctors

00:07:42.940 that, that take this route, like you're talking about, and there's countless stories of things

00:07:47.160 like this, that it's, it's, is it laziness? Is it ignorance? Is it appealing to special interests?

00:07:54.780 Like what exactly is happening that a doctor who has certain oaths that he takes not to harm people

00:08:02.200 wouldn't look at these natural ways of, of healing themselves?

00:08:06.960 You know what? It's a great question. It's a great question because I, I, I like to think,

00:08:11.020 or I like to tell myself that any doctor or any physician or anyone in the kind of medical field

00:08:16.060 is doing things, uh, with good intentions and in good faith. And I, and I, I do for the most part,

00:08:21.120 I agree. I, I, I believe that. I do believe that. I don't think there's anyone, uh, trying to be

00:08:25.820 deliberately sinister or, or untoward. Um, however, I think the problem is, is that part of a, what I

00:08:31.500 would argue a, I don't, I don't, I don't want to say a broken system, but I think it's, it's not a,

00:08:38.620 it's a, it's a symptom management system. It's not a preventative healthcare system or model.

00:08:44.160 And therefore, given the insurance ties and everything that all the, um, bureaucracy and

00:08:51.580 all the red tape within those, within those domains, you know, they, their hand, their hands

00:08:55.800 are tied, you know, and I've spoken to guys before about, um, doctors or physicians before where they

00:09:02.340 kind of, they kind of allude to the fact that they want to recommend certain things that, that I talk

00:09:07.460 about, but they can't because they're just not insured or they're not protected against it because

00:09:11.260 the system won't let them. So I, I, I, I believe it's an old paradigm. I really think it's not

00:09:17.420 allopathic medicine, which all the conventional way of doing things is part of an old paradigm.

00:09:20.960 And I think things are now shifting. People are realizing that holistic health or functional

00:09:25.360 medicine or whatever you want to call it is, is really where you get, um, real shifts in your

00:09:31.260 vitality and health. Um, from, from a preventative standpoint, I don't want to poo poo conventional.

00:09:38.080 I think it has a great place for like emergency care. I think it's phenomenal.

00:09:41.260 You know, I think it has, clearly it works in some contexts. I think in preventative context

00:09:47.000 and in some contexts that you and I talking about, I think it's dreadful. I think it's,

00:09:50.080 I think it's, it's not right. Yeah. I mean, I imagine with your cancer treatments, I I'm,

00:09:55.520 I'm assuming you went through chemo and treatments and things like this. Is that accurate or,

00:10:00.360 you know, you know what I actually had it as he, as, as cancer goes, I had it pretty easy,

00:10:04.800 uh, in the sense of, I, I actually had a, I mean, I had a testicle removed, not, not that that was

00:10:10.200 easy, but, um, I didn't have chemo and I didn't get subjected to all of the radiotherapy that can

00:10:15.780 be, um, that's, that can, that can you live with for a long time. Um, and it can be pretty toxic.

00:10:23.320 It's not as if, you know, you go through those procedures and then, you know, you, you overcome

00:10:27.220 it and then you're, you're good. You know, that that's a traumatic event in all sorts of ways that

00:10:31.900 you have to live with for pretty much the rest of your life. And I, I managed to, to escape that

00:10:36.240 fortunately. So from the point of getting diagnosed to the point of, uh, being told all the all clear

00:10:42.400 was kind of two or three weeks. It was pretty short. Um, so, but I, you know, I had to sacrifice

00:10:47.840 half my kind of manlyhood in some ways, um, which, which was, uh, I mean, I'm sure there's an emotional

00:10:54.500 aspect of that, not just the physical aspect too. Huge, huge. Well, you know, you know, you know,

00:10:58.820 as a, as a man, like it's, um, challenged my masculinity in, in ways I never thought I'd

00:11:03.920 have to comprehend, you know, and, and that sent me down a real torrid path in terms of

00:11:11.000 my, um, you know, my identity, what I, I, I had, uh, you know, I had battles on anxiety.

00:11:16.820 I had battles with all sorts of emotional torment that come, that came from that point as a catalyst.

00:11:23.120 And it took me a while to really cultivate, um, some resilience to, to, to overcome that,

00:11:28.140 um, which was a real journey. And it was, it was testing to say the least for sure.

00:11:34.380 Yeah. I, well, I mean, we, we quite literally call our testicles and penis our manhood.

00:11:39.640 So I imagine when, you know, part of that is removed and, and I hope I'm not overstepping

00:11:45.520 boundaries or anything here. I mean, these are important discussions to have and I don't want

00:11:49.360 to make it awkward by any means, but, um, it was there, was that, was that a catalyst

00:11:55.400 or a reason for your declining, uh, testosterone rates is because of that removal?

00:12:02.020 Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, okay. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, there are, I mean,

00:12:06.920 the, the, the, the prognosis is, is pretty good. Um, generally speaking, uh, and, you know,

00:12:13.160 having looked into this, like in animal studies, even when you've lost a testicle, like testosterone

00:12:20.300 levels and hormone levels tend to, they tend to be pretty similar to if you've got two. Um,

00:12:26.560 but in some cases, you know, depending on how you live your life, depending on the context of the

00:12:30.520 individual, um, their health or a myriad of different areas. And sometimes you can be more

00:12:35.840 vulnerable than others. And therefore I just, you know, as a, as a, as a guy who wants to protect his,

00:12:40.700 you know, my manhood, my masculinity, the drive, the motivation, all the things that, you know,

00:12:44.900 we, we cherish and are precious to men. Right. I wanted to make sure that, you know, when I,

00:12:50.280 when I found a woman and wanted to cultivate a relationship and have kids and, and the kind of

00:12:55.520 dynamic that I wanted, I wanted to make sure that I could bulletproof myself against that. And that's

00:12:59.180 what, you know, as, as, as, um, as, uh, extreme or as morbid as that might sound that, you know,

00:13:08.500 losing a testicle, you know, it was kind of, um, it was, it was in some ways, it was the biggest

00:13:14.460 blessing for me in the sense of I've since lived a very intentional life. And on the back of living

00:13:19.780 an intentional life, it's opened up opportunities and I've, you know, become a man I never thought

00:13:23.700 I could. So not, you know, not that I recommend anyone listening to this or watching this should

00:13:27.740 wait till they get pain to go and do that because you, you know, you should want to do it for,

00:13:33.800 for other reasons. But, um, I know for a fact that if I hadn't had that event, I would have kept

00:13:39.300 living the way that I did, which was very unintentional. I was living an excessive

00:13:43.340 kind of hedonistic lifestyle and I needed that wake up call to really shake me. And it's a shame

00:13:47.960 that it had to be that, but, um, you know, I'm just grateful that, uh, that I have now responded in

00:13:53.960 the right way. And I'm now, um, reaping the rewards of, of living intentionally and doing the best I can

00:13:59.920 with that. And it's a really honorable way to look at it. And I think it would be easy to go the other

00:14:05.020 way. I actually have two other friends who have undergone the same surgery. And so I know a little

00:14:09.640 bit just based on my experience with them, how that would impact, you know, I do want to get into that

00:14:15.440 in a minute, but what was interesting to go back to what we were talking about with, with doctors is

00:14:20.240 I also believe that most doctors, the overwhelming majority of doctors are in the practice for the right

00:14:26.180 reason, doing the right thing. They have noble intentions. Um, but they're hamstringed. I see

00:14:31.520 this with school teachers as well. You know, they're, they, they get into education to inspire

00:14:37.260 and motivate and teach our youth, but then they get bogged down with bureaucracy and red tape and

00:14:42.560 bull crap. But that said, I think if you're going to enter an industry like that, you also have a

00:14:49.300 responsibility to fight against what you know is not going to be in the best interest of your

00:14:55.400 patients or in the case of school teachers, your pupils. Right. Exactly. Right. Right. I mean,

00:15:01.180 they're exactly. I, I, it's, it don't hate the player, hate the game, you know, like it's,

00:15:06.520 it's the system that I think is, uh, that is rotten in many ways. And, um, I think, you know,

00:15:13.820 with the whole COVID situation and everything that happened with that, I think a lot of people now

00:15:17.000 waking up to the realization that the premise of these systems may not, but may not be what we've

00:15:23.980 always been told, you know, and I think people are realizing there's more that meets the eye with

00:15:28.440 a lot of this stuff. And maybe that, maybe the, um, pharmaceutical companies and these huge

00:15:34.060 multi-billion conglomerates, maybe they don't have, you know, your best intentions. And, and I

00:15:39.480 think, um, I think a lot more and more people are waking up to that. I think that's great. I think

00:15:43.180 it's really exciting because I think in today's world, it's quite easy to get into kind of the doom

00:15:46.320 and gloom, uh, of what's going on. Uh, and not to die, I don't want to digress. And I know this

00:15:51.240 isn't a political podcast, but, um, uh, but I think, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's important to have

00:15:58.140 a critical eye and, uh, I think that will serve you very well. And, um, I think it's, uh, I think

00:16:04.320 we just need to be vigilant to, um, taking things at first glance and, and, and not blindly just

00:16:10.180 accepting things, you know, and, and, you know, in this, in the case of medical situations or anything,

00:16:14.420 you know, getting second opinions, you know, if you're getting a conventional opinion,

00:16:17.260 maybe get, um, a naturopathic, naturopathic opinion or a holistic opinion, just so that

00:16:22.200 you've got multiple different sides to how you can go and treat your issue. And I think

00:16:26.900 that's going to be a wise thing. I think being dogmatic in any case is, is, is, is not going

00:16:32.760 to serve you and, and, and, you know, can be detrimental in many ways, but I empathize with

00:16:37.580 people because I'd been in that, I'd been in that space. Like when the cancer came, you know,

00:16:41.840 I was brainwashed, you know, I was, I considered myself very brainwashed or I considered myself

00:16:45.400 very, I only knew the medical reality that I knew at the time. I only knew that there

00:16:50.880 was conventional medicine. And so you only proceed on what we know, right? Exactly. Right.

00:16:55.860 Exactly. So, you know, you can't kick yourself, uh, you, you know, we're all, we're all doing

00:17:00.160 the best with what we know at the time, but I do think if anyone's listening to us or watching

00:17:04.140 this, like, I just think it's important that you, you know, just keep a vigilant eye, keep

00:17:07.960 an open mind and, and be critical and just make sure that the advice you're getting, you

00:17:12.000 know, is, is, is, is, is well-rounded as you can get, as opposed to just relying on one

00:17:15.460 person. Um, that's really important.

00:17:18.880 So when, when you, uh, got the second blood test, what, what was, what were your, uh, testosterone

00:17:24.720 rates at that point?

00:17:26.380 Yeah. So initially, um, I mean, I had it done in the UK, although I base myself a lot in the

00:17:32.080 US now. Um, well, it was initially zeroed and I had the rates back, which was, it was about

00:17:36.620 11 animals, which in the US units would be something like 200, 100, 150 to 200. Um, so

00:17:44.340 it was, it was low. Yeah. Yeah. For 20, 21, like, yeah, like a fifth of what it should

00:17:49.600 be. Right. Um, so it was bad. Um, and, uh, yeah, at the time I didn't know, I had no idea

00:17:58.700 about the importance of hormone optimization and the power of hormones and what they can

00:18:02.560 do in, in terms of your mood and your persona and the way that you want to live your life.

00:18:07.080 I had no idea, you know, um, you know, I, I, you know, you, you hear that testosterone

00:18:11.520 is related to a lot of masculine traits, but now, you know, when you dig into it, there's

00:18:14.860 like DHT, there's all sorts of different hormones. Um, but, um, uh, but yeah, at the time I was

00:18:20.460 more, it was more of a case of, I was very unhealthy, had a, had a set of very toxic habits and,

00:18:26.400 and ways that I was living. And, um, that was at the time that was the particular marker

00:18:31.160 that made me realize, oh, wow, like if he's proceeding on the basis with the recommendations

00:18:36.200 he is on a, on an anomaly, which turned out to be an anomaly and an exception, then I

00:18:40.860 wonder, you know, I wonder if the system's doing this across the board. And then you've

00:18:43.960 got the whole rabbit hole of blood tests themselves, you know, with regards to the way blood tests

00:18:48.560 are done. A lot of people believe that they're inherently objective and that's not the case.

00:18:53.300 Um, you know, like depending on the time of day you take it, depending on the way that

00:18:57.560 they're testing it, there's different modes of testing, you know, there's, there's a lot

00:19:01.560 of nuance. And I think, you know, I'm a big fan within my coaching. I'm a big fan of like

00:19:05.940 subjectively, you can understand quite quickly whether someone's, you know, well or not using

00:19:11.040 various different subjective markers, which have actually been proven in terms of there is

00:19:15.500 studies that show self-report analysis in terms of how you feel in certain aspects can

00:19:20.620 be as credible, if not more credible than getting blood tests. So I do think again, it comes

00:19:25.380 to this point, like vigilant eye, critical mind and realizing that there may be more views,

00:19:31.100 compelling views to a situation that we want to account for that are also really important.

00:19:36.780 Well, one of the things that's interesting about blood tests, and I, and I found this

00:19:40.120 out relatively recently is that it's not really a great, to your point, subjective indicator

00:19:45.180 or it's subjective. It's not an objective indicator. So if you look at testosterone rates

00:19:51.140 or the, or the scale or the, like the recommended place you should be, as I understand it, you

00:19:56.720 know more about this than I do. It's not really an objective standard of what is a healthy level

00:20:01.600 of testosterone based on your age and other factors. It's what is it relative to everybody

00:20:07.360 else and everybody else is unhealthy. So even the healthiest markers, I would assume are not

00:20:15.480 as good as they otherwise could be because you're drawing from an unhealthy sample size.

00:20:20.960 Exactly. Exactly. Like, yeah, exactly. Like, you know, the, the spectrum now of what's considered

00:20:25.760 normal is something like, I mean, depending on the practice or the physician used something

00:20:30.640 like 200 to 600. Whereas, whereas 50 years ago, it was five, 600 to 1500, you know, so they've,

00:20:38.020 they've almost shifted in, in, in response to, you know, society, you know, people are more sick,

00:20:44.220 more fat than we've ever been. And that makes a lot of sense, but I think it's, it's a shame.

00:20:49.700 But also you've got the nuance of, you know, I don't know, Alex Formozzi famously came out

00:20:54.460 recently and he said he had a testosterone level of 124, I think. And he's absolutely jacked,

00:21:00.280 he's tanked. And a lot of people are asking questions around, well, how come his testosterone

00:21:04.360 level is so low yet? He looks so visibly jacked and so driven and all the traits that we associate

00:21:11.040 with a high testosterone man. And I think it's fascinating. Now we're learning about

00:21:14.460 like androgen receptor, androgen receptor sensitivity. It's like, well, even if you have

00:21:19.120 low T, because if you've got highly sensitized receptors, androgen receptors, it means that

00:21:24.080 your body's able to utilize that team better than someone that has desensitized receptors.

00:21:28.300 So it's like, maybe low T isn't, maybe it's not a case of low T is inherently bad. And maybe

00:21:33.760 it's nuanced around, well, if you've got low T and you've got desensitized receptors,

00:21:37.800 then it's bad, you know, and so like, like I do, it's, you know, there's, there's just so much

00:21:43.460 nuance with this stuff, and it becomes a bottomless pit. And, you know, when it's someone trying to

00:21:48.360 research what to do, or where to get advice, or what actions to take, it's difficult, you know,

00:21:53.020 it's really difficult. And there's a lot of people out there, you know, I think there's a lot of

00:21:57.080 influencer types or experts. And again, I think a lot of them have good intentions, but they're only

00:22:02.800 giving advice based on what they know. And I've seen some quotes from people like Gary Brecker and

00:22:06.920 Huberman, all these guys that a lot of people put on a pedestal. And rightly so, I think they say

00:22:11.480 a lot of fantastic stuff, but some of their stuff, you know, I do think it's dubious. And I think,

00:22:16.860 and I do think it's, again, taking, taking what resonates, and then challenging that and making

00:22:22.700 sure that you do your own research, and really make sure that it stacks up to your own interpretation,

00:22:27.740 because it's very easy in a podcast domain, like you and I now, I'm by myself, so I don't have

00:22:33.320 someone next to me scrutinizing what I'm saying. So it makes it very easy for me to propagate.

00:22:37.460 You will, you will. And I'm sure you've dealt with it.

00:22:41.820 Well, yeah, it happens, right? But again, like Huberman, Brecker, all these guys tend to have,

00:22:46.280 they tend to be on by themselves. And it's very easy just to say these grandiose,

00:22:50.940 very elaborate ways of doing things. And, you know, just, you know, Joe Rogan, who I love and

00:22:56.300 respect, you know, he's brilliant, but I do think they get a good time. And I think it's at the expense

00:23:00.880 sometimes of the consumer who's trying to learn. It's like, well, if you had multiple people on,

00:23:05.280 I just think you'd get a much better insight. It's the same with the news, you know, we always

00:23:08.980 hear one side, whereas if they had, you know, a Republican and a Democrat on, you know, you get

00:23:14.320 a much more rounder view. I think the same principle needs to be applied to podcasts and all the rest of

00:23:18.880 it so that people can actually be like, ah, okay, well, I resonate with that. I don't resonate with that.

00:23:22.500 Maybe I, do you know what I mean? I just think it would really help. It's a lot healthier way of doing it.

00:23:26.040 Yeah. To go back to what you were saying about androgen receptors, the way I understand that is

00:23:31.700 it's basically the mechanism of the body that processes the, uh, testosterone to usable function.

00:23:40.240 Is that a good way to describe it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's like one of the

00:23:46.280 key driving factors of it for sure. Um, and I do think, you know, where it's now starting to come out

00:23:53.540 and become a bit more, uh, androgen receptor, receptor, receptor sensitive. It's a bit of a

00:23:59.440 mouthful is the, the, um, awareness around it. It's just starting to come out, which I think is

00:24:04.560 great. Um, you know, there's, um, Derek on, I don't know if, I don't know his surname, Derek

00:24:08.560 more plates, more dates, uh, who's brilliant at, um, he's worth checking out if anyone wants to dig

00:24:13.260 more into this stuff. Obviously I'm, you know, I've got my own way. It's Derek. Um, oh, well,

00:24:19.780 I don't know his surname, but he's, he's been on, he's been on Rogan a few times. He's, he runs, uh,

00:24:25.760 he runs a health, uh, testing business called Merrick Health. Anyway, he's, he's super switched

00:24:30.400 on with, um, all things hormones. And, uh, he opened my eyes to, he opened my eyes to the nuance

00:24:35.420 of, you know, the differences between free tea and total tea and how to interpret the difference

00:24:40.180 between that, the, the, um, how liver function and thyroid function can impact T levels and gut

00:24:45.960 function, which, you know, a lot of these organs, given that cholesterol, 80% of it's manufactured

00:24:50.700 in the liver. And given that testosterone is a precursor, uh, a precursor of cholesterol,

00:24:56.340 surely it makes sense to make sure that liver functions operating properly so that it can

00:24:59.380 create cholesterol and that the cholesterol can then be, um, converted into pregnenolone and then

00:25:05.660 pregnenolone can then be converted into the downstream metabolite hormones. And then you then

00:25:09.660 got testosterone. So, um, I do think again, in a lot of the testosterone rhetoric, you know,

00:25:15.740 whether it's you're on TikTok or Twitter or any of these platforms, it's like, uh, boost testosterone

00:25:20.320 with these different methods. And I think it's at the expense again of understanding, okay, well,

00:25:23.820 if you think you have low T, well, then why is that? Because if you have low T, there is good

00:25:29.120 science showing that if thyroid is inversely correlated with T levels, uh, cortisol, high

00:25:34.460 cortisol is famously inversely correlated stress, right? Exactly. Gut function. We're now learning

00:25:40.160 about the power of gut inflammation and how that lowers testosterone. So my, by, by gut proving that

00:25:50.500 it can lower T and cortisol, high cortisol, you've got, um, uh, poor thyroid function, um, and poor

00:25:56.720 liver function. This, that should be the baseline or that should be where people should turn to first

00:26:02.100 at any age before you then go and think about TRT or anything exogenous, because I'm convinced that

00:26:08.600 in every case, one of those areas is going to be suboptimal and there's some things you can do that

00:26:13.500 would make a huge difference. And I think it will save you years of dependency, save you, you know,

00:26:19.100 it's an inconvenience. There's, there's a whole myriad of issues that come with it. I'm not saying

00:26:22.580 it's all bad because there's some guys that clearly do well on it for sure. Um, but I do think it's part

00:26:28.840 of a culture of this kind of instant gratification culture, this quick fix culture that's like, oh,

00:26:32.660 there's this thing that gets you these results and you can take it and there's no effort and

00:26:36.280 it's easy. And I think I, as a matter of principle, I think whenever, when anything's ever advertised

00:26:42.660 to you as a quick fix, most quick fixes are actually long-term pain in disguise, but obviously

00:26:48.140 they're not going to advertise it like that because you're not going to buy it. Uh, but

00:26:51.380 there's always a trade-off. There is always a trade-off always. Um, so sorry, I don't know

00:26:55.460 if I digress there, but, um, yeah. No, I mean, it makes sense. And the thing that I'm thinking

00:26:59.700 about as you're saying this is, you know, there's so many different variables in the equation

00:27:04.240 that when you do something like TRT or pinpoint a symptom and then treat that symptom alone,

00:27:10.520 you might actually address the problem. One of the problems, but when you decide to engage,

00:27:16.760 let's just call it healthy living, not only are you going to hit your improved testosterone,

00:27:20.660 but your gut, uh, is going to improve. Your liver is going to improve. Your cholesterol is going to

00:27:26.620 reduce. Your energy is going to increase. And so the by-product of you doing this the right

00:27:32.080 way is not only are you achieving the result you desire, but there's a lot of ancillary benefits

00:27:36.620 that come from it as well. Right? Exactly. Exactly. So when you, when you got this test and

00:27:42.820 you were in the, in the 200 high, high 100s, low 200 range, you had said that there was a lot of the

00:27:49.600 way that you were living that was not conducive to good levels of testosterone. I imagine it had to do

00:27:56.120 with probably alcohol abuse, probably sleep. What are some of the things that you had to change in

00:28:01.600 your life to immediately start to improve those levels and in turn your health? Yeah. So I feel

00:28:07.600 like I was living a very, I imagine the classic college lifestyle in terms of, you know, eating

00:28:14.220 junk, sleep late nights. You know, I was, I had a bit of a habit of partying. I liked, I liked my house

00:28:20.000 music. Um, so I, I, um, uh, I was doing all of the kind of hedonistic things and, uh, you know,

00:28:27.240 enjoying myself, having fun as you do at that age and what's kind of considered normal. Um, not

00:28:32.180 realizing how, and I remember at the time I had these funny cause I had these symptoms where I was

00:28:37.140 and maybe it's a bit graphic, but I used to get like bad phlegm, a lot of phlegm. And I used to have

00:28:41.640 like, I used to get ill like every couple of months. And I used to just, at the time I just thought,

00:28:45.780 oh, well that's normal. That just happens. Or, oh, I have phlegm because phlegm's just normal.

00:28:51.620 And I used to get coughs, coughs. I used to get flu a lot. Uh, I didn't have really bad acne. So,

00:28:57.860 and I'm saying this because I'm now convinced given that I'm working with guys in my own journey as

00:29:02.620 well. Like this is your retrospectively looking back on that, like that's my body's way of being

00:29:07.160 like, ah, Simo, there's some things that you're metabolizing in your life right now that your body's

00:29:12.080 trying to tell you, stop, you know, you should probably stop doing that. Like you should probably

00:29:15.400 stop drinking, you know, a quart of beer, or you should, you should stop, um, you know, uh, eating

00:29:23.300 all the junk or you should stop just, you know, rather than being unintentional and just being

00:29:27.060 blind to it, just start like evaluating, hang on, is there things within this, within my routine or my

00:29:31.960 lifestyle that may be not conducive to good health, you know, and just starting to become aware of

00:29:37.420 that. Cause, um, I had all of these symptoms and I had tonsillitis about, before I got cancer, I got

00:29:42.300 tonsillitis about four times in two years, which is, which is considered broadly considered a pretty

00:29:48.020 extreme immune response. You know, it's like in lots of medical circles, they would say, you know,

00:29:52.460 that's quite severe. Um, and again, I'm now convinced it's like the warning signs. We get

00:29:58.520 these warning signs of your body being like, look, you are overloading me with toxins and I am

00:30:03.360 struggling to cope. And therefore I'm going to give you these, these signs so that you can take

00:30:08.780 action. If you don't take action, well, I'm going to give you, I'll then throw out cancer or you'll

00:30:12.420 get something a lot more severe. And I'm now convinced that, um, I'm now convinced that the

00:30:19.160 cancer and, um, what I went through and all the symptoms and everything that was really bad, it

00:30:23.680 was a product of just overloading my system with just things it couldn't cope with. It just became

00:30:28.220 overwhelmed. Um, so yeah. Yeah. I know, I know when I was drinking very heavily for me, it was

00:30:34.720 digestive issues and heartburn like you wouldn't believe. I mean, those were the two biggest issues

00:30:40.000 and then, you know, in stopping drinking, not only do you resolve those problems fairly quickly,

00:30:44.480 uh, there's a whole other host of issues that maybe you don't even recognize like improved

00:30:49.800 performance, increased energy, um, better sleep at night, all these other factors that come into

00:30:55.120 consideration. Right. Exactly. Exactly. So, so you, you cut out a lot of your, um, your toxic

00:31:03.440 lifestyle. Yeah. What are some of the things that you began to incorporate through diet,

00:31:08.660 through activity, through exercise, those sorts of things? Yeah. So, um, so that was when I was 21.

00:31:14.120 And then I kind of went on this recovery journey. And then when I, then I started to retake action

00:31:19.400 when I was 25, 26, 25. Um, and that's when I started cultivating in terms of the routine was really

00:31:27.680 understanding the power of, you know, nutrition, whole food nutrition, uh, what's, what's kind of

00:31:31.880 called animal based, you know, an animal based diet. Like I did vegetarian, I did vegan, I did

00:31:37.060 pescatarian. I did, you know, I feel like I've worn all of the nutrition caps and, um, you know,

00:31:43.260 I did intermittent fasting. I did all of these things. And then I landed on, I then discovered

00:31:47.280 Jordan Peterson or Joe Rogan about four or five years ago. And he was talking, you know, very eloquently

00:31:53.160 about the power of steak and eating meat. And I was kind of like, wow, that's so, it's so kind of, uh,

00:31:59.320 antithetical to the, to the mainstream narrative, you know, and a lot of the rhetoric right now is

00:32:02.900 plant-based, you know, and I was like, at the time I was like, wow, like that's so radical.

00:32:08.440 And, um, so anyway, I tried it and then it blew me away. You know, I had, I, at the time I had

00:32:13.540 digestive issues that, that dissipated, I had some mood disorders and you know, that, that,

00:32:18.920 those dissipated and that was purely just from eating mainly steaks, which was wild, which,

00:32:23.880 you know, sometimes you might think that's hard to comprehend, but, um, it really, it really was

00:32:30.580 really the kind of the big change I made. And then when I started doing that, I then discovered

00:32:34.100 Paul Saladino who, you know, at the time was carnivore MD. Um, and then he opened my eyes to,

00:32:39.560 you know, the, the, the, some of the flaws in the plant-based narrative that, um, uh, and then some

00:32:47.300 of the strengths that weren't being shown in the animal-based narrative. Um, and then on the back of,

00:32:52.240 on the back of learning more about him and his work, that then kind of validated some of what

00:32:55.900 I'd seen about, you know, the Peterson podcast with Joe Rogan. And then just through way of

00:32:59.580 experimenting with that, I then started feeling better and all these symptoms started to get

00:33:03.380 better. And then, um, yeah. And then I haven't really changed. I haven't really changed much

00:33:08.040 since like I've, I've very much kind of stayed on that nutrition template since, but I think what

00:33:11.380 was interesting, what was interesting, Ryan is like until about two or three years ago, I thought

00:33:16.940 nutrition was kind of the be all end all, you know, and I was really kind of fixated on nutrition

00:33:20.740 being like this panacea, like it's all about nutrition. And I think of a lot of the health

00:33:25.680 rhetoric, it does center around nutrition. And I think rightly so, because in most cases,

00:33:30.380 nutrition will definitely be responsible for a lot of your, a lot of your change. But I think

00:33:34.720 then I discovered Jack Cruz who opened my eyes to the world of light and the power of light hygiene,

00:33:40.100 you know, sun gazing in the morning, red lights, incandescent bulbs, halogen lights, all that kind of

00:33:43.940 stuff. Um, and then, um, you know, I discovered Paul Cech and the power of movement and the way that he

00:33:49.420 advocates how to move. So after the nutrition, the nutrition was really the foundation. And then I

00:33:55.040 layered it. And then once I discovered some other, uh, what I can kind of consider pioneers in their

00:34:00.180 space, I then layered that on top. And I realized actually it, it all, it all makes a difference.

00:34:05.600 And that's why I feel like it's really a lifestyle change. Like if you want to live healthily and you

00:34:10.180 want to, and you want to garner the benefits from living healthily long-term, like you've really just,

00:34:15.140 you've got to commit to it as a lifestyle. Like you've got to curate a lifestyle in a way that

00:34:18.800 works for you, obviously, but it's not a case of, Oh, I'm just going to have a healthy meal.

00:34:23.980 And then I'm just going to, and then that's okay. And I'll just drink excessively and I'll

00:34:27.400 go out late at night or whatever, whatever it is for you. Like it, you have, it's a commitment,

00:34:31.340 right? I think as men, you know, given, given what you do, like, I think as men, like you

00:34:35.840 discipline, discipline for me and integrity are kind of the two traits at the essence of kind of the,

00:34:41.660 the masculine core. And I think if you really want to be truly healthy as a man, physically

00:34:45.800 and mentally, like you have to get, you have to start embracing discipline and really understanding

00:34:51.180 the power of what discipline can do for you. And I really think at the core of everything I've done,

00:34:54.800 it really stems down to discipline. That's really, that's really it. You know, discipline was really

00:34:59.760 what got me where I am.

00:35:02.860 Man, I'm going to step away from the conversation for a brief minute. Um, every man, and we'll talk

00:35:07.320 about this in the podcast and you'll hear a little bit more about this towards the end of the

00:35:10.140 conversation, but every man needs other men in his corner, but not nearly enough men have that in

00:35:15.080 their lives. You know, maybe you're too busy. Uh, maybe they're too lazy or maybe they acknowledge

00:35:21.940 it, but have a difficult time finding the right men, the right men to band with. And that's where

00:35:27.760 the iron council comes into play. This is a band of brothers that I am thousands of other men have

00:35:32.140 been working on for nearly a decade. We've tested strategies and protocols, tools, systems,

00:35:37.160 different resources. And in the absence of finding the right tools, we have developed

00:35:41.920 many of our own tools that have proven proven to work for thousands of men. Uh, if you know,

00:35:48.720 you need men in your corner, but you're a busy professional with a life full of responsibilities,

00:35:52.860 like most of us, uh, we can simplify the system for you and we can cut through the BS and introduce

00:35:58.300 you to men who will quite literally change your life. If you do the work, you're a busy guy.

00:36:04.180 You've got a lot going on. You know, this is important, but sometimes our schedules don't

00:36:08.760 allow for it, or we can't invest the time it takes to build this on our own. And so I would

00:36:12.520 encourage you to join us and check it out for a month even. And if it's something that is a good

00:36:17.540 fit for you, stick around. If not, no harm, no foul. Maybe you learned a few things and you can go do

00:36:22.180 it on your own, but we'd love to have you there. We close out the end of this month, September 30th

00:36:27.520 or 31st. I don't know how many days right offhand September has in it, but, uh, we will close

00:36:31.680 the end of this month. You can go to order of man.com slash iron council. That's order of

00:36:37.060 man.com slash iron council. Let's get back to it with Simo. I, uh, I watched this. It was a video

00:36:45.080 I saw a couple of weeks ago and it was this man, they must've been in a conference and it looked

00:36:48.760 like a, some sort of a church conference for men. And, uh, the main speaker brought a friend of

00:36:54.440 his up and this friend of his was clearly a physical specimen, just big and strong and very

00:37:01.000 masculine looking. And the other guy was not as masculine looking as this other guy. And he says,

00:37:06.180 you know, I work out with this guy. I train with this guy. We go to the same gym. We lift the same

00:37:10.600 weights. We do all the same thing. Why does he look like this? And I look like this. And he made the

00:37:15.600 point that his friend takes the gym home with him and he uses the gym as an excuse for poor habits the

00:37:24.560 rest of the day. But the friend says, Hey, not only is it me going to the gym, this is just part of my

00:37:31.800 lifestyle. I eat right. I get the sleep I need. I've moved my body. I do all these other things

00:37:37.760 because the gym is important. I don't use the gym as an excuse to beat myself up the rest of the 20,

00:37:44.860 you know, three hours of the day that I have. Right. Exactly. Exactly. So exactly. I think

00:37:52.180 that's, I think that's a great way of putting it. Like, I think that's a great example. Uh,

00:37:55.500 like I think it was, uh, Oh, good. Sorry. Was it when you, when you started to eat meat to the degree

00:38:02.500 that you have, this is a little foreign to me cause I've never had a problem with it and I've

00:38:05.260 always loved meat and it's no surprise that you feel better. And I think most of the men listening to

00:38:10.520 this are like, yeah, obviously you're going to feel better with a steak. Was that a challenge

00:38:14.480 though for you initially? Because you were either on a, like a plant-based diet or a, or a vegan or

00:38:20.080 vegetarian, it sounds like was, was that hard to make that switch for you? It was, it was,

00:38:24.780 because there's a, there's kind of a social stigma, uh, to eating meat, you know, particularly with

00:38:29.060 like, you know, whether you subscribe to the climate check, you know, in terms of, um, the climate

00:38:35.040 impacts that are typically articulated about eating meat, but also, you know, the ethical impact with

00:38:40.100 regards to how the meats, animals are killed. So I remember, you know, friends of mine,

00:38:44.820 I remember, you know, being, uh, somewhat of target of, uh, of, uh, yeah, being targeted for it for

00:38:53.020 sure from a social standpoint, but, um, but also like, yeah, for sure. Like, I don't know whether

00:38:57.920 it's the same. That was when I was in, in London and in the U S the U S you know, being in Florida,

00:39:02.320 it's a lot different, but, um, and in Texas.

00:39:04.300 I imagine it's just the circles you run into because nobody would ever mock me for eating a

00:39:08.620 steak or venison or moose or anything, but it's the circle that you curate.

00:39:13.340 Exactly. Right. Which is different for me now, but back then it was more, it was different. It was

00:39:17.680 definitely different. Um, and, um, and therefore I had to, I definitely had to, uh, I definitely had

00:39:24.200 to do my best to navigate that for sure. Um, um, but yeah, uh, I would say that was, that was a big

00:39:32.300 one to, I, I definitely went, I have a kind of an, um, an extremes attitude. So when I do something,

00:39:36.580 I have to go all in. And therefore at the time I did kind of the carnival edition, I did the Jordan

00:39:40.560 Peterson version of it. And at the time that was quite, you know, that was quite difficult in the

00:39:45.880 sense of the convenience and practicality when you're eating out or when you're seeing, you know,

00:39:49.720 with friends or social occasions, whatever, like when you're just trying to order steak, like sometimes

00:39:54.300 that, that definitely became, that definitely became quite difficult for sure. Um, so I learned,

00:40:00.060 I learned a lot. I learned, it was, it was definitely a spiritual, a more spiritual battle

00:40:05.860 than I thought it was going to be. And I learned a lot about myself in terms of discipline, but I

00:40:10.740 learned a lot about friends and their tolerances and their patients and some interesting character

00:40:15.360 traits as well. So, um, so it was a big learning curve for sure. It was a massive learning curve.

00:40:21.360 Yeah. That's interesting. No, it's fascinating to me again, because it's not anything that I've,

00:40:26.260 that I've ever dealt with. In fact, I think in my circle, there's probably more of a stigma around,

00:40:29.760 uh, being a vegan or a vegetarian than actually consuming meat. Yeah. I agree. I agree.

00:40:36.440 That's how it should be. Because yeah, a lot of, you know, uh, yeah, a lot of that rhetoric is,

00:40:41.580 is, you know, is, is not, um, is, is, uh, commercially based, you know, like now I'm

00:40:48.680 realizing like a lot of the rhetoric around a lot of stuff generally tends to have, uh, its roots in

00:40:55.720 kind of, uh, corporate, um, you know, corporate ties or corporate agendas, uh, that, that, that

00:41:02.860 help profit, you know? And I think once you start to realize that, you're like, ah, okay.

00:41:06.660 You know, it's like, um, okay. The penny starts to drop for sure.

00:41:10.520 Yeah. Let's, let's shift gears into, uh, training, physical training. I think the conventional wisdom

00:41:16.140 with regards to testosterone optimization is lifting heavy. I would say, based on what I know,

00:41:23.260 you tell me if I'm wrong is between three to four days a week, you're lifting heavy. In fact,

00:41:28.000 I think I saw something where you had talked about reducing the, the quantity of, of your training,

00:41:35.660 but make sure it's higher quality. But you said something else that I didn't know. And I'm

00:41:39.440 interested in this, that there's actually a better correlation with improved testosterone in working

00:41:44.840 your lower body relative to your upper body. I was very curious about that.

00:41:49.260 Yeah. Well, most of your muscle is in your legs predominantly. And that makes sense.

00:41:54.280 Exactly. Right. And, and like, for instance, a lot of elite bodybuilders,

00:41:57.760 when they had, like, if they had lagging upper, upper, upper body, uh, um, muscles,

00:42:04.360 uh, they would train. So for instance, let's say that they had lagging medial delts or front delts,

00:42:10.000 they would, they would save those exercises for a lower body day because then, because of the,

00:42:15.620 um, stronger hormonal response you get from training your legs, that then, that then translates

00:42:20.960 into a better strength gains with regards to lagging muscle groups. So, you know, I know that's

00:42:24.800 very common, um, you know, Tom Platts and a lot of these old school guys talk, talk very fondly

00:42:29.580 about that. And I incorporated that into my own training, but also Mike Mensah, who never won

00:42:34.620 Mr. Olympia, but he, I think he won Mr. Universe once. And he, he was in, he was in that circle for a

00:42:40.160 while and he pioneered what we call high intensity training. And, uh, that opened my eyes to the

00:42:47.560 power of lifting with intensity and not realizing that the gains that you're seeking aren't tied to

00:42:53.880 the amount of times you need to go to the gym. And what I'm now convinced in my own, in my own

00:42:58.380 training and helping guys as well, I was like, as long as you train with the right intensity,

00:43:02.820 like, and what I mean by intensity is like real intensity, because a lot of men also underestimate

00:43:06.680 how capable they are in terms of intensity. Like I think most guys go to the gym and they,

00:43:10.940 they might hit 70, 80%, but very few actually like try and put them through, put themselves

00:43:16.700 through like 90, a hundred percent. And if you, if you go, if you want to go and see what a hundred

00:43:20.260 percent looks like, go and check out Tom Platts. Cause I feel like he, he trained, he was an animal,

00:43:25.040 but he very much was, um, he opened my eyes to like, you can train two, three times a week.

00:43:30.120 And as long as you train with the right intensity, you can elicit the same responses and get the

00:43:35.060 same benefits and get the same, you know, whether it's hypertrophy or strength or whatever your goal

00:43:38.640 is, you know, you can get some phenomenal responses just by shifting your focus from volume to

00:43:44.660 intensity. Um, and particularly with legs, you know, Platts, Platts famously trained his legs

00:43:49.900 once every two weeks. And if you watch his videos, you'll see why, because the guy, you know, he, it

00:43:55.420 looked, it looked like he was putting himself through some form of torture. It was, it's, it's nuts,

00:44:00.580 but it, it, it, it makes you realize how much, how much we're probably leaving on the table when we

00:44:05.320 go to the gym. You know, I really think you think you're training hard, you don't times it by

00:44:09.320 five. And that's probably where that's probably where you need to be, you know? So, um, yeah.

00:44:16.000 I think one of the problems with training two to three times a week, not that it's physiological,

00:44:21.180 physiologically not good for you. It's that a lot of us, myself included often mistake action for

00:44:26.780 prudence. We think if we're moving and doing and always busy and always at the gym and always this

00:44:31.160 and always that, that that's actually going to be what's best for you. But when you say this,

00:44:35.540 what I'm hearing you say, especially for busy men, you know, we all have lives, we have families,

00:44:39.860 we have businesses, we have our own hobbies and activities. Like you don't need to bust your ass

00:44:44.060 every single day and completely just tear yourself down. Now we're just talking about being more

00:44:49.760 effective and efficient with the limited time that we actually have to engage in some of these

00:44:54.340 activities. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that that's one of the most liberating points that

00:44:58.900 you make there that I love is like, as men, aspirational men that have running businesses

00:45:03.100 or leading businesses or just entrepreneurial, you know, entrepreneurial in terms of just to have

00:45:07.020 finite time. I feel like the high intensity play is so liberating because it just means like,

00:45:12.800 if you just allocate, you know, one, two, one, two, three sessions a week, but you really hit it.

00:45:19.160 Like it just, it liberates you from having to think about having to do everything. Like for instance,

00:45:22.700 I've had clients who've come to me. I had a client recently who trains every morning and he'll get

00:45:27.440 up at half five and he'll train quarter to six till seven. And he's been struggling with libido

00:45:33.180 issues. He's been sleeping with, uh, struggling with sleep issues. And I'm convinced not only can,

00:45:38.040 not only can you train too much and that obviously overtraining is definitely a thing, particularly in

00:45:42.920 the morning. I think overtraining, you can mitigate overtraining through, uh, the time that you train and

00:45:48.480 obviously your, your diet and we can go into that if you want. But, um, yeah, overtraining is everything,

00:45:52.380 particularly morning because when you get up, you're training at the time that's least,

00:45:57.120 your body's least primed, you know? And if we think about circadian health, like Huberman talks

00:46:01.180 about circadian biology and the way that, you know, when you get up, you know, you need to get

00:46:06.260 light and then throughout, throughout the day, your body, your body operates better at different

00:46:10.500 points in the day. And training tends to be from kind of 12 till four in the afternoon. Um, whereas in

00:46:16.980 the morning, you know, a lot, a lot of my client base or guys I work with generally, you know,

00:46:21.480 they, they want to try and fit it in before they work because when they finish work, they

00:46:24.780 obviously want to spend time with their wives and kids, which makes total sense. But like

00:46:28.120 from a training perspective and, uh, and a results perspective, it's actually the worst

00:46:32.880 time to do it. So, you know, if guys are training in the morning, you know, I tend to say, don't

00:46:37.060 do it faster. I think that I, you know, get some, get some carbs down you before you train,

00:46:41.380 but also you, I think it's better to be more mindful about intensity. Like I think it becomes

00:46:47.640 a bit more nuanced, you know, I think the high intensity play applies if you have the luxury

00:46:51.780 of being able to train later in the day. Um, but I think if you're training in the morning,

00:46:55.780 particularly in the early morning, um, after you wake up, I think it, I think it pays to

00:47:02.280 approach it in a, in a slightly different way for sure. So again, as what I, as I, as I mentioned

00:47:07.380 about this conversation, I do think it's nuanced and in a lot of the topics or, or rhetorics,

00:47:13.320 I do think that nuance is forgotten. Like, you know, someone watching a podcast, whatever

00:47:17.440 it might be, you might think, Oh, I need to train really intensely in the morning, whatever

00:47:20.460 it might be. It's like, well, there's, there's trade-offs. There's always trade-offs wherever

00:47:24.320 you go, whichever way you do it. And I think it's just understanding the, what they are.

00:47:29.200 And I think it's sometimes hard to find that it is sometimes hard to find that.

00:47:33.580 Yeah. I mean, you're, you're basically saying that, Hey, the way Ryan, you're doing it,

00:47:37.360 don't do it like that. Cause I train every day in the morning fasted.

00:47:41.340 Okay. If I eat, if I eat something, I usually, when I'm training, cause I try to go as hard

00:47:46.600 as I can. I'm sure I'm not hitting it at 90 or a hundred percent, but I try. I just,

00:47:52.100 I feel like I'm going to puke, but I also think there's other reasons outside of, um,

00:47:58.940 hormone optimization or physique optimization. You know, maybe that's the only time you can go

00:48:04.100 or like you said, you know, if, if, if you're saying, Hey, go train from 12 to four, but that

00:48:10.020 just doesn't either work for your schedule or, you know, you're just not going to do it. Then I

00:48:14.400 would say morning is better than nothing. Absolutely. Absolutely. But I absolutely agree.

00:48:19.380 And also I do think again, as men, I think there's a case to be made for like, you know,

00:48:24.200 just get up and blood, you know, just do it, you know? And, and exactly. Yeah. I think,

00:48:27.760 and I think we can get to, you know, Brian, people like Brian Johnson and a lot of the health

00:48:32.100 rhetoric can be a lot, very neurotic, you know? And I think we need to be careful of that. Like,

00:48:35.540 I think it was like, you know, just do it. But I think if you're in your case, I think having some

00:48:40.500 honey or some sugar, literally some sugar or some fruit juice before you train, um, rather than train

00:48:45.900 faster, have some fruit based carbs or honey or maple syrup, I think would make a huge difference.

00:48:51.740 I really do. And a bit of a little bit of salt as well, like, like quarter teaspoon, half a teaspoon

00:48:56.780 of salt, um, would make a huge difference just because cortisol levels tend to spike early in the

00:49:01.620 morning about 7am. And what you run the risk of doing is if you don't have a little bit of

00:49:06.700 sustenance, particularly from carb. And the reason I'm stressing carb is because protein and fats take

00:49:11.540 a lot longer to digest. And therefore, when you have protein or like protein or fat before you train,

00:49:17.240 you risk the blood supply being allocated to your digestion as opposed to your limbs,

00:49:21.400 which is where you need them to obviously train. Whereas carbs, particularly sugars, maple syrups,

00:49:26.040 honeys, um, are metabolized really quickly. And therefore your body can almost utilize it like,

00:49:31.620 you know, rocket fuel. Um, but say that one more time. So the, the proteins and the fats

00:49:36.540 are processed where versus the carbs to your limbs? Most proteins, again, it depends on the type of

00:49:42.440 protein or fat, but generally speaking, proteins and fats take anywhere from two to five hours to

00:49:46.680 digest. Like fish is a lot easier, whereas like a pork can take five hours. Um, so the, the, the notion

00:49:54.480 that you should eat before, like particularly a protein shake, I think the protein shake before

00:49:58.220 training is, is, is not wise. Let's just say that pointless is what it sounds like. Yeah. Yeah.

00:50:05.380 Yeah. Like I think it's wise to have fruit. Yeah. Cause some problem with carb source because within

00:50:10.940 the context of hormone optimization, particularly in the morning, you run the risk of, if you don't,

00:50:16.880 if you run it fasted, you can burn yourself out because what you can then do is then artificially

00:50:21.760 spike cortisol more than it should be. And then if you compound that over time, you're going to find

00:50:27.740 that you're, you're going to plateau more. You might find that you're, you're going to get weaker.

00:50:31.080 You might find that in the afternoon you get like energy, um, like drops in energy. You'll start to,

00:50:36.720 you'll start to feel these symptoms. You're like, Oh, that's strange, but I'm doing everything right.

00:50:40.140 I'm eating well, I'm training. And then, and then, and I do find the devil is, is usually in the

00:50:45.460 details. And I've had a few examples of guys that do that train in the morning five to seven times a

00:50:49.500 week. And then when we, when we introduce, um, uh, some carbs before they train and, um, I get them

00:50:55.900 to, uh, use a halogen bulb. So sometimes if the sun isn't up, I get them to buy a halogen reptile

00:51:01.940 bulb. They shine it not directly in their face, but kind of to the side of the face. And it acts as a,

00:51:07.520 as kind of a form of sunlight. It's very similar to sunlight without it being sunlight. And what that

00:51:12.420 does is it, it tells your body, right, it's morning, you know, let's get going. It, it sends a

00:51:17.900 positive hormonal cascade. And so that, in addition to the bit of salt and the sugar just helps

00:51:23.520 mitigate any potential negative detrimental impacts that can come from, from training consistently in

00:51:29.360 the morning, particularly early in the morning. I think if it's eight or nine o'clock, that's a bit

00:51:32.760 different, but if it's six, seven, you just, you just run that risk a little bit. That's interesting.

00:51:37.460 I'm going to have to incorporate that. I, you know, I also know anecdotally just over-training just

00:51:41.760 wears your body down. I had an injury several years ago. I ruptured my, my pec, my pec,

00:51:47.900 complete rupture. And part of it was just doing something dumb at jujitsu. But the other part

00:51:53.920 is that my body was just beat down and I wasn't lifting so much at the time, but I was doing a

00:51:59.020 lot of jujitsu. My body was just worn out and I knew it was, you know, I'd go and I'd train and I

00:52:04.220 was lethargic and tired and low energy. And I would still train because that's what you're quote unquote

00:52:09.200 supposed to do. And then I ended up hurting myself through a combination of being dumb and arrogant

00:52:14.320 and just my body being beat down. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's,

00:52:19.920 again, you make a great case for like, you know, the whole no pain, no gain. Well, it's like, I,

00:52:25.820 I challenge that because it's like, it's no pain, no gain. If you're coming from a good foundation,

00:52:30.580 you know, if you're well and you're healthy and you're vital, fine, you know, hit it because you've

00:52:35.100 got the foundation for it. But if you're fragile and you've got niggling issues in my mind,

00:52:40.080 if you've got niggling issues or you've got vulnerabilities, your nervous system's clearly

00:52:44.560 overburdened. And to me, that suggests like some sympathetic, what we call sympathetic dominance

00:52:49.100 in the nervous system. And like, in that case, like, you know, you have to train according to

00:52:54.960 what you're, what you feel like your body's, you know, it comes back to intuition, like,

00:52:58.880 because what you say there in my mind, if I was you, it's like, okay, cool. My body's trying to tell

00:53:02.400 me maybe I'm not as primed as I should be. And why is that? Maybe I'm overexerting myself. How can I

00:53:08.520 help correct that? It's like, maybe I fall, maybe I reduce it for frequency. Maybe I reduce the

00:53:13.640 intensity. Maybe I look at my nutrition and make sure that I'm getting the right micronutrients.

00:53:17.560 Do you know what I mean? There's a whole myriad of what I call like pillars, like these,

00:53:21.000 these, these things that underpin our vitality. And it's just making sure that, you know,

00:53:26.060 they're on, they're on song in terms of they're all dialed in the way that it should be. And invariably,

00:53:30.860 if you're seeing like the context that you described there, it's like, maybe something's,

00:53:35.020 there's obviously something a bit off, you know, and right. But yeah, so.

00:53:40.880 Well, and I think, you know, one of the things, and this is, I think this is pretty conventional.

00:53:44.640 Most people at this point, I think probably know if they're somewhat in tune with their health is how

00:53:49.000 important sleep is. So I, I don't want to hit too much on that. Cause I do want to hit on a subject

00:53:53.440 that I think is often overlooked, but when it comes to sleep, maybe very briefly, but you know,

00:53:58.580 what, what is optimal? Um, not only cause you talk about, uh, quality over quantity in sleep as well.

00:54:05.400 So I'd like to hit on that and then move into one other thing I want to do address.

00:54:08.620 Yeah. Yeah. So I find that a lot of the rhetoric, which I find frustrating is it's like, oh, you need

00:54:13.480 to sleep seven hours or eight hours. And you hear that repetitive, you know, that's grilled in like

00:54:17.880 everyone's saying seven, eight hours, seven, eight hours. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. Well

00:54:21.820 that, that assumes that everyone's coming from the same pre-bed hygiene. Like it's so, it's so

00:54:28.980 basic and, um, uh, it, it, it lacks so much like, um, in terms of the quality, what that

00:54:37.160 misses is the quality play around. Okay. Well, given the, um, we know that light environments

00:54:42.080 can impact melatonin levels by 80%, like they've proven led lights and fluorescent lights can

00:54:46.960 suppress melatonin production by 80 to 40%. Then the duration play.

00:54:51.820 I'm very skeptical of on the basis that really depends on, uh, it really depends on your

00:54:59.160 environment with regards to, particularly with light. Again, that can also come into if you eat

00:55:03.040 late as well, like eating late can impact sleep, but particularly light. And then, and then most

00:55:07.360 households, we've got fluorescent and led lights that have got a lot of artificial blue light.

00:55:12.320 Exactly. They are everywhere. Exactly. And they've even made incandescent. I think they've even made

00:55:16.780 incandescent halogen bulbs in the U S illegal now. So the things that, that you should replace

00:55:21.800 and help yourself, they made it illegal. Yeah. Sounds about par for the course.

00:55:26.000 Yeah, I know. Exactly. I agree. I agree. But, um, but, um, yeah, so that I'm a big fan of quality

00:55:31.760 because it's like, if you optimize for quality, then I, you know, in myself and guys I work with,

00:55:35.920 like they'll sleep five, six hours and they'll feel like they've slept seven or eight because

00:55:38.920 they've got, because they've got their light environment and they've, they've eaten at the

00:55:42.460 right time beforehand. And therefore they haven't suppressed melatonin production. And therefore,

00:55:46.460 if you're not suppressing melatonin production by 40 to 80%, you'll, you, you think you're

00:55:51.240 sleeping well, you wait until you optimize your light environment and you put blue light

00:55:55.520 blockers on and use red lights or, or even better like candles or, um, you wait, you wait

00:56:01.420 to how good you'll sleep. If you get that right, because you'll feel superhuman on the even

00:56:05.620 on much less sleep. And I think again, that's lost a lot of the rhetoric. It's always duration,

00:56:10.580 duration because it's so simplistic. Whereas actually it's not, it's let's optimize for quality,

00:56:14.540 make sure that we're, we're doing that right. And then everything else will look after itself.

00:56:19.180 Yeah. I think I found for me, the biggest thing I actually, I read an article or saw something and,

00:56:24.280 uh, it was to get rid of all the light in your room, but every light. And so I went through on,

00:56:29.660 you know, my TV, my computer, I've got a dashboard here. I've got all these things here

00:56:33.320 that I would unplug everything or put a little piece of electrical tape. I've got a power surge here.

00:56:37.920 It's got a little power button. It's red. I put a little piece of electrical tape over everything.

00:56:42.240 And the first night it was just pitch black. I actually had to get up during the middle of

00:56:46.140 the night and stumbled all over everything, stub my toe on my bed and doorframe and everything else.

00:56:50.160 But it was that dark. And then the other thing that really was helpful is sleeping cold. I,

00:56:55.660 and I don't know if that's, if there's science behind that, but I've seen some things. I set my

00:57:00.140 thermostat to about 68 at night and my fans going and it's, it's cold. Like it is,

00:57:06.440 it is objectively cold in my room when I'm sleeping, but I, I feel like I sleep so much better

00:57:12.240 for sure. For sure. And, and, um, I do think it depends on like latitude, you know, like in the

00:57:18.180 nutrition debate, I don't think latitude, latitude is given enough credit in terms of like, um, and the

00:57:23.460 same with sleep. Like it's hard to sleep cold if you live on the equator. So it's like, how come

00:57:27.860 people are sleeping well on the equator who are also sleeping well in Northern latitudes where it's

00:57:31.880 cold? Like if it was, if, if it was as simple as it's good to sleep cold, it's like, well,

00:57:36.220 what do you do if you're on the equator? Do you know what I mean? So no, but I just find as a guy

00:57:40.420 that's passionate about the nuance to me, and it's the same with nutrition. It's like, oh, do keto.

00:57:44.020 It's like, well, if you're on, if you're living in the, in the equator and you've got equatorial,

00:57:47.520 equatorial genetics, they've never done keto because there's, they have very little fat on

00:57:53.060 the equator because there's lots of sun. So again, it's like, and so I do think there's nuance with

00:57:59.340 regards to where, you know, if you've got, if you're depending on your genetic makeup, blah, blah,

00:58:03.660 blah, blah, blah, et cetera. So, and the same can be said for, you know, tips like that. I do think

00:58:07.420 in some cases, maybe it's white Caucasian men that have Northern latitudes. We do better in cold

00:58:12.180 environments because that's where our ancestry was from, but it may be different for someone that's,

00:58:15.780 you know, from interesting. Do you know what I mean? So that's, that's how I look at it. Um,

00:58:20.460 and so, um, I do think, you know, that works for some people. Um, people, I have clients that try

00:58:27.080 eight sleep and they tend to send it back because it doesn't get them the results they think, but it

00:58:31.140 tends, that's a very popular one. It is. What is eight sleep? Is that the mattress or something?

00:58:35.420 Yeah. It's a map. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard some interesting anecdotes on that for

00:58:39.980 sure. Um, but I think generally speaking mouth tape, you know, to encourage nasal breathing is a

00:58:44.920 huge one. Um, particularly I tried that and almost died one night. It felt like I woke up and I was

00:58:50.640 like choking on my own saliva. I'm like, normally I must drool all over. Cause I'm like this plus the

00:58:55.840 facial hair isn't really a conducive to putting a bunch of tape over my mouth. Well, you know,

00:59:01.580 you know, if, if you wake up with a pot, if you wake up with a dry mouth, um, or you snore,

00:59:07.700 or if you know that you snore, that's usually a good indicator that you're mouth breathing.

00:59:11.940 Um, and if you've got no head posture, Oh, you do snore. Okay. I do snore. Yeah. Okay. Well,

00:59:17.660 maybe, you know, that could be an indicator. I'll try it again. I might have to wrap it around my

00:59:22.400 whole head so it stays on, you know, but I'll give, I'm willing to give it another try.

00:59:26.540 It does work. I think what I would say on that is obviously it depends, you know,

00:59:29.860 if you've got forward head posture, but if you can't do mouth taping and you have issues with

00:59:34.540 that, it may be, you have a posture, like a posture issue. Yeah. I do my head. I know that

00:59:39.160 my head kind of tucks back like, you know, yeah. Well, mine's forward. I'm trying to correct at

00:59:44.180 the moment. And I know that cause I snore and, um, I sometimes the mouth tape sometimes works for me,

00:59:49.000 but sometimes it doesn't. And I'm convinced cause I end up sleeping on my back and because my pillow

00:59:54.220 gets stuck, it pushes my head forward, which then restricts the airway. So my body's like,

00:59:58.000 Oh, we need to get, we need to get air. Exactly. Exactly. So, um, I do think it depends,

01:00:04.640 but like, yeah. Um, mouth tape, uh, like you say, in your case, like for some people to sleep,

01:00:09.920 you can get a heavy, heavy duvet can sometimes help as well. Like getting an air filter,

01:00:15.100 having the window open, I think it's a huge one, uh, or getting a, um, a HEPA, HEPA air filter

01:00:22.220 that you can get that goes on during the night. Um, it's going to really help. Um, and eating,

01:00:28.680 you know, eating, getting all your food by 7 PM. I think that's a big one. I think a lot of people

01:00:32.320 tend to eat too late, uh, but also top topical magnesium chloride in most in the supplement.

01:00:39.180 I recommend guys most, and obviously I'm not medical, so this isn't advice, but, um, I do find

01:00:45.180 in my own experience that, uh, topical magnesium chloride that you, that you douse on your shoulders

01:00:49.940 and neck, um, makes a huge difference to just helping you feel calm and relaxed. And to some

01:00:55.400 degree inositol, um, as, as definitely helped me massively. Um, so there's definitely, I know

01:01:02.680 Huberman talks about epigenin or you've got L, uh, magnesium L3 and eight, and you've got, um, I mean,

01:01:08.580 there's loads of sleep supplements, aren't there? And I'm sure there's a, there's a, there's a real,

01:01:14.380 uh, minefield, but, um, yeah, it's hard. It's hard to figure out sometimes what really

01:01:19.620 works, but usually it's the basics. The other thing I wanted to address, and this is one that

01:01:25.820 I've seen and heard about and, and anecdotally, I can see how this makes sense to improve testosterone

01:01:31.840 naturally is the idea of competing with other men and specifically winning. I think I've seen

01:01:38.460 studies that suggest that not only is competition important, but winning for men is important. And

01:01:43.380 just the act of winning a competition will actually boost. I don't know how long that's sustainable,

01:01:48.440 but will actually in the short term, at least boost testosterone levels. Is that accurate?

01:01:52.840 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Cause there's also like, I've seen some studies where a man's

01:01:57.660 testosterone will actually dictate the hormonal profiles of his, of his spouse, his wife, and his,

01:02:03.100 and his children in terms of like, it almost, it almost is like the way, and I don't know whether

01:02:09.320 that could easily be, uh, it could easily be a case of how, just how, you know, as men,

01:02:14.380 how we exert ourselves and then the kind of consequent, um, uh, uh, ways in which that's

01:02:20.280 kind of computed by the feminine or, or, or kids.

01:02:23.060 Well, I mean, one alone, I think would be, this is something I've seen a lot of guys,

01:02:27.180 you know, and they might, um, overreact to certain situations, but if a man can be emotionally stable,

01:02:33.080 then obviously that's going to reduce cortisol levels in his wife.

01:02:36.360 Exactly.

01:02:36.800 Exactly. So, I mean, that's a small example right there of how that physiological would work.

01:02:42.280 Exactly. Exactly. And I, and you, you know, I'd make a strong case for if your hormones are

01:02:47.140 optimized, you know, as a man, we, you shouldn't be reacting really to, to anything because, um,

01:02:54.820 uh, it, it, you know, it shows weakness in the sense of, um, that that thing has power over us.

01:03:00.900 Right. Um, so, you know, I found the higher my testosterone and the more healthy I become,

01:03:05.920 um, the less, the, the more desensitized I've become to things that would otherwise try and

01:03:11.600 trigger me, you know, or, or try and provoke me in a way. And I think, um, you'll find,

01:03:15.800 you'll find that when you start, you know, like you said, training with other men, I think brother,

01:03:20.620 having a brotherhood, generally speaking is phenomenal, not only for accountability fit.

01:03:25.880 And it can be physical accountability in terms of like, in your case, jujitsu or whatever,

01:03:29.140 but also like emotional accountability. Like, you know, we're living in this world where we're,

01:03:34.440 as men, we're being conditioned that vulnerability is strength. And, um, and I think, uh, I definitely

01:03:40.460 challenge that on the basis that I think, yeah, I think as men, it's important to be vulnerable,

01:03:44.160 but I think it's important to be vulnerable with other, with other men, um, as opposed to,

01:03:47.880 as opposed to your, as opposed to your wife or your girlfriend, um, you know, that that's not the

01:03:52.300 domain to do it. And therefore I actually think we have a huge deficiency in, in brotherhood and

01:03:58.320 men that can hold space for difficult and uncomfortable conversations. And I think desperately

01:04:02.860 we need to create or have, or actively seek ways in which we can find men that we can,

01:04:08.860 that we can do that with. Cause I think there's a huge shortage and there's a reason why,

01:04:12.120 you know, male suicides is the biggest killer in men below 45. And I think there's a reason why,

01:04:17.060 you know, men tend to suffer more from, uh, some mood disorders as well. And it's because we just,

01:04:22.940 we, we are isolated and we feel like we can't chat. And I think, you know, we can,

01:04:28.120 and we just need to find the right men to be able to do it with. And that's difficult. I empathize

01:04:31.620 with, with guys in that, in that, cause it's difficult to find that.

01:04:35.700 Yeah. Well, Simo, I really appreciate this, man. There's been a lot of good insight here,

01:04:40.100 and I'm sure you've got so much more to share. There's even a few pointers that I've taken away

01:04:43.940 that, and this is something that I try to focus on. I'm not optimized by any means what I say,

01:04:48.400 but there's a few pointers in here that I think I can implement in my own life that I imagine will,

01:04:53.020 will show improvement. If men have listened to this and they're interested in learning more

01:04:58.120 what you do, more about your information, more about what you offer, what's the best way to

01:05:02.220 connect with you? Yeah. Just my Twitter, if you, at your Simo on my, at my Twitter, that's a best

01:05:07.880 way to find me. Yeah. That's how I found you and that's how it was recommended. So a lot of good

01:05:12.620 stuff on Twitter. And then you have a newsletter too, that, uh, comes out. Is that every week that

01:05:17.560 it comes out or? Yeah. It's meant to be every week at the moment. It's, it's not as consistent

01:05:21.220 at that, but yeah, I get that. I definitely understand that. Yeah. We'll sync everything

01:05:28.220 up. Yeah. We'll sync it all up. So the guys know where to go, brother. I appreciate you, man. I'm

01:05:32.320 looking forward to maybe more conversations in the future and, uh, implementing some of this stuff for

01:05:36.240 me and also some of the guys that listen. So thanks for taking your time with us today.

01:05:39.940 Likewise. Cheers, Ron. Thanks.

01:05:43.080 Gentlemen, there you go. Testosterone optimization. I know this is on a lot of men's minds. This is

01:05:50.060 something that I've been actively working on improving in my own life. And as my testosterone

01:05:53.920 levels increase, uh, I noticed that there's just a renewed sense of vigor and energy and

01:06:00.480 life and enthusiasm and hope and optimism, uh, not to mention the physical, uh, results that

01:06:06.220 I've been experiencing too. So, uh, please make sure whether you're looking at it naturally

01:06:10.660 or you're doing it with, uh, responsibly with TRT, make sure you're, you're maximizing these

01:06:17.920 levels. Make sure you're getting your blood work done. Uh, you're working with professionals.

01:06:22.720 You're working to optimize your health and including your hormones. And I think you're

01:06:26.820 going to live a better life. And I also believe that you're going to be a better man. You're

01:06:29.940 going to be able to better serve the people around you. Uh, check out Simo on Twitter.

01:06:34.820 That's where he is most active at your Simo S I M M O. Uh, also while you're there, make

01:06:40.920 sure you, uh, follow along with me at Ryan Mickler, M I C H L E R. Uh, and then outside

01:06:48.020 of that guys, make sure to check out the iron council. Uh, as Simo and I talked about today,

01:06:52.560 having a good group of men are in your corner is crucial. And you can do that at order of

01:06:56.340 man.com slash iron council. All right, guys, those are your marching orders. We'll be back

01:07:02.260 tomorrow for our ask me anything until then go out there, take action and become the man

01:07:06.820 you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to

01:07:13.560 take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to

01:07:17.780 join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - September 24, 2024

SIMMO ｜ A Primer on Testosterone

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