Order of Man - STEVE CHOU ｜ How to Lead Your Business and Your Family

00:00:00.100 Running a business and leading a family can be such a challenging aspect of life.

00:00:05.180 Both require so much time and attention, and although similar in a lot of ways, the way

00:00:10.160 you lead professionally is not always translatable to leading personally.

00:00:14.960 My guest today is Steve Chu, the author of The Family First Entrepreneur.

00:00:18.660 Today, Steve and I talk about not being a stranger to your kids, practical strategies for avoiding

00:00:24.060 burnout and unnecessary stress, whether you should stay at your current employment or

00:00:29.500 quote-unquote burn the boats, so to speak, when starting a side business, and how side

00:00:35.000 hustles boost confidence.

00:00:37.080 Guys, a lot of these things I wish I would have learned a whole lot sooner.

00:00:40.460 I think it's going to serve you well.

00:00:41.660 You're a man of action.

00:00:43.020 You live life to the fullest.

00:00:44.460 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:47.360 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time.

00:00:51.420 You are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:56.840 This is your life.

00:00:57.900 This is who you are.

00:00:59.000 This is who you will become at the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you

00:01:04.200 can call yourself a man.

00:01:06.180 Gentlemen, what is going on today?

00:01:07.520 My name is Ryan Michler.

00:01:08.860 I'm your host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement.

00:01:12.780 If you're brand new to what we're doing here, this is a mission to help you as a man.

00:01:17.800 We want to give you tools, resources, conversations, products, information, events, whatever you need to improve your life as a husband, a father, a business owner, a community leader, just a man in general who might have a desire to grow and build and develop, but not quite have all the tools at his disposal.

00:01:37.500 It's my job to give those tools to you, and we do that through this podcast.

00:01:41.700 We've got Steve Chu on the podcast today.

00:01:43.700 We've got other incredible men like Jocko Willink and Tim Kennedy and Tim Tebow and Ben Shapiro and Matthew McConaughey and Grant Cardone and Andy Frisilla and David Goggins.

00:01:54.120 You can go back and you can check out the archives and see who we've had on and pick out a few of your favorite episodes if you haven't listened for any amount of time.

00:02:00.820 So if you have, I need you to do something.

00:02:03.180 Leave a rating and review.

00:02:04.400 It goes a long way to promote what we're doing here.

00:02:06.600 This is a men's movement. 0.96

00:02:07.640 It's a grassroots movement.

00:02:09.020 I don't ask for a whole lot.

00:02:10.240 If you want to join our programs and courses, sure, we have those available.

00:02:13.440 But if you're tuning in and you're listening, this is something that we provide as a free resource to you.

00:02:18.180 It means a lot if you would, as Andy Frisilla would say, pay the fee and just leave a rating and review.

00:02:24.280 All right, I'd appreciate that.

00:02:25.840 Guys, let me introduce you to my guest.

00:02:27.340 His name is Steve Chu.

00:02:28.080 He's a repeat guest.

00:02:28.880 He's an extremely, extremely successful entrepreneur, making his way into the world of entrepreneurship by selling handkerchiefs, of all things, online with his wife.

00:02:39.680 And what started as a way to make a few additional dollars ended up becoming an extremely lucrative business and springboarded Steve and his wife into serial entrepreneurship.

00:02:49.880 He's introduced thousands of people, including myself.

00:02:52.460 Not introduced, but helped me in this world of e-commerce and has been featured in Forbes, the New York Times, Entrepreneur, MSNBC, and his podcast, My Wife Quit Her Job, which is a great name, by the way, because isn't that what a lot of guys want?

00:03:07.800 My Wife Quit Her Job. 0.99

00:03:08.740 I love that name.

00:03:09.480 Anyways, his podcast is consistently ranked in the top 25 marketing podcasts in the world.

00:03:15.200 Gents, enjoy this one. 0.70

00:03:18.700 Steve, what's up, brother?

00:03:19.600 Great to see you again.

00:03:20.440 It's been years, but glad to have you back on.

00:03:23.420 I was checking the last email correspondence, and I think it was over a decade ago.

00:03:27.820 Is that possible?

00:03:28.820 No, no, it's not possible.

00:03:30.220 Not possible.

00:03:30.880 Okay.

00:03:31.080 It's probably close, though.

00:03:33.000 A decade.

00:03:33.860 That sounds crazy.

00:03:34.940 I think we recorded in 2016, if I remember correctly, because I started in 2015, so eight years ago certainly would have been possible, but I think it's six, seven years ago.

00:03:49.000 That sounds about right.

00:03:50.020 That sounds about right.

00:03:51.180 Yeah.

00:03:51.520 I just can't believe.

00:03:52.520 I mean, obviously, your business has grown.

00:03:54.580 What we're doing here has grown.

00:03:55.700 It's pretty cool to see guys that I talked with in the early stages of this movement to see what they've developed and built and to see what we've built, and it's really cool to connect with people again.

00:04:05.980 I mean, I just love people that follow through, and clearly, I mean, your business has lasted the test of time.

00:04:11.020 Your podcast has, and that's great.

00:04:13.240 Well, I think that's a rarity, right?

00:04:14.700 People, well, thank you, first and foremost.

00:04:17.480 I feel the same way about what you're doing, but I think it is a rarity, and it's interesting as we talk with men.

00:04:22.940 And one of the things that I feel like we can do as men to set ourselves apart, whether it's in the business market or the dating market, is just to say what you mean, mean what you say, follow through on your commitments, stay consistent.

00:04:37.640 When you mess up, and we all do, fix it, correct it, keep going, don't deviate.

00:04:44.420 It's not a complex process, but man, look, I struggle too.

00:04:49.720 We all struggle.

00:04:50.320 I mean, this is why I like your pod too, because I feel like this generation just kind of gives up too easily, and that's just something that I've been instilling my kids.

00:04:59.200 Just follow through, suck it up, and just get through it.

00:05:04.180 Yeah.

00:05:05.180 I mean, in a lot of ways, I think about the generations that are coming up.

00:05:08.300 They have huge advantages that we didn't have, right?

00:05:10.800 Like I think about my oldest son and his desire to start his own podcast and do things similar to what I was doing.

00:05:17.180 And I had a friend who was talking with him and said, I hope you understand the lessons and the coaching and the mentoring that you're receiving.

00:05:27.800 This would be hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions of dollars, to go out and get this on your own, because you and I have created it.

00:05:34.600 But I'm wondering what you think about it, especially as it relates to family, because I know, obviously, family is crucial to you.

00:05:40.580 The business is important to you.

00:05:42.580 Like, where's the line of presenting our children with opportunities that maybe we didn't have, but then on the other side of it, giving them too much so that they don't go through the trial and error that we went through to help us be successful?

00:05:57.800 You know, it's funny, Ryan.

00:05:59.100 I found that my kids like to copy us.

00:06:02.880 So my kids were actually interested in starting their own e-commerce store.

00:06:07.620 And they started it when they were 9, 11 years old.

00:06:10.660 And my wife and I, we tried not to help.

00:06:14.360 They basically invested their own money.

00:06:16.200 They kind of struggled through the website.

00:06:18.180 They struggled through the design.

00:06:20.080 You know, we helped them with a couple of things.

00:06:21.900 But essentially, they made $1,000 in their first month.

00:06:25.240 And they largely did things by themselves.

00:06:28.740 And, you know, I documented this entire process.

00:06:33.180 But along the way, there were some tears.

00:06:35.380 So they started a t-shirt business selling entrepreneurship t-shirts for kids.

00:06:40.880 And the way we marketed it together was we created these videos on YouTube that we posted on Facebook and social.

00:06:47.140 And people just loved their cute videos and they wanted to support them.

00:06:49.760 But I remember, you know, during the filming of those videos, like if you're not used to doing video, you struggle as soon as that camera starts recording.

00:06:59.540 And my kids struggled.

00:07:00.740 They cried.

00:07:01.640 And every time we filmed a video for like, I would say, the first three videos, they would cry for like 10, 15 minutes.

00:07:08.720 But we kept doing it.

00:07:10.580 I said, hey, we're not stopping until we get this done.

00:07:13.580 And just over a period of, I would say, several weeks, they kind of got used to it.

00:07:19.420 So when you say they cried, I also think there's a line between, look, I don't know where it is.

00:07:26.600 I'm trying to figure it out myself.

00:07:28.240 Yeah.

00:07:28.520 Where we're being motivational and inspirational and giving them a little bit of positive encouragement, maybe pushing them past their comfort zone and then taking it too far.

00:07:39.720 And how do you find the line there?

00:07:41.860 You know, when you say they cried for 15 minutes, it's like, well, do you keep going in that instance?

00:07:47.880 Do you pull back?

00:07:49.160 Do you change your approach?

00:07:50.460 Like, what does that actually look like?

00:07:52.940 It depends on the situation.

00:07:54.600 But sometimes if you just take a break, 10, 15 minute break for them to calm down, then you try again, then you try again.

00:08:00.900 Here's the thing, Ryan.

00:08:01.580 I was actually brought up in a pretty strict household, just like a traditional Chinese household where, I mean, I was studying the SATs when I was in fourth grade because I needed to take it in order to qualify for this nerd camp. 0.98

00:08:13.280 So I went through stuff that's like much worse than like I put my kids through.

00:08:17.860 And looking back now on that, I just thank my parents for putting me through that because now I feel like it just came out that much stronger.

00:08:25.880 Like I can take a lot of crap and still get through stuff and have a really good attention span and I follow through on everything that I do.

00:08:34.700 And that's basically what I was trying to do with my kids with this video because they weren't really giving me any good excuses why they couldn't do it.

00:08:42.100 They were just frustrated, you know, and it's understandable.

00:08:44.820 When you do something new, you get frustrated, but just, you know, take 15 minutes, calm down.

00:08:49.280 We'll try again.

00:08:50.240 It's all good.

00:08:50.780 That's interesting with your family and cultural upbringing.

00:08:56.360 I mean, I think that's pretty stereotypical.

00:08:58.480 Like if I were to think that, you know, we think of, you're Chinese, is that right?

00:09:02.540 That's correct.

00:09:03.020 Yeah.

00:09:03.440 So generally look, and maybe I'm not saying this correctly, but like we generally think of Asian communities or Asian culture being very challenging,

00:09:13.660 focused heavily on education, focused heavily on success and results.

00:09:20.000 And, you know, we see that.

00:09:21.100 We see that play out within your community, I imagine, as well.

00:09:25.100 It does.

00:09:25.680 On the flip side, I do see values in not pushing them also and just letting them explore.

00:09:32.220 Um, my, my sister-in-law, uh, married a non-Asian husband and they have different parenting styles.

00:09:41.560 And what I found is just letting them explore actually, at least with my nephews, it causes them to be a little bit more bold, so to speak, try new things.

00:09:51.920 Whereas if you're just too strict, sometimes they tend to just follow the rules, right?

00:09:57.740 And not go out of those boundaries.

00:09:59.320 So it's like a delicate balance, I think.

00:10:00.940 Yeah, that's really interesting.

00:10:02.780 I guess I hadn't considered that, but yeah, it's, it's trying to toe the line and extract from your upbringing what you thought was valuable and then interjecting new thoughts, new beliefs, new ideas, new experiences so that you can maybe give them opportunities that they didn't have before or you personally weren't exposed to.

00:10:20.520 You know, it's really funny, Ryan.

00:10:22.120 I was actually brought up in a household where I was taught that if you just work hard with your head down, people will notice and they will just notice and give you awards and gratitude for what you do.

00:10:35.620 And it wasn't until I started my businesses did I realize that that was completely false, at least in the US, right?

00:10:42.020 You need to ask for what you want in order to receive and you need to be a little bit more, I don't know what the right word is, but you need to be a little more bragging about yourself in order to get ahead.

00:10:54.860 But yeah, you do need to, you need, well, nobody else is going to do it for you.

00:10:58.800 So you do need to promote a little bit.

00:11:00.340 And, and look, I'm a marketer at heart.

00:11:02.040 I believe in the value of marketing.

00:11:03.600 That's part of the reason we've had so much success.

00:11:05.820 So yeah, it is important to promote yourself.

00:11:09.040 I do.

00:11:09.980 I do always laugh at the work hard mentality.

00:11:12.720 I know plenty of hard workers that couldn't run, rub two nickels together, you know?

00:11:16.700 And it's like, okay, so is working hard the formula?

00:11:19.760 Well, I would say it's part of it, but too many people believe that if I just work harder, I'm going to have success.

00:11:27.240 No, you could work harder doing the wrong things and not have success.

00:11:32.280 We need to figure out the right things to be doing.

00:11:35.100 I see this on social media.

00:11:36.380 Oftentimes too, people will say, oh, my, you know, my, my channel's not taking off or my social media, people aren't interested.

00:11:42.520 I'm working so hard.

00:11:44.200 They don't care how hard you're working.

00:11:45.940 What they care about is your message, the way you can serve them, the way you can help them, the way you can benefit their lives.

00:11:53.140 And once you wrap your head around that, a lot more success in that for sure.

00:11:57.240 Yeah, there's definitely a distinction between working hard and working smart.

00:12:01.540 I think most entrepreneurs, when they first start out, they work hard.

00:12:06.440 And then once they, once things maybe get out of hand, you kind of learn to work smarter so that you can actually free up some time to spend with the people that you love and that sort of thing.

00:12:15.940 That's the, that's been the biggest struggle for me is, is I'm naturally drawn to business.

00:12:23.200 It speaks to me.

00:12:25.140 It's, it's, I won't say it's easy, but it comes naturally for me is what I would say.

00:12:30.360 And what ends up happening, because I am so focused on it and I've equated it with the idea of providing for the people I care about.

00:12:38.020 Is that sometimes those people I care about get left in the dust.

00:12:43.500 And that's a lot of the work that you do is how do you grow businesses?

00:12:47.320 How do you create success in your life at, but not at the expense of your family and your loved ones?

00:12:54.560 Yeah.

00:12:54.640 So what's funny is I did fall into that trap and we started our business originally so that my wife could stay at home with the kids.

00:13:03.340 That's why my blog is called my wife quit her job. 1.00

00:13:05.600 We started selling handkerchiefs online.

00:13:07.900 We, we replaced her salary within a year and that was the goal for our business.

00:13:11.480 But once things started taking off and I don't know if this happened to you, Ryan, but I kind of got carried away.

00:13:18.400 I wanted to just grow it, grow it, grow it.

00:13:21.000 I was in these mastermind groups with people who are really successful and I wanted to be like them.

00:13:25.820 And so every year we would set these ridiculous goals and then we would hit them, maybe celebrate for a day and then set higher goals the next year.

00:13:35.340 And it got to the point where my wife came up to me and she said in frustration, Hey, I don't want to do this anymore. 0.99

00:13:43.080 This isn't fun.

00:13:44.200 We're already making way more than we spend.

00:13:46.560 So what is the point of making more money?

00:13:48.980 And it was at that point that I realized that it was my ego that was just kind of driving all these businesses to grow, grow, grow.

00:13:56.560 And we didn't really need, it wasn't really adding much marginal benefit to our lifestyle at all.

00:14:01.220 But how do you know if it's ego or if you do it for the intrinsic benefit of it or because you're serving people?

00:14:10.720 Look, I don't know much about handkerchiefs.

00:14:14.160 So on the outside looking in, I can't say that that's drastically going to improve somebody's life.

00:14:20.740 But your work now or my work, I would say it can drastically improve the quality of people's lives.

00:14:30.060 And so how do you know if the work that you're doing is egocentric and ego driven or you genuinely want to grow the movement, to grow the business, to grow your reach because you really care about serving those people in a powerful way?

00:14:44.020 Yeah, I think it just depends on the type of person you are.

00:14:46.420 I mean, that's very important to me as well.

00:14:48.820 And I've helped tons of people start their own businesses so they could improve their lifestyle.

00:14:54.080 But you have to remember why you start.

00:14:56.980 You have to have a purpose for your business.

00:14:59.360 My purpose for my businesses has always been to spend more time with family.

00:15:04.100 And this kind of just extends from my childhood.

00:15:07.720 My parents were first generation immigrants.

00:15:09.860 They came here with no money.

00:15:11.720 And they basically worked their butts off so that they could provide for the kids. 1.00

00:15:15.760 I didn't have to pay for college.

00:15:17.300 I came out with no debt whatsoever.

00:15:19.380 And I'm very thankful for that.

00:15:21.400 But they worked so hard, long hours, that I didn't really see them that often.

00:15:26.480 I remember I used to play club volleyball.

00:15:28.640 And it was a traveling team.

00:15:30.800 And I would look over at the sidelines when I was playing really well.

00:15:34.360 And my friend's parents were there, but mine weren't often.

00:15:38.280 I mean, they tried to make as many games as they could.

00:15:39.900 But they couldn't just pick up and travel because they had work.

00:15:42.600 And I didn't want that for my kids.

00:15:45.180 And so today, that's the purpose of my business is I coach their teams.

00:15:49.180 I don't miss any events.

00:15:50.980 And that's why I do it.

00:15:53.080 And I would say the helping others is certainly up there in terms of priority.

00:15:57.900 But family is first.

00:16:00.720 Yeah, that's good.

00:16:01.100 That's a good perspective to maintain.

00:16:02.960 So were you born in China or were you born in the US?

00:16:05.940 I was born in the US.

00:16:07.560 Okay.

00:16:07.820 So, and you have siblings too?

00:16:10.480 I have one brother.

00:16:12.020 And he was born in the US or in China?

00:16:14.120 He was born in the US also.

00:16:15.360 Yep.

00:16:16.140 So what is your take from your parents?

00:16:19.020 Are they still with us?

00:16:20.820 My dad passed away, but my mom is actually still working.

00:16:24.080 And she's 82, I think.

00:16:27.420 Oh, 82?

00:16:29.320 There's a good story behind why she's still working though.

00:16:32.220 She is a scientist.

00:16:33.280 She discovered a cure for a disease.

00:16:35.820 And right now that cure is undergoing clinical trials.

00:16:38.300 And so she's working just to see that trial through.

00:16:41.620 Whoa.

00:16:41.720 So this was just recently then she discovered this cure?

00:16:44.780 Uh-huh.

00:16:45.100 Recently within like the last five to 10 years.

00:16:47.520 Yeah.

00:16:48.140 Whoa.

00:16:48.560 So what brought your folks to the States then?

00:16:51.600 So my mom came on a research scholarship in molecular biology.

00:16:56.900 And my dad, he has a cooler story.

00:16:59.640 He stowed away on a ship to flee China to Taiwan.

00:17:02.600 And he left his entire family behind.

00:17:05.220 And then he came to the US to study.

00:17:08.100 Well, why did he flee?

00:17:09.580 Why did he flee?

00:17:10.520 Just conditions in mainland China.

00:17:12.160 It was during the communist revolution.

00:17:15.060 Yeah.

00:17:15.800 What's your mom's take on what's going on currently with China and Taiwan? 0.98

00:17:20.460 Because your dad has a connection clearly to Taiwan.

00:17:24.080 I think that she's just a little worried about the tensions.

00:17:28.520 We don't actually talk about this subject too much.

00:17:30.980 We talk most about our grandkids.

00:17:33.500 Like she just always asks about the kids.

00:17:35.580 But she is just worried.

00:17:38.560 She's worried kind of like about war, really.

00:17:42.820 And you're talking about Taiwan in particular, right?

00:17:44.920 With the summit collectors and everything.

00:17:46.320 Yeah.

00:17:46.540 Very curious about that.

00:17:47.560 Especially with the tensions we see ramping up between Taiwan and China.

00:17:52.080 I think my mom is a little bit more insulated from all that stuff too.

00:17:54.900 Because she just kind of heads down, does her work.

00:17:56.940 And then she comes home.

00:17:57.800 Because, you know, she's older now.

00:17:59.560 Yeah.

00:17:59.700 I know for myself, I've been experiencing a lot more Asian hate as of late.

00:18:06.160 Really?

00:18:06.500 In the States.

00:18:08.720 Oh, yeah.

00:18:09.200 Oh, yeah.

00:18:09.840 Definitely.

00:18:10.840 Because, you know, I mean, I don't want to speak for everyone.

00:18:13.860 But whenever I talk about sourcing from China, which is something that we do for e-commerce,

00:18:19.600 like a lot of our products are sourced from China, I get a lot of flack for it.

00:18:24.860 Is that, would you say that's Asian hate?

00:18:27.460 Or would you say that's just patriotism or something else?

00:18:31.220 Well, there's, it's both, actually.

00:18:34.960 There's some just outright Asian hate.

00:18:37.700 And I think it just happened because of our last president, you know, with the tariffs.

00:18:43.040 And, you know, we're kind of locked into this battle right now, I feel.

00:18:48.600 Like, I feel like China is our biggest adversary right now to the U.S.

00:18:51.620 And so, it just naturally gets reflected in the comments I get.

00:18:55.740 Yeah, I can see it.

00:18:56.840 Yeah.

00:18:57.700 I don't, I don't, I mean, obviously, this is not the direction I thought we would go.

00:19:01.020 Well, I'm just curious because these cultural, these cultural events are, they're important

00:19:05.000 to me.

00:19:05.480 I'm, I'm, I'm obviously vested in them and, and, and I care about what's going on here.

00:19:10.580 And yeah, I'm, but I'm always, I'm always, I wouldn't say skeptical, just question the

00:19:19.400 language that we use.

00:19:20.440 You know, like we'll hear a lot of times the phrase transphobic.

00:19:25.700 It's like, okay, well, what does that mean?

00:19:27.180 That means you're afraid of, of those who, who claim to be trans. 0.99

00:19:32.020 Like, is, is that really the issue?

00:19:34.200 Is it, is that you're, that you're afraid or that you hate that?

00:19:38.200 No, it, it may mean something completely different.

00:19:40.540 So I'm, I'm curious about your experience with, with hate versus a dislike or, or it may

00:19:48.400 be fueled by something else altogether.

00:19:50.860 You know what I'm saying?

00:19:51.600 Ryan, yeah, you know, I, I've just learned not to respond.

00:19:56.260 So I don't actually get into the discussion with any of these people, obviously, unless

00:20:00.340 it's like a reasonable action.

00:20:02.340 Here's how I see it, Ryan.

00:20:04.580 The fact that I'm getting these hate comments means that I'm probably doing something right.

00:20:11.380 Well, you're getting attention, right.

00:20:13.520 And you're being noticed.

00:20:14.460 I mean, we get our fair share of criticism too.

00:20:16.480 And it's like, you know, and a lot of times it's from faceless, nameless Facebook and Instagram

00:20:22.060 accounts.

00:20:22.640 It's like you, whoever this is really took the time out of their day to go create an

00:20:30.120 account online purely so they could troll you.

00:20:34.200 I, I, that that's unfathomable to me.

00:20:37.100 It's so strange.

00:20:38.880 Here's the type of comment I get the most.

00:20:40.640 It's the fact that immigrants are taking away U S jobs and the fact that we're getting 1.00

00:20:45.960 all these imports from China.

00:20:49.120 Everyone's always like, Hey, I want made in the USA.

00:20:51.520 I want made in the USA. 0.94

00:20:53.260 That's what they say.

00:20:54.440 But when you realize that, uh, I'll give you an example, like a handkerchief that I buy

00:20:58.940 in China might be 50 cents.

00:21:00.660 If I were to buy that same handkerchief in the United States, it'd be $4, right?

00:21:04.400 So if you want made in the USA, are you willing to pay eight X the amount for that item?

00:21:09.000 Most people are not.

00:21:09.880 So they say they want to support made in the USA, but they aren't willing to pay the

00:21:13.380 prices.

00:21:14.100 This even happens in our store.

00:21:15.520 They, people always ask, they go, Hey, was this made in China or was this made in the

00:21:19.880 U S and I tell them, Hey, we, we do have made in the U S options if you want.

00:21:24.140 And we steer them over to the made in the U S options.

00:21:26.980 But when we tell them the prices, they end up buying the Chinese product anyway.

00:21:31.780 Yeah.

00:21:31.860 Right.

00:21:32.220 Well, a couple of things on that.

00:21:33.400 Number one, you're not, you're not an immigrant. 1.00

00:21:35.020 You're born in the U S you just said that.

00:21:37.500 So yeah.

00:21:38.300 Let's just call that out for what it is.

00:21:41.060 And even if you were, it would, that wouldn't matter either.

00:21:43.180 I mean, isn't that the great American dream that we can have this place for people to pursue

00:21:46.900 opportunities.

00:21:48.500 The other side of it with regards to made in China versus made in the U S look, I understand

00:21:53.380 that.

00:21:53.720 I would love, I would love more people to buy from, from those, those companies and organizations

00:22:00.020 that make things here in America.

00:22:01.040 So I think you either do it and pay more, like you're saying, or create the framework,

00:22:06.920 create the structure, create the manufacturing, create the system and start building things

00:22:10.260 in America.

00:22:10.820 Like, don't just say you want to do something or something else to be done.

00:22:14.800 Like go create it.

00:22:16.180 You, we all have that opportunity to do that.

00:22:17.980 And that is the great American dream in my mind.

00:22:19.640 And this is actually why we do all the custom embroidery in the U S I mean, technically we

00:22:25.540 can call ourselves made in the U S, but we, you know, we, we don't say that our items are

00:22:29.820 made from the U S, but we handle everything.

00:22:31.900 All of our personalization is done in-house in our warehouse.

00:22:34.380 So with, with regards to the business, so you, you have the handkerchief business that

00:22:39.540 you, do you still run that?

00:22:40.620 Do you still have that?

00:22:41.200 We do.

00:22:41.500 Yeah.

00:22:41.620 We actually just bought our own warehouse recently.

00:22:44.000 Oh, really?

00:22:44.680 Rents here in the U S in the U S.

00:22:48.680 Yeah.

00:22:49.280 The rents were getting out of control here in Northern California.

00:22:52.020 We're in the Bay area.

00:22:53.280 So they were jacking us for 30% increase in rent every single year.

00:22:57.160 So we decided to just buy a place and it's, it's been a great decision so far.

00:23:01.800 That's awesome.

00:23:02.440 And what other businesses do you have?

00:23:04.700 So obviously you have this business where you're teaching entrepreneurs, how to create

00:23:10.340 revenue that would replace their nine to five and create these side hustles that become

00:23:14.580 their lifestyle, their careers.

00:23:17.420 I'll give you the 60 second timeline.

00:23:19.400 So we started Bumblebee Linens, which is the handkerchief store.

00:23:22.180 So that my wife could quit. 1.00

00:23:23.720 We ended up making six figures in profit in our first year.

00:23:26.880 And that was great.

00:23:27.940 She quit her job, took care of the kids. 0.99

00:23:29.920 And then I decided to document our journey mainly because our friends were asking questions.

00:23:36.180 And so that's why my wife could her job.com was born. 1.00

00:23:38.420 It was kind of like a personal journal for my e-commerce store.

00:23:41.160 But what ended up happening is none of my friends read it.

00:23:43.560 I attracted a bunch of random strangers that were reading about it and they wanted to learn

00:23:48.480 what we did.

00:23:49.160 They asked for a class.

00:23:50.360 So my wife could her job.com is the blog. 1.00

00:23:53.000 I started a course in 2011 over at profitableonlinestore.com.

00:23:58.040 That led to a podcast, led to a YouTube channel, and that led to an annual e-commerce event that

00:24:04.360 I've been running for the past seven years called the Seller Summit.

00:24:07.400 And this year I have a book coming up.

00:24:09.600 That's awesome.

00:24:10.120 Um, I know there's a lot of guys that are dissatisfied in their work and I'm sure you've

00:24:15.240 run across that quite a bit.

00:24:16.780 You know, people are maybe even doing fairly well financially.

00:24:20.180 They've got a good income.

00:24:21.460 They've got a steady job.

00:24:22.640 Maybe they're waiting for their retirement to kick in.

00:24:25.100 It's funny.

00:24:25.560 The more guys I talk with lately, I don't feel old, but I talk with friends who are like,

00:24:31.120 yeah, I'm too.

00:24:31.780 Somebody I talked with yesterday and the police, he's like, I'm two years away from retirement.

00:24:36.000 Two years, bro, you're 42 years old.

00:24:39.800 Like, are we getting old or how are you two years away from retirement?

00:24:43.620 But these are individuals who, for one reason or the other, are dissatisfied in their work.

00:24:48.680 How would you suggest to somebody that they either get started with something?

00:24:53.180 Like, what do they look into?

00:24:54.560 How do they get started?

00:24:56.260 Whether they're looking at retirement or whether they want to step away from their corporate

00:24:59.820 job, what are some of the recommendations you give to people?

00:25:03.620 I think you always need to have a side hustle.

00:25:06.000 No matter what you're doing.

00:25:07.860 And I actually recommend that you stay at work as you're doing this.

00:25:11.780 Now, I think I've been teaching this class for a long time and you don't have to sell

00:25:15.700 physical products, but what you want to do is you want to just kind of think about everyday

00:25:21.000 problems that you have in your life.

00:25:23.220 I actually just recorded a podcast episode with my buddy, Nick Loper.

00:25:26.500 I think we're mutual friends or you know of Nick, right?

00:25:29.320 Yeah.

00:25:29.460 And what we did is we just brainstormed off the top of our heads, business ideas, and

00:25:34.600 we just put that in a podcast episode.

00:25:36.980 And I'll just give you some examples.

00:25:39.460 There was, I just went to vacation to Japan and I just got back and my plants all died.

00:25:45.820 So I was like, Hey, what if there was like a plant hotel where I could drop my plants off?

00:25:51.320 They would water them and take care of them.

00:25:52.680 And when I came back, they wouldn't be dead.

00:25:54.420 Right.

00:25:55.020 Simple, simple ideas like, yeah, interesting.

00:25:57.460 You know, and if you just take a moment and look at your life, chances are you got a lot

00:26:02.720 of problems and there's a lot of things that you could think of that would make your life

00:26:05.780 easier.

00:26:06.500 And those are the best side hustles to pursue.

00:26:09.120 Yeah.

00:26:09.460 That's interesting.

00:26:10.640 I was at, I was at Walmart.

00:26:12.620 I was like, I need a plant in my house.

00:26:14.160 I went to Walmart.

00:26:14.860 I'm like, I'm going to buy a plant.

00:26:16.640 And I went to the garden section.

00:26:17.980 I'm like, all right, that one's cool.

00:26:19.540 I like that one.

00:26:20.120 That one's cool.

00:26:20.780 And the lady was watering it. 0.99

00:26:22.000 I'm like, that's going to become me.

00:26:25.360 And am I, do I really want to water plants?

00:26:29.180 And I'm like, no, I don't.

00:26:30.380 I want to spend my time doing something else.

00:26:31.740 So I bought fake plants.

00:26:32.660 So I wouldn't need to take it to a, I wouldn't need to take it to a plant hotel, but it's

00:26:37.120 an interesting idea.

00:26:38.380 You know, the other thing that I like about what you're saying too is contrary to what

00:26:41.860 we see a lot is doing a side hustle while you're doing your other work.

00:26:47.360 It seems like so many Instagram influencers are like, burn the boats, go all in.

00:26:53.200 It's like, well, did you do that?

00:26:54.340 And they're like, oh, no, no, I didn't do that.

00:26:55.800 But you know, you should do that.

00:26:57.620 It's like, I think it's dangerous.

00:26:59.880 I didn't do that.

00:27:00.940 I had order of man as I was doing my financial planning practice.

00:27:04.020 And I didn't sell my practice until I was making decent money over here with order of

00:27:08.060 man stuff.

00:27:10.000 Yeah.

00:27:10.360 I mean, just put it to you this way.

00:27:12.480 My wife and I, we started our first business when we were both working full time and I

00:27:18.060 stayed at my job because I really liked it.

00:27:19.940 I was an engineering director working on microprocessors and I stayed at my job until 2016.

00:27:26.260 And at the end, when I finally quit, I was running two seven figure businesses, the event,

00:27:31.980 everything that I do.

00:27:32.960 And my kids were pretty young as well.

00:27:36.000 You can totally do it if you have the drive to do it.

00:27:40.600 And I, I, today I work 20 hours a week to maintain those businesses so that I can spend

00:27:47.320 most of my time, especially in the afternoons with my kids.

00:27:49.640 I don't know how old your kids are, Ryan, but I'm driving all afternoon these days, all

00:27:54.940 their activities.

00:27:55.720 That's like my job now.

00:27:57.480 So what, what sports do you, do you coach specifically?

00:28:00.740 I don't coach anymore because they're good now.

00:28:03.680 They're teenagers now.

00:28:04.840 So they are coaching.

00:28:06.440 Yeah, exactly.

00:28:08.000 Yeah.

00:28:08.200 So they play club volleyball right now.

00:28:10.520 And it's, you know, it's a traveling team.

00:28:12.460 Like this weekend, we're, we're all going to Reno and it's a three-day tournament.

00:28:15.980 They're actually going to miss school for that.

00:28:17.480 And that's just very demanding.

00:28:19.360 Yeah.

00:28:19.540 Yeah.

00:28:19.660 It's, it's better.

00:28:20.580 What they're doing is better than being in a classroom setting for those.

00:28:23.960 Oh yeah.

00:28:24.280 For sure.

00:28:24.480 Whatever it is.

00:28:25.160 Teamwork.

00:28:25.600 Yeah.

00:28:26.040 Yeah.

00:28:26.340 Yeah.

00:28:27.460 Yeah.

00:28:27.660 And hard work and dedication and how to win and how to lose and how to talk to people

00:28:31.020 and how to communicate effectively.

00:28:32.140 I mean, you can't, you cannot replace what happens on the, on the volleyball court or

00:28:36.280 in our case, the baseball diamond or football field.

00:28:39.160 But yeah, I, I, uh, I feel it when you say they've outgrown my coaching.

00:28:43.940 Cause my oldest, he's 14.

00:28:45.480 Uh, no, he just turned 15.

00:28:47.360 I can't coach him anymore.

00:28:48.620 Like he has far exceeded my ability to coach him, but my seven-year-old.

00:28:52.900 Yeah.

00:28:53.060 I can coach him all day long.

00:28:54.160 In fact, we've got a game tonight, baseball game.

00:28:55.700 It's like hurting cats.

00:28:56.800 I can definitely do that.

00:28:59.820 Nice.

00:29:00.260 Yeah.

00:29:00.360 I was coaching volleyball and basketball and it was a lot of fun.

00:29:04.460 I dropped these plays.

00:29:05.680 They would never follow them, but every now and then once per game, they would follow

00:29:09.080 the play and it would work exactly as planned.

00:29:11.760 And it was the best feeling ever.

00:29:14.000 It's so rewarding.

00:29:15.220 Yeah.

00:29:15.620 Do you ever feel like this is something that I run across?

00:29:18.700 Um, and I've talked with other entrepreneurs who happen to be fathers as well.

00:29:22.100 And this is something they run across.

00:29:24.240 Do you ever feel like you're not being productive when you're with your family?

00:29:28.420 I know that's a horrible thing to say, but if I'm being honest, like there's times where

00:29:33.060 I'm like, I don't want to just sit here and like hang out in the backyard or at the park.

00:29:37.360 Like I'm not being productive.

00:29:38.800 How do you address that?

00:29:40.260 If that's an issue for you?

00:29:42.460 Yeah.

00:29:42.540 So the way I schedule things is I literally work from when I wake up until noon and in

00:29:48.620 the afternoon, I don't do anything except just kind of be around.

00:29:52.620 Like we're not always hanging out with the kids, but I'm around.

00:29:55.820 So my productivity actually wanes in the afternoon anyways.

00:29:59.660 Like I'm much more productive in the mornings.

00:30:02.060 So I never feel like I'm unproductive.

00:30:05.060 Um, sometimes I feel like if there's a fire that comes up though, in the afternoon, I do

00:30:10.360 get distracted, but what I try not to do is check my phone.

00:30:15.860 If that makes sense.

00:30:17.520 Yes, it does.

00:30:18.920 I don't know how you do that, but it makes sense.

00:30:21.340 Well, usually I'm doing so.

00:30:22.960 Like if I'm doing something with them, I don't have my phone out obviously.

00:30:26.260 And we just have some policies like no phone at the dinner table and that sort of thing

00:30:30.360 too.

00:30:30.640 But you're right.

00:30:31.360 It's, it's tough.

00:30:32.620 It's, it's very tough.

00:30:34.360 And for me, it's always been about ego because I want to be the best at what I do.

00:30:41.740 And I want to always strive to be just like my peers, my masterminds and that sort of thing.

00:30:48.420 The way I've just overcome that is what I do now is every single year I focus on one thing

00:30:55.620 and whatever happens, happens.

00:30:58.120 So for example, this year, it's all about the book.

00:31:01.140 Last year, it was all about the YouTube channel and I grew it to 200 K subs.

00:31:04.980 The year before that was about Tik TOK. 0.70

00:31:06.900 So every year I just pick one thing and I do it well and I don't stress out about it.

00:31:12.740 And as long as I'm learning something that has managed to satisfy my ego now for the last

00:31:18.840 decade or so.

00:31:21.940 Hey man, let me step away from the conversation with Steve very briefly.

00:31:24.540 I know you're interested.

00:31:25.620 We'll get right back to it.

00:31:26.620 Now you've all heard the phrase, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

00:31:30.720 I think it was Mike Tyson, maybe who was credited with that, but I agree.

00:31:34.860 I agree.

00:31:35.840 But what about those who don't have a plan at all?

00:31:39.280 Do they get punched?

00:31:41.120 So to speak in the face more often yet?

00:31:43.920 Yes.

00:31:44.660 The answer is yes.

00:31:45.920 So if you're tired of getting punched in the face every single year, or if you're tired

00:31:51.020 of running on the proverbial treadmill, let me help you make a plan.

00:31:54.540 Okay.

00:31:54.900 It's called the 12 week battle planner.

00:31:56.740 And it's a tool that we've designed over eight years of trial and error and testing

00:32:01.020 and tweaking and adjusting and evolving to help you produce maximum results in your life

00:32:06.160 and to deflect and slip and counter the punches of life that come your way.

00:32:12.080 If you're interested in learning more, head to order a man.com slash TWBP as in 12 week

00:32:17.880 battle planner, TWBP to pick up that battle planner.

00:32:21.340 And then also a supplement to that is order a man.com slash battle ready order a man.com

00:32:26.960 slash battle ready, because you're going to be able to sign up for a free course on how

00:32:30.360 to maximize that battle planner.

00:32:32.460 So again, order a man.com slash TWBP and then order a man.com slash battle ready.

00:32:39.480 All right, guys, you can do that right after the conversation for now.

00:32:42.740 Let's get back to it with Steve.

00:32:43.660 It's interesting when you talk about the focusing on the one thing, because as entrepreneurs,

00:32:49.880 we want to be good at it all.

00:32:51.560 And we see different outlets and different avenues.

00:32:54.080 It's like, okay, great.

00:32:54.960 I'm good on YouTube, but what about TikTok?

00:32:57.180 Okay, I'm great on TikTok, but what about Instagram marketing and good on Instagram?

00:33:00.960 What about live events?

00:33:01.980 And so how do you keep yourself from losing focus on all of the other things that you could

00:33:06.800 focus on and just focus on the one thing you found valuable or that you want to focus

00:33:10.560 on for the year?

00:33:11.120 Yeah, the way I kind of operate is I don't actually start anything unless I can fill it,

00:33:17.560 unless I have a space for it in my schedule in such a way that I can maintain it forever.

00:33:22.680 So for example, the YouTube channel, I hesitated on starting that channel for the longest time

00:33:28.320 because video is probably one of the hardest things to do, right?

00:33:32.380 You got to get your camera set up, you got to record, you got to get it edited and that

00:33:36.620 sort of thing.

00:33:37.880 So I didn't start my channel.

00:33:39.160 I wanted to start one for five years.

00:33:40.720 I didn't start one until relatively recently, until I had a system for it.

00:33:45.680 So I started out by editing one video myself.

00:33:49.200 I recorded myself editing it.

00:33:51.220 And then I found an editor who could replicate what I did.

00:33:54.440 And it was only after I had all those pieces in place, did I actually start a YouTube channel.

00:33:58.980 And today I have all those processes down so that it literally only takes me 20 minutes

00:34:04.440 to record the video.

00:34:05.540 I throw it overboard to my editor and it pops up on YouTube.

00:34:09.160 And so the channel now just doesn't really take me that much time out of my week.

00:34:14.060 I do that with everything that I do.

00:34:17.100 It needs to have a slot in the calendar.

00:34:18.860 That makes sense.

00:34:20.740 How do you know when it's time to delegate?

00:34:22.780 Because you and I at the stage we're at in currently have the luxury of bringing support

00:34:28.160 on to help with editing, to help with uploading.

00:34:31.160 Like I haven't edited my own podcast for seven years, but as people are getting started, you

00:34:36.720 got to do it all.

00:34:37.380 You got to take the trash out.

00:34:38.600 You got to edit podcasts.

00:34:39.740 You got to upload.

00:34:40.680 You got to respond to people on social media and emails.

00:34:44.220 When is the right time for people to start outsourcing some of this so that they can

00:34:48.500 focus on what they love?

00:34:50.860 Like me is podcasting.

00:34:52.320 So I don't really want to do much more than that.

00:34:55.440 Yeah.

00:34:55.540 What's funny, Ryan, is I'm actually anti-employee in a way because I used to be a director of

00:35:01.840 engineering and my employees were awesome at that work.

00:35:04.940 But what I found is I was spending a lot of my time dealing with personality issues and

00:35:09.360 personal issues.

00:35:10.120 And it's just kind of like a different type of work, you know, than doing yourself.

00:35:14.300 So when I outsource, what I first do is I find out if there's a piece of software or

00:35:20.300 something I can code up myself.

00:35:21.580 So I'm an engineer, so I can code myself, see if I can replace that with a robot.

00:35:25.280 And we're living in a golden age right now with chat GPT and AI where you can literally

00:35:30.260 replace a lot of your jobs with a computer.

00:35:33.020 I didn't have that back then, but that's the first thing that I do.

00:35:36.080 And I've managed to replace a lot of aspects of my business with software and automation.

00:35:41.520 Now, if I can't replace that with a robot or software, then I look at things that I hate

00:35:48.100 doing first.

00:35:49.580 I hate editing my podcast.

00:35:51.640 I hate editing video.

00:35:53.200 I know how to do it, but I'd rather not do it.

00:35:55.880 Those are the first things I outsource.

00:35:57.220 I never outsource anything that I do not know how to do myself.

00:36:03.080 That's always been my policy.

00:36:05.000 And I generally don't choose to outsource until it's become just so painful that I just

00:36:10.880 don't want to do it anymore.

00:36:12.600 I'm curious.

00:36:13.320 What is your philosophy, Ryan?

00:36:15.280 Yeah.

00:36:15.920 Again, my philosophy has changed just because I'm in a position where I can afford to outsource.

00:36:21.260 There was a time when I couldn't.

00:36:22.640 But I'm very much in alignment with you.

00:36:24.660 If I was drained by the work, it was crucial that I get rid of that as quickly as possible.

00:36:30.540 That doesn't mean I don't enjoy the entirety, the breadth of what we do.

00:36:34.000 It just means I don't like that element of it.

00:36:36.140 So bring somebody else in.

00:36:39.840 Yes.

00:36:40.440 I think you're dead on.

00:36:42.420 As far as all of the things that are outsourced now, I used to manage myself.

00:36:46.720 And to your point about knowing how to do it, I know how to do it.

00:36:49.300 I could do it.

00:36:49.980 In fact, I just coached somebody last week with regards to editing a podcast.

00:36:53.880 And I haven't edited a podcast for five to seven years.

00:36:56.300 And I was able to share with them because I cut my teeth doing it.

00:36:59.400 I know how it's done, except for some new technology that's available.

00:37:03.740 But I think you and I are very much in alignment with that is get it outsourced.

00:37:08.600 But I do like the idea of automation, robots, computer technology, AI to take on and do some

00:37:16.540 of the heavy lifting that we don't want to do ourselves.

00:37:18.460 That's a relatively new development, which I'm excited about.

00:37:22.480 Here's the beauty of outsourcing also, is that I mainly use employees or workers in the

00:37:28.960 Philippines and they speak perfect English.

00:37:31.840 The culture is such that my one Filipino VA that literally helps me run all of my wife

00:37:37.820 put her job, is the best employee that I've ever had.

00:37:40.560 She has the best attitude.

00:37:42.280 And we've had other Filipino employees also.

00:37:45.020 There's just this cultural difference that I found.

00:37:47.620 I don't know if you have found this too, but between the people that we've hired in the U.S.

00:37:51.160 and people we've hired in the Philippines, the people in the Philippines, and we're generalizing

00:37:56.120 here, but they want to do a really good, they'll go out of their way to do an exceptional

00:38:00.640 job.

00:38:01.560 And I just haven't had the same luck with U.S.

00:38:04.020 employees.

00:38:04.340 I personally haven't had that experience, first, because I haven't outsourced overseas

00:38:11.080 for work like that at all.

00:38:13.140 So I don't know.

00:38:15.140 But the people that work with us are tremendous.

00:38:18.860 They're incredible.

00:38:20.420 But I think the reason is, is they aren't random people.

00:38:24.040 These are people that came up through our organizations, through our masterminds, through our coaching,

00:38:29.860 coming to events, and then we got to know and develop relationships with each other.

00:38:34.860 And then I could see, oh, this person's good at this, and this person's good at that.

00:38:37.980 And I can invite them to be part of the organization based on what their strengths were.

00:38:43.400 They're already bought into what we're doing.

00:38:45.200 They believe wholeheartedly.

00:38:46.240 So it isn't like, hey, I need to pluck out this assistant from wherever and plop them into this culture 1.00

00:38:51.700 that we have.

00:38:52.280 They're already bought into the culture that we have.

00:38:55.740 So I haven't had that experience.

00:38:58.320 Yeah.

00:38:58.460 You're doing things right then, Ryan.

00:39:00.920 Some things.

00:39:03.100 What I like about the Philippines is that the cost of living is much lower there.

00:39:07.680 And so their expected wages are less.

00:39:09.840 So if you just pay them really well for where they live, which is not a lot of money to you and me,

00:39:16.280 then you end up getting these fantastic people that are loyal.

00:39:19.440 Like I've had the same VA for seven years now.

00:39:23.260 Oh, is that right?

00:39:24.120 Yeah.

00:39:24.840 Wow.

00:39:26.000 I want to go back to what you were saying with your friend where you were talking about brainstorming

00:39:29.960 and you talked about the plant hotel, for example.

00:39:32.640 How does a person who's brainstorming on what they should be doing first is, is that,

00:39:37.980 do you recommend that or does that just create chasing trends and chasing things that maybe aren't

00:39:45.200 really meaningful and significant and they're just chasing what could make money?

00:39:49.700 So that's a hangup I see there.

00:39:51.400 And then also, how do you begin to filter out, hey, the plant hotel, good idea.

00:39:57.080 The, you know, the lawn mowing service, bad idea.

00:40:00.520 Like, how do you, how do you filter that out between what you should approach and go for

00:40:06.200 and maybe not tackle at all?

00:40:08.500 Well, so what I advise most people do is pursue something that they're knowledgeable about.

00:40:17.020 Right.

00:40:17.600 And so that keeps you from jumping on trends.

00:40:20.040 You're basically doing something that you know a lot about.

00:40:22.400 So in the case of plants, that's probably not a good idea.

00:40:26.320 Let me give you an example.

00:40:28.440 Right now I play ultimate Frisbee once or twice a week.

00:40:31.580 And sometimes I like to play at night.

00:40:33.900 So I know the sport really well and I've, I've been playing it for the last 25 years.

00:40:38.180 Now my hands get cold at night and I'd been looking for a set of gloves to keep my hands

00:40:43.720 warm so they don't go numb, but the gloves that are out there on the market right now

00:40:48.080 are just too thick.

00:40:48.960 Like I tried goalie gloves.

00:40:50.800 They're just a little bit too thick and you lose feel of the disc.

00:40:53.360 So if I were to start another business, I might sell ultimate Frisbee gloves, super thin gloves

00:40:58.640 where you can maintain the feel of the disc and still keep your hands warm.

00:41:01.680 That's an example where I have knowledge of, I know like what someone is looking for in that product.

00:41:07.240 Do you mostly do, I mean, your background is e-commerce and you're talking about it now,

00:41:11.480 another e-commerce product.

00:41:13.020 Is that mostly what you would focus on versus we're, we're not e-commerce.

00:41:17.820 Of course, I mean, we have some merchandise as an ancillary to what we do, but we're more

00:41:20.900 service and coaching oriented than, than product-based.

00:41:25.680 Yeah.

00:41:25.920 It doesn't have to be e-commerce.

00:41:27.560 It can be coaching.

00:41:28.460 So my background is e-commerce.

00:41:31.580 So, you know, I teach e-commerce.

00:41:34.680 Well, let me think of another example here.

00:41:37.140 Before this all started, I was pretty good at Photoshop, right?

00:41:40.800 And so if I'm good at Photoshop, I might think to myself, Hey, can I leverage these skills

00:41:46.360 maybe to teach a class or offer some sort of service with Photoshop?

00:41:50.820 And I know for a fact that in e-commerce, let's say I wasn't doing e-commerce myself,

00:41:55.340 but I know for a fact that people need their images on a white background in order to list

00:42:00.420 them on Amazon.

00:42:01.540 So maybe I would just target those Amazon folks, right?

00:42:04.400 With my Photoshop skills.

00:42:05.440 Maybe I would teach a class.

00:42:06.600 Maybe I'd offer a service and just go from there.

00:42:08.900 It doesn't always have to be a physical product.

00:42:10.500 But I would say between what we do, Ryan, like if you, it just kind of depends on what

00:42:15.280 your timeframe is for making money.

00:42:17.360 So if you want to make money within a year, I would say selling something, whether it be

00:42:21.820 a service or a product is probably the way to go.

00:42:24.500 If you have a longer horizon, I would say two to three years or longer, then I would say

00:42:29.280 content is probably the best way to go because you don't have to physically deliver something.

00:42:33.620 Like my class makes me a lot of money and I don't have to ship anything.

00:42:38.380 It's just a repository of videos.

00:42:40.400 And then I go on camera live also.

00:42:43.060 Same goes with the podcast that I run.

00:42:45.640 Sponsorship money comes in.

00:42:46.820 So it really just depends on your timeframe and how soon you need the money and the type

00:42:50.540 of business that you want to run.

00:42:52.220 I think that's a good take with what we did.

00:42:54.740 I remember when I started, I was sitting down with a friend, Ever Gonzalez, and I was talking

00:42:59.120 about this idea and I've had other friends who I've consulted with.

00:43:03.620 Even before we got started.

00:43:05.500 And I remember saying to Ever, I'm going to do this for two years before I make the decision

00:43:11.720 as to whether or not I keep going or I stop or I throw in the towel or I pivot or I change.

00:43:16.460 I'm doing it for two.

00:43:17.660 I'm in a hundred percent for two years.

00:43:21.200 And I think that speaks to what you were saying is that if you're going to do more of a service

00:43:25.460 or content-based product or business, you got to give it some time to develop and mature

00:43:31.760 and grow.

00:43:32.240 It doesn't happen overnight.

00:43:33.080 Some people see it.

00:43:34.060 They're like, oh, well, all you do is a podcast and talk with people on social media.

00:43:37.500 Well, it's a little bit more challenging than that.

00:43:41.460 And people usually don't see it until they get involved themselves.

00:43:44.600 Yeah.

00:43:44.880 And I just speaking for experience, I didn't make any money with my blog until two years.

00:43:49.820 And it didn't make significant money until three.

00:43:52.980 Likewise with my YouTube channel, it was making barely anything, but now it makes almost 300K,

00:43:59.220 just an AdSense alone after three years.

00:44:01.420 For me, three years just seems to be the sweet spot for content.

00:44:05.400 Yeah.

00:44:06.020 Yeah.

00:44:06.800 Well, going back to the concept of your latest book, which is Family First Entrepreneur,

00:44:10.960 I'm really curious about what type of boundaries that you have in place between work and your

00:44:18.780 home life, or is it all integrated and your kids and wife are deeply involved in your business?

00:44:22.900 Is it separated?

00:44:23.620 What are those boundaries and separation look like for you?

00:44:27.680 Yeah.

00:44:27.820 So my wife is my business partner on the e-commerce store.

00:44:31.020 For the content side, anything related to mywifequitterjob.com is me and only me.

00:44:36.140 So the boundaries with my wife and I are that she's in charge of operations at the e-commerce

00:44:41.040 store and I'm in charge of marketing.

00:44:43.220 We don't overlap.

00:44:44.640 We made the mistake of overlapping early on and we used to fight all the time.

00:44:48.160 But now that we have separate boundaries, it's been really good.

00:44:50.520 Marriage is hard enough.

00:44:51.480 And then you have a business and it's like one other thing.

00:44:54.900 Exactly.

00:44:55.500 That's why I always advise that people don't work with their spouses actually in a business.

00:45:01.840 We made it work, but it took many years to get to that point.

00:45:06.200 Yeah.

00:45:07.040 In terms of the kids, I just try to make every single event and we just try to make meals

00:45:13.540 together if possible.

00:45:15.220 I have an agreement that I made with my wife because I have opportunities to speak at events

00:45:22.620 and that sort of thing.

00:45:23.800 I don't speak at more than six events every single year.

00:45:26.920 And we have this kind of like this, I don't want to call it a checklist, but it's kind of

00:45:31.280 like this little document where if an opportunity were to arise, we calculate whether that's actually

00:45:39.260 worth missing some of these events or not.

00:45:41.860 And we figure out what the monetary value of that opportunity would be and then ask ourselves,

00:45:47.840 is that monetary value or whatever worth missing out on these sort of events?

00:45:53.720 How do you talk it through?

00:45:54.900 There's so much nuance to that because how do you say, oh, this kid's volleyball game

00:46:01.020 is worth $20,000?

00:46:03.820 What's the nuance behind that?

00:46:06.420 So the nuance now is we're in a good place where money doesn't matter as much because we

00:46:12.060 don't spend that.

00:46:12.780 We're so frugal.

00:46:13.760 We don't spend that much money as a family.

00:46:16.440 And what we do is we just pay ourselves what we spend every year and everything else that

00:46:20.600 we make is gravy.

00:46:21.960 So it would be very hard to entice me with money.

00:46:24.900 In an opportunity, right?

00:46:27.340 What would entice me more is maybe exposure, the ability to reach out to more people, right?

00:46:33.480 Potentially help more people.

00:46:35.080 That's more appealing.

00:46:36.020 And it's really hard to quantify, but I think it's important to just have this talk.

00:46:40.740 A lot of times, what I used to do when we first started out is I just said yes to everything.

00:46:46.520 And then I'd go up to my wife and say, hey, by the way, I'm traveling here and there.

00:46:51.060 And it wasn't a discussion.

00:46:52.560 Now everything's a discussion and it's worked out well.

00:46:55.960 Yeah.

00:46:56.080 I mean, with that nuance, it sounds like, because there are, how would we ever address,

00:47:00.580 especially in an hour of conversation, address all the nuance and complexities of having

00:47:05.620 these types of conversations with important people.

00:47:07.680 But I think the point you're making, and this is the value is that you and your wife are

00:47:12.840 intentional about it and you are willing to talk with each other about it and include each

00:47:19.480 other in the thought process and include each other's feelings in it.

00:47:23.560 I imagine as well about, about the opportunity or about the game.

00:47:28.020 And I think the intentionality is what, what matters more than anything else.

00:47:32.700 And one thing that you left out is we'll actually talk to the kids too.

00:47:36.560 I was like, Hey, you know, I go to all your games and how would you feel if I miss this game?

00:47:44.400 Like, what would it be devastating to you?

00:47:47.260 Or do you really need me there?

00:47:48.600 If you do, you know, I'll just drop it.

00:47:53.380 Do you think, do you think your kids can give you an honest answer to that though?

00:47:56.980 Cause I question whether or not, because, because from, from where I sit, I imagine,

00:48:01.960 and I've seen this is like, no dad, it's okay.

00:48:03.860 I know it works important, but deep down in their little, their little tiny souls,

00:48:07.880 their, their wish and dad was there at the game and they feel like maybe they weren't

00:48:13.220 as important as the other opportunity.

00:48:15.400 I think it just depends on, you know, your relationship with your kids and how old they

00:48:20.440 are.

00:48:21.040 My kids are teenagers now, so they kind of speak their mind.

00:48:25.140 Yeah.

00:48:25.540 Yeah.

00:48:25.840 That's when you don't want them to.

00:48:27.660 And then when you do want them to open up, they don't.

00:48:30.060 So they, they get it completely backwards.

00:48:32.620 Oh, when, when they were younger.

00:48:34.220 Yeah.

00:48:34.960 You're, you're totally right.

00:48:36.060 I mean, they might not say anything.

00:48:37.880 Uh, so, I mean, again, one of my policies is I try not to miss anything.

00:48:44.540 Uh, sometimes things come up, but I've, I've been pretty good.

00:48:47.380 I would say I make 99% of the things that my kids are involved in.

00:48:51.420 Yeah.

00:48:52.340 And then are they involved or the kids involved in your day-to-day operations?

00:48:55.840 Uh, do you, do you have things for them to be part of with regards to your organizations

00:49:00.260 that they can learn from?

00:49:01.160 I know they're doing their own thing.

00:49:02.140 Cause you talked about that, but are they involved in what you're doing too?

00:49:05.580 Yeah.

00:49:05.760 So over the holidays, when the e-commerce business gets busy, they come in and help.

00:49:10.720 Um, my daughter actually is working on, so she has two, two, uh, businesses herself.

00:49:16.080 She has that t-shirt business that we talked about earlier, and she actually started her 0.99

00:49:20.020 own handmade jewelry business as well.

00:49:22.540 Um, what she's working on now, actually what both kids are working on right now is a class

00:49:27.360 that's meant for teenagers to start their own businesses.

00:49:31.920 And they're going to tailor it towards print on demand, which is a business that you don't

00:49:36.740 really need that much money to start with.

00:49:38.560 It all just depends on your creativity.

00:49:40.480 In case anyone listening doesn't know what that is.

00:49:42.660 It's basically where you design something.

00:49:44.680 And then there's a company that takes your design and prints it on t-shirts, mugs, and

00:49:49.200 whatnot, and ships it to the customer.

00:49:51.600 So you never have to touch the inventory.

00:49:54.500 Yeah.

00:49:54.520 That's nice.

00:49:54.860 Cause that's a low capital type business, right?

00:49:56.780 I see a lot of guys that want to start things and it's capital intensive.

00:49:59.720 It's like, man, how are you going to come up with $200,000?

00:50:01.920 And what is that going to mean in a loan?

00:50:03.840 Or, you know, what's your payback strategy on that?

00:50:06.200 Or what are you taking away from the, from the family if you do that?

00:50:09.520 But we live in such an awesome time.

00:50:11.780 I think people sometimes complain about these things that, you know, certainly there's things

00:50:16.420 to complain about, but also tremendous opportunities with regards to AI, like we were talking about

00:50:21.620 earlier, and just using the internet to keep costs low so that we can enter into things

00:50:26.620 that we never would have thought possible 50 years ago.

00:50:30.800 Totally.

00:50:30.860 I mean, look, when we grew up, we didn't have, like, I was telling my kids about cassette

00:50:35.720 tapes the other day and like, cause they were complaining, like they were complaining that

00:50:41.940 they couldn't get the song that they wanted to play on Pandora.

00:50:44.880 And that's when I started going off on, you know, tapes and, and I wanted to hear a song

00:50:49.600 I had to record it on the radio.

00:50:51.300 So I will say that, that, that is one of, I think the greatest contributors for the decline

00:50:56.540 in, in modern music is when we were kids, we had to listen to the entire tape.

00:51:02.400 It wasn't, I mean, yes, you could fast forward, but it wasn't easy.

00:51:06.080 And so the whole album better be good. 0.99

00:51:07.880 And now you can just come up with one stupid, catchy song. 1.00

00:51:12.840 That's been done three dozen times already. 1.00

00:51:15.520 And everybody can just download that one song for 99 cents.

00:51:19.360 And there you go.

00:51:20.020 And you don't need to make any other good music.

00:51:21.900 And now you have your little place in history.

00:51:23.760 I'm really terrified of AI because I know for a fact that a lot of people are just pumping

00:51:28.660 out chat GPT books on Amazon right now, or blogs or websites.

00:51:35.040 And so it's basically going to be the year of spam this year, I feel.

00:51:39.260 Yeah.

00:51:39.380 I wonder what the line is there because even as this chat GPT and other programs have come

00:51:44.000 available, I'm like, man, I could just have it.

00:51:46.640 In fact, one of the first things I did, I'm like, let me check this out.

00:51:49.240 I said, write a, a, an article with eight fitness tips for men.

00:51:55.780 And it was a 1500 word article.

00:51:59.020 Seven years ago, that was an article that I had to write myself and then pitch it to guys

00:52:03.660 like you or other people that would maybe hopefully put it on their, their blog or their channels.

00:52:09.480 And it spit it out in just a matter of seconds.

00:52:11.940 It wasn't great, but it was solid.

00:52:16.140 It was all pretty good.

00:52:18.160 I hear you.

00:52:18.540 I hear you.

00:52:19.480 And in fact, there was a post that I published not too long ago that was written maybe 85%

00:52:26.280 based on chat GPT.

00:52:28.300 And it's now ranking on the front page of Google and generating me traffic.

00:52:32.800 So the question now is, do I need as many writers as I have, or can I just get by with

00:52:40.100 just an editor and a robot?

00:52:43.260 What is the, I mean, obviously we know what the benefit of that is.

00:52:46.420 It saves time.

00:52:47.680 It saves money.

00:52:48.580 It helps promote visibility.

00:52:50.500 Obviously you're getting rankings on, on search browsers for that.

00:52:53.600 So we know what the benefit is.

00:52:55.500 What do you feel like, where, where is the moral conundrum?

00:52:58.280 Cause it's to, when I hear you say that you're like, I don't know.

00:53:01.260 So what is the downside that you see and what are your concerns there?

00:53:05.780 I would say the downsides are some of these writers I've worked for, worked with for a

00:53:11.840 long time.

00:53:12.560 And so I don't know.

00:53:14.820 I just worry about society because I think AI is, is just going to cause a lot of jobs

00:53:21.520 to be lost.

00:53:22.120 And those people who've had their jobs displaced need a way to make money and adapt.

00:53:28.360 Otherwise you can't have such a huge disparity between people who have money and people who

00:53:32.440 don't, it just doesn't work in the long run.

00:53:34.840 But, but I mean, yeah, yeah, you're not wrong.

00:53:39.960 It will definitely put people out of work, but this is an age old story.

00:53:45.260 You know, it's, it's, it, this isn't anything new and the technology's new, but what we're

00:53:50.220 bumping up against where there's new developments in technology and processes and systems and

00:53:55.520 commerce have been putting people out of work for centuries.

00:53:59.120 And we've found a way to adapt and focus on something different than maybe what we used

00:54:05.300 to before.

00:54:07.220 I agree with you.

00:54:07.980 It's been like that for a long time.

00:54:10.460 This just feels different to me mainly because this is the first time that I think white collar

00:54:16.900 jobs are going to get displaced like software engineers, uh, writers, lawyers, even some

00:54:24.040 doctors, they're going to get displaced.

00:54:26.460 I think it's the first time in history that that's happened.

00:54:29.640 Accountants.

00:54:30.200 I'm doing my taxes right now.

00:54:31.820 I'm like, that would be awesome.

00:54:33.140 Like find every loophole AI, go out and do your work.

00:54:36.500 Find me every tax loophole.

00:54:38.240 Find me every tax code, squeeze this for everything that it's worth.

00:54:42.860 And I got to tell you, that's pretty enticing.

00:54:47.960 Yeah.

00:54:48.480 And that's why I'm a little worried, but you know, people will adapt.

00:54:51.580 We're all going to adapt.

00:54:52.660 I think people like you and me will, will adapt to the times.

00:54:56.100 In fact, uh, one thing that I'm kind of working on on the side right now is I have this class

00:55:00.520 with over 450 videos and 150 hours of material.

00:55:04.720 I'm going to transcribe all that, feed it into a bot and create Steve bot.

00:55:09.060 So if any students have any questions, they would just first line of defense is ask the

00:55:13.740 bot, right?

00:55:14.520 Yeah.

00:55:14.740 It's all my teachings.

00:55:16.580 And then if I need to step in, I'll, you know, that'll greatly cut down the support for me.

00:55:21.580 Yeah.

00:55:21.900 That's amazing.

00:55:22.840 That's such a great idea.

00:55:24.120 There's so many great applications of it.

00:55:25.940 I guess it, to me, as I hear you talk about this and the things that I've thought, I think

00:55:30.040 it just reaffirms your message of creating a side hustle because we need to understand

00:55:35.660 we're all replaceable.

00:55:37.180 And the minute that your boss or your client can find a more effective, less expensive

00:55:44.860 way of getting your service or product, they're going to take that route.

00:55:50.040 And I don't hold any ill will against somebody for doing it.

00:55:52.420 I would do that.

00:55:54.040 So creating a side hustle like you're talking about, I think it's more important maybe than

00:55:58.960 it's ever been for that very reason.

00:56:01.020 We're all very, very replaceable.

00:56:04.640 This message comes at a good time too.

00:56:06.360 At least in my area in Silicon Valley, mass layoffs at all the high tech companies, Google,

00:56:11.620 Facebook, Amazon, a lot of people are out of jobs.

00:56:15.580 And, you know, for them, I had a friend who got laid off and it's terrifying for them because

00:56:21.060 they don't have that thing that they can call their own that just kind of makes money on

00:56:24.180 the side.

00:56:25.040 And a lot of times you can experiment with multiple side hustles, see what works, but I

00:56:30.480 would follow your policy, Ryan, whatever you choose, stick with it for at least two years

00:56:35.180 and follow through with it.

00:56:36.740 And who knows, it might turn into something big.

00:56:38.560 I never thought in a million years that selling handkerchiefs would lead to a seven figure

00:56:42.420 business.

00:56:43.060 No way.

00:56:43.680 Our goal was $60,000 a year.

00:56:45.940 That was our goal.

00:56:47.000 But we exceeded that in the first year.

00:56:48.760 Sometimes you surprise yourself.

00:56:50.580 Yeah, it's amazing.

00:56:51.240 I've got a friend.

00:56:52.840 I think I alluded to him earlier.

00:56:53.980 He's, he's, uh, on the police force here in town and I talked to him just yesterday.

00:56:59.420 And the reason I called him up is because I, I hunt quite a bit.

00:57:02.260 And so I had to take some skulls to him to get cleaned up and to get, you know, done so

00:57:07.280 I can mount them and they'll look really nice on the wall.

00:57:09.700 And, uh, I went over to his place yesterday, which happens to be in his garage and he's got

00:57:14.680 a hundred different heads and skulls and mounts and horns and antlers that he's working on.

00:57:22.220 And he's the gentleman I was saying that that is a retiring in a couple of years.

00:57:26.220 And he's been doing this for at least five years and to see his business grow.

00:57:31.740 And then he had two guys there working with him.

00:57:34.760 So they were clean.

00:57:35.820 He was in there talking with me and they were out cleaning skulls and doing things.

00:57:38.780 I'm like, man, this guy has it figured out.

00:57:41.360 He's got a side hustle.

00:57:42.640 He's still on the police force.

00:57:43.940 He's got his retirement.

00:57:45.280 That's going to be coming in, in two years.

00:57:46.760 He's got a good steady income.

00:57:47.940 He does meaningful work and he has this side business over here.

00:57:51.600 That business is not going to be replaced by AI anytime soon.

00:57:55.120 Maybe, maybe robots in the future or something, but not, not yet.

00:57:59.320 So he's good there.

00:58:00.420 It's just a great way to inoculate himself against some other economic forces at play.

00:58:08.140 Here's a funny story, Ryan.

00:58:10.420 I think the side hustle can also boost your confidence at work.

00:58:13.940 I was still working until 2016 and my businesses were making like 10x what I was making and

00:58:18.880 I got cocky.

00:58:19.680 So I'd go into these meetings where my boss would be presenting.

00:58:23.720 And before I used to just kind of keep quiet in the background, kind of like the way I was

00:58:27.080 raised.

00:58:27.940 But once I didn't care anymore, I just started speaking my mind.

00:58:31.480 I'd say stuff like, Hey, I don't think that's a good idea.

00:58:33.300 I don't think it's going to work.

00:58:34.280 And I remember my coworkers were like, Hey, you realize that your boss up there, you know,

00:58:38.800 you shouldn't like say anything bad while he's up there.

00:58:42.340 But I was like, Hey, I don't care.

00:58:43.720 So I said, I spoke my mind.

00:58:45.280 And what ended up happening was I got promoted.

00:58:47.700 I wasn't getting promoted before that, but all of a sudden I was getting promoted for

00:58:51.160 speaking my mind.

00:58:52.740 Interesting.

00:58:53.100 And it was just something that I learned, like you got to just be yourself and don't

00:58:58.840 be afraid to speak up and good things just always happen was what I learned from that.

00:59:05.200 I think there's some, some energy there too, right?

00:59:07.480 When you've got other revenue sources and, and other income, and like you say, your confidence

00:59:14.340 that that's going to come across to people.

00:59:16.800 And then it gives you the power to actually say things, which is the very thing that you

00:59:21.200 should have been doing all along, but you couldn't because you were afraid and there

00:59:25.060 was risk associated with it.

00:59:26.720 And now the risk is diminished.

00:59:27.760 So you can say things and the energy is what's presented and people are attracted to that

00:59:32.900 energy.

00:59:34.620 Another side benefit of having a side hustle, right?

00:59:37.000 Definitely.

00:59:37.740 Definitely.

00:59:38.840 Well, Steve, why don't you tell the guys where to connect with you?

00:59:42.400 I know I get messages all the time about guys wanting to start side businesses.

00:59:47.000 They don't know what to do, how to do it.

00:59:49.460 I'm pretty intuitive guy.

00:59:50.680 I'm like, I don't know, just start, but you're somebody who's spent a lot of time

00:59:54.980 focused on this.

00:59:55.920 So if guys have ideas about starting side businesses, they're going to get better advice

01:00:00.740 from you than, I don't know, just start, which is what I would give them.

01:00:03.500 So tell them where to go.

01:00:04.320 And then also to pick up a copy of the book.

01:00:06.880 Yeah.

01:00:07.000 I think the best place to start actually is to pre-order the family first entrepreneur,

01:00:11.480 which you can do at the family first entrepreneur.com.

01:00:14.300 And the reason why is because not just because of the book, but because I'm giving away these

01:00:18.620 awesome bonuses.

01:00:20.000 So you will get a three-day workshop on how to start a print on demand business.

01:00:24.360 You also get a two-day workshop on how to get started with a content business, whether

01:00:28.660 that be blogging, podcasting, or YouTube.

01:00:31.240 And then I'm doing this six week, what I call a family first challenge, where I will be in

01:00:36.560 there in a Facebook group with you guys live and just kind of help you figure out what

01:00:41.160 you want to start and walk you through the first steps, regardless of what you want to

01:00:45.440 start.

01:00:46.740 And you get all this stuff just for pre-ordering a $30 book.

01:00:51.580 If you guys are interested in e-commerce, you can catch me over at mywifequitterjob.com.

01:00:55.800 I have a free six-day mini course there as well.

01:00:57.880 And if you guys ever want to hang out in person, you can go to the Seller Summit.

01:01:02.320 The next Seller Summit is May 23rd.

01:01:05.020 And oh, I forgot.

01:01:05.940 If you guys are getting married, I can hook you guys up with some hankies over at bumblebelinens.com.

01:01:11.200 Awesome.

01:01:12.100 Thanks, Steve.

01:01:12.700 I appreciate you, brother.

01:01:13.480 It's been good to follow up with you.

01:01:14.720 It's been good to connect.

01:01:15.740 And of course, what you do is inspiring and it's helped motivate me too.

01:01:19.220 So really appreciate your time, man.

01:01:21.060 Dude, thanks for having me, Ryan.

01:01:23.700 All right, gentlemen, there you go.

01:01:24.880 The conversation with the one and only Steve Chu.

01:01:27.200 I hope you enjoyed the conversation.

01:01:29.860 I hope it's getting the wheels turning.

01:01:31.180 A lot of you guys are in entrepreneurship right now, or you're thinking about getting into

01:01:35.700 entrepreneurship.

01:01:37.140 And what a great guest to be able to talk about this world and this arena.

01:01:40.540 And the pros and the cons and the benefits and the things that you need to do that maybe

01:01:43.460 you haven't considered before.

01:01:45.020 Because I know for me, a lot of these things I overlooked.

01:01:48.220 And that's a big part of the problem that I had with my own personal relationship.

01:01:52.900 I don't want you to fall into the same pitfalls and landmines that I've stepped on.

01:01:56.400 And that's why we do this podcast.

01:01:58.320 So if you would, if you liked this one, if you enjoyed Steve, connect with him on the

01:02:03.920 gram.

01:02:04.380 I think his handle on Instagram or his user ID or whatever you call it is my wife quit

01:02:10.180 at my wife quit again. 1.00

01:02:11.720 Great name.

01:02:12.760 And also check out his book, the family first entrepreneur.

01:02:15.920 I think you're going to enjoy that one.

01:02:17.400 And obviously we go into a lot more depth.

01:02:20.060 We, he goes into a lot more depth in that book than we did here.

01:02:23.200 So guys, outside of that, take a screenshot, tag us up, tag Steve, tag me, post on Instagram,

01:02:28.500 post on Facebook, post on Twitter, post on YouTube.

01:02:30.740 I don't know, wherever, wherever you're at post, let people know, leave a rating review,

01:02:35.220 check out the book, check out the battle planner.

01:02:37.560 You got a lot to do.

01:02:39.040 And those are your marching orders.

01:02:40.360 Guys, we'll be back tomorrow.

01:02:42.040 Until then, go out there, take action, become the man you are meant to be.

01:02:45.820 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast.

01:02:48.800 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:02:52.800 We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

Order of Man - May 16, 2023

STEVE CHOU ｜ How to Lead Your Business and Your Family

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