Order of Man - STEVEN PRESSFIELD

00:00:00.000 The act of creation is something we all have a desire to do, but just because we desire to create

00:00:06.180 doesn't make it any easier. In fact, creating and putting your work into the world for others to

00:00:11.380 judge is probably one of the most challenging things a human can do. There's a lot of reasons

00:00:16.580 for this, but ultimately it just boils down to what my guest today calls the resistance.

00:00:21.520 And I'm honored to be joined by someone I've admired and respected for a very long time.

00:00:25.440 His name is Mr. Steven Pressfield. And today we talk about what resistance actually is,

00:00:31.520 how it manifests itself differently in people's lives. We also talk about the arrogance of planning,

00:00:36.800 the culture of virtue, identifying the soul's code, why work can be like war and how to equip

00:00:43.780 yourself for it. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears and boldly

00:00:49.160 chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time you

00:00:55.000 are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This

00:01:01.300 is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said

00:01:06.340 and done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name

00:01:10.840 is Ryan Michler and I am the host and the founder of the movement and the podcast that is Order

00:01:15.600 of Man. I know that I say this every single week, but guys, we continue to grow and it's not

00:01:21.280 a linear progression. It's a compounding progression. And I just want to let you know that I'm thankful

00:01:26.980 that you're sharing this message. I hope, and I assume maybe I shouldn't, that it's serving

00:01:32.420 you in some way. And the whole idea of this is that you can get the information and tools

00:01:39.420 and equipment and resources and conversations you need to thrive in your life. I had somebody

00:01:45.140 the other day, a woman asked why this is only for men and she felt excluded. And my intention

00:01:52.780 is not to exclude anybody. My intention is to give you men the tools that you need to go

00:01:59.420 out, to thrive, to lead, to serve effectively with your wife, to raise your children, to step

00:02:04.680 up in the community. And so everybody is served either directly or indirectly by the work that

00:02:10.760 we do as men. So if you're a man, welcome. If you're a woman and you're listening, because

00:02:15.120 I found out that there are quite a few women who are listening as well, I welcome you. This

00:02:19.480 is a tool designed to give men what they need to thrive in their lives. And we do that by

00:02:24.380 having great conversations with incredible, incredible guests like today's guest, Steven

00:02:28.960 Pressfield. But we've also had guys like Jock Willink, Matt Fraser, David Goggins, Andy Stumpf,

00:02:35.240 Wes Watson, Mark Manson, Andy Frisilla. The lineup that we have is absolutely phenomenal.

00:02:42.640 And I think it's probably the best lineup of guests that any podcast has out there. Of

00:02:48.000 course, I'm a bit biased, but maybe some of you agree. Anyways, guys, we're going to get

00:02:51.980 into this in here in just a second. I do want to mention the collaboration that we have going

00:02:56.640 on right now with Warrior Poet Society. They've got an exclusive network where they're hosting

00:03:01.920 some exclusive Order of Man content, a show that we have over there, as well as

00:03:06.120 Real World Tactical. And of course, John Lovell's show, War Poet, and several others as well.

00:03:11.740 So if you're interested in the Warrior Poet Society network, I have managed to get a discount

00:03:17.780 for you guys. So you can thank me later on that one. If you head to orderofman.com slash

00:03:22.240 WPSN, orderofman.com slash WPSN, and use the code orderofman, all one word, orderofman,

00:03:31.000 then you can get your discount and you can gain access to the exclusive content. If you have not

00:03:36.920 had enough of me, or you want some information from other people, regardless, great stuff over

00:03:41.780 there. Check it out. Orderofman.com slash WPSN. All right, guys, let me introduce you to my guest

00:03:47.860 today. He is the one and only Steven Pressfield. Needless to say, many of you are probably already

00:03:53.180 familiar with at least some of his work, including the War of Art, Do the Work, The Warrior Ethos,

00:03:58.980 and Gates of Fire. But what a lot of you may not know is that Steven wrote for 27 years before his

00:04:06.500 first novel, The Legend of Bagger Vance was published. So obviously he knows a thing or two

00:04:11.680 about putting in the work and overcoming resistance in all of its forms. Since then, he's gone on to

00:04:17.820 sell millions and millions of copies of his books and has become one of the most influential figures

00:04:22.660 in fighting through challenging times, paying your dues, and really just teaching others how to

00:04:29.480 succeed as creators. Gents, this one is a very, very powerful conversation. So I hope you enjoy.

00:04:36.700 Steven, thanks for joining me. It's an honor to have you on the podcast. I've been looking forward

00:04:40.780 to this conversation for some time now. Hey, it's my pleasure, Ryan. And I see you're reading

00:04:45.240 The Warrior Ethos on your Instagram feed. So that's great. At least it's short, right?

00:04:50.600 That's true because I've been reading this as well and I'm not through it. I haven't read it as fast

00:04:55.320 as I would have liked. When I reached out to you, I said, embarrassingly enough, I haven't got through

00:04:59.660 this book, but what I have got through so far is so fascinating. I've got some of your other books

00:05:07.360 here as well, Turning Pro and The War of Art. The other one, the one I don't have is Do the Work.

00:05:13.740 I was looking at some of my library here earlier today and I think I must have lent that one out

00:05:18.120 because I give away so many of these books right here. So somebody must have my personal copy and

00:05:23.700 I have no idea who it is. It's good to talk with you because five years ago, roughly when I started

00:05:32.560 this movement and podcast, it was really this book, The War of Art that got me on the path. And I think

00:05:40.140 bringing some sort of a tangible nature to the quote unquote resistance is really what made it

00:05:49.040 more manageable for me. Do you find that that's true for a lot of people? I do. And I hadn't really,

00:05:54.820 you know, when I originally wrote The War of Art, which was in 2002, I thought this book is only for

00:06:00.560 writers, you know, and in fact, I wasn't even sure if writers would relate to it. I was wondering if

00:06:05.680 I was the only one that heard this voice in my head and dealt with this demon, you know, but yeah,

00:06:11.680 it seems to particularly anybody that's kind of entrepreneurial at starting something from

00:06:16.800 scratch, you know, trying to bring a vision into the world. It does seem to resonate.

00:06:22.080 Yeah. Do you think it's just, do you think it's so difficult because people can't really put their,

00:06:26.740 their hands on it as to what it is. And so it just remains this kind of loose idea and they don't

00:06:31.720 really know how to articulate what it is and therefore they can't address it and deal with it.

00:06:35.960 I, you know, it's hard to know what goes on in somebody else's head, but I know for me,

00:06:40.780 I mean, I had like, I would say a seven year period where I was just, my ass was getting kicked

00:06:46.600 left, right, and center by resistance. And I had no clue that that was even what was happening.

00:06:52.800 Right. So for me, at least when I was able to give a name to it and realize that it wasn't my voice

00:06:59.980 that was saying those things in my head, you know, that it was this alien force,

00:07:06.060 this alien negative force that, that I was able to sort of get a handle on it. So I think maybe,

00:07:11.440 maybe that's what it is. I mean, yeah, let me ask you, Ryan, what was it for you that,

00:07:15.520 what were you struggling with? Was it getting the podcast and the order of man and everything going,

00:07:20.880 or what was it? You know, I wish I could tell you, is this like, it was this one thing that I just

00:07:26.120 couldn't overcome, but it just, it wasn't like that for me. It seemed to be more of a cloud of

00:07:30.920 inaction and almost paralysis by analysis. You know, I had so many different ideas and thoughts

00:07:36.840 and concepts and directions and things I wanted to do. And because I had so much of that, that's

00:07:44.700 how it showed itself for me is like, okay, I don't know what to do, so I'm not going to do anything.

00:07:48.780 Uh-huh. I don't know if that's pretty typical, if you hear that quite a bit.

00:07:53.460 Yeah, it is pretty typical. In fact, even right now, I'm involved in just a,

00:07:57.220 just doing one small thing, trying to get a graphic image for something I'm working on.

00:08:01.560 And I'm getting to that thing where I've got like so many ideas and I'm, I'm paralyzed. And I realized

00:08:07.000 that I've got to just, you know, hey, suck it up, pick something and go for it, you know?

00:08:11.740 But yeah, I think, I think in the grand scheme of things, especially when it comes to putting

00:08:17.920 work out into the world, whether that's writing or music or a podcast or whatever your thing is,

00:08:24.360 that little bit of difference between, you know, this picture you're trying to choose from

00:08:29.500 and this picture isn't really that relevant in the grand scheme of things. It's probably not going

00:08:33.880 to make a whole lot of difference. It's pure resistance. Yeah.

00:08:36.480 Yeah. You talk about it and I actually heard you, I was, I was doing some research knowing

00:08:41.340 that we're going to have this conversation and listening to other podcasts you've done. And I,

00:08:44.420 I listened to you with Oprah and I, it was interesting. The thing that really stood out

00:08:50.420 in my mind is when you said, and you said it today, just a minute ago, that it's not your voice,

00:08:55.380 that if you hear that in your mind, it's not you, it's, it's something. Help me articulate that

00:09:03.320 because I tend to believe in, and maybe this is counter to what you think is that

00:09:07.220 it is us. It's just the weaker, maybe more pathetic version of ourselves, not the potential of who we

00:09:13.640 have to become. Well, I can, I can tell you this, Ryan, from getting thousands of emails from people

00:09:20.300 and people, you know, telling, describing the voice that they hear in their heads,

00:09:24.420 it's identical. It's across the board. Everybody hears the same thing, except that I do think

00:09:31.200 resistance is so diabolical that it can tailor it exactly to you and your, your weaknesses,

00:09:38.420 you know, but I like to think of it just as, as a force of nature, that it's an objective thing,

00:09:43.960 you know, like the seasons or the transiting of Venus across the night sky, you know, and the way

00:09:50.420 resistance fools us, that voice that we hear in our head, you know, that you're not worthy. Why are

00:09:55.160 you trying to do this thing? It's been done a thousand times before, et cetera, et cetera.

00:09:59.340 But what gets us is we think that that's, that's our voice, that it's us thinking and realistically

00:10:06.820 assessing, you know, what worthless, you know, opportunists we are, you know, but it's not,

00:10:13.900 it's just, it's an objective force, just like gravity. And once we sort of realize that,

00:10:20.040 you know, then it's easier to dismiss it and just say, that's not me. I'm not thinking that,

00:10:24.440 that's just, you know, the voice of resistance coming up and it's always going to come up and

00:10:29.240 it comes up for everybody. So you're using that as a tactic or a strategy to be able to more

00:10:35.580 effectively dismiss the ideas that are keeping you back. Yeah. Yeah. That's how I view it. And that

00:10:42.020 helps me deal with it. Yeah. That makes sense. One, one way I've chosen to look at it is that it's

00:10:47.300 not personal. Like I, I talk with, even though it's individual, it's not personal. You know,

00:10:52.940 I talk with so many people. That's a good distinction. It is. And I like that. Yeah.

00:10:56.660 Well, I just think that there's so many people out there who think that, you know, the world's

00:11:00.160 out to get them or, or some sort of force is like conspiring against just them and nobody else. And

00:11:06.480 I just think we make ourselves too special when, and you talk about this because you talk about the

00:11:12.920 distinction of talent versus just work. Like I don't really consider myself all that talented when

00:11:19.140 it comes to podcasts, but why do we do well? Because I've been doing it long enough and I just

00:11:23.460 put in the work and that's just the natural outcome, but there's no great force conspiring

00:11:28.340 against or for me. It's just what it is. Yeah. I agree. It's work is everything, you know,

00:11:34.420 right. That, uh, I used to think, you know, that, uh, or people used to tell me, you know,

00:11:39.180 people tell me now that I'm a talent, but for 30 years, they told me I was a bum and I was doing the

00:11:45.420 exact same thing. So it's just a matter of work, work, work, work. Yeah. What is the difference?

00:11:51.740 Is it just because you have a proven track record or why, why even though you're doing the same thing,

00:11:56.560 do people view it differently? I think you do get better. You definitely get better. You get better

00:12:01.180 whether you realize it or not, you know, particularly in a thing like writing or podcasting, it's,

00:12:06.120 it's not like a physical thing. Like Michael Jordan, his skills are going to erode at a certain

00:12:10.760 point after time. But, uh, but for writing or any other kind of entrepreneurial thing that we're

00:12:16.840 talking about, you do get better. Wouldn't you agree that you're better now than you were,

00:12:21.740 you know, six or seven years ago? Yeah. Well, I agree with that. It seems that as we continue to

00:12:26.700 grow, more people are willing to point out that I haven't got better, but I would, I would, I would

00:12:31.360 tend to agree that I've gotten better at the craft. Um, yeah. The other thing I've noticed too,

00:12:37.960 is that you're talking about writing, you're talking about podcasting, creating, exercising

00:12:43.300 the creative muscle. It's very difficult to quantify improvement. I mean, you can look at

00:12:49.300 how many books you've sold or how many downloads you have, but you're not competing like you would

00:12:55.020 on the basketball court since you brought up that example. And so it's harder to quantify success.

00:13:01.680 Yeah, that's really true. Cause it's something like that. It's so subjective, right? One person might

00:13:06.320 say, Oh, he's great. The other person say, Oh, he's terrible. And even it's very hard even to

00:13:12.580 assess your own self, you know, and in many ways, I think like some of my earlier books were better

00:13:19.540 than stuff I've been, I've done lately, but yet they're not, you know, and I, I can, I can just tell

00:13:26.660 that I'm more in command of the medium and more in command of my material than I was. And, um,

00:13:33.700 I just think, uh, it's hard not to get better because you've got that experience and the

00:13:41.960 mistakes that you made in the past now that you made blindly and you couldn't see now you

00:13:46.500 can see. So it's almost impossible. I think not to get better. What may go wrong is that

00:13:52.580 you may, your taste may change a little bit and you may be going into more nuanced areas

00:13:58.400 that people who followed you before don't want to follow you into that area. You know,

00:14:04.200 like if you think about Bob Dylan's album and stuff like that, people went crazy. They loved it,

00:14:09.280 you know, but as he kind of evolved and evolved and evolved, I think he's into things that interested

00:14:15.140 him before don't interest him anymore. So he's going into another, and a lot of times that area is a

00:14:21.160 place where his old fans don't want to follow him. You know, I'm a fan in a lot of areas he's in,

00:14:25.760 I don't want to follow him, you know? So, but he's getting better.

00:14:30.040 Well, and I think when you get to that stage, the approval of other people becomes less relevant,

00:14:34.380 which is actually a very nice position to be in. It's very, it's not comfortable. It's just,

00:14:40.560 you build up some level of confidence where if somebody comes and says, Hey, I don't like what

00:14:44.340 you do. It's like, Oh, well just tune out and go find something else. Like I really don't care at

00:14:48.340 this point. Do you find that you feel that way, Ryan, about your stuff? Do you find that you care?

00:14:54.700 I mean, there's certain people I'm not, look, I'm not the guy who, and here's one thing I don't

00:14:59.540 really appreciate about this particular perspective of modern culture is this zero Fs type mentality

00:15:08.140 where nothing matters and it's nihilistic. It's not that it's just that, because I do care about

00:15:13.020 certain people's perspectives. I do care about the people I admire and respect and look up to.

00:15:18.720 I do care about the way they view my work and what I'm doing, but there's a loss. I'm able to

00:15:25.580 make that distinction. You used to be, I cared about what everybody thinks and now it's the right

00:15:29.860 people. And how do you decide who the right people are? You know, I base that on what my goals and

00:15:38.640 objectives are. So certainly my wife is one of those right people because I feel I have an obligation

00:15:44.000 and a responsibility to lead effectively within the home and to partner with her. And so the way she

00:15:49.980 feels about the way I'm showing up is relevant to what I'm trying to create in my life.

00:15:55.360 Ah, good answer.

00:15:57.660 Thank you. You know, you, you, um, one of the things, as you said, the mistakes that you made

00:16:03.900 in the past are different. You know, you're making different mistakes. I almost look at it and think

00:16:08.260 you're, you're, you're making better mistakes, right? Like the mistakes don't go away. They're

00:16:13.040 just, they're just better. They're, they're more sophisticated mistakes, which lead to greater

00:16:17.980 results and potential greater loss too, which can be scary in and of itself.

00:16:23.440 But the mistakes hurt just as much. That's the thing.

00:16:26.300 They do.

00:16:26.940 And you definitely feel like, uh, I'm an idiot that after all this time I've been working and

00:16:31.740 I'm still screwing up in this, you know, in the same way, you know, or, or I'm screwing up in a

00:16:37.420 new way, but it's just as bad, you know, you're sure. How do you personally deal with that when

00:16:42.040 you, when you do screw up or you do mess up, but what is it that you work through on your own?

00:16:47.240 You know, it's a re that's a really good question. And I, I had a, a thing, uh, maybe a year,

00:16:52.980 year and a half ago where a book that I was working on just sort of crashed in the middle.

00:16:58.480 And, uh, you know, I just realized that, uh, I'm working with my editor, Sean Coyne, who's a

00:17:04.200 really good friend of mine and a partner of mine in black Irish books. And, uh, you know,

00:17:09.140 I got one of those long notes from the editor, you know, where they tell you, you know, you're,

00:17:13.600 this is bad that you've really gone off the track here. And it really threw me for a loop for like

00:17:19.920 for weeks, you know, where I, uh, uh, I actually wrote a bunch of blog posts about this called

00:17:25.740 report from the trenches, you know, and, and funnily enough, or not so funnily enough,

00:17:30.840 people really related to them. So I guess, you know, I think when you fall down and you're, uh,

00:17:36.340 and you're honest about it, everybody can relate to that, you know? So I just had to,

00:17:42.660 you know, I always say there's a thing in the Marine Corps where they say, work the problem,

00:17:46.920 you know, that, that, uh, get the, uh, the emotional side of it out of it. The emotional side

00:17:55.320 of I'm a loser. I screwed up. Uh, the stakes are terrible, et cetera, et cetera. And just think,

00:18:00.140 you know, what went wrong here? What, what, you know? So, and the upside of that is if you can

00:18:05.880 just kind of isolate that and hang in and try to like in writing it. So, you know, what went wrong

00:18:11.000 in the story? Why did I, why did this not work in the middle? Why did this fall apart? And when you

00:18:16.880 do kind of solve it or figure out what it is, you make a real great leap forward and you learn

00:18:23.860 something. Oh my, oh, I'd never realized that, you know, and it really helps the craft, but

00:18:29.160 it's, I would say for anybody listening to this, that runs into one of those things where something

00:18:35.400 you're working on crashes in the middle and the tendency is either to walk away from it,

00:18:41.900 you know, to blow it off and walk away, or if, or to dig in your heels into what you've got,

00:18:48.640 you know, and saying, I am not changing this. This is me. I love it. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:18:53.680 It really talk about being a man and you want to define, you know, or I would say what being a

00:19:00.780 professional is in this point is to not give into those tendencies to walk away from it or to dig in

00:19:08.480 your heels and refuse to budge is to really open your mind, accept the fact that you can be wrong,

00:19:15.340 accept the fact that you screwed up, take kind of responsibility for that, which is hard and it's

00:19:20.260 painful and then kind of settle down and solve the problem. And that's a, that's a really hard

00:19:27.300 thing to do. Yeah. I'm glad you talk about it because my net, my follow-up question was going

00:19:32.260 to be like, how do you, are there times where just charging and plowing through makes sense?

00:19:37.320 Because that is my natural tendency. If I come, if there's a problem or something that gets in my way,

00:19:42.060 maybe it's the hard headedness or the stubbornness, or I don't, maybe a bit of a chip on my shoulder

00:19:46.800 where I'm like, bring it on. Cause I'm just going to plow right through it. Is there times where

00:19:51.040 that's appropriate? I would actually say what I was just saying was plowing through, but it's not

00:19:57.660 plowing through blindly. Cause in a case like that, you really have to kind of solve the issue. Like

00:20:03.780 I was just thinking about the story that, uh, um, I wrote a book about the six day war, the Arab Israeli

00:20:10.600 war of 1967. And I went, went over to Israel and I interviewed a bunch of fighter pilots and et cetera,

00:20:16.080 et cetera. And one story that fighter pilot told me was he got hit by a missile right underneath

00:20:21.920 the fuselage and it somehow had jammed up his, uh, his landing gear. And he couldn't tell

00:20:30.120 if he, if his landing gear had gone down or not so that he could, you know, he was trying to come

00:20:34.600 in for a landing. And what he did was he looked for the shadow on the ground. He flew really low

00:20:42.520 and banked and he could see the shadow of his landing here. And I thought, now that's working

00:20:47.980 the problem, you know, what I'm rather, I mean, if it was me, I'd have been pissing in my pants and

00:20:53.380 what to do, but that, I mean, that's sort of, you can say that's plowing ahead, Ryan, you know,

00:20:59.400 but it's also really thinking, you know, what's the problem here? How do I solve it? You know?

00:21:04.120 And I thought that was just a great, elegant, simple solution that they don't teach in flight

00:21:08.660 school. Right. Yeah. Well, I, they, maybe they do now because of that. Yeah. Uh, no, that's a

00:21:16.860 really interesting perspective and it does really require you talk about, you know, pissing your

00:21:22.640 pants. Like it does really require an element of detachment in a very, well, in this case,

00:21:29.280 a very dangerous situation. It's very hard to detach when you're literally talking about life and

00:21:35.740 death. Yeah. It's not so hard. If you're writing a book, you have another day and you know, you do

00:21:40.540 it the next day or the day after that. But you know, when you're running out of fuel and you don't

00:21:44.080 know whether you're going to land or not, that's yeah. Yeah. Well, I think if we approach our, our life

00:21:49.380 and our tasks and the things that we want to do with the same level of seriousness, it will certainly

00:21:54.160 help. It seems like we excuse some activities away, like, oh, this isn't important and I'll do it

00:22:00.820 tomorrow. Or I've got six months to get that done. And we dismiss it and dismiss it and put

00:22:05.680 it off and procrastinate. And before you know it, we find ourselves in a bad situation because we

00:22:11.080 don't hit the deadlines we have for ourselves. We're really flippant. It seems like when maybe

00:22:14.860 we ought to be more serious about some things. Yes, I agree. Yeah. I mean, seriousness is the

00:22:20.900 mark of, well, I mean, you're talking about the order of man or, or I, you know, I would call it a

00:22:26.040 professional, but seriousness without being humorless. It's like Michael Jordan, you know, if you were

00:22:34.420 watching any of the, you know, the last dance stuff, which was great, you know, you could really

00:22:39.660 see that, you know, he was totally, he was in it 100% every second of the day. And that, I think

00:22:47.300 that's great. That's yeah. That's what's required to succeed. How do you define what it means to be

00:22:52.360 a professional? That's a great question because I've certainly written about it enough. I mean,

00:22:58.700 I think it's in opposition to what being an amateur is. Um, an amateur is somebody that kind of dabbles

00:23:08.320 in something that's like a weekend warrior that is not fully committed to, to whatever it is. Um,

00:23:14.980 uh, if adversity arises, an amateur is going to say, well, forget it, you know? Right. But a

00:23:21.860 professional, if I, if you think about Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant or Tom Brady or something like

00:23:26.800 that, a professional plays hurt, you know, a professional deals with the, the messy reality

00:23:34.580 on the ground, you know, a professional kind of detaches themselves emotionally from, from the

00:23:42.420 chaos that's going around them. If you can, like Tom Brady in a two minute drill or something like

00:23:47.400 that, it'd be so easy in that situation, like a fighter pilot or something like that to just get

00:23:52.820 overwhelmed by the emotion of it. But, uh, I think that, uh, a pro is kind of cold blooded,

00:23:59.080 you know, it's, it's a sort of a balance in the sense that I think a professional in any field is

00:24:05.840 passionate about what they're trying to do. Like Michael Jordan was, you know, off the charts and

00:24:11.060 that sort of thing, particularly when he thought somebody disrespected him, you know, he was definitely

00:24:16.080 going to make a pay. But at the same time, you know, I think he was, he was very cold blooded

00:24:21.480 about it and he kind of knew this is what I have to do and, and I'm going to do it and I'm not going

00:24:26.840 to let anything else get in the way. Um, it's, it's, it's, it's definitely a mindset.

00:24:32.320 Right. Do you, so it does, you're not talking about it from the context of it being a career

00:24:37.520 or even being your income. No, no. Okay. That's a good question, right? Cause it's like,

00:24:42.440 you think, oh, professional. I know people start to think, well, that means money.

00:24:45.740 I got to get money. But no, I don't, I don't mean that at all. I really mean sort of, uh,

00:24:51.180 metaphorically professional, uh, flipping a switch in your mind to, you know, if you were

00:24:56.860 starting anything to say, I'm not going to do this as an amateur, I'm not going to do this as a

00:25:01.600 dabbler. I'm going to do this, you know, the way a full out pro would do it.

00:25:07.660 Do you think you have to make that commitment before you start something? Would you, let's say,

00:25:12.520 for example, somebody is really interested in, um, martial arts or interested in, you know,

00:25:19.100 maybe starting a side business, uh, or picking up some new hobby. Is it, do you feel like it's

00:25:25.420 a requirement that they have that professional mindset initially, or are there times where it

00:25:29.280 is, you know, yeah, dabble. And then maybe it turns into something down the road.

00:25:33.340 But I think sooner or later, you've got to adapt that mindset or else drop out. You know,

00:25:39.060 I think most of us do enter something with an amateur mindset. A lot of times we're just dumb.

00:25:46.160 We just think, well, hell, I'll just take this up. You know, I'll take up powerlifting or I'll,

00:25:50.140 you know, run an ultra marathon, you know, no problem, piece of cake. Right. Then you get in

00:25:55.100 it and it's real like, Oh my God, what have I gotten myself into? And at some point you sort of

00:25:59.400 realize you got to ratchet your game up. You know, I'm not anywhere near where I thought I was,

00:26:04.680 you know, it is. Those are really humbling moments. I think they are and painful as well.

00:26:11.140 Yes. Literally and figuratively there's, I run into this a lot where I see people who have this

00:26:19.400 amateur mindset, but they expect professional results. So it's really interesting because

00:26:25.660 they're, they're, they're, they're like, they feel like they're banging their head against the

00:26:28.360 wall. And then when you suggest that maybe you're not fully committed or maybe you're not doing the

00:26:32.740 work required, Oh, I'm working hard as anybody else. It's like, well, if that were the case,

00:26:36.480 you probably have the results. It's just interesting that people see that they, they,

00:26:41.520 they don't have what they want, but they're not really putting forth the required effort.

00:26:46.520 Yeah. I think that's true. I mean, I, I've certainly spent many, many years working like

00:26:49.900 an amateur and I did expect professional results. And I was always amazed that I wasn't getting them.

00:26:55.580 You know, I think in a way that's kind of part of the amateur attitude that you,

00:26:59.620 you're dumb enough that you think, gee, I'm doing this. You know, why isn't it happening for me?

00:27:05.840 When in fact, you know, you're really not doing it. You only think you're doing it to a certain

00:27:09.580 level, but you're really not. Does that require outside input? Like, how do you know if you are

00:27:16.760 objectively putting forth the effort? Is it just a matter of the results? If you're experiencing the

00:27:21.960 results, you're putting forth the effort or is there other factors at play here? Cause I imagine with

00:27:26.240 you, like there's time and I'm not going to lie, there's fortunate circumstances that are

00:27:30.980 beyond your control and unfortunate circumstances. Some of those play, play a factor as well.

00:27:36.720 I think, you know, I think we all have these moments where we think we're doing great. And then we

00:27:43.820 encounter a competitor, you know, that's really doing it great. And we have that horrible moment

00:27:51.340 when you realize, oh my God, I am nowhere near at the level of this person. It's very humbling. You

00:27:58.520 know, you sort of stagger back and you go, oh my God, I've got to, I better go back to ground zero and

00:28:04.340 really start rebuilding my foundation or something. So I do think that does happen. If you're fortunate

00:28:10.720 enough to have a mentor in any field that you're, you know, learning under or a boss that you're

00:28:18.300 bringing stuff to, and the boss keeps telling you, this isn't good enough, this isn't good enough,

00:28:22.840 you know, that's helpful because you've got that, that comparison always in front of you. But a lot

00:28:28.560 of times, like particularly with a writer, you kind of go off on your own, right? And you spend two

00:28:33.340 years working on something in your mind, you think you're doing, you're great, you know? And then

00:28:39.620 maybe, you know, you get some feedback and you realize you're not.

00:28:43.300 Yeah. Is that how long, like with your novels, for example, is that how long that they took you

00:28:50.780 to write? A couple of years? Is that what you're looking at?

00:28:53.040 Yeah. Usually it's two or three years. And, you know, in the, in the beginning when nothing

00:28:59.120 got sold, you know, and then when you also have to work to save the money to, to get those two years,

00:29:06.780 right. You know, a lot of time goes by without, you know, anything good happening.

00:29:12.360 Well, I was going to ask is, you know, I tend to be somebody who, and I think a lot of people are

00:29:16.720 like this is the more results you see, the quicker you see them, the more engaged you can be in that

00:29:22.000 pursuit, sitting on something for two years without seeing the immediate benefit of that would be a

00:29:28.280 real challenge for me. And I'm sure it was for you more so probably initially than maybe it is now

00:29:34.260 because you realize how it works. But how do you get through those times when you're not

00:29:39.560 experiencing the results that you would have expected or hoped for, but you're still doing

00:29:44.360 the work? Well, that's another great question. I mean, I haven't even calculated the years,

00:29:49.600 but I think from the time I started, left a job and started to try to write till the time I actually

00:29:56.980 sold a novel. It was like almost 30 years. And now it was maybe 16 or 17 years before I started

00:30:06.580 working, say in the movies where I actually was getting a paycheck, but it was, it wasn't just

00:30:11.140 two years. It was forever. And, and you know, I, there would be many moments I've like, I, one of the

00:30:21.180 jobs I used to work in was advertising. I would be a copywriter in an ad agency. I would save up my,

00:30:26.180 I'd work for like two years, save up the money, quit, go away for two years, work, fail, come back

00:30:31.940 again, do the whole thing over again. And at each point when I was ready to quit, to try to write the

00:30:38.900 next novel, my boss or whoever it was, who would be like a friend of mine would call me into the

00:30:44.840 office and in a very close the door and in a very serious and friendly manner would say to me,

00:30:50.540 look, Steve, don't throw your life away. You know, let's be realistic. You know, you've been

00:30:56.220 trying this for however many years you got a place here at this office. I'll give you a promotion.

00:31:02.180 I'll give you a raise. I'll give you another title, whatever it is, but don't throw your life away like

00:31:07.620 this. And I would go home after all that. And I would go, Oh my God, you know, they're right. You

00:31:12.440 know, how many times am I going to do this? I'm, I'm insane. You know, and my family was the same

00:31:17.160 way. They thought, you know, what is wrong with this guy? Why does he keep trying for this? And,

00:31:21.820 but each time I would quit and try to write a book again, you know, and, and, uh, for me,

00:31:29.740 I think it was just that I was, I would be too depressed if I would go back to working in an

00:31:36.220 office or doing something shitty like that, you know? And I just, I just couldn't do it. It was

00:31:40.740 like, whatever the soul drive that you have in you just wouldn't let me do it. But through all that

00:31:47.040 time, I really felt most of the time, one voice in my head was saying, you're out of your mind

00:31:52.820 doing this. You know, why are you doing this? It's, it's pointless, you know? And we're talking

00:31:58.000 about before, like we were talking, Ryan, about getting better. And were you bad? I mean, I was

00:32:01.760 bad. I was really bad. And, you know, I would show a book to my friends who were like talented

00:32:08.640 people and knew what they were talking about. And I could, you could just see the plastic smile on

00:32:13.260 their faces. They would, you know, try to not make you feel so bad about it, you know,

00:32:17.480 but you know, your heart was just sinking. And, uh, so I don't even know why I kept going through

00:32:24.220 that. I guess there's, uh, uh, I don't know. I got a letter the other day or an email the other day.

00:32:30.080 I don't know. Maybe I'm babbling along here into areas where don't. I'm actually, it's actually nice

00:32:35.040 to hear you not have like a, a well thought out oiled answer because it's, it's very much how I feel

00:32:41.500 too. When people ask that, well, how do you know when to quit? I'm like, I don't know. Like

00:32:46.260 that's never been in my thought process. That's never. And when things get hard or don't work out

00:32:51.960 or somebody doesn't show up for an interview or whatever, it's like, never once has it crossed

00:32:56.460 my mind to like, Oh, I guess, I guess it wasn't meant to be. I guess it's something I can't

00:33:01.160 articulate either. So it's actually refreshing to hear you not quite be able to articulate it.

00:33:05.460 Yeah. I was just going to say that I got a, an email the other day from a young writer and his

00:33:13.240 question was, would you go about things differently if you were starting out today? And he was obviously

00:33:21.280 a very social media savvy guy. And he was talking about, you know, getting an author's platform and

00:33:27.820 doing podcasts or whatever, getting a following, all of that sort of stuff. And, uh, and I thought to

00:33:34.940 myself and I wrote him back and I told him this really, for me, it's really only one reason to

00:33:40.880 be a writer. And that's because you have no choice. You know, you're just driven to do it and nothing

00:33:46.920 else is going to work, you know? So, and so I didn't feel very positive toward this young man that

00:33:53.200 wrote me, you know, I thought, you know, he's, he's into the current mindset of how can I do it

00:34:00.760 the easy way? Is there some kind of a hack? Is there some, how, how can I game the system

00:34:07.840 to immediately become Kim Kardashian or something like that? And to me, the whole point of being

00:34:15.760 an entrepreneur or an artist or whatever it is, is to, to bring out what's inside of you.

00:34:21.380 That's, that's there. That's just burning to get out and figure what, figure out what that is in the

00:34:26.940 first place. And then how to, how to bring it out rather than focusing on quote unquote success

00:34:32.500 or clicks or followers or whatever the hell it is. It's like, why are you in this business?

00:34:38.080 Are you in it from the inside out or from the outside in? And for me, the only way to be in,

00:34:43.500 in anything is from the inside out.

00:34:46.620 Men, let me hit the, uh, the pause button and share with you, uh, another event that we have

00:34:51.140 coming up. Now I know last week I talked with you about the legacy event, uh, which is for

00:34:55.080 fathers and sons. But this week I wanted to share our next event, which is called the main event.

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00:35:42.680 quickly as possible to lock in one of these last seats to this incredible experience. Again, it's

00:35:48.460 order of man.com slash main event to learn more and claim your seat. So do that right after this

00:35:55.140 conversation. And for now I'll get back to it with Steven. Yeah. And ironically enough, I think when

00:36:01.260 you come from that perspective, that's when the results show up. You know, I, I think about previous

00:36:07.240 jobs I had before this, I was in financial planning and I was relatively successful at it, but it never

00:36:15.020 felt like you were saying, I like how you articulated never from the inside out. It was always from the

00:36:18.840 outside in, like, this is the path I thought you went to be successful, to earn money, to provide the

00:36:24.940 lifestyle that you want for yourself and your family. And so that's the path I chose. And again, ironically

00:36:30.480 enough, I've been significantly more successful on all sorts of different metrics with this because it

00:36:37.340 came from here first and all of the other little things started to take care of themselves and to fall

00:36:42.560 into place. Let me ask you this, Ryan, was there a moment for you where you sort of realized that?

00:36:49.840 Was there an actual incident? Yeah. Yeah, there was. Can you tell me what it was? I can. I remember,

00:36:56.680 so I was doing both at the time. I was, I was doing my financial planning practice, which I owned at

00:37:02.340 that time. And I was doing this as well. And I remember I got a phone call from one of my financial

00:37:09.800 planning clients. And I, I, it was as simple as this. I pulled up my phone to look who it was and

00:37:16.160 I saw who it was and I knew it was a client. And I remember just going, I was like, I do not want to

00:37:24.320 talk to this person. And it wasn't that I didn't like that person. It wasn't that I didn't have a

00:37:28.900 good relationship with them. It was that I just did not want to do that at all. And that for me was

00:37:36.300 the moment I realized, all right, you got to get out of this business. And I, like you said,

00:37:42.600 worked, worked the problem, right? Worked the scenario. It took me about six to eight months

00:37:46.480 and eventually went on to sell the practice and be fully immersed in this. But yes,

00:37:51.320 that was the moment for me. Now, did you feel like you changed?

00:37:55.420 Like, did your DNA change in that moment in some way?

00:37:59.600 I, you know, I haven't thought about that, but I think looking back on it,

00:38:04.700 the way I would describe it as just the level of clarity and energy and focused was immediately,

00:38:12.020 it was like, I lifted this weight off my shoulders where I'm like, Oh, free. Even though I wasn't

00:38:17.600 completely free because I was still in the business, I felt free because I was working in it,

00:38:22.680 but I was working towards what I really wanted to do.

00:38:25.600 Yeah. Right. Yes. I know just what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of times,

00:38:30.680 and I know I felt this way in my younger years, you're, you're young and you're sort of lost and

00:38:36.100 you're sort of asking yourself, well, what is my calling? What is, what is the thing that I was,

00:38:40.700 and you, and you sort of believe I should be able to solve it tomorrow. You know, today's Tuesday,

00:38:46.160 I should be able to figure this out by Wednesday, you know? Right. But in fact, I think the reality of

00:38:50.820 it like in your story, right, you have to kind of go through a process, you know, it's something

00:38:57.860 inside in the soul, you know, and it takes time before that moment when you look at the phone and

00:39:03.480 you, Oh no, I don't want to talk to this guy. Right. That couldn't have happened the day earlier,

00:39:08.240 I would bet, you know, or a year earlier, it was like the stars had to align inside you.

00:39:14.900 So I think for that moment, you know, the tumblers of a lock had to, had to, you know,

00:39:20.400 that's a good way to look at it, you know, and then all of a sudden it was ready to happen.

00:39:24.700 The way that, uh, I've, I've looked at it in the past is, you know, you're walking through this

00:39:29.540 forest or let's say you come to the edge of a forest and you're thinking about going in

00:39:33.440 because you have a feeling there's something really rewarding on the other side of that forest.

00:39:37.940 And what you'd like to do is get the 30,000 foot view to see what's over there before you walk

00:39:44.100 through the mess and the chaos and the dark and everything else you're going to deal with.

00:39:48.960 But you don't have that option. You actually have to take a couple of steps before you begin to see

00:39:54.100 this path that you would have never known before. And then you got to take a couple of steps down

00:39:58.020 that path and then it opens something else up. And they're really, I don't, I'm beginning to think

00:40:03.380 like there isn't some reward on the other side of the forest. Like I thought there was, I think the

00:40:09.500 reward is just, I get more capable of walking through the forest and dealing with a meaningful

00:40:15.580 pursuit really is what it is. So that's a great, that's a great analogy or a great metaphor. Yeah.

00:40:19.900 I love that. That's great. When, uh, when you were talking with your previous boss and he was saying,

00:40:26.140 don't throw your life away, that was another form of the resistance. Is that, is that how you choose

00:40:31.840 to look at that? I would say that, that my buying into that was a form of resistance, you know,

00:40:38.960 my hearing that and saying, he's right. I am throwing my life away. You know, that was,

00:40:44.780 and the weird part is there's, there is an objective reality to that. You know, the, the boss

00:40:52.300 who's saying that, you know, he's not saying it cause he's a bad person or anything. He's really

00:40:56.640 looking out for your interests, you know? So there is a reality to that, but the, the belief

00:41:02.080 in it, in your mind, that's resistance, you know? Um, how you choose to interpret these experiences

00:41:10.100 then. If I had really known, excuse me for, uh, if I had really been confident in myself in that

00:41:15.520 moment in an office, I would be able to say, no, that's wrong. I've got to pursue this. I've got to

00:41:20.740 go into that dark forest. I've got to go forward, but I wasn't confident. So the, what the boss would

00:41:27.500 say to me would, would rattle me and make me think, wow, maybe he's right. Maybe he's right.

00:41:32.540 And I had no clue at that time that there was such a thing as resistance. That concept was not in my

00:41:37.900 mind at all. So it, it resistance was able to really do a number on me. So when you talk about

00:41:45.700 confidence, my thought has always been, you have to earn confidence. It isn't just something that

00:41:50.560 you know, you, you, you get to have just because you want it. Like you have to do the work and then

00:41:54.880 the work is what develops and builds some level of confidence and it's a cycle. So how do you begin

00:42:02.360 to develop at least some fortitude? Maybe it's not confidence, but some fortitude when you're not

00:42:08.900 confident in the path that you're taking? Yeah, that's, that's a great one. I think, I think in a way,

00:42:15.200 you know, uh, are you familiar with the concept of the Damon D A I M O N? Uh, no, I've, I've seen,

00:42:24.920 I've seen that, but I don't think I'm familiar with it. Oh, this is a, this is a great one. It,

00:42:28.920 uh, it comes from a book that where I first read it called the soul's code. Okay. Um, I'm blank,

00:42:35.660 uh, Hillman, James Hillman. And, uh, what he says, the Damon from which our word, it's a Greek word

00:42:43.300 and our word demon comes from that. And it was thought of in the ancient days as an inhering

00:42:50.440 spirit that you were born with, that you had a Damon and that, that, that would drive you forward.

00:42:57.980 And the word in Latin for the same common phenomenon is genius. Hmm. And so I think,

00:43:07.220 you know, uh, I'll tell you, I'll tell you a story I've told before, but, uh, you know, whatever,

00:43:12.260 it's, it's a good example of what the Damon is. Yeah. I have a friend named Hermes Melisynidis.

00:43:18.460 He's a, uh, he won the gold medal in the floor, a gymnastics floor exercise at the Atlantic,

00:43:24.800 Atlanta games in 96. And when he was a little boy, when he was like eight years old,

00:43:29.680 he saw gymnastics for the first time on TV. And he immediately went to his parents. This is in

00:43:35.200 Athens and said, you know, mom, dad, I want you to sign me up for, and he comes from a family of

00:43:40.980 doctors. His mother's a doctor. So for him, for his parents' point of view, he was going to be a

00:43:46.800 doctor. So they said, no way you're going to study gymnastics. Forget it. So he went on a hunger

00:43:53.000 strike and he just refused to eat. And finally, after four days, his parents caved in and they

00:44:00.040 said, okay, okay, we'll let you train to be a gymnast, but you've also got to promise you're

00:44:04.720 going to become a doctor. And he said, okay, I'll do that. So he did become a doctor and he did win

00:44:11.180 the gold medal, but the Damon, his Damon was whatever that force was when he saw gymnastics,

00:44:18.240 that just said to him, this is it for you. This is your thing, you know, and it wouldn't let him go.

00:44:24.660 And I think that like, for me, when a boss would say to me, you know, don't throw your life away

00:44:30.400 and something would make me throw it away anyway. I think that was my Damon. And it is, I mean, I would

00:44:39.960 bet that as you're hearing this, you could relate to it completely because I think you've obviously

00:44:46.060 got a Damon that is driving you into what you're doing with the order of man and all of the stuff

00:44:51.180 you're doing. And so. Well, the only thing I would, yes, in a way, but I've always been under

00:44:58.500 the impression or at least thought that I could do a thousand things and be satisfied.

00:45:06.040 Ah, really? Right. Like I. That surprises me. I think I could. I really do. I think that I don't

00:45:12.240 know if there's one thing where it's like, this is what you were born for. And this is what you're

00:45:16.940 meant to do. Now the skill sets that I might develop and articulate and grow might be, might

00:45:25.560 be that Damon, like you're saying, but I think I could apply them in a thousand different pursuits

00:45:30.920 and be satisfied. I don't know. That's. I'm just thinking about it from the perspective of somebody

00:45:36.820 like, do they have to discover that one thing or do they have, do they have the opportunity

00:45:41.740 to develop it? I guess I've always looked at somebody who like this gentleman found that

00:45:47.000 early in his life is just fortunate to be able to have that. But I don't think most people experience

00:45:53.280 that. Ah, I mean, I love to hear stories like that, you know, and I certainly feel like,

00:45:59.460 you know, people will say an actor will say, you know, my parents took me to a show when I was nine

00:46:05.740 years old and I saw Mel Brooks, you know, do something on, and I said that I've got to do

00:46:11.080 that, you know? And, uh, um, I, I, I, I think it can branch and it can evolve this thing, but at least

00:46:21.320 in my experience, it is kind of a, a calling, you know, it's a one, it's a one thing, at least for me

00:46:29.080 and nothing else really will do. Yeah. I guess that makes sense. Cause I've even said,

00:46:34.500 you know, I, I feel called to do the work that I'm doing right now. And I do believe that

00:46:41.320 everything that has been in my life from, you know, childhood to issues in my relationship,

00:46:49.340 everything that the whole sum of everything I've gone through has actually led me to right now.

00:46:53.880 I do believe that. And that is something I've shared and been vocal about. So I guess I can see

00:46:59.040 that. You know, it's weird. It's like, when you look backwards, things seem very clear. It's like,

00:47:05.780 Oh, the path was, you know, carved out for me. But of course, when you're going forward,

00:47:10.380 it doesn't look that way at all. Right. You're wandering in the forest and you don't know where

00:47:14.760 you're going. That's so true. I remember, I remember when my, my mom divorced my stepfather

00:47:22.580 and I remember thinking, I was so upset. It must've been when they told me about it. I was so upset

00:47:28.860 about it. And I remember vividly, and this was 25 years ago, vividly saying, why does it, why did

00:47:36.760 this happen to me? You know, why, why me? Why does this happen to me? And as I thought about that

00:47:42.940 story now, I've thought, well, I know why me, because I'm deeply connected with my kids. I'm deeply

00:47:49.360 connected with my wife. And had I not experienced that hardship, I'm not sure that I would be as

00:47:55.720 committed of a father and a, and a husband that I am today. And I know that that happened to me

00:48:02.280 so that I could be the type of man that I am right now. So it was a blessing actually in disguise.

00:48:07.620 It wasn't, didn't feel like that at the moment, but it certainly was.

00:48:11.500 Yeah. It's funny how many quote unquote blessings in disguise there are in our lives, you know,

00:48:17.620 or how many times you think this is the worst thing that ever happened to me. And then 10 years

00:48:21.560 later you go, Oh man, if that hadn't happened, I'd have been ruined. Right. Cause it set me on a

00:48:27.480 certain path. Yeah. I think that requires the, a long-term thinking. I had a friend, she used to say,

00:48:34.840 if it, if it, if it, if it's not going to matter tomorrow, I don't really put too much thought into

00:48:41.600 it. And if, and then, and then she would follow up with saying, and if it doesn't matter in a week,

00:48:47.100 then I don't put much thought. And if it doesn't matter in a year, I don't put much thought into

00:48:50.380 it. And that's pretty typical is like, there's things that I remember were so painful. And I

00:48:55.840 thought we're going to alter the course of my life. And now I can't even remember what those things are.

00:49:00.820 Like, you know, like I had, it had no relevancy in the grand scheme of things.

00:49:06.920 And the other thing to me is I find for myself that I really can't plan very far in advance. I

00:49:13.520 mean, I'm a believer definitely in the long, long do of things. You know, I really feel like my life

00:49:19.320 is the long game, you know, and that's what I've been playing for a long time. I just didn't know it.

00:49:23.620 But yet, I find that, like, just in terms of the books that I write, if I'm writing, you know,

00:49:30.700 book number nine, and book number 10 is coming up, I never know what number 10 is going to be

00:49:36.180 until I'm looking at it right in the face. And I certainly don't know what number 11 or 12 is.

00:49:41.060 And when I look back on some of the books that I've written, I don't know why, you know,

00:49:48.720 why did I go in that direction, you know, and it was the right direction was the right direction.

00:49:53.220 But I had no clue. Only when I look back on it, I say, oh, I see how that, you know,

00:49:58.980 that I was dealing with certain issues on the unconscious level that I wasn't aware of.

00:50:03.860 And this book kind of carried me through that, you know, one way or another.

00:50:07.800 I don't know if that makes any sense, but-

00:50:09.560 It does. Well, I was actually going to ask, you know, with as many different books as you've

00:50:15.560 written from The Legend of Bagger Vance to Gates of Fire to Do the Work and The War of Art,

00:50:22.300 it's like, how do you decide what you're going to write about? It seems like most successful

00:50:29.820 authors, correct me if I'm wrong, you would know more than I do, have a lane. And that's the lane

00:50:35.540 they stay in. They get really good at that thing. You're absolutely right. And somebody like me is

00:50:42.060 like a real nightmare for an editor for a publisher. I bet. I imagine. Because I keep switching genres and

00:50:47.980 people who might have liked the book I wrote two years ago, you know, it's like a band that brings

00:50:54.380 out an album and they've suddenly changed their sound. Right. It's like, you know, who's going to

00:50:58.220 follow them? But again, like what we were just saying, Ryan, if I look back and I look through the

00:51:03.900 titles, I can see there's a straight line running through them. You know, it might not seem like it,

00:51:09.980 but there is. But I also, you know, I'm a big believer in the muse. I believe in that there's

00:51:16.300 the inspiration comes from another place, and that we're sort of being led on a journey. And

00:51:23.420 so I'm just sort of trying to get the next assignment, you know, from heaven and enact that

00:51:32.460 assignment. So that's why I say I can never predict ahead of time where I'm going to go with something

00:51:38.740 like that. And in a way, I think it's great, you know, because, you know, the artist's journey is

00:51:44.340 surprising. That's all there is to it. Well, I think for a lot of people, it poses a lot of doubt and

00:51:49.220 question an uncertainty, but those like yourself who have embraced the uncertainty find it actually

00:51:56.240 pretty liberating. You know, people always ask me things like, oh, where do you see this being in

00:52:01.360 three years? I'm like, I don't even know what I'm having for dinner tonight, let alone what this is

00:52:05.140 going to look like in three years. Exactly. Yeah. And I'm okay with that. There was a time where I

00:52:10.280 wasn't okay with that, but now I'm enjoying it to the point where I'm like, I don't know,

00:52:14.960 but wherever it is, it's going to be awesome. I mean, if you just think about this virus thing

00:52:21.060 that we're all dealing with now, I mean, who knew this was going to happen? Right. Weeks ago. Right.

00:52:26.640 I mean, right. There were indications, you know, in China and stuff, but nobody knew that the entire

00:52:31.940 country was going to go, you know, bug nuts over this, you know? And so in a way it is sort of arrogant

00:52:39.440 to think, oh yeah, I could plot out the five-year plan. I'm going to be, you know, really, really?

00:52:46.440 Yeah. You know, even just the external stuff, not to mention our internal stuff that we don't know.

00:52:51.320 Right. Right. What's, uh, what do you see the distinction? You talk about the muse and now

00:52:56.940 you're talking about heaven. Like what is the distinction between the muse and what I would

00:53:01.000 say is God? Um, that's a great question. Uh, they could be the same thing in a way.

00:53:07.180 I mean, I, uh, I'm definitely a believer that we live life on two levels, you know, that we're

00:53:17.260 down here on the material level and there's a level above us and the demon has something to do

00:53:22.600 with that. And the level above us is much wiser than we are and is plugged into, I mean, the phrase

00:53:30.700 that I've heard that I like is the divine ground is plugged into, or is adjacent to, uh, to some

00:53:38.600 wisdom that's infallible that we can't describe, you know? Right. I think that what, what tight

00:53:45.260 borders on that is, are like dreams, you know, the, the deep unconscious, whatever it is, or

00:53:52.040 intuition that we have or inspiration that we have. Um, like the moment when you looked at the phone and

00:53:58.000 it was from the, uh, you know, the financial planning guy, something was happening in that

00:54:03.040 moment, you know, some intelligence knew, knew with crystal clarity and was delivering something

00:54:11.540 to you in that moment, you know? So you could call it the muse, you could call it God, you could call

00:54:16.240 it, you know, uh, quantum, the quantum soup, whatever, it's whatever that mysterious force is

00:54:22.700 that, uh, you know, that athletes, when they get into the zone and they get into that, you know,

00:54:28.980 or artists when they're, when they really hit their stride or into that. And in many ways,

00:54:35.380 I feel like my life is kind of the pursuit of that, you know, or that I'm trying to serve that.

00:54:41.740 I'm trying to tune into that cosmic radio station, tune in and get that signal and then

00:54:48.380 try to follow that signal. How do you, how do you personally do that?

00:54:53.660 Um, for me, it's, uh, it's, uh, in, in real nuts and bolts sense for me, it's like,

00:55:00.720 I live my life kind of project to project book to book, right? Whatever it is I'm in this one,

00:55:07.340 I'm what it completely. And then when the next one comes up, you know, like when I worked on the,

00:55:11.820 on the book about, uh, about Israel, it's actually seven war. I mean, I just gave myself over

00:55:16.600 that completely, you know, I was over there and, you know, I was in it a hundred percent.

00:55:21.080 Um, so while I'm working on one project, I'm constantly looking, asking myself, what's the

00:55:28.460 next one? What's, you know, and I'm trying out ideas, you know, I sort of, something will come

00:55:34.200 in and I'll say, well, that's a great, that's an interesting thing. You know, and I'll kind of say,

00:55:38.000 is that it? Is that the one? So there'll be something else. And I'm just waiting for that

00:55:42.720 kind of moment when I go kind of like with you with a phone where I go, ah, that's, that's the

00:55:47.940 one, you know, really. And at that point, then I just kind of commit to that. And it is, and it is

00:55:54.460 like an aha moment for you that, that you feel like that, is that the way you would describe it?

00:55:58.860 Yes. Although sometimes the aha moment takes a few months, several aha, it's an aha, then it's a

00:56:05.000 bigger aha, then it's another aha, but yeah. It's like, wait, I thought you wanted me to do this.

00:56:09.540 And now you're telling me to do this? Yeah. Yeah. But it usually isn't like that. It's usually

00:56:13.740 fairly clear. Yeah. I'm amazed with your, your level of immersion. The other person that I think

00:56:19.880 of is Jack Carr. I think you just recently did an event or something. Just met him. I've never met

00:56:25.460 him in person. He's a wonderful guy. He's such a great guy. I've been friends with Jack for

00:56:31.800 about two, two and a half years now. And I've been amazed with his level of immersion. I mean,

00:56:39.820 he goes to Africa and he works with poachers and he's getting all of this Intel and insight. And then

00:56:46.680 of course he's got his seal background. And then he takes that, like he is fully immersed. I see the

00:56:51.700 same thing in actors. You know, we think it's weird, right? But you see actors who don't break

00:56:57.560 character for example. It's like they got to immerse themselves. I can actually, as strange

00:57:02.620 as maybe it is, I can appreciate the level of immersion and attention and professionalism

00:57:07.700 like we were talking about earlier towards their, their craft. I can certainly appreciate

00:57:11.420 that. Yeah. I mean, it's always amazing to me, like when they have to change their bodies,

00:57:16.260 actors, you know, like you're going to be playing Leonidas and you've got to have six back abs

00:57:22.520 that you've got like, you know, four months to get them, you know, or you got to gain like Robert

00:57:27.860 De Niro. Right. Oh, I was going to say, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but, um, I was, I was asking

00:57:33.360 if you did any sort of consulting or anything like that with, for the movie 300. I really don't know.

00:57:38.460 No, it's an, it's an interesting question. It's actually when, when, uh, at that time, you know,

00:57:44.240 movies get what they call in development, you know, and, and, uh, production entities will option a book

00:57:51.220 or something like that. And then they'll have a script written and blah, blah, blah. And it's

00:57:55.040 moving forward. And they're, they're trying to get actors attached and they're trying to get a

00:58:00.040 director and trying to get financing. And so Gates of Fire and the book 300, the graphic novel by Frank

00:58:06.180 Miller, they were on kind of tracks together, you know, and it was a question of which one is going

00:58:11.920 to win, which one is going to get financing first and 301. And so it became a movie, but Gates of Fire

00:58:19.300 never had anything to do with that at all. Nobody talked to me and they shouldn't have,

00:58:23.860 you know, it was really a whole other project.

00:58:26.440 Why do you, what, what would, what made the difference? Do you think, uh, if they were

00:58:30.940 running on the same track, like what would make the difference for the studio to choose one over

00:58:35.420 the other?

00:58:36.560 Uh, I mean, it were different studios, you know, like with Gates of Fire, they had for a while,

00:58:43.080 they had George Clooney was attached and then they had the director, Michael Mann was attached.

00:58:47.900 And then what would happen would they choose another project? Oh, I'm going to make this

00:58:52.600 movie. So now they're out of action for 18 months. And, uh, so I think the, uh, the, you

00:58:59.300 know, 300 just got it together. They found the director, Zack Snyder, and they found the cast

00:59:03.740 and they got the money and it worked out.

00:59:05.960 Yeah.

00:59:06.880 Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because I knew that they weren't attached. I, I, as I was,

00:59:11.820 as I was reading the book, I was, obviously there's some differences, you know, it runs,

00:59:16.160 runs, it's the same story generally, but there was some, some differences. Like how much research

00:59:22.520 went into the book? I mean, obviously it's well-researched. Is it a book that's as factual

00:59:29.860 as possible? Or is there like how much liberty is taken in the book? I'm really curious about that.

00:59:35.040 It's, it's as factual as possible.

00:59:37.080 Okay. That being said, we scholars, historians know very little about ancient Sparta. You know,

00:59:47.200 the culture was very secretive. I mean, it's a kind of a crazy thing that words actually written

00:59:53.840 by an actual Spartan. I think we have like 47 words total.

00:59:59.020 Really?

00:59:59.980 So everything else comes from other, other writers in the ancient world that knew

01:00:05.060 of the Spartans, you know, or had contact with them, but the Spartans were very secretive.

01:00:11.220 So a lot of what's in Gates of Fire is, is me, you know, imagining it, but it's imagining it

01:00:21.660 according to the truth that we do know. Right. So I'm not like going off on tangents

01:00:28.460 that are a bunch of bullshit. I'm just really trying to sort of, you know, for instance,

01:00:33.640 there's a part in there, I don't know if you've gotten to it yet called the science of fear.

01:00:38.620 Okay.

01:00:39.100 Which in the Greek word was phobologia.

01:00:41.520 I haven't got to that point. So.

01:00:43.060 So I remember, I just thinking to myself, you know, every great culture, like the samurai,

01:00:50.520 the warrior culture had the code of Bushido. Right. And it, and it had definitely had tenants

01:00:55.820 and, you know, exercises. And it was, it was a really well thought out, deep philosophy. Right.

01:01:02.220 And I thought, well, the Spartans had to have something like that too, but we don't know what

01:01:06.380 it is because it was never written down in that day and nobody has really translated. They kept it

01:01:11.520 secret. So I sort of kind of asked myself as a writer of fiction now, because it's historical

01:01:16.600 fiction. I thought, well, what was that thing? And I just said, I just made it up. I said, you know,

01:01:23.360 it was a science of fear and it was da, da, da, da, da, da. And, um, so I often wonder if we actually

01:01:31.620 could beam a real Spartan from that year back and show him what he would say. Oh, that's bullshit.

01:01:36.520 We didn't have anything. You know, or would he say, wow, you were right on target. We really had

01:01:40.800 something like that. Yeah. Well, maybe in the afterlife, you'll be able to answer that.

01:01:45.040 Somebody will answer that question for you. Yeah. Maybe so. No, I really enjoy it because

01:01:50.760 obviously there there's, you know, some elements of, okay, well, this is, you know, what I imagined

01:01:56.560 it would have been like, but it just seems so everything about it seems so thorough and realistic.

01:02:01.620 I'm like, oh, okay, well it's interesting. I wonder why they kept everything so secretive.

01:02:07.180 Do you know anything about that? Why, why it was so secretive or why it wasn't well documented?

01:02:11.160 Because they seem to be such a cohesive culture. I'm just really curious why it wasn't documented

01:02:19.080 as well as maybe it could have been. Here's what I think it was. And, uh, I think this is a pretty

01:02:23.980 good guess from the academic stuff that you can read. Sparta was really in its own mind,

01:02:30.060 a culture of virtue and it was warrior virtue, you know, but they've definitely had, uh, they really,

01:02:40.440 they were sort of, this is a kind of a odd analogy, but like say the Amish or the Quakers or something

01:02:46.420 like that, where they really felt like they were a world apart and that the rest of the world was

01:02:52.860 corrupt. You know, there was no money allowed in Sparta, right? Because they felt that money

01:02:58.380 corrupted people and would corrupt people from the virtue, the pursuit of money. So the reason they

01:03:03.980 kept foreign influences out was they felt that they would, they would, uh, they would, uh, bring them

01:03:10.520 down from their virtue. And so they, that was why they were so secretive. They just felt like we don't

01:03:17.720 want to let anybody in and screw things up. You know, it's like kind of like the virus. They kept

01:03:21.900 the viruses of, of bad habits out. Right. That was their, their point of view. And they also believed

01:03:29.580 they believed in not writing anything down. You know, they didn't have a constitution that was

01:03:34.920 written down. They didn't have anything like that. Um, because they felt that if it, if something

01:03:39.840 precepts lived in a person's heart, that that was where it really counted. No. And, uh, so I think

01:03:46.800 it was the idea that they were a culture of virtue and they didn't want to be contaminated by any

01:03:51.800 external influences. And of course, what happened after the Peloponnesian war, the big 27 year war

01:03:58.080 with Athens, Sparta was kind of compelled out into the wide world and they did get corrupted. And in

01:04:05.140 fact, they were easily corrupted because they were so sheltered in a way in their own hermetically

01:04:11.620 sealed place, you know? So it did, you know, the, the, the mythos kind of crashed at some point.

01:04:19.740 Right. It's interesting. I just contrast that with, with our culture, you know, America. And I think,

01:04:25.320 man, we're so divided, like what you believe to be so right and so true and virtuous and moral.

01:04:32.580 And you know, with every fiber in your being, there's an egg, there's another person out there

01:04:37.720 who equally believes as fervently about their position, which is at direct odds with yours.

01:04:43.580 Yeah. Yeah. And there's, I think there's merit in some of that. And I think that there's some

01:04:51.280 potential destruction and calamity in that as well. It's just a very weird. Yeah.

01:04:56.480 It's like, so it's just a weird place to be. And I don't know what a better solution is. Is it to

01:05:02.280 completely isolate like the Spartans did, or is it to open it up to anyone and everyone like we tend

01:05:07.820 to do? It's very interesting. Yeah. I mean, I was just, you know, think of the other day that

01:05:14.260 if we could beam an Athenian from the past into the present America today, the Athenian would be

01:05:22.060 right at home, you know, would be aware of influences from all over the world, a culture,

01:05:28.440 courts of law, democracy, arts, and, you know, and corruption, you know, many, many ideas are

01:05:35.580 floating around. But if we brought a Spartan back, they would be like from another planet

01:05:40.580 and they would look at us and despise us, you know, or they would shake their heads and say,

01:05:47.940 this is what we were afraid was going to happen. You know, this is why we were so secretive. We

01:05:54.360 were afraid it was going to deteriorate to this and oh my God, it has deteriorated. Yeah.

01:05:59.320 Were the Spartans family oriented or were they more community and looked at the

01:06:05.160 politicians and leaders, more of that authority figure? How did, how did that dynamic work in

01:06:10.720 their culture? It was, it was a bit of both. Like for instance, from the time, well, for instance,

01:06:18.120 when a boy was seven years old, he was taken away from his family and enrolled in what they call the

01:06:23.620 agogue, the upbringing in which, and they stayed with other boys for the whole, until they were 18

01:06:29.220 and they became, you know, officially a warrior, officially an adult. And then at that point,

01:06:34.960 they were until I think 30 or even older than that, they were not allowed to take their meals

01:06:40.980 at home with their family ever. They only ate in what they called a common mess, which was with

01:06:48.160 maybe 18 other men who were like basically their platoon, the guys that they would go to war with.

01:06:54.620 And it was very important that that group contained all ages. There'll be a guy that was 60 years old

01:07:02.600 and a guy that was, you know, 50 and 40 all the way. Cause they knew that like, if they had just

01:07:06.200 young guys, they'd go crazy, like a college fraternity, right? Yeah. Lord of the flies type

01:07:11.320 stuff. Yeah. So it was, and very much the elders felt like they were being mentors and indoctrinating

01:07:19.740 the youngers, you know, little by little. So in a way it was not so family oriented. It really was

01:07:27.660 kind of the community at large type of situation. Yeah. That's interesting. I'm just so fascinated.

01:07:34.700 I can't wait to continue to go through it because, you know, it's, I think it's important to look at

01:07:38.900 this history and extract what seems to work well and maybe not, you know, take into consideration or

01:07:45.160 into our culture, what didn't work so well. So it's always good to go through this history and

01:07:50.340 gain these lessons and these perspectives that I think a lot of people have overlooked when they

01:07:54.680 consider how we are moving forward and how we are progressing in our own culture.

01:07:59.480 Yeah. I mean, I wish that more people would read history, you know, in whatever form. And I wish I

01:08:05.400 would read more history because, you know, there's been so many different ways that human beings have

01:08:09.960 organized themselves and what they believed in and what they thought was a virtue and what was a vice

01:08:14.840 and et cetera, et cetera. That, uh, it, you know, the more you learn about that, the more it helps

01:08:21.120 to understand what's going on now, even though it's still completely nuts.

01:08:24.920 Right. Are there, uh, are there other cultures that you've come across that, that would be good

01:08:30.740 to, for men to study, to look at, to emulate, to learn from?

01:08:35.400 Well, for me, like the ancient world is really what I've studied. That's the only thing that I

01:08:40.180 really know. I don't really know about Japanese culture or anything like that, but Spartan culture,

01:08:45.060 Athenian culture, the Macedonians under Alexander the Great, the Romans, I mean, who had great,

01:08:53.080 great writers and great thinkers. You know, that whole era is, uh, uh, to me, a really,

01:08:59.560 really fascinating era.

01:09:01.420 Yeah. I've been fascinated with, with the Stoics. I actually listened to a podcast. I think you did.

01:09:06.640 I think it was, may have been earlier this year with Ryan Holiday, who's been, he's been on the

01:09:11.680 podcast a couple of times. And, uh, it was interesting to hear your guys' perspective

01:09:16.020 and the take on the concepts of Stoicism and Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus. That was really

01:09:21.160 interesting.

01:09:22.140 Which is, I really agree with Ryan Holiday that that's very applicable today.

01:09:26.460 Oh, no doubt.

01:09:27.500 To us as individuals trying to find our way.

01:09:30.340 Yeah. Yeah. I know that you've been very influential in, in his life and his writing

01:09:35.720 and the things that he he's done. So it's, it's cool to be able to talk with both of you.

01:09:39.460 Yeah. He's been very influential in mine too.

01:09:42.160 That, yeah, he's, he's pretty incredible. Well, Steven, I, I want to let you go. I just

01:09:46.660 want to let you know, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk about these different

01:09:50.580 works and have this conversation because this has been a real honor for me. And I know,

01:09:54.500 uh, as the guys tune in, they're going to really, uh, gain a lot from, from what we went through as

01:09:59.700 well. I do want to ask you a couple of questions. The first one is, and I prepared you, I told you

01:10:03.860 about this one is what does it mean to be a man?

01:10:05.780 Um, okay. I'm going to answer that as, as a writer or as an, as an artist. Um, and I do

01:10:14.120 think that, uh, there is such a thing as being a man, as opposed to being a woman, you know,

01:10:20.480 that there is, there are, that a man is different from a woman and that, um, and that the, uh, that

01:10:27.620 it's incumbent upon us as men to sort of go into that dark forest that you were talking about

01:10:34.200 before, you know, and not to stay on the outside. So I would say, and I'll go back to my concept

01:10:40.060 of the demon that I was talking about. And I, I really feel as a, as an artist, as a writer,

01:10:45.260 that I'm a servant of the muse, that I'm a servant of that higher dimension I was talking about

01:10:50.420 before. And so to me, being a man is that, uh, when that level, and this is aside from family or

01:10:59.560 anything like that, this is a side, this is kind of really more on calling on the subject of calling

01:11:04.960 or vocation to when that call comes that number one, that you're, that you will answer it, that you

01:11:14.700 will not, not answer it. And on the other hand, that you'll be ready, that you'll have the tools,

01:11:21.020 you know, that you'll, you'll have the mental tools and the emotional tools to be able to,

01:11:27.940 to respond to that call, whatever it is. And then, so it is really using your forest analogy.

01:11:34.200 It's like the world sort of presents you with that forest. Those trees come up in front of you.

01:11:38.940 And, and my definition of a man is that, that, that he will go into those trees and will find a way

01:11:47.840 or at least give it everything he's got to, to find that way.

01:11:53.680 Yeah. I like that. One of the things that we've talked quite a bit about and David Gilmore,

01:11:58.620 are you familiar with David Gilmore? He's got a book, manhood in the making that, that I really

01:12:02.440 love some other works. Anyways, he's, he's, he talks about and makes the distinction and Jack

01:12:08.220 Donovan talks about this as well. The distinction between being a good man and being good at being

01:12:14.280 a man, which I think is what you're highlighting here. You're talking about morality, right?

01:12:18.360 Coming from this higher plane. And, but that's not enough. It's not enough to be tapped into there.

01:12:25.300 You have to have that capability as well. You have to have the ability to act on your

01:12:30.020 moral thoughts and ideas and the direction that you get from that higher plane.

01:12:33.920 Yes. I would say that. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that. David Gilmore.

01:12:37.620 David Gilmore, manhood in the making is, is the book that it comes from.

01:12:40.920 I'm writing this down.

01:12:42.240 Yeah. He's got some interesting works. Well, Steven, I want to let you know, again,

01:12:45.200 I appreciate you. Um, what an honor to talk with you. The, the, the men who listen in are going to

01:12:50.080 get a lot of value from what we're doing here. And I'm excited to see what else you have in the

01:12:54.700 works. Cause, cause I will be a reader of it, of whatever it is.

01:12:58.560 Well, Ryan, it's been a real pleasure talking with you. You're, you're, it's been a great

01:13:01.980 conversation here. Thank you for having me. Um, if you ever want to do this again, let me know.

01:13:06.460 We'll do it again.

01:13:07.460 Yeah. I'm going to take you up on that. Much appreciated.

01:13:10.060 All right. Thank you very much. And thanks to all your listeners too.

01:13:13.400 There you go, man. The one and only Steven Pressfield. I hope you enjoyed that one. It

01:13:18.120 was a, uh, it was a real treat for me. This is somebody I've followed for a very long time and,

01:13:22.880 uh, have respected and his work has been instrumental, instrumental. I, I clearly remember

01:13:29.900 reading, uh, the art, excuse me, the war of art. I get those mixed up with Sun Tzu's,

01:13:37.720 the art of war, but the, uh, the war of art. Uh, I clearly remember reading that as I was

01:13:44.440 starting this and also in my financial planning practice and just being able to

01:13:50.020 make the resistance a little bit more tangible, uh, was something that allowed me to overcome it,

01:13:55.980 to face it, to equip myself with what I needed to rise up in the face of it. So if you haven't read

01:14:01.680 that book, I highly recommend it along with those other books, including gates of fire,

01:14:04.980 which I mentioned, I hadn't read up until this point. Uh, another very good book, uh,

01:14:09.680 regarding the battle of Thermopylae. Uh, also guys, just make sure you connect with Steven

01:14:13.520 Pressfield, shoot him a message. I get, I actually get messages from our podcast guests and they tell

01:14:20.020 me how often you guys are reaching out to them and they, they, they are thoroughly impressed with

01:14:26.140 the men and the caliber of guys that are banded here with us. So keep messaging them,

01:14:31.060 let them know where you heard them, uh, let them know what you're going to be implementing.

01:14:34.680 Let me know as well on Instagram, mostly that's at Ryan Mickler and let's stay connected and finish

01:14:41.680 these conversations outside of the podcast on the socials. Again, that's at Ryan Mickler.

01:14:47.460 All right, guys, uh, we'll be back tomorrow. I got a special announcement, uh, regarding a new

01:14:53.020 course that's going to be free and it's going to be available to you starting tomorrow. So make sure

01:14:57.720 you subscribe and then, uh, listen into tomorrow's podcast because it's a good one. And many of you are

01:15:03.280 going to want to participate in this free course. So we'll see you tomorrow until then go out there,

01:15:08.680 take action and become the man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man

01:15:13.240 podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:15:18.000 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - June 25, 2020

STEVEN PRESSFIELD ｜ The War of Art

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