Order of Man - STEVEN RINELLA ｜ MeatEater

00:00:00.000 Studies suggest that upwards of 95 to 98% of the world's population eats meat, but increasingly

00:00:07.080 our connection with not only our food, but the planet that provides it seems to be on the decline.

00:00:13.100 Now, personally for me, it wasn't until the last several years that I began to bridge the gap

00:00:17.760 between the food on my plate and where it actually resides. Today, my guest is none other than

00:00:23.600 Steven Rinella, also known as meat eater. We talk about so much during our conversation from the

00:00:29.520 importance of connecting with nature and wildlife, how to instill a sense of love and appreciation

00:00:34.740 for both in our children, the almost unexplainable power of what Steve calls venison diplomacy,

00:00:42.160 our interconnectedness with the earth and what she provides, and our counterintuitive,

00:00:48.360 non-adversarial relationship to the animals that sustain our way of life.

00:00:53.200 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your

00:00:58.080 own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time. You are not easily

00:01:04.060 deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient. Strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is

00:01:11.380 who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself

00:01:16.740 a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler, and I am the host and the founder of

00:01:22.280 this podcast and the Order of Man movement. Welcome here and welcome back. If you're new,

00:01:26.680 this podcast is dedicated to interviewing and having conversations with incredible men from all

00:01:33.540 facets of life who are doing interesting and incredible things so we can extract some of

00:01:37.840 their knowledge, their wisdom, their experience, distill it down into information that will help

00:01:43.240 us be improved as fathers and husbands and leaders in our community and business owners,

00:01:48.360 just men in general. This is no exception. I've got Steve Rinella on the podcast today.

00:01:53.160 Uh, we've had Eddie Gallagher in the past several weeks. We've had Marcus and Morgan Luttrell,

00:01:57.980 Jocko Willink, David Goggins, uh, John Eldridge, author of Wild at Heart, Stephen Mansfield,

00:02:03.660 uh, the, the lineup, Andy Frisilla. I mean, guys, I hesitate to even mention names at this point,

00:02:09.740 because if I do, I'll miss one of the, uh, most important podcasts that we've had and, uh,

00:02:15.980 conversation from the incredible guys that, that we have had, which I think at this point is over

00:02:21.180 300, I want to say 308 interviews at this point. So first and foremost, just want to thank you for

00:02:26.760 joining us, tuning in, banding with us and, uh, sharing. And that's really important that you

00:02:32.460 share this so that more men will hear this massive message of reclaiming and restoring masculinity.

00:02:37.020 Uh, before I introduce you to Steve, uh, I do want to make a very quick mention of what's coming up.

00:02:44.000 You guys know what's coming up January 1st. All right. That's what's coming up. And many of us are

00:02:49.300 waiting, you know, until January 1st to do our new year's resolutions and actually probably not

00:02:55.380 really even do it, but, you know, go through the, uh, the ritual that, uh, that we're actually going

00:03:00.880 to change or do something different with our lives. And most men don't actually do anything

00:03:05.200 different with their lives. 2021 outside of maybe some external circumstances is going to be very

00:03:10.300 similar for you as 2020 for, for the overwhelming majority of you. But if you really want to make a

00:03:16.680 change in your life, I encourage you to do something differently. So what I'm suggesting

00:03:21.500 that you do is over the next roughly 12, 13 days at this point, maybe even less as the release of

00:03:27.900 this podcast is go and sign up for our 30 day to battle ready program. I want you to be prepared

00:03:33.340 for January 1st. I don't want you to be winging it, hoping that things are going to work out or that

00:03:37.500 you're going to change miraculously because, uh, it's 1201 instead of 1159. All right. I want you to

00:03:44.160 actually improve your life. So we've got a free program. It's called 30 days to battle ready.

00:03:49.400 Uh, and it's going to help give you all the tools and resources and frameworks that you need to make

00:03:54.100 2021 your best year ever. The beauty is it's free costs you nothing. You're going to get a series of

00:03:59.180 emails. It's going to walk you through the system that I've used to transform my personal life

00:04:02.820 from my relationship with my wife and kids to the businesses that I've created and sold at this point,

00:04:08.060 uh, to my fitness and everywhere in between. So check it out. You can go to order,

00:04:11.960 a man.com slash battle ready, order, a man.com slash battle ready. All right, guys, let me

00:04:18.080 introduce you to Steven. Um, a lot of you guys are familiar with him. Uh, most of you probably

00:04:22.260 familiar with him via his Netflix show meat eater. But if you're not, he's an outdoorsman,

00:04:26.840 a conservationist. He's a writer. He's a TV personality. Uh, he's also the author of his

00:04:31.440 latest book, which is now a New York times bestseller. It's called the meat eater guide to

00:04:35.880 wilderness skills and survival. I think this guy's arguably done more to connect people to the great

00:04:42.660 outdoors than maybe any other person on the planet. Um, he got a start as a journalist.

00:04:48.340 Uh, he's writing about the joys and benefits of connecting with nature. Uh, but since has become

00:04:53.540 an extremely popular hunter and conservationist gents, I think you're really going to enjoy this

00:04:58.040 one. It's a little different, got a lot of unique angles, a lot of conversations that aren't

00:05:01.680 typically had. And it's my hope that this inspires you not only to get outside, but to also share that

00:05:07.480 love of nature and being connected with the world, uh, with future generations.

00:05:13.660 Steve, what's up, man. Glad to be joining you and have you here on the order of man podcast.

00:05:17.280 I've been looking forward to this one. Yeah. Thank you, man. Appreciate it.

00:05:20.640 Yeah. It's, um, I've, I've gone through your new book and, and it's funny cause we're at Barnes and

00:05:24.780 Noble. Uh, this was about two or three weeks ago. And my son, my oldest son, he's really big

00:05:31.280 into hunting over the past couple of years. And he's like, dad, we got to pick up Steven

00:05:35.100 Rinella's new, new book. And we went and we looked for it. Obviously it wasn't there. Cause

00:05:38.600 it wasn't out just yet, but he did find one of your, your other books. And he's, uh, he's

00:05:42.900 been studying that book, man. Yeah. He's all about it. So I told him I was going to be talking

00:05:49.060 with you today. He was a little bit starstruck and he's like, can I join you? I'm like, uh,

00:05:52.640 maybe I'll have him give you a shout out, but, uh, this is going to be a conversation

00:05:55.720 for us for sure. What was his name? His name's Brecken.

00:05:59.460 Brecken. All right. Thanks for the support, Brecken. I look forward to meeting you, man.

00:06:05.160 He's all about it. It's, uh, it's, I, I didn't grow up hunting like you did. I know you've got

00:06:10.380 a background in hunting and, and, and your, your father and your grandfather hunted. I didn't have

00:06:16.100 that. So to be able to get advice from you and see what you've done throughout your life

00:06:21.000 and generationally, it's been a big help in, uh, making sure he's on this path that I, I feel

00:06:25.160 like is a good path for both of us actually.

00:06:26.800 No, that's good. Thanks. I'm glad, uh, glad it would be of some, that, that, that information

00:06:31.600 would be of some use to you guys.

00:06:33.540 Yeah. Yeah. You seem like you've taken a little bit of a pivot, um, from just the hunting and

00:06:39.780 fishing world to trying to expand that out with your new book into wilderness survival, enjoying

00:06:47.460 nature. And it seems to be a broader approach. Would you say that's accurate?

00:06:51.760 No, I don't, you know, I hadn't really, I hadn't really thought about it like that too

00:06:57.200 much. You know, my first books were all narrative nonfiction books, you know? So I've written

00:07:01.220 about, I had one that was like about food, you know, um, scavenger's guide to old cuisine,

00:07:08.900 right? It was like a food story. I had American Buffalo, which is like a, you know, a history

00:07:13.260 book about an animal and also an adventure story about a hunt that I went on, but history and

00:07:19.300 adventure. I had a book, which was, you know, quite autobiographical in nature about, you know,

00:07:27.780 uh, living a life of hunting and fishing and what that means. Um, and then some instructional stuff

00:07:34.180 and wild game stuff. So I feel like it's kind of all in line because it's all draws from the same,

00:07:40.800 you know, the same kind of sets of experiences. Right. I think it was through the travels I've

00:07:46.680 done as a hunter and an angler, but also, you know, as a journalist and doing television,

00:07:52.120 that mass amount of exposure I've had to wilderness and wild places that came from that

00:07:57.400 thing. Right. And that's what sort of like trained me up and brought me to really understand,

00:08:01.800 um, some things that I feel people need to know who are engaged in this lifestyle. So I haven't

00:08:08.660 viewed it like going, I haven't viewed it like differently. Like everything I do to me feels

00:08:13.860 very sort of like precise and in line, you know, um, it might wind up being that it would have a

00:08:21.320 broader level of appeal, but it's very much from the mentality. It's very much from that,

00:08:26.620 what I regard to be that same mentality. Yeah. And I think that, I think you're right in that it's

00:08:33.040 on, on the same vein, but I think taking this, this approach where you're talking about other things

00:08:37.800 than just the hunting experience will open it up to individuals who may not have traditionally come

00:08:44.320 in to an appreciation for nature and the outdoors through the, the, the lens of hunting, but Hey,

00:08:51.140 I just appreciate nature. I want to go out and hike, or I want to learn how to survive out here.

00:08:54.560 And it might expose them to something they may not have otherwise been exposed to.

00:08:58.940 Yeah. You know, that's a good point, man. And I think that, you know, the next book I'm doing,

00:09:03.840 and you'd probably really say it, ask that question with the next book I'm doing. Cause the next book

00:09:08.120 I'm doing is, you know, I'm working on it right now. It's about kids in the outdoors. Right.

00:09:13.240 So yeah, if there's a, if there's a somewhat like unintentional migration away from some core stuff,

00:09:22.620 then I think it's just like, like maybe it's just in my head at all feels very lined up and lined out.

00:09:28.140 And it kind of like reflects where I'm at at a particular moment in time. But I do think that

00:09:32.840 this book will, um, yeah, of the work that I've done outside of my narrative stuff, you know, um,

00:09:41.240 I think this book will probably reach more people because, uh, there's a lot of people who go, you

00:09:47.060 know, as we're seeing with the COVID restrictions, like there's a lot of people who are going into

00:09:51.200 nature, not for the purpose of hunting and fishing right now. You know, they got national parks that are

00:09:57.160 seeing visitation of 50, 60, a hundred percent increase. Um, but then at the same time,

00:10:02.620 states are selling 10% more, 50% more hunting, fishing licenses. So there's this huge push of

00:10:08.780 people going out and it's kind of like serendipitous timing really, because we'd have to begin this book

00:10:13.300 project knowing about a global pandemic coming. Right. Like I'm glad I didn't write a book about

00:10:19.060 going to concerts, you know? Yeah, exactly. Uh, like how to go to a concert properly. I've been

00:10:24.860 screwed. So I kind of, I wouldn't have sold very well. Yeah. I kind of lucked out by writing a book 0.91

00:10:29.520 about, uh, something that's like really top of mind for people right now. And I think too, like

00:10:37.520 in working on it and the people we consulted with and the way we laid the whole thing out,

00:10:41.440 it's every, it's like, I aim it toward people who not like, not like people who sort of have this

00:10:47.840 fantasy vision of getting stranded on a desert Island with a giant Bowie knife. You know,

00:10:54.440 it's, it's not that right. It's not like, it's not like post-apocalyptic stuff. It's for people

00:10:59.220 who willfully go into the wild, right? Go into the woods, the swamps, the mountains, whatever.

00:11:06.000 They go to nature with an objective in mind. And the objective they have in mind could be like

00:11:11.100 to hike a trail to, to, to ski a hill because they're outdoor professional, you know, biology,

00:11:16.960 ecology, any number of the things. And we had a bunch of those people help us on the book. Um,

00:11:21.740 making a TV show, right. Take, trying to get your kids engaged with nature. Like people who are

00:11:26.300 willfully wanting to press out and push their own limits and go into places that might make them a

00:11:31.760 little bit uncomfortable. Like how do they go about that property? What's the mindset,

00:11:35.480 the skillset and the toolkit that you need to do that like effectively and to get done what it is

00:11:43.100 that you want to get done? How did you determine what you were going to write about? Because there's

00:11:48.640 an infinite number of scenarios and situations and experiences that you can address. So how did you

00:11:54.000 pick out the particular skillsets, mindsets, and toolkit or toolbox that, that you did select in the

00:12:00.500 book itself? Yeah, that's a good question. I think it came from the fact that

00:12:05.220 when I'm saying we here, I work with a, you know, I work, I work with a, with a team of people at

00:12:10.740 Mediator. Right. So very closely with Brody Henderson, who I've worked with for a long time,

00:12:15.760 a bunch of other guys that work with no other people sort of in our, in our circle that we

00:12:19.660 brought in to help consult with us, including like a, uh, an emergency room physician who does a lot of

00:12:27.340 wilderness medicine stuff. Right. So we, as like this group of professionals, this group of outdoor

00:12:32.360 professionals that consulted with, and then the, the, the help us pull this book together. It's kind of like

00:12:37.880 what we put into stuff that really stuff that like really happens and really matters. You know,

00:12:43.320 it's geared pretty heavily. Um, somewhat it's, it's just stated like explicitly that we're talking

00:12:52.380 largely about North America here. I mean, it's, it's applicable in other places, but that's the kind of

00:12:56.720 like the realm we lay out in our chapter, like things that bite mall, sting and make you sick.

00:13:00.820 Right. And it's like, it's pretty North American. Um, there's some stuff with waterborne pathogens,

00:13:05.800 discipline, other places, you know, and things like that. But it's like, what are the kind of

00:13:10.680 things that, that the, again, these people who willfully are spending time outdoors and wanting

00:13:17.300 to engage with nature? Um, what are the things they need to know? And so there's some things we didn't

00:13:22.520 go near. I mean, we did a lot about how to properly pack a car, right? How to load your car in the

00:13:26.700 wintertime, not toward a mind. It's not like, not like a post-apocalyptic scenario. It's not about how

00:13:32.380 to prep your house. Right. Um, for, for, for trouble or, you know, pandemic that spins wildly out of

00:13:38.560 control. That's all like stuff that people might want to know, man. God bless them. But this book is

00:13:43.320 about people who spend time outdoors. Right. What do they need to know? What kind of gear do they need to

00:13:48.740 have? What's the mindset they need to cultivate? Yeah. I mean, it is powerful because sometimes,

00:13:53.940 you know, we have a lot of guys that are probably listening who have, have always been in the

00:13:57.740 outdoors. They've always been in nature. They've hunted, you know, their, their dads and their

00:14:01.620 grandfathers took them hunting. And then we have a whole section of men who are listening, who

00:14:05.500 have never been exposed to it. I grew up in Southern California until the age of 12, 13 years old.

00:14:12.820 And the outdoors outside of just running around in the neighborhoods, causing trouble,

00:14:16.960 wasn't really something I was exposed to until I moved to Southern Utah, very small town in Southern

00:14:22.260 Utah and was exposed to, uh, what did they call it? They called it, uh, uh, I think fall break or

00:14:29.900 something in school, which more appropriately would have been named opening week of hunting season,

00:14:36.000 which is really why. Oh yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Feel more inclusive. Yeah. Right.

00:14:40.140 And so I'd see all these guys with, with rifles in the back of their truck windows. And we saw deer

00:14:45.540 hanging from every outdoor basketball hoop in town. And I'm like, what in the world did I just

00:14:49.880 move into? So there's a lot of these guys who are listening, who are like me that didn't have this

00:14:55.100 exposure to nature. Where do you suggest guys like this get introduced and maybe just put their,

00:15:01.440 you know, their foot into it, the tap their toe into it a little bit.

00:15:05.020 Yeah. Uh, uh, that's something interesting to think about, man, because I don't normally run

00:15:10.640 around, um, you know, I don't normally run around trying to convince people, um, that they need to

00:15:20.120 do something. Right. Right. I step away from that around kids. Like I do think that, um, there's a

00:15:26.740 hundred ways to raise great kids. You know, I got friends that live in cities and that's their life.

00:15:32.820 Beautiful kids, right? Like compassionate, caring, faithful, like great kids. There's a hundred ways

00:15:39.040 to do it. But, um, for me and for people who have like a lifestyle similar to me, like I do think

00:15:45.680 there's some valuable stuff to be had by getting kids engaged in nature. It's not the only path to

00:15:52.440 the truth, but it's like a legitimate one. Yeah. Likewise, I think that, um, for adults, man,

00:15:59.860 you know, you're talking about like an audience of men in particular, I think that there are things

00:16:02.980 around self-sufficiency, um, that can be gotten from, from engaging with nature. Cause it's,

00:16:11.020 it's a proving ground. You know what I mean? It's, it's kind of like the ultimate proving ground.

00:16:14.780 There's things around camaraderie, right? Some of the best times I have with friends, like

00:16:18.380 some of the best friends I have are people that I've been through that with. Right. You hear people

00:16:23.860 talk about, and I'm not even trying to conflate the two at all, but you hear people talk about like a

00:16:27.580 sense of camaraderie from being in the military, which I haven't done, but I know it's like a thing

00:16:31.660 people often bring up. Like when you go through that set of experiences with people, it doesn't,

00:16:36.800 you know, people that have done that tell me you can't match that. That doesn't, there's no

00:16:41.060 equivalent, right? From my own world, I'll say like, you know, spending a week or two out in a

00:16:46.160 wilderness setting with some people working to solve problems. Um, you can't match it. Right.

00:16:52.380 From, from anything that's been in my experience, I think that the best way to go engage is like

00:16:58.300 whatever you're doing, like whatever you're doing, just try to up it and try to do things that make

00:17:04.680 you afraid and do things that down. Uh, I always have things on the horizon. Like I can't, I can't get

00:17:13.340 comfortable in life without knowing that I have something coming up, some like wilderness type

00:17:21.860 adventure coming up that, that's, that I'm a little nervous about. Yeah. Like a little nervous

00:17:28.160 about pulling it off a little nervous, but what it's going to be like, like I have to have, uh,

00:17:33.280 dragons to slay, you know? And I don't, and I, and I always hesitate when we talk about nature and

00:17:39.640 talk about the natural world to get into this kind of vocabulary of like slaying it, conquering it,

00:17:43.880 being versus it. Like, I don't look at it that way. It's like your hand in hand with it, right?

00:17:47.120 Like it's not adversarial. But when I say drag and slam, I mean like maybe more internal,

00:17:52.000 you know, it's just like, I like being tested in that way. Um, I drew, for instance, this year,

00:17:58.100 uh, I drew a mountain goat tag. Um, very, it's very limited draw. You have a small resource. A lot

00:18:04.240 of people want to get at it. They got to allocate checks to a lottery system. I first applied for

00:18:08.380 this permit in 1998. Hmm. Finally drew it now. Right. Geez, man. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever the hell that is.

00:18:14.120 20, 20, 20 plus years. Yeah. Well, application process is in, and as people that hang out

00:18:20.260 mountains, country might know, like mountain goats live in the highest nastiest stuff, right?

00:18:25.100 You're going, which is insane what those things can do. Like you look at them and they're hanging

00:18:28.400 on the type of edge of a cliff. I'm like, how is that even physically possible? No, they do stuff

00:18:34.400 you can't do. I mean, their survival strategy is like with predators, I'll just go to somewhere

00:18:38.720 that you'll never go. Right. Right. I'll walk over somewhere that you'll never go.

00:18:43.320 Um, and so like, I have that to look forward to. I did it now, you know, and it was as tough

00:18:49.200 as I thought it would be, but like, I had that to look forward to. And I get that from

00:18:53.860 wilderness experiences. Um, and, and I have to have it in my life. I have to have that

00:19:00.560 sense of challenge. It's like, it's like a balance to the, it's a balance to being home.

00:19:05.780 Do you feel like those types of things, I can relate to that to a degree, not, not to the

00:19:09.980 degree, I think you're talking about are in the same vein, but do you think those types

00:19:13.660 of challenges keep you sharp? And if that's the case, what do you do to prepare for these

00:19:20.480 things? Or is it that your, your previous experience is what's preparing you for your

00:19:25.840 next experience?

00:19:26.860 In my case, at this point in my life, it's previous experience and constant practice.

00:19:37.760 Like, but you have to understand how peculiar, just because of professional circumstances,

00:19:43.860 sort of like how peculiar my existence might be where, um, I don't need to like necessarily

00:19:49.920 train to get in shape for, for instance, for mountain hunting, you know?

00:19:55.060 Right. Because, because you're there, you're always there.

00:19:57.440 Yeah. Like doing it a lot. Right. So you're, you're just engaged with it. I used to have

00:20:02.100 things. Um, I used to have experiences coming up where I didn't need to go out and like learn

00:20:08.240 a lot. So that I felt like I was going to be at somewhat have some chance of being successful.

00:20:12.280 But now I have such kind of a, um, like a rich sort of Rolodex, you know, of, of people

00:20:19.840 that I know that we laugh a little bit about it because, uh, you know, friends, me and

00:20:25.920 my, me and guys that work with and friends will go hunt a lot of new places. How do you

00:20:30.660 pull that off? You know, how do you ever figure it out? It's like, to be honest with you, dude,

00:20:33.300 it's like, what works for me, isn't really available for you. Like I have very distinct

00:20:38.880 advantages. We're like, no matter where you're talking about, like we're one or two phone calls

00:20:43.500 away from someone that knows something really well. Um, and I try not to like gloss that over,

00:20:48.560 right? That's a major thing, man. I try to be upfront. I try to be upfront about the fact

00:20:52.600 like I have that luxury at one point in time. I did. At one point in time, we went into stuff.

00:20:57.220 We went into situations. We had no idea what we're getting. I remember the first time me

00:21:01.460 and my brothers, like for instance, went on a, you know, a, a, a 10 day doll sheep hunt

00:21:06.420 in Alaska. We never even saw, we didn't see, no, we saw one sheep a few miles away. Never

00:21:11.460 saw it, you know, saw one ram close to the end, ran out of food, didn't, couldn't get where

00:21:16.320 we thought we were going to get to. Everything was miserable, complete failure. Got our asses

00:21:21.460 totally kicked. Right. I've been through that now. Um, maybe it's because what I know or 1.00

00:21:28.360 who I know now I would be like, I would make a couple of phone calls and I would find someone

00:21:31.840 that would say, don't do that. Yeah. Here, go right here. Do this. I'm in the same boat.

00:21:37.340 Yeah. You know, not to the degree of course that you are, but people say, well, how do

00:21:43.060 I get into hunting? Cause actually hunting is relatively new for me. My first hunt was

00:21:46.920 with my friend, Colin Cottrell. He invited me, uh, to hunt deer with him in Texas, uh, in

00:21:52.800 2017. And I said, I, I don't know how to hunt. He's like, I know that's why I'm inviting

00:21:57.700 you. And, and he's like, bring your bow. And I'm like, I don't have a bow. He's like, yeah,

00:22:01.400 go buy one. And then he's like, we're going to do a bow hunt and a rifle hunt. I'm like,

00:22:04.860 I don't have a rifle to hunt with. He's like, yeah, go buy one. And that was my introduction.

00:22:09.880 I'm really grateful that he introduced me to hunting. But then I have these opportunities

00:22:14.320 where people will say, Hey, I know you and your son are into hunting, come duck hunting

00:22:17.620 or come hunt our property here. And it's, it's nice. It, like you said, it's a nice luxury,

00:22:22.620 but a lot of guys don't, don't have the same luxury of getting these invites or having the

00:22:26.780 Rolodex. Like you said, you do. Yeah. And, and, and I think what, what gives me, uh,

00:22:32.200 the runway to be able to bring this up without sounding like a total knucklehead is it, or

00:22:38.180 without sounding like completely privileged is that for many, many years we hacked it

00:22:43.260 out. Yeah. And that kind of like hacking it out a little bit, I think is what is sort

00:22:48.680 of like that mentality of being able to hack it out and just learn through trial and error

00:22:53.100 and experimentation. It's kind of like largely those findings and those lessons are more likely

00:22:59.460 to find their way into a book project like this than the everything going smooth kind

00:23:04.700 of stuff. Um, well, you know, for instance, we grew up in the, in Michigan, right. And

00:23:11.960 grew up raised by a hunter hunting that stuff. But we just one day up and me and my older brother,

00:23:16.080 one of them, we just moved out last, man. We didn't talk to anybody. We just figured stuff

00:23:21.720 out. Like every inch of ground we got, like we got by like duking it out, you know what I mean?

00:23:27.140 We're within elements. So, um, I've been through it. Like I get it. And I think that a lot of that

00:23:34.580 stuff, you know, to, to get back onto the subject of putting this book together, a lot, there's a lot

00:23:41.120 of stuff in here that I wish someone would have told me back then, to be honest with you, just about

00:23:45.700 just how to get by, you know, like what you actually need, what you don't need, like a lot of like

00:23:51.560 hard earned lessons. And then later, as I came to be, um, in a situation where I was able to spend

00:23:57.160 time with like people who are just extremely talented and very experienced, right. You have,

00:24:03.260 by that point, you have kind of a foundation of, you start to learn like what works for you and how

00:24:07.540 to, how to go about your business in the woods. And then you meet people who are, um, who came in a

00:24:13.240 completely different lane than you did. Right. Like whatever you had, uh, I had like a Michigan,

00:24:19.260 Montana path, you know, but then you spend someone who's got whatever, um, a life built out of the

00:24:26.940 same type of adventures down in the desert Southwest. Right. And they, they parallel path and now they

00:24:33.120 get to like a position of excellence. When you're able to hang on that person, you gain so much more

00:24:38.460 from that coming from having already developed the sense to yourself of like what works. And that's

00:24:43.640 when you start, I think getting into a level of, um, you know, where you can claim a level of broad

00:24:49.420 expertise is when you've learned enough to know how to translate what you're seeing other people do.

00:24:54.560 Likewise, just to spend time in South America, um, on a few trips, I've been down there on river trips

00:24:59.580 with Amerindians, right? Like I know enough to get what they're doing, to see how they're doing and

00:25:05.940 understand why they're doing what they do. And, and man, is that illuminating, right? These are

00:25:11.800 people that blow you away in the woods, you know, enough to make it more, more meaningful and

00:25:17.280 significant to you. It sounds like I know enough to get it. Like I know enough to like piece together

00:25:22.160 what they're doing to have a frame of reference to understand how they go about why they go about

00:25:26.500 it. Right. Do you ever, I was going to say, let me offer you a quick for instance there. Okay. Yeah,

00:25:32.460 sure. These guys like to, um, they often hunt at night down in, in, in, uh, you know, any,

00:25:42.680 all in a lot of areas in the Amazons coming on at night with light. Right. Um, they're hunting 0.98

00:25:46.760 these nocturnal animals. Right. You might notice like a peculiarity about the timing that they'd like

00:25:52.520 to go out at night, like very specific about when to go at night. It's like dark 12 hours a day.

00:25:56.740 Cause near the equator, but, uh, but they want to go at some time. Right. You're like,

00:26:01.600 why don't I just go now? I just got dark. And then, and hanging out and realize like, Oh,

00:26:05.940 they don't go till the moon sets, you know? And like when the moon sets, it's like a extra level

00:26:13.560 of darkness and they're hunting these nocturnal creatures. They must have determined are

00:26:17.360 uncomfortable and bright moonlight. Like these nocturnal creatures time their time being out

00:26:22.340 to the darkest time of night. So you start to kind of get a, you know, you get a sense of like,

00:26:27.800 you know, through, through other pursuits, you get a sense of these sorts of things, right?

00:26:32.360 What the sun does, what the moon does, seasonality. And then you watch people do things and you're

00:26:37.280 able to sort of get like, Oh yeah, like make connections that they might not, that to them

00:26:41.560 is just very matter of, you know, it's matter of course to them. And if you just came into it blindly,

00:26:47.360 you would just think that there's sort of a willy nilliness to it.

00:26:49.740 Well, I can tell you understand, you know? Yeah. And I can tell you from,

00:26:55.020 from the perspective of, we'll just call it ignorance because I wasn't introduced to this

00:26:58.980 world. You know, I look at social media, for example, and I see you and other people going

00:27:03.360 out and having hunting or fishing success. And I think, Oh, well, you know, they know the right

00:27:08.440 spots or they just got lucky or whatever, you know, you attach all these meanings to it. And then

00:27:12.780 you start to immerse yourself even to a small degree. And you realize, Oh, it's not like they just went

00:27:18.140 out and like in the afternoon to this place and grabbed a gun and went and shot a deer.

00:27:23.520 They, they, they know the patterns there. They're putting food plots out there. They're seeing what,

00:27:29.820 when they're moving and when they're not, they're looking at the, where the moon is at certain times

00:27:35.760 throughout the month. And then you realize there's this whole other realm that you didn't even know

00:27:41.420 existed. And how could you know, because you've never seen it or been exposed to it in the past.

00:27:45.920 Yeah. You got it. You got to know enough to know what you're looking at, you know?

00:27:48.860 Yeah. Well, and I think too, it's also, it's also taught generationally, which is what I

00:27:54.180 appreciate about you because I know family's important to you and how important it is to

00:27:58.600 be able to pass this knowledge down to, do you have one child or do you have children? I can't

00:28:04.000 remember.

00:28:04.720 No, I have three. So I have three. Okay.

00:28:07.340 Five. Well, my, my daughter will be eight in a couple of days here. And then I have a 10 year

00:28:11.760 old boy. Yeah. So we're, we're in it, man. You know, are, are, are, are your kids fully

00:28:19.260 on board the way you are or is it different? Cause I know my, my oldest is on board. He's

00:28:25.260 the one prodding me. My second is like, I don't want to do that. Dark and cold. And I

00:28:28.900 don't want to do that. He just wants to build Legos and robots, you know? So there, we have

00:28:32.720 that we have a, there's a, there's a, there's a gradient, right? My older boy, um, is, you

00:28:40.600 know, he's the oldest. So I had a very, like very outsized, this is just my pop psychology,

00:28:48.240 right? Guesswork. Like I had a very outsized impression on him when he was young because

00:28:53.660 he didn't have siblings. He's the oldest, right? Sure. He's imprinted on me very, very heavily,

00:28:58.020 man. Um, and he's gung ho. Right. And then, uh, my daughter's like very kind of like in

00:29:05.300 the middle, my young boy, he's like, I don't influence him to the degree that his siblings

00:29:10.460 do. Like he looks to his siblings for guidance and leadership in some way, like, which is pretty

00:29:16.540 natural. I was the youngest, you know? Uh, so it's a little bit different, but one thing

00:29:22.220 that I do do, like, like I kind of shocked cause I would be like, in my mind, I'd be like,

00:29:25.540 I presented the exact same set of influences here and then wound up with these three sort

00:29:31.040 of different results. Right. But you can't untangle it like that. Right. There's just

00:29:35.760 two, there's just like the differences of people, like just some weird genetic stuff.

00:29:39.720 We'll never understand. Yeah. And they have a say in the matter, right? Yeah. Yeah. And

00:29:43.260 there's like the influences of just like personality things that you don't get and the influences

00:29:47.400 of birth order and everything else. But what I will do, and I talked about this a great deal,

00:29:53.540 man. Um, I don't leave it all up to them the same way that, that the same way that, you

00:30:01.280 know, they don't go into the pantry at dinnertime and serve themselves what they think would be

00:30:07.980 an appropriate dinner. Right. You're going to come in and like, you're going to come in

00:30:11.840 there and exert some influence about what you think based on the best understanding that

00:30:18.880 you have would be a reasonable diet to pursue like bedtime. Uh, we have a pretty, you know,

00:30:27.340 strict sense of like how much sleep they should get. It's not up to them to determine how much

00:30:32.460 sleep they should get. We're like exerting influence all the time. Likewise. Uh, I don't

00:30:37.360 always ask if, if everybody wants to go ice fishing, I don't always ask if everybody wants to go out

00:30:43.520 and chip some holes through the ice to pull some muskrat traps. Like it's some stuff we're just 0.99

00:30:48.520 doing, you know? And the thing that I noticed is with those sets of experiences, if me and my wife

00:30:54.460 say, Hey, we're camping this weekend and they're bent out of shape because they had intention to play

00:30:58.100 with their friend there. They're going to sleep over their friend's house this weekend. Um, and we're

00:31:01.660 like, Nope, you're not. We're camping this weekend. They always come away from the camping trip,

00:31:05.660 like energized. Oh, of course. Like best, you know, some of the best like kids you've seen

00:31:13.460 coming off that. But, but then you go the next weekend, we're gonna go camping. Oh, I don't want

00:31:19.480 to go. It's like, but you just told me it was the funnest thing you ever did. But like, and so I'm,

00:31:25.420 I'm doing that. And I'm also trying to, at the same time, I'm always trying to be like, I don't

00:31:30.380 want to burn them out. I'm kind of blown away that my dad, like of the two brothers I was raised up

00:31:35.340 with in, in, in our house, I'm kind of blown away that he didn't burn us. In fact, quite the

00:31:40.540 opposite. Like, you know, we're all like very committed outdoorsmen, but that was a lot of

00:31:45.560 crying, man. A lot of being cold, frozen fingers, right? Seasick, whatever. A lot of discomfort,

00:31:52.780 a lot of crying. He made a real, it paid off for him in the end, but he made a big gamble,

00:31:59.660 a big gamble. And I don't gamble as aggressively as he does. Uh, I'm aggressive,

00:32:05.100 but I'm not that aggressive because I don't want to wind up. I don't want it to backfire.

00:32:10.700 Man. Let me hit the, uh, the pause button, the timeout button on this conversation. Just very,

00:32:13.980 very quickly. We'll get right back into it. Now, obviously, you know, I've got a beard and

00:32:18.620 obviously, you know, it's, it's a glorious beard and not surprisingly, I get a lot of questions about

00:32:23.980 how I maintain such a glorious beard guys. The answer is simple as with anything else. I take care

00:32:29.740 of it. That's it. And because I take care of it. And also I got to admit, because I'm a bit of a

00:32:34.460 control freak, I had to ensure that I take care of my beard my way. And that's why I'm very, very

00:32:40.780 excited to tell you about my partnership with origin, Maine, to bring a 100% sourced and made

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00:33:16.060 That's it. Originbeardoil.com. All I need you to do is sign up for the notifications. And if you do,

00:33:22.380 we're going to release it to you first. Then if we have any left, we're going to release it to the rest

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00:33:36.860 desire to grow a beard and look good and feel good in the process, head to originbeardoil.com

00:33:43.820 originbeardoil.com. You can do that after the conversation, because for now I'm going to get back

00:33:49.420 to it with Steven. Yeah. You don't want, and you don't want resentment. You want them to enjoy it,

00:33:54.460 but I'm always amazed at, at human beings ability to forget how miserable things are.

00:34:01.260 You know, I was talking with my, my second son about this hunt. We just got done with

00:34:05.340 in Pennsylvania and my oldest son just shot his very first deer, which is a really cool experience.

00:34:10.700 And my second son was in the blind with me. My, my, my oldest son was sitting about 60 yards away in a

00:34:18.620 tree stand by himself doing his thing. And my second son was, it's cold. I'm bored. I don't like this.

00:34:25.980 And we talk about it, what, five, six, seven days later. And he's like, that was awesome. Remember

00:34:31.700 this. And remember that in my mind, I'm like, you complained the whole time, but he took something

00:34:36.320 out of it. There was something that, that he either forgot or reframed in his mind that he

00:34:41.760 actually really enjoyed the time we got to sit in the cold blind. Oh, my, my brother went a hike

00:34:49.040 with my daughter recently and somehow the subject came up with your five favorite things to do.

00:34:55.440 And, um, he came to me and you know, what, I don't know what the hell was rock climbing or something,

00:34:59.920 but I was shocked to hear that in her telling to him, hunting and fishing made top five.

00:35:06.000 Yeah, man. It's funny how it works. And I think it's, you know, especially with our kids is I just

00:35:13.520 think, you know, what we're doing maybe matters less than the fact that they're around and they're

00:35:19.360 experiencing and we're doing it together and we're just having a good time being, being present with

00:35:24.720 each other. Yes. You know, that's a good point, man. Earlier, remember I was saying, I was saying

00:35:30.080 something facts of like, there's multiple paths to the truth, right? Like, like, you know, I have

00:35:36.000 what I'm into. Um, I would never have the like sort of the audacity to suggest that I'm on to

00:35:43.360 something that other people aren't on to that are into organized sports. What I think it is, is like,

00:35:48.720 I think about parenting and parents is like, it doesn't last forever. We have a 10 year old and we're

00:35:56.160 still in it. We're still in it where kids are, your kids are looking to you to see what's cool.

00:36:02.000 They're looking to you to see, right? Later the day, you might get a situation to go the

00:36:05.680 other direction, but right now we still have that luxury, right? I think that like, I don't think

00:36:10.400 it's selfish. If, if you're a dad, you're a parent and there's things you like to do and that you have

00:36:17.840 an infectious enthusiasm for it. Okay. It's the thing that means something to you. You see value

00:36:23.840 in it. You like to do it. It is not selfish. In my view, to have that be part of your kids lives

00:36:31.680 because they need to see what it's like for someone to be into something. Hmm. Yeah. Good. I mean,

00:36:38.160 it's like, it doesn't matter if it's, if it's baseball, that's great, dude. Like, that's not for

00:36:43.040 me, but like, I want my kids to see things that I want them to go out and see their parents engaging

00:36:49.120 in stuff that they're deeply passionate about. They have a love for the skillset. Like there's a,

00:36:54.880 there's a right way and a wrong way to do it. You try to pursue the right way. You learn from mistakes,

00:37:00.480 like wherever you can, wherever that arena exists, take them to the arena. Yeah.

00:37:06.320 Yeah. You know, like it doesn't like, for me, this is what like, this works for me. Right. Um,

00:37:13.200 and I, yeah, I just feel like I was trying to make that point. So I, I, I would hate someone to think

00:37:19.360 that I was, uh, um, somehow thought that like what I was gonna do is somehow better than some other

00:37:26.580 alternate reality. Right. Yeah. I think a lot of people will paint it like, and I've been guilty of

00:37:32.200 that too, where I share something that works and maybe I painted it in a light where I'm like,

00:37:35.920 you should all do this because it works for me. And I realized that's not, I mean, there's elements

00:37:40.800 of it that I think broadly apply, you know, but it doesn't have to be that specific thing and

00:37:46.400 whatever your thing is, you know, the other cool thing that you've created for yourself,

00:37:49.360 from my perspective is that there's a lot of congruency between not only what you love to do,

00:37:54.480 what you're passionate about, but you've also created a living, right? A career out of doing it.

00:38:00.880 And you're also bringing up your children to enjoy it too. And so there's a lot of crossover

00:38:05.360 which makes things, I don't know if it's efficiency. I don't think I'd call it efficiency

00:38:09.920 because I don't think it's gamed like that, but, um, but the congruency I think is, is what's

00:38:15.440 valuable from my perspective. It allows a lot of focus. Um, you know, it's funny. We were on to,

00:38:22.320 we were on to the idea when I say we have to talk about two older brothers, uh, who I remain close

00:38:30.800 with, but we were on to an idea very early. It kind of surprises me. Now we were on to this idea

00:38:37.440 that you should like pursue a career that like dovetailed really well with your interests.

00:38:42.720 And our old man, he, he was an insurance man. He was a, he, you know, like a, like he had a

00:38:50.560 little small town insurance agency. Right. Um, but he liked to engage with people. So he liked to

00:38:58.000 interact and engage with people. He's a social guy. He felt that he had dovetailed his career

00:39:04.800 with his passion. He's like a people person. He liked to meet new people. So he felt that he embodied it.

00:39:09.840 We took it to like a more extreme version, but he would like, I remember very few things where he,

00:39:15.760 not very few, there were very few like pieces of advice he would like consistently stick with

00:39:20.160 and consistently stick with. And he had some lines. He's like, you're going to spend a third

00:39:23.520 of your life working on, you have to find something you enjoy. And that when you, when you talk about

00:39:32.480 people like being pressured to go to Ivy league schools, being pressured to go to med school,

00:39:36.560 the pressure, if there was some level of parental pressure coming down, it was not tied to

00:39:44.240 economics. It was not tied to vanity and prestige. It was tied to like, you have to do something you

00:39:51.040 enjoy. Um, and so I had license to pursue, um, not, not that you don't, not that you need it from your

00:40:00.720 parents, but I had license to pursue like a thing that a lot of people, a lot of parents might've

00:40:05.280 thought was like a pipe dream. Right. I remember not for long before my dad died. I published it.

00:40:11.680 I was in my twenties. I'd gone to grad school. I was late twenties. Probably

00:40:15.600 I'd published a couple pieces in field and stream. And my old man couldn't go into a sporting goods store

00:40:22.000 without showing someone at the counter. That's awesome. Yeah. That's awesome.

00:40:30.320 A 1500, you know, some article, you got 1500 bucks for it. It took you like a month to write,

00:40:34.880 but still man, he'd come in and be like right here, you know, and that's like kind of like a

00:40:39.120 certain validation. And when we were little, the only thing we knew is funny. The only thing we knew is

00:40:43.520 that you would be a, um, we somehow knew about game wardens, like you'd be a game warden or you'd be

00:40:49.920 like a wildlife biologist. And it's funny that, you know, my brothers became wildlife biologist

00:40:54.720 and to some extent ecologist. Um, and then I later kind of picked up on the idea that there was such

00:40:59.760 thing as an outdoor writer and I was off to the races. Was that, was that your, when you start,

00:41:06.160 when you graduated, you moved out, you said you went to, to, uh, to some college. Was it always the

00:41:12.400 idea to become a journalist and outdoor journalist? I mean, I know that's your background. What, what,

00:41:17.760 what did you see as being the path for you? I was focused on that, but I was also focused on,

00:41:23.760 I was very, I really liked to trap the fur trapping. And, um, and, and at that time,

00:41:29.280 fur prices were pretty good. Not, not like they had been in the late seventies and early eighties,

00:41:33.200 but in trailing into the nineties, there was, um, you know, decent fur prices. So my first two years

00:41:40.000 of college, I went to community college and I took all night classes. I didn't go down to six,

00:41:44.000 man. And I was like, I had always been in school and I always wished I could just trap full time.

00:41:49.120 And so getting out of high school, I realized I finally had my chance. If I went to community

00:41:53.520 college for two years and took night classes, I could spend two years and just trap all day,

00:41:59.120 dawn to dusk, and then go to class at night. But in that, and I went in that community college

00:42:04.720 experience, I kind of like fell in love with education. Then I went up to Michigan's upper peninsula

00:42:10.320 to go to school just cause my buddies were up there in air hunting and fishing all the time.

00:42:13.920 And I was jealous, trapped up there a little bit. And then I knew that I wanted to get like a writing,

00:42:20.400 you know, writing, whatever they call it in undergrad school. It's also, you're all over

00:42:24.800 the place. You're taking all the requirements, but you had some room to like pick your whatever

00:42:28.960 focus or major or something. And I knew I wanted to be a writer. So then I transferred to yet another

00:42:33.600 school and then I got serious and went like, and did a very specifically focused graduate program.

00:42:39.280 Um, and there, and that's when I finally learned what I was doing.

00:42:43.120 And how did you then begin to pivot into, I don't, I don't actually know. So this would be good because

00:42:48.480 I think I can't remember when your first Netflix opportunity presented itself, but I'm sure there's

00:42:54.640 a lot of gap between writing and now I'm documenting these hunts and these outdoor expeditions.

00:43:01.600 Yeah. Like how did that flow? It kind of went, yeah, right.

00:43:04.320 Yeah. When you're, you know, when you're in graduate school as a writer, you have to do

00:43:08.240 like a thesis, but it's just a body of written work. So as I was coming out of graduate school,

00:43:12.880 I was actually selling, I was selling off my thesis cause my like thesis, which is just the,

00:43:18.880 which is what they call it. Right. My thesis was basically a collection of things that I intended

00:43:22.320 to be like outdoor writing pieces, journalism pieces, whatever, just hunting and fishing stuff.

00:43:26.400 Right. Yeah. Travel, hunting, fishing, food. Um, I was writing all that stuff in school and then I

00:43:31.440 started to sell it. Hmm. So started to do a bunch of work for outside magazine. Uh,

00:43:37.840 there's this kind of like interesting flow to all this. Right. So I was doing pieces for outside

00:43:42.240 magazine and at the time, like they weren't let, no one was writing about this stuff. Like

00:43:47.200 I was kind of like the guy that was allowed to write about this stuff and outside.

00:43:50.720 Um, and I had a literary agent find my working outside. He got home. He's like,

00:43:57.200 you know, you need to do a book. You need to like, take this stuff you're doing and like

00:44:00.640 do a book. So he went, I did a book, not a book, a book proposal. Sure. Sold the book.

00:44:07.200 Soon as I sold the book, I like signed a development deal in TV. Right. And then that led through this

00:44:14.560 like cascade of events and came out and did a show for the eight episode show for travel

00:44:20.480 channel, which was a disaster. Um, we were still filming and we knew we weren't going to make

00:44:25.920 anymore. Like if we were filming it so fast that like they premiered episode one, which bombed

00:44:32.400 while we were filming episode eight, but they ran through all eight episodes, kind of like the

00:44:36.560 best and worst thing that ever happened to me. What was the, uh, what was, what was just a

00:44:41.520 synopsis of the disaster? What was the problem there? It was a feathered fish, man. It didn't know what it

00:44:47.840 was. It was like a hunting and fishing show that had all this other stuff thrown in. Um,

00:44:56.000 you know, it was like the, it was just, it was such,

00:45:02.080 I didn't exert like a strong level of influence on it. It was just like, it was all over the place.

00:45:06.560 It wouldn't have meant anything. It didn't mean enough to anybody. I think the way I look at it,

00:45:11.360 I expressed this to someone recently, like there's like a thing with quail hunting, you know,

00:45:14.960 that people say like when you jump a covey of quail, right? That, that if you just shoot at the

00:45:20.320 flock, just like blast into the flock, you won't get one. You won't hit anything. You pick a quail

00:45:26.960 though and shoot at him, you get two, right? The show is just trying to be everything for everybody.

00:45:32.480 Right. Right. And sometimes we think, oh, this is for the female audience. This part is for the die 1.00

00:45:39.760 hard outdoors. And then this parts for like the, you know, the restaurant hipster who likes interesting

00:45:46.480 food items. It's just, it's just, it was a mess. So I get it. I mean, you're casting this wide neck.

00:45:51.840 Cause I think when, anytime you start a venture, that's your natural inclination is like, I'm going

00:45:56.240 to give myself the broadest opportunity. Right. And then you realize that's the counterintuitive

00:46:01.680 thing is that, yeah, it's broad, but nobody cares because it's not hyper specific enough.

00:46:07.680 Exactly. Right. You're just throwing scraps, man. You're throwing scraps.

00:46:12.640 Yeah. But, but it came out of it. Like there's these guys that I worked with on that show and

00:46:16.400 these guys worked for 0.0, you know, it always most famously did the Bourdain show. So parts unknown,

00:46:23.440 no reservations. They'd like to develop, they created that show. Um, and I was working with those same

00:46:28.080 people that were some of the same people that worked on that show. And we came out of that and we're

00:46:32.960 like, dude, we want to do something like we saw that we could go and do a show that smaller budget,

00:46:40.560 smaller audience, but we can do a show that was radically stripped down, very clean, very focused.

00:46:48.560 Right. It'd be like a hunting and fishing show infused with a very strong wild foods sensibility.

00:46:57.360 And it would be clean. It's like, what's the sort of, uh, what's the plot? Do you want to go find

00:47:03.520 something? You want to go on an adventure and get something? The plot is, can you get it? And

00:47:08.640 let, let everything else fall in place behind that. That's the story, right? The pursuit,

00:47:13.760 the quest is the story. And we're like, we should just make something hyper clean.

00:47:17.680 And that's how we, and one day I was like, came up with the name meat eater, which had no bearing

00:47:24.080 on the content, but that became the show. And now at this point we've made, I don't know, 150 of these

00:47:30.320 things. Right. It's, uh, yeah, it's, it's always important for me to look at that backstory because,

00:47:37.200 you know, sometimes it's easy for us when we see somebody like yourself or any other successful

00:47:42.080 person I've had on the podcast to say, you know, this person just got lucky or, you know,

00:47:46.560 they, they, they just fell into it or the pieces came together or we jumped from A to Z and we don't

00:47:51.680 ever see all the other stops and pitfalls and ups and downs in between. And I think it's really

00:47:56.240 important that we make those realistic connections that we experience in our own lives.

00:48:01.440 Yeah. I have gotten lucky. Let me tell you a luck story. Uh, I was, when I first started writing for

00:48:08.880 outside in 2000, um, it was a, you know, it was a groundbreaking publication, man. Like as a

00:48:16.000 grad student, like people in that world, literally like you wanted to write at that

00:48:20.960 magazine. Hmm. Really? Yeah. People, it was like, you, you go, you open up all these anthologies,

00:48:27.840 you know, best American travel writing best America. It's like outside, outside, outside.

00:48:32.640 They dominated that stuff. Right. They had phenomenal writers. They were tearing it up back then.

00:48:38.800 Everybody wanted to write for outside. I, there's a writer named Ian Frazier. His kind

00:48:44.720 of masterpiece is his book. Great planes, but he had, had been a New Yorker, did stuff for outside,

00:48:50.480 um, was highly in demand as a magazine writer back then. He wanted to go on a deer hunt.

00:48:57.120 He'd written all about the West and hadn't been hunting through friends. Like someone's like, 0.62

00:49:01.520 you know, you should take Ian Frazier. Now I worship the dude as a writer,

00:49:06.000 take him on a deer hunt. So we went down and did a canoe trip. He got a deer. Okay.

00:49:11.200 We come out of that experience. He says, let me see some of your work.

00:49:17.040 Okay. He then takes my work and goes to his editor outside who calls me and buys a piece from me.

00:49:26.560 I could have sent that same article a hundred times easily to 400 market street,

00:49:33.360 whatever the hell they are in Santa Fe and never gotten a call.

00:49:38.000 Right. Of course it would have been thrown in the pile with everything else.

00:49:40.640 I took a dude deer hunting. He felt indebted to me and wanted to return the favor. He gave me

00:49:46.080 biggest break of my career. Um, you can look and be like, oh, that's pretty lucky. And it was pointed

00:49:51.200 out to me by a lot of friends kind of like, Oh, it must be nice. You know, it was nice at the same

00:49:55.840 time. Uh, I was ready and waiting, man. You know, I don't think that they were going to publish

00:50:00.800 something that was no good. And I was ready and waiting to do more. Um, but I think that anytime

00:50:04.800 you look at someone's, you know, you look at someone's career, it's full of like a lot of hard

00:50:10.560 work, but inevitably like some luck, man, like being in the right place at the right time. Um,

00:50:15.680 I don't mind admitting it. I used to be a little more embarrassed about it than I am now.

00:50:19.760 You know, you know, you want to be like, Oh yeah, I'm from the school of hard knocks, you know?

00:50:24.880 And in some respects I am, I'm also from the school of just

00:50:30.000 getting a break, having someone, having someone do me, do me a solid, you know?

00:50:34.160 Yeah. I think this is, uh, I don't want to put words in your mouth here, but, uh, maybe you can

00:50:38.480 tell me if I'm right or wrong, but this is that concept of, uh, what do you call it? Um,

00:50:42.080 venison diplomacy, venison diplomacy. Is that what we're talking about right here? It's venison

00:50:47.360 diplomacy with this guy that, uh, gave you a shot because he was able to harvest his first year with

00:50:51.760 you. I hadn't. Yeah. I like, I like venison diplomacy, but I hadn't put it in that way,

00:50:57.360 but yeah, that would be a, that would be, I need to add that. If I ever do a book on venison diplomacy,

00:51:01.520 I need to add that chapter. I'm telling you, man, there's just something special about sitting

00:51:06.560 around, uh, Jack and jaw with the guys telling stories of what went right and what

00:51:11.920 didn't over an animal that, you know, you just killed and broke down and brought to the,

00:51:16.400 brought to the tribe. It's something very powerful that I've only been able to experience relatively

00:51:20.960 recently. Yeah. It's something. And you know, my dad was into it. It's kind of funny because

00:51:26.880 he was into, uh, him and his, his crew of guys were

00:51:32.320 very, like they had this real celebratory relationship with, with game. They got, you know,

00:51:37.120 I remember where they do like salmon boils and fish fries. Right. And, um, they had that,

00:51:41.600 uh, we'd like to think now that not that we invented, you just mentioned like a,

00:51:46.080 like a tribe reference, right? This is like an ancient thing, but, um, they had that,

00:51:52.320 like the people he hung out with, man, they had that sense that like, this stuff is fun. It's cool.

00:51:57.600 It's reason to celebrate. And that was like a kind of wild game relationship that I was brought up and

00:52:03.040 still had a day. I remember in school, you know, living away at college and we would shoot deer and

00:52:08.000 man. And, uh, we had just like, you know, our house, one of the houses we lived in,

00:52:12.800 it was so bad. We like caulked the bathtub with roofing tar, you know, people take a shower and

00:52:16.880 like water come down through the living room. Right. Just horrible place. Like the, the, the,

00:52:21.840 one of the rooms in the house was literally falling away from the house where you could pass an electrical

00:52:26.240 cord out the crack in the wall. If you wanted to plug something in outside, we get to cook and deer

00:52:31.360 meat, you know, and people flock to our house, man, that was a riot. You know, they loved it.

00:52:36.240 Um, and so I've always had that, like that little sense of like, just how much fun comes out of

00:52:42.320 stuff, you know, and how much fun comes out of discomfort too. You know, do you think that's,

00:52:47.760 uh, yeah, that's true. Do you think that's, um, that's like hardwired into our DNA as human beings

00:52:54.560 that, that we bond together over hardship and that we, we break bread so to speak in order to bond us

00:53:01.520 closer together. Like what is your thought process behind that?

00:53:03.680 You, you can see where, well, let me put it this way. Imagine if the opposite was true.

00:53:10.720 That when you put a group of people in a situation and things get testy, things get hard that they

00:53:20.320 all go, right. What would that have done? What does that do for a group? You know?

00:53:24.640 Right.

00:53:25.200 Like you need to be, yeah. So, I mean, I think that like, just as humans, um, that there's some

00:53:32.160 sense of pulling in and grouping up and having one another's backs and times when things are a little

00:53:38.400 nasty, that makes a hell of a lot of sense to me because you're not gonna get anything done

00:53:45.040 in the opposite scenario. Yeah. Good point. 0.55

00:53:47.840 I think in some ways, I think in some ways it's like, I can leave experiences of mine, you know,

00:53:52.560 wilderness travel experiences of mine where when someone doesn't, isn't able to make that jump

00:53:58.960 to become a team member and pull their own weight, there is a very,

00:54:04.640 very, uh, there is a very certain tendency to, to ostracize that individual, man.

00:54:11.360 Of course.

00:54:11.840 It's like, it's deep. Do you know what I mean? It's like inexcusable.

00:54:16.320 I remember I was talking to a guy, a friend of a friend and he was talking about his fishing

00:54:22.160 camp where he goes to fish every year. And I remember him saying, this stuck, this always

00:54:25.600 stuck. So he probably didn't even think about it, but it always sticks to me. He was saying,

00:54:28.880 man, at that camp, you got to wait in line. If you want to wash a dish.

00:54:32.640 And I remember being like, that's like, that is a solid observation. You know what I mean? Like

00:54:39.600 that kind of like pulling your weight, man. Um, and that stuff brings that out, you know,

00:54:44.160 because things are a little bit harder, right? It's easy to pull your weight when everything's

00:54:48.320 easy. Yeah. Well, there's no way to pull when it's easy. That's yeah. Well, and you know, I think

00:54:54.640 too, we're, we're quite literally the descendants of people who learned to band together as team

00:55:00.320 members in order to quite literally survive some horrific and tragic circumstances and

00:55:06.880 situations that frankly, we don't have to deal with anymore. We have to choose to put ourselves

00:55:10.720 in those environments. Yeah. I, you know, I mentioned this in one of my books and I don't

00:55:15.120 even know if it's like, I don't know if it's true. I don't know if you can determine that it's true,

00:55:20.400 but it's, it's nice to think about is this, I mentioned where a linguist had hypothesized

00:55:27.760 that language was, you know, likely an offshoot of a need to coordinate hunting activities.

00:55:38.720 Now, how in the hell do you come to that? I don't know. They know their business. They're

00:55:42.480 a linguist. I'll have to trust them. Sure. Right or wrong. I like it. Right. Like,

00:55:46.000 I remember this quote from some politicians, you know, when they started realizing that Paul Revere

00:55:50.800 wasn't like an actual dude, some politicians saying like, I love Paul Revere, whether he wrote

00:55:55.760 or not, you know? So I love that idea, whether or not it makes any sense or not, but you know,

00:56:02.400 I read it and it stuck with me, you know? And like, like, you know, you got these people hanging out

00:56:06.400 and they want to be like, no, no, dude, I'm going to sneak around the other side of the rock.

00:56:11.200 Then you jump out. Like that's where language came from.

00:56:15.120 It reminds me of, uh, uh, uh, ghost in the darkness. You've seen that movie?

00:56:21.520 No, no. Oh yeah. It's about, and I don't know the, the, it's a, it's about a true story,

00:56:26.400 but this, uh, engineer I think is trying to build a bridge across a river in Africa. And there's the,

00:56:33.440 there's these couple of lions that are killing the workers, but it appears that they're just doing it

00:56:39.680 out of fun and, and, uh, just sport killing. And so it's, this guy's tasked with trying to

00:56:47.200 kill these lions so they can continue the progress on the bridge. And he's trying to rally all the

00:56:52.000 tribes that are constantly bickering and fighting with each other. And, uh, Michael Douglas comes in,

00:56:57.600 who's this, this hunter. And I think he's a real guy and he's, he hunts notoriously with this African 1.00

00:57:04.000 tribe, this primitive African tribe. And the way that they court, I think you'd really enjoy the show, 1.00

00:57:09.360 but the way that they coordinate hunting this lion down is very interesting. And it reminds me of

00:57:14.640 what you're talking about because you've got, uh, Michael Douglas, who's communicating with this

00:57:20.240 primitive tribe, but they're all working together to, uh, surround this lion so they can eventually

00:57:25.840 kill it. Anyways, you should check out the show and maybe even, I don't know how I don't know about

00:57:30.720 it. Oh yeah. It's one of my favorite movies. Yeah. You'd probably like the story behind it more so

00:57:35.040 than maybe even just the, uh, the Hollywood version of it. Yeah. I got it. Yeah. Yeah.

00:57:39.760 One thing I wanted to ask about, um, is earlier when we were talking, you talked about this

00:57:45.840 relationship that it's not adversarial. And I think in a lot of ways when we're out in nature

00:57:50.880 enjoying it, it's not, but I think there's a lot of people who look at, uh, you hunting or fishing

00:57:58.000 and, and quite frankly, killing an animal as a very adversarial thing. So how do you explain that

00:58:06.160 relationship of your, you're not adversarial, you're in it, you're part of it and an integral

00:58:11.680 part of it. In fact. Yeah. The, I think there's two, a couple of different ways you can look at

00:58:20.000 wildlife, um, and view wildlife in America or wherever you want to view it would be that

00:58:25.520 you have some people who are very focused on, um, individual animals, like the wellbeing of

00:58:33.040 individual animals by and large, that's sort of like the animal rights perspective would be

00:58:38.880 that, um, um, to diminish, uh, suffering of an individual animal, right. And to not cause suffering

00:58:47.360 or death to an, to, to think like this, they would regard like a sentient being. Right.

00:58:52.880 I think that, um, another way you view it is you view it in terms of the integrity of the ecosystem.

00:59:03.280 Okay. So that you have this thing with all these, like, as Aldo Leopold put it all like these,

00:59:10.480 these interconnected cogs and wheels of nature. Right. So my view, right or wrong, I would argue this,

00:59:17.280 right. But I could see someone I'd understand someone who didn't think this was correct.

00:59:23.280 My view is like, I'm interested in like, like deer nests, right? Like, like sort of like the,

00:59:29.200 the meta population of deer, the meta population of elk, the wellbeing of habitat, the ability for a

00:59:35.040 landscape to continue to function and put off resources in perpetuity. Right. If I don't see my actions,

00:59:47.680 being adversarial to that and instead see like the whole, the whole collection of everything that I do

00:59:56.400 being through conservation work on and on, how I spend my money, the systems I support,

01:00:01.760 the things I advocate for. If I look at the sum total of my influence, including any animals I might kill

01:00:07.600 as not only allowing that to continue, but helping and facilitating that continuing.

01:00:17.920 That's what matters to me.

01:00:19.120 Hmm. And, and I don't, the same way, um, I view,

01:00:28.400 imagine an apple tree and an apple.

01:00:31.520 Okay.

01:00:34.880 I have been, I was raised in, in, in, in this sensibility is reinforced over time. I'm interested

01:00:41.280 in the apple tree.

01:00:42.080 And I view the apple as being expendable. Hmm.

01:00:48.400 I can eat the apple, but if you lay a hand on that tree, I will kill you. 1.00

01:00:54.000 Right. Got it. 1.00

01:00:55.040 Um, and that's what I'm talking about when I talk about being hand in hand, you know,

01:01:03.280 and, and, and, and to me, it seems very simple and like very elegant and simple, but some people,

01:01:08.880 um, just, they, they look at and they just, um, they see nothing but hypocrisy between the things

01:01:16.480 that I might say and the actions that I might take.

01:01:18.640 Yeah. I, I think there's a lot of, um, well, I'll say it like this. I think there's a lot of

01:01:24.960 arrogance in believing that we can take ourselves out of the cycle of life, that we can remove

01:01:33.360 ourselves from our interaction with nature and think that we don't have a part to play or we

01:01:40.480 shouldn't have a part to play that, that to me is an arrogant position to think that, oh, if I just

01:01:46.800 do this, then it won't affect nature and mother nature and mother earth, however you choose to

01:01:51.040 look at it, we'll, we'll, we'll be better because we're not here or something. It just seems weird

01:01:56.720 to me. It's a very strange thing for me.

01:01:59.200 I think it's born to some degree. I think it's born of a, of some kind of self-loathing

01:02:06.880 to view, like to have this sense of humanity or the sense of yourself as being like, so sort of

01:02:13.520 ugly and destructive that, that inner me, even for us as humans, like intermingle with nature is,

01:02:21.280 is nasty. You know, like, I just don't like, I don't view myself that way. I don't view my

01:02:27.440 relationship to nature that way, but it comes from this sense that like, that, you know, nature is

01:02:32.240 like observed through a windshield, right? Drive through a national park and us ugly, nasty people, 0.57

01:02:39.040 like minute we kind of like touch it, we've defiled it. Um, yeah. And I'm, and man, it hasn't been my 0.95

01:02:46.400 experience, you know? Well, and I mean, that's, and it's not, it's not something that's reinforced

01:02:50.480 to me even by any of the, of the, the conservation leaders and conservation philosophers that I've

01:02:57.360 paid attention to and studied. Well, and not to mention you and guys like yourself are so

01:03:04.400 intimate with, with wildlife, with nature that it is more so than anybody who talks about

01:03:14.080 conserving. I mean, you're involved, you're in it, your, your hands are literally dirty

01:03:19.440 because you're part of the process and you're being a good, I use the word steward.

01:03:25.160 Your stewardship is very, very important. Right. And, and it's, and it's for hunting and it's for

01:03:30.660 generations and it's so people can enjoy it. And so it's, it can sustain itself all for noble

01:03:36.080 reasons from my perspective. Yeah. Um, you know, I should point out and clarify here that this was,

01:03:41.980 this was not a sensibility that I was really brought up with. Um, uh, there was a lot, there

01:03:52.260 was a lot of kind of like grab it while the getting's good mentality people had, um, even to the point

01:03:59.360 where like at the most basic level, man, like someone will ask me like, how do you be ethical?

01:04:03.820 How do you be an ethical fisherman or ethical hunter? I'm like, you know what a great place

01:04:07.520 to start is, man. Follow the rules. Yeah. Right. Follow the rules. That's 99% of the battle,

01:04:15.860 dude. Follow the rules. We didn't even, we couldn't even do that. Yeah. When I was young, we had a very

01:04:21.860 like, you know, immature relationship there with, with conservation. But it was also things I remember

01:04:28.900 when I remember when a neighbor had dumped some wood ducks, he had like, he'd most killed some wood

01:04:36.100 ducks and didn't clean them. Then realize they'd kind of soured, spoiled. And he dumped them in a 1.00

01:04:40.540 garbage bag out in the woods and my old man found them. And man, do I remember just how unbelievably

01:04:47.800 pissed and violated, violated, he felt by that. So there was like a seed of it. There was a seed of

01:04:57.800 it, but there was also just a lot of like somewhat, you know, for the, like, just like I said, like a

01:05:02.700 get it while you can get it, get it while the getting's good, get what's mine, you know, without

01:05:07.900 a lot of consideration toward how you were leaving things that all became stuff that you, that you

01:05:12.780 learned, but what was there was that love. We just wouldn't have described it as such.

01:05:17.800 Like, you know, I wouldn't describe, like, I would have said like, I love hunting and fishing.

01:05:21.260 I would have said like, I love nature. You know, it wouldn't have been like a thing that I would

01:05:26.060 have thought to, to say, but then later I realized that I damn sure did. Um, and then I was, it was,

01:05:33.980 I was gradually okay with just pointing that out about myself, you know?

01:05:39.160 Yeah. I think there's a level of, of maturity there and evolution that I think all of us can,

01:05:43.760 can adopt and embrace and be better, right? Just be better. You know, that's,

01:05:47.220 that's the whole goal is to continue to improve ourselves and whatever endeavor that is. If it's

01:05:51.140 just enjoying nature as, as a hiker or, uh, hunting or fishing or whatever, we can do better for

01:05:58.320 ourselves and the people that we care about for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Steve, I appreciate you,

01:06:03.420 man. I know you've got a lot going on, so I really appreciate you carving out some, some time for me.

01:06:07.740 Would you let the guys know where to connect with you, where to pick up a copy of the book,

01:06:10.820 all of that stuff? Yeah. So, uh, you can check me out on social media, like on Instagram at just

01:06:18.200 at Steven Rinella, but the best way to go find my stuff and kind of our world is, um, if you go to

01:06:24.740 the meat eater.com, um, you'll find links for everything and videos and how to stuff and book

01:06:32.240 material, all kinds of stuff. Uh, a lot of hunting and fishing articles and information and everything

01:06:38.120 you could possibly want. Uh, the book's available everywhere. So, um, you can find it wherever,

01:06:43.880 where you can order from your local bookstore. You can find it at Barnes and Noble. You can find

01:06:47.120 it on Amazon. Um, but yeah, please check it out. Right on. We'll sync it all up again. I really

01:06:52.720 appreciate you. We've been watching for years. I don't know if that's still weird for you to hear

01:06:56.900 when people are like, you're watching me. I don't know if that's weird at this point for you.

01:07:00.140 No, no, I'm good with it. I'm good. Um, I know my, my oldest boy, he's been so excited about

01:07:05.860 this. I've been looking forward to it did not disappoint. And I'm excited to go here in a

01:07:09.900 minute and share how our conversation went with him. And I know the guys are going to be served

01:07:13.560 by our conversation as well. Thanks, brother. Thanks, man. Appreciate it, man. There you go.

01:07:18.680 My conversation with the one and only Steven Rinella, uh, at first and foremost, guys,

01:07:22.720 I just got to tell you, I appreciate you without you listening and tuning in and having the

01:07:26.100 conversations and being banded with us and believing in what we do. Uh, there's no way that I'd get men

01:07:31.440 of, uh, such high caliber as Steven and the other guests that I've had on. So I recognize you,

01:07:37.040 I acknowledge you in helping me accomplish this goal of restoring and reclaiming masculinity.

01:07:41.380 And I hope you enjoyed this conversation. Uh, I hope it inspires you to get outside that you want

01:07:45.940 to take your kids outside and other, uh, people that you have a responsibility for that you teach

01:07:50.380 them about the outdoors and nature and trees and plants and animals that you consider going on,

01:07:57.340 maybe even your first hunt and making that connection between where your food comes from

01:08:02.180 and where it actually lives and how to bridge that gap. That's been a very, very powerful thing

01:08:07.680 in my own personal life. And now I've had the tremendous blessing and benefit of being able to

01:08:13.460 pass that down to my children, specifically my oldest son who just harvested a several weeks ago,

01:08:18.740 his very first deer. So I've learned a lot from Steven. I know you guys will too. My son's picked

01:08:23.640 up a bunch of copies of his or copies of every one of his books, I believe at this point. And, uh,

01:08:29.260 yeah, he's done a lot of good for our family. I think what he shares will do a lot of good for

01:08:33.140 you and yours as well. So connect with Steven on the socials, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook,

01:08:38.460 YouTube, wherever you're doing it, check out his Netflix series, meat eater, connect with me on the,

01:08:44.300 uh, on the socials, take a screenshot of you, you know, the podcast and just share it wherever

01:08:50.120 you're on social media. And that goes a long way in promoting the visibility. Also leave a rating

01:08:54.320 and review, check out originbeardoil.com. Check out our battle ready program. Holy cow. We've got

01:08:59.480 a lot going on guys. And I just appreciate you being on this path with us. Uh, if you have any,

01:09:03.920 uh, recommendations or suggestions for podcast guests moving into 2021, please let me know.

01:09:09.340 Uh, my calendar is pretty full with guests at this point, which is nice, but we're always open

01:09:14.200 to having other men who are going to teach us new and interesting and fascinating things. So please

01:09:20.380 reach out to me, connect with me on the socials and we'll see you there. Uh, we'll be back tomorrow

01:09:24.520 for I asked me anything, but until then go out there, take action and become the man you are meant

01:09:29.320 to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

01:09:34.120 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

01:09:44.200 Thank you.

Order of Man - December 22, 2020

STEVEN RINELLA ｜ MeatEater

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