Stillness is the Key ｜ RYAN HOLIDAY
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 8 minutes
Words per Minute
188.7412
Summary
Ryan Holiday joins us to talk about his new book, "Stillness is the Key" and why stillness is a key to mastery, freedom, happiness, and tranquility. We also do a deeper dive into the power of saying no, how to conquer anger, finding confidence, and avoiding ego.
Transcript
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We live in a climate where we are inundated with messages and opportunities and entertainment.
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We've demanded and created a culture where we are never bored, never quiet, and frankly,
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never satisfied. But what if that noise was one of the largest barriers to satisfaction
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and fulfillment in our lives? Today, I'm joined by repeat guest Ryan Holiday to talk about his
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new book, Stillness is the Key. We cover why stillness is the key to mastery, freedom,
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happiness, and tranquility. We also do a deeper dive into the power of saying no, how to conquer
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anger, finding confidence, but avoiding ego, and how stillness truly is the key.
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You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart
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your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not
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easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, or strong. This is your life. This is who you are.
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This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call
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yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler, and I am the host and the
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founder of this podcast and the movement that is Order of Man. I want to welcome you back,
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or I want to welcome you for the first time, regardless of how long you've been tuning in,
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even if this is the first time you've ever heard the show. This is a podcast and a movement,
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a movement to recapture and reclaim masculinity in a society that seems to be increasingly dismissive
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of it. It's my goal to give you the conversations and tools and guidance and direction that you need
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to more adequately step up as a capable husband, father, business owner, leader in your community,
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and every other facet of life that you're showing up as. We've got this interview show. I'm
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interviewing today, Ryan holiday, but we've had guys like Jocko Willink, David Goggins,
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Grant Cardone, Andy Frisilla. I say it every week, but the lineup of men that have decided to band with
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us in some way and join us in these conversations is, is powerful. And I hope you're getting a lot
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of value from it. We've also got our Friday field notes, which is some of my ramblings and thoughts
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from throughout the week. And then we've got our Wednesday show, which is an ask me anything show
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where myself and our co-host Kip Sorensen are fielding questions from the Facebook group and
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Brotherhood, the iron council. Now guys, I hope you hear an improvement in audio quality today.
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I got some new microphones still notice a little bit of echo. Uh, that's because my office is still
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being remodeled in between everything else that I have going on. So I've got to work through some
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of those issues, but I hope the sound quality and the audio is a little bit better. We're continuing to
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invest in the tools that are going to make this a more enjoyable and more effective when it comes to
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at checkout again, origin, Maine.com use the code order. All right, guys, with that said, let me get
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into the meat of the discussion today. Again, my guest is Ryan holiday, a man who probably doesn't
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need an introduction for you. Uh, you've heard him on this podcast before. Uh, you probably read
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his books, not all of them, maybe, maybe all of them, but definitely ego is the enemy. Uh,
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the obstacle is the way and the daily stoic. And then of course his new book, which is stillness
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is the key. Uh, this is somebody I consider to be a great thinker and many of his ideas and works
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have helped me find the philosophy of stoicism and discover more satisfaction and fulfillment
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in my life. So I'm honored to have Ryan back on the podcast to talk about, uh, the concept of
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stillness. This is one area that I personally struggle with. So reading his new book and of
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course, uh, having this conversation have proven to be transformative for me. And I know it will be
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for you too. Ryan, what's going on, man. Good to see you again. Yeah. Good to see you too. Uh,
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thanks for having me. Yeah. Round. Well, I was going to say round three, but it's not really
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round three. Cause how many books have you written? Uh, this is a 10, 10, it was way off,
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man. I was way off. It's, it's round three. And what I would consider the stoic series. Is that,
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is that a fair assessment? Yeah. I don't, I don't refer to it as, uh, as the stoic trilogy,
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but it is a trilogy of three books, obstacles, the way you go is the enemy. And now stillness is
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the key. Yeah. I was really curious why you chose stillness. Cause there's a lot of virtues.
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There's a lot of principles that you could have chosen and yet you chose stillness. What is it
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about stillness? Well, I don't, I don't know if an author so much chooses the book or the book chooses
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them. I think for me, uh, stillness is this timeless idea that appears in, in almost all the
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ancient schools. And yet when you say that word, it feels very urgent and timely. I think we're all
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sort of busier than we've ever been before. We're all trying to get to that, that thing that Cal
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Newport calls deep work. We're, we're trying to get to a place where as crazy as things are on the
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outside, we can be sort of calm and clear on the inside. So we can do what's important, whether that's
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being a father or, or, or, or being an author or being, you know, whatever you, you, you were trying
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to do in this life. So I think what I'm trying to do in the book or why I wanted to write it was
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there's this thing that people have struggled with for thousands of years, uh, and, and they've come
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up with some good strategies for tackling it. Uh, and yet, um, we've forgotten a lot of those
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principles and we kind of need this, we need that idea. We need that stillness more than ever.
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Yeah. I, it seems to me that when it comes to behavior, if the, if popular
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society seems to be going one way that we ought to consider, or at least look at maybe going the
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other way. Sure. Yeah. I mean, look, uh, I have a quote in the book, in the intro from blaze Pascal,
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where he says all of humanity's problems stem from our inability to sit quietly in a room alone.
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And, you know, that was true 500 years ago, certainly true. Now, I guess the question, uh,
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to go to your point is, are you going to continue along with this sort of wave of frenetic energy
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and outrage and busyness and overwhelmingness and, and, and sort of excitability and misery,
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or are you going to look backwards and see, you know, maybe there's a better way of living?
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How do you feel that we as a society have gotten to the point where it is chaos and outrage and
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stimulus and inputs and everything that we're dealing with?
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Yeah. I mean, look, technology is obviously a huge part of it, but when you, I, I, I opened the
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book with this story of, of Seneca who right around the turn of, uh, you know, as we switched from BC to
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AD. So it's a very long time ago. He's sitting in this apartment in Rome trying to write.
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And he's just talking about how noisy it is outside, just how busy life is and how hard it is
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to concentrate and focus and do what he needs to do. Um, so I, I think, I think it is this timeless
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thing. We don't want to focus. We, we don't want to, we don't want to give everything we have to
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whatever we're doing for a lot of reasons. Um, and, and then when you add on top of that technology
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and commerce and, you know, all these sort of modern conveniences, you, you, you end up in a
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world that like, uh, makes, you know, Seneca's or Blaise Pascal's world seem quaint and quiet by
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comparison. But the truth is, uh, if we were to zoom backwards in time, we'd have trouble sitting
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quietly alone in a room too. The mind just doesn't want to go there.
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Yeah. I wonder if it's just in our nature to continue to progress and, and move forward.
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And in a lot of ways, and I've fallen prey to this is believing that action is prudent,
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right? That if I'm moving, if I'm going forward, then I'm doing something and it's by default
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productive when maybe that's not really the case.
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Well, I think we have this sort of existential, uh, aversion to the present, right? We want to
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think about what's happened in the past. We want to dwell on our childhood. We want to dwell on what
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somebody said to us this morning. You know, we want to relive our glory days, or we want to worry
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about things that are way off in the future. Um, or we want to plan what we're going to do next.
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Um, or think about how this is going to go before it happens. All of which is a way of, of avoiding
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what's right in front of you, which is this sort of present moment. And the truth is the present
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moment is the only place that you can really do anything, right? Like we, we fantasize about
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love or greatness or accomplishment or whatever way off in the future. But the truth is the only
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way you get there is by, you know, engaging with what's right in front of you. And so,
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you know, when I'm talking about stillness, I'm not talking about stillness in this sort of
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Zen Buddhist way necessarily, where it's like, go, you know, move to an ashram or, or head to a
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monastery. I'm talking about how do you use stillness to be better at being a podcaster? I mean,
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like the amount of interviews I do where it's so clear that the person isn't listening to me,
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but thinking about their next question or thinking about some argument they had with their wife,
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you know, uh, earlier that day, or they're thinking about the noise that's going on outside or,
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you know, like it, and those are not the good interviews. The good interviews are where the
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person is locked in, where they're focused, where it's a real, where it's a real conversation,
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where they're, they've given up a little bit of the control and they're willing to go where it
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takes. All of that is, uh, uh, you know, unique to podcasting, but you know, you don't make,
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you don't write a good book, you know, thinking about, uh, you know, whether you're going to make
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the bestseller list or not, you make a good book because you were totally engaged in the, the,
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the sentence you were writing in that moment. So it's all about being present,
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I think at the core of it. I think you bring up a good point because I, you know,
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I'm somebody that prides myself on being effective and efficient and wanting to move the needle and
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wanting to get things done. And I think probably are like that. I think most of the guys listening
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are like that. And so when we hear this idea of stillness, the conclusion that you might jump to
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on the surface is, Oh, now I've got to go meditate and pick up some Buddhist practices. And I'm like,
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you know, I don't have time for that, which is funny because it's kind of a paradox on what the
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book is all about. Yeah. Look, I'm not saying it's not good to be effective and driven and hard
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working. I'm actually saying that what you need is some stillness to be better at that thing. And
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look, I don't think that Eastern religions have done themselves any favors, right? They do talk
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about meditation as if it's the sort of end all be all. You even look at the imagery. It's like,
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I remember when they were putting together the cover of the book, they were, they picked all
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these sort of Zen images and it's like a stone, you know, you know, stacked on top of some other
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stones, or it's like, you know, ripples in water or what I like, these are not, these are not the images
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of a doer, but it's important to realize that many of the most, you know, sort of well-known
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practitioners of Buddhism were, you know, princes and kings or archers or samurai warriors, just as
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on the, on the sort of Western side, the really great philosophers were not these nerds who loved
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books. They were the emperor. They were, they were writers, they were politicians, they were
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businessmen. You know, they were people existing in the real world. So stillness to me is not,
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you know, this abstraction stillness is what, you know, John F. Kennedy is calling on in the Cuban
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missile crisis. It's what a baseball player is thinking about as they step up to the plate. You
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know, it's what, you know, a hedge fund trader is needing to think about as, as the market is, you
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know, whipsawing up and down. Stillness is what we need in our actual life. You think about, you know,
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the difference between a grandparent and a parent, a parent is running around with their head cut
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off, trying to manage it all. The grandparent, a little wiser, a little older, a little more
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experienced is able to sort of slow things down. They don't get worked up as easily. They don't,
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oh, we have to go here. It has to be this way. Right. So stillness is this thing that will make you
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better at, at everything you're doing. Whether it's personal or professional or, or, or everything
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in between. I'm glad you talked about the baseball player and you've got a lot of good stories in here
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that tie into perfectly how successful people have used these principles to achieve more. It reminds me
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there's a, there's a movie with Kevin Costner. I think it's called, I think it's for love of the
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game. I think it's what it is. And he's, he's got relationship issues with, with his wife and
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they're going through a deal. And then he's pitching in the baseball game and he's throwing
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this perfect game. And his, his trigger for lack of a better term is clear the mechanism.
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Sure. Which, which the way that they portrayed it in the video or in the movie is that everything
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else is drowned it out. It's all, it's all drowned it out. And he's very hyper focused on that one
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thing and ends up, well, I don't want to give any spoilers old movie, but he ends up throwing a
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perfect game. Yeah, no. And that, and that's what you have to, you have to do. You like the,
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the things that we're trying to do professionally are difficult enough, right? Trying to write a book
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or make a movie or, or, you know, pull off an investment or start a company or be president,
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whatever it is, it's already really hard. The idea that you can succeed at that while your mind is
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preoccupied with a bunch of other unrelated things, it's just insane. And I do talk about baseball a lot
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in the book because baseball is, I mean, it's not my favorite sport, but baseball is, is the act of
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hitting in baseball, maybe the single hardest act in all of sports, right? In, in the sense that you
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have something like 400 milliseconds to identify a pitch and swing at it. So it's incredible. The ball
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leaves the pitcher's hand who's like 60 some feet away, uh, at, at, you know, a hundred miles an hour,
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it's coming into a tiny window. Um, and you've got to hit it with a fricking piece of wood. I mean,
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it's insane, right? Um, you have, you have a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a second to identify
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that. If you're thinking about what you're going through in your personal life, if you're thinking
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about, um, what the coach thinks about you, if you think about what they're saying about you on
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Twitter, if you're even thinking about the pitch that you just swung and missed at, you are taking
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away, not just valuable real estate, but like critical real estate from the one thing that you
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are trying to do. And the margin for error there is so small that you just, you can't afford to waste
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that. So it's in some ways it's stillnesses and this, this clarity, this emptying the mind. It's
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not just this thing you do in meditation. It's a, it's a, a resource allocation issue. It's a,
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it's a performance strategy, uh, for, for, you know, sports and life and, uh, and again,
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everything in between. Yeah. I mean, I like, let's riff on this baseball thing a little bit more
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because one of the principles that you talk about, you call them principles. One of the strategies,
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I don't, I don't remember what you call it, uh, is, is to have a routine. And if you think
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about, for example, a batter coming up to the plate, he is going through the exact same
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routine, the way that he, uh, is on deck and taking his warmup swings, the way that he steps
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into the batter's box, how he lines himself up with the plate, the movements that he does
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with his shoulders or his hips and where he places the bat. It's all a calculated, deliberate
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routine. I imagine, I mean, I know part of the reason that is, but I imagine also it's
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so that he can free up the real estate to focus more heavily on the important thing, like the
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timing or the release of the ball. Yeah, no, it's a, it's about getting into the zone. It's
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about clearing the mind. Like, look, they've done studies, those weights that batters put
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on the end of the bat that has like, uh, demonstrably no impact on swing whatsoever. Like it may even
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be harmful, right? It doesn't help because it changes everything. Yeah. But the process
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of doing it is why they keep doing it. Um, and it's the same for a lot of the superstitions
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that you see athletes go through, obviously wearing this pair of socks or, you know, touching
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their helmet this way or, or, you know, Russell Westbrook, uh, does the same routine after he
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shoots a free throw and he starts his warmup at the same time and he's the same peanut butter
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and jelly sandwich. It's the same. It's, it's about, uh, not only getting, uh, into the
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right, uh, frame of mind, but it, it's, it's a tool for when that equilibrium is, is shattered
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or violated. So you miss the free throw. It's, it's almost like, uh, you know, like my kid
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has an Etch-A-Sketch and you can, you, you, some of them you can shake, but this one, it
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has like a, a, a slide. You just like, you slide it up and it clears the palette. That's
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what a lot of these rituals are about. It's about sort of starting fresh. Um, so you're
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like, I messed up, but I'm not going to stay with that. I'm going back into the routine
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and I'm starting over. So these, these routines are really a better way to talk about them
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is as rituals. They're sort of ritualistic in the way that you light a candle when you
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go into a church or you say a certain chant or a prayer. Um, it's about sort of getting
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into the right headspace and being able to access that on demand.
00:19:55.600
Yeah. That on demand is huge because so many of us, we fly by the seat of our pants. We're
00:20:01.360
very reactional. We're very emotional, right? And so we allow these things to cloud what
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would otherwise be a very rational human being. And it ends up becoming a, becoming a problem
00:20:14.380
Yeah. I think it's about taking some control over your environment and your life and your
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process rather than being reactionary. Like I don't, uh, like people who write in coffee
00:20:24.920
shops, I don't understand because to me, this is way too chaotic and it's way too uncertain
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and it allows for interruption. For me, it's like, I, I go to a place, I sit down at that
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place, I start and I stay there till I'm done. I'm not running around doing 15 things at the
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same time. You need to have some control over the process and the environment. The stillness
00:20:47.560
is not natural, right? It's a, it's a place you have to work yourself into.
00:20:52.640
Is there, is there a place though for some of that sporadic, that chaotic, um, you know,
00:20:58.780
whether it's at Starbucks or whatever, cause I tend to be a very methodical person, right?
00:21:04.500
So I've got something, I'm going to do step a and then B and then C. And if I do that,
00:21:09.120
I know what's going to work. And if it doesn't work, I can figure out where it doesn't work
00:21:12.360
so I can fix it. Yeah. I don't migrate that way, but I know a lot of people do.
00:21:17.080
Yeah. Yeah. I think you have to have room for flexibility. Of course, like I think about it
00:21:21.360
less as having a daily routine and having daily routines, plural. So if my kid wakes up late,
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I'm not like freaking out because now the whole thing is, uh, you have to, you have to have some,
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I heard a great word from a, from a female author's name, I'm forgetting, but she said,
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you have to have respondability. Like, can you respond to the things that happen? I think this
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is really important. So you don't want to be so rigid and fragile in your routine that
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there's no room for life to, to, or Murphy's law. Uh, there's no slack there for you to absorb any of
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that. But at the same time, if you're just winging it all the time, you're not going to get your best
00:22:03.200
work. Yeah. Yeah. There's, I guess there's the balance and then what you're ultimately trying to,
00:22:08.520
to accomplish as well. Sure. You were talking about, so I've got the book right here. Um,
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you were talking about the cover. What, what's the significance of the sun? Why did, why choose
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that then over the rock or whatever else you could have chosen? Yeah. I just wanted something that
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sort of catches your attention that, that, uh, that, that, um, you know, sort of has this idea of
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radiating outward, but not in the way that a, you know, a ripple in a pond is insignificant. The sun is
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the most important thing in our universe. Um, I wanted to talk about how I wanted to sort of
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capture this idea of stillness being this thing that we possessed, but that we send outward sort
00:22:48.380
of, it radiates around us. So I, it doesn't have a ton of meaning in particular part, part of what a
00:22:54.020
cover is there to do is just to catch your attention. Um, but, but what I, I didn't want to
00:23:00.380
perpetuate some of the sort of tropes or stereotypes of, of the Eastern side of things.
00:23:06.420
Sure. I do like that. You talk about radiating outwards because one of the things that we talk
00:23:11.800
a lot about is working on ourselves as men, improving yourself, focusing on yourself, giving
00:23:16.580
yourself the time and attention you deserve, but it's not an entirely selfish endeavor. We do that
00:23:22.800
so that we can more effectively impact other people's lives in the positive, our kid, wife,
00:23:28.760
our colleagues, employees, whoever it may be. So I do like the idea of stillness, not being this
00:23:35.880
idea of retreating indefinitely, but creating an environment where you can do your best work.
00:23:42.100
You talked about Cal Newport, who's been on the podcast a couple of times so that hopefully you
00:23:46.100
can go out and then serve others more effectively. Ultimately that's why we're here to help each other
00:23:51.260
out. Yeah, no, I think that's right. I think anyone who's been around a particularly sort of still
00:23:58.000
or wise person has recognized how you can almost just feel that. It's just sort of coming off of
00:24:05.440
them. You're just in the same, they say in the military, right? The calm is contagious. You can
00:24:10.960
feel that when you're around people who've just got a lock on themselves and who they are and what
00:24:15.980
they're doing. And so, yeah, I think a big part of the book is, is yeah, this is not about moving to
00:24:21.040
a monastery. This is not about retreating to your library. This is about how do you have stillness
00:24:26.740
in the real world? Uh, and, and how do you, how do you model it for other people? Um, whether that's
00:24:34.040
your children or your friends or your colleagues or whatever, if, if the leader of an organization
00:24:39.000
or a family is freaking out and losing their mind all the time, um, that's, that's, that's going to,
00:24:46.660
that's going to affect other people. It's going to make it very hard for them to maintain their
00:24:52.240
cool, for them to be calm. You know, kids pick up on your anxiety. They pick up on your insecurities.
00:24:58.860
They pick up on your franticness. They pick up when you're overwhelmed in ways that you often don't
00:25:04.160
even understand. I mean, like you, uh, sometimes we'll, we'll go like, Oh, why is our son not sleeping?
00:25:09.780
Or why is our baby having it? It's because the house is just filled with stress. It's picking up
00:25:15.900
that energy. Dogs are the same way. Like if you're in a shitty mood, your dog, you can, you can almost
00:25:21.840
see it reflected in your, in the pets that live in your house. And so this doesn't have to get sort
00:25:27.220
of too woo woo about energy, but the truth is like we, these things manifest themselves in our lives
00:25:32.960
physically, uh, in our body and our body language and the, just the sort of mood that we're giving off.
00:25:39.180
And so we, we have to be able to figure out how to control and contain that.
00:25:44.620
Yeah, I was, uh, it's funny. Cause as you talk about the, the chaos that kids pick up on, I was,
00:25:50.080
I was with somebody that I know and their kids were, were being loud and rambunctious and being
00:25:57.540
children, but they off the walls. I mean, they really were. And the, the mom says, I can't understand
00:26:04.260
why my kids are like this. And she's freaking out. And in my mind, like right here, I'm like,
00:26:08.540
of course, really? Yeah. You don't understand and can't see why your kids are acting like that
00:26:14.460
as you're acting like the grownup version of them right now. It's hard for us to see what we're
00:26:19.200
doing it ourselves. Well, look, and to go back to this idea of routines, if you want some
00:26:24.240
illustration of the power and importance of routine, you know, like try raising a kid with
00:26:29.600
no structure and no routine, right. Or, or have, have it and then just throw it out the window one
00:26:36.520
day. And all of a sudden they're having meltdowns. They're not sleeping. They're doing things they
00:26:42.400
know they're not supposed to do because they, that life is overwhelming, right? There's, it's,
00:26:48.060
it's, there's so many choices. I mean, you could do anything you want at any time, essentially.
00:26:53.120
Right. And so, and so think about an adult who has even more, uh, you know, freedom than a child,
00:26:59.960
uh, to, to, to, to be faced with, with all of that is overwhelming and intimidating. And,
00:27:06.560
and I think it, we, we act out. And so, uh, Eisenhower, I think he said something like
00:27:11.460
opportunity or it's our freedom is best expressed as the opportunity for self-discipline.
00:27:16.700
And I think with kids, it's like, no, you've got like, this is the time that we wake up. This is what
00:27:21.540
we do in the morning. This is when we have breakfast. This is when you go to school.
00:27:25.620
This is what we do after school. Um, and, and, and that structure allows them to calm down
00:27:32.380
and to, to sort of get a handle on themselves because there's just less for them to think
00:27:38.680
and worry about. Yeah. It's, it's, it's really fascinating. You bring up the discipline thing,
00:27:43.420
because I think on the surface, a lot of people hear that and think, well, discipline restriction,
00:27:48.200
right? It's not liberating. It's, it's restricting, but you have guys like, I think
00:27:52.100
you said Eisenhower who had that quote, you have Aristotle 2000 years ago through discipline
00:27:56.840
comes freedom. Jocko willing discipline equals freedom. These are highly successful men who
00:28:01.980
have figured out that discipline isn't designed to limit necessarily. It's voluntary restriction,
00:28:07.860
I guess you'd say, but ultimately creates the freedom for what you want to do. And you hit
00:28:11.780
on that when you talk about, uh, learning to say no and, and limiting your options or,
00:28:17.280
or your endeavors, the things that you're pursuing. Yeah, totally. Totally. You've got,
00:28:22.180
you've got a freedom. Freedom is misery. Complete freedom is misery. Uh, anyone that's experienced
00:28:29.400
it knows that you got to have purpose. You got to have direction. You got to have structure. Uh,
00:28:35.420
because if you don't, you have, you have no stillness. You just have chaos and disorder.
00:28:39.880
Yeah, no, it's, that's true. So how do you then, because I think a lot of people will buy
00:28:45.200
into the idea of limiting and saying, no, it's something I've been sharing for quite a while
00:28:49.120
now and something I've gotten better at. How do you, like, what filters do you place
00:28:54.540
choices and activities through in order to determine, is this something that I should
00:28:58.960
engage in or should I disengage so that I can create some more margin in my life?
00:29:04.420
Yeah, I think there's a, there's a number of filters. I mean, the first one is like,
00:29:07.980
uh, do I actually have to do this or not? I think so many people sort of unthinkingly do things because
00:29:16.500
other people do them, but they unthinkingly want things because other people seem to want them.
00:29:22.980
Right. So they, why do you live in New York city? Well, everyone in my industry lives in New York
00:29:27.700
city. Do you actually have to live there? Like it, would you, would it cost you money if you,
00:29:33.080
if you move? No, I could do whatever I do. And you know, and so, so it's like, is this thing
00:29:38.500
optional or not? Is like, I think the first rule, the second is like, do I want to do it or not?
00:29:43.540
Does it get me closer or further away from the life that I want to lead? Yes or no. Right. Um,
00:29:49.600
and then another way to think about it or a third thing is like, what is the best way to do this?
00:29:54.380
Right. So a lot of people, I'm just always surprised at how, how little they have in the way of
00:30:00.960
systems. So a routine is like, Hey, this is how I structure my day. But a system is like,
00:30:06.220
this is the way I do X, whether it's writing a book or prepare for interviews or, you know,
00:30:13.400
research an investment deal, whatever it is that you're doing, like, what is your system? It can't
00:30:18.580
just be, you know, you walk in, you see people's desk and it's like just piles of garbage. And,
00:30:23.820
and they've got 50 different inboxes that they're monitoring and the phone's ringing off the hook and
00:30:30.060
blah, blah, blah. Like, of course you're overwhelmed. Of course you're not, you know,
00:30:33.880
getting, uh, uh, the, the best performance you can get out of yourself. No, like you got to create
00:30:39.200
a system, uh, that you operate by. And then you have to apply that system to the essential things
00:30:45.860
having eliminated the inessential things. You know, I think that, that being a systemized person
00:30:52.660
probably is a bit inherent in different individuals, right? That might be a strength for them.
00:30:59.320
You know, for example, I imagine you are a systems guy. I I've used your systems for
00:31:04.180
writing a book with the note cards and having the file filing system. Um, is this something that you
00:31:10.600
naturally gravitate towards this idea of stillness and systems, or is this something that you've had
00:31:16.020
to cultivate and develop? Well, look, I think there are certainly minds that are more systematic than
00:31:21.520
others that, as they look at the sort of Asperger's spectrum, they find that sort of systematic
00:31:26.340
mindset in the very extremes is what Asperger's is. And then the lack of it is, is sort of a,
00:31:33.160
its own extreme. But, but like, I wasn't born researching books and using physical note cards,
00:31:40.240
right? Like taught me that system and then in use it and then putting in the work, doing the,
00:31:46.320
laying the groundwork for that system, I was able to, uh, to start to get a return on that investment.
00:31:54.760
And then it's the same as an analogy. I think this applies to systems. Uh, Tyler Cowen was once asked
00:32:02.440
like, you know, how can I read as quickly as you? And he was like, read thousands of books. And what
00:32:08.560
he meant was that because he's read all these other books, he's able to breathe through books because
00:32:14.340
his base of knowledge is so strong that he's not learned things that you're, you're reading this
00:32:21.600
book and you're having to look up all these names and you don't really know what's going on. You
00:32:25.860
don't have a sense of where the story is going. Whereas someone like him who's put in his thousands
00:32:30.480
and thousands of hours has a base of knowledge and skills that allows him to, to sort of cut through
00:32:36.760
the task more quickly. And so I think systems are something that sure, you might have a natural
00:32:42.400
inclination or a natural aversion to them, but it's in building the system and then sticking to
00:32:48.860
the system in through multiple iterations that you start to get more and more benefit and it becomes a
00:32:55.700
virtuous cycle. Um, I, I researched books that way because I'm now familiar with it. And I also just have
00:33:04.620
all this research that I can move and plug around and I, and, and that's why it works for me.
00:33:09.620
Yeah. I mean, I I've, I've got compliments like, Oh, you know, you're, you're great at podcasting
00:33:14.920
or interviewing, you know, how, how do you get, you must've been born, you know, just a natural
00:33:19.260
communicator. I'm like, no. In fact, I told somebody this a couple of weeks ago that went in school.
00:33:25.180
They used to call me the hermit. Cause I didn't want to talk with people. I didn't want to engage.
00:33:28.660
I didn't want to go out. I'm like, I wasn't born that way. Well, how do you get good at it?
00:33:31.980
You do it a lot and then you review it and correct along the way. I mean, same with how do you get
00:33:38.500
better at pull-ups? You do more pull-ups and then you'll get better at it. Yeah. Look, I think that
00:33:43.820
a natural aptitude certainly helps for kicking off that cycle. I mean, uh, but if you were trying to
00:33:51.340
learn a habit or correct a bad habit, you'd start by doing it the way, you know, it's supposed to be
00:33:57.260
done. And the more you do it, the more natural it becomes and the greater confidence you build in
00:34:02.200
your ability to do it that way. Yeah. So with, with the book and I've got some notes here, but
00:34:07.080
with the book, the way that you broke it down is really three primary segments. So you have mind,
00:34:12.020
body, soul. Yep. And then within each one of those, you have these different principles or strategies,
00:34:17.220
whatever you want to call them. How did you identify those? How did you whittle it down and narrow
00:34:22.800
it down to the strategies that you decided to include in the, in the book itself?
00:34:26.460
Well, so mind, mind, body, soul is clearly not a distinction that I made up. That's a pretty sort
00:34:31.640
of common sort of delineation of the sort of parts of life. And so I, I, I'm a pretty big fan of a
00:34:38.720
three-part structure. I think it, it helps the readers sort of the other books in that series,
00:34:44.000
uh, also on a three-part structure. So I was sort of looking for something along those lines,
00:34:48.860
but, but what you tend to find as you research, and again, this goes to the idea of systems,
00:34:55.280
that the systems tends to create patterns. So you're researching, you're exploring, you're,
00:35:02.080
you're, you're experiencing things that are related to this idea and you're accumulating material,
00:35:09.560
but that material is going naturally sort of towards these little pools of, Hey, these are
00:35:16.960
examples of a higher power. These are examples of clearing the mind. These are examples of being
00:35:22.820
present. These are examples of having a routine. These are, uh, examples of the power of, of, of
00:35:29.540
hobbies, you know, whatever it happens to be, there's different ones. Uh, and you, you just sort
00:35:35.300
of start to accumulate. And then as you accumulate, you refine and you, you concentrate. And, and again,
00:35:41.020
a book is, there's a, uh, obviously a huge sort of conscious shaping of it, but it's also a thing
00:35:48.700
that kind of ensues that it's, it's a little bit like music. You know, you sit down and you've
00:35:55.340
practiced and you have something you're trying to express, but you're also just sort of following
00:36:01.820
wherever it, whatever it is leads you. Gentlemen, let me hit the, uh, the pause button real quick.
00:36:08.300
Many of you already know that a couple of months ago we held our first ever main event. Now it was
00:36:15.020
such a huge success that I wanted to open it up again as soon as possible. And so with plenty of
00:36:20.300
notice, uh, we marked our calendars for May 29th through the 31st, 2020. Now those initial seats
00:36:26.940
that we made available have completely been sold out, but we feel like we can facilitate a few more.
00:36:32.780
So we've opened up 20 more spots. That's it. 20 more spots. And once those are filled,
00:36:37.660
we're, we're done. Uh, this is a two and a half day event, uh, designed to help you forge new bonds
00:36:43.980
with men on the same path as you and give you the tools and framework to accomplish more in a 90 day
00:36:49.660
period than potentially you have in your entire life. So if you want to lock in one of those last 20 spots,
00:36:56.620
head to order of man.com slash main event today, you better do it today. Uh, you can watch the video
00:37:03.260
recap of our last event and of course get registered quickly. I hope to see you there, but again,
00:37:08.380
you got to do it quick. Go to order of man.com slash main event. You can do that right after you
00:37:14.300
listen to this podcast for now, I'll get back to my conversation with Ryan. And that's, you know,
00:37:19.900
that's, as you say that it's interesting because I think when, when people think of creative types,
00:37:25.500
they think it's all like that. But what I've experienced is that the more structure you have,
00:37:30.780
the systems, for example, you're talking about, the more you make way and room for
00:37:35.660
the creativity to flow and, and, and have to just go. And that might be a level of confidence knowing
00:37:42.140
that, Hey, we're going to explore this Avenue. We may not ultimately go down that path, but we have
00:37:47.260
room to explore it through the systems and processes that you've created. Yeah, that's right. That's what
00:37:51.880
routine and order and research is about. So you're not sitting down and going, what am I writing about
00:37:57.960
today? Let's see where, where this takes me. What you are doing is sitting down and going, I'm writing
00:38:03.720
a chapter about the power of walking, or I'm writing a chapter about, you know, controlling your temper.
00:38:11.160
And then I have this material here in front of me that it, these are sort of the root notes that I
00:38:19.080
want to build around, or these are the things that I want to, I think I want to include, but let's see
00:38:27.000
where this goes. And so it's, it's, it's sort of riffing inside of, of a structure that you've built,
00:38:37.880
even if that structure is somewhat temporary, um, you know, chapters end up changing and going
00:38:43.080
in different directions all the time. Uh, but, uh, but yeah, that's how that works.
00:38:48.840
Yeah. It makes sense. I mean, you, you got to have some, some level of parameters. Otherwise,
00:38:52.760
yeah, it's going to look like just a bowl of spaghetti thrown against the wall. It won't be
00:38:56.600
very attractive, right? Well, look, I talked to some writers and they'll be like, Oh yeah, no,
00:39:00.900
I wrote 150,000 words, uh, for my manuscript. And then, you know, the published book was 70,000
00:39:07.800
words and you're like, so you wrote an extra book, right? Ruin the trash. Almost two extra books.
00:39:14.360
Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a, not a good system. Like that, that's what, so doing the, the,
00:39:20.280
the work from the system might seem like less fun or it might seem a bit onerous, but what it's saving
00:39:27.000
you is all the blind alleys and the overlap and the unnecessary things that you didn't need to do in
00:39:34.360
the first place. Yeah. Yeah. I can see how it's a much more efficient way outside of efficiency.
00:39:39.640
And my math was off a little bit there with the two extra books. So forgive me, but outside of the,
00:39:44.760
uh, the efficiency of, of doing it this way, having some systems and the stillness, you know,
00:39:50.880
what are some other benefits that you've experienced as you've incorporated these principles
00:39:54.360
into your life? You mean like artistically, or do you mean like stillness generally in my life?
00:39:59.160
Yeah. Still more stillness, more of the principles and the practices that you outline in the book.
00:40:03.240
Yeah. I mean, look, I don't, I don't think there's anyone that doesn't know what that word
00:40:08.280
stillness means when they hear it. I think we can think of moments in our life when we've
00:40:13.720
experienced it. You know, it was sitting out on a porch swing where it was, you know, watching the
00:40:19.360
snow fall, or it was that moment that you wrote something, or you had that idea that changed your
00:40:25.680
life, or it was that conversation that, you know, you think of, think back to quite often. We know what
00:40:32.080
these moments of stillness are like, and yet they're just like so rare. They just, and it,
00:40:37.040
and it's weird as special as they are and as meaningful as they are to us. It seems weird
00:40:42.400
to me that we just let them happen randomly. We're just like content for them to happen randomly. So,
00:40:48.400
um, for, for me, stillness, it obviously is sort of deeply personal in these moments that I have in my
00:40:54.500
life that are difficult for me to express. A lot of them were quite ordinary where I was just there.
00:41:00.540
I just thought, I love this. I want more of this. So there's lots of moments like that,
00:41:05.160
but, but really I think about it a lot professionally. Like I don't do good work if I am
00:41:13.540
in the middle of, you know, sort of enviously comparing myself to another person, right? I don't
00:41:20.820
have much happiness or freedom in my life if I'm going around, you know, just saying yes to every
00:41:27.960
inquiry and ask and, you know, obligation that the world is throwing at me. So I think stillness for
00:41:34.760
me is about sort of slowing things down, taking control of your life. And then as we were talking
00:41:40.980
about earlier, sort of directing everything you have at whatever is important to you. So whether that's
00:41:48.080
hanging out with my family or whether that's, you know, completing a manuscript, it's, it's,
00:41:52.680
it's ultimately about, you know, bringing the best of yourself to what you're doing.
00:41:57.100
Yeah. It's when you mentioned the, uh, the idea of these experiences are ordinary,
00:42:01.460
it just reminded me or made me think of like not Instagram worthy. Right. And that's one of the
00:42:07.160
traps that I think, gosh, so many people fall into. I fall into it where it's like, you know, I'm,
00:42:12.140
I'm reading books with my kids. And although maybe it's not real exciting for Instagram,
00:42:16.440
it's satisfying, it's fulfilling. I don't need to convince anybody that this is what I should be
00:42:21.480
doing or impress anybody with my reading abilities to, to my children. Like it just isn't something I
00:42:27.300
feel inclined to share or have a desire to. Yeah. So one of the sites I created, I created
00:42:32.260
this site called daily dad, and it's a, an email that goes out for dads every day. And one of the
00:42:38.240
first ones that I wrote about, I wrote about something I actually heard from Jerry Seinfeld in
00:42:42.540
an interview, he was talking about how parents think and speak a lot about quality time. They're
00:42:48.680
like, I gotta have quality time with my kids. Uh, you know, it's all about having these quality
00:42:53.660
experiences. And he's like quality. He's like, the best time is he calls it garbage time. He's like
00:43:00.400
garbage time is, is, you know, like staying up until 3am, just like watching TV on the couch,
00:43:06.180
or it's sitting there eating cereal, or it's, it's driving home from school. Like we go and we seek
00:43:13.280
out these extra special moments. You know, travel is a great example of this. People go, ah, I'm so
00:43:20.420
miserable. I hate my job. I need to get on a plane and I need to fly to Europe. I need to get on a plane
00:43:27.240
and I need to fly to Bali. And there, once I'm there, then I will be happy and good. And it's like,
00:43:34.080
of course you won't because you are bringing yourself along with you.
00:43:41.420
Yeah. Yeah. Baggage is more than just what you put in the overhead compartment. Baggage is what
00:43:45.820
we're carrying around with us. So, so, uh, this, this idea that you need to go somewhere else or do
00:43:52.600
something else or be someone else or accomplish something else to be happy or to, to be still that,
00:43:59.740
that's like one of the most insidious, insidious myths out there. The real, uh, the real happiness
00:44:06.380
and the real stillness comes from, from accessing sort of what you already possess.
00:44:11.840
It seems like you've created that a little bit for yourself in your, your home environment. You
00:44:17.620
know, what little I do see on Instagram. I see you on the, the farm or the ranch. And I see you,
00:44:24.520
Okay. And I see you with the donkeys, right? And so I'm like, Oh, this is somebody who's
00:44:28.640
created something that isn't necessarily like this popular thing, although it brings a sense
00:44:34.020
of joy and satisfaction and fulfillment in his life.
00:44:36.840
Yeah. Look, my son and I went on a seven mile bike ride on a dirt road this morning,
00:44:41.520
like looking at cows and just hanging out. And I did that. My phone, I left my phone inside.
00:44:47.880
Uh, you know, it was, it was early in the morning. We watched the sun come up. There was no one
00:44:52.960
bothering us. There was nothing going on. We were just sort of present and experiencing just like
00:44:59.840
the order. I mean, it wasn't like the greatest sunrise of all time. And it wasn't, you know,
00:45:04.400
through the grand Canyon, it was just, you know, an ordinary experience. And yet it's also deeply
00:45:12.920
sort of special and meaningful if you choose for it to be that.
00:45:16.700
Sure. You know, I think though, the, the natural inclination for the average person is to say,
00:45:24.000
is to say something like, well, that's easy for you to say, or that's easy for you to do because
00:45:28.820
you've created this business and you make this income and you have this lifestyle, but I, I have
00:45:35.060
to go to work. I have to do this. I have these obligation responsibilities. Somehow they're,
00:45:41.540
Yeah. It's, it is interesting on the one hand. Yeah, sure. There's all of us are privileged in
00:45:48.120
the sense that we're alive right now, as opposed to a hundred years ago, uh, or a thousand years
00:45:53.360
ago, we're privileged that we're talking here in America. We're privileged that we're talking in a
00:45:57.760
time of peace. Yeah. We're privileged that we're not a persecuted minority or, or, or, or any of these
00:46:04.080
things, but it is interesting, you know, me being able to go on a bike ride with my son in the
00:46:10.020
morning. That wasn't, uh, I wasn't able to do that because I'm rich. I'm able to, that didn't cost
00:46:16.540
anything. You know what I mean? I, I, uh, I could do that, uh, anywhere at any time that walk could
00:46:22.640
have been, uh, through the parking lot at the, you know, at the daycare before he goes in the
00:46:28.500
morning. It could have been there. There's so many circumstances in which the exact same experience
00:46:33.540
could be had. And I think, uh, people, what people don't realize is that it's not, it's not
00:46:40.580
privilege that creates these moments as in you have this because of all you have. It's that those
00:46:47.520
moments are possible because of the things that I say no to, right? Because I choose not to be
00:46:54.340
traveling this week or because I choose not to be doing X, Y, or Z to make extra money. Um, it's not
00:47:01.500
that I don't need those things, uh, or want those things. It's that I chose this thing instead of
00:47:09.020
that thing. And everyone has that power. Obviously there, there's variability, you know, I'm riding a
00:47:16.400
nicer bicycle than I would if I worked at McDonald's, you know, I I'm coming back to a nicer house than if
00:47:22.960
X, Y, or Z. But like, I also made a lot of decisions in my life to prioritize this thing versus
00:47:29.800
another thing. I think it's so important that you're talking about conscious decision because
00:47:34.500
a lot of people, what they'll do is they'll subject themselves to the mercy of their environment. Like
00:47:39.380
I had to do it. I just, I have to say, well, you didn't have to, you, you made that decision for a
00:47:45.020
reason. Sure. The thing that I think a lot of people fall prey to is this, this fear of missing out
00:47:49.900
thing, right? Of course. Because they're not conscious about their life. Like my thought is that if,
00:47:56.220
if there's a party or a concert or a conference or whatever it is that you feel like you're missing
00:48:01.160
out on, that you haven't made a conscious decision to, to deliberately say no to this because you want
00:48:08.980
to spend time with your kids or because you want to write your novel that you're in the process of
00:48:14.960
or practice the guitar or hunt or do whatever it is you do, make those conscious decisions
00:48:20.700
starts to address that issue of fear of missing out. Yeah, I think that's right. And, and, and
00:48:27.420
look, part of the lifestyle decision I made by sort of living where I live, which is in Texas,
00:48:32.620
instead of California or New York, is that there is less for me to have to say no to, right? Like
00:48:39.280
that was a, you know, that decision, sure. It's much cheaper to live where I live, which allows
00:48:45.160
certain freedoms, but you know, I don't, I don't know if I could put a number on it, but certainly
00:48:50.800
the decision to not live in Los Angeles or New York has a very real financial implication for me.
00:48:58.280
There's, I literally am missing out on a number of deals or projects or relationships by nature of not
00:49:06.860
being in those places. Um, but because I'm not aware of what I'm missing out on, I don't think
00:49:15.080
about it. Right. And so it becomes easier to say, no, I don't want to go to that dinner tonight.
00:49:20.680
If I live in Texas, then if I live in New York city, because in New York city, it's 16 blocks away
00:49:29.240
and I feel much more obligated to, to attend. It probably not going to rise to the level of
00:49:35.480
importance that I want to get on a plane to go to a dinner. But if it is, you know, that is probably
00:49:41.080
really important. Right. Yeah. So, so put, so putting some artificial constraints and filters,
00:49:46.460
as we've been talking about has, has some benefits in ways that people don't, don't often think about.
00:49:53.380
Um, but, but have a huge impact on your quality of life. Yeah. I mean, I think it also has to do with
00:49:59.540
a healthy realization or expectation of the cost of doing something and there's a cost, right?
00:50:05.480
There's a, there's a, and there's a cost of not doing something right. If you don't go to LA and
00:50:09.920
take that deal, that's a lost opportunity cost. But if you did, what would be the cost of doing
00:50:16.620
it? Right. There's a cost of action and a cost of inaction and you have to weigh those things
00:50:20.120
consciously. Yeah. Yeah. And you have to be intentional. I think what we're talking about
00:50:24.520
is how do you intentionally live your life rather than just get sort of whipsawed around by
00:50:30.420
what showed up in your inbox. I like as a more benign version, like one of the reasons I think
00:50:36.040
spending less time on social media is good is then you are choosing your mood rather than the
00:50:43.140
algorithm deciding to show you a tweet from Donald Trump six minutes after you woke up,
00:50:49.340
which happens to be upsetting to you. Right. Or conversely, it could be a tweet from,
00:50:53.480
you know, like you're, you're, this has no political implications whatsoever. People wake
00:50:59.560
up, they pull up Instagram and then they see so-and-so is doing better than them. And now
00:51:05.920
they are unhappy. And so this sort of letting your mood be determined by random inputs is a really
00:51:13.760
fragile place to be. And a place that I don't find leads to much, much happiness.
00:51:20.140
Do you feel like you've scaled back? I mean, Instagram is where I'm most active and I don't
00:51:25.660
see a whole lot of engagement from you there. Do you feel like you've deliberately scaled back on
00:51:31.640
the social media usage? Uh, very, very much so. And very intentionally in January, I quit Facebook.
00:51:39.680
Uh, so I, I still have an account that someone manages for me as part of my business. Uh, but then,
00:51:45.860
uh, I, I don't personally have an account that I use to check my feed. Uh, I found that had a huge
00:51:51.880
impact on my happiness and my productivity. Uh, I don't use any social media on my phone.
00:51:58.500
So I check Twitter occasionally on my computer. I see if, uh, you know, someone that I need to talk
00:52:03.640
to is sending me a message or whatever. Um, and then on Instagram, I have an account. I post on it
00:52:09.720
regularly, but I don't have it on my phone. It's on my wife's phone. Uh, and so, uh, you know,
00:52:16.020
I'll text her a picture and say, Hey, will you post this when you get a sec? Uh, or, or I'll grab her
00:52:20.880
phone when I get home and I'll do it real fast. But the idea is like, I don't want it within arm's
00:52:25.960
reach of myself at all times. It's, it's like, look, some people can drink and some people can't
00:52:31.540
drink. Uh, and, and you've got to know like what the different mediums, what effect the different
00:52:38.340
mediums have on you personally. Some people can watch the news and, you know, uh, not be upset by
00:52:45.560
it. Other people like me get made very unhappy and miserable by the news. So I don't watch a lot
00:52:50.940
of news either, but I, but that's not to say I'm not informed. I just choose the mediums through which
00:52:56.700
I get my information. Right. And that's a great point. And it's funny because I, I've heard people
00:53:00.880
say things like, you know, if you have to place those restrictions on alcohol or social media use or
00:53:06.840
whatever, whatever it is that it's weakness. And I'm like, it's not weakness to set up parameters
00:53:11.060
and systems to keep you on a path that you've chosen to walk. Like that's a tool at your disposal
00:53:16.600
that doesn't make you weak. It actually makes you a master of that thing. Yeah. I would think it's the
00:53:21.780
opposite of, of, of weakness, choosing to lift a heavy weight or choosing not to eat X, Y, or Z is,
00:53:30.100
is an exercise of strength, uh, both willpower and then literal muscular strength.
00:53:36.300
Yeah. Great point. Uh, you know, I made a couple of, uh, little asterisks by some of these, uh,
00:53:41.960
topics that I want to discuss with you, like saying, no, I think we've hit that one pretty well.
00:53:46.760
Uh, one of the ones that you did just briefly mentioned was, uh, accepting a higher power.
00:53:54.720
Yeah. So I'm, I'm not someone who's religious. I don't go to church. Uh, I've been an atheist most
00:54:00.000
of my life, uh, most of my adult life, but when you look at the literature about stillness and when
00:54:08.100
you read history, the inescapable conclusion is that most of the wisest, stillest, calmest people
00:54:17.440
believed in some kind of higher power. Um, whether that was the universe, whether that was what the
00:54:24.060
Stoics called the logos, whether that was fate, um, whether that's a Christian God or, or, uh, you
00:54:31.720
know, uh, the gods plural for the ancient Greeks, the, the idea of some kind of higher power. And
00:54:38.060
look, there's a reason in 12 step programs, they, they ask you to accept a higher power because it's
00:54:44.720
about surrender. It's about letting go. It's about, uh, giving up some of the destructive control
00:54:52.200
we have over ourselves. And it's about, I think, ultimately humility. And so, um, this isn't that
00:54:58.640
I don't write my books from a place of necessarily my own sort of full belief, but I write them from
00:55:07.160
a place of what, where I'm trying to go and get. And so this is something I think about a lot and
00:55:12.880
I'm working on myself and I'm constantly sort of exploring and pursuing different avenues,
00:55:17.380
but yeah, ultimately I think it's very hard to be still as a nihilist or, or, or, you know,
00:55:26.500
less so as an atheist, but I think still believing that, that there's no purpose to anything that it's
00:55:31.960
all meaningless and random is a, is a hard pill to swallow. Uh, at, so at this stage in your life,
00:55:39.060
how would you describe your higher power? Um, I mean, I would say I was probably been an atheist
00:55:44.920
since college. And I, I think as I've researched and thought about this more, I've, I've moved sort
00:55:49.960
of firmly in the camp of, of, of being an agnostic, which in the true sense means you, you just don't
00:55:56.200
know, right. It's not an atheist believes in the way that a Christian believes, uh, that they know what
00:56:03.520
the state of things is. So I, I, I've, I've come to a place where it's like, I just don't know.
00:56:09.500
Uh, and, and, and what I do know is that a huge, if not the vast majority of things that happen,
00:56:19.460
I have absolutely no control over. And so it's not that someone is choosing those things necessarily,
00:56:26.980
but I, I can admit quite readily that I'm not choosing those things. And so what you can accept
00:56:33.900
is it just this idea of sort of surrender or a sense of, of submission to this idea that,
00:56:42.580
that, uh, a large percentage of what's happening, uh, is, is just completely beyond us.
00:56:48.540
That that's, uh, and isn't that so liberating? I mean, that's a very stoic thought, right?
00:56:52.920
Control what you can control, let go of the uncontrollable, right? Yeah. I mean, but,
00:56:56.980
but how liberating is it to, to say, you know, I'm not going to focus on the uncontrollables
00:57:02.020
anymore. I mean, just think of what you eliminate from your, from, from your plate just by accepting
00:57:08.480
that thought right there alone. Totally. Totally. You are taking, most people are spending most of
00:57:14.860
their time thinking about worrying about having opinions about things that are not up to them.
00:57:21.820
And so if you can go, look, somebody is doing this, something is doing most of this. I'm just
00:57:27.620
going to focus here on what I do control, which is mostly my own thoughts, my own actions,
00:57:32.420
my own beliefs. Um, I'm going to have more resources than those people.
00:57:38.140
It's funny because I think there's a lot of people out there who believe that, and I've had this
00:57:42.500
because I wrote a book called sovereignty, which is about claiming individual and personal
00:57:46.280
responsibility for yourself. But at the same time, I happen to be spiritual and religious
00:57:51.440
and believe in, in a Christian God. Sure. But I had a lot of people come back with, well, how do
00:57:58.280
you, how do you reconcile being an individual, being sovereign with submitting to a higher power?
00:58:03.240
For me, I don't think they're at odds with each other. I think I've chosen as a sovereign man to
00:58:08.780
walk that path. Sure. Sure. Look, we have a hard time reconciling that. Yeah. Look, you're still,
00:58:15.280
you're still choosing, right? You're still choosing to do that. The stoic, uh, sort of metaphor is they
00:58:22.260
say that we're a dog tied to a cart or a wagon. So it's going and you can choose to lay down and be
00:58:30.300
dragged, or you can sort of cheerfully run alongside, but the choice is yours. Right. And I think that's a
00:58:37.920
good way of thinking about it because, you know, ultimately the world's just doesn't care about you.
00:58:44.020
It doesn't have an opinion about you. Um, as if you believe in God, ultimately you believe that God
00:58:50.040
cares about you, but you can't, you can't, as much as he cares about you as an individual, you also have
00:58:56.300
to look at history and look at all the horrible and surprising and, you know, undesirable things that
00:59:01.800
have happened to millions and billions of people. So, so the idea that you're going to get everything
00:59:06.740
that you want in this life is just, you know, ludicrous. It is. You've, it, it, any way you
00:59:13.840
crack it, you ultimately, it comes back to this idea of some, some sort of submission to these larger
00:59:19.840
forces, whatever they happen to be. Yeah. It's interesting. It reminds me of, um, in high school,
00:59:25.020
I remember we got to a playoff game in baseball and it was the first round of the playoffs. And I,
00:59:30.640
we were up, we must've been up maybe three or four to one. And I remember praying,
00:59:34.620
saying, God, help us win this game. And almost instantaneously, I also had the thought
00:59:40.480
there's guys in the other dugout right now that are the same thing. So who does he pick?
00:59:46.600
Right. The conclusion I came to was he doesn't care whether you win this game or not is irrelevant
00:59:51.320
in the grand scheme of things. Yes. I believe he wants you to be happy and fulfilled just like
00:59:55.760
a father would want his son to be happy and fulfilled. Sure. But I can't make my choices or excuse
01:00:01.540
me. I can't make my son's or my daughter's choices. Right. I have to make those choices
01:00:05.840
and I'll support however I can. That's right. Yeah. That's right. Well, the other one that stuck
01:00:10.480
out to me is, uh, in, in the soul component of things. And this is something I personally dealt
01:00:15.280
with. And I know a lot of men are dealing with this as well is learning to conquer anger. Yeah.
01:00:19.900
Something a lot of men deal with. And I know that just through my own work and trying to let go of
01:00:24.940
some resentment and animosity and things that are, that are upsetting to me has, has been very
01:00:31.080
liberating. Yeah. I'm actually working on a course about this for, for daily stoic.com, like a sort of
01:00:36.520
an anger based challenge, which should come out pretty soon. But I do, I, I, everyone has anger.
01:00:43.160
Everyone has pain. I don't think there's anyone, uh, there, there's no one who's ever lost their
01:00:49.880
temper and thought, I'm really glad I did that. You know what I mean? That was a really positive
01:00:55.020
thing that really helped the situation. Yeah. So, so anger is, uh, that's not to say everyone
01:01:01.120
has an anger problem, but anger is a problem for all of us at one time or another. And I would also
01:01:08.840
say that it's the enemy of stillness, right? You, you cannot, uh, you cannot feel good while you are
01:01:15.380
feeling anger. And that is the irony of anger is that you are primarily the person who is punished
01:01:21.260
by it, right? It there, that's not to say that anger doesn't cause a lot of painful consequences
01:01:26.920
for other people. Um, but pick someone with a really bad temper and really bad anger and ask
01:01:34.600
yourself, is it fun to be them? Right? Like, and the answer is almost always no, even though they're,
01:01:41.000
they could be very rich and very successful and have a wonderful life. It, it, it, anger is actually
01:01:47.840
this thing that's, you know, preventing them from enjoying that. Do you think anger stems from at its
01:01:55.160
root, uh, trying to control things that are beyond your control or where do you, where would you say
01:02:00.780
that stems from? I think often, often it's from trying to control things you, you can't control.
01:02:06.360
I think it's often rooted in taking things personally that have nothing to do with you.
01:02:11.800
I think it's often sort of giving oneself over to one's emotions rather than being sort of
01:02:17.380
intentional. Um, so I, I think there's a lot of causes of anger, but I would say very few of them
01:02:23.320
are, are healthy. Um, there are almost always better ways to go. That's not to say anger can't
01:02:29.340
be a tool. That's not to say, you know, it, it can't have short term benefits. You know,
01:02:34.640
it can certainly be a powerful motivator, but it often, you know, turns getting whatever you
01:02:41.900
wanted to get into being less enjoyable than it could be when you finally get it.
01:02:46.720
Yeah. Yeah. Great point. You know, the other thing I think about too, with emotions,
01:02:49.880
and this is something that's, that's talked about quite a lot when it comes to men is I don't know
01:02:56.280
that, I think it's okay to be angry and use that as emotion, uh, as a tool, but to display anger,
01:03:04.440
is probably counterproductive. Like you can be angry about something and then great. Now,
01:03:09.240
what is your course of action? Sure. But to display it is I think where you start to get in
01:03:14.560
trouble. Yeah. Although there's some exceptions to that rule too. I mean, I've talked to a lot of
01:03:19.400
basketball coaches that sort of talk about how they'll use anger to fire up their team, or they'll
01:03:24.560
get a technical on, on, on purpose to send a message. You know, they're a leader can sometimes
01:03:31.580
use targeted bits of anger, but the point is, and the anger shouldn't be leading. The anger should
01:03:38.580
be, I don't want to say it's acting, but the anger is being deliberately used as a tool rather than you
01:03:45.400
are in the sway of the anger and the anger is the thing making the decisions. Yeah. Controlling it
01:03:50.800
rather than it controlling you. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Cause you talk about even, even with, uh, I think you,
01:03:56.580
you went into, uh, Michael Jordan on the, on the subject of anger and was he really angry? Did he
01:04:01.980
use that anger? Like how was, how did that play out for him? Right? Exactly. Yes. And, and, uh,
01:04:07.660
if you, when you watch the Michael Jordan hall of fame speech, you see just how toxic, uh, anger can
01:04:14.060
end up being for people. Yeah. If you let it consume you, if you use it correctly, again, powerful tool.
01:04:19.880
That's why I tell people, I tell people is, is there's not really a negative emotion. Like
01:04:25.020
emotions are there to serve us. Even the ones we would consider quote unquote negative, they're
01:04:31.180
there to serve us and help us. It's what you do with it that determines whether it's negative or
01:04:36.000
positive. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Well, Ryan, this has been fascinating. I know we talked
01:04:41.640
about a bunch of different things, obviously. And, and I don't know, there's 30 something points in
01:04:46.060
here we could talk about. We won't get to all of them for the sake of time, but just go by the book.
01:04:49.680
That's, that's the easy answer. Just by the book. Yeah, please, please. Uh, I want to ask you a
01:04:54.300
couple of questions as we, as we close things down. Uh, the first one is what does it mean to be a man?
01:05:00.120
Um, to me, uh, uh, a man is, is someone who takes care of what they have to take care of. A man is
01:05:07.340
responsible for themselves, uh, for their emotions. A man is, is responsible generally. I don't remember
01:05:14.400
what I answered last time. I hope it's similar to that, but to me, um, a man sort of steps
01:05:19.560
up and does what they need to do. So I, I don't necessarily even, uh, think, uh, it needs to be
01:05:25.360
that gendered as a term to me being a man is, is doing, uh, what you got to do.
01:05:31.280
Right on. Appreciate it. How do we connect with you? Obviously we can pick up a copy of the book
01:05:35.420
on Amazon or wherever you're going to do your thing, but, uh, how do we connect more with you?
01:05:38.720
Yeah. So I'm at Ryan holiday on, on pretty much most platforms. Uh, you can check out my site,
01:05:44.400
which is Ryan holiday.net. Uh, daily stoic is daily stoic.com and then daily dad, which I hope
01:05:49.540
everyone checks out. It probably, I think would be a fit for this audience. I write it every single
01:05:53.680
morning. It's just daily dad.com. Perfect. And then you said there was a, uh, an anger course of
01:06:00.240
sorts coming out. Is that available yet? Or it's not available yet, but it'll be up on,
01:06:04.180
on daily stoic.com. If you sign up for the email, right on, we'll sync everything up. So the guys
01:06:08.640
know where to go. Thanks man. Best wishes on the launch, man. I want to tell you, I appreciate
01:06:12.500
you and all your work. It's been valuable in my life and certainly helped me be more stoic in my
01:06:17.000
approach to family and business and everything else. It's, it's served me greatly. So I appreciate
01:06:20.880
it. Awesome, man. Well, thanks for, for, uh, for having me on again and for, for staying at me to do
01:06:26.040
it. I'm glad I did. You bet, brother. Gentlemen, there you go. The conversation with the one and only
01:06:32.260
Ryan holiday. I hope you enjoyed that one as much as I did. His new book came out today.
01:06:36.820
Stillness is the key. So I would highly, highly recommend that you pick up a copy, especially if
01:06:41.660
you're somebody who wants to develop a greater sense of stillness and fulfillment and satisfaction
01:06:46.860
in your life. Again, I've read it. Uh, I was fortunate enough to get an advanced copy and I'm
01:06:51.440
telling you what, it's a great book and has helped me implement some practices that have let me be a
01:06:56.640
little bit more still and fulfilled in my life, in my chaotic life, just like you guys have as
01:07:02.160
well. Uh, make sure you connect with Ryan on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, wherever you're
01:07:06.500
doing the social media thing. He talked about that in the podcast, pick up a copy of the book,
01:07:10.160
connect with me as well. Let me know what you thought about the show. And if you would too,
01:07:13.740
I'm very, very active on Instagram mostly. So if you feel so inclined, please share this show in
01:07:21.180
your Instagram stories, in your Instagram feed, let other men in your life know that you listened to
01:07:26.040
this and you found value in what we're doing here with regards to reclaiming and restoring
01:07:30.760
masculinity. So over on Instagram at Ryan Mickler, and then also very, very active on YouTube.
01:07:37.460
I think in the past, I want to say two weeks, maybe a little over, we've picked up close to
01:07:41.960
11,000 new subscribers over on YouTube. So the channel is starting to take off and blow up a
01:07:46.980
little bit. And I'm honored to have you over there. You can watch the video podcast and everything that
01:07:52.100
we're doing here. Of course, we've got the video podcast with me and Ryan over on YouTube as well.
01:07:56.280
That's youtube.com slash order of man. All right, guys, that's all I've got for you today. We'll
01:08:01.800
be back tomorrow for Kip and I's ask me anything. But until then go out there, take action and become
01:08:08.280
a man you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take
01:08:13.460
charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order