Order of Man - Stop Being So Nice ｜ DR. AZIZ GAZIPURA

00:00:00.000 One of the most common challenges I see men face is their inability to overcome being too nice.

00:00:05.600 Now, don't get me wrong, being nice is great, but when it comes at the expense

00:00:09.440 of your own well-being, it becomes a problem. So today, I am joined by psychologist Dr. Aziz

00:00:15.360 Ghazipura to talk about the pitfalls of being too nice. We cover what he calls the guilt bubble

00:00:20.800 and how to get out of it, the cost of being overly nice, learning to speak up and develop

00:00:26.280 healthy boundaries, and how to stop being so nice. You're a man of action. You live life to the

00:00:31.660 fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back

00:00:37.200 up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:44.780 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day,

00:00:50.160 and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:00:53.960 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler, and I am the host and the founder

00:00:59.040 of this podcast, The Order of Man. I want to welcome you back. I want to welcome you here.

00:01:04.120 Guys, we've got to blow up this mission. We really do. I look around, and I see more and more

00:01:09.180 challenges with what it means to be a man. I see more and more society dismissing it. I see more and

00:01:15.100 more confusion about what it means to be a man, and of course, I see the fallout and the results,

00:01:19.560 the negative results of having less men who are willing to step up, who are able to step

00:01:24.940 up, and this podcast is leading the charge with regards to recapturing and reclaiming

00:01:31.920 what it means to be a man, but we've got to blow this thing up. So guys, if you've been

00:01:35.160 around for any amount of time, please, if you would, share this. Leave the rating and review.

00:01:40.540 Tell a friend, a colleague, a neighbor, a brother, your father, a coworker, whoever it may be,

00:01:44.900 about the mission, which is helping men protect, provide, preside, and helping them step fully

00:01:50.520 into their role as men inside the walls of their home and in their businesses and in the

00:01:54.640 community. Guys, I really appreciate your help. We could not do this without you, and

00:01:59.200 it's pretty amazing. It's absolutely incredible to me to see how far we've come and how much

00:02:04.600 we've been growing and the messages that I receive from you and from everybody else who

00:02:10.900 are improving their lives, improving their relationships, getting back in shape, getting

00:02:16.440 promotions, getting career advancements, making more money, being better fathers, re-engaging

00:02:21.380 their wives, doing all of the things that we're trying to do. And of course, this podcast is

00:02:25.460 just a sliver of what we're providing in order to help you do that. But I need your help.

00:02:29.100 My part is to bring you the conversations and the resources and the guests. Your part is to

00:02:32.840 share what you know, share what you learn, and help engage other men in this battle. In addition

00:02:38.780 to that, and before we get into the show, I want to mention something that I got in the

00:02:42.400 mail the other day. I think I've already had mentioned this. I got a surprise package

00:02:46.900 from my friends over at Origin. A lot of you guys are familiar with their partnership with

00:02:51.920 Jocko, with their protein supplement and their other supplements, Joint Warfare, Super

00:02:56.220 Krill, things like that, and their Mulk, which is their protein supplement. Well, I got in

00:03:01.000 the mail the other day, by surprise, a Warrior Kid Mulk, the chocolate, and I also got the

00:03:07.700 strawberry. I don't want to...

00:03:08.780 Fill my kids with a bunch of sugary drinks and everything like that. And specifically,

00:03:12.160 my two oldest boys have seen me take the Mulk and they wanted to do it. And it was pretty

00:03:15.980 timely that this came in. So if you've got little athletes, little sons and daughters who want to

00:03:21.600 improve their fitness and they see what you're doing and the protein that you might be taking,

00:03:26.340 then I would encourage you to check out the Warrior Kid Mulk by Origin and partnered with

00:03:31.980 Jocko. So you can go to originmain.com. You can check it out there. You can get their geese,

00:03:37.440 their rash guards, their training equipment, their protein, their supplements, everything that

00:03:41.180 they're doing over there. I don't know if I'm supposed to say it or not, but it looks like

00:03:44.500 they've got some new jeans coming out next year as well. So they're doing very well on the lifestyle

00:03:50.240 apparel as well. Again, check it out guys, originmain.com. And when you head over there,

00:03:54.740 make sure you use the code ORDER, O-R-D-E-R. You're going to get 10% off on anything that

00:03:59.320 you purchase. Again, originmain.com and then use the code ORDER. So guys, that's what I wanted to

00:04:05.520 share with you by way of announcements. Now let's get into the conversation with my guest,

00:04:10.040 Dr. Aziz. He's a clinical psychologist. Frankly, he's one of the world's leading experts on social

00:04:15.440 confidence. He started his Center for Social Confidence in 2011. It's dedicated to helping everyone

00:04:22.640 break through shyness, through social anxiety, through all the struggles that I know a lot of

00:04:28.040 men have. He's helped thousands of people all over the world increase confidence. And he does this

00:04:32.820 through coaching, his video programs, podcasts like this one. He's got a blog. He does workshops.

00:04:37.720 He does it all. And it helps him live out his mission, which is to help every person who's stuck

00:04:42.220 in shyness, liberate themselves to pursue relationship, career, and life that they've always

00:04:47.980 dreamed of. Most recently, he wrote a book titled, Not Nice, which is subtitled, Stop Pleasing People,

00:04:53.800 Staying Silent, and Feeling Guilty, which is what he's here to talk with us about today. So guys,

00:04:58.660 sit back, take some notes if need be, and learn how to not be so nice.

00:05:05.420 Aziz, thanks for joining me on the show today.

00:05:07.180 Thank you, Ryan. I'm excited to be here.

00:05:08.840 Yeah, we were introduced by a mutual friend, Brett McKay over at The Art of Manliness. And man,

00:05:13.460 I've been looking forward to this conversation because this idea of niceness and not being so

00:05:18.300 nice and trying to figure out what this is like. And I know there's a lot of guys who struggle with

00:05:22.940 this quote unquote, nice guy syndrome. So this is very timely and something on a lot of guys'

00:05:28.320 minds. Absolutely. And it's complicated in a way. It's not just one size fits all. And that's why I

00:05:34.480 love talking about it because there's so much nuance. There's so much potential to feel way better

00:05:39.660 in so many subtle ways. And that's the hard part too, when you're talking about being nice.

00:05:44.400 I mean, that could mean so many different things. Some people think it's being passive. Some people

00:05:48.760 think it's pleasing everybody else. And certainly there's elements of that, of course, to being

00:05:53.420 nice. But let's create some of the framework and the baseline for what we're talking about. When

00:05:58.140 you're talking about being nice, what does that even mean? What are you referring to?

00:06:03.140 Sure. That's a great starting point because without that, we can lose a lot of people because they

00:06:06.860 they might think, well, nice, that means being kind, compassionate, caring, considerate.

00:06:11.740 Which are all good traits.

00:06:13.220 Right. Yeah. Those are virtues that we want. I make a distinction in my book, Not Nice,

00:06:17.280 which is that those are actually different things to be kind, caring, compassionate, and generous. And

00:06:22.080 in most ways, when we think of nice, there's a subtle undertone of basically fear-based trying to

00:06:30.180 preserve safety and connection, whether that's trying to get the approval of others,

00:06:34.460 trying to make sure that others either really like us and want to stay or don't leave. And also,

00:06:40.720 usually by pleasing them, as you said, being passive, not saying no. So it's like a fearful

00:06:46.740 way of trying to stay connected and safe. And that's different than being compassionate or loving,

00:06:54.480 because even if we might look compassionate and loving, if it's coming from that fearful place,

00:06:59.320 like, okay, I'll give to you so you don't leave me, it's very different energetically, emotionally,

00:07:04.060 than someone who's like, yes, I genuinely want to give to you in this moment. So it comes from choice,

00:07:09.960 whereas the niceness eliminates our sense of choice. We just have to do it or else we're bad,

00:07:16.400 or else we feel guilty, or else we feel anxious.

00:07:18.420 And what's interesting about it is to me, in a lot of ways, when you're talking about

00:07:23.120 the selfish nature of it, which is to get other people to do what I want, essentially is how I

00:07:28.640 look at it. It's a roundabout way of doing that, but it's self-sabotaging. You know,

00:07:32.500 I found in my own life, because I used to be the, what I would refer to as the nice guy,

00:07:36.280 that the more I tried to be nice to other people, quote unquote, nice in the definition we just

00:07:40.520 described, the more that people were not attracted to me, but repelled by me. And so it was really

00:07:47.640 interesting that we, as human beings, take on this strategy, whether it's conscious or subconscious.

00:07:54.260 And it's actually, in my perspective, producing the exact opposite result of what we're trying

00:07:59.000 to accomplish. Yeah. And what I find so tragically humorous about that, because I lived it myself,

00:08:05.680 it's not working. And our only solution is to double down and be like, oh, that didn't work. I

00:08:12.220 better be more nice. Yeah. Well, I think the reason that is, and correct me if I'm wrong,

00:08:16.000 because you've got the background and the data with this, but I think the reason we do that is 0.98

00:08:19.040 because we look at it and think, well, the opposite is being an asshole and nobody wants 0.99

00:08:23.100 to be an asshole, right? So maybe I'm just not being nice in the right way. I don't know. That's, 0.99

00:08:29.060 that's what I'm assuming happens. I think so. I think you're absolutely right. There's basically,

00:08:33.540 it's all or nothing. Two strategies is all we got. Either be really nice, which means

00:08:39.240 basically do what others want, give their needs, desires, preferences, opinions, much more power, 1.00

00:08:48.400 credence and validity than our own, or, you know, be this asshole. It was really interesting because 1.00

00:08:54.360 I've talked to a lot of people about this in my work. When, when you start to uncover,

00:08:59.480 in fact, I'll ask clients this like, great, just imagine you were an asshole in this situation. 0.99

00:09:04.380 Whether it's a dating scenario, a work scenario, what would you do? And sometimes they, they throw 0.99

00:09:08.760 out some crazy first joking answer, you know, like I'd punch him in the face. Then we all laugh. 0.99

00:09:13.780 And I say, great, no, no, seriously, what would you do? And then they start to explore it more.

00:09:18.340 And it's actually what I would consider healthy assertiveness, but to them, it feels like I'm 1.00

00:09:24.660 being this terrible person, this asshole. And that story keeps them living out the nice pattern 0.99

00:09:29.940 again and again.

00:09:30.600 Why do they feel that assertiveness, and we can talk a little bit more specifically about that,

00:09:34.680 but why would somebody default to believing that assertiveness is aggressiveness?

00:09:40.440 It's a lack of calibration. It's sort of like, it's either I'm nice or I'm bad. And so anything

00:09:46.400 outside of this little sphere of niceness is bad. So there's no distinction. There's no like,

00:09:51.200 well, that's aggressive. That's assertive. That's too much. That's just right. It's all the dark

00:09:56.500 territory. We've never been there. It's a, in a lot of work after my day, it's like,

00:10:00.600 the fog of war. You can't see beyond the edge of the map. It's all bad. And that's, I think,

00:10:06.300 by design, because the roots of this niceness goes back to our earliest attachments in life

00:10:11.780 with family, with caregivers. And there is a deep training of our nervous system that says,

00:10:18.060 you be this way or else you're going to lose something big. You're going to lose love.

00:10:21.680 You're going to lose connection. You're going to lose safety. And so that's, as adults,

00:10:26.440 flash forward 20, 30, 40 years, we're really scared to test it. And so we just keep living

00:10:31.320 out that pattern.

00:10:32.740 I don't want to say what is the solution, because obviously we're talking about a very complex issue

00:10:36.380 and I can't just jump right into the solution, but how would one begin to explore in what you said,

00:10:41.800 testing a more assertive way of living their life?

00:10:46.180 Yeah, I love it. I think we should be talking about the solution as much as possible because

00:10:50.100 that's how we, I mean, being able to identify the problem is just the first step.

00:10:53.500 And maybe people think, well, obviously I'd have to speak up for myself more. I'd have to do all

00:10:57.500 these things. And yes, that's part of the solution to act more assertively, but that's very hard to

00:11:04.980 just start doing because of our psychology. And so we need to upgrade our map of what it means to be a

00:11:12.280 quote, good person or what it means to have healthy relationships. And there's a few key things that we

00:11:18.060 want to really see. One is that it is good to be able to put others first sometimes.

00:11:25.940 Right. I mean, there's situations I can think of, for example, being a father where yes, I will have

00:11:31.200 to place my children's needs before my own. And that only makes sense in that situation, but it

00:11:36.820 doesn't mean that that's my default way of living.

00:11:39.060 Right. And what I've found really interesting about that father example is even then there's

00:11:44.220 moment to moment questions of what goes where, whose needs go first in this moment. So just this

00:11:49.440 morning, I'm making my breakfast and the boys have their breakfast. Then my youngest son, two and a

00:11:55.400 half, climbs on the counter, knocks over his oatmeal and spills all over the floor. And so I clean it up.

00:12:02.000 And then he's like, I want more oats. And I'm like, okay, bud, hold on a second. I'm going to finish

00:12:07.220 making my breakfast and then I'll start your oats. And so it was just about 30 more seconds to put my

00:12:12.600 stuff in there and then start eating it. So I, you know, that might seem like such a trivial example,

00:12:16.540 but you'd be amazed at how much we can default to, I must do what other people want or else I'm bad.

00:12:24.180 That is so true. I've seen this play out in my own life. I've seen it play out in countless of men's

00:12:30.480 lives, serving somebody else. That's fine. There's no problem with that, but make sure that you're also

00:12:35.940 in conjunction serving yourself and that you are taking care of yourself so that you are more capable of

00:12:41.780 serving others. Right. And it's one of those things that people intellectually would nod their

00:12:48.540 head and say, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, the classic example of self-help is to put the airline,

00:12:54.900 put the mask on yourself first and people nod and say, ha ha, very good, very good. But then in our

00:12:59.380 lives, emotionally, we feel so uncomfortable doing that, that we don't. And we have to really

00:13:06.380 consciously upgrade our map and say, okay, being able to have healthy self-interest. I have a chapter

00:13:14.560 in the book called Be More Selfish and it's designed to be somewhat controversial in that title. But in

00:13:19.840 there, I describe what I would call healthy self-interest, where you're able to come to a

00:13:24.180 place of choice and quickly assess the situation. You know, what do I need? What do they need? What do

00:13:29.320 they want? How intense are each of our situations and our needs? What's going to be the best choice

00:13:34.280 for me? Now, you know, do we always pick quote perfectly? No, but we're at least more at choice

00:13:39.180 and really getting that that is not only allowed, but healthy and anything else that you learned

00:13:46.780 from upbringing or family or past codependent relationships or something where that was

00:13:51.540 wrong is just an inaccurate map of relationships. And so we want to upgrade that.

00:13:57.100 When you're talking about map, I just want to butt in here for a second, because to define when

00:14:01.120 you're talking about upgrading our map, you're talking about the way that we've wired our brain

00:14:07.180 through experiences and cultures and beliefs and backgrounds. And then we're using that as an

00:14:14.040 operating system for the way in which we make decisions and act out our life. Am I on the right

00:14:18.700 track here? Absolutely. I mean, I would think of it as like, okay, my map is to my destination,

00:14:24.980 you know, open up Google maps or whatever and say, I want to get to a destination X on my phone.

00:14:29.740 And that would be like, I want to have a loving relationship where I feel good,

00:14:33.600 they feel good and we're connected. And then your Google map says, turn right here,

00:14:38.260 turn left there, do this, do that. If that map information is outdated, is inaccurate, is false,

00:14:45.740 then it's going to say, turn left here and you arrive at your destination. And then you turn left

00:14:50.020 and you're like, where the hell am I? Yeah. And that's how it is with our old maps. It's like,

00:14:54.560 be pleasing, give to the other person. Don't say no, do what they want. And you will arrive at,

00:15:00.300 you know, fulfilled relationship. So the challenge with that is that you've got some

00:15:04.580 third party providing the map, but in this case, it's on you. You're responsible for putting in

00:15:09.880 a new way to get from point A to point B. How do you begin to do that?

00:15:14.880 Yes. I think that's such a great point. And that's before I even talked about in the book,

00:15:19.420 upgrading our maps. I first start by highlighting basically how problematic trying to be nice is

00:15:28.160 because I really wanted to agitate the reader to get quite uncomfortable, frankly.

00:15:33.900 Right. And I know as people are going to read that, they're going to be nodding their heads

00:15:36.620 up and down as I've read this, this book and other works. It's like, yep, yep, yep. That was me.

00:15:42.180 And so I think people who act this way are really going to be in agreement and it's going to be

00:15:46.460 frustrating to them as well. And that's the goal is to get to a point where you're like,

00:15:50.660 can I even say this in the book? It's like, I want you to, maybe the beginning of this book,

00:15:53.640 when you're reading it, you think nice, just the word nice. And your internal reaction's like,

00:15:57.860 well, yeah, that's pretty good. You should be nice. I want it to be, and this is the place I got to

00:16:02.720 when change really started to happen fast in this area where I would think, oh, that was a really

00:16:06.980 nice behavior. I even see someone carrying out a nice behavior and inside I think you,

00:16:12.380 yeah. Yeah. Like repulsive almost, right? Yeah. And that's good because you get repulsed and then

00:16:18.140 you're willing to try something new. And once you're willing to try something new,

00:16:21.920 then there's specific strategies for speaking up, for saying no, for having healthy self-interest.

00:16:27.480 And we can start to talk about how to do that or what those look like as well.

00:16:31.100 Yeah. Let's start with saying no, because I think that's a very simple thing. I think somebody could

00:16:35.060 probably listen to this podcast and this afternoon could have more than a dozen opportunities to say no

00:16:40.900 to something. And yet if they aren't conscious about it and we don't address it, they will continue

00:16:45.740 using the same map that they always have. Yes. Again, full permission. You're allowed to say no.

00:16:51.660 It's healthy. If there's no choice in your life, you will suffer greatly. So we have to be able to

00:16:58.420 choose to say no. Then with that permission, basically it's a muscle. We got to look for opportunities

00:17:04.440 to do it. And it's probably atrophied in us. And I see this in clients. They'll kind of want to

00:17:10.700 know the best way to do it. What's the best way. And I, and I relate to this because I remember when

00:17:14.660 I really struggled with dating and approaching and creating dating opportunities, I was terrified

00:17:20.880 to approach women. And so I spent a lot of time wanting the best way to do it because I don't want 1.00

00:17:27.520 to mess it up and I don't want to get rejected. And I feel like the same thing people have with no

00:17:31.580 is like, what's the best way. And I always tell people you'll get super smooth later for now.

00:17:38.020 Just get in there. Yeah. People want to be a master without ever attempting to master the thing.

00:17:44.640 They want to read about it or listen to the podcast and think, Oh, if I hear just the right

00:17:48.140 phrase, then everything will work. Well, obviously that doesn't play out in reality.

00:17:52.660 Right. Cause here's the thing. Even if you have the exact right phrase, what I found is when we first

00:17:56.560 start saying no, we don't really believe that we have permission to do it. So here's some things to

00:18:02.200 remove. If you can, again, first and foremost, before I give you any more tips that I really want to

00:18:06.640 highlight, just do it. Look for two opportunities to say no in the next two days, two opportunities

00:18:13.740 to say no. And it could be very small. One of the first ones I did when I was doing something like

00:18:17.260 this was, I was like, I'm going to say no today. And I came with that decision. And I, at the time I

00:18:21.440 was working in a counseling clinic, I walked out of the door of my office and one of my colleagues

00:18:25.320 came up and we ran a group therapy thing later that afternoon together. And he's like, Hey, do you

00:18:30.260 mind getting to the room a few minutes early to set up today? I got a meeting. And you know,

00:18:34.780 usually here I would set up, it was no big deal. And I was just like, no, I can't do that.

00:18:39.740 And he was like confused. And I walked out and I was like, I should go back. And, and

00:18:44.420 well, other people have their own maps as well. Right. And so you're part of other people's maps.

00:18:48.580 And when you do something they don't expect, they're going to be taken back by that.

00:18:52.160 Right? Yeah. A big part of the niceness is an intolerance of feeling of other people's feelings

00:18:58.980 emotions of our own, of any sort of tension or stress or dislike or friction or negative thoughts.

00:19:06.440 We just like, I don't want any of that. Why? What is the fear of that? What's the problem with

00:19:10.840 that? You know, people are upset all the time. You're upset. I get upset. I don't want people to

00:19:14.880 feel bad, but that's just kind of part of the deal. So why are we so cautious about other people's

00:19:19.660 feelings? All right. I've been very, very curious about this because that's one of my

00:19:23.760 core obsessions is helping people care less what other people think. And of course I have that in

00:19:29.540 me too. That really does. All of us do. I keep studying it more and more and more. And what I

00:19:34.660 come to, you know, we just feel so vulnerable. There's this part inside of us that's like this

00:19:41.060 young sensitive child. Like if you look at little kids on some level, they just, we want people to

00:19:48.020 like us and someone not liking us just doesn't feel good. That's probably evolutionarily

00:19:53.660 programmed into us. And so I think it comes back to as humans, we need to connect. We need to have

00:20:01.620 our core connections. And the problem though is instead of saying, oh yeah, I do have a core

00:20:08.180 connection with my spouse, with my kids, with my parents, with my whatever, we start to say,

00:20:15.020 I need that with everybody. Will you be my core attachment and connection? Will you, Ryan,

00:20:20.320 will you during this interview? Are you like, you know, and we're not consciously saying that,

00:20:23.920 but that's how we're emotionally reacting. And as a result, we're very vulnerable to even a hint

00:20:28.560 of disapproval. This makes sense because I think about a child, I've got four kids. My youngest is

00:20:33.640 two and without me and his mom, well, he would die frankly. Yeah. And so as a child, you have this

00:20:42.000 life dependency on other people. And I think maybe we just forget that as we get older,

00:20:48.500 we are no longer dependent on what anybody else does or says or how they behave or what they think

00:20:54.980 or how they feel. We are completely independent of that. And yet maybe we just cling onto it because

00:21:01.080 that's the map. That's the script we've been playing out for 18 years potentially or longer

00:21:05.620 in some people's cases. Sure. And I found that we can try to reject that or say that's not the case

00:21:12.620 or try to, I don't care what people think, but when we're really honest, we do. And what is much

00:21:18.660 more effective is a willingness to go towards that vulnerable, tender part of us and basically just

00:21:27.120 parent it like a young child. There's something there, maybe unmet needs or an aching or a longing

00:21:34.360 or a loneliness that we felt at different ages. Are you saying to do this on yourself? Is that what

00:21:38.760 you're suggesting is that you in a way parent yourself? I just want to make sure I wrap my

00:21:42.020 head around this concept. Yes. It's so important. So as someone who's really into growth and developing

00:21:47.200 yourself, you know, the ways that you are with your kids, probably different. I don't know your

00:21:52.080 upbringing, but different than your parents were with you. Maybe a safe guess to make.

00:21:56.700 I think in some cases, some are probably similar, but a lot of areas probably are different.

00:22:01.400 And you know, there's ways that, you know, every generation tries to be better with our kids. We try to,

00:22:06.460 you know, give them maybe what we didn't have or give them something that we think they really need.

00:22:10.740 And that's just part of growth and evolution. Being the best parent that you can be to your kids,

00:22:15.840 it's almost like taking that same energy and being that way. So let me give you a specific example.

00:22:20.980 Let's say there's a situation where you have a conflict with someone or you fear a potential

00:22:25.780 conflict with someone and you feel stressed about it. And that could be at work, that could be your

00:22:29.260 partner, that could be a date, whatever. You feel anxious. You feel, we feel this like unsettled,

00:22:33.540 ungrounded feeling. And then there's a lot of like, oh, I should say this. I should email that.

00:22:38.740 I, oh, you know, impulses for action. And I encourage people to slow down,

00:22:44.040 maybe go for a little walk and just try to find that quivery, uncomfortable feeling. And that's

00:22:50.000 where it takes the courage to be, you know, discomfort tolerance, to go towards the feeling,

00:22:54.300 the discomfort in our bodies. Where do I feel tense and quivery and uncomfortable?

00:22:58.880 Basically tune into that part of us. It's like, ah, I don't want, you know, John to be mad at me.

00:23:05.720 Ah, and, and then, and then here's the thing. Most people will don't even do that. But if you,

00:23:11.280 people do do that, then they kind of try to give that part of themselves like a very hasty,

00:23:16.440 uncompassionate pep talk. Well, get over it is basically the essence that we communicate to

00:23:22.900 ourselves. And it doesn't work just like it with a four year old who's, you know, scared of

00:23:26.960 something. And you say, come on, get over it. It's not going to work. And what's much more

00:23:30.940 effective with little kids and with ourselves is tuning into that energy and just offering empathy,

00:23:38.420 understanding, and unconditional love and support. Something like, yeah, it is uncomfortable that he's

00:23:45.600 upset. It doesn't feel good, does it? I don't like that feeling either. And it sounds so simple,

00:23:51.020 but I found that being able to do that is like one of the secrets to truly caring less.

00:23:57.060 Well, you're just dealing in reality. I think anything but that is an unhealthy,

00:24:02.680 false sense of reality. And if you're making your decisions based on assumptions that are incorrect,

00:24:10.000 how successful are you going to be? I think of the term, and I'm sure you're familiar with,

00:24:14.040 and have researched this as well is cognitive distortions. I've looked into this and this has

00:24:19.360 actually helped me a lot when I realized that we have these amazing supercomputers inside of our

00:24:26.600 skulls that serve us so well at the same time, have a tendency to sabotage ourselves, especially

00:24:32.340 when it comes to keeping ourselves safe and protected. So what we naturally believe is that

00:24:36.980 the scenario in this case, your interaction with another individual is significantly worse than it is.

00:24:44.000 Like you say one thing and you jump to the conclusion that they think that you hate them. And now you start

00:24:49.100 playing out that scenario based on a faulty assumption.

00:24:52.740 Yeah. Yeah. And then all your reactions, all your choices are, as you said, they're not grounded in

00:24:58.320 reality. They're in some fantasy in our heads.

00:25:01.880 I think we do this a lot with texts. Like I'll read a text from a friend or something and I'll

00:25:05.540 literally, I'll dissect it. Oh, what did he mean by this word? And he used this punctuation instead of

00:25:12.720 an exclamation mark. So does that mean he's sad or down or happy or it's so strange that we do this.

00:25:19.840 Texting is a really interesting phenomenon because there's so much you can read and it's so easy to

00:25:24.400 read like such harshness and anger in texts.

00:25:27.240 Right. Well, just because it's, you only have a few characters. And so the emotion is by design

00:25:32.520 stripped out of it.

00:25:33.580 Yeah.

00:25:34.460 Anyways, I want to go back to what you were talking about when you were saying,

00:25:36.980 no, I interrupted you and we went off on a tangent. You were talking about the power of

00:25:41.280 saying no and why you should do that this afternoon. I found one thing that worked really

00:25:46.060 well for me and made saying no even harder, which I thought was good for me, was that I made a rule

00:25:51.860 that I wasn't allowed to explain myself either. So I would say no to people and not follow up with

00:25:58.940 an explanation or an excuse as to why I said no. And that was extremely uncomfortable.

00:26:04.720 Yeah. What a great little mini challenge that is to really go into the discomfort because that is

00:26:11.160 the, you know, we try to deal with the discomfort by either giving a ton of explanation or saying no

00:26:19.740 in a very long, soft way. That's unclear that we actually said no.

00:26:25.020 Right. Somebody may think you actually meant yes when you said no.

00:26:28.040 This week. And so maybe, you know, by the end of it, they're like, oh, okay,

00:26:32.660 I think you can do it in two weeks. So if people want to practice saying no, one, do it. And then

00:26:38.060 two, try to remove the long preamble, try to be clear and direct, and then take a page into the

00:26:43.440 book of Ryan's book here and just say like, no, and then try to limit or not have an explanation

00:26:49.900 or something like, no, I'm sorry, I can't make that. So you don't have to say, well, because I got

00:26:53.480 to take my cat to the whatever. It's just, no, I can't make it. And then what I found is that

00:26:58.900 when we don't feel like we don't have permission, we either go that soft over explaining route,

00:27:03.040 or sometimes we get a little bit overly hard. It's almost like, oh, I don't, I'm not allowed

00:27:07.600 to do this, but I do have a right. Damn it. And then we just say, no, no, I want to go to your 0.99

00:27:12.240 thing. And you have to accept that is kind of our, our attitude.

00:27:16.800 This is like an overcompensation at that point.

00:27:18.980 Exactly. And that's okay. If we look, if you explain it too much or you are a little hard,

00:27:23.840 that's perfect. It's just, it's messy. It's, that's how we learn. And then eventually when

00:27:28.420 we really get that, it's okay to say no, that we're not doing something wrong. And that takes

00:27:33.760 a while to practice. Then we can actually say no a lot more spaciously and lovingly. And we're just

00:27:40.380 a lot more relaxed. It's like, oh no, you can't make that. Thank you though. Thanks for the offer.

00:27:45.300 I appreciate that. And it's just, there's no energy. There's no tension in us. And that only comes

00:27:50.560 through repetition.

00:27:53.400 Man, just a quick timeout to tell you about something pretty exciting happening this Friday

00:27:57.560 inside our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council. If you're listening to this later than

00:28:01.880 when it was released, you probably missed it. But if you're listening to it the day that it has been

00:28:05.100 released, I want you to know on Friday morning, we're going to have our expert guest and member

00:28:10.760 of the echelon front team, Dave Burke, join us for a live Q and a with the members of the iron council.

00:28:16.500 This is just one of the many benefits when you band with us inside the iron council. And in addition

00:28:21.060 to our guest experts, like Dave Burke, you'll have access to monthly assignments,

00:28:24.780 challenges, battle teams, and the accountability to get you from where you are now to where you

00:28:30.000 want to be in your relationships, your fitness, your career, your life in general. So if you want

00:28:35.080 to join us on Friday's call and you want access to everything else that we're doing with 400 other

00:28:39.360 motivated, ambitious, driven men get registered as quickly as you possibly can head to order of

00:28:45.240 man.com slash iron council. Again, order of man.com slash iron council guys. You can do that after

00:28:51.220 the show. Let's get back to the conversation with Dr. Aziz. What's so fascinating about this to go

00:28:56.900 back to what we were talking about earlier is you naturally become more attractive at that point.

00:29:01.520 I realized in my financial planning practice, I was being the nice guy with my clients and they could

00:29:06.380 sense that. And so they were taking the other position, which is, well, this guy is desperate.

00:29:12.320 And so they felt like they had all the power, but when I became not that way and realized I don't need

00:29:17.360 to be desperate and I can say, no, I can walk away from a potential client engagement just as quickly

00:29:22.380 as they can. And I started taking that position. Then their position was, oh, we got to chase right

00:29:28.800 now. We have to play the position of this guy's in high demand or it's scarce. So we really want to

00:29:34.520 work with him. So my potential clients began to follow me and chase me as opposed to me continuing

00:29:40.360 to chase them. It was really, really interesting. Yes. I'm trying to think of, there's a very specific

00:29:45.200 example with my wife where someone invited her to do something and it just didn't quite work.

00:29:51.360 She just didn't want to in her schedule at that time or whatever. And she was going to say no,

00:29:54.880 but she felt anxious about saying no, like maybe I should say yes. And what I was sharing with her

00:29:59.680 is, you know, you're afraid that if you say no, this person's going to be upset with you.

00:30:03.520 But actually exactly what you were pointing out to is like, they're going to want you in their life

00:30:08.180 more. You're a little more scarce. Right. It's not like mysterious, even right. It's like,

00:30:12.880 well, I guess I can't have that whenever I want it. So let me offer something else. So absolutely.

00:30:17.520 That's, it's really important for people to, to see that it's not only not bad. It actually ends

00:30:23.840 up serving you and ultimately serving other people. Because when we do something from this

00:30:28.860 place of obligation, we're building a toxic sludge of resentment. And you do that long enough.

00:30:35.620 And it might not matter in a relationship where you never see the person again, but

00:30:38.480 other than for your own sanity, it'll spill over to other relationships for sure.

00:30:43.300 Yeah. Yeah. You'll feel disempowered because you know, you're close relationships. If you

00:30:47.160 don't, every time you say yes, when you want to say no, you're going to be accumulating

00:30:53.860 frustration and resentment points. And you might not even be aware of it. You might tell yourself a

00:30:59.420 story like, well, this is just what you got to do, or at least I'm a good person or whatever.

00:31:03.720 But underneath that, there's going to be something brewing and it's going to come out in funny ways.

00:31:09.280 That's a nice way to put it because it could come out in destructive ways, right? With

00:31:13.160 other relationships, whether that's with a boss or clients or your spouse or your children. And I've

00:31:19.160 been there and it's not pretty. Yeah. Yeah. Toxic is a good word for it.

00:31:23.440 And the point that I really liked in the book and in what you had talked about is

00:31:26.620 how freeing this is, how liberating it is, because I know there's a lot of guys who

00:31:31.540 play the nice guy. And then as they're playing it, they just feel so burdened, so strapped down

00:31:39.500 and trapped by being powerless. I mean, how uncomfortable is it to feel helpless in scenarios?

00:31:46.900 And I think a lot of guys are feeling that way. And what you're talking about here is

00:31:50.520 liberating yourself of that feeling. Absolutely. It's kind of like trying to go through life with

00:31:55.040 your hands handcuffed behind your back. The only thing is you put the handcuff, well, maybe that came

00:32:00.720 through your conditioning and development and whatever. You could say you put it on or it

00:32:04.280 was sort of just happened. But now at this point in your life, there is a key in your hand

00:32:08.380 that you could like unlock and then boom. And that's what I love seeing happen is when people

00:32:13.960 really get this stuff and start to practice it. And I'm like, whoa, it's one of those things that's

00:32:18.560 like personally epic, but in the broader scope of people around you in society, like no one even

00:32:24.960 knows. It's like, you're like, oh, I said no here. And then I went for that and I did this

00:32:29.220 assertive thing. And then that's like, whoa, this is rocking my world. And everyone else is like,

00:32:34.360 oh, oh, you said no there, huh? I didn't even know. Congratulations. Yeah. Life goes on.

00:32:39.760 But at that point, you're not doing it for them anyways. You're doing it for yourself. Have you

00:32:43.200 ever seen the, uh, there's videos out there where they'll stake a baby elephant, for example,

00:32:48.020 they'll stake it down to the ground. And then that baby elephant is trapped. And then as it gets older

00:32:52.660 and older and older, it doesn't even think at that point to move the stake, although it could easily do it,

00:32:57.580 but it's imposed its own limitations because it was conditioned at an early age to believe that

00:33:05.000 that stake was actually holding it back. Yeah. Have you seen stuff like that? It's absolutely

00:33:08.840 incredible. And we do the same thing all the time. This is exactly what we do.

00:33:12.580 You're right. And that's where we just don't even test the edge. I don't know what the baby,

00:33:17.660 what the elephant feels with humans. We think about the edge. It's just, it's like an electric fence.

00:33:24.680 There's just a lot of fear there. We might not even think it's an option, but you know, so for

00:33:29.720 example, maybe it's not even on your option list to say no, but then you look over at, you know,

00:33:34.780 so-and-so that you work with and you're like, wow, they say no easily. So we see alternative

00:33:40.500 potentials. We see life beyond that little space of rope, you know, that the elephant was trapped in.

00:33:45.360 And yet we don't go there and it all comes back to fear and this unwillingness to be uncomfortable.

00:33:55.760 You know, I'm going to be assertive. It's going to be so uncomfortable, or I'm going to have to have

00:33:58.260 this conversation with so-and-so with my partner or break up with this person. I don't want to.

00:34:04.580 And it's just this chronic avoidance and avoidance in the short term might provide a little bit of

00:34:10.780 relief, but in the longterm it's dismal pain. Well, and the other thing too, is having the

00:34:16.200 ability to be a little more assertive in your life will actually keep you from engaging in more

00:34:22.540 uncomfortable conversations. So the example I think of is let's take an employer, for example,

00:34:28.540 and he's soft and wants to play the nice guy. And he has a potential employee come into the office

00:34:34.120 who is a decent candidate. And because he's so uncomfortable, he hires that individual.

00:34:40.660 Well, come to find out this individual shows up late, slacks off, isn't a team player, and is just 0.57

00:34:46.720 a horrible, horrible employee. Well, now he's stuck because he doesn't want to have another

00:34:51.520 uncomfortable conversation, which is I have to let this individual go. The alternative to that is

00:34:57.060 in the first place, he wouldn't even hired that individual. And that saved an additional

00:35:02.040 uncomfortable meeting because he did the right thing in the first place.

00:35:05.420 Yes. That's a great example. When we avoid it, we start to, it's going to catch up to us. And I'm

00:35:12.500 laughing because I'm thinking about how that's how some men that I met, basically that's what led to

00:35:16.860 them being married was one little step at a time down this pathway of, I don't want to have that

00:35:22.440 uncomfortable conversation. Flash forward three, four, five years and they're in a relationship,

00:35:27.820 a committed relationship. It's not the right person for them.

00:35:29.960 Is this mostly what you deal with in your practice with individuals who are trying to

00:35:34.460 work through this? I mean, what do you see most often in your practice?

00:35:37.680 Yes. I work around confidence in general. I think niceness is one of the big manifestations of that,

00:35:42.620 that we help people with, but there's also, maybe it all comes back to niceness, but how to be more

00:35:47.740 bold in life in general. So that could be approaching who you want, being who you are, being more expressive,

00:35:54.000 being more direct, being able to show who you are in all the different domains of life,

00:35:58.460 your career, your relationships, your social life. And so I think niceness is one of the key

00:36:04.100 features as well as just a general inhibition or fear of being who we are in the world is a big one

00:36:10.700 that I help people through as well. And we talked about this earlier. I think seeking the approval of

00:36:15.480 others is okay in the right situations. I think what we see a lot in society today, especially in this

00:36:22.400 quote unquote self-help space is F what everybody else is thinking. And I don't care about anybody

00:36:27.400 else. And I don't think that's a healthy way either. I think there's certain people who are

00:36:31.640 qualified that you probably ought to consider how you're being viewed or what they think of you,

00:36:38.380 because they're going to give you critical feedback to, to improve in your life. If you

00:36:42.500 don't care about anything or anybody, I think you stunt your growth.

00:36:46.900 Right. Yeah. And you mentioned overcompensation earlier that I think that is right. That's just

00:36:50.880 like a pendulum swinging the other way. And it's like just a hardening inside. I think the ultimate

00:36:56.960 goal, not care at all what others think, because yeah, what about your relationships with your people

00:37:02.860 that you love, with your spouse, with your kids, with close friends, with clients, with whoever it is

00:37:08.220 that you're serving in the world to truly care nothing about how they see you or what they want

00:37:15.160 is a very lonely, painful existence. That's our goal. That usually comes from too many years of

00:37:20.560 caring too much. So we want to swing the pendulum and imagine it's going to be really great. But really

00:37:24.620 what we just want to do is get more into that mid range where we have more choice. And I do care

00:37:30.820 what my wife feels and thinks and wants. And I am able to sometimes say, this is what I need. This is

00:37:38.000 what's important for me. Let's have a conversation about this. This is what I like. This is what I don't

00:37:42.420 like. Just being more authentic and direct is the goal and open hearted in that where I care about

00:37:48.320 myself and I care about whoever I'm dealing with. Sure. Yeah. I mean, you talk a lot about choices and

00:37:54.580 then the other side of this too, that I see and you've addressed is creating boundaries. And this

00:37:59.760 is something that we have talked a lot about and how important those boundaries are. Can you walk me

00:38:05.720 through what you mean when you're talking about boundaries and how we can begin to establish healthy

00:38:11.200 ones to overcome this need to be nice? Sure. Yeah. I think the biggest first step for boundaries is to

00:38:19.240 know that they're already there and we just have to listen to ourselves. And many of us learned along

00:38:26.380 the way that you shouldn't, it doesn't matter what you want or what you feel or what you think, just do

00:38:29.720 it. It's kind of the message a lot of us got. So we kind of lose touch with ourselves. Maybe you can

00:38:35.520 even call it, some psychologists call it self alienation or sort of alienated from ourselves. Like,

00:38:40.280 I don't even know what I want and what I think and what I feel. Boundaries are there. The example

00:38:44.860 that I give in the book, which helps illustrate it is you're in your backyard and it borders your

00:38:50.960 neighbor. And you guys share a fence and you each have your backyard there. And in your yard, you have

00:38:55.240 a tree, a fruit tree, maybe a peach tree and some flowers and stuff. And just imagine this scenario.

00:39:01.760 You're in your backyard and your neighbor's in their backyard and your neighbor walks over,

00:39:08.140 opens the gate on your fence. He's like, hey, Ryan, how's it going? Walks towards you, steps on your

00:39:14.580 flowers on his way to saying hi to you, stops by your tree and picks several of the ripest, juiciest

00:39:20.840 peaches, starts to eat one. He's like, hey, Ryan, how's it going? Imagining that scenario, noticing, how do I

00:39:27.800 feel there? Do I like what's happening? And most people put that scenario out. There's sort of some sense

00:39:33.200 aversion, like, I don't like this. I don't like what they're doing here. And I picked that

00:39:39.120 kind of obvious example because that's happening all the time in our interactions. Someone interrupts

00:39:46.440 you when you're talking. Someone doesn't respond to you in a certain way, whatever it is. And we

00:39:51.740 have this inner like, I like that. And yet 9.9 times out of 10, we'll just be like, well, I should just

00:39:59.800 let it go. You know, he doesn't have any fruit. So he probably just had my peaches. Do you even

00:40:03.900 think we rationalize that far? Because I think a lot of times we just get caught off guard and we're

00:40:07.940 like, uh, uh, uh, like how would you respond to that situation? And so your default is, well, I guess I

00:40:13.360 just let it happen. Right. Yeah. Maybe like a freeze response to sort of watch, watch it unfold.

00:40:19.040 Right. Because I've been there, like I've had people catch me off guard with certain things

00:40:23.300 and I didn't know how to respond because I wasn't anticipating that happening. And so I just said,

00:40:29.800 yes, or so came to whatever it is their request was. I mean, I personally had that happen.

00:40:34.860 Sure. And that's where the knowing of ourselves and again, permission, it seems like a theme that's

00:40:40.760 coming up a lot in this conversation, but permission to have boundaries like anything else.

00:40:44.960 If it's top of mind, like if, you know, people listening are like, Oh yeah, I'm going to say no

00:40:48.720 today or two times in the next two days. You know, you will, your focus is on it. And the same thing

00:40:54.180 with boundaries, our focus is on it. We're thinking about it. And like, like if we literally were

00:40:59.280 imagining at the beginning of the day, I wonder what my bound, you know, where I'm going to have

00:41:03.020 boundaries today, what I'm going to say, what I'm going to do. And then it's in our mind,

00:41:07.660 you might be surprised. You might be in a situation where normally we're taken off guard

00:41:10.760 and we would say, Oh, hold on a sec. I'm not sure about that. And here's the thing about boundaries

00:41:15.960 is we don't have to know exactly what the right thing to do in that moment is or what we want.

00:41:22.180 We just might want to even put our foot in the door by just saying, Oh, hold on a sec.

00:41:28.260 Something's not right there for me. Sure. And that gives you a little bit of space and a little

00:41:32.160 bit of time to think about it. Yeah. That space is so critical, right? Then like you said, you hold

00:41:38.380 on, let me get back to you on that. Give me, give me a half an hour and I'll let you know. And now you

00:41:43.260 can collect and gather your thoughts before you engage in this opportunity to say no to somebody.

00:41:47.860 Yeah. And they're so subtle. Boundaries don't have to be like, don't ever climb into my fence,

00:41:53.080 you know, yard again. You know, it can be much more subtle than that. Like little small example.

00:41:57.840 There's a couple of people on my team that serve as a sort of consulting role and they have lots of

00:42:02.520 ideas for me and growing my business. They were put forth a lot. And I noticed in our earlier meetings,

00:42:08.180 I was just a yes man. I was like, Oh yeah, I can do that. Oh yeah. Cause a lot of them were,

00:42:11.560 were good ideas. But I realized the, hold on a second, I'm just taking on a lot here.

00:42:16.880 And so just recently, in one of the recent calls, they, they asked me a question and I was like,

00:42:21.560 Hmm, let me think on that one and get back to you next week. And that's an example of what I would

00:42:27.200 call micro boundary. It's just really small. It's not this big deal. And yet it was new,

00:42:32.760 the subtle pleaser in me or the other, I'm paying them for the services. I want to be a good client.

00:42:37.640 I want to follow their advice. That energy might make me again, just separate from myself and not

00:42:44.820 really even know what I think was right for me in that moment.

00:42:48.240 What's the difference between boundaries, which you talk about, and then choosing your rules,

00:42:52.280 which you also talk about. Hmm. That's a great question. Choosing them is very important because

00:42:56.820 we have default rules in our mind of what we're allowed to do and what we're not allowed to do.

00:43:02.240 The rules in a sense could be our boundaries, but they determine what's allowed. So if you have a

00:43:07.020 rule that says, don't ever interrupt anybody, that's bad. Then you're going to be in a situation

00:43:13.300 where you can't have a boundary when someone's talking all the time. Hmm. So the rule in that

00:43:18.960 case would prevent you from being able to have a boundary because you're like, maybe the person's

00:43:23.480 talking and talking and talking and you want to interrupt them or end the conversation. But in

00:43:26.940 your mind, somewhere in the back, there's a rule that says, oh, that would be impolite. That would

00:43:30.700 sure hurt their feelings. They really like telling you the story about their daughter's boyfriends,

00:43:35.320 mom's husband's motorcycle, which is a real thing. There was a guy that was a contractor that worked

00:43:41.260 in our house who would tell me stories that were like that far removed, like his daughter's

00:43:45.200 boyfriends, mom's dad. You're like, I don't care. Can you build my house, please?

00:43:49.240 And it was so good for me. So good for me because I had a little bit of that rule still don't

00:43:54.020 interrupt people. I'd been working on it for many years really, but that was like heavy lifting and

00:43:58.880 it was so good for me because I work as a clinical psychologist and then especially as a coach

00:44:03.180 and especially working with groups, I had to be able to interrupt people. Otherwise they just run the

00:44:08.920 show and steer the whole thing. I needed to be in a leadership role and move things along.

00:44:13.780 And so I'd work on it, but I was always very tactful about it. Kind of come up with the best

00:44:19.040 strategy again, trying to take care of people, be nice stuff in a way. With him though, it was great

00:44:24.460 practice for me because no subtle strategy worked. Right. They don't get it. I'd bludgeon it. So it'd

00:44:31.160 just be like, he'd be talking, talking, talking, talking. I would just be like, yeah, that sounds

00:44:35.160 great. Hey, let me ask you a question about the gutters. And that's like the level of skill I would

00:44:39.720 do it with, but it works. I would just do that more and more. And then my goal and my game became

00:44:44.760 how quickly can I do that? You know, how much of this story? So instead of listening to five minutes,

00:44:49.120 kind of listen to 30 seconds of it. Yeah. But you know, what's interesting about this too,

00:44:53.700 because I know there's guys who, instead of doing what you did, which I believe is the assertive thing

00:44:58.600 to do, they would just go run and hide to your point earlier. You're not giving yourself options.

00:45:03.380 You're letting somebody else dictate your behavior at that point. It's not healthy.

00:45:07.220 Sure. And then we'd run and hide. And then we'd go complain to someone else, a friend, a spouse.

00:45:12.220 Oh my, you know what he was like? Oh God, he doesn't shut up. What a bit. And we're real,

00:45:17.600 real, real tough guy when he's not around. Right. We get there and then we're quiet as a mouse.

00:45:23.120 How do you know what rules are serving you and which ones aren't? Because we're talking about maps and

00:45:29.540 we're talking about conditioning from the time that we were little. I think it's very hard for us to

00:45:34.440 know because don't interrupt people. That sounds like a good rule, but probably we wouldn't even

00:45:39.440 really think about whether or not we're adhering to that rule or not. Does that make sense?

00:45:43.760 Sure. Yeah. A lot of these rules are unconscious and we just kind of live by them. But

00:45:47.040 I think one of the best ways to start, well, I have an activity in the book called your bill of rights

00:45:51.480 and just sitting down and thinking about what are my rights? The bill of rights was a document

00:45:57.400 where they sat down and sort of like, let's think big here. It's the same thing in our own lives.

00:46:01.440 Like, what is a healthy relationship? Like, forget what I learned when I was a kid or what so-and-so

00:46:05.740 told me about never interrupting. Like, what is healthy? What feels right to me now as an adult

00:46:11.740 when I really tune in and just start to write out the rules with the phrasing, I have a right to.

00:46:16.740 So I have a right to interrupt people. That doesn't mean that you do it 100% of the time or do it

00:46:23.720 with harshness and cruelty. It just means I have a right to do it when needed. Here's some of the

00:46:28.620 ones that were really important to me that I had to give myself permission. I have a right to approach

00:46:32.900 someone to start a conversation with them. They may want it. They may not. And that's okay. They

00:46:38.160 could indicate that by saying no or turning away or whatever. That was very important for me for women

00:46:42.380 and dating, but also socially. I felt I was a bother and imposing upon anyone and everyone. I had a lot

00:46:47.260 of social anxiety around that when I was younger. So I have a right to initiate a conversation with

00:46:52.440 anyone and they have a right to say no. I have a right to ask for what I want. I have a right to

00:46:58.280 change my mind. I have a right to want to do something without being able to rationally explain

00:47:04.820 why that's the case. And you may say, well, where'd you come up with these or how did you get these?

00:47:09.560 Like, I don't know. These just sound good to me. Like these are rights that I want to give myself.

00:47:13.620 So it's an example of, I encourage people to write out the ones. And then if you want to dig up,

00:47:18.260 what are the ones that might be holding me back? And that's another section of the book where we

00:47:22.320 have you write out the rules and the ones that guide you almost always come in the form of should.

00:47:28.540 Maybe if it's the 1950s, you use the word must back in Ellis's days and stuff, but it's a should now. 0.98

00:47:35.020 So I should never interrupt someone. I shouldn't say no to my kids. I shouldn't say no to my wife

00:47:41.240 or my husband. I shouldn't say no to my boss. These are pretty big examples, but it could be all sorts

00:47:46.740 of nuanced stuff. So look at what the shoulds are and you want to write them down. And I do guide

00:47:52.260 people through this whole process in the book. I recommend people really go through it in detail

00:47:56.780 because then you want to start to look at, well, which of these serve me? Because some of your

00:48:01.320 shoulds might be, you want to follow them, right? I should never hit my kids. Like that's one that I

00:48:06.040 want to follow. So, but then there's others like I should never make anyone upset. You may want to

00:48:13.280 question that one. Right. Because there's not a whole lot of control that you have over that.

00:48:17.440 Right. Right. So then you can start to see which ones are reasonable and which ones aren't.

00:48:21.340 Yeah, that makes sense. Well, we're winding down on time. I think that's a good exercise. And

00:48:25.640 obviously anybody who's listening, it just would benefit them to pick up a copy of the book and go

00:48:29.520 through that exercise. In addition to everything else that you have in here, as we wind down, I want to

00:48:33.420 ask you a couple of additional questions. The first one, I let you know about half an hour ago,

00:48:38.080 what does it mean to be a man? I love it. I think to be a man, it's courage,

00:48:42.900 courage to be open hearted in the world, especially for men. To be a man is to develop

00:48:48.260 your courage to live with an open heart. And that to me, living with an open heart is being

00:48:53.740 able to tune in, feel your heart, feel your connection to yourself and others and live from

00:48:59.440 a place where you're connected to you and able to connect and give to others. And that means being

00:49:04.720 able to express from the heart, express my uniqueness, our uniqueness, and also express love

00:49:10.100 directly, openly, authentically, and fearlessly.

00:49:14.120 That's powerful. That's really powerful. I like that. Well, Aziz, how do we connect with you? If

00:49:18.520 we want to learn more about what you're doing and the work you're doing, pick up a copy of the book.

00:49:22.240 How do we connect with you?

00:49:23.140 Yeah. Yeah. A couple of main ways. You could go to my main website, which is

00:49:27.740 socialconfidencecenter.com. It's got a free ebook there as well as information, blog stuff, videos,

00:49:34.620 links to my YouTube channel and podcasts and all the stuff that I got going on. And also people

00:49:39.480 are interested in the book itself. There's notnicebook.com, notnicebook.com. And that's

00:49:44.600 got links to get the book, but also extra videos and downloads and PDFs and all kinds of stuff.

00:49:50.680 That's all in the book, but then people listening to say the audio version or whatever can get all

00:49:55.040 the goodies there. We'll link it all up, but just want to let you know that I appreciate you coming on

00:49:58.900 the show today and sharing this. I mean, this is so, so important that guys understand why,

00:50:04.620 they feel the way they do, why they are playing the nice guy at times and certainly how to address

00:50:10.840 it and how to overcome it. So I really appreciate you imparting some of your wisdom. I know this is

00:50:14.540 going to serve a lot of the men listening. Fantastic. Yeah. This was really fun. It flew

00:50:18.160 by and I love your questions and it's such a, such a good topic. So I'm glad to be of service.

00:50:24.460 Gentlemen, there you go. My conversation with Dr. Aziz. I hope for those of you who feel like you

00:50:29.800 might be a little bit too nice. I hope this was a valuable conversation for you. This

00:50:34.560 is something that I've fallen prey to in the past. This is something Dr. Aziz, obviously,

00:50:38.560 as he talked about has fallen prey to in the past and there's a better way to live. There is a better

00:50:43.640 way to live. And I'm not saying that you have to be mean or take it to the extreme the other way,

00:50:47.940 but there's certainly a way to protect yourself, to be a little bit more selfish. And then of course,

00:50:53.440 accomplish bigger things for you and also for your loved ones. The people that you care about can

00:50:57.780 benefit from you not being so nice as well. So I would encourage you to connect with Dr. Aziz

00:51:02.780 online, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, wherever you're doing the social media thing, pick up a

00:51:06.920 copy of his book, Not Nice, subtitled Stop Pleasing People, Staying Silent and Feeling Guilty.

00:51:12.220 Connect with me on Instagram at Ryan Mickler. Most of what I'm doing these days, guys, is on

00:51:16.840 Instagram. So if you want to plug into what we're doing and connect with me there and learn about the

00:51:22.980 guests that we're having on and the programs that we're running, connect with me over on Instagram

00:51:26.240 at Ryan Mickler, R-Y-A-N-M-I-C-H-L-E-R. But if you're on Twitter or Facebook, we're also over there

00:51:33.420 as well. All right, guys, I'll let you get going for the day. Please, as I do, just go out and share

00:51:38.280 this. All right, we need to blow this thing up like I mentioned before. And the way that we're

00:51:41.580 going to do that is through this grassroots movement of Order of Man, which is not me

00:51:45.980 advertising and pitching and hawking products. It's you, the men engaged in the fight to go out there,

00:51:53.020 to share what you know, to share your resources. And I hope this has been valuable for you. If it

00:51:57.480 has been valuable for you, I would humbly ask that you share it with another man who it might benefit

00:52:02.280 as well. All right, guys, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to be.

00:52:10.680 Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. If you're ready to take charge of your life

00:52:15.280 and be more of the man you were meant to be, we invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

00:52:23.020 Thank you.

Order of Man - October 30, 2018

Stop Being So Nice ｜ DR. AZIZ GAZIPURA

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript