Stop Being So Nice ｜ DR. AZIZ GAZIPURA
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Summary
One of the most common challenges I see men face is their inability to overcome being too nice. Now, don't get me wrong, being nice is great, but when it comes at the expense of your own well-being, it becomes a problem. So today, I am joined by psychologist Dr. Aziz Ghazipura to talk about the pitfalls of being "too nice" and how to get out of it.
Transcript
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One of the most common challenges I see men face is their inability to overcome being too nice.
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Now, don't get me wrong, being nice is great, but when it comes at the expense
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of your own well-being, it becomes a problem. So today, I am joined by psychologist Dr. Aziz
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Ghazipura to talk about the pitfalls of being too nice. We cover what he calls the guilt bubble
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and how to get out of it, the cost of being overly nice, learning to speak up and develop
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healthy boundaries, and how to stop being so nice. You're a man of action. You live life to the
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fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back
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up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.
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This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day,
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and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
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Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler, and I am the host and the founder
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of this podcast, The Order of Man. I want to welcome you back. I want to welcome you here.
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Guys, we've got to blow up this mission. We really do. I look around, and I see more and more
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challenges with what it means to be a man. I see more and more society dismissing it. I see more and
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more confusion about what it means to be a man, and of course, I see the fallout and the results,
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the negative results of having less men who are willing to step up, who are able to step
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up, and this podcast is leading the charge with regards to recapturing and reclaiming
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what it means to be a man, but we've got to blow this thing up. So guys, if you've been
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around for any amount of time, please, if you would, share this. Leave the rating and review.
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Tell a friend, a colleague, a neighbor, a brother, your father, a coworker, whoever it may be,
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about the mission, which is helping men protect, provide, preside, and helping them step fully
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into their role as men inside the walls of their home and in their businesses and in the
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community. Guys, I really appreciate your help. We could not do this without you, and
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it's pretty amazing. It's absolutely incredible to me to see how far we've come and how much
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we've been growing and the messages that I receive from you and from everybody else who
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are improving their lives, improving their relationships, getting back in shape, getting
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promotions, getting career advancements, making more money, being better fathers, re-engaging
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their wives, doing all of the things that we're trying to do. And of course, this podcast is
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just a sliver of what we're providing in order to help you do that. But I need your help.
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My part is to bring you the conversations and the resources and the guests. Your part is to
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share what you know, share what you learn, and help engage other men in this battle. In addition
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to that, and before we get into the show, I want to mention something that I got in the
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mail the other day. I think I've already had mentioned this. I got a surprise package
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from my friends over at Origin. A lot of you guys are familiar with their partnership with
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Jocko, with their protein supplement and their other supplements, Joint Warfare, Super
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Krill, things like that, and their Mulk, which is their protein supplement. Well, I got in
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the mail the other day, by surprise, a Warrior Kid Mulk, the chocolate, and I also got the
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Fill my kids with a bunch of sugary drinks and everything like that. And specifically,
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my two oldest boys have seen me take the Mulk and they wanted to do it. And it was pretty
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timely that this came in. So if you've got little athletes, little sons and daughters who want to
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improve their fitness and they see what you're doing and the protein that you might be taking,
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then I would encourage you to check out the Warrior Kid Mulk by Origin and partnered with
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Jocko. So you can go to originmain.com. You can check it out there. You can get their geese,
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their rash guards, their training equipment, their protein, their supplements, everything that
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they're doing over there. I don't know if I'm supposed to say it or not, but it looks like
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they've got some new jeans coming out next year as well. So they're doing very well on the lifestyle
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apparel as well. Again, check it out guys, originmain.com. And when you head over there,
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make sure you use the code ORDER, O-R-D-E-R. You're going to get 10% off on anything that
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you purchase. Again, originmain.com and then use the code ORDER. So guys, that's what I wanted to
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share with you by way of announcements. Now let's get into the conversation with my guest,
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Dr. Aziz. He's a clinical psychologist. Frankly, he's one of the world's leading experts on social
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confidence. He started his Center for Social Confidence in 2011. It's dedicated to helping everyone
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break through shyness, through social anxiety, through all the struggles that I know a lot of
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men have. He's helped thousands of people all over the world increase confidence. And he does this
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through coaching, his video programs, podcasts like this one. He's got a blog. He does workshops.
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He does it all. And it helps him live out his mission, which is to help every person who's stuck
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in shyness, liberate themselves to pursue relationship, career, and life that they've always
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dreamed of. Most recently, he wrote a book titled, Not Nice, which is subtitled, Stop Pleasing People,
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Staying Silent, and Feeling Guilty, which is what he's here to talk with us about today. So guys,
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sit back, take some notes if need be, and learn how to not be so nice.
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Yeah, we were introduced by a mutual friend, Brett McKay over at The Art of Manliness. And man,
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I've been looking forward to this conversation because this idea of niceness and not being so
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nice and trying to figure out what this is like. And I know there's a lot of guys who struggle with
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this quote unquote, nice guy syndrome. So this is very timely and something on a lot of guys'
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minds. Absolutely. And it's complicated in a way. It's not just one size fits all. And that's why I
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love talking about it because there's so much nuance. There's so much potential to feel way better
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in so many subtle ways. And that's the hard part too, when you're talking about being nice.
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I mean, that could mean so many different things. Some people think it's being passive. Some people
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think it's pleasing everybody else. And certainly there's elements of that, of course, to being
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nice. But let's create some of the framework and the baseline for what we're talking about. When
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you're talking about being nice, what does that even mean? What are you referring to?
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Sure. That's a great starting point because without that, we can lose a lot of people because they
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they might think, well, nice, that means being kind, compassionate, caring, considerate.
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Right. Yeah. Those are virtues that we want. I make a distinction in my book, Not Nice,
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which is that those are actually different things to be kind, caring, compassionate, and generous. And
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in most ways, when we think of nice, there's a subtle undertone of basically fear-based trying to
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preserve safety and connection, whether that's trying to get the approval of others,
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trying to make sure that others either really like us and want to stay or don't leave. And also,
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usually by pleasing them, as you said, being passive, not saying no. So it's like a fearful
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way of trying to stay connected and safe. And that's different than being compassionate or loving,
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because even if we might look compassionate and loving, if it's coming from that fearful place,
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like, okay, I'll give to you so you don't leave me, it's very different energetically, emotionally,
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than someone who's like, yes, I genuinely want to give to you in this moment. So it comes from choice,
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whereas the niceness eliminates our sense of choice. We just have to do it or else we're bad,
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or else we feel guilty, or else we feel anxious.
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And what's interesting about it is to me, in a lot of ways, when you're talking about
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the selfish nature of it, which is to get other people to do what I want, essentially is how I
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look at it. It's a roundabout way of doing that, but it's self-sabotaging. You know,
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I found in my own life, because I used to be the, what I would refer to as the nice guy,
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that the more I tried to be nice to other people, quote unquote, nice in the definition we just
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described, the more that people were not attracted to me, but repelled by me. And so it was really
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interesting that we, as human beings, take on this strategy, whether it's conscious or subconscious.
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And it's actually, in my perspective, producing the exact opposite result of what we're trying
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to accomplish. Yeah. And what I find so tragically humorous about that, because I lived it myself,
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it's not working. And our only solution is to double down and be like, oh, that didn't work. I
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better be more nice. Yeah. Well, I think the reason that is, and correct me if I'm wrong,
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because you've got the background and the data with this, but I think the reason we do that is
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because we look at it and think, well, the opposite is being an asshole and nobody wants
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to be an asshole, right? So maybe I'm just not being nice in the right way. I don't know. That's,
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that's what I'm assuming happens. I think so. I think you're absolutely right. There's basically,
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it's all or nothing. Two strategies is all we got. Either be really nice, which means
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basically do what others want, give their needs, desires, preferences, opinions, much more power,
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credence and validity than our own, or, you know, be this asshole. It was really interesting because
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I've talked to a lot of people about this in my work. When, when you start to uncover,
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in fact, I'll ask clients this like, great, just imagine you were an asshole in this situation.
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Whether it's a dating scenario, a work scenario, what would you do? And sometimes they, they throw
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out some crazy first joking answer, you know, like I'd punch him in the face. Then we all laugh.
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And I say, great, no, no, seriously, what would you do? And then they start to explore it more.
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And it's actually what I would consider healthy assertiveness, but to them, it feels like I'm
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being this terrible person, this asshole. And that story keeps them living out the nice pattern
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Why do they feel that assertiveness, and we can talk a little bit more specifically about that,
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but why would somebody default to believing that assertiveness is aggressiveness?
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It's a lack of calibration. It's sort of like, it's either I'm nice or I'm bad. And so anything
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outside of this little sphere of niceness is bad. So there's no distinction. There's no like,
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well, that's aggressive. That's assertive. That's too much. That's just right. It's all the dark
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territory. We've never been there. It's a, in a lot of work after my day, it's like,
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the fog of war. You can't see beyond the edge of the map. It's all bad. And that's, I think,
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by design, because the roots of this niceness goes back to our earliest attachments in life
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with family, with caregivers. And there is a deep training of our nervous system that says,
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you be this way or else you're going to lose something big. You're going to lose love.
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You're going to lose connection. You're going to lose safety. And so that's, as adults,
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flash forward 20, 30, 40 years, we're really scared to test it. And so we just keep living
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I don't want to say what is the solution, because obviously we're talking about a very complex issue
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and I can't just jump right into the solution, but how would one begin to explore in what you said,
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testing a more assertive way of living their life?
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Yeah, I love it. I think we should be talking about the solution as much as possible because
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that's how we, I mean, being able to identify the problem is just the first step.
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And maybe people think, well, obviously I'd have to speak up for myself more. I'd have to do all
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these things. And yes, that's part of the solution to act more assertively, but that's very hard to
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just start doing because of our psychology. And so we need to upgrade our map of what it means to be a
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quote, good person or what it means to have healthy relationships. And there's a few key things that we
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want to really see. One is that it is good to be able to put others first sometimes.
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Right. I mean, there's situations I can think of, for example, being a father where yes, I will have
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to place my children's needs before my own. And that only makes sense in that situation, but it
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doesn't mean that that's my default way of living.
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Right. And what I've found really interesting about that father example is even then there's
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moment to moment questions of what goes where, whose needs go first in this moment. So just this
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morning, I'm making my breakfast and the boys have their breakfast. Then my youngest son, two and a
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half, climbs on the counter, knocks over his oatmeal and spills all over the floor. And so I clean it up.
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And then he's like, I want more oats. And I'm like, okay, bud, hold on a second. I'm going to finish
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making my breakfast and then I'll start your oats. And so it was just about 30 more seconds to put my
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stuff in there and then start eating it. So I, you know, that might seem like such a trivial example,
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but you'd be amazed at how much we can default to, I must do what other people want or else I'm bad.
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That is so true. I've seen this play out in my own life. I've seen it play out in countless of men's
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lives, serving somebody else. That's fine. There's no problem with that, but make sure that you're also
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in conjunction serving yourself and that you are taking care of yourself so that you are more capable of
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serving others. Right. And it's one of those things that people intellectually would nod their
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head and say, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, the classic example of self-help is to put the airline,
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put the mask on yourself first and people nod and say, ha ha, very good, very good. But then in our
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lives, emotionally, we feel so uncomfortable doing that, that we don't. And we have to really
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consciously upgrade our map and say, okay, being able to have healthy self-interest. I have a chapter
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in the book called Be More Selfish and it's designed to be somewhat controversial in that title. But in
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there, I describe what I would call healthy self-interest, where you're able to come to a
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place of choice and quickly assess the situation. You know, what do I need? What do they need? What do
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they want? How intense are each of our situations and our needs? What's going to be the best choice
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for me? Now, you know, do we always pick quote perfectly? No, but we're at least more at choice
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and really getting that that is not only allowed, but healthy and anything else that you learned
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from upbringing or family or past codependent relationships or something where that was
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wrong is just an inaccurate map of relationships. And so we want to upgrade that.
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When you're talking about map, I just want to butt in here for a second, because to define when
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you're talking about upgrading our map, you're talking about the way that we've wired our brain
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through experiences and cultures and beliefs and backgrounds. And then we're using that as an
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operating system for the way in which we make decisions and act out our life. Am I on the right
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track here? Absolutely. I mean, I would think of it as like, okay, my map is to my destination,
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you know, open up Google maps or whatever and say, I want to get to a destination X on my phone.
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And that would be like, I want to have a loving relationship where I feel good,
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they feel good and we're connected. And then your Google map says, turn right here,
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turn left there, do this, do that. If that map information is outdated, is inaccurate, is false,
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then it's going to say, turn left here and you arrive at your destination. And then you turn left
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and you're like, where the hell am I? Yeah. And that's how it is with our old maps. It's like,
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be pleasing, give to the other person. Don't say no, do what they want. And you will arrive at,
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you know, fulfilled relationship. So the challenge with that is that you've got some
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third party providing the map, but in this case, it's on you. You're responsible for putting in
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a new way to get from point A to point B. How do you begin to do that?
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Yes. I think that's such a great point. And that's before I even talked about in the book,
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upgrading our maps. I first start by highlighting basically how problematic trying to be nice is
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because I really wanted to agitate the reader to get quite uncomfortable, frankly.
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Right. And I know as people are going to read that, they're going to be nodding their heads
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up and down as I've read this, this book and other works. It's like, yep, yep, yep. That was me.
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And so I think people who act this way are really going to be in agreement and it's going to be
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frustrating to them as well. And that's the goal is to get to a point where you're like,
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can I even say this in the book? It's like, I want you to, maybe the beginning of this book,
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when you're reading it, you think nice, just the word nice. And your internal reaction's like,
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well, yeah, that's pretty good. You should be nice. I want it to be, and this is the place I got to
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when change really started to happen fast in this area where I would think, oh, that was a really
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nice behavior. I even see someone carrying out a nice behavior and inside I think you,
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yeah. Yeah. Like repulsive almost, right? Yeah. And that's good because you get repulsed and then
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you're willing to try something new. And once you're willing to try something new,
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then there's specific strategies for speaking up, for saying no, for having healthy self-interest.
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And we can start to talk about how to do that or what those look like as well.
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Yeah. Let's start with saying no, because I think that's a very simple thing. I think somebody could
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probably listen to this podcast and this afternoon could have more than a dozen opportunities to say no
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to something. And yet if they aren't conscious about it and we don't address it, they will continue
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using the same map that they always have. Yes. Again, full permission. You're allowed to say no.
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It's healthy. If there's no choice in your life, you will suffer greatly. So we have to be able to
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choose to say no. Then with that permission, basically it's a muscle. We got to look for opportunities
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to do it. And it's probably atrophied in us. And I see this in clients. They'll kind of want to
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know the best way to do it. What's the best way. And I, and I relate to this because I remember when
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I really struggled with dating and approaching and creating dating opportunities, I was terrified
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to approach women. And so I spent a lot of time wanting the best way to do it because I don't want
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to mess it up and I don't want to get rejected. And I feel like the same thing people have with no
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is like, what's the best way. And I always tell people you'll get super smooth later for now.
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Just get in there. Yeah. People want to be a master without ever attempting to master the thing.
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They want to read about it or listen to the podcast and think, Oh, if I hear just the right
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phrase, then everything will work. Well, obviously that doesn't play out in reality.
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Right. Cause here's the thing. Even if you have the exact right phrase, what I found is when we first
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start saying no, we don't really believe that we have permission to do it. So here's some things to
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remove. If you can, again, first and foremost, before I give you any more tips that I really want to
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highlight, just do it. Look for two opportunities to say no in the next two days, two opportunities
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to say no. And it could be very small. One of the first ones I did when I was doing something like
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this was, I was like, I'm going to say no today. And I came with that decision. And I, at the time I
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was working in a counseling clinic, I walked out of the door of my office and one of my colleagues
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came up and we ran a group therapy thing later that afternoon together. And he's like, Hey, do you
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mind getting to the room a few minutes early to set up today? I got a meeting. And you know,
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usually here I would set up, it was no big deal. And I was just like, no, I can't do that.
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And he was like confused. And I walked out and I was like, I should go back. And, and
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well, other people have their own maps as well. Right. And so you're part of other people's maps.
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And when you do something they don't expect, they're going to be taken back by that.
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Right? Yeah. A big part of the niceness is an intolerance of feeling of other people's feelings
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emotions of our own, of any sort of tension or stress or dislike or friction or negative thoughts.
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We just like, I don't want any of that. Why? What is the fear of that? What's the problem with
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that? You know, people are upset all the time. You're upset. I get upset. I don't want people to
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feel bad, but that's just kind of part of the deal. So why are we so cautious about other people's
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feelings? All right. I've been very, very curious about this because that's one of my
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core obsessions is helping people care less what other people think. And of course I have that in
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me too. That really does. All of us do. I keep studying it more and more and more. And what I
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come to, you know, we just feel so vulnerable. There's this part inside of us that's like this
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young sensitive child. Like if you look at little kids on some level, they just, we want people to
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like us and someone not liking us just doesn't feel good. That's probably evolutionarily
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programmed into us. And so I think it comes back to as humans, we need to connect. We need to have
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our core connections. And the problem though is instead of saying, oh yeah, I do have a core
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connection with my spouse, with my kids, with my parents, with my whatever, we start to say,
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I need that with everybody. Will you be my core attachment and connection? Will you, Ryan,
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will you during this interview? Are you like, you know, and we're not consciously saying that,
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but that's how we're emotionally reacting. And as a result, we're very vulnerable to even a hint
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of disapproval. This makes sense because I think about a child, I've got four kids. My youngest is
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two and without me and his mom, well, he would die frankly. Yeah. And so as a child, you have this
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life dependency on other people. And I think maybe we just forget that as we get older,
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we are no longer dependent on what anybody else does or says or how they behave or what they think
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or how they feel. We are completely independent of that. And yet maybe we just cling onto it because
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that's the map. That's the script we've been playing out for 18 years potentially or longer
00:21:05.620
in some people's cases. Sure. And I found that we can try to reject that or say that's not the case
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or try to, I don't care what people think, but when we're really honest, we do. And what is much
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more effective is a willingness to go towards that vulnerable, tender part of us and basically just
00:21:27.120
parent it like a young child. There's something there, maybe unmet needs or an aching or a longing
00:21:34.360
or a loneliness that we felt at different ages. Are you saying to do this on yourself? Is that what
00:21:38.760
you're suggesting is that you in a way parent yourself? I just want to make sure I wrap my
00:21:42.020
head around this concept. Yes. It's so important. So as someone who's really into growth and developing
00:21:47.200
yourself, you know, the ways that you are with your kids, probably different. I don't know your
00:21:52.080
upbringing, but different than your parents were with you. Maybe a safe guess to make.
00:21:56.700
I think in some cases, some are probably similar, but a lot of areas probably are different.
00:22:01.400
And you know, there's ways that, you know, every generation tries to be better with our kids. We try to,
00:22:06.460
you know, give them maybe what we didn't have or give them something that we think they really need.
00:22:10.740
And that's just part of growth and evolution. Being the best parent that you can be to your kids,
00:22:15.840
it's almost like taking that same energy and being that way. So let me give you a specific example.
00:22:20.980
Let's say there's a situation where you have a conflict with someone or you fear a potential
00:22:25.780
conflict with someone and you feel stressed about it. And that could be at work, that could be your
00:22:29.260
partner, that could be a date, whatever. You feel anxious. You feel, we feel this like unsettled,
00:22:33.540
ungrounded feeling. And then there's a lot of like, oh, I should say this. I should email that.
00:22:38.740
I, oh, you know, impulses for action. And I encourage people to slow down,
00:22:44.040
maybe go for a little walk and just try to find that quivery, uncomfortable feeling. And that's
00:22:50.000
where it takes the courage to be, you know, discomfort tolerance, to go towards the feeling,
00:22:54.300
the discomfort in our bodies. Where do I feel tense and quivery and uncomfortable?
00:22:58.880
Basically tune into that part of us. It's like, ah, I don't want, you know, John to be mad at me.
00:23:05.720
Ah, and, and then, and then here's the thing. Most people will don't even do that. But if you,
00:23:11.280
people do do that, then they kind of try to give that part of themselves like a very hasty,
00:23:16.440
uncompassionate pep talk. Well, get over it is basically the essence that we communicate to
00:23:22.900
ourselves. And it doesn't work just like it with a four year old who's, you know, scared of
00:23:26.960
something. And you say, come on, get over it. It's not going to work. And what's much more
00:23:30.940
effective with little kids and with ourselves is tuning into that energy and just offering empathy,
00:23:38.420
understanding, and unconditional love and support. Something like, yeah, it is uncomfortable that he's
00:23:45.600
upset. It doesn't feel good, does it? I don't like that feeling either. And it sounds so simple,
00:23:51.020
but I found that being able to do that is like one of the secrets to truly caring less.
00:23:57.060
Well, you're just dealing in reality. I think anything but that is an unhealthy,
00:24:02.680
false sense of reality. And if you're making your decisions based on assumptions that are incorrect,
00:24:10.000
how successful are you going to be? I think of the term, and I'm sure you're familiar with,
00:24:14.040
and have researched this as well is cognitive distortions. I've looked into this and this has
00:24:19.360
actually helped me a lot when I realized that we have these amazing supercomputers inside of our
00:24:26.600
skulls that serve us so well at the same time, have a tendency to sabotage ourselves, especially
00:24:32.340
when it comes to keeping ourselves safe and protected. So what we naturally believe is that
00:24:36.980
the scenario in this case, your interaction with another individual is significantly worse than it is.
00:24:44.000
Like you say one thing and you jump to the conclusion that they think that you hate them. And now you start
00:24:49.100
playing out that scenario based on a faulty assumption.
00:24:52.740
Yeah. Yeah. And then all your reactions, all your choices are, as you said, they're not grounded in
00:25:01.880
I think we do this a lot with texts. Like I'll read a text from a friend or something and I'll
00:25:05.540
literally, I'll dissect it. Oh, what did he mean by this word? And he used this punctuation instead of
00:25:12.720
an exclamation mark. So does that mean he's sad or down or happy or it's so strange that we do this.
00:25:19.840
Texting is a really interesting phenomenon because there's so much you can read and it's so easy to
00:25:27.240
Right. Well, just because it's, you only have a few characters. And so the emotion is by design
00:25:34.460
Anyways, I want to go back to what you were talking about when you were saying,
00:25:36.980
no, I interrupted you and we went off on a tangent. You were talking about the power of
00:25:41.280
saying no and why you should do that this afternoon. I found one thing that worked really
00:25:46.060
well for me and made saying no even harder, which I thought was good for me, was that I made a rule
00:25:51.860
that I wasn't allowed to explain myself either. So I would say no to people and not follow up with
00:25:58.940
an explanation or an excuse as to why I said no. And that was extremely uncomfortable.
00:26:04.720
Yeah. What a great little mini challenge that is to really go into the discomfort because that is
00:26:11.160
the, you know, we try to deal with the discomfort by either giving a ton of explanation or saying no
00:26:19.740
in a very long, soft way. That's unclear that we actually said no.
00:26:25.020
Right. Somebody may think you actually meant yes when you said no.
00:26:28.040
This week. And so maybe, you know, by the end of it, they're like, oh, okay,
00:26:32.660
I think you can do it in two weeks. So if people want to practice saying no, one, do it. And then
00:26:38.060
two, try to remove the long preamble, try to be clear and direct, and then take a page into the
00:26:43.440
book of Ryan's book here and just say like, no, and then try to limit or not have an explanation
00:26:49.900
or something like, no, I'm sorry, I can't make that. So you don't have to say, well, because I got
00:26:53.480
to take my cat to the whatever. It's just, no, I can't make it. And then what I found is that
00:26:58.900
when we don't feel like we don't have permission, we either go that soft over explaining route,
00:27:03.040
or sometimes we get a little bit overly hard. It's almost like, oh, I don't, I'm not allowed
00:27:07.600
to do this, but I do have a right. Damn it. And then we just say, no, no, I want to go to your
00:27:12.240
thing. And you have to accept that is kind of our, our attitude.
00:27:16.800
This is like an overcompensation at that point.
00:27:18.980
Exactly. And that's okay. If we look, if you explain it too much or you are a little hard,
00:27:23.840
that's perfect. It's just, it's messy. It's, that's how we learn. And then eventually when
00:27:28.420
we really get that, it's okay to say no, that we're not doing something wrong. And that takes
00:27:33.760
a while to practice. Then we can actually say no a lot more spaciously and lovingly. And we're just
00:27:40.380
a lot more relaxed. It's like, oh no, you can't make that. Thank you though. Thanks for the offer.
00:27:45.300
I appreciate that. And it's just, there's no energy. There's no tension in us. And that only comes
00:27:53.400
Man, just a quick timeout to tell you about something pretty exciting happening this Friday
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00:28:01.880
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This is just one of the many benefits when you band with us inside the iron council. And in addition
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man.com slash iron council. Again, order of man.com slash iron council guys. You can do that after
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the show. Let's get back to the conversation with Dr. Aziz. What's so fascinating about this to go
00:28:56.900
back to what we were talking about earlier is you naturally become more attractive at that point.
00:29:01.520
I realized in my financial planning practice, I was being the nice guy with my clients and they could
00:29:06.380
sense that. And so they were taking the other position, which is, well, this guy is desperate.
00:29:12.320
And so they felt like they had all the power, but when I became not that way and realized I don't need
00:29:17.360
to be desperate and I can say, no, I can walk away from a potential client engagement just as quickly
00:29:22.380
as they can. And I started taking that position. Then their position was, oh, we got to chase right
00:29:28.800
now. We have to play the position of this guy's in high demand or it's scarce. So we really want to
00:29:34.520
work with him. So my potential clients began to follow me and chase me as opposed to me continuing
00:29:40.360
to chase them. It was really, really interesting. Yes. I'm trying to think of, there's a very specific
00:29:45.200
example with my wife where someone invited her to do something and it just didn't quite work.
00:29:51.360
She just didn't want to in her schedule at that time or whatever. And she was going to say no,
00:29:54.880
but she felt anxious about saying no, like maybe I should say yes. And what I was sharing with her
00:29:59.680
is, you know, you're afraid that if you say no, this person's going to be upset with you.
00:30:03.520
But actually exactly what you were pointing out to is like, they're going to want you in their life
00:30:08.180
more. You're a little more scarce. Right. It's not like mysterious, even right. It's like,
00:30:12.880
well, I guess I can't have that whenever I want it. So let me offer something else. So absolutely.
00:30:17.520
That's, it's really important for people to, to see that it's not only not bad. It actually ends
00:30:23.840
up serving you and ultimately serving other people. Because when we do something from this
00:30:28.860
place of obligation, we're building a toxic sludge of resentment. And you do that long enough.
00:30:35.620
And it might not matter in a relationship where you never see the person again, but
00:30:38.480
other than for your own sanity, it'll spill over to other relationships for sure.
00:30:43.300
Yeah. Yeah. You'll feel disempowered because you know, you're close relationships. If you
00:30:47.160
don't, every time you say yes, when you want to say no, you're going to be accumulating
00:30:53.860
frustration and resentment points. And you might not even be aware of it. You might tell yourself a
00:30:59.420
story like, well, this is just what you got to do, or at least I'm a good person or whatever.
00:31:03.720
But underneath that, there's going to be something brewing and it's going to come out in funny ways.
00:31:09.280
That's a nice way to put it because it could come out in destructive ways, right? With
00:31:13.160
other relationships, whether that's with a boss or clients or your spouse or your children. And I've
00:31:19.160
been there and it's not pretty. Yeah. Yeah. Toxic is a good word for it.
00:31:23.440
And the point that I really liked in the book and in what you had talked about is
00:31:26.620
how freeing this is, how liberating it is, because I know there's a lot of guys who
00:31:31.540
play the nice guy. And then as they're playing it, they just feel so burdened, so strapped down
00:31:39.500
and trapped by being powerless. I mean, how uncomfortable is it to feel helpless in scenarios?
00:31:46.900
And I think a lot of guys are feeling that way. And what you're talking about here is
00:31:50.520
liberating yourself of that feeling. Absolutely. It's kind of like trying to go through life with
00:31:55.040
your hands handcuffed behind your back. The only thing is you put the handcuff, well, maybe that came
00:32:00.720
through your conditioning and development and whatever. You could say you put it on or it
00:32:04.280
was sort of just happened. But now at this point in your life, there is a key in your hand
00:32:08.380
that you could like unlock and then boom. And that's what I love seeing happen is when people
00:32:13.960
really get this stuff and start to practice it. And I'm like, whoa, it's one of those things that's
00:32:18.560
like personally epic, but in the broader scope of people around you in society, like no one even
00:32:24.960
knows. It's like, you're like, oh, I said no here. And then I went for that and I did this
00:32:29.220
assertive thing. And then that's like, whoa, this is rocking my world. And everyone else is like,
00:32:34.360
oh, oh, you said no there, huh? I didn't even know. Congratulations. Yeah. Life goes on.
00:32:39.760
But at that point, you're not doing it for them anyways. You're doing it for yourself. Have you
00:32:43.200
ever seen the, uh, there's videos out there where they'll stake a baby elephant, for example,
00:32:48.020
they'll stake it down to the ground. And then that baby elephant is trapped. And then as it gets older
00:32:52.660
and older and older, it doesn't even think at that point to move the stake, although it could easily do it,
00:32:57.580
but it's imposed its own limitations because it was conditioned at an early age to believe that
00:33:05.000
that stake was actually holding it back. Yeah. Have you seen stuff like that? It's absolutely
00:33:08.840
incredible. And we do the same thing all the time. This is exactly what we do.
00:33:12.580
You're right. And that's where we just don't even test the edge. I don't know what the baby,
00:33:17.660
what the elephant feels with humans. We think about the edge. It's just, it's like an electric fence.
00:33:24.680
There's just a lot of fear there. We might not even think it's an option, but you know, so for
00:33:29.720
example, maybe it's not even on your option list to say no, but then you look over at, you know,
00:33:34.780
so-and-so that you work with and you're like, wow, they say no easily. So we see alternative
00:33:40.500
potentials. We see life beyond that little space of rope, you know, that the elephant was trapped in.
00:33:45.360
And yet we don't go there and it all comes back to fear and this unwillingness to be uncomfortable.
00:33:55.760
You know, I'm going to be assertive. It's going to be so uncomfortable, or I'm going to have to have
00:33:58.260
this conversation with so-and-so with my partner or break up with this person. I don't want to.
00:34:04.580
And it's just this chronic avoidance and avoidance in the short term might provide a little bit of
00:34:10.780
relief, but in the longterm it's dismal pain. Well, and the other thing too, is having the
00:34:16.200
ability to be a little more assertive in your life will actually keep you from engaging in more
00:34:22.540
uncomfortable conversations. So the example I think of is let's take an employer, for example,
00:34:28.540
and he's soft and wants to play the nice guy. And he has a potential employee come into the office
00:34:34.120
who is a decent candidate. And because he's so uncomfortable, he hires that individual.
00:34:40.660
Well, come to find out this individual shows up late, slacks off, isn't a team player, and is just
00:34:46.720
a horrible, horrible employee. Well, now he's stuck because he doesn't want to have another
00:34:51.520
uncomfortable conversation, which is I have to let this individual go. The alternative to that is
00:34:57.060
in the first place, he wouldn't even hired that individual. And that saved an additional
00:35:02.040
uncomfortable meeting because he did the right thing in the first place.
00:35:05.420
Yes. That's a great example. When we avoid it, we start to, it's going to catch up to us. And I'm
00:35:12.500
laughing because I'm thinking about how that's how some men that I met, basically that's what led to
00:35:16.860
them being married was one little step at a time down this pathway of, I don't want to have that
00:35:22.440
uncomfortable conversation. Flash forward three, four, five years and they're in a relationship,
00:35:27.820
a committed relationship. It's not the right person for them.
00:35:29.960
Is this mostly what you deal with in your practice with individuals who are trying to
00:35:34.460
work through this? I mean, what do you see most often in your practice?
00:35:37.680
Yes. I work around confidence in general. I think niceness is one of the big manifestations of that,
00:35:42.620
that we help people with, but there's also, maybe it all comes back to niceness, but how to be more
00:35:47.740
bold in life in general. So that could be approaching who you want, being who you are, being more expressive,
00:35:54.000
being more direct, being able to show who you are in all the different domains of life,
00:35:58.460
your career, your relationships, your social life. And so I think niceness is one of the key
00:36:04.100
features as well as just a general inhibition or fear of being who we are in the world is a big one
00:36:10.700
that I help people through as well. And we talked about this earlier. I think seeking the approval of
00:36:15.480
others is okay in the right situations. I think what we see a lot in society today, especially in this
00:36:22.400
quote unquote self-help space is F what everybody else is thinking. And I don't care about anybody
00:36:27.400
else. And I don't think that's a healthy way either. I think there's certain people who are
00:36:31.640
qualified that you probably ought to consider how you're being viewed or what they think of you,
00:36:38.380
because they're going to give you critical feedback to, to improve in your life. If you
00:36:42.500
don't care about anything or anybody, I think you stunt your growth.
00:36:46.900
Right. Yeah. And you mentioned overcompensation earlier that I think that is right. That's just
00:36:50.880
like a pendulum swinging the other way. And it's like just a hardening inside. I think the ultimate
00:36:56.960
goal, not care at all what others think, because yeah, what about your relationships with your people
00:37:02.860
that you love, with your spouse, with your kids, with close friends, with clients, with whoever it is
00:37:08.220
that you're serving in the world to truly care nothing about how they see you or what they want
00:37:15.160
is a very lonely, painful existence. That's our goal. That usually comes from too many years of
00:37:20.560
caring too much. So we want to swing the pendulum and imagine it's going to be really great. But really
00:37:24.620
what we just want to do is get more into that mid range where we have more choice. And I do care
00:37:30.820
what my wife feels and thinks and wants. And I am able to sometimes say, this is what I need. This is
00:37:38.000
what's important for me. Let's have a conversation about this. This is what I like. This is what I don't
00:37:42.420
like. Just being more authentic and direct is the goal and open hearted in that where I care about
00:37:48.320
myself and I care about whoever I'm dealing with. Sure. Yeah. I mean, you talk a lot about choices and
00:37:54.580
then the other side of this too, that I see and you've addressed is creating boundaries. And this
00:37:59.760
is something that we have talked a lot about and how important those boundaries are. Can you walk me
00:38:05.720
through what you mean when you're talking about boundaries and how we can begin to establish healthy
00:38:11.200
ones to overcome this need to be nice? Sure. Yeah. I think the biggest first step for boundaries is to
00:38:19.240
know that they're already there and we just have to listen to ourselves. And many of us learned along
00:38:26.380
the way that you shouldn't, it doesn't matter what you want or what you feel or what you think, just do
00:38:29.720
it. It's kind of the message a lot of us got. So we kind of lose touch with ourselves. Maybe you can
00:38:35.520
even call it, some psychologists call it self alienation or sort of alienated from ourselves. Like,
00:38:40.280
I don't even know what I want and what I think and what I feel. Boundaries are there. The example
00:38:44.860
that I give in the book, which helps illustrate it is you're in your backyard and it borders your
00:38:50.960
neighbor. And you guys share a fence and you each have your backyard there. And in your yard, you have
00:38:55.240
a tree, a fruit tree, maybe a peach tree and some flowers and stuff. And just imagine this scenario.
00:39:01.760
You're in your backyard and your neighbor's in their backyard and your neighbor walks over,
00:39:08.140
opens the gate on your fence. He's like, hey, Ryan, how's it going? Walks towards you, steps on your
00:39:14.580
flowers on his way to saying hi to you, stops by your tree and picks several of the ripest, juiciest
00:39:20.840
peaches, starts to eat one. He's like, hey, Ryan, how's it going? Imagining that scenario, noticing, how do I
00:39:27.800
feel there? Do I like what's happening? And most people put that scenario out. There's sort of some sense
00:39:33.200
aversion, like, I don't like this. I don't like what they're doing here. And I picked that
00:39:39.120
kind of obvious example because that's happening all the time in our interactions. Someone interrupts
00:39:46.440
you when you're talking. Someone doesn't respond to you in a certain way, whatever it is. And we
00:39:51.740
have this inner like, I like that. And yet 9.9 times out of 10, we'll just be like, well, I should just
00:39:59.800
let it go. You know, he doesn't have any fruit. So he probably just had my peaches. Do you even
00:40:03.900
think we rationalize that far? Because I think a lot of times we just get caught off guard and we're
00:40:07.940
like, uh, uh, uh, like how would you respond to that situation? And so your default is, well, I guess I
00:40:13.360
just let it happen. Right. Yeah. Maybe like a freeze response to sort of watch, watch it unfold.
00:40:19.040
Right. Because I've been there, like I've had people catch me off guard with certain things
00:40:23.300
and I didn't know how to respond because I wasn't anticipating that happening. And so I just said,
00:40:29.800
yes, or so came to whatever it is their request was. I mean, I personally had that happen.
00:40:34.860
Sure. And that's where the knowing of ourselves and again, permission, it seems like a theme that's
00:40:40.760
coming up a lot in this conversation, but permission to have boundaries like anything else.
00:40:44.960
If it's top of mind, like if, you know, people listening are like, Oh yeah, I'm going to say no
00:40:48.720
today or two times in the next two days. You know, you will, your focus is on it. And the same thing
00:40:54.180
with boundaries, our focus is on it. We're thinking about it. And like, like if we literally were
00:40:59.280
imagining at the beginning of the day, I wonder what my bound, you know, where I'm going to have
00:41:03.020
boundaries today, what I'm going to say, what I'm going to do. And then it's in our mind,
00:41:07.660
you might be surprised. You might be in a situation where normally we're taken off guard
00:41:10.760
and we would say, Oh, hold on a sec. I'm not sure about that. And here's the thing about boundaries
00:41:15.960
is we don't have to know exactly what the right thing to do in that moment is or what we want.
00:41:22.180
We just might want to even put our foot in the door by just saying, Oh, hold on a sec.
00:41:28.260
Something's not right there for me. Sure. And that gives you a little bit of space and a little
00:41:32.160
bit of time to think about it. Yeah. That space is so critical, right? Then like you said, you hold
00:41:38.380
on, let me get back to you on that. Give me, give me a half an hour and I'll let you know. And now you
00:41:43.260
can collect and gather your thoughts before you engage in this opportunity to say no to somebody.
00:41:47.860
Yeah. And they're so subtle. Boundaries don't have to be like, don't ever climb into my fence,
00:41:53.080
you know, yard again. You know, it can be much more subtle than that. Like little small example.
00:41:57.840
There's a couple of people on my team that serve as a sort of consulting role and they have lots of
00:42:02.520
ideas for me and growing my business. They were put forth a lot. And I noticed in our earlier meetings,
00:42:08.180
I was just a yes man. I was like, Oh yeah, I can do that. Oh yeah. Cause a lot of them were,
00:42:11.560
were good ideas. But I realized the, hold on a second, I'm just taking on a lot here.
00:42:16.880
And so just recently, in one of the recent calls, they, they asked me a question and I was like,
00:42:21.560
Hmm, let me think on that one and get back to you next week. And that's an example of what I would
00:42:27.200
call micro boundary. It's just really small. It's not this big deal. And yet it was new,
00:42:32.760
the subtle pleaser in me or the other, I'm paying them for the services. I want to be a good client.
00:42:37.640
I want to follow their advice. That energy might make me again, just separate from myself and not
00:42:44.820
really even know what I think was right for me in that moment.
00:42:48.240
What's the difference between boundaries, which you talk about, and then choosing your rules,
00:42:52.280
which you also talk about. Hmm. That's a great question. Choosing them is very important because
00:42:56.820
we have default rules in our mind of what we're allowed to do and what we're not allowed to do.
00:43:02.240
The rules in a sense could be our boundaries, but they determine what's allowed. So if you have a
00:43:07.020
rule that says, don't ever interrupt anybody, that's bad. Then you're going to be in a situation
00:43:13.300
where you can't have a boundary when someone's talking all the time. Hmm. So the rule in that
00:43:18.960
case would prevent you from being able to have a boundary because you're like, maybe the person's
00:43:23.480
talking and talking and talking and you want to interrupt them or end the conversation. But in
00:43:26.940
your mind, somewhere in the back, there's a rule that says, oh, that would be impolite. That would
00:43:30.700
sure hurt their feelings. They really like telling you the story about their daughter's boyfriends,
00:43:35.320
mom's husband's motorcycle, which is a real thing. There was a guy that was a contractor that worked
00:43:41.260
in our house who would tell me stories that were like that far removed, like his daughter's
00:43:45.200
boyfriends, mom's dad. You're like, I don't care. Can you build my house, please?
00:43:49.240
And it was so good for me. So good for me because I had a little bit of that rule still don't
00:43:54.020
interrupt people. I'd been working on it for many years really, but that was like heavy lifting and
00:43:58.880
it was so good for me because I work as a clinical psychologist and then especially as a coach
00:44:03.180
and especially working with groups, I had to be able to interrupt people. Otherwise they just run the
00:44:08.920
show and steer the whole thing. I needed to be in a leadership role and move things along.
00:44:13.780
And so I'd work on it, but I was always very tactful about it. Kind of come up with the best
00:44:19.040
strategy again, trying to take care of people, be nice stuff in a way. With him though, it was great
00:44:24.460
practice for me because no subtle strategy worked. Right. They don't get it. I'd bludgeon it. So it'd
00:44:31.160
just be like, he'd be talking, talking, talking, talking. I would just be like, yeah, that sounds
00:44:35.160
great. Hey, let me ask you a question about the gutters. And that's like the level of skill I would
00:44:39.720
do it with, but it works. I would just do that more and more. And then my goal and my game became
00:44:44.760
how quickly can I do that? You know, how much of this story? So instead of listening to five minutes,
00:44:49.120
kind of listen to 30 seconds of it. Yeah. But you know, what's interesting about this too,
00:44:53.700
because I know there's guys who, instead of doing what you did, which I believe is the assertive thing
00:44:58.600
to do, they would just go run and hide to your point earlier. You're not giving yourself options.
00:45:03.380
You're letting somebody else dictate your behavior at that point. It's not healthy.
00:45:07.220
Sure. And then we'd run and hide. And then we'd go complain to someone else, a friend, a spouse.
00:45:12.220
Oh my, you know what he was like? Oh God, he doesn't shut up. What a bit. And we're real,
00:45:17.600
real, real tough guy when he's not around. Right. We get there and then we're quiet as a mouse.
00:45:23.120
How do you know what rules are serving you and which ones aren't? Because we're talking about maps and
00:45:29.540
we're talking about conditioning from the time that we were little. I think it's very hard for us to
00:45:34.440
know because don't interrupt people. That sounds like a good rule, but probably we wouldn't even
00:45:39.440
really think about whether or not we're adhering to that rule or not. Does that make sense?
00:45:43.760
Sure. Yeah. A lot of these rules are unconscious and we just kind of live by them. But
00:45:47.040
I think one of the best ways to start, well, I have an activity in the book called your bill of rights
00:45:51.480
and just sitting down and thinking about what are my rights? The bill of rights was a document
00:45:57.400
where they sat down and sort of like, let's think big here. It's the same thing in our own lives.
00:46:01.440
Like, what is a healthy relationship? Like, forget what I learned when I was a kid or what so-and-so
00:46:05.740
told me about never interrupting. Like, what is healthy? What feels right to me now as an adult
00:46:11.740
when I really tune in and just start to write out the rules with the phrasing, I have a right to.
00:46:16.740
So I have a right to interrupt people. That doesn't mean that you do it 100% of the time or do it
00:46:23.720
with harshness and cruelty. It just means I have a right to do it when needed. Here's some of the
00:46:28.620
ones that were really important to me that I had to give myself permission. I have a right to approach
00:46:32.900
someone to start a conversation with them. They may want it. They may not. And that's okay. They
00:46:38.160
could indicate that by saying no or turning away or whatever. That was very important for me for women
00:46:42.380
and dating, but also socially. I felt I was a bother and imposing upon anyone and everyone. I had a lot
00:46:47.260
of social anxiety around that when I was younger. So I have a right to initiate a conversation with
00:46:52.440
anyone and they have a right to say no. I have a right to ask for what I want. I have a right to
00:46:58.280
change my mind. I have a right to want to do something without being able to rationally explain
00:47:04.820
why that's the case. And you may say, well, where'd you come up with these or how did you get these?
00:47:09.560
Like, I don't know. These just sound good to me. Like these are rights that I want to give myself.
00:47:13.620
So it's an example of, I encourage people to write out the ones. And then if you want to dig up,
00:47:18.260
what are the ones that might be holding me back? And that's another section of the book where we
00:47:22.320
have you write out the rules and the ones that guide you almost always come in the form of should.
00:47:28.540
Maybe if it's the 1950s, you use the word must back in Ellis's days and stuff, but it's a should now.
00:47:35.020
So I should never interrupt someone. I shouldn't say no to my kids. I shouldn't say no to my wife
00:47:41.240
or my husband. I shouldn't say no to my boss. These are pretty big examples, but it could be all sorts
00:47:46.740
of nuanced stuff. So look at what the shoulds are and you want to write them down. And I do guide
00:47:52.260
people through this whole process in the book. I recommend people really go through it in detail
00:47:56.780
because then you want to start to look at, well, which of these serve me? Because some of your
00:48:01.320
shoulds might be, you want to follow them, right? I should never hit my kids. Like that's one that I
00:48:06.040
want to follow. So, but then there's others like I should never make anyone upset. You may want to
00:48:13.280
question that one. Right. Because there's not a whole lot of control that you have over that.
00:48:17.440
Right. Right. So then you can start to see which ones are reasonable and which ones aren't.
00:48:21.340
Yeah, that makes sense. Well, we're winding down on time. I think that's a good exercise. And
00:48:25.640
obviously anybody who's listening, it just would benefit them to pick up a copy of the book and go
00:48:29.520
through that exercise. In addition to everything else that you have in here, as we wind down, I want to
00:48:33.420
ask you a couple of additional questions. The first one, I let you know about half an hour ago,
00:48:38.080
what does it mean to be a man? I love it. I think to be a man, it's courage,
00:48:42.900
courage to be open hearted in the world, especially for men. To be a man is to develop
00:48:48.260
your courage to live with an open heart. And that to me, living with an open heart is being
00:48:53.740
able to tune in, feel your heart, feel your connection to yourself and others and live from
00:48:59.440
a place where you're connected to you and able to connect and give to others. And that means being
00:49:04.720
able to express from the heart, express my uniqueness, our uniqueness, and also express love
00:49:10.100
directly, openly, authentically, and fearlessly.
00:49:14.120
That's powerful. That's really powerful. I like that. Well, Aziz, how do we connect with you? If
00:49:18.520
we want to learn more about what you're doing and the work you're doing, pick up a copy of the book.
00:49:23.140
Yeah. Yeah. A couple of main ways. You could go to my main website, which is
00:49:27.740
socialconfidencecenter.com. It's got a free ebook there as well as information, blog stuff, videos,
00:49:34.620
links to my YouTube channel and podcasts and all the stuff that I got going on. And also people
00:49:39.480
are interested in the book itself. There's notnicebook.com, notnicebook.com. And that's
00:49:44.600
got links to get the book, but also extra videos and downloads and PDFs and all kinds of stuff.
00:49:50.680
That's all in the book, but then people listening to say the audio version or whatever can get all
00:49:55.040
the goodies there. We'll link it all up, but just want to let you know that I appreciate you coming on
00:49:58.900
the show today and sharing this. I mean, this is so, so important that guys understand why,
00:50:04.620
they feel the way they do, why they are playing the nice guy at times and certainly how to address
00:50:10.840
it and how to overcome it. So I really appreciate you imparting some of your wisdom. I know this is
00:50:14.540
going to serve a lot of the men listening. Fantastic. Yeah. This was really fun. It flew
00:50:18.160
by and I love your questions and it's such a, such a good topic. So I'm glad to be of service.
00:50:24.460
Gentlemen, there you go. My conversation with Dr. Aziz. I hope for those of you who feel like you
00:50:29.800
might be a little bit too nice. I hope this was a valuable conversation for you. This
00:50:34.560
is something that I've fallen prey to in the past. This is something Dr. Aziz, obviously,
00:50:38.560
as he talked about has fallen prey to in the past and there's a better way to live. There is a better
00:50:43.640
way to live. And I'm not saying that you have to be mean or take it to the extreme the other way,
00:50:47.940
but there's certainly a way to protect yourself, to be a little bit more selfish. And then of course,
00:50:53.440
accomplish bigger things for you and also for your loved ones. The people that you care about can
00:50:57.780
benefit from you not being so nice as well. So I would encourage you to connect with Dr. Aziz
00:51:02.780
online, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, wherever you're doing the social media thing, pick up a
00:51:06.920
copy of his book, Not Nice, subtitled Stop Pleasing People, Staying Silent and Feeling Guilty.
00:51:12.220
Connect with me on Instagram at Ryan Mickler. Most of what I'm doing these days, guys, is on
00:51:16.840
Instagram. So if you want to plug into what we're doing and connect with me there and learn about the
00:51:22.980
guests that we're having on and the programs that we're running, connect with me over on Instagram
00:51:26.240
at Ryan Mickler, R-Y-A-N-M-I-C-H-L-E-R. But if you're on Twitter or Facebook, we're also over there
00:51:33.420
as well. All right, guys, I'll let you get going for the day. Please, as I do, just go out and share
00:51:38.280
this. All right, we need to blow this thing up like I mentioned before. And the way that we're
00:51:41.580
going to do that is through this grassroots movement of Order of Man, which is not me
00:51:45.980
advertising and pitching and hawking products. It's you, the men engaged in the fight to go out there,
00:51:53.020
to share what you know, to share your resources. And I hope this has been valuable for you. If it
00:51:57.480
has been valuable for you, I would humbly ask that you share it with another man who it might benefit
00:52:02.280
as well. All right, guys, go out there, take action, and become the man you are meant to be.
00:52:10.680
Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. If you're ready to take charge of your life
00:52:15.280
and be more of the man you were meant to be, we invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.