Suresh Madhaven is a 13 year veteran of the New York City Police Department and the founder of 2B Tactical Gear, a company that provides tactical gear to law enforcement officers. In this episode, we discuss the role of men in a fatherless society, the importance of men's rites of passage, and the challenges faced by men in law enforcement.
00:00:00.000Guys, if you turn on the news or any social media apps, you're likely to be met with a myriad of fantastic headlines, the latest political scandal, racial tensions, violence, or any number of issues these outlets use to get our attention.
00:00:13.400Of course, most of this is exaggerated to get us worked up without providing any real solutions to some of the issues that actually do exist.
00:00:22.100My guest today, Suresh Madhaven, and I begin to break down some of these issues and work towards unpacking and discussing solutions rather than focusing on the outrage that is used against us.
00:00:34.420We talk about the importance of men's rites of passages, breaking down the concept of systemic racism, crying wolf on the real issues, which you see a lot, movements against masculinity, and ultimately the role of men in a fatherless society.
00:00:49.580You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.
00:00:55.680When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient. Strong.
00:01:05.180This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.
00:01:14.360Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler. I am the host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement.
00:01:21.440I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're back. I'm back as well. I've been on vacation with my family for about three weeks, which was nice.
00:01:28.480But it's also nice to get back into the office and get back after this because we have a lot of work to do.
00:01:33.120So it's interesting as I was getting back into the swing of things, I've been doing a lot of work on social media, as is my life and my business revolves around making sure that I'm sharing this information and this mission via social media.
00:01:47.580Instagram is playing games with my accounts. And so you may not be able to tag me. You may not be able to mention me on Instagram, on your accounts.
00:02:00.000Reach is being limited. You may not even see it. Or you may be asked if you really, truly want to follow me because apparently I've been putting out false and misleading information, I think is the term they use.
00:02:11.860So guys, we need to spread this mission. All right. I don't know how else to say it other than the social media overlords do not like us talking about masculinity.
00:02:24.280They don't want us talking about it. And if you've gotten any value from any of the conversations and resources that you've gathered here, all I ask is that you share, take a screenshot, tag it.
00:02:34.760If you can share it on Facebook, share it on Twitter, share it on Instagram, uh, and let people know what you're listening to. Cause I try to put out real information.
00:02:43.940I try to put out the truth. I try to put out, uh, things that are going to serve you and your families and your businesses and your communities as well.
00:02:50.600So we're trying to do a good thing here. And, uh, I ask in return that you help spread the word because that's what's going to fight against, uh, the silencing that, uh, seems to be taking place more and more, especially with, uh, my social media accounts.
00:03:02.020So please do that. Leave a rating review while you're at it. Cause that'll help us climb in the charts as well. And, uh, in a way overcome some of the shadow banning that may be taking place.
00:03:11.140So I need your help in that. So please do that. All right. That's all I have by way of announcements. I'm going to make another announcement later, uh, in the podcast that I think you, especially if you're a father are going to be excited about.
00:03:23.020But for now, I just want to get into the conversation. Uh, my guest today is a fascinating individual. Uh, we've been connected for some time now on Instagram, speaking of Instagram.
00:03:32.020Uh, his name is Suresh Madhaven and he is a 13 year, a veteran police officer. He's also the founder of an extremely, extremely successful, uh, company, which provides law enforcement officers, innovative protective gear.
00:03:45.900It's called two, two, one B tactical. Uh, but guys, he's got some incredible insights into some of the most polarizing subjects today.
00:03:53.020Uh, and as a black police officer, he's seen both sides of the increasing issues and tensions and challenges between the public and also law enforcement.
00:04:03.720So guys, it's always been my goal with a podcast to have powerful conversations with men from all walks of life so that we individually can all round out our perspective of masculinity and our roles in society.
00:04:16.220And this one, gentlemen, does not disappoint.
00:04:20.940Suresh, what's up, brother? Glad to see you, man. I know this has been a long time in the works.
00:04:35.060Uh, this is the afterburner orange, right?
00:04:37.480Afterburner orange is so good. It's mildly addicting.
00:04:41.260So they've got a, I've got the inside scoop. I think they've got a new flavor coming out here very quickly for, uh, it's echoed Charles's flavor.
00:04:49.900And I don't know, uh, I don't know if I'm supposed to disclose what it is, so I won't, but, uh, it too is going to be delicious.
00:04:56.320It's going to be a close fight for, uh, the best between that and afterburner orange.
00:05:02.240Yeah. The apple's good. The apple's good.
00:05:05.400I got to tell you, I am like so pumped, um, up where I was from and, uh, where I'm going to be, uh, this chain called Wawa is pretty big.
00:05:16.780It's like a, you know, you get gas and like deli, whatever.
00:05:19.960And, uh, this stuff is now in Wawa, which is like amazing.
00:05:26.200So to like, see this stuff, to see how much they've grown, to see it in Wawa next to monster energy and Red Bull is kind of wild, but it's awesome at the same time.
00:05:37.200Yeah, it's wild, but it was also a testament to the power of the opportunities that we have here in, you know, this country.
00:05:43.200And if you work hard and you're diligent and you put your head down and you get after it, that, uh, man, things can happen.
00:06:13.300It's just, it's the story that pretty much everyone in my life told me would not be possible.
00:06:20.100And, uh, I, not to say that I did it to prove them wrong, but I did it to prove myself right.
00:06:27.980I wanted to prove to myself that listening to the noise around you and which holds true today, more so than ever, listening to the noise around you of people who are trying to create a narrative.
00:06:42.480And write your story is such a flawed way to be, you write your own story.
00:06:49.400You create your own feet future and it's not the media.
00:07:27.300So it's some element of truth, but it's usually exaggerated or made out to be more than it typically is, but that's their story.
00:07:36.860And I've, I've had people in my life, whether it's my parents who have shared their story with me.
00:07:42.520And part of that has been powerful and productive for me and other parts of their story.
00:07:47.880I'm like, I don't want anything to do with that because that doesn't actually serve me.
00:07:52.420So I like that you're talking about creating your own story, writing your own story in spite of all of the other baggage that's been unloaded onto you over, you know, 20, 30, 40 years of your life potentially.
00:08:05.600Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's so important that, uh, young men understand that because not all young men growing up in this country, in this world, but let's focus on this country, um, have that father figure that, that, that guide, uh, to show them the way, uh, someone to emulate, um, even those with that father figure.
00:08:35.380In our society, like Ryan, what's our right of passage in the American culture? Like, what is the right of passage for a young man in America turning over into an adult, a man?
00:08:51.440I can't think of one. I don't think we have, when you go to other countries, I've traveled around the world. Uh, we spoke about that a little bit. Uh, my mother's from a foreign country in all these cultures, all these societies for young men to young boys,
00:09:05.260to turn into a man, there's always a rite of passage in some cultures. It's something drastic in other cultures. It's maybe something not so drastic, but it still exists. And it's a test. And that test is a testament to how they view the coming of age.
00:09:25.120I didn't have to go through anything as a young boy here. You know, I, I, I turned 18 and that was it. They're like, Oh, you're 18 now. So if you want, you can buy a scratch off lottery ticket. That's awesome. I'm like, okay, well, what is there? What is there? You know, I'm, you know, you, you, you know, for sure, there's some cultures where it's like, you know, lifting a stone, moving this, going on a journey, uh, for X amount of days.
00:09:52.540Uh, and you have to just survive in the wilderness. Um, I did that in boy Scouts, something else that changed my life. And, um, I stayed through, I stayed all the way through, did my Eagle project.
00:10:02.500And that was something where I had the influence of other fathers, other men, and it taught you different life skills. It taught you. We had one of the merit badges was wilderness survival. We were kids. I don't even know how old we were.
00:10:15.060And they threw us in the woods for three days. And they were like, you, you, like you have an apple, a peanut butter sandwich, some rope matches and like a tent. And I don't even know if that would be allowed in today's culture. It would be like completely canceled and viewed as like, you know, abuse or something.
00:10:30.860But me and my buddies, we did it. We made it through. We immediately went to Burger King as soon as the adults picked us up, but like we, we did it. And it was something incredible that I don't see young men in this country today having to do.
00:10:47.940And these are the things that helped shape who I became, had it not been for things like the Boy Scouts, things like, uh, one of my, you know, my neighbors, uh, who I became friends with their son and his father, uh, a former, a Navy veteran, and just an all around incredible man, a white man took me under his wing and helped raise me, helped show me the way, helped teach me about sports, helped show me how to weld, how to fix a car.
00:11:13.080All these things because he saw, I didn't have that in my world. These are all the things that happened to me along the way. Serendipitous, maybe, maybe it was the Lord coming down and saying this, this young man needs guidance, but it helped me get to where I am, where I realized today I wouldn't be where I am. I wouldn't have accomplished what I did if not for that. So that's one of the breakdowns I see in our society. We talked about that. I know offline and a lot of these issues, we're going to get into it.
00:11:41.160I know about policing and some of the things happening with African-Americans in this country. Um, it's no secret. The breakdown of the family structure in the African-American community is horrific. And you have all these homes with these good young men, bright young men, uh, you know, talented, uh, gifted, uh, from a school standpoint, gifted physically in sports as we clearly see, yet they have no father figure in their home.
00:12:10.840They have no guidance in their home and they're led astray. And when you're led astray, you ultimately are going to run into the police. Right. And that's never going to go well, especially if you're committing crime. You know, I ran into the police. I wasn't committing crime. I was just the dark kid in an all white town.
00:12:28.880And my mother told me the way to be when I encountered the police. And I knew that if I wasn't that way, when the white cops approached me to harass me or, you know, maybe mess with me, I knew that the fear was not going to be from the cops.
00:12:46.220I knew that if I didn't act accordingly and the cops, God forbid, told my mother, my mother would kill me. My mother would beat me. Right. That fear, which is right. That's good. And true. That's how it should be. Right. Right. It should be like that. But I don't think it's like that anymore. We're in the generation where people want to be friends with their kids and they don't want their kids to get upset with them or pissed off at them. And, you know, I'm like, you know, I can't, we're living in this, like, almost like twilight zone. A buddy of mine, you know, the other day I saw him, he,
00:13:16.220corrected his son, corrected his son. His son was like five or six years old. He corrected his son about something he told him not to do. And he corrected him. And his son started crying and got upset and went to his, his wife and was like, you know, crying. I said, what happened? And he said, dad yelled at me and it hurt my feelings. And I'm, I watched my buddy go up and like kind of quasi apologize. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you doing?
00:13:45.120I'm apologizing. You told him not to do something. He did it. You yelled at him. He gets upset because you yelled at him. And now you're apologizing for hurting his feelings. I said, what are you teaching him? What are you teaching him right now? You know, I grew up without a dad and I know that was wrong. You know, so I don't have children, but I knew that was wrong. That's not how you do. And you look at those little incidents and people say, how did we get to where we are in our society today?
00:14:13.480And it's those little micro incidents that are happening in these homes across our country, the homes without fathers and the homes with fathers who are misguided. And fast forward a generation. And here we are, here we are.
00:14:27.600Why do you think so many people, or I should say it this way. Why do you think so few people are talking about the issues with fatherless homes in the black community, but also just generally in society?
00:14:42.100We're talking about criminal reform and systematic racism and welfare and handouts and all these other things. And it seems to me that very few people like you and me are actually talking about the root, the stem, the real issue, which is noble, honorable, virtuous men stepping in as father figures.
00:15:04.260Father would be ideal. Father figure is a good second best. Sounds like you had some father figures in your life and nobody's talking about it. And that I feel like if we could address that and work on that, we would begin to solve a lot of the problems, the, the result of fathers missing in the home, but nobody's talking about it.
00:15:26.540No, it's, it's so easy to talk about. Black man is in the midst of committing a crime. Black people call the police on him. The police arrive. Black man doesn't listen to the police, disrespects the police, doesn't listen to their orders. And there's an altercation. Something happens. He's going into his car. They tell him not to go into the car.
00:15:55.040He takes the cops. He takes the cops weapon and whatever it may be. We've seen it all happen. And the man ends up getting shot and, or maybe killed. And everyone is looking at that situation. No one wants to back out, back. Let's look back out from that and say, what led to that man of color, young man being in that situation? What led to it? It's not the situation.
00:16:25.040You got to look. It's like, I know you do woodworking. I, I, I, I tinker in woodworking. I like, like crown molding and stuff like that. I'm a big, like woodworking nut. And sometimes when I go to buddy's houses to help, I like working on old farmhouses and stuff like that. And I go, uh, sometimes I'll like do a quick assessment. Right. And I'll, as you know, you, sometimes you pull a wall down and the studs come with it. And you're like, Oh man, I'm like, you got some termite damage here. And they're like, Oh man, like, when did that happen?
00:16:55.040It's been happening. Right. It's been happening. This didn't happen yesterday. Like the termite sitting coming yesterday to this wood overnight. And now everything's crumbling, man. This has been happening. You got to go back. You got to go back to the root of where it began. Like these young men who are being killed. Let's go back. Yes. We don't want them being killed. No one wants to be killed. Right. I get nervous when I get pulled over by the police, but guess what?
00:17:19.700I try not to get pulled over by the police. So I operate my motor vehicle in a, in a sane and legal manner. I have all my documents in order. I wear my seatbelt. I don't have my music turned up to, you know, volume 100. So everyone around me can hear my music. I do the things that I feel like I'm supposed to do. And it helps me avoid the system. If you feel like as a black man or white man, whatever, that the system is broken. There's three parts. There's three things you could do. One, avoid the system.
00:17:49.700By your own conduct. Okay. Everyone says systemic racism, systemic racism in the front, which is crazy because most of these cities, the police chief is black. The mayor is black. The city council is black. Everyone's black. Everyone's all the upper echelon, all the brass and the police, they're all black. So if you're going to say that police department is systemically racist, that means you're saying the black police chief, the black deputy chief, the black captains, black lieutenants, black mayor and black city council, they're all the problem.
00:18:18.740Well, I think what, when people are using that term systematic racism, I don't actually think they're using it as the definition of the word. Like when I hear systematic racism, I break down those words. What is racism? Well, it's any sort of behavior action negatively towards another individual solely based on immutable characteristics, like their skin color.
00:18:41.560Systematic systems, right? Systematic systems, right? Systems in place that deliberately and intentionally target somebody based on their race.
00:18:52.560That's what I think. That's what I think when I hear that, but people aren't using it that way. What they're saying a lot of the times is remnants of past systematic racism, which I readily admit existed. I mean, you'd be a fool not to admit that systematic racism did actually exist at one point in this nation.
00:19:11.960And that systematic racism now is the remnants of those issues in the past.
00:19:22.120Yes. Yes. And if you talk to older black men, it's so funny because I have great conversations with older black men and older black men are wiser, right?
00:19:36.500They've been they've been they've been here for a few decades longer than all of us. And when you say systemic racism to them, they laugh and they're like, son, you don't know what systemic racism is.
00:19:52.100Right. You know, I had a conversation a few weeks ago with a black gentleman.
00:19:55.860And he was probably he was maybe mid to late 70s. And he said, these young men today, these young black men today, they don't know how good they have it.
00:20:08.380And I said, wow, wow, that's a that's a bold statement from a black man.
00:20:13.300He said, there was a time where as a black man, there were literally things I couldn't do in this country.
00:20:21.960There was a time where there was literally places I couldn't go in this country.
00:20:27.580There were educational institutions I just could not apply to.
00:20:32.360There were buildings that I just couldn't walk to. There were water fountains that I couldn't, you know, all these things he named.
00:20:38.220He said, can you name me one thing today that a young black man can't do?
00:20:45.900And I said, actually, I can't. I can't.
00:20:51.940So his definition of systemic racism was vastly different than the kids with their thousand dollar cell phone throwing Molotov cocktails at the police in the streets in Portland are saying is systemic racism.
00:21:07.340But do you think these issues in let's let's take the black community, for example, and I know you can't speak for everybody in the black community.
00:21:14.840Right. But do you think that there are issues that.
00:21:19.260There's some validity to what they're saying, or do you think it's just the interpretation of the stories and the baggage that they got from other people,
00:21:28.400either currently or in the past that we were talking about earlier, that makes them think something exists that isn't actually there.
00:21:35.060I think that that's a phenomenal question.
00:21:39.740I think some of what they are being taught, maybe young children.
00:21:46.980Is based on what happened decades ago.
00:21:51.300And it is an ugly past that this country will probably never live down.
00:23:50.900You know, part of what my mother taught me was you have to take those things, observe what's happening, notice what's happening, try to avoid them in the future if avoidable.
00:24:26.020And he said something on Jocko's podcast.
00:24:28.860He said, don't let the arrow you just missed affect the arrows in your quiver.
00:24:33.400Because if you're thinking about the one you just missed and you're pulling out the second one, guess what's going to happen with the second one, right?
00:24:42.880So I just had the mindset of don't let the one situation that just happened right now affect me as I now move forward and I go into the next situation and I meet the next person.
00:24:56.140So it was very easy for me when that teacher did that to me to now move forward and every teacher I ran into that was a white, short hair, blonde female say, she's next.
00:25:08.000She's going to she's going to get me next.
00:25:09.960And that would have changed my energy and my mood around how I was with them, which could have potentially led them to treat me differently.
00:27:19.140Around a whole bunch of white people that I saw working their butt off every single day just to like come home and like put some food on their table.
00:27:27.540And the man who helped raise me was one of them.
00:27:59.900I think that term white privilege is disingenuous when people use that, when they throw it around.
00:28:05.180Oh, that's just your white privilege speaking.
00:28:06.720I don't really actually think they believe that there's some sort of privilege that I have access to that they wouldn't necessarily have access to.
00:28:16.020I think it's meant as an insult, as a critique on something that may not fully exist, as an excuse for maybe somebody's own poor behavior or own missed opportunities based on their own set of circumstances or their own actions and behaviors.
00:28:34.900And just because they miss those opportunities or don't acknowledge them or fail with them doesn't mean that some opportunity I have takes away from anything that that individual may have.
00:30:53.160And to me, to see women now coming forward out of the woodwork 30 years later saying, 30 years ago, this guy brushed past me or touched my shoulder.
00:31:08.600Or made a comment about how attractive you were.
00:31:44.820It drowns out the real victims of sexual harassment.
00:31:48.080And when she made that point, I was like, wow, you're right.
00:31:51.160Because now the woman who actually gets raped and sexually assaulted, she's like kind of marginalized with the women who are like, he looked at me funny.
00:32:04.680You know, so if everything is sexual misconduct or everything is racism, then anytime anybody brings anything up, it's like, oh, here we go again.
00:32:14.200You know, I got to hear about the white privilege.
00:32:17.180I got to hear about the sexual assault.
00:32:18.880And I'm not saying that to diminish any of that.
00:32:20.860I'm saying that it's hard psychologically to take all of that and assume that it's all that serious and that grave.
00:32:32.360When we know for a fact, it just really isn't like a flag or a commercial or a car being somehow racist just because somebody decided one day it was.
00:32:44.060All right, guys, I'm going to step away from the conversation very briefly because I've got some exciting news.
00:32:49.480A lot of you are probably already aware of this.
00:32:51.540But if you're not, you need to know that I'm excited to announce that the order of man empire is expanding as my son, my oldest son, will be launching his own podcast in the coming weeks called man in the making.
00:33:07.160As a father and son, we're going to be talking about the issues that need to be talked about that are always the most comfortable to talk about.
00:33:14.300This is things like money and drugs and alcohol and sex and pornography and culture and religion and all of the uncomfortable, awkward conversations that we as men know are important, but struggle with.
00:33:28.920We're going to be having some of these conversations and talking about some of these issues.
00:33:32.520But he's also going to be interviewing successful men and learning from them how a boy becomes a man and transitions into manhood.
00:33:39.940So if you're a father of a son or you have a desire to be or you will be at some point, this is going to be an incredibly powerful resource for you.
00:33:48.420There isn't anything out there like this.
00:33:50.960And I'm excited to have my son working closer with me, me with him, and then him have some interest in what we're doing here and taking this to the next level.
00:34:00.900So we'll be sure to let you know as we get more information.
00:34:04.060But if you want to learn more about what we're doing and also get notified when the podcast drops, then head to order of man.com slash man in the making order of man.com slash man in the making.
00:36:23.900The people who are the most, the people who are the loudest about, you know, Black Lives Matter, justice, no justice, no peace, all this stuff.
00:36:39.120The people who are the loudest about that are typically the people who are the most vile toward me.
00:36:45.920When I say, you know what, how do you get rid of racism?
00:36:51.320I think Morgan Freeman or Denzel Washington said, stop talking about it.
00:36:54.760Stop talking about, stop perseverating on it and move past it.
00:36:58.880I'm not saying it doesn't exist because I know people who know my story know I experienced it from my own department.
00:37:06.300I worked for an all white police department.
00:37:07.980I was the first officer of color to be hired in the department's history.
00:37:13.920People call me Jackie Robinson because no one ever thought that this all white town that even wore white caps that they say had a tie to an organization that, you know, I was the first.
00:38:03.260So I will say that what is out there, the privilege that I feel like that some maybe white people have is that certain times I go into a store and if I'm just coming from the gym or something, I see the looks that I'm getting.
00:38:23.480Maybe they're tracking me through the store.
00:38:25.340Yeah, maybe they're looking out, is this guy going to steal something or something like that?
00:38:28.440I feel that a little bit from time to time.
00:38:31.600Those are the little things that I say that, okay, if I was white, that probably would not be happening.
00:40:24.960And, you know, I had, you know, a little bit of a bump from having my friend's white father, you know, kind of guide me and pull me up and, you know, show me the way.
00:42:48.540Just like the fat guy has to drive past all the fast food stores and not take that Coca-Cola and that Mountain Dew and go for that bottle of Smart Water and, you know, hit the gym instead of hitting the couch.
00:46:01.180Can you imagine if you have that father figure in your home guiding you, giving you that mentorship, teaching you, keeping you on that path?
00:46:10.360Imagine how powerful young men, white, black, purple.
00:47:26.100It's not a big deal what other people do.
00:47:28.020I'm like, look, this is how it happens.
00:47:30.680You know, it's these little micro movements in redefining words and attempting to change culture and tweak the norms and make things acceptable that maybe oughtn't be acceptable.
00:47:44.460And if we don't start talking about it and we don't draw the line in the sand and say, no, you're not actually going to do this because the lines are already drawn.
00:47:53.280And here's what I'm going to talk about.
00:47:54.600Yeah, people are going to get after you and they're going to get after me because we're talking about things they deem unimportant.
00:48:00.020But I'm telling you, every little movement moves the narrative, the Overton window, just a little more, a little more, a little more.
00:48:06.640And then 10 years, 20 years, 40 years from now.
00:48:11.340I look back on my childhood in the 80s and over that 35, 40 year time frame.
00:48:17.160The culture looks a lot different than it did not that long ago because we let these things creep in and they take hold and the Overton window moves and moves and moves.
00:48:27.940Yeah. And if you don't, if you don't address it and you don't speak up and you don't hold court to say, hey, everyone, let's take a look at this and let's know that most people, the bottom 99 percent see it happening.
00:48:43.040Well, but kind of like started like they don't want to see it.
00:48:46.200They're like cognitive blindness sets in or they'll say that really doesn't affect me.
00:48:51.500Right. Yeah. So let me just let that go.
00:48:53.420It doesn't really affect me personally.
00:49:10.300Within about two minutes, it was very slow, it was very slow, but within two minutes, I didn't realize he had managed to move his arm into a position that.
00:49:21.240But at the two minute and one second mark, he was able to completely turn over and get on top of me.
00:49:27.240OK, and it's in the obvious, you know, it's called sweet.
00:49:31.920So I said, wow, I was like, God, that came out of the blue.
00:49:36.240And afterwards I said, I was like, wow, that happened.
00:49:38.800Like you did that so fast. It happened out of the blue.
00:49:40.920Like I didn't, he's like, do you know, for two minutes I was moving my hand from here to on top of my belly to brace, to create like, you know, against your hip.
00:49:54.940And I was waiting and waiting and waiting for you to move.
00:49:59.620And every time you move, I just move my hand like half an inch and you didn't even notice it.
00:50:03.940I think you noticed it, but you didn't really do anything about it.
00:50:06.520And then it took a full two minutes within jujitsu. Seems like an hour. Seems like an eternity.
00:50:11.460And he said, and then it happened. He said, so that didn't just happen.
00:50:14.500So it was a progression and I did nothing about it.
00:50:19.680Mm hmm. You didn't react to that at all.
00:50:22.360I didn't react. I kind of felt it happening, but it didn't seem like anything that was threatening to me.
00:50:28.180So I let it go. I'm like, oh, he's just moving his arm a little bit. He's just wiggling.
00:50:32.120He must just be wiggling. He's trying to just wiggle.
00:50:34.440Oh, and man, boom, it hit me. It hit me.
00:50:38.520And that's what's going to happen in this society.
00:50:40.560We're all letting these little things go by, little things go by.
00:50:44.140And one day we're going to wake up and it's going to be like, boom.
00:50:47.680And people are going to be like, wow, how did this happen?
00:50:50.820How did that happen overnight? Nothing happens overnight.
00:50:55.080Success doesn't happen overnight. You don't gain a hundred pounds overnight.
00:51:01.900And if you don't take the time to stop and notice and recognize and say, this might be a problem.
00:51:08.280This is like a this is the incremental problem.
00:51:11.320And it's like those little things along the way.
00:51:15.660Take care of them when they're when they're small problems and you prevent the big problem.
00:51:20.760Right. We're not doing that as a society.
00:51:22.780I want to go back to you in law enforcement.
00:51:25.520I know you said you you serve 13 years in law enforcement.
00:51:28.880Do you see I mean, it's clear if you were to watch the news 24 seven that there's there's a shift in policing.
00:51:39.780At least that's what it appears to be, because that's what the media wants you to believe.
00:51:44.280Right. I don't think all that much has probably changed in the past 10 years.
00:51:48.800I just think it's louder now and people think it's an issue.
00:51:51.200But but what is what is your take as somebody from the inside who has seen law enforcement and the way that law is upheld and administered in this country?
00:52:01.720You know, what what's your take on the way we're doing it?
00:53:24.840So you're we're not going to see that's not the last incident of a George Floyd, Derek Chauvin that we're ever going to see in our lifetime, you know, and I know we're going to see it again.
00:53:39.180And of course, we hope it never happens, but we will see it again.
00:53:44.080We want to see less and less and less to say we want to never happen again is almost, I would say, impossible because of the amount of police interactions with people and, you know, human beings at policing.
00:53:56.840Until we have RoboCop and robots are policing.
00:53:59.960I don't think we're going to not see things like that.
00:54:03.000So that starts to present if you're talking about even getting into like federal policing and that starts to get into a whole nother arena with its own set of problems outside of what we're experiencing now.
00:54:20.360Before you talk about the actions of police officers, I ask them and I, of course, at, you know, at events and things like that, I hear people talking and throwing out there and I'll say, how many years did you do?
00:54:57.220Well, you know, but to be fair, though, there is a there is a line here because I don't.
00:55:02.640And here's one thing I'll hear quite often is, you know, like, well, if you've never served, then don't talk about it.
00:55:07.060It's like, no, that's actually not correct, regardless of people, whether or not they've served in the police department or in the military are still entitled to their opinion.
00:55:17.220It ought to just be an educated opinion.
00:55:22.140But there is a line between, yes, still, you're welcome to have an opinion.
00:55:27.220That's why we have this great country.
00:55:28.600But let's just make sure it's an informed opinion before you just go run in your mouth reckless about something you don't understand.
00:55:33.440Yes. Like, I literally have had people who've said, why did he shoot the knife out of her hand?
00:55:57.920So there are people out there who truly believe that a police officer can draw their gun and shoot a knife out of someone's hand that's waving it around.
00:56:37.060Like. Police and I worked for a department that was really progressive, that offered a lot of training, but it was.
00:56:46.040Not even close to the training that I think police officers should have.
00:56:50.440I got trained after being a police officer when I started training with guys like Dom Rosso, when I started training with guys like to land, you know,
00:57:03.020I started training with guys who really knew what they were doing, like real tactical operators.
00:57:09.240And I spent my own money traveling around the country to meet with these guys and train with them multiple times.
00:58:02.720And sending social workers like people don't know.
00:58:05.140I share this with people and they're like, what?
00:58:07.000I'm like, you know, anytime a social worker had to make a house call on a mentally ill subject, they called the police for an escort because they were worried.
00:58:15.420They were worried that they would go into this home and maybe something would happen.
00:58:20.420There'd be a mental health episode and they were worried for their safety.
00:58:24.220So every time a social worker went to the house of someone mentally disturbed, they called the police for an escort and we had to go knock on the door first.
00:58:33.160And then we had to stand in the living room and just kind of like stand there in the corner while they had the discussion on the couch.
00:59:23.360And I said, you know, but the people who are in screaming defund the police and send social workers, they're just saying that they don't know.
00:59:30.400So we need more training, but because police training is horrific, but we also need a better understanding from the public of what police work actually is and what it entails and the things that happen happen in real time for the cops.
00:59:49.700Like, I go to work now and I have to make decisions based on an email that comes in because our factory is maybe short and, you know, material or whatever.
01:00:00.380And I have some time to analyze that decision and I can make a decision.
01:00:04.480And even if I make the wrong decision, what's the worst?
01:00:28.440So most people, they go to work every day and they feel like they got to make tough decisions, but those decisions don't infect their livelihood and their life.
01:00:39.640So we need a better understanding from the public on that front.
01:00:42.580But before we even look at all that, we can avoid all of it altogether.
01:00:47.120We can have the worst trained cops in the world who are just like complete bumbling fools and don't know how to deal with people if you avoid the police.
01:00:56.500If you don't commit crime and you don't even see the police, you don't see the police.
01:01:15.980I don't run into the police because I don't commit crime.
01:01:18.120You know, I don't hang out in crime-ridden areas because I just know that, like, even if I'm not committing a crime, if I'm in a high crime area, I may get stopped by the police.
01:01:29.700Step two, if you happen to get tied up in the system, you make a wrong turn, you're hanging out with the wrong guy, or they pull you over for no reason.
01:02:01.220If that's what you truly believe, although that's not the reality, right, because ratio-wise, the police kill more white people annually than black people by far compared to 15% of the black people committing 51% of the crime.
01:02:14.420Ratio-wise, more white people are getting killed.
01:02:18.420But if you're a black man and you get stopped by the police right now in 2021 and you know what's going on in this world, what are you going to do?
01:02:26.400Well, you should probably be respectful.
01:03:43.700Which it sounds like based on what she said with the vest and everything, which ended up turning into your company, she's had some pretty good insight, even though you didn't initially like it the way it maybe came across or the way she shared it initially.
01:03:57.160I mean, it was, oh man, she was tougher than having a mom and dad sometimes, you know, but she's, you know, one of the, well, yeah, she had to be.
01:04:13.340I got to tell you, back in the day, as you probably know, when we got out of high school, guys who didn't really have a direction and maybe college wasn't for them, they went into the military.
01:04:50.320They get some, you know, some, you know, some guidance and some structure in their world.
01:04:54.980I see no movement whatsoever to say, young black men, if you feel like there is a systemic problem in our country with policing and you have intelligence and you have the physical capacity, your strong mind and you have a strong body, right?
01:06:25.520The opportunity here is for me to act like a human being, not act like an animal, not do some crazy stuff and have that police officer walk away saying, you know what?
01:06:38.220I was walking up to this car thinking that I was about to run into something with this young black guy.
01:06:43.640And man, what a gentleman, how respectful, had his stuff together, had his act together, we're squared away.
01:07:10.580Well, I'm going to treat this person with respect.
01:07:12.320I'm going to be cautious, but I'm also going to give this person the opportunity to present themselves and present their story and not make an immediate assessment of what they're doing or, you know, where they're going simply based on the color of their skin.
01:07:26.320Because this person may be the sole breadwinner for his five brothers and sisters at home.
01:07:32.200And that's why he's out here at one o'clock in the morning.
01:07:34.260Not that he's driving drunk or has drugs, you know.
01:07:36.980So that's my obligation and the opportunity.
01:07:41.640My opportunity here is to present to him that I'm not going to treat him, based on the color of the skin, the time of day, where we are, any differently than anyone else.
01:07:50.160I'm going to focus on that because I don't know his story.
01:19:27.460Think about how it might apply to your life.
01:19:29.200And ultimately what you can do with the information to make your life better, to make your family members' lives better, your community members, your neighbors better.
01:19:38.620That's the entire goal is how do we give you resources, tools, conversations to improve your capacity as a man and enhance the life of you, of course, and the people you care about.
01:19:49.360So, as I started out with a podcast, we've got an uphill battle.
01:19:55.800We've got an uphill battle when we're talking about reclaiming and restoring what masculinity is and what it means and how it functions in a healthy society.
01:20:19.360So great that we're starting to get some attention, which is good and bad.
01:20:23.720It's kind of a mixed bag, but we need to make sure we have everything in order in order to combat what I think we'll continue to see more of, which is more shadow banning, more flack, that sort of thing.
01:20:36.420But we can push back against it and we should be doing that.
01:20:38.860That is what we should be doing as men.