Order of Man - The Man in the Arena

00:00:00.000 Most of the men listening to this podcast are familiar with Theodore Roosevelt's speech,

00:00:04.120 man in the arena. And most of us know what it's like to some degree to be mocked and

00:00:09.220 criticized and ridiculed for the way that we live our lives and the actions that we take.

00:00:15.220 But very few of us have ever had to fight like my guest today, Eddie Gallagher has,

00:00:19.600 in order to secure our freedoms and our way of life. Accused of war crimes,

00:00:25.440 Eddie Gallagher spent nine months in prison facing a potential life sentence.

00:00:30.000 And against insane odds in the deck, being completely stacked against him,

00:00:34.460 Eddie, along with his wife and brother and the help of thousands of other patriots,

00:00:39.720 successfully secured his freedom and his status as a U.S. Navy SEAL.

00:00:44.440 And today we talk about part of his story.

00:00:47.060 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:52.520 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time.

00:00:56.840 You are not easily deterred or defeated. Rugged. Resilient. Strong.

00:01:02.260 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become.

00:01:06.500 At the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

00:01:11.680 Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Michler.

00:01:14.440 And I am the host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement.

00:01:18.100 I've got a very, very powerful story and guest. I hesitate to say story because, well, my guest today is Eddie Gallagher.

00:01:25.860 This isn't just a story. It's his life. And this was a very, very powerful conversation.

00:01:30.340 I think you guys are going to get a lot of insight from it. And it's my goal.

00:01:33.820 And I know Eddie's as well, but hopefully it'll help you serve and live your lives the way that you have a desire to.

00:01:40.080 So we're going to get into that in just a quick minute. Before we do, I want to mention my friends and show sponsors origin, Maine.

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00:02:36.180 So again, origin, Maine.com use the code order at checkout.

00:02:41.120 All right, guys, as I alluded to earlier, my guest today, uh, some of the, that, that a lot of you are probably familiar with.

00:02:47.680 His name is Eddie Gallagher and he is a retired Navy seal.

00:02:50.560 Uh, he came under national attention and of course, a lot of scrutiny with it, uh, when he was charged with war crimes while conducting operations in Iraq.

00:02:59.260 Uh, he's also the author of his upcoming book, the man in the arena from fighting ISIS to fighting for my freedom.

00:03:05.460 Uh, in the book, he documents his insane experience of being falsely accused of war crimes and how his family and the country fought for his freedom.

00:03:14.240 And the ultimate truth about how, uh, president Trump even helped his cause.

00:03:19.100 There's a lot of misconception and misinformation around that as well.

00:03:22.640 Uh, this guy is extremely humble and down to earth.

00:03:25.060 And as I talk about, uh, with him during the conversation, he seems to be an incredible father and husband to his children and wife.

00:03:32.740 I know you guys are going to really enjoy this one.

00:03:35.660 Also make sure you pick up a pre-order copy of his book at eddiegallagherbook.com.

00:03:40.040 Uh, they've got a special package, a pre-order package when you do, it's at, uh, eddiegallagherbook.com.

00:03:45.740 You guys are going to enjoy this one.

00:03:49.320 Eddie, what's up, man.

00:03:50.260 Thanks for joining me on the podcast.

00:03:51.920 Oh, thanks for having me, brother.

00:03:54.180 Yeah, you bet.

00:03:55.000 I mean, I, I heard about your story.

00:03:57.600 I hate, I told you just a second ago.

00:03:59.520 I hate saying like your story.

00:04:01.620 It's not your story.

00:04:03.260 It's your life, man.

00:04:04.900 And, uh, I was listening to the podcast this weekend, uh, with you and a friend of mine, Andy Stumpf.

00:04:10.320 Yep.

00:04:11.280 It's a great, great guy.

00:04:12.860 It's a great guy.

00:04:13.820 I've known Andy for a couple of years now and he's, he's always been supportive of what

00:04:17.880 we're doing here and he's just a solid guy, but man, I heard you talk about it.

00:04:21.800 And of course I read a portion of the book at this point and I mean, I'm absolutely blown

00:04:26.020 away.

00:04:26.220 It's not your story.

00:04:26.900 It's your life.

00:04:27.440 And, and, and that's the distinction I think we need to make here.

00:04:31.160 Yeah.

00:04:31.520 Um, you know, it's, it's funny.

00:04:33.540 Like the, I did, uh, Andy Stumpf's podcast, uh, pretty much, I mean, right after I retired.

00:04:40.680 So I was like not even a month out.

00:04:43.460 Um, and obviously it was after everything that had happened.

00:04:46.980 And so, um, you know, this year has, it's been good to sort of just like decompress from

00:04:53.680 all that.

00:04:54.120 I took, I took this year to like heal, you know, heal myself and, um, just wrap my mind

00:04:59.460 around everything that happened the past two years.

00:05:01.560 Uh, but I mean, it's been good, um, you know, especially writing, you know, writing the book

00:05:07.060 and getting that on paper.

00:05:08.980 Um, but yeah, it's, uh, it's still, it's still a surreal feeling, uh, just because, you know,

00:05:16.340 I'm like my wife can attest.

00:05:18.500 I'm the last person that would ever want to be known or have my face put anywhere.

00:05:24.080 Um, so it's something that I had to sort of accept this year, just like, Hey, this is,

00:05:29.300 you know, what God put in front of me.

00:05:30.880 Um, and you know, I just come to, come to like accept it and use it for good.

00:05:36.660 So, yeah, that's a good response.

00:05:39.300 Cause I know when I was listening to that podcast and I've heard this before, and both you and

00:05:44.100 Andy being seals, and of course other seals that I've had on the podcast, talk about the

00:05:47.860 idea of the, you know, the quiet professional.

00:05:49.940 So was that a hard thing for you to wrestle with knowing that you wanted to put this story

00:05:54.740 out there and yet you have quite literally been trained over a period of multiple decades

00:06:00.160 to just shut up and do your job?

00:06:02.720 Yeah, it was, that was probably one of the biggest things for me to wrestle with, especially

00:06:06.480 as I was writing the book.

00:06:08.320 Um, you know, I, I never thought I'd be doing something like that.

00:06:12.760 And, uh, you know, while, while I was in, you know, I can honestly say I was, I was pretty

00:06:17.780 verbal about, you know, against writing books or, you know, putting, putting any of our stuff

00:06:23.680 out there.

00:06:24.220 Um, just because that's like you just said, how I'd been raised, uh, to be a quiet professional.

00:06:30.600 I would never tell anybody, you know, if I didn't know somebody, I wouldn't tell them

00:06:34.660 I was a seal.

00:06:35.520 It was just, I just tried to keep it to myself.

00:06:37.380 Um, but yeah, it, you know, it's, it was uncomfortable, but, um, I think you can agree, like if you're

00:06:45.900 doing something uncomfortable and it, it's probably a good thing.

00:06:49.660 Like it's for growth.

00:06:50.940 Um, and that's, uh, what I really got out of it is just putting everything that happened

00:06:56.820 to me and my family on paper, um, getting it out.

00:07:01.060 Um, it really forced me to, uh, dive deep into everything.

00:07:05.760 Um, and it was, it was therapeutic at times, but at times it was rough.

00:07:12.040 Um, you know, like, I'm not gonna lie, like probably halfway through, I was like, dude,

00:07:16.180 I don't want to do this anymore.

00:07:17.560 Um, but thank God I got a strong wife who, you know, just talked to her about it.

00:07:22.800 She put some common sense into me and be like, you know, this is, you're doing this for a

00:07:26.500 reason.

00:07:26.980 This isn't a, and the book itself is not a typical.

00:07:30.240 It's, you know, I, I really don't dwell on my career, you know, stories from deployments.

00:07:37.280 Um, it's more focused on the trial.

00:07:40.440 Uh, what, you know, the deployment that, um, came before the trial, you know, I get to give

00:07:46.600 it the, uh, the story some context, but the big thing that I liked about it is it, I have

00:07:53.500 my wife has chapters in it, uh, Andrea, like what she went through, uh, not just from the

00:07:59.160 trial, but also as a military spouse, what it's like being a spouse, what, and my kids

00:08:02.940 also have chapters in it, just, uh, how they feel.

00:08:05.960 So they're, they're, they're the real heroes of the story to me.

00:08:09.440 Um, that's, you know, what they went through during, during the whole thing and how, how

00:08:15.820 they persevered, how my wife, you know, stood up against pretty much the two biggest forces,

00:08:21.420 uh, which is the U S government and the media.

00:08:24.160 Um, and she won.

00:08:25.980 Um, so to me, I'm glad that I wrote the book to get their story out.

00:08:31.720 Um, and that the world can see just what a strong wife I have.

00:08:35.140 Um, it really is.

00:08:36.760 It's a true blessing.

00:08:38.600 Yeah.

00:08:39.000 That's one of the things that really stood out.

00:08:40.620 And I want to get into some of your story, but one of the things that really stood out

00:08:44.480 to me is how, and I don't know your wife, but how incredible this woman must be to be

00:08:50.820 able to, you know, my wife, I was on deployment in 2005 and 2006, and I don't want to diminish

00:08:55.600 her, take away anything from what she did and what she had to deal with while I was gone.

00:09:00.040 I'm not trying to do that when I say this, but she didn't have to deal with a fraction

00:09:05.960 of a percent of what your wife must've went through as she wrestled with the idea of you

00:09:12.880 potentially being a war criminal and her not knowing to know that's not my husband.

00:09:18.660 And, uh, and, and I'm going to stand up for him to trying to rally people around to try

00:09:25.000 to, to, to, to help you.

00:09:27.260 I just can't imagine the amount of fortitude in this woman.

00:09:30.320 And that's, that's a pretty inspiring thing outside of your experience and what you dealt

00:09:35.400 with personally.

00:09:36.480 Oh yeah, for sure.

00:09:37.980 Um, I mean, what she did is to me, it's beyond amazing.

00:09:42.900 I mean, she, she pretty much dropped everything as soon as they had locked me up, um, for no

00:09:48.140 reason.

00:09:49.320 Um, she, we, this is that the investigation had been going on for almost a year before

00:09:56.280 I was even thrown in prison.

00:09:58.880 Um, but we were keeping it to ourselves because we just, it was so ridiculous.

00:10:03.340 We thought it would blow over.

00:10:05.100 Um, and once they threw me away, she pretty much, you know, raised the red star clusters,

00:10:12.280 shot them up.

00:10:12.780 Um, it's like, this isn't happening.

00:10:13.960 And she dropped everything, um, she was doing.

00:10:17.000 I mean, plus, I mean, she's taking care of three kids while, I mean, she's waking up at,

00:10:22.460 at times at three in the morning to go do news, uh, segments and then come back, take the

00:10:27.540 kids to school, you know, and then still advocate for me in other ways.

00:10:31.700 And then she, she had the help of my, uh, my brother too.

00:10:34.260 My brother was really, um, a big part of that as well.

00:10:37.480 Um, they were a dynamic duo.

00:10:39.980 So yeah, it's, I mean, I, I look at her in awe just, you know, every day just because

00:10:46.420 of what she did, but you know, it's, and it's prior to that, like, cause you know, being

00:10:49.880 a military spouse, it's, uh, it's not an easy occupation.

00:10:54.380 Um, it takes, you know, a strong, strong woman or a man, if you're a spouse, uh, you know,

00:11:01.700 your wife is in the military, but, um, it takes a strong person to sit there and wait, you

00:11:06.940 know, for your significant other to come back from overseas while, and you're pretty

00:11:10.840 much a single parent.

00:11:12.280 So you're taking care of everything.

00:11:15.060 So your significant other can come home and, you know, have a decent home to come home to

00:11:20.340 and just relax and not have to worry about anything else.

00:11:23.480 So, I mean, I knew she was strong before all this happened and this just, it was like icing

00:11:29.740 on the cake.

00:11:31.040 Yeah.

00:11:31.720 Well, and not only that, I mean, again, your situation is obviously different, but I know

00:11:36.200 for my wife, when I came home, you know, she had her way of doing things and it was

00:11:41.440 working.

00:11:42.420 It was working without me getting in the way, messing everything up.

00:11:47.180 And then I come back and I throw a wrench in the entire system and I'm like, here, deal

00:11:50.800 with this.

00:11:51.760 Oh, exactly.

00:11:52.520 She has to completely change her lifestyle to, to accommodate me.

00:11:56.180 You know, that's, that's a, that's a fascinating thing itself.

00:11:59.780 Yeah.

00:12:00.140 I think it's pretty funny.

00:12:01.100 Like this is the longest, obviously I've ever been home, which is almost going on a year

00:12:05.400 now and I'm still just like, I'm just now learning where the dishes go in the cupboards.

00:12:10.940 That's right.

00:12:13.440 No doubt.

00:12:14.500 Wherever she wants them.

00:12:15.960 Yeah.

00:12:16.680 Right.

00:12:17.580 Yeah.

00:12:18.380 So let's, let's pivot gears and shift gears here a little bit.

00:12:21.460 I mean, with, with, with your situation and I think most of the guys listening probably

00:12:25.560 are very familiar or at least somewhat familiar with what, what you've gone through and what

00:12:29.260 you've experienced over the past several years.

00:12:30.900 I just, I got to ask like, why, why do you feel like from what I've experienced, what

00:12:37.760 I've seen, what I've read, what I've heard, it sounds like you were targeted and you, I

00:12:42.860 think you admit to making some mistakes that you would do differently.

00:12:45.840 Like you've said that.

00:12:47.140 Yeah.

00:12:47.500 But it seems like you were, you were targeted as some sort of a scapegoat.

00:12:52.500 Do you feel like that?

00:12:53.480 Or, or how, how would you describe that?

00:12:56.460 Yeah.

00:12:56.820 I, I mean, it's definitely, I mean, there's no other way to put it.

00:13:00.000 I was railroaded to protect the institution of Naval Special Warfare.

00:13:06.440 So there, these four individuals in my platoon came back and started a series of petty, petty

00:13:18.780 rumors that were just pretty much trying to destroy my reputation.

00:13:22.740 We didn't, we didn't get along.

00:13:25.180 There was the first, you know, series of petty allegations had nothing to do with war crimes

00:13:32.320 or murder or anything like that.

00:13:35.580 It was just that I was too aggressive as a leader.

00:13:37.560 I was putting people in dangerous situations and that, that I was a thief, that I stole.

00:13:45.460 Which I think, I think that's kind of natural when you have a bunch of people, you know,

00:13:50.260 you have high achievers, you have red personalities.

00:13:52.280 I think it's natural in any team environment to say, well, yeah, that guy sucks, but that's

00:13:57.320 not where it ended for you.

00:13:58.600 No, and that's, that's, it's, that's, so you, you hit the nail on the coffin, like

00:14:02.800 that, that was just what they, you know, they came back and we've all seen it before, you

00:14:07.720 know, you know, long deployments, especially arduous ones that usually like a little hate

00:14:12.320 train to come back.

00:14:13.320 Usually the leadership is playing.

00:14:15.320 Of course.

00:14:16.120 Like, but you learn, you know, you come back and decompress from deployment and you move

00:14:20.640 on.

00:14:21.140 Um, it's just the way it's, it's always been that these guys, uh, decided to just sort of

00:14:26.680 hold on to it.

00:14:27.760 Um, and when there are petty complaints that they came up with were brushed aside as they

00:14:33.140 were told, like, there's nothing here.

00:14:35.520 That's when they decided to escalate it, uh, to, okay, well then we saw him stab somebody.

00:14:43.880 So the command, they did what they had to do.

00:14:47.240 They can't sit on that.

00:14:48.260 So they were like, well then you need to report this to NCIS.

00:14:52.580 That's where it went off the rails.

00:14:54.220 These guys had a decision right there.

00:14:56.540 They could have like, okay, we're getting called on our bluff and they're telling us

00:15:00.540 to report to NCIS or we should probably, they could have just walked away right then, but

00:15:06.060 they decided to, okay, we'll do this.

00:15:08.340 They called the NCIS.

00:15:09.300 Uh, and the NCIS agent is probably one of the most, that, that got put in charge is probably

00:15:17.040 one of the most corrupt agents I've, you know, ever come across.

00:15:21.120 He formed a prosecution right from the beginning.

00:15:25.260 Um, when he pulled these guys in their first initial interviews, um, and they, the first

00:15:31.680 thing he said to them was, listen, we, this is an open and shut case.

00:15:36.100 He, we already know he's guilty.

00:15:38.580 Just tell us what we need to know.

00:15:41.020 And this is the first person they interviewed the case.

00:15:44.160 They had no evidence.

00:15:45.660 So they gave these guys carte blanche to pretty much say anything.

00:15:48.760 They gave them immunity.

00:15:49.920 So they're, they told them like anything you say, anything you did, nothing will happen

00:15:53.880 to you.

00:15:54.540 Right.

00:15:55.020 Cause one of these guys testified in court, didn't he under immunity and said some incriminating

00:16:00.580 things about himself, but of course said a lot of incriminating things about, about

00:16:04.820 you.

00:16:05.460 Yeah.

00:16:06.100 So yeah, each, each person that went up there and testified against me all had incriminating

00:16:10.080 stuff about themselves, but because they had immunity, not that they knew nothing was

00:16:14.200 going to happen to them.

00:16:15.040 Is that standard?

00:16:15.880 Is that typical?

00:16:16.460 I don't even know.

00:16:17.200 I mean, is that something that's typical?

00:16:18.480 Like we'll grant you immunity if you rat this guy out.

00:16:22.060 Yes, that is pretty much a standard procedure for the UCMJ.

00:16:27.500 Okay.

00:16:28.120 But prosecutors, they will, because what I learned, what we all learned during this is it doesn't,

00:16:35.340 the truth doesn't matter.

00:16:36.940 You know, once it got to that point, the prosecutor, it's all about career making.

00:16:42.320 So the prosecutors wanted to win the case so they could further their career.

00:16:45.620 Same with the NCIS agent.

00:16:48.080 So they'll do whatever it takes for them to win.

00:16:51.040 They're not looking for the truth.

00:16:53.300 I mean, before the trial started, I knew, well, at least one or two prosecutors knew that

00:17:00.120 these guys are lying.

00:17:01.600 Like, and, but they, they didn't stop.

00:17:03.740 You know, they were just like, well, it doesn't matter at this point.

00:17:06.260 It's too, it became too political.

00:17:08.360 It became too big for them to give up.

00:17:11.820 So, yeah.

00:17:14.060 Because it would have undermined them if they would have said, hey, we're going to drop

00:17:17.160 these charges.

00:17:17.780 There's nothing here.

00:17:18.740 Then it would have undermined their own efforts and their own quote unquote work up to that

00:17:23.920 point.

00:17:24.220 Is that what you're saying?

00:17:25.300 Yeah.

00:17:26.040 Yeah.

00:17:26.300 They wasted so many, so much of the taxpayers' dollars to that point.

00:17:31.460 There's no stop.

00:17:33.560 And so they had sort of, these guys that initially accused me, they entrapped them.

00:17:39.340 So two of those guys that they interviewed who were originally like, oh yeah, we don't

00:17:47.100 like him.

00:17:47.600 He did this.

00:17:48.240 They came and visited me when I was locked up in prison and told me straight to my face

00:17:52.420 that, you know, this got too far.

00:17:54.700 This was all a lie.

00:17:56.040 Really?

00:17:56.920 Oh yeah.

00:17:57.440 And they're like, we're trapped.

00:17:59.000 Like they're telling us now that if we change our story, we'll go to prison.

00:18:03.740 So there was, you know, they were sort of stuck.

00:18:07.940 But I can say like those two guys definitely didn't help the prosecution out any further.

00:18:14.040 But, you know, the four other guys got up there and told their lies.

00:18:19.340 I mean, at that, by the time the trial had started, these guys had told so many lies about, I mean,

00:18:25.840 none of their stories coincided.

00:18:27.920 It was pretty, it was pretty embarrassing actually to watch them go up there and just

00:18:32.680 spelt, spelt this crazy stuff off.

00:18:35.240 I mean, the jury saw right through it.

00:18:38.000 You know, even the media, they were making little comments because they were all in the

00:18:41.660 back of the court.

00:18:42.480 And he was just like, I can't believe this is even a, it came to trial.

00:18:47.360 There's nothing here.

00:18:49.200 Right.

00:18:50.260 Yeah.

00:18:50.720 And that, that is, that is one thing that, that I saw, or at least, you know, read up

00:18:56.120 on is that I think initially, and I don't know the term, so help correct me if I'm wrong

00:19:01.600 here, but the, the initial judge basically said, no, there's, there's nothing here.

00:19:08.740 Like we're not taking this to court.

00:19:10.520 And then I don't know if it was your command or who it was that said, oh no, sorry, that's

00:19:15.520 not how this works.

00:19:16.220 This is actually going to court, which I didn't know they had any sort of authority to be

00:19:20.800 able to do something like that.

00:19:22.100 That sounds asinine to me.

00:19:24.000 Oh, it's crazy.

00:19:25.040 And that's, I didn't know either.

00:19:26.040 So I had no idea how any of this system worked, obviously.

00:19:29.680 Of course.

00:19:30.040 I was thrown into it and I got a, I drank from a fire hose along the way and it's crazy.

00:19:37.180 Yeah.

00:19:37.480 So the article 32 hearing, which is like the civilian of a grand jury, it's a civilian equivalent

00:19:45.040 of a grand jury where they decide whether or not this case should proceed.

00:19:48.620 Um, yeah, that, that initial judge said there's not enough here to move forward, like, especially

00:19:56.500 on two of the murder charges.

00:19:57.600 And, uh, the command, my command, uh, commander Rosenblum and Admiral Green signed off, like,

00:20:05.280 nope, send it forward and charge him with everything.

00:20:09.560 Um, which, you know, was a shocker to me.

00:20:12.780 I think that's, once they did that, that's when I sort of came to realization that, you

00:20:18.260 know, we're against everybody now.

00:20:20.500 Like, not just the, you know, the government and the, uh, Navy as far as legal terms, but

00:20:29.340 now, now my command is fully on board trying to throw me away, which is probably one of

00:20:34.220 the most disheartening things, um, that could have happened, um, that, that crushed me, uh,

00:20:39.500 pretty good, but it's the, I think what people need to realize is, um, it's not the SEAL community

00:20:46.840 itself that was against me.

00:20:49.080 It's the head, like we call it the head shed or the leadership.

00:20:52.080 So it's the, you know, high ranking officers who make these decisions.

00:20:56.660 Um, and, uh, they make decisions based off political, of the political climate at the

00:21:03.020 time.

00:21:03.840 And I think they decided that, Hey, you know, this doesn't look good for us, even, even

00:21:10.560 this story.

00:21:11.380 So we're just going to go all in and hang this guy out, put him away for life.

00:21:15.780 And that way we can say that we, you know, take care of our problem children.

00:21:19.700 Um, when in reality, if they would have done any kind of investigative research or just

00:21:23.560 looked into it, they, I think they would have shut it off.

00:21:27.480 It, it's just interesting because I think about, I'm trying to think about from, from

00:21:32.740 your leadership's perspective.

00:21:33.840 All right.

00:21:34.160 So you can go down one of two routes.

00:21:35.840 You can tell the truth and do an investigation and do it correctly, or you can do it incorrectly,

00:21:39.800 which it sounds like from, from your perspective, that's, that's what it is.

00:21:44.720 And neither way is, is, is gonna, is gonna make you look good necessarily, but there's only

00:21:50.720 one right way to do it.

00:21:51.860 Right?

00:21:52.100 Like, like if you go down the route of like, let's tell the truth, then I can see why there

00:21:56.280 would be some, some vulnerabilities there that they would be exposing.

00:22:00.380 Yeah.

00:22:01.300 Right.

00:22:01.680 So I get that.

00:22:02.380 I understand that not to the degree that we're going to ruin somebody's life over, but I do

00:22:07.460 understand that.

00:22:08.280 But then you go down the bad route, the, the incorrect route, the, the unethical route

00:22:13.240 to say the least, and that's going to make you look just as bad, if not worse.

00:22:18.940 Do you, do you have any sort of continual fear in your life, even after retiring from

00:22:25.740 the military of any sort of retribution or fear for the safety of your family, anything

00:22:30.480 like that?

00:22:32.040 Um, you know, when, after I had retired, um, the only thing that was really, um, happening

00:22:38.440 that was given us, you know, cause to be worried is the New York times.

00:22:45.420 Um, Dave Phillips, who works for New York times.

00:22:48.520 He kept writing articles about me.

00:22:50.680 So he was writing articles all the way through the trial and smearing me.

00:22:54.040 Um, you know, he plastered me as a psychopath and just really, I mean, did a number on me.

00:23:00.760 Um, and then after the trial, he was writing articles that I had gotten away with it.

00:23:05.200 And, um, you know, the justice system messed up and I should be locked up.

00:23:11.140 Um, every time he would write an article, we would get a flurry of death threats, uh, you

00:23:16.660 know, through social media or, you know, my, and then when my kids or my daughter who's

00:23:21.680 in high school has her own, you know, Instagram, um, she started getting threats, people started

00:23:26.260 hunting her down.

00:23:27.480 So we did have to, you know, we called the cops around here and we're just like, Hey,

00:23:31.520 you know, you just keep an eye out.

00:23:33.760 Um, but other than that, I mean, that has, that's died down.

00:23:37.600 I think it's one of the pros of, uh, COVID-19 and my, my story just sort of like got, you

00:23:43.640 know, cast aside, which we were like, thank God.

00:23:45.520 Um, yeah, for sure.

00:23:46.980 Yeah.

00:23:47.580 Uh, well, people are, people are fickle too, right?

00:23:50.700 They'll, they'll look, and I say this all with all the respect that you deserve, they're

00:23:55.060 going to forget about you very, very quickly and they're going to find something else to

00:23:58.240 be upset about or be offended about or lash themselves and their teeth into.

00:24:01.760 And so you'll be an afterthought before too long.

00:24:04.280 Again, I say that with as much respect I have as possible.

00:24:06.760 Yeah, no, that, I mean, that's the truth.

00:24:09.120 And that's, you know, I realized that I, it's the way of the world, you know, what's the next

00:24:13.320 shiny object, uh, to look at.

00:24:15.840 So, you know, I'm fine with that.

00:24:18.060 I'm like, you know, once this dies down, I'm, I'm getting, like, I don't need to be, you

00:24:22.260 know, out here all over the place.

00:24:24.660 Um, but, uh, yeah, I'm not worried about any retribution or anything like that.

00:24:31.200 And I, I always have the same stance I've had before this, which is like, all right, if

00:24:37.240 you want some, come and get it.

00:24:38.460 Like, you know, we're not, we're not scared.

00:24:40.720 You know, I'm not looking for a fight.

00:24:42.080 I'm not, I just want to live peacefully.

00:24:43.320 But if you're going to, I think you're coming to harm or threaten my family in any way, like

00:24:48.400 I'm going to stand up for myself and my family.

00:24:51.980 How has this affected and changed the way that you lead your family?

00:24:55.440 Are you, I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here, trying to make them more situationally

00:24:59.660 aware, is there certain training that even you're taking your wife or your children through

00:25:03.460 or the things that you're trying to explain to them that they need to be more vigilant?

00:25:08.000 I don't know.

00:25:08.460 Has this affected the way that you're leading your family?

00:25:11.380 Um, you know, my kids are, they're comfortable.

00:25:14.300 My kids and wife are all comfortable around guns.

00:25:16.300 They, you know, each of them know how to, how to shoot.

00:25:18.880 They know where the guns are in the house in case something happens.

00:25:22.560 But other than that, like, I don't, I'm not going to prep them.

00:25:29.000 Like, people are like, oh, you should be vigilant and, like, you're a target.

00:25:31.580 Because I don't want my kids to live like that in, you know, fear.

00:25:35.220 So we don't really, like, push anything too hard on them just, you know, other than just

00:25:41.300 self-defense and how to handle a gun.

00:25:46.060 Other than that, my kid, I mean, my family's pretty vigilant regardless.

00:25:50.240 I mean, my wife and daughter are a lot more situation aware than me and my son.

00:25:55.220 So, look, man, I've got, so I've got three boys and I've got a little girl and, you know,

00:26:01.320 I, I train all of them to the degree that I can, firearms, situationally aware, just

00:26:05.520 even when we go to Walmart, I'm like, hey, look around.

00:26:07.780 Like, what do you see?

00:26:08.840 Who do you see?

00:26:09.740 What are you, what are you looking at?

00:26:11.720 But I'll tell you, it's, it's, it's certainly enhanced with my wife and my daughter.

00:26:16.000 Like I am hyper vigilant.

00:26:17.460 Oh yeah.

00:26:17.920 Those two over my boys for sure.

00:26:20.380 Oh yeah.

00:26:20.940 That's, I mean, that's just human nature right there.

00:26:23.340 I mean, yeah, like I, like I said, I got a daughter in high school.

00:26:26.740 I'm definitely, uh, I have to learn a fine balance of, uh, being overprotective, but then

00:26:31.800 I guess being understanding of, you know, when she goes out with, you know, she has a boyfriend

00:26:36.840 or she wants to hang out.

00:26:39.240 I'm definitely more, uh, amped up than I would be with my son who's going to be going out.

00:26:43.600 Like, you know, where are you going, you know, making sure I know where she is at all times.

00:26:48.760 Just, it's just that, that human nature, you know, especially as a father, you're, you

00:26:53.400 want, you don't want anything to happen to him.

00:26:55.060 Um, right.

00:26:56.360 But there's also the thing where it's like, well, she's going on 17 and you're going to

00:27:02.620 have to let her go.

00:27:03.620 And, you know, eventually there's that trust.

00:27:05.780 So, yeah, I'm, I'm grateful that I'm not, uh, I'm not quite there.

00:27:11.040 My, my, I've, I've got about 12, 12 years or so, if all goes according to plan with my

00:27:16.920 daughter, you know, before, uh, before I really have to worry about getting to that stage.

00:27:21.940 But man, that's a, I just, I can't imagine what was the, um, as I was thinking about what

00:27:29.040 I wanted to talk with you about, I'm like, all right, let me, let me put myself in this

00:27:31.760 guy's shoes.

00:27:32.320 All right.

00:27:32.640 You're, you're, you're sitting in, in the brig, right.

00:27:34.800 You're sitting in prison and your hands are tied.

00:27:39.100 You can't do anything.

00:27:40.260 You're hoping your wife's going to bat.

00:27:41.560 She is.

00:27:42.300 You're hoping other people are going to bat.

00:27:43.920 Some of them are, some of them aren't.

00:27:45.880 What is the, what is the hardest part about this?

00:27:50.400 Was it nine, nine months that you were locked away for before you ended up on your trial

00:27:55.020 and then being charged on the one, one count of like, I don't, I don't know the count exactly,

00:27:59.440 but I think they got you on that picture, right?

00:28:01.900 Yeah.

00:28:02.220 That's the conduct I'm becoming.

00:28:03.980 Okay.

00:28:04.800 Right.

00:28:05.360 So I'm basically a misdemeanor is, is, is, is what that is.

00:28:08.460 Right.

00:28:08.680 Okay.

00:28:09.140 All right.

00:28:09.480 So what's the hardest part during that time right there?

00:28:16.900 That's a, uh, that's a good question.

00:28:18.320 So I think the hardest while I was locked up is losing that sense of control.

00:28:24.180 Like you have no control over anything that's going on.

00:28:27.160 And I think as men are, you know, especially alpha males, we, we want to control the situation,

00:28:33.940 especially when it's something that we're involved in happening to myself and my family.

00:28:38.620 Um, just coming to the realization, I think I was about two and a half months in.

00:28:43.940 Um, and, um, I had a pretty, pretty important phone call on the, with my wife on the phone.

00:28:51.400 Um, she, she sort of like laid it out for me.

00:28:54.380 Um, she said, you know, we trusted you, you know, all these deployments that you went on,

00:29:01.000 we stood behind you every time you went, because you were telling us it was a righteous thing.

00:29:05.500 You were doing a righteous thing.

00:29:06.700 So we waited for you, you know, and, um, she told me, she's like, now I need you to trust me.

00:29:13.540 And I'm telling you that no one is coming to get you, your command is not coming to get you.

00:29:19.380 There's no one out there that's, you know, going to help you except for us.

00:29:24.380 So you need to, cause I was, you know, definitely complaining to her over the phone.

00:29:30.180 Like, what can we do?

00:29:31.180 You know, trying to come up with these ideas that just kept getting crushed at the time.

00:29:35.500 So she's like, you need to just realize that we're going to take care of it.

00:29:40.300 And you just need to sit in there.

00:29:41.860 Um, so I went to my cell and I'm a believer and, you know, I got down on my hands and knees

00:29:48.980 and I talked to God and I was like, you know what, I'm giving it all to you.

00:29:54.260 Like, this is everything that's happening right now.

00:29:56.660 You can take it from my hands.

00:29:58.220 Um, I trust you, God, and whatever happens, happens.

00:30:01.340 Like if I go away for life, I go away for life.

00:30:04.300 But if I don't, I don't, um, I can tell you what, man, that, that right there, I walked

00:30:09.100 out of my cell after talking to him and I felt like the labor was off my shoulders.

00:30:13.660 Um, it was, uh, it was a pretty, pretty crazy moment.

00:30:17.940 And I got closer to God while I was in there.

00:30:23.380 Um, just because I think it took every, it took everything being taken away from me to

00:30:29.620 just, uh, succumb and be like, okay, you know, I'm not in control.

00:30:34.340 You're in control, you know, Jesus take the wheel.

00:30:36.740 Um, so that was probably one of the most difficult things.

00:30:41.380 And then obviously, you know, it's not all right after that.

00:30:45.580 You still have, you know, dark thoughts because you're sitting, sitting there with your own

00:30:49.780 thoughts for a while.

00:30:50.580 So, I mean, the biggest thought that scared me was, um, if I did go away for life, like what

00:30:59.580 is going to, what is my wife and kids going to do?

00:31:03.180 And cause to me, I'm like, well, I'm no longer there.

00:31:07.620 So, I mean, start thinking, you know, thinking of ways to tell my wife to remarry, uh, to just

00:31:14.460 forget about me.

00:31:15.540 Uh, cause you know, I didn't want my wife and kids come to visit me in prison for the rest

00:31:20.780 of their lives.

00:31:21.340 Uh, but I mean, those are all just crazy thoughts that go on in your head.

00:31:24.780 Oh yeah.

00:31:25.300 I can't imagine what it's like.

00:31:26.740 You would never think you would have to, you know, have to think those things.

00:31:30.460 Um, so that, those, I mean, that's the most difficult part about being in there, um, just

00:31:37.060 maintaining your sanity, you know?

00:31:38.740 And while I was in there, they, I was getting mistreated, um, on purpose.

00:31:44.180 Um, the prosecution, NCIS was coming in and telling the guards to try and make me snap, uh,

00:31:51.460 do stuff to me so they could, you know, point the finger and be like, oh, see, he is psycho.

00:31:55.420 So they were instigating, they were poking at you.

00:31:58.660 Is that what they're causing you to like, try to fight or be insubordinate or something

00:32:02.020 like that?

00:32:03.020 Yeah.

00:32:04.020 I mean, they would come in, strip me naked, uh, like just sit there and say stuff to me.

00:32:09.020 I'd come tear my room apart.

00:32:11.140 Uh, I would get randomly just searched.

00:32:14.140 Uh, and I think all the other prisoners were just like, what?

00:32:17.380 Like they'd never seen anything like it, uh, threatened to be thrown in solitary for not

00:32:23.740 sitting up straight in my chair.

00:32:24.740 I mean, it was just ridiculous stuff.

00:32:26.740 Uh, but, uh, luckily I knew, um, what they were doing from the guards that sort of filled

00:32:33.060 me in.

00:32:34.780 So I knew it was a game and I knew just to keep, uh, all I would just do is look at them

00:32:39.780 and be like, okay, this makes you feel better.

00:32:41.980 Um, and it, you know, it worked out.

00:32:45.140 It just, uh, not, you know, not giving in to what they were doing.

00:32:49.540 Um, your, uh, your training probably helped with that too.

00:32:53.140 Cause I mean, I remember, you know, basic training for me, obviously I'm not as trained

00:32:57.100 regarding military as you are, but even in just basic training, I had some guys tell me

00:33:01.380 it's all just a game.

00:33:02.560 It's all just a game.

00:33:04.000 Just roll the punches.

00:33:05.120 If they say something, yes, drill sergeant, take it, accept it.

00:33:08.340 It's all just a game.

00:33:09.780 There's nothing else behind it.

00:33:11.740 And I, and I feel like that was a big, uh, safety net for me, but I also knew I'd be going

00:33:16.660 home in two months.

00:33:17.700 Right.

00:33:18.060 So it's different considering that I might be here forever.

00:33:23.640 So what did you do specifically?

00:33:26.460 I know you prayed, you got connected with God or the other things that you did to keep

00:33:31.560 yourself from, you know, getting into your mind and going down that rabbit hole of darkness

00:33:36.120 that I'm sure was very, very tempting majority of the time you were there.

00:33:40.420 I maintained a pretty strict workout routine.

00:33:43.400 Um, you know, they, they forbid me from working out.

00:33:46.860 Um, so I, even in your, even in your cell, is it a cell?

00:33:51.180 I'm sure you're just a cell just by yourself.

00:33:53.100 Is that what you're, is that how it is?

00:33:55.000 Yeah.

00:33:55.420 So you're in a cell by yourself.

00:33:56.780 Um, and I would do workouts in there, but they, you know, they caught me doing them.

00:34:01.780 I get counseled or whatever, but I, I didn't really care at that point.

00:34:05.240 Uh, so yeah, I would, I keep a pretty strict routine of like doing some calisthenics for

00:34:10.580 an hour, you know, and then also doing it again in the afternoon.

00:34:15.300 Uh, the, I made a couple of friends in there.

00:34:18.900 Um, I was really wary about talking to people.

00:34:21.320 Um, there was a couple of guys, there was one other seal in there with me, um, that was

00:34:26.060 going through some hard times, you know, he was not, not doing as well.

00:34:30.540 Uh, so I tried to help him out and just, you know, tried to be a leader to people, to

00:34:35.900 guys in there.

00:34:36.660 I mean, I was one of the older guys, so there's a lot of 18, 19 year old kids locked up, um,

00:34:42.400 in there for, uh, popping on a piss test, failing, failing the piss test for marijuana,

00:34:47.520 but because they're in the military, just little stupid things because yeah, because

00:34:52.040 they're in the military, they got five years and so being in there with those kids and

00:34:57.260 just trying to keep them positive, uh, and just trying to, you know, get their mental

00:35:01.480 state right.

00:35:02.540 Um, I, I try to take on that role a little bit, uh, just and help me out too.

00:35:08.400 You know, you feel good when you help somebody else.

00:35:10.480 So yeah, I mean, there's a purpose behind that, right?

00:35:12.760 Yeah.

00:35:13.180 Yeah.

00:35:13.540 And that's what you do.

00:35:14.360 You know, you sort of adapt to your environment.

00:35:16.180 I, I definitely didn't have like a feel sorry for myself attitude.

00:35:19.140 Um, I was just like, okay, this is where I'm at.

00:35:22.360 I'm going to adapt to this, uh, and do some things to survive and, you know, um, and also

00:35:28.820 give me a positive mind state and that's helping other people out or especially these younger

00:35:35.020 kids, um, help me out.

00:35:38.380 Right.

00:35:39.360 Why did you, uh, why'd you decide to call your book man in the arena?

00:35:42.560 I'm actually looking at it right here.

00:35:44.080 I've got an excerpt from Theodore Roosevelt's speech titled man in the arena.

00:35:48.580 And so I'm really curious why you decided to title the book that, that itself.

00:35:53.200 Um, so I mean that, that saying or that quote, I've, you know, that's, I've been reading that

00:35:59.960 ever since I joined, you know, Terry and, um, I already had, I had it on a lot of my stuff,

00:36:06.220 like a lot of plaques.

00:36:07.160 Uh, but at my retirement ceremony, I had one of my best friends, um, speak and he's,

00:36:13.000 you know, he's still active duty and he, uh, actually gave me the idea because he was like,

00:36:19.520 you know, when I think of everything that you went through, um, and just knowing you through

00:36:23.640 your whole career, that, that quote, it reminds me of you, like, that's exactly what you did.

00:36:29.340 Um, kept getting back up and, uh, you know, and it's not just from what happened to me

00:36:35.440 during, during trial, but that's my whole career has been, I've always, I've never been

00:36:41.020 like a first time, every time guy, like, I'm pretty much like, I'll go do something, fail

00:36:45.100 at it.

00:36:45.460 And then I become extremely good at it, uh, afterwards.

00:36:48.520 And so, and I, you know, I learned that that's just how I operated from early on.

00:36:53.980 Um, so I, you know, I never got down, every time I failed at something, I just took it as

00:36:59.120 like, okay, I can get better at this and I'll come back stronger, which is, you know, part

00:37:04.580 of the quotes, you know, getting back up every time you get knocked down.

00:37:09.160 Um, and then the big thing is, you know, it's not the critic who counts.

00:37:13.040 It's, that's, that's what hits me hard because there's a lot of people still, you know,

00:37:18.240 criticize, criticize me, uh, for, you know, what went on, but they really, they don't

00:37:24.020 know me as a person.

00:37:25.660 Um, so that's why I decided to, you know, name the book that, uh, I think it, I think

00:37:32.760 it fits well.

00:37:33.520 And then it also describing my wife is also the man in the arena, everything that she

00:37:38.340 did.

00:37:38.740 So it fits.

00:37:41.360 All right, man, let me hit the, uh, the pause button really quick.

00:37:43.580 I know I've got you on the edge of your seat right now.

00:37:45.180 Uh, I want to talk with you about a little bit more about being in the arena today.

00:37:50.320 Uh, and I also want to share with you one often overlooked component of being in the

00:37:54.500 arena and that's battle brothers.

00:37:56.680 Yeah, sure.

00:37:57.320 You can do life alone and hope it all plays out for you.

00:38:00.640 And maybe it will to a degree.

00:38:02.400 Uh, but I can assure you that from personal experience, having a brother who has your back,

00:38:07.060 uh, and will hold you accountable to maximizing your potential is a very, very powerful factor

00:38:12.260 in your life.

00:38:13.160 Uh, and that's exactly what you're going to find inside of the iron council.

00:38:16.540 Uh, you're going to have the opportunity to band with battle brothers, uh, who will help

00:38:20.880 ensure that you stay the course and achieve all that you set out to achieve in 2021.

00:38:25.840 So if you want to learn more about this battle brother concept and all that the iron council

00:38:30.500 has to offer, it's a perfect time to do it.

00:38:32.440 As we come into the new year, then head to order a man.com slash iron council, order a man.com

00:38:38.260 slash iron council, uh, you can do that after the podcast and after the show for now, let's

00:38:43.400 get back to it with Eddie.

00:38:45.580 Yeah, it makes sense.

00:38:46.580 I like that.

00:38:47.260 You're talking about the critic because I think it's very easy to jump to conclusions.

00:38:52.180 And I think in a lot of ways in modern society, we're rewarded and encouraged to have an opinion

00:38:59.940 with very little information, right?

00:39:02.060 So we get these and look, I'm guilty of it too.

00:39:04.740 I'm not absolving myself of any guilt on this, but you know, I jump on Instagram and I, you

00:39:09.080 know, put up some quote and it's very generalized and it's broad sweeping and it's black and

00:39:13.680 white.

00:39:14.020 I'm like, yeah, obviously there's nuance here, you know, but that's not what Instagram is

00:39:17.600 going to reward you for.

00:39:19.360 Yeah.

00:39:20.060 And it's the same thing with having these types of conversations, which I'm learning is,

00:39:23.860 you know, you can, you can join Fox news and be on there for, you know, 60 or 90 seconds

00:39:29.340 and try to make your case.

00:39:30.940 But like, what is it that you can possibly say in a matter of 60 or 90 seconds?

00:39:35.280 And that's why I think conversations like this, where we have an hour or longer to sit

00:39:38.880 down are so valuable, but it's hard because people just are not conditioned to pick up

00:39:44.860 on the nuance and actually listen for what's going on.

00:39:47.620 And they jump to conclusions so quickly.

00:39:49.300 Again, myself included.

00:39:51.080 Oh yeah, for sure.

00:39:52.040 I'm, you know, and I'm guilty of that as well.

00:39:54.280 I definitely was guilty of that before all this happened.

00:39:57.640 But I can tell you like going through, going through all that now, like I look at everything

00:40:03.200 through a totally different lens.

00:40:05.800 You know, I see an article or whatever, you know, the clickbait material everybody puts

00:40:11.200 out.

00:40:11.720 It's, I'm like, that's, I don't believe anything I read anymore.

00:40:16.000 I have to dig into it and probably read like three or four articles to like really get some

00:40:21.360 kind of facts, but I just don't think people these days have the attention span.

00:40:27.240 You know, everything is like now, now, now, you know, we're on our phones all day.

00:40:31.600 Everything's fed to us instantaneously.

00:40:34.120 So I think it's hard for people to sit down and like actually delve into whatever, you know,

00:40:39.760 they're looking at and find, find some facts out of it.

00:40:42.540 They'll just jump, like you said, they'll jump to a conclusion and then just start giving

00:40:46.260 their own critiques on it or like what they think and their thoughts, which their thoughts

00:40:51.120 have the time they're baseless because they don't even know the facts.

00:40:54.220 Of course.

00:40:54.920 Well, and then it, and then it gets worse because we, we form our, our conclusion on faulty

00:41:00.460 or flawed or in, in, uh, incomplete information.

00:41:04.740 And then we get assigned a team, right?

00:41:07.360 So now, now you're on that team because you think that one certain way.

00:41:11.620 And, and I've, I've made, I'm conservative, you know, I know you are too, just because I've

00:41:16.440 seen your posts and things like that.

00:41:17.600 Uh, most of the guys listening know that.

00:41:20.080 And so I'll say something that doesn't align, for example, with the conservative, you know,

00:41:24.620 the conservative talking points and people, they'll lose their minds because I said something

00:41:29.160 that went counter to what the team is supposed to believe and say and think and regurgitate.

00:41:36.300 Oh, I know it's nuts.

00:41:37.580 It's like, you can't be your own person anymore.

00:41:40.620 Like you have to belong to a side.

00:41:42.460 And I mean, that's, I'm, I'm the same way where, yeah, I'm conservative, but I don't

00:41:47.960 believe like all the extreme right wing ideas, you know, like, you know, if I listen to somebody

00:41:54.500 that's just completely extreme right wing, I'm like, I just tune them out.

00:41:57.920 It's the same as I do with an extreme left wing person.

00:42:01.080 I'm like, all right, you guys are like out of your minds, you know?

00:42:05.420 So, um, you know, I just, like you said, it's, um, I was going with it, but, um, it's hard

00:42:16.420 to be like a free thinker nowadays, I think, or, you know, or just look down upon.

00:42:20.880 And I think this, a big thing with this, uh, especially today's society is we've become

00:42:26.940 so fake as a country that the truth offends people.

00:42:31.440 Yeah, for sure.

00:42:32.680 So, I mean, yeah, as soon as you're speaking any kind of truth, you know, on any subject,

00:42:38.040 if somebody doesn't like it, they're going to cancel you out somewhere.

00:42:41.620 Try to.

00:42:42.680 That's true, man.

00:42:43.800 I've, I've made posts of something is what I thought was, was seemingly insignificant as

00:42:48.660 saying that a man is a biological male.

00:42:53.160 And, uh, you know, it's like, how come you're transphobic?

00:42:58.800 I'm like, I didn't actually say anything about that.

00:43:00.880 I just said a man is a biological male like that.

00:43:03.660 There's nothing else to jump to the conclusion on.

00:43:05.720 Or so I thought, but people listen to that and they interpret it through their own lens

00:43:10.040 and their own, you know, their own baggage.

00:43:12.960 Uh, and, and, and everything's taken out of context, man.

00:43:15.600 It's very, very frustrating for sure.

00:43:17.200 Exactly.

00:43:17.620 And you said, you said it's out of their own baggage.

00:43:19.660 Like every, you know, I read comments like that or negative, it's all you got to think

00:43:24.260 of it.

00:43:24.580 That's their problem.

00:43:25.820 Like you don't, something you said, I mean, you didn't say anything offensive.

00:43:30.220 It's whatever they got going on in their life.

00:43:32.360 They're just trying to portray it, you know, put it on you.

00:43:34.980 So.

00:43:35.860 Yeah.

00:43:36.260 I feel, I feel sorry for those people that decided to get on there and it's like, all

00:43:40.480 right, man, I don't, and I don't respond to them either.

00:43:43.780 That's good.

00:43:44.400 Cause with the amount of, of, of hate that I get, I only imagine it's, you know, 10,

00:43:50.100 hundred times fold for you.

00:43:51.700 Do you get, do you get acknowledged and recognized on the street, both positively and negatively?

00:43:56.600 Uh, so I've never been recognized negatively.

00:43:59.580 Not one person has said anything negative to my face.

00:44:02.560 Um, you know, that's all been through that's that elevator test that, uh, Andy was talking

00:44:08.060 about, right?

00:44:08.820 Yeah.

00:44:09.720 Yeah.

00:44:10.540 Um, you know, and like I said, you know, I see the negative comments and I learned real

00:44:15.980 quick, just not to respond to Andy.

00:44:19.100 It's, that's exactly what they want you to do.

00:44:21.640 They want you to get on there and either try and plead your case or like, Hey, and then

00:44:25.420 they got you.

00:44:26.840 And I'm like, Oh, cause they just spend all day on there.

00:44:29.260 And, uh, you know, now you're in their world.

00:44:31.980 So you're like, it's better not to respond.

00:44:34.640 Um, and then I legitimately had a guy one time tell me that he gets, he was, he engaged

00:44:40.720 with me negatively.

00:44:41.340 Right.

00:44:41.680 And I, and I got sucked into it cause he was very good at it.

00:44:43.900 They're very good at it to their credit.

00:44:46.240 And he legitimately told me he just gets paid to do this online all day.

00:44:49.700 So it doesn't matter to him.

00:44:50.520 He'll stay in here all day.

00:44:51.340 I'm like, what in the world is happening?

00:44:54.400 Like I said, yeah, you're in his, his world now.

00:44:56.600 He's like, I got you.

00:44:58.960 Uh, but I've had people, people come up to me, um, every once in a while, like, uh, shortly

00:45:04.620 after the trial and everything, it was a lot, a lot busier.

00:45:07.160 I get recognized a lot in airports and places I went, it was all, you know, people come up

00:45:11.860 shaking my hands and they were supporting me.

00:45:13.700 So it was all positive.

00:45:14.860 I was grateful for all that.

00:45:16.360 Um, but it's sort of, you know, it's died off and especially now traveling around with

00:45:20.140 a mask on, they're disguised.

00:45:22.860 So it's pretty, yeah, that's a blessing in disguise.

00:45:25.120 I bet for you.

00:45:26.080 Yeah.

00:45:26.900 How do you, uh, so I know you've got a daughter, you said in high school, I mean, I don't want

00:45:30.760 to get personal here necessarily, but, uh, with, do you have two boys that are younger

00:45:35.160 than your daughter?

00:45:36.240 Uh, no, I have a, uh, 20 year old son.

00:45:38.640 He's in college.

00:45:39.840 Oh, okay.

00:45:40.620 Yeah.

00:45:40.820 16 year old daughter.

00:45:41.840 And then I'm like, okay, gotcha.

00:45:43.880 How do you explain this to your children?

00:45:47.220 Cause I'm sure, you know, it seems like you're pretty grounded.

00:45:50.060 You, you obviously spent a lot of time, like really trying to fortify yourself against going

00:45:56.260 down these dark paths and thinking about all this stuff.

00:45:59.160 How did you, and how do you continue to explain this to your children who probably have some

00:46:03.600 sort of, I don't know, resentment, animosity, um, frustrations about, you know, losing their

00:46:10.880 dad for almost a year.

00:46:12.060 Um, it's, it's an ongoing process.

00:46:18.540 Uh, you know, I don't have that down, um, completely yet.

00:46:22.680 Um, like I said, I took this year to really like focus on, uh, myself and heal myself.

00:46:28.040 Um, so I can better articulate to my kids, you know, exactly what happened and just, um,

00:46:34.720 you know, talk to them about it.

00:46:36.460 And the big thing for me was releasing, getting rid of all the anger and frustration that I

00:46:41.140 had so that I could have a conversation with my kids about what happened without getting

00:46:45.440 angry about it.

00:46:47.060 Um, my kids, you know, it did, it did a number on them.

00:46:51.080 Um, they definitely, they were confused, uh, frustrated, uh, especially my older son who

00:46:58.380 was in college at the time.

00:46:59.680 Um, he was going to UC Santa Cruz and, um, it's a predominantly left lane thought college.

00:47:08.120 So he was hearing a lot of, I mean, the kids there didn't know he was my son.

00:47:12.460 I told him to keep it that way, but he would hear the comments, you know, that I should

00:47:18.660 be shot or hung or whatever.

00:47:20.880 And I just told him, I was like, listen, just keep, you know, keep your mouth shut.

00:47:24.060 Don't, don't engage.

00:47:25.620 He's my kids are strong kids.

00:47:28.020 Um, I think because they came up through in the steel community, um, you know, they've

00:47:34.500 had actual real tragedies that I had to deal with, you know, my close, close teammates

00:47:39.740 who I've lost, uh, who are like uncles to them, you know, they, they've seen them put

00:47:45.520 on the ground, uh, and they, they don't, we've never hit anything from my kids as far as what

00:47:50.940 we do as what I did as a seal or what the consequences can be.

00:47:56.460 So I think that really, uh, pardoned them a little bit for all this.

00:48:01.740 And, you know, they, they maintain their strong kids.

00:48:05.020 They maintain through it.

00:48:06.260 Um, and I think now we just try to stay positive afterwards.

00:48:10.340 Like I'm out of the military, I'm home.

00:48:13.140 Um, you know, I haven't been home for 20 years, uh, for a consistent amount of time.

00:48:18.160 So we're really just trying to take this time to be together.

00:48:21.180 And I'm trying to sort of learn how to be a father, full-time father home, but it's,

00:48:27.560 it's been good.

00:48:28.340 I mean, my, I think my, my kids are just happy that I'm home and that's, that's all

00:48:31.640 they wanted.

00:48:32.080 But so it's, yeah, I bet.

00:48:36.360 Um, well, that's one of the things I talked with you about when we hopped on the phone

00:48:40.580 last week, as I said, man, I just wanted to tell you how much I see you spending time

00:48:44.040 with your wife and your kids.

00:48:45.240 And I wish more people would, cause you posted online, which I actually like, and I wish more

00:48:51.100 people would do that.

00:48:51.960 I try to do that because that's been good for me.

00:48:55.180 And I think that would be good for other men.

00:48:56.740 And, and usually what you'll see is people posting, you know, the vacations and the,

00:49:01.900 the, the big experiences they go on, their families aren't there.

00:49:05.120 They, they, they share their business accolades and, and all that stuff's great.

00:49:08.500 I'm not, I'm not trying to diminish that, but I'm saying, man, like how valuable, important

00:49:13.420 is this?

00:49:14.080 And I think that's a message message that needs to be shared.

00:49:16.380 And that's something that you're actually doing very well.

00:49:18.860 What, what have, what have been the struggles of fatherhood for you?

00:49:21.760 Cause I mean, you've always been a father, right?

00:49:23.760 You know, you've got, you've got kids that are, that are out of the house now or getting

00:49:26.600 close.

00:49:27.780 So you've been a father, but you haven't been engaged to the degree that you are physically.

00:49:32.780 So what, what, what have been the biggest challenges for you and raising your kids now

00:49:38.180 that you're home full-time and permanently?

00:49:42.460 Yeah.

00:49:44.160 Definitely the disciplinary aspect of things.

00:49:48.160 Um, I was more of the nice guy.

00:49:53.040 I'm not the disciplinarian just because, and probably the fun one too, right?

00:49:56.720 Cause you come home and you're like, let's do all the fun stuff.

00:49:58.740 And mom's like, what the hell I've been disciplining the kids and you get to have fun with them.

00:50:03.400 Exactly.

00:50:03.840 Yeah.

00:50:04.120 So that's, you know, my wife's always the bad guy.

00:50:06.580 Yeah, for sure.

00:50:07.520 I missed her good time.

00:50:08.400 And that's just, you know, like you said, I never wanted to come back and leave on a bad

00:50:14.380 note.

00:50:14.620 Like I just, you know, disciplined them.

00:50:16.380 So, um, getting into like the swing of that and then like, okay, like really hammering

00:50:22.200 down with discipline.

00:50:23.480 Um, you know, like the first couple of times I did it, my kids were looking at me like,

00:50:28.140 what's like, you know, but they're better than like, who, who the hell do you think

00:50:32.460 you are?

00:50:32.920 Right.

00:50:33.680 Oh yeah, exactly.

00:50:35.240 But I'll tell you what, because I don't discipline them.

00:50:37.620 Uh, like I'm not the main disciplinarian when I do say something that happens like, like

00:50:42.080 that, you know, like, okay, it's, he's not messing around.

00:50:45.180 Um, and then, uh, just, um, I mean, transition itself out of the military as it's great.

00:50:55.020 You know, it's, it's been crazy just like dealing, dealing with the everyday stuff, like

00:50:59.720 dropping my kids off at school, like doing homework with them.

00:51:02.580 Um, um, the struggle has been sort of like trying to really focus and, you know, buckle

00:51:09.560 down and sit down with the kids and do their stuff with them.

00:51:11.940 Even, even if I don't want to do it, I'm like, all right, this, this is, you know, what a

00:51:16.860 man's supposed to do, what a father's supposed to do.

00:51:18.880 Um, and the kids appreciate it, you know, even though they might not show it at the end,

00:51:23.180 they're, they're definitely happy that you spend time with them.

00:51:26.860 Um, and then the big thing is with my daughter, obviously that, I think that's any man's

00:51:30.800 struggle once your daughter reaches high school age, which that's, but she's such a, I mean,

00:51:35.460 she's an amazing woman, um, that I just, I have to find that balance of, uh, letting her

00:51:44.280 sort of be free and then still trying to be a protective dad.

00:51:47.580 Yeah.

00:51:48.900 Yeah.

00:51:49.300 There's a fine line.

00:51:50.220 Do you ever feel like, I'm going to say it this way and, and take it with a grain of salt

00:51:53.740 and for the, the, the way that it's intended.

00:51:55.420 Do you ever feel like family life is too like low speed for you?

00:52:00.800 I, I, I don't know if that's the right way to phrase it, but sometimes like, for example,

00:52:04.680 my wife is, is gone.

00:52:06.960 She's been gone for a couple of days.

00:52:08.120 My kids in fact, right now are downstairs.

00:52:10.520 I don't know what they're doing.

00:52:11.420 They're quiet, which could either be really good or really bad.

00:52:13.700 I don't know what they're doing right now.

00:52:15.500 Um, but sometimes I feel like, you know, my daughter's like, let's read.

00:52:19.000 And I want to read with my daughter, but at the same time, I'm like, no, I got a podcast

00:52:21.660 and I got emails and I got this and I got that and I got to grow the business.

00:52:24.480 And sometimes I feel like, again, take it with a grain of salt.

00:52:27.820 It's like a little too low speed.

00:52:29.940 And it's hard for me to like, just sit there and be present in reading a Dr. Seuss book with

00:52:36.240 my daughter.

00:52:36.920 Does that make sense?

00:52:38.020 No, completely.

00:52:38.940 And you know, you, you hit it on the button.

00:52:41.060 It's, uh, that that's like part of the transition process is going from this, how I describe it.

00:52:49.020 Like the seal community is you're on a train going under 20 miles an hour, like all the

00:52:53.940 time and everything that you deal with or that happens, you just throw in the caboose

00:52:59.840 and you're like, just keep going.

00:53:01.500 And that's, I mean, that's the lifestyle that you lead.

00:53:03.580 So like, even when I was home and this, this sucks to say, but it's the truth.

00:53:07.740 Like, even when I was home during my career, my mind wasn't at home.

00:53:12.160 It was always, what's the next thing, you know, next train trip, the next deployment.

00:53:19.020 And I didn't realize I was like that until I got out and it sort of hits you.

00:53:26.380 And you're like, dude, I, like, I had this, uh, almost like an anxiety feeling.

00:53:31.360 Like there's something coming up, but there's nothing.

00:53:34.300 So there's nothing coming up.

00:53:36.100 But I, to me, I was like, you know, I'm looking for the next thing.

00:53:41.440 And that took some time to get used to.

00:53:44.060 So yeah, so, but I, I think it wasn't an easy process, but I think now after being

00:53:49.680 home a year, I've, I've definitely come into my own life.

00:53:53.400 I've accepted.

00:53:54.000 I like, this is, this is a life I want because it, and that's the crazy part is it is a life

00:53:59.540 I want, but after 20 years of living that 120 mile an hour speed life, it's, it takes

00:54:04.940 some time to like really decompress from that and just settle into being home.

00:54:09.460 Um, so yeah, it's, that, that's been a difficult part of it as well.

00:54:14.820 Yeah.

00:54:15.180 I think that, I think that's something most men listening to, if they have families, most,

00:54:19.440 most men experience.

00:54:21.600 That's why I wanted to ask you is because, you know, you go from this, you know, this,

00:54:26.220 this, this crazy job.

00:54:27.480 And I think probably, I think crazy job is probably because I've seen a lot of movies,

00:54:31.740 you know, it's probably not as, as crazy or intense or exciting as we make it out to be,

00:54:36.960 you know, but yeah, it's, uh, that's definitely true too.

00:54:40.900 Yeah.

00:54:41.100 It's not a Hollywood enough like they've portrayed in the movies.

00:54:43.720 A lot of, a lot of sitting around waiting.

00:54:45.680 Yeah.

00:54:46.280 Yeah.

00:54:46.900 Yeah.

00:54:47.180 And I, and I've been on the, uh, the receiving end of that, you know, and people say, oh yeah,

00:54:51.320 you're in the military and you did this and this.

00:54:52.880 I'm like, yeah, I did that like 10% of the time or less.

00:54:55.720 And the other 95% of the time was sitting around like inventing stupid games to like pass

00:55:02.220 the time, you know, yeah, I think, you know, and I, I think for, you know, guys listening

00:55:11.200 or whatever, um, it, it took me like, I wouldn't say that it took me to have my family ripped

00:55:18.520 away from me and possibly for the rest of my life to really appreciate it.

00:55:21.240 But it gave me a new perspective, just being a home now and like, I, this I'm on borrowed

00:55:28.020 time, you know, like this could have been all been taken away from me.

00:55:31.720 So when I start feeling like that, that feeling of like, oh, I should be doing something else

00:55:37.140 or this is too slow for me.

00:55:39.340 I, I'm able to like pull from that and be like, you know what, this is, this is the most important

00:55:45.780 thing right here, it's my kids and everything that you do with them, like, even though you

00:55:51.460 may not think it is affecting them and they're, they're, uh, like even the little time that

00:55:57.100 you do spend them, they appreciate it.

00:55:59.360 I mean, they remember things like that.

00:56:01.440 That's, what's really going to like help them grow, um, into a human being that you want

00:56:06.920 them to be.

00:56:08.000 Yeah.

00:56:08.200 How do you, uh, how do you feel like, so, so in this conversation, it sounds like, even

00:56:15.360 though in the midst of this unreal situation that I, I just, I mean, it's a movie.

00:56:20.400 It's not, it doesn't even seem like real life.

00:56:22.220 Like this wouldn't have been a better script that some, you know, fictional writer could,

00:56:26.280 could draft up.

00:56:27.560 Um, so you have this insane experience of your life that lasts a couple of years and, but you've

00:56:34.720 talked about some positives that have come from it.

00:56:36.680 Like your relationship, for example, with God, and then your perspective in why family

00:56:40.660 is so important.

00:56:42.480 How do you plan on maintaining those positive perspectives now that life is, I don't want

00:56:48.300 to say easier, but maybe just a little smoother relative to what it's been over the past several

00:56:55.140 years.

00:56:55.960 Yeah.

00:56:56.680 Um, well that's, that comes with, I think, finding a new purpose.

00:57:00.560 Uh, and that's another huge positive or blessing that came out of this is, um, you know, we,

00:57:09.220 we got to see behind the curtain that we didn't know existed, which is this corrupt, uh, legal

00:57:15.600 system that's in the military.

00:57:16.880 Um, you know, you know, my story is just one in a thousand of like those guys, you know,

00:57:23.860 getting unjustly punished right now.

00:57:26.100 Um, and so we started the, um, Pipeter Foundation, um, which is up and running now and we're helping

00:57:34.760 first responders, uh, law enforcement and active duty members.

00:57:38.560 Um, if they're being unjustly accused or targeted, we will help fund their legal defense, um, we'll

00:57:46.800 advocate for them and we also provide, uh, emergency relief funds to the family because, as we found

00:57:53.520 out when you go through it, it's a very stressful time, um, and you know, the military and also

00:58:00.260 first responders and law enforcement don't get paid enough to have, um, to be able to afford

00:58:05.140 a group of good lawyers or whatever.

00:58:06.880 So how do you guys, uh, how do you vet these individuals?

00:58:10.220 Like, how do you know whether they're being unjustly, you know, targeted or, or they are

00:58:15.400 in fact innocent versus, you know, somebody that maybe is being justly accused.

00:58:20.880 So how do you, how do you vet that whole process?

00:58:23.360 We have a, so we have a board, um, so the way it works is, uh, that person will apply for

00:58:28.980 a grant on our site and then our board, uh, once, sometimes twice a month would use.

00:58:35.140 All of the applications and we, we, when they fill out the application, we ask them to be

00:58:40.180 very detailed, uh, on everything they're being charged with or else we just won't accept it.

00:58:46.140 Um, right.

00:58:47.900 So we look, we delve into it pretty deeply.

00:58:50.820 Um, and you know, I'll, I'll say we turn away a lot of applicants because we're like,

00:58:54.640 this doesn't seem right.

00:58:56.520 Um, but then, you know, I have, uh, really great lawyer, Mark McCasey's on the board.

00:59:03.520 Um, I have, um, law enforcement members in the board, other seals, uh, retired seals.

00:59:11.520 And so altogether, you know, we, we usually come up with a pretty good, like, okay, you

00:59:16.520 know, we're, we're all in favor of helping this person out.

00:59:19.520 And I'll tell you this too, like, even if a person's guilty, what we're finding out now

00:59:23.520 too, and we're helping some, even if they got found guilty, the, the punishments that

00:59:28.520 are being handed out by the military do not fit the crime.

00:59:31.520 So like the military, like you're like sort of what I got charged with was conduct I'm

00:59:38.520 becoming picture.

00:59:39.520 That's a misdemeanor.

00:59:40.520 But because I went to a court martial, they tried to take away my retirement.

00:59:45.520 They tried to take away my whole 20 years of service for that.

00:59:48.520 Uh, take away my trident, which I mean, would destroy myself and my family.

00:59:53.520 That's just, you know.

00:59:54.520 And that's where, that's where Trump stepped in.

00:59:56.520 Right.

00:59:57.520 Cause I think there's a misconception out there that he pardoned you, but you only got

01:00:00.520 you weren't pardoned.

01:00:02.520 You didn't get tried or, or, or found, I should say guilty of these, some of these

01:00:07.520 allegations, just this, uh, this conduct unbecoming, which, which he didn't have to

01:00:12.520 pardon you served.

01:00:13.520 Actually you served twice as long as your, your sentencing was, if I understand.

01:00:17.520 Yeah.

01:00:18.520 Almost, almost three times as long as three times.

01:00:20.520 Yeah.

01:00:21.520 Um, so yeah, the president did not pardon me.

01:00:23.520 He, he called and just said, listen, you're going to be able to, you're going to retire with

01:00:27.520 everything that you earned over 20 years.

01:00:29.520 That's the rank that you are at right now.

01:00:32.520 I mean, that's what he did for me because other than that, I would, it would be like

01:00:36.520 the 20 years of my life just got erased.

01:00:38.520 Uh, which is insane because look, I saw that picture.

01:00:41.520 I think I saw the picture in question.

01:00:43.520 I think that was the right one.

01:00:44.520 And yeah, it's, it's, it's not in good taste.

01:00:47.520 You, you've admitted to that.

01:00:48.520 You've said that, but it's not the end of the world either.

01:00:52.520 Like it isn't, it isn't, the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

01:00:57.520 Totally.

01:00:58.520 And that's, that's what we're seeing with a lot of people were helping.

01:01:01.520 So, um, you know, whether, you know, sometimes a person is guilty or like, okay, he served

01:01:08.520 his time.

01:01:09.520 But now the command is really like going, going after him and taking away his medical benefits

01:01:14.520 and everything's, you know, that's not right.

01:01:17.520 Uh, you know, people make mistakes.

01:01:19.520 They pay for those mistakes and should just be left with that.

01:01:23.520 Um, but I think.

01:01:24.520 Do you think that command does that?

01:01:26.520 Sorry, man.

01:01:27.520 I didn't mean to interrupt you.

01:01:28.520 I was just curious on this, the, the command thing you're talking about.

01:01:31.520 Does command do that because they feel embarrassed?

01:01:34.520 Like, and so that it's a way to like poke and get back and get some retribution.

01:01:39.520 Like what?

01:01:40.520 Ego.

01:01:41.520 So it's all like ego gets involved.

01:01:43.520 Um, because you gotta think you're, it's not a, uh, it's not a non-biased process.

01:01:48.520 You have, uh, your commander who knows you or you're one of his guys.

01:01:54.520 And the second, like he gets embarrassed or something doesn't go his way.

01:01:59.520 Guess who?

01:02:00.520 He's probably going to take it out on you.

01:02:02.520 Of course.

01:02:03.520 All of that, all that ego and emotions falls into whatever decision he's going to make.

01:02:08.520 And we're, you know, we're seeing it now with multiple members, members that were helping

01:02:12.520 that, I mean, they're, they're getting raked over the coals just because this commander

01:02:18.520 who was making these decisions is buggered that things didn't go his way.

01:02:22.520 Right.

01:02:23.520 So we're sticking up to those people too, you know, because they're human beings and you

01:02:28.520 can't just throw them to the street.

01:02:29.520 What we're seeing is they're throwing these service members to the street doing nothing.

01:02:32.520 And then guess what that leads to?

01:02:34.520 The 22 a day at a time.

01:02:36.520 Right.

01:02:37.520 Yeah.

01:02:38.520 It goes hand in hand and it's only going to get worse.

01:02:41.520 Can I ask you something personally about that?

01:02:42.520 Actually, Eddie, on that, the 22 a day is, is that something did you during this experience

01:02:47.520 ever contemplate, seriously contemplate and consider taking your own life?

01:02:50.520 No, no, not once.

01:02:53.520 I got asked that a couple of times, you know, like, oh, you think about suicide.

01:02:59.520 And now I was like, but if I go away for life, it's like, I will probably end up trying to

01:03:06.520 escape until someone kills me.

01:03:08.520 Hey, look, that's, that's actually one of the, you're trained, right?

01:03:12.520 You got, that's part of your training is to escape.

01:03:15.520 Like that's part of your training, which I think is why they probably considered you

01:03:18.520 maybe a flight risk.

01:03:19.520 I think at one point I heard, uh, because you do have some of that training.

01:03:23.520 Uh, that's what they use to keep me.

01:03:25.520 Right.

01:03:26.520 They, they, uh, they're like, oh, you're a Navy SEAL.

01:03:28.520 So we have to keep, uh, which I thought was pretty disgusting as well.

01:03:33.520 They use my job against me at every school.

01:03:36.520 Using the job they trained you to do.

01:03:38.520 Yeah.

01:03:39.520 So they, you know, that was the reason they kept me in, but yeah, no, I, I never went to

01:03:44.520 that, that, you know, that dark of the space.

01:03:47.520 Uh, and I'm not, yeah, I just, it never crossed my mind.

01:03:52.520 Yeah.

01:03:53.520 Are you guys doing any, the pipe hitter foundation?

01:03:55.520 Are you guys doing any outside of representing these individuals doing any sort of, uh, lobbying

01:04:00.520 for the way the UCMJ is administered?

01:04:03.520 Is that, is that a, is that a branch of what you guys are doing?

01:04:06.520 That's yeah.

01:04:07.520 That's one of the purposes is to sort of ask for UCMJ reform.

01:04:10.520 Um, we're not, we're not at that platform yet.

01:04:14.520 Uh, since, you know, 2020 has been kind of number on everybody.

01:04:17.520 So, I mean, we've got the nonprofit started, but then the, you know, the fundraising is

01:04:22.520 going to go slow just because of the librarian that's going on.

01:04:25.520 So I think once we're hoping in 2021, that's when, uh, we'll be able to start going out

01:04:30.520 lobbying for, you know, UCMJ reform because it's an archaic system.

01:04:35.520 Yeah.

01:04:36.520 It sounds like it.

01:04:37.520 I mean, fortunately I haven't had a much experience with it for myself.

01:04:40.520 So that's a good thing.

01:04:41.520 Um, but yeah, I mean, based on what I've heard and what I've seen and what I've heard you

01:04:46.520 talk about on another podcast and of course in the book, like, it seems like there definitely

01:04:50.520 needs, there, there's a lot of conflicts of interest there that I think need to be extracted.

01:04:53.520 Um, so there isn't that personal attachment to it.

01:04:57.520 Like you were talking about earlier.

01:04:58.520 Exactly.

01:04:59.520 Yeah.

01:05:00.520 I mean, I think it's, it's hard to explain to civilians, um, just how messed up the UCMJ

01:05:07.520 is, but like, you know, I have, you can, the Navy assigned you a defense lawyer, you know,

01:05:13.520 if you're being charged with something, but this is what, what I saw.

01:05:17.520 And the problem is that your defense lawyer could work for the prosecutor who's prosecuting

01:05:23.520 you and they both could work, end up working for the judge.

01:05:26.520 Right.

01:05:27.520 So they, you won't be properly defended because that jag that's defending you is worried

01:05:33.520 about his career.

01:05:34.520 It's like, well, you know, even when we caught the prosecution doing the legal stuff, I'm,

01:05:38.520 I was sitting there like, how is it that they're getting away with this?

01:05:41.520 And it was because nobody wants to say anything.

01:05:44.520 Cause we're like, well, that guy might write my pit rep later on down the line, like call

01:05:48.520 him out on this.

01:05:49.520 It's going to look bad on me.

01:05:50.520 And I mean, that is literally how it works.

01:05:52.520 And so.

01:05:53.520 That's interesting.

01:05:54.520 I hadn't considered that.

01:05:55.520 Yeah.

01:05:56.520 Did you got outside representation then eventually?

01:05:57.520 Is that what you ended up doing?

01:05:59.520 Okay.

01:06:00.520 So representation, not that as not part of the military civilian representation.

01:06:04.520 Yep.

01:06:05.520 Yeah.

01:06:06.520 So we ended up, and that's where the fundraising aspect comes in because we couldn't afford

01:06:12.520 the lawyers that we had.

01:06:14.520 So thank God.

01:06:15.520 Thank God that, you know, there was so many, you know, patriots that got behind me and Americans

01:06:21.520 made, they donated to help us pay for our legal visa.

01:06:24.520 If they didn't do that, we'd be, we'd be in debt right now.

01:06:29.520 Um, so yeah, we definitely had to hire outside.

01:06:33.520 Cause I, I wasn't leaving it up to, you know, military, not to say that there are some good

01:06:40.520 military lawyers out there, but I, no doubt I wasn't, I wasn't messing around.

01:06:44.520 Like your life, man.

01:06:47.520 Yeah.

01:06:48.520 Yeah.

01:06:49.520 Uh, what's your, uh, what is your perception of, of military service now and, and, and everything

01:06:56.520 that's gone on for you, both positive and negative, you know, I'm sure there's some, some thoughts

01:07:01.520 on both sides of that.

01:07:02.520 I'm really curious what your take is now that you're on the other side of things looking

01:07:06.520 back.

01:07:07.520 Yeah.

01:07:08.520 Um, you know, I have no negative thoughts on my, my, my service or anything like that.

01:07:15.520 Like I wouldn't give back the past 20 years for anything that was, I mean, it shaped me

01:07:20.520 into who I am today.

01:07:21.520 Um, I, I've loved my job.

01:07:24.520 I love the guys that I was with.

01:07:26.520 Um, I still, you know, I miss it.

01:07:28.520 Um, uh, but I think definitely looking back.

01:07:33.520 Um, there's, I, I would feel like if I was going to talk to somebody that wanted to join

01:07:41.520 right now, like seals or a kid and I do it once in a while, I would definitely be honest

01:07:47.520 with him and be like, you know, if you're going to do this job, if you make it through,

01:07:52.520 you are going to give up certain aspects of yourself.

01:07:55.520 Um, you know, whether you like it or not, you know, you're going to give up parts to

01:08:00.520 your brain, you know, your parts of your soul, you know, it's, and it will have, you know,

01:08:07.520 repercussions in the end, but just so as long as that person knows that, like, this is part

01:08:11.520 of the, uh, sacrifice, you know, of doing the job.

01:08:15.520 Um, I don't, I don't think that that was explained to anybody going in and I wouldn't,

01:08:19.520 even if that was explained to me when I was little, I still would have done it.

01:08:22.520 I was younger, you know, 18, 19, I was like, this is what I want to do.

01:08:27.520 But you're also being recruited by people who don't understand.

01:08:30.520 Like they, how, how would a recruiter for the most part, I'm sure there's some special

01:08:35.520 operators, recruiters, maybe, I don't know, but how would they, how would they understand

01:08:39.520 what it is that you're actually going to be doing?

01:08:42.520 And they wouldn't.

01:08:43.520 I mean, no, they, they definitely wouldn't.

01:08:45.520 Um, I think for people joining now, they need to go to talk to like a SEAL motivator.

01:08:49.520 Um, who is actually a SEAL and will be able to explain just exactly how everything works.

01:08:54.520 Um, but I, I definitely think that there needs to be a huge focus and that's, that's also

01:08:59.520 going to be one thing that we're adding on to the foundation is just the focus on mental

01:09:04.520 health for guys, uh, when they're getting out.

01:09:06.520 Um, I think that's being dropped big time.

01:09:09.520 I think the VA is not doing its job, uh, helping guys out.

01:09:14.520 There's a lot of, there's a lot of, uh, foundations out there that are coming together now.

01:09:20.520 Yeah.

01:09:21.520 Yeah.

01:09:22.520 Yeah.

01:09:23.520 Yeah.

01:09:24.520 Yeah.

01:09:25.520 I don't think it's enough.

01:09:26.520 And I think it's only going to get worse here as we hit the 20 year anniversary of

01:09:31.520 next year.

01:09:32.520 Um, so you're going to see a lot of guys tiring that have been doing nothing to fighting a

01:09:38.520 war for two decades.

01:09:39.520 Yeah.

01:09:40.520 Yeah.

01:09:41.520 Good point.

01:09:42.520 It's going to, they're going to need some help when they get out.

01:09:44.520 Yeah.

01:09:45.520 Yeah.

01:09:46.520 Well, Eddie, it sounds like you're doing good work, man.

01:09:48.520 It sounds like you found your purpose and your mission outside of, you know, family,

01:09:51.520 of course, but outside of military service as well.

01:09:53.520 And in the pipe hitter foundation, um, let the guys know as we wind down how to connect

01:09:58.520 with you via that foundation and also how to pick up a copy of your book.

01:10:03.520 Cause I know a lot of men listening to this are going to be very, very interested in hearing

01:10:06.520 the in depth, uh, story from your perspective cause they haven't heard it before.

01:10:11.520 Yeah.

01:10:12.520 Um, sure.

01:10:13.520 Yeah.

01:10:14.520 So you can go, we're doing pre-orders right now.

01:10:15.520 Uh, so the book is currently being reviewed by DOD.

01:10:19.520 Um, and we, unfortunately we don't have any control of that process.

01:10:22.520 They've had it for about two and a half months.

01:10:24.520 Um, I'm being optimistic and saying I'm giving about another two months.

01:10:29.520 Yeah, that dude, you're an interest.

01:10:31.520 I didn't think about that on the, the DOD review.

01:10:33.520 You're, you're an interesting perspective cause it's not like you're talking about like

01:10:38.520 all of the good stuff that happens.

01:10:40.520 Yeah.

01:10:41.520 So that's interesting.

01:10:42.520 I had not considered that.

01:10:44.520 That might take a little longer than what I've seen in the past for some of these guys.

01:10:48.520 Yup.

01:10:49.520 So that's, I mean, we knew that right when we handed the DOD.

01:10:51.520 We were like, this could be a while.

01:10:53.520 Um, but I, I'm being, we, we have, we have a contact that's saying like it's the,

01:10:58.520 it's going along through the process.

01:10:59.520 Um, and, uh, so that you can do pre-order bundles right now.

01:11:04.520 So you go to Eddie Gallagher book.com and, uh, do a pre-order bundle.

01:11:08.520 With that, you will receive the book a month before it's actual release date.

01:11:12.520 And it's personally signed, uh, comes with challenge coins, some free Eddie, uh, stickers

01:11:18.520 and paraphernalia and, uh, no personalized note for myself and my wife.

01:11:22.520 Um, and then, uh, as far as the, uh, of the pipe air foundation, that's just, you know,

01:11:28.520 pipe air foundation.org.

01:11:30.520 Uh, just go look it up.

01:11:32.520 And if you are somebody that's needing some help, then there's an application on there.

01:11:37.520 Fill it out.

01:11:38.520 And we, like I said, we review them once or twice a month.

01:11:41.520 And there's also a, uh, portal to donate to the foundation as well.

01:11:45.520 Um, because I'm telling you that's a huge gap.

01:11:48.520 That's not being filled with trying to, uh, be that filled with work right now.

01:11:53.520 And, um, yeah, that's, that's pretty much it.

01:11:58.520 Um, you know, that's perfect, man.

01:12:02.520 We'll make sure we sync everything up.

01:12:04.520 So the guys know exactly where to go, man.

01:12:06.520 I just got to tell you, I really appreciate you.

01:12:07.520 I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while now.

01:12:10.520 And man, I just appreciate what you've done for this country.

01:12:13.520 And then ultimately some sacrifices that you and your family had to make that, uh,

01:12:18.520 from my perspective, from where I sit, didn't seem just.

01:12:21.520 And, and I appreciate you taking that and then turning it into a positive with your foundation

01:12:26.520 and putting the information out there, which I'm sure isn't easy.

01:12:30.520 And like you said, it's therapeutic maybe, but still conjures up some, some pain.

01:12:34.520 I imagine.

01:12:35.520 I just appreciate how you show up and how you lead your family and all the work that you've

01:12:39.520 done.

01:12:40.520 So thanks, Eddie.

01:12:41.520 Appreciate you, man.

01:12:42.520 I appreciate it, brother.

01:12:43.520 I appreciate you having me on.

01:12:44.520 It's an honor to be here.

01:12:45.520 I appreciate what you're doing.

01:12:46.520 And also for your service.

01:12:47.520 And, uh, just to add on, you know, like God put this in front of me and all this happened

01:12:53.520 for a reason.

01:12:54.520 Um, I try to be, you know, stay positive about it.

01:12:57.520 You know, when I was locked up, you know, me and my wife and I would talk, we're like,

01:13:02.520 you know, this is happening for a reason.

01:13:04.520 God put this on us for a reason.

01:13:05.520 And we're starting to see why, um, you know, it gave us as much of a nightmare as this was.

01:13:10.520 It gave us a platform to help others.

01:13:12.520 Well, that's what, that's what we're using it for.

01:13:14.520 Well, you're doing a lot of good work, man.

01:13:16.520 And I'm here to support you.

01:13:17.520 So if you need my help in any way, or something comes up, obviously I'm going to promote this,

01:13:21.520 but if something comes up, man, I'm, I'm here to support you.

01:13:23.520 So you just let me know.

01:13:24.520 I appreciate that, brother.

01:13:25.520 Thanks man.

01:13:26.520 Thank you.

01:13:27.520 Gentlemen, there you go.

01:13:28.520 My conversation with the one and only Eddie Gallagher.

01:13:31.520 I told you that was going to be a good one.

01:13:33.520 I, I, I knew that as I was talking with him, I was on the edge of my seat thinking about

01:13:38.520 if it were me going through this experience and how I would handle that.

01:13:41.520 And the guy is absolutely phenomenal.

01:13:43.520 Uh, he's got a very powerful life experience that, uh, well, I think serve him and his family

01:13:50.520 serve thousands of, of us who listened to his story and maybe live our lives a little bit

01:13:56.520 differently because we do.

01:13:57.520 So if you're interested in the full story, the things that we weren't able to get to on

01:14:01.520 the podcast, then pick up a copy of his book.

01:14:03.520 Uh, it's available for pre-order right now at eddiegallagherbook.com.

01:14:07.520 Uh, I would do the pre-order if I were you, and I would do it quick because I know the pre-orders,

01:14:12.520 uh, well, the package, the, uh, the special things that you get in the pre-order package will

01:14:17.520 go quickly.

01:14:18.520 Make sure you do that eddiegallagherbook.com eddiegallagherbook.com.

01:14:22.520 Also connect with him on the socials.

01:14:24.520 Uh, he's very active.

01:14:25.520 I believe on Instagram.

01:14:26.520 I think he's where he's most active connect with me.

01:14:28.520 Uh, let Eddie know, let me know what you thought about the podcast and then also share

01:14:32.520 it.

01:14:33.520 All right, please.

01:14:34.520 If you would share the podcast, uh, more people need to hear his story, his side

01:14:37.520 of the story.

01:14:38.520 Uh, if he finally has the platform and the opportunity to talk about it.

01:14:41.520 So, uh, please share this.

01:14:43.520 Just take a screenshot of, of you listening, post on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, wherever you're

01:14:47.520 doing the social media thing.

01:14:49.520 So that's it guys.

01:14:50.520 That's all we've got.

01:14:51.520 Remember the iron council battle brothers, uh, pick up a copy of, uh, the man in the arena,

01:14:55.520 go to origin, check out their boots for Christmas.

01:14:58.520 You got a lot to do.

01:14:59.520 We're going to be back tomorrow for my ask me anything with Mr. Kip Sorensen.

01:15:03.520 But until then go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

01:15:07.520 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

01:15:10.520 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:15:14.520 We invite you to join the order and order of man.com.

01:15:17.520 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

01:15:21.520 You

01:15:23.520 Yeah.

01:15:27.520 Thank you.

01:15:32.520 You

01:15:34.520 You

01:15:35.520 You

01:15:39.520 Yeah.

01:15:40.520 Yeah.

Order of Man - December 08, 2020

The Man in the Arena ｜ EDDIE GALLAGHER

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