TIM BALLARD ｜ Eradicating Child Sex Trafficking
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
205.38416
Summary
Tim Ballard is the founder and CEO of Operation Underground Railroad, which exists to rescue children from dangerous and despicable sex rings. In this episode, we talk about what a truly compassionate border policy would look like, the hyper-sexualization of the world and the degeneracy it leads to, how unintended policy incentives often make problems worse, why evil lurks behind the concept of tolerance, and also his latest film uncovering the underground child sex trade called Sound of Freedom.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
Child sex trafficking literally permeates every corner of the globe. It's despicable,
00:00:04.860
it's nasty, and it's a growing trend. Even in 2023, where most men recognize problems in this
00:00:11.720
world, few are willing to put their own careers and lives on the line to create and come up with
00:00:17.100
solutions. My guest today is built different. His name is Tim Ballard, and he is the founder
00:00:21.400
of Operation Underground Railroad, which exists to rescue children from dangerous and despicable
00:00:27.820
sex rings. Today, we talk about what a truly compassionate border policy would look like,
00:00:33.340
the hyper-sexualization of the world and the degeneracy it leads to, how unintended policy
00:00:38.720
incentives often make problems worse, why evil lurks behind the concept of tolerance,
00:00:45.160
and also his latest film uncovering the underground child sex trade called Sound of Freedom.
00:00:50.740
You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly charge
00:00:55.740
your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You
00:01:01.300
are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This
00:01:07.560
is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said
00:01:12.580
and done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name
00:01:17.180
is Ryan Mickler. I'm your host and the founder of the Order of Men podcast and movement. Welcome
00:01:21.520
here today. I've got a really, really important discussion with somebody that has been on the
00:01:26.420
podcast before and somebody I think so highly of because he's doing good work in the world to rescue
00:01:32.240
people, to serve people, and is living the epitome, I believe, of what it means to be a man, to protect,
00:01:39.980
to provide, to preside. He's leading that charge with Operation Underground Railroad. I'm going to get
00:01:46.460
into that in just a minute. I want to mention, first, I just want to thank you for joining with
00:01:50.640
us and more importantly, for implementing the information that we share and talk about. If all
00:01:54.920
we do is consume and we don't ever go out and put this stuff into practice, we might as well not
00:01:59.280
consume the information that's here. So if you're new, we've got great guests like Tim on today.
00:02:03.840
Other Tims is Tim Kennedy we've had on, Tim Tebow we've had on. We've had guys like David Goggins and
00:02:09.000
Jocko Willink and Matthew McConaughey and Terry Crews and the lineup of men that join us on this
00:02:14.900
podcast is a testament to the conversations we're having and the fact that we as men collectively
00:02:19.820
want to improve. We want to get better and we want the information and resources to do it. So
00:02:24.320
that's my job to give that to you. Before we get into the conversation, also just want to mention
00:02:29.380
that our exclusive brotherhood, the Iron Council, is open for enrollment for a very limited time just
00:02:34.940
till the end of this month. So I believe this podcast comes out on the 20th, I believe, of June.
00:02:41.480
We're going to be open until the end of this month. So check it out. If you're interested,
00:02:46.400
it's a brotherhood of all like-minded men working together towards common goals, objectives,
00:02:50.640
and holding each other accountable to do so. You can check that out at orderofman.com
00:02:55.040
slash Iron Council. Guys, with that said, let me introduce you again to a repeat guest
00:02:59.740
and a man who's just doing incredible things in the service of those who cannot save themselves.
00:03:06.380
His name is Tim Ballard. He's the founder and CEO of Operation Underground Railroad,
00:03:10.100
which I mentioned. They rescue children from sex trafficking rings. He also spent over a decade
00:03:16.120
as a special agent for the Department of Homeland Security, which really just gave him some valuable
00:03:20.980
insight and intel and the ability to target these sex rings and do something about them.
00:03:26.840
He's been instrumental in developing software and internet technology and investigations to
00:03:31.400
infiltrate file share networks, which target child pornography exchanges. And he's got a new feature
00:03:38.280
movie highlighting his life's work and the good he's doing. And that's titled Sound of Freedom.
00:03:43.600
Enjoy this one, guys. And more importantly, do something about his mission.
00:03:48.860
Tim, what's up, man? Great to see you again. I was looking at it. It's been like five or six years
00:03:52.920
now since we talked last. I know. I can't believe it, man. Thanks for having me on.
00:03:56.700
Yeah, you bet. I'm still, I think I said this the last time we talked, I'm still just
00:04:01.040
dumbfounded that sex trafficking, especially for children is such a huge issue. I cannot believe
00:04:07.960
it's so prevalent today in, you know, 2023. It just seems wild to me.
00:04:14.080
It's crazy that it's, it's growing even more so right now. It's just, it's still, it's still the
00:04:18.120
fastest growing criminal enterprise in the world. I mean, last I looked, it's now rivaling the drug
00:04:22.000
trade, you know, it's because what, what these traffickers are finding is, look, I can sell it back
00:04:26.200
at cocaine once. I can sell a child 10 to 20 times over a 24 hour period. So it's extremely
00:04:31.500
lucrative. And so long as the United States, we are the, we are the number one demand. And so long
00:04:36.760
as we continue sexualizing the world and pornifying the world, sexualizing children, well, that demand
00:04:41.900
is just going to keep increasing and the traffickers are going to continue to do their, their dirty work
00:04:45.240
on kids. So. So you, you said that the United States is, is the number one consumer. Am I
00:04:51.540
understanding you correctly? Yeah. The United States almost every year is the number one or two
00:04:55.960
consumer of child exploitation material. And, and also over the last two or three years,
00:05:01.720
state department has even admitted that the United States is in the top three countries
00:05:05.880
for, for destination countries, for human trafficking, which makes sense. I mean, it's just
00:05:09.960
economics. You got the demand is here. The people, the pedophiles are congregated here. And so
00:05:17.140
traffickers will get kids to them, which, you know, look at the Southern border, right? 85,000
00:05:22.080
unaccompanied minors, thousands under five years old show up at the port of entry and
00:05:26.880
the release into the United States with no background checks. Well, there you go. You,
00:05:31.160
you, you know, what's happening here. This is so easy. Uh, kids are being exploited. They,
00:05:35.700
they enter the U S nameless identity less, and they're, they're going to be victims their entire
00:05:40.340
life. Thank you. Thanks to this horrific policy on the border.
00:05:43.780
I, I'm glad you said that because that is one of the questions, you know, I think there tends
00:05:48.140
to be a bleeding heart for opening up the borders. And, and, and I think there's a lot of people who
00:05:52.820
actually believe, um, that, that it's, that's helpful. Uh, I don't think they're, they're any
00:05:59.900
sort of, um, ill intent with some of those thoughts, but what often gets overlooked is the natural
00:06:05.560
consequence of having open border policies. Yeah, you're exactly right. People think I'm being
00:06:10.960
kind. I'm letting people in. No, you're not. You just don't understand this. The only compassionate
00:06:15.780
policy, especially if you care about women and children are being abused is to enforce
00:06:20.620
the border. And the reason is, is that human traffickers are making about, according to one
00:06:25.740
report, $14 million a day. And, you know, I, I was 10 years as a, as a special agent undercover
00:06:32.360
operator on the Southern border. And it was not a partisan issue. It wasn't controversial.
00:06:36.940
The more of the wall we built, the more enforcement we did, the more kids we rescued,
00:06:40.880
because it's the last chance kids are being funneled into the U S it's the last chance to catch
00:06:45.540
them to catch the bad guys and rescue the kids. You want those kids being funneled through a port
00:06:49.600
of entry where experts with guns and who are the good guys are taking them out. So open borders
00:06:56.660
facilitate. Once you understand the economics of pedophilia, they're facilitating the trafficking
00:07:02.240
of children. Believe me, if you, if you talk to any of those kids who are being abused right now in
00:07:06.340
New York city or LA, they're going to say this wish to God, there had been a wall when I got brought
00:07:11.640
in that. I had my last chance to scream out to a, to a customs and border protection official
00:07:16.300
and have my life rescued. I've been in the port of entry. I've seen it. I've seen the rescues happen
00:07:21.240
there. I've been part of them. And so it's, it's devastating what's happened and we need to change
00:07:25.180
the, the, the, the argument by telling the truth. The only compassionate policy is border enforcement.
00:07:32.260
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, obviously I can see why that's the case. If it wasn't happening here though,
00:07:38.160
and I'm, I'm just trying to look at it from all angles. You know, obviously we want to police
00:07:43.460
ourself. We want to police this country. We want to, you know, take care of what's going on within
00:07:46.920
our own, our own neighborhoods and backyards. If it wasn't happening here, it seems like it would
00:07:51.040
just, it would happen somewhere else. It's not an excuse not to deal with it here, but it would
00:07:54.960
just happen in other places. That's right. And, and, and that's why, you know, at our foundation,
00:08:00.420
I mean, we are trying to, we're worldwide. We're currently we've worked in 30 countries. We're in all
00:08:05.180
states in the U S and we need a groundwork to be in every state because our job is to consult,
00:08:09.760
empower, train, and work with law enforcement and aftercare services throughout the world to make
00:08:14.240
sure they're doing everything they can to rescue the children in their regions.
00:08:18.580
Are these, so these, I'm assuming most of them are, are underage girls. I imagine is, is the case
00:08:24.420
largely. Where are these girls coming from? Are these, are these girls that are, that are being taken?
00:08:31.340
Are these girls that are, you know, in some sort of foster orphan care? I don't really know where
00:08:37.120
this is, where it starts, I guess I would say. Well, it's a great question. And the answer is
00:08:41.020
human trafficking has different faces in different places. So like in the U S system, you're going to
00:08:46.720
see a lot of foster kids who don't have a lot of supervision in their lives. They end up getting
00:08:51.140
they're, they're, they're like sitting ducks often for traffickers to kind of find their
00:08:55.940
vulnerabilities, exploit them and bring them in thinking they're going to be taken care of.
00:08:59.560
Um, if you look at the kids coming in from the, from the Southern border and coming into the U S,
00:09:03.360
these are largely kids who've been kidnapped in Central America, that it's pretty easy to do
00:09:07.920
that in some countries, little recourse, um, law enforcement's not where it needs to be. So it's,
00:09:12.220
they take these kids, um, and how, thanks to our policies, our policies are incentivizing our policies
00:09:17.920
are the wind at the back of these traffickers. Cause what they do is they, they know our policies and
00:09:21.920
they know that if they just put a safety pin in a, and a little note that says sponsor is,
00:09:26.440
you know, George Smith, here's his phone number, New York city, um, the customs and border officials
00:09:31.260
and the health and human services, they by policy have to call that number and use our tax dollars
00:09:37.880
to send that kid to George Smith with no background check, no DNA analysis off they go. So in the case
00:09:44.460
of the Southern border, that's what's happening there. Um, if you go, if you look at our, our offices
00:09:49.340
in Asia, they, they, they go to impoverished, um, communities and promise them this, that, and the
00:09:54.640
other thing and a job and come on down to the city and then boom, those kids disappear. And mom and dad have
00:10:00.060
no idea where to go again, no recourse, uh, because who's going to listen to an impoverished villager
00:10:05.520
who says my, my child's been taken. Well, you let your child go. It's, it's, it's usually a lure. It's not
00:10:10.660
often the hard, cold kidnapping within the white van coming. That's not generally how it happens. Like the vast
00:10:17.040
majority of cases are, are deception, the lure. That's how they, that's how they get them.
00:10:21.880
I'm sure there's a lot of, uh, grooming that takes place as well. Maybe it's somebody that,
00:10:26.040
you know, that, um, gradually introduces you to, you know, this, this world or this environment
00:10:31.280
or behavior. And then before you know it, you're down this rabbit hole and never to see your,
00:10:35.440
your son or daughter again. I mean, geez. Exactly. Right. In fact, the movie Sound of Freedom
00:10:39.520
that's coming out is based on a true story where that's exactly the, what they used, uh, Miss Cartagena,
00:10:44.280
Kelly Juarez in the film, um, real person who was arrested and actually heard, I just testified in
00:10:49.720
her trial just a few months ago. Um, cause I was the undercover operator leading on that op, but
00:10:54.400
she was a person who was famous, famous in the community. She was Miss Cartagena. She's in music
00:10:59.620
videos and she had a modeling school and she'd give scholarships. In fact, she won Miss Cartagena
00:11:04.000
on the platform that she was going to help impoverished kids of, of, of Columbia and in the Cartagena
00:11:09.340
region. And she was giving scholarships to these kids. Well, these kids would come and be,
00:11:13.240
they want to be rich and famous like her. Well, well, she eventually desensitizes them
00:11:16.660
with, they, what do they do? They use drugs, pornography, and pretty soon say, look, part
00:11:20.540
of this deal is that you, you have sex with these Americans who come down as part of being
00:11:24.200
famous and boom, these kids are gone. They're gone. And, and so, yeah, it's, it's, that's
00:11:28.640
sometimes, like you said, it's a slow lure. Um, and this happens online in the U S right.
00:11:33.660
These guys go online, find our kids, pretend to be the same age. It's really some 50 year
00:11:38.120
old pedophile, but pretending to be a 13 year old, you know, you know, the star quarterback
00:11:42.340
in the next County over talking to this girl and slowly luring them, slowly getting them
00:11:47.180
to trust them. And then they show up in a mall and boom, they're gone.
00:11:50.680
Hmm. Is this a more prevalent? You know, we hear stories about, you know, Hollywood and
00:11:55.500
elites and obviously there's, you know, Epstein and these other, these other actors, uh, is
00:12:02.680
this more prevalent in, in the Hollywood and elite circle because of their access to wealth
00:12:07.960
and people not saying no. And the, the boundaries are, are tested and often not even there at
00:12:17.620
Yeah. So I'll, I'll say this. It's one of the most frustrating things in, in operations and
00:12:21.660
investigating these crimes because there really is no easy profile. We've arrested, you know,
00:12:27.300
clergymen we've arrested, uh, enforcement officers, right. Um, this, this, this, in my, in my
00:12:33.860
cases, I've included those in educators. And so it's, it's very difficult because it really
00:12:38.260
is something that is, if someone's a sex addict and they start wanting that because they have
00:12:42.960
a porn addiction that turns into a child porn addiction. Um, so it really hits every part,
00:12:46.940
but to your point, if you're wealthy, if you have means, you have power, you know, you're
00:12:52.120
going to see something like a Harvey Weinstein or Jeffrey Epstein. And so absolutely people with
00:12:55.920
power and money, if they also have that sex addiction, they're going to have a much easier
00:13:00.300
time, uh, luring in and abusing women and children. I was, I was talking with a friend
00:13:05.800
the other day and they were talking a little bit about what we're addressing now. And, and I'm in
00:13:09.820
St. George, which is Southern Utah. A lot of people are familiar with it. And, uh, she was telling me
00:13:14.280
how prevalent it is here. I mean, St. George is a pretty spiritual, religious community. It's a pretty
00:13:20.200
small community, um, although it's growing, but she was saying because of how close we are to the
00:13:26.240
I-15 and how quickly it is to move North and South and wherever you want. A lot of people are coming
00:13:31.440
here and a lot of it is originating here in Southern Utah of all places. Well, this, this is
00:13:36.880
true. You know, I worked on the, uh, internet crimes against children task force of the attorney
00:13:40.520
general's office of Utah back when I was an agent. And I can tell you it's very active, a lot of kids
00:13:45.120
in Utah, a lot of vulnerability to the I-15 being a quarter for, for trafficking. Um, I can tell you
00:13:50.980
this, the, the internet crimes against children task force, they're going, they're going out every
00:13:54.740
week, multiple times a week, sometimes doing hits, doing busts, uh, child sex crimes. And I'll say
00:14:00.200
this, one of the finest law enforcement, um, institutions that I know of is St. George police
00:14:04.740
department. Uh, we work pretty close with them. Uh, some of their guys work as undercover operators
00:14:09.260
for us. So you guys are in good hands down there. That's good. That's good. Um, you, so do you still
00:14:17.560
go on, uh, on operations yourself? I know you have a large team. You've got a lot of volunteers. Uh, we have
00:14:22.640
some mutual friends. I won't say names cause I, I, I want to respect that privacy if it's important
00:14:27.440
to them, but we have some mutual friends who have been on missions and done some actual rescuing
00:14:32.680
and groundwork. Is this something that you still do personally? You know, I occasionally I, as the
00:14:38.100
years go on, I do less and less. We have, we have six regions throughout the world, including the
00:14:42.020
United States and they have their own teams. Um, I do have a team that I, maybe two or three times
00:14:46.680
a year. Like last year, I led a huge operation. That's going to be coming out in a docu-series
00:14:51.740
soon called the hidden war. It's a crazy operation. I led where we were helping kids in Ukraine
00:14:56.380
get out of the war zone and end up finding a human trafficking ring that led us through
00:15:00.060
Mexico and Ecuador. So I'll, I'll occasionally get involved, but I'll tell you as sound of
00:15:04.160
freedom's coming out and we have other documentaries on my undercover days are probably, uh, coming
00:15:08.680
to a screeching halt here. So. Yeah. I didn't think about that, but your name is going
00:15:12.600
to, or your face is going to be more and more recognizable. Plus I wonder about
00:15:16.600
uh, operations, especially in, I would say South America, you know, you're, you're a white
00:15:23.080
guy, blonde hair, blue eyes, fair skin, just like me. It's like, is that, is that an issue
00:15:28.440
or are these the guys who are actually coming down and soliciting these services? Services
00:15:32.520
is not the right word, but. Yeah. So one of the sad, a sad commentary for, for Western nations
00:15:38.680
is, uh, we are what the traffickers are looking to service. You know, that demand doesn't stay
00:15:44.060
wait for kids to come into the U S uh, we go out, you know, the United States has some
00:15:49.500
of the best anti, uh, sex tourism laws where we can actually hold Americans accountable.
00:15:55.900
If they have sex with a child overseas, they can hold them accountable as if they committed
00:15:59.020
that act in the U S so which, which, which speaks to the problem that it is. So yeah, Western
00:16:04.940
undercover operators tend to infiltrate a lot quicker only because we are what the traffickers are.
00:16:11.020
We're, we look like the demand, you know, we look like those who are kids in their countries.
00:16:16.140
Um, and so, you know, but I'll, I will say this when I do undercover work, even the last year or two,
00:16:20.940
um, I have undercover disguises. We have a Hollywood makeup artist that, you know, it'd be hard to
00:16:25.340
recognize me, uh, with, with the different, you know, I can show you some pictures offline, but, um,
00:16:30.300
but even that's getting a little scary for me just because my voice and there's, there's,
00:16:34.060
there's only so many disguises that I could come up with right before it's, it's time to,
00:16:38.140
to, to, to hang it up. So have you been in situations personally where somebody has either
00:16:44.700
recognized you or, you know, grown suspicious to the point where, Hey, like we're in a serious
00:16:50.220
situation right now? Nope, never, never happened. Never happened yet. We've been super careful and
00:16:55.740
haven't seen that yet, but I don't want to see it. So that's why I'm going to start making some
00:16:59.820
changes. Well, I mean, it puts everybody at risk, right? It puts you at risk, your team at risk,
00:17:03.940
the girls, the children, whoever it is, it puts all everybody at risk. Yeah. Um, you said something
00:17:10.580
about pornography is, do you see that as a reoccurring trend with getting into the world,
00:17:15.440
not just from a victim standpoint, but from these men who, and possibly women as well, who, who, uh,
00:17:22.680
perpetuate this, this problem in these crimes is pornography a gateway into it, so to speak.
00:17:28.600
Yeah, I would say absolutely. It is. It's not popular to say this, but the truth is,
00:17:33.400
you know, sex addiction is what creates the demand. People want sex. Now pornography has been shown.
00:17:40.920
You can, there's, there's an amazing organization, actually Utah based called fight the new drug.
00:17:45.860
And they, they approached it from a scientific, uh, position. What happens to the brain? What's the
00:17:51.340
chemical reaction going on when you look at porn? Well, the chemical reaction is very similar to
00:17:55.480
marijuana or drugs. It's not, it's not the drug or the, or the naked pictures. It's the dopamine hit
00:18:00.260
is the endorphin hit. And that becomes addictive. People want that and they need it. But just like
00:18:05.140
marijuana, you know, you only take so much before you become a little bit immune. The chemical reaction
00:18:10.980
is dying down. So you've got to jump into meth or something, you know, stronger. Well, the same can
00:18:15.940
be said about porn, adult pornography, the legal porn, you know, is, is, is kind of like marijuana
00:18:21.140
where it's like, Hey, it's, it's working for a while. Well now it's not working. So I need to jumpstart
00:18:25.100
my system. I need something to shock the system and boom, they start getting into, into children
00:18:29.720
or animals or some other crazy fetish. And again, it's, it's about the dopamine. It's about the,
00:18:34.880
the, the, it's about the chemical reaction they want. And thus, thus is, thus we have the reason
00:18:40.500
that justifies a number that's 2 million children currently in the commercial sex trade. I mean,
00:18:45.640
there has to be that kind of demand. And the reason for the demand is that it's sex addiction
00:18:50.640
that often is born of pornography. Yeah. And, and it's, you know, I'm always interested
00:18:56.880
in, or asking, I don't, I don't know what the right word is, but you have this, this concept
00:19:02.820
of feminism where these women will talk about women's empowerment, women's rights. And they
00:19:06.980
talk a lot about, and I think this is even more prevalent than it's ever been is this concept
00:19:10.500
of quote unquote, sex work is being good work or righteous work. I don't think it is, but
00:19:15.040
that's what they say a woman should be able to choose. And what they fail to realize is that
00:19:19.100
it's the objectification of women. It's not liberating. It's, it's captivating. It's,
00:19:27.180
it's something that's taking away freedom and opportunity and choices from women. And I'm just
00:19:32.060
wondering why that's getting so misconstrued and why people can't seem to think or acknowledge that
00:19:37.780
it leads to some of these really dangerous and destructive paths. Well, that's one of the messages I
00:19:43.600
want out there, you know, Amnesty International came out a few years ago and in favor of liberating
00:19:49.000
sex workers. And I'm very libertarian, very constitutionalist. And I would think people
00:19:53.840
should be free to do what they want so long as they're not hurting other people and especially
00:19:57.780
children. But what happens to your point, what happens when you, when you legalize the whole thing,
00:20:02.560
now you've, you've made legitimate human traffickers because now they can pose as pimps because that's
00:20:08.740
what they're pushing for. Not just legalizing sex, but, but actually legalizing the pimps.
00:20:14.140
That's Amnesty International and even New York state, Oregon state, they're pushing for the same
00:20:19.300
pimps should be businessmen. Well, that's horrifying because those pimps, if they can sell a child
00:20:25.240
for three times what they sell an adult for, now you've just shaken hands with them. They're paying
00:20:29.860
taxes. They have a little certification on their office window, but they'll never, they're never going
00:20:34.680
to show the compliance officers, the 12 kids they have in the, in the stable back in the backyard,
00:20:39.940
but those kids now have a market to play in a market to be abused in. Um, you know, that said,
00:20:45.960
I'm against legalizing the work of a pimp or, or, or a predatory, you know, a client. Um, but I would
00:20:53.680
never criminalize anything with a woman with, with, with the sex worker or prostitute. And luckily we're
00:20:58.160
seeing a change in that, that, that should not be criminalized. In my opinion, you don't know their
00:21:02.400
story to your point. This is not something, you know, you might find a handful that say,
00:21:06.740
I want to do this. Uh, in my experience, none of them want to do this. Very few of them want to do
00:21:12.100
this. And so to criminalize them is, is, is shameful because you don't know their past.
00:21:17.080
They might've been trafficked since they were 10 years old. Um, but it's a bad idea to create sex
00:21:21.340
markets in the, in the adult entertainment industry, because it only creates the sub-market where
00:21:26.560
children will be bought and sold. I hear what you're saying with regards to the pimps. I, I am a little,
00:21:31.600
I do question the idea of, of not criminalizing sex work itself for, for these women, uh, because
00:21:38.860
they may have a past. I don't know that the past excuses current behavior that is not conducive
00:21:45.040
to a healthy society. Uh, I'm trying to think of another example, but any crime really that you
00:21:51.740
can think of it, the, the past or, or her, her, his story doesn't excuse, doesn't excuse those
00:21:58.180
things. If that makes sense. Well, I, I come, I come at it from maybe a little different position
00:22:01.940
where, again, I'm very constitutionalist, very libertarian. And I were, I might think, I believe
00:22:07.580
it's morally appalling, but I don't think it's the government's business to, if, if, if an adult
00:22:12.200
wants to pay for sex, and this might sound outrageous to people, but if I'm, I'm against it,
00:22:19.920
Like, I don't feel it's the government's job to, to, to intervene there unless a third party
00:22:26.740
of, is being victimized directly by this word, you know? And, um, and that's where I find children
00:22:32.500
are being victimized because if you legalize that transaction, then the by-product is you're going
00:22:37.040
to have more transactions of children being hurt. Um, and so I just don't see if, if a woman's
00:22:43.840
telling herself, um, I think it's horrifying. I think she needs help. I'd like to provide resources
00:22:48.520
to help her. I don't think sending her to jail, I don't, I don't know who she hurt, but herself.
00:22:53.320
And so I don't think sending her to jail is, is the business of the government, but you know,
00:22:59.640
Man, let me step away from the conversation very quickly. I I'm a little hesitant in sharing
00:23:03.580
this today that our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council is open. I talked about it earlier,
00:23:08.200
uh, just in light of the seriousness of our discussion today with Tim, but I'm reminded of
00:23:13.100
the powerful good that men can do when we do band together towards a common objective.
00:23:17.920
And, or against a common enemy and too many men are going at it alone and they're suffering
00:23:23.940
because of it. And we're weaker when we're isolated, but when we band together, not only
00:23:28.640
do we give ourselves the opportunity for personal growth, but we also increase our ability to
00:23:33.440
do good and righteous work in the world. If we're feeding off of serving each other
00:23:38.200
and banding together, uh, like the type of, of work Tim and his team, uh, are engaged in.
00:23:43.540
So if you're interested in banding with us, or at least just learning more about what we're
00:23:46.640
doing and how we're helping each other and how we're trying to do good in the world and
00:23:50.200
spread this mission of masculinity, then head to order a man.com slash iron council. Again,
00:23:56.240
that's order a man.com slash iron council. We're only open for a very limited time. So if you're
00:24:00.880
interested, get on it quickly again, order a man.com slash iron council. Do that right after
00:24:06.340
the conversation for now, we'll get back to it, Tim. No, it's interesting. And I think what
00:24:11.380
you're referring to is unintended incentives, like you were talking about earlier is, is I
00:24:15.260
think, I think most of the laws that we enact or most of the rules and regulations, I would
00:24:19.360
say most of them are incorporated because whoever, you know, championed this, this, this law or
00:24:25.960
this regulation did so because they believed it was the right thing to do. Uh, but there are
00:24:32.200
so many unintended incentives and consequences that happen. Even if our intentions are pure and
00:24:39.600
right. That's right. That's right. What kind of backlash do you personally receive as you go
00:24:45.160
after companies or organizations like Amnesty International? And I'm sure there's a whole
00:24:49.280
laundry list of, of organizations that are, that are on your list and I'm sure you're on
00:24:53.520
their list. Uh, what type of backlash do you receive with, with these organizations?
00:24:58.260
Yeah. Yeah. Quite a bit. I mean, I never thought that the, the, the pursuit of liberating
00:25:05.400
children and rescuing them would be something that is becomes political or becomes a reason
00:25:10.460
to, to, to hate on groups like ours who are doing that work. Um, but unfortunately it is
00:25:16.040
like, it's the biggest difficulties we have isn't finding traffickers and children. Um, we
00:25:22.080
know what we're doing. So it's relatively easy for us to, to find that the harder battle for
00:25:26.420
me is fighting what the good guys, okay. The media that wants to, um, they want to, uh,
00:25:32.800
make the world believe that human trafficking isn't real because somehow it gets in their,
00:25:36.740
the way of their agenda to, for example, make the word pedophile into minor attractive persons.
00:25:42.900
They want to almost normalize and desensitize the world saying that it's okay. In fact,
00:25:47.860
it may even be healthy for a child to, to, to have orgasm by, by adults. I mean, this is making,
00:25:54.060
this is getting into mainstream culture in ways I can't even comprehend. I mean, I've been tracking
00:25:58.640
pedophile groups who've been making these arguments for quite some time, sexualized kids,
00:26:02.800
take God out of education. It gets in the way, um, get parents out of the way, you know, public,
00:26:07.760
public officials know best, um, teach kids about masturbation and, and, and show them naked pictures.
00:26:13.480
And all this is what the pedophiles have been pushing for, for decades, because it makes them
00:26:19.120
pray. Now we see half the country actually formulating policies and, and doing exactly what
00:26:25.880
pedophile has been asking them to do. And we're watching it happen for our eyes. I see what kids
00:26:29.980
are being given the material under, under, I used to be able to arrest people for providing the kind
00:26:35.720
of material that is given to children by public school officials. It's, that's the damned thing
00:26:40.500
I've ever seen or, or empowering children to make choices that affect themselves completely.
00:26:46.320
You know, to say a child can consent, consent to just doing things to their body that, you know,
00:26:52.900
a child can't consent to that. And this has nothing to do with the trans issue. Adults should do what
00:26:56.780
they want. I support adults if they want to be trans or whatever they want to do. But if you say
00:27:01.620
a 13 year old can consent to cutting off their genitalia, I'm telling you what's going to happen
00:27:05.800
next. And it's happening. You can't stop that child from also saying that I want to consent to sex with
00:27:10.940
a 50 year old, or I want to identify as a 30 year old. You can't, the minute you start empowering
00:27:16.300
children this way, you are victimizing them. And so the pedophiles are sitting back salivating at these
00:27:21.280
policies. And so our, the biggest fights we have now is in the cultural wars and the political wars
00:27:27.040
here in this country. And they want me to be discredited. So they'll attack me simply because I say, no,
00:27:33.160
we're not going to change the name pedophile to minor attracted persons. Well, Tim pedophile is so
00:27:37.580
degrading. Yes, it is. And that's supposed to be as it should be because it's the red flag. Don't
00:27:43.360
normalize this. So those are the bigger battles, the more difficult battles, believe it or not, than
00:27:46.980
actually rescuing kids from human traffickers. Do you think though, that the majority of,
00:27:52.320
let's say a school teacher, I mean, we've all heard stories. We see things in the news. Do you
00:27:56.460
think that these people are evil? And there is evil. I'm not going to dismiss that. There's evil,
00:28:00.820
evil people in the world. And you're more intimately familiar with that than probably most people walking
00:28:04.860
around on the planet. Or are they just delusional? Are they ignorant to the message that they're sharing
00:28:11.900
and how it's actually championing the cause of some of the things, disgusting, despicable things we're
00:28:16.240
talking about right now? I think, I think by and large, it's delusion. It's ignorance. It's trying
00:28:22.660
to be tolerant. You know, there's this weird culture going on that if you let your kid do this
00:28:28.100
to themselves, or if you accept, you know, the call them minor attracted persons, somehow you're
00:28:32.480
going to get more social media hits and views. And it's true. It's happening. So it's this weird
00:28:37.380
kind of, in the name of tolerance, I'm going to do something that feels right because people are
00:28:43.040
telling me it should feel right. But if you look in the weeds on it and get dirt, get into the dirt
00:28:46.960
into it, you're going to see you're hurting kids. And so part of this is just educating people, waking
00:28:51.540
them up to making them real. I'm not saying that this kind of godless side that is sexualizing our
00:28:58.320
kids and doing what the pedophiles want. I'm not saying they're talking at all. They're not. I think
00:29:03.200
they hate pedophiles. They just don't realize that they're peddling the same ideologies. And that's
00:29:08.300
what we need to wake them up to. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that assessment because I think
00:29:12.920
there's a lot of things that go around with regards to just saying, oh, these people are evil.
00:29:18.040
I'm like, well, hold on. Like, let's really about, I'm not opposed to thinking that, but let's really
00:29:22.760
figure out what it is because if it's evil, that's one way we need to address it. If it's delusion and
00:29:28.520
ignorance, that's another way. And so we ought to really call it for what it is, I would think.
00:29:32.200
Well, you said something about it's easy to find these individuals. I'm really curious about how
00:29:40.180
that works. I'm sure at this point, you have a pretty expansive network and informants and,
00:29:46.340
you know, undercover operators that probably give you a lot of leads into these things. But how are
00:29:51.720
you finding these individuals? And then what does the process look like from there? Because you can't
00:29:56.020
do everything. So you have to be selective on what you're going after. Correct. So, you know,
00:30:01.600
first and foremost, we make the relationship with law enforcement. We need that power, that
00:30:06.720
authority to actually make the arrests and do the extractions in a legal format. And so once we have
00:30:12.560
those pieces in place, then we work together how to infiltrate. Oftentimes it starts online. There's
00:30:18.800
tools, there's technology, there's even AI tools now that I can't get into the details, obviously,
00:30:24.420
because we don't want to expose our tactics that there's countermeasures for, but there's ways
00:30:28.720
to go in, including into the dark net, and pretty easily identify people who are making transactions
00:30:35.360
in the world of child sex. And then, you know, it's still very effective, just the cold, hard,
00:30:40.420
undercover work, informants going into bars, clubs, strip clubs, spas, and so forth. We get intel.
00:30:46.840
Again, a lot of intel originates on the dark net where it says, hey, go to this spa, ask for this
00:30:51.100
kind of massage, and a 12-year-old is going to come out. Well, we'll send our undercover operator in
00:30:55.600
there, and nine times out of 10, it's exactly what happens. But once we get that intel, we
00:31:00.480
immediately turn it over. We always are working under the jurisdiction of whatever authority that
00:31:04.580
we're in, so they can actually do something about it. And we turn these real operations into really
00:31:09.860
trainings to where we can start leaving, and the government we're working for can continue doing
00:31:16.680
these types of operations on their own. Do you have some of these authorities that ever resist
00:31:21.500
your efforts and your desire to serve and support what they're doing? Or is everybody in all the
00:31:28.000
departments fairly receptive and open to what you guys are doing at this point?
00:31:31.780
At this point, they're pretty receptive. It was hard in the beginning when we started in 2013-14
00:31:36.380
because human trafficking wasn't as known. Sometimes we're educating law enforcement,
00:31:41.960
especially in developing countries, on what it even is. And they don't even know or believe it's
00:31:45.720
even happening. But because there's been a more heightened awareness in the media, people are
00:31:51.680
more available to the thought and open to working with us. And so it's rare that we have a problem,
00:32:01.100
even with corruption, because we work closely usually with U.S. embassy assets, homeland security
00:32:06.520
investigations, where I came from and a lot of our operators came from. We work very closely with them
00:32:11.500
when we can. And they help us vet out and find the right authorities in these countries that are
00:32:16.280
trustworthy. There's been times that we have a documentary coming out called Operation Praying
00:32:20.840
Sage. It's named after Sage Robbins, the life of Tony Robbins, because she helped us with this
00:32:25.760
operation in a really unique way. But it's a story of a rescue operation we were conducting in Haiti
00:32:31.600
of 10 girls who had been lured in there and being trafficked. And the Haitians turned on us. The cops
00:32:36.200
turned on us in the middle of the operation. It got paid off by the traffickers.
00:32:39.920
And yet we still managed to get the girls out into safety and rescue them. But we filmed the whole
00:32:45.420
thing. And so, I mean, there's times when they turn on us. We have contingency plans in place
00:32:50.620
in case that were to happen. What would cause you to not pursue a lead or something along those lines
00:33:00.060
where you're thinking, you know, we can't pursue that. We can't dedicate resources to this. Or maybe
00:33:05.140
it's the intel's not where we need it to be. What would cause that?
00:33:07.920
I mean, the only thing I think that would cause that is if we believe the child wasn't there
00:33:12.160
anymore. We are promised to the public. We say it and we believe it and we mean it that we will
00:33:18.700
go anywhere. We will go to any... And the Haiti operation proves it. People say all the time,
00:33:22.660
don't work in Haiti. They could turn on you. Okay, well, so that girl doesn't deserve to have any hope?
00:33:27.440
No. If we have the intel and it's solid, we're going to go and we'll figure it out. We will have
00:33:32.040
contingencies A through C and we will pray our guts out and expect miracles to happen if everything
00:33:38.160
falls through because, you know, God's children are not for sale as Jim Caviezel so powerfully says
00:33:43.220
in the movie Sound of Freedom. And so, we will pursue it. We'll pursue it unless we believe
00:33:48.240
that the kid's not no longer there. If the kid's there, we'll find a way.
00:33:52.420
I'm glad also that you're talking about AI because, you know, every once in a while,
00:33:57.000
I have some bot or whatever, you know, try to clone my Instagram account and I get people who
00:34:02.040
message me and I'm grateful they do. But they'll show me occasionally the thread of the conversations
00:34:07.060
and these bots are getting really, really good. It's very personal. It sounds a lot like me.
00:34:14.980
It's talking about conversations that I would have based on what my business model is.
00:34:19.220
And I just, I imagine that we are just opening an entire can of worms. It used to be that if it
00:34:25.280
was somebody trying to solicit services or trick a young girl or young boy into meeting them somewhere
00:34:30.900
that it had to be a person. And now that's just leveraged and it's just happening to the nth degree.
00:34:36.560
That's right. And not only is this going to and is affecting our fight because kids are going to
00:34:41.220
get lured at a much faster rate, but yeah, businesses everywhere, e-businesses everywhere can be
00:34:45.840
under threat. Cause I mean, you're there, there may come a time where we can't even trust
00:34:50.380
buying anything online because we don't really know definitively who it is. Yeah. Scary, scary times.
00:34:57.600
Tell me about, I know we're a little pressed for time and you've got a busy, a busy schedule because
00:35:01.680
of the, of the release and everything that you want to do. But tell me a little bit about the,
00:35:05.080
the movie that's coming out, Sound of Freedom and what it's about and then how we can get involved
00:35:11.260
in, in various different ways. So Sound of Freedom is a feature film starring Jim Caviezel,
00:35:16.460
Mary Cervino. And it tells the story of, of me and my family and, and, and what we were dealing
00:35:23.960
with back in 2013, when we came across an operation in Haiti that are in, well, actually Haiti and
00:35:30.980
Columbia, but this one's focused on Columbia. And we were, we had to make a decision. I was told by
00:35:37.340
the U S government, I had to come home. I had no jurisdiction or authority to be there,
00:35:41.240
but I had also committed to the point that if I left the op wouldn't have happened.
00:35:46.240
So it was a tough place to be. And, and it was the story of how we decided to do something crazy
00:35:50.940
and in faith and just quit our job just so we could do the operation. And it actually led to,
00:35:57.340
and turned into the biggest rescue operation that may be recorded in history that we know of
00:36:01.340
over 120, uh, girls were rescued and it's the story of how the, how it all took place. Um, it's,
00:36:08.480
it's kind of an action film, you know, it's, it's really, um, it's kind of a white knuckle kind of
00:36:12.920
thing. You know, we're looking for these kids and it's our, it's going undercover and doing everything
00:36:17.280
and anything we could create, we think up to get these kids rescued.
00:36:22.240
Yeah. Well, I've seen, I've, I've watched the trailer, your team sent over the screener. So I've seen
00:36:26.840
a part of it. I haven't seen the whole thing, but really, really powerful.
00:36:30.040
Um, you know, one thing I just, I have to say as we wind this down is I really appreciate you and
00:36:35.140
your work. It's, I love having conversations like this because so many of us as men recognize
00:36:40.000
problems. It's really easy to recognize problems. We see it, we're familiar with it, but relative to
00:36:46.560
that few of us take action towards those things, especially when it puts you and your family and
00:36:51.440
your loved ones at personal risk. And I just want to tell you, I commend you for that. And I appreciate
00:36:56.960
you leading from the front in, in that way. It's such important work. And the fact that you're
00:37:00.460
following through on it means a lot. And it sets a great example.
00:37:03.420
Well, thank you because some, most media outlets in the world don't want to talk about this.
00:37:08.860
So the fact that you were even willing to have this conversation and introduce your community
00:37:12.480
to this dark thing, I appreciate it because this is the solution. Media will be the solution.
00:37:17.360
And we want everybody to buy tickets to sound of freedom angel studios, who brought you the chosen,
00:37:22.400
uh, they are the ones, uh, distributing amazing group. Um, I'll tell you this. I just got word in
00:37:27.780
that we have our, our, our competition is Indiana Jones. They both come out at the same time. We have
00:37:33.060
doubled already ticket sales over Indiana Jones today, right? Yeah. So this is good. Cause there's
00:37:39.080
a silent majority that's people of light are saying, no, we want to see this. So we're grateful
00:37:43.320
for that. Go to, um, angel.com, go to angel.com and buy your tickets. Um, people can also pay it
00:37:48.900
for it. I have a program where it's like, look, everybody, we want 2 million butts in seats
00:37:52.760
on July 4th weekend to represent the 2 million children in the commercial sex trade. And how
00:37:57.620
angel studios is doing this is not only can you buy a ticket for your family and yourself,
00:38:01.340
but you can buy 10 tickets or 50 tickets for people who otherwise won't be able to go and
00:38:05.660
they can distribute those tickets nationwide. And so if you can, if people can't afford it,
00:38:09.900
they can still go see the film, uh, again, July 4th, sound of freedom, angel.com.
00:38:14.860
Well, uh, we'll sync everything up. And then you also just to put a plugin for
00:38:18.420
operation underground railroad, uh, just tell the guys a little bit briefly about that and
00:38:22.260
where they can go. And that, I think they can help through that as well. Donations or
00:38:25.620
get involved in other ways. That'd be great. Yeah. Oh, you are rescue.org is the name of
00:38:29.300
the foundation. The other foundation that I run, uh, that I equally love is called the
00:38:33.540
Nazarene fund founded by Glenn Beck in 2014. And we do similar work, but it's, it's a little
00:38:38.240
more in some ways, next level and, uh, working on persecuted Christians and helping them get
00:38:44.000
out and other religious minorities and in the middle East Africa, Oregon harvesting
00:38:47.900
cases. So, um, either one of those, oh, you are rescue.org or the Nazarene fund.org.
00:38:54.100
So thank you so much. And we'll sync it all up. I appreciate you. I know you're a busy man.
00:38:58.200
Thanks for carving out some time and we'll get this all loaded for the guys and they can know where to
00:39:01.360
go. Thank you. Appreciate you. Thank you. All right, gentlemen, there you go. That one. Oh my
00:39:07.840
goodness. That just, it's crazy to hear these stories. I can't believe that this is happening
00:39:12.880
at all, let alone happening right under our noses in 2023. It doesn't seem like it should,
00:39:18.220
but we don't operate from a place of delusion. We operate from a place of reality and this is
00:39:22.980
what's happening. So, uh, great ways to support Tim are to go check out operation underground
00:39:27.400
railroad, uh, check out everything that he's doing. Connect with him on Instagram, share this
00:39:32.040
podcast, take a screenshot, share this with people who you need to know, because the more we can bring
00:39:35.740
these types of conversations as difficult as they are to light, the more we can do good. Um, also make
00:39:41.800
sure to pick up or, or buy a ticket to, uh, the, the new feature film sound of freedom or buy 10 or
00:39:47.480
a hundred tickets to support their work. Whatever we can do to support Tim and operation underground
00:39:52.080
railroad is going to do a lot of good in the world. So I would appreciate that. Uh, outside of that
00:39:58.100
again, iron councils open order of man.com slash iron council. You can check that out, but for now,
00:40:02.840
you've got your marching orders, share tag, Tim tag, myself, iron council operation, underground
00:40:07.920
railroad, sound of freedom movie. You guys know what to do. Appreciate you all. Let's get in this
00:40:12.400
fight. Let's get in this battle and keep doing good. All right, guys, we'll be back tomorrow for
00:40:17.140
our ask me anything until then go out there, take action, become the man you are meant to be.
00:40:22.500
Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life
00:40:26.940
and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.