Order of Man - TIM BALLARD ｜ Eradicating Child Sex Trafficking

00:00:00.000 Child sex trafficking literally permeates every corner of the globe. It's despicable,

00:00:04.860 it's nasty, and it's a growing trend. Even in 2023, where most men recognize problems in this

00:00:11.720 world, few are willing to put their own careers and lives on the line to create and come up with

00:00:17.100 solutions. My guest today is built different. His name is Tim Ballard, and he is the founder

00:00:21.400 of Operation Underground Railroad, which exists to rescue children from dangerous and despicable

00:00:27.820 sex rings. Today, we talk about what a truly compassionate border policy would look like,

00:00:33.340 the hyper-sexualization of the world and the degeneracy it leads to, how unintended policy

00:00:38.720 incentives often make problems worse, why evil lurks behind the concept of tolerance,

00:00:45.160 and also his latest film uncovering the underground child sex trade called Sound of Freedom.

00:00:50.740 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly charge

00:00:55.740 your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You

00:01:01.300 are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This

00:01:07.560 is who you are. This is who you will become. At the end of the day, and after all is said

00:01:12.580 and done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name

00:01:17.180 is Ryan Mickler. I'm your host and the founder of the Order of Men podcast and movement. Welcome

00:01:21.520 here today. I've got a really, really important discussion with somebody that has been on the

00:01:26.420 podcast before and somebody I think so highly of because he's doing good work in the world to rescue

00:01:32.240 people, to serve people, and is living the epitome, I believe, of what it means to be a man, to protect,

00:01:39.980 to provide, to preside. He's leading that charge with Operation Underground Railroad. I'm going to get

00:01:46.460 into that in just a minute. I want to mention, first, I just want to thank you for joining with

00:01:50.640 us and more importantly, for implementing the information that we share and talk about. If all

00:01:54.920 we do is consume and we don't ever go out and put this stuff into practice, we might as well not

00:01:59.280 consume the information that's here. So if you're new, we've got great guests like Tim on today.

00:02:03.840 Other Tims is Tim Kennedy we've had on, Tim Tebow we've had on. We've had guys like David Goggins and

00:02:09.000 Jocko Willink and Matthew McConaughey and Terry Crews and the lineup of men that join us on this

00:02:14.900 podcast is a testament to the conversations we're having and the fact that we as men collectively

00:02:19.820 want to improve. We want to get better and we want the information and resources to do it. So

00:02:24.320 that's my job to give that to you. Before we get into the conversation, also just want to mention

00:02:29.380 that our exclusive brotherhood, the Iron Council, is open for enrollment for a very limited time just

00:02:34.940 till the end of this month. So I believe this podcast comes out on the 20th, I believe, of June.

00:02:41.480 We're going to be open until the end of this month. So check it out. If you're interested,

00:02:46.400 it's a brotherhood of all like-minded men working together towards common goals, objectives,

00:02:50.640 and holding each other accountable to do so. You can check that out at orderofman.com

00:02:55.040 slash Iron Council. Guys, with that said, let me introduce you again to a repeat guest

00:02:59.740 and a man who's just doing incredible things in the service of those who cannot save themselves.

00:03:06.380 His name is Tim Ballard. He's the founder and CEO of Operation Underground Railroad,

00:03:10.100 which I mentioned. They rescue children from sex trafficking rings. He also spent over a decade

00:03:16.120 as a special agent for the Department of Homeland Security, which really just gave him some valuable

00:03:20.980 insight and intel and the ability to target these sex rings and do something about them.

00:03:26.840 He's been instrumental in developing software and internet technology and investigations to

00:03:31.400 infiltrate file share networks, which target child pornography exchanges. And he's got a new feature

00:03:38.280 movie highlighting his life's work and the good he's doing. And that's titled Sound of Freedom.

00:03:43.600 Enjoy this one, guys. And more importantly, do something about his mission.

00:03:48.860 Tim, what's up, man? Great to see you again. I was looking at it. It's been like five or six years

00:03:52.920 now since we talked last. I know. I can't believe it, man. Thanks for having me on.

00:03:56.700 Yeah, you bet. I'm still, I think I said this the last time we talked, I'm still just

00:04:01.040 dumbfounded that sex trafficking, especially for children is such a huge issue. I cannot believe

00:04:07.960 it's so prevalent today in, you know, 2023. It just seems wild to me.

00:04:14.080 It's crazy that it's, it's growing even more so right now. It's just, it's still, it's still the

00:04:18.120 fastest growing criminal enterprise in the world. I mean, last I looked, it's now rivaling the drug

00:04:22.000 trade, you know, it's because what, what these traffickers are finding is, look, I can sell it back

00:04:26.200 at cocaine once. I can sell a child 10 to 20 times over a 24 hour period. So it's extremely

00:04:31.500 lucrative. And so long as the United States, we are the, we are the number one demand. And so long

00:04:36.760 as we continue sexualizing the world and pornifying the world, sexualizing children, well, that demand 0.95

00:04:41.900 is just going to keep increasing and the traffickers are going to continue to do their, their dirty work 0.98

00:04:45.240 on kids. So. So you, you said that the United States is, is the number one consumer. Am I

00:04:51.540 understanding you correctly? Yeah. The United States almost every year is the number one or two

00:04:55.960 consumer of child exploitation material. And, and also over the last two or three years,

00:05:01.720 state department has even admitted that the United States is in the top three countries

00:05:05.880 for, for destination countries, for human trafficking, which makes sense. I mean, it's just

00:05:09.960 economics. You got the demand is here. The people, the pedophiles are congregated here. And so

00:05:17.140 traffickers will get kids to them, which, you know, look at the Southern border, right? 85,000

00:05:22.080 unaccompanied minors, thousands under five years old show up at the port of entry and

00:05:26.880 the release into the United States with no background checks. Well, there you go. You,

00:05:31.160 you, you know, what's happening here. This is so easy. Uh, kids are being exploited. They,

00:05:35.700 they enter the U S nameless identity less, and they're, they're going to be victims their entire

00:05:40.340 life. Thank you. Thanks to this horrific policy on the border.

00:05:43.780 I, I'm glad you said that because that is one of the questions, you know, I think there tends

00:05:48.140 to be a bleeding heart for opening up the borders. And, and, and I think there's a lot of people who

00:05:52.820 actually believe, um, that, that it's, that's helpful. Uh, I don't think they're, they're any

00:05:59.900 sort of, um, ill intent with some of those thoughts, but what often gets overlooked is the natural

00:06:05.560 consequence of having open border policies. Yeah, you're exactly right. People think I'm being

00:06:10.960 kind. I'm letting people in. No, you're not. You just don't understand this. The only compassionate

00:06:15.780 policy, especially if you care about women and children are being abused is to enforce

00:06:20.620 the border. And the reason is, is that human traffickers are making about, according to one

00:06:25.740 report, $14 million a day. And, you know, I, I was 10 years as a, as a special agent undercover

00:06:32.360 operator on the Southern border. And it was not a partisan issue. It wasn't controversial.

00:06:36.940 The more of the wall we built, the more enforcement we did, the more kids we rescued,

00:06:40.880 because it's the last chance kids are being funneled into the U S it's the last chance to catch

00:06:45.540 them to catch the bad guys and rescue the kids. You want those kids being funneled through a port

00:06:49.600 of entry where experts with guns and who are the good guys are taking them out. So open borders

00:06:56.660 facilitate. Once you understand the economics of pedophilia, they're facilitating the trafficking

00:07:02.240 of children. Believe me, if you, if you talk to any of those kids who are being abused right now in

00:07:06.340 New York city or LA, they're going to say this wish to God, there had been a wall when I got brought

00:07:11.640 in that. I had my last chance to scream out to a, to a customs and border protection official

00:07:16.300 and have my life rescued. I've been in the port of entry. I've seen it. I've seen the rescues happen

00:07:21.240 there. I've been part of them. And so it's, it's devastating what's happened and we need to change

00:07:25.180 the, the, the, the argument by telling the truth. The only compassionate policy is border enforcement.

00:07:32.260 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, obviously I can see why that's the case. If it wasn't happening here though,

00:07:38.160 and I'm, I'm just trying to look at it from all angles. You know, obviously we want to police

00:07:43.460 ourself. We want to police this country. We want to, you know, take care of what's going on within

00:07:46.920 our own, our own neighborhoods and backyards. If it wasn't happening here, it seems like it would

00:07:51.040 just, it would happen somewhere else. It's not an excuse not to deal with it here, but it would

00:07:54.960 just happen in other places. That's right. And, and, and that's why, you know, at our foundation,

00:08:00.420 I mean, we are trying to, we're worldwide. We're currently we've worked in 30 countries. We're in all

00:08:05.180 states in the U S and we need a groundwork to be in every state because our job is to consult,

00:08:09.760 empower, train, and work with law enforcement and aftercare services throughout the world to make

00:08:14.240 sure they're doing everything they can to rescue the children in their regions.

00:08:18.580 Are these, so these, I'm assuming most of them are, are underage girls. I imagine is, is the case 1.00

00:08:24.420 largely. Where are these girls coming from? Are these, are these girls that are, that are being taken?

00:08:31.340 Are these girls that are, you know, in some sort of foster orphan care? I don't really know where

00:08:37.120 this is, where it starts, I guess I would say. Well, it's a great question. And the answer is

00:08:41.020 human trafficking has different faces in different places. So like in the U S system, you're going to

00:08:46.720 see a lot of foster kids who don't have a lot of supervision in their lives. They end up getting

00:08:51.140 they're, they're, they're like sitting ducks often for traffickers to kind of find their

00:08:55.940 vulnerabilities, exploit them and bring them in thinking they're going to be taken care of.

00:08:59.560 Um, if you look at the kids coming in from the, from the Southern border and coming into the U S,

00:09:03.360 these are largely kids who've been kidnapped in Central America, that it's pretty easy to do 0.91

00:09:07.920 that in some countries, little recourse, um, law enforcement's not where it needs to be. So it's,

00:09:12.220 they take these kids, um, and how, thanks to our policies, our policies are incentivizing our policies

00:09:17.920 are the wind at the back of these traffickers. Cause what they do is they, they know our policies and

00:09:21.920 they know that if they just put a safety pin in a, and a little note that says sponsor is,

00:09:26.440 you know, George Smith, here's his phone number, New York city, um, the customs and border officials

00:09:31.260 and the health and human services, they by policy have to call that number and use our tax dollars

00:09:37.880 to send that kid to George Smith with no background check, no DNA analysis off they go. So in the case

00:09:44.460 of the Southern border, that's what's happening there. Um, if you go, if you look at our, our offices

00:09:49.340 in Asia, they, they, they go to impoverished, um, communities and promise them this, that, and the

00:09:54.640 other thing and a job and come on down to the city and then boom, those kids disappear. And mom and dad have

00:10:00.060 no idea where to go again, no recourse, uh, because who's going to listen to an impoverished villager

00:10:05.520 who says my, my child's been taken. Well, you let your child go. It's, it's, it's usually a lure. It's not

00:10:10.660 often the hard, cold kidnapping within the white van coming. That's not generally how it happens. Like the vast

00:10:17.040 majority of cases are, are deception, the lure. That's how they, that's how they get them.

00:10:21.880 I'm sure there's a lot of, uh, grooming that takes place as well. Maybe it's somebody that,

00:10:26.040 you know, that, um, gradually introduces you to, you know, this, this world or this environment

00:10:31.280 or behavior. And then before you know it, you're down this rabbit hole and never to see your,

00:10:35.440 your son or daughter again. I mean, geez. Exactly. Right. In fact, the movie Sound of Freedom

00:10:39.520 that's coming out is based on a true story where that's exactly the, what they used, uh, Miss Cartagena, 1.00

00:10:44.280 Kelly Juarez in the film, um, real person who was arrested and actually heard, I just testified in

00:10:49.720 her trial just a few months ago. Um, cause I was the undercover operator leading on that op, but

00:10:54.400 she was a person who was famous, famous in the community. She was Miss Cartagena. She's in music

00:10:59.620 videos and she had a modeling school and she'd give scholarships. In fact, she won Miss Cartagena

00:11:04.000 on the platform that she was going to help impoverished kids of, of, of Columbia and in the Cartagena

00:11:09.340 region. And she was giving scholarships to these kids. Well, these kids would come and be,

00:11:13.240 they want to be rich and famous like her. Well, well, she eventually desensitizes them 1.00

00:11:16.660 with, they, what do they do? They use drugs, pornography, and pretty soon say, look, part

00:11:20.540 of this deal is that you, you have sex with these Americans who come down as part of being 0.99

00:11:24.200 famous and boom, these kids are gone. They're gone. And, and so, yeah, it's, it's, that's 0.99

00:11:28.640 sometimes, like you said, it's a slow lure. Um, and this happens online in the U S right.

00:11:33.660 These guys go online, find our kids, pretend to be the same age. It's really some 50 year

00:11:38.120 old pedophile, but pretending to be a 13 year old, you know, you know, the star quarterback

00:11:42.340 in the next County over talking to this girl and slowly luring them, slowly getting them 0.95

00:11:47.180 to trust them. And then they show up in a mall and boom, they're gone.

00:11:50.680 Hmm. Is this a more prevalent? You know, we hear stories about, you know, Hollywood and

00:11:55.500 elites and obviously there's, you know, Epstein and these other, these other actors, uh, is

00:12:02.680 this more prevalent in, in the Hollywood and elite circle because of their access to wealth

00:12:07.960 and people not saying no. And the, the boundaries are, are tested and often not even there at

00:12:15.340 all. Like, do you see that?

00:12:17.620 Yeah. So I'll, I'll say this. It's one of the most frustrating things in, in operations and

00:12:21.660 investigating these crimes because there really is no easy profile. We've arrested, you know,

00:12:27.300 clergymen we've arrested, uh, enforcement officers, right. Um, this, this, this, in my, in my

00:12:33.860 cases, I've included those in educators. And so it's, it's very difficult because it really

00:12:38.260 is something that is, if someone's a sex addict and they start wanting that because they have 0.68

00:12:42.960 a porn addiction that turns into a child porn addiction. Um, so it really hits every part, 0.90

00:12:46.940 but to your point, if you're wealthy, if you have means, you have power, you know, you're

00:12:52.120 going to see something like a Harvey Weinstein or Jeffrey Epstein. And so absolutely people with

00:12:55.920 power and money, if they also have that sex addiction, they're going to have a much easier 0.76

00:13:00.300 time, uh, luring in and abusing women and children. I was, I was talking with a friend 0.57

00:13:05.800 the other day and they were talking a little bit about what we're addressing now. And, and I'm in

00:13:09.820 St. George, which is Southern Utah. A lot of people are familiar with it. And, uh, she was telling me

00:13:14.280 how prevalent it is here. I mean, St. George is a pretty spiritual, religious community. It's a pretty

00:13:20.200 small community, um, although it's growing, but she was saying because of how close we are to the

00:13:26.240 I-15 and how quickly it is to move North and South and wherever you want. A lot of people are coming

00:13:31.440 here and a lot of it is originating here in Southern Utah of all places. Well, this, this is

00:13:36.880 true. You know, I worked on the, uh, internet crimes against children task force of the attorney

00:13:40.520 general's office of Utah back when I was an agent. And I can tell you it's very active, a lot of kids

00:13:45.120 in Utah, a lot of vulnerability to the I-15 being a quarter for, for trafficking. Um, I can tell you

00:13:50.980 this, the, the internet crimes against children task force, they're going, they're going out every

00:13:54.740 week, multiple times a week, sometimes doing hits, doing busts, uh, child sex crimes. And I'll say

00:14:00.200 this, one of the finest law enforcement, um, institutions that I know of is St. George police

00:14:04.740 department. Uh, we work pretty close with them. Uh, some of their guys work as undercover operators

00:14:09.260 for us. So you guys are in good hands down there. That's good. That's good. Um, you, so do you still

00:14:17.560 go on, uh, on operations yourself? I know you have a large team. You've got a lot of volunteers. Uh, we have

00:14:22.640 some mutual friends. I won't say names cause I, I, I want to respect that privacy if it's important

00:14:27.440 to them, but we have some mutual friends who have been on missions and done some actual rescuing

00:14:32.680 and groundwork. Is this something that you still do personally? You know, I occasionally I, as the

00:14:38.100 years go on, I do less and less. We have, we have six regions throughout the world, including the

00:14:42.020 United States and they have their own teams. Um, I do have a team that I, maybe two or three times

00:14:46.680 a year. Like last year, I led a huge operation. That's going to be coming out in a docu-series

00:14:51.740 soon called the hidden war. It's a crazy operation. I led where we were helping kids in Ukraine

00:14:56.380 get out of the war zone and end up finding a human trafficking ring that led us through

00:15:00.060 Mexico and Ecuador. So I'll, I'll occasionally get involved, but I'll tell you as sound of

00:15:04.160 freedom's coming out and we have other documentaries on my undercover days are probably, uh, coming

00:15:08.680 to a screeching halt here. So. Yeah. I didn't think about that, but your name is going

00:15:12.600 to, or your face is going to be more and more recognizable. Plus I wonder about

00:15:16.600 uh, operations, especially in, I would say South America, you know, you're, you're a white 1.00

00:15:23.080 guy, blonde hair, blue eyes, fair skin, just like me. It's like, is that, is that an issue

00:15:28.440 or are these the guys who are actually coming down and soliciting these services? Services

00:15:32.520 is not the right word, but. Yeah. So one of the sad, a sad commentary for, for Western nations

00:15:38.680 is, uh, we are what the traffickers are looking to service. You know, that demand doesn't stay

00:15:44.060 wait for kids to come into the U S uh, we go out, you know, the United States has some

00:15:49.500 of the best anti, uh, sex tourism laws where we can actually hold Americans accountable.

00:15:55.900 If they have sex with a child overseas, they can hold them accountable as if they committed

00:15:59.020 that act in the U S so which, which, which speaks to the problem that it is. So yeah, Western

00:16:04.940 undercover operators tend to infiltrate a lot quicker only because we are what the traffickers are.

00:16:11.020 We're, we look like the demand, you know, we look like those who are kids in their countries.

00:16:16.140 Um, and so, you know, but I'll, I will say this when I do undercover work, even the last year or two,

00:16:20.940 um, I have undercover disguises. We have a Hollywood makeup artist that, you know, it'd be hard to

00:16:25.340 recognize me, uh, with, with the different, you know, I can show you some pictures offline, but, um,

00:16:30.300 but even that's getting a little scary for me just because my voice and there's, there's,

00:16:34.060 there's only so many disguises that I could come up with right before it's, it's time to,

00:16:38.140 to, to, to hang it up. So have you been in situations personally where somebody has either

00:16:44.700 recognized you or, you know, grown suspicious to the point where, Hey, like we're in a serious

00:16:50.220 situation right now? Nope, never, never happened. Never happened yet. We've been super careful and

00:16:55.740 haven't seen that yet, but I don't want to see it. So that's why I'm going to start making some

00:16:59.820 changes. Well, I mean, it puts everybody at risk, right? It puts you at risk, your team at risk,

00:17:03.940 the girls, the children, whoever it is, it puts all everybody at risk. Yeah. Um, you said something

00:17:10.580 about pornography is, do you see that as a reoccurring trend with getting into the world,

00:17:15.440 not just from a victim standpoint, but from these men who, and possibly women as well, who, who, uh,

00:17:22.680 perpetuate this, this problem in these crimes is pornography a gateway into it, so to speak.

00:17:28.600 Yeah, I would say absolutely. It is. It's not popular to say this, but the truth is,

00:17:33.400 you know, sex addiction is what creates the demand. People want sex. Now pornography has been shown.

00:17:40.920 You can, there's, there's an amazing organization, actually Utah based called fight the new drug.

00:17:45.860 And they, they approached it from a scientific, uh, position. What happens to the brain? What's the

00:17:51.340 chemical reaction going on when you look at porn? Well, the chemical reaction is very similar to

00:17:55.480 marijuana or drugs. It's not, it's not the drug or the, or the naked pictures. It's the dopamine hit

00:18:00.260 is the endorphin hit. And that becomes addictive. People want that and they need it. But just like

00:18:05.140 marijuana, you know, you only take so much before you become a little bit immune. The chemical reaction

00:18:10.980 is dying down. So you've got to jump into meth or something, you know, stronger. Well, the same can

00:18:15.940 be said about porn, adult pornography, the legal porn, you know, is, is, is kind of like marijuana

00:18:21.140 where it's like, Hey, it's, it's working for a while. Well now it's not working. So I need to jumpstart

00:18:25.100 my system. I need something to shock the system and boom, they start getting into, into children

00:18:29.720 or animals or some other crazy fetish. And again, it's, it's about the dopamine. It's about the,

00:18:34.880 the, the, it's about the chemical reaction they want. And thus, thus is, thus we have the reason

00:18:40.500 that justifies a number that's 2 million children currently in the commercial sex trade. I mean,

00:18:45.640 there has to be that kind of demand. And the reason for the demand is that it's sex addiction

00:18:50.640 that often is born of pornography. Yeah. And, and it's, you know, I'm always interested

00:18:56.880 in, or asking, I don't, I don't know what the right word is, but you have this, this concept

00:19:02.820 of feminism where these women will talk about women's empowerment, women's rights. And they 1.00

00:19:06.980 talk a lot about, and I think this is even more prevalent than it's ever been is this concept

00:19:10.500 of quote unquote, sex work is being good work or righteous work. I don't think it is, but

00:19:15.040 that's what they say a woman should be able to choose. And what they fail to realize is that

00:19:19.100 it's the objectification of women. It's not liberating. It's, it's captivating. It's, 0.94

00:19:27.180 it's something that's taking away freedom and opportunity and choices from women. And I'm just 1.00

00:19:32.060 wondering why that's getting so misconstrued and why people can't seem to think or acknowledge that

00:19:37.780 it leads to some of these really dangerous and destructive paths. Well, that's one of the messages I

00:19:43.600 want out there, you know, Amnesty International came out a few years ago and in favor of liberating

00:19:49.000 sex workers. And I'm very libertarian, very constitutionalist. And I would think people

00:19:53.840 should be free to do what they want so long as they're not hurting other people and especially

00:19:57.780 children. But what happens to your point, what happens when you, when you legalize the whole thing,

00:20:02.560 now you've, you've made legitimate human traffickers because now they can pose as pimps because that's

00:20:08.740 what they're pushing for. Not just legalizing sex, but, but actually legalizing the pimps.

00:20:14.140 That's Amnesty International and even New York state, Oregon state, they're pushing for the same

00:20:19.300 pimps should be businessmen. Well, that's horrifying because those pimps, if they can sell a child

00:20:25.240 for three times what they sell an adult for, now you've just shaken hands with them. They're paying

00:20:29.860 taxes. They have a little certification on their office window, but they'll never, they're never going

00:20:34.680 to show the compliance officers, the 12 kids they have in the, in the stable back in the backyard,

00:20:39.940 but those kids now have a market to play in a market to be abused in. Um, you know, that said, 0.73

00:20:45.960 I'm against legalizing the work of a pimp or, or, or a predatory, you know, a client. Um, but I would

00:20:53.680 never criminalize anything with a woman with, with, with the sex worker or prostitute. And luckily we're

00:20:58.160 seeing a change in that, that, that should not be criminalized. In my opinion, you don't know their

00:21:02.400 story to your point. This is not something, you know, you might find a handful that say,

00:21:06.740 I want to do this. Uh, in my experience, none of them want to do this. Very few of them want to do

00:21:12.100 this. And so to criminalize them is, is, is shameful because you don't know their past.

00:21:17.080 They might've been trafficked since they were 10 years old. Um, but it's a bad idea to create sex 0.99

00:21:21.340 markets in the, in the adult entertainment industry, because it only creates the sub-market where

00:21:26.560 children will be bought and sold. I hear what you're saying with regards to the pimps. I, I am a little,

00:21:31.600 I do question the idea of, of not criminalizing sex work itself for, for these women, uh, because

00:21:38.860 they may have a past. I don't know that the past excuses current behavior that is not conducive

00:21:45.040 to a healthy society. Uh, I'm trying to think of another example, but any crime really that you

00:21:51.740 can think of it, the, the past or, or her, her, his story doesn't excuse, doesn't excuse those

00:21:58.180 things. If that makes sense. Well, I, I come, I come at it from maybe a little different position

00:22:01.940 where, again, I'm very constitutionalist, very libertarian. And I were, I might think, I believe

00:22:07.580 it's morally appalling, but I don't think it's the government's business to, if, if, if an adult

00:22:12.200 wants to pay for sex, and this might sound outrageous to people, but if I'm, I'm against it,

00:22:17.960 but if an adult, you're against it, sure.

00:22:19.920 Like, I don't feel it's the government's job to, to, to intervene there unless a third party

00:22:26.740 of, is being victimized directly by this word, you know? And, um, and that's where I find children

00:22:32.500 are being victimized because if you legalize that transaction, then the by-product is you're going

00:22:37.040 to have more transactions of children being hurt. Um, and so I just don't see if, if a woman's 1.00

00:22:43.840 telling herself, um, I think it's horrifying. I think she needs help. I'd like to provide resources

00:22:48.520 to help her. I don't think sending her to jail, I don't, I don't know who she hurt, but herself. 0.98

00:22:53.320 And so I don't think sending her to jail is, is the business of the government, but you know,

00:22:57.420 that's, that's the right.

00:22:59.640 Man, let me step away from the conversation very quickly. I I'm a little hesitant in sharing

00:23:03.580 this today that our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council is open. I talked about it earlier,

00:23:08.200 uh, just in light of the seriousness of our discussion today with Tim, but I'm reminded of

00:23:13.100 the powerful good that men can do when we do band together towards a common objective.

00:23:17.920 And, or against a common enemy and too many men are going at it alone and they're suffering

00:23:23.940 because of it. And we're weaker when we're isolated, but when we band together, not only

00:23:28.640 do we give ourselves the opportunity for personal growth, but we also increase our ability to

00:23:33.440 do good and righteous work in the world. If we're feeding off of serving each other

00:23:38.200 and banding together, uh, like the type of, of work Tim and his team, uh, are engaged in.

00:23:43.540 So if you're interested in banding with us, or at least just learning more about what we're

00:23:46.640 doing and how we're helping each other and how we're trying to do good in the world and

00:23:50.200 spread this mission of masculinity, then head to order a man.com slash iron council. Again, 1.00

00:23:56.240 that's order a man.com slash iron council. We're only open for a very limited time. So if you're

00:24:00.880 interested, get on it quickly again, order a man.com slash iron council. Do that right after 0.98

00:24:06.340 the conversation for now, we'll get back to it, Tim. No, it's interesting. And I think what

00:24:11.380 you're referring to is unintended incentives, like you were talking about earlier is, is I

00:24:15.260 think, I think most of the laws that we enact or most of the rules and regulations, I would

00:24:19.360 say most of them are incorporated because whoever, you know, championed this, this, this law or

00:24:25.960 this regulation did so because they believed it was the right thing to do. Uh, but there are

00:24:32.200 so many unintended incentives and consequences that happen. Even if our intentions are pure and

00:24:39.600 right. That's right. That's right. What kind of backlash do you personally receive as you go

00:24:45.160 after companies or organizations like Amnesty International? And I'm sure there's a whole

00:24:49.280 laundry list of, of organizations that are, that are on your list and I'm sure you're on

00:24:53.520 their list. Uh, what type of backlash do you receive with, with these organizations?

00:24:58.260 Yeah. Yeah. Quite a bit. I mean, I never thought that the, the, the pursuit of liberating

00:25:05.400 children and rescuing them would be something that is becomes political or becomes a reason

00:25:10.460 to, to, to hate on groups like ours who are doing that work. Um, but unfortunately it is

00:25:16.040 like, it's the biggest difficulties we have isn't finding traffickers and children. Um, we

00:25:22.080 know what we're doing. So it's relatively easy for us to, to find that the harder battle for

00:25:26.420 me is fighting what the good guys, okay. The media that wants to, um, they want to, uh,

00:25:32.800 make the world believe that human trafficking isn't real because somehow it gets in their,

00:25:36.740 the way of their agenda to, for example, make the word pedophile into minor attractive persons.

00:25:42.900 They want to almost normalize and desensitize the world saying that it's okay. In fact,

00:25:47.860 it may even be healthy for a child to, to, to have orgasm by, by adults. I mean, this is making,

00:25:54.060 this is getting into mainstream culture in ways I can't even comprehend. I mean, I've been tracking

00:25:58.640 pedophile groups who've been making these arguments for quite some time, sexualized kids, 0.79

00:26:02.800 take God out of education. It gets in the way, um, get parents out of the way, you know, public,

00:26:07.760 public officials know best, um, teach kids about masturbation and, and, and show them naked pictures. 0.96

00:26:13.480 And all this is what the pedophiles have been pushing for, for decades, because it makes them 0.99

00:26:19.120 pray. Now we see half the country actually formulating policies and, and doing exactly what

00:26:25.880 pedophile has been asking them to do. And we're watching it happen for our eyes. I see what kids

00:26:29.980 are being given the material under, under, I used to be able to arrest people for providing the kind

00:26:35.720 of material that is given to children by public school officials. It's, that's the damned thing 0.99

00:26:40.500 I've ever seen or, or empowering children to make choices that affect themselves completely. 0.97

00:26:46.320 You know, to say a child can consent, consent to just doing things to their body that, you know,

00:26:52.900 a child can't consent to that. And this has nothing to do with the trans issue. Adults should do what 0.58

00:26:56.780 they want. I support adults if they want to be trans or whatever they want to do. But if you say 0.64

00:27:01.620 a 13 year old can consent to cutting off their genitalia, I'm telling you what's going to happen 0.98

00:27:05.800 next. And it's happening. You can't stop that child from also saying that I want to consent to sex with 0.94

00:27:10.940 a 50 year old, or I want to identify as a 30 year old. You can't, the minute you start empowering

00:27:16.300 children this way, you are victimizing them. And so the pedophiles are sitting back salivating at these

00:27:21.280 policies. And so our, the biggest fights we have now is in the cultural wars and the political wars

00:27:27.040 here in this country. And they want me to be discredited. So they'll attack me simply because I say, no,

00:27:33.160 we're not going to change the name pedophile to minor attracted persons. Well, Tim pedophile is so 0.62

00:27:37.580 degrading. Yes, it is. And that's supposed to be as it should be because it's the red flag. Don't 0.99

00:27:43.360 normalize this. So those are the bigger battles, the more difficult battles, believe it or not, than

00:27:46.980 actually rescuing kids from human traffickers. Do you think though, that the majority of,

00:27:52.320 let's say a school teacher, I mean, we've all heard stories. We see things in the news. Do you

00:27:56.460 think that these people are evil? And there is evil. I'm not going to dismiss that. There's evil,

00:28:00.820 evil people in the world. And you're more intimately familiar with that than probably most people walking

00:28:04.860 around on the planet. Or are they just delusional? Are they ignorant to the message that they're sharing

00:28:11.900 and how it's actually championing the cause of some of the things, disgusting, despicable things we're 0.97

00:28:16.240 talking about right now? I think, I think by and large, it's delusion. It's ignorance. It's trying

00:28:22.660 to be tolerant. You know, there's this weird culture going on that if you let your kid do this

00:28:28.100 to themselves, or if you accept, you know, the call them minor attracted persons, somehow you're

00:28:32.480 going to get more social media hits and views. And it's true. It's happening. So it's this weird

00:28:37.380 kind of, in the name of tolerance, I'm going to do something that feels right because people are

00:28:43.040 telling me it should feel right. But if you look in the weeds on it and get dirt, get into the dirt

00:28:46.960 into it, you're going to see you're hurting kids. And so part of this is just educating people, waking

00:28:51.540 them up to making them real. I'm not saying that this kind of godless side that is sexualizing our

00:28:58.320 kids and doing what the pedophiles want. I'm not saying they're talking at all. They're not. I think

00:29:03.200 they hate pedophiles. They just don't realize that they're peddling the same ideologies. And that's 0.88

00:29:08.300 what we need to wake them up to. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that assessment because I think

00:29:12.920 there's a lot of things that go around with regards to just saying, oh, these people are evil.

00:29:18.040 I'm like, well, hold on. Like, let's really about, I'm not opposed to thinking that, but let's really

00:29:22.760 figure out what it is because if it's evil, that's one way we need to address it. If it's delusion and

00:29:28.520 ignorance, that's another way. And so we ought to really call it for what it is, I would think.

00:29:32.200 Well, you said something about it's easy to find these individuals. I'm really curious about how

00:29:40.180 that works. I'm sure at this point, you have a pretty expansive network and informants and,

00:29:46.340 you know, undercover operators that probably give you a lot of leads into these things. But how are

00:29:51.720 you finding these individuals? And then what does the process look like from there? Because you can't

00:29:56.020 do everything. So you have to be selective on what you're going after. Correct. So, you know,

00:30:01.600 first and foremost, we make the relationship with law enforcement. We need that power, that

00:30:06.720 authority to actually make the arrests and do the extractions in a legal format. And so once we have

00:30:12.560 those pieces in place, then we work together how to infiltrate. Oftentimes it starts online. There's

00:30:18.800 tools, there's technology, there's even AI tools now that I can't get into the details, obviously,

00:30:24.420 because we don't want to expose our tactics that there's countermeasures for, but there's ways

00:30:28.720 to go in, including into the dark net, and pretty easily identify people who are making transactions

00:30:35.360 in the world of child sex. And then, you know, it's still very effective, just the cold, hard,

00:30:40.420 undercover work, informants going into bars, clubs, strip clubs, spas, and so forth. We get intel.

00:30:46.840 Again, a lot of intel originates on the dark net where it says, hey, go to this spa, ask for this

00:30:51.100 kind of massage, and a 12-year-old is going to come out. Well, we'll send our undercover operator in

00:30:55.600 there, and nine times out of 10, it's exactly what happens. But once we get that intel, we

00:31:00.480 immediately turn it over. We always are working under the jurisdiction of whatever authority that

00:31:04.580 we're in, so they can actually do something about it. And we turn these real operations into really

00:31:09.860 trainings to where we can start leaving, and the government we're working for can continue doing

00:31:16.680 these types of operations on their own. Do you have some of these authorities that ever resist

00:31:21.500 your efforts and your desire to serve and support what they're doing? Or is everybody in all the

00:31:28.000 departments fairly receptive and open to what you guys are doing at this point?

00:31:31.780 At this point, they're pretty receptive. It was hard in the beginning when we started in 2013-14

00:31:36.380 because human trafficking wasn't as known. Sometimes we're educating law enforcement,

00:31:41.960 especially in developing countries, on what it even is. And they don't even know or believe it's

00:31:45.720 even happening. But because there's been a more heightened awareness in the media, people are

00:31:51.680 more available to the thought and open to working with us. And so it's rare that we have a problem,

00:32:01.100 even with corruption, because we work closely usually with U.S. embassy assets, homeland security

00:32:06.520 investigations, where I came from and a lot of our operators came from. We work very closely with them

00:32:11.500 when we can. And they help us vet out and find the right authorities in these countries that are

00:32:16.280 trustworthy. There's been times that we have a documentary coming out called Operation Praying

00:32:20.840 Sage. It's named after Sage Robbins, the life of Tony Robbins, because she helped us with this

00:32:25.760 operation in a really unique way. But it's a story of a rescue operation we were conducting in Haiti

00:32:31.600 of 10 girls who had been lured in there and being trafficked. And the Haitians turned on us. The cops

00:32:36.200 turned on us in the middle of the operation. It got paid off by the traffickers.

00:32:39.920 And yet we still managed to get the girls out into safety and rescue them. But we filmed the whole

00:32:45.420 thing. And so, I mean, there's times when they turn on us. We have contingency plans in place

00:32:50.620 in case that were to happen. What would cause you to not pursue a lead or something along those lines

00:33:00.060 where you're thinking, you know, we can't pursue that. We can't dedicate resources to this. Or maybe

00:33:05.140 it's the intel's not where we need it to be. What would cause that?

00:33:07.920 I mean, the only thing I think that would cause that is if we believe the child wasn't there

00:33:12.160 anymore. We are promised to the public. We say it and we believe it and we mean it that we will

00:33:18.700 go anywhere. We will go to any... And the Haiti operation proves it. People say all the time,

00:33:22.660 don't work in Haiti. They could turn on you. Okay, well, so that girl doesn't deserve to have any hope? 0.99

00:33:27.440 No. If we have the intel and it's solid, we're going to go and we'll figure it out. We will have

00:33:32.040 contingencies A through C and we will pray our guts out and expect miracles to happen if everything

00:33:38.160 falls through because, you know, God's children are not for sale as Jim Caviezel so powerfully says

00:33:43.220 in the movie Sound of Freedom. And so, we will pursue it. We'll pursue it unless we believe

00:33:48.240 that the kid's not no longer there. If the kid's there, we'll find a way.

00:33:52.420 I'm glad also that you're talking about AI because, you know, every once in a while,

00:33:57.000 I have some bot or whatever, you know, try to clone my Instagram account and I get people who

00:34:02.040 message me and I'm grateful they do. But they'll show me occasionally the thread of the conversations

00:34:07.060 and these bots are getting really, really good. It's very personal. It sounds a lot like me.

00:34:14.980 It's talking about conversations that I would have based on what my business model is.

00:34:19.220 And I just, I imagine that we are just opening an entire can of worms. It used to be that if it

00:34:25.280 was somebody trying to solicit services or trick a young girl or young boy into meeting them somewhere

00:34:30.900 that it had to be a person. And now that's just leveraged and it's just happening to the nth degree.

00:34:36.560 That's right. And not only is this going to and is affecting our fight because kids are going to

00:34:41.220 get lured at a much faster rate, but yeah, businesses everywhere, e-businesses everywhere can be

00:34:45.840 under threat. Cause I mean, you're there, there may come a time where we can't even trust

00:34:50.380 buying anything online because we don't really know definitively who it is. Yeah. Scary, scary times.

00:34:57.600 Tell me about, I know we're a little pressed for time and you've got a busy, a busy schedule because

00:35:01.680 of the, of the release and everything that you want to do. But tell me a little bit about the,

00:35:05.080 the movie that's coming out, Sound of Freedom and what it's about and then how we can get involved

00:35:11.260 in, in various different ways. So Sound of Freedom is a feature film starring Jim Caviezel,

00:35:16.460 Mary Cervino. And it tells the story of, of me and my family and, and, and what we were dealing

00:35:23.960 with back in 2013, when we came across an operation in Haiti that are in, well, actually Haiti and

00:35:30.980 Columbia, but this one's focused on Columbia. And we were, we had to make a decision. I was told by

00:35:37.340 the U S government, I had to come home. I had no jurisdiction or authority to be there,

00:35:41.240 but I had also committed to the point that if I left the op wouldn't have happened.

00:35:46.240 So it was a tough place to be. And, and it was the story of how we decided to do something crazy

00:35:50.940 and in faith and just quit our job just so we could do the operation. And it actually led to,

00:35:57.340 and turned into the biggest rescue operation that may be recorded in history that we know of

00:36:01.340 over 120, uh, girls were rescued and it's the story of how the, how it all took place. Um, it's,

00:36:08.480 it's kind of an action film, you know, it's, it's really, um, it's kind of a white knuckle kind of

00:36:12.920 thing. You know, we're looking for these kids and it's our, it's going undercover and doing everything

00:36:17.280 and anything we could create, we think up to get these kids rescued.

00:36:22.240 Yeah. Well, I've seen, I've, I've watched the trailer, your team sent over the screener. So I've seen

00:36:26.840 a part of it. I haven't seen the whole thing, but really, really powerful.

00:36:30.040 Um, you know, one thing I just, I have to say as we wind this down is I really appreciate you and

00:36:35.140 your work. It's, I love having conversations like this because so many of us as men recognize

00:36:40.000 problems. It's really easy to recognize problems. We see it, we're familiar with it, but relative to

00:36:46.560 that few of us take action towards those things, especially when it puts you and your family and

00:36:51.440 your loved ones at personal risk. And I just want to tell you, I commend you for that. And I appreciate

00:36:56.960 you leading from the front in, in that way. It's such important work. And the fact that you're

00:37:00.460 following through on it means a lot. And it sets a great example.

00:37:03.420 Well, thank you because some, most media outlets in the world don't want to talk about this.

00:37:08.860 So the fact that you were even willing to have this conversation and introduce your community

00:37:12.480 to this dark thing, I appreciate it because this is the solution. Media will be the solution.

00:37:17.360 And we want everybody to buy tickets to sound of freedom angel studios, who brought you the chosen,

00:37:22.400 uh, they are the ones, uh, distributing amazing group. Um, I'll tell you this. I just got word in

00:37:27.780 that we have our, our, our competition is Indiana Jones. They both come out at the same time. We have

00:37:33.060 doubled already ticket sales over Indiana Jones today, right? Yeah. So this is good. Cause there's

00:37:39.080 a silent majority that's people of light are saying, no, we want to see this. So we're grateful

00:37:43.320 for that. Go to, um, angel.com, go to angel.com and buy your tickets. Um, people can also pay it

00:37:48.900 for it. I have a program where it's like, look, everybody, we want 2 million butts in seats

00:37:52.760 on July 4th weekend to represent the 2 million children in the commercial sex trade. And how

00:37:57.620 angel studios is doing this is not only can you buy a ticket for your family and yourself,

00:38:01.340 but you can buy 10 tickets or 50 tickets for people who otherwise won't be able to go and

00:38:05.660 they can distribute those tickets nationwide. And so if you can, if people can't afford it,

00:38:09.900 they can still go see the film, uh, again, July 4th, sound of freedom, angel.com.

00:38:14.860 Well, uh, we'll sync everything up. And then you also just to put a plugin for

00:38:18.420 operation underground railroad, uh, just tell the guys a little bit briefly about that and

00:38:22.260 where they can go. And that, I think they can help through that as well. Donations or

00:38:25.620 get involved in other ways. That'd be great. Yeah. Oh, you are rescue.org is the name of

00:38:29.300 the foundation. The other foundation that I run, uh, that I equally love is called the

00:38:33.540 Nazarene fund founded by Glenn Beck in 2014. And we do similar work, but it's, it's a little

00:38:38.240 more in some ways, next level and, uh, working on persecuted Christians and helping them get

00:38:44.000 out and other religious minorities and in the middle East Africa, Oregon harvesting 0.89

00:38:47.900 cases. So, um, either one of those, oh, you are rescue.org or the Nazarene fund.org.

00:38:54.100 So thank you so much. And we'll sync it all up. I appreciate you. I know you're a busy man.

00:38:58.200 Thanks for carving out some time and we'll get this all loaded for the guys and they can know where to

00:39:01.360 go. Thank you. Appreciate you. Thank you. All right, gentlemen, there you go. That one. Oh my

00:39:07.840 goodness. That just, it's crazy to hear these stories. I can't believe that this is happening

00:39:12.880 at all, let alone happening right under our noses in 2023. It doesn't seem like it should,

00:39:18.220 but we don't operate from a place of delusion. We operate from a place of reality and this is

00:39:22.980 what's happening. So, uh, great ways to support Tim are to go check out operation underground

00:39:27.400 railroad, uh, check out everything that he's doing. Connect with him on Instagram, share this

00:39:32.040 podcast, take a screenshot, share this with people who you need to know, because the more we can bring

00:39:35.740 these types of conversations as difficult as they are to light, the more we can do good. Um, also make

00:39:41.800 sure to pick up or, or buy a ticket to, uh, the, the new feature film sound of freedom or buy 10 or

00:39:47.480 a hundred tickets to support their work. Whatever we can do to support Tim and operation underground

00:39:52.080 railroad is going to do a lot of good in the world. So I would appreciate that. Uh, outside of that

00:39:58.100 again, iron councils open order of man.com slash iron council. You can check that out, but for now,

00:40:02.840 you've got your marching orders, share tag, Tim tag, myself, iron council operation, underground

00:40:07.920 railroad, sound of freedom movie. You guys know what to do. Appreciate you all. Let's get in this

00:40:12.400 fight. Let's get in this battle and keep doing good. All right, guys, we'll be back tomorrow for

00:40:17.140 our ask me anything until then go out there, take action, become the man you are meant to be.

00:40:22.500 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

00:40:26.940 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - June 20, 2023

TIM BALLARD ｜ Eradicating Child Sex Trafficking

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