Order of Man - TRENT PRESZLER ｜ Little and Often Soon Becomes Great

00:00:00.000 As many of you know, in January of this year, my oldest son and I started building a canoe.

00:00:05.540 As we embarked upon this project, many of you introduced me on Instagram to a professional

00:00:10.800 boat builder named Trent Pressler. Fortunately, Trent and I have built a relationship as he shared

00:00:16.460 with me some of his own successes and failures when it comes to building canoes. And when I

00:00:22.140 found out that he had a new book coming out called little and often, I knew I wanted to have him on

00:00:26.220 the podcast. Today, Trent and I talk about why he decided to build a canoe with the tools that his

00:00:31.420 dad left him, what the canoe symbolizes and how important it has been throughout the history of

00:00:37.100 the world, why we place our fathers on pedestals. They don't belong becoming your own man and why

00:00:44.920 scars are important. And of course, how little and often soon becomes great. You're a man of action.

00:00:51.440 You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears and boldly charge your own path. When life knocks

00:00:56.800 you down, you get back up one more time. Every time you are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged,

00:01:03.740 resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of

00:01:10.480 the day. And after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on

00:01:16.420 a day? My name is Ryan Mickler and I am the host and the founder of the movement that is order of

00:01:21.200 man. I want to welcome you here. And of course, if you're visiting for us for the very first time,

00:01:25.320 I'm glad you're with us. This is a critical, critical movement, not just in the lives of the

00:01:31.920 millions of men who have heard what we're doing and improve their own lives as fathers and husbands

00:01:36.840 and business owners and community leaders, but just in society in general, you know, as well as I do,

00:01:42.120 if you're tuning into this, that society, political ideology, pop culture is increasingly dismissive

00:01:50.000 of masculinity. And it's my job to stand against that. It's my job to be the antithesis of that.

00:01:56.360 And I consider it also my job to give you everything that you might need to become more of the man that

00:02:02.040 you have a desire to be, that you're capable of becoming, and that the people in your life are

00:02:07.140 relying on you to be. So we've got these conversations. We've got our exclusive brotherhood,

00:02:11.620 the iron council. We've got a lot of programs. We do live events. There's a lot going on and you

00:02:17.040 can find all of that as you've been with us and connect with me on Instagram and Facebook and

00:02:21.820 Twitter and all the social media accounts. And if you would, if you've been banded with us for any

00:02:26.860 amount of time, all I ask is that you share it. You know, if you want to join us in our exclusive

00:02:31.820 brotherhood, the iron council, great. If you want to buy our hats or shirts, great. If you want to come

00:02:36.300 to our, one of our events, that's wonderful too. But at a minimum, please just share this,

00:02:40.860 take a screenshot, post it on Facebook or Instagram, which is where I'm most active

00:02:45.040 and let other people know, shoot them a text, send them this episode, a link to this episode

00:02:50.340 so that they know where you're getting the information and how they can improve their

00:02:54.160 own lives. That's all I ask. So guys, I've got a great one lined up for you today with

00:02:59.300 a new friend of mine. His name is Trent Pressler. We're going to talk about him just here in a minute.

00:03:04.020 Before I do, I also want to mention my show sponsors. And of course my friends over at origin,

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00:03:42.660 checkout, because you're going to get a discount when you do. So again, origin, Maine.com use the

00:03:49.780 code order at checkout. All right, guys, let me introduce you to Trent. I'm very, very excited

00:03:54.840 about this one. As Trent and I wrapped up our conversation, I remember talking with my wife

00:04:01.220 just last week about this is this is legitimately one of the best conversations that I've had on this

00:04:06.740 podcast. And that's saying a lot because we've done, I think over 350 or 60 interviews at this

00:04:13.420 point. And I've had absolutely phenomenal men on this podcast. And this one just, we knocked it out

00:04:18.200 of the park, not, not to sound too braggadocious on that. But as I said earlier, my guest today is

00:04:24.360 Trent Pressler. I was introduced by many of you when I began our canoe building project in January of this

00:04:29.480 year. He's a professional boat builder. Many of you have probably seen his works of art. I call them

00:04:35.320 that because they're absolutely beautiful. They're stunning. But these are actually tools that men

00:04:40.940 have been utilizing for thousands of years to improve their stations in life. Trent is also

00:04:45.400 the CEO of Betel Cellars, which is a winery in Long Island, New York. But in 2014, he began a new

00:04:51.900 path as he built his very first canoe, similar to my situation with his rancher father's tools. And

00:04:58.780 since then, Trent has been building beautiful, absolutely beautiful luxury canoes, which admittedly

00:05:05.040 was not a path that he thought he would find himself on. Trent, like I said, has become a

00:05:08.940 friend of mine and someone who is extremely, extremely insightful with regards to his own

00:05:13.140 craft and life in general. And as strange as it may sound, I, I really believe that we were

00:05:17.520 destined in a way to connect guys. You're going to enjoy this one as much as I did. I'm sure of it.

00:05:24.340 Trent, what's up, man. So good to finally connect with you.

00:05:27.120 Hey, Ryan. Thanks for having me. Gosh, we're like long lost internet friends.

00:05:31.160 Yeah. The internet is pretty cool, actually. You know, it's funny because people say,

00:05:35.940 you know, you can't form real connections or real friendships on, on the internet.

00:05:39.980 And I actually beg to differ. I think there's some incredible opportunities to connect with people

00:05:44.500 that you would never be able to connect with otherwise.

00:05:47.760 I completely agree. I mean, it's changed my life in so many ways. I would never have met other

00:05:52.760 canoe builders like yourself or woodworkers. I mean, uh, and especially during the last year when

00:05:58.660 we're all sitting at home, it's been, um, you know, I used to say it's not real life. Like it's

00:06:04.040 just virtual, but it is real life. Like we're talking and I'm meeting and I'm making new friends

00:06:08.040 and I'm meeting people like you and it's great. So yeah, I'm on, I actually, I actually hope we

00:06:13.420 can get together. I know. I think you're in New York. Is that, is that right? You just moved though.

00:06:18.180 You just, you just bought a new home on, on the water. If I remember correctly.

00:06:21.480 I did. Yeah. I'm, uh, I just moved like eight miles from my old house, but I am on

00:06:25.860 the ocean. I write up my window. Maybe when we're off this, I'll show you like a video,

00:06:30.520 but I'm staring out at the, at the sea right now. It's pretty foggy. Um, but I always wanted

00:06:35.320 to be on the water and this has sort of been the, um, the dream move here. So I'm just settling in

00:06:41.320 and, and getting acquainted with the place. I've got about two acres and a, and a sand dune kind

00:06:47.140 of habitat leading down into the water. So the dogs run around and chase turkeys and have a good time.

00:06:53.560 Yep. That's amazing. Is, is the, uh, is the water connection boat related, or has this been

00:06:59.800 something that you've always dreamed about? You know, it's not so much boat related. I grew up

00:07:05.140 in South Dakota, um, in the middle of nowhere and there were no trees and it was flat. And I always

00:07:10.780 felt most comfortable when I can see the horizon and I'm, I get somehow, I don't know, claustrophobic

00:07:17.560 maybe in the mountains and they can be beautiful and trees are great, but, um, I kind of want it to be

00:07:22.600 in the water. Cause I like to be able to see the horizon and see the sunset and sunrise. And, um,

00:07:28.040 and it's also like watching a fire, like watching a campfire, um, that when you're watching the water,

00:07:33.880 it's just constantly changing, almost like having a TV set right outside the window. Um, so it's

00:07:40.920 magical. I mean, I haven't put a boat out there yet, but, uh, and the water's a little choppy for

00:07:45.300 that, but we'll get there. I imagine they'll get there. It's interesting because I I've never been,

00:07:51.180 I've never been what you would consider a water guy and we're not a water family. We moved from

00:07:56.400 the desert of Southern Utah to Maine a couple of years ago. And last year is really the first time

00:08:04.380 that I think we would consider ourselves, consider ourselves a Lake family. Sure. Yeah. I've got a

00:08:10.200 lake that's three to four minutes away from us. And we went, we went to the lake. I was, man,

00:08:16.300 I was probably there during the summer. I would say three to four days a week where we would just

00:08:20.440 hours and hours of the lake. And I remember we bought a lifetime, uh, kayak is what we bought.

00:08:27.760 Uh huh. Oh yeah. Sure. And we put it on the water and we had such a great time. And I remember sitting

00:08:33.560 out there in the water and I thought, wouldn't this be better if we were doing the same thing next year,

00:08:40.460 but in a canoe that we built, that's when we decided my oldest son and I to build a canoe.

00:08:47.540 And I thought, man, I can't tell you how excited I am to get that thing out on the water.

00:08:51.280 There's nothing like it. And, um, you know, Maine's an awesome place. There's, there's lake

00:08:55.540 life in Maine and, but then there's also ocean life and, uh, you can be sitting on your deck and

00:09:00.220 then a humpback whale jumps out in front of you. And it, it means just magical. And I love

00:09:03.840 the smell of the air in Maine is, is got this like seaweed kind of component to it that I think is

00:09:08.920 amazing. But, um, yeah, there's something about, uh, floating in your own vessel and something you

00:09:15.600 made with your own hands. It's, and I don't, you're not quite at that stage yet, but I'm excited

00:09:19.740 for you. Um, that maiden voyage is, is something really, really special and something to be cherished,

00:09:26.380 especially cause you're making it with your son. Um, it's, uh, I don't know. Pride isn't even the

00:09:32.020 right word. Like when I was writing my book, the last chapter of my book, um, I, uh, well, I don't want

00:09:38.320 to spoil it, but I go out and paddle my canoe and, uh, the, I couldn't even think of the right words

00:09:43.240 to describe how proud I was. It was just like, wow, I built this. And this little thin layer of

00:09:48.500 wood is what's basically keeping me alive. It's all that separates me from water.

00:09:55.060 This is, this is so interesting. You say this because just, I think it was two or three days

00:09:59.580 ago, my son and I pulled the canoe off the molds for the first time. Yeah. And there was a little bit

00:10:05.940 of damage. I'm going to tell you about that here in a second, but we pulled off the molds.

00:10:10.360 And for the first time I realized how flimsy. Yeah. This thing actually is. Yeah. I was like,

00:10:18.360 wait, wait, wait, is this right? Like, I didn't know. Cause I put the fiberglass. I did the epoxy.

00:10:23.260 You and I had a couple of conversations. I'm like, I think I messed this thing up. He's like,

00:10:26.100 no, no, no. You didn't mess this thing up. And I pulled off. I'm like, this thing isn't going to hold

00:10:29.800 us. Yeah, I know. No, they're shockingly flimsy until you put on the gunnels or the spelled gun

00:10:35.860 whales, but those top railings that that's what gives it the rigidity. And also when you fiberglass

00:10:41.820 the inside too, it'll be like a fiberglass wood sandwich. And then, I mean, ultimately, even though

00:10:47.700 it's probably only a quarter inch thick, it'll have the tensile four times the tensile strength

00:10:52.300 of steel at the same. Yeah. At the same thickness and weight it's stronger than steel. And there's a

00:11:00.200 guy on YouTube I saw a few years ago who built one of these strip canoes and then tried to destroy it

00:11:05.640 intentionally just to prove how strong it was. Like he drove down a highway and threw it off the

00:11:10.640 back of his truck. Um, and it skidded and then he like hit it with a hammer. He couldn't actually

00:11:16.700 break it. Um, the only way he finally broke it was by like, I think he literally used dynamite and blew

00:11:22.660 it up. Um, which would be awesome. I would have a little, a little tear of, of sorrow and a little

00:11:29.160 tear of pride. If I could blow up my canoe with dynamite, I'll send you that video link after this,

00:11:34.720 but, uh, yeah, he was kind of crazy and they're, they're surprisingly durable. Once you get the

00:11:39.200 gunwales on, you get them in the water. Um, I mean, unless you hit a rock, you know, it can take

00:11:44.440 quite a bit of abuse. Like, I mean, if you hit a sharp thing, I had a jetty, uh, that was submerged

00:11:48.960 into the water with my last canoe and it cracked it, but it's cause it's a direct hit of something

00:11:54.140 sharp, but otherwise, um, it's remarkable and it'll look flimsy and you'll be kind of like, am I,

00:11:59.220 is this really correct? Is this going to float? And, um, I assure you, if you follow those plans,

00:12:04.660 it will. Yeah. It's really funny. Cause I have a lot of guys will say, do you think it'll float?

00:12:09.880 I'm like, why in the hell would I build a canoe if I didn't think it was going to float now?

00:12:13.700 Whether, whether my, the reality matches my expectations, that's a different story,

00:12:19.520 but I'm not setting out to build something that isn't going to actually be productive in the water.

00:12:24.360 Well, completely. Well, and you can have faith that the plans you used, I'm not sure where you

00:12:28.780 got them. I forget. I know we talked about that, but they're mountain is where I got. Oh, sure.

00:12:33.240 They're great people. I went up there and took a class with them and, and, um, all their plans.

00:12:37.960 These canoe designs aren't just new inventions. You know, these have been, first of all,

00:12:42.780 they were invented by the native peoples and the tribes that used canoes to hunt and gather in

00:12:47.580 the United States. And then, um, when European settlers came in, they kind of modified those

00:12:52.480 designs to make them wider, more stable for like, especially in the East and in Maine, a lot,

00:12:57.680 uh, they were used by fur traders to go up and down water waterways. Um, so what you're building

00:13:03.400 is not like just some new thing, like, gosh, I wonder if it'll float. I hope so. This stuff has

00:13:08.920 been floating for millennia, right? So it's, yeah, you're not, um, you're part of like a long history

00:13:15.980 of men who have done this. Uh, so I wouldn't worry about it floating. Yeah. I would worry about whether

00:13:21.480 or not you start crying when it floats. Cause it's, it's like, Oh my God, it's just overwhelming

00:13:26.800 to be out there and also very peaceful. I'm not going to lie. Even as I imagine and think about

00:13:32.580 my son and I putting it out for the first time, even as I think about it, I'm like, this is

00:13:37.860 incredible. This is amazing. And it goes, and this is actually, I think a big message in your book as

00:13:44.900 well is it goes so much further than building a canoe. Like that's the lead. Yes, exactly. It's

00:13:53.820 the metaphor. It's almost just a metaphor. The canoe is this metaphor for finding yourself,

00:13:59.400 proving you can do something, proving you can, um, I don't know, provide for yourself. I mean,

00:14:05.300 the canoe was some, was a survival tool for mankind for so long. It was before we had highways,

00:14:12.580 uh, you know, Lewis and Clark explored the Northwest passage with a canoe up the Missouri river.

00:14:18.280 The word Missouri means in native tongue, um, people with wooden canoes. Um, really, you know,

00:14:25.960 yes. Interesting. I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. I was, when I was researching for my book,

00:14:30.540 it's something I learned. Um, uh, but yeah, it takes you back. I always kind of imagined being sort

00:14:36.760 of somehow linked to explorers, um, you know, throughout human history. Um, it's fascinating

00:14:44.000 to me that before any sense of, of modern communication. So, um, literally thousands

00:14:49.580 of years ago, humans in different parts of the world thought about canoes independently of one

00:14:54.940 another. So we had people in Alaska building canoes, um, six or 800 years ago. Uh, the oldest canoe

00:15:01.080 was found in Maine was carbon dated to about 400 years ago. Um, people in, yeah, yeah. There was a

00:15:07.100 dugout canoe. I found some newspaper article about it and they found, uh, canoe making, um, tools

00:15:13.840 somehow embedded in mud in Maine that they think were about 400 years old. Um, I'll send you a link

00:15:19.080 for that too. And then I see that. Yeah. And then canoe builders in, um, uh, Southeast Asia too. And,

00:15:25.540 and around New Zealand, I mean, this was all happening, you know, independently of each other.

00:15:31.420 No one knew that, Hey, there's someone on the other part of the world that is doing this, but the canoe

00:15:36.340 was this, um, not really a symbol of freedom, but a symbol of survival and self-reliance. I think it

00:15:42.900 was like, if I have this canoe, I can, you know, among other things, I can find food and I can travel

00:15:50.200 and I can escape where it's warmer or colder, or I can escape something that's trying to kill me.

00:15:55.540 And for me, I'm not interesting. Yeah. I'm not the best swimmer either. So canoes also saved me

00:16:00.800 from drowning. I actually, if I had to classify myself when it comes to water, I'm actually not

00:16:07.180 a huge fan of the water. I don't enjoy swimming all that much. I don't enjoy just sitting around

00:16:12.800 and in swimming or even laying on the beach. That isn't something I enjoy. Yeah. Yes. Me too.

00:16:19.180 Yeah. And what I think, what I think among other things that I've found is that we,

00:16:25.540 we can make the water interesting and useful. Yeah. You know, we can go out and we can fish,

00:16:33.760 or like you said, we can travel, we can trade, we can do all of these different things. And it takes

00:16:38.100 this, this ecosystem, the water, and it turns into some, turns it into something that we as men can

00:16:44.420 actually use and harvest and have a symbiotic relationship with. Totally. And also just your

00:16:51.140 personal wellbeing. Like I struggle to get enough exercise because I've got multiple jobs of writing

00:16:55.520 a book and running a winery on the side. And I, for me, it's like, Oh, I can go out in a canoe and

00:17:00.540 get exercise. I like, it's actually a lot of work to paddle. So I feel like, Oh, I'm appreciating nature

00:17:06.240 and doing something that's good for my body and my, my mind too. So it's kind of hits all those

00:17:12.420 buttons. And, and I do, I agree with you. I think I saw one of your recent Instagram posts about

00:17:17.000 staying busy and keeping busy with your hands. If even if you're, your mind goes into different

00:17:21.440 places and you get whatever wrapped up in something or depressed about X, Y, or Z when I'm

00:17:26.620 building something, or even when I'm out on the water, my, it somehow just quiets my mind. And I

00:17:31.560 don't even know how or why I just know that, all right, I'm busy with this task and it's, I'm being

00:17:37.040 useful right now. I'm like contributing to the world and to myself. And this is productive,

00:17:43.600 but it doesn't feel like a chore. It doesn't, it's very enjoyable. And you know, what, what I found

00:17:51.300 is that even when I'm done with what I would, I don't know if you would classify it as this,

00:17:56.440 but, but I call it a session. Yes. And so for sure. Yeah. So even, even, even when I get done

00:18:02.360 with a session, even if I'm feeling bad about myself, I'll go down and to the basement. Cause that's

00:18:07.060 where we're building it. And I, I might not actually do anything with the canoe. I might just organize

00:18:12.600 my workspace. Yeah. And I just, I leave feeling like, okay, you're valuable. Right. And I think

00:18:22.140 there's a lot of men who actually can't answer that question in the affirmative. Absolutely agree. And

00:18:28.400 you know, I had a particularly fraught relationship with my first canoe because my dad and I were

00:18:34.840 estranged for a very long time. And when he, right before he died, he called me home to South Dakota.

00:18:40.080 He was this tough cattle rancher kind of guy and he, uh, Vietnam vet, and he was a national champion

00:18:45.640 in rodeo in 1968. And he basically presented me with his toolbox on his deathbed and said,

00:18:53.080 make something of yourself. And, uh, I came back to New York. It's a very long story,

00:18:57.220 which is why I wrote a book about it, which I love by the way. Thank you. And, uh, when I got back to

00:19:03.200 New York and this goes back to your point of, of a session, cause they're the book in the middle

00:19:07.600 swath of the book, there's like, you know, chapters and chapters where I chronicle, how I built this

00:19:12.220 canoe with my dad's tools. And one of the lessons from him in childhood was this, uh, this idiom

00:19:18.760 little and often makes much. And that's kind of where the title of the book comes from little and

00:19:22.900 often. But, um, I would just, I'd be so frustrated at work or I just feel down or something just wasn't

00:19:30.180 going right. I'm frustrated. And if I knew, if I just forced myself there to that space and that

00:19:36.400 time I built my first canoe in my living room, uh, I cleared out all my furniture. It was completely

00:19:41.200 insane, but I thought if I just come home from work, even if I have dinner and it's 10 o'clock at

00:19:45.960 night and I, I, whatever, glue two pieces of wood together or sweep up a little pile of sawdust

00:19:52.100 and just do something. Then the next morning I can wake up and maybe do something else small. And

00:19:57.800 the point is that over time, enough of those little ordinary actions lead to something can

00:20:04.420 lead to something totally extraordinary. I mean, you'll be floating on the water and think,

00:20:08.500 how did I do that? Right. I don't know how I did that. God, I had a, I was down this year. My dad

00:20:13.500 died and all shit. I went through a divorce and all this crap. And then, oh, I did this amazing thing,

00:20:19.800 but there's only one way to do it. And that's a little bit at a time.

00:20:22.740 Yeah. I had a, I had a friend of mine when, when I started. So actually, so my son and I started this

00:20:30.260 project on January 1st. Yeah. And, and it's interesting because as I read your story, yeah.

00:20:36.100 New year's, as I read your story, you wanted to, you wanted to put your canoe in the water on the

00:20:40.540 anniversary of your father's passing. If I remember correctly. Yes, that's right. And so it's interesting

00:20:45.380 as I read what you, what you wrote here, there's, there's a lot of parallels and, and there's a lot

00:20:52.300 of symbolism built into it. So we started on January 1st, this is a new year. We're going to do this

00:20:57.320 thing. Yeah. And I had a friend who, who, his name's Alan Nash and, and, and he told me, you know,

00:21:04.620 cause I was feeling overwhelmed about everything. You know, I, I pulled up the book and, and, and

00:21:10.480 canoe craft, which I'm sure you're familiar with. I have. Yeah. Yeah. Great book. And yeah,

00:21:14.960 for sure. And I looked at it and I'm like, I no way, no way. Yes. And then Alan said to me,

00:21:23.660 said, Ryan, you don't know, you don't need to know how to build a canoe. You need to know how

00:21:28.960 to do the next step. Absolutely. That's it. And that's what I started focusing on. Like,

00:21:33.280 don't worry about the canoe. Just worry about like the next step and just do that. And gradually over

00:21:39.220 the past, you know, four months now we're building, it actually looks like a canoe, you know? So

00:21:45.620 that's, that's pretty incredible. I've been amazed you're progressing really fast, actually faster

00:21:49.980 than, um, uh, faster than I ever did my zoom. Um, I, uh, you know, the year thing is symbolic,

00:21:56.900 but I also wanted to say that, um, that's slow progressive stuff. And you, what you said about,

00:22:03.220 you put blinders on almost like you only know the next step. Don't look at the whole canoe book,

00:22:07.680 but focus on like, what's the first step. There was, um, a time in this, I talk a lot about this

00:22:13.000 in my book, but the, there was, when I grew up, we were really poor and I had to get this job on the

00:22:19.240 side, but this, it was in, I guess the eighties sometime late eighties. And there was this, uh,

00:22:24.740 and I lived in this tiny town in South Dakota called faith. And there was this program called rent a

00:22:29.340 kid and, and people in the town could like pay a kid, whatever, you know, five bucks an hour or

00:22:34.160 something to do some tasks for them, like rake leaves or whatever. Uh, so I got this job, uh,

00:22:39.760 scraping paint off of an old brick barn. And, uh, I was a kid and I was so pissed off that I had to do

00:22:46.160 this job and I would, and I was scraping like the skin off my knuckles trying to scrape this barn.

00:22:50.900 And I was so mad and, and I, I wanted to quit. My dad wouldn't let me quit. And he went there to

00:22:56.580 the job site with me one day. And, um, uh, and he said, you know, this brush, I was using like a

00:23:02.280 wire brush to scrape the paint off the bricks. He said, this brush doesn't know that it has to

00:23:06.920 scrape this whole barn. This brush doesn't know anything. It's just a brush, but it only really

00:23:11.960 knows what it's scraping in that moment. So he's like, you have to do this brick by brick. And so

00:23:16.920 he like sat there with me for part of an afternoon and went brick by brick across one row of this barn.

00:23:21.780 And just to show me that if I would just focus on one brick at a time, that that's all I needed to

00:23:27.480 worry about. I didn't need to worry about this entire barn that was towering over me. Um, and

00:23:32.900 then he left and he walked away because he had to go to his own job. Right. He's got his own thing to

00:23:37.080 do. Exactly. And I've left standing there in this like 90 degree sunshine. We're holding this stupid

00:23:42.160 brush. Um, but I did it that summer, uh, brick by brick. And that's the money I used to buy my first car.

00:23:48.640 Um, and that's the car I used to drive to college at Iowa state like that. Just, um,

00:23:55.300 I felt like that got me on the road to freedom in some way.

00:23:59.200 That's interesting. So when your father gave you his toolbox,

00:24:02.860 what, and he said, I can't remember the exact terminology you used, but you know,

00:24:07.340 go, go make something of yourself. I think is what you said. Yeah.

00:24:10.860 Was he telling you, he wasn't telling you to build a canoe.

00:24:13.520 No, no, no, not at all. So was it just a metaphor that he was presenting to you or,

00:24:18.440 or tell me a little bit about that experience. Well, so my dad didn't speak in metaphor. He was

00:24:23.580 a cowboy and he spoke in simple poetry. It was like cowboy speak just kind of, he barely spoke

00:24:29.580 more than five words at a time. And it was always very kind of, um, under his breath and muttered.

00:24:35.600 And he was, uh, just as kind of shut down kind of personality. And I, so when he gave me the tools,

00:24:41.740 I think he was saying more, um, I mean, mom kind of explained it afterwards that, you know,

00:24:47.060 he just wanted me, he thought maybe I'd find a project or maybe I'd want to use them for something,

00:24:52.200 you know, maybe around my house or whatever, but he didn't set in my mind, like any idea of what I

00:24:58.360 would build or even that I would build anything. But I think he had in mind, and one of the

00:25:02.940 conclusions that by the end, by the end of building the canoe and by the time I wrote the book was that

00:25:07.440 I think he knew and wanted me to find a place in the world for myself. And that in order to do that,

00:25:15.060 I had to find a purpose. And I get really emotional thinking about that because I didn't always feel

00:25:21.280 like I had a purpose. I had a fancy job in New York and, uh, I was running a winery and going back

00:25:26.400 and forth between the Hamptons and New York city. Um, but I wasn't doing anything with my hands and I

00:25:32.600 studied agriculture in school and I got this job because I'm basically a farmer. Um, but even the

00:25:38.460 farther you get in any industry, the less you actually do of the thing that you were passionate

00:25:42.040 about in the first place. So at this, yeah, people keep promoting you and it's like, I don't actually

00:25:46.580 want to be promoted. I want to keep doing this thing that I enjoy doing. I just want to make more

00:25:50.700 money maybe, but I don't want the promotion. Yeah, exactly. You go from growing grapes or building

00:25:56.240 things to like just signing paychecks and firing people, you know, that's kind of the higher you up,

00:26:01.520 you get. And then you're sitting at this desk one day, like what, what does come become my life?

00:26:06.400 And what's my purpose? Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know if dad knew he was speaking a metaphor. Um,

00:26:11.520 and for him, for him, tools were never metaphorical. They were, you know, he, we had a 10,000 acre

00:26:16.340 cattle ranch, um, and tools were just a way to subsist and get by every day, you know, and there was

00:26:22.460 no way to go to town and buy something. You know, we were 60 miles from the nearest town. It was like,

00:26:29.320 if something broke, you had to fix it. Um, you know, and that was it. There was no discussion

00:26:33.940 or worry. Like, well, I wonder how we're going to do this. It was, we have to do this.

00:26:39.060 Right. We have to find a way. So, so why didn't you just remodel your kitchen?

00:26:44.680 Ha ha. Gosh, my mom asked me the same thing. She said, why didn't you just make me a nice

00:26:49.740 cutting board? Yeah. That's what I'm thinking. Exactly. You know, uh, it's a question I still

00:26:56.480 struggle with, even though I wrote a whole book on the topic, but, um, my canoe was my freedom

00:27:01.100 in the same sense that I scraped all the paint off those bricks and bought a car as an 18 and 17 year

00:27:06.480 old to get out of South Dakota and go to college. This was, um, I think a way for me to, um, experience

00:27:14.280 nature and immerse myself more in nature. And I was living on the water at that time. I was in a rental

00:27:18.940 house, not in the place I am now, but, um, and, uh, I had always explored nature a lot with dad as a

00:27:25.420 kid. And I had my first memories of him. We always went hunting. We were hunting every Saturday and

00:27:31.160 Sunday, basically. And, and everything, ducks, pheasants, partridge, quail, uh, raccoon coyotes.

00:27:37.920 Like if you name, if it had fins, feathers, or feet, I killed a bunch of them with dad. Yeah. And so,

00:27:44.960 and he, we wouldn't even talk much when we were out hunting because that wasn't really dad's thing.

00:27:48.940 But we would kind of observe things and he would, I would like name a species of plant or tree or

00:27:54.060 animal. And he would say, yeah, that's right. And, um, I just remember this sort of piece. Um,

00:27:59.860 I loved being out hunting with dad. It was just like, everything was quiet. It was just the two of

00:28:04.080 us tromping through a cornfield or whatever. And, uh, I wanted to get back to a sense of

00:28:10.160 the wonderment, I think that I had as a boy with dad, which I had definitely lost, uh, you know,

00:28:17.300 as a late thirties, early forties guy. Yeah, totally. I was like, wow, where'd my sense of

00:28:24.300 wonder and exploration and adventure go? Uh, you know, have you ever read any books,

00:28:29.060 uh, any of, uh, John Eldridge's work? Uh, no, I haven't. So he has this quote and the guys that

00:28:35.640 are listening to this podcast are already rolling their eyes. Cause I say it all the time,

00:28:38.400 but he, he says the first time for me. Okay, here you go. So deep in his heart,

00:28:43.660 every man longs for a battle to fight, an adventure to live and a beauty to rescue.

00:28:49.520 And I, and I focus on that second component and adventure to live. Cause I think you're right.

00:28:54.180 I think, you know, I look at my boys, I've got three boys, I've got a little girl

00:28:56.900 and I watch them, you know, sometimes I just watch them and see what they're doing. And they're,

00:29:01.840 they're so fascinated with everything and they explore and they dig and they get dirty and they get

00:29:05.960 into trouble and they break things and they fix things and they just like fascinating.

00:29:09.800 Yeah. Yeah. And then you said as a 30 something and I just turned 40 a couple of weeks ago.

00:29:15.280 Uh-huh. And we lose that, like we lose that fascination and because we just toe the line

00:29:20.720 and, you know, do what we're quote unquote supposed to do. And we just live these meaningless lives.

00:29:25.380 Yeah. Yeah. No, I, there's a version of that quote I've heard before, which is that

00:29:29.200 whatever happiness is something, having something, someone to love something to do

00:29:33.540 and something to hope for in the future, which could be an adventure, like you just said,

00:29:38.120 I think. Right. And, um, yeah. And I think I had also lost the sense of risk taking,

00:29:42.660 you know, I think I had sort of, as I got older, it was like, not only do sort of does adventure

00:29:48.680 close its door on you, but then, um, you're not taking as many risks, I think. Cause you know,

00:29:53.760 you got to pay a mortgage and you got to have your car payment and you got to go to work and it's

00:29:57.620 like working for the man, but then, um, uh, but you don't feel like the man, right? Yeah. No,

00:30:05.040 you feel kind of like diminished, but also just without a sort of guiding sense of purpose that

00:30:10.660 I have to get up and do something for myself too, and not just to sort of live in the world. Um,

00:30:16.200 so yeah, I think the canoe was a three-dimensional portal into adventure again,

00:30:22.320 and into risk-taking again, and to really challenging myself more than say putting a

00:30:27.660 new kitchen cupboards or building a cutting board, which are just, you know, it's fine.

00:30:31.360 Everyone has to build a home. It's nice. Right. But a canoe was, uh, you know, linked to millennia of,

00:30:38.600 of explorers and adventurers and life and death scenarios. I mean, guys used to hunt whales by canoe.

00:30:46.340 I mean, like not that I'm, right. Not that I'm killing a whale, but like this, there were the same

00:30:53.240 vessel, same vessel, same shape, like totally identifiable as the same thing that, that other

00:30:59.900 people have used for these wild things. And my family came over from the Ukraine in a, in early

00:31:05.620 1900s. And my great grandmother took a covered wagon with an ox across the country and settled in

00:31:13.460 this town called faith South Dakota, where I'm front. And she had a bag of wheat seeds and she

00:31:18.500 had 11 kids from, with natural childbirth with my great grandpa, Jake in a sod house with no

00:31:23.560 electricity or running water. And she lived to be 104. It's like, and I complain when the wifi is down

00:31:30.920 or like, right. Or the power's out for, you know, two hours or whatever it is. Yeah. Or I didn't get

00:31:36.420 the right latte at the whatever coffee shop. Like, Oh my God, the least I could do is try to build a

00:31:43.000 boat and paddle from one side of a lake to the other. Yeah. That's interesting. You know, it's

00:31:48.680 funny as I, as I embarked upon this, uh, this, this path for myself and my oldest son in particular,

00:31:54.200 uh, my, so my father's passed away and we had kind of an estranged relationship as well. So this

00:32:00.380 is why a lot of what you talk about resonates so deeply with me. But my uncle Mike reached out to me

00:32:04.860 and he said, Hey, you know, uh, your, your grandfather was a boat builder. Wow. And I had no idea.

00:32:11.500 Carl, Carl Mickler. He was a boat builder. Okay. I had no idea. And he said he wasn't a boat builder

00:32:16.980 by trade, but he built boats and then he would go out and he would fish on these boats. And he just

00:32:23.860 said, I'll go grab it maybe in a second, but he just sent me this, this book that has canoe plans

00:32:29.280 and boat plans. And he's trying to find pictures of my grandfather who, who built boats. So it's really

00:32:35.620 cool that you're talking about your lineage, because I don't think a lot of guys do this at all.

00:32:39.540 And we don't know where and who we come from and how strong these people are. Like if only we had

00:32:46.300 just an inkling and an idea of how strong these individuals are and also how weak we have become.

00:32:54.000 Yeah. I think we would be more inclined to put ourselves in a better situation, develop skills,

00:32:58.340 harness a lot of these technologies and tools and just live life a little differently than we do

00:33:03.940 currently. Right. A hundred percent. Well, a big part of my journey was trying to understand who

00:33:09.240 my father was and, um, you know, we can't escape our inheritance sometimes. So it's fascinating that

00:33:14.980 you have a boat builder in your lineage. Uh, my mom always said that your father could build anything

00:33:20.460 and I took it as like a challenge to me. Like, you know, how about you get out and try to build

00:33:27.340 something. And I thought, well, maybe I have to prove myself. Right. Exactly. Like, oh my God.

00:33:32.920 Right. Uh, so, uh, he, he never built a canoe, but I remember looking at him in, in the casket at the

00:33:39.400 funeral and our hands are identical. I mean, my dad and I have literally spitting image hands of each

00:33:45.860 other. And I remember thinking, wow, think of all the things he did with his hands over the years from

00:33:50.920 building rodeo corrals and barns to pulling calves out of their mother's womb. I mean, my dad was

00:33:57.940 roughneck to the hilt and I'm not, you know, and I live in New York and I used to wear a suit to work

00:34:05.460 every day. I don't anymore, but I thought, oh my God, these hands could do that too. Right. Couldn't

00:34:10.980 they? I don't know. And it's, I found out that it is in my DNA just by throwing myself into the

00:34:17.980 situation with his tools and deciding to do something bold and to build this boat. Um, I learned

00:34:24.540 so much about myself, but also about my dad and how hard it is to actually live and be self-reliant

00:34:30.660 and do the things that he did his whole life. So it's helped me a lot to, I guess, understand him,

00:34:37.080 even though we didn't really have a great relationship. Um, I can sort of put myself in

00:34:43.420 his shoes in a way when I'm building something and think, all right, yeah, this is kind of how

00:34:48.280 dad felt. It's exhausting and frustrating. And on top of it all, you've got to, you know, raise a

00:34:53.980 family or feed yourself, but, uh, yeah, yeah. I, I get that, man. I, I, um, I think what we do is

00:35:03.020 as sons, whether we're boys or men like we are, sometimes we put our fathers on pedestals or,

00:35:11.420 or maybe put the concept of father on pedestal. Yeah. This is what he should have been. This is

00:35:17.680 what we've done. This is how he should have raised me. Yeah. And when my father passed away a couple

00:35:22.640 of years ago, I did him a huge, I think a big service. And I did myself a big service by taking

00:35:30.040 him off of that unrealistic pedestal and realizing that he was raised in a way he was conditioned in

00:35:37.820 a way. He had his own struggles and demons just like I do. Right. Maybe different demons, but,

00:35:45.040 but they're all the same. And I took him off the pedestal and I started to realize that he,

00:35:50.880 same thing with you and your father with the hands. Yeah. I'm telling you what, man,

00:35:54.660 I look in the mirror. I'm like, Holy shit. I look like my beard, my head shape, my eyes,

00:36:00.940 my demeanor. Yeah. I'm my dad. Yeah. I know. And then for the first time I come to the realization,

00:36:06.860 oh, like all the faults that I individually have, you mean like he is a human being had those

00:36:13.220 same faults and you can forgive them for those things. Right. You couldn't. And you were such

00:36:18.260 a brat, right? The whole time. Yes. There's a moment in my book where I had that realization when

00:36:22.880 I got to a really tough point when I was fiberglassing the canoe and I was exhausted. And I,

00:36:27.820 I wasn't careful about the fiberglass epoxy application and I got, I developed a pretty

00:36:33.280 severe rash reaction to it. And, and I wanted to quit. Basically I quit. And that was my low point.

00:36:40.960 And that's when I kind of started to realize that I was the same age that dad was when he was going

00:36:46.860 through a whole host of shit in his life. And it was the first time I saw him as a peer or as an,

00:36:52.480 as a human that took him off the dad pedestal, as you said. And it was the first time in my life I ever

00:36:57.000 said his name out loud. I said, Leon out loud, you know, and that's my middle name. He gave me my

00:37:03.360 middle name. His first name is my middle name. And, um, it was this revelation. Wow. I could say

00:37:09.220 his name. And he was just this guy like me that had all these dreams and, and mistakes and everything

00:37:15.780 in between. And, um, um, yeah. So instead of complaining and blaming him for shit, I just,

00:37:24.100 uh, it was the whole worm turned and I thought, wow, I can have empathy for what he went through

00:37:30.560 and know that part of what forged him is also part of what has forged me as a man. And that's one of the

00:37:37.280 biggest sort of conclusions toward the end of the book, uh, which I won't reveal too much about,

00:37:41.700 but yeah, don't please. Cause I, what I really want these guys to do that are listening, whether

00:37:47.940 you're going to build a canoe or not, I don't care. I think you should, I think it's actually a cool

00:37:51.660 thing. If you have the means and the time and the desire, like I think you should do it. And if you

00:37:55.080 never do it again, fine, but I think you should, but let's say you're not interested still. It's a

00:38:01.240 metaphor. You let off the conversation with that. The canoe is a metaphor. I talk a lot about jujitsu

00:38:05.900 jujitsu is important in and of itself, but it's also a metaphor. Find a metaphor that's going to

00:38:11.300 serve you well in your life. Absolutely. Find your canoe, you know, maybe you need to,

00:38:15.580 I don't know, clean out your garage because it's just full of stuff. Or maybe you haven't talked to

00:38:21.820 your dad in five years or, you know, or, you know, had a meaningful kind of any sort of engagement or

00:38:28.180 whatever it is, like find the thing in your life. That's nagging you that if you did it,

00:38:32.600 you'd feel like you did something, you accomplished something. And maybe that it enhances either your sense

00:38:38.240 of purpose or just moves your life forward. And I think it's a powerful, it's just a powerful

00:38:45.140 understanding and a way to live life. I think to feel that there's maybe something, a driving purpose

00:38:51.060 and something out there that we're always reaching for and whether it's a canoe or something else

00:38:54.600 and something where the outcome isn't always certain. I think we, you know, I think we often get hung

00:39:01.800 up on, uh, well, will this float or how will this all end? Or will my dad still like me or you name

00:39:10.760 it? Right. And so we get paralyzed and we're frozen because we're worried. Well, what if it turns out

00:39:16.340 bad? Well, guess what? Like a lot of shit turns out pretty bad in life. Not everything's great,

00:39:22.260 right? You know? So if you're frozen, they're worried about how it turns out, you're never even

00:39:27.000 going to find out the answer. Um, so you have to kind of just plow through it. Well, and I want to

00:39:33.220 know, I want, I like, if I have a thought in my mind, well, what if you did this or what if it doesn't

00:39:39.820 work out or what if it does? I, that isn't enough for me. I actually want to know. Yeah. I want to

00:39:45.460 figure out, can I actually build this thing? Yes. And maybe I can't today. Maybe the answer is no,

00:39:52.300 but at least I know what the certainty, or at least I can get some feedback. So maybe if I'm interested

00:39:56.800 in doing it again, then I can do it better. Yeah. I want to prove it. I want to find out.

00:40:01.560 And I think all men are like that. We want to prove it to ourselves. Right. That, that we can do it.

00:40:07.380 And if we can't, then we want to know, so we can maybe do it better next time.

00:40:11.300 Absolutely. You know, and I feel like there's no greater sense of disappointment than when you

00:40:15.080 disappoint yourself. Um, when I started the canoe, I was doing it for my dad to try to understand him,

00:40:21.500 but also I had a sister who had, had died of a rare disease, kind of like cerebral palsy in our

00:40:26.440 twenties. And, um, I felt like I was living life for, for three people. I had the burden of

00:40:32.100 carrying my sister and trying to figure out how I could live two lives. Cause she never could. She

00:40:36.880 was in a wheelchair for most of her life. And then my dad too, who was kind of, he ended up dying of

00:40:41.940 cancer from agent orange, orange exposure in Vietnam. Yeah. And, uh, and so I had all this burden

00:40:49.180 of the three of us thinking, uh, I can't let them down and I got to do this and do this, you know,

00:40:55.720 but guess what? Newsflash they're both dead and I love them, but I, who I would really let down if I

00:41:02.380 didn't finish this was myself. And that was more devastating thought than anything in the world.

00:41:08.280 I was like, well, I could quit this canoe and I could walk away and no one in the world would know

00:41:14.360 or care that some guy on long Island had tried to build a canoe with his dad's tools and quit.

00:41:20.920 No one would know except me. And I would carry that my whole life. Wow. I never saw that through

00:41:28.680 to the end to know what the real answer was. I just stopped. Um, failure would have been okay

00:41:33.540 because I would have felt like, okay, well, you know what? I gave it the go. I tried to build this

00:41:39.320 boat. It wasn't great, but Hey, I sort of took the bull by the horns in a way that not a lot of

00:41:45.740 people do. Um, but turns out it did float and it changed my life in so many ways. Cause now I build

00:41:51.700 canoes professionally. So, yeah. Well, I want to talk about that, but I do want to ask with regards

00:41:57.500 to your father and your sister, do you feel like at this point in your life that you have let them go

00:42:04.920 that you don't have to carry their lives on your shoulders? What does that look like?

00:42:12.080 Man, let me hit the, uh, the pause button on the conversation real quick. Many of you are familiar

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00:42:21.620 refining it since then, of course, but what you may not be familiar with is that we've got a new

00:42:25.760 battle planning app that we just released that has turned that written planner that has done so well

00:42:31.260 for so many men into something that you can carry with you wherever you go in literally the palm of

00:42:36.460 your hand. Uh, the 12 week battle planning app is going to walk you through everything that you need

00:42:41.060 to do to make more of the next 12 weeks than most people do all year. And with a daily non-negotiable

00:42:48.660 and daily task section and function, it it's likely to become your one-stop planning and organizing

00:42:54.880 and strategizing tool. So if you're interested in learning more about our battle planning app,

00:43:00.500 which is available on Apple and Android, then you can check out the free version of that app

00:43:05.800 at 12 week battle planner.com 12 is in the number 12 week battle planner.com. And you can see for

00:43:12.260 yourself and actually start using it and see how it will improve every facet of your life. Again,

00:43:17.780 that's 12 week battle planner.com. Make sure you check it out after the podcast for now,

00:43:22.620 Trent and I will get back to it. That is a tough one. I still have dreams about them sometimes where

00:43:28.900 I hear their voices and I still, um, you know, I do feel like as long as you have a memory of someone,

00:43:34.040 they're still sort of alive somehow, and they're still working somehow in your life to influence

00:43:38.980 you or you hear their voice and you think, Hmm, wonder what they would be doing right now. Um,

00:43:44.380 I have said goodbye and reconciled enough where I feel like I am my own man now. And I'm, uh,

00:43:52.160 you know, sort of ready to paddle my own canoe and, uh, my definition of myself isn't so much,

00:44:00.280 um, you know, based on everyone else's definition of me. It's based on my own purpose and my own

00:44:09.820 definition of myself. And I think for a long time, I worried what other people thought and everyone

00:44:15.380 still does and I still do, but, um, being able to sort of grasp that my dad and sister loved me and

00:44:22.620 I loved them and then be able to say, okay, but now I have to carry this torch. Uh, there was a lot

00:44:27.560 of closure in that. And somehow the canoe, uh, magically gave that to me in a way, the process

00:44:34.740 of building it. Um, I can think I said, there's a line in the book that, um, uh, that the canoe was my

00:44:41.400 freedom and that it, uh, it spoke to me of a world that I never thought I would belong to,

00:44:46.680 which is a world of woodworkers and boat builders. And what it said to me was that you belong here.

00:44:52.620 And the man you've made yourself into is the man who you always were. And I always felt like I need

00:45:00.240 to get back to that guy I used to be, but I always was this guy. It's not like there was a body and mind

00:45:06.960 transplant. Suddenly it was like the guy I made myself into. He was there all along. You know,

00:45:13.460 I just hadn't fully embraced him or somehow given him the freedom to be who he was.

00:45:19.620 I've never, I've never, uh, I don't think I've ever heard it put like that because one of the

00:45:23.900 things that I talk a lot about is becoming the man that you're meant to be. And when, when I hear

00:45:29.020 that, or when I say it, what I think is you can, you can mold, you can shape yourself into some sort

00:45:35.940 of unrealized potential. Yeah. But what I'm hearing you say is that there's already the

00:45:43.600 ideal version of yourself. You just kind of have to uncover and navigate to who that individual is.

00:45:49.360 Yes. I think in part, it's almost like a seed or an acorn. Um, you'd never imagined that a hundred

00:45:54.560 foot Oak would grow out of a little acorn, but the possibility for it was there all along,

00:46:00.620 whether you watered it and put it in the sun or not, I guess was up to you. So it is, I think,

00:46:06.620 you know, I always say the grass is always greener where you water it. Uh, I think it's up to us to

00:46:13.280 become the version of ourselves that we want to be. I also agree with you that we have to allow

00:46:18.880 ourselves to change. You know, we can't just say that like, well, I'm going to be the kid I was when

00:46:23.520 I was 16. Um, we have to change and change our opinions and our minds and our bodies and our

00:46:29.300 souls and just sort of grow because the whole world is constantly changing and evolving around

00:46:34.200 us. And we're always getting new information. And, um, all of that informs, I think in a way

00:46:40.080 who we are and who we become. Um, I'm very interested in the intersection of what you said and what I said

00:46:47.280 about that, whoever you made yourself, what I said was whoever you made yourself into is who you always

00:46:52.060 were. And what did you say? Cause I, now I'm like really excited about this. Yeah, no, it's an,

00:46:57.020 and I am too. It's, I said, uh, that you, you have the potential to become, so it's up to you

00:47:02.220 to mold yourself. So I kind of look at it. If we were to simplify it, like, correct me if I'm wrong,

00:47:08.760 but what I hear you say is there's some sort of fate that doesn't absolve us of the responsibility

00:47:13.120 of walking towards that. And I think that again, this is just to simplify it, that maybe there is no

00:47:18.580 fate. There's just what you do today and tomorrow and the next day. And then eventually that determines

00:47:23.240 what you will be. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that all adds up to a man, right? And that's kind of one

00:47:29.080 of the lessons of my book was, which was that my dad had, um, done all these things in his life that

00:47:35.140 affected how I, um, viewed my possibility, which I thought was quite limited until I started to push

00:47:42.100 the boundaries of what, um, what was possible and realized that, Oh, I wasn't limited by what my dad

00:47:47.860 did. Um, you know, a good example is that I think kind of tragically, um, my dad had this outsized

00:47:57.100 sense of masculinity that prevented him from ever saying, I love you. Like he was a champion in the

00:48:03.500 rodeo and he was this grizzled Vietnam vet and he barely spoke. Um, you know, and he hit me and he was,

00:48:11.500 um, tough and he, you know, we would go riding horse and I'd get bucked off the horse and there'd

00:48:16.560 be a rattlesnake there. And he cut his head off with a whip. I mean, the guy was, it was just like

00:48:21.260 every, every idea you have. That's amazing. I mean, this is Marlboro man to the 10th degree.

00:48:28.420 Right. And like, I was just this kid, like basically just terrified of him. And so I knew that he probably

00:48:35.500 loved me, but I never really knew. And even on his deathbed in the hospital, he didn't say,

00:48:40.140 I love you. He said, um, drive safe. Okay. Those were his last words to me. Interesting.

00:48:47.640 Right. And it was like, he, which means I love you. Right. I mean, that is what that means.

00:48:52.140 That is what that is. But I guess I just felt like I had to hear it in a certain way or it didn't mean

00:48:57.540 anything. And part of my journey is realizing that you can show love through actions, not words. And it

00:49:03.180 doesn't have to be this demonstrative thing all the time. And that he was limited either by scars from

00:49:09.600 Vietnam or just in his era or his, where he was in the world. That's not how people lived.

00:49:16.600 But to your point of walking toward something and realizing a sort of fuller idea of ourself

00:49:23.680 in my own life, I've been able to be conscious of that. And I don't want to ever have the people in

00:49:29.700 my life wonder and worry if I love them. I don't have kids, but I could imagine if I had a son,

00:49:36.560 I wouldn't want him wondering and worrying whether or not I actually liked him or not.

00:49:42.400 I think part of being, you know, for me, part of masculine identity also has to be owning that

00:49:48.360 we have sort of a caretaker role and like a, I don't know, husbandry is not the right word,

00:49:53.980 but just the stewardship. I would call it stewardship.

00:49:56.280 Yeah, absolutely. And part of that is I think maybe understanding your, your role and your

00:50:04.500 feelings enough to be able to express them and to say that, well, this is, you know, I'm the big guy

00:50:08.860 in this situation and I need to make sure that the people around me that look up to me, you know,

00:50:15.940 know that they're being cared for. And it wasn't always true with my dad, but I do believe like

00:50:21.920 his last words to me, drive safe. Okay. We're as close as he could get. And then he gave me his

00:50:27.420 tools, which of course was the biggest gift of all really. Yeah. I'm actually getting a little

00:50:33.680 emotional as you talk about this because years ago, my father passed away. Um, the long story short,

00:50:39.480 my mother called me to tell me he wasn't doing well. They, they were, were divorced, divorced and

00:50:44.140 had been for years. Yeah. And, and I, I drove to California from Utah and my two oldest boys came

00:50:52.180 with me and my mom texted me on the road or called me and said, you know, how far away are you? And I

00:50:57.200 said, you know, I'm, I'm 30 minutes away or whatever. She said, okay, get here quick. And I got there and

00:51:00.900 he had died 30 minutes before I got there. And she texted me. That's when he died. She didn't want to

00:51:06.420 tell me that over a text. I can appreciate that. Right. Yeah. Sure. Um, and, and I think about it,

00:51:12.520 you know, like what would he say? Would he say drive safe? Okay. Or would he say, I love you?

00:51:18.100 Or would he say I'm proud of you? Or right. I don't know, man. Like, I don't know, but I think

00:51:23.720 there's a couple of different lessons that can be extracted from that. One is the recipient of a

00:51:28.520 message. I think it's our responsibility to at least attempt to interpret it correctly. Yeah.

00:51:35.720 And then I think there's a responsibility as the deliverer of a message to deliver it in a

00:51:42.500 way that lands correctly. Right. Yeah. It's a gift to give and receive on both sides. And, uh,

00:51:50.060 you're right. You know, I wasn't there when he died either. He gave me his tools and I was so busy

00:51:53.860 at work. I drove back to New York. Um, and he died a few days later. And, uh, my last words to him

00:52:00.700 after he said, drive safe. Okay. We're see you at Christmas. Cause it was Thanksgiving when I saw him,

00:52:06.700 you know, I was so confident that he was this tough guy and he'd live till Christmas and I come back.

00:52:10.780 And then I could say all the things I wanted to say, of course that didn't happen, you know,

00:52:15.520 and I wasn't there when my sister died either. I've actually never been present when anyone that

00:52:19.480 I knew important to me died. And I've heard that that's such a profound thing. Um, I'd like to be

00:52:25.040 someday as, as morbid as that sounds, I would like to be able to get it, you know? Um, so I really

00:52:30.780 relate to you sort of missing your dad by a half an hour. And then you're left as the survivor to wonder

00:52:36.400 what would he say, think, or do in this X, in this situation or that situation. And how do you

00:52:43.660 carry forward? Um, cause then, especially when your dad dies, it's just you. Like, I just felt this

00:52:50.160 like sort of quiet sort of weight, like, Oh wow. You know, I'm the only son. And it was like, okay,

00:52:57.900 now it's just you. What are you going to do?

00:52:59.560 Yeah. But you know, what's interesting about that too, is everything that we tell ourselves

00:53:05.260 about life is made up. Yeah. Like, Oh yeah. We, we, we have these experiences and then we filter it

00:53:11.120 through our own experiences and lenses and baggage and everything else. We live in our heads. It's

00:53:16.340 ridiculous. And then we determine, well, that experience means this, and that conversation

00:53:22.080 means this, and it's all bullshit. Right. Yeah. We don't actually know. Right. And, and so I think

00:53:27.980 about, I think about it with my father. I don't, I don't know what he would have said, but guess what

00:53:32.000 I get to do? I get to make it up in my own mind. Yes. That's a beautiful thing too. He would have

00:53:37.240 told me exactly what I needed to hear. That's what he would have said. And that allows me to have the

00:53:42.300 legacy of him that I want to have of him. And it's not about being delusional. It's about being of

00:53:47.240 service to me and then being able to raise my children the way that I see fit, that maybe I feel like

00:53:53.040 he, in some ways fell short of that. Yeah. I think it's a beautiful way of saying,

00:53:57.940 of describing what a memoir is, because in some ways you have to patch together this history

00:54:02.900 and think, well, I don't know what they would say in this situation, but they're gone. And so it's,

00:54:09.060 I have to figure out what I would interpret it to be. And then, you know, believe it. And you're right.

00:54:15.620 We live in our heads so much and we can't know anything. And we, we often think we do. And we don't,

00:54:20.940 like, we don't really know what tomorrow you get hit by a bus tomorrow. It's, you know,

00:54:24.240 if you told me seven years ago that I would have built a boat and written a book and be talking to

00:54:29.760 you on this podcast, you know, like, I think you were completely crazy. Um, it has, because you

00:54:36.660 started this in 2014, correct? Yes. Yes. So yeah, it's only been like, is it seven years? Yeah. Yeah. And

00:54:44.360 my life has been completely turned upside down, uh, in the, in the best possible way. Um, because I was

00:54:50.480 forced, I think really to just forge my own identity and, you know, do something that I find

00:54:56.460 something that I really enjoy doing. And the canoe happened to be, to be that, but, um,

00:55:01.680 You said something interesting earlier. You said, uh, I have this, I think the term you used was,

00:55:07.000 was side gig or side job of, of the winery. Yeah. But in 2014, that wasn't the side job,

00:55:14.980 right? Oh yeah. And I'm sure for much longer than that, that wasn't the side job. That was

00:55:20.020 the primary job. Yes. Yeah. I'm the CEO of a hundred acre vineyard on Long Island. We have

00:55:25.940 about 50 employees and it's a 40 year old company and I've been there for 18 years and it is still

00:55:31.800 my primary source of income. Although I do now have a book on the market and I make boats also.

00:55:36.960 So, um, uh, there was that one CEO and I'm just blanking maybe Jack Welch. He had said once that

00:55:44.100 the best CEOs make themselves superfluous. And I'm really proud that I built a great company where I

00:55:50.720 have great managers and my winemaker is awesome. And our, our whole team is great. And I don't need

00:55:58.240 to be there 40 hours a week anymore because I've built a business that works. I feel like if I had to

00:56:03.400 be there 40 hours a week, I'd be a failure as a CEO. Yeah. It's not your job. It's not my job

00:56:09.380 anymore. Like I'm, you know, I'm kind of like the bumper bowling. I'm those things you, the rubber

00:56:13.760 things you put in the gutters to make sure that the thing, the whole operation stays moving forward,

00:56:18.760 straight ahead. I'll sign the checks and, you know, fire somebody if I need to, but I'm not there to

00:56:23.460 day to day to physically do everything anymore. And that took, that was kind of like a guilt thing that

00:56:29.560 I put on myself when I realized that, Oh, I don't need to be there all the time. I can write a book

00:56:35.020 and, um, make a canoe and it's okay for a long time. I thought, well, should I feel guilty that

00:56:40.860 I'm not sitting there all day long, you know, holding my employees hands, but I had to get over

00:56:45.700 that because, and realized that, you know, just as I had grown as a man, I had also grown a business

00:56:50.700 that was mature and could run itself and, and, you know, sort of get dress itself in the morning,

00:56:56.820 just like I could. So yeah, I guess one of the things, one of the things I, I tell people a lot,

00:57:03.000 cause a lot of guys will ask me about fatherhood, you know, especially as new fathers, you know,

00:57:07.100 I've got four kids. I told you, and I don't know anything about it. I've been doing it for 13 years.

00:57:11.880 And the more I do it, the more I realized I have no idea what I'm doing and, but I'll have guys who

00:57:17.200 ask me what, what should I be considering? What should I be? What advice do you have? And what you just

00:57:22.800 said, here's what, here's my recommendation. Your job is to render yourself obsolete.

00:57:28.400 Yeah. Your job is to put yourself out of work, which is a weird thing because it competes with

00:57:33.240 our ego. Yes. Like what if my kid doesn't need me anymore? That's good, but it also sucks.

00:57:40.520 That's a great way to say it. Cause that I had to lose my ego at work. I'd be like,

00:57:43.780 what if I'm the CEO that doesn't need to be around? Am I, you know, am I still the boss? Well,

00:57:49.160 of course, but, but it's the ultimate compliment that you can walk away from that. Just like you

00:57:54.460 send your kids off to college. Yeah. They don't need you. Like that's kind of the point. It's kind

00:58:00.420 of the cycle of life. Um, right. Right. To put yourself out of work in a way. And it's the mark

00:58:05.200 of a great leader, whether that's a CEO or a father or any, any capacities, the sign of a great leader is

00:58:11.260 somebody who can lift up and groom and grow additional leaders so they can do it in their absence.

00:58:16.700 Right. And then what do you do as a father? Once you're relieved of that burden?

00:58:22.780 Well, that's the problem is guys think, well, what can I, what am I going to do with my time?

00:58:27.020 You know, and they don't have any sort of direction. So they think, well, I guess I'll

00:58:30.880 just consume myself with this, even though they shouldn't be doing it.

00:58:34.420 Right. I mean, there's any number of vices we can slip in there to pass the time. And I think it is,

00:58:40.800 you know, I don't know what that feeling is like because I don't have kids, but I could imagine

00:58:43.940 it's similar to when I finished this book. Uh, there was this moment when I spent so much time

00:58:51.060 on this book, almost more than I ever spent on a canoe. And, um, when I finished it, it was this

00:58:55.940 empty nest syndrome of what do I do now? I have all these free hours of the day and the book doesn't

00:59:01.000 need me anymore. Gosh, do I write another one or what? Yes. Yes. I guess I'll move along. Like,

00:59:08.320 I'm sure you'll find purpose before too long with those hours that you're, that you no longer have

00:59:16.000 to be consumed with writing. So, okay. So you built this canoe in 2014 and if I remember correctly,

00:59:22.560 it took you about a, was it a year to build about a year? Yeah. Right. Okay. Yeah. So I've had guys

00:59:29.000 and I've, I've, and I think they're joking and I've never taken this seriously, but they said, okay,

00:59:33.320 when you build this one, can we commission you to build one for myself? And I've never, I don't

00:59:39.360 even take that, that seriously. I don't think they're serious. I'm certainly not serious about

00:59:43.860 this because I got other things I want to do. Yeah. How did that play out for you? Cause I'm

00:59:48.700 sure you at some point maybe got a request that somebody commissioned you to build a boat. And

00:59:54.340 did that change things for you? Did it did it all turned on? Yeah. It was this actually pretty

01:00:00.700 interesting sequence of events. So I finished this boat and I, I had felt like I'd absorbed

01:00:07.580 all the lessons of what it meant to build a boat with my dad's tools. And I was moving on with my

01:00:11.340 life and it was probably 2016, 17. And there was this local beat reporter on Long Island who had

01:00:18.960 heard that there was a guy in town who had built this canoe and it was beautiful. So this woman called

01:00:23.120 and asked if she could come, you know, make a little video of my woodshop and my canoe and just tell

01:00:28.180 the story of what I did. Um, so I said, sure, that's fine. So she made this little four minute

01:00:33.540 documentary, which ended up winning an Emmy award for outstanding lifestyle feature.

01:00:40.040 Really? I didn't know that. Yeah. That's amazing.

01:00:42.420 So there's an Emmy with that she won for directing and producing this little short documentary about

01:00:47.760 me. And then it started stuff exploded. Then there was a series of press articles. I was in the

01:00:52.940 wall street journal, New York times. And, um, anyway, that led of course, to phone calls from

01:00:59.360 people who like your friend said, Hey, would you make me one of those? I saw you in the Emmy video,

01:01:05.080 or I saw you in the wall street journal and, uh, wondering if I can buy that. And I hadn't thought

01:01:09.880 of this as a commercial, uh, enterprise at all. And my literal words to the guy were, well, really,

01:01:16.860 I just built this boat with my dead dad's tools. And that was all I wanted to do. Okay.

01:01:22.560 It's not for sale. And he said, well, he wanted to buy the boat that you built or have you build

01:01:28.380 another one? Well, he wanted to buy the one that I built. And I said, absolutely not, which seemed to

01:01:32.680 make him only want it worse. He said, well, can you build me one just like it? And I said, well,

01:01:38.120 I'll have to think about it and call you back. Um, and I had at the time, um, the owner of the

01:01:45.440 winery who is now deceased, but he was the CEO of new line cinema. So he was the executive producer

01:01:50.700 of the Lord of the rings, Austin powers. He was a big Hollywood mega player. His name was Michael

01:01:57.160 Lynn. And he was also on the board of trustees of the museum of modern art in New York city.

01:02:01.600 So I called him and I said, you know, I've got a wall street journal wants to know how much this

01:02:05.780 canoe costs. And I've got this guy calling me asking if he can buy this canoe and what it would

01:02:10.300 cost. And I said, well, I'm not, you know, I'm not in business. I'm not an artist or a woodworker.

01:02:15.040 Maybe, but maybe it should be. And he said, well, it took you a year. Right. And you had

01:02:20.620 expenses and this was hard work. He's like, so it should be a hundred thousand dollars.

01:02:24.660 Cause that's what you would pay yourself as a craftsman. Let's say you had whatever 30,000

01:02:28.760 in expenses and you paid yourself a living wage to a hundred grand. And I was like, no way.

01:02:35.220 Yeah. I was like, no way. That's right. Cause that's what I'm thinking. I'm like, nah,

01:02:38.560 nobody's going to pay a hundred grand for this thing. Right. Well, I've sold three of them

01:02:43.040 at that price. So it became the self-fulfilling prophecy. So the wall street journal ran this

01:02:48.700 article that said the world's first a hundred thousand dollar canoe. Um, then Esquire magazine

01:02:54.180 ran an article like the man who builds the world's most expensive canoes. It was this,

01:02:58.840 it just exploded in the press. And I got phone calls and from art collectors and, you know,

01:03:03.160 guys that have big money, just want to have the thing that, that their friends don't have.

01:03:07.580 Of course it's like whatever it's unique. It's, it's, it's something that not everybody can get

01:03:12.040 a hundred percent. Right. I mean, we know that there's people in the world for whom a hundred

01:03:15.660 thousand is really like they spend that on breakfast. Okay. So, uh, yeah. So I made one,

01:03:22.000 uh, in 2018 for that fellow. And he was, uh, he lives in Switzerland and he flew his 747

01:03:28.720 over from Zurich to JFK and picked up the canoe and went back to Lake Lucerne. Yeah, no, this is

01:03:36.480 amazing. It was so funny, you know, he sent the money and I was like, wow, okay, I guess maybe

01:03:42.280 this is a thing and I could do this. And I sold, um, another one in 2019, uh, to a client in the

01:03:48.740 Hamptons and he himself had like a $5 million, uh, wooden yacht, but his, he wanted the canoe for his

01:03:53.960 kids. So as one does, so I did that. And now I just got a new, when I took a year off to write

01:04:01.600 the book or a little more, actually a couple of years. Um, and then I just got a new commission

01:04:06.240 a couple of weeks ago for a client in Tennessee. So it's become a side more than a side hustle. I

01:04:12.800 mean, it's, um, and I get, you know, I've got, I taken a lot of shit from people that that's outrageous

01:04:18.140 and how dare you charge that much for a canoe or whatever. And, you know, look, get real about the

01:04:23.700 the way the world is, whatever the price, the price for something is what somebody will pay for

01:04:28.180 it. Exactly. A hundred percent. Yeah. Like there's no set price that somebody else gets to determine

01:04:34.660 for two consenting parties. Completely. I mean, I homes, $50 million airplanes, whatever, you name

01:04:41.960 it. There's a, there's a, what's the thing? There's an ask for every seat in America. So anyway, uh, so

01:04:48.580 yeah, so I've been doing that and it's, and I actually just hired an employee, um, to help

01:04:53.520 because I started, started to get feel like constricted in my throat. Like, Oh my God,

01:04:57.980 I can't do all of this anymore. This is too much. Um, so I'll have a guy that helps me in the woodshop,

01:05:03.520 uh, with this new commission. And then, um, you know, I can work on help, uh, we'll continue working

01:05:08.860 at the winery and then also with the book tour and, um, doing interviews like this one with you right

01:05:13.220 now. So has it has, has turning this into let's, let's just call it what it is a lucrative

01:05:19.900 business venture. Yeah. Has it diminished any of the, uh, the meaning and significance behind it

01:05:28.160 or is it, has it enhanced it? Well, you know what? I learned that I don't have to give everyone

01:05:34.560 all of that emotion that I invested in the first canoe. So, um, the first one was obviously

01:05:41.300 really special and it was a gift and something I did that was between me and my family,

01:05:47.380 but the next ones I can treat and have treated like a business. And the quality is improving

01:05:52.760 because every canoe you make, you get better at it. Sure. But the next one, you gave me a couple

01:05:57.420 of pointers that I never would have, you're talking about raise the temperature in your,

01:06:03.280 in your place, your workshop, and then gradually let it come down. I'm, I would never would have

01:06:09.020 considered that, but you probably learned that the hard way. I learned that the hard way. Cause yeah,

01:06:12.740 I had a whole, uh, fiberglass disaster where the, it all turned to bubbles. Cause I had the shop was

01:06:17.060 too cold. Uh, yeah. So it's all trial and error. And so the new canoes are better quality. Um,

01:06:24.520 but I don't, you know, no, I don't owe anyone, um, like, uh, a kidney or my soul, right. They're buying

01:06:34.060 a canoe that it's a transaction. Um, and, uh, you know, there's obviously meaning behind how I started

01:06:41.600 this and now, you know, in both the book and the whole story of how I got to this point. And people

01:06:46.260 are, I think in a way, buying part of the story and all of these clients wanted me to send a copy

01:06:51.060 of the book or a copy of this magazine article to like display on their coffee table at their cabin

01:06:56.300 to show their friends that come over. So that all does matter. And it does mean something,

01:07:00.440 but, um, I don't have to sort of weep over every work of art as it leaves the shop.

01:07:07.720 I can just, that's what I was going to ask. Do you feel bad? Maybe feel bad. It's not the right

01:07:13.680 way to say it, but like for me, I look at our boat and I, and I consider it two things. I consider

01:07:20.860 it a work of art, but a work of art is just to be viewed. Maybe that that's kind of how I look at

01:07:26.320 that. And then I consider it a boat, which is a functional practical application of the tool.

01:07:31.740 It's a tool, right? I want both. I want a tool and I want a work of art. Do you feel bad when

01:07:36.700 one of your works of art leaves and you don't get to have it and experience it? Or was it just the

01:07:42.300 memory of building it that mattered to you? Oh, I do feel a twinge when they leave the shop.

01:07:47.540 And I always ask them to send pictures if they, you know, whether they end up using it or hanging it

01:07:51.960 on the wall, just, you know, send me a picture. So I know it landed safely in the new home or

01:07:56.040 whatever, but do some of these people just put it on the wall. Yes. Uh, yes. So I have a work of

01:08:02.220 art. It's literally just a work of art. That's it. Yes. It's been both the client in Switzerland

01:08:06.320 paddles his weekly. I mean, he's always out and Lake Lucerne has like the Swiss Alps in the background.

01:08:11.080 It's the most dramatic. It's like, Oh my God, my canoe is in this crazy, there's a castle in the

01:08:16.080 background. Like, um, but my client in Tennessee, he has a 16 foot wide stone fireplace. Um, you can

01:08:24.260 imagine how big the house is if the fireplace is 16 feet wide. So he's hanging my canoe horizontally

01:08:29.680 on the fireplace mantle and it will live there forever. So he's just treating his as, as art.

01:08:35.380 Um, there's a part of the book where I talked about this sort of debate between art and craft and like,

01:08:40.580 is it a piece of art because it's really beautiful. Um, and, uh, there was a conversation I had with

01:08:46.940 the winery owner and a, an art collector. And, and he said, well, it functions, it floats. So it's

01:08:52.740 just a boat. It's not art. If you wanted to make it art, you know, you could maybe cut a hole in it

01:08:58.100 and spray paint, you know, curse words on it in pink and then sink it in the water. And then that's

01:09:03.760 like modern art, you know, then, then it's no longer functioning. Right. Then it's just whatever. But,

01:09:08.320 um, I had enough of breaking things and tearing them down. I had decided I wanted,

01:09:12.340 wanted it to float. Um, and everyone can have their own definition of art. I don't know if that's

01:09:17.140 mine, mine to make for them or not. Um, but I do feel also like the guy hanging it on in the,

01:09:23.240 on the fireplace mantle. It almost feels like when you have like a stallion thoroughbred and you just

01:09:29.560 keep them in the paddock and don't let them run. Yes. You know, or don't let them. Yeah. So I kind of

01:09:36.820 wish I could just see it used once and then float and then put it on the wall. It's fine. But

01:09:42.100 I guess that's what I thought about. Oh, I was going to say, I've thought about that with ours

01:09:46.120 is like, I actually want to beat the shit out of it. Not intentionally. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to hit

01:09:50.640 a rock, you know, and have a ding in the fiberglass and I wanted to have scratches and I wanted to have

01:09:55.720 stories of, you know, when we fish up out of it or when we went in that shallow part and we should

01:10:01.620 have done, shouldn't have done that. And at some point, like it just won't function anymore. And then we put

01:10:05.640 it up in the barn. We've got this incredible barn. So we put it up in the barn and we're like, yeah,

01:10:09.240 dad and I built that. Yeah. I love that idea that it's well-worn and used and dad's tools.

01:10:15.080 When I got them were like that, they were just beat to hell. I mean, it was some of these things

01:10:19.180 weren't even usable. It was like, what is this even, you know, and he'd be the kind of guy where

01:10:23.720 to open a can of paint, if there was a chisel in his pocket, he would just use that to open the

01:10:29.280 paint rather than walking across the room to get the paint. Why would you do that? Right. It's a waste of time.

01:10:34.880 So, um, I appreciate that a lot. And actually the first canoe that I built, uh, I trashed it. I used

01:10:42.180 it heavily. I paddled it in a storm. I paddled it in the winter. I hit the jetty and it's got like a

01:10:48.340 gash in it. And I love it for that reason. I wanted those scars on it. Um, in part, because it's also

01:10:55.600 like our skin kind of like we carry these wounds with us. I've still got the scars on my hands from

01:11:01.400 scraping that brick barn as a, as a high schooler. Um, and I always remember, I actually look at my

01:11:06.880 hands fondly now because I'm like, well, that was a learning point in my life. And you can say the

01:11:12.280 same thing about your canoe. Like, wow, that was the time my son and I went into that shallow area

01:11:16.160 and shouldn't have, you know, and we danged it up pretty bad. And well, that's a good memory.

01:11:21.640 Oh, it is a good memory. Even, and I told you earlier, I had some damage when I pulled it off

01:11:27.340 of the, uh, the molds. Oh yeah. Tell me about that. What happened? So I went to pull it off the

01:11:32.680 molds and I grabbed the, just, just the cedar strip portion just past the stem. Yeah. And I,

01:11:40.900 and I went to like pop it off and about five planks ripped out in my hand from the stem.

01:11:46.980 Um, and it, and it created a gash about, I would say five inches or so in the actual fight,

01:11:55.280 the outer fiberglass that we had just completed. Sure. And I'm like, well, that's fine. I almost

01:11:59.420 cried. Yeah, it's fine. I'm going to fix it because it's shocking, right? It's shocking. At first I was

01:12:04.680 like, no, cause we got this far, but the cedar strips weren't properly glued to the stem. So my son

01:12:12.860 and I re re glued those to the stem, put some clamps on their under clamps right now. And then we'll

01:12:17.860 sand it down. We'll re-epoxy that portion. We'll fix it. No problem. It'll be fine. Yeah. But in

01:12:23.220 the moment you're like, Oh my God, what did I do? Yes. And then when I sent you that text and I'm

01:12:28.640 like, did I just F this whole thing up? And you're like, you're okay. You're like, it's okay. Just

01:12:34.300 calm down, you know, relax. And so it's going to be okay. But I see those things. Go ahead.

01:12:40.440 No, I was just, it's like, I'm passing forward the deep, paying forward all of my hard lessons.

01:12:45.120 I love to be able to give you advice and tell you things. Cause I'm like, yeah, I learned

01:12:49.340 that the hard way. Now I'm going to save you the headache of dealing with that. So

01:12:54.080 kind of, I think there's another lesson here too. Cause I've, I've noticed that there's a lot

01:12:58.420 of men who listen to the podcast and are banded and connected with us in some way that are timid

01:13:03.420 or apprehensive about trying new things, whether that's building a canoe or going to the gym

01:13:10.380 for the first time or getting involved in jujitsu. And I'm telling you what, and this was just

01:13:15.200 reaffirmed through our relationship on Instagram of all places that any community that a man is

01:13:21.860 interested in getting involved with, whether it's woodworking, canoe building, jujitsu, whatever,

01:13:26.320 pick, pick your poison. There's an entire community who wants you to be part of it.

01:13:32.040 Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that's been one of the, I guess, shocking surprises for me in the last

01:13:40.280 few years. I never thought I'd be welcomed into this community and it's the opposite. It's that

01:13:46.420 people not only want to make friends and know people that have common interests, but that instead

01:13:53.520 of being timid, when you put yourself into that community and say, Hey, I'm here and I'm going to make

01:13:59.500 a boat or I'm here and I'm, you know, whatever it is, X, Y, Z people respond like, Oh, Hey, Oh, great.

01:14:05.480 Oh you, yeah. You're not just backing into it and slinging in like, Hey, you know, but you actually

01:14:10.640 have a sort of a voice and Instagram is awesome for that. You can find someone who shares any kind

01:14:18.000 of interest and dive right in. So I agree. Well, I remember when we started, I got a bunch of posts

01:14:24.340 or, or responses or DMS or whatever. Uh, I think the first, the first day, January 1st,

01:14:29.360 we built the strong back, me and a friend of mine and a bunch of people had messaged, Oh,

01:14:34.980 you should follow this guy. And I'm like, okay, yeah. Follow this guy. Okay, sure. So I followed

01:14:38.960 you and I think you're building the, is it the zebra canoe? Is that, is that what you call it?

01:14:42.600 Yeah. Zebra wood. Yeah. Zebra wood. That's right. Uh, which is incredible. Absolutely incredible.

01:14:48.380 And I'm like, okay, yeah, I'll follow this guy. And I, I think I followed you. And then,

01:14:52.400 and then I sent you a message and I said, Hey, you know, I, I really appreciate what you're doing.

01:14:55.700 You've given me a lot of inspirations. It's very cool. We're building our own canoe. And then you

01:15:00.460 reached out and, you know, we formed a bit of a friendship online, which is what it takes. Like

01:15:04.980 just put yourself out there and just thrust yourself into what you're doing and be excited about it.

01:15:09.520 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And the same thing happened to me in, in writing a book and that I was always

01:15:14.200 afraid to even write authors or talk to people who'd written, I know you've done a lot of

01:15:18.280 writing too. And, and I've been amazed at the generosity of other authors. Like I just sent

01:15:22.940 a DM on Instagram to Nick Offerman, um, who, you know, Ron Swanson, right. And I, I was like, Hey,

01:15:29.640 I know you built a canoe in the last episode of parks and recreation. And Hey, I built one too. And

01:15:34.600 now I'm writing a book about it. Would you like to read my book? And, um, he was like, sure.

01:15:39.980 I sent him my book and he read it and he wrote like a nice blurb for the back cover. And, um,

01:15:44.520 I was just amazed that simply by putting myself out there and saying, I did this thing and I'm doing

01:15:49.600 this thing. And as a human or man to man, would you like to engage in that with me? It's amazing

01:15:56.380 how, even if someone's a celebrity or, you know, has a lot of followers and you'd wonder, well,

01:16:01.820 they'll never write me back. We're all just people here trying to get by every day, you know, and find

01:16:08.240 things that inspire us and motivate us. And so I've just been really heartened, not just the woodworking

01:16:12.660 community and Instagram, but, but authors as well. Um, yeah, yeah. It's great. Yeah. Nick,

01:16:18.580 Nick has actually agreed to come on the podcast as well. He's, I think he's in the process of writing

01:16:22.640 a book himself. And so he's going to wrap up the writing of that book and then we're going to have

01:16:26.200 him on the show. I think you've got with the release of the book, which is the 27th, is that

01:16:31.620 right? The 27th? Yes. I think you've got a virtual, uh, event with Nick as well. Can you tell us a little

01:16:37.080 bit about that? Yeah. At 7 PM Eastern on April 27th. Uh, that's the day my book is

01:16:42.460 officially released into the world. Um, which is the day this podcast will be released by the way.

01:16:46.820 So if you're listening to this right now, it's going to be tonight. So tonight at 7 PM, I'm doing

01:16:52.220 a zoom, uh, with Nick Offerman and it'll be about an hour conversation, I suppose. And, um, we, you

01:16:59.260 know, we're just going to riff and talk like you and I are doing. And so the way people can get a

01:17:04.740 ticket for the event is to buy a copy of the book. There's a link on my Instagram profile, which is

01:17:09.860 Pressler Woodshop, P R E S Z L E R. That link takes you to my website and you can register for the zoom

01:17:16.720 with me and Nick. Um, and then on the 28th, the next day I'm doing another zoom at 7 PM with the

01:17:22.300 actor, Matt Bomer, who read the audio book for me. So, uh, yeah, so I'll have a couple events,

01:17:28.960 um, to sort of announce the book into the world. I guess it's the book's birthday.

01:17:34.200 Well, man, I got to tell you, I'm excited about what you're doing. I've read the book. I've listened

01:17:38.840 to part of it as well. I did a combo actually listen slash read. Um, and I just want to tell

01:17:45.000 you, I'm inspired by what you've done. I know you get messages like this, I'm sure all the time,

01:17:48.120 but I'm inspired by what you've done. You have personally impacted my life and my relationship

01:17:53.900 with my son. And I am very grateful for that. And I, and I really appreciate you taking some time

01:17:59.080 to join us today. Thank you for having me. And that means the world to hear that. I mean,

01:18:02.780 that makes writing the book worth it for me. I just want it to affect people's lives,

01:18:07.780 especially fathers and their sons, uh, by sharing my story. So I'm really happy to hear that Ryan.

01:18:13.380 And I'm glad to have you as a friend and a fellow canoe builder. So someday we'll have to paddle

01:18:18.460 together. We'll connect. I know we will. Thanks Trent. Appreciate you brother. All right. Thanks Ryan.

01:18:24.680 Man. There you go. My conversation with Trent Pressler. I hope you enjoyed that one. Uh,

01:18:28.760 make sure you check out his book little and often I've read this book deeply impact

01:18:32.700 full to me. It's quickly become one of my favorite books and a little different than normally you,

01:18:37.280 you might read in this, in the self-help genre, like so many of us do. So check out that book.

01:18:42.900 Uh, go, go look at his, look at his boats, look at his canoes. They're, they're so incredible.

01:18:49.820 And he's given me a lot of inspiration, not only inspiration for what my son and I,

01:18:53.580 my oldest son and I are trying to do, but he's also given me a lot of insight. He's

01:18:57.200 corresponded with me. He's told me, you know, he he's called me down when I thought I'd mess

01:19:01.960 things up. Uh, he he's become a friend of mine and somebody that I, I highly, highly respect

01:19:08.160 and admire because he's chosen to take this path. That isn't admittedly again, something that he

01:19:13.360 thought he would, he would be on. So, uh, I think you're going to get a lot of inspiration from this

01:19:17.360 guy as well, whether you decide to build a canoe or, uh, or, or, or a chest for your, your son or

01:19:23.740 your daughter or a bed, I don't know, or maybe it's not building something at all. And, you know,

01:19:28.900 maybe it's just learning how to develop a new skill. You're going to get a lot of inspiration

01:19:33.460 from, from this gentleman. So check out his book little and often comes out today. Uh, he talked about

01:19:38.560 his, uh, book release virtual, uh, uh, meeting with Nick Offerman. So check that out. If you have the,

01:19:45.320 the time and the capacity to do that. And, uh, let me know what you thought about the podcast,

01:19:49.960 what you thought about the conversation, what, what you liked best, please share it,

01:19:53.480 leave a rating and review that goes a long way. And then of course, check out our battle planning

01:19:57.260 app, 12 week battle planner.com. All right, guys, we'll be back tomorrow for our ask me anything,

01:20:03.860 but until then go out there, take action and become a man. You are meant to be.

01:20:08.180 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

01:20:12.800 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - April 27, 2021

TRENT PRESZLER ｜ Little and Often Soon Becomes Great

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