Order of Man - True Believer ｜ JACK CARR

00:00:00.180 Gents, today I'm joined by my friend and repeat guest and former Navy SEAL, Mr. Jack Carr.

00:00:05.980 There's just certain people that when you meet them, there seems to be a connection

00:00:09.540 like you've been friends for a very long time.

00:00:11.860 I'm honored that Jack is joining me again to talk about the second installment of his

00:00:16.760 thriller series.

00:00:17.620 It's called True Believer, but we talk about a whole lot more than just that.

00:00:21.160 We dive into the pros and cons of social media, falling into comparison with others, learning

00:00:26.960 to be a professional in all of your endeavors, the trap of identifying with your occupation

00:00:33.060 and of course a whole lot more.

00:00:34.780 You're a man of action.

00:00:36.160 You live life to the fullest.

00:00:37.620 Embrace your fears and boldly chart your own path.

00:00:40.560 When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time.

00:00:43.740 Every time, you are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:00:50.080 This is your life.

00:00:51.160 This is who you are.

00:00:52.600 This is who you will become at the end of the day and after all is said and done.

00:00:57.340 You can call yourself a man.

00:00:59.660 Guys, what's up?

00:01:00.560 What's going on today?

00:01:01.320 I hope all is well.

00:01:02.260 My name is Ryan Mickler and I am the host and the founder of this podcast and the movement

00:01:06.460 that is Order of Man.

00:01:08.300 I want to welcome you to this thing.

00:01:09.640 We've been going strong for just about five years now and whether you've been with us for

00:01:14.520 that amount of time or have joined us somewhere along the way, you are part of the movement

00:01:19.580 to reclaim and restore masculinity in a society that seems to be increasingly dismissive of what

00:01:26.220 it means to be a man.

00:01:27.120 So we need you in this battle.

00:01:29.000 We need more men in this battle and I'm honored that you're going to be joining with us today.

00:01:33.000 Uh, the whole goal of what we're doing here with a podcast is to have powerful conversations

00:01:38.760 with highly, highly successful men.

00:01:41.020 These are athletes, scholars, warriors, New York times, bestselling authors.

00:01:46.920 Uh, and it's my goal to have a conversation with these guys and distill their best practices,

00:01:54.180 their successes, their failures, their lessons, distill those down into a conversation.

00:02:00.680 That's going to serve you well so you can be a more capable father, husband, business

00:02:05.080 owner, leader inside of your community and every other facet of life in which you're showing

00:02:09.360 up.

00:02:09.740 So we've got a great one lined up for you today with Jack Carr.

00:02:12.420 He's a former Navy SEAL and a very, very successful author.

00:02:15.600 I'm going to introduce you to him, uh, just in just a minute, uh, before I do, I want to introduce

00:02:21.300 you as if you don't already know, and some of you may not, uh, my friends and fellow Maine

00:02:27.960 residents.

00:02:28.460 Now I say Maine residents.

00:02:29.540 I'm a resident of Maine.

00:02:30.720 These guys are Mainers. 1.00

00:02:31.580 They've been here for a very, very long time.

00:02:34.440 Uh, they are origin.

00:02:36.260 These guys make everything in America, geese, rash guards for jujitsu.

00:02:41.480 Uh, they just came out with their denim lineup and their denim is phenomenal.

00:02:45.360 It's amazing.

00:02:46.340 And then of course they've got their boots as well, which I believe they launched last

00:02:52.420 week.

00:02:52.700 So if you are not familiar with what they're doing specifically with regards to their denim

00:02:58.240 and their boot lineup, then go check out origin, Maine origin, Maine, see what they're all

00:03:03.220 about.

00:03:03.680 They got a pre-order on their boots.

00:03:05.880 I actually had the opportunity to make some mine are about, I would say 40% made by me and 60% made

00:03:14.240 by, uh, the, uh, extremely talented Henry over at origin.

00:03:18.580 He helped me out and walk me through the process.

00:03:20.720 A hundred percent made in America bison boots.

00:03:23.340 These things are phenomenal and they feel amazing.

00:03:26.060 So go check it out again, origin, Maine.com, and then use the code order or D E R at checkout.

00:03:32.880 And you'll get a discount on everything you purchase over there.

00:03:35.700 Uh, okay.

00:03:36.580 With that said, let's get into the conversation again, Jack Carr.

00:03:40.600 Um, he's back for round two on the podcast.

00:03:42.620 If you don't know who Jack is, uh, he spent 20 years in Navy special warfare as an enlisted

00:03:49.280 seal sniper, uh, eventually moving into a troop and unit commander with multiple combat deployments.

00:03:56.060 And then upon returning and retiring from the Navy, he went on to establish a very, very

00:04:01.040 successful writing career.

00:04:02.540 Many of you are familiar with his works, uh, his first book terminal list and his second

00:04:06.780 true believer.

00:04:07.780 And he's got a third book coming out very shortly called savage son, which will be the, uh,

00:04:12.340 I believe it's a trilogy.

00:04:13.980 I don't know if he's got a, I know he has a fourth book.

00:04:16.180 I'm not sure it's part of the same series though.

00:04:18.200 Uh, anyways, this is something writing is something he's, he's always wanted to do.

00:04:21.920 He knew that he would do this after a service.

00:04:24.260 And in fact, his books are two of the very few fictional books that I've ever read all

00:04:30.820 the way through.

00:04:31.600 And these are two books that I just, I wasn't able to put down.

00:04:34.540 Uh, he draws upon his lessons from the military and his extensive training and the research

00:04:40.280 that he does traveling all over the globe to figure out what he's going to put inside

00:04:44.280 of these books.

00:04:44.860 Uh, and he creates powerful stories that I think every man will enjoy reading.

00:04:50.420 So I hope you guys enjoy listening in on our conversation, uh, as much as I enjoyed having

00:04:55.540 it.

00:04:57.140 Jack, what's going on?

00:04:58.040 Thanks for joining me on the, uh, the order of man podcast.

00:05:00.280 Once again, dude, I am so fired up to be talking to you.

00:05:03.420 We don't get to talk often enough, but I do follow your, your, uh, your moves and your

00:05:07.960 exploits and everything you have going on on the social channels.

00:05:10.860 So I feel like we talk more than we actually do, but thank you so much for having me on.

00:05:14.600 It is, it is interesting that we can be so connected on social media, so disconnected

00:05:19.320 yet so connected.

00:05:20.340 Right.

00:05:20.680 And then when you see an old friend, um, it feels like you can pick up where, where it

00:05:25.480 left off.

00:05:25.960 So it's a good thing.

00:05:27.300 Yeah, exactly.

00:05:27.780 It's not like, Hey, what have you been doing for the last three months?

00:05:29.800 Cause you've been following along and seeing where they've been going, who they've been

00:05:32.500 talking to, like all sorts of different things, what they've been thinking about.

00:05:35.300 So it's a, it's a very, it's interesting, but it's an odd animal in so many respects.

00:05:39.640 It really is one that I'm still very new to, as you know, with no background in it.

00:05:44.320 Uh, prior to jumping in with both feet, I guess, uh, when the first book launched, but

00:05:49.420 it's a, it's a very interesting, uh, animal with a lot of different dynamics out there.

00:05:55.200 So it's, uh, but it's all, but it's good.

00:05:57.260 Yeah.

00:05:57.480 It's, uh, it's working out.

00:05:58.920 Well, you seem like you've immersed yourself well in, in the world of social media.

00:06:01.980 Uh, what do you attribute a lot of that success to?

00:06:04.620 You know, I think it is that I didn't have a background in it that I kept it not only at

00:06:08.600 arm's length.

00:06:09.080 I just never even really thought about it.

00:06:10.740 You know, it was a, uh, I didn't know the difference between a friend and a like and

00:06:15.240 a post and a tweet, you know, it was just all this thing that other people did that

00:06:19.840 I did not want to do.

00:06:21.320 I had no interest in, didn't have any time for.

00:06:23.400 And when I was in the military, as you know, you have to be focused on that mission and

00:06:27.520 you're focused on the guys as a, uh, as a leader.

00:06:29.600 So you owe them and their families and the mission and the country.

00:06:31.980 Uh, but I, so I never paid any attention to the social media stuff, plus the security

00:06:36.180 aspects.

00:06:37.080 And it didn't seem at that time that, uh, it wouldn't do any good to have any sort of

00:06:42.200 a social media presence.

00:06:43.580 Now it's a little different.

00:06:45.080 Now, if you come in and you've grown up with social media, you've grown up sharing or over

00:06:51.060 sharing, that's how you communicate with friends.

00:06:53.480 And now if you're on, let's say the, the darker side of special operations or in intelligence

00:06:57.800 circles, and you don't have a social media profile that you can, someone who can go back

00:07:02.200 and look at and see your history, then you're the outlier.

00:07:05.320 So it's a very interesting thing when you're looking at it, when you're kind of red selling 1.00

00:07:09.560 it from the enemy's perspective.

00:07:11.200 Um, it's a whole, whole new world.

00:07:12.760 Plus you throw in some facial recognition technology into all of that.

00:07:15.560 And, uh, these are all things I'm going to explore in future novels.

00:07:18.260 But, um, you asked about how I've been dealing with social media.

00:07:22.080 And I think it's because, um, cause I didn't have that background.

00:07:25.940 I didn't have anything to fall back on like, Oh, this is how we did it at my last job.

00:07:30.640 Or this is a, this is how you always do it.

00:07:32.680 Or this is just what's done in the space.

00:07:34.860 Like I had no idea, you know, I didn't even know that the word space meant, you know, I

00:07:38.760 thought it meant a compartment on a ship or something.

00:07:40.740 Right.

00:07:41.520 And, uh, so I just jumped in, looked at it as I would a problem on the battlefield or an

00:07:45.440 opportunity on the battlefield.

00:07:47.500 And, uh, I just looked at it without any, uh, without a tainted lens.

00:07:51.620 It was just a clear lens looking at it.

00:07:53.480 Hey, here's an opportunity to connect with people.

00:07:55.020 Uh, how do I do it in a positive way?

00:07:57.100 I don't know how to be anybody, but myself anyway, but just how do I maximize this opportunity

00:08:01.780 to connect with readers and, uh, you know, build this readership and build this following

00:08:06.660 for the, for the novels and maybe connect with people in a positive way, um, as I go.

00:08:11.180 So I think that's why it's been, or people tell me anyway, that it's, uh, that it's been

00:08:14.800 successful.

00:08:15.700 Yeah.

00:08:15.800 I mean, it seems like you're doing it right, but you know, like any tool you can use it

00:08:18.780 effectively, which it seems like you have, or you can use it to, uh, as a negative,

00:08:23.280 right.

00:08:23.640 Something to draw you down, something to, uh, allow a lot of toxicity or negativity

00:08:28.720 into your circle and into your life.

00:08:30.320 Uh, the other thing I've noticed is so many people consume themselves with it, uh, to the

00:08:35.040 point where they can't maintain focus on the mission or the task at hand.

00:08:38.500 And it becomes a real detriment rather than the powerful tool that it can be.

00:08:42.760 Sure.

00:08:43.180 Sure.

00:08:43.340 It's a tool and it's very important to recognize that I think, and especially talk to kids

00:08:46.780 about it, uh, and talk to kids about, Hey, this is a, this is a tool.

00:08:50.020 Essentially it's an advertising platform, whether you have a business or not.

00:08:53.320 And that's how I frame it to the kids, especially our daughter who is, uh, 14 now.

00:08:57.840 Um, and I say, Hey, even if it's a personal account of a friend or a personal account of

00:09:02.520 a friend's family, that's an advertisement for that family.

00:09:05.460 They're not showing you what's going really going on behind those doors, which is probably

00:09:09.180 chaos like everybody else.

00:09:10.840 Um, but there's taking a one snapshot to advertise something.

00:09:14.780 And in case of a personal account, it's a lifestyle, uh, or an attitude, um, that, uh, that they

00:09:21.460 want to project to the world that one split second out of the entire day.

00:09:25.820 So I, I try to frame it as a, Hey, this is an advertisement, whether it's a business or

00:09:29.880 not.

00:09:30.300 Um, but you're right.

00:09:31.220 You can use it positive, negative.

00:09:32.880 And what really surprises me is how many people are so negative on social media.

00:09:39.660 And I see you post about it.

00:09:40.660 I think you did one yesterday that I really, uh, that I really liked.

00:09:43.040 Um, but I see you post about it, um, because you're very outspoken in a lot of, in a lot

00:09:47.440 of ways.

00:09:48.040 And, uh, and so people can, can latch on.

00:09:50.960 And, uh, for me, it's, you know, I talk, you know, I talk about books.

00:09:54.580 I go back, talk about terrorism, talk about my thoughts around different events that, uh,

00:09:58.120 that impacted me and the novels and things like that.

00:10:00.920 Take people on this journey, very transparent journey into the world of publishing and writing.

00:10:05.600 Um, but there, even in that, there are people that jump on and say negative and sometimes

00:10:09.480 crazy things.

00:10:10.260 And I just walk feature block, you know, delete block.

00:10:14.600 So I'm a, I'm a big fan of, uh, of that feature, but, uh, you know, I would never jump

00:10:19.440 on someone's account or, uh, you know, you're talking about negative reviews, like negative

00:10:23.820 reviews for novels and things like that.

00:10:25.260 Luckily, you know, my books don't have many, but there are a few out there and, uh, it's

00:10:29.520 fascinating.

00:10:30.000 Like how many people would take that time to be so negative.

00:10:34.060 Um, it's, it's really astounding.

00:10:36.240 Like I would never do that.

00:10:37.760 If I didn't like something, I just wouldn't leave a review or say something.

00:10:40.900 Exactly.

00:10:41.680 Well, that's because you're, I was going to say that's because you're successful, but

00:10:44.980 actually, I don't know if that's the case.

00:10:46.600 I think that's one indicator that you probably are successful, right?

00:10:51.060 That you're not so consumed with what you don't like or nitpicking things that are blown

00:10:56.760 out of proportion or taken out of context.

00:10:58.860 Uh, it's absolutely ridiculous what some people do.

00:11:01.740 It's unfortunate.

00:11:02.640 You know, the more I, the more that I'm on social media, the more I just want to podcast

00:11:07.400 and that's it.

00:11:08.220 Right.

00:11:08.740 No, I get it.

00:11:09.460 We can have conversations with people we like.

00:11:11.380 In fact, I even had a conversation with a guy.

00:11:13.360 We had a great civil discussion about, um, some conservation efforts.

00:11:17.340 He's not a hunter.

00:11:18.420 He's not opposed to certain types of hunting, but he's not a hunter himself.

00:11:23.240 And we had a very respectful, civil conversation about something.

00:11:28.860 That seems to be so polarizing on social media and just creates this black hole of negativity

00:11:35.720 and animosity and polarization.

00:11:37.740 It's crazy.

00:11:38.900 Right now.

00:11:39.620 And I, you know, so I choose, you probably noticed, I choose not to show certain parts

00:11:43.120 of the hunt because once again, that snapshot of someone's, you know, positive day when they're

00:11:47.460 all done up and they have the filters on and then, you know, your, your teenage kid is

00:11:51.060 looking at it and saying, Oh my gosh, look at how either pretty or look at that other family

00:11:54.500 gets to do, or, Oh man, why don't we do that?

00:11:56.640 Or why don't I look like that or whatever, whatever it is, it's that same thing.

00:11:59.840 I don't want to show that one snapshot of the hunt that doesn't really capture what

00:12:04.840 goes into it, what goes into that preparation, what goes into that adventure, what you're

00:12:08.740 doing, why you're doing it.

00:12:10.340 Um, and so I, so I don't want to essentially give the other side ammunition to, uh, to

00:12:15.860 use against something that is so, uh, near and dear to, to my heart and, uh, something

00:12:20.300 that's very important to our family.

00:12:21.520 And I think very important to, uh, what being a good citizen and providing for your family

00:12:26.360 and just understanding, uh, how, how, how we live and how, why you're here today.

00:12:31.160 And that's because once, once upon a time you had ancestors that were very good at providing

00:12:35.360 for the family through hunting or for, uh, defending the tribe.

00:12:38.640 And that's why, and the more we distance ourselves from that, um, distance ourselves from the

00:12:43.400 earth, um, the more, uh, apt people are to make snap judgments based on one tweet or one

00:12:49.920 photo.

00:12:50.320 So I try to be very cognizant of that, um, uh, as, as I post and, and try to, I try to be

00:12:56.800 thoughtful.

00:12:57.360 Yeah, no, that's, I think that's a good idea.

00:12:59.380 And I think the fact that you said not giving anybody ammunition, right.

00:13:03.020 And that's what they see is they see you.

00:13:04.600 I mean, let's be frank, hunting, you are taking the life of an animal period.

00:13:09.440 Like that is, that is the story, right?

00:13:11.740 But if you take it out of context, it sounds brutal.

00:13:15.480 It's, it, it sounds wrong, morally wrong.

00:13:19.120 But when you put it in the context of the preparation and the hunt itself and the care

00:13:25.380 of that animal and the conservation efforts that went into maintaining the lands where these

00:13:30.240 animals could thrive and the humane, uh, way we go about harvesting these animals, then

00:13:37.860 it changes the story and it gives more context.

00:13:41.460 That's important.

00:13:42.600 These aren't trivial matters that, that, that context of a hunt is very important.

00:13:47.500 It's, it's funny though.

00:13:48.360 We were talking about a, um, a mutual friend before we hit the record button, Andy Stumpf.

00:13:52.940 And he said something very similar about social media and he's not really all that active

00:13:58.100 on social media, uh, but he had said something to the effect of, it's hard for him to post,

00:14:04.900 for example, a jump because everybody sees a 17 or a 30 second or a 60 second jump or whatever

00:14:10.800 it ends up being.

00:14:11.860 And, and they never see the context of the days and the week long hikes and the trip and

00:14:19.020 the planning and every other jump in controlled environments leading up to that.

00:14:22.800 And not only do they get a false sense of what it takes, it actually paints in his case,

00:14:28.600 a very dangerous perspective, uh, regarding the pursuit that he's, he's decided to, to,

00:14:35.260 to pursue to go down.

00:14:37.300 Uh, and it gives us this unrealistic expectation of, of what it takes.

00:14:41.080 It's dangerous.

00:14:42.080 Oh yeah.

00:14:42.400 I've talked to him a lot about that, but, uh, it is dangerous.

00:14:45.080 It's dangerous with as much preparation as he, he has and done and everything else, let

00:14:51.860 alone somebody who's an amateur who just thinks, Oh, you just throw on a little squirrel suit

00:14:55.640 and jump off the edge of a, uh, 5,000 foot cliff.

00:14:58.540 Like what's the problem?

00:14:59.760 That couldn't be difficult.

00:15:00.940 No, he's a pro.

00:15:01.860 He's a pro.

00:15:02.380 I love that guy.

00:15:03.220 Yeah.

00:15:03.840 Well, I think that's, uh, one of the things that makes a pro a pro, or you can recognize

00:15:09.100 a pro when things look easy.

00:15:10.680 Uh, and you have a tendency to maybe say, Oh, he's, he's a natural, uh, one might say

00:15:17.240 that about you.

00:15:17.920 Oh, he's, he's a natural writer or he's a gifted writer.

00:15:21.460 Uh, that's how we begin to understand that this is somebody who's not maybe necessarily

00:15:26.760 gifted, but they've put in thousands and thousands of hours and effort into mastering

00:15:32.240 a craft.

00:15:33.040 Oh yeah.

00:15:33.880 Yeah.

00:15:34.060 I know the overnight success thing.

00:15:35.400 There, there is really no such thing as an overnight success.

00:15:39.200 Uh, and if you're saying that about somebody, then, uh, you're probably using it as an

00:15:43.300 excuse for why, uh, you're not where you want to be.

00:15:46.220 Yeah.

00:15:46.480 Good point.

00:15:47.060 Um, but, uh, but yeah, that, that, that part's interesting.

00:15:49.660 So growing up, you know, I read all these novels that, uh, the types that I'm writing

00:15:55.000 today.

00:15:55.620 Uh, and I knew from a very early age that one, I was going to serve my country in uniform

00:15:58.800 as a seal.

00:15:59.400 And two, I was going to write fiction in this genre.

00:16:02.100 And as you can see behind me on the video, for those that are watching my video, those that's,

00:16:06.340 uh, it's just part of the library.

00:16:07.700 A lot of those go three deep, uh, books.

00:16:10.300 So I need a, need a larger library.

00:16:11.820 Oh, wow.

00:16:12.040 Yeah.

00:16:12.740 And, uh, but I have those books that I read growing up, all the Tom Clancy's, the David

00:16:16.560 Morell's and Nelson DeMille's, the AJ Quinnell's, the JC Pollock's, all these guys in the eighties

00:16:20.540 that typically had protagonists with backgrounds that I wanted to have one day.

00:16:24.160 So back then they were typically in a special forces guy in Vietnam or a CIA guy in Vietnam.

00:16:28.960 They had that, that was the background in the, as people, as protagonists were developed

00:16:33.180 in the eighties.

00:16:33.960 That was their background that gave them the skills necessary to do what they needed

00:16:37.480 to do in the world of fiction.

00:16:39.160 So with no internet back then and not being able to Google Navy SEAL and have an unending

00:16:44.400 supply of information, uh, the nonfiction that I could read, I could get through in about

00:16:48.840 an hour back when I was eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 years old.

00:16:51.720 But these novels that had protagonists with these backgrounds, I could dive into those

00:16:56.280 all the time.

00:16:57.520 And my mom was librarians were surrounded by books.

00:17:00.120 So really that laid the foundation for me as I was that those guys were my early professors

00:17:05.480 in the art of storytelling.

00:17:07.240 Uh, of course I knew where I wanted to go.

00:17:09.100 So I was been thinking about it for all those years.

00:17:10.880 And then I had that study, academic study of terrorism, insurgencies, warfare, and then

00:17:16.020 the practical application on the battlefield after nine 11 in Iraq and Afghanistan.

00:17:19.560 And then as I got out, all those three things that academic study, the experience in combat

00:17:24.200 and all those authors I read growing up all really gave me the foundation to move forward

00:17:28.740 and do what I wanted to do next.

00:17:30.360 So I feel very fortunate that, uh, that I developed a love of reading at a very early

00:17:34.460 age and also knew that what I wanted to do from an early age as well.

00:17:38.120 Yeah.

00:17:38.220 I think that's a blessing because I mean, I can't tell you how many men I talk with on

00:17:41.860 a daily basis who have no idea of what they want to do.

00:17:45.220 And these are 30, 35, 40 year old, and sometimes older men who have gone decades without having

00:17:52.220 a clear understanding of what it is that they want to do.

00:17:54.500 So you definitely had that blessing and, and also, uh, you know, props to your, to your

00:18:00.200 mom for influencing you that way and putting you in that environment.

00:18:03.520 And I think, man, if, if there isn't a better story of what it means to be a parent and how

00:18:09.480 important it is to give your children opportunities.

00:18:12.580 I mean, I don't know what is that's, that's pretty incredible.

00:18:15.980 No.

00:18:16.100 And it's all about, you know, finding that purpose, finding that next mission in life,

00:18:19.540 which is, uh, what I tapped into in the second novel and in true believer, the protagonist

00:18:24.120 needed to find that next mission in life, find that purpose, learn to live again.

00:18:27.820 And I saw so many people leaving the military and my particular slice of that was special

00:18:32.500 operations.

00:18:32.940 And I saw guys have a really hard time making that transition because they'd been involved

00:18:37.060 in something that was, that was so visceral.

00:18:39.300 They'd be so focused on it to essentially the detriment of all else, family, anything

00:18:43.700 else, uh, because that's what we talked about.

00:18:45.980 That's what you owe the mission.

00:18:47.120 That's what you owe the guys to your, to your right and left.

00:18:49.300 And many times to come to move on.

00:18:50.780 A lot of them want to try to replicate that in the private sector instead of saying, and

00:18:55.660 when I, and I recognize that.

00:18:57.140 And so I said, okay, this is one chapter of my life.

00:18:59.920 I was a seal.

00:19:00.780 I am not a seal going forward.

00:19:02.560 That certainly informs my writing.

00:19:04.080 It's, uh, it helps help build me into who I am today, but I'm not going to live back

00:19:08.700 there.

00:19:09.280 Um, I'm not going to live back there.

00:19:11.040 Um, and I'm going to move forward, take care of my family with this new purpose, this new

00:19:15.760 mission, and that's taking care of the family and doing that through this passion of mine

00:19:19.980 for writing.

00:19:20.640 So, uh, I think it's very important for people to, it doesn't have to be military.

00:19:24.020 It can be any transition, but identifying what's important, identifying that next mission

00:19:28.440 in life, finding that passion and that purpose as they move forward.

00:19:31.820 That's, uh, that is the vital importance.

00:19:35.380 Well, I think, uh, one of the takes you just said there too, is that you, you didn't identify

00:19:40.460 with being a Navy SEAL.

00:19:41.760 Let me, let me rephrase that.

00:19:43.040 It's maybe not the right word.

00:19:44.040 You didn't wrap up your identity in that thing indefinitely, right?

00:19:48.300 And that's what we fall into.

00:19:49.520 If you ask, if we did a little, an experiment today and we said, all right, I just want you

00:19:53.620 to go out and ask 10 or 20 people to introduce themselves.

00:19:58.740 The first thing those 10 or 20 people would say is they would lead with their occupation.

00:20:04.280 Most of them, if not all of them, well, I'm a, I'm a writer or I'm a, uh, a soldier.

00:20:08.440 I'm a Navy SEAL.

00:20:09.680 I'm a owner.

00:20:11.600 I'm a CEO.

00:20:12.340 I'm an entrepreneur or whatever.

00:20:13.240 So we're so wrapped up in the identity of what we do.

00:20:17.120 And then when that thing is taken away from us, either voluntarily or involuntarily, it's

00:20:22.560 really difficult for us to connect back or, or have any sort of congruence in our life

00:20:26.980 or, or fulfillment because the thing that we wrapped ourselves up in is now gone.

00:20:32.100 It's no longer with us.

00:20:33.660 No, exactly.

00:20:34.460 And I think I won't say, you know, so when I was in, of course I identified as a SEAL

00:20:38.160 identify like, that's what I do.

00:20:39.680 That's what I wanted to do.

00:20:40.780 Uh, I wanted to be a better SEAL each and every day.

00:20:42.980 What do we call it?

00:20:43.600 Earning your Trident every day.

00:20:44.800 So for me, that was physically, um, and, you know, mentally by studying the enemy,

00:20:49.780 studying warfare, studying insurgencies, studying where we were going in the world, uh, why

00:20:53.380 we were going there, uh, studying, studying the strategic side of it so that I could then

00:20:57.400 translate it to the guys so that if they had questions about it, Hey, why are we here?

00:21:01.540 What, Hey, this is, you know, the, this route Irish is worse this time than it was last 0.82

00:21:05.120 time, you know, what the, what are we doing here?

00:21:06.960 Um, so to be able to, to explain that in a way that makes sense, Hey, this is our mission.

00:21:11.180 This is why we were here.

00:21:12.320 Uh, and that's what we need to focus on.

00:21:13.960 Um, so, so it is important for me to be able to, to study that sort of thing and, uh, and

00:21:19.080 make myself a better leader, combat leader, uh, each and every day.

00:21:22.900 So, um, but as I transitioned, yes, that's where I made the distinction.

00:21:28.100 Like, okay, that is what I did going forward.

00:21:30.660 I do something else.

00:21:31.700 I have a new mission in life.

00:21:33.120 Uh, it's time to pursue that next passion as I turn the page on what I once was.

00:21:37.600 So, um, it's always going to be a part of me.

00:21:39.560 I always be obviously informed on my writing.

00:21:41.260 It's a very big part of who I, who I am today, but, uh, I am, I'm moving forward.

00:21:46.380 I think that's what's most important.

00:21:48.160 Well, and I think you, you alluded to this as well as that it, it, it doesn't completely

00:21:52.420 define you, right?

00:21:53.380 It's, it's a, it's a part of who you are and that's, that's all it is.

00:21:56.640 And it will always be there, but it's deeper than that.

00:21:59.740 It's, it, there, there's significantly more if you peel it back.

00:22:02.680 And I think too many people are one dimensional as opposed to trying to be well-rounded.

00:22:06.580 You see it on social media to come back to that is like these, these entrepreneur types,

00:22:11.540 uh, and, and their whole world revolves around starting a business and hacking and growth

00:22:18.020 strategies and how they can capitalize.

00:22:20.580 Yeah.

00:22:20.780 It's, it's just wrapped around that, that whole thing.

00:22:23.260 And it's like, man, where's the time with the family, where's the time for pursuits

00:22:28.580 that maybe aren't, aren't money or profit driven, but that you just enjoy like archery

00:22:34.060 or hunting or jujitsu or jumping off ledges or whatever your thing is.

00:22:38.400 Like, where is this other stuff?

00:22:40.620 And you ask these guys and it's like, oh yeah, no room for that.

00:22:43.320 You know, I'm hustling, I'm grinding.

00:22:45.100 And I think we face real serious problems when we're so narrowly focused on that one thing

00:22:51.040 that we can't think about what else is happening or what else is going on around us.

00:22:55.240 Yeah.

00:22:55.360 And that's something I need to improve on actually.

00:22:57.060 It's a, cause when I was in the military, um, you know, the, I guess the excuse is that,

00:23:02.460 Hey, you're, you're taking guys down range.

00:23:04.340 So that pendulum has to be on that and 100% has to be on those guys on the mission.

00:23:09.400 Um, because that's what you owe them and their families.

00:23:11.540 So, okay.

00:23:12.860 So when I got out and started this, cause this is very, this is a, an entrepreneurial venture,

00:23:17.040 which I didn't really, uh, anticipate or think about as I was getting out or as I was

00:23:21.360 writing the first novel, I thought you just wrote and then you sent it off and then it

00:23:25.000 got published and then you wrote the next one.

00:23:26.480 I had no idea that you needed to do branding and co-branding and advertising and marketing

00:23:30.740 and you know, all these other things that the social media stuff or whatever, I had no

00:23:35.380 clue.

00:23:36.020 So I just, but when I realized it, I said, oh, okay, now I get what this is.

00:23:39.860 This is also a small business.

00:23:41.300 Just like if you were starting a coffee shop or something else, you have to do all those same

00:23:45.040 things.

00:23:45.400 So how am I going to do it?

00:23:46.660 I'm going to look at it.

00:23:47.320 I'm going to look at the space and I'm going to see how I can do it to the best of my ability,

00:23:51.920 innovate along the way, adapt along the way, just like I would on the battlefield, but look

00:23:55.620 at it with that clear lens.

00:23:57.860 Um, but you know, I did jump in cause I have a tendency to do that all in.

00:24:02.840 Um, and so my wife more than a couple of times has had to say, uh, Hey, uh, you're not

00:24:07.600 taking people down range anymore.

00:24:09.180 Um, it's time for you to be here present with the family.

00:24:12.180 Um, so I do have to kind of kick myself every now and again.

00:24:15.400 And, uh, take a breath, step back and realize that, Hey, Oh, if I don't get this thing out

00:24:20.540 on time, or if I don't, don't do that, you know what?

00:24:22.760 It's not the end of the world.

00:24:24.060 Uh, guys lives aren't hanging in the balance.

00:24:27.060 Uh, and I can, I can take a breath.

00:24:29.060 I can spend time with the family.

00:24:30.200 It's different than leading guys into battle.

00:24:32.680 So, uh, for me, that's probably been the biggest, biggest challenge is recognizing that, articulating

00:24:37.960 that, and then, uh, then acting on it once again, adapting to the changing environment

00:24:42.980 and, uh, and being able to realize that, okay, you know, I can step away from this for a few

00:24:47.920 minutes.

00:24:48.120 I can throw the ball with, uh, with one of our kids.

00:24:49.920 I can go to lacrosse practice.

00:24:51.080 It's, you know, it's not going to, the world's not going to end.

00:24:53.820 No one's going to die if I don't finish this project today or whatever else it is.

00:24:57.720 So it's something that I really do have to concentrate on, uh, and be better at, uh,

00:25:03.480 recognizing and doing.

00:25:05.580 I don't think that's uncommon for high achieving men.

00:25:09.140 I think that's probably part of the reason they are high achieving men is because they

00:25:13.420 know how to fixate on something.

00:25:14.880 And then they know how to attack that thing and go after it and have success.

00:25:19.180 Yeah.

00:25:19.540 We leave a lot of collateral damage in our wake at times.

00:25:22.560 Um, you know, which it would be easy to say that's the price of success, but man, it really

00:25:27.820 is something that we all ought to do a better job considering and then unplugging.

00:25:32.160 I mean, do you feel like you're able to turn it off, uh, completely, or do you feel like

00:25:36.060 you're always on?

00:25:37.660 It's tough.

00:25:38.420 You know, so I'm sitting like when I'm sitting on the couch and we're watching and finally

00:25:41.200 have the kids to bed, grabbing a glass of wine and we're watching a show or whatever.

00:25:44.260 Um, my mind is kind of thinking also about some of the things I need to do either tomorrow

00:25:49.260 or right before I go to bed, or it's just subconsciously thinking about a problem on the written page.

00:25:54.600 Like before I used to solve problems aggressively on the battlefield.

00:25:56.980 Now I do that on the written page and I write the outlines for these things.

00:26:00.120 I don't let a problem or a sticking point stop me.

00:26:03.900 It's just like, okay, kind of XXX in that spot.

00:26:06.640 I know I'm gonna have to figure that out.

00:26:07.760 And I know that I will, I know that I have time.

00:26:09.900 It can percolate.

00:26:10.780 And by the time that I get to that point in the story, as I write, I will have figured

00:26:15.240 this out.

00:26:15.660 I am confident in that.

00:26:17.320 Um, but it's subconsciously that's going in the back of my head, uh, quite a bit.

00:26:21.300 So, um, so I don't know if I can ever turn it really all the way off, but I can kind of

00:26:25.400 push it to the side and be present.

00:26:28.140 Um, like I need to be with my family when I need to be there.

00:26:31.460 So you can manage it.

00:26:32.480 It sounds like.

00:26:33.340 I think so.

00:26:33.920 And I think moving forward, I need to get a lot more disciplined in my approach to scheduling.

00:26:38.060 And in, you know, as I started this, it was, it was a startup and I feel like I had to take

00:26:44.060 advantage of emerging opportunities, um, which meant that being disciplined as far as a schedule

00:26:48.620 went was not advantageous.

00:26:51.000 It was not, uh, the most efficient way to go because I would be stuck in that schedule

00:26:55.120 like you would be if you're a gigantic bureaucracy.

00:26:57.160 So, you know, you're a one person startup and you're moving and you're grinding and you're

00:27:01.640 sprinting, uh, and you can very easily flex and adapt as these opportunities arise.

00:27:07.760 Um, well, that doesn't really play into a schedule of, I'm going to get up, I'm going to work out.

00:27:12.500 I'm going to do my three hours, four hours of writing.

00:27:14.820 I'm going to return emails for an hour.

00:27:17.120 I'm going to, you know, so that didn't really work because podcasts pop up, interviews pop

00:27:20.620 up, radio pops up.

00:27:21.860 That's live.

00:27:23.000 Um, you know, you have to get to put together some sort of a, uh, you know, a graphic or whatever

00:27:26.640 else it is.

00:27:27.260 Like those things don't necessarily adhere to your schedule, but as you get more successful,

00:27:33.080 as you like get this foundation built, then it lends itself more to being able to schedule.

00:27:39.400 But I don't think at this stage where it's the startup phase that, uh, that I'm in a

00:27:43.800 position where I can dictate the schedule.

00:27:46.480 I still need to be agile at this stage.

00:27:48.880 So, um, that's kind of where I am these days.

00:27:51.100 It's a good point.

00:27:51.660 I mean, a lot of guys talk about this idea of work-life balance, right?

00:27:54.780 And striking the perfect balance.

00:27:56.240 And, you know, some people, I think, believe that balance is having equal distribution of

00:28:02.420 your time, energy, and resources in all of the facets of life that you're showing up.

00:28:06.440 I don't look at it like that.

00:28:07.520 I look at it as, you know, you're constantly making micro adjustments based on the situation

00:28:12.900 or the circumstances around you.

00:28:14.400 And so this is what you're talking about.

00:28:15.820 There may be times where it's completely appropriate to dive in headfirst, all in on the writing

00:28:23.260 process because you have to meet a deadline or there's a schedule that needs to be met.

00:28:27.580 And there's times where, you know, we can ease off the gas a little bit and we probably

00:28:31.900 ought to spend some more time at lacrosse practice or coaching a kid or, you know, just

00:28:37.020 being home and being present with them.

00:28:39.700 But man, I don't know what it is about men.

00:28:42.340 And I say, men, I am included in this category is like, it's just hard to be as present sometimes

00:28:52.360 with a family as it is at work.

00:28:54.580 And I think it's because we can quantify a lot of work objectives and goals and we can't

00:28:58.780 quantify necessarily being a better father or being a more engaged husband.

00:29:04.580 Those are harder to quantify, which is why we naturally gravitate towards, I just need more

00:29:08.980 money in the bank account or I need to get more words on the paper or I need to hit this

00:29:12.080 deadline because they're measurable.

00:29:13.680 They're very objective.

00:29:15.600 Exactly.

00:29:16.520 Exactly.

00:29:16.980 But recognizing that, I think that for me anyway, that I need to do better at those other things

00:29:21.060 and doing better at them, even though I can't really quantify it other than, hey, I was

00:29:25.300 there, I was present, I was engaged.

00:29:28.300 Does everybody slump?

00:29:29.060 Is everyone happy?

00:29:30.520 Like those things I can look at.

00:29:32.760 And, you know, I don't want my kids to look back and say, oh, dad was always in the

00:29:36.420 office or dad was always working.

00:29:37.780 So I try to, you know, keep, I mean, here when the kids are at school and then as soon

00:29:44.200 as, you know, pick up time, I try to be there, try to get them to their activities, be right

00:29:49.400 there at those activities, talk to them about their day and not be constantly on my phone

00:29:54.820 because that's the mobile office.

00:29:56.640 You know, that's, that's the, it's one, yeah, it's great.

00:29:59.040 Yeah.

00:29:59.220 So you don't have to go into an office, but it's also, you're always reachable.

00:30:02.560 Um, so, uh, so I, so I, it's a, it's definitely a, uh, a tough, you know, and people say balancing

00:30:08.980 act, but you're right, it's, it's that pendulum can, can go different ways at certain times.

00:30:13.520 Sometimes it needs to be on the family.

00:30:14.620 So this number, you know, we kicked it off and, and, uh, did a river trip with the family

00:30:19.100 where there's no, uh, wifi, no cell service in the bottom of river Canyon for five days.

00:30:24.280 And you have, there's no choice.

00:30:25.700 You have to be engaged.

00:30:26.820 There's no, hold on one sec.

00:30:28.100 I just need to return this really important text.

00:30:30.500 No, there's none of that because there's no service.

00:30:32.900 So we did that.

00:30:33.820 We get a dude ranch for my dad's birthday and we went to New York for a week.

00:30:38.260 We went to Africa, um, but all with the family, um, I got the kids to camps and then I went

00:30:42.920 on book tour.

00:30:43.680 So it's, uh, you know, that pendulum was on the family for a lot of the summer and then

00:30:47.920 it swung back for book tour.

00:30:49.180 Oh my gosh, that was a full on sprint.

00:30:50.780 So it was always on this side.

00:30:52.360 So it's, uh, it's kind of a swinging pendulum from time to time, but, you know, eventually I think

00:30:57.420 you do get to a place and it's different for everybody where, uh, you can take that breath

00:31:01.240 and say, okay, now I'm going to dictate the schedule.

00:31:04.620 And that's different for everybody.

00:31:05.640 You know, for some people it's, uh, you know, it might be right away.

00:31:08.420 They hit that, that level where they're, uh, they're happy, they're content there, whatever

00:31:12.160 it is.

00:31:12.780 Uh, and then for others, it's going to be up here, you know, when they hit a certain level

00:31:16.220 and some people have never hit it, you know, they, maybe they never take their eye off

00:31:19.120 the ball.

00:31:19.840 Uh, and maybe that is to the detriment of their family or maybe not.

00:31:23.200 Maybe their kids see how hard that they worked to achieve what they did.

00:31:26.260 So I don't know.

00:31:27.000 It's, uh, it's all tough, but, um, but it's a, but it's a great journey and you gotta,

00:31:31.400 gotta enjoy it along the way and be the best example you can for your kids and teach them

00:31:35.400 to be self-reliant, teach them to be good citizens.

00:31:38.060 And, uh, really if you're, if you're doing that, I think that's a good foundation.

00:31:41.740 Yeah, no doubt.

00:31:42.180 You know, I like that you say you got to enjoy it along the way.

00:31:44.280 I was, I was on a walk cause, but we just bought some property here in Maine and have plenty

00:31:48.560 of room to walk around every evening.

00:31:49.860 And so I do that with my family about 90% of the evenings and I was walking and my kids were

00:31:54.700 out in front of me and they were playing in the fields and kind of running around and looking at

00:31:57.880 mushrooms and seeing what animals they could see.

00:31:59.980 They found a big, huge wasp nest just off the main track, the land.

00:32:04.100 So they were looking at that.

00:32:05.060 And, uh, you know, I thought to myself, man, like, I feel like I waited too long to make

00:32:12.360 this happen.

00:32:12.940 But the other side of me says, man, I, maybe I couldn't have made it happen earlier.

00:32:17.620 Right.

00:32:18.100 So I've been working to get to this point where I am right now.

00:32:20.620 But then I started thinking about me lying on my deathbed and me, me being, you know,

00:32:25.620 terminally ill or incapable of, of going on a walk with my family.

00:32:30.320 And I think, man, these are the things that bring me joy and satisfaction.

00:32:35.120 And what a shame it is that so many men are pursuing and chasing things that don't bring

00:32:40.680 them that level of satisfaction.

00:32:41.940 And I'm not saying it needs to be your family or a family.

00:32:44.680 That's not what I'm saying.

00:32:45.960 I'm saying that you need to find whatever it is for you and pursue that deeply and, and

00:32:53.160 with purpose, like you talked about, um, because man, this life is short.

00:32:56.880 It's very, very short.

00:32:58.160 I'm starting to realize that it's crazy how fast time is going.

00:33:01.420 Oh yeah.

00:33:01.960 And there's whatever that thing is, you know, that, uh, seconds tick by faster as you get

00:33:06.100 older, whatever that space time continuum is like, it's a real thing.

00:33:09.360 It does.

00:33:10.260 There's no doubt about it.

00:33:11.340 And they can be gone in a split second.

00:33:12.900 As we know from today being a nine 11, uh, 18, 18 years since that day.

00:33:18.520 Uh, so all those people that, uh, that showed up to work in the twin towers, I got on those,

00:33:22.900 uh, got on those planes 18 years ago today.

00:33:25.120 That was their, that was the last time they were ever with loved ones, last phone calls

00:33:28.800 they made the last time they woke up in the bed.

00:33:31.620 So, uh, yeah, you never know what's gonna, what's gonna, what tomorrow is going to bring

00:33:35.080 or what the next second is going to bring.

00:33:37.100 So I think for you, it's, you know, it's great to follow you on, on social media and

00:33:40.460 you're a, you know, you're a great example to other people out there.

00:33:43.740 And for you at this stage in your life, to me anyway, looking from the outside in, uh,

00:33:47.580 seeing the ages that your kids are and, uh, seeing that you made this move at this time.

00:33:51.980 And to me, it looks like the perfect time to have done what you did.

00:33:54.920 So it's very, very cool.

00:33:56.440 Thank you, man.

00:33:56.840 I appreciate that.

00:33:57.600 Yeah.

00:33:58.540 I want to go back to one of the things you said is that there might be some problems on

00:34:03.200 the page that you need to work out.

00:34:04.900 Um, and I think we all run across these problems in various forms.

00:34:07.780 What would be some of the problems, uh, that you would deal with in the writing process that

00:34:12.880 you feel like you had to work through?

00:34:13.940 Is it just writer's block?

00:34:15.200 Is it motivation?

00:34:16.820 Like, what is it that you're actually dealing with?

00:34:19.440 Yeah.

00:34:19.800 So the actual problems that the characters, uh, for the situations, the characters are engaged

00:34:25.260 in.

00:34:25.760 So I've never had writer's block and I probably shouldn't even talk about it because

00:34:28.800 now when we're done, yeah.

00:34:31.360 But, uh, but I got that from Steven Pressfield and Steven Pressfield, he wrote a few books.

00:34:35.580 Uh, well, he wrote up Gates of Fire, Legend of Bagger Vance, the Afghan campaign, you know,

00:34:39.920 a ton of books.

00:34:41.080 Uh, but I didn't know his book.

00:34:43.860 Yeah.

00:34:44.440 The movie was amazing.

00:34:46.060 Yeah.

00:34:46.240 Totally different than a lot of the other things that he's.

00:34:48.060 Well, yeah.

00:34:48.280 I mean, most of us think about, uh, the, the war of fire and Gates of Fire.

00:34:53.040 Yeah.

00:34:53.400 Non-fictional.

00:34:54.400 He's got two great works that most people would jump to immediately.

00:34:57.680 Yep.

00:34:58.040 Exactly.

00:34:58.520 And that's those works on creativity that, uh, that it's either those ones, the war of

00:35:02.520 art, turning pro, um, yeah, uh, do the work.

00:35:05.940 There's a few of them in there that the authentic swing that are all really about, Hey, just

00:35:10.560 sit down and do it.

00:35:12.100 I do it pretty much what they all say.

00:35:13.660 And I don't remember if it was in one of those books or I think he was on Joe Rogan

00:35:18.180 at least once I listened to him once and it was an amazing listen, but I think it

00:35:22.280 was on the podcast, but where he said, Hey, you don't hear of a trucker getting truckers

00:35:26.880 block.

00:35:27.440 You don't hear like dentist getting dentist block.

00:35:29.680 You know, you're a writer, sit down, be a professional and write.

00:35:33.680 So for me, it was like, Oh, got it.

00:35:35.920 That's easy.

00:35:36.620 Be a professional and write.

00:35:37.800 That's what I do.

00:35:38.760 So I really liked him putting in those, in those terms, you don't hear of a trucker

00:35:42.220 getting truckers block. 0.89

00:35:43.280 I like that.

00:35:43.620 That makes sense.

00:35:44.380 The whole idea of just be professional like that, that just, that strikes me, man.

00:35:50.400 It's like professionals do it regardless of how they feel because that's what they committed

00:35:55.120 to doing that.

00:35:55.980 That's what you do.

00:35:56.940 Yeah.

00:35:57.240 That's what you do.

00:35:57.900 And he, so I got so much from him.

00:35:59.040 I got another, another thing I got from him was he would write the theme of his book

00:36:03.360 as he was writing it on a yellow sticky and put it next to, in his case, I think it

00:36:07.440 was the typewriter in my case, it was the Mac book and I'd put it there.

00:36:11.140 And so for the first novel, that theme was revenge.

00:36:14.300 And so I wrote revenge on this yellow sticky.

00:36:16.580 I had it right there.

00:36:17.340 And so as I wrote, if something didn't tie back to that theme, either directly or more

00:36:21.700 importantly, indirectly, then I would discard it.

00:36:24.680 So essentially I'm editing as I go, staying on theme.

00:36:28.040 And I think that really helped when it got to New York and got to a professional editor

00:36:31.040 in that they, she had hardly any edits.

00:36:34.240 There was like three content edits.

00:36:35.560 Um, like, what do you really say this year?

00:36:37.620 What do you do this year?

00:36:38.300 And a third one, I can't remember, but I mean, I thought they'd change it all up.

00:36:41.260 You know, I'm like, they want to put exploding robots in outer space in this.

00:36:44.680 And, uh, so she had, and it was one of the best editor in the business, Emily Bessler,

00:36:49.040 who did, uh, Brad Thor, Vince Flynn, like she's amazing and, uh, had very few edits, but

00:36:54.180 I attribute that to Steven Pressfield's advice.

00:36:57.500 Um, but going back to the original question, uh, uh, the problems on the written page, it's

00:37:02.180 not writer's block, it's really okay at this stage, what would make it sense for the protagonist

00:37:08.800 or one of the supporting characters, how would they handle this problem?

00:37:12.540 So you're in the story, just like you would be in real life, solving a problem outside,

00:37:17.260 whether it's the battlefield or, you know, anything that you're, you're dealing with

00:37:20.260 that you have to think through and solve.

00:37:22.760 So the same thing on the written page, it's, it's now in a fictional narrative and I'm

00:37:27.380 bringing my feelings and emotions behind different events that transpired downrange or in my life

00:37:33.960 into these, applying those to a fictional narrative, but the characters need to problem solve.

00:37:38.300 They need, in some cases, aggressively problem solve, uh, in some cases, very violently problem

00:37:42.760 solve.

00:37:43.320 And so you got to think through all those dilemmas and have them solve these things in a way

00:37:48.280 that, uh, that's, that's creative.

00:37:49.580 That brings in some of, uh, some of my background for the protagonist anyway, um, and keeps the

00:37:54.820 story moving forward in a way that makes sense for the reader.

00:37:58.140 So, uh, you're taking the reader on this journey and typically it's a, uh, so I, uh, growing

00:38:04.300 up, I, I studied, uh, someone named Joseph Campbell and my mom introduced me to him in 1988 when

00:38:09.500 he did a series of interviews with Bill Moyers on PBS about the power of myth.

00:38:13.800 And what he did, uh, his seminal works called hero with a thousand faces.

00:38:17.160 And what he did was look at mythologies across culture.

00:38:20.380 And he found that, Hey, the hero's journey is very similar, uh, throughout history with

00:38:25.480 different cultures that never had any interaction with one another.

00:38:28.700 And there's typically a reluctant hero that goes on a journey.

00:38:32.180 He faces some sort of adversity, a crucible along the way.

00:38:36.180 He emerges transformed.

00:38:38.820 Typically he meets someone, an older, wiser person that gives him information to pass along

00:38:43.360 to help him, uh, uh, overcome this adversity.

00:38:46.640 And then he emerges transformed and typically returns back home transformed.

00:38:51.260 So, uh, all of that was very, I was, I was very cognizant of that as I was writing.

00:38:56.140 So I know that, uh, for whatever reason, from the oral tradition of storytelling around the

00:39:01.160 campfire to today's modern movies.

00:39:03.360 I mean, think of any of your favorite movies or books and a lot of them fit this hero's journey.

00:39:08.160 Like think of star Wars.

00:39:10.280 Most everybody's seen that.

00:39:11.360 So you have everyone, you know, coming in and giving that knowledge.

00:39:13.760 So you have all these different things that fit in.

00:39:15.940 And, uh, George Lucas was very influenced by Joseph Campbell's work.

00:39:19.580 Um, so I'm thinking through these problem sets as I'm thinking through this hero's journey.

00:39:25.740 And how does this, how does the protagonist solve these problems as he's moving?

00:39:29.820 How does it, what, what crucible is, what's the crucible event that he needs to, what's

00:39:34.880 the dragon he needs to slay?

00:39:36.020 You know, how's he going to do that?

00:39:37.320 What information is he going to gather along the way that's going to help him in his journey?

00:39:40.480 So I'm thinking through all of these things, solving problems constantly on the written

00:39:44.200 page.

00:39:44.640 So that's really what I'm working through.

00:39:46.100 It's not, it's not writer's block.

00:39:47.300 It's not, uh, it's not ideas.

00:39:48.480 It's not titles.

00:39:49.500 It's, uh, it's really that, uh, that hero's journey and working through the problems that,

00:39:53.880 that the protagonist has to deal with as he goes along in this journey.

00:39:59.160 Man, let me hit the pause button timeout real quick.

00:40:01.800 Um, I've got to bring your attention to something that I haven't talked about for a

00:40:05.880 while.

00:40:06.180 And that is our order of man legacy experience.

00:40:10.240 Uh, we've just released the dates and registration for our next father son experience, which this

00:40:15.060 is, uh, for fathers with their sons between the ages of eight to 15.

00:40:19.760 Uh, this is going to take place in central Maine on June 11th through the 14th, 2020.

00:40:25.520 So it's next year, but you've got to get on it very, very quickly because I know we're going

00:40:30.020 to fill this thing up.

00:40:30.740 This is an experience designed to help you forge deeper bonds between you and your son

00:40:35.840 and give you the tools and guidance that you as a father are going to need to usher your

00:40:41.080 boy into manhood.

00:40:42.760 Uh, we've done only two events of these in the past, and this will be the first one held

00:40:48.160 on our new property in Maine.

00:40:49.880 Uh, after doing about a dozen different events, I can tell you that the legacy experience is

00:40:54.840 by far, uh, my favorite event to host and the most meaningful and significant to me.

00:41:00.060 I know it will be to you as well.

00:41:01.580 So head to order of man.com slash legacy, order of man.com slash legacy to get more information.

00:41:07.820 Uh, you can watch a video recap from our last event and then of course get registered, do

00:41:12.480 it quickly.

00:41:12.940 Uh, we only have 16 spots remaining 20 total, 16 spots remaining.

00:41:17.860 That is all.

00:41:18.720 So head to order of man.com slash legacy.

00:41:22.580 I hope to see you and your son or sons there.

00:41:25.640 Uh, but for now, let me get back to my conversation with Jack.

00:41:29.840 Do you think that following that hero's journey model, uh, is, uh, played out?

00:41:36.320 Maybe it's not the right word, but do you see that ever getting tiresome for a reader or

00:41:41.880 a viewer?

00:41:42.400 Like, why is it that every story resonate is that theme and yet it doesn't seem like

00:41:47.580 we've been exhausted on that theme, if that makes sense.

00:41:50.360 Yeah.

00:41:50.700 I think it's something in our DNA.

00:41:52.020 It's something that, uh, you know, from the, from the first days when the first war party

00:41:56.280 returned, uh, from the first hunting party returned, um, to the cave, uh, there were these

00:42:02.780 stories and these stories that, and those things were journeys.

00:42:05.840 Um, and they wanted to take those journeys of the hunt, uh, and, uh, conflict and pass

00:42:11.600 on certain lessons to the next generation.

00:42:14.000 So they're passing along through, through sometimes stories that became myth, but they

00:42:19.080 follow this journey.

00:42:20.340 You're leaving.

00:42:20.840 There's two, there's two stories in all of, of, of literature.

00:42:23.360 It's, it's that it's, uh, a, a stranger goes to town, a man goes on a journey.

00:42:28.420 Like everything fits those two narratives.

00:42:31.640 Very basic, of course.

00:42:33.460 Sure.

00:42:33.680 But you think of, think of the stories in terms of things that you liked, uh, over the

00:42:37.160 years, stories, you've been told fairy tales, uh, literature, fiction, whatever it is, movies,

00:42:42.960 TV shows.

00:42:43.860 Um, and typically they, they fit a narrative that resonates with us.

00:42:48.100 Uh, and I think it's good.

00:42:49.380 It goes back to that oral tradition of storytelling around the campfire that, uh, really rose up

00:42:53.900 out of stories of the hunt and stories of the going on the warpath.

00:42:58.960 Yeah, this, this makes sense.

00:43:00.380 I'm just thinking about it in my own context.

00:43:02.080 The, uh, the other day, my son came, my oldest son, uh, came to me and he was upset visibly.

00:43:06.720 And I said, what's wrong?

00:43:07.720 And he said, somebody called me fat.

00:43:10.320 And we had a, we had a serious discussion about that.

00:43:13.780 I mean, my question was, well, do you think you're fat?

00:43:15.680 And he says, yeah, kind of.

00:43:16.600 I said, well, then you can do something about it, but you, you shouldn't let other people's 1.00

00:43:20.700 words influence you that way.

00:43:22.520 And what I did is I told him stories, a couple of different stories of when I was younger,

00:43:26.540 when people would tease me for being overweight, um, I, they used to call me a hermit because

00:43:31.820 I, I would never really, uh, be very social.

00:43:35.300 I wouldn't go out and like hang out.

00:43:37.080 And so I got the dub, the title, the hermit.

00:43:39.900 So, but I shared that.

00:43:42.360 Yeah.

00:43:42.520 But, but I shared these stories with him, uh, and then I told him, you know, here's

00:43:48.200 how I overcame it.

00:43:49.060 And now look, you know, I'm not, I'm not fat.

00:43:51.960 I'm not a hermit.

00:43:53.600 So you can change.

00:43:54.840 Right.

00:43:55.040 And this is the, this is the hero's journey that you're talking about.

00:43:57.620 Yeah.

00:43:57.740 We're all on a journey.

00:43:58.500 We're all going to face adversity.

00:43:59.600 It's crazy.

00:44:00.180 I think why these novels, uh, resonate with people, uh, movies resonate with people because,

00:44:04.800 uh, you're, you're going on a journey with someone.

00:44:07.840 You're seeing somebody that's facing adversity.

00:44:10.520 Uh, I mean, look at Rocky.

00:44:12.840 Underdog.

00:44:13.420 Who's the mentor in that case that comes in with knowledge, Mickey, you know, and hello

00:44:17.940 even.

00:44:18.540 And yeah.

00:44:19.120 And you have, and, and he's reluctant at first.

00:44:21.140 Remember Rocky turns down.

00:44:22.120 He doesn't want to do it at first.

00:44:23.120 So, I mean, they, they fit this, this, uh, this narrative, but I love that story.

00:44:26.580 And I love the hermit.

00:44:27.220 I'm going to have to steal that.

00:44:28.180 Yeah.

00:44:28.380 I love it.

00:44:28.760 I'm going to write it down.

00:44:29.800 That's, uh, that is awesome.

00:44:31.900 I like that.

00:44:32.400 It makes your way into one of your books.

00:44:33.980 I just want to see my name somewhere.

00:44:35.820 So absolutely.

00:44:37.080 I give a lot of credit in those acknowledgements.

00:44:39.520 It's fun for me to, it's fun for me to do, but, uh, you know,

00:44:42.340 truth be told, I would love to be just up in the mountains, uh, hermit and a cabin

00:44:46.340 and not, uh, not do all the things that you need to do to build a business these days.

00:44:52.220 I'm much more comfortable and people think, you know, as a seal, how could you be introverted?

00:44:55.880 Uh, you know, that's what, but it really, you know, I'm an introverted person.

00:44:59.000 I've learned to not to over the years, just because I was a natural leader from youth.

00:45:03.300 Um, but you know, I was still very introverted and I wanted to be thoughtful about things.

00:45:08.240 Um, but that led to being, um, a little more, I guess, reclusive or shy or, uh, I guess.

00:45:17.000 Um, but you know, I, he learned not to be, um, as introverted, I guess, um, just to be

00:45:24.500 able to communicate with people effectively, especially in special operations, both up

00:45:27.700 and down the chain of command.

00:45:29.180 But, uh, but truth be told, I'd love to just be in the mountains in my cabin, uh, with the

00:45:33.460 family and send off the novels to New York and that's it.

00:45:36.840 But, uh, you can't really get away with that these days.

00:45:39.000 A little different, a little different in this environment.

00:45:41.380 I missed those days by, I don't know, a hundred years or so.

00:45:43.440 Yeah, we were actually just like Ernest Hemingway, just, uh, in last night, in fact, we were thinking

00:45:48.460 about that.

00:45:49.060 You know, I think there's a misunderstanding of, of introversion as well.

00:45:52.400 It's, it's not that an introvert is incapable or less qualified to be able to do those things.

00:45:56.540 I think ultimately an introvert gains energy and renews his energy through, uh, through

00:46:05.420 reflection and being alone and being focused on those other external factors than being around

00:46:12.100 other individuals.

00:46:13.440 So, cause I feel that way too.

00:46:14.880 It's not that I'm incapable of presenting to audiences or that I'm uncomfortable, uh,

00:46:19.560 around a bunch of people.

00:46:20.660 It's that I gain, uh, energy and I'm recharged through taking a walk and being out in the

00:46:27.880 wilderness and doing something that sounds like very similar to the things that you enjoy.

00:46:32.160 Yeah, no, it's, uh, like we say in the teams, it's get, uh, get comfortable being

00:46:35.840 uncomfortable.

00:46:36.620 Yes.

00:46:36.940 Um, and that's, uh, that's all, that's all a part of it.

00:46:39.840 But another piece of that is, you know, a hundred years ago, 50 years ago, 20 years

00:46:44.260 ago, uh, there wasn't a way for people to reach out and just tell you how they think,

00:46:49.020 uh, whatever your pursuit is, uh, they can comment on it.

00:46:52.840 Right.

00:46:53.180 For better or worse.

00:46:54.860 Exactly.

00:46:55.460 So, you know, it's great.

00:46:56.300 It's, it's, it's engagement.

00:46:57.520 That's wonderful.

00:46:58.440 But it's also means, you know, I don't know if people also think seals have very thick

00:47:01.680 skin and, uh, you know, you know, I'm human, but I thought about this ahead of time.

00:47:06.720 So I thought, okay, there are going to be bad reviews.

00:47:09.320 Um, luckily there are not that many.

00:47:11.280 Like it's, uh, when you go on and check out the reviews for the first two novels there,

00:47:14.560 it's, it's amazing.

00:47:15.880 Like how well it's doing, but there are some, it's not going to resonate with everyone.

00:47:19.560 Luckily it's resonated with so many people.

00:47:21.680 And I'm so for it, feel so fortunate, um, for that.

00:47:23.940 But, uh, you know, there's a, and I do read the bad ones, but before I did that, I thought,

00:47:27.960 okay, they're going to be bad ones and you're going to, you're not going to be able to

00:47:32.260 just ignore them.

00:47:32.940 You're going to, you're going to look at them because you're a human.

00:47:35.080 Uh, but I thought about it in terms of, Hey, if somebody takes the time to write something

00:47:39.880 negative, well, one, it says a lot about them, but that's not the point of what I'm saying.

00:47:43.320 The point is the things that they point out that they don't like are the exact reasons

00:47:48.700 that someone else is going to like it.

00:47:50.640 And so it's going to make that sale for you.

00:47:53.500 So someone says, Oh, it's too violent or it's a too much gear stuff.

00:47:57.560 Or yeah, yeah.

00:47:57.940 The guy's like, Oh, that's awesome.

00:47:59.180 Or someone says, you know, I didn't really get the gear.

00:48:01.960 There's too much gear in there.

00:48:03.040 And the gear guy's like, Oh, I want to know what this guy uses, or I want you to know

00:48:05.980 what seals use down range or whatever else.

00:48:07.680 That's going to be great.

00:48:08.480 So even the negative ones help.

00:48:10.980 And, uh, so I thought about it in those terms.

00:48:12.820 And there was one funny one the other day.

00:48:14.260 It's a, it's near the top of the terminal list one on Amazon.

00:48:17.200 And it's someone saying it was a one star.

00:48:19.420 And luckily there's not many of those, but this guy said there was a contrived chapter in

00:48:24.980 there where the author tries to humanize his protagonist and that, uh, there's someone

00:48:30.140 in a battle that he does not shoot.

00:48:32.940 And I'm like, Hmm, that's interesting.

00:48:34.900 This contrived scene, because that really happened.

00:48:37.780 And that was really me who really did not shoot this person going away from the battle

00:48:41.880 in the job.

00:48:42.820 And I, I changed it from the job to Fallujah in the, uh, you know, for the story.

00:48:46.660 But, uh, yeah, it was a two week campaign for taking a job in the summer of 2004.

00:48:52.160 And I led a sniper team in there.

00:48:53.940 Um, and it was, yeah, like, just like kind of the movies of world war two that you watch

00:48:57.680 when you're, they're taking cities.

00:48:58.760 Like that's what it reminded me of.

00:49:00.280 And, uh, we pushed the Jay Shahmadi militia a couple blocks forward. 0.96

00:49:03.500 They'd fall back towards the Imam Ali mosque in old town of Jaff.

00:49:06.320 We'd go up, take sniper positions, move in those Abrams tanks, move in those Bradleys.

00:49:10.520 Um, the army logistics train would come in with all the water, all the food, more ammo

00:49:13.860 because the army logistics train, as you know, is, uh, or probably one of the best

00:49:17.740 things we do as a military is that logistics piece.

00:49:20.880 Um, and then, bam, then we'd move forward, we'd come up with a plan and then we'd move

00:49:24.760 forward with all those different, uh, two, seven cab and everybody else that was involved

00:49:28.540 in that campaign.

00:49:30.340 But, uh, at this one stage and the rules of engagement were, Hey, this whole city is

00:49:35.360 essentially, um, they're all bad guys.

00:49:37.760 We've given them a couple of weeks to get out of here.

00:49:39.400 There's been leaflet drops, there's been announcements.

00:49:40.960 Uh, Jay Shalmati is, and, and luckily they were mostly dressed kind of all in black.

00:49:46.280 Like they were kind of, which is unusual to have an enemy that has some sort of a uniform

00:49:50.360 on, but, uh, convenient, I'm sure it certainly does.

00:49:55.140 Uh, but as we're taking this, uh, I was crossing the street and I took this corner and there

00:49:59.920 was a guy who was dressed in black and he was on a bicycle and he was just meandering

00:50:05.200 down the street, just like, you know, you would, if you're on a, uh, kind of a beach town

00:50:09.520 anywhere in the U S or maybe the Bahamas or something like that.

00:50:12.640 And he's just, I'm just cruising along on a bike.

00:50:16.080 And, uh, I hadn't got an ACOG on that cause I switched up.

00:50:19.360 We had all the different weapon systems we got with us cause we could move them forward

00:50:22.300 and have them brought forward with Bradley's and everything.

00:50:24.580 So we had all the different sniper weapon systems and all the different M4 platforms

00:50:27.540 and all that.

00:50:27.920 So on this particular one, I had my ACOG and, uh, you know, had off safe and, uh, had

00:50:33.800 him in the scope, a little ACOG scope.

00:50:35.440 I think it's a four power fixed, I think.

00:50:37.060 And, uh, and I didn't shoot and I radioed back cause we had all these, you know, different

00:50:41.140 phases or whatever you call them as you're backed up towards the, uh, the COP or whatever

00:50:45.460 else, um, with the leadership back there that's directing everything and kind of managing

00:50:49.540 all the chaos.

00:50:50.800 Um, so just let them know, Hey, you got somebody coming back on a bike and, uh, didn't, didn't

00:50:55.460 shoot him, although I could have, um, and I talk about that being an important shot that

00:50:59.820 I didn't take. 0.82

00:51:00.480 And I would talk to my guys about that, uh, in the future.

00:51:02.900 And then I wove it into the storyline, fictionalized a little bit.

00:51:05.560 I can't combine two different events, but it was funny that someone in this review said

00:51:09.280 this author contrived this thing, like almost like no one would ever do that.

00:51:12.880 It's, you know, and I was like, Oh, that's kind of funny.

00:51:15.380 Cause that's, uh, that really happened.

00:51:17.200 Yeah.

00:51:17.880 Were you, were you aware enough at the time to, to really think about and process why you wouldn't

00:51:23.240 shoot that individual?

00:51:24.060 So it just didn't seem, it just was something within me that was like, this is not someone

00:51:28.920 you need to shoot today.

00:51:30.420 Um, yeah, it kind of like reminded me, even though he's kind of fairly far off, you know,

00:51:33.720 I forget exactly how far, let's say a hundred yards or 150 maybe.

00:51:36.980 Um, and, uh, it just seemed like an old man on a bike and happened to be dressed like the

00:51:41.700 enemy, but he happened to also like no one else was just meandering along in the middle

00:51:45.860 of the street cause you're going to get shot. 0.57

00:51:47.640 Uh, and he was going away from the battle, you know?

00:51:50.260 Um, and, uh, yeah, it could be maneuvering, could be, you know, all those things,

00:51:53.920 which is why I called back and got confirmation that they were going to pick him up a couple

00:51:57.400 blocks back.

00:51:58.280 But, uh, yeah, just something was like, and I couldn't tell you what it was, but something

00:52:02.640 was just like, this guy doesn't need to get shot today.

00:52:04.800 Hmm.

00:52:05.340 You know, that's interesting.

00:52:06.420 Of course it could have been like a horrible terrorist, you know, that needed to go, but

00:52:10.580 I don't know, maybe, but, uh, you know, had I shot him, I'd probably be telling myself 0.82

00:52:14.840 that to sleep better at night.

00:52:16.140 Yeah.

00:52:16.340 Well, I think there's this, and I talked to somebody on the podcast the other day about

00:52:19.680 this, that there's this, this sense that we have and, and you can call it intuition

00:52:25.060 or the Holy spirit or your conscience, whatever, whatever, whatever term you've dubbed it.

00:52:31.640 Um, but I really think that too many men aren't in tune with it and they don't listen to it

00:52:38.000 and they talk themselves into or out of, uh, some sort of contradicting, uh, guidance from

00:52:45.100 this intuition or Holy spirit, or again, whatever you want to call it.

00:52:48.340 Uh, I, I, I firmly believe that there's, there's a sense that we just don't understand.

00:52:54.280 And, and that's what it sounds like you were tapping into, uh, and, and I think that the

00:52:59.180 more you listen to it, the more prevalent it's going to become and the better choices

00:53:03.720 you're going to make.

00:53:04.360 It's just one more sense to take into consideration.

00:53:07.980 Oh yeah.

00:53:08.540 It's trust your instincts.

00:53:09.620 And there's certainly something, uh, that is, we call a sixth sense and that, uh, that

00:53:15.580 exists.

00:53:16.280 And that sixth sense is the reason, once again, that you and I are here today is because somebody

00:53:20.320 in our past had a good one and, uh, or the person they were following had a good one,

00:53:25.400 maybe, but, uh, that sixth sense has kept people alive, not just soldiers, um, but people

00:53:31.040 in general, uh, alive from the beginning of time to today.

00:53:34.920 So listening to that, and it's still in us, although as we are removed from the earth,

00:53:38.600 we're removed from doom for the most of us, uh, removed the things that, that we need

00:53:43.180 to do to provide for our families, protect our families.

00:53:45.680 Um, and people are stumbling through life thinking that, uh, you know, to protect my family,

00:53:49.520 what do I do?

00:53:49.940 Well, I call 9-1-1, I need to provide some food for tonight's dinner.

00:53:53.240 What do I do?

00:53:53.660 I go to the grocery store.

00:53:55.240 Um, and, but it's in there, even in those people, like it's, even if it's a little innate,

00:54:00.460 a little, a little covered up by all these, uh, a very small, small portion of our existence

00:54:06.000 as humans has been civilized.

00:54:08.160 So the vast majority of our time on this planet was spent fighting and, uh, providing food for

00:54:13.800 our families.

00:54:14.580 Um, so it's in there.

00:54:15.760 It's even in those people that don't think they needed to know how to defend their family,

00:54:18.940 that don't think they need to know how to provide for their family.

00:54:22.280 Um, that they can just call a number or go to the grocery store or call Uber Eats even

00:54:26.080 better and have it delivered.

00:54:27.680 Right.

00:54:27.900 Um, so, uh, but it's in there.

00:54:30.020 That sixth sense is somewhere, but most people don't listen to it today.

00:54:33.040 And that's when you get into trouble.

00:54:34.400 It's a bit of a catch 22 because I imagine the reason that you joined or, or the reason,

00:54:40.060 part of the reason that maybe you enlisted was that you, you wanted to serve and you

00:54:44.580 wanted to protect and you wanted to isolate these negative experiences somewhere other

00:54:48.820 than your family and your friends and your community.

00:54:51.100 And so you decided to go out and pursue this thing, right?

00:54:55.900 Or you want to create in a different context, a better life for your children.

00:55:00.100 And so you, you maybe coddle them a little bit more than you should, and you give them

00:55:04.320 a little bit more ease and comfort than maybe they have earned or deserve.

00:55:08.300 And so that's what we want to do as men.

00:55:11.200 And yet the other side of it is that sometimes we do those people a disservice by not allowing

00:55:17.380 them to experience some of this hardship and challenge on their own, because that's what

00:55:21.040 makes them tough.

00:55:22.080 So it really is an interesting, uh, challenge and perspectives to consider that the end, the

00:55:27.800 ends of the spectrum, if you will.

00:55:29.420 You have a couple of things there to unpack.

00:55:31.200 And one is that that's why a mentor is so important, uh, particularly for a young person

00:55:36.600 growing up because, you know, a father figure is just that a father figure.

00:55:39.840 And yes, the father figure can be a mentor or can have, you know, can do certain things

00:55:44.320 that, uh, that would fall into that category, but it is also important.

00:55:49.000 It's why we talk about mentors.

00:55:50.080 It's why it's there, uh, in literature from, uh, uh, almost the beginning of the written

00:55:54.680 word, uh, because there's that somebody who is not a family member that, uh, can say those

00:56:00.120 things that maybe a father cannot, um, or that, uh, that, uh, it's, it's a different

00:56:06.180 take a different, uh, uh, you know, the perspectives are in line, of course, have to be in line

00:56:11.400 with, uh, with the families, but someone that is not a family member that can take that young

00:56:15.420 man out, uh, take them into the woods, um, teach them things.

00:56:19.080 Maybe the father can, I mean, the father does not, doesn't know how to shoot, maybe doesn't

00:56:21.740 know how to roll, whatever, whatever, whatever it is, fish.

00:56:24.980 Um, but they can take that person out and, uh, and talk to them from that, with that other

00:56:29.420 perspective.

00:56:29.800 So there's a reason they're in literature and there are reasons they're in our lives and why

00:56:33.280 people that are in these positions, especially in business, like talk about ventures, people

00:56:37.340 that, that, uh, that did that for them as they progressed along the track.

00:56:41.440 So, um, there is that.

00:56:42.880 And then for me, it was just a very natural thing to join the military.

00:56:45.500 There was not, there was never really another option in that, uh, I knew what I wanted to

00:56:49.220 do from such an early age.

00:56:50.560 And a lot of that is probably because my grandfather was killed in world war II and he was killed

00:56:54.560 near the end of the war off Okinawa.

00:56:55.860 He was a Marine pilot, Corsair pilot.

00:56:58.120 And, uh, and so I grew up with his, uh, the maps they used to give aviators back then, his wings,

00:57:02.880 his medals, pictures of him in his plane.

00:57:05.480 And, uh, so I knew, okay, that's what I'm going to do.

00:57:08.100 I'm going to step up and I'm going to serve my country in uniform.

00:57:11.680 And then of course, growing up in the eighties, all, you know, one of my first memories is

00:57:15.720 of desert one and is of the hostage hostage taking and those, uh, those black and white 0.75

00:57:21.400 photos that came out.

00:57:22.320 And then of course, all the other things that happened, uh, after that, some, the embassy

00:57:26.800 bombing in Beirut, the Marine barracks bombing in Beirut, uh, all the airline hijackings

00:57:31.200 we had in the eighties.

00:57:32.200 So all these things really happened at a time that, uh, I was very, uh, impressionable.

00:57:37.440 I would say I knew where I was going to go.

00:57:39.780 So I knew that going forward, this was my fight even well before nine 11.

00:57:43.920 Um, you know, this was going to be my fight.

00:57:46.440 This was going to be my enemy.

00:57:48.320 Um, and, uh, and I prepared myself for that from a very early age.

00:57:53.240 I love it, man.

00:57:54.340 I actually want to go back to, because now we're talking about your experiences and some of the

00:57:59.180 things that you did and a lot of this is interwoven into your, your novels that you put together

00:58:04.840 a healthy portion of it, which is great because it makes it more realistic.

00:58:08.920 That's always the, that's always a hard thing for me is you have, uh, an author who's explaining

00:58:13.520 something they know nothing about, uh, or, or a musician who writes a story or, or sings

00:58:19.600 a song about an experience that he's never had in his entire life.

00:58:23.120 So I think there's a huge connection between what you've done in your life and what you put

00:58:27.220 into your novels, but the question is when you're creating characters, are you, you, you

00:58:34.460 using other people?

00:58:35.920 Are you modeling what, what other people, you know, would do in that situation?

00:58:39.900 I'm sure, you know, for example, there's probably a healthy portion of, of James Reese is you,

00:58:45.900 right?

00:58:46.440 But then you have other characters who you probably don't resonate with personally.

00:58:51.920 And yet those people are critical to the story.

00:58:55.080 Yep.

00:58:55.520 No, exactly.

00:58:56.280 And I, so I'll talk with the protagonist first, James Reese.

00:58:58.960 So I wanted to humanize him because a lot of times in the media, as you know, people,

00:59:02.680 uh, kind of put special operations, people on a pedestal and treat them as, uh, essentially

00:59:08.340 superheroes, invincible superheroes, although we know that they are not.

00:59:12.420 Um, and really, you know, they, we are just people doing a job.

00:59:17.000 That job happens to be special operations.

00:59:18.800 A job happens to have dire consequences if you make a mistake.

00:59:21.820 Um, and, uh, so I, but I wanted the character to be human, um, and his background to lend

00:59:28.940 itself to what he was good at and then not so good at.

00:59:31.940 So I wove in, you know, he's not so good at the surveillance stuff.

00:59:34.540 Why?

00:59:34.860 Because I didn't really do too much surveillance stuff, urban surveillance stuff.

00:59:38.300 I didn't, you know, close target reckeys and that sort of thing, but, uh, but not in the

00:59:41.820 way that, uh, the protagonist needs to do it in the story.

00:59:43.920 And a lot of people think that, oh, all seals can pick locks and all seals can set up these,

00:59:48.020 you know, elaborate surveillance things and listen in and do all this.

00:59:51.600 And so I wanted to make him human and, uh, relatable, um, and that he's good at some

00:59:56.540 things, not at others.

00:59:58.060 And, uh, typically in these stories, you know, the guys, the protagonist, like their coffee

01:00:01.480 black and, uh, you know, I like my coffee with a little honey in it and a little bit

01:00:07.480 of half and half.

01:00:08.180 And so that's what I did.

01:00:09.260 And I get, you know, I got a lot of, uh, a lot of heat about that in the military, like

01:00:12.560 a little, little foo-foo type coffee, especially in the Navy.

01:00:15.200 You know, I get the old chiefs that, uh, yeah, exactly.

01:00:17.540 So, uh, so, you know, I wove that, um, for other characters in the story, uh, a lot of

01:00:23.020 them, even the bad ones, I just, I took some traits from people that I really like, um, but

01:00:27.880 I took one of their traits and threw it in there, uh, for the bad guy to kind of, you

01:00:31.660 know, make him not one dimensional, um, and to make him different from the other bad guys

01:00:36.740 in this.

01:00:37.800 Um, so, uh, so I do, yes, most of the characters are based in part on people.

01:00:44.740 Uh, either singular or plural that, uh, that I have known or run into, uh, and some of

01:00:51.360 them, people that I never even met that I just, uh, have read about.

01:00:54.140 I take certain parts of parts of those people and incorporate them because I think we're

01:00:57.460 all just, you know, what, what we are, are the combination of our experience, our knowledge

01:01:03.760 and what we, how do we turn that experience and that knowledge into wisdom?

01:01:08.220 Um, and you know, what do we study along the way?

01:01:11.060 Who are we?

01:01:11.940 How do we deal with adversity?

01:01:13.060 So all those different things and all the people that I've met along the way, they all

01:01:15.940 lend themselves to somehow being incorporated in these novels because they're all a part

01:01:21.400 of me somehow.

01:01:23.040 Uh, so I learned, you know, all these characters come from somewhere and a lot of, yes, they're

01:01:27.600 created, but they also have attributes of people I've either studied or people that I

01:01:32.180 know both good and bad.

01:01:33.900 Yeah.

01:01:34.340 And it's fun.

01:01:35.100 No, I bet.

01:01:35.720 I bet it is.

01:01:36.520 And I imagine this is why it resonates so well is because we can see ourselves.

01:01:40.060 I mean, look, I think generally from a 30,000 foot view, I would say that I'm a, a good human

01:01:47.120 being that I, that I'm a moral human being.

01:01:48.940 I would say that about myself, but I also know that there's sides of me that maybe aren't

01:01:54.700 as moral as you would think, or that I have an ability to go down maybe a dark side or a,

01:02:00.920 or a side that isn't as virtuous as we like to portray on social media and some of these

01:02:05.360 other outlets.

01:02:06.680 Uh, we know that about ourselves.

01:02:08.560 We don't let others know about it, but we know that about ourselves.

01:02:11.880 And so when we see it in a character, I think it does make it more real knowing that, for

01:02:16.160 example, our, our, our James Reese is, has, has this like revenge, maybe even hate filled

01:02:24.260 drive in the first book, right?

01:02:26.040 Which isn't a Captain America like quality.

01:02:29.740 It's not a superhero quality.

01:02:31.540 It's a human quality.

01:02:32.740 And I think that makes it more relatable that you can sprinkle some of this stuff in.

01:02:37.480 Right.

01:02:38.080 So I, you know, I loved reading books about revenge growing up.

01:02:40.960 I love watching movies about revenge.

01:02:42.500 There's a reason there's all these death wish movies.

01:02:44.360 And it's because that resonates with us because when someone wrongs you in real life, whether

01:02:49.180 it's taking your parking place or doing something underhanded in business or stealing an idea

01:02:54.720 or whatever it is, um, and you were pissed, uh, and you have this cause once again, going

01:03:00.720 back to that, that DNA, like you want to do something about it.

01:03:04.980 Uh, we have laws in place that keep us from doing things, but you know what?

01:03:08.620 You can escape into the pages of a novel.

01:03:10.680 You can sit down in a theater or you can click Netflix and you can watch it and you can watch

01:03:15.240 someone else do it in a fictional way, because if you do it in real life, you're going to

01:03:19.040 jail.

01:03:19.660 Yes.

01:03:19.940 Uh, so you cannot do a lot of these things in, uh, in real life.

01:03:23.360 Sometimes, unfortunately, because I think people would be a lot more polite.

01:03:26.360 Uh, could you deal with things in a more primal way?

01:03:30.060 But if you knew there was consequences for your, your mouth, for example, running.

01:03:35.120 Yes, exactly.

01:03:36.180 A hundred percent.

01:03:36.640 Exactly.

01:03:36.980 Or taking a certain action, you know, nowadays people, you know, you know, you're not going

01:03:41.560 to go out in the middle of the street and for the most part, and, uh, you know, have

01:03:44.960 a little showdown and, and, uh, have things taken care of, but, uh, but you can escape

01:03:49.420 into the pages of a novel and you can enjoy that escape and go along on a journey with

01:03:54.000 someone else who is doing the things that you can't do in real life.

01:03:58.500 Yeah.

01:03:58.640 So it's, uh, that's kind of what I tapped into.

01:04:00.600 And I, uh, I wrote down about five or six, seven, eight, someone different, uh, one page

01:04:05.660 executive summaries for possible novels.

01:04:07.580 I was kicking this off and I chose the one that I thought would be the most visceral, the

01:04:11.500 most primal, the most hard hitting, which would also be the one that would be most likely

01:04:16.560 to get noticed by a publisher in New York.

01:04:19.080 So, so I looked at it in those terms, but, uh, the one I really wanted to write though

01:04:22.720 was the third one.

01:04:23.900 And the third one is Savage Son.

01:04:26.180 Right.

01:04:26.560 But I know I couldn't start with it.

01:04:27.920 Yeah.

01:04:28.100 I could not start with that one though.

01:04:29.300 I needed the characters needed to get to a place where it would make sense to, uh, to

01:04:33.720 dive into Savage Son, but it was one of those original ideas that I wrote down as I started

01:04:38.140 on this journey.

01:04:38.760 So, um, and then what really differentiated it, I think is pulling in those emotions,

01:04:44.460 pulling in those feelings from real world events and applying them to a fictional narrative.

01:04:48.660 Cause if someone's reading it, uh, the emotions, the protagonist is feeling, although, uh, I

01:04:54.380 mean, they, they come from a real place, so they are real feelings just, uh, attached to

01:04:59.420 a fictional narrative.

01:05:00.540 So I think that's what really, uh, made this thing resonate and made it the success that

01:05:04.340 it's, uh, that it's become.

01:05:05.240 Yeah.

01:05:06.040 Do you ever feel like you're, or, or have been accused of encouraging people to act out

01:05:12.600 some of their, some of these scenarios that you've created in your fictional work?

01:05:17.960 Has that ever been brought up?

01:05:19.460 Is that an issue that you're worried about or concerned about?

01:05:22.180 What are your thoughts with that?

01:05:23.620 No, I haven't been accused of that.

01:05:25.060 And I think, you know, there's a, uh, quite a resume from Hollywood and from other, uh,

01:05:31.080 authors that have, uh, you know, written things.

01:05:33.600 Of course.

01:05:34.720 So I think I'm on fairly stable ground there.

01:05:37.340 People are looking for reasons to be upset.

01:05:39.700 They're looking for outlets to blame.

01:05:42.200 Uh, you know, obviously we, we, it seems to me we're seeing an uptrend in, um, active shooter

01:05:48.100 situations and it just seems like more and more people want to look for reasons that

01:05:55.460 may not actually be there and pin them on, uh, people in situations that have nothing

01:06:01.160 to do with the, with, with the scenario we might be running across.

01:06:04.320 Yeah, I guess people can look at, uh, any sort of a story or whether it's fiction or non

01:06:09.260 and take what they want from it, um, and, uh, and, and turn it into what they want or need

01:06:16.100 it to be to justify whatever they're going to do.

01:06:20.000 So that's a, that's a possibility, but, uh, no, I haven't yet.

01:06:23.320 This is a fictional narrative and really what, what I talk about, uh, most often is this journey

01:06:30.580 and mine happens to be writing.

01:06:33.080 Mine happens to be publishing, uh, that's my passion.

01:06:36.100 And so I try to frame things in interviews, uh, as, Hey, this is, this is just, this is

01:06:42.740 my journey.

01:06:43.540 Uh, everyone's different.

01:06:44.860 Uh, you're going to face adversity along the way.

01:06:46.900 What really makes us who we are and reveals our characters, how we deal with that adversity.

01:06:51.640 Uh, so I do talk about personal things that don't name my kids or whatever, but I do talk

01:06:56.500 about them because it'd be unnatural for me not to, uh, talk about my family, where we live,

01:07:00.660 that sort of thing.

01:07:01.280 Um, but I really talk about, try to put things in a positive way.

01:07:04.900 And although some parts of the story are very dark, uh, all three novels, in fact, the third

01:07:09.380 one, Savage Son, uh, really explores the dark side of man where that first one was revenge.

01:07:13.800 That yellow sticky was revenge.

01:07:15.020 Uh, that second one, the yellow sticky was redemption, a violent redemption.

01:07:18.900 Uh, that third one that's coming out here in April is, uh, the dark side of man.

01:07:23.260 That's what, uh, that's what I'm exploring.

01:07:24.780 Um, and I was inspired to do that by a novel that were not a novel, a short story that I

01:07:29.600 read in sixth grade called the most dangerous game by Richard Connell written in 1924.

01:07:33.620 And what he really did was explore that hunter hunted dynamic.

01:07:37.840 And it was very different, uh, way to explore that theme for the time.

01:07:43.400 And really since then, a lot of the, uh, well, radio shows back then, uh, then movies, uh,

01:07:50.180 books have all really, uh, had like, you'll get die hard.

01:07:53.400 You look at all those sorts of things, undersea, whatever.

01:07:55.340 Uh, you know, they have this theme of hunter versus hunted.

01:07:58.020 And, uh, so he really influenced popular fiction, uh, in a way that resonated with me in sixth

01:08:03.280 grade.

01:08:03.520 And then I always knew that one day I would write a novel that kind of paid homage to his

01:08:07.320 story and took it and applied his theme to a modern day warrior.

01:08:14.340 And he said, when in sixth grade, I was thinking about that.

01:08:16.000 I was thinking about the geopolitics of the day and how I was going to take that inspiration

01:08:19.880 from what I read back then and, uh, and use it, uh, going forward for a, for a modern day

01:08:25.100 kind of incarnation of that, of that theme paying tribute to him.

01:08:28.480 So, um, uh, so yeah, that was the, that was the third, third theme that was on the yellow

01:08:33.680 sticky.

01:08:34.280 I'm about to start the fourth one here pretty soon.

01:08:35.920 So I've got to, uh, it's all outlined.

01:08:37.300 So you're all done with, with number three, with Savage Son.

01:08:39.880 It's last weekend.

01:08:41.020 Is that right?

01:08:41.940 Yeah.

01:08:42.160 I finished over the weekend and, uh, uh, I went to Russia to do some research about a

01:08:46.680 month ago.

01:08:47.160 Yeah.

01:08:47.640 And cause I wanted to, so the first, that second one, I went to Mozambique and I really jumped

01:08:52.660 into, Hey, what's the, what are the Chinese influences here?

01:08:55.380 Uh, legal and illegal mining operations.

01:08:57.440 Uh, is there meat poaching to feed all these workers? 0.74

01:09:00.020 What's the ivory poaching like here?

01:09:01.640 Uh, what are the effects of the, on the environment of what's going on?

01:09:04.380 What are the politics?

01:09:05.240 And really got to spend a lot of time with the professional hunters, uh, the trackers

01:09:08.700 got a lot of the language down.

01:09:10.520 Um, uh, as far as that, I think I have the right behind me in the drawer here, but I had

01:09:14.160 the 12 different pieces of paper with maybe 20, 15 or 20 different phrases I wanted to

01:09:19.200 get in all these different languages.

01:09:20.220 So I could weave that in to the story.

01:09:22.860 And I want to do the same thing with, uh, with Savage Son.

01:09:25.660 So I went to Kamchatka Peninsula, Russia, just South of Siberia, Russian Far East.

01:09:30.000 And it was interesting in that in Mozambique, everybody wanted to talk.

01:09:34.660 Everybody wanted to tell the story of that country, what's going on with the environment.

01:09:37.940 They all wanted to be part of this novel.

01:09:39.740 And, and, uh, and it was, it was amazing.

01:09:42.380 Russia, different deal.

01:09:43.920 A little different.

01:09:44.200 And I thought it was going to be the same, but it was very different.

01:09:47.300 And I think that's because for most of the history of that country, the modern history

01:09:51.460 of that country, when you're getting asked questions by somebody, it's not a good thing.

01:09:54.640 It doesn't matter who's asking you the questions, whether it's an enable or whether it's a government

01:09:58.320 official, doesn't matter.

01:10:00.080 Anybody that takes an interest and asks you questions, uh, so the radar goes up.

01:10:05.000 Very suspicious and it's not a good thing for most of Russian history to get asked questions.

01:10:09.240 So I really, I ran into that and people were suspicious right off the bat, which was really

01:10:14.140 interesting to me that I didn't anticipate, right?

01:10:16.040 Cause I, if I thought about it ahead of time, I probably would have, uh, come to that conclusion,

01:10:19.900 but I didn't, I was so busy, right.

01:10:21.360 You wouldn't have known so busy, but, uh, but yeah, it was very interesting.

01:10:24.660 So I had to kind of pull this stuff out, you know, develop those relationships, develop

01:10:27.780 that trust.

01:10:28.520 Uh, but even so, even though they knew I was writing a fictional novel and the whole deal, they,

01:10:32.920 uh, it was still a different dynamic than it was in Mozambique, but got some great stuff

01:10:37.060 there and was able over the last couple of weeks to weave that into the fabric of the

01:10:40.560 story because it was done before I left, but I knew I wanted that boots on the ground

01:10:44.180 experience so I could add that, that authenticity to the novel.

01:10:47.440 I could, Hey, what kind of snowmobiles do they use around here?

01:10:49.300 What kind of sleds?

01:10:50.060 And I, and they have some weird ones over there.

01:10:52.260 They have a single ski in front instead of the dual.

01:10:54.780 And that's because as they're going through this tundra or whatever, the dual, uh, skis in

01:10:59.620 the front are more apt to catch on something.

01:11:01.880 They catch, right?

01:11:02.820 Yeah.

01:11:03.020 So they have this single ski in front is crazy.

01:11:05.280 So, uh, so we've got some great stuff over there.

01:11:07.120 I got to weave that into the novel, uh, but I didn't bring a computer.

01:11:10.320 I didn't bring a phone.

01:11:11.300 I didn't bring anything because the third novel is really, uh, Russia centric in that,

01:11:17.060 uh, it talks about Russian mafia.

01:11:18.800 It talks about the Russian mafia relationship to the intelligence services over there.

01:11:23.720 And I didn't want to get pulled into an interrogation room and have them open my computer and

01:11:27.240 go through this, even though it's fiction, uh, go through this with me for a little

01:11:30.200 while.

01:11:30.500 So did you document it on, on paper?

01:11:32.760 Like, how did you document this stuff?

01:11:34.240 Yeah.

01:11:34.400 I had a notebook and, uh, which, which is challenging because my writing is, uh, it's

01:11:39.620 part of my encryption that, uh, it's very hard to decipher.

01:11:42.360 So, uh, so I have to decipher all that in this, uh, I, after we do this podcast, I'll

01:11:48.560 be sitting down and transferring all those notes into Scrivener, which is a program that

01:11:54.120 really helps you organize, uh, your, your thoughts and your chapters, uh, for, for writing

01:11:59.200 a novel.

01:11:59.740 So I'll outline it in Scrivener.

01:12:02.380 So I'll have it all in a typed out in a way that makes sense.

01:12:05.500 But yeah, fourth one is, uh, is ready to go as far as a, uh, an outline.

01:12:09.180 And now the next step is, uh, can you give us any hints there as, as I think we'll just

01:12:13.660 hint on Savage Son.

01:12:14.960 So, uh, yeah, so fair enough, fair enough.

01:12:17.420 I got, I got to try, you know, I got to develop it a little more, but it's, uh, yeah, it's

01:12:21.220 all, all outlined.

01:12:22.280 And then once again, I have a couple of those places where I'm like, Hmm, how am I going

01:12:25.100 to solve this?

01:12:25.700 Oh, I'll figure it out over the next six, seven, eight months as I write.

01:12:29.840 Uh, so I'm, I'm super fired up to, to dive in.

01:12:32.200 Cause I just, I love it.

01:12:33.840 Well, I can tell, I mean, I can tell you love it.

01:12:35.780 I can, I I've read, I've read, uh, Terminalist and True Believer and looking forward to Savage

01:12:40.400 Son.

01:12:41.220 Um, yeah, you can tell you pour it into it and, uh, I really enjoy it.

01:12:44.900 I don't read a whole lot of fiction.

01:12:46.500 In fact, in fact, the last two fiction books I read were the two I just mentioned your two

01:12:51.140 books.

01:12:51.600 Thank you.

01:12:52.260 So I appreciate all the work.

01:12:53.900 Oh, of course, man.

01:12:54.620 I want to support you.

01:12:55.460 And then not to mention, I enjoy the entertainment.

01:12:57.840 I enjoy the, the dynamics and learning.

01:13:00.760 And then of course, seeing all the research that goes into what you're doing.

01:13:03.560 And I'm always fascinated by that.

01:13:05.400 So, uh, any, any plans for, you know, hitting it, hitting a big screen or anything like that

01:13:11.100 that you can allude to?

01:13:12.060 I don't know where we are with that or if that's something that's coming on board or not.

01:13:15.500 Yeah.

01:13:15.680 So unfortunately I still can't announce it, but, uh, and it could be derailing right now

01:13:19.720 and I wouldn't know.

01:13:20.440 Right.

01:13:20.640 So I'm keeping my expectations very low.

01:13:22.620 Probably a good idea.

01:13:23.240 So that, yeah.

01:13:23.920 So that if it actually happens, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

01:13:26.160 Yes.

01:13:26.400 But, uh, as of right now, there's a, uh, you have a date on the calendar to start filming.

01:13:29.840 There's a, there's a, there's a director, there's a screenwriter, uh, there's financing.

01:13:34.200 So, um, but of course I've heard of things derailing the first, well, a week into filming

01:13:39.580 things that have derailed in Hollywood.

01:13:41.440 Yeah.

01:13:41.980 So it can always, it can always go off the tracks.

01:13:44.340 Um, but as of right now it's, uh, it's looking good and I have to wait for the, for them to

01:13:48.680 announce it cause that's much, uh, much better.

01:13:51.000 And I think that I'm hoping that announcement comes right around the time that Savage Sun comes

01:13:54.700 out in April because the timing will be about right for them to start, uh, start filming

01:13:57.960 a few months later.

01:13:58.640 So, uh, at least that's how it is on the calendar.

01:14:00.620 So, so we shall see, we shall see.

01:14:03.140 Right on.

01:14:03.420 Well, I'm excited for you.

01:14:04.560 Um, it's been good to get to know you and develop a friendship and then of course, learn

01:14:07.860 a little bit more about your craft and what you're doing is incredible.

01:14:11.160 So, yeah, thank you.

01:14:12.100 Thank you.

01:14:12.440 And it goes both ways, man.

01:14:13.360 I love following you and seeing what you're doing and that move to Maine.

01:14:15.640 I can't wait to get out there.

01:14:16.520 So we can do this in person.

01:14:17.780 Yep.

01:14:18.080 I've always wanted to go to Maine.

01:14:19.160 I always wanted to hunt out there and, uh, never made it up.

01:14:21.900 And I thought the trail cam's up right now.

01:14:23.620 So we're tracking deer now.

01:14:25.220 So awesome, man.

01:14:26.400 Yeah, I thought when we went to Virginia beach for the seal team out there, um, that, uh,

01:14:30.820 that we'd be able to explore the East coast that I thought we'd be able to go down to

01:14:34.480 like the Bahamas cause it's a lot closer to the East coast than it is to that where I

01:14:37.780 was in California before and then go up to Maine, of course.

01:14:41.420 And I thought we'd go like sea kayak up there and do all that.

01:14:44.680 And no, we, we, I don't think we ever left Virginia beach because that was 2000.

01:14:49.460 I got there in 2003, early 2003 and immediately went to Afghanistan.

01:14:54.820 And, uh, right after that did went to Haiti, right after that went to Iraq and Iraq again.

01:14:59.700 So it was just like, boom, boom, boom, boom.

01:15:01.980 And the whole rest of the time training.

01:15:03.920 So there was no time to go explore any of those places.

01:15:06.860 So, uh, I'm very excited to get to Maine, very excited to have an excuse to, to come

01:15:11.160 out there and see you and see the family and sit down and do a podcast and, uh, and then

01:15:15.820 check it out.

01:15:16.300 Cause it's a, what a beautiful state.

01:15:17.800 It's amazing.

01:15:18.280 And we'll get you out here in more favorable circumstances than the last time you were

01:15:21.740 out here.

01:15:22.120 So awesome.

01:15:23.360 Sounds good.

01:15:23.980 Yeah.

01:15:24.180 East coast.

01:15:24.740 Yeah.

01:15:24.940 Sounds good.

01:15:25.840 Well, um, let me ask you a couple of questions as we wind things down.

01:15:28.800 The first one is what does it mean to be a man?

01:15:31.520 Yeah.

01:15:31.880 So it's that, uh, being self-reliant, being able to provide for your family, being able

01:15:37.140 to defend your family and recognizing how important it is to raise good, productive citizens.

01:15:43.360 So I think that really, for me anyway, encapsulates what it means to be a man.

01:15:48.540 Right on.

01:15:49.220 I love it.

01:15:49.760 I love it.

01:15:50.180 And I agree.

01:15:50.960 Uh, how do we connect with you?

01:15:52.100 Learn more about what you're up to and, and pick up the books of course, as well.

01:15:55.780 Yeah.

01:15:56.140 So, uh, officialjackcar.com is the website and on there, there's a lot more deep dive

01:16:02.140 into the gear in the novels, what I used in the SEAL teams, that sort of thing, uh, updates

01:16:07.660 on book tours and all the rest of it.

01:16:09.840 So that's all in there.

01:16:10.600 There's a section on military insight that, uh, I just take little, little snippets of

01:16:15.720 things I think about along the way, uh, leadership tactics, history, whatever it is, those are

01:16:19.860 going up there, uh, about, but a lot of questions about a reading list.

01:16:24.160 And before I left the military, the, uh, uh, Naval Special Warfare Center asked me to put

01:16:28.560 together a professional reading list.

01:16:30.440 Uh, so I did, I broke it down by sections and, uh, and then I explained why each one of

01:16:34.820 these sections was important for professional development.

01:16:37.360 And I just turned it in and I have no idea if they ever incorporated it, any of it, all

01:16:41.820 of it, whatever.

01:16:43.060 But, uh, I'm going to start doing a, uh, every month, pick six books, some from that, some

01:16:47.480 from the fiction that I read well throughout my whole life, uh, why it was influential to

01:16:52.580 me, give a little explanation of like where I was in my life when I read it, why I think

01:16:56.580 it's important, uh, how it influenced me going forward.

01:16:59.220 Um, so, so I'm going to kick that off soon.

01:17:01.900 So just a little, a little other ways to, uh, for people to, uh, to engage a little, learn

01:17:06.000 a little bit more about, uh, what goes into the novels and really be transparent about

01:17:10.100 the, uh, the process as people follow along on this journey and hopefully inspire a couple

01:17:14.380 of people along the way to do whatever it is they want to do.

01:17:17.680 Um, so officialjackcar.com is the website.

01:17:19.820 And then on the socials, uh, I'm Jack Carr USA.

01:17:23.060 So three, it was too many.

01:17:26.100 So Facebook, Instagram, and, uh, and Twitter exist as far as Jack Carr USA, but on Facebook,

01:17:31.480 it's a repost or whatever that's called from Instagram because they're enough.

01:17:36.400 Yeah.

01:17:36.640 Three was just too many.

01:17:38.100 And I really, for sure.

01:17:39.540 Oh man.

01:17:40.160 So, uh, so there, so I engage with people on Instagram and on Twitter and I try to get

01:17:45.380 back to, to everyone because at this stage I can still do that and I'm still, um, and I

01:17:50.420 feel very fortunate and I feel, uh, so thankful that people read the novels, that they've resonated

01:17:57.600 with people and almost most importantly, that they've then spread the word because word of

01:18:02.560 mouth is so powerful and it used to just be around the office cooler.

01:18:06.560 Um, and now with everyone having a platform, that word of mouth is so powerful via social

01:18:12.580 media that I, uh, I really feel grateful to everybody that's, uh, said they've enjoyed

01:18:17.860 it and spread the words to their, their circle of influence.

01:18:20.740 So I try to get back to everybody and say, thank you.

01:18:22.960 Um, and if I missed you, it's just because I Twitter algorithm somehow, I just, I have

01:18:27.920 a blue check mark now and it messed everything up and now they're, I don't know, it's hard

01:18:31.360 to figure out sometimes, but, uh, but I try to get back to everybody on Instagram and Twitter

01:18:35.140 and really engage with people on those platforms.

01:18:37.460 Right on.

01:18:37.740 Well, I appreciate your generosity with your time, not, not just now, just in your friendship

01:18:41.000 and, and what I see you do and how you interact with the community.

01:18:43.660 It means a lot to me.

01:18:44.860 It means a lot to them and just appreciate you and you taking some time today.

01:18:48.460 Thanks brother.

01:18:48.960 Oh, thank you so much.

01:18:50.240 Appreciate it.

01:18:50.760 And looking forward to doing this in person sometime.

01:18:52.740 Absolutely.

01:18:54.560 Guys, there you go.

01:18:55.460 I hope you enjoyed that conversation with my friend, Jack Carr.

01:18:58.240 Uh, if you haven't picked up a copy of his book, true believer yet, please go do that.

01:19:02.520 Uh, if you haven't picked up his first book terminal list, do that first, uh, because it

01:19:06.800 is a series and you'll want to, uh, read the entire series.

01:19:11.100 So I hope you enjoyed it.

01:19:12.700 Connect with, uh, Jack on social media, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, wherever you and him are

01:19:17.780 doing the social media thing.

01:19:18.840 Obviously we talked a little bit about social media on the podcast today.

01:19:22.260 Connect with me on social media as well.

01:19:24.200 Uh, let me know what you liked about the conversation.

01:19:26.800 Uh, let me know what you think about the book.

01:19:28.760 Uh, I think you're really going to enjoy it and it'll be a good opportunity for you to,

01:19:32.480 to read, which is a practice that I think we all can agree is, is a productive one.

01:19:37.940 So that's it guys for today.

01:19:39.740 Uh, as I sign out, I want to thank you for being part of this journey and this process

01:19:44.440 and this, this battle with me.

01:19:45.960 And I say battle very deliberately.

01:19:48.000 Uh, it is a battle.

01:19:49.100 Life is a battle.

01:19:50.200 Uh, it's a battle to be the types of fathers and husbands and leaders of our community and

01:19:54.580 coaches and business owners.

01:19:56.620 And again, whatever facet of life you're showing up as it, it's a battle and we need to take

01:20:01.040 it seriously.

01:20:01.480 We need to equip ourselves with the tools and the resources and the conversations.

01:20:04.760 And I'm hope that I'm able to add some of that to you and help enhance your life.

01:20:10.260 If that is the case, I would ask as I part to, uh, leave a rating and review on iTunes

01:20:15.620 goes a very, very long way, uh, into growing the visibility in what we're doing here.

01:20:20.580 And of course, uh, getting this information into the hands and ears of those men who need

01:20:24.800 to hear it also leave a rating and review if you would.

01:20:28.420 All right, guys, I'm going to sign out.

01:20:30.180 We'll be back tomorrow for my, ask me anything with my co-host Kip Sorenson.

01:20:33.700 And then of course, Friday for your Friday field notes.

01:20:36.140 But until then go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

01:20:40.880 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast.

01:20:43.720 You're ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be.

01:20:47.700 We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - October 15, 2019

True Believer ｜ JACK CARR

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