Order of Man - VIC KELLER ｜ Instinct, Intentionality, and Innovation

00:00:00.000 The most powerful benefit of this podcast is that each and every week we get to listen to

00:00:04.520 ultra successful men, learn what makes them tick, hear which pitfalls to avoid,

00:00:09.340 and simply apply those beneficial lessons into our own lives. And my guest today is someone

00:00:14.980 eminently qualified to impart his hard fought wisdom on both the professional and personal

00:00:20.280 front. He is serial entrepreneur, Vic Keller. And today we talk about the power of utilizing

00:00:25.980 our instinct and how that can also be developed contrary to popular belief. We talk about

00:00:30.960 intentionality and innovation to create long lasting results in our lives. We also cover the

00:00:36.040 difference between gurus and guides and how to spot each a simple formula for how the human

00:00:41.880 operating system works, why you should strongly, strongly consider hiring mentors, how to decide

00:00:47.700 what defines you and so much more. You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your

00:00:53.280 fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time,

00:00:59.000 every time. You are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life.

00:01:06.080 This is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and done,

00:01:12.120 you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? So good to be back with you.

00:01:17.700 I really enjoy doing this podcast. I hope you get value from it. That's what drives me.

00:01:22.160 That's what compels me. That's what motivates me to continue to do this work. We've been going

00:01:27.060 strong for nearly eight and a half years now. So very close to coming up on this decade of doing

00:01:34.060 this order of man business and movement and work. And I just want to thank you for being on the path

00:01:39.180 and being on the journey with us. Couldn't do it without you. I've got a very, very powerful

00:01:43.800 conversation lined up today. A lot of us are family men. A lot of us are business owners. And

00:01:49.540 sometimes it's hard to find ways to be successful in both. I know I've certainly had my fair share of

00:01:56.300 being good in both and falling behind in both. And I try to try to maintain a certain level of,

00:02:03.340 of performance, I should say in, in each of those categories, but it, but it's, it's difficult,

00:02:09.000 but my guest today is going to explain how to do that and give us some insight in, in, in ideas

00:02:14.700 and how to make that work. Now, before I get into it, just want to mention very quickly, I was looking

00:02:18.820 at some statistics over on YouTube. Uh, guys, we're almost at 300,000 subscribers on YouTube

00:02:25.940 right now. That with the fact that my account is being greatly hindered over there, but we're not

00:02:32.500 going to, we're not going to allow that to deter us because so many people do get our message there.

00:02:36.300 I'm in the process of improving our podcast studio. In fact, I've got over here on my desk,

00:02:41.580 a brand new camera, uh, a screen, a teleprompter, uh, some other recording devices, some lights,

00:02:48.400 cause we're going to ramp up the studio. And if you want to take a look at the production quality,

00:02:51.840 go check it out at YouTube and you'll see that improve over the coming weeks and months.

00:02:55.960 And also if you just want to see my face for whatever reason, or any of my guests,

00:03:00.480 and that's a format you like, I would encourage you to go check out the order of man channel over

00:03:04.520 on YouTube and help us bump up over that 300,000 mark. Once we hit that, then we're on to half a

00:03:09.380 million. Then we're going to hit a million. So help us, uh, by going over there, subscribing

00:03:13.440 and sharing the message there. Now guys, let's get to my guest today. His name is Vic Keller.

00:03:19.480 And as I said earlier, serial entrepreneur, one of the most successful businessmen alive. And just

00:03:25.280 to give you a small idea in sampling, uh, his organizations were acquired by Warren Buffett's

00:03:30.120 Berkshire Hathaway. And he was able to learn from Buffett himself. Uh, he's also created multiple,

00:03:35.460 multiple businesses, some of which you certainly use that have generated over $11 billion in revenue.

00:03:42.420 Uh, he's the founder of KLV capital and experienced ventures. And he's using his skillset that he's

00:03:49.540 learned in business and life for how to teach, to start, uh, to scale, to sell businesses. And then

00:03:57.140 most importantly, using business as a tool for creating the life that we all desire. Enjoy this one,

00:04:03.160 gents. Vic, what's up, brother? It's so great to see you. Thanks for joining me on the podcast today,

00:04:08.140 man. I'm glad to be here, Ryan. Thanks for having me. Yeah. I've been looking forward to it. Michael,

00:04:13.020 uh, reached out to me and he had shared a little bit about what you're up to. And I, I did my,

00:04:16.720 my due diligence. I did my research, which is something I know you're familiar with.

00:04:20.400 And I was like, Oh yeah, we got to have this guy on the podcast. If it doesn't serve anybody else,

00:04:24.420 it serves me. I'm like, all right, what can I talk to them about that? I need coaching with.

00:04:28.060 That's one of the greatest benefits of the podcasting space.

00:04:30.620 That's great, man. Well, I'm glad to, uh, share with you anything I know and I've learned. I've

00:04:35.840 been through the school of, uh, hard knocks a few times. So there's a little, uh, carnage and

00:04:40.720 some success that I'm happy to share. Have you, uh, have you always been an entrepreneur? I've found

00:04:45.600 that a lot of people or, or business owner, I don't know what, what, what term, what label do you

00:04:50.200 prefer? Is it entrepreneur? Is it business owner? How do you look at yourself, man? I, you know,

00:04:55.380 it seems that this entrepreneur term, uh, is kind of the, the prevalent term that everyone talks

00:05:00.840 about. Have you ever tried to spell entrepreneur? It's gotta be like one of the hardest words in the

00:05:05.900 world to spell. Yeah. Yeah. To this day, after being an entrepreneur for 25 years, I'm like, Oh,

00:05:12.180 every time I, you know, thank God for spell checks. So yeah, I know you were on, uh, I know you're on

00:05:17.080 Dave Ramsey and I like the concept of entree leadership just cause it's easier for me to spell

00:05:21.820 than entrepreneurship. So, yeah, it is easier to spell. It's, I don't know if it's easier to say,

00:05:26.900 but it's definitely easier to spell. So yeah, you know, my career started out as a, uh, you know,

00:05:32.320 I came from, uh, you know, kind of a middle-class family and, uh, we didn't have a ton of resources and

00:05:37.480 I, I love the idea of, uh, the creativity of business. And so, you know, I made my circuit

00:05:44.140 through working through fast food chains and waiting tables and all the jobs you could think of. And,

00:05:50.040 uh, you know, at some point in time, I decided that I was going to give it a go and be an

00:05:54.780 entrepreneur. And, uh, you know, I think I made that decision when I had nothing to lose

00:05:59.240 everything to gain. Uh, so I was kind of starting from zero and, and, and went from there, but yeah,

00:06:04.780 I've, I've enjoyed the last 25 years of my career, uh, building businesses and building teams and

00:06:09.700 working with people. So probably a fair term. Well, so what was your first jump into the

00:06:14.820 entrepreneurship world? Was it mowing lawns at, you know, 10 years old, trying to solicit your

00:06:18.620 neighbors or was it something that developed a little bit later in life? Cause I, and the reason

00:06:23.080 I ask is for me, I was never, never like upselling baseball cards in the schoolyard. Like a lot of

00:06:28.980 these guys you hear about entrepreneurship. I grew up thinking that you, you go to school and you get

00:06:35.160 good grades. And, you know, if you can go to college, good, it wasn't pushed at what it wasn't

00:06:39.100 not pushed. Um, but you work at a job and you work your nine to five entrepreneurship didn't come

00:06:44.680 until I was about 28, maybe some, somewhere in there, 20, 27, 28 years old. What was like for

00:06:53.340 you though? Yeah. So for me, it was, I got out of college. I put myself through college and, um,

00:06:59.360 I don't know if that was a great use of time in hindsight, but, um, went to college, got out

00:07:04.040 and, um, you know, I did a lot of odd, small things while I was a teenager, a young guy trying

00:07:08.700 to scrap and make a little bit of money. Um, you know, I, I, I had to buy things like my first

00:07:13.220 car, so I needed some cash. And so I had these odd jobs. And, uh, when I got out of college,

00:07:18.160 um, I went to work for JP Morgan and, uh, but I had a young family. I had kind of a unplanned

00:07:24.020 young family. I had a wife who I've been married to for nearly 27 years. I had, uh, two young

00:07:29.880 sons and, um, and you know, the, the wage I was making at the bank wasn't cutting it.

00:07:35.400 And I needed to do something that was kind of a side hustle to make some money. And I owned

00:07:39.760 a lawnmower and, uh, and I had my two hands. So I decided I would start, uh, doing some

00:07:45.180 landscaping and mowing some lawns. So, um, you know, I was kind of putting on a shirt

00:07:49.160 and a tie and, you know, 22 years old driving to JP Morgan and racing home and going and

00:07:54.460 cutting a few yards to make some extra cash. So, you know, I, there's a lot of things I

00:07:58.340 did along the way, but I would say that was, that was my first business. And, uh, let me

00:08:02.560 tell you, it was not glamorous. Um, I figured out that I needed to build businesses that

00:08:07.160 had teams of people and that I could scale and I could grow because, uh, if I was going

00:08:12.260 to be the sole source of labor, you know, me and that lawnmower, we were probably going

00:08:16.080 to have some limited success.

00:08:18.820 It's, uh, it's interesting that you say lawnmower, cause I didn't know when I, when I use that

00:08:23.040 example of mowing lawns, I didn't know that. So it's funny that you would say that you can,

00:08:26.900 you might also be able to hear there's a young man actually mowing our lawn right now. You

00:08:31.760 might actually be able to hear it. So he's out here mowing the lawn right now. So it's

00:08:35.460 funny that you talk about that right now.

00:08:37.800 No, no, it's great. It's great. And I, I spent, listen, I spent a few years at JP Morgan,

00:08:42.240 a couple of years, and I decided that I probably wasn't going to be able to be a great rule

00:08:46.120 follower. And, um, and that I wanted to go be entrepreneurial and I wanted to start my

00:08:50.920 own business. And so I started my own business at 23, 24 years old. I really got going. And,

00:08:56.400 um, you know, the last, the last 24, 25 years I've started, um, I think 14 different

00:09:02.080 companies and, and love it. And it, it is, uh, you know, my identity is in being, uh, you

00:09:08.560 know, a husband and a dad and a friend. Um, but I will tell you my passion and what I get

00:09:14.560 so fired up about is building companies and helping people build companies. Um, it, to

00:09:20.560 me, it's just, it's a blank canvas and it's creative and there's so much mystery involved,

00:09:26.400 right? You have no idea if it's going to succeed or fail. And, you know, you don't know what's

00:09:31.440 around the corner, but I love the mystery that comes along with being an entrepreneur

00:09:35.760 and starting businesses. So it's kind of, it's been, it's been my deal for, for a good

00:09:40.420 while. And sometimes it looks really pretty, um, up front and it's really messy in the

00:09:44.980 background. Um, and I've learned along the way and, and it's been, it's been a blast.

00:09:50.420 That's, that's awesome. I I'm really curious about, I'm taking notes as we do this. Cause

00:09:55.120 again, this is for me just as much as it might be anybody who happens to listen. Uh, the,

00:10:00.260 you said something that doesn't resonate real well with me and that is creating teams of people.

00:10:06.640 I I've always struggled with that. I, I like to do things semi solo, meaning I'll bring people in

00:10:13.360 periodically to help me with different things. And I like having good guys around me and we have a

00:10:16.980 really, really good team of people. I don't know how much I want to continue to build these teams of

00:10:23.060 people as much as it is use this tight knit community of guys that we have right now to

00:10:27.200 fulfill different roles. Like what are your thoughts on that at the pros and cons of having

00:10:32.140 this big team versus doing it on your own? You know, I think Ryan, it, it just depends what

00:10:37.080 your agenda is, what your mission is, what you're after. Um, you know, as, as a young entrepreneur,

00:10:41.700 um, I was after cashflow, I was trying to make a living. I was trying to support my family.

00:10:46.440 Um, and so it was a lot about me. It was a lot about what I was capable of doing. I mean,

00:10:51.360 I was the sales guy. I was the warehouse manager, the office manager, the marketing specialist,

00:10:56.300 um, painfully, I was the guy navigating QuickBooks, trying to figure out accounting. Um, and, and I

00:11:02.040 built a business that had cashflow, but I think it really depends what your mission is. If your

00:11:07.080 mission is that you want to build a business that has enterprise value and it stands beyond just you,

00:11:13.880 um, and you have the opportunity. Um, and one of the cool things that I learned kind of later in my

00:11:19.380 professional career was the whole concept that you could actually build a business that has

00:11:24.180 enterprise value and it's significantly worth, uh, more to the marketplace than it's worth to you.

00:11:30.980 And so you could take, uh, and build something that, that you could get handsomely paid for.

00:11:36.820 I mean, even if you didn't get handsomely paid for it, you were building a legacy. So I think it just

00:11:41.140 depends what your mission or what your goals are early on. I was just trying to make a living and,

00:11:45.360 and, uh, you know, people were, you know, transparently, I couldn't afford to hire

00:11:49.360 people. Um, and I wasn't good at managing people. I wasn't good at leading people.

00:11:53.720 And so in my mind, I was kind of like, man, they're kind of a pain in the ass.

00:11:57.160 And, uh, in today's age, here I am building businesses and, and I talk openly with my teams

00:12:03.700 about this. It is so hard to find people that are missionally driven, that are focused, that are

00:12:09.420 committed, that really want to give it their all and build something extraordinary. So, um, it's hard

00:12:15.040 to find those people, but if you can find those people and you can figure out how to motivate them

00:12:20.480 and lead them and, you know, lead them with compassion and empathy and give them an ownership

00:12:25.360 mindset and create a paradigm where, uh, they're going to, you know, feel like the business is as

00:12:30.500 much theirs as it is yours. You're going to build enterprise value and you're going to get, you know,

00:12:35.780 a lot out of it. So it just depends if you're, if you're building a business that really is

00:12:40.380 kind of, um, I don't want to say a hobby, but it's something that, that, you know, just you enjoy

00:12:45.580 doing it. It provides some free cashflow. You're not trying to build enterprise value. Um, there's

00:12:52.500 just so much creativity in today's marketplace where you can find people that are out there that want

00:12:57.880 to, you know, freelance, they want to be contract labor. They want to help out. And it's a great

00:13:02.260 business model. There's nothing wrong with it, but it just depends what your goals are, you know?

00:13:07.200 Yeah. I think that's a good point. I look at, as you're talking about that,

00:13:10.100 I'm looking through my own lens as far as enterprise value, that isn't something I'm

00:13:14.040 completely interested in. And I, and I say that because I've have people, for example,

00:13:17.960 who will say, you know, what is your exit strategy? I know what they're asking.

00:13:21.720 The question doesn't compute for me because I just don't have one. Like my exit strategy is

00:13:26.620 continue to do this for as long as I possibly can and continue to innovate and continue to

00:13:31.140 serve and help the guys we're trying to serve. So I don't have that big push for that enterprise

00:13:37.340 value as much as I do cashflow and making sure that we have the ability to innovate,

00:13:42.140 which I know is an important factor for you. But then I also think about the, the mission

00:13:46.420 driven people. I'm glad you brought that up because one thing we've been able to do,

00:13:49.980 and this has been really valuable is bring people up through our organization that were originally

00:13:54.200 clients to varying degrees of what we're doing, who have now stepped into roles because I recognize

00:13:59.680 that they're good at certain things. They have a certain skillset or characteristics that would

00:14:05.700 make them good in certain spots. And we've built a really solid team based on,

00:14:09.540 I think, almost exclusively clients of the business originally.

00:14:14.380 That's awesome. That's awesome. You know, it's funny. Somebody recently asked me, they said,

00:14:20.120 Vic, I've heard you on some podcasts and seen you in different places. Like what's your motivation?

00:14:24.500 What's your ambition? And you know, it's for me, if I have anything to market, it's that I had the

00:14:30.740 privilege today to owning a lot of different companies and operating those companies. And

00:14:35.680 every day, the biggest challenge I have is finding world-class people that can come join our teams.

00:14:41.380 And rather it's building, you know, complex, you know, firearms that we build at Christiansen Arms

00:14:47.700 or building robotic car wash systems that we build at Autek, whatever it may be. You know,

00:14:52.920 I'm always looking for talent. So from even, even being here with you, Ryan, I mean,

00:14:57.440 I love sharing my story and talking about it, but you know, if there's any exposure we're looking

00:15:01.380 for, we're always looking for great people to join these companies. There's never, there's never

00:15:07.100 too many of them. So it's super cool to hear that you've been able to build your business with a

00:15:12.140 support network of clients. And I think there's a lot to be learned from that is that if you can

00:15:17.480 really give people the ability to see your business and to see your heart and to see your

00:15:22.320 mission and see what you're being courageous about and what you want to do, and they can

00:15:26.680 understand that, you know, you're going to have alignment when they join you, right?

00:15:30.660 They're going to be excited about your mission. They've, they've had it. So, you know, we're in

00:15:34.300 unique spots where we're able to say, Hey, here's who we are. Here's what defines us. Here's what

00:15:40.800 gets us fired up. Here's what we're going after and, and bringing in those people. And think about

00:15:45.460 this, think about how many companies hire people blindly and you have people that are looking for a job

00:15:51.600 and you have employers that are looking for, for people to come to work. And there's not a lot of

00:15:57.600 alignment and values and beliefs when you do that. But when you're able to truly be transparent and

00:16:02.880 say, Hey, this is who I am. This is what I'm about. This is what we do. And the people come to you

00:16:08.860 that say, Hey, this guy aligns, this lady aligns with what my mission is and what I'm trying to

00:16:14.620 accomplish. So yeah, I could, I mean, for you, it's great, right? You probably have a long list

00:16:18.920 of people that would love to be a part of this great work that you're doing. And, uh, you know,

00:16:23.660 you don't have room for all of them. Now I'm an entrepreneur in the mindset of, if I have a long

00:16:28.340 list of people that, that are like, Hey, I want to be a part of it. Hell, I'll start a new business

00:16:33.820 for them. I mean, I, I, I tell people often, um, the only thing that slows me down from starting the

00:16:40.100 next company or for making an acquisition of a business is knowing that I have world-class talent

00:16:46.500 to be able to plug into those spots. So, you know, if you have an entrepreneurial mindset,

00:16:50.840 there's endless opportunity where the shortage is, is with great talent that wants to join

00:16:56.400 alongside and work with you. Do you, do you have any concerns though, about your, I think you said

00:17:02.440 you've started roughly or, or maybe even more, but you, at this point, maybe, and I can't remember

00:17:06.860 exactly what you said, but 14 different companies, uh, when you decide to acquire a company or to start a

00:17:13.260 new business to fulfill this, like you're saying, is there a worry that you're going to spread your

00:17:17.640 time too thin? Cause I know family's important to you. Obviously you have your own personal goals

00:17:21.680 that may, may not be professional goals. They're personal goals. Like at what point is enough,

00:17:27.960 enough, or you feel like, Hey, I'm going to get spread too thin. So these companies I have now are

00:17:32.540 good. How does that work? Cause I can't envision doing more work than I am right now, honestly.

00:17:38.400 Yeah, it's, it's a struggle. It's a struggle. I mean, there's no,

00:17:41.740 I don't have some really, um, well thought out articulated answer to that. That, that makes it

00:17:47.660 sound perfect is what I can tell you is, um, my wife and my two sons have been on this journey with

00:17:54.600 me for, you know, call it 26, 27 years. And, um, we have a very, very close family. Um, my sons are

00:18:02.220 amazing men and, uh, I've had a great time raising them and showing them what it means to be a man and

00:18:09.300 what it looks like to be a man. But, uh, Ryan, I, I will tell you, there's not many sporting events,

00:18:14.620 uh, that my kids were involved with that I missed. Um, you know, there's not many things in life that

00:18:19.860 I feel like I've missed with my family. I've always been really intentional, um, about being

00:18:24.940 available for my family and being involved with my family. So I think the, the answer to the question

00:18:31.140 for me has been, uh, exactly what we were talking about. If I can find great people and I can surround

00:18:37.540 myself with great people and create opportunities for them, then these businesses and these missions

00:18:42.960 shouldn't require 120% of my attention. Now, um, the challenge is focus, right? The challenge is

00:18:50.580 what's the most important thing going on right now and where do you spend your time? And, you know,

00:18:55.540 there are some mornings that I wake up and I'm, I'm involved in, you know, if I just go through the

00:19:00.500 day of all the different businesses I'm involved with, um, it sounds complex and daunting and it feels

00:19:06.560 that way at the end of the day, a lot of times, but it all comes back to people. It all comes back

00:19:12.120 to people. If you have the ability, um, and the opportunity to attract great talent and equip them

00:19:18.240 and empower them and say, you know what, go win big. You're going to fail along the way and go get

00:19:22.720 it done. That creates margin in my life. Um, and I have time and energy. So, um, it, it, if I laid

00:19:29.720 everything out for you in those 14 companies, and even today, my portfolio and everything I have going on,

00:19:34.440 you know, it would sound like, um, you know, it would be a fallacy of sounding like I'm some

00:19:39.240 extraordinary Superman. Um, the reality, the reality of it is, man, I'm no Superman. I mean,

00:19:45.220 I'm failing and struggling and learning, you know, and trying to learn new things every single day,

00:19:50.200 but is what's allowing the wheels to continue to turn in everything that I'm involved with,

00:19:55.480 even my family. I mean, I think about my wife and how she keeps, you know, our family together and

00:20:00.640 emotion, but everything that I'm involved with is as strong as the people that are involved in it

00:20:06.400 with me. It's not about me. And, and it really, I mean, I don't say that to sound humble. Um, I mean,

00:20:11.900 it's just, it's impossible. It couldn't be about me. I think we're, and I'm just trying to think about

00:20:17.580 the men who listen to this conversation, what they're thinking. And if I'm putting myself in

00:20:22.020 their shoes, one of the biggest struggles I personally remember, and I'm sure a lot of these

00:20:25.600 guys are dealing with is when you have your first hire or you decide to bring somebody on,

00:20:31.240 whether it's a partner or a contracted employee or, or a contractor or an employee is that's going

00:20:37.160 to cut into your bottom line. And a lot of guys feel that, right? I know that was really scary for

00:20:42.940 me. If I have to pay this person a commission or a percentage or part of ownership, then that's,

00:20:48.860 that's less on the table for me. That was really difficult for me to wrap my head around

00:20:52.820 until I just pulled the trigger and did it. And I realized, okay, whatever I'm paying this

00:20:57.880 individual and however I'm paying is more than making up for it in my time for creative flexibility,

00:21:04.260 my time to start new businesses, my time to increase products or do sales, which is what

00:21:09.900 I personally like. And it made up for itself in droves over and over again.

00:21:14.440 It's, um, it's a long game mindset. It's a long game mindset when you're hiring people,

00:21:20.540 uh, you know, one of the most important things that, um, any business professional,

00:21:25.400 whether you're a company or you're an individual entrepreneur, that's thinking about going from

00:21:29.280 being a solopreneur to grow on a team, the most important thing you can possibly do

00:21:33.540 is to make sure you onboard people, right. And set the expectations and give them, um,

00:21:39.560 really a map. Um, don't try to be a guru to them, try to be a guide and give them a map of,

00:21:44.880 of really where you want to go. And let me just tell you, Ryan, um, I've seen

00:21:49.220 the biggest and had the opportunity to, to operate, you know, multi-billion dollar P and

00:21:54.560 L companies all the way down to solo companies where it's just me and, uh, where I'm growing

00:22:00.000 that business. And in all cases, companies really, really seem to struggle with onboarding

00:22:06.840 people and getting them in the right position. And, um, one of the things that I did as an early

00:22:11.760 entrepreneur is I always had this vision about growing big and scaling, and I wanted to build a

00:22:17.180 big business. And even before I had any of the funding, um, that I would need, which my funding

00:22:22.960 always came from just like you said, selling more, man, I was just selling. And that's how I,

00:22:28.340 that's how I generated revenue to hire the next person. But I always found myself creating job

00:22:33.380 descriptions for people long before I ever hired them. Like I knew I needed to hire this person down

00:22:39.120 the road. So I remember, you know, being 27, 28 years old and I had this, you know, file on my

00:22:44.560 desktop and I had like 10 job descriptions written for the next 10 people I was going to hire and what

00:22:51.480 specifically they were going to do and what that was going to bring to the company. Um, as far as

00:22:56.700 the outcomes and values now, man, I sure wish chat GPT existed back in that time, uh, because I could

00:23:03.320 have gotten this job. I mean, it was a struggle, me sitting down trying to write a job description.

00:23:07.580 You know, today you can write an amazing job description in about three minutes, uh, with AI, but

00:23:12.740 you know, I was always thinking about who is this person, you know, and, and, and honestly, I was

00:23:18.840 praying about it, right? I'm like, who is this person? What does it look like? And I, I visualized

00:23:23.620 it before. I just thought, you know what, I'm going to hire someone and, and bring them on board and

00:23:27.680 hopefully things work out. And by the way, I don't know what the percentages are when you hire people

00:23:32.900 around success and failure, but I've hired the most competent, qualified, high capacity, um,

00:23:41.480 CEOs to operate big businesses that have been complete misses on my part. And I've done the same

00:23:48.060 with, you know, an hourly worker. Um, but when you get, so when you hire someone that is an exceptional

00:23:56.540 talent, or even if they're not an exceptional talent, but they're passionate, they're driven,

00:24:00.680 they're focused, they're disciplined, and they really know how to create outcomes, man. It's

00:24:06.220 like hitting that one good shot in a golf game, right? I'm a horrible golfer. I mean, I I'm not

00:24:11.500 a good golfer, but I truly keep coming back because every once in a while I accidentally hit a 280 yard

00:24:17.120 drive or I sink a pot and I'm like, right. I'm like, yeah, I can do this. I can do it. And I'm the same

00:24:22.920 way with people, man. I'm the exact same way. I mean, like I get so discouraged and beat up because

00:24:28.160 sometimes I make bad hires or I notice people let us down. But when you hire someone that is

00:24:33.500 exceptional and helps you scale and grow your business, man, it is, it is just, it's gotta

00:24:38.900 be the best feeling I have in business is seeing people win. One of the things that I've, I've been

00:24:45.480 able to do that I actually really enjoy this. I'm curious about your thoughts is taking somebody who

00:24:49.760 has an aptitude for certain things, or maybe even is dabbling in a line of work that you need. So

00:24:55.180 one that comes to mind is our podcast editor. His name is Chad Robeson. And, uh, I knew that he

00:25:02.700 wanted to start this podcast editing video production company, but he really wasn't doing,

00:25:10.340 he was doing a little bit here and there. I'm like, cool, let, let me hire you. I'll hire you

00:25:14.060 and you can learn. I'll pay you to learn. And if you have courses and other things that you want,

00:25:18.580 I'll pay for them. You just tell me what they are. And then now to see him doing it full time

00:25:23.100 because of the work that he's doing here, but also because of referrals that I've made and his

00:25:27.360 own efforts and work. I like doing that. I've got other people. I've had video, uh, video guys who

00:25:33.300 were doing some freelance stuff here and there. I'm like, all right, I got to get that guy before

00:25:37.380 he gets big. So let's bring them in. He'll learn on my dime. It's good. It's, it's a positive

00:25:42.880 because they grow. The downside is they end up leaving you because now they're on to bigger and

00:25:46.520 better things, but it's still kind of exciting for me to do it that way.

00:25:50.280 Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I think that's a very, um, common scenario in business

00:25:59.400 today. Is there a lot of people, especially entrepreneurs like yourself, right? I mean,

00:26:03.640 you're an optimally minded guy, you're creative, you're doing great things. You're missionally

00:26:07.560 driven and focused. Um, and these people see that and they want to be part of it. Um, but not only do

00:26:13.040 they want to be part of it, they're also attracted to the fact that you're an entrepreneur and they want

00:26:17.180 to come learn from you and they ultimately want to be an entrepreneur. And, and, uh, it's, it is,

00:26:21.680 it is a, there's healthy tension there. There's healthy tension. And sometimes it could cause you

00:26:25.780 to beat your head against the wall. Right. Cause I've had some great people walk in the office and

00:26:29.340 say, Hey man, I've been so inspired. I've had so much fun. I want to go do my own thing. And, and

00:26:34.140 it's not about me saying, gosh, can we pay you a little more? It's not about that. Um, it's really

00:26:40.420 about, first of all, if I don't think they're going to be a successful entrepreneur,

00:26:43.560 I'll do my very best to talk them out of it. But like you're talking about with Chad,

00:26:47.920 where you're like, man, he's capable, he's competent and he's, he's, he's able. Um, then

00:26:53.340 let's, let's be an advocate for that and equip him and go do it. And that circle that you build

00:26:59.100 of these people, um, that you help launch and support and encourage as they go do their own

00:27:04.640 thing. Um, it's, it's absolutely, you know, it's, it's life-giving, it's fulfilling. So it is,

00:27:09.920 but it's a challenge and listen, I it's, it's, uh, it's a challenge that I have personally. I mean,

00:27:15.540 I know that there's people that work for me that are thinking about starting their own business

00:27:18.880 and I almost feel like it's a race of, can I create and show them more opportunity here

00:27:24.260 than they may have on their own. But at the end of the day, if somebody is,

00:27:27.380 you know, truly intended to be an entrepreneur, um, especially if they're, you know, walking with

00:27:32.680 the Lord, uh, that's, I'm not going to be able to get in the way of that. And I'm just going

00:27:36.640 to support it and help them. Well, I mean, so from, you're talking about the Lord. So

00:27:41.720 from a morality perspective, I think that's our job, right? Is to serve other people and to help

00:27:45.780 them create an abundant lifestyle, but also just from a, from a tactical strategical level. Like

00:27:52.440 I think it's, I think it's better to serve other people, even if they end up leaving and going out

00:27:59.480 on their own and doing their own thing. And you might lose them and you need to bring somebody else

00:28:02.200 in. I think from a strategic sense, I think I said, strategical, that's not a word. That's kind

00:28:06.540 of like George Bush's strategery blunder, but, but from a strategic, so let me just clarify there

00:28:12.300 from a strategic standpoint, those people are going to refer people to you. They're going to

00:28:17.000 make connections. They're going to remember the good work that you did. So from a morality,

00:28:21.560 ethical standpoint, yes. From a strategic tactical standpoint, yes. I just don't understand why people

00:28:26.820 wouldn't work more to help lead other people into going out and doing their own thing, even at some

00:28:31.660 point. Well, I mean, I listen, I'm not, I don't want to have a promotional pitch here, but I'm so

00:28:39.840 passionate about it that, that I've created an entire community and platform called Epic, which

00:28:44.040 stands for entrepreneurs, professionals, innovators, and creators. And you know, I had the privilege to,

00:28:50.400 to stand up at a big university and give a talk here a couple of years ago. And there was a guy that

00:28:55.920 was going to go work for a fortune 100 company. And he was asking me how to navigate the politics

00:29:00.380 inside of a fortune 100 company. Like, what does it look like, man? And I really scratched my head.

00:29:05.700 And I said, man, I said, that just sounds awful. I don't know why everyone doesn't want to be an

00:29:09.760 entrepreneur. Now everyone's up in the cloth of being an entrepreneur, but you know, I I'm with you.

00:29:15.060 I mean, I really believe that it's a, it's a rewarding fun and, and not to use a simple term,

00:29:22.900 but you know, what goes around comes around and, and the people that, you know, I've been able to

00:29:27.900 support and help grow and do their own thing. I can't think of one that it hasn't been beneficial.

00:29:33.300 And by the way, there's been several that have left to go start their own business and have called

00:29:37.540 me a couple of years later and said, Hey, I've, you know, I'd like to come back. This didn't work

00:29:42.040 out. Do you know how much more valuable that individual is when they've gone out and learned

00:29:46.520 what it looks like to manage a business on their own, even if it wasn't successful you know,

00:29:53.180 the, the, the stripes that they earn and what they learn in that process is, is powerful. So

00:29:57.900 I agree with that. I'll tell you a quick, a quick story. Um, and it kind of goes along these lines of

00:30:05.240 I was, I guess, 24, 25 years old and started my first business. And I had a guy walk in my office

00:30:12.200 one day and, um, and I, I, I'll try not to use super foul language, but he walked in my office and

00:30:18.720 he was frustrated with me. And he said, Vic, he said, um, listen, man, he goes, you're given 120%.

00:30:25.640 Like you're, you're doing all you can do and everything you can do. And, and you think you're

00:30:30.940 better than everyone else. And I was like, man, that doesn't sound very good. And, um, he said,

00:30:36.280 you know, you're a fig jam. And he called me a fig jam. And I'm like, man, I don't know what a fig jam

00:30:40.800 is. Ryan, have you ever heard of a fig jam? I don't know that term. No. Okay. Yeah. So he said,

00:30:45.400 I'm a fig jam. And so he wrote fig jam up on this dry erase board in my office. And I'll never

00:30:49.700 forget this in my life. It really transformed, uh, transformed me. And I said, well, you know,

00:30:55.820 what, like what, I'm a fig jam. Like, is that cool? And he's like, no, he goes, it fig jam stands

00:31:02.520 for fuck. I'm great. Just ask me. And I said, what? And he said, yeah, man, you're a fig jam.

00:31:09.840 And he said, he goes, he goes, listen, you can give a hundred for 110, 120, 130% all day long.

00:31:17.060 But if you can surround yourself with people that give 80, 90%, he goes, the multiplier on that's

00:31:23.520 going to be a lot greater than yourself. And, and I'm to this day, I'm kind of critical of the 10X

00:31:29.400 mentality. And I think it goes into what you and I are talking about of, you know, do you want to spend

00:31:35.940 all your time and all your energy, you know, on yourself, or do you want to help other people

00:31:41.620 grow and expand? And, and do you want to help them understand the path to get into 110, 120%,

00:31:47.800 whatever that number is. Right. And so that was transformative for me, um, at, at, at, I think

00:31:53.560 24, 25 years old of man, it doesn't need to be about me because there's only, I can't 10X myself,

00:32:00.600 right? I can't, I mean, I mean, it's just, it's not, I don't know what the right multiplier is,

00:32:05.040 but it's not 10X, but if I can take, you know, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, a hundred other people,

00:32:11.280 and I can help encourage and support and educate and develop those people, um, they are going to be,

00:32:18.720 you know, they're the, the, the multiplier that they're going to provide is going to be way better

00:32:23.300 than myself. And I, I just am thinking about what you and I are talking about. And I believe there's

00:32:29.060 a big problem in society today where, where people are really self-absorbed and that they

00:32:35.440 want to spend every minute of their energy and their time making themselves better. And that really

00:32:41.160 doesn't have a compounding return at some point. Um, it doesn't, their return is go build up other

00:32:47.560 people. Wouldn't, I mean, listen, I, I absolutely want to be shredded. You know, want to, you know,

00:32:53.860 I, I, I, I have a bald head under this ball cap I have on here today for those of you that can see

00:32:58.540 me. And, um, you know, there's a lot of things I desire to have, but it's been much more fulfilling

00:33:03.680 for me to, to focus on myself and other people. And so your comment about, you know, helping other

00:33:11.960 people, um, being a, a, uh, kind of, uh, uh, I would say not selfless, but someone that really

00:33:19.840 is developing and pouring into other people. For me, it's just been much more rewarding and

00:33:24.540 it's liberating. It's liberating, right? Cause I don't have to wake up in the morning and flex and

00:33:29.940 go, okay, how's my bicep looking today? Um, you know, I mean, I'm not saying I don't do that by

00:33:35.200 the way, I wouldn't want you to know that, but anyway, it's not looking, but really it's thinking

00:33:41.220 about, man, how is John doing? How's Sue doing? How's Mike doing going down that list of these people

00:33:47.220 that I work with and think about how are they developing and what are they doing and what does

00:33:51.500 their business look like? Whether they're an employer, they have their own company. It's just

00:33:55.100 been rewarding for me. Yeah. I mean, I agree. I felt the same. I think that's one of the plights

00:33:59.640 of social media is that, you know, we're, we're encouraged to build and develop these quote unquote

00:34:04.780 personal brands and everything's about content, but it revolves around you. I see this a lot,

00:34:09.160 even in this sector, the space that I'm working in is there's always this central figurehead,

00:34:13.600 which I don't think is inherently wrong. I mean, I mean, you, you might make the same case

00:34:18.060 for what we're doing here, but it seems that it's more common that the central figureheads

00:34:24.100 growth and visibility comes at the expense of those around him. And that's what I take issue

00:34:30.640 with is if you're so large that you can't allow other people to shine, then I don't think you're

00:34:37.520 doing your people justice or service. I think you're hindering them and you're stunting their

00:34:41.160 potential growth. It's biblical. I mean, it's biblical, right? I mean, I mean, the reality is

00:34:46.520 that if it, you know, are you, are you trying to be the big God? Are you trying to be a little God?

00:34:51.240 I mean, what are you trying to do? And, um, listen, I'm, I am absolutely a driven, passionate,

00:34:56.760 hard charging, you know, guy and everything I do in my life. And I know that I overshadow people

00:35:02.020 sometimes. Um, and I hate that. I mean, that's not my mission. That's not what I'm after.

00:35:06.420 I get wrapped up in my own ego. Um, but I, when you talk about social media, um, and you talk about,

00:35:13.600 you know, even, even things like what we're doing today, um, I'm really cautious to make sure I'm

00:35:22.280 vocal, not just talking to other people, but also talking to myself that I'm not a know-it-all.

00:35:27.320 I'm a, I'm a 49 year old man that, you know, um, loves the Lord, loves my wife, loves my kid,

00:35:32.880 loves to build businesses, love to lead people. But, um, you know, there's a lot of folks that

00:35:37.660 they speak with this extraordinary level of confidence about this very, very broad cloth of

00:35:43.840 life. They can cover everything there. You know, they're, they're health experts, they're business

00:35:49.180 experts, their professional development, their personal development. I mean, if you listen to

00:35:53.900 everything that they're just extraordinary at, um, at some point you kind of start hearing a charlatan,

00:35:59.700 you kind of start hearing, it's kind of an egomaniac. Right. And it's like, man, I mean,

00:36:03.960 I can tell you right now, brother, I'm like, you know, if you walk into a gym with me, I'm a lost

00:36:09.040 guy. I don't know if I'm, you know, I don't know if I'm supposed to curl a dumbbell or roll on it.

00:36:13.440 I mean, like I'm, I'm all over the place, right? There are some things that I've worked really hard at

00:36:18.600 for 25 years. And I'm passionate about that. I think I'm okay at, and I feel comfortable giving

00:36:23.160 people guidance and advice, but, um, I, I, social media, I'm a player, I'm active. Um, you know,

00:36:30.280 I'm on, I'm on all the platforms, um, even the new ones that just released. Um, and, and I really

00:36:35.740 enjoy them. Um, but it is, it is fatiguing, uh, for me to see people that, that have, you know,

00:36:43.520 they check all the boxes in every area and they want to be these, um, gurus to people. I think it's

00:36:49.720 discouraging and I think it's, uh, it's, it's false. I mean, it's just false. And, and some of

00:36:55.420 them even talk about humility and arrogance and, you know, that their, their own struggles in these

00:37:02.260 areas, which I'm appreciative of their, uh, self-awareness, but it doesn't seem that they

00:37:09.340 change their script. They continue down the same path of doing the same thing. Um, and intermittently,

00:37:16.620 they try to put on this, uh, little, you know, uh, uh, show around humility. Um, and it's just,

00:37:23.500 even that seems disingenuous. So I don't, there's not many things that I get on a soapbox and get

00:37:28.040 frustrated about, but that is one. Um, you know, and I, I gotta tell you, I feel deeply inadequate,

00:37:33.600 uh, in a lot of areas in life and, um, I'm okay with that. I mean, it doesn't, it's not,

00:37:39.660 it doesn't, it doesn't make me feel like I'm less because of it.

00:37:42.500 All right, man, I'm going to step away from the conversation with Vic very quickly. Uh,

00:37:47.100 just a quick ask for you today. I don't have anything to share with you other than this quick

00:37:50.840 ask. If you've ever found any value in the information and the conversations that we're

00:37:55.560 having here, would you please support us by doing three things? Number one, follow me on

00:38:00.480 Instagram. That's where I'm most active. You can do that at Ryan Mickler. Number two, I talked about

00:38:05.680 earlier subscribing on YouTube. And then number three, leaving us a five-star rating and review

00:38:10.880 wherever you listen to podcasts. That's it. It's not a whole lot, but believe it or not,

00:38:15.300 it goes a very long way in promoting the show and the message and getting it into the hands of more

00:38:19.920 men who need to hear what we're doing. Uh, just yesterday, in fact, I heard from a man who not

00:38:25.300 all that long ago wanted to take his own life, but after hearing all of the wisdom from our guests,

00:38:29.460 uh, he's now on a much better path with his family, his money, uh, his faith and spiritual journey

00:38:35.140 and his life in general. And that's the power of making sure just one more man hears this message.

00:38:41.220 And so if that's important to you, as it is to me, and I think it is to you as well,

00:38:45.480 please do those three things. Number one, Instagram at Ryan Mickler. Number two,

00:38:49.940 subscribe on YouTube at order of man, and then leave your five-star rating and review

00:38:54.260 wherever you listen to podcasts. That's it. That's all I've got for you. Let's get back to it with Vic.

00:38:59.800 So you use the word gurus a couple of times. And one thing you said earlier in our

00:39:03.560 conversations, you said, we're not working to be a guru, only a guide. So I'm really curious what

00:39:08.200 the difference is between guiding somebody and, and being a guru to them. Yeah. So I love the

00:39:17.440 question. So a guru, um, is philosophical. Um, there's someone that is definitely motivational,

00:39:28.700 um, usually inspiring. I think, I think we can paint in our head, what a guru looks like.

00:39:35.700 Let me tell you what I think a guide looks like. A guide is someone that can lay out a map

00:39:40.160 and say, let me help you navigate this map. Let me help you understand where you need to turn right,

00:39:46.800 where you need to turn left, where you need to duck down. And they're going to guide and they're

00:39:50.500 going to be able to give you practical knowledge that, that gets you through the path of what you're

00:39:56.420 trying to get through. And, you know, there's, um, a great book I read years ago and it talked

00:40:01.920 about the human operating system. And it talked about how, when you have knowledge and when you

00:40:08.080 have inspiration, you have transformation, but if you just have knowledge and you don't have

00:40:14.100 inspiration, you're not going to have much. If you just have inspiration and you don't have

00:40:18.640 knowledge, you're not going to have much. So, you know, when I think about my, my, the area that I

00:40:23.560 try to focus on, um, having some expertise in, which is entrepreneurialism and helping people

00:40:29.380 build businesses and to have success in business. Um, you know, it's a, it's a process of helping

00:40:36.980 them understand what are the different stages of business. Like it's a whole map. It's a whole

00:40:40.860 guide. I can like walk them through all those pieces and it's very practical and it's very

00:40:45.380 logical. Now, you know, my passion and my motivation, um, and really the fact of where I came from

00:40:51.980 and where I am, um, I hope is inspiring to them. But, but at the end of the day, if I

00:40:57.180 can't walk them through, uh, a map and, and really be a guide to them, uh, I think I'm being

00:41:03.420 a guru. And, um, I think it's a big problem. There's a lot of gurus that are, that are talking

00:41:09.160 today. And, uh, you know, years ago they were referred to as charlatans. And, uh, you know,

00:41:14.700 I think today we call them, we call them gurus, but they're there, you know, I don't think

00:41:18.780 that's an endearing term is to say that someone's a guru. And that's my opinion.

00:41:23.860 So what I'm hearing you say is that a guru might be able to motivate and inspire, but

00:41:29.200 they can't for the longer term, because you've talked a little bit about long-term

00:41:32.140 strategies. They can't for the longer term create, or at least illuminate a roadmap for

00:41:39.040 people to follow and then keep them accountable to staying on that path. Like it's, it's fleeting

00:41:43.600 is what I'm hearing you say a guru might be able to provide. So it's a quick Instagram

00:41:47.520 post versus mentorship. So let me give you a little bit more of a, uh, yes, you you're

00:41:52.900 a hundred percent on it. Let me give you a quick metaphor. So let's say that, that I'm

00:41:56.900 that you go out tomorrow afternoon and you decide you're going to take a golf lesson and

00:42:00.920 sorry for these golf analogies. I actually don't play much golf, but you're going to

00:42:04.200 go out and do die. All right. And so you're going to go take a golf lesson. You show up

00:42:08.320 the instructors out there, you're on the driving range and you're hitting balls, you're hitting

00:42:11.800 balls and you're hitting balls. And you really learn what the distance of the

00:42:16.840 clubs are. If you hit a pitching wedge, it's going to go a hundred yards. If you hit a

00:42:19.600 seven iron, it's going to go one 50. You're going through this process and, and you get

00:42:23.360 it. And after several lessons, you decide that you're going to go out and you're going

00:42:27.660 to go play around a golf. And so you go play around a golf, you walk up to, let's just say

00:42:32.900 you walk up to the ninth hole and it's a nice 200 yard shot. And if you've ever played

00:42:39.840 golf before, you know, there's a tree that's off to the far right. It's nowhere. It's not

00:42:44.480 anywhere near where you're going to hit the ball. Like the green is right in front

00:42:47.880 of you. The tree's over there. You see the tree, but the tree has nothing to do with

00:42:51.200 anything. Well, if you play golf, like I do, there's a hundred percent chance that you're

00:42:55.560 going to hit the ball at the tree and it's going to be under the tree, right? It should

00:42:59.720 have never been in play, right? It should have never been in play. Now you've hit this damn

00:43:03.300 ball. It's under the tree. And so you're standing under the tree. You're 50 yards out. You

00:43:08.700 think back to this golf lesson that you had, what club you're supposed to use at 50

00:43:12.740 yards. You're looking at the green, the tree. Remember the tree's right above you.

00:43:17.200 The hole is actually hidden. You can't really see it. You have all these complexities, all

00:43:21.420 these complexities, the wind's blowing. You get up, you go to hit your shot and you hit

00:43:27.760 the ball straight up into the tree and it comes straight down in front of you. I don't know

00:43:30.720 if you've ever done that. I've done it a lot of times. Okay. So now the ball's right back

00:43:34.300 where it was. And you're like, Oh my gosh, finally, you figure out how to get the ball out

00:43:37.700 of there. This hole that should have been a par four you've scored an 11 on, you know,

00:43:41.720 you're telling your buddy, you're telling your buddy to write down an eight, please write

00:43:44.660 down an eight. But you got an, you got an 11, right? And you go back, you, you, you finish

00:43:49.860 around, you go back to your golf instructor and you say, Hey, listen, I was out playing

00:43:55.140 yesterday. I was on number nine. You relive the whole story for him. Right. And, and you're

00:43:59.580 like, I, I, I was 50 yards out. I'd use the club. You told me to use, what do I need

00:44:04.560 to do? What do I need to do? And the golf instructor says, Hey, I've never played a

00:44:11.300 round of golf before. I'm a golf instructor. I teach people how to hit the ball. And so

00:44:17.280 where am I going with all of that? A guide has situational awareness. A guide has been

00:44:23.560 in the game. A guide has played. A guide has a lot of reputation, repetitions. A guide's

00:44:29.620 truly in the mix of things. And so that's where, you know, a guru, they're going to be

00:44:35.780 able to give you a lot of superficial advice, but they're not going to have that practical

00:44:39.320 level of tactical plane. And I hear a lot of people, um, that talk about business, talk

00:44:45.280 about building businesses, just the area that I'm in. And I always am interested, like, have

00:44:50.120 they done it? And I'm not, I'm again, that golf instructor might motivate you to go out and

00:44:55.940 play golf, but wouldn't it be better if they were a guide and you could come back and say,

00:45:00.880 Hey, let me explain what happened. And they said, Oh yeah, I understand that situation.

00:45:04.680 I've seen that play on a hundred times. Let me tell you is what you need to do next time

00:45:08.820 is you need to actually use your three iron and you just need to punch out and get on the edge of

00:45:13.260 the green. And then you're going to be able to chip up, put in and Hey, you're probably going to

00:45:17.320 get a six or a seven, but you're not going to get an 11. Yeah. It's an 11, man. So that,

00:45:22.840 that's a good point. That's the difference for me. I think, I think the other thing that that

00:45:28.760 framework does is it gives guys permission who have messed up in their lives to actually still

00:45:35.040 be motivational and inspirational lead for people. Cause a lot of the times what I've heard people

00:45:39.300 say, and even in my own follies in my own personal life with relationships and business,

00:45:43.000 is sometimes I begin to buy into or believe the idea that I'm no longer qualified to do this podcast

00:45:49.960 or no longer qualified to talk with men about what it means to be a man. But based on what you're

00:45:54.340 saying with being a guide, actually, if I'm able to successfully navigate those challenging

00:45:59.000 circumstances, whether, whether or not they were self-created or some external factor beyond my

00:46:04.580 control, if I'm able to navigate those things successfully, I'm probably more qualified to

00:46:10.720 continue to lead than had I been before never having to deal with that particular hardship other

00:46:16.440 people are dealing with. You know, it's a hundred percent true. And I think there's a lot of value

00:46:22.580 in people sharing stories. Um, and, and sharing stories is a different approach. Having conversations,

00:46:30.740 listen to people riff back and forth, like you and I are doing today, um, is different than proclaiming to

00:46:37.180 be, um, a, a fifth degree black belt, um, and, and an expert in an area. Um, I think the whole concept

00:46:45.020 of these open, transparent conversations that we have, you know, I do, I listen, I, you mentioned, I was

00:46:50.540 recently on, you know, Dave Ramsey show Dave and I, you know, we don't, we don't align perfectly on, um,

00:46:56.740 everything that, that, that he talks about. But one thing that I really love, um, that he and others do is when you

00:47:03.900 bring real practical people together and they have practical conversations and they're kind of

00:47:08.680 learning from each other. Um, you know, that's not a badge of a guru. Um, that's a connector and

00:47:14.740 that's someone that's really helping, helping iron sharpening iron. And that's, that's, I mean,

00:47:21.320 that's what we want to do, right? I mean, we want, I mean, that's, again, it's biblical, but it really

00:47:25.820 works. I mean, one of the early things I heard, um, in life I remember is, you know, hang around people

00:47:32.760 that are going to help you get better. And it didn't say, you know, the word I didn't hear hang

00:47:37.340 around super successful people. I didn't hear hang around wealthy people. I didn't hear, you know,

00:47:42.960 all of these things. It was literally hang around people that are going to help you be better. And,

00:47:46.960 and there are people that are in far different places in life, whether it be elevated positions

00:47:51.860 or people that are really in the struggle, um, that I can learn from and, and it, and it helps me get

00:47:57.940 better. So, um, I don't, to your point, Ryan, you know, just cause you don't have it all figured

00:48:04.180 out, you're of immense value. I mean, we, none of us have it figured out fine. And by the way,

00:48:09.520 by the way, back to our conversation about gurus, man, if you're following or you're paying attention

00:48:15.280 to someone who proclaims, they haven't all figured out, they're just not being honest, right?

00:48:21.960 They're just not being honest, right? I mean, you think about health, you think about kids,

00:48:25.940 you think about marriages, you think about professional stuff. You think about that,

00:48:29.480 man, nobody has it all figured out. You've got these douchebags standing on top of their jets

00:48:33.720 flexing going, Hey man, look at me. That, that, that, that I promise you that individual does

00:48:39.780 not have it figured out, right? There's a heart problem right there because that is not motivating.

00:48:45.420 Um, you know, that's not the before and after weight loss picture. That's, that's a, that's more

00:48:49.980 of a pompous picture. So, um, again, I get a little bit wound up about that. I just, you know,

00:48:55.420 I think, and look, you have to not to get off on a tangent, but you have to surround yourself with

00:49:01.120 people that are going to keep you grounded as well. Um, and for me, that's my wife and kids.

00:49:06.800 I mean, I can tell you right now, if I, you know, if I put a picture on, you know, a social media

00:49:11.620 platform of me and a plane or, you know, any of the toys that I may have, um, you know, within

00:49:17.880 minutes, I'm telling you, I get a phone call that like, dad, what the hell are you doing?

00:49:21.160 And, uh, you know, I mean, I'm like, so you've got to have some accountability people around you

00:49:26.660 that keep you, you know, thinking and talking straight. So, and I'm not, I fail it. I fail

00:49:31.380 at all of this stuff, Ryan. And, uh, but I can tell you to me, it all comes back to the heart.

00:49:37.920 Um, I want to pivot and shift gears. I wrote something down because I was inspired and intrigued

00:49:42.960 by a framework that you use. And I've always, I think sometimes it bothers people because I ask a

00:49:49.440 lot, you know, they might say, I like this particular person, or I like this movie, or I

00:49:52.960 like this business. And just because of the mind way my mind works, I'm like, well, what

00:49:57.620 do you like about that business? Or what do you like about that person? They're like, I

00:50:01.520 don't know. I like, you know, and they have a hard time at times articulating it. I'm like,

00:50:04.780 no, I really want to know, like, what is it about that person that you like relative to,

00:50:08.940 you know, this person I want to know. Cause if there's a formula, I want to figure it out

00:50:12.780 so I can tap into that formula. And I think, I think you have, I've always been curious

00:50:16.960 about why certain people succeed in business and why some people don't. And, and I think

00:50:22.140 it's easy to say, this is the easier to say, oh, they're doing the right things. Well, the

00:50:26.360 right things can be learned, right? We can all learn the right things. So why does somebody

00:50:30.200 who's doing all the quote unquote right things still not succeed to other people's levels?

00:50:35.700 And one of the things that I think you touched on here and you kind of highlight here is this

00:50:42.660 idea of instinct, intentionality and innovation. And, and I think that first eye, that instinct

00:50:50.020 is really where we tend to overlook. Is there one of those that's more important than another?

00:50:56.620 Because I mean, you can innovate, you can be intentional, but if you don't have instinct,

00:51:00.680 like if you're missing any one of those, you're just not going to have the same level of success

00:51:04.220 as somebody who it's all three, it seems like.

00:51:05.780 Yeah. Yeah. It's it's true. It's very true. Discernment, instinct, judgment. I remember,

00:51:16.900 man, I remember being a kid. I don't know, Ryan, if your parents were like this, but you

00:51:20.780 know, my, my parents told me a lot of different things and they told me, I heard a few times

00:51:25.720 that I would understand someday or someday you'll get it right now. It was usually when

00:51:29.660 I was getting disciplined for something like this isn't fair. And they'd say, well, someday

00:51:33.980 you're going to understand, by the way, a lot of those things, I still don't understand

00:51:36.980 FYI, don't tell my parents. I'm like, whatever. Um, but what you understand is they were just

00:51:43.340 telling that so that you'd get off their case and just accept the punishment. You understand

00:51:47.820 that.

00:51:49.120 Exactly. Exactly. Okay. So, you know, it's, it's discernment and judgment. Um, I kind of like,

00:51:57.540 I call it my gut a lot, right. But my gut's been built over doing what I do for 25 years.

00:52:03.980 And that's discernment, you know, discernment, judgment, instinct, gut, let's kind of put

00:52:08.360 those in a, in, in, in the same bucket. And, um, I do believe that it's most important and

00:52:13.680 that you really understand how to judge. Um, and, and I judge is a tough word to use, but

00:52:19.360 really understand how to have discernment around, um, different things. I'll give you an example.

00:52:26.120 So, um, I, I had a, uh, have a great friend, um, that was the chief people officer, uh, at

00:52:35.060 Chick-fil-A for, for many years. And, uh, one of the things Chick-fil-A does a fantastic job

00:52:40.160 at is hiring great people.

00:52:42.500 Definitely. No doubt.

00:52:43.820 They do a great job and they have the three C's that they hire. I think it's three, maybe

00:52:49.640 four, but it's character competency and I'm missing one. Um, but they have these three

00:52:56.240 C's that they hire from. And one of the things that, you know, they focus in on is they want

00:53:00.800 to hire people that have character. They don't want to hire characters. And it's, and if you

00:53:07.280 think about that, that's kind of deep, right? So for me, as I think back to being an entrepreneur,

00:53:13.580 starting my first business, just starting in the professional world, um, years ago, you know,

00:53:18.360 two decades ago, um, I was probably more intrigued by people that were characters and

00:53:23.320 were a lot of fun and, you know, I could go on and on and I probably didn't pay as much

00:53:27.680 attention to character. And so I think you form the, the, you'll understand someday our

00:53:33.660 repetitions, have those conversations, get to know people, study people. I mean, I, I pay attention

00:53:38.920 to every, um, personality and professional index testing platform that's out there. Cause I really

00:53:44.520 want to, I'm not, I'm not trying to be a psychologist, but I really want to understand

00:53:48.300 what motivates people, what drives people, what are different about people. So, um, I do think

00:53:53.960 instinct and discernment and having good judgment of, of people is key. And, you know, you've got to

00:54:03.640 hire for, for character, um, and, and over beat someone that is trying to be a character. Um, that's

00:54:10.100 an example. Um, you talked about intentionality and, and, you know, I, for me, it's, I can't tell

00:54:18.700 you anything that's happened in my life that doesn't feel like it's happened for the good,

00:54:23.760 um, that I've not been intentional about meaning, um, intentionality has been a driving force for me.

00:54:30.000 I mean, I can, I, I intentionally, um, you know, uh, courted my wife. I intentionally, I could go down

00:54:37.380 this long process of my life and look, I'm not saying that I haven't been very fortunate and

00:54:41.840 blessed. Um, and I have been, I mean, in every scenario, um, and, and even when I've been

00:54:47.200 unfortunate, sometimes it's proven to be fortunate, but being intentional is something that people,

00:54:56.680 I think in society today overlook, um, in comparison to, I want to be in the right place

00:55:03.320 at the right time with the right people, you know, that, that is important, but you can create

00:55:08.820 those situations. And, and that's where being intentional and being relentless about being

00:55:13.800 intentional is important. So for me, it's probably, you know, discernment and intentionality are kind

00:55:19.560 of two of the things that, that I try to continue to, uh, get better at every day.

00:55:24.780 Yeah. I want to hit on that. I, I actually just looked it up with Chick-fil-A cause I was curious

00:55:28.180 it's character competency. So you got those two, right? The third is chemistry.

00:55:31.380 Chemistry. That's right. Yep. That's right. So yeah, that's, uh, Dan Turner wrote a great book

00:55:37.760 called bet on talent. And, uh, she, she's a great friend and was nice enough to mention me in the

00:55:43.580 book, but, um, you know, it's such a, if you think about it, go to Chick-fil-A and they always have,

00:55:51.180 you know, the, the, just people that are professional and kind, and these are, and, and,

00:55:56.820 you know, what every conversation with someone at Chick-fil-A, what do they

00:56:01.360 say? They say, it's my pleasure, my pleasure. Yep. My pleasure. They always say it's my pleasure

00:56:07.000 and they say it, you know, not in a fast, aggressive, I'm done with you. I'm supposed

00:56:11.920 to say this. If you pay attention, there's, there's some compassion and they say it, you

00:56:16.600 know, authentically. So those little things are huge. I mean, I, I honestly, when we're hiring

00:56:22.560 entry-level people into some of our businesses, I'm like, man, let's find out what these kids

00:56:26.360 are doing that or leaving Chick-fil-A when they get done with school. Cause we, you know,

00:56:30.300 if they don't, if they don't go on to college, we'll take them.

00:56:33.580 Well, it also leads me to believe like, if we're going to look for that in other people,

00:56:36.900 I think it's probably a good idea that we evaluate whether or not we possess the same

00:56:41.040 skillset, you know, and that's something that, that we don't always, I am intrigued by,

00:56:46.340 by your comments on instinct because when I initially heard it, it, it, it almost leads you

00:56:52.160 to believe just a word itself that it's inherent that you either have it or you don't. And as you

00:56:56.960 were describing that, I don't think that's true. I'm thinking about, I've got into hunting over the

00:57:01.160 past eight years or so. And, um, I've, I've immersed myself into the world of hunting and I,

00:57:05.520 and I see these animals that I'm hunting and I see, and I watch them, you know, I might be

00:57:09.000 stalking one or, or watching it from afar. And they're so hard to kill. I mean, every animal I've

00:57:14.960 ever hunted is so hard to kill. And I'm like, why is that the case? Because they want to stay alive

00:57:18.900 just as much as I want to kill that animal and eat it. Uh, but there's, there's things that you

00:57:24.480 can't explain like an axis deer on Hawaii. You know, you'll be lined up for the perfect shot

00:57:29.540 and you know, that thing is going to turn left. You know, it with a hundred percent certainty

00:57:33.820 and about three yards before it's supposed to turn left into your shooting window,

00:57:37.440 it turns right with no apparent reason, no rhyme for do. Why does it do that?

00:57:43.640 Instinct. There's something off. There's something leading that, but then you think about it.

00:57:48.340 That's hundreds, thousands, maybe even tens or hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary

00:57:54.540 hardwiring that they're learning from their parents and learning from nature and learning

00:57:58.520 from seeing their friends get eaten. So I think it is something that, that we can develop. We can

00:58:03.940 develop that instinct. Like you said, over 25 years of being in this business or it, or in

00:58:08.600 entrepreneurship. So here's, what's cool about instinct is you can learn it over a long period of

00:58:14.560 time, or you can surround yourself, um, with people and, and educational awareness, which there's

00:58:23.140 just an abundance of that we have at our fingertips today to gain that instinct and to gain that

00:58:28.860 knowledge. Um, you know, maybe a little quicker than you would otherwise. And, and think about

00:58:34.000 hunting and the metaphor that you use there is, you know, if you, um, if you, if you're going out and

00:58:40.220 you're going to go hunt a deer, um, or an elk or whatever it may be, any hunt, and you go hunting

00:58:45.180 with Jim Shockey. Okay. Jim Shockey has been on a couple of hunts. You go out with him or Christian,

00:58:50.520 one of these guys, I mean, I get long list of guys that go out and hunt, but you go out and hunt with

00:58:55.200 those guys. They're like, Hey, let me explain to you what's going on here. Let me show you what's

00:58:59.080 going on here. You know, let me be a guide to you. And then you can really cut down on the time that it

00:59:05.700 takes to figure out why animals behave the way they do, um, and how things happen. So, um, you

00:59:12.440 know, there's gosh, I wish YouTube and podcast and audio books would have been around when I was,

00:59:20.680 you know, 20 something. Yeah. Oh man. Cause I mean, I was like, you know, I mean, you couldn't,

00:59:26.040 I didn't have the right cassette tape to listen to. Right. I mean, I'm listening to, you know,

00:59:30.440 quiet riot and I should have been, you know, or whomever the music was that I was listening to.

00:59:34.920 And, and, and versus putting in, you know, uh, in today's age, I could get any podcast in the

00:59:41.220 world and listen to these people that have authentic experience or audio books or YouTube.

00:59:45.700 So, um, I think when people, you really hit on something key and, and, and I hope that people

00:59:53.420 are hearing that is that instinct is something that can be learned. Um, you have to be open to being

01:00:00.780 learned good, having good judgment, having good discernment can be learned, but it is so imperative

01:00:07.260 that you're learning these things from the right sources. And that's where things get a little bit

01:00:13.880 noisy and complicated in our world is making sure you're surrounding yourself with the right sources

01:00:19.760 of knowledge and wisdom. And you're not just listening to the next talking head that has this,

01:00:26.060 you know, they can go into this great philosophical reason, something happens, um, or they have this

01:00:32.180 great acronym. Um, I'm not down on all of those, but while we have these resources available today

01:00:40.260 that help us expedite and advance, um, things like learning instincts and having discernment and having

01:00:46.700 judgment. Um, it's almost a bit of a dichotomy, not to use a big word, but it's almost a bit of a

01:00:52.020 dichotomy because now you have to kind of sort through where are the qualified, um, good sources

01:00:59.620 of information that you can learn from, but it's totally a learned skill. Look, I, I, I agree that

01:01:06.340 you talked about the axis deer, you know, and I think about, you know, those beautiful axis deer that

01:01:11.200 are on the nine that everybody goes and hunts that, you know, that's a small Island and those axis deer

01:01:16.360 have had a lot of guys pointing guns at them, right. Or bows or whatever they may be. And, and then they do

01:01:21.480 have instincts, but those instincts think about where those instincts come from. And, and they're

01:01:26.760 taught those things, um, you know, through their mom or their dad, no different, um, than, than

01:01:32.320 anything else, right. They don't have a great, uh, Rolodex or source of different areas to learn from.

01:01:38.440 They kind of have that legacy and limited information, not to try to compare humans to

01:01:43.700 axis deers, but man, think about all the resources we have available to be able to truly make sure

01:01:51.440 we're, we're getting the education that we need to make good decisions. And, and to your point,

01:01:57.180 Ryan, I know I'm being long winded, but I'm sorry, what's more important than making good decisions.

01:02:02.720 Agreed. I mean, that's what it comes down to, right? That's going to determine the quality

01:02:05.860 of your life. Did you make enough good decisions? And did they trump the bad ones that you made?

01:02:10.080 Cause we're always going to make some bad ones. I'm glad you brought up Jim Shockey. I just got a,

01:02:16.020 uh, just got his, his newest book, a pre-release of his newest book. He's got a new book coming out.

01:02:19.980 He's coming on the podcast in a couple of months. So I'm excited to have, have him on the podcast.

01:02:24.180 Jim's great. We, uh, one of the companies I have is, uh, Christensen arms and we make,

01:02:28.720 yeah, we make both action rifles and Jim is, uh, one of our, um, just partners and we do a lot

01:02:36.860 with him and he's a, you know, fantastic professional and, uh, we're really honored to

01:02:41.760 have him on the team. Well, and you know, it's even cool. I mean, to go back into what we were saying,

01:02:45.740 then you look at his daughter, which I think it's not Ava. I think it's, is it Ava or Eva?

01:02:49.280 I think, yeah, I think anyways, she's, she's big. She's big. She's, she's, she's big. She's going

01:02:56.820 to eclipse Jim. Yeah, she is. Well, by the way, that's, that should be the design, right? That's

01:03:02.360 how it's supposed to work. That's the point. That's the point. But what the point I'm making

01:03:05.220 there is that, you know, you have his daughter who's a phenomenal hunter. She's, uh, she's great

01:03:10.260 at what she does. And where did she, where did she learn that? Well, she had access to it through her

01:03:15.140 father and then she developed the skillset to be successful in her own right. You know, it's funny.

01:03:19.840 I'll tell you a real quick story. Um, my, my son, uh, Zach, he's, he's a 26 when he was 23 or so.

01:03:26.700 Um, I've been involved in the, the NASCAR business for a, for a long while in different areas of

01:03:31.640 sponsorship and stuff. And Zach went out to learn how to be a NASCAR driver and, uh, got his, got his

01:03:38.080 license and, and started racing and he did a good job and I was proud of him, but his, and, and one

01:03:44.200 of my, one of my, uh, acquaintances, friends in the NASCAR world, his dad was one of the biggest names

01:03:49.180 in NASCAR and he was a big name in NASCAR or still is today. And, uh, I just, you know, one day I looked

01:03:55.060 at Zach and I said, Hey, I said, listen, I said, I'm sorry, I'm not Dale Earnhardt. And, uh, cause you're

01:04:00.400 not Dale Earnhardt Jr. And so, you know, it, it, uh, there there's, I mean, if you've got that

01:04:07.420 legacy in your family, um, you know, that's a great place to learn. And you see it often because

01:04:12.420 people have extraordinary coaches. I mean, whether it be, you know, I, whether it be business,

01:04:17.740 whether it be in a sports, I mean, you know, there's some interesting stories there, by the

01:04:21.400 way, I mean, you know, apparently LeBron James, his son is a pretty good basketball player, right?

01:04:28.040 You hear a lot about it. Right. And you'd say, you know, yeah, he was, you know, he's, he's a tall

01:04:32.300 young man, but who's his coach been for, you know, the past 20 years of his life. Right.

01:04:38.560 Right. Right. How, how cool is that? So, you know, it, it, there's a lot of stories we can pay

01:04:44.520 attention to where, um, if you are surrounded by people that can guide you and coach you and help

01:04:50.880 you, you're going to have a competitive advantage. Well, and I, I think we need to say also that we

01:04:56.420 should never discount that somebody else has a great coach because our access to coaching and

01:05:01.100 information and resources is unparalleled in any other time in human history. And if you're saying,

01:05:07.040 well, I don't have the information and you're using that as an excuse not to excel, that's on you,

01:05:11.800 not the lack of information that you have available to you. Well, a hundred, a hundred percent. And,

01:05:17.440 you know, look, my dad is, uh, you know, uh, a blue collar, uh, worker and has been a tradesman,

01:05:24.860 um, you know, his whole life, just, you know, climbing ladders, doing, working hard his whole life.

01:05:29.400 And my mom sells flooring and, uh, you know, I could kind of go through that, that story. And

01:05:34.080 if I think about where I am today, and by the way, my parents are amazing, hardworking,

01:05:39.500 extraordinary people, and, and they have a great quality of life. Um, and I was interested in a

01:05:46.840 lot of the things that they were doing as I was young, but it was mostly what I was impacted and

01:05:50.700 influenced by was their work ethic. And, and I am, you know, part of the reason I am who I am today

01:05:56.180 is because I witnessed my parents' work ethic. Um, and, and, and I said, man, they wake up and go

01:06:01.740 to work every day and bust their butts. So, um, you know, it doesn't, it, it, I guess the, the, um,

01:06:08.720 the reality of what you're living in, uh, no matter what it is, you can learn from it good or bad,

01:06:14.520 right? Good or bad. And I think about my, my, my, my dad just told me all the time,

01:06:19.020 I want you to learn from my mistakes. I'll tell you what that motivated me to do.

01:06:22.700 That motivated me to learn from people's successes. I was like, man, I want to spend my

01:06:26.740 time deconstructing success. I'm going to make enough mistakes on my own. But, um, you know,

01:06:31.400 I think you bring up a good point that everyone's not, you know, LeBron James is not every basketball

01:06:38.540 player's dad. And, and, uh, you know, and, and Dale Earnhardt is not every NASCAR driver's dad.

01:06:45.280 Um, but we still have the ability to learn, um, from the circumstances that we're in.

01:06:51.560 And, and we have so much available at our fingertips. It's amazing.

01:06:55.800 Yeah. Well, Vic, I appreciate you, man. I know you're a busy man and I know that, uh,

01:06:59.880 you have a ton going on with all your businesses and family and everything else. I would like to

01:07:03.760 give you a minute to tell the guys where to connect with you, because I'm sure there's so

01:07:06.600 many who have listened to this and heard your insight and want to know more about what you're doing,

01:07:10.380 including, um, Epic community as well, which you briefly mentioned. So where can guys learn more

01:07:15.360 about what you're up to? Yeah, I don't, um, I, I would say the best place to find me is, uh, I'm on

01:07:21.380 all the social platforms at, at Vic Keller, um, just V I C K E L L E R. And then if you go to

01:07:27.520 vickeller.com, um, I, I just passionately have launched a community called Epic. And the whole

01:07:34.280 objective of Epic is to bring like-minded, um, driven people together. And rather you're a,

01:07:40.080 you know, a young person that, you know, wants to be successful as a professional working for a

01:07:45.520 corporation. You want to start a business, um, or you're someone that's been at it for two or three

01:07:50.300 decades and you want to continue to get sharper and better. We've created a community of like-minded

01:07:56.460 individuals and we do a ton of fun stuff, but you can learn about Epic at vickeller.com. And, uh,

01:08:02.120 man, I just really appreciate you giving me the privilege to, to visit with you and be on your

01:08:06.780 show here. Uh, I love what you stand for. I love, uh, this is one of those podcasts that I definitely

01:08:12.700 point my two sons towards. There's some that I'm like, man, I got to keep away from, but this is,

01:08:18.340 you know, those are the ones that listen to you though. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know,

01:08:22.760 every once in a while, right. It's like the music too. So, but no, I really, I'm really grateful for

01:08:28.500 your heart and your mission and, uh, man, just your courage and relentless, uh, commitment to

01:08:33.700 what you're doing. Thanks Vic. That means a lot coming from you. I appreciate that. All right.

01:08:37.540 We're going to sync everything up. So the guys know where to go. Thanks again for joining me

01:08:40.520 and imparting some of this wisdom. I know you have a lot more, so I'm going to direct the guys there.

01:08:44.080 Appreciate you brother. All right. Thank you, man. All right, gentlemen, there you go. Vic Keller.

01:08:49.940 I really enjoyed that conversation. Vic and I haven't been connected for that long, but I'm so

01:08:54.800 grateful and glad that we have connected because just going through his stuff and his information

01:08:59.520 and watching his videos and even listening to his other conversations as I prepared for this podcast

01:09:04.380 really gave me some insight into my professional and personal life and how to maximize both. So

01:09:10.760 I would highly encourage that you go check out Vic over on Instagram, check him out on his websites,

01:09:16.660 watch other interviews, watch other videos, because if you're trying to grow a business,

01:09:20.080 start it, scale it, sell it, whatever, and run your life, man, this guy is just a wealth of

01:09:26.100 knowledge. So please connect with him. And then as I mentioned earlier, the three things I asked from

01:09:31.140 you, follow us on Instagram as well at Ryan Mickler, subscribe to this podcast so you can listen

01:09:36.260 to my conversation and see it with Vic and other guests at order of man on YouTube. And then last is

01:09:42.040 leaving that five-star rating and review. One other thing, just take a screenshot right now, tag Vic,

01:09:46.360 tag myself, post it up on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, wherever you're doing your social media

01:09:50.700 stuff and let guys know where you are getting this high quality information. I guess that's an

01:09:57.180 assumption. I'm hoping it's high quality. All right, guys, that's all I've got for you. We will be back

01:10:01.660 tomorrow for our ask me anything until then go out there, take action and become the man you are meant

01:10:07.360 to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

01:10:12.100 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - July 18, 2023

VIC KELLER ｜ Instinct, Intentionality, and Innovation

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