Order of Man - Winning the War with Coronavirus ｜ DR. GREGORY POLAND

00:00:00.000 Obviously the world is entering unprecedented and uncharted territory. Every day we're hearing

00:00:05.280 new information about the coronavirus. Some of it of course is credible and some of it is not

00:00:09.940 so credible. It's times like these that we need to turn to the experts and look for answers and

00:00:14.660 solutions to the problems that we face. That's why I'm honored to be joined by Dr. Gregory Poland.

00:00:20.060 He's a professor of medicine at the Mayo Clinic and director of the Mayo Clinic's vaccine research

00:00:25.360 group. Today we talk about common misconceptions about the coronavirus, the best approach to

00:00:30.820 dealing with this threat, how vaccines are being developed, the eventuality of this disease,

00:00:36.160 how this virus differs from others, and ultimately how we'll win the war against coronavirus.

00:00:41.920 You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest. Embrace your fears and boldly chart your

00:00:46.840 own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time. Every time you are not easily

00:00:52.820 deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is

00:01:00.140 who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and done, you can call yourself

00:01:05.500 a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is Ryan Mickler and I am the host and the founder of

00:01:10.920 this podcast and the Order of Man movement. If you've been listening for any amount of time,

00:01:15.100 you know that I'm a little bit off here with the release of this interview because it's Thursday

00:01:19.600 and normally I release interviews on Tuesday, which I will continue to do, but had the opportunity to

00:01:25.620 interview my guest today. And because the information is so timely, I wanted to get this

00:01:30.300 out to you immediately. So you're getting an extra podcast this week. So congratulations.

00:01:35.520 Hopefully you enjoy this episode and the conversation that we have, which again is,

00:01:39.480 is timely and much needed information. I am going to get to that in just a minute, but I want to

00:01:44.920 mention our show sponsors really quick. And it sounds a little funny in times like these to be

00:01:49.680 talking about our show sponsors and business and everything else. But there's a reason that I want

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00:01:59.280 and everything I normally talk about. If you've been following them for any amount of time, or even

00:02:03.560 just over the past week, you'll see that they are in the process of developing. In fact, as of now,

00:02:09.160 they have developed, it's called the defender mask. And essentially it's kind of like a neck gaiter

00:02:15.140 that you pull up over your face and has a compartment, a sleeve where you can insert a mask or other

00:02:19.600 material. It's not the end all save all, but Pete Roberts over there has, is a visionary. Of course,

00:02:26.000 I've known that for a long time, but he took this idea and the call from the CDC to step up and has done

00:02:32.560 that with his organization. So they're available now. They're very, very inexpensive. He could have

00:02:37.820 marked them up and everything else. He did not do that because of his desire to serve the public and

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00:02:50.060 in these masks or their story, again, all of this is a hundred percent made in America. The first day 0.91

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00:03:05.320 I talked to him, uh, just a couple of nights ago and he said that they are, uh, selling one every

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00:03:17.460 that out, make sure you do that. And then I saw another video this morning, uh, and he'll be on

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00:03:26.060 those currently. So pretty incredible stuff. Um, go check it out if you're interested. And even if

00:03:31.140 you're not, I mean, just a really, really compelling story about the power of, uh, small business,

00:03:36.140 the power of community, the power of coming up with solutions. And, uh, it's, it's very inspiring

00:03:41.560 to, to see and to be a very, very small part of it. I'm, I'm just happy to be able to share

00:03:45.880 this stuff with you. So go check it out. Origin, main.com origin, main.com. All right, guys,

00:03:51.180 let's get into the conversation. Uh, again, I'm joined by Dr. Gregory Poland. He is the Mary 0.93

00:03:55.840 Lowell Leary professor of medicine at the Mayo clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. Uh, he's also

00:04:01.400 the director of the Mayo clinics vaccine research group. Uh, we're going to talk a little bit

00:04:05.240 about that in the podcast and editor in chief of the medicine journal vaccine. Uh, in addition,

00:04:10.440 if that's not enough, he's got a pretty impressive resume. Uh, he previously served as the president

00:04:15.660 of the health defense board and is the recipient of the secretary of defense. This is medal of

00:04:20.760 outstanding public service, uh, with more than 30 years of work in the field of viruses and vaccines

00:04:27.720 right now, him and his team are currently using, uh, testing and strategies and everything that he's

00:04:32.820 learned over almost three decades, uh, to develop a vaccine for COVID-19. I hope you enjoy the

00:04:38.340 conversation, Jen. Dr. Poland. Thanks for joining me on the podcast. My pleasure. Yeah. Looking forward

00:04:45.160 to the discussion. Uh, there is obviously a lot of information going on, uh, now regarding, uh,

00:04:51.220 coronavirus and a lot of, uh, rumors and some, uh, verified information, but I figured it'd be good

00:04:59.880 to, uh, just get to the heart of the matter and really discuss with an expert as opposed to all the

00:05:04.740 random thoughts that people have in times like these. I think it's also probably pretty, uh, pretty

00:05:11.540 typical that people start to fill in the blanks if they don't have the information. Is that right?

00:05:15.160 Yeah, exactly. And you see a lot of self-proclaimed experts and a lot of people who have a political

00:05:22.080 or financial agenda sort of try to jump in on it. Yeah. Yeah. It seems to me that's the case. And I

00:05:28.640 also think there's probably a lot of, uh, fear that comes into play as well. You know, I think as,

00:05:33.540 as human beings, if there's something that is uncertain or unknown, we're constantly trying to

00:05:38.960 put all these little pieces of the puzzle together, even though it's not based on accurate and factual

00:05:43.000 data, which I think is important in this context. Yep. Well said. Can you tell me a little bit about,

00:05:48.520 uh, what it is you do? And then that'll give us some context for the rest of the discussion.

00:05:53.860 Sure. So, uh, I'm a physician scientist at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.

00:05:58.880 I'm the director of the Mayo vaccine research group there. I'm the editor of our journal. I spent 20

00:06:05.420 years advising the department of defense on issues like this. So this is a virus we're familiar with,

00:06:11.660 RNA viruses. And this is one of them are something I've spent, uh, 35 years studying. So, uh, we have

00:06:19.880 a lot of information, but not as much as we'd like. Yeah, that's the thing. And it seems like

00:06:25.460 everywhere you turn, there seems to be conflicting data and information, which again, I think is

00:06:30.040 typical, especially when you have so many people talking about it. I think this is probably,

00:06:34.860 I was going to say the first time, but really where we have this mass exposure to information

00:06:41.440 via social media and everyone has a platform relative to some of these, uh, pandemics that

00:06:47.960 we've dealt with in the past. Yeah. I think it's kind of a unique, uh, period of time in that regard.

00:06:53.480 Yeah. So what is it that, uh, you generally, and we can get more into the specifics here,

00:06:58.540 but what is it that you are finding that is different? And I don't want to put words in

00:07:04.700 your mouth. I would use the word alarming, but maybe that's not a word you'd use. I'd like to

00:07:08.400 hear your perspective on this virus. Yeah. Um, well, you know, just a statistic that I pulled up,

00:07:14.540 uh, to tell your listeners about, it took 67 days for, to reach the first 100,000 cases in the world.

00:07:23.220 It took 11 days for the next 100,000. It took just four days for this last 100,000. So this is

00:07:32.360 a fast moving infection. I think, uh, I don't know exactly the age demographics for, for your

00:07:38.800 listening audience, but let's assume they're probably somewhere in the 18 to 60s plus year old,

00:07:44.780 uh, age group. There's this misperception that this is not a serious disease for younger people,

00:07:51.340 so-called iGens and millennials, et cetera. That is a misperception. It's true that 80% of the deaths

00:07:58.500 are occurring in people 65 and older, but in terms of hospitalization, 40, 40% of the first 2,500

00:08:09.440 hospitalizations due to COVID-19 in the U S were in people 20 to 54 years old. The other thing that

00:08:18.680 we're seeing is that people who have a lot of, uh, what we would call comorbid medical problems,

00:08:24.620 people who are obese, who are smokers, diabetics, who have heart disease, lung disease, which often

00:08:32.880 is a lifestyle choice. Not always, certainly not type one diabetes or anything like that.

00:08:38.840 And there can be genetic reasons for that. But, you know, we have become a nation of individuals

00:08:44.840 that are not very fit. Uh, when I was president of the defense health board, just recently,

00:08:50.380 there was a report issued called too fat to fight. And unbelievably, this was a real eye opener. 66%

00:08:58.660 of the younger generation in the U S that's draft age eligible. So that age range, two thirds of them,

00:09:07.060 there are either too obese to join the military, have substance abuse or mental health issues that

00:09:12.980 would prevent that. Now put a pandemic around that. And you begin to see serious disease deaths,

00:09:21.260 surge demand on the, on the health system. They can't be met. Yeah. I think that seems to be one

00:09:27.440 of the biggest problems is I, I see these graphs and these, this information about the steep curve

00:09:33.400 with the growing cases of, of COVID-19. And it seems to me that the whole social distancing,

00:09:39.860 well, the major, uh, response or reason we're practicing social distancing is to flatten out

00:09:45.800 that curve. Exactly right. Yeah. I just, uh, submitted a, an editorial for publication that

00:09:51.720 has been accepted that goes through the reasoning behind this. And let me, let me just take listeners

00:09:57.540 through that briefly and simply. Let's say you live in a hospital that has a 200 bed hospital.

00:10:04.100 You live in a community with a 200 bed hospital. They might have five to 10 ICU beds, maybe three

00:10:10.460 to five ventilators, limited numbers of specialists. If one or two people come in, say a week with COVID-19,

00:10:19.460 they can handle that. Sure. Start having 20 or 50 people come in a week. They can't handle that.

00:10:25.960 And the mortality rates skyrockets. So what, what younger people have to realize is they might not

00:10:32.860 end up, they might not end up in the ICU, probably aren't going to die from it, but they've got family

00:10:39.420 members, they've got neighbors, they've got school and work and church communities that are going to

00:10:45.080 suffer from that. And so, uh, I find it remarkable state governors are actually having to make laws

00:10:51.140 to enforce social distancing and to close down nightclubs and restaurants where this transmission

00:10:58.320 easily occurs. I think one other misperception to correct, unlike SARS, this particular form

00:11:06.260 can transmit before, you know, you have symptoms and that's different.

00:11:13.800 Right. I mean, that's, that's really dangerous because I think if I understand correctly,

00:11:17.360 it could take anywhere from 10 to 14 days to be symptomatic, which means that you've had almost

00:11:22.340 two weeks of interacting with other individuals. Yeah. Or, or even longer. I mean, there's some

00:11:27.360 case reports of even longer and, and that brings up Ryan, an important point that I think is really

00:11:32.820 hard for people to understand. What you see now reflects what was going on with the disease 14 to

00:11:42.000 30 days ago. So when we start to see cases come down, we don't want to make the mistake that's

00:11:49.440 happening right now in Japan where they saw cases come down and say, well, let the kids go back to

00:11:54.960 school. And I can guarantee you 14 to 30 days from now, we're going to see a big bolus of cases again.

00:12:03.740 Is this, do you feel like this, I was talking with my wife about this this evening. Is this something

00:12:08.540 that eventually everybody is going to contract the virus at some point and we'll just learn to

00:12:16.060 build up the immunities at some point, I imagine we'll have some sort of vaccine against this.

00:12:21.020 Is this inevitable? Well, we will have a vaccine. My lab is working on a vaccine. Other labs are too.

00:12:27.680 The, the modeling studies have shown a prediction that 40 to 70% of us may become infected with this.

00:12:36.240 Now, having said that there are four different Corona viruses that circulate

00:12:41.540 every winter. Uh, every winter and that cause about 30% of cold. So all of us have had one or

00:12:48.100 more Corona virus infections. Okay. This one's unique. This one is, is elegantly and efficiently

00:12:55.880 adapted. Uh, you may have seen some cartoons of the virus. It's got these little spike proteins or S

00:13:03.060 proteins. Those are like a, a key that's looking for a lock on the cell. And that receptor,

00:13:09.540 once it inserts into that receptor, it's like a lock opening and the virus can enter into the cell

00:13:16.020 and then it takes the cell over and uses your own cellular machinery to make virus and eventually kill

00:13:23.620 some people. Yeah. I mean, this is it. Well, is this any different than the way that your traditional 0.83

00:13:31.380 flu works? Uh, I know that we look at the death rates that tend to be slightly higher from what I've

00:13:37.260 seen. I imagine part of that is because there's probably tens, if not hundreds of thousands of

00:13:43.240 people who have COVID-19 that are, uh, not documented, uh, as tested positive for the virus

00:13:50.100 itself. Right. And those death rates will go down. Yeah. You're, you're actually making a very

00:13:54.360 important point, Ryan. Think of this as, as kind of a pyramid. Okay. We only know the top little peak

00:14:02.200 of the pyramid, people who got sick enough to come to the hospital or for whatever reason got tested

00:14:07.740 this big base of the pyramid. We have no idea. I mean, zero idea it's there. And it's probably

00:14:14.980 extensive given how bad the peak of this has been, but we don't know the full extent of it. Now what's

00:14:22.120 different about flu? Well, the case fatality rate with flu is about 10 fold or more lower than it is

00:14:29.720 with this. So, so a difference there. The other thing is flu strains circulate all the time. We get

00:14:35.820 flu vaccines. And so we do have some level of immunity usually. And where we see deaths from flu

00:14:43.380 are the very, very young and the older people, pregnant women too, by the way, which is a different

00:14:49.460 story and people who have chronic medical problems. So, uh, similar and yet different in other ways.

00:14:56.100 Right. That makes sense. Are there, uh, it seems to me that, that we're taking more of,

00:15:00.720 and I say, we, as in the U S taking more of a social distancing approach to flatten the curve.

00:15:06.320 Uh, if I understand correctly, you contrast that with the UK, for example, which is let's isolate

00:15:12.080 those who have compromised immune systems, the elderly. And then at some point, everybody's going

00:15:17.260 to contract this. We're going to build up the immunities and it's going to work itself out. Do you see

00:15:20.800 one being more advantageous than the other outside of the, uh, the medical system's ability to handle

00:15:26.540 the cases? Yeah. I think the UK started to approach it differently. I've, I think they've done a pivot

00:15:32.920 toward the direction that we're going. Now, I think part of that was based on the idea, well, um,

00:15:39.580 develop a herd immunity, so to speak, and don't destroy the economy. Right. This is, this is going to

00:15:46.000 hurt economically short term, but it's going to hurt economically. And I have framed the choice this

00:15:51.740 way in the U S I think we have two choices. One is shut everything down now that isn't essential

00:15:59.120 and use social distancing technology, the things you and I are doing right now that no generation

00:16:04.980 could do before. Right. Or find out that the medical system will be overwhelmed. Some of the

00:16:11.620 mathematical modeling studies suggest overwhelmed by eight fold over our actual capacity and then

00:16:19.220 suffer the deaths as a result of that. I think the wisest thing to do is shut it down now, except for

00:16:26.560 essential activities, particularly shield your most vulnerable, just like we would do in any other

00:16:34.000 situation. And then as these cases slow down and stop, wait 14 to 30 days, sound the all clear,

00:16:44.320 let the young people go back to work, be sure that we don't have a resurgence in cases, and then relax

00:16:51.160 the requirements for everybody, especially your older, more vulnerable people.

00:16:56.100 So let's say that we do take that route that you suggest. What is, what is the ultimate objective?

00:17:03.400 I just, I'm having a hard time understanding why in, let's say 90 days or 120 days or whatever it is

00:17:11.520 that everything will have subsided to some degree miraculously, or like how to, like, what is it that

00:17:17.940 we would be waiting for over that, over the course of, of self-quarantining ourselves?

00:17:23.000 Yeah. So the primary thing you're trying to do is drive death rate down by driving what's called

00:17:29.860 the reproductive number down. So every virus has a reproductive number. With this virus, it's about

00:17:37.520 2.4. What that means is if I got infected and I'm the average Joe, I'm going to infect 2.4 other people

00:17:45.660 and they're going to infect 2.4. And this thing just keeps growing. If I can drive that down to less

00:17:52.060 than one by social distancing, it dies out. So you're trying to prevent this surge demand. I mean,

00:17:59.140 it's like a tsunami right now in New York and Italy and, and California from talking with my

00:18:04.800 colleagues, they're overwhelmed. They're making choices like, well, if you're 80 or 75, we don't

00:18:11.260 have a ventilator for you. Something no doctor ever wants to say to a patient. And you're trying to

00:18:17.860 spread it out long enough that it either disappears or we start having antiviral antibody or vaccine

00:18:26.840 countermeasures to, to defeat this thing. Now I'm using some words that hopefully will mean something

00:18:33.920 to, to a lot of your listeners. To me, this is a war. Okay. What do you do in wartime? You take unusual

00:18:41.780 measures. And often if we were talking about an offensive action, we would do whatever it takes

00:18:48.460 to degrade the enemy's will to continue. Well, in a like way, now a virus doesn't have a brain,

00:18:54.980 of course, but in a like way, are we going to take the measures, even though they are difficult,

00:19:01.260 expensive, disruptive measures to protect our family, to protect our community in the best way

00:19:07.760 we know how absent currently having any other biologic countermeasure.

00:19:15.260 Yeah, that makes sense. Does, well, did this happen? Let's take, let's, let's go back a hundred

00:19:20.360 plus years, the Spanish flu, for example, did it happen very much the same way? Obviously there was 0.99

00:19:25.620 more social distancing just by the nature of not being able to transport and move as easily from

00:19:31.960 continent to continent and everything else. Is that how the Spanish flu died out? Like, do we have 1.00

00:19:36.620 a history of flus just dying out naturally? Yeah. Yeah, we do. And what happens is that they then

00:19:44.000 become seasonal. So there are vestiges of the 1918 influenza that circulate today, parts of that

00:19:52.600 viral genome. So that is one of the things that we wonder about. It's speculation with the seasonal

00:20:00.800 coronaviruses. We see them in the fall and winter, then they disappear in the summer, come back in the

00:20:06.620 fall and winter. Is that going to happen with this one? All we know is that in 2000, November of 2002,

00:20:13.400 when SARS started, it stopped on its own in July of 03. And we've never seen it again. Now this virus

00:20:20.700 is about 80 to 90% identical to what that SARS virus was in 2002, but has some critical differences.

00:20:29.840 Sure. Yeah. That's really interesting. Does the, the body then also develop its own antibodies to be

00:20:36.340 able to fight against these things? I guess I'm asking if once you contract COVID-19 and essentially

00:20:43.360 defeat that virus, has the body then learned how to fight effectively against it? That's a really

00:20:50.300 insightful question, actually. And the, the, the thinking on it is very mixed with the seasonal

00:20:57.000 coronaviruses. You have immunity for months to maybe a year or two, and then you can get reinfected.

00:21:05.280 SARS stopped on its own. MERS stopped, started, we have very few cases. So we don't know whether

00:21:12.540 somebody could be reinfected. There's one study of monkeys where they infected four monkeys. They

00:21:20.600 sacrificed one to see what the extent of disease was. The other three, they let recover for a month,

00:21:26.900 only one month, re-challenged them, exposed them to the virus, and they were protected.

00:21:32.660 So we know for a month you're good, but how much longer after that? We don't know.

00:21:38.120 Well, I imagine, I mean, it's encouraging nonetheless to know that even in that timeframe,

00:21:42.700 because you would imagine that it would go longer. It's just a question of how much longer that

00:21:46.520 immunity is good for. Exactly.

00:21:48.320 Yeah. So then what does your work consist of? And, and I know we can't get into the nitty gritty,

00:21:53.940 the very specifics of, of everything that you're doing, but generally, how do you begin to develop

00:22:00.020 vaccines and work towards creating solutions to these problems?

00:22:04.560 Well, we're, we're trying to advance the science. That's our goal. You know, I took an oath as a

00:22:09.620 physician and I intend to fulfill that oath. And that means I'm going to put myself in harm's way as a

00:22:15.680 lot of other healthcare workers, a lot of first responders, a lot of military members. We put

00:22:21.300 ourselves in harm's way because that's what we do. We signed up for that. So how do we start? We first

00:22:28.080 want to know that base of the pyramid that you pointed out. We're going to look in our community

00:22:32.860 with testing that will be developed to say what, how, how many people are being infected and at what

00:22:39.880 rate? The other thing of course is an interesting thing is once you know that somebody is infected

00:22:45.940 and presumably immune, you can deploy them. They can now be in the hospital on the front lines of this

00:22:52.480 war with immunity. Now, how long, how long is one of the things we want to find out? The other thing is

00:22:59.560 that this virus could very well act differently, depend on genetic variations in your own cell receptor

00:23:08.760 and your genetic background. That's one of the reasons perhaps that the Chinese had such a higher 1.00

00:23:15.900 case fatality rate than we've experienced here in the U.S. There are other factors too, but that's one

00:23:22.320 idea. So we want to actually sequence through the receptor on human cells to see what kind of variations

00:23:31.100 are there and are they associated with different levels of severity of illness and of death. The other

00:23:37.840 thing that we're doing is we developed some technology where we can actually see what your

00:23:45.220 human immune cells see, little fractions and pieces of the virus. And we're going to use that in a patented

00:23:53.580 technology we developed to say, could we develop a vaccine that everybody could take? Not a live

00:24:00.240 attenuated vaccine that pregnant women and kids and immunocompromised people can't take,

00:24:06.040 but a vaccine that could be delivered to everybody. So we're just starting to identify the funding for

00:24:12.160 that and hopefully it'll be a go soon. Is that something that vaccine you're talking about where

00:24:17.860 it'll apply broadly, is that available in other vaccines? Is that something that has been done before?

00:24:24.380 Um, it has just, if you're, if you've read it all about some of the universal influenza vaccines,

00:24:30.540 some of the early studies have used that kind of idea and it worked. So we're hopeful. We're hopeful.

00:24:38.320 Yeah. I imagine you sit in an interesting position because you're talking about being hopeful and

00:24:43.000 optimistic and yet you're a scientist, which means that you look at the data and you try to be as

00:24:47.580 objective as you possibly can when it comes to measuring these things. It's a very interesting

00:24:51.740 position I imagine. Well, and it's, it's a tough one because, uh, I, in the last nine weeks, I don't

00:24:57.440 know, I've done probably 400 national and international interviews with every media outlet that you, you can

00:25:04.200 imagine. Um, by the way, we periodically do live Q and A's on an Instagram that my son actually helped

00:25:11.740 set up that Dr. Greg Poland. Um, but the people know where to go. All right. And, and the thing that we

00:25:18.380 sometimes have trouble with is you'll hear people say, well, such and such a drug combination really

00:25:24.580 looks like it's going to work. It's going to be a miracle cure. All I can say is the medical literature

00:25:30.000 is littered with tens of thousands of papers where when we actually study something thoroughly,

00:25:37.860 it turns out not to help end or causes harm. So when you hear about, for example, you're hearing

00:25:44.320 about hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin being a cure for this. Well, maybe they had some patients

00:25:52.260 that seem to do better when they got that combination. Now what we have to do is study

00:25:58.200 it in a clinical trial for exactly the reason you're mentioning. How do you be measured, thoughtful,

00:26:04.660 peer review, evidence-based so you know you're helping and not harming?

00:26:09.320 Yeah. I, I, uh, I listened to an interview earlier today with the, uh, uh, say it again

00:26:15.560 one more time for me. The hydro hydroxychloroquine. Okay. So the hydroxychloroquine call it, call

00:26:21.080 it Plaquenil. That's its trade name. Okay. That's easier for me. Um, yeah, uh, an actor that had

00:26:28.960 contracted COVID-19 has suggested that he feels better. And I thought to myself as listening,

00:26:33.500 well, it's probably been three or four days and it might just be that your body is doing what it

00:26:38.680 needs to be doing. Exactly. You've got it, man. Yeah. It's hard because we do want to be hopeful

00:26:44.500 and we do want to be optimistic. And I think that's actually a good way to look at it because

00:26:48.600 could you imagine the world, not just with this pandemic, just the world and everything that we

00:26:53.800 have to deal with in general, if we were always so pessimistic and thought the world was going to

00:26:58.040 end every single day of our lives, we wouldn't be able to function. Yeah. You know, and just to,

00:27:02.720 just to kind of play off what I understand order of man to be order of men, that's not what a man does.

00:27:09.300 Yeah. A man, a man realistically assesses the situation, delivers hope and then actions that

00:27:19.080 hope by, by how he performs, how he speaks and what he does and doesn't do in some cases.

00:27:27.320 Yeah. Well said. Well said. I really, I really liked that. Yeah. Well, on that note, do you think that,

00:27:33.460 uh, people generally, I mean, I guess we see both sides of the spectrum, but are people,

00:27:38.580 overreacting, you know, I've seen some videos where, and this was roughly a month ago that you

00:27:43.740 had done that I was looking at and how things can change in a period of four weeks. Oh yeah.

00:27:48.960 But do you think that generally we are responding to it responsibly? Are we underreacting? Are we

00:27:55.400 overreacting? Where do we sit on the spectrum? I think that we were slow to react given what we saw

00:28:03.940 happening in China and then started seeing happening in Italy. I think we had a mindset that that's over

00:28:12.720 there and it isn't going to happen here. That was wrong. The second thing is these things happen just

00:28:19.240 beyond human attention spans. We had SARS in 2002. We had vaccine candidates that never got past the

00:28:27.440 starting line. So we could have and should have had a vaccine. We should have been prepared. This is the

00:28:34.100 third novel coronavirus. There will be a fourth and a fifth. No doubt. So we've got, we've got no excuses

00:28:40.200 after this one. I think, I think those are big issues in, in how we think about that and how we

00:28:46.560 prepare and react for the future. Do you think that the public just loses interest and therefore these

00:28:53.260 things don't continue to get funded? Like how does this type of thing die out? It seems to me that we're

00:28:57.760 on a pretty, well, I was going to say predictable cycle. I don't think it's predictable, but we are

00:29:02.940 definitely on a cycle when it comes to these introductions. Yeah. Well, you know, in a sense, what I

00:29:08.500 would call it is irregularly predictable. We know they're going to happen. And in general, you have it

00:29:16.480 least one or two pandemics every century, as it turns out. So they will happen. Science is not a

00:29:23.500 spigot that you can turn off and on. Scientists get absorbed in new things. If they don't have any

00:29:29.440 funding, they leave that field and do something else in science. So we have to, I think really as a

00:29:35.840 nation, but also as a globe, say, here's a fund where we're going to continue, even though it might

00:29:42.300 disappear. We know it's going to come back. Zika was a good example of that. There's no Zika funding

00:29:47.400 right now. We're going to see Zika again. The mosquitoes and the virus they carry didn't just

00:29:52.240 go away. Yeah. So we'll have that again. And getting back to your earlier question, are some

00:29:59.100 people panicking and others underreacting? Yes. In both cases, we have some people doing some really

00:30:06.500 dangerous things. You wouldn't believe, Ryan, the kind of things that people send me. Let's put

00:30:12.340 bleach in cotton plugs and put them in our nose. Okay, that'll destroy your nose or gargle with dilute 0.61

00:30:20.520 bleach or swallow it. Your esophagus will never be the same again. Or doing that to their pets in an

00:30:28.940 attempt to disinfect their pet. Well, that's wrong from the very beginning. There is no evidence that

00:30:35.500 we're giving our dogs or our cats these viruses, or they're giving them to us. Even though the CDC

00:30:41.660 has issued some very, very precautionary things about, well, maybe when you're really sick, you

00:30:47.680 know, don't let your dog lick your face and share food with your dog or anything. I mean, I think

00:30:52.980 that's generally just good practice anyways. That's right. I mean, I love my dog, but I don't trust her to

00:30:59.840 guard my hamburger. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then other people are under responding. And, you know,

00:31:06.700 I don't want to unfairly cast blame. But again, in some of the younger aged people who said, well,

00:31:13.260 I'm invincible. I mean, that's why we send our young people to war, right? To begin with, we don't we

00:31:19.000 don't send guys my age because we know what can happen. You know better. And, you know, they're in the

00:31:24.720 bars and the nightclubs and the restaurants and the sporting events and things like that. And I

00:31:29.380 understand that at one level, but they're taking risk and they're taking risk that's unnecessary.

00:31:34.820 There's a difference between a calculated risk and an unnecessary risk.

00:31:40.420 Yeah, that's a great point. I think you've got to weigh the pros and cons. And to me,

00:31:43.640 going out and partying with your friends doesn't seem to hold a lot of benefit for me. You know,

00:31:48.620 I'm speaking for me. It doesn't seem to have a lot of benefit over the potential risk that I'm

00:31:52.440 exposing not only myself, but my family with young kids here. And yeah, and especially because

00:31:58.720 nobody's saying, you know, life won't go back to what we call normal. We're saying suspend. That's

00:32:05.940 all it's short term. And you know, Ryan, one of the things I was reflecting on, when you look back

00:32:11.560 at all of human history prior to our current generation, now, I'm going to put the great heroes

00:32:18.520 that are in their eighties and nineties and we're in world war two, you know, to the side and

00:32:23.900 certainly our military who have faced dangers while the rest of America is shopping at the mall.

00:32:28.920 I've got, my father was a career Marine. My brother, a career Marine. My son is in the military

00:32:34.720 as a, as a pilot. I worked for DOD for 20 years. Um, I know, I know the calculated risks and sometimes

00:32:42.280 the unknown risks that they take. We don't have to take those risks. All we're doing is saying,

00:32:48.380 look, life's going to be a little different in every age prior to this. People faced famine,

00:32:53.920 pandemics, wars, world wars. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about

00:32:59.460 temporary suspension for maybe a matter of months and then back to normal.

00:33:06.280 Right.

00:33:06.400 Men, let me just hit the pause button on that, uh, on that conversation really quick. We're

00:33:11.560 going to shift gears and I'm going to talk to you about something else and something that I think

00:33:14.580 is very important, uh, in the wake of the Corona virus fallout. Um, it's likely that you've probably

00:33:19.540 been isolated to some degree. And if that's the case, and even if it's not, uh, it's crucial that

00:33:24.600 you develop and maintain, uh, relationships with other men who are motivated and ambitious,

00:33:30.740 just like you are. And that's where the iron council comes in. We've created over the past

00:33:35.600 four years now, uh, a network of over 500 men, all with their own unique perspectives and

00:33:41.300 objectives. And they're all willing and able to accomplish big things in their lives and then

00:33:45.000 help you do the same thing. Uh, and, and although all of the men have differing goals and ideas and

00:33:50.380 things they want to accomplish, we have banded together in a common goal to become the most

00:33:54.660 effective and capable men that we can be, which during these trying times is, is crucial.

00:34:00.020 Obviously, uh, we have a time and battle tested system for helping you accomplish big things on

00:34:05.980 the home and the personal and the business front. And all you have to do is tap into the framework

00:34:10.120 and this network that we have, and then do the work required that we outline and, and, uh, help you

00:34:15.960 with. So if you're interested in learning more than head to order a man.com slash iron council,

00:34:20.720 again, that's order a man.com slash iron council, continue to listen to this podcast, but immediately

00:34:25.740 when this podcast is over, go check it out, order a man.com slash iron council. But for now,

00:34:30.240 we'll get back to my conversation with Dr. Poland. Yeah. I think it's challenging for a lot of people

00:34:36.520 because they haven't experienced real hardship. You know, I've seen a lot of these, uh, we'll call

00:34:42.060 them social issues that, uh, tend to arise. And, and a lot of them to me seem like we're just making

00:34:46.820 things up to be worried about. Uh, but a lot of these types of issues have gone away because we

00:34:51.400 actually have something real to worry about now. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. You know,

00:34:55.400 too many people just, just haven't been exposed to hardship. So when they can't get their favorite

00:35:02.220 mocha frappuccino, you know, it's the end of the world when in all reality, it's nothing,

00:35:07.160 it's insignificant, it's meaningless. I mean, you know, I, just to put a contrast on it,

00:35:13.200 it is unbelievable to me that we've got a generation that if they hear a viewpoint different

00:35:21.880 than theirs in college, they need safe spaces and micro trigger warnings. Okay. At that same age,

00:35:30.020 my dad got the bronze star for his first tour in Vietnam. My wife's father got yanked out of his

00:35:36.440 senior year in college and won the silver star for rushing a Nazi pillbox and saving a lot of lives.

00:35:42.760 This is a very different thing that's happening to us nowhere near that. And it's temporary. So let's,

00:35:50.580 let's get a grip, right? Right. Definitely. Well, and you know, let's talk about the other side too,

00:35:55.800 because in all fairness, you know, I fortunately, and it sounds like, well, you're on more of the

00:36:00.680 front lines than, than I am maybe in close, but for me, my life hasn't been all that impacted. You

00:36:05.580 know, I'm here with my family. I live at home or excuse me, I work at home. Obviously I live at home

00:36:09.920 as well. Yeah. Uh, I, I can do my work remotely like we're doing now, but you know, there's people out

00:36:15.700 there who don't have work and don't have incomes and they can't have their kids going to daycare.

00:36:22.520 So, you know, there are some real hardships. Uh, and I feel for a lot of these people because

00:36:28.020 either they didn't plan or they didn't have the means to plan ahead financially and have their

00:36:34.860 food storage and things like that in place prior to something like this happening. It's, uh, it's pretty

00:36:39.820 tragic for a lot of people. You're, you're, you're, you're very right. And you know, again,

00:36:43.620 I think a man shares out of his plenty with his neighbor. And I think a government, the reason for

00:36:50.600 a government, the only reason I can determine is for the government to do for the people what they

00:36:56.360 can no longer or can't do for themselves. And that's where we need to focus efforts.

00:37:03.280 Let's go back to the conversation about genetics, because you said you and your team are looking at

00:37:09.060 ways genetics affects the, uh, the efficiency of this virus or the inefficiency. Uh, is there things

00:37:16.560 that we can do on a personal level to not necessarily change the genetics, but change our biology,

00:37:23.620 change our physiology to help us combat the virus that we're dealing with right now?

00:37:29.500 Ryan, I got to say, I'm impressed with the amount of biology, you know,

00:37:33.420 I don't, I know, I know a few words to make it sound like I know something.

00:37:37.180 Well, you're, you're, you're impressing me. Um, you're exactly, you're exactly right. We're,

00:37:43.340 we're not changing genetics, but some of the things that our mothers and grandmothers taught us

00:37:48.240 actually turn out to be true. We can measure these in the human body. We can measure these in the test

00:37:53.920 tube. When you get a proper amount of sleep, when you eat right, and that's, that's another whole

00:37:59.780 topic about people eating right. When you're exercising and you're fit, you know, I'm, I'm looking at you

00:38:05.780 and you can see me. We're fit individuals. We have a responsibility to take care of our bodies.

00:38:12.100 How are you going to take care of your family if you can't take care of you? How are you going to,

00:38:17.200 uh, mentor the next generation if, if you don't do that? Those things actually work.

00:38:22.840 The people who do best are not smokers. They're not obese. They've taken care of their bodies.

00:38:30.240 Their cardiovascular and respiratory systems are fit. They're outside. There's no reason you can't

00:38:37.020 be outside. Nobody's saying that. You just keep social distancing in mind. You can still run. You

00:38:42.760 can still walk. You can still bike. In fact, it was kind of interesting. Um, right now I'm on a small

00:38:48.580 island off the coast of Florida and it was 10 30 at night. I just finished the last interview and I

00:38:54.540 decided, come on, we're going to go do a little PT here. So we go outside and I am amazed the normally

00:39:01.600 absolutely quiet, busy streets have kids six to 10 feet and other people, uh, 10 feet apart riding

00:39:10.140 their bikes at night. Good for them. Isn't that funny? You see more, it seems to me, you see more

00:39:18.100 in a way, social interaction, interaction with wildlife and nature during a quarantine than you

00:39:23.920 ever did. Yeah. We were close in proximity, but we weren't socializing. We're stuck on the subway

00:39:29.200 and we're, we're hoarded in these little planes. And it's like, there's no social dynamic of it

00:39:34.680 whatsoever. You know, my dynamic what's happening. It is my wife and I were at the grocery store two

00:39:41.300 nights ago. And normally, you know, maybe somebody would, you know, nod at you or something like

00:39:47.040 that, but usually not engage in conversation. What we found is we ended up spending longer in

00:39:52.160 there than we anticipated because everybody wanted to talk. Yes. You know, they maintain their

00:39:57.120 distance, which was fine, but, and, uh, you know, I'm a type eight extrovert. I want to talk too.

00:40:03.580 Yeah, it is. Uh, well, definitely being social. I think this is probably the hardest thing for a lot

00:40:08.360 of people is we're social creatures, right? We want to be, we want to be with other people. We want to

00:40:13.880 share stories. We want to experience lives of other people. It's, that's a challenging thing for a lot

00:40:19.860 of people. You know, you, you, you raise a good point with that because we talked about physical

00:40:24.220 health, but there's also mental health and if I can say spiritual health that are, that are important

00:40:30.640 dimensions of how we were created and how we're meant to live. So, you know, as men, if we're going

00:40:36.800 to lead our families, it's not just the physical, it's not just providing, you know, housing and,

00:40:42.440 and shelter and, and heat and food. It's, it's more than that. Those are the basics.

00:40:47.920 We've got to figure out winsome ways that are helpful and not harmful for our kids to still

00:40:54.240 have social interaction, even if it's using technology. I was talking to my daughter and

00:41:00.160 she was saying, you know what people are doing now? They're, they're going to Facebook hangouts

00:41:04.440 and they're watching movies together and texting each other and, you know, or playing remote

00:41:08.780 video games or something like that. They're things that can be done. Pay attention to the

00:41:14.160 effects of, you know, to some degree, social isolation and, and pick up on that, figure out

00:41:20.320 how you deal with that. The same with the spiritual, you know, if we're going to be in home quarantine

00:41:25.140 and we're going to be teleworking, this is not a time off. This, this is a time to, to, to pick

00:41:32.920 this up and with your permission, can I, can I read a verse? Absolutely. So this is a verse

00:41:38.160 that caught my eye last night. I try to read through the Bible every year. This is from

00:41:43.000 Joshua and it comes from the first chapter of Joshua verse nine. And, and I, and I, and

00:41:49.800 I'd like everybody to hear these words and I'm going to, I'm going to read them the way

00:41:53.440 I think they were said, have I not commanded you be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened

00:42:04.420 and do not be dismayed for the Lord, your God is with you wherever you go. And that's

00:42:10.860 a promise. That's a promise. I see all the way through the pages of, of scripture. And

00:42:15.900 I believe that promise. And I believe that God will keep that promise. And I think that

00:42:21.020 that's something that we're to teach our children and give them the same hope that

00:42:25.600 we carry. Yeah. I, I do appreciate you sharing that. I think that hope is very, very important.

00:42:33.060 I think it's very important to maintain a long-term, even eternal perspective on the things that

00:42:39.100 we're dealing with. Yeah. Uh, my, my background is, is financial planning and it's interesting

00:42:44.280 because I got into the financial planning field in 2008, 2009, about the worst time prior to

00:42:50.520 the last several months. Good, good call, Ryan. Yeah, exactly. Uh, and it was interesting because

00:42:57.400 I had people, you know, show me their, their portfolios and you'd see if you look at it in

00:43:02.620 a 30 day or a 60 day period. And even now people are looking at it and thinking, you know, the world's

00:43:07.080 going to end and everything's going to fall apart and look at this. Just pan back, just pan back a

00:43:12.440 little bit, pan back a year, five years, 10 years. And you won't even see, you won't even recognize

00:43:18.140 that if you can maintain some level of faith and hope and optimism and also doing the work

00:43:25.340 that you should be doing to protect yourself and your loved ones and your community and everything

00:43:29.540 else that we do as men. Yeah, absolutely. I think I heard it expressed this way and it resonated with

00:43:36.180 me. Um, so many people put their hope in wealth or their big house or their fancy car, you know,

00:43:43.740 their bank account, whatever it would be. And here comes the smallest thing known, a virus and it is

00:43:51.840 shaking the globe. So what's your hope really going to be in? Yeah, that's, that's a good point. I mean,

00:43:58.640 these are microscopic, right? And, uh, it's 0.1 micron in size. Yeah. Pretty amazing. So how did you pick

00:44:08.740 this field of work? I mean, you could have gone a lot of different directions. What drew you to this?

00:44:13.960 My, uh, my son, Matthew is a professional soccer player and coach in, uh, in Europe. And he said a

00:44:20.500 friend of his Facebooked him and said, when your dad's on the news, it's never good news. Yes. Yes.

00:44:27.760 Yeah. People probably don't like to talk with you. I usually don't tell them what I, yeah, I usually

00:44:35.600 don't tell people what I do because they don't want to shake my hand. Yeah. But you know, I, I went

00:44:41.160 into medicine and this isn't, this is an interesting story. And I think it relates to one of the things

00:44:47.880 I think will happen as a result of this pandemic in young people's lives is they'll be stimulated to

00:44:54.060 go in science. So when I was four years old, I got my finger caught in a door and my sister cut my

00:45:00.920 finger off. And my mom tells me that I didn't cry. I was fascinated by what I saw. I went to the

00:45:09.920 hospital, four year old kid. We'd normally anesthetize a kid like that because they wouldn't, 0.96

00:45:14.320 they'd be screaming. They wouldn't hold still. They didn't have to do that with me. And the,

00:45:18.720 the doctor, a young Navy Lieutenant, my father was, uh, was in the Marine Corps and stationed in

00:45:24.120 Canoei Bay and in Hawaii. He said, he said he was amazed that this kid just wanted to ask questions.

00:45:31.720 So I, I B, I became a doctor as a result of that. And then when I was in my training,

00:45:37.780 I began to notice how many people were getting admitted to the hospital because of complications

00:45:43.640 of flu. And then I saw an older man who had slipped on the porch. This was in Minneapolis,

00:45:49.060 skinned his elbow and very near died of tetanus. And I began to realize just the toll that we accept

00:45:57.420 from infectious diseases. And I thought, this is my war. This is the one I felt called to this,

00:46:03.880 um, as, as well as spiritually. I'm also a student right now in seminary.

00:46:09.200 Is that right?

00:46:10.180 Yeah. And, uh, I thought this is, this is the direction that I'm going to go. And I've not wavered

00:46:16.180 from it. You're fortunate to be able to find that at such a, uh, such a young age. That's

00:46:21.680 yeah. And then to listen to it, because I imagine there's been all sorts of roadblocks and hurdles

00:46:26.540 and obstacles that would otherwise keep you from pursuing this path. I mean, I had no direction

00:46:33.000 on how to get into college, how to get into medical school. I had no money. Um, I just figured

00:46:38.640 it out as I went and, uh, I recognize now that that was a gift from God. That wasn't of my doing.

00:46:46.200 You used an interesting term. You said that we've just accepted the, and I can't remember

00:46:50.860 exactly what you said, but accepted the fallout of certain people dying, right? A certain percentage.

00:46:54.720 It is interesting because when we talk about the death rate, for example, of this, of this virus,

00:46:59.800 we talk about the flu being 0.1 or 0.2, whatever it is. And we talk about this being anywhere from

00:47:04.920 one to 5%. Well, those numbers aren't just numbers. Those are dads and wives and brothers

00:47:12.980 and grandfathers and business owners and leaders in the community. And so I think the fact that you're,

00:47:19.360 you're seeing any fatality as not acceptable is a, is a good indicator that that's a path that you

00:47:27.420 pursued wisely. Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, on the one hand, we were all born with an expiration date.

00:47:33.720 We just don't know what it is. And on the other hand, you don't want to see any brother or sister

00:47:40.740 or child or parent or grandparent or neighbor fall from something we know how to prevent.

00:47:48.660 And that, that's what it is for me. What really gets me is what I kind of call the needless death,

00:47:55.240 something where we could have intervened and where we're now saying we could have, we should have.

00:48:00.500 What, uh, as we think about how to deal with this from a cultural and a societal level to medicine

00:48:08.700 and how we deal with these threats in the future, what is it that we're going to need to be aware of?

00:48:14.020 I mean, if we're at some point we will, I have full faith that we will neutralize this threat.

00:48:19.780 Absolutely. But absolutely.

00:48:21.600 That's not to say that we won't experience something that's far worse than we're dealing

00:48:26.680 with right now. So what do we need to be on the lookout for, uh, moving forward?

00:48:31.240 So one of the things we really need globally is we have to fund public health, which has really been

00:48:38.100 kind of shaved back in many countries over the last decades. And the reason for that is surveillance.

00:48:44.460 So what's coming, we need to know what's happening in the remotest part of the world, because nowadays,

00:48:52.140 as you pointed out at the top of the hour, nowadays, anything like that is 12 to 36 hours away from us.

00:49:00.020 So we are much more connected. 1.5 billion people travel internationally every year. And we need,

00:49:07.860 we need to realize that that means that there are advantages, but also risks to that. We need to have

00:49:13.700 global funds where we have the, the monetary resources to attack these things, not just the rich nations,

00:49:20.420 but everybody needs to participate in this. We need countries to take responsibility. China must regulate

00:49:29.440 these wet markets. They are, I've been over there. I've gone into those markets myself, taken pictures

00:49:35.960 and looked at them. They are dangerous. I never saw any refrigeration, any ice, any hand washing.

00:49:42.460 The animals are slaughtered right there on the table or on the, on the ground, and they will sit

00:49:48.340 there until somebody buys them. And you've got animals of every species you can imagine from

00:49:54.860 around the world, not just in China, species that would normally never interact, jammed in next to 0.99

00:50:01.020 each other, trading all of their viruses, all of their bacteria. With avian influenza, I went over there,

00:50:08.760 you see chickens jammed in cages elevated about five feet high. The reason they poop, which is a rich

00:50:16.440 source of nitrogen. The pigs eat that, the pigs poop, and it runs into the aqua farms so that the fish have

00:50:23.660 that nitrogen. Just, it's a Petri dish for how these kinds of things happen. And then I think we're just

00:50:30.380 going to have to take seriously that there are risks and that we need to be prepared and we need to be

00:50:36.660 prepared in big ways. You know, almost every business I know, and, and, and you would understand this

00:50:42.520 better than me, Ryan, that they are, they have to, to, to shave expenses. Everything is just in time

00:50:49.180 inventory. And we have, in my opinion, made the mistake of farming out way too much to China and to other

00:50:58.140 countries because we think it's cheaper. Well, all of those gains we had because we thought it was cheaper

00:51:05.020 over the last 30, 20 years are erased with something like this. So we need to have a stable inventory.

00:51:14.960 We need to have probably through our government storehouses of the equipment that we're going to

00:51:20.540 need. If you're going to collect taxes from every American, then you have to be able to provide in

00:51:26.040 that time of need for every American. Yeah. That seems like a reasonable request.

00:51:32.040 Yeah. To you, you know, it's easy to spend other people's money ineffectively, but if you are going

00:51:37.480 to use those dollars, then you ought to leverage them to their maximum potential. Yeah. If you're

00:51:42.140 going to do that. Provide masks and gowns and gloves for our frontline healthcare workers. I have no

00:51:48.380 problem paying my taxes for something like that. I have problems paying taxes and finding out that it's

00:51:55.100 been squandered or that people in the government have access to information I don't and act on that to

00:52:01.040 enrich themselves. Yes. Yes. I'm glad that you brought that up. Not, not somewhere I had planned

00:52:06.660 on going, but it is disheartening to say the least. I have a few other choice words for this,

00:52:12.980 for this situation. But when you enter, you know, you engage in insider trading based on information

00:52:17.640 that isn't privy to anybody else. And you're supposed to be the ones protecting the public,

00:52:23.160 serving the public. Yeah. There's a huge, huge moral issue with that.

00:52:26.640 You know, what we need is a wall of shame. Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm, I'm just worried a lot

00:52:32.400 of these people don't have any shame, so it wouldn't do, it wouldn't do any good.

00:52:36.040 You're probably right. I also think there's a level of arrogance and, and not just in our

00:52:41.240 politicians, like we're alluding to now, but even just, just us and the way that we consume

00:52:46.140 and the way that we believe that, uh, nothing could ever happen to us. And that arrogance is

00:52:52.520 coming to, to bite us in the butt right now. Absolutely true. Um, one of the things I I'd 0.99

00:52:57.680 like to do, if you, if you like to go this direction is, is sort of talk to what can people

00:53:02.920 do in their families to protect themselves? That'd be great. Would that be okay? Yeah. So,

00:53:08.080 so the way I think about this is the same way you would think about, uh, any war, any endeavor

00:53:14.260 you're going to embark on. You think about the context and what are contextually appropriate

00:53:20.700 layers of protection. Okay. So where I live, when nighttime comes, I lock my front door and

00:53:28.340 back door, two layers of protection. I close my first floor windows, second layer of protection.

00:53:34.200 I flip an outside light on three layers of protection. That's all I need. You live in other

00:53:39.040 areas of the country. You might have an alarm system, four levels. Now you might have window

00:53:45.340 bars, five, a panic button, six layers of protection. So what is that for you based on

00:53:51.400 where you live and your family's context? You have an older parent living with you, a child

00:53:57.260 that has a medical problem and you do two things. First of all, and these are simple, but they

00:54:03.720 are profound in terms of actionable items. You cannot get infected with this virus. It is impossible

00:54:12.380 to get infected with this virus. If you don't breathe it in or introduce it into your body by

00:54:19.740 contaminated hands. So think of what that means. Um, when you're going to go out in public, social

00:54:26.440 distancing, if need be, you can make your own cloth mask. Does it work? It helps because you won't

00:54:33.340 breathe in. Yeah. Well, you won't breathe in those large respiratory droplets and it's more than

00:54:39.460 anything. It's a memory aid to not put your fingers on your face. Second thing is hand washing. If you go

00:54:45.840 to YouTube and you look up Dr. Poland and Jimmy Kimmel, we do a skit on there that shows people how

00:54:53.700 to wash their hands. We put a substance on their hands that's invisible, but it glows under a black

00:54:59.220 light and they're shocked at how poorly they wash their hands and what you actually have to do. And

00:55:05.680 hand washing is the best. Second best is hand sanitizer. Now here's the problem with hand washing. I have

00:55:14.100 never, ever, and just to be clear, ever seen a lay person wash their hands properly, but they all think

00:55:23.040 they do. So that's a problem. The same thing applies to hand sanitizer. They think they know

00:55:29.220 how to use hand sanitizer. The ones that work are the ones that are 60 to 70% or more alcohol.

00:55:36.940 And you have to, when you think about it, the riskiest thing in terms of, uh, touching a

00:55:42.200 contaminated surface and then infecting yourself are your fingers. Nobody washes the fingertips or uses

00:55:49.420 hand sanitizer very well on their finger. Yeah. They, they do something like this rather than,

00:55:54.800 than this, and then rubbing into each individual finger and even using enough of it. You need a

00:56:01.200 quarter to half dollar size of it to really coat your hands and let it air dry. Don't wipe it off

00:56:07.860 on a towel. You wipe your hands on a contaminated towel after you get done with it. You just defeated

00:56:11.820 the purpose of using that sanitizer. Right. So, you know, those are the two immediate layers,

00:56:17.220 social distancing, a third that we do to protect ourselves. Then in your unique circumstances,

00:56:23.400 you decide what to do in my home. You don't enter my home until you've sanitized your hands.

00:56:30.040 Okay. We don't leave a store without sanitizing our hands. Nobody comes into my home that's sick

00:56:37.460 or coughing or has a fever, unless it's my family member. And then I will take care of that.

00:56:42.200 Sure. And, and we do the reasonable things that scientists tell us are reasonable to do and they

00:56:48.560 work. They're really effective. I think a lot of people overlook this because of the simplicity of

00:56:55.120 it. Yeah. We have a tendency of doing that. If it's not, if it's not complex and complicated and

00:57:00.320 sophisticated, then it, it surely it doesn't work. Yeah. It's not high tech. Yeah. Right. Now that's

00:57:06.560 good feedback and something that I think is very important. I've got a friend here, uh, in Maine,

00:57:11.300 they're at, they're a, uh, uh, an apparel and a lifestyle company, all manufactured in the USA.

00:57:16.780 They make geese and rash guards, pants, boots, they make a lot of different stuff, but they've

00:57:21.460 shut down most of their operation and those things. And they've started making these, um,

00:57:26.200 masks, fabric masks that go around and, um, create a sleeve that you can actually put a, uh,

00:57:32.040 some sort of a mask, like either an N N 95 or some other, other type of mask.

00:57:37.340 Yeah. That's great. Good for them. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that, that's another good thing is we see,

00:57:43.180 you know, in times of hardship, we see people's true colors and we see how much good is actually

00:57:48.060 in the world and how many people are willing to step up and exactly, you know, it's a, it's a war

00:57:53.340 effort. We're in this together. And I actually, you, you, you put your finger on something that I'd been

00:57:57.880 saying where with this generation, our generation, we have to move from me to we, and that's how we'll

00:58:08.180 do best. That's how we always do best. That's why we're built for community. Well said. Well said.

00:58:14.980 Well, Dr. Poland, I want to be respectful of your time. I know you're going for a run here in the next

00:58:19.640 several minutes, and I want to let you, uh, get, get onto your night and do that. Uh, do you want to

00:58:24.620 ask you a couple of questions? We touched on one a little bit earlier, but what does it mean to be a

00:58:28.840 man? You know, my first response to that is that's probably, in fact, I'm going to do this.

00:58:36.880 I am going to write that on a three by five card and tape that on my bathroom window. Cause I think

00:58:42.160 that's a question I need to ask myself every day. I think that that's a profound, though, a simple,

00:58:48.640 a profound question for me, a man, first of all, analyzes himself, knows himself. What are my

00:58:58.000 strengths and what are my weaknesses? And then I work to correct my weaknesses. And I have many of

00:59:04.260 them. I'm a human being and I falter. I got to recognize those, be able to accept the consequences

00:59:11.560 of those and do better next time. And I think by being a man like that, you can then lead your

00:59:18.880 family. And again, I think that is in the physical, the mental and the spiritual realm. And, uh, I,

00:59:26.540 I raised my children that way. They got to see firsthand. We didn't hide anything from them,

00:59:31.520 whether it's finances, whether it's what I do at work, what's happening in the military, um, you know,

00:59:38.300 not scaring them inappropriately, uh, if they were young kids, but I wanted them to be realistic.

00:59:44.280 And I wanted them to see dad's working hard and dad's not going to be home right now for this

00:59:50.220 reason. And they grow up to be responsible adults. So, so I think that that self-knowledge,

00:59:57.100 that self-management, that mentoring is an important part of being a man. You start with you,

01:00:02.820 you, you, you move to your family, to your God, and then to your neighbor and your community.

01:00:08.800 And that's not always easy. I recognize that I'm not trying to be Pollyannish, but you know,

01:00:14.600 a man shares out of his plenty, a man helps those who can't help themselves. And a man recognizes

01:00:22.620 that that's a duty, not something I'm doing to, to get glory or pat myself on the back.

01:00:29.800 That's a duty of a man. That's really powerful. I really appreciate that perspective. Thank you

01:00:35.820 very much. Thank you. Well, what is the best way to connect with you to stay in touch? I know you're

01:00:40.800 putting out some, some video content. It sounds like on Instagram with the help of your son.

01:00:45.140 Obviously I've seen a little bit on YouTube. Where do we go to follow?

01:00:48.880 Yeah. I think if you go to Instagram, Dr. Greg Poland, also a YouTube channel, Dr. Greg Poland,

01:00:55.220 we'll probably try to do another Instagram live Q and a, uh, Ryan would, uh, I've really enjoyed this

01:01:02.540 with you. It's the first time I've gotten to meet you instead of just watching. Um, so I, I'd love to

01:01:08.480 do another show with you because things are changing. And if we can get that information to listeners,

01:01:13.880 then they can action that information. So, and then another, another time, yeah. Okay. And then

01:01:20.680 another time we can come back and talk from the perspective of a physician of how do you take care

01:01:26.600 of yourself and your family? What does that actually look like? Definitely. Yeah. I'd be

01:01:31.220 honored to be able to do that. Well, as, as we wind down, I want to thank you for your time,

01:01:36.600 your expertise, obviously your willingness and sacrifice to be on the front lines of this. I know

01:01:40.920 this is a very, uh, it's an interesting situation to put it mildly. And I'm glad to know there's people

01:01:47.140 like you on the front lines willing to engage and do something about it. Well, thank you. And thanks

01:01:51.720 for helping to get knowledge out. That's really our best weapon is knowledge. Definitely. And I'm

01:01:57.540 going to make sure to send Matt an email and thank him for the, uh, the introduction. And if you'd pass

01:02:02.000 that along as well, I'd appreciate it. Sure. Sure. All right. Thanks, Dr. Poland. All righty. Blessings.

01:02:06.740 Stay safe. All right, gents. There you go. My conversation with Dr. Gregory Poland. I hope you enjoyed

01:02:13.780 that episode and I hope you found it useful. There was some new information that I had heard

01:02:17.520 in there. And, uh, quite honestly, this was one of my favorite podcasts. It was one of my favorite

01:02:22.340 discussions over the past five years, because we talked about something that obviously is very

01:02:26.820 relevant and current and needs to be addressed now. But then we went in some different directions too,

01:02:30.920 that I thought was very insightful and, uh, also valuable to talk about. So, uh, if you would make

01:02:36.160 sure you follow me and Dr. Poland on Instagram, he gave you his Instagram handle and where you can

01:02:41.240 connect with him. Uh, he's actually going to come on and do an Instagram live with me in, in the coming

01:02:46.640 weeks. So make sure you subscribed or following both of us over there. So you can be notified when

01:02:52.100 that's the case. And we'll do an ask me anything style, uh, conversation on Instagram. Uh, and then

01:02:57.520 just make sure you're, you're incorporating the ideas and thoughts and strategies that he had suggested,

01:03:01.900 because this is how we lead in times of crisis. And this certainly won't be the only crisis that, uh,

01:03:07.220 many of us will face, but it's the most pressing. It's obviously the most current, uh, and we have

01:03:11.960 an opportunity. And I do look at these uncertain and frankly, in some ways, scary times as an

01:03:17.980 opportunity to step up, to lead, to serve, to protect, to provide, to preside, to do all the

01:03:23.420 things that we've been talking about, uh, over the past five years. So, uh, know that I'm inspired by

01:03:28.120 you, uh, that I look to you for guidance and inspiration and direction. And I learned just as much

01:03:32.980 from you as I hope that you learn from me and our guests. So that's it guys. Uh, we'll be back

01:03:38.240 tomorrow for our Friday field notes. And then of course, next week for another interview and ask me

01:03:43.280 anything and all the information that we're putting out there, just make sure you follow us on the,

01:03:47.060 on the socials, specifically Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all at Ryan Mickler. And we'll stay

01:03:52.960 connected over there. Also check out the iron council. If you are feeling disconnected, this might be a

01:03:59.000 great way to, uh, connect with other motivated, ambitious, inspirational, aspirational men. Orderofman.com

01:04:07.140 slash iron council. All right, guys, get to it. We'll be back tomorrow. Until then take action, become a man

01:04:12.540 you are meant to be. Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of

01:04:17.960 your life and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.

01:04:29.000 We'll be right back.

Order of Man - March 26, 2020

Winning the War with Coronavirus ｜ DR. GREGORY POLAND

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