Order of Man - ZUBY ｜ Common Sense in Uncommon Times

00:00:00.000 Increasingly, it seems to be that we're losing much of the common sense that we collectively

00:00:04.180 once possessed. Common sense has been replaced with quick soundbites and clapbacks on social

00:00:10.300 media and manufactured outrage, all designed to drive clicks and capture eyeballs and attention.

00:00:16.280 But my guest today is using his voice, social media, and any other platform available to share

00:00:21.840 his common sense, rational approach to some of the world's most pressing concerns. His name is Zuby.

00:00:28.040 And I know many of you are already familiar with his work. Today, we talk about the dangers of

00:00:32.480 tribalism, the motives and intentions of our government overlords and elites, how to have

00:00:37.500 real conversations that actually drive change, why empathy is crucial in dialogue, and ultimately

00:00:44.040 how to recapture common sense in uncommon times. You're a man of action. You live life to the

00:00:50.720 fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back

00:00:56.240 up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred or defeated, rugged, resilient, strong.

00:01:03.800 This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day. And after

00:01:09.520 all is said and done, you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen, what is going on today? My name is

00:01:15.100 Ryan Michler, and I am the host and the founder of the Order of Man podcast and movement. Welcome here

00:01:20.040 and welcome back. If you are new and just joining us for the first time, this is a movement and

00:01:26.220 specifically a podcast designed to give you the tools and conversations and resources and guidance

00:01:32.140 and direction, everything that you need to become a more capable man for yourself, for your family,

00:01:37.500 your community, your employees, colleagues, coworkers, friends, et cetera, et cetera. So what we do is

00:01:43.060 interview incredible men, extract some of their knowledge and wisdom and expertise, distill that

00:01:47.780 information and give it to you so that you can take that information and most importantly, apply it in

00:01:53.740 the real world because it's not enough to talk. We need to apply the principles that we're learning

00:01:58.780 and hearing from with our guest experts. Today, I've got Zuby back on the podcast. I know a lot of you

00:02:04.540 guys are familiar with him. He's got such a large reach that I'm sure there's a lot of crossover here

00:02:08.780 and I figured it'd be good to have him back. We had an opportunity to spend four or five days

00:02:14.100 together last week here in Maine, my place in Maine. And, uh, since I had him on two years ago,

00:02:19.580 his reach and his impact has only grown exponentially. Uh, and we get into why that is,

00:02:24.820 but to give you an idea, he's got over 500,000 followers on Twitter. He's got nearly 1 million

00:02:30.480 followers across all of his social media platforms. Uh, he's a graduate of Oxford university. He's a

00:02:36.560 rapper, a podcast host, an entrepreneur, a public speaker. He does so much. Uh, and today, uh, we're going

00:02:43.240 to hear why his message continues to resonate with the masses and take some of that practical

00:02:50.340 common sense, rational approach to life. And again, apply it in ours before we get into the

00:02:55.080 conversation very quickly. Just want to mention, uh, my friends over at origin, Maine, starting to cool

00:03:01.440 off here in Maine a little bit. Maybe it's not quite cool where you are, but it is coming. Winter is

00:03:05.760 coming. Uh, and if you're looking for American made products, boots, denim, geese, rash guards,

00:03:14.140 uh, leatherworks, belts, wallets, et cetera, et cetera, make sure you check out origin, Maine.com.

00:03:20.680 And today I specifically want to talk about their denim. They've got their Delta jeans, which have a

00:03:25.520 very light fabric denim material, but it's, it's got some stretch in it too. So if you're active and you

00:03:30.840 move around and whether that's working out or just being active in your day-to-day activities or,

00:03:35.160 or your career line of work, uh, the denim, uh, Delta jeans are your go-to again, a hundred percent

00:03:41.880 made and sourced in America. So go to origin, Maine.com origin, Maine.com. And when you do use

00:03:48.580 the code order, O-R-D-E-R at checkout. All right, guys, with that said, let's get to the conversation

00:03:55.500 with Zuby. Enjoy. Mr. Zuby, what's up, man? Glad to have you out here to Maine. No doubt, man.

00:04:01.500 Happy to be here, brother. Did you come to Maine on your last visit or is this your first trip out

00:04:04.680 here? No, it's my first time in Maine ever. We've had a lot of really good conversations just in the

00:04:09.120 past, like 24 hours. I kind of wish we would have been able to hit record from the minute we started

00:04:14.000 talking to now, but we'll still have some good conversations. Absolutely, dude. I'm all about

00:04:18.280 conversation. What are you thinking about your trip out here? Man, I'm so happy to be out in the States

00:04:22.440 again. I'm so happy to be out in the States again. It's been two years since I was last out. A lot of

00:04:27.180 stuff has happened and my own profile and the platform of my message has grown very, very

00:04:33.880 significantly since the last time I was out. And it's one thing to see numbers go up online, but as I was

00:04:38.600 saying to you before, it's another thing to have people coming up to you in different cities, even

00:04:42.120 places you've never been before, telling you about how you've impacted their life in a positive way

00:04:47.100 or just help them to feel more sane throughout this 18-month period with all of this weird

00:04:52.160 pandemic-related stuff going on, whether you've helped them with the physical aspect and mental

00:04:57.600 aspect through my book, Strong Advice, or just following me on Twitter or listening to my music,

00:05:02.960 whatever it is, the fact that people of all different ages and walks of life are able to

00:05:08.300 take something positive from what I do and the fact that that's now a global phenomenon. I mean,

00:05:13.100 I'm from the UK, so to be out here in US, in Maine, Florida, Texas, all these different places,

00:05:18.780 businesses, and there's people who know who I am and care about what I'm doing and are so happy and

00:05:23.660 excited to see me. That's phenomenal. What do you attribute the amount of growth that you've had

00:05:30.400 with your social media profiles and platforms and everything that you're doing? You know, because

00:05:34.660 there's a lot of people out there who are putting content out, right? But aren't as growing as rapidly as

00:05:39.840 you, why do you think that is? I think it's because of authenticity. And I think it's because

00:05:46.960 although I can only ever speak for myself and I only ever intend to speak for myself,

00:05:52.440 as a byproduct of that, I do speak for hundreds of millions, potentially billions of people who share

00:06:00.120 my thoughts and who perhaps are not able to articulate some of them in the same way I do.

00:06:06.080 Or even if they can articulate them, they don't have access to hundreds of thousands or millions

00:06:10.860 of people to hear what they're saying. So to give an example, during this 18 month period,

00:06:17.180 no matter where you are in the world, everyone's been dealing with this COVID thing. People have

00:06:21.240 questions, people have concerns about the virus itself, but then also at this stage, largely the

00:06:27.660 response, right? You're seeing all these different governments responding in different ways.

00:06:31.600 People are worried about loss of their freedom. People are worried about their mental health,

00:06:35.440 their physical health, all of the downstream economic impact, so on and so forth, impact on

00:06:40.300 children. And the media is not keen to really talk about this. So the mainstream sources, you're not

00:06:48.300 getting a lot of those open, honest conversations and questioning. Whereas all throughout, I'm there

00:06:54.900 raising my own questions and my own concerns and voicing my opinions. And lo and behold, there are

00:07:00.900 millions and millions of people out there, possibly billions who feel the same way. And perhaps they're

00:07:06.860 afraid. A lot of people are afraid to voice it. Other people are voicing it, but they don't have

00:07:12.300 access to a large platform. Some people want to voice it, but they don't really know how to...

00:07:18.540 Not everyone's great at articulating their thoughts. Sure. And as a rapper and as a podcaster and as a

00:07:24.700 public speaker, that's my job. All I really do is articulate thoughts and ideas in a way that other

00:07:33.080 people struggle to. It's the same way that... Well, I was going to say, you said something

00:07:37.200 interesting. Last night we're sitting around, my wife and you and I were sitting around talking and

00:07:41.040 you said, you had this thought and I saw a little bit of it, like the gears turning in your head.

00:07:46.240 And you said something to the effect of, I just need to figure out the right way to word the

00:07:51.860 message so it resonates. And I think that's what you're talking about here is you don't just dump

00:07:57.160 out whatever, word vomit, whatever comes to mind. You're very deliberate and calculated about the

00:08:02.820 way that you communicate a message so that people can receive it. Yeah. A lot of it is also just

00:08:07.520 thinking out loud. And I think perhaps that takes a level of courage to do. So a lot of people follow

00:08:14.780 my Twitter account. I've got one of the most active Twitter accounts on the entire platform.

00:08:19.640 And with a lot of that, it's just me thinking out loud. Sometimes it's things that I've thought

00:08:24.300 about a lot and I've formulated and I'm writing in a particular way, as you said. Oftentimes, or me

00:08:30.480 having this conversation with you right now, I'm just thinking out loud. I don't choose to... I used

00:08:36.540 to keep my thoughts very much to myself. And then I found both through my music and through social

00:08:42.060 media and video and podcasting. Actually, there's a lot of value, not just for myself,

00:08:47.320 but in the world and just sharing those thoughts and ideas and getting that feedback. You can only

00:08:53.140 do so much thinking by yourself. If you just sit in a room alone and you think about any idea,

00:09:00.060 you're limited in your capacity. You need another person or other people to bounce ideas off of.

00:09:07.440 Or to challenge a particular thought, which we've done plenty of. You know, I said something,

00:09:11.000 I don't agree because of this. And that isn't... I think people take that in today's culture as

00:09:17.540 like a verbal attack or a microaggression. And when you and I have minor disagreements,

00:09:23.220 I take it as a challenge of like, well, let's flesh this out. Like, here's my thought. Well,

00:09:27.640 here's my thought. And we come to some mutual understanding.

00:09:30.600 Absolutely, man. Steel sharpens steel. I mean, if you were... I know you do jujitsu training,

00:09:35.020 right? How much training can you do alone? Yeah. I mean, not... Right. Well, you know,

00:09:40.040 you can do some. I mean, you can work on technique, but you got to have somebody push you against you.

00:09:44.460 Yeah. You need someone else there to optimize your training, right? Physical or mental. And it's the

00:09:53.400 same. You can also do the same thing online. If I'm there and I just put a tweet out or I put a video

00:09:57.500 out and I choose to just share it out there, maybe it's only an idea I've thought halfway through,

00:10:02.660 or maybe I just have a question. I just have a question. I'm just like, okay, why aren't we

00:10:08.400 talking more about natural immunity? Right? That's something that's strangely absent from the

00:10:14.440 general conversation. You've had this hundreds of millions of people have contracted this particular

00:10:18.840 virus and thus now have the antibodies. Why is that not part of the narrative? Why are the

00:10:23.860 journalists saying, wait, why aren't the journalists saying, hey, what about natural immunity? What about

00:10:27.980 this? What about that? Right? And so I'm just putting that out there. And also,

00:10:32.540 by me putting it out there, it gives inverted commas permission for other people to then broach

00:10:38.840 that because people are kind of scared and worried and they're like, ooh, can I talk about this? Can

00:10:42.980 I talk about that? And actually by someone prominent, and there's people with way bigger

00:10:47.460 platforms. I mean, this is something Joe Rogan is great at. If he broaches a subject, then it kind

00:10:51.300 of shifts the Overton window slightly. So it's like, oh, now people are willing to talk about that

00:10:57.460 particular thing because he kind of gave permission. So I think that's a lot of the value of it. And I

00:11:03.080 always say conversations are so important on every level because there's only ever three ways to solve

00:11:07.940 any conflict. There is conversation and debate and discussion. There is separation, segregation,

00:11:15.680 divorce, or there's physical violence. That's all. Those are the only three ways you can solve any

00:11:21.280 conflict. It doesn't matter if you're talking between countries, between a husband and a wife,

00:11:25.220 between siblings, between friends, political, religious, whatever. Those are the only three

00:11:30.660 options. So that first channel always has to stay open. Whenever people start trying to close that

00:11:36.500 first channel down, that's part of why I'm very anti-censorship, anti-de-platforming, anti-this

00:11:43.520 concept of, oh, you can't talk to this person, you can't talk to that person. Because if you can't do

00:11:48.280 that, then it leads to the second, right? Which you do see when you're seeing people, oh, I unfriended my

00:11:54.040 friend on Facebook because he won't vote for Trump. I disinvited my cousin from my wedding because

00:11:58.560 they won't take the vaccine. I dropped my friend because he voted for Brexit or all of this nonsense.

00:12:05.780 It's like, okay, so you're choosing now to segregate society. But isn't there a time and a place where

00:12:11.540 that actually makes sense? Potentially. As I said, that is a way to solve a conflict,

00:12:17.400 right? You know, you go your way. I'll go my way. You don't think, right? That's what a divorce

00:12:23.140 is, right? Two people who were married, they've decided, or at a lower level of relationship breakup,

00:12:30.160 you know what? This is not working. There's this conflict. It's not working. The best way forward

00:12:36.080 is for us to separate. You know, that doesn't mean that the discussion necessarily has to totally

00:12:40.280 break down either, but that's a way. I mean, to some degree, you could say that this is what,

00:12:47.400 although it happens somewhat organically, countries are like that to some extent,

00:12:53.580 whereas they communicate. But if you have like a huge clash of cultures or totally different

00:12:58.200 belief system, it's like, okay, well, we're this country over here. We're this country over here.

00:13:02.420 You guys do your thing. We'll do our thing. You can still communicate, et cetera.

00:13:06.360 But again, but even still in those cases, if the communication breaks down totally

00:13:11.000 and those individuals or groups come into contact, then they come into conflict. That's what wars are.

00:13:18.100 Yeah, that's true because there might be some boundaries there. Again, I'm thinking about it

00:13:20.920 through the lens you're looking at, whether it's a country or relationship or whatever. And there are

00:13:25.420 usually some boundaries there that whether or not they're communicated or are there, right? There's

00:13:31.000 even boundaries between friends. You and I have boundaries, right? Whether we communicate them or not.

00:13:35.580 And if we don't communicate those boundaries, it's likely that I'll cross your boundary or you'll

00:13:40.360 cross mine. Even if it's not with no ill intent, it just happens. And then you react or I react and

00:13:46.100 so it goes. It does. And, you know, communication is, I think being a powerful communicator and being

00:13:52.680 competent at communicating is, I think more than ever, it's, it's rare and it's a little bit of a

00:13:59.760 superpower. Whether you're talking online or offline. I think that a lot of people, especially

00:14:06.160 younger people have become really bad at communicating. There's very poor communicators.

00:14:12.420 I think this is why you're also seeing this, the rise of whether it's cancel culture or it's these

00:14:20.500 students at universities who can't handle a speaker who they disagree with. And so it's just,

00:14:26.660 it's all shut it down, de-platform, shut it down, censor. It's not, okay, let's have these

00:14:32.800 conversations and let's share ideas and let's try to understand each other. I mean, you see this

00:14:37.240 across, I mean, the most obvious example would be just across the political aisle. When you have

00:14:41.800 this, you know, it's sort of an artificial binary split where you have, you know, the left and the

00:14:47.640 right or Democrats and Republicans, labor and conservative, however you want to put it, liberal

00:14:52.180 versus conservative, whatever. And people in the past, sure. There's always been political

00:14:58.800 conflict. That's not anything new. However, if you were to just go back to the nineties or even

00:15:03.560 the early thousands, it wasn't as polarized, right? There wasn't this notion that everyone who votes

00:15:11.360 for the other party or the other candidate is somehow evil. Yeah. An evil piece of human

00:15:17.080 or something. Right. Right. I don't, I don't know. I mean, maybe this, maybe this did happen to some

00:15:21.280 degree in the past, but this notion of segregating yourself from your own family members, your own

00:15:28.940 friends. I mean, that's literally a person saying that their allegiance to the party is more important

00:15:35.040 than their relationship with their brother, their sister, their son. Do you think it's, do you,

00:15:39.460 do you think that's the thought going through their mind? Cause I think the thought would be more

00:15:43.540 my allegiance to my ideology is more important than this relationship. And they look at it as a

00:15:51.580 virtuous thing. They do, but they're wrong. Right. And whether they're right or wrong, I agree,

00:15:58.260 but I think that's how they're viewing it. I don't think they look at themselves as like a party person.

00:16:03.540 I don't necessarily think they do, but oftentimes people, the way they frame it or the way they think

00:16:11.020 of it isn't necessarily what it is. Right. I mean, if you no longer talk to your brother

00:16:18.220 because he voted for a different political, but not because he did anything to you or because,

00:16:23.100 but you know, he, Oh, he's just, he voted, he voted away. I don't like then by definition,

00:16:28.020 you are putting, you are putting politics over family. You are putting the party over family by,

00:16:35.860 by definition. Right. You know, you know, he's not a,

00:16:38.120 I guess the reason I ask is because it's this, this concept of tribalism. Right. And I think

00:16:44.560 people were all, we're all tribal. Yeah. Whether it's team Zuby or the, the, the Red Sox is your

00:16:53.040 team or what it like, we all have tribes, right? But I don't know that people believe themselves to

00:16:58.740 be as susceptible to group think to tribe think as they actually are. Yeah. I agree with you.

00:17:04.500 I agree with you. And this is why it's important for people to be aware of this because if you're

00:17:10.740 aware of your own, look, there, there's a lot of forms of cognitive errors. There's cognitive

00:17:16.960 dissonance, group think, sunk cost fallacy, confirmation bias, uh, tribal allegiance,

00:17:24.280 so on and so forth. Pure pressure. We're all subject to nobody has perfect thinking,

00:17:29.920 nobody's thinking is perfectly rational and unemotional and so on and so forth. So we're,

00:17:36.240 we're all subject to this. Right. And you see it in different ways. I mean, even in you invest in

00:17:41.960 the stock market, right. Or you invest in cryptocurrency and when the price is going up and up and up,

00:17:48.060 what, what feeling is generated? You want to buy more of it, right?

00:17:51.480 No, you shouldn't do. Exactly. Even when you're aware of that and then, Oh, the price drops,

00:17:56.460 you know, you're in Bitcoin. Oh, price dropped 10% in a day. The urge is to sell. Sure. The urge

00:18:01.480 is to sell, even though logically, if you think calmly and rationally, assuming you believe in

00:18:05.620 the investment, that's the time to buy. Right. Um, but human beings have this, these cognitive errors.

00:18:13.980 If there are, I mean, if you look into the Ash experiment, which is the one where they draw the

00:18:18.100 lines, I don't know if you've seen that. Uh, keep going. Maybe I don't know. Okay. The Ash

00:18:21.760 experiment is where there's a room full of people and really one person at a time is being tested

00:18:29.160 and they, they draw different lines on the board, right? You draw three lines, uh, and they're of

00:18:35.720 different lengths and you ask the group, okay, which one is the longest? And you can clearly see

00:18:40.660 which one is the longest. But if the majority of people say that the shorter one is the longest,

00:18:45.860 then the person being tested, who's not in on this will normally majority of times,

00:18:51.580 they will go with what the group says, even though with their own two eyes, they can see

00:18:56.380 that that line is longer than the other one, but they're, they pick the shorter one because

00:18:59.860 everyone else is picking the shorter one. Have you seen the experiment they did along the same

00:19:04.340 lines? And I have heard of that experiment that what, uh, they're, they're at maybe a doctor's

00:19:08.820 office or, or some sort of waiting room to go into a meeting. And the people who are part of the

00:19:15.040 project, one of them will stand up every five minutes or whatever. And at first the person

00:19:20.340 who comes in, it doesn't know about, it's like, why is this person standing up? And if they have

00:19:23.560 like two or three people standing up every five minutes and then sitting down that person who no

00:19:28.280 longer, who doesn't know anything about the project will also stand up with them. Then when

00:19:33.000 the controls leave, the controlled people leave, that person will continue to do it. Even when new

00:19:39.220 people come in and that's just trickles down from there and they don't even know why they're doing it.

00:19:43.320 No, no, no. This is, this happens. I mean, we've seen this with the mask thing. Yes. Yes. You see

00:19:47.440 it with the mask thing. And, and you could, you can, I'm sure over the past 18 months, regardless of

00:19:51.680 where you live, if you're listening to this and again, no one is immune to this because human beings

00:19:57.340 are social creatures. If you walk into a room of 50 people and nobody is wearing a mask, if you wear a

00:20:05.100 mask, you feel weird. Yes. You feel totally out of place. And in most cases that person will take it off

00:20:12.480 to be in the majority. Similarly, if you've ever been in a room, I know this cause I haven't worn

00:20:17.740 masks very much at all throughout this whole thing. But still, if, if you go in somewhere where

00:20:22.900 everyone is wearing one and you're the one who's not, you feel a sense of social pressure,

00:20:29.720 even if no one says anything, you feel like the odd one out. And so oftentimes people will put it on

00:20:36.180 just to comply. And this shows, you know, people are not, you're not worried about like a virus in

00:20:40.220 itself. In many cases, it's more about fitting in. It's more about the compliance and acceptance.

00:20:45.560 And the majority of people want to be in the majority. That's just how human beings are.

00:20:50.780 It's, it takes a certain personality trait to not really care about what other people are doing and

00:20:56.180 to not give it, give into that. Um, when is that? So, you know, there's times where obviously that's

00:21:01.960 appropriate. You know, I think about a scenario where there might be some sort of, uh, let's,

00:21:07.520 let's take a natural disaster or you're climbing Mount Everest. You know, clearly there's going to

00:21:11.320 be somebody who is more, has more expertise or knowledge, uh, is capable of handling and navigating

00:21:18.840 that situation. And at times it makes sense to default to, to that individual. Absolutely. So

00:21:25.360 when is that appropriate and when is it not appropriate and when should you be standing up?

00:21:31.560 That's a great question, man. Um, I think for me personally, and everyone, everyone is going to

00:21:37.400 be different with this for me personally. I, and I, I'm not someone who honestly has ever really cared

00:21:43.180 about fitting in with the majority. I'm just wired that way. And for me, it just comes down to,

00:21:49.320 does this make sense to me? Right? So I don't have a problem with authority in itself.

00:21:55.040 When you say, does it make sense? Are you talking about logically or is that sort of an intuition?

00:21:59.900 Like what does that feel for you? I mean, logically. Okay. So, so to use the same example,

00:22:04.800 because it's timely and, you know, I know I talk about the COVID thing a lot, but to me that it's

00:22:08.880 psychologically, it's been such a fascinating experiment. Okay. So if you were to take the

00:22:13.820 mask thing, okay. Can you, can you pass on a virus you don't have? No. Okay. So if you are not sick

00:22:23.640 and if you don't have the virus, why are you wearing a mask, right? You're trying to stop

00:22:29.880 yourself from spreading, assume, assuming that's a whole nother debate about whether masks do

00:22:35.080 anything, but even assuming they've worked, it would, it would only make sense for somebody

00:22:38.880 who is sick and maybe they're, they're coughing or sneezing, et cetera, to wear one and wear a

00:22:43.900 specific one that would actually block transmission. If they're sick and they're in public, right?

00:22:50.420 There's no logical reason why someone wandering around outside or driving in the car alone or

00:22:55.520 whatever. And any, well, anyone not sick period, there's no logic to, to not wear it, to wear a

00:23:00.060 mask. Well, I think the argument to that in particular, there's two that I've heard. Okay.

00:23:04.140 One is, well, you know, asymptomatic. The other is, uh, and we've heard even Fauci say this is the,

00:23:11.860 I want people to see, like I'm putting on, it's performative, right? I'm putting this on. So

00:23:16.680 people have a quote unquote, good example. I think he said something along those lines.

00:23:20.160 So that's the argument to what you're saying.

00:23:22.000 Yeah. Well, neither of those are good arguments to me, so I won't do it. And that's, that's it

00:23:27.620 for me, right? That's the calculation. It's not me trying to be a jerk or to go against the grain

00:23:32.440 for the sake of going against the grain or whatever. I'm just like, no, that doesn't make sense.

00:23:36.020 So I don't care how many other people are doing it. It doesn't make sense. I mean, if someone said

00:23:41.300 that to go into a supermarket, you should walk in backwards.

00:23:46.340 No, it's like your mom used to say, like, if, if your friends jumped off a bridge,

00:23:50.200 would you jump off a bridge too?

00:23:51.520 Yeah, exactly. Right. Or it was something that's, you know, not even that, uh, you know,

00:23:56.400 life or death. Sure. Right. If it was just simply, yeah. You know, every time you walk into a door,

00:24:00.900 walk through a doorway, you should walk through backwards. Right. Because science, right. I'd be

00:24:07.140 like, that makes no sense. I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. Cause it doesn't,

00:24:10.620 it doesn't make sense. If it makes sense, I'm happy to follow rules. I'm happy to follow authority

00:24:16.100 that makes sense. I'm not by default, someone who's a rule breaker or a rebel or whatever.

00:24:23.340 I'm just like, wait, hang on. Especially if you're introducing something that's

00:24:26.980 very, very much an inverse or antithetical to normal human behavior. Okay. So prior to 2020,

00:24:33.740 nobody wore a mask in public, unless you're trying to rob somebody or you're trying to like

00:24:38.560 steal from a bank or somebody, nobody did it. So if you're going to introduce something that is so,

00:24:45.640 you know, literally the reverse of, of normalcy, then you need to have a darn good reason

00:24:52.360 why you're doing it. Like, I'm not someone who's just going to be like, yes, sir. Oh,

00:24:56.500 you know, Fauci said, or, you know, the, the, the authority is like, no, the authority needs to

00:25:00.720 have a reason. If they're like, you know what, wash your hands. I mean, I already washed my hands,

00:25:05.360 but it's like, yeah, that makes sense. Right. Why? Because you get germs, bacteria,

00:25:08.460 virus, they're on your hands. You know, you're going about and about perfectly makes sense.

00:25:12.780 It's totally, it's totally logical. If they say, uh, when you enter a restaurant, you should wear

00:25:17.600 a mask because you enter. And then once you're seated, you can take your, I'm like, I'm not

00:25:21.000 doing that. That's stupid. You know, COVID only works at certain nights, you know, anything above

00:25:24.440 three to four feet. So we're safe right now because we're sitting down. Yeah. So that doesn't make sense.

00:25:28.980 If they say, oh, if you're sick, if you've got, you've got a cold, you, you're, you're, you're sneezing,

00:25:32.600 whatever, you know, you should stay at home and maybe get it. I'm like, sure. I mean, I, I had COVID

00:25:36.480 and I knew when I got, I was like, Ooh, I'm feeling kind of, I was like, you know, I should

00:25:40.020 get a test because I don't want to, you know, lo and behold, I actually, most people don't want

00:25:46.040 to spread diseases. You know, even if you have a cold, most people will avoid going out and about

00:25:52.240 in public and potentially giving it to someone. I didn't need it. And they're respectful of other

00:25:57.440 people. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. You know, I do also trust in human. This is the thing about a

00:26:02.680 free society is you have to allow adults to make decisions, even if sometimes those decisions are

00:26:12.840 not always what is best for them. And even sometimes potentially impact other people, right? That's

00:26:19.900 just part of living in a free society. There's always going to be a trade-off between freedom

00:26:26.040 and liberty and at least the perception of safety and security. Well, and not only that,

00:26:32.060 so let's take COVID and, and, you know, let, let, let's say that I'm, I'm deeply concerned about

00:26:36.860 COVID. Uh, and, and you're not, let's just throw this out there as a hypothetical. Uh, and you decide

00:26:43.140 to go unmasked and you go to the store and you go to the movies and you live your life the way that

00:26:46.440 you see fit. Well, people will say, well, you know, you have to worry about other people like me,

00:26:53.480 who is deeply concerned, for example, of COVID, but I get to make decisions too. And it's not

00:26:59.560 your responsibility to acquiesce to my concerns and my lifestyle. Right. And I think that's where

00:27:05.860 a lot of society has gone is that, well, you know, you have to be deeply careful and care about other

00:27:10.820 people. And they forget that other people can make their own decisions. If you're afraid of COVID

00:27:16.000 stay inside, you know, you, you have, you, you have to live your life too, but it's nobody's

00:27:21.140 responsibility to make you feel good or better about the way you choose to live or the way you

00:27:26.420 choose to respond to scenarios. Yeah. It's the infantilization of society is treating adults

00:27:32.380 as if they are just children, perhaps even toddlers who literally don't know at all what is good for

00:27:39.720 them or, or what is safe. And honestly, I think it's quite, I think it's quite insulting. Even with the

00:27:47.280 notion over the last year, the whole narrative was about saving grandma, right? Protecting the

00:27:52.040 elderly and so on. I mean, you're talking about people who have been on the earth for six, seven,

00:27:57.220 eight decades. They, they clearly know how to survive. Well, in other than that, why don't you

00:28:02.580 let grandma and grandpa make that decision? That's what I'm saying, right? You're trying to make

00:28:06.520 decisions. I'm not going to try to make decisions, tell someone who's 40 years, my senior, what is best

00:28:11.940 for them or exactly what, or try to force them. You could say, look, these are, these are the

00:28:15.860 guidelines. Look, this is who it's affecting. These are the potential hospitalization and death,

00:28:20.400 death rates in, look, if I ran things, my approach would be very simple. I'm very pro information

00:28:27.240 and I'm very pro liberty. Okay. It would be, as the data comes out, it would have been, okay, look,

00:28:36.000 these are the, these are the risks in different age groups. Okay. If you're under 20, honestly,

00:28:42.060 this thing's a nothing burger. Honestly, the probability of you getting hospitalized,

00:28:46.780 let alone dying is microscopic. It's, it's, it's less dangerous than the flu, right? You've got a

00:28:52.460 much greater risk of the freaking lightning strikes, like let alone drowning and traffic accidents and

00:28:57.460 things like that. If you're under 30 and you're remotely healthy, same thing under 40 and healthy,

00:29:03.480 mostly same thing. If you're, you know, if you're over 50, especially if you have some comorbidities,

00:29:08.460 you might want to exercise some, some caution and give, give people the numbers, right? Give people

00:29:13.580 the numbers, right? And then say, oh, okay. You know, if you're over 70, especially if you have

00:29:17.460 one or two more comorbidities, it's not a death sentence, but you know, at worst you could be

00:29:23.540 talking maybe somewhere between a 5%, 10% potential death rate. So especially prior to treatments

00:29:30.780 becoming available, et cetera, you know, we'd recommend you take these particular cautions. If you,

00:29:37.180 if you've got to stay home or work from home or do this, or have someone deliver your groceries for

00:29:41.380 you to minimize exposure, whatever it is. And again, this should be still be your choice. This

00:29:45.580 should still be your choice, but this is what we recommend. That would have been my approach,

00:29:50.440 but the problem, the problem with what you're saying is you can't consolidate power using that

00:29:54.740 approach. I know, but this is the thing, right? The people, it's not a problem for me. I'm saying

00:29:59.600 the people in power, that's the problem is they don't get to consolidate more and grasp more of it.

00:30:04.620 I'm fully aware. If they let people make their decisions. I'm fully aware. And this is a huge

00:30:08.660 problem in politics is that oftentimes the people in these positions are the people who are power

00:30:14.480 hungry. They're often the people who you'd actually least want in those positions. A lot of times why

00:30:20.620 it's hard to get good people into politics is because they don't actually want to control

00:30:26.140 everybody else that much. Right. So naturally you attract people who are much more authoritarian

00:30:32.020 and who lack the humility to accept that they actually don't know. I mean, the notion that one

00:30:38.960 person is the, whether it's the governor of a state or the mayor of a city or the president or prime

00:30:45.140 minister of a country, the notion that one person or a small couple dozen people know 100% with

00:30:51.320 certainty, what is best for millions and millions of people is absurd to me. It is right. They don't even

00:30:58.420 know your name. Right. People are out there acting as if these so-called leaders care so much about

00:31:06.240 them and care more about your own grandma and granddad and parents than you do. Right. Which

00:31:12.280 again is insulting. Right. Like, look, no one cares about my family. As it should be. More than it. No one

00:31:17.580 cares. No one cares about your family. Of course. More than you do. Of course. So with them coming out

00:31:21.700 trying to mandate, look, Ryan, this is, you know, you, if you want to protect your kids, you want to

00:31:26.640 do like, they don't even know who your kids are. They don't care about, they don't care about you

00:31:30.900 because they don't even know who you are. And they're trying to force this and force that and

00:31:34.280 force this. And whereas you've done your own risk analysis and calculation and thought, okay, this is,

00:31:39.560 this is what makes sense. There could well be families or individuals where they need to be

00:31:45.000 hyper cautious because they've maybe, they've got a family member who's elderly and they've got these

00:31:50.340 various conditions and they've got a weakened immune system. And so that particular group of

00:31:54.740 people needs to exercise a much, much higher level of caution. And that's their, and that's their

00:32:00.140 responsibility to bear. And it's also their Liberty. I 100 support their, I 100% support their right to

00:32:06.300 do that. I'd even go as far as saying, if you're going to have, um, you know, given where we are in

00:32:11.260 society, where you do, you've got taxes and you've got trillions of dollars or pounds to deploy in

00:32:18.400 various groups, I'd even say, look, let's direct the resources towards those people, right? Keep

00:32:23.760 people working, right? If you're young and you're healthy, like, what are you doing? Stopping people

00:32:26.920 going to work, pulling kids out of school, all that keep people working, keep the system going.

00:32:31.360 And then we can direct some resources towards the 10% of people who genuinely are at risk from the

00:32:39.960 virus itself. Right. And they're caretakers, right? If it means they need six months, they need even one

00:32:45.080 year until we've got some things worked out. I'm like, cool. That, that makes sense. But instead

00:32:52.120 it's, it's, it's all been this one size fits all lock down everybody, take all the kids out of school,

00:32:58.380 lock down this, shut all the businesses, do the all. And it's just like, this was totally,

00:33:03.080 totally, totally unnecessary. Um, but yeah, coming back, coming back away from the pandemic situation

00:33:08.500 though, what I was saying, I think how we got into this was just thinking about what makes sense,

00:33:14.500 right? Just thinking about what makes sense and where possible avoiding, look, we all have emotions

00:33:20.080 and we all should have emotions because if human beings were just 100% pure rational with no emotion

00:33:26.500 at all, it would actually be a very cold and evil world. Right. But also if people are so caught up

00:33:32.360 in their emotions that they totally ignore facts and data and reality, then you're also in trouble.

00:33:39.800 There has to be a healthy balance. And the problem with fear and anxiety is it shuts down people's

00:33:47.600 rational thinking, right? People resort to that lizard brain, primal brain, right? Yeah. Which is,

00:33:54.480 which can easily, when you couple it with tribalism, it can get very dangerous. Or when you couple it

00:34:00.580 with a situation where actually you need calm thinking and thinking about not just first order

00:34:04.420 consequences, but second, third, and fourth order consequences, you need people who are calm,

00:34:09.840 clear thinkers to talk, have these discussions you need to open up and allow these discussions to take

00:34:14.940 place. Cause even now, again, you're, you're, you're seeing all the fallout. So, I mean, April last year,

00:34:23.020 March last year, I was there literally on Twitter saying the cure, the response is more dangerous

00:34:30.440 than the thing being responded to. Sure. Right. Cause you can, you can see,

00:34:35.620 and you can predict what the fallout is going to be. The economic fallout, um, unemployment effect

00:34:42.380 on children, mental health, physical health, people missing diagnoses of other more deadly diseases,

00:34:49.660 such as cancer, people missing their treatments. This is still going on. You've had thousands and

00:34:54.480 thousands, possibly millions of people who are now going to die of cancer because they didn't get the

00:34:59.580 treatment. They couldn't get the treatment or it got diagnosed too late. Exactly. There's so many

00:35:03.820 things. Inflation. There are so many, let alone, you know, the impact on civil liberties, uh, human

00:35:10.020 rights. There are so many things that you could see if you kept a calm head and you thought, okay,

00:35:14.740 well, whoa, lockdowns. Okay. That's unprecedented. So you want to shut down the whole economy, shut down

00:35:19.720 all these businesses, take kids out of school, stop this, stop this, stop this. Like what's going to be

00:35:25.260 the consequences of that? This is the thing people didn't weigh up properly. It was just,

00:35:29.720 nope, shut up. Just don't kill grandma. We just need to shut everything down. Just did it at like

00:35:34.600 very myopic. Do you think, do you think that the powers that be, you know, the government officials

00:35:39.500 and the bureaucrats and all of this knew those consequences and that's why they're wielding this

00:35:43.620 the way they are. And then citizens are more ignorant to the devious desires of those other people.

00:35:51.080 Or do you think even at the top levels, they didn't see the consequences? I think it's a

00:35:55.320 little bit of both. I think that there are malevolent people out there who know damn well

00:35:59.840 what they're doing. Yeah. And they know that, you know, they are, they are intentionally trying to

00:36:05.480 crush small and medium businesses. They are trying to make people more reliant on the government.

00:36:09.480 They are trying to create this two tier society. They are putting profits over people. I believe all

00:36:13.500 of that exists. I also think that when, but I think that exists primarily at the top,

00:36:19.080 but I think that amongst everyday people or say everyday healthcare workers or whatever it is,

00:36:25.960 I think it's more people end up sort of being useful idiots for people who are malevolent,

00:36:32.500 right? That's what I think is going on. I do believe the average person generally has good

00:36:38.140 intentions. That doesn't mean that that always manifests in a good way, but I think that by the

00:36:43.880 time they're making the decision and they're saying things, they do think they're saying what's

00:36:49.460 right. But oftentimes they're basing that off incorrect, incorrect premises, which is also,

00:36:54.700 again, this is part of why conversation is so important because you could be barreling down

00:36:59.440 the wrong road and then you just need someone to go, wait, tap you on the shoulder, go, wait,

00:37:03.000 hang on, man. What about this? Right? So, so say somebody who, okay, let's take an extreme country,

00:37:08.960 New Zealand, right? In terms of response. Okay. So their notion is they're trying,

00:37:15.080 they want zero code, right? So anytime there's a case lockdown, the entire country, nobody comes in,

00:37:21.640 nobody goes out, lock everything down. Everybody stays home. Say you've got somebody who thinks

00:37:27.080 that that is the best approach. And there are people who think this is the best approach. I've

00:37:30.480 even spoken to people in New Zealand who think like, yeah, the government is handling this. Great.

00:37:34.460 This is the best approach. And I want to talk to that person and say, have you thought, what,

00:37:40.320 what are the, number one, what's the exit strategy? But number two, what are the consequences of this?

00:37:46.460 Think about socially, economically, financially, the impact on children, the impact on mental health,

00:37:53.060 anxiety, depression, your own rights. Take, take 10 different factors. Like what about,

00:37:59.860 so let's say, okay, you, you, you, you get COVID down, but what about all these other things? And

00:38:05.420 also how many more people die as a result of that, right? Think, think about it. So here, let's take,

00:38:12.600 let's take an analogy. Let's say thousands of people every year die in car accidents. There is no question

00:38:20.400 that in terms of car accidents, you could, you could, you could reduce car accident deaths very

00:38:27.640 significantly by lowering the speed limit to 30 miles per hour. Or not having cars or. Yeah, but

00:38:33.940 there's a thousand. Let's, let's not even go that far. Let's, let's say the national speed limits, what?

00:38:38.180 70, 80? Yeah. I mean, it depends on the state, but I think, yeah, 75, I think on a highway. Sure. Generally about 75. If you

00:38:44.420 reduced it to 30 miles per hour, fact, you would cut the amount of road deaths, probably by at least

00:38:50.780 80%, right? If you crash it 30 miles per hour, you're not going to die. Yeah. Sure. If you crash

00:38:55.560 at 30 miles per hour versus you crash at 75 miles per hour, the chance of survival is way, way, way

00:39:00.340 higher. This is why in a lots of residential areas, school zones, et cetera, it's 20 to 30. Okay.

00:39:07.240 So someone could say, oh, well, you know what? Like we've got thousands of X thousands of people

00:39:11.260 every year are dying in car accidents. Let's reduce the speed limit to 30 miles per hour.

00:39:15.340 Let's save lives. What is the downstream impact of that? What are the second, third, fourth order

00:39:20.640 consequences? I can almost guarantee you that more people would end up dying. What, what makes you say

00:39:25.340 that? Because there's not just one source of death. Okay. So if you do this, then think of all the,

00:39:33.760 all the logistics, think of all the trucks that deliver food, water, gas, groceries, everything all

00:39:40.340 around the country. Now they are massively delayed in, in getting the whole logistical system breaks

00:39:49.700 down. You now have shortages of groceries, you now have shortages of water, perhaps electricity grids

00:39:54.200 go down, et cetera. And that leads to more poverty, more damage and more death. So yeah, you've cut down

00:40:00.600 road deaths now, but now people are dying of all these other things. Congratulations. You got that one

00:40:04.960 factor down. Exactly. But this is what people have been doing, doing with the COVID situations where it's

00:40:09.920 like, you're focused on that one number. We're driving that number down, but it's like, yo,

00:40:13.920 you've got all these people now dying of other things. People are being plunged into poverty.

00:40:17.060 I remember seeing videos from the USA last year where people were miles long lines for food banks,

00:40:24.260 right? People, all of a sudden you had what? 80 million plunged into unemployment, something

00:40:28.360 ridiculous like that at the peak. People now can't feed their families. People are, I mean,

00:40:32.420 I think it's been predicted globally that over 200 million people have been plunged into poverty as a

00:40:37.480 result of the, of the, of the response, not the virus itself, but the response over 200 million

00:40:42.920 people last time I checked. Man, let me just hit the pause button very, very quickly on the

00:40:49.140 conversation. Now we've all heard the term quote, you know, my truth. And while it's a complete

00:40:55.020 misnomer because there's only the truth and your perception of it, it is very important to realize

00:41:01.120 that the circumstances that you do find yourself in are largely within your control. And for the month

00:41:07.480 of September inside the iron council, we're going to be talking about how to take charge of your

00:41:12.660 current reality and shape it in a way that serves you and the people you care about best. So when

00:41:18.840 you band with us inside of our exclusive brotherhood, you're going to unlock access to almost 1000 other

00:41:24.800 men now that are highly motivated, high achieving guys. And they're all working to craft a reality

00:41:30.720 that most other men simply talk about and dream about. So if you're ready to take your life to the

00:41:36.660 next level and you understand that in order to do that, you're going to need to be challenged and

00:41:41.540 pushed outside of your comfort zone, then join us inside the iron council today at order of man.com

00:41:47.220 slash iron council. Again, that's order of man.com slash iron council. Do that right after the

00:41:53.020 conversation for now, we'll get back to it with Zuby. This is why, you know, when we had, when it first

00:41:58.640 start, everything kind of first started, it was 14 days to slowly spread. And I thought,

00:42:02.540 okay, that makes sense. You know, like we have hot, we don't want to overwhelm the hospitals.

00:42:06.760 Maybe in the meantime, we start to figure out some treatments. We start working on a vaccine. Yeah.

00:42:12.240 Okay. That makes sense. And we focus or we change or shift our priorities based on what's in front of

00:42:18.340 us. This is a threat. Let's figure it out. And then once the threat is taken care of and we slow the

00:42:24.700 spread, hospitals weren't overwhelmed, figuring out new treatments. Then we start opening it back up

00:42:30.740 and looking at these other factors that they aren't considering right now, like the ones you're

00:42:34.220 talking about. Yeah. That's the thing. And to do that, it needs, it needs a calm head. It needs a

00:42:40.300 calm head because if you just look at the problem right in front of you and you forget about the,

00:42:48.040 cause look, every policy, if you want to, if you want to talk about politics, every policy has

00:42:54.180 trade-offs. Everything is trade-offs, right? There's always a cost, right? Yeah. And a lot of people

00:42:58.560 don't consider trade-offs in certainly in the political world, but even just in, in general,

00:43:03.660 that this is just the truth of life is there are always going to be trade-offs. There's always

00:43:10.620 going to be trade-offs. And one of the most obvious ones, as I said before, is freedom versus I would

00:43:17.100 say the illusion or perception of safety. Take another big one. Okay. I'm from the UK. You're from

00:43:22.220 the USA. Yesterday we were talking about guns. Okay. So a lot of people in the UK and Europe,

00:43:28.700 in Australia, in many places, they look at the USA and they're like, man, they've got like the gun

00:43:35.140 thing there is just, it's crazy, right? That's so dangerous. It's so dangerous, right? Whereas

00:43:39.440 Americans are like, no, this is our freedom. This is our liberty. Okay. And I can understand both,

00:43:45.280 both perspectives. Yeah, I think so. Right. But again, when you have many people who say,

00:43:51.160 say you've got someone who's very, very anti-gun rights. Okay. And they just want to say, just,

00:43:55.340 just, just ban guns, right? Just, just ban guns again, because they're looking at the numbers

00:44:00.860 they'll be looking at is they'll be looking at mass shootings. Right. Right. They'll, they'll be

00:44:05.360 looking at a very particular things. They're not looking at how many lives are saved by guns to

00:44:09.320 begin with. First of all, they're certainly not thinking about what are the consequences in terms

00:44:13.740 of potential governmental tyranny, or, you know, if a country, if another country were to try to invade the

00:44:18.700 USA, they're not thinking about that. They're not thinking about self-defense. They're just thinking,

00:44:23.340 oh my gosh, X number of people, there were X number of mass shootings in the USA. We need to get rid of

00:44:29.780 the guns. There were this many homicides or whatever it is. They're also not thinking of, okay, if you

00:44:34.220 disarm the general population who is left with the guns, right, is it just going to be the criminals,

00:44:39.080 whatever, right? They're not thinking, it's a very emotional, short-term, myopic way of thinking

00:44:44.900 in my own mind, right? It's very focused on what, like you're saying, one element instead of zooming

00:44:50.120 back and saying, okay, yes, that is a, that is a potential route that we can go. Let's explore it

00:44:57.020 and let's zoom out and see how it might impact these other areas of life. And then also because

00:45:03.060 of the tribalism and due to lazy thinking, people also then want to always demonize the other side,

00:45:09.780 right? So if a mass shooting happens and you are not, if a mass shooting happens and you yourself

00:45:16.540 express your support of gun rights, what will they call you? You're a murderer. You don't care about

00:45:21.300 children. You don't care about people dying. You're maybe even a terrorist. You're this, you're that.

00:45:25.800 We see it happen every time. Like it's the same, it's the same narrative. And they're trying to do

00:45:30.080 that to emotionally manipulate and blackmail people to give up their rights. They've done it with this

00:45:35.820 one, right? You're killing grandma. You don't care about other people. You're selfish.

00:45:39.780 You're this, you're that. It's, it's, it's the name calling, right? Even though you are, all that

00:45:43.780 you're doing is you're, you're thinking holistically. Sure. You may have a different

00:45:46.640 perspective, but you're also thinking holistically or, or maybe, maybe you're not. Maybe, uh, someone

00:45:53.180 who's a gun advocate is actually not looking at it holistically and they're looking at it from

00:45:57.600 their small window. Sure. Exactly. So now you have two windows that people are peering through

00:46:01.980 and they're, they're looking at different things and there's a much broader perspective for,

00:46:07.180 for everybody. And this is why you need to bring people together.

00:46:09.540 And let people talk because by definition, you can't see your own blind spots.

00:46:13.360 If you can see it, it's not a blind spot, right? So, and we all have our own leanings and beliefs

00:46:18.840 and ideologies and there's 7 billion plus people on earth. That means you've got 7 billion plus

00:46:23.440 different sets of opinions and ideas and, you know, experiences, et cetera. There's stuff that

00:46:29.700 I can talk about. I can speak eloquently and with knowledge about a lot of subjects.

00:46:34.360 I have tons of blind spots though. Even in stuff that I know about, there'll be an aspect. Okay. I

00:46:39.340 haven't, someone brings it up. You know what? That's a good point. I haven't, I haven't thought

00:46:43.700 of that factor. And then they say something else and I'm like, you know what? You, you haven't

00:46:46.940 thought of this part. And the more people you actually get, if you have five people, then you're

00:46:51.300 all, you, you get a better conversation because each person has a view. You've literally think

00:46:59.020 even visual, you've literally got a different perspective. I can not see what's behind me right

00:47:02.500 now. Right. But I can, I can look over there. This is what's behind you. You can literally see

00:47:05.760 what's behind me. So you can get those different angles and different perspectives. And then you have

00:47:10.560 a clear 360 view of the situation and not beyond that, you also create more empathy, which is something

00:47:17.860 that is really missing. This notion of people not being able to understand someone else's perspective

00:47:24.560 at all. And when people can't do that, they often ascribe the worst possible motive to it.

00:47:30.340 Let's go back to 2016 in the UK. You had Brexit in the USA. You had Trump's election in both

00:47:36.720 situations. There were millions of people, including people in the media who tried to simply paint it as

00:47:43.380 everyone who voted for Brexit is racist, right? Everyone who voted for Trump is racist and is

00:47:49.020 supporting white supremacy. They took the worst possible reason that somebody,

00:47:54.160 could have voted for that thing. Is it possible? I am sure that there are some, a very small number,

00:48:00.580 very tiny percentage, microscopic percentage. I'm sure there are a percentage of Americans who

00:48:05.740 actually are racist and they just voted for Trump because they thought that, you know, they liked some

00:48:11.300 of the inflammatory rhetoric and that exists. But just because that exists, you can't then take that

00:48:18.840 and say, okay, well, that, that is the reason for and apply, apply that to 70 million people or

00:48:24.360 whatever it is. I'm sure that there are some people who voted for Brexit just because they want to,

00:48:28.960 you know, they wanted to shut the borders and, you know, they don't like these Brown immigrants

00:48:32.000 coming. This is, I honestly, I think there's under 1% of people, right? So I'm not even denying that

00:48:37.760 that exists, but then to take that and to cast it across all these other people. And I always say,

00:48:42.960 look, if you don't, this is the thing that blows my mind, even in 2020. And I'm still seeing people

00:48:47.200 like, man, like I don't understand how anyone could have voted for Trump. I'm like, why don't

00:48:50.680 you ask them? Yeah. Right. You ask them open, openly ask. Yes. Yeah. Not, not in an accusatory

00:48:56.780 fashion. Like for me, it's not difficult to understand why someone would vote in any of

00:49:02.860 these particular directions. I don't find it particularly difficult to understand why somebody

00:49:08.440 would vote for Joe Biden or would vote for Trump or would vote for Brexit or against it. I don't find

00:49:14.380 any of those hard to understand. I'm a Christian. I believe in God. I don't think it's, I don't find

00:49:18.620 it difficult to understand why somebody would not, right? Because I have empathy and because I have

00:49:24.420 conversations and because I don't excommunicate everybody from my life who doesn't share my exact

00:49:30.520 opinion. I have some fantastic atheistic friends. We can sit and have like a three hour discussion

00:49:34.720 about whether or not God exists and how human beings came into existence and where morality comes

00:49:40.620 from. We can have all of these conversations and he knows I'm a good guy who's coming from a good

00:49:45.260 place. I know he's a good guy coming from a good place. We're not there insulting each other and

00:49:49.580 calling each other stupid. I'm not there saying, man, you're good. You're just going to burn in hell

00:49:52.840 and you're just like a nihilist and whatever. And he's not like, you're just some dummy who believes

00:49:57.500 in sky daddy, whatever. Right. Like, right. Like taking the dumbest version of the argument and

00:50:04.620 ascribing bad motive. It's just like, look, we respect each other. Right. I know you're a good

00:50:08.240 person. You know, I'm a good person. So if we have a difference of opinion on a topic,

00:50:13.460 let's assume as we know each other that we're coming from a decent place and let's try to

00:50:18.640 understand each other. Even if we still disagree on like a real core fundamental issue, I can now at

00:50:24.780 least understand. I get where you're coming from. Right. Right. We, we, we disagree. And oftentimes you'll

00:50:30.160 find that the point of disagreement is like a particular, it's like a very particular thing.

00:50:37.620 Right. Like a specific thing or what do you mean? Yeah. So beyond what people believe,

00:50:42.620 it's interesting to understand the epistemology of why they believe it. Cause we all have a line

00:50:47.600 of thinking. So every belief you have that you've considered, you've come to it through a line

00:50:54.340 of thinking, which you call it epistemology. Got it. Okay. Right. And even if two people reach the

00:50:58.800 same conclusion, they can have a different chain of thought to that conclusion that's led to it.

00:51:03.800 Exactly. Sure. So when you have that conversation and you kind of work it backwards, you'll often

00:51:08.960 find that there's a point of divergence, right? And it's not usually at the very beginning,

00:51:15.020 right? Which is what happens when people ascribe bad motive. When someone is just saying, oh,

00:51:19.840 it's because you're evil. He's a horrible person. You're a bad person or you're just stupid.

00:51:24.300 Okay. So say someone, you, you, you might have someone who's a, say you have someone who's an

00:51:27.960 atheist or even someone who's a theist. And they think you have an atheist who just thinks

00:51:31.620 people believe in God because they're stupid. Right. That that's their, that's their starting

00:51:37.020 point. Or you have someone who's a theist or you just simply, they don't believe in God

00:51:40.400 because they're malevolent or also they're stupid. Right. And it's like, that's the least

00:51:45.340 possible charitable. That's the least charitable possible version of events.

00:51:50.780 Well, and it's not even true. You know, I think about, I think about that with people who vote,

00:51:54.900 look, I didn't vote for Biden. So I look at people who voted for Biden. If I were to say

00:51:58.080 they're all stupid. No. I mean, give me a break. Yeah. You're, you're telling me tens of millions

00:52:03.060 of people are stupid. No, no, of course not. Exactly. And some of them are, but that's,

00:52:07.640 that's, that's separate than the fact. You know what I mean? It's also extraordinarily arrogant.

00:52:12.180 Sure. Right. Because you're automatically saying, well, I'm obviously smarter than all these people.

00:52:16.200 Right. And atheist who just thinks everyone who believes in God is like, you're just telling,

00:52:19.180 saying that billions of people are just stupid and you're by definition smarter than them.

00:52:24.120 Right. Which actually in itself, the way you even, the fact you even think that way is evidence that

00:52:28.900 you're not that smart. Right. If you think it's that simple, you're really not as smart as you

00:52:33.100 think you are. Right. Because there are, you know, all of, there are millions, hundreds of millions of

00:52:39.640 very, very intelligent people who believe in God. There are millions of very, very intelligent people

00:52:43.820 who don't. So again, look at the epistemology and you may find, okay, we diverge. Okay. We're with

00:52:49.560 each other here. And then here's where we diverge. Right. It's this, it's this particular point where

00:52:54.660 that divergence happens. And, and this, this happens with many issues. You can do this

00:52:59.160 politically, religiously, whatever it is. Right. And that's why I think it's important to start

00:53:03.360 with the, it's important to start with the agreements. Um, I've used this before. So last

00:53:09.620 year, of course, the BLM thing got really hype in the middle of the year and people were talking

00:53:13.800 black lives matter, whatever. And you know, you had this whole, it breaks down into this black

00:53:17.400 lives matter versus all lives matter debate or whatever. And I'm like, look, guys, let's take

00:53:21.060 things up a level. Let's go to points of agreement. Do we all agree that the police

00:53:26.520 that we'd like, do we all agree that we'd like to see less unarmed, innocent people killed by the

00:53:33.500 police? Yeah. I think every rational person would say, yes, of course, we all agree. Okay. Do we all

00:53:38.600 agree that forget the, forget the movement and the, um, forget the movement and the organization.

00:53:45.180 Do we all agree that all black people's lives matter and are valuable? Yes. We all agree. Do we all

00:53:52.140 agree that all people's lives matter? Yeah, cool. We all, we all agree. Okay. Um, do we all agree

00:53:58.780 that racism and treating people badly or hurting people based on their skin color is, is bad and we

00:54:05.420 want to see less of it? Cool. We all agree. So actually already at that stage, you've already brought

00:54:11.020 the all lives matter crowd and the black lives matter together together. We're not all that

00:54:14.820 different. Oh, actually everyone agrees on the fundamental things here. Okay. So now instead

00:54:22.540 of like screaming mantras back at each other, let's look at potential solutions and you might find,

00:54:29.200 okay, this is where a divergence comes. Maybe that person, maybe this, okay, take, take what sparked

00:54:35.780 this whole thing, the, the George Floyd killing. Maybe this person specifically thinks that what

00:54:40.060 happened to George Floyd was somehow racially motivated, right? Or even if it's not George

00:54:46.540 Floyd, particularly they, they, this person thinks that there is, uh, a, a, a systemic or institutional

00:54:52.880 racism issue within the U S police, right? This person believes this person disagrees with that,

00:55:00.100 or maybe they disagree to the, to the degree, to the extent, right? Maybe they both agree that,

00:55:04.580 okay, racism was clearly a thing in the past. This person still thinks it's a massive problem.

00:55:09.460 This person thinks 2020, like it's not, you know, I don't, I don't think that's really the

00:55:14.140 motivation. Okay. But regardless, regardless, you can find solutions that they both agree with,

00:55:21.020 right? Maybe there's a, uh, something that is happens in the, uh, in the police, I don't know,

00:55:25.100 qualified immunity, vetting or training and everybody would say, yes, let's do more of that.

00:55:30.780 Yeah. Everyone, you, you, you might all be able to agree. You know what, actually the police,

00:55:34.460 if you're going to work in the police force and you're going to be going around your community

00:55:37.500 with a gun, you should have, I don't know how much training they get, but maybe it should be

00:55:41.580 doubled. Yeah. It's not significant. I can tell you that. Yeah. It's not that significant. So,

00:55:44.880 so we all agree, you know what, actually they should be trained more and maybe there should be

00:55:48.320 more psychological evaluation. So you're moving away from the whole racism point, right? You're just

00:55:53.240 like, okay, because of course, you know, more white people get killed by the cops than black people do.

00:55:56.800 Right. Which is an important, important statistic. And a lot of people don't even know that. So

00:56:00.220 if we're all agreeing, okay, police brutality is bad. Let's see what can be done to solve that. So

00:56:07.540 sure. Maybe there will be 20% of issues that aren't really resolved because people can't see

00:56:14.780 eye to eye on agree, but actually you, you've, you've now come away with 80% agreement on the core

00:56:21.420 things, right? The core things. Okay. We're going to leave this meeting and we're going to implement

00:56:26.240 this, all right, we're going to, we're going to offer more training for the police. We're going

00:56:30.620 to do more vetting, maybe some of the protections they have that allow them to kind of, you know, get

00:56:37.160 away with some stuff that they typically, maybe, maybe that's going to be changed. Okay. And we've now

00:56:41.800 got three, four or five policies, which we can institute and this will make a difference. It'll

00:56:46.960 save more black lives. It'll save more, it'll save more lives period. And we'll have less of this

00:56:51.760 issue. And we're not now at each other's throats screaming three letter slogans back at each

00:56:57.760 other for years on end. And we've actually got something out of this. We're not burning

00:57:01.400 down our communities. We're not towards, but again, which is good for everybody. It's good

00:57:04.840 for everybody. I think the problem here is generally there's a lot of problems, but I think one of the

00:57:08.640 general problems is that we have a third party that we're not addressing here in our scenario.

00:57:13.160 And that third party is the one that likes to poke the bear. Yes. And if that third party can

00:57:18.180 get you and me to fight instead of to cooperate, then their interests are served. I'm talking about

00:57:24.520 the media in particular. Yeah. It is a problem. It is a problem. But what the media does is they,

00:57:30.520 they play off people's emotions. Right. Right. And they often create narratives, which turn

00:57:37.200 neighbor against neighbor. And so what I often say is people need to stop falling for it.

00:57:43.120 This is nothing new. It's nothing new. I mean, propaganda has been going on for

00:57:47.740 hundreds and hundreds of years. And so a big, a big way to not, not fall into all of this stuff

00:57:56.180 is to simply be aware of it. Right. So if I watch the news, which is rare, but in the rare moments

00:58:03.000 that I do watch the news, I'm aware of, okay, this is the news I'm watching CNN or I'm watching Fox or

00:58:11.360 I'm watching that. Right. I know that they slant this way. Okay. And this one slants this way.

00:58:19.800 And there is some form of narrative or agenda here. Am I, am I watching like the straight down

00:58:25.480 the line news or am I listening to an opinion piece? Right. If you're listening to, uh, you know,

00:58:29.080 Rachel, Rachel Maddow or Sean Hannity or Tucker Carlson or, um, uh, Don Lemon, right. They're giving

00:58:35.600 their opinions. They're giving you some facts, but they're giving you opinions. So keep that in mind,

00:58:40.800 right? Don't just take it as gospel. In fact, if they both say something, if Don Lemon says something

00:58:46.240 and Tucker Carlson says it, you can probably take it as a fact, right? Well, I don't even think you

00:58:50.820 need to do that. We all know what a fact is. It does not, it doesn't even matter who's saying

00:58:55.960 or who isn't a fact is a fact. Everybody knows the definition of a fact. This is what happened X,

00:59:02.880 Y and Z. Now your perception of it is different, but we all know that you'd hope so. I don't know

00:59:09.820 if everybody does, man, we're living in an era where there's your truth and my truth. That's

00:59:13.760 his truth and her truth. It's true. So I don't know. Um, also the media, a lot of the bias isn't

00:59:20.840 in what they say. It's in what they don't say or how they say it. They can twist it, manipulate it.

00:59:25.960 But the most effective is in what is not said. How do you mean? What I mean is it's easier to pick

00:59:31.940 out bias based on what somebody says than what they don't say. Okay. So if I want to, okay.

00:59:42.420 So I could say on September 11, 2001, um, the twin towers fell due to gravity.

00:59:52.960 Am I lying? Uh, no, you're not lying. No. Well, I'm, I'm omission. I'm, I'm omitting something

01:00:01.080 quite, quite, quite important. Yes. Right. I mean, it's true that gravity is what pulled the

01:00:06.500 building down, but there's an omission there that's kind of important. Yes. Right. Exactly.

01:00:11.340 Right. If I say that, um, uh, 140,000 people in the UK, um, have died, um, their deaths have

01:00:21.620 been linked to COVID. There've been 140,000 COVID related deaths, right? That's true. That's

01:00:27.920 different from saying 140,000 people died of COVID directly, but you can do these little

01:00:32.700 slights of hand, right? You can admit things, whatever. And that's a lot harder to detect

01:00:36.740 than what somebody does say. So oftentimes in the media, the bias is in what they don't say.

01:00:45.280 Um, okay. Here's another example. The January 6th situation, the January 6th Capitol Hill,

01:00:51.900 Capitol Hill riots. Okay. They, they call that, uh, you know, they'll say it was a deadly

01:00:57.560 insurrection, dah, dah, dah. And they'll say six, maybe they think they say five or six

01:01:02.720 deaths were linked to it. Okay. Only one person, I believe. Ashley Babbitt, the woman who was

01:01:09.940 shot by the Capitol Hill police officer. She's the only person who was shot and killed directly

01:01:16.700 directly from that event. There were other people who was someone who had a stroke. I believe

01:01:20.680 there's some suicide after another person I think had a heart. Right. So if you're saying

01:01:25.960 six people, you're admitting six people died in relation, six deaths were linked to the Capitol

01:01:33.220 Hill riots. So therefore it was a deadly insurrection that paints a very, that, that, that, that's

01:01:37.040 a different, that suggests to somebody that people were in there with guns, having a shootout

01:01:41.480 and you know, six people got that. That's how you're, you're right. That's how you would

01:01:44.020 interpret that. That's how the brain works. Sure. Right. But actually they've omitted some

01:01:48.900 important details there. And by the time they've done that, the damage is kind of too late.

01:01:54.340 Yeah. It's, it's too late. You still now got people who just believe that a whole bunch

01:01:57.820 of people died and were killed or were beaten or whatever, as a result of that. And they're

01:02:01.960 now past the stage of looking at the facts. So that, that's what I mean by the, by the

01:02:07.120 omission and how well that can, Oh, here's another, Oh, let me tell you an amazing one.

01:02:12.860 Cause even I fell for this. Do you remember the Covington Catholic kids? Sure. Remember

01:02:17.820 that kid? Was it Nick Sandman and he was wearing the MAGA hat and there was the, um, Native

01:02:22.300 American guy and he was smiling and you saw that photo and a little clip of video and

01:02:27.640 it made it look like these young MAGA kids, these young MAGA white kids were gathering

01:02:33.520 around and intimidating, um, this, this, uh, Native American older, older gentleman.

01:02:41.780 You zoom out and you watch the longer footage. You see that they're there standing. He approaches

01:02:46.960 them beating his drum and they're just kind of, they're looking a little bit bewildered

01:02:51.960 as to what is going on. Right. So if you see that first clip and I saw it myself and I was

01:02:58.140 like, man, that does not look good. Like it looked like they just kind of ganged up on

01:03:00.920 this guy and they're there and it creates this visceral reaction. And then the narrative

01:03:05.940 kind of goes with that. Right. Oh man, look at these, look at these racist MAGA kids who

01:03:10.500 are right. The people put their little spin on it and whatever. And they don't tell you,

01:03:14.260 they didn't even approach the guy. A key came into them, blah, blah, blah. And then

01:03:17.960 more info comes out and you're like, Whoa, like that was totally different. The, the bias

01:03:25.560 was by omission. So, I mean, they also kind of lied when they said that they surrounded

01:03:29.760 him, but they, they, they, but I know what you're saying. Right. Or they'll take what

01:03:33.700 someone says and you know, they'll, they'll cut out this little segment of a Trump speech.

01:03:37.240 They'll cut out that little bit. They'll cut out that little bit. And you miss the wider

01:03:40.440 context. That's why I think I've, I've made a, I've attempted to anyways, and I haven't

01:03:45.980 always done this, but attempted to give myself like a 24 hour rule. You know, you see something

01:03:51.620 that gets you triggered or upset a little bit and you're like, okay, hope if it's news

01:03:56.140 today, it's still going to be news in 24 hours. So just wait. And that has saved me countless

01:04:01.520 times saying something dumb, saying something ignorant, making a commentary and opine on, on

01:04:08.060 things I have nothing, know nothing about. It's like just breathe back up. But that goes

01:04:13.340 back to your emotional thing, right? Emotional response versus back up, get out of the emotional

01:04:17.180 response, be more logical about it. Once more data and facts come out.

01:04:20.500 Exactly. And unfortunately with social media, people are responded for having like the first

01:04:26.020 hot take. So a new story comes out, right? You're rewarded. Remember Jussie Smollett?

01:04:31.060 Yep.

01:04:31.480 Right. You know, this thing happens and boom, you know, people are out there condemning. Oh my

01:04:35.080 gosh. Like that. I mean, as soon as I heard that story, I was like, wait, hold on. This

01:04:40.480 sounds sketch, right? Wait. So he went out to get a subway at three P three AM. He's in,

01:04:45.840 was it Chicago? I don't even know. He's cold. He had a sandwich. He didn't let go of the

01:04:49.840 sand guys like with MAGA hats and just holding a noose and bleach start calling him an N word

01:04:57.800 and threatening and put a noose around his night. And these guys knew exactly who he was because

01:05:06.260 they watched that TV show. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, this is sketch. I'm not saying, I'm not saying

01:05:10.940 anything about this one for sure. This sounds sketch, but instead you had people, you know,

01:05:15.120 coming out and did, you know, immediately. Cause by doing that, you get the likes, you get the

01:05:19.820 retweets, you get the social points. Totally. And there's often very little accountability for that,

01:05:26.640 like after the fact comes out, very few people will go put their hands up and say, you know what?

01:05:31.880 I was wrong. I messed up. I jumped to a conclusion. My bad, whatever. Now it's just,

01:05:37.420 just go quiet. Don't move on to the next thing. People will get excited in tomorrow about something

01:05:42.760 else. And so you just let them move on to something else. Exactly. And that's an issue, man. Um, I think

01:05:48.140 if everybody could just be more honest, then the whole world would be a much better place. So many

01:05:53.140 problems in our society are based on lies and lack of lack of honesty and lack of transparency. And

01:06:00.520 there's a difference between it's okay to be wrong, right? Sure. Being, being wrong is much more

01:06:06.880 morally and ethically acceptable than lying, right? There's a big difference there. If you know

01:06:14.060 something to be true and you put out a falsehood or you're hiding facts or whatever, that is much

01:06:21.520 more dishonorable than it's totally honorable. I totally respect people. There's two simple

01:06:27.160 phrases that automatically make me gain someone, make, make someone gain my respect. One of them

01:06:34.080 is, I don't know. And one of them is I was wrong. Right. And people who can never, ever, ever say

01:06:40.060 either of those two things that I can't trust someone like that. Right. Right. Because you,

01:06:47.420 you lack the humility and the honesty to correct yourself or acknowledge the fact that sometimes

01:06:53.120 you, you, you get things wrong and it doesn't matter what level this is. This could be, you know,

01:06:57.280 a politician who's the charge of a country. This could just be a, you know, an everyday person,

01:07:03.380 whatever it is. Right. I'm, I'm happy to be, because by definition, we always think that we are

01:07:08.620 right. Everybody in the world thinks they're right. If you didn't, you wouldn't hold your positions.

01:07:12.880 Right. You, you wouldn't think that you're wrong. No, if you think you're lying or manipulating people,

01:07:17.560 I guess, you know, but if you think you're wrong, then you change your mind. Exactly. So by definition,

01:07:21.640 we all think we're right about everything. And it takes a degree of humility to be able to be like,

01:07:27.760 okay, well, I'm right about some things. I must be wrong about other things. And I'm happy to be

01:07:33.580 corrected. The only way you know anything is because you were wrong before, right? You've got kids.

01:07:38.700 Yeah. The only way they learn is by being wrong, right? There was something that they thought or,

01:07:44.320 or didn't even think about. And you introduce something which is like, oh, okay. You learn

01:07:48.040 and you, you, you absorb that into your knowledge base in your brain. And then there may be a time

01:07:53.820 where there's something you believe to. And then you, Ooh, you're provided with the better arguments.

01:07:56.460 You're provided with new information. And so you readjust, you, you take that information and you,

01:08:02.300 you, this is how we learn. That's how you become a knowledgeable, wise person.

01:08:05.220 You keep updating, updating, updating every podcast you do. You're updating,

01:08:11.220 you're learning, you're developing, you're learning, you're developing. Yeah. Go back

01:08:14.200 and listen to Joe Rogan interviews from 10 years ago. Right. And listen to the ones now,

01:08:18.060 like the amount of through thousands of conversations, you know, he, he, he's updated his

01:08:24.600 software so many times by talking to so many knowledgeable people from all around that. Yeah,

01:08:30.420 sure. He's still got his opinions. He's still got his beliefs, but there's somewhere,

01:08:33.920 you know, he's changed or he's softened or he's become much more empathetic or whatever. And

01:08:39.280 that's how we all should be. I mean, if you believe all the same things that you did, uh,

01:08:43.840 last year, let alone five years ago or 10 years ago, then you're a stale, you're a stagnating.

01:08:50.160 Yeah. What have you been doing with the past five years? Yeah. You're a stagnating human being.

01:08:54.240 So you should always be updating every day. Your software should be updating slightly based on new

01:09:00.160 information, new conversations, different arguments. Um, and I'm someone who has a lot of

01:09:06.240 convictions and certain beliefs that I have, but I also update my software pretty rapidly. If someone

01:09:12.320 can, if there's something I've said on this podcast and someone's like, Oh, like that was just factually

01:09:16.160 wrong. Look, here's the, here's the data or here's the stats. And I'm like, Oh,

01:09:19.280 good point. Yeah. My bad. I was wrong. Right. Okay. Adjust update next time. I'm like,

01:09:23.200 okay, cool. That's what the information is. People make a bigger deal of it than they need

01:09:27.120 to. It's like, yeah, I was wrong. Uh, you know, and here's one, you've probably got this. People

01:09:31.360 say, well, you know, uh, two years ago I found a tweet and you said this, which is a counter to what

01:09:36.880 you're saying today. But yeah, that was two years ago. I have changed my opinion or I have changed the

01:09:43.600 way that I view things. It's so interesting to me that people will bring up something that you said in the

01:09:48.000 past and try to knock you on it because of what you said today. It's like, well, you should be

01:09:55.440 evolving. I like that phrase, updating your software. You should, you should be doing that.

01:10:00.540 Yeah. The things that you said before, and this actually goes back to what you were saying earlier.

01:10:04.260 And I did want to ask because you said, sometimes I'm just thinking out loud. Do you, I can definitely

01:10:10.660 see how that would be a, a good reflective moment, an opportunity for you to clear your thoughts.

01:10:17.220 But do you feel like you, uh, put your foot in your mouth more often than you should because

01:10:23.220 you do that? There's, you were talking about the trade-offs. So there's gotta be a trade-off

01:10:27.400 of thinking out loud and just putting it out there versus really pondering, reflecting,

01:10:34.220 thinking about it and then putting it out there. Yeah. I mean, I, like I said, I, I do a bit of both.

01:10:38.460 I do a bit of both. Right. And I think that how I put things out there, I, you know, I, I don't know,

01:10:46.140 like the internet makes it difficult to understand tone and motivation. But, um, I think that there's

01:10:53.660 a difference between the way I write something where it's like, okay, I've really, really thought

01:10:57.660 about this. And this is my, me presenting my position or my argument versus something where

01:11:02.460 I'm just like, Hmm, here's a thought. What do you, what do you guys sort of think of this?

01:11:07.280 Right. Yeah. That's a good, yeah. Yeah. So, so to me, I don't feel like I put my foot in my mouth

01:11:12.640 at all really, because those are two, those, those are, those are two different things. And,

01:11:19.860 um, I'm just, oftentimes I'm just trying to open up a conversation. I'm just trying to open up a

01:11:25.340 conversation. And sometimes the best way to do that is to, uh, make a statement rather than ask a

01:11:31.700 question. Sometimes the best way is to ask a question. Sometimes I'll put up a poll. Um,

01:11:36.160 cause I'm just contemplating an idea myself and I don't, I don't know. I'm just, Hey,

01:11:39.960 what do you guys think? Let me put this out to a couple hundred thousand people. Right. Right.

01:11:43.340 What do you guys think of this idea? Right. Does this make sense to you? Or does that,

01:11:46.540 or, and that, again, that's how we learn. And I like to be, I think it's something I'm blessed

01:11:52.040 with, with, with my audience is that I can be a node for everybody to learn in that sense.

01:11:58.860 Right. Hopefully by me doing that, then all of my followers and everyone involved in the

01:12:02.300 conversation there now, I've, I've created a forum. So sure. I brought the initial, uh, proposition to

01:12:10.800 the table, but now all these other thousands of people in different countries are now having this

01:12:16.500 discussion and they're updating their software and they're seeing different perspectives and

01:12:20.320 not all of my followers think the same at all. Right. I've got like a very diverse audience. So

01:12:24.920 I can put out somewhere, you know, someone finds this totally objectionable or they have this really

01:12:30.220 different perspective, someone else. And now, now they're having conversations. Sometimes I'm not

01:12:33.960 even involved. There's stuff that I tweeted three days ago. And right now as we're speaking,

01:12:38.160 people are, people are talking about it and they're discussing and backing forthing with each

01:12:42.300 other. I'm not even part of the conversation anymore, but they're still going. And I'm like,

01:12:45.920 cool. Awesome. Right. I got them talking. I got them thinking. I kept that doorway open of

01:12:53.380 communication. And again, hopefully, even if those people end up disagreeing, I see sometimes

01:12:58.620 some huge back and forth going on in my thing. And then sometimes it comes to a point where they're

01:13:03.400 like, you know what? Like sometimes it devolves into people insulting each other, but sometimes

01:13:07.880 it's like, you know what? I've never heard. I'll rereading the tweet. I'm not even in the

01:13:11.560 conversation. And I'll be like, you know what? Like, I've never heard that. I've never heard

01:13:14.640 your perspective before. Like, thanks for the civil conversation. Right. And then both of those

01:13:20.520 people walk away. Cool. They've slightly updated their software. Now they understand that different

01:13:26.120 perspective. And maybe they think that that person's not a monster. One interesting concept

01:13:31.620 I heard was that, I can't remember who said it was, but that everybody is a moral monster to someone

01:13:37.660 else. Hmm. Right. So whatever your belief system, political, religious, ideological, social,

01:13:45.400 there is somebody out there who thinks that you are, your views are reprehensible, right?

01:13:55.420 You believe in God, you're a Christian, that's reprehensible. You are, you know, you're pro-life,

01:14:02.360 you support guns. How, like, what? You're this, you're like, there's, and this is not to get into,

01:14:09.660 you know, what people would call, um, what's the term? Moral relativism. But it's interesting to,

01:14:17.300 to understand that, that there are, man, there, there's people out there who think that, you know,

01:14:22.060 you and I are, we're messing, we're some kind of messengers of hate or division. And we're right.

01:14:27.240 Like there's people who believe that, right? Yeah. Of course I think they're totally wrong.

01:14:31.300 Right. But there are people who like, I'm some person's least favorite Twitter account. Yeah.

01:14:36.000 There's people out there who, man, the fricking, the zoomy guy, man, like he's right here. Like

01:14:40.360 to them, I'm, yeah. You know, there's people who think that of Jordan Peterson. Right. There's

01:14:44.300 people who think that of Ben Shapiro, whoever it is, like this guy's like, you know, I've spoken to

01:14:48.600 some people who have, you know, I was speaking to someone, they're like, man, like I used to think Ben

01:14:53.160 Shapiro was the devil. Like the first, the first time I saw his content and he was just that out

01:14:57.680 there, like, you know, and then over time they were like, he's making some good points. Okay. Maybe,

01:15:03.240 maybe this, uh, little, you know, yarmulke wearing conservative Orthodox Jew isn't as bad as I thought

01:15:10.300 he was. Right. He's, he's making support. I don't, don't agree with him on everything,

01:15:13.960 but he's clearly not. Well, that would also be weird if you agreed with everybody on everything,

01:15:18.360 that'd be a very strange thing. Exactly. Um, and that's the truth, you know, ultimately,

01:15:23.160 even with people who you really, really strongly disagree with on some things. And this can be

01:15:30.920 hard to sort of accept because I think as human beings, we like, we like to have an enemy, just

01:15:37.280 like we'd like to have friends and we like to have allies. We sort of like to have an enemy. We like to

01:15:43.420 have a foil. So I think it makes you feel important. I think it gives you a sense of like fulfillment and

01:15:49.900 duty. Like, okay, there's my enemy. That's the battle I'm going to fight. And so like,

01:15:53.260 I actually have something meaningful to do. And oftentimes it's, it's like that person isn't

01:15:59.620 sure. They could be your opponent in certain ideological realms, but opponent doesn't mean

01:16:06.140 opponent or adversary to me is different from enemy. Oh, definitely. Right. I mean,

01:16:11.320 I think about that on the football field, like, yes, that other team there, that's your opponent,

01:16:15.520 but they're also cooperating with you because they're, you, you've agreed so much to this

01:16:21.000 concept of cooperation and bettering yourselves that you've decided voluntarily to bring a third

01:16:26.380 party in referees to ensure that you follow an agreed upon set of rules. You're cooperating with

01:16:33.120 each other to make each other better. And that's part of the value of sport, right? You learn how to

01:16:37.080 win gracefully, lose gracefully. You learn that your opponents and your rivals are not necessarily

01:16:41.560 mortal enemies, et cetera. You learn how to, how to handle things in a good and mature

01:16:48.440 way. And I think we need more of this in the social conversation. We need more of this in

01:16:54.480 politics, et cetera. Right. And, and also, especially in this age of social media and with people being

01:17:02.400 public figures is unless you know them personally, you often don't know what somebody is like. Like I've

01:17:09.800 often said that I bet 99% of people who, who believe that they don't like me, or maybe even

01:17:16.020 there's might be someone out there who thinks that they hate me. I can nearly guarantee that if we met

01:17:21.400 in real life, they'd like me. Of course I can nearly guarantee that. Right. And this is the case with

01:17:27.100 many other people. There are people out there who I'm like, man, like I kind of think this person

01:17:30.500 based off their personal public persona or maybe their Twitter. I'm like, man, this person is just like

01:17:35.180 an a-hole. Right. But who knows? Maybe they are. But also maybe if you met that person in the real

01:17:40.820 world, you'd actually be like, man, you know what? Like this guy's, this guy's, this guy's all right.

01:17:45.620 You know, like. That's what you're thinking about me, right? Ryan guy. Come here like, okay. He's all right.

01:17:51.120 He's all right. You know, I'll do his podcast. He's okay. But yeah, that's the reality. And a big reason

01:17:56.620 why this happens in social media is because the interaction happens backwards. If you meet people in

01:18:03.880 real life, you don't start with politics and religion and all of their deepest opinions and

01:18:11.460 thoughts. If you come across someone you don't follow on Twitter, you're often, the first thing

01:18:16.420 you often see is something that's very charged. Of course. And maybe in the wrong direction,

01:18:21.040 or you even look at their profile and you look at their bio and it's like, oh gosh, they've got the,

01:18:25.280 right. I'll be honest. Right. I have my own prejudices, right? If I look at someone's profile

01:18:28.840 and I see the freaking, uh, you know, hashtag BLM or rainbow flag pronouns, you know, democratic

01:18:37.600 socialist or whatever. I'm like, oh geez, like this person's going to be, you know, similarly,

01:18:41.520 if they see someone with an American flag and hashtag MAGA, um, you know, uh, Christian

01:18:47.140 conservative, whatever, they're like, oh geez, like this person's like a freaking demon. Right.

01:18:50.980 But actually if they met just, uh, you know, their kids, baseball practice or whatever,

01:18:56.460 and they're just talking, right. They're just talking, oh yeah, Jim's a good guy. Like he's

01:19:00.520 a good guy. Like they don't even know if he's a Republican or a Democrat. Well, do you know,

01:19:04.560 Jim has pronouns in his bio though? Exactly. Exactly. Is he vaccinated? Like who freaking knows?

01:19:12.460 People are talking about vaccinating. I'm like, bro, you don't even know who's,

01:19:15.260 you know, like every day you're walking around. If you live in the USA, every day you're walking

01:19:20.680 a past, past people who are, if you're in, especially in a big city, you're walking to

01:19:24.280 past people who are vaccinated, unvaccinated, different things, Democrats, Republicans,

01:19:29.640 independents, libertarians, Christians, Jews, Muslims, like you're constantly surrounded by all

01:19:34.640 these people. And in the real world, it's not a problem. It doesn't matter. People, people don't

01:19:39.100 even care. They barely notice. You'd have to get pretty deep in a conversation to even reach some of

01:19:44.160 these ideological split points. So if we could, I mean, this is just, I think this is just one of

01:19:51.880 the flaws of social media. And I don't think there's like an easy way around it, but if people

01:19:57.640 can constantly remember that, you know, you are dealing with a human being and people are more

01:20:02.480 nuanced than they appear online. People generally are also nicer in the real world than they are

01:20:07.320 online. There are more consequences to not being nice. Yes, there are. So it'll be one of the things

01:20:12.040 that you're doing. And just for the sake of time, I want to bring this up is that you've been

01:20:15.960 traveling all over the U S so I'd love for you to let the guys know, you know, where maybe some of

01:20:21.180 the places you're going to be. And then also guys, if you would just go connect with Zuby, wherever

01:20:24.680 Twitter is where he's most active. Um, that way you can figure out where he's going to be. And,

01:20:29.440 and you can take some of these conversations online, take them offline where they actually become

01:20:35.700 real purpose-driven and meaningful when you're doing a face-to-face. Yeah, most definitely. And I've been

01:20:40.280 trying to arrange meetups in the different cities I'm traveling to. So of course, right now I'm in

01:20:44.880 Maine, but I'm also, I don't know when this podcast comes out. Uh, this will be Tuesday of next week.

01:20:50.260 So what's that? That's like the sixth or seventh of September. Okay. So, so by the time this comes

01:20:54.600 out, I I'll be in New York. I'm going to DC, Maryland, Maui, Los Angeles, uh, potentially Vegas,

01:21:03.620 Nashville, Atlanta, and Raleigh, North Carolina. That's what I know so far. So if you're in any of those

01:21:08.540 cities, don't hesitate to reach out. Maybe I can get you to a meetup and you can find me on all

01:21:13.000 social media, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube at Zuby music. That's Z-U-B-Y music.

01:21:19.220 If you want to check out my new album, it's called word of Zuby. It's available on iTunes,

01:21:23.140 Spotify, everywhere else. Just search for my name. And you can also check out my podcast as well.

01:21:27.860 Real talk for Zuby. Just search for my name, Z-U-B-Y, and you will find me on any platform.

01:21:33.420 Right on, bro. I appreciate you.

01:21:34.600 No doubt.

01:21:34.840 I'm so glad this is round two. You know, you're on the podcast earlier and to be able to do it

01:21:38.640 face to face where you're here, spending time with the family. This is way better. So

01:21:42.360 I'm glad you come out. We made this happen.

01:21:44.180 I appreciate you, bro.

01:21:44.780 Appreciate it.

01:21:46.520 All right, you guys, there you go. My conversation with the one and only Zuby.

01:21:50.140 I'm sure you enjoyed that one as much as I did. And I'm sure there was a lot of

01:21:53.540 head shaking up and down, maybe side to side. If you didn't agree totally with everything that we

01:21:58.160 talked about, but you know, the thing that I really admire about what this man is doing is that

01:22:03.040 he's willing to share. He's willing to give his perspective. He's willing to talk about things

01:22:08.540 that make a lot of people uncomfortable with and that are not willing to talk about. And as we talked

01:22:15.180 about today, having these conversations and dialogue is so crucial in coming up with solutions

01:22:22.760 and a path forward to some of our most pressing concerns, whether it's race relations, critical

01:22:30.520 race theory, government mandates, loss of freedoms, the things that we talked about. It's important

01:22:36.740 that we continue to discuss these things in a reasonable, intelligent, respectful, empathetic way.

01:22:42.800 And I hope this conversation illustrated a little bit about how you might be able to do that in

01:22:48.540 your own life. So make sure you connect with myself, connect with Zuby. He's at Zuby music on

01:22:55.340 all of the social media platforms. You can connect with me at Ryan Mickler on all of the social media

01:23:00.340 platforms. Take a screenshot, leave a rating review, send him a message, let him know you heard him

01:23:05.100 on the order of man podcast. And we're going to continue to bring you great guests. The lineup of

01:23:10.460 men that we have in the next four weeks is part of my, my dream lineup. I've got a list of men I want

01:23:17.460 to talk with. And over the next four to five weeks, I've got four to five guys on there that

01:23:21.440 have been on that dream lineup list, that roster for a very, very long time for years now. And

01:23:26.380 we're finally starting to secure some of these conversations. So make sure you leave the ratings

01:23:30.360 and reviews, make sure you're sharing, tagging me, doing your part to grow this grassroots movement

01:23:35.960 of reclaiming and restoring masculinity. All right, guys, we will be back tomorrow for our ask me

01:23:41.800 anything, but until then go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

01:23:46.960 Thank you for listening to the order of man podcast. You're ready to take charge of your life

01:23:51.520 and be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at order of man.com.

Order of Man - September 07, 2021

ZUBY ｜ Common Sense in Uncommon Times

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