Pearl - June 15, 2025
Masculinity Under Attack: Men Losing the Battle for Marriage and Respect @ItsComplicatedChannel
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Summary
In this episode, I sit down with my good friend and long-time supporter, Dr. Aaron Horschig, to discuss his thoughts on masculinity and the way that society views it. We talk about the role of masculinity in society and how it affects our society. We also talk about why we see gay men as more oppressed than straight men and why straight men can't even be themselves without being a man.
Transcript
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when I've seen you call out the trad cons, usually, uh, you'll call it like, I love the,
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uh, the interview that you did with, with Michael Knowles. Uh, we've talked about, you know,
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marriage and it not being, you know, a good deal for men. And, um, in my last episode about the
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dowry, I actually used a clip of that, um, where he basically said, you know, that if you get a
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prenup, it invalidates the sacrament and all that other stuff. But, um, not only do we talk about,
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um, how the trad cons view marriage and, you know, they're not really doing enough as we would all
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like to see them kind of, you know, reform the laws and the family courts and remove the liabilities
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when it comes to, uh, marriage, but also just how they view masculinity, how, you know, being a man
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is all about, uh, protect, provide, sacrifice, serve, don't complain. Um, and so the way that
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masculinity is being defined, I think is a big problem. And, you know, one of the questions
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that I want to ask at some point, uh, coming up is, do you think men are smart enough to realize
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that masculinity is the first thing that anyone will attack when they want to control men?
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That's a real, I just did it. That's a really good question.
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Yeah. What do you think the answer is? Do you think men, do you think men, because when I'm,
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when I hear that question, my mind goes two ways. One way is I've seen men take some really,
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really bad deals in my lifetime, but I don't, I think social media also has opened the floodgates
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where women used to be a lot more deceptive and they can't be, um, like, you know, I see
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like on Tik TOK and stuff, women getting like ratioed when they tell like a abuse story or
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do you know what I mean? Like, and that just never used to happen like 10 years ago. So,
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uh, or, um, men, you know, realizing that they're the bailout guy where I don't like 10 years ago,
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they just kind of fell for it. Cause we didn't have all this media. Um, that's my initial thought,
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but I don't have an answer. So I'm curious what you think.
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Well, like, okay. If I had to answer my own question, I would say that, um, you know,
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so, so masculinity is almost like this, this prescripted idea that this identity that men
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have to follow, um, where, um, I guess you, um, like, okay, you know, man up and get married
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or, you know, okay. If you're, uh, if you don't do a, B and C, you're not a real man. So masculinity
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is also the first thing that's promoted when they want to control men. And I think that,
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um, you know, you see trad cons doing this, you even see some red pillars doing this.
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They will say things like, uh, you know, you know, Oh, you're, you, you've got really feminine
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energy right now, or you're a beta male or you're simp, or you're a weak man, or you're gay.
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First thing. And I think that the strongest men are the ones who don't fall, fall prey to that.
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Um, even following up in that, in that logic train, I was going to say, um, do you think
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it's true that, uh, our society is more willing to accept gay men than it will accept straight
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men who don't meet masculinity standards? Oh my gosh. That's such, I, yeah, I think you're
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right. Like they're more willing to accept gay men than, yeah. So then why do we see gay men
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as more oppressed than straight men when straight men can't even be themselves without following
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this masculine script? Have you done a video with that one? That's coming up. Okay. That
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was like, that is a great line of questioning. Wow. Um, no, cause you're totally right. Like
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people will shame. I mean, I even use the simple and I can't help it. Uh, yeah, but I mean,
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I think that, uh, it's, it's, it's all about, you know, that's just, you see it everywhere
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on social media. Women do it. Uh, trad cons do it. Some red pillars do it. It's like, it's
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like, this is what a real man is supposed to be. And I'm saying, well, why another line
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of questioning that I've used in, in a, in a past episode was when we talk about what
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empowers men and what empowers women, why is female empowerment all about liberation
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and choice while men's empowerment is all about masculinity, duty and sacrifice, which
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is actually the opposite of liberation and choice. How can what empowers one gender be
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the opposite of what empowers the other? So for women, it's more freedom. And for men,
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it's more duty and responsibility. And so what's going on here, you know?
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So what is your goal with your content? Do you have like, um, an end goal that you're
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hoping to achieve or, uh, I'm just kind of curious what, uh, like in five years you're
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I think that we need to have more honest conversations about what masculinity truly means,
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what, what it means to be a man, what the expectations are of women, what the expectations
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are of society. Um, I think that what's happening right now is, um, you know, are we going to
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accept a world of double standards or are we going to try to, you know, level the playing
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field and actually have equality? Now, what's happening is a lot of times people say, well,
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men and women can't be equal because we're not the same, but I don't think that's necessarily
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true because nobody in our society is truly the same, but we should have, you know, different
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races aren't the same, but we should all have equal rights under the law. We have equal
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justice. So I think that, you know, just to say that men and women, you know, should there
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be double standards just because we're not the same? I mean, I understand that, you know,
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we have different strengths and we have different weaknesses, but I think that, um, you know,
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to have these, these very strict roles is a very, uh, is a very kind of a strange idea
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in a society where the laws aren't the same. The technology is different. We're just where
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it's a completely different culture. And, you know, uh, I think that another question
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I wanted to ask you, actually, I'll, I'll, I'll throw it back at you. Um, if you had to
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choose, what would you rather see? Would you rather see women go back to the way they were
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before feminism, or would you rather see men liberated from their masculine role?
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I, I would rather, um, I think the only solution to feminism is more feminism.
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So I, so, so I only think like when women start getting the same sentences as men,
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that they might stop like hitting them, for example, right? When they actually start being
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put in jail or, you know, women with the right to vote when they start actually having consequences
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for what we vote for instead of being bailed out. Um, that's more what I would like to see. I'd
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like to see more fair laws where we're actually equal under the law. Okay. Well, for example,
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um, when we talk about, uh, false, uh, accusations, right? I've heard a lot of people,
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um, you know, suggest the idea that there should be an equal punishment for a false accusation
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as if, you know, you were convicted of that accusation, but obviously, yeah, we need to
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have more accountability, um, or, you know, equal accountability, I guess, for these things,
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because, you know, if, if, if women don't have skin in the game, there's no incentive. Correct. Yeah.
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So I think that, um, it, it comes down to the fact that, uh, I think, you know, I don't know if
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it's necessarily, you know, it's going to be a combination of asking more of women and maybe
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slightly less of men. And also women are having like, I'm one of 10 kids. We're having like one
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and a half. I don't know if that's enough to be a housewife. Well, like one kid, you could go like
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be a teacher or something. Well, I mean, is it, is it, I read a comment this morning where someone
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said, is it, is it surprising for women to expect women to want to have children when women are now
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expected to be in the workforce and providing for even for themselves? Well, yeah, but the average is
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1.5. Yeah. So to me, I don't, I mean, men still want to have kids, even though they have to work.
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Right. It's true. Yeah. So I don't, I just don't think women want to be mothers as much as we
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originally thought, because if we wanted to, we would have. So, so how do you respond then when
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people say that, you know, women naturally want to be that way? Like, in other words, if it was
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natural, why did it change? I don't think it was. And the reason, you know, it made me come to this
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conclusion. So it was, um, I couldn't believe how mad women got over abortion when I like,
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it was like, that was the most visceral when I would debate women where they would just get so
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angry. I'm like, why are you so angry over just a difference in opinion? Um, and I used to fight
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really hard because, um, my parents like adopted kids. And so pro-life was just something I kind of
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grew up with. Um, but then I just realized that the infant mortality rate is very similar to the
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abortion rate today. Wow. So that leads, I don't have proof or evidence of this, but just anecdotally
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arguing with women and seeing how much they just fight to what I would view as abort their children,
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kill their children. I think it's always been like this. I think it's like now that social media is
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here. We have like, we can see what women actually are. It's well, it's you disagree or agree? Well,
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I think that, uh, yeah, I mean, I can see that, but I also think that, um, as far as women wanting
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to be able to, um, it just comes down to the fact that women want to be able to have the choice to do
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that. I mean, obviously I think that, uh, uh, like I used to always kind of wonder about this. It's like,
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okay, well, the women who are having abortions, do we really want those women reproducing anyway and
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stuff? Cause they're probably just going to raise more, you know, male feminist children and stuff,
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I guess. So. I mean, I just, I just think it's useless to fight over it. Like they'll just,
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they'll die. Like I think the pro-life movement, like, yeah, they got Roe versus Wade, but if you
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think a plan B is an abortion, which they do, I mean, those are like through the roof. Yeah. So I just
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don't see it going anywhere in my lifetime, but it would be interesting to like, I think men,
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like we've talked about this, but our men should be able to opt out of child support if women can
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opt out of motherhood. Like, and that's what I mean. The financial abortion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And
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that's what I mean. I think the solution to feminism is more feminism. Like we asked to be free. Here you
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go. Well, the, one of the things that I was looking into was the idea of, uh, back in the seventies.
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I mean, I'm sure you've heard of Warren Farrell, for example, right? He was, uh, kind of like
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the father of, of, uh, this men's liberation movement, um, where basically, you know, in the
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seventies they were trying to, you know, liberate women, but then they were also trying to liberate
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men. There's actually a famous black and white photo on the internet, um, of a protest where it
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said, you know, let's share custody. And they wanted mandatory 50, 50 physical custody. And they
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also wanted, uh, men to be viewed as more than just success objects. Meanwhile, today we're promoting
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the very opposite of that. We're saying that, uh, men should be success objects. And so I
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think that, um, maybe revisiting that idea of maybe gender roles can be more fluid or more
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of a choice as opposed, as opposed to more of an expectation. Um, so what would that look
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like to you? So like, you know, relationship beginning to end, how would it go? Well, I mean,
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I think that, uh, um, you know, there are plenty of things that women are capable of that they're
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not doing just because they believe that that's a man's job, you know, like anything women don't
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want to do is automatically labeled masculinity, right? I mean, women, women are perfectly capable
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of approaching men for business, but they won't approach men for relationships. And it's crazy
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because if women approach men, they're far more likely to have success than if men approach women.
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Plus women don't like being approached by the men that they're, that they don't like. So we kind of,
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um, so you'd like to see women approach men. Oh, absolutely. I think that that would,
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that would definitely, um, but you know, a lot of people will say, Oh, but that, you know,
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the man is supposed to lead. And it's like, well, you know, the women control the dating market,
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but the men are somehow the leaders. And it's kind of a weird, you know,
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they kind of did that in Bumble. Like now that everything's digital, do you think that works?
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Of course not. Because what is, when a woman messaged you on Bumble, what's, what's her
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message? Hey, that's all they say to say, Hey, and nothing else. And then they still expect the
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man to kind of take over. In fact, I even asked a question about this similar. I said,
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okay, if men are expected to protect women because they're physically stronger,
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why can't women pay all the bills? Why are both duties assigned to the man? So there are plenty of,
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you know, I mean, cause we still have this, this idea, you know, his money is, is our money and,
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you know, her money is her money. And I'm saying, okay, well then what are women
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working for? You know what I mean? So there's plenty of things that women are capable of.
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And it's like, okay, well then step, step up and prove it. But we're always expecting the men to
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step up to delusional standards. Men have more, we're asking more of men than has ever been asked
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in history. And the other thing too, is women's money is way easier to get. It is far easier to
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make money as a woman because like at 22, you could go be like a pharmacist. Like there are girls
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from my school that went and made six figures right out of college as a pharmaceutical sales rep.
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How long would that take a guy to do? Well, women are getting, you know, they have female
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only scholarships. Women are getting, obviously there was all the DEI stuff. I don't know how
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that's changing now with the new administration. You also have the, you know, I mean, women,
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they always have a bailout. They could do OnlyFans if they want to. They, I mean, women, you know,
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female bartenders, female hostesses, you know, cocktail waitresses in Vegas. I mean,
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they make a lot of money just because they can use their looks to open a lot of doors.
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Is that a thing here? I've heard that they, there's like in Vegas, really hot, like broke
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guys that they're, that they just live off of these bottle girls. Is that a thing?
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Uh, I, I don't know. It's, it's, it's possible. I mean, I'm sure that you do interviews all
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the time. You'd never run into anything like that.
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Uh, not so much, but that would be a good question. Like maybe just kind of find out
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like, yeah, do you got some, uh, you know, some Chad living with you who, uh, I mean,
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I mean, look, I've heard some women saying, you know, Oh, you know, I've, I've taken care
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of men before, but I mean, are women going to take those men seriously for a relationship
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or are they just looking for an F boy? You know what I mean? So. Yeah. There was a guy
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I knew in London and that was his play is he went and got really jacked and he would
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just hit on like 32 year old lawyers and live for free in London. Well, that's the thing
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also. It's kind of like, yeah, he, he kind of reversed the system where he's like, I'm
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just going to go to the gym. It's easier than getting a job. Yeah. Well, well, well, well,
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it's funny too, because, uh, it was kind of like, I remember when I was at the, uh, the,
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uh, the AVN awards and I was interviewing the sex workers. Um, I asked a question about,
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uh, if a, uh, unwanted pregnancy happened during the shooting of a professional scene,
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because obviously sex work is filmed without condoms. Um, then, you know, is there anything
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that the man can do to avoid being held responsible for child support? And, um, this, uh, woman said
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to me, well, you know, if, if I get pregnant, then I'm definitely going after that man for
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child support. And I said, well, actually, since sex worker, female sex workers are getting
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paid more than male sex workers. Wouldn't you be the one responsible to pay child support?
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What'd she say? Um, actually, well, it's unfortunate because I didn't think of that at the time. I
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thought of that after the fact. So that's the thing. Sometimes, um, you know, follow-up questions
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will come a little bit late. Like, you know, I said, oh, I should have said this or should have
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said that. But, um, but I did kind of, uh, I don't know. It's just, I think that, um, even when
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I'm doing like street interviews, sometimes it's like so noisy. I mean, just like, this
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is one of the noisiest cities. I mean, I'm out on the strip, you know, on, you know, a
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Friday or Saturday night and you've got motorcycles and helicopters. And sometimes people are like
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right in front of your face and I can't hear what they're saying. And so there's times
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where I want to follow up or sometimes I think of, you know, a good follow-up that I
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couldn't say later. And so, you know, it's just, uh, you know, I'm an evolving creator
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just like you are and stuff. I'm learning new things, you know, as I grow, if you look at
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my earliest stuff, I'm thinking, oh, I could have said this. And, you know, so we're all
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learning. So, okay. So you'd like to see women approach men. Like what other masculine
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like duties would you say? Would you like men to be like? The idea that the idea that
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men are expected to be the sole providers or that, you know, or just this, this notion
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that, you know, I mean, you know, that men have to have all this money. I mean, who's advocating
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for the average man? Do we want to live in a society where only the top 10, 20%
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of men get all the women and then the bottom 80% of men are all just celibate? And then
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what's going to be the incentive for them to want to do anything? And then we're sitting
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here and we're saying, you know, oh, well, men are weak because they want to stay home
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and play video games. And it's like, well, what should they do? Go out and be in the
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social scene and get, you know, abused and get ripped off. So I think that what's happening
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is I almost believe that the male loneliness epidemic might be by design because I think
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that, you know, the whole idea that sex sells. And, um, I think kind of like everyone's
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exploiting men now. Everyone's exploiting that problem. I think that, um, I think that there
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are feminists exploiting those lonely men to try to sell them only fans. And there are
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trad cons exploiting those lonely men to try to sell them marriage, which is an unfair
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deal. And there are dating coaches trying to exploit those lonely men to sell them courses
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and self-improvement. So I guess how would that, I'm just trying to think of a world,
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like, do you think that's even possible where, um, men, like women are really going to approach
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men? Like, you know, I'm not, I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice. I'm just wondering if you
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think, or that like, um, yeah, go ahead. I think what happens is, is, uh, necessity is
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the mother of invention. People do what they have to do. Obviously I think that, that the,
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you know, the reason a lot of men simp is because they kind of have to because men, you know,
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you ever hear the expression, all men pay. It's like, it's like, even if you're not paying
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with your money, you pay with your money, energy, attention, and time you men have to earn it. So
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it's kind of like men just have to play the game and women are the ones who make the rules. And so
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what ends up happening is, um, I think that it just comes down to a question of who has the leverage
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right now, women control access to sex. Sex is the ultimate power and women know this and women
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abuse this. And so men are basically stuck, you know, I mean, men have a higher biological need
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for sex and women. I think men actually like sex is a need for, for most men. And so, um, I think
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that in order to kind of like level the playing field, I mean, I'm not necessarily saying like,
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you know, women have to approach men, but in other words, I believe that women are coming from an
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abundance mindset. Men are coming from a scarcity mindset. Of course, unless you're like that top,
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you know, 10% man who has women approaching you. And the whole idea of women approaching is kind
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of not that far fetched because a lot of these dating coaches want to sculpt men to become that
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super high value men that women chase. So women will chase the minority of men, but men are chasing
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the majority of women. So I think what has to happen is there has to be some kind of shift in,
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in leverage. And I think a big thing that would help that is men being given more access to more
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sexual access. In other words, I think what's happening right now is everyone's telling men
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step up and pay a higher price to the point where they're overpaying. I think what we need to focus
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on is I think we need to figure out ways to lower the price. Um, I've done several episodes on, I think
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that, that legalization of prostitution. I know it's a very, uh, controversial topic. Not a lot of
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people talk about it, but I think if prostitution was safe and regulated prostitution, I'm not talking
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about streetwalkers. I'm talking about if we had brothels and men could go get sex anytime they
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wanted. I think that women would have to be forced to bring more to the table because sex wouldn't be
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enough. Do you see that in Vegas? Cause isn't it semi-legal here? Um, not necessarily. It's legal in
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Pahrump, I believe, or in, uh, Nye County. Uh, it's like a, I think it's like a two hour drive away, but it's
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not, it's not convenient. It's not affordable. Most people can't afford, you know, a three to five
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hundred dollar, you know what I mean? But, um, what we have right now is almost worse than prostitution
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because I think men are paying for the opportunity to maybe get it, but they're not actually getting
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it. Um, and so I think, you know, I mean, I've even asked the question, you know, if Megan could get
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sex anytime they want, almost like go to a massage parlor or almost like we have dispensaries for, you know,
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um, I think that, that if that was available to men, I think they wouldn't, they wouldn't feel the
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need to, uh, to overpay. They would be more selective because they would, you know, and I
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think there'd be no reason to be with a woman other than love. And I could actually see that
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potentially happening. Could you? Well, I mean, why not in Vegas? I mean, yeah, makes the most sense
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here to start with, but, um, I don't know. I mean, it's, it's, it might be an unfortunate reality
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that we're headed towards, but I know that trad cons definitely wouldn't like that because it
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promotes degeneracy according to their, yeah. But if they cared about degeneracy,
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they would promote young marriage and they don't. Well, yeah. Like if they, if, cause like sex is a
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need and people are going to have sex with somebody. So if you're not promoting people to get married
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at, like, when does the sex drive start? Like, I don't even want to say it. Cause we're not like,
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it's kind of uncomfortable and we're on YouTube, but it's like, it's pretty young. So like, if we're
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having sex, like urges from the time you're 14, 15, 16 years old, like, you know, even at 22,
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most people aren't going to be virgins if they have the choice. Yeah. So I'm like, unless you're
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promoting a young merit, like young marriage, what are people going to do about their sex drives? I was
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just on a Christian show like five days ago. And I was, it just premiered today actually. And I was
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arguing with the guys and saying that sex was a need for men and that if Christians like cared
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about degeneracy, they would push young marriage like 18. Someone told me also that, uh, I think,
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um, you know, could that possibly even keep marriages together? I mean, it's, it's, someone said
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something about like, uh, I think it was in Japan where, where married men will go off and go see,
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you know, concubines or whatever it is, you know, kind of on the side and the wives just don't want
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to hear about it. Um, but I'm not sure. I mean, it's, you know, should men be stuck in a dead
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bedroom marriage? You know what I mean? Cause I mean, obviously when we talk about marriages,
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a lot of times men are hostages within their own marriage and, you know, women are paid to leave
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and men, you know, it's cheaper to keep her. Oh, I'm not saying that like guys, especially in this
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climate should get married at 18, but I'm saying if the conservatives cared about degeneracy,
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they'd push it. Right. Cause then that problem solved. Yeah. I, I kind of, uh, had this question
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about that. I said, why is it that anything feminists don't like, they label misogyny and
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anything that, uh, trad cons don't like, they label degeneracy. Oh, wow. That's a good question.
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That's a good question. So it's just two competing ideologies.