Pearl - August 02, 2025


Pearl RIPS APART Woke Female Athlete


Episode Stats

Length

44 minutes

Words per Minute

169.01758

Word Count

7,509

Sentence Count

491

Misogynist Sentences

93

Hate Speech Sentences

21


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Here is Catherine Bertrine, a cyclist, triathlete and CEO of the Homestretch Foundation,
00:00:05.980 which provides free housing to female professional athletes struggling with the gender pay gap.
00:00:11.580 Howard Megdall is joining us, a sports writer, commentator and author of the upcoming book
00:00:16.780 Becoming Caitlin Clark, a biography of the record-breaking WNBA player.
00:00:22.240 And rounding out our panel is Pearl Davis, an American YouTuber and a cultural and political commentator.
00:00:28.560 Welcome to all of you to CounterPoints.
00:00:31.140 Well, in 2024, the median salary for WNBA players was just 2% of their NBA counterparts.
00:00:40.340 And you could argue that the men's game simply makes more money, a lot more money.
00:00:46.240 But when you consider it in terms of percentages, NBA players are paid around 50% of the league's revenue,
00:00:53.760 while the women get only a touch over 9% of the revenue.
00:00:59.160 So, Catherine, let's start with you. Is that fair?
00:01:03.560 Oh, of course it's not fair.
00:01:05.500 In this modern day and age, we need to pay the women equally.
00:01:09.780 And, you know, I come from the world of professional cycling where we're struggling with the same gender pay gap.
00:01:15.420 And no matter what sport across the globe, the fact that women's sports are, and not even sports,
00:01:22.500 women across the world are being paid less than men.
00:01:25.540 It's time that we really, truly change this.
00:01:29.080 And not penny by penny or dollar by dollar, but to the significant point of being equal.
00:01:35.660 Pearl, what do you think?
00:01:38.420 What is the difference between profit and revenue?
00:01:41.420 Do you guys know it?
00:01:45.580 Okay.
00:01:46.140 Obviously, you've got a point to make, so go ahead.
00:01:48.820 No, I'm asking the question, because if you're going to make the claim that we need to have equal revenue,
00:01:54.760 okay, what is the difference?
00:01:56.980 Tell me.
00:01:57.820 Does she know?
00:01:58.520 Well, the difference is visibility and the fact that women aren't seen on the visible platforms.
00:02:05.860 That's actually not correct.
00:02:09.740 You don't know it?
00:02:11.420 No, I'm afraid you don't know it.
00:02:15.040 But no, but Pearl, to go back to the question that we posed,
00:02:19.400 is it fair that the women get a lesser percentage of the money that they make for the sport?
00:02:25.740 I don't know the answer to that question.
00:02:27.380 That's amazing to me.
00:02:29.320 Revenue is how much the league brings in.
00:02:32.300 Profit is how much it brings in minus expenses.
00:02:35.500 So I don't really care if you bring in $200 million, but you spend $300 million, then you're still losing money.
00:02:44.640 So revenue doesn't matter.
00:02:46.220 I'm going to jump in here and point out a couple of things, and I'm glad to be with all of you today.
00:02:51.040 First of all is that, obviously, it's not nearly as simple as profit versus revenue,
00:02:55.680 because you have, for instance, owners of WNBA teams who are having their assets grow exponentially.
00:03:03.700 So whether the profit or loss comes in at X amount of money, that doesn't take into account the fact that teams that were worth $10 million five years ago are now worth $400 or $500 million as well.
00:03:19.180 There's no shortage of investment that comes in.
00:03:21.900 But there is a larger problem here, and that is centering men around these questions rather than—
00:03:28.920 Oh, I let you speak.
00:03:30.220 I'm going to go ahead and finish.
00:03:32.100 Centering men around this instead of simply coming up with a basic answer to the question,
00:03:38.040 what is an appropriate amount of the total revenue that players should receive from a league,
00:03:44.820 whether it is a men's league, whether it is a women's league?
00:03:47.720 And then figuring out profit versus revenue, what money goes into expenses,
00:03:53.360 what money goes into investment in something that grows the lead's bottom line for its owners.
00:04:00.340 This is the gray area where things actually get determined.
00:04:03.940 And so, no, the world is not nearly as black and white as profit versus revenue.
00:04:09.080 I mean, I think it's pretty black and white that if you're spending more than you're making,
00:04:13.880 you can't really justify a pay increase.
00:04:16.100 I think it's pretty simple.
00:04:17.000 If you are investing in something that's worth more over time,
00:04:20.460 how is that not relevant to the overall revenue that's coming in?
00:04:24.740 If you have purchased a house that continues to go up in value and you own the house,
00:04:30.400 your ultimate bottom line, your assets are worth considerably more.
00:04:35.580 How is that not a part of the equation?
00:04:37.080 You're welcome to disagree, but pretty clearly a number of owners don't view it that way,
00:04:44.040 which is why three different WNBA owners in expansion just paid $250 million a piece to do it.
00:04:51.760 They didn't do that so they could go in and lose money.
00:04:54.460 I just, I don't think you can really compare it when the NBA brings in $11 billion a year
00:05:01.520 and we're losing $250 million.
00:05:04.400 We're making less money.
00:05:05.420 Nobody actually said they're losing $250 million and that's a made-up number,
00:05:10.120 but why are you comparing it to the NBA at all?
00:05:11.880 What I'm asking you is a different question.
00:05:13.800 What is it about the WNBA that means that players shouldn't receive 50% of revenue
00:05:20.060 if that's the percentage of revenue that NBA players and leads across the world make?
00:05:26.320 Because they're unprofitable.
00:05:30.400 Okay, what do you say to that, Caitlin?
00:05:33.400 Are they not profitable?
00:05:36.120 Sorry, Catherine, I apologize.
00:05:37.820 I apologize, Catherine.
00:05:38.700 If I had an employee that wanted more money, I'd ask, are you making me more money?
00:05:44.220 And if you're losing $250 million a year, $50 million, $10 million, whatever, whatever.
00:05:51.440 Where is losing $250 million?
00:05:53.240 That's a made-up number.
00:05:54.480 Nobody has said that.
00:05:57.740 Yeah, yeah, the WNBA is not losing money.
00:06:00.740 If anything, it's gaining more than it ever has.
00:06:03.080 So that doesn't make sense.
00:06:05.080 Revenue has gone up considerably year after year after year.
00:06:09.340 That's the open question, of course.
00:06:11.280 We know that a majority, if we're going to stick into the reality-based part of this,
00:06:15.540 we know the majority of WNBA teams earn money.
00:06:18.460 We know the fact that the WNBA just signed a new media rights deal.
00:06:23.560 For those at home who want to know how this really works, the media rights deals are the
00:06:29.900 engine financially that drive profitability or loss with Leeds for a long time.
00:06:35.160 And through 2025, the WNBA media rights deal, which was signed 10 years ago, did not allow
00:06:41.040 for that.
00:06:41.500 But a new media rights deal that values the work that's being done on ESPN and other partners
00:06:47.540 alone at $200 million rather than $33 million changes the numbers.
00:06:53.140 When we look at attendance going up, the revenue changes significantly.
00:06:57.720 And so you put all that together.
00:06:59.480 And ultimately, yes, the numbers are up considerably.
00:07:02.260 But yes, it's a made-up number.
00:07:05.360 I literally don't know where you got it from, but it has nothing to do with the moment.
00:07:10.060 I think you may have confused profitability with expansion fees.
00:07:15.120 Okay.
00:07:15.520 Well, we know that TV viewership...
00:07:17.260 I just explained to you the many ways that they are.
00:07:19.620 We know that TV viewership has gone up 30% in the past year.
00:07:26.660 Now, revenue for the WNBA has doubled since 2019.
00:07:34.420 So is...
00:07:36.380 Catherine, give us your interpretation of whether or not we are seeing a lack of interest in
00:07:46.080 women's sport, or is it that it just doesn't seem that there's fairness in the profits?
00:07:53.420 Oh, I absolutely agree.
00:07:55.400 While there's not yet fairness in the profit, we are absolutely seeing an uptick in the viewership
00:08:00.940 of women's sports.
00:08:02.540 And the most wonderful effect that Caitlin Clark has had is that it's not just been her presence
00:08:06.960 in basketball.
00:08:08.580 She has completely made people across the world pay attention to women in all sports.
00:08:14.660 And so we're seeing, you know, the wave of Caitlin in the most wonderful way.
00:08:19.580 And people are finally tuning in and following that whatever sport they might be following,
00:08:25.040 whether it's soccer or cycling or women's ice hockey, there is a Caitlin Clark in each sport
00:08:33.380 that is making this incredible move forward for all of us.
00:08:38.140 And we're thankful for what's happening within the WNBA.
00:08:42.400 And one of the things that we've always done in women's sports, especially in the last 10 to 15 years,
00:08:47.460 is to start speaking up about everything from equitable pay to equal opportunities.
00:08:54.640 You know, and that's one thing we can draw to light right now.
00:08:57.860 As we know, the women's Tour de France, known as Tour de France Femme Avec Zwift, is happening
00:09:03.740 as we speak.
00:09:05.080 And this is a race that has long been coming down the line for many of us who fought to
00:09:11.040 bring it to the airwaves and to the visibility, and not just that, but into existence.
00:09:17.840 And the fact that that is now happening and the cycling world is seeing a return of investment,
00:09:25.300 not just in women's cycling, but in all cycling, because more people are tuning in,
00:09:30.200 more people are able to finally say, it doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman who I'm watching
00:09:35.700 race or participate in sports.
00:09:38.100 All I want to do is see some great game being played.
00:09:41.760 And that's finally what's happening.
00:09:43.780 So when we talk about the return of investment and profits and losses, we have to look at
00:09:49.020 a much bigger picture and not just where this has come from, but where this is now and where
00:09:54.200 it's going.
00:09:56.720 What do you make of that, Howard?
00:09:58.520 The idea that is it fair pay for the same amount of effort that they put in?
00:10:05.580 Does this always need to be distilled down to profits or are we talking just good old
00:10:11.900 fashion gender exploitation?
00:10:13.780 Howard, can you hear us?
00:10:22.900 I think we may have an audio issue there with Howard.
00:10:25.780 So let me put that to you, Pearl.
00:10:27.340 What do you think?
00:10:28.000 What about the fair pay for the effort that they put in?
00:10:34.360 Women are very lucky in this society.
00:10:37.200 We are so lucky to even have women's sports at all.
00:10:41.000 I think we're incredibly lucky to be able to play sports, even though we operate at a loss.
00:10:49.800 And it's very frustrating when I hear women whining and crying about not getting paid enough.
00:10:54.400 When I have family members that are in the military, I have family members that do the hard jobs in society, and you guys are crying because you're not getting paid enough to dribble a basketball.
00:11:05.380 Nobody watches women's sports.
00:11:07.160 No one does.
00:11:07.720 I've played sports for 20 years.
00:11:09.820 That's insulting.
00:11:09.860 That is totally insulting.
00:11:12.180 The reason that women, the reason people are tuning in for Caitlin Clark is because of the drama.
00:11:19.260 So people kind of like to see the catfights on the court.
00:11:22.060 Nobody's tuning into the WNBA to watch a bunch of missed layups.
00:11:25.700 And I played basketball for 20 years, okay?
00:11:28.800 I played overseas, you know, but I have to be honest.
00:11:32.360 All the people complaining about equal pay, they were never at my games, ever.
00:11:36.660 So they just like to complain.
00:11:38.500 So it's possible there's...
00:11:39.500 You guys make money off of the money.
00:11:41.340 Is it possible there's some jealousy of where the league is now compared to where it was then?
00:11:45.900 Because people are not tuning in for the drama.
00:11:48.480 They're taking in for the ability to play basketball, which Caitlin demonstrates so beautifully that she is fully capable.
00:11:56.300 She's a fantastic ball player.
00:11:58.880 And so I'm...
00:11:59.740 Yes, she's good for a woman.
00:12:00.900 Oh, my gosh.
00:12:01.300 I keep accidentally going out of this.
00:12:02.420 So to think that...
00:12:03.740 Yeah, she's pretty incredible.
00:12:05.620 Yeah.
00:12:05.960 She's good for a woman.
00:12:07.220 Women are not whining.
00:12:09.580 Fighting for equal pay is not whining.
00:12:12.520 And we are...
00:12:13.600 Well, the world is lucky that there gets to be professional sports league.
00:12:18.300 For men's or for women's.
00:12:20.260 You know, either way, we're not...
00:12:23.420 Did you know there's a man in Alaska?
00:12:24.560 We're not just lucky.
00:12:25.660 We create our own love.
00:12:27.260 And women's sports have developed because of that.
00:12:29.300 There is a man in Alaska that dies so we can get crab meat.
00:12:36.040 Every boat that goes out, it's like three months long.
00:12:38.520 There's a guy that literally dies.
00:12:40.120 Those are the work conditions they go in.
00:12:42.100 And I never see them complain.
00:12:43.600 I never see them whine.
00:12:44.560 You know, I have cousins that do hard manual labor construction where they're, you know,
00:12:50.140 they're sacrificing their body to keep the society running.
00:12:54.320 And you guys are crying because what?
00:12:56.080 You're not getting paid enough to dribble a basketball?
00:12:58.800 Screw you.
00:12:59.680 Like, that's how I feel about it.
00:13:00.500 Well, first of all, nobody's crying.
00:13:01.880 Nobody's crying.
00:13:02.320 That's how I feel about it.
00:13:03.560 You guys are lucky to have a league to begin with.
00:13:06.620 You don't make money.
00:13:07.380 So if you want to get paid more, increase the profits, not the revenue, which you guys
00:13:12.800 didn't even know what the difference between the two was.
00:13:15.380 Like, and that's the challenge that I'm getting is you guys are crying and you've no idea how
00:13:20.620 entitled and privileged you are.
00:13:22.560 Whether we're talking about revenue, whether we're talking about profits, we know that TV
00:13:27.680 ratings are up for women's basketball 23% on last year.
00:13:31.620 Attendance is up 13% in 2025.
00:13:36.080 Ticket sales are up 26%.
00:13:38.780 And league-wide merchandise is up 450%.
00:13:44.600 So how can you say that no one's interested, Pearl?
00:13:48.760 OK, it goes up, but the viewership is still way lower than the men.
00:13:53.340 No one's saying it's not the same as the men, but why can't they get a percentage of their
00:13:58.160 merchandise sales even?
00:13:59.620 The women's basketball don't get a percentage of the sales of their merchandise the way that
00:14:04.380 men do.
00:14:05.420 Why should a basketball jersey be allowed to be sold with Caitlin Clark's name on it when
00:14:10.700 she doesn't get any money from that?
00:14:13.100 I'll give you an example.
00:14:14.540 Not only that.
00:14:15.200 So I played volleyball.
00:14:17.540 I played volleyball overseas.
00:14:20.740 And to be honest, their gyms were pretty much empty.
00:14:23.980 We had maybe like 10, 15, it was maybe it was just the parents, maybe boyfriends that
00:14:28.400 came, but we were pretty good.
00:14:30.340 We made it to the final four at those games.
00:14:33.280 Sure.
00:14:33.460 We might've had our viewership go up 23%, but it's like, OK, you had 20 people at the
00:14:39.480 games.
00:14:39.720 That's the equivalent of the WNBA at a mass scale.
00:14:42.280 Can you name five WNBA players?
00:14:45.800 But just because people might not be turning up for some sports, if they're turning up and
00:14:51.000 selling out stadiums for the WNBA, isn't that evidence that there is more?
00:14:57.300 It may be still a smaller amount, but more than there was in the past.
00:15:01.700 Well, how much does the stadium cost to rent?
00:15:06.160 How much did the trainers cost?
00:15:08.060 How much did the marketing cost?
00:15:09.560 It doesn't matter if your cost exceeds how much you're making.
00:15:13.820 And that's what's happening in the WNBA.
00:15:15.660 Their costs are higher than the revenue they're bringing in.
00:15:18.760 It doesn't matter if the revenue is going up if you're still losing money.
00:15:21.860 And the challenge is, you know, and you get this a lot with media people, is they've never
00:15:27.480 been, generally, they've never been in charge of a lot of people.
00:15:30.660 And I'm not saying you, but in general.
00:15:32.640 So it's like, you have to get the money from somewhere to pay everybody that's working at
00:15:39.360 these things.
00:15:40.560 And what keeps happening is they keep saying, pay me more, pay me more.
00:15:43.560 We'll make money.
00:15:44.600 Make money like the men.
00:15:45.700 You want equal pay?
00:15:46.980 Make the same amount of money.
00:15:48.660 And yet we've got lots of...
00:15:51.220 Go ahead, Catherine.
00:15:52.100 To say, yeah, I do have something to say about that.
00:15:54.820 But I first think it's very important that we bring in the most recent statistic, which
00:15:59.500 is just recently, within the past 24 hours, Caitlin Clark's rookie card just sold for $660,000,
00:16:09.820 which is 8.5 times her annual salary of $76,000.
00:16:14.960 So this is the most money ever made at a public auction for a woman athlete.
00:16:20.160 So despite the league pulling in, you know, and not only that, but, you know, the women's
00:16:27.340 league is pulling in more viewership than ever.
00:16:31.080 And this is so, so very important to keep current with what's really happened.
00:16:35.700 And what's really happening right now, because I know in the past, the viewership wasn't there
00:16:40.120 for so many women's sports, but we are changing that.
00:16:44.080 That's what's going on right now.
00:16:46.000 It's happening across the globe, especially with the different streaming visibility platforms we have.
00:16:51.000 Still no profit.
00:16:52.600 We have got Howard back.
00:16:54.480 Welcome back, Howard.
00:16:55.660 We had a technical glitch and we lost you there.
00:16:58.480 It's good to have you back.
00:16:59.700 We're going to move on to our next segment of the show.
00:17:04.620 We've been talking about fair pay.
00:17:07.600 Let's talk about media attention, because there is no doubt, while it may have been from a smaller
00:17:13.340 number than the men, audience figures and audience numbers for women's sport is increasing.
00:17:19.260 But yes, it still lags behind the numbers that the male leagues capture.
00:17:24.560 For example, if we turn our attentions away, maybe from basketball to women's football,
00:17:29.780 an estimated 3.4 million people attended the men's FIFA World Cup in 2022, while the women's
00:17:38.240 tournament drew in 2023, drew a crowd of a bit less than 2 million.
00:17:43.180 So there is still a disparity in the number of people who are willing to pay money and turn
00:17:47.960 up for women's games.
00:17:49.520 So, Howard, you're a sports commentator.
00:17:53.500 Why do women's sporting events, sporting tournaments, attract less attention, be that
00:17:58.800 on television or be it in person?
00:18:01.560 Well, look, I reject the premise of the question.
00:18:04.040 You can go back to a large number of examples where women's sports has received equal amount
00:18:09.760 of investment and promotion and see that the opposite is true.
00:18:13.800 Here in the United States, more than 26 million people watched the 2015 FIFA Women's
00:18:19.480 World Cup, which is the largest audience for a soccer game in this country, men's or women's.
00:18:25.380 You can go to the 2024 National Championship Games for college basketball and the women's
00:18:31.180 college basketball tournament with Caitlin Clark as a star, drew 18.9 million.
00:18:36.520 The men's drew 14.7 million.
00:18:38.980 But a thing that so commonly happens here is there is a confusion of inputs and outcomes.
00:18:46.540 And inputs are provided in an uneven way.
00:18:50.240 It leads to outcomes that are uneven, which are used to justify the next input.
00:18:54.800 And again and again, we see that happen in women's sports.
00:18:59.580 Pearl, do you disagree with that sentiment or agree?
00:19:03.820 Is it not the same investment?
00:19:06.540 Is it worthy of the same investment?
00:19:10.360 Women aren't as entertaining as men.
00:19:13.520 So when women start getting as entertaining as men, you'll see the viewership be close
00:19:18.760 to the same and you'll see more investment.
00:19:21.420 Yeah, we already do, actually.
00:19:22.680 In fact, we see them often exceed when there's even a rough equivalent of attention provided
00:19:29.140 at the front end between men and women.
00:19:30.980 But, I mean, your personal opinion, of course, has no bearing on the actual numbers as they
00:19:35.940 exist.
00:19:37.180 Catherine, what do you think?
00:19:39.680 Yeah, I agree with Howard on this 100%.
00:19:42.280 And I think it's also important that we talk about the visibility aspect.
00:19:46.260 And we are still in a time frame where when it comes to broadcasting women's sports on
00:19:52.800 network TV, women are given the backseat.
00:19:56.360 We are not always put in prime time.
00:19:58.940 Oh, my gosh, because your name is good.
00:20:01.400 But when we, excuse me, I'm still speaking.
00:20:03.020 Come on.
00:20:03.560 But when we have women.
00:20:04.780 Just let Catherine finish, Pearl, and then I'll come to you for a response.
00:20:07.960 Come on.
00:20:08.680 When women are given an equal seat at the table of decision-making as to when and where we're
00:20:14.280 seen, we will see a dynamic turn in visibility for the better.
00:20:19.280 And most of that is happening because people are sticking to tradition.
00:20:24.500 The men are getting prime spots, you know, frequently more often than women are when
00:20:28.580 we talk about prime time.
00:20:30.280 When that changes, you will see that dynamic shift.
00:20:34.320 And it will change everything.
00:20:36.040 It'll change profits.
00:20:37.320 It'll change everything.
00:20:39.280 But the good news is that is finally starting to happen.
00:20:42.000 We're not just being broadcast at 10 a.m. on a Sunday morning like we were in the past.
00:20:47.960 It's finally inching its way up the visibility.
00:20:50.700 But we still need to make dramatic change happen there.
00:20:54.460 And the flip side about it, and something that's so encouraging, is as we see it happen
00:20:59.320 more and more, those are driving further decisions.
00:21:02.260 Quite frankly, that's what we saw with Caitlin Clark.
00:21:04.280 Caitlin Clark happened to be a freshman the year that ESPN started broadcasting every single
00:21:10.260 NCAA Women's Tournament game.
00:21:12.200 The first time they finally decided to put a game on network television, ABC, here in
00:21:17.000 the United States of America, it drew 1.6 million people, helped drive decisions that led to
00:21:22.660 more and more visibility, that led to more and more people seeing it.
00:21:26.020 This is a very simple thing.
00:21:28.040 People cannot follow a sport if that...
00:21:32.300 It's not because she's that...
00:21:33.440 I'm sorry, I don't like interrupting everybody.
00:21:35.420 People, bottom line, need to have an opportunity to be able to see
00:21:40.140 these sports happen.
00:21:41.820 When they're able to see these sports happen, able to follow these sports, able to get more
00:21:45.780 media coverage for these sports, what we see at the end of the end is people are buying
00:21:49.960 in at a same, if not larger number than oftentimes on the men's equivalent.
00:21:56.440 But bottom line is a huge growth we're seeing throughout women's sports where they get these
00:22:01.420 opportunities to show what they can do.
00:22:04.200 And Pearl, you were saying that women just aren't as entertaining, but what do you make
00:22:10.260 to Howard's point that a hugely greater number of people tuned in to watch the women's football
00:22:17.720 team play their matches in the U.S. women's football team than any U.S. male football team?
00:22:24.400 I mean, it may happen for a game, but across the length of a season, the viewership's always
00:22:29.460 higher for the men, always.
00:22:32.060 What about the argument that if you don't value it, if it's not prioritized, people can't see it.
00:22:38.040 So if it's not prioritized on the screen, people can't value it.
00:22:42.460 You guys are in show business.
00:22:44.780 There will be small YouTube channels, tiny YouTube channels, where if they have an entertaining
00:22:49.920 clip or an entertaining segment, their whole life will change overnight.
00:22:54.680 If women's sports was that entertaining that people would want to watch it, the clips would
00:23:00.720 go viral and people would find a way to watch it.
00:23:03.020 But it's not entertaining.
00:23:04.500 And so what happens is, is whenever women take an L...
00:23:06.620 As somebody who's in this business, I can tell you how often the clips go viral.
00:23:08.580 Whenever women...
00:23:09.500 But that's why we're seeing the numbers.
00:23:12.420 Whenever women take an L in life, the world has to tell them they're not taking an L.
00:23:18.140 And so what happens in women's sports is we're not making money.
00:23:21.340 We're not really having the viewership the men are having.
00:23:23.480 And it's an L, right?
00:23:24.840 We're just not as entertaining.
00:23:26.420 Instead of the world being honest with us and saying, hey, you guys should be more entertaining
00:23:31.100 and do a better job instead of blaming the men, what it does is it says it's not your
00:23:35.780 fault because you don't have a seat at the table, gender pay gap, blah, blah, blah.
00:23:40.780 When really the burden of performance is on us to be entertaining and get the viewership.
00:23:45.320 Okay.
00:23:45.740 Howard, is it about being entertaining or is it about being professional?
00:23:50.040 I mean, this is a false choice.
00:23:52.000 Again, we've just been able to provide you a tremendous amount of data on audience, on
00:23:57.660 attendance, on revenue again and again.
00:24:00.080 And ultimately, it's going to be up to your audience to decide, right?
00:24:02.780 Do you believe the massive increase in audience?
00:24:05.820 Do you increase the attendance?
00:24:07.500 Do you see the increase in revenue?
00:24:09.340 Or do you just decide, well, Pearl said they're not entertaining, so I guess we've got to listen
00:24:13.220 to one random person.
00:24:14.360 I'm going to go with the proproners of the evidence first.
00:24:18.020 Well, I would say go into real life and actually come up with an illusion.
00:24:20.680 What happens is that you guys are nerds, right?
00:24:22.980 So a lot of nerds, what they want to do is be able to do.
00:24:24.340 Okay.
00:24:24.700 We don't need to resort to name calling, so let's keep the name calling out of it.
00:24:31.020 But Catherine, let me ask you this.
00:24:32.780 Catherine, to get a, just a moment, Pearl, just a moment.
00:24:38.480 Thanks, Pearl, and we'll throw a question to Catherine.
00:24:40.700 Don't believe what's in your real life.
00:24:42.800 Okay, Catherine, I'm curious about your opinions on this.
00:24:46.820 Pearl, just a moment.
00:24:48.240 People know what the WNBA is.
00:24:50.160 Thanks, Pearl.
00:24:50.900 Just a moment.
00:24:51.400 Thanks, and we'll come back to you for a response.
00:24:53.200 Catherine, in 2024, we had a wide-reaching media study
00:24:59.520 that found 15% of sports coverage highlighted women's sport.
00:25:05.120 If it was profitable, if it was something that broadcasters
00:25:09.300 were going to see a bottom line and a ratings boost from,
00:25:14.240 wouldn't they increase that percentage and show more?
00:25:18.140 Is that evidence that they're not investing in it either?
00:25:21.480 Huh? Maybe because the bottom line isn't there for them.
00:25:25.340 I agree, you know, and I'm saying this as a very proud nerd
00:25:30.220 because I do relate nerdism with people who are educated
00:25:33.940 on the subject they're speaking about.
00:25:35.620 So, I will put my nerdism for us and say that absolutely.
00:25:39.880 I totally agree that...
00:25:42.320 Just a moment, Pearl.
00:25:43.260 We'll let Catherine speak and then we'll bring it over to you.
00:25:46.240 Yeah.
00:25:46.740 I definitely think that when we...
00:25:50.820 when we talk about the visibility element
00:25:53.480 and if we're saying, well, women's sports are not as visible,
00:25:58.240 they're only at 15%, this or that,
00:26:00.400 it's really because we have to keep going back
00:26:02.520 to the factor of when the women are seen,
00:26:06.620 then the visibility and the audience will grow.
00:26:09.880 It can't happen any other way.
00:26:12.820 I can actually give a great example of this.
00:26:15.420 And again, I'm going to go back to the cycling world,
00:26:17.280 but it really transpires to a bigger picture here.
00:26:21.480 But years ago, 11 years ago, we made a documentary film
00:26:25.400 on women's cycling.
00:26:27.880 And believe it or not, back then, I was working for ESPN
00:26:30.760 and they turned down this idea of making a film on women's cycling,
00:26:35.140 citing, oh, but nobody watches women's cycling.
00:26:38.680 And I said, well, they don't watch it because there's no way to see it.
00:26:41.720 And then I stepped away and I made this documentary independently.
00:26:45.240 And when we crowdsourced to make this film happen,
00:26:48.320 it turned out that 16 different countries around the world
00:26:51.960 were part of our donor pool.
00:26:53.720 And it was an equal split between men and women
00:26:56.120 who donated to make this film happen.
00:26:58.520 And the donors were cycling fans.
00:27:00.520 These were people that just wanted to know more
00:27:02.840 and see more women's racing.
00:27:04.660 So long story short, what happened from that was that Half the Road,
00:27:09.400 the film that came out in 2014, that people thought,
00:27:12.880 oh, no one is going to watch.
00:27:14.400 It went on to be screened in 180 countries.
00:27:17.700 And we won a whole bunch of film festivals,
00:27:20.320 all because people wanted to see something
00:27:22.680 that they had not yet had the opportunity to see.
00:27:25.960 And that was women on the screen doing a sport that they loved.
00:27:30.080 So if we take this logic and apply it to every women's sport,
00:27:34.000 all we need is the visibility.
00:27:36.460 And the fans will fully support those who already exist.
00:27:40.260 And then it'll draw in the new fans
00:27:42.380 who don't even know a sport exists yet.
00:27:44.280 And then they become a lifelong fan.
00:27:45.860 And then the entire sport, both men's and women's side, will rise.
00:27:49.740 We've been able to see that happen in women's cycling.
00:27:52.140 And that's, again, just one sport.
00:27:54.640 We're seeing it happen in the WNBA.
00:27:57.320 And I think we need to also bring it back
00:27:59.040 to what Billie Jean King did for tennis.
00:28:01.780 No one was watching women's tennis before Billie Jean King
00:28:05.260 because nobody knew it existed.
00:28:07.240 And she, a player within the realms of tennis at the time,
00:28:13.480 made that change happen.
00:28:15.100 And we in women's cycling stood up
00:28:17.100 to make that change happen years ago.
00:28:19.340 And now women in basketball who are playing currently
00:28:22.780 are the change makers,
00:28:24.420 just as women's soccer did a few years ago.
00:28:27.160 And that's truly what it takes.
00:28:28.660 It takes people within the organization to stand up
00:28:32.100 and fight for what's right.
00:28:34.880 And it's, there is nothing but, you know,
00:28:37.520 a happy story to be had
00:28:39.900 when women are finally seen equally
00:28:43.280 across all visibility platforms.
00:28:45.200 Okay, can I go now?
00:28:49.060 Can I go?
00:28:49.760 Please.
00:28:51.320 So what happens is in media,
00:28:53.480 I'm going to finish the nerd point.
00:28:55.140 It's not really meant to be an insult.
00:28:56.940 Sorry if it comes off that way.
00:28:58.800 But my point is what happens in media
00:29:01.040 is a lot of people make money off of being victims, right?
00:29:03.900 So she's going to make money off of her documentary film
00:29:06.500 saying boo-hoo, we're not getting enough.
00:29:08.520 I'm held back because I'm a woman, blah, blah, blah.
00:29:11.020 And I'm right, here's my data.
00:29:13.240 And what I'm telling the people is don't believe me,
00:29:15.280 don't believe the people on the panel
00:29:16.740 because studies can be funded by anyone.
00:29:19.460 They can manipulate numbers
00:29:20.720 to not show you what's really going on.
00:29:22.580 But go into your real life and ask people,
00:29:25.060 do you watch the WNBA?
00:29:26.920 Name five WNBA players.
00:29:28.900 And what you're going to find,
00:29:30.120 because I've played sports for 20 years,
00:29:32.280 I played overseas, I played in college,
00:29:35.220 is we just don't have the attendance that the men do.
00:29:37.800 And it's very profitable to be a victim.
00:29:43.720 And so what they're going to do is say
00:29:45.040 that it's so hard to be a woman's sports
00:29:48.620 or play in women's sports.
00:29:49.840 And really, there's men out there
00:29:51.240 that do real hard jobs, right?
00:29:53.300 They're the ones paving the roads.
00:29:54.600 They're the ones doing manual labors.
00:29:56.020 And they don't get any airtime.
00:29:57.680 We get the airtime.
00:29:58.780 That's how much of a privileged class we are as women,
00:30:01.820 is we get the airtime for not making enough money
00:30:04.960 for dribbling a basketball in an unprofitable league.
00:30:09.220 But there are men that die to build the infrastructure
00:30:12.500 that allows them to play basketball, right?
00:30:16.500 It allows them to get the food that we get,
00:30:18.920 and they don't get any airtime.
00:30:21.020 The other thing that she said was that-
00:30:23.380 All right, just give us one moment on that point, Pearl.
00:30:25.360 Let me put that over to Catherine and Howard for a response.
00:30:29.240 First of all, I don't know where to begin.
00:30:34.080 The nonsense idea that as long as you ignore all the facts
00:30:37.800 and all the data, because anything to be manipulated,
00:30:40.560 we just need to focus on what one person, Pearl,
00:30:44.400 seems to think is reality, somebody who has argued publicly
00:30:47.960 that women shouldn't even have the right to vote.
00:30:49.900 I mean, it just sort of blows my mind.
00:30:52.100 Catherine, obviously, you are to be credited
00:30:54.120 for what you were able to do,
00:30:55.920 which is to put forward a compelling story
00:30:59.060 that ultimately found its audience and then some.
00:31:02.220 And this goes back to the larger basic point here,
00:31:05.220 which is that no one is arguing
00:31:07.960 that there should be some sort of privileged class involved here.
00:31:11.620 It should simply be that if we create a circumstance
00:31:14.880 by which men's sports and women's sports
00:31:18.260 have a parity of investment,
00:31:21.200 then what happens after that
00:31:23.240 is a true reflection of the marketplace.
00:31:25.960 When we have a marketplace in which decisions are made
00:31:29.580 based on retrograde ideas about women's sports
00:31:32.820 that ignore the huge audiences we see for women's sports
00:31:37.280 when they get equal opportunity,
00:31:40.100 well, then, of course, by definition,
00:31:42.000 the outcomes are going to be disproportionately geared toward the men.
00:31:46.740 And so, yeah, I'm a little suspect
00:31:49.540 and happily would be taking on the nerd idea
00:31:54.420 that we're going to accept data
00:31:56.620 and basic understanding of the world
00:31:59.600 as it operates over just a random retrograde person
00:32:03.920 who seems to shout the loudest, angriest opinions.
00:32:08.720 Yeah, I'm going to stick with the facts right, Catherine?
00:32:10.820 I don't probably listen to me.
00:32:12.020 I say listen to what you see in real life.
00:32:14.880 Okay, so...
00:32:15.740 Well, then we have a rare point of agreement
00:32:18.260 because the huge audiences we are seeing for the WNBA,
00:32:22.420 for instance, are reality,
00:32:25.020 and your random statements about it,
00:32:27.700 and no matter how many times you say it,
00:32:29.320 it's not true that people aren't watching,
00:32:32.400 are not borne out by reality.
00:32:34.280 But what do I have to go by
00:32:35.860 other than the ratings that we see on TV
00:32:38.800 and the fact that I keep covering games
00:32:40.980 that are sold out time after time?
00:32:43.260 I assume those people are made up in your adult life.
00:32:47.060 Is it profitable, yes or no?
00:32:50.160 Okay, Catherine, I'm going to give you a write-up reply
00:32:53.420 with regard to Pearl's comments about your documentary,
00:32:57.280 and then we'll continue on to our final segment.
00:32:58.980 Right, well, I've got to start with a laugh on this.
00:33:04.140 Nobody makes a documentary film to make money.
00:33:07.700 We make it because we truly love the subject that we're making about.
00:33:12.500 And the last thing it was was boo-hoo,
00:33:14.940 but actually very much a celebratory film.
00:33:18.400 So if you want to check out Half the Road
00:33:20.300 and make a judgment for yourself,
00:33:22.700 please do, either way.
00:33:24.380 But honestly, I have to say,
00:33:27.040 Pearl, I'm a little bit shocked by some of your thoughts,
00:33:30.320 but I'm also thankful for this view
00:33:34.280 that you're bringing to us
00:33:35.560 because it shows us how much harder
00:33:38.080 we need to fight for equity.
00:33:40.060 And I really think it's important
00:33:43.780 that we have this view
00:33:45.620 that not all of us are on the same page
00:33:47.760 when it comes to progress.
00:33:49.940 And sometimes that can hold development back.
00:33:53.560 And while I'm always hopeful
00:33:54.800 that all women are on the wavelength
00:33:58.380 of lifting one another up
00:34:00.520 and celebrating the movement of women's sports,
00:34:02.900 I know that there are times
00:34:04.160 where that is not always the case.
00:34:06.360 I feel like that's where we might be right now
00:34:08.380 with our different views.
00:34:09.680 I'll celebrate it when it's profitable.
00:34:11.380 I'll celebrate it.
00:34:13.300 There's equal results.
00:34:14.880 When you're profitable,
00:34:15.780 you get the same better viewership than the men.
00:34:19.080 When women's basketball brings in billions of dollars
00:34:22.580 like the men do.
00:34:24.000 Well, we may see that one day, actually.
00:34:27.240 We just want a handout.
00:34:28.240 We will.
00:34:28.520 We will see that.
00:34:29.980 We will see the day
00:34:31.380 when women's sports are bringing in billions of dollars.
00:34:35.520 And the only reason we're not right now
00:34:37.320 is because of equal viewership capabilities.
00:34:40.180 The rest is going to fall into place
00:34:42.640 because of those of us who are pushing for it.
00:34:44.920 And in the meantime, all right.
00:34:48.260 And the growth, by the way,
00:34:48.600 just to point out, the growth is undeniable.
00:34:50.820 The thing that we do know definitively
00:34:52.840 is that the numbers are going up
00:34:55.380 both in terms of money and in terms of audience.
00:34:58.740 And so we're continuing to see it going in that direction.
00:35:03.300 And it's very weird that the men
00:35:07.640 are somehow centered, Pearl, in your mind no matter what.
00:35:10.860 Instead of, oh, look, women's sports in and of itself,
00:35:14.420 instead of trying to find a way to denigrate it
00:35:16.680 by comparing it to something that has had worlds
00:35:20.140 of more investment and has been around for much longer,
00:35:23.740 women's sports continues to grow.
00:35:25.300 So why is that not a celebratory moment for you
00:35:29.160 as we see investment come to go along with it?
00:35:33.540 Actually, you...
00:35:34.440 Great question.
00:35:34.980 I'll tell you.
00:35:35.580 I'll tell you a great question.
00:35:37.020 So it's because it really irritates me
00:35:39.760 that women always want special treatment for everything.
00:35:44.100 They want handouts.
00:35:45.060 But you're not answering the question, Pearl.
00:35:47.220 None about special treatment.
00:35:48.900 Okay, Pearl, answer...
00:35:50.440 If you just answer Howard's question directly
00:35:52.700 and then we'll move on.
00:35:54.600 Yeah, why don't you answer the actual question
00:35:56.420 instead of making it about yourself?
00:35:58.540 Pearl?
00:35:59.020 If the NBA operated at a loss for 50 years
00:36:01.180 and it wouldn't exist.
00:36:04.020 But the women can operate at a loss...
00:36:05.060 But Howard's question was
00:36:06.080 why shouldn't their success be celebrated
00:36:08.180 for what they've achieved now?
00:36:10.860 Because it's not real success, it's subsidised.
00:36:13.180 If it was real success, it would be profitable.
00:36:15.940 I wouldn't have...
00:36:16.500 And the problem...
00:36:17.140 Well, I guess success is subjective.
00:36:21.580 But look, we've been talking about looking to the future.
00:36:23.880 So let me move on to our final segment
00:36:25.500 because you've all raised kind of points
00:36:27.860 about how this is possibly going to change
00:36:30.180 as we move forward,
00:36:31.740 hopefully for more success stories.
00:36:34.140 But how do we get there?
00:36:35.600 Because the simple fact is that women's sports,
00:36:39.360 the WNBA pay fight,
00:36:41.260 has generated so much attention
00:36:43.680 perhaps because it is a sign
00:36:46.460 that times are changing.
00:36:48.060 It's hit people's radars.
00:36:49.920 It's being discussed.
00:36:51.060 It's being commented on more widely.
00:36:54.180 But how do you put those words into action?
00:36:57.820 And how do you assess the difficulties
00:36:59.940 women's face to become professional athletes?
00:37:03.000 And to Howard's point,
00:37:04.320 how do you celebrate the successes they've achieved
00:37:07.460 and be able to build on that?
00:37:09.660 Catherine, let me ask you first
00:37:12.180 because you have a history working with women in this capacity.
00:37:18.260 Women have entered the workforce in all fields
00:37:20.940 on lower pay than men.
00:37:22.800 In sports specifically,
00:37:24.980 their leagues haven't been around as long as the men's leagues.
00:37:28.660 What other kind of barriers are they facing?
00:37:32.120 And is there the same energy put into helping them overcome those barriers
00:37:39.660 as there has been energy in other forms of gender inequality in the past?
00:37:46.120 Yeah, it's a great question
00:37:48.960 because we've seen a lot of this happen throughout women's sports
00:37:53.000 where something like a low salary means that a woman is going to...
00:38:00.280 A low salary in sport means a woman will also have to carry multiple part-time jobs
00:38:04.140 just to make ends meet on top of her professional career in sport.
00:38:08.700 We've definitely seen that happen in cycling.
00:38:10.560 And so one of the things that is happening
00:38:13.700 and also needs to keep happening
00:38:15.020 is pushing for a base salary that is a livable wage
00:38:21.020 and that is on par with the salary that's happening on the men's side of the sport.
00:38:25.760 And of course, as you can probably imagine,
00:38:27.480 I'm going to equate that to cycling,
00:38:29.400 where for many, many years,
00:38:32.280 the women were not deemed to have deserved a base salary.
00:38:35.980 That's straight from the mouth of the UCI president just 10 years ago.
00:38:40.640 And what was happening was that women who made it to the world tour level,
00:38:44.460 which is the highest level in cycling,
00:38:46.880 were on a pittance of a stipend that was not set to a decree of any sort of level.
00:38:54.340 So some athletes were making less than $10,000 trying to race professionally
00:38:59.000 and really having to carry jobs on top of that.
00:39:03.000 So we did lobby for a women's base salary,
00:39:05.360 which finally, not until 2020, went through.
00:39:07.640 And the women at the world tour level now have a base salary of €35,000.
00:39:15.720 That's not a lot of money.
00:39:17.360 We are trying very hard to push it up to 50 and then 100, etc., to take steps up.
00:39:23.420 But the fact of the matter is that we still have to push so hard
00:39:26.740 just to have equal footing for the same amount of work that the men are doing
00:39:31.600 and the same amount of races that the men are doing.
00:39:34.340 And I think that's very important that we understand no women in professional sports
00:39:39.680 are asking for a handout.
00:39:41.960 They are asking for equal wage compared to the equal hours
00:39:46.700 and the equal races and or games that they are playing.
00:39:50.340 And so these are the things that often have to be...
00:39:52.320 Just let Catherine finish, Pearl.
00:39:53.920 Oh, excuse me, I'm not here.
00:39:53.940 Oh, excuse me, I'm not here.
00:39:53.960 People out there.
00:39:54.720 Yeah.
00:39:55.000 Pearl, let Catherine finish, please.
00:39:57.340 Thank you.
00:39:58.320 These are often areas that have to be exposed,
00:40:00.620 where people who are listening to this think,
00:40:02.440 oh, wait, wait, they don't make this, they don't make that,
00:40:05.380 or they don't understand.
00:40:06.640 And then what happens is the women, you know,
00:40:08.660 really are just kind of, you know, part of tradition,
00:40:12.360 where because it's always been this way,
00:40:14.240 that women were only paid that,
00:40:15.800 that's how it continues until disruption occurs,
00:40:20.260 benevolent disruption,
00:40:21.300 like we are seeing in the WNBA right now
00:40:24.020 with those wonderful shirts that say, you know,
00:40:27.640 pay us what you owe us.
00:40:29.740 And now the media clings to this
00:40:32.920 and has a story to write about it.
00:40:35.260 But we didn't know that unless we heard from inside the sport
00:40:38.740 what was really happening.
00:40:40.720 So these are the things that will still have to happen
00:40:42.780 in all of women's sports until we're at a platform
00:40:45.960 where we can negotiate for equity.
00:40:48.680 And so, yeah, that's a long answer to your question.
00:40:51.520 And I think it's only half of the answer,
00:40:53.180 but I'll pause there.
00:40:55.560 Pearl, the fact that we are seeing change,
00:40:58.020 the fact that there is this agitation,
00:41:02.740 as we've seen in all other areas
00:41:06.080 where this agitation has happened in the past,
00:41:08.680 is it not inevitably heading in the right,
00:41:12.080 the same direction?
00:41:13.300 You might not think it's the right direction,
00:41:14.700 but surely women's sport is just going to continue to grow.
00:41:18.820 I think it'll grow, but still losing money.
00:41:24.820 So it'll just keep losing money every single year.
00:41:27.200 I have no problem with equality when you have equal outcomes.
00:41:30.480 But again, what women want is they don't want to do the work that men did.
00:41:34.940 They don't want the outcomes men have.
00:41:36.980 And they want to complain about,
00:41:39.760 are you going to berate her for interrupting me,
00:41:42.160 or is this just one-sided?
00:41:43.560 Well, you know.
00:41:45.140 So, so...
00:41:46.440 Keep going.
00:41:47.420 You know, my next question is,
00:41:48.960 do you know how much loggers make in the United States?
00:41:54.540 A logger makes $43,000 a year
00:41:57.200 so that you guys have the chair,
00:41:59.180 like the wood in the background,
00:42:00.640 the chairs that you're sitting on.
00:42:02.160 And we live this such privileged,
00:42:04.580 such a privileged life as women.
00:42:07.400 Crab fishermen.
00:42:08.640 Again, somebody dies to get us around.
00:42:10.140 But just to bring you back to the topic at hand, Pearl,
00:42:13.700 just because we're focusing on sport,
00:42:15.580 we're almost out of time.
00:42:17.080 I just want to know...
00:42:19.000 My point is,
00:42:21.900 there's no airtime for that.
00:42:24.360 It's all cry me a river,
00:42:25.920 even though we're not profitable,
00:42:27.580 pay me more money.
00:42:29.060 I think there's,
00:42:31.000 I'm not sure what evidence you have
00:42:33.220 that women don't want to put in the work.
00:42:36.040 Where do you get that statement from?
00:42:38.500 She doesn't.
00:42:39.220 And just to point out,
00:42:39.920 this is a woman who has advocated publicly
00:42:41.740 that women shouldn't have the right to vote.
00:42:43.780 Yeah, I'm like three on one here.
00:42:46.140 Online.
00:42:47.020 So, just...
00:42:48.460 Okay, Howard, go ahead.
00:42:49.880 You can kind of take all of that with a grain of salt.
00:42:52.180 This is a person who lives for,
00:42:54.720 clearly, attention over actual facts.
00:42:56.960 But, again, I just want to reiterate
00:42:58.580 and thank Catherine for what she's been able to do.
00:43:02.400 And it goes back to that
00:43:03.720 when you actually look at
00:43:05.140 the proper investment input
00:43:07.240 that goes into women's sports,
00:43:09.440 just to your actual question
00:43:10.760 and not a random thing about loggers,
00:43:13.400 that we've seen that progress.
00:43:15.880 The progress continues to grow.
00:43:18.300 Pearl, obviously, has made a brand around
00:43:20.360 pretending these things aren't happening.
00:43:22.660 But I'm excited and encouraged
00:43:25.040 by the fact that this movement is so enormous
00:43:27.560 that she hasn't been able to really break through.
00:43:30.780 Okay, Pearl.
00:43:31.320 I do feel very badly for her
00:43:32.760 because I doubt she ever will.
00:43:34.920 We are out of time.
00:43:36.520 I wish that we could continue for a little bit longer
00:43:38.420 because obviously it's a hot-button issue.
00:43:42.740 Everyone has a lot to say about it,
00:43:45.100 but we are out of time.
00:43:46.520 So we are unfortunately going to have to leave it there.
00:43:49.140 But I really do appreciate all of your contributions.
00:43:51.600 Thank you so much to our panel
00:43:53.360 joining us on CounterPoints to discuss this.
00:43:56.480 We have Catherine Bertrine,
00:43:58.800 the CEO of the Homestretch Foundation,
00:44:01.420 which provides free housing
00:44:02.620 for female professional athletes
00:44:04.260 struggling with the gender pay gap.
00:44:06.540 Howard Megdahl joining us,
00:44:08.320 a sports writer and author of the upcoming book,
00:44:11.120 Becoming Caitlin Clark
00:44:12.420 on that record-breaking WNBA player.
00:44:15.680 And rounding out our panel, Pearl Davis.
00:44:17.900 Thank you for being with us.
00:44:19.320 An American YouTuber and cultural commentator.
00:44:23.120 Thanks, everyone, for your contribution to CounterPoints.