Pearl - Pearl RIPS APART Woke Female Athlete

00:00:00.000 Here is Catherine Bertrine, a cyclist, triathlete and CEO of the Homestretch Foundation,

00:00:05.980 which provides free housing to female professional athletes struggling with the gender pay gap.

00:00:11.580 Howard Megdall is joining us, a sports writer, commentator and author of the upcoming book

00:00:16.780 Becoming Caitlin Clark, a biography of the record-breaking WNBA player.

00:00:22.240 And rounding out our panel is Pearl Davis, an American YouTuber and a cultural and political commentator.

00:00:28.560 Welcome to all of you to CounterPoints.

00:00:31.140 Well, in 2024, the median salary for WNBA players was just 2% of their NBA counterparts. 0.95

00:00:40.340 And you could argue that the men's game simply makes more money, a lot more money.

00:00:46.240 But when you consider it in terms of percentages, NBA players are paid around 50% of the league's revenue,

00:00:53.760 while the women get only a touch over 9% of the revenue.

00:00:59.160 So, Catherine, let's start with you. Is that fair?

00:01:03.560 Oh, of course it's not fair.

00:01:05.500 In this modern day and age, we need to pay the women equally. 1.00

00:01:09.780 And, you know, I come from the world of professional cycling where we're struggling with the same gender pay gap.

00:01:15.420 And no matter what sport across the globe, the fact that women's sports are, and not even sports, 1.00

00:01:22.500 women across the world are being paid less than men. 0.87

00:01:25.540 It's time that we really, truly change this.

00:01:29.080 And not penny by penny or dollar by dollar, but to the significant point of being equal.

00:01:35.660 Pearl, what do you think?

00:01:38.420 What is the difference between profit and revenue?

00:01:41.420 Do you guys know it?

00:01:45.580 Okay.

00:01:46.140 Obviously, you've got a point to make, so go ahead.

00:01:48.820 No, I'm asking the question, because if you're going to make the claim that we need to have equal revenue,

00:01:54.760 okay, what is the difference?

00:01:56.980 Tell me.

00:01:57.820 Does she know?

00:01:58.520 Well, the difference is visibility and the fact that women aren't seen on the visible platforms. 1.00

00:02:05.860 That's actually not correct.

00:02:09.740 You don't know it?

00:02:11.420 No, I'm afraid you don't know it.

00:02:15.040 But no, but Pearl, to go back to the question that we posed,

00:02:19.400 is it fair that the women get a lesser percentage of the money that they make for the sport? 1.00

00:02:25.740 I don't know the answer to that question.

00:02:27.380 That's amazing to me.

00:02:29.320 Revenue is how much the league brings in.

00:02:32.300 Profit is how much it brings in minus expenses.

00:02:35.500 So I don't really care if you bring in $200 million, but you spend $300 million, then you're still losing money.

00:02:44.640 So revenue doesn't matter.

00:02:46.220 I'm going to jump in here and point out a couple of things, and I'm glad to be with all of you today.

00:02:51.040 First of all is that, obviously, it's not nearly as simple as profit versus revenue,

00:02:55.680 because you have, for instance, owners of WNBA teams who are having their assets grow exponentially.

00:03:03.700 So whether the profit or loss comes in at X amount of money, that doesn't take into account the fact that teams that were worth $10 million five years ago are now worth $400 or $500 million as well.

00:03:19.180 There's no shortage of investment that comes in.

00:03:21.900 But there is a larger problem here, and that is centering men around these questions rather than—

00:03:28.920 Oh, I let you speak.

00:03:30.220 I'm going to go ahead and finish.

00:03:32.100 Centering men around this instead of simply coming up with a basic answer to the question,

00:03:38.040 what is an appropriate amount of the total revenue that players should receive from a league,

00:03:44.820 whether it is a men's league, whether it is a women's league?

00:03:47.720 And then figuring out profit versus revenue, what money goes into expenses,

00:03:53.360 what money goes into investment in something that grows the lead's bottom line for its owners.

00:04:00.340 This is the gray area where things actually get determined.

00:04:03.940 And so, no, the world is not nearly as black and white as profit versus revenue.

00:04:09.080 I mean, I think it's pretty black and white that if you're spending more than you're making,

00:04:13.880 you can't really justify a pay increase.

00:04:16.100 I think it's pretty simple.

00:04:17.000 If you are investing in something that's worth more over time,

00:04:20.460 how is that not relevant to the overall revenue that's coming in?

00:04:24.740 If you have purchased a house that continues to go up in value and you own the house,

00:04:30.400 your ultimate bottom line, your assets are worth considerably more.

00:04:35.580 How is that not a part of the equation?

00:04:37.080 You're welcome to disagree, but pretty clearly a number of owners don't view it that way,

00:04:44.040 which is why three different WNBA owners in expansion just paid $250 million a piece to do it. 1.00

00:04:51.760 They didn't do that so they could go in and lose money.

00:04:54.460 I just, I don't think you can really compare it when the NBA brings in $11 billion a year

00:05:01.520 and we're losing $250 million.

00:05:04.400 We're making less money.

00:05:05.420 Nobody actually said they're losing $250 million and that's a made-up number,

00:05:10.120 but why are you comparing it to the NBA at all?

00:05:11.880 What I'm asking you is a different question.

00:05:13.800 What is it about the WNBA that means that players shouldn't receive 50% of revenue 1.00

00:05:20.060 if that's the percentage of revenue that NBA players and leads across the world make?

00:05:26.320 Because they're unprofitable.

00:05:30.400 Okay, what do you say to that, Caitlin?

00:05:33.400 Are they not profitable?

00:05:36.120 Sorry, Catherine, I apologize.

00:05:37.820 I apologize, Catherine.

00:05:38.700 If I had an employee that wanted more money, I'd ask, are you making me more money?

00:05:44.220 And if you're losing $250 million a year, $50 million, $10 million, whatever, whatever.

00:05:51.440 Where is losing $250 million?

00:05:53.240 That's a made-up number.

00:05:54.480 Nobody has said that.

00:05:57.740 Yeah, yeah, the WNBA is not losing money. 1.00

00:06:00.740 If anything, it's gaining more than it ever has.

00:06:03.080 So that doesn't make sense.

00:06:05.080 Revenue has gone up considerably year after year after year.

00:06:09.340 That's the open question, of course.

00:06:11.280 We know that a majority, if we're going to stick into the reality-based part of this,

00:06:15.540 we know the majority of WNBA teams earn money. 1.00

00:06:18.460 We know the fact that the WNBA just signed a new media rights deal.

00:06:23.560 For those at home who want to know how this really works, the media rights deals are the

00:06:29.900 engine financially that drive profitability or loss with Leeds for a long time.

00:06:35.160 And through 2025, the WNBA media rights deal, which was signed 10 years ago, did not allow 1.00

00:06:41.040 for that.

00:06:41.500 But a new media rights deal that values the work that's being done on ESPN and other partners

00:06:47.540 alone at $200 million rather than $33 million changes the numbers.

00:06:53.140 When we look at attendance going up, the revenue changes significantly.

00:06:57.720 And so you put all that together.

00:06:59.480 And ultimately, yes, the numbers are up considerably.

00:07:02.260 But yes, it's a made-up number.

00:07:05.360 I literally don't know where you got it from, but it has nothing to do with the moment.

00:07:10.060 I think you may have confused profitability with expansion fees.

00:07:15.120 Okay.

00:07:15.520 Well, we know that TV viewership...

00:07:17.260 I just explained to you the many ways that they are.

00:07:19.620 We know that TV viewership has gone up 30% in the past year.

00:07:26.660 Now, revenue for the WNBA has doubled since 2019. 0.99

00:07:34.420 So is...

00:07:36.380 Catherine, give us your interpretation of whether or not we are seeing a lack of interest in

00:07:46.080 women's sport, or is it that it just doesn't seem that there's fairness in the profits? 1.00

00:07:53.420 Oh, I absolutely agree.

00:07:55.400 While there's not yet fairness in the profit, we are absolutely seeing an uptick in the viewership

00:08:00.940 of women's sports.

00:08:02.540 And the most wonderful effect that Caitlin Clark has had is that it's not just been her presence

00:08:06.960 in basketball.

00:08:08.580 She has completely made people across the world pay attention to women in all sports.

00:08:14.660 And so we're seeing, you know, the wave of Caitlin in the most wonderful way.

00:08:19.580 And people are finally tuning in and following that whatever sport they might be following,

00:08:25.040 whether it's soccer or cycling or women's ice hockey, there is a Caitlin Clark in each sport 0.98

00:08:33.380 that is making this incredible move forward for all of us.

00:08:38.140 And we're thankful for what's happening within the WNBA. 0.99

00:08:42.400 And one of the things that we've always done in women's sports, especially in the last 10 to 15 years,

00:08:47.460 is to start speaking up about everything from equitable pay to equal opportunities.

00:08:54.640 You know, and that's one thing we can draw to light right now.

00:08:57.860 As we know, the women's Tour de France, known as Tour de France Femme Avec Zwift, is happening

00:09:03.740 as we speak.

00:09:05.080 And this is a race that has long been coming down the line for many of us who fought to

00:09:11.040 bring it to the airwaves and to the visibility, and not just that, but into existence.

00:09:17.840 And the fact that that is now happening and the cycling world is seeing a return of investment,

00:09:25.300 not just in women's cycling, but in all cycling, because more people are tuning in,

00:09:30.200 more people are able to finally say, it doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman who I'm watching

00:09:35.700 race or participate in sports.

00:09:38.100 All I want to do is see some great game being played.

00:09:41.760 And that's finally what's happening.

00:09:43.780 So when we talk about the return of investment and profits and losses, we have to look at

00:09:49.020 a much bigger picture and not just where this has come from, but where this is now and where

00:09:54.200 it's going.

00:09:56.720 What do you make of that, Howard?

00:09:58.520 The idea that is it fair pay for the same amount of effort that they put in?

00:10:05.580 Does this always need to be distilled down to profits or are we talking just good old

00:10:11.900 fashion gender exploitation? 0.79

00:10:13.780 Howard, can you hear us?

00:10:22.900 I think we may have an audio issue there with Howard.

00:10:25.780 So let me put that to you, Pearl.

00:10:27.340 What do you think?

00:10:28.000 What about the fair pay for the effort that they put in?

00:10:34.360 Women are very lucky in this society. 0.99

00:10:37.200 We are so lucky to even have women's sports at all. 1.00

00:10:41.000 I think we're incredibly lucky to be able to play sports, even though we operate at a loss.

00:10:49.800 And it's very frustrating when I hear women whining and crying about not getting paid enough. 0.99

00:10:54.400 When I have family members that are in the military, I have family members that do the hard jobs in society, and you guys are crying because you're not getting paid enough to dribble a basketball.

00:11:05.380 Nobody watches women's sports. 1.00

00:11:07.160 No one does.

00:11:07.720 I've played sports for 20 years.

00:11:09.820 That's insulting.

00:11:09.860 That is totally insulting.

00:11:12.180 The reason that women, the reason people are tuning in for Caitlin Clark is because of the drama. 1.00

00:11:19.260 So people kind of like to see the catfights on the court.

00:11:22.060 Nobody's tuning into the WNBA to watch a bunch of missed layups.

00:11:25.700 And I played basketball for 20 years, okay?

00:11:28.800 I played overseas, you know, but I have to be honest.

00:11:32.360 All the people complaining about equal pay, they were never at my games, ever.

00:11:36.660 So they just like to complain.

00:11:38.500 So it's possible there's...

00:11:39.500 You guys make money off of the money.

00:11:41.340 Is it possible there's some jealousy of where the league is now compared to where it was then?

00:11:45.900 Because people are not tuning in for the drama.

00:11:48.480 They're taking in for the ability to play basketball, which Caitlin demonstrates so beautifully that she is fully capable.

00:11:56.300 She's a fantastic ball player. 1.00

00:11:58.880 And so I'm...

00:11:59.740 Yes, she's good for a woman. 1.00

00:12:00.900 Oh, my gosh.

00:12:01.300 I keep accidentally going out of this.

00:12:02.420 So to think that...

00:12:03.740 Yeah, she's pretty incredible.

00:12:05.620 Yeah.

00:12:05.960 She's good for a woman. 1.00

00:12:07.220 Women are not whining. 1.00

00:12:09.580 Fighting for equal pay is not whining.

00:12:12.520 And we are...

00:12:13.600 Well, the world is lucky that there gets to be professional sports league.

00:12:18.300 For men's or for women's. 0.68

00:12:20.260 You know, either way, we're not...

00:12:23.420 Did you know there's a man in Alaska?

00:12:24.560 We're not just lucky.

00:12:25.660 We create our own love.

00:12:27.260 And women's sports have developed because of that. 1.00

00:12:29.300 There is a man in Alaska that dies so we can get crab meat.

00:12:36.040 Every boat that goes out, it's like three months long.

00:12:38.520 There's a guy that literally dies.

00:12:40.120 Those are the work conditions they go in.

00:12:42.100 And I never see them complain.

00:12:43.600 I never see them whine.

00:12:44.560 You know, I have cousins that do hard manual labor construction where they're, you know,

00:12:50.140 they're sacrificing their body to keep the society running.

00:12:54.320 And you guys are crying because what?

00:12:56.080 You're not getting paid enough to dribble a basketball? 0.99

00:12:58.800 Screw you. 0.99

00:12:59.680 Like, that's how I feel about it. 0.99

00:13:00.500 Well, first of all, nobody's crying.

00:13:01.880 Nobody's crying.

00:13:02.320 That's how I feel about it.

00:13:03.560 You guys are lucky to have a league to begin with.

00:13:06.620 You don't make money.

00:13:07.380 So if you want to get paid more, increase the profits, not the revenue, which you guys

00:13:12.800 didn't even know what the difference between the two was.

00:13:15.380 Like, and that's the challenge that I'm getting is you guys are crying and you've no idea how

00:13:20.620 entitled and privileged you are.

00:13:22.560 Whether we're talking about revenue, whether we're talking about profits, we know that TV

00:13:27.680 ratings are up for women's basketball 23% on last year.

00:13:31.620 Attendance is up 13% in 2025.

00:13:36.080 Ticket sales are up 26%.

00:13:38.780 And league-wide merchandise is up 450%.

00:13:44.600 So how can you say that no one's interested, Pearl?

00:13:48.760 OK, it goes up, but the viewership is still way lower than the men.

00:13:53.340 No one's saying it's not the same as the men, but why can't they get a percentage of their 0.50

00:13:58.160 merchandise sales even?

00:13:59.620 The women's basketball don't get a percentage of the sales of their merchandise the way that 0.90

00:14:04.380 men do.

00:14:05.420 Why should a basketball jersey be allowed to be sold with Caitlin Clark's name on it when 1.00

00:14:10.700 she doesn't get any money from that? 1.00

00:14:13.100 I'll give you an example.

00:14:14.540 Not only that.

00:14:15.200 So I played volleyball.

00:14:17.540 I played volleyball overseas.

00:14:20.740 And to be honest, their gyms were pretty much empty.

00:14:23.980 We had maybe like 10, 15, it was maybe it was just the parents, maybe boyfriends that

00:14:28.400 came, but we were pretty good.

00:14:30.340 We made it to the final four at those games.

00:14:33.280 Sure.

00:14:33.460 We might've had our viewership go up 23%, but it's like, OK, you had 20 people at the

00:14:39.480 games.

00:14:39.720 That's the equivalent of the WNBA at a mass scale. 1.00

00:14:42.280 Can you name five WNBA players?

00:14:45.800 But just because people might not be turning up for some sports, if they're turning up and

00:14:51.000 selling out stadiums for the WNBA, isn't that evidence that there is more?

00:14:57.300 It may be still a smaller amount, but more than there was in the past.

00:15:01.700 Well, how much does the stadium cost to rent?

00:15:06.160 How much did the trainers cost?

00:15:08.060 How much did the marketing cost?

00:15:09.560 It doesn't matter if your cost exceeds how much you're making.

00:15:13.820 And that's what's happening in the WNBA. 1.00

00:15:15.660 Their costs are higher than the revenue they're bringing in.

00:15:18.760 It doesn't matter if the revenue is going up if you're still losing money.

00:15:21.860 And the challenge is, you know, and you get this a lot with media people, is they've never

00:15:27.480 been, generally, they've never been in charge of a lot of people.

00:15:30.660 And I'm not saying you, but in general.

00:15:32.640 So it's like, you have to get the money from somewhere to pay everybody that's working at

00:15:39.360 these things.

00:15:40.560 And what keeps happening is they keep saying, pay me more, pay me more.

00:15:43.560 We'll make money.

00:15:44.600 Make money like the men.

00:15:45.700 You want equal pay? 0.98

00:15:46.980 Make the same amount of money.

00:15:48.660 And yet we've got lots of...

00:15:51.220 Go ahead, Catherine.

00:15:52.100 To say, yeah, I do have something to say about that.

00:15:54.820 But I first think it's very important that we bring in the most recent statistic, which

00:15:59.500 is just recently, within the past 24 hours, Caitlin Clark's rookie card just sold for $660,000,

00:16:09.820 which is 8.5 times her annual salary of $76,000.

00:16:14.960 So this is the most money ever made at a public auction for a woman athlete.

00:16:20.160 So despite the league pulling in, you know, and not only that, but, you know, the women's

00:16:27.340 league is pulling in more viewership than ever.

00:16:31.080 And this is so, so very important to keep current with what's really happened.

00:16:35.700 And what's really happening right now, because I know in the past, the viewership wasn't there

00:16:40.120 for so many women's sports, but we are changing that. 0.99

00:16:44.080 That's what's going on right now.

00:16:46.000 It's happening across the globe, especially with the different streaming visibility platforms we have.

00:16:51.000 Still no profit.

00:16:52.600 We have got Howard back.

00:16:54.480 Welcome back, Howard.

00:16:55.660 We had a technical glitch and we lost you there.

00:16:58.480 It's good to have you back.

00:16:59.700 We're going to move on to our next segment of the show.

00:17:04.620 We've been talking about fair pay.

00:17:07.600 Let's talk about media attention, because there is no doubt, while it may have been from a smaller

00:17:13.340 number than the men, audience figures and audience numbers for women's sport is increasing.

00:17:19.260 But yes, it still lags behind the numbers that the male leagues capture.

00:17:24.560 For example, if we turn our attentions away, maybe from basketball to women's football,

00:17:29.780 an estimated 3.4 million people attended the men's FIFA World Cup in 2022, while the women's

00:17:38.240 tournament drew in 2023, drew a crowd of a bit less than 2 million.

00:17:43.180 So there is still a disparity in the number of people who are willing to pay money and turn

00:17:47.960 up for women's games.

00:17:49.520 So, Howard, you're a sports commentator.

00:17:53.500 Why do women's sporting events, sporting tournaments, attract less attention, be that 1.00

00:17:58.800 on television or be it in person?

00:18:01.560 Well, look, I reject the premise of the question.

00:18:04.040 You can go back to a large number of examples where women's sports has received equal amount

00:18:09.760 of investment and promotion and see that the opposite is true.

00:18:13.800 Here in the United States, more than 26 million people watched the 2015 FIFA Women's

00:18:19.480 World Cup, which is the largest audience for a soccer game in this country, men's or women's.

00:18:25.380 You can go to the 2024 National Championship Games for college basketball and the women's

00:18:31.180 college basketball tournament with Caitlin Clark as a star, drew 18.9 million.

00:18:36.520 The men's drew 14.7 million.

00:18:38.980 But a thing that so commonly happens here is there is a confusion of inputs and outcomes.

00:18:46.540 And inputs are provided in an uneven way.

00:18:50.240 It leads to outcomes that are uneven, which are used to justify the next input.

00:18:54.800 And again and again, we see that happen in women's sports. 1.00

00:18:59.580 Pearl, do you disagree with that sentiment or agree?

00:19:03.820 Is it not the same investment?

00:19:06.540 Is it worthy of the same investment? 0.96

00:19:10.360 Women aren't as entertaining as men. 1.00

00:19:13.520 So when women start getting as entertaining as men, you'll see the viewership be close 1.00

00:19:18.760 to the same and you'll see more investment.

00:19:21.420 Yeah, we already do, actually.

00:19:22.680 In fact, we see them often exceed when there's even a rough equivalent of attention provided

00:19:29.140 at the front end between men and women.

00:19:30.980 But, I mean, your personal opinion, of course, has no bearing on the actual numbers as they

00:19:35.940 exist.

00:19:37.180 Catherine, what do you think?

00:19:39.680 Yeah, I agree with Howard on this 100%.

00:19:42.280 And I think it's also important that we talk about the visibility aspect.

00:19:46.260 And we are still in a time frame where when it comes to broadcasting women's sports on 0.94

00:19:52.800 network TV, women are given the backseat. 1.00

00:19:56.360 We are not always put in prime time.

00:19:58.940 Oh, my gosh, because your name is good.

00:20:01.400 But when we, excuse me, I'm still speaking.

00:20:03.020 Come on.

00:20:03.560 But when we have women. 0.91

00:20:04.780 Just let Catherine finish, Pearl, and then I'll come to you for a response.

00:20:07.960 Come on.

00:20:08.680 When women are given an equal seat at the table of decision-making as to when and where we're 1.00

00:20:14.280 seen, we will see a dynamic turn in visibility for the better.

00:20:19.280 And most of that is happening because people are sticking to tradition.

00:20:24.500 The men are getting prime spots, you know, frequently more often than women are when

00:20:28.580 we talk about prime time.

00:20:30.280 When that changes, you will see that dynamic shift.

00:20:34.320 And it will change everything.

00:20:36.040 It'll change profits.

00:20:37.320 It'll change everything.

00:20:39.280 But the good news is that is finally starting to happen.

00:20:42.000 We're not just being broadcast at 10 a.m. on a Sunday morning like we were in the past.

00:20:47.960 It's finally inching its way up the visibility.

00:20:50.700 But we still need to make dramatic change happen there.

00:20:54.460 And the flip side about it, and something that's so encouraging, is as we see it happen

00:20:59.320 more and more, those are driving further decisions.

00:21:02.260 Quite frankly, that's what we saw with Caitlin Clark.

00:21:04.280 Caitlin Clark happened to be a freshman the year that ESPN started broadcasting every single

00:21:10.260 NCAA Women's Tournament game.

00:21:12.200 The first time they finally decided to put a game on network television, ABC, here in

00:21:17.000 the United States of America, it drew 1.6 million people, helped drive decisions that led to

00:21:22.660 more and more visibility, that led to more and more people seeing it.

00:21:26.020 This is a very simple thing.

00:21:28.040 People cannot follow a sport if that...

00:21:32.300 It's not because she's that... 1.00

00:21:33.440 I'm sorry, I don't like interrupting everybody.

00:21:35.420 People, bottom line, need to have an opportunity to be able to see

00:21:40.140 these sports happen.

00:21:41.820 When they're able to see these sports happen, able to follow these sports, able to get more

00:21:45.780 media coverage for these sports, what we see at the end of the end is people are buying

00:21:49.960 in at a same, if not larger number than oftentimes on the men's equivalent.

00:21:56.440 But bottom line is a huge growth we're seeing throughout women's sports where they get these 0.98

00:22:01.420 opportunities to show what they can do.

00:22:04.200 And Pearl, you were saying that women just aren't as entertaining, but what do you make 1.00

00:22:10.260 to Howard's point that a hugely greater number of people tuned in to watch the women's football

00:22:17.720 team play their matches in the U.S. women's football team than any U.S. male football team?

00:22:24.400 I mean, it may happen for a game, but across the length of a season, the viewership's always

00:22:29.460 higher for the men, always.

00:22:32.060 What about the argument that if you don't value it, if it's not prioritized, people can't see it.

00:22:38.040 So if it's not prioritized on the screen, people can't value it.

00:22:42.460 You guys are in show business.

00:22:44.780 There will be small YouTube channels, tiny YouTube channels, where if they have an entertaining

00:22:49.920 clip or an entertaining segment, their whole life will change overnight.

00:22:54.680 If women's sports was that entertaining that people would want to watch it, the clips would 1.00

00:23:00.720 go viral and people would find a way to watch it.

00:23:03.020 But it's not entertaining.

00:23:04.500 And so what happens is, is whenever women take an L... 1.00

00:23:06.620 As somebody who's in this business, I can tell you how often the clips go viral.

00:23:08.580 Whenever women... 1.00

00:23:09.500 But that's why we're seeing the numbers.

00:23:12.420 Whenever women take an L in life, the world has to tell them they're not taking an L. 1.00

00:23:18.140 And so what happens in women's sports is we're not making money. 1.00

00:23:21.340 We're not really having the viewership the men are having.

00:23:23.480 And it's an L, right?

00:23:24.840 We're just not as entertaining.

00:23:26.420 Instead of the world being honest with us and saying, hey, you guys should be more entertaining

00:23:31.100 and do a better job instead of blaming the men, what it does is it says it's not your

00:23:35.780 fault because you don't have a seat at the table, gender pay gap, blah, blah, blah. 1.00

00:23:40.780 When really the burden of performance is on us to be entertaining and get the viewership.

00:23:45.320 Okay.

00:23:45.740 Howard, is it about being entertaining or is it about being professional?

00:23:50.040 I mean, this is a false choice.

00:23:52.000 Again, we've just been able to provide you a tremendous amount of data on audience, on

00:23:57.660 attendance, on revenue again and again.

00:24:00.080 And ultimately, it's going to be up to your audience to decide, right?

00:24:02.780 Do you believe the massive increase in audience?

00:24:05.820 Do you increase the attendance?

00:24:07.500 Do you see the increase in revenue?

00:24:09.340 Or do you just decide, well, Pearl said they're not entertaining, so I guess we've got to listen

00:24:13.220 to one random person.

00:24:14.360 I'm going to go with the proproners of the evidence first.

00:24:18.020 Well, I would say go into real life and actually come up with an illusion.

00:24:20.680 What happens is that you guys are nerds, right?

00:24:22.980 So a lot of nerds, what they want to do is be able to do.

00:24:24.340 Okay.

00:24:24.700 We don't need to resort to name calling, so let's keep the name calling out of it.

00:24:31.020 But Catherine, let me ask you this.

00:24:32.780 Catherine, to get a, just a moment, Pearl, just a moment.

00:24:38.480 Thanks, Pearl, and we'll throw a question to Catherine. 1.00

00:24:40.700 Don't believe what's in your real life.

00:24:42.800 Okay, Catherine, I'm curious about your opinions on this.

00:24:46.820 Pearl, just a moment.

00:24:48.240 People know what the WNBA is. 1.00

00:24:50.160 Thanks, Pearl.

00:24:50.900 Just a moment.

00:24:51.400 Thanks, and we'll come back to you for a response.

00:24:53.200 Catherine, in 2024, we had a wide-reaching media study

00:24:59.520 that found 15% of sports coverage highlighted women's sport. 0.78

00:25:05.120 If it was profitable, if it was something that broadcasters

00:25:09.300 were going to see a bottom line and a ratings boost from,

00:25:14.240 wouldn't they increase that percentage and show more?

00:25:18.140 Is that evidence that they're not investing in it either?

00:25:21.480 Huh? Maybe because the bottom line isn't there for them.

00:25:25.340 I agree, you know, and I'm saying this as a very proud nerd

00:25:30.220 because I do relate nerdism with people who are educated

00:25:33.940 on the subject they're speaking about.

00:25:35.620 So, I will put my nerdism for us and say that absolutely.

00:25:39.880 I totally agree that...

00:25:42.320 Just a moment, Pearl.

00:25:43.260 We'll let Catherine speak and then we'll bring it over to you.

00:25:46.240 Yeah.

00:25:46.740 I definitely think that when we...

00:25:50.820 when we talk about the visibility element

00:25:53.480 and if we're saying, well, women's sports are not as visible, 0.99

00:25:58.240 they're only at 15%, this or that,

00:26:00.400 it's really because we have to keep going back

00:26:02.520 to the factor of when the women are seen,

00:26:06.620 then the visibility and the audience will grow.

00:26:09.880 It can't happen any other way.

00:26:12.820 I can actually give a great example of this.

00:26:15.420 And again, I'm going to go back to the cycling world,

00:26:17.280 but it really transpires to a bigger picture here.

00:26:21.480 But years ago, 11 years ago, we made a documentary film

00:26:25.400 on women's cycling.

00:26:27.880 And believe it or not, back then, I was working for ESPN

00:26:30.760 and they turned down this idea of making a film on women's cycling,

00:26:35.140 citing, oh, but nobody watches women's cycling. 1.00

00:26:38.680 And I said, well, they don't watch it because there's no way to see it.

00:26:41.720 And then I stepped away and I made this documentary independently.

00:26:45.240 And when we crowdsourced to make this film happen,

00:26:48.320 it turned out that 16 different countries around the world

00:26:51.960 were part of our donor pool.

00:26:53.720 And it was an equal split between men and women

00:26:56.120 who donated to make this film happen.

00:26:58.520 And the donors were cycling fans.

00:27:00.520 These were people that just wanted to know more

00:27:02.840 and see more women's racing. 1.00

00:27:04.660 So long story short, what happened from that was that Half the Road,

00:27:09.400 the film that came out in 2014, that people thought,

00:27:12.880 oh, no one is going to watch.

00:27:14.400 It went on to be screened in 180 countries.

00:27:17.700 And we won a whole bunch of film festivals,

00:27:20.320 all because people wanted to see something

00:27:22.680 that they had not yet had the opportunity to see.

00:27:25.960 And that was women on the screen doing a sport that they loved. 0.99

00:27:30.080 So if we take this logic and apply it to every women's sport,

00:27:34.000 all we need is the visibility.

00:27:36.460 And the fans will fully support those who already exist.

00:27:40.260 And then it'll draw in the new fans

00:27:42.380 who don't even know a sport exists yet.

00:27:44.280 And then they become a lifelong fan.

00:27:45.860 And then the entire sport, both men's and women's side, will rise.

00:27:49.740 We've been able to see that happen in women's cycling. 1.00

00:27:52.140 And that's, again, just one sport.

00:27:54.640 We're seeing it happen in the WNBA. 0.98

00:27:57.320 And I think we need to also bring it back

00:27:59.040 to what Billie Jean King did for tennis.

00:28:01.780 No one was watching women's tennis before Billie Jean King

00:28:05.260 because nobody knew it existed.

00:28:07.240 And she, a player within the realms of tennis at the time,

00:28:13.480 made that change happen.

00:28:15.100 And we in women's cycling stood up

00:28:17.100 to make that change happen years ago.

00:28:19.340 And now women in basketball who are playing currently

00:28:22.780 are the change makers,

00:28:24.420 just as women's soccer did a few years ago. 1.00

00:28:27.160 And that's truly what it takes.

00:28:28.660 It takes people within the organization to stand up

00:28:32.100 and fight for what's right.

00:28:34.880 And it's, there is nothing but, you know,

00:28:37.520 a happy story to be had

00:28:39.900 when women are finally seen equally

00:28:43.280 across all visibility platforms.

00:28:45.200 Okay, can I go now?

00:28:49.060 Can I go?

00:28:49.760 Please.

00:28:51.320 So what happens is in media,

00:28:53.480 I'm going to finish the nerd point.

00:28:55.140 It's not really meant to be an insult.

00:28:56.940 Sorry if it comes off that way.

00:28:58.800 But my point is what happens in media

00:29:01.040 is a lot of people make money off of being victims, right?

00:29:03.900 So she's going to make money off of her documentary film

00:29:06.500 saying boo-hoo, we're not getting enough.

00:29:08.520 I'm held back because I'm a woman, blah, blah, blah.

00:29:11.020 And I'm right, here's my data.

00:29:13.240 And what I'm telling the people is don't believe me,

00:29:15.280 don't believe the people on the panel

00:29:16.740 because studies can be funded by anyone.

00:29:19.460 They can manipulate numbers

00:29:20.720 to not show you what's really going on.

00:29:22.580 But go into your real life and ask people,

00:29:25.060 do you watch the WNBA?

00:29:26.920 Name five WNBA players. 1.00

00:29:28.900 And what you're going to find,

00:29:30.120 because I've played sports for 20 years,

00:29:32.280 I played overseas, I played in college,

00:29:35.220 is we just don't have the attendance that the men do.

00:29:37.800 And it's very profitable to be a victim.

00:29:43.720 And so what they're going to do is say

00:29:45.040 that it's so hard to be a woman's sports 1.00

00:29:48.620 or play in women's sports.

00:29:49.840 And really, there's men out there

00:29:51.240 that do real hard jobs, right?

00:29:53.300 They're the ones paving the roads.

00:29:54.600 They're the ones doing manual labors. 1.00

00:29:56.020 And they don't get any airtime.

00:29:57.680 We get the airtime.

00:29:58.780 That's how much of a privileged class we are as women, 1.00

00:30:01.820 is we get the airtime for not making enough money

00:30:04.960 for dribbling a basketball in an unprofitable league.

00:30:09.220 But there are men that die to build the infrastructure

00:30:12.500 that allows them to play basketball, right?

00:30:16.500 It allows them to get the food that we get,

00:30:18.920 and they don't get any airtime.

00:30:21.020 The other thing that she said was that-

00:30:23.380 All right, just give us one moment on that point, Pearl.

00:30:25.360 Let me put that over to Catherine and Howard for a response.

00:30:29.240 First of all, I don't know where to begin.

00:30:34.080 The nonsense idea that as long as you ignore all the facts

00:30:37.800 and all the data, because anything to be manipulated,

00:30:40.560 we just need to focus on what one person, Pearl,

00:30:44.400 seems to think is reality, somebody who has argued publicly

00:30:47.960 that women shouldn't even have the right to vote. 1.00

00:30:49.900 I mean, it just sort of blows my mind.

00:30:52.100 Catherine, obviously, you are to be credited

00:30:54.120 for what you were able to do,

00:30:55.920 which is to put forward a compelling story

00:30:59.060 that ultimately found its audience and then some.

00:31:02.220 And this goes back to the larger basic point here,

00:31:05.220 which is that no one is arguing

00:31:07.960 that there should be some sort of privileged class involved here.

00:31:11.620 It should simply be that if we create a circumstance

00:31:14.880 by which men's sports and women's sports

00:31:18.260 have a parity of investment,

00:31:21.200 then what happens after that

00:31:23.240 is a true reflection of the marketplace.

00:31:25.960 When we have a marketplace in which decisions are made

00:31:29.580 based on retrograde ideas about women's sports 1.00

00:31:32.820 that ignore the huge audiences we see for women's sports

00:31:37.280 when they get equal opportunity,

00:31:40.100 well, then, of course, by definition,

00:31:42.000 the outcomes are going to be disproportionately geared toward the men.

00:31:46.740 And so, yeah, I'm a little suspect

00:31:49.540 and happily would be taking on the nerd idea

00:31:54.420 that we're going to accept data

00:31:56.620 and basic understanding of the world

00:31:59.600 as it operates over just a random retrograde person

00:32:03.920 who seems to shout the loudest, angriest opinions.

00:32:08.720 Yeah, I'm going to stick with the facts right, Catherine?

00:32:10.820 I don't probably listen to me.

00:32:12.020 I say listen to what you see in real life.

00:32:14.880 Okay, so...

00:32:15.740 Well, then we have a rare point of agreement

00:32:18.260 because the huge audiences we are seeing for the WNBA,

00:32:22.420 for instance, are reality,

00:32:25.020 and your random statements about it,

00:32:27.700 and no matter how many times you say it,

00:32:29.320 it's not true that people aren't watching,

00:32:32.400 are not borne out by reality.

00:32:34.280 But what do I have to go by

00:32:35.860 other than the ratings that we see on TV

00:32:38.800 and the fact that I keep covering games

00:32:40.980 that are sold out time after time?

00:32:43.260 I assume those people are made up in your adult life.

00:32:47.060 Is it profitable, yes or no?

00:32:50.160 Okay, Catherine, I'm going to give you a write-up reply

00:32:53.420 with regard to Pearl's comments about your documentary,

00:32:57.280 and then we'll continue on to our final segment.

00:32:58.980 Right, well, I've got to start with a laugh on this.

00:33:04.140 Nobody makes a documentary film to make money.

00:33:07.700 We make it because we truly love the subject that we're making about.

00:33:12.500 And the last thing it was was boo-hoo, 0.94

00:33:14.940 but actually very much a celebratory film.

00:33:18.400 So if you want to check out Half the Road

00:33:20.300 and make a judgment for yourself,

00:33:22.700 please do, either way.

00:33:24.380 But honestly, I have to say,

00:33:27.040 Pearl, I'm a little bit shocked by some of your thoughts,

00:33:30.320 but I'm also thankful for this view

00:33:34.280 that you're bringing to us

00:33:35.560 because it shows us how much harder

00:33:38.080 we need to fight for equity.

00:33:40.060 And I really think it's important

00:33:43.780 that we have this view

00:33:45.620 that not all of us are on the same page

00:33:47.760 when it comes to progress.

00:33:49.940 And sometimes that can hold development back.

00:33:53.560 And while I'm always hopeful

00:33:54.800 that all women are on the wavelength 1.00

00:33:58.380 of lifting one another up

00:34:00.520 and celebrating the movement of women's sports,

00:34:02.900 I know that there are times

00:34:04.160 where that is not always the case.

00:34:06.360 I feel like that's where we might be right now

00:34:08.380 with our different views.

00:34:09.680 I'll celebrate it when it's profitable.

00:34:11.380 I'll celebrate it.

00:34:13.300 There's equal results.

00:34:14.880 When you're profitable,

00:34:15.780 you get the same better viewership than the men.

00:34:19.080 When women's basketball brings in billions of dollars 1.00

00:34:22.580 like the men do.

00:34:24.000 Well, we may see that one day, actually.

00:34:27.240 We just want a handout.

00:34:28.240 We will.

00:34:28.520 We will see that.

00:34:29.980 We will see the day

00:34:31.380 when women's sports are bringing in billions of dollars. 1.00

00:34:35.520 And the only reason we're not right now

00:34:37.320 is because of equal viewership capabilities.

00:34:40.180 The rest is going to fall into place

00:34:42.640 because of those of us who are pushing for it.

00:34:44.920 And in the meantime, all right.

00:34:48.260 And the growth, by the way,

00:34:48.600 just to point out, the growth is undeniable.

00:34:50.820 The thing that we do know definitively

00:34:52.840 is that the numbers are going up

00:34:55.380 both in terms of money and in terms of audience.

00:34:58.740 And so we're continuing to see it going in that direction.

00:35:03.300 And it's very weird that the men

00:35:07.640 are somehow centered, Pearl, in your mind no matter what.

00:35:10.860 Instead of, oh, look, women's sports in and of itself, 1.00

00:35:14.420 instead of trying to find a way to denigrate it

00:35:16.680 by comparing it to something that has had worlds

00:35:20.140 of more investment and has been around for much longer,

00:35:23.740 women's sports continues to grow.

00:35:25.300 So why is that not a celebratory moment for you

00:35:29.160 as we see investment come to go along with it?

00:35:33.540 Actually, you...

00:35:34.440 Great question.

00:35:34.980 I'll tell you.

00:35:35.580 I'll tell you a great question.

00:35:37.020 So it's because it really irritates me

00:35:39.760 that women always want special treatment for everything. 1.00

00:35:44.100 They want handouts.

00:35:45.060 But you're not answering the question, Pearl.

00:35:47.220 None about special treatment.

00:35:48.900 Okay, Pearl, answer...

00:35:50.440 If you just answer Howard's question directly

00:35:52.700 and then we'll move on.

00:35:54.600 Yeah, why don't you answer the actual question

00:35:56.420 instead of making it about yourself?

00:35:58.540 Pearl?

00:35:59.020 If the NBA operated at a loss for 50 years

00:36:01.180 and it wouldn't exist.

00:36:04.020 But the women can operate at a loss... 1.00

00:36:05.060 But Howard's question was

00:36:06.080 why shouldn't their success be celebrated

00:36:08.180 for what they've achieved now?

00:36:10.860 Because it's not real success, it's subsidised.

00:36:13.180 If it was real success, it would be profitable.

00:36:15.940 I wouldn't have...

00:36:16.500 And the problem...

00:36:17.140 Well, I guess success is subjective.

00:36:21.580 But look, we've been talking about looking to the future.

00:36:23.880 So let me move on to our final segment

00:36:25.500 because you've all raised kind of points

00:36:27.860 about how this is possibly going to change

00:36:30.180 as we move forward,

00:36:31.740 hopefully for more success stories.

00:36:34.140 But how do we get there?

00:36:35.600 Because the simple fact is that women's sports, 1.00

00:36:39.360 the WNBA pay fight,

00:36:41.260 has generated so much attention

00:36:43.680 perhaps because it is a sign

00:36:46.460 that times are changing.

00:36:48.060 It's hit people's radars.

00:36:49.920 It's being discussed.

00:36:51.060 It's being commented on more widely.

00:36:54.180 But how do you put those words into action?

00:36:57.820 And how do you assess the difficulties

00:36:59.940 women's face to become professional athletes? 1.00

00:37:03.000 And to Howard's point,

00:37:04.320 how do you celebrate the successes they've achieved

00:37:07.460 and be able to build on that?

00:37:09.660 Catherine, let me ask you first

00:37:12.180 because you have a history working with women in this capacity.

00:37:18.260 Women have entered the workforce in all fields

00:37:20.940 on lower pay than men.

00:37:22.800 In sports specifically,

00:37:24.980 their leagues haven't been around as long as the men's leagues.

00:37:28.660 What other kind of barriers are they facing?

00:37:32.120 And is there the same energy put into helping them overcome those barriers

00:37:39.660 as there has been energy in other forms of gender inequality in the past?

00:37:46.120 Yeah, it's a great question

00:37:48.960 because we've seen a lot of this happen throughout women's sports 1.00

00:37:53.000 where something like a low salary means that a woman is going to... 1.00

00:38:00.280 A low salary in sport means a woman will also have to carry multiple part-time jobs 1.00

00:38:04.140 just to make ends meet on top of her professional career in sport. 0.97

00:38:08.700 We've definitely seen that happen in cycling.

00:38:10.560 And so one of the things that is happening

00:38:13.700 and also needs to keep happening

00:38:15.020 is pushing for a base salary that is a livable wage

00:38:21.020 and that is on par with the salary that's happening on the men's side of the sport.

00:38:25.760 And of course, as you can probably imagine,

00:38:27.480 I'm going to equate that to cycling,

00:38:29.400 where for many, many years,

00:38:32.280 the women were not deemed to have deserved a base salary. 1.00

00:38:35.980 That's straight from the mouth of the UCI president just 10 years ago.

00:38:40.640 And what was happening was that women who made it to the world tour level, 0.92

00:38:44.460 which is the highest level in cycling,

00:38:46.880 were on a pittance of a stipend that was not set to a decree of any sort of level.

00:38:54.340 So some athletes were making less than $10,000 trying to race professionally

00:38:59.000 and really having to carry jobs on top of that.

00:39:03.000 So we did lobby for a women's base salary, 1.00

00:39:05.360 which finally, not until 2020, went through.

00:39:07.640 And the women at the world tour level now have a base salary of €35,000.

00:39:15.720 That's not a lot of money.

00:39:17.360 We are trying very hard to push it up to 50 and then 100, etc., to take steps up.

00:39:23.420 But the fact of the matter is that we still have to push so hard

00:39:26.740 just to have equal footing for the same amount of work that the men are doing

00:39:31.600 and the same amount of races that the men are doing.

00:39:34.340 And I think that's very important that we understand no women in professional sports 1.00

00:39:39.680 are asking for a handout.

00:39:41.960 They are asking for equal wage compared to the equal hours

00:39:46.700 and the equal races and or games that they are playing.

00:39:50.340 And so these are the things that often have to be...

00:39:52.320 Just let Catherine finish, Pearl. 1.00

00:39:53.920 Oh, excuse me, I'm not here.

00:39:53.940 Oh, excuse me, I'm not here.

00:39:53.960 People out there.

00:39:54.720 Yeah.

00:39:55.000 Pearl, let Catherine finish, please. 1.00

00:39:57.340 Thank you.

00:39:58.320 These are often areas that have to be exposed,

00:40:00.620 where people who are listening to this think,

00:40:02.440 oh, wait, wait, they don't make this, they don't make that,

00:40:05.380 or they don't understand.

00:40:06.640 And then what happens is the women, you know, 1.00

00:40:08.660 really are just kind of, you know, part of tradition,

00:40:12.360 where because it's always been this way,

00:40:14.240 that women were only paid that, 1.00

00:40:15.800 that's how it continues until disruption occurs,

00:40:20.260 benevolent disruption,

00:40:21.300 like we are seeing in the WNBA right now 1.00

00:40:24.020 with those wonderful shirts that say, you know,

00:40:27.640 pay us what you owe us.

00:40:29.740 And now the media clings to this

00:40:32.920 and has a story to write about it.

00:40:35.260 But we didn't know that unless we heard from inside the sport

00:40:38.740 what was really happening.

00:40:40.720 So these are the things that will still have to happen

00:40:42.780 in all of women's sports until we're at a platform 1.00

00:40:45.960 where we can negotiate for equity.

00:40:48.680 And so, yeah, that's a long answer to your question.

00:40:51.520 And I think it's only half of the answer,

00:40:53.180 but I'll pause there.

00:40:55.560 Pearl, the fact that we are seeing change,

00:40:58.020 the fact that there is this agitation,

00:41:02.740 as we've seen in all other areas

00:41:06.080 where this agitation has happened in the past,

00:41:08.680 is it not inevitably heading in the right,

00:41:12.080 the same direction?

00:41:13.300 You might not think it's the right direction,

00:41:14.700 but surely women's sport is just going to continue to grow. 1.00

00:41:18.820 I think it'll grow, but still losing money.

00:41:24.820 So it'll just keep losing money every single year.

00:41:27.200 I have no problem with equality when you have equal outcomes.

00:41:30.480 But again, what women want is they don't want to do the work that men did. 1.00

00:41:34.940 They don't want the outcomes men have. 1.00

00:41:36.980 And they want to complain about,

00:41:39.760 are you going to berate her for interrupting me,

00:41:42.160 or is this just one-sided?

00:41:43.560 Well, you know.

00:41:45.140 So, so...

00:41:46.440 Keep going.

00:41:47.420 You know, my next question is,

00:41:48.960 do you know how much loggers make in the United States?

00:41:54.540 A logger makes $43,000 a year

00:41:57.200 so that you guys have the chair,

00:41:59.180 like the wood in the background,

00:42:00.640 the chairs that you're sitting on.

00:42:02.160 And we live this such privileged,

00:42:04.580 such a privileged life as women.

00:42:07.400 Crab fishermen.

00:42:08.640 Again, somebody dies to get us around.

00:42:10.140 But just to bring you back to the topic at hand, Pearl,

00:42:13.700 just because we're focusing on sport,

00:42:15.580 we're almost out of time.

00:42:17.080 I just want to know...

00:42:19.000 My point is,

00:42:21.900 there's no airtime for that.

00:42:24.360 It's all cry me a river,

00:42:25.920 even though we're not profitable,

00:42:27.580 pay me more money.

00:42:29.060 I think there's,

00:42:31.000 I'm not sure what evidence you have

00:42:33.220 that women don't want to put in the work. 1.00

00:42:36.040 Where do you get that statement from?

00:42:38.500 She doesn't.

00:42:39.220 And just to point out,

00:42:39.920 this is a woman who has advocated publicly

00:42:41.740 that women shouldn't have the right to vote. 1.00

00:42:43.780 Yeah, I'm like three on one here.

00:42:46.140 Online.

00:42:47.020 So, just...

00:42:48.460 Okay, Howard, go ahead.

00:42:49.880 You can kind of take all of that with a grain of salt.

00:42:52.180 This is a person who lives for,

00:42:54.720 clearly, attention over actual facts.

00:42:56.960 But, again, I just want to reiterate

00:42:58.580 and thank Catherine for what she's been able to do.

00:43:02.400 And it goes back to that

00:43:03.720 when you actually look at

00:43:05.140 the proper investment input

00:43:07.240 that goes into women's sports, 0.99

00:43:09.440 just to your actual question

00:43:10.760 and not a random thing about loggers,

00:43:13.400 that we've seen that progress.

00:43:15.880 The progress continues to grow.

00:43:18.300 Pearl, obviously, has made a brand around

00:43:20.360 pretending these things aren't happening.

00:43:22.660 But I'm excited and encouraged

00:43:25.040 by the fact that this movement is so enormous

00:43:27.560 that she hasn't been able to really break through.

00:43:30.780 Okay, Pearl.

00:43:31.320 I do feel very badly for her

00:43:32.760 because I doubt she ever will.

00:43:34.920 We are out of time.

00:43:36.520 I wish that we could continue for a little bit longer

00:43:38.420 because obviously it's a hot-button issue.

00:43:42.740 Everyone has a lot to say about it,

00:43:45.100 but we are out of time.

00:43:46.520 So we are unfortunately going to have to leave it there.

00:43:49.140 But I really do appreciate all of your contributions.

00:43:51.600 Thank you so much to our panel

00:43:53.360 joining us on CounterPoints to discuss this.

00:43:56.480 We have Catherine Bertrine,

00:43:58.800 the CEO of the Homestretch Foundation,

00:44:01.420 which provides free housing

00:44:02.620 for female professional athletes

00:44:04.260 struggling with the gender pay gap.

00:44:06.540 Howard Megdahl joining us,

00:44:08.320 a sports writer and author of the upcoming book,

00:44:11.120 Becoming Caitlin Clark

00:44:12.420 on that record-breaking WNBA player.

00:44:15.680 And rounding out our panel, Pearl Davis.

00:44:17.900 Thank you for being with us.

00:44:19.320 An American YouTuber and cultural commentator.

00:44:23.120 Thanks, everyone, for your contribution to CounterPoints.

Pearl - August 02, 2025

Pearl RIPS APART Woke Female Athlete

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