Playing to Win

00:00:01.000 All right, guys, what is up? We are live for another installment of the Playing to Win

00:00:06.140 series, number 54, and I'm joined today by P.D. Mangan. How are you doing, brother?

00:00:12.180 I'm doing fine. Thanks, Rich. How are you doing?

00:00:14.420 I'm doing awesome. And I should try to frame who you are before we kind of like get into

00:00:20.780 it and chop it up, because I didn't know you until I started using Twitter on a more frequent

00:00:26.100 basis. And, you know, I see this, I'm not going to say older, I'm going to say more seasoned

00:00:31.700 gentlemen, you know, giving decent advice on self-care and longevity and exercise and that

00:00:37.440 sort of stuff. And you don't just talk about it, but you're one of the few guys that actually

00:00:41.720 look the part. And let me just throw up a, I mean, this is like one of your standard sort

00:00:47.020 of posts on your thread, but it's like, you know, hey, you know, today's workout is dead

00:00:53.060 lifts, chin up, rows, face pull, dips, pushups, lateral raise, overhead press, hammer curl,

00:00:57.780 shrugs, jump rope, all at one set, age 66, sun, stake, steel. And there's your, you know,

00:01:03.860 jack self just, you know, proving and giving the receipts on, you know, the work has been

00:01:07.880 done sort of thing. Can you talk a little bit about your, your, your background, like

00:01:13.780 your Batman origin story, like how you got to where you are today, just to give the folks

00:01:17.120 that don't really know who you are a little bit of frame. Sure. Um, so, uh, I've been

00:01:23.980 interested. So what I do now, of course, is mostly talk about health and fitness and, uh,

00:01:29.600 it's topic I've been interested in a long time, at least personally. So, you know, round about

00:01:35.420 when I was back in college, which was a long time ago, um, I, you know, decided I needed to

00:01:43.320 get in better shape. So I did. And, uh, you know, at the time I, I was a little on the

00:01:52.500 plump side, uh, you know, back, back when I was sort of 18, 19, 20 in there. Um, and,

00:02:00.080 and, and later on I, I became the skinny guy. So anyway, I can talk about that, but yeah,

00:02:05.880 I, I just felt, I remember, uh, um, watching the 1976 Olympics on television, sitting there,

00:02:15.640 uh, you know, on the couch, uh, I don't know, eating something, smoking a cigarette probably,

00:02:22.000 uh, and, and thinking, wow, you know, all these people are in just tremendous shape and look

00:02:27.760 at me, you know, so I should do something about this. Um, so I, you know, I got interested

00:02:34.080 in it. And, um, so a little later on, this was, this was the 1970s, a little later on the

00:02:41.740 running craze, uh, really started going on. Um, no, nobody really ran much before then.

00:02:48.420 And my first exposure to it, I thought, wow, this is kind of crazy. People are really doing

00:02:54.000 this, huh? And then, and then, uh, you know, so I started doing it and liked it and kept at

00:03:00.840 it. Um, and before long, I was running long distances. So, you know, I, well, yeah, so I,

00:03:11.660 I have run a couple of marathons in my life. Um, and you know, I was doing pretty good mileage

00:03:18.640 every day, go out, do on the weekends, do a long run, you know, 12 to 15 miles, that kind

00:03:26.060 of thing. And, um, so I liked it, kept at it. And then another thing was, um, I, I just,

00:03:36.600 you know, I want, I wanted to be healthy. Right. So, um, my, my father had developed heart disease

00:03:44.980 at a, you know, in middle age, pretty young age, he was not even 50. So, you know, ultimately

00:03:50.360 he lived a long life. Um, but you know, this, this heart disease certainly affected him and

00:03:56.260 I could see that and it, it affected me too. I decided, you know, like, you know, no way

00:04:02.480 do I want that to happen to me. Um, so I got on the, uh, you know, low saturated fat bandwagon,

00:04:12.080 which, you know, everybody was saying, um, and this especially took off, like say after

00:04:16.920 around 1980. So, um, ultimately I became a vegetarian and a vegan. I, I, that's a good

00:04:25.480 change from your narrative today too. Absolutely. I'm, I'm kind of embarrassed to admit it now,

00:04:31.380 but I, I did do that. Okay. So when you're talking about like meat, like you're, like you're

00:04:36.240 speaking from experience as somebody that was prior vegan. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and

00:04:43.780 so, so really what happened without, without, you know, going into long, tedious detail is

00:04:51.280 I ultimately became ill from my, from, you know, veganism from, and then from running long

00:04:58.360 distances put on top of that. Um, you know, hard to say what factor was, you know, doing

00:05:05.540 what, but anyway, I became ill and. Were you, were you the typical like thin, like almost sickly

00:05:11.540 looking like runner body, vegan looking guy? Cause I, I've seen a few of those guys out

00:05:16.160 there. Yeah. Right. Right. Eventually, uh, you know, after a while, yes, I, I eventually

00:05:21.200 what sort of disease did you end up with by, by sticking to like a plant-based diet? Cause

00:05:26.300 I mean, I've heard all sorts of stories, like you can end up with neurological, uh, type of

00:05:30.680 diseases. Cause it's very difficult to get all the nutrients your body needs just from plants.

00:05:34.460 That, that, that is absolutely correct. So ultimately I had a diagnosis of chronic fatigue

00:05:41.120 syndrome and chronic fatigue syndrome really is not much of a diagnosis. They, they give

00:05:48.240 it to you when they, when they can't figure out anything else. Um, fatigue is, is one of

00:05:57.100 the major things that people complain about when they go to a doctor. So there's just a whole,

00:06:02.620 you know, a ton of things that can cause somebody to be fatigued, you know? So they, you know,

00:06:07.840 they start investigating, um, in, in trying to figure out what the cause of it is. And then

00:06:13.800 eventually when they can't figure out, you know, that there's no seeming cause for your

00:06:19.800 fatigue that, and, and it's unrelenting fatigue, there's certain characteristics of it. Like you

00:06:26.680 don't, you're not refreshed by sleep, this kind of thing. Then you've got chronic fatigue

00:06:32.240 syndrome. How old were you at that point? So at that, at that point I was, uh, how old

00:06:38.980 was I? 41, 42, something like that. Um, right. Um, so then began a, uh, long odyssey, um,

00:06:52.920 it, uh, 11 years to be precise of trying to figure this out. Um, and I went to numerous doctors,

00:07:02.080 most of whom could do nothing for me and a good fraction of whom didn't seem to,

00:07:10.320 I don't know, didn't seem to care. It didn't seem to be able to do anything. Didn't, you know,

00:07:16.140 they were like, well, I don't know. I just don't seem to know most of the time. Yeah. Right. So,

00:07:22.280 you know, there, there were some good ones. I eventually found a good doctor who, you know,

00:07:27.380 who's basically willing to help, you know, willing to try almost anything. Um, you know, but

00:07:34.620 for, for many years, you know, nothing happened, nothing got better. Um, and, and eventually

00:07:41.960 I came to a point where I thought if I, I really, at this point, you know, in the middle of all this,

00:07:50.280 I thought I was going to be this way for the rest of my life. Um, and so at some point I, I thought,

00:07:59.160 well, if I'm not going to be like this for the rest of my life, I get, I have to figure it out for

00:08:03.660 myself because the doctors are coming up with nothing. Um, and you know, so, so I decided,

00:08:11.960 well, okay, I'll, I will try to figure it out. So my, uh, educational background, I have a degree in

00:08:20.160 microbiology and, um, I've studied pharmacology as well. So, you know, I was relatively, uh, you know,

00:08:28.180 comfortable with going through the medical and scientific literature and I could understand it.

00:08:32.800 And, and so I just jumped in. Um, and one of the first things that I came across in, in doing this

00:08:45.500 was, was that I figured out that being a vegan or a vegetarian was probably not a good idea.

00:08:53.880 How did you come across that? Like, how did you arrive at that?

00:08:56.320 Well, um, it has to do with protein intake, um, and glutathione. So glutathione is, you know, I'll,

00:09:05.800 I'll, I'll keep this brief, not get too technical, but glutathione is the most important internal

00:09:13.120 antioxidant that human beings have, that mammals have. It's made. By the way, you asked me the other

00:09:18.660 day about what was in my vitamin bag and they do inject glutathione into the bag too.

00:09:22.600 Right, right. I saw that. Yes. Um, so what had happened in, in my medical odyssey was that there were,

00:09:34.360 there were, of course, lots of lab tests done and nothing ever turned up abnormal or not very abnormal

00:09:42.700 anyway, not enough to explain anything. Finally, the one doctor did a test for glutathione and, um,

00:09:52.140 this is a test that's not commonly done in the lab. Like, uh, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a

00:09:57.320 special test. Only a few labs do it. Um, and it came back abnormal. Um, and so that was kind of a

00:10:06.720 revelation because it was the first time that, you know, anything like that had come back abnormal.

00:10:11.840 So I, I delved into looking at glutathione. Glutathione is a protein. So it's a, it's a small

00:10:20.080 protein made of three amino acids. So where do amino acids come from? They come from protein.

00:10:26.280 Um, and so if you, you know, the idea being, if you don't get enough protein or enough of the right

00:10:33.300 protein, you won't be making enough glutathione. There is actually some, uh, you know, there are

00:10:41.580 studies, uh, about this that, that, uh, people who don't eat meat do have lower levels of glutathione.

00:10:51.340 So anyway, that was one of the first clues. Um, and at that, at that point, at that very moment,

00:11:00.140 I, I was not totally convinced the, the, the way I phrase it just now about that. I thought that

00:11:07.680 being a, being a vegetarian or vegan was not a good idea. That was, that was about the most I could get.

00:11:13.580 Was it a bad idea? Uh, well, I didn't know at the time, but I thought there's no harm in not doing it

00:11:20.780 anymore. You know, and at the time I was still buying the whole saturated fat causes heart disease

00:11:28.060 kind of thing. Not that I was in any, in any danger of heart disease at the time, but anyway,

00:11:34.500 so I quit, quit being a vegetarian, quit being a vegan and, um, felt better pretty quickly.

00:11:43.580 Um, like, like within the first couple of days of eating meat or was it within a month or two?

00:11:48.040 I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it was quite that quick, but certainly within a month or two,

00:11:53.600 I was noticeably better. And what did you notice immediately? Like, like what were the biggest

00:11:58.000 changes from a plant diet to a, I mean, did you go right from plant to carnivore or did you just

00:12:03.660 incorporate more meat into like salads and stuff like that? Well, well, it was more like, uh, so it

00:12:09.640 wasn't going to straight carnivore. No, it was more, more like a paleolithic diet. And I, I had a few

00:12:17.760 stumbles there at the beginning because one of the first versions I read about the paleo diet was from

00:12:25.600 someone, Lauren Cordain, who was, um, big on, you know, he still believed the saturated fat stuff about

00:12:33.780 heart disease, you know? So I, so I, I read his stuff and decided to follow that. And I was basically

00:12:40.040 really hungry all the time doing this. It was, it was that, so it didn't last that long, that

00:12:46.020 particular version. Um, and then, but then I went more to just sort of, uh, you know, meat and vegetables,

00:12:53.500 uh, that sort of thing. Um, and got rid of all the process stuff, all the non paleo stuff, um,

00:13:01.540 with, you know, with a few exceptions, um, and, and felt better pretty, you know, relatively quickly.

00:13:08.180 Can you spell out for the people watching, like what that, what that looked like on a daily basis?

00:13:12.760 Like, was it steak, chicken, fish, like salads? Like what did you, right? So, uh, what would it be?

00:13:20.180 Um, it, it would be very similar to what I'm doing now. So that would be, um, yes, I eat steak.

00:13:28.700 Uh, I eat some chicken. I eat some fish. Um, I eat fermented dairy products like, uh, yogurt, uh, and cheese.

00:13:38.100 And, um, I drink coffee and tea. I drink red wine. Um, I eat a few vegetables. Um, probably,

00:13:47.280 I'm not sure how many I would eat if the lady of the house wasn't, uh, cooking them and serving them

00:13:52.560 to me, but I do eat some. Um, so that, that's what it looks like. Um, and so in any case, you know,

00:14:03.260 I, I did feel better. I, I was still fatigued and so on. Um, but at, at one point I thought,

00:14:12.260 you know, wow, you know, I've, I feel, you know, on some particular day I've, I've got some good

00:14:18.880 energy here and, um, um, I had wanted to take up weightlifting again. Um, I've, I had done it a few

00:14:26.940 times in my life before. Um, and so I had an old barbell, you know, sitting in my, uh, sitting in my

00:14:36.440 resistance training on muscles at all during the whole vegan time. I did do some. Yes. Um, I would

00:14:44.340 say, you know, it wasn't the most effective way, you know, based on what I know now. And I'm sure I

00:14:50.300 wasn't getting enough protein to, you know, support muscle growth, but I did do it. Um, but, but my

00:14:57.880 major focus was on running. Um, so anyway, I, I picked up my, my old barbell and started doing a

00:15:08.440 few things and managed to eke out about 15 minutes of, of a workout and, and it was exhausting. Um,

00:15:15.080 and then I rested a day and then the day after that I did it again, um, and was feeling better.

00:15:22.440 It, it felt good to do that. And, and after, uh, after a few weeks of doing this, I realized

00:15:30.500 I needed heavier weights. Uh, and so I went and joined a gym. It's something I had never

00:15:36.500 done before and, um, and just kept at it. And eventually the first year I did that, I put

00:15:46.440 on, you know, 25 to 30 pounds of muscle. Um, it was very rapid progress. It, it is substantial.

00:15:54.980 I, I came from, uh, are you a tall guy or do you have a shorter frame? Um, average. Okay.

00:16:01.560 Right. Right. That's still quite a lot of muscle, especially for a guy that's like well into his

00:16:06.280 like middle ages of his life. Right. Sure. Sure. It is. Um, I came from, I, you know, I was very

00:16:14.460 thin to be, to begin with. Right. So, uh, you know, a lot of that was just working out hard and

00:16:20.500 eating like the picture you have here on your Twitter banner at 53, like that, that to me looks

00:16:26.040 like a standard vegan runner. Exactly. And that's what I, that's what I was. Yes. Right. Although

00:16:32.780 by that time I wasn't able to run because of my fatigue, but, um, yes. So, so that photo you just

00:16:40.620 showed, that is the base of, you know, that that's where I started in, in, in my, uh, weightlifting.

00:16:49.660 And, um, so, so I did it. I put on a lot of muscle in, in the first year and felt really good.

00:16:56.980 And, and then, you know, at some point along the way, I had told myself that if I, if I ever figured

00:17:06.480 out, you know, if I could ever get out of this, if I could ever fix myself and figure

00:17:12.380 out how, you know, how it's done that I should write about it. So at some point later on, I

00:17:20.140 was like, oh, well, and I thought, oh yeah, I remember I was going to write about it. So

00:17:23.580 I did. And so I, I wrote a book first one, it was about chronic fatigue, put it up on, uh,

00:17:29.960 Amazon Kindle. And, and then, uh, after that, I was like, well, what am I going to do now?

00:17:37.660 Well, I, I guess I'll just keep writing. And so I did. And, um, you know, I have, uh, started

00:17:44.780 my website and wrote some more books, eventually, um, ended up on Twitter, which is my main venue

00:17:52.800 these days. It's just a much more, uh, uh, you know, I don't know, ready, readily available

00:17:59.720 format to, to get to people. Um, and so end of story. That's, that's, that's my origin story.

00:18:10.440 That's how, that's how I got where I am here. Yeah. I, I had no idea that you were a vegan runner,

00:18:14.740 um, for a length of time. I mean, I just, um, I mean, I came across you about a year or so ago,

00:18:19.840 I think. And, um, you know, uh, I've just found that the content that you've put out has been

00:18:25.680 quite useful, especially when it comes to self care and health. And I mean, you seem to have the

00:18:30.080 same sort of mindset when it comes to life and everything else too. Um, but the, but the weight

00:18:35.340 training for you started at age 53 roughly. Right. That's, that's right. That's, that's when it

00:18:42.020 started in earnest until now. And I don't know if you can answer this. Cause I mean, you started at 53,

00:18:47.760 but how is weight training at, at that stage of your life as a guy different from somebody that

00:18:52.160 might be in their twenties or thirties? Um, I don't know that it is so different. Um,

00:18:58.900 you know, there, there, there are a lot of myths around, uh, age and exercise, like especially weight

00:19:08.220 training, that it's harder to build muscle, uh, past a certain age, past the age of 50. I've even seen

00:19:16.280 people say, Oh, after 40, you know, you can't do it. And this is not true at all. Um, yes,

00:19:23.440 there is some age related decline in the ability to build muscle, but it is just not very significant

00:19:29.020 at all. That's far from the, um, dominant factor in, in being able to put on weight. You just,

00:19:36.500 you know, you work out at its most basic level is you work out hard and you eat right. And you put

00:19:45.360 on muscle that, you know, that's, that's how it works. So, um, older, older men do have, um,

00:19:55.680 uh, let, let's say, let's say, uh, uh, they have to, they have to watch their recovery time better.

00:20:02.920 They need more recovery time. They need more recovery, recovery time. Exactly.

00:20:07.240 So if you worked out like every other day, let's say, or did three or four days a week when you were

00:20:11.060 in your twenties, could you still get away with that? Well, in my twenties, I could, uh, it, in my

00:20:18.320 fifties and sixties. So like right now I certainly can't. And the, the thing is what I want to make

00:20:26.900 clear is I, I, I don't recommend that anybody do that, that sort of, you know, four or five days a

00:20:32.880 week in the gym working, you know, for too much. Yeah. I believe it's too much. And, and, um,

00:20:40.060 so, yeah, so, you know, but younger guys can get away with that more. Um, I, you know, I believe in

00:20:48.280 basically minimally effect, minimal effective dose of exercise, um, that's going, going to be the most

00:20:56.220 effective for you. So this, um, my, my view on this, as far as how much, how often you should train

00:21:08.440 is partly borne out by experience because I have spent a lot of time, um, feeling not, not so great

00:21:19.960 in terms of energy levels because I was working out too much. I see this in my clients quite often,

00:21:28.280 um, um, where, you know, this is, this is especially true of, um, you know, high performing men.

00:21:36.440 They, they want to exercise, they want to, uh, they want to be healthy and fit, um, and tend to go at it

00:21:44.640 a lot. So there, there are guys out there that are going hard at it every day and they feel tired all the

00:21:51.880 time and they don't know why. And usually when I, you know, when I find out about their, their exercise

00:21:58.880 regimen, you know, that, that's the first thing to look at. Um, if they're, you know, going to, going to

00:22:06.080 CrossFit four times a week or something like that, it's just a whole lot of exercise. The, the amount of

00:22:15.860 exercise that, you know, and I'm, I'm, I'm going off on a tangent here. So, you know, feel free to,

00:22:22.480 you know, reel me back. No, I'm listening, man. Hey, you know, school me. Yeah. Okay. So the amount

00:22:28.380 of exercise that is, uh, conducive to health and fitness, um, the, the optimum amount of exercise

00:22:38.500 is surprisingly low. Um, there've been some studies, for example, where they looked at runners,

00:22:45.860 joggers and, um, looked at them in terms of mortality rates. And they found that the, the people

00:22:55.240 who were doing something on the order of running, like a couple of miles at a time, two to three days

00:23:05.060 a week had the lowest mortality levels compared, compared to people who did no exercise. Um, and then

00:23:12.280 when, when people did more than that, there was either no effect or a detrimental effect.

00:23:18.740 Similar thing has been found in weightlifting where people who did, uh, I, I think it was a couple of

00:23:27.060 sessions a week had lower mortality rates, but they found that the people who were doing four to five

00:23:34.160 sessions a week, basically the mortality was flat. It's just as if they weren't exercising at all. Um,

00:23:43.400 and certainly, so, you know, this, this does get tricky because you're looking at populations of people.

00:23:51.460 There's all kinds of factors involved. Um, but certainly it's, it's my view that when you get up

00:23:58.880 into things like distance running, for example, marathon running, um, you're certainly getting

00:24:05.480 into a level of exercise that is not beneficial to health, um, and, and is, is detrimental to health.

00:24:14.520 So, uh, you know, there, there have been, uh, studies where they looked at heart problems in marathon

00:24:21.000 runners. Um, so men who had been running long distance all their lives and, you know, found that

00:24:28.260 they had this, um, you know, fibrosis in their hearts. Um, and, and so, you know, there's, there's a lot of

00:24:37.640 evidence that, um, yeah, that too much exercise is not good for you. What that level of too much exercise

00:24:45.060 is, you know, can be a little hard to determine. Um, but in, in terms of the way someone feels, um, and in their

00:24:57.400 day-to-day life, certainly it's, it is definitely possible to exercise too much. And a lot of people

00:25:03.260 are doing it. Yeah. I think your body like knows how to tell you when you're going too hard on it.

00:25:09.340 Like I, I remember this, um, this friend's cottage that I went to a few years ago before all this COVID

00:25:15.980 stuff went, went down and he goes, yeah, you know, bring your mountain bike up. There's some good trails

00:25:19.600 up here. And I haven't, I don't mountain bike that often, but I got a nice bike. So I figured, all right,

00:25:23.280 you know, let's, let's go do it. And he took me out on, it was like a two and a half hour ride

00:25:28.580 through very hilly terrain. And I got out of the thing with my heart just pounding like crazy. And

00:25:35.040 I was like, this can't be good. Like, this is ridiculous. Like I'm exhausted. Like my, like my

00:25:40.840 heart's going a million miles an hour. Yeah. It was kind of fun, but it was more like torture.

00:25:46.240 Right. And I thought the same thing, you know, before when I would run, cause my dad used to run,

00:25:50.180 you know, and when I was younger, I'd go out with him. It's like, you know, you do a few miles and I'm

00:25:54.140 like, this is like, this can't be good. This is, this is getting silly. Right. Right. This, this,

00:26:00.200 uh, you know, chronic endurance exercise, um, just seems to be, you know, something that, that,

00:26:08.840 well, at least it's not optimal. Uh, there's been a lot of interesting work done in the last

00:26:16.300 couple of decades about high intensity interval training. So this is something like where people,

00:26:24.640 um, when they do it in the lab, this is how they do it. They sit on a stationary bicycle with,

00:26:30.540 you know, uh, fine tune control. So they have the resistance adjusted just right.

00:26:36.100 Wired up to everything with a mask. And well, that, that, that particular thing with a mask would be,

00:26:41.520 so for VO two max testing. Um, but this particular protocol for high intensity interval training

00:26:48.320 is just, you know, basically getting on the stationary cycle and riding all out for 30 seconds.

00:26:56.220 Um, and some, sometimes even shorter. So there've been direct head to head comparisons of, um,

00:27:05.860 this type of exercise with aerobic training, cardio training, in other words, which is basically slow,

00:27:14.540 steady state endurance training. It turns out that people, so, so they get these guys in the,

00:27:21.840 in, into the gym or training center and they do this, um, high intensity interval training,

00:27:29.360 or more specifically, they call it sit sprint interval training, which when they do it on the bicycle,

00:27:35.340 on the stationary cycle. And they do, uh, this one particular one where they did

00:27:42.660 15 second all out bouts on the cycle interspersed with a few minutes in between at low, low intensity

00:27:51.440 cycling, you know, and then they do it again. So they did a total of four of these 15 second

00:27:57.220 intervals. So a total of one minute of intense exercise, not including of course, warm up,

00:28:04.980 cool down and the, that low intensity in between do that three times a week. Then they compared it to

00:28:11.640 people who were, uh, running on a treadmill for 45 minutes at, um, also three days a week. And

00:28:19.840 the same physiological changes were seen in both groups. So the, the one minute of exercise three

00:28:28.820 times a week did the same things in terms of increasing fitness as spending all that time

00:28:35.760 on the treadmill running. So intensity of exercise really matters a lot. Um, it, it's a very important

00:28:45.960 factor. If you get the intensity, right, the volume and frequency of exercise can go way down.

00:28:52.720 So that, that's how I look at it. And that's how I look at my weight training as well.

00:28:59.880 Yeah. So your personal strategy is one rep max.

00:29:03.480 No, not one rep max. It's going to momentary muscular failure.

00:29:07.740 So, so it's, so it's failure, but, but, but one, um, but one set,

00:29:13.380 one set, one set to failure, right? So if you're doing chin-ups, you'll do as many chin-ups as you

00:29:17.920 can do until you can't pull yourself up.

00:29:19.460 Exactly. Push-ups, you'll keep pushing up until you can't push up again. Right.

00:29:23.580 Exactly. Exactly. Right. Okay. Um, yeah. So, you know, that this is, uh, uh, a D a very different

00:29:33.240 method of training. Um, it's been espoused by some prominent people, but it certainly differs a lot

00:29:40.960 from what the majority of people are doing in the gym. Some of these prominent people like Mike Metzer,

00:29:46.680 Arthur Jones, um, um, Casey Beider, some others to, uh, uh, advocate this method. And Drew Bay on Twitter,

00:29:57.540 uh, also advocates this. Um, and it, it involves intense exercise, but it's much, much less frequent

00:30:07.920 and, and, and lower volume. Mm. Um, I want to ask you about, uh, testosterone therapy. What's your,

00:30:15.380 what's your view on that for the aging guy?

00:30:17.740 Okay. So my view on that is that it's fine basically. Um, however, I think that most men

00:30:27.360 would be better off, um, taking care of the other stuff first. In other words, their health and

00:30:32.960 fitness, losing body fat, putting on muscle, getting their diet, right. I think that TRT is

00:30:41.520 possibly resorted to by both doctors and patients a little too quickly. Um, that said, if somebody

00:30:51.160 needs it, if they've taken care of all the other stuff, their diet, their, you know, their level of

00:30:56.440 body fat and their muscle and so on their sleep, all this kind of thing, and they still need, uh, help

00:31:03.480 in that area, then I, I think TRT is fine. I think you mentioned somewhere in a tweet that you're

00:31:09.740 still natural. I am. Yes. Okay. Um, is there a reason why you haven't considered, uh, adding

00:31:15.920 testosterone therapy to what it is you're doing? Is it not needed or is it like, is there a risk

00:31:19.840 benefit analysis that you've done? Um, not really risk benefit. No, it's more a matter of, uh, I do

00:31:27.640 have a normal testosterone level and so haven't, you know, terribly felt the need. I, you know,

00:31:35.420 I've thought about it. I think it, I think my, um, I think it has a lot to do with, do I want to add

00:31:45.220 something else? Do I, do I want to be, uh, injecting myself twice a week with something that

00:31:50.260 I'm just going to have to keep doing for, uh, you know, um, the foreseeable future years. Um,

00:31:57.720 and I'm getting along okay without it. So I just thought, well, nah, I don't, I don't think I will.

00:32:03.460 Yeah. There was a, there's a podcast, I think it was on Andrew Huberman and he had some data collected

00:32:09.420 on like, there's some anomalies out there where there's 80 year old guys that have higher levels

00:32:15.980 of testosterone than many guys in their twenties. It's not, it's not normal. It's, it's more abnormal.

00:32:21.160 I mean, I, I started, uh, adding, uh, testosterone therapy, I'm gonna say it was about four or five

00:32:27.060 years ago. And I mean, I was already fit. I was able, you know, in pretty good shape, but I had all

00:32:32.760 the signs of, you know, declining teeth starting to show up and my levels weren't low per se on the

00:32:38.660 government tables. Cause they just, you know, when you can't dunk the ball in the net, they just lower the,

00:32:42.980 you know, the net for you when you get older. Um, so I had done a lot of research and I asked a bunch

00:32:48.880 of guys around and I figured, you know, this is right for me, but I get what you're saying. Like

00:32:51.700 the whole notion where you have to rely on a exogenous source of a hormone for pretty much the

00:32:57.280 rest of your life. Um, it's a little bit daunting, right? Cause I mean, like what happens if they run

00:33:01.620 out of it? What happens if the shit hits the fan and it's not available to you anymore? Like there's all

00:33:04.960 kinds of questions that could come up there. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. Um, the, the, yeah, it's interesting

00:33:11.960 what you, what you mentioned about the, um, 80 year olds with high testosterone, because I've seen

00:33:18.460 that data too. Um, there, there's a, you know, a small fraction of men into their, who, into their

00:33:26.340 eighties have, you know, like a 900 testosterone level, something like that. Um, the, you know,

00:33:33.640 so the question is how do they do it? Um, is it, is there a genetic component? Well, there's a

00:33:40.320 genetic component to everything. So yeah, there probably is some genetic component, but, um,

00:33:45.440 are they, you know, I'd like to see what these guys look like. Like, are they in shape? They work

00:33:51.200 out, they're eating right, all this kind of thing. Certainly if you do those things, you have more of

00:33:57.320 a chance of, you know, being one of those men that, that has high testosterone levels. And also I was

00:34:04.480 just going to remark, yeah, you know, they lower the testosterone level ranges, what's considered

00:34:10.160 normal. Um, they just did this about three years ago, I think where the, the lower, they, they

00:34:17.380 lowered the, the lower end of the range. So basically if you go to a doctor and you've got a testosterone

00:34:24.200 that's anywhere within this range that they deem normal, then the doctor's going to say, ah,

00:34:29.200 you're good. Don't worry about it. Um, and, and that is certainly not correct. Yeah. I mean,

00:34:35.560 I've seen guys message me in their twenties with their labs and I, I don't analyze this shit. I mean,

00:34:41.160 I'm not a doctor. I, I send them off, but it's like, I'll look at the numbers and it's like, wow,

00:34:45.560 you're like, that's, that's some low ass numbers for a 23 year old. Like, what are you doing? Right.

00:34:50.520 Um, it's interesting. Um, I want to ask you about, um, anti-aging. I mean, do you have an anti-aging

00:34:55.920 protocol to longevity, to health? Um, like as your supplement stack that you look at, I'm just

00:35:01.780 curious on what your position on that is. Yeah. So, um, one of the things that I discovered,

00:35:09.220 you know, fairly early on looking at all this stuff was that body composition is really important for

00:35:17.240 aging. So when you look at the changes that, um, you know, that someone, you know, that,

00:35:25.920 someone has when they get old, when, as they age, a lot of this resembles the same changes that you

00:35:33.780 see in obesity and diabetes. So they're not necessarily of the same magnitude. If, if,

00:35:42.000 in other words, if somebody stays lean and fit, they're going to have fewer of these changes, but

00:35:47.700 these changes do seem to be intrinsic to, to aging. People lose muscle. That is a big one.

00:35:55.920 Um, that, that is very, uh, underrated. So if you don't consciously try to keep muscle,

00:36:03.780 then you're going to lose it. And this starts from a very fairly young age, say the age of 30.

00:36:10.620 There's also a direct correlation, if I'm not mistaken, between skeletal muscle mass,

00:36:15.720 like lean skeletal muscle mass and diseases. I think like Alzheimer's, dementia, like there's a lot

00:36:23.080 of degenerative diseases as you get older as a guy that you're more likely to, to get if you don't

00:36:29.300 have, I mean, not, not bodybuilder size muscle, obviously, but like lean skeletal muscle on your

00:36:35.080 body where, I mean, I tell guys, look, if you can't do 20 pushups, 10 chin ups and skip rope for a

00:36:41.200 minute or two, like at least start there. Like that's a basic foundational sort of like requirement

00:36:46.360 for most guys. And that should be the same if you're 30 or 50 or even 60. I mean, you should be able

00:36:51.220 to do something basic like that at any age. So what's the relevance to the amount of like skeletal

00:36:55.680 muscle mass when it comes to, um, minimizing, limiting aging, you know, degenerative diseases

00:37:01.160 and all that stuff. Well, well, so, you know, skeletal muscle is, uh, what one way of looking

00:37:08.780 at it is it's a metabolic sink. So most of the energy that, that, uh, you use has to do with skeletal

00:37:17.500 muscle. Uh, and, and I mean, unless you were, if you were completely sedentary, um, you know,

00:37:25.300 a lot of the energy just goes to, you know, maintaining your basal metabolic rate. Um, but

00:37:31.400 your skeletal muscle uses a lot of energy. It's a sink for, for glucose. Um, and so it is very

00:37:38.900 important in aging and, and the fact that a man who gets to the age of 80 can have lost

00:37:47.800 half the muscle mass he had when he was 20. Um, so that's a huge amount. And so one, one

00:37:56.600 consequence of this is that people become frail and they become, you know, if, if this goes,

00:38:05.300 of course, we're, we're generally talking here about quite elderly people, but if you

00:38:11.280 get frail enough, then you need help living. You know, if you can't get out of your chair

00:38:14.780 by yourself and this happens a lot, um, and then people end up in nursing homes for, for

00:38:20.040 this reason. Um, but as far as your overall health, there's, you know, definitely a correlation

00:38:25.620 with the amount of muscle you have. There's a correlation with mortality. So with people have

00:38:31.960 more muscle mass, they have a lower death rates. Um, so all these things, and then, you

00:38:39.560 know, regarding these changes that, like I was saying that resemble, you know, diabetes

00:38:44.380 or obesity, you can fend these off, um, with having more muscle mass with doing strength

00:38:52.280 training. So as far as anti-aging goes, I consider this, I consider strength training to be fundamental

00:39:00.600 and the other part of this, of the training and with regards to aging is keeping body fat

00:39:11.440 off is very important too. So, you know, there, there's, um, older people generally have, uh,

00:39:22.040 poorer metabolism. So this has actually been looked at. So they, they, you know, uh, for example,

00:39:29.300 insulin sensitivity, which is really important. They look at these older people, they, their

00:39:33.780 insulin sensitivity is not as good as people who are younger. However, when they control

00:39:41.180 for waist size, they find that there's little difference. The difference is, is that these

00:39:46.240 older people put on body fat, put on visceral fat. And if you can keep that off, then your

00:39:53.380 insulin sensitivity is going to be, uh, very nearly that of a younger person.

00:39:59.020 Speaking of insulin sensitivity, what's your take on metformin as an, as an anti-aging compound? Do

00:40:04.020 you take that? Is that something that you recommend?

00:40:05.720 I, I have taken it from time to time. Um, it's one of those things that I can't say that I've noticed

00:40:13.040 anything, uh, uh, you know, that, that it's done. The, so this is interesting. Um, so metformin is an

00:40:22.600 anti-diabetic drug. And so this fits in with what I was just saying as, as people age, they have these

00:40:28.900 manifestations of something that resembles changes towards, towards diabetes. And this also, uh,

00:40:36.320 so metformin anti-diabetic drug fights aging. So it has been shown to extend lifespan in lab animals.

00:40:44.760 Now, the question is in my mind, does metformin do anything for someone who is already lean and fit?

00:40:56.820 Um, you know, or is it merely combating what we, uh, you know, are basically our modern food environment,

00:41:05.800 our modern sedentary environment, you know, what is it doing? My, I've thought about this a lot,

00:41:12.400 read about it a lot. My view is yes, it may, it may do something for older people who are already

00:41:18.480 lean and fit and doing everything. It, it, it obviously like with so many things, it does more

00:41:25.220 for people who need it more. Um, so yeah. So, you know, there's going to be a clinical trial of

00:41:32.100 metformin, um, to, to, uh, to see, to look at its anti-aging effects in humans. Um, you know,

00:41:41.760 one thing about metformin is it's dirt cheap. Um, you, you know, you can pick it up for like five or

00:41:48.820 six cents a tablet. And so, and it's generic. So there's very little incentive for people to study

00:41:57.100 it. Um, you know, in, in human beings, uh, most, most of the work has been, been done in animals,

00:42:02.980 but of course, a lot of people take metformin. It's the most prescribed anti-diabetic drug. So

00:42:08.420 they've looked at a lot of these, uh, populations too. What about, um, other compounds? I was watching

00:42:15.140 this, uh, conversation with, uh, Dr. David Sinclair, I think is his name. Do you know who he is?

00:42:21.500 Yes, I do. Um, Huberman, they were talking about anti-aging and longevity. And I think the two

00:42:26.680 compounds that stood out, um, were resveratrol. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right.

00:42:32.660 Uh, resveratrol. Yeah, that's it. And, uh, something else called NMN, which, um, studied in

00:42:39.960 lab animals, apparently extended their lives, like by something like 30%, like lab mice, like lived to,

00:42:46.220 like two years max is pretty standard. They've ever seen them live, live to like four or five years.

00:42:50.300 Um, what do you know about that stuff? Yeah. Yeah. So, so this, this is interesting too,

00:42:57.140 um, from the same point of view as metformin. So NMN is, uh, Nick, uh, nicotinamide mononucleotide.

00:43:05.660 There's another similar compound. They're not the same, but nicotinamide riboside. These are both

00:43:12.600 forms of vitamin B3, nicotinamide or niacin. And, and so nicotinamide is not exactly the same

00:43:21.260 as niacin, but they are both forms of vitamin B3. Um, so it's, and, and they make a certain

00:43:31.320 compound NAD plus that is important in metabolism that declines with age. So this, this is the basis.

00:43:37.140 I tried taking NR nicotinamide riboside. I tried taking it for a month, didn't notice anything

00:43:43.340 and it was quite expensive. So I stopped. There's also some evidence and the, these, these, these

00:43:50.880 people like, uh, David Sinclair or, uh, Charles Brenner is another one would might dispute me on

00:43:57.000 this, but there's also some evidence that just taking plain old vitamin B3 nicotinamide will do

00:44:02.480 the same thing as far as raising your levels of NAD plus. The other thing is that if you look at what

00:44:10.980 happens when people go on a low carb diet or, or start exercising, um, with intensity is NAD plus

00:44:18.700 levels also go up. So just like with metformin, what we're looking at here, is this really doing,

00:44:27.540 is, is this going to help lean and healthy people who are already lean and healthy who are old like

00:44:34.060 NMN, is it going to do that? You know, I, I don't know. I have to be agnostic on it. I'm, I'm not

00:44:40.680 taking it. Um, and I feel like my diet and exercise is probably keeping my NAD plus levels just as high

00:44:48.960 as they can possibly be. And, and if you take vitamin B3 nicotinamide, plain old, see these

00:44:56.180 supplements like NMN or NR. Um, I, I don't want to attribute, uh, nefarious motives to people,

00:45:06.260 but one reason that people are looking into these kinds of things is because they can make money at

00:45:11.180 it. Right. Okay. So supplement. Sure. Sure. And so there's nothing wrong with making money, but

00:45:17.500 if taking plain old vitamin B3, which is really, really cheap, it works the same. Obviously they're

00:45:26.640 not interested in looking at that. There's a very similar one. Um, a recent article was published on

00:45:33.040 this new, uh, supplement called Rejuvent and Rejuvent. Uh, so they, they've tested it in animals and it

00:45:42.520 extends lifespan. And they did this study on humans where they looked at, um, markers, um,

00:45:49.480 epigenetic markers of aging, and it made, made these markers go down. So they were epigenetically

00:45:56.800 younger from taking Rejuvent. Well, what is Rejuvent? Rejuvent is, uh, a compound called, uh,

00:46:06.260 alpha-ketoglutarate and some vitamins. So alpha-ketoglutarate, alpha-ketoglutarate. You can

00:46:14.180 go on Amazon and buy a big bag like this from bulk supplements for, you know, 20 bucks. Right. So,

00:46:22.380 but who's going to make money at that? So they have to put it into a proprietary formula. Uh, and,

00:46:29.720 and so they can say it's got alpha-ketoglutarate and some vitamins, special vitamins and yeah,

00:46:36.780 give it a name and then test it on humans. And then they can say, see, look, this study shows

00:46:41.380 Rejuvent, um, you know, and then sell it for 50, a hundred bucks a month, whatever. Um, so this dynamic

00:46:49.820 is, is going on a lot. Rapamycin is another one, a very promising anti-aging drug, and it's more

00:46:58.220 expensive than metformin or, or, or Rejuvent or, or NMN or anything like that. However, it's still

00:47:05.840 generic. Nobody has an incentive, you know, to really study it in humans. Um, as far as resveratrol,

00:47:14.160 resveratrol is interesting. I took it for a long time. I'm no longer taking it. Um, resveratrol has,

00:47:22.620 has never been shown to extend lifespan in, uh, in mammals, right? So it's extended lifespan in some

00:47:29.880 lower or so-called lower, lower organisms like worms and flies, but, um, they give it to mice.

00:47:36.260 It help, it helps, um, protect against the effects of a high fat, high sugar diet in mice.

00:47:43.360 So actually said, so sorry, just to, just to correct that. I think he said that if you take

00:47:48.140 it daily, it doesn't have much of an effect, but he said that if you take it every other day,

00:47:53.360 then that's when they saw the longevity effects on the lab mice. Um, well, I don't know about that.

00:48:00.820 The, the one, the, the one big study that came out, uh, maybe 15 years ago that, uh, or 10 years

00:48:09.260 ago that maybe that seemed to result in a lot of people losing interest in resveratrol was that it

00:48:17.220 did not extend lifespan of these mice, that it did protect against the high fat, high sugar diet.

00:48:23.060 But, um, so this is another thing similar, like I was just talking about with metformin or NAD plus

00:48:32.160 it's like, what is this doing? Is this protecting against a horrible food environment, a horrible

00:48:38.700 sedentary environment, or is it really fighting aging? Um, disentangling these things is difficult,

00:48:47.260 um, because everybody's living in this environment. Um, and pretty much, you know, I mean, over 80%

00:48:55.680 of the U S population is either overweight or obese and it gets worse as it's like, it's like about 80%

00:49:02.980 now. It, it is. Yes. And, and, you know, a lot of the rest of them are skinny fat. So, um, it's,

00:49:10.240 yeah, yeah. I mean, only, only, uh, one study showed that only 12% of the U S population was

00:49:19.420 metabolically healthy. That's horrible. Yeah. And they're cramming all these jabs in everybody's

00:49:25.620 throats and you don't do these, you don't get to go anywhere, but they never say anything about losing

00:49:29.760 body fat or eating properly. That that's right. That's right. This, this is something that I've

00:49:36.400 talked about quite a bit over the last year and a half. I mean, uh, obesity, diabetes, those two,

00:49:44.280 along with pure chronological age are the biggest risk factors for having severe COVID disease and

00:49:52.220 also vitamin D deficiency. Uh, I mean, vitamin D, um, you know, you can, you can, again, it's dirt

00:50:01.500 cheap, just like some of these things we were talking about and nobody's mentioning it.

00:50:06.800 Um, I gotta ask you though, like, you know, be specific. Cause I mean, you look good for your age.

00:50:12.180 I mean, it's, it's, it says on your Twitter, you're 66 and your skin doesn't look 66. I mean,

00:50:17.460 people might even argue watching this, like I'm in my late forties that we look the same practically

00:50:22.460 as far as the skin condition. Like, what do you take as far as, um, supplements for anti-aging

00:50:28.460 for yourself? Is there anything that you rely on at this point or is it just, you know, lots of water,

00:50:33.800 good diet and exercise and sunlight? I, I do take some supplements. Um, as far as, as far as my skin,

00:50:41.240 I guess, uh, you know, genetics again, probably has something to do with it. My, my, my mother had

00:50:48.360 nice skin into a very old age. Um, but I do take some supplements. I do credit diet and exercise with

00:50:59.640 a lot of, um, you know, what I look like and how I feel is certainly the most important thing.

00:51:05.380 Uh, people, people, and, and I'll tell you about the supplements, but, uh, people want to,

00:51:13.120 um, you know, there's this idea of adding something versus subtracting something. So,

00:51:19.440 you know, people want a magic pill, um, something to take that's going to, um, you know, um, negate

00:51:28.820 their bad habits or, you know, anything else they're doing, um, rather than, you know, subtracting

00:51:36.020 what they're, they're doing that, that isn't helping them. So, um, I mean, this phenomenon is

00:51:43.260 not just in the world of supplements or something like that. I mean, every doctor deals with it,

00:51:49.000 right? So, you know, somebody, somebody, uh, you know, goes to the doctor and the doctor says,

00:51:54.800 well, you've got diabetes, um, and, and the patient says, okay, doc, you know, give me a pill

00:52:00.300 rather than, you know, change the conditions that led them into diabetes. So this, this is just,

00:52:07.560 you know, everywhere. That's what, that's what people are like. So anyway, yes, diet and exercise.

00:52:14.500 Um, I take, uh, I take baby aspirin, um, and I have been for quite a while. So there,

00:52:21.760 there's some good evidence for that. If you talk about it online, there's all kinds of controversy,

00:52:26.560 but I've decided that it's good for me. Um, and, and also, by the way, with baby aspirin,

00:52:33.680 let me just add, there can be serious side effects. So I, you know, I don't tell people,

00:52:39.300 yeah, go, go ahead, take, take aspirin. You know, it's something that, um, basically should be

00:52:44.560 talked over with a doctor and decide whether that's a good thing to do. Um,

00:52:49.640 I take magnesium. So magnesium is really important. And this is a supplement that probably

00:52:57.780 most everybody could use. Is there a version that you like, theonate, chalate? I, I take,

00:53:03.900 uh, magnesium citrate. Um, there are some other good ones like glycinate is a good one. I think

00:53:10.320 theonate's the one that, that, that bridges the blood brain barrier. Like that's better for your

00:53:14.460 brain, especially for sleep too. I, I believe that is correct. Yes. Um, so vast numbers of people in

00:53:21.640 the United States are magnesium deficient. Um, and this has to do with a lot of things like,

00:53:26.820 for example, monocrop agriculture is leech magnesium out of the soil. Uh, and, and so they're not getting

00:53:34.120 as much in their, in their diets. People used to get a lot of magnesium from drinking hard water,

00:53:39.180 which they don't anymore. And, um, then other things like caffeine and alcohol can deplete

00:53:46.500 magnesium. So there's all kinds of reasons. So I do take magnesium and I feel that most people

00:53:51.880 would, would benefit from it. Um, what else I take, uh, I take vitamin D. So this is something

00:54:00.160 I've been doing a long time. I take 5,000. I use a vitamin D every day, except maybe, you know,

00:54:05.560 in the summer when I'm getting some sun. Um, so sunscreen when you're outside in the sun

00:54:10.700 or, or no, no, no, I don't. Uh, I don't use sunscreen. Most of the sunscreens out there

00:54:16.660 are basically toxic brews. Um, and there are some that are, that are better. You can find

00:54:23.140 them, but the average is the space ones. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And oddly enough, um, what

00:54:29.460 is her name? Gwyneth Paltrow, I think has some sunscreens that are like pretty

00:54:35.460 good. Um, if, if I'm remembering correctly, but they're, you know, you, you got to seek

00:54:40.820 those out. If you just get regular sunscreen, it's no, you don't want to do that. Best sunscreen

00:54:45.220 is shade clothing and a hat or suntan. Yeah. Yeah. Or, or suntan. But I mean, people, people

00:54:53.080 say, well, you know, people ask me, well, I'm going to be out in the sun all day long.

00:54:57.380 What do I do? I say, well, put on a long sleeve shirt and wear a hat, you know? Um, so, um,

00:55:03.660 yeah, so vitamin D, um, I take taurine, which is an amino acid, which has some good anti-aging

00:55:12.040 effects. Um, I, over the last couple of years. What are the anti-aging effects of taurine?

00:55:17.300 Cause I understood it just to be a cell volume volumizer or like an energy source. Um, it, it

00:55:22.440 functions as an antioxidant in much the same way as glutathione does or somewhat the same

00:55:29.240 way. Yes. And so we, um, our cells have the ability to make taurine and we get some in our

00:55:35.580 diet, but it does, uh, deplete with age. Um, so it, that, that's something that I've, I've

00:55:42.780 found useful for me. Here's another one. Citrulline. This, this is a really interesting supplement.

00:55:49.920 Um, citrulline promotes the, the production of nitric oxide in blood vessels. So this is a

00:55:59.220 very important. Nitric oxide, um, allows, uh, blood vessels to expand, uh, to dilate. And so this is,

00:56:08.460 this is a really important thing. There's good evidence that all of this, the dilation and so on,

00:56:14.340 or lack of it is involved in coronary artery disease and so on. So citrulline, um, helps promote

00:56:21.820 nitric oxide, uh, production. Um, so that's a good one. And, um,

00:56:27.400 it's good for jib pumps. It's also good for bedroom pumps too.

00:56:31.160 Yep. Exactly. Exactly. That's what it does. Yeah. The, you can, you can find a citrulline

00:56:37.200 added to, you know, pre-workout supplements and stuff. A big supplement bag off Amazon. That's

00:56:41.900 the one that I've bought in the past. Exactly. Yeah. Right. Right. So, um, you know, that about

00:56:48.760 covers it. Okay. That's interesting. Um, I want to ask you a little bit about peptides too,

00:56:53.660 because, um, we were talking about, um, sun protection, stuff like that. And I use a peptide

00:56:58.680 this summer, uh, called melanotan too. Are you familiar with, uh, peptides? I, I, yes, somewhat.

00:57:05.440 And that, uh, melanotan, you know, is basically, uh, yeah, it's something, something I know a bit

00:57:13.260 about, but, but, uh, you know, other than that, what do you think of these protein based peptides

00:57:18.580 as far as, you know, use in regular life, uh, you know, for optimization, health optimization,

00:57:24.420 like all that stuff? Well, um, I, I'm going to, I'll, I'll give you my, my opinion on this,

00:57:32.260 you know, and my, my impression is that a lot of it is kind of, you know, wanting to get same

00:57:44.360 effect or some of the effect is anabolic steroids. Um, and anabolic steroids are basically,

00:57:54.780 uh, they're pro aging. All right. So, so if someone were, you know, to take, um, you know,

00:58:03.760 some, something, uh, you know, I'm not, oh, oh, current with what everybody's doing now,

00:58:08.760 but Diana ball or, you know, something like that, um, you know, to get big in the gym,

00:58:14.760 this is, this is definitely pro aging. There is a fundamental trade-off in aging between,

00:58:21.740 between growth and longevity. So for example, the bigger, uh, with animals within species,

00:58:32.240 the bigger an animal is the shorter its lifespan. Um, so for probably the best example is dogs.

00:58:39.740 So little dogs live a long time. Big dogs don't. Um, humans too. Like there's not a lot of big

00:58:46.060 men that live into their eighties. Most guys that live past their eighties are shorter. They're more

00:58:51.220 compact. They have a lighter frame. Exactly. Exactly. Right. I mean, um, like big men don't live long.

00:58:58.060 Yeah. I mean, like basketball players, I, I, you know, reading something about them, it was very,

00:59:03.880 you know, it was poignant to read where these, these guys, these, these former NBA players,

00:59:12.060 they're like in their sixties and they're like, well, it's all coming into an end here because I'm

00:59:16.620 six foot 11 or something like that. Um, and, and yes, I, I mean, uh, a few years back there was a,

00:59:26.140 there was a lot of publicity about this, uh, uh, Frenchman, uh, Robert Marchand. And he was,

00:59:33.060 uh, like, you know, he was over a hundred, he was like 105 years old or something. He's out riding

00:59:39.220 his bicycle and, you know, setting these records. Of course, I suppose, you know, setting that there

00:59:44.360 aren't too many other 105 year olds out there. So setting the record might not be that tough, but

00:59:48.360 in any case, he was out there doing this kind of stuff. And so I looked into it a little further

00:59:53.400 and it turned out that Robert Marchand was five feet tall. Uh, you know, and, and so that, you

00:59:59.800 know, there you have another example, this, this centenarians are shorter and, uh, you know,

01:00:05.800 generally speaking. So, you know, in a roundabout way, the steroids thing, if it's making you bigger,

01:00:13.780 um, you know, or something like that, exactly like burning the candle at, at, at both ends,

01:00:19.720 there was, uh, there was a, um, video that I watched, um, on this channel and he's kind of a

01:00:25.440 longevity expert and, and, and he brought some data, uh, on Unix, um, to the table and, uh, you know,

01:00:33.720 collected all this information. And apparently it's been studied quite a lot over the last few

01:00:38.640 hundred years. And it's, and it's, and it's very, um, uh, I think the longest study they,

01:00:43.480 uh, pulled out of it was from Korea, but there was, um, I think monks or something and they were

01:00:49.300 all Unix and they lived considerably longer, um, than, than the average male at the time,

01:00:54.800 something like 30 or 35%, like, like that's a ridiculous amount of, of time. So they found out

01:01:01.880 that testosterone itself in the body, I think it's called nephrotoxicity to, which basically

01:01:07.820 means that it's toxic to your kidneys. Um, and your kidneys are real important for filtering

01:01:12.660 your blood and, you know, getting rid of, you know, fluids out of your body and all that sort

01:01:15.620 of stuff. So, um, I mean, that's one of the reasons why I don't do bodybuilding dosages of

01:01:20.620 testosterone. Like I'm doing 80 milligrams a week. It's, it's very low dose. Right. So I don't want

01:01:26.280 to carry around like 250 pounds, you know, worth of muscle. It's like, I'm good. Right. You know,

01:01:30.880 like I'm 210 pounds. I'm six foot two. Like I'm a pretty healthy weight. Right, right. Exactly. Um,

01:01:37.780 the, the, you know, things like, uh, also things like growth hormone, you know, same, same idea.

01:01:45.420 Right. So, I mean, they, you know, animals that lack growth hormone receptors live longer. Um,

01:01:52.180 you know, this kind of thing. Yeah. That's interesting. Um, okay. So as far as peptides

01:01:56.720 go, you, you don't know a lot about them or I, I, I'm going to say, yeah, I don't know a lot

01:02:01.300 about them. I, I think what I just told you is probably the extent of my knowledge.

01:02:05.160 All right. Um, what have we, what have we missed that we haven't talked about yet? Um,

01:02:11.420 you got about an hour into this. I figure we got about another 30 minutes left. Is there anything

01:02:14.940 else that we should cover? Um, well, let's, well, let's, let's see. So, so yeah, we, how about this?

01:02:22.780 How about this? Cause there's something that always comes up with that guys. It's like,

01:02:25.380 how do I maximize my experiences as a, as a seasoned man in the bedroom? Like what tips do you have for

01:02:31.440 guys on sexual performance? Well, so, uh, probably, probably the, the, the biggest tip is PDE five

01:02:40.240 inhibitors, AKA Viagra, Cialis, Levitra, um, those things. So what they do is very similar to what

01:02:49.280 citrulline does. They increase nitric oxide. Um, and, and the, there's actually an, an upside to this.

01:02:58.100 So these PDE five inhibitors, um, like Viagra have, uh, they have a lot of potential to treat a lot of

01:03:07.920 diseases, uh, for instance, both heart disease and cancer and other things, maybe Alzheimer's. So the

01:03:14.780 potential, what you see when some, when some drug or other intervention, what, uh, you know, be it

01:03:24.880 physical exercise or calorie restrict or anything affects all diseases that tends to mean that it is

01:03:33.560 slowing aging, um, because the, the, the biggest, uh, you know, aging is the biggest factor in chronic

01:03:42.500 disease. So, I mean, for example, heart disease, um, you know, heart disease is not seen in very many

01:03:49.840 people, uh, say under 60, um, but over 65, 70, you know, lots and lots of people have it same with

01:03:59.720 cancer, you know, some, something like, uh, you know, 75% of cases of cancer are people over 65 years

01:04:06.080 old. Um, and, and, and, and, and, you know, dementia, Alzheimer's disease come totally rare in, in somebody

01:04:14.020 under, let's say 55, very rare. So these are all diseases of aging. So if you find that a drug or

01:04:22.520 intervention affects multiple diseases like this, then that's the clue that it is fighting aging.

01:04:29.280 So these PDE5 inhibitors seem to be having that effect. Now I, I have postulated that,

01:04:39.540 uh, you know, somewhere, you know, someone is going to come along and do an experiment on lab animals

01:04:46.660 and give them Viagra and find out that they live longer because they're taking it. Um, to my knowledge,

01:04:52.320 no one has done that, um, yet, but, but I think that could happen. So, um, the, these drugs are,

01:05:01.220 you know, very interesting for that reason. They're, they're, um, you know, the risk benefit ratio seems

01:05:08.400 to be very good. Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. There was, um, uh, I think there was an ebook. Um, do you know

01:05:16.540 who Jay Campbell is? Oh yeah. Yeah. Buddy, buddy of mine actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think

01:05:21.740 Jay was talking about his, um, top three stack was, uh, five milligram daily Cialis, Metformin

01:05:28.280 and testosterone, you know, for like a longevity stack, testosterone at therapeutic don't like

01:05:32.800 low dosages obviously. But yeah, I thought that was interesting. Um, all right. Well,

01:05:38.440 I want to ask you about, um, some personal stuff. Cause I mean, like as a seasoned guy that's been

01:05:43.080 around, I know that you followed my stuff. I wanted to get your take on, um, you know, that like some of

01:05:48.120 the stuff that I talk about, you know, around, um, you know, getting better results with women and all

01:05:52.420 that and life. I think you said that you've been through a divorce as well. Definitely have. Yes.

01:05:57.720 Yeah. What tips do you have for guys from, you know, from your own experience there?

01:06:02.260 Well, I think, um, you know, I think self-confidence is really supreme. This is something

01:06:09.840 that I've learned about, um, maybe, maybe the hard way and, and maybe only relatively recently in life.

01:06:18.400 Um, and you know, what, what, one of the themes of, you know, what you, what you talk about that,

01:06:25.740 that I like is, um, make, making yourself the center, um, making your, I'm not sure exactly how

01:06:34.220 you put it first, your own mental point of origin. Exactly. Exactly. Right. And, um,

01:06:39.840 rather than, you know, thinking that, um, getting a woman into your life is going to solve your

01:06:47.260 problems. Um, and I, and I think that I think exacerbates them. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. So

01:06:54.340 I think, uh, I think that's, that's something I've learned, you know, another thing, this is,

01:07:02.180 this is tangentially related and this is something that I talk about on, uh, you know,

01:07:09.640 on Twitter is the pack of lies that we've all been sold. Um, you know, and this has definitely,

01:07:18.260 you know, there's, there, there's a set of lies that come with relationships and marriage and so on.

01:07:26.060 Um, there's a lot of lies that come with, uh, education, making a living, and of course,

01:07:34.240 health and fitness, these things, uh, are, um, there, the, the people who, the people who are,

01:07:44.920 are telling you these things, um, have ulterior motives, let's say. And, and, and, and let me just

01:07:52.300 even say without necessarily bad faith for many of them, but, but they do. I mean, you know,

01:07:59.680 the adage, don't ask a barber if you need a haircut, um, you know, don't ask a guidance counselor if you

01:08:08.000 need more education. I mean, they will say yes every time. And it's not just the guidance counselor

01:08:14.720 in particular. It, it comes from society as a whole. Everybody's got to go to college, all this

01:08:20.320 kind of thing. Work, um, thing, you know, okay. Things are very different now for sure. I mean,

01:08:29.160 I was 40 years old the first time I used the internet, so it wasn't around. Um, so things,

01:08:37.180 things are definitely different for a lot of guys, but you know, the idea of going to a nine to five

01:08:46.760 every day, Monday through Friday, it's something you hate because you've got to make a living and

01:08:53.120 that's just the way it is. Um, it's, it's something, let's just say most men should really think deeply

01:09:01.160 about this. Um, I, my, my personal experiences, I look back over my life, my career, for example,

01:09:10.860 and a whole lot of it was spent doing things I did, did not like. Um, there are definitely worse

01:09:19.020 jobs. I'm not going to, you know, go on about how it was so terrible, but it was, um, not very

01:09:25.380 interesting for the most part and, um, often stressful and so on. Why was I doing that? Well,

01:09:32.620 you know, maybe I didn't see any alternative. Um, fortunately I do now, you know, so I, I'm not

01:09:39.680 saying there are set answers here, but I think that men, um, women too really should be looking at

01:09:47.360 this idea that there's this defined path through their life that is all set for them. And that's

01:09:54.820 the best way. Um, I, I, you know, no longer believe that retirement. There's another thing. Um,

01:10:03.140 it's my impression that most men retire because they hate their jobs. Um, why would you retire if

01:10:12.540 you're doing something fulfilling, making good money, all this kind of thing? You know, what are

01:10:17.280 you, what are you going to do? Go fishing or sit in front of Netflix? I mean, guys will work till

01:10:22.940 whatever it is like 65. And then most people live, I think it's an average of 11 years after

01:10:27.820 retirement before they die. So you're basically spending your entire life doing something you hate

01:10:32.280 to quit one day to get 11 years in a body. That's not as healthy as it would have been,

01:10:37.540 you know, years back if you use it for other things. Right. Absolutely. Uh, it, it, retirement

01:10:44.140 is a trap that way. And I think it's a trap. A lot of people die shortly after I can't see myself

01:10:49.980 ever retiring. Like people say like, why do you keep working? Like you don't need to work. You don't

01:10:53.140 need money. It's like, cause I like doing what I'm doing. Like I like, I like having these

01:10:56.000 conversations. Absolutely. Um, I, I feel very much the same. Why would I want to retire? What,

01:11:05.060 what am I going to do? Um, this is, I, I, I'm very fortunate in that in these last few years,

01:11:14.920 in these last three to five or, or a few more years, I've found something that I really like doing

01:11:22.500 that, um, I'm able to do every day that, yeah, it's, it's, it's fulfilling. I like it. Why,

01:11:30.020 why would I stop? Um, how did you find that? How, how did I find it? Yeah. You, you mean,

01:11:37.220 how did I find what I'm doing or like, I mean, it sounds like you're basically defining what I would

01:11:43.220 call your purpose, right? Like I tell guys to like, get on a grind, find a purpose, like put a little

01:11:48.080 dent in the universe, like, you know, have some sort of impact on people's lives. And it sounds like

01:11:52.000 you found that, I mean, could you, could you point to anything? Is there, are there things that led up

01:11:57.180 to that? Like, how would you define that? Cause a lot of, a lot of younger guys out there, they're

01:12:00.680 like, well, I don't really know what I want to do. Right. Um, so, you know, what led me into this

01:12:08.680 was of course, you know, what I talked about before about my, you know, my health and fitness journey,

01:12:13.520 but when, when you are, uh, you know, when you're working in an office or, you know, in my case,

01:12:22.940 working in healthcare, you're a cog in the machine and you're, you're definitely replaceable.

01:12:30.300 Um, when you're doing something that you like, uh, you, you are, you are not, you know, replaceable.

01:12:37.420 You, what you said about finding a purpose, I think this is really all important. I think it's

01:12:45.440 about, uh, well, the, the, the term, uh, I often think of is self-actualization. So you, I'm sure you

01:12:54.140 know about Maslow's hierarchy where you have the basic needs and it goes on up and you've got self-actualization.

01:13:00.400 I feel like this is something that I have looked for my life. I felt that I had things, I was able

01:13:08.960 to do things, think things that should come out. Um, but, but I was unable to do that until I, you

01:13:17.760 know, I got into, into, um, you know, what I'm doing now. So having a sense of purpose is all

01:13:24.200 important. That's why retirement is so bad because people lose their sense of purpose. Um,

01:13:29.220 so yeah, um, how, you know, how someone can find that. Well, I, I'm less sure about that. We would

01:13:37.040 require some experimentation. Um, if there's just going on a walkabout and sort of, yeah, like you

01:13:42.720 said, like experimenting, doing things like a buddy of mine once said, you know, in the absence of

01:13:47.880 clarity, do something like, don't like, don't just sit there milling over it in the absence of just

01:13:52.420 start moving in a direction because you're going to, you're going to walk up against a wall. Okay.

01:13:57.000 That's not it. You know, can you walk through the wall? Can you find a way around it? Can you

01:14:00.560 climb over it? No. Okay. Well, let's go over in this direction, right? That's how you do it. It's,

01:14:04.200 it's not having somebody, you know, hand it to you on a silver platter that says, Hey, Bill, you know,

01:14:09.680 here's your purpose now. So go out and do it. You'll be, and you'll feel fulfilled. Like you'll

01:14:13.040 reach the pinnacle of Maslow's hierarchy. It's, it's just, just start doing stuff, right? You know,

01:14:17.920 find stuff that you like and start doing it.

01:14:19.460 Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, in, in, in my line of work, I I've talked to a number of people

01:14:28.500 who've helped me out as far as the business side of things. And one of the things that has been said

01:14:34.260 to me a lot is don't overthink it, just do it. And so, you know, if you make a mistake, okay,

01:14:41.260 you make a mistake, you correct it and move on. But you, but just thinking about what I'm going to do

01:14:47.140 and then, uh, uh, bringing up imaginary problems that haven't happened yet. Uh, like what, what do

01:14:53.800 I do if this thing happens? Well, you know, worry about that when it does happen. Um, so yeah, I

01:15:00.400 think, I think just beginning to do things, if somebody is good at something and they like it

01:15:06.100 and they can figure out a way to make a living at it, that's obviously, you know, the best ways to go.

01:15:12.500 I mean, like you figured it out. There's a lot of people that don't even understand the basics and

01:15:15.920 you're one of those, you know, guys, you know, like you said, that you just started using the

01:15:19.080 internet when you're in, you know, 40 or so. So, um, there's there, the, the barrier to

01:15:26.660 video production, writing a book to, uh, setting a newsletter, it's never been lower. You don't need

01:15:33.900 anybody's permission to do these things today. It's, it's completely permissionless, you know,

01:15:38.160 in practicality. I got one more question for you before we go. Um, you mentioned that you like

01:15:42.700 to do a lot of research. What, what did you come across in your lifetime? That was like,

01:15:48.080 uh, I like to call these a frying pan to the forehead moment. Like, Holy cow, this is, this

01:15:52.860 is profound. Like what, what piece of data, what research did you come across that really

01:15:57.820 changes the direction in the way that you live and do things? Um, well, uh, I'm, I'm not sure

01:16:07.000 that changed the, the way that I live and do things except in, you know, minor ways. But,

01:16:12.800 uh, I came across the relationship of iron to, to aging and this is important for men.

01:16:20.600 So I, I wrote a book about it and I've actually written a scholarly article about it that was

01:16:25.960 just published a couple months ago. Um, so, uh, uh, you know, iron and aging men accumulate

01:16:32.520 iron, uh, as they get older women, much less so. Um, and, and this may very well bear on

01:16:41.520 the fact that, uh, men don't live as long as women. Um, so yeah, so I've, I've written

01:16:47.800 a lot about that. I, I suppose that's, uh, maybe not, not a mind blowing revelation, but

01:16:53.480 and, and I certainly didn't discover it myself. I've just, uh, put a lot of it together in,

01:16:58.860 in, uh, in a form that people can understand. Um, but it's certainly in a, uh, uh, a non-intuitive

01:17:06.020 result that people were not looking at. And, um, it seems to be quite important.

01:17:12.760 So having higher iron levels is directly correlated to a shorter, sicker life.

01:17:19.640 Correct. It is. It is. And, um, so I mean, a question for you then. So I, I usually do like

01:17:25.260 a blood dump every four months or so. Like I'll go and donate blood. Um, one of the things

01:17:30.080 my, my, my old doctor used to say, I've got a new doctor now, but one of the old things

01:17:33.180 that he used to say is that, you know, you don't want your blood to get rusty. And I think

01:17:36.220 he was referencing iron. So, so getting rid of blood like that sort of, sort of helps

01:17:42.120 with that. Like it helps solve that problem. Right. And I think, I, I think I noticed that

01:17:46.920 on your, your post where you were getting that IV that you had had a therapeutic

01:17:52.260 phlebotomy at the same time. Right. So yes. Um, so iron is stored in the body. It's, it's

01:17:59.260 totally necessary for life. Um, but we accumulate too much of it. Most of the iron in your body

01:18:04.920 is in your blood, in your red blood cells. So when you donate blood or do a therapeutic

01:18:09.880 phlebotomy, you're getting rid of a lot of iron. Then when you make the new red blood

01:18:14.140 cells, uh, the body takes iron from the rest of your body and makes new red blood cells

01:18:20.080 out of it. So therefore your overall body iron level goes down. Um, their, their, uh, you

01:18:27.100 know, blood donors have, um, lower mortality levels, uh, lower mortality rates, lower levels

01:18:34.340 of heart disease and so on. So, uh, yes, this, this is how you do it. Um, women naturally do

01:18:41.160 it before menopause, after menopause, their iron levels tend to go up after a few years to

01:18:47.160 the same level as that of men, but men in their forties have iron levels approximately

01:18:55.420 four to five times higher than women of the same age. And they have much higher rates of

01:19:00.820 heart disease and cancer and so on. Um, so yes. Um, and, and there, there are some, some

01:19:07.840 good indications that I've theorized about in my recent article that iron is directly involved

01:19:14.500 in aging and that keeping iron levels in, in a low normal level can, um, slow aging.

01:19:22.260 That's good to know. I appreciate that. Um, let's just throw your Twitter up. So best place

01:19:27.220 to find you, uh, you mentioned is on Twitter. So, uh, it's man, M A N G A N one 50. Uh, give

01:19:35.120 him a follow. He also has a link, uh, for one-on-one coaching. What sort of one-on-one coaching

01:19:40.320 do you do again? Yeah, I do health and fitness coaching. I've got a 12 week, uh, program and

01:19:46.500 they can contact me for further details. Um, I've coached hundreds of people, most, mostly

01:19:53.600 men, probably 90% men, a few women in there, but yes. Perfect. All right, Petey. Thanks for

01:19:59.060 joining me. Appreciate it. Um, just stick around for a second after I end the broadcast guys

01:20:02.500 hit the like button. Uh, I'm going to do a cast tomorrow, just kind of like a year end wrap

01:20:06.940 up. Just, you know, what all went down in 2021. So I'll create the event, um, later on

01:20:11.700 this afternoon and schedule it. And so check that out for tomorrow. Thanks, Petey.

01:20:15.540 Pleasure, Rich.

054 - P.D. Mangan, How To Lose Fat & Build Muscle At Any Age

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