Playing to Win - 071 - Jack Donovan

00:00:00.000 all right guys what is up back for a playing to win episode uh number 71 with my uh good

00:00:10.080 friend jack donovan how you doing brother i'm doing all right it's been a while man it's been

00:00:15.300 a while um you are one of the top dog authors that i've been recommended to my audience my

00:00:22.460 community for years now i've got some huge fans in my group that have read pretty much all your

00:00:26.280 books now so um i'm a big fan i think i got uh at least two or three of them just on my shelf down

00:00:31.700 over there i haven't gotten your new one yet um i describe you a ton of different ways and i know

00:00:38.080 that you're constantly evolving as a man how do you how do you give guys the elevator pitch on who

00:00:44.300 jack donovan is today well i guess i i probably would have resisted it first but i am kind of just

00:00:50.080 a philosopher i think for regular guys at this point because a lot of a lot of you guys you know

00:00:54.560 you tell them how to get laid or to to make money and i i'm bad at both of those things so like uh

00:00:59.880 you know i i talk more about how to think about life i think in a big picture and think about uh

00:01:06.360 now i talk more a lot about more mythology and so forth but uh i guess my claim to fame is that

00:01:11.820 you know i wrote the way of men and i did a really good job of defining masculinity which i think is

00:01:17.660 important it wasn't as important in 2012 as it seems today when people can't even define what a man

00:01:23.840 and a woman are yeah uh so i think that it was it's important it's kind of foundational for a lot

00:01:29.140 of other men's authors and so forth so that was my big piece of the puzzle i think and what brought

00:01:35.660 you to to that book to writing that book the way of men well i mean like a lot of people i you know

00:01:41.980 thought that you know masculinity was maybe not so important like as we're told uh that uh you know

00:01:48.980 masculinity was not so important that it was outdated and whatever and uh you know i probably

00:01:53.420 as a young man i probably believed a lot of that and then i started to explore it as an as an in my

00:01:59.060 30s and uh think about but you know because i'd lived life and worked at jobs and so forth and i'm

00:02:04.480 like the world isn't the way they say it is and uh so i started talking really positive about

00:02:09.620 positively about masculinity and the thing is is that uh my some of the early criticisms i got was that i

00:02:16.040 wasn't defining it very well so uh the way of men was my attempt to define it as well as i could

00:02:21.400 do you think women can tell men how to be men there's a there's a very loud group of uh i don't

00:02:29.200 know influencers media personalities and all sort of thing that that are constantly trying to tell men

00:02:33.540 how to be men and what a man really is what are your thoughts on that absolutely not

00:02:38.040 uh yeah women have no business in that discussion whatsoever men have always defined masculinity for

00:02:45.940 each other whether it's in a group or you know in a larger society uh you know men get to say what

00:02:52.200 masculinity is uh you know if you want women to be able to say what femininity is men have to say what

00:02:57.180 masculinity is and and honestly you know there's a separate set of interests there obviously you know

00:03:03.380 when women define masculinity it's whatever women want it to be it's not uh what men need or what men

00:03:08.960 you know know about themselves it's just what women want a man to be and that could be anything from

00:03:14.960 you know you know shut up and do what i say to uh you know to the ones who want them to be the strong

00:03:22.260 alpha guy or whatever but it's it's really about what they want for men not uh what men are

00:03:28.380 yeah that's um that's become painfully obvious because i mean if you deal with a 20 year old

00:03:34.260 chick her definition of masculinity is different from a 40 year old chick that's got three kids in

00:03:39.720 tow and divorce right you know what what she's going to define is going to be the reliable guy with a

00:03:44.880 minivan and a good steady job and you know blah blah blah or as a 20 year old it's like can we go to

00:03:49.900 a visa this weekend on your private jet and party you know yeah um the the book became a hit have you

00:04:00.640 figured out why like is there like a secret sauce to why that book became such a big hit with the uh

00:04:06.020 guys out there well i think it was the right book at the right time and it was written i think there's

00:04:12.220 there are a lot of books about masculinity and i still feel like i have a lock on this uh to a certain

00:04:16.420 degree because we're seeing this again now is that when men talk about masculinity they talk about it

00:04:21.700 in a tribal way which is what men do uh but they you know want to spin it in their own direction

00:04:26.980 you know like the religious guys want to make masculinity all about jesus or whatever and then

00:04:31.340 there's other guys who want to make it about whatever they're about and i really just tried

00:04:36.340 to do my best like masculinity isn't about i'm not the exemplar of what masculinity is i just want to

00:04:41.420 understand what it is and so for all the different guys who are in different walks of life i mean i

00:04:47.100 have special forces guys and guys who are like day one week one uh maybe i should you know do something

00:04:53.740 masculine you know like i have the whole gamut because they can all relate to that i think the

00:04:59.180 strongest soundbite that stood out for me in the book was the way of men as a way of way of the gang

00:05:03.080 can you explain that a little bit more sure yeah i mean i think that that's again it comes to

00:05:08.380 masculinity being defined by other men uh and that's i think one of the big innovations about

00:05:13.980 the the way of men as i looked about like men select each other when you hear uh you know

00:05:18.860 people talk about you know evolutionary psychologists and so forth they talk about masculinity and a lot

00:05:25.420 of times they were talking about it as if we were like two elks fighting for females or something like

00:05:29.860 that and that's not really men are social animals and uh you know to really be you know to understand who

00:05:36.160 you are as a man you're in a group of other men and that's our whole evolutionary history is like

00:05:41.440 groups of men have to go hunt together they have to go fight together they have to rely on each other

00:05:46.520 so they select each other i mean the easy way you know talk about a football team or whatever but men

00:05:51.440 select each other uh and uh from that selection is what women get to choose from so you know it's like

00:05:57.760 if men prove themselves to each other they're already high status men and then women can select from that

00:06:02.080 uh but i think that this idea that this gang is what actually defines masculinity and i was being

00:06:07.760 provocative obviously like with using the word gang uh but i mean that's really what it is it's a group

00:06:12.920 of men who all share the same values and they're all going to judge each other and uh you know becoming

00:06:18.720 a man it means being accepted by that group of men whoever it is yeah i've always said that men compete

00:06:25.320 in women's shoes and i think it's a lost art and men have forgotten that they have to compete and

00:06:28.960 you know hold each other accountable um the way you talk about gangs and the last time that i saw you

00:06:34.360 was years ago now in real life and i think you were still in oregon and you had that plot of land uh

00:06:39.700 that i believe you called wild gang um and you basically had a tribe of men and you you know would

00:06:45.540 get together on weekends and do shit and build buildings and compete and fight and box and stuff

00:06:49.320 like that i mean like your instagram timeline was filled with that for a while then you moved to

00:06:54.620 utah now you're in arizona do you set up a uh a chapter a tribe a gang i mean do you aim to build

00:07:01.000 that in every area that you moved to well i mean at the time i was part of actually a larger group

00:07:07.940 and because i didn't think that i could start it by myself i was just beginning and you know it's

00:07:12.480 always hard to start the cool kids club until you already have the cool kids club you know that's

00:07:15.840 kind of how how it works uh so you know i joined another group which that didn't work out

00:07:20.860 eventually for a lot of reasons and then um you know i then i kept the land because it was mine

00:07:27.320 and uh had another group of people who you know kept coming out and now actually the guy who was

00:07:32.440 kind of helping me uh he uh he actually bought the land for me and he has his own group so he's still

00:07:39.340 running bald gang and i'm still i was joking with him this morning uh he's still a really good friend

00:07:43.640 of mine and a lot of those guys that out there now are um utah would have been a hard place to do

00:07:50.020 that i think for a lot of reasons um here i moved here specifically because i have a

00:07:55.400 i mean i looked at many places but i moved to arizona and where i moved to in arizona i moved

00:08:01.360 because i have a jiu-jitsu coach uh who has been a friend and reader of mine for many years

00:08:05.980 and uh i was like well in real life i mean i'm an author i you know i i cannot talk to anyone for days

00:08:13.160 uh so i want to be you know that's where i'm going to meet other guys to hang out with

00:08:17.860 is is in jiu-jitsu that's where i go interact with people because otherwise i could sit in my

00:08:22.000 house and never talk to anybody uh so i'm like i'm going to situate myself near that gym and it's

00:08:27.360 been really cool it's like it's been cool to like get to know him a little bit there we've already

00:08:30.420 uh hung out a little bit and uh you know he has a great school going and so you know that's where

00:08:35.160 i get to meet people uh whether or not i want to start a group the thing is when you start a group

00:08:38.700 and give it a name then it becomes a target uh so i have learned that lesson and uh because of being

00:08:44.020 kind of a high profile figure in that particular way uh i'm very wary of of that because then you're

00:08:49.240 also responsible for all the other people in that group but uh men who don't aren't high profile in

00:08:54.720 that way you know and you see this all around the world like men are creating groups of men which is

00:09:00.140 fantastic and exactly what they should do yeah i've got one so um when it comes down to the whole

00:09:05.620 targeting thing because i find that interesting um actually let me circle back to that because i got

00:09:11.320 a couple questions here from my boy moff he's kind of like one of your big uh fans he's a

00:09:15.560 recovering toxic masculinity believer he asked he asked dan over here uh does violence still have

00:09:20.220 a place in modern tribes as a means of settling disputes you know funny we were having this

00:09:25.100 conversation with i have this telegram chat with just a few guys who have been like i've been in

00:09:29.420 contact with for years and we talked about this the other day and uh you know it's funny it's kind

00:09:34.180 of like debate in the way that debate doesn't actually reveal truth it reveals debating skill

00:09:39.440 you know like you can be really good at debating and be wrong but like you're going to sound like

00:09:43.860 you're right and the same thing is true of you know fighting it's like a really a test of fighting

00:09:49.840 skills it's not a test of right and wrong unless you're like believe that like god chooses the right

00:09:54.260 person to win which is a little ridiculous um so i think it has a play in terms of um certain kinds

00:10:02.740 of guys need to work things out in that particular way um usually when you get guys in their 30s

00:10:09.020 and 40s they don't need to like you know fight it out uh they can have a discussion but you know

00:10:14.300 there are some younger guys who have to fight who have to like fight their way through things uh

00:10:19.040 with other guys and you know sometimes that's good and sometimes that's bad and i don't um i

00:10:23.220 really think it's necessary all the time but you know sometimes guys have to do that

00:10:28.440 yeah um back to the like tribes like the groups of men like the whole masculinity

00:10:34.580 you know sort of thing and you're talking about being you know being targeted and they do do that

00:10:38.900 i mean they will uh anytime you sort of step out of the matrix and you you know and you unplug from

00:10:44.440 the bullshit they're you know they want to suck you back in it's like no you must comply you must

00:10:48.320 continue to be be drunk on our kool-aid you can't think independently and do your own thing you know

00:10:52.960 sort of thing um do you just stay away from creating a public tribe and sort of keeping it underground

00:10:58.240 i mean there's some very public ones out there's there's some kinds that are like definitely

00:11:02.240 under the radar that you wouldn't know about unless somebody knew somebody and they would

00:11:06.400 be offered like an open invite sort of thing like what's your view on that today

00:11:10.200 i mean for me personally it's also you know i have to figure out who i'm going to attract and whatever

00:11:15.740 and and uh you know i've had some bad experiences of that uh but uh yeah i'm not saying never i may

00:11:22.280 do it at some point i just for a while i was a little too nuclear and i was like uh you know it just

00:11:26.560 became a thing well anyone who's willing to you know possibly have their business sacrificed or

00:11:31.760 whatever it's probably not so i want to hang out with you know i want to hang out with guys who

00:11:34.780 are equally successful uh or who i can learn things from and i want to i just i don't want to

00:11:40.540 have a group of just like kind of you know worshippers and uh sycophants and so forth uh so

00:11:48.120 for me personally i you know i i thought because i was a lightning rod for criticism um i i didn't think

00:11:54.880 that that was really going to be a good move which is a shame because you know boy scouts all want the

00:11:59.120 badge you know everybody wants to like be part of the warriors club and put the badge on and where

00:12:03.360 the where they outfit i mean men are wired for that but uh you know when you do that then you

00:12:08.600 obviously you're putting that target on your back uh so it's something to be aware of but yeah there

00:12:12.720 are a lot of other groups i mean like whether they're online or or whatever that uh men are a

00:12:17.280 part of and they are a lot more under the radar um but you know if i can you know put out a

00:12:22.580 relief i am starting a group today then like all the people who have been watching me for years be

00:12:26.640 like oh good you know jack's starting a group i mean antifa will be on that like the next day

00:12:34.500 uh you know so i just watch that kind of stuff because and dudes i like i said dudes i would want

00:12:40.920 to hang out with don't want that kind of hassle yeah no i um yeah agreement i've seen you i've seen

00:12:46.220 you attacked by every different vector over the years i think it's hilarious because um you know

00:12:52.140 having known you and spoken you so many times i like it couldn't be further from the truth yeah

00:12:57.340 i'm a pretty reasonable guy yeah and fucking hilarious too actually um there's um what was i

00:13:04.580 gonna say here sorry i lost my train of thought i was i was thinking about some of the conversations

00:13:09.680 um there let's let's jump into the sequence of books that you have over here because it like was

00:13:16.140 way of men the first one that was printed because there was uh sky without eagles i think um there's

00:13:23.280 a few others like what was the sequence in which you would recommend people read these books the

00:13:29.280 sequence that i recommend um i had a couple other books out first but they are they're not out anymore

00:13:34.040 um way of men is foundational all of my work is kind of based on that and i think has the

00:13:41.980 broadest appeal uh way of is what pays my rent uh you know it has the broadest appeal uh and can

00:13:49.420 connect with all kinds of men sky without eagles is just an essay collection i'll probably pull that

00:13:53.440 out of print at some point and put out a new one and uh then you know from there it goes to becoming

00:13:59.620 a barbarian which is more about uh kind of criticisms of the modern world and men's own

00:14:05.280 relationship to the idea of being in tribes because we're all kind of very individualistic

00:14:08.900 i mean i certainly am and then um you know a more complete beast is kind of a summary and it talks

00:14:14.280 about nietzschean or sentiment and uh it has some really good quotes a lot of guys really they're like

00:14:19.580 more complete beast and i was like really that one that's the one you're all right cool you know

00:14:23.060 there's a lot of good stuff in there uh because it's really boiled down and then uh my most recent

00:14:28.960 book fire in the dark um really go back to the way of men that talks about it in a more spiritual way

00:14:34.480 like how how do men create ideals and the importance of creating ideals and how ideals kind of become

00:14:39.760 gods and um you know my version of king warrior magician lover because that was written by you know

00:14:46.720 feminist pacifists and uh you know their their their idea of what a warrior is is a little off

00:14:51.540 and uh you know it's it's not a bad book but you know i think you know mine is better as i actually uh

00:14:57.300 you know i've had a couple i've actually rolled with a lot of guys who are big fans of yours

00:15:02.420 i had a you know like uh last night of jujitsu i had a guy who's like joe you're going on with

00:15:08.320 the cooper's podcast awesome and so i we bump it i bump into your fans all the time yeah it's cool

00:15:14.220 well there's definitely a there's an alignment there um you wrote a a blog post or an essay called

00:15:21.300 i don't care at one point um you know to the point earlier about you know all the attack vectors

00:15:25.940 and people trying to mess with you sort of thing and i mean i don't know when i came across that

00:15:30.580 it must have been five or six years ago you know something like that and i've often didn't you know

00:15:34.660 recommend it to people and i think i even covered that entire essay in one of my before the train

00:15:39.980 wreck podcasts a couple years ago um it's profound can you can you explain the basis of i don't care

00:15:46.560 well it's kind of it's related to my book becoming a barbarian to a certain extent uh

00:15:51.940 there's this idea that we're supposed to care about literally everything that happens everywhere

00:15:56.760 which isn't actually true we're supposed to care about whatever the media tells us to care about

00:16:00.160 on a particular day and that's you know that's kind of how we're being controlled it's like you

00:16:07.640 know let's talk about the issue of the day what are we mad at today and uh you know it's so tiresome

00:16:12.380 uh to have that conversation every day because someone's calling that tune

00:16:15.900 and there's this idea that you're supposed to care about all these people who you don't know

00:16:20.860 and be deeply emotionally affected by it you know and uh the reality is we don't and so it's very

00:16:27.800 performative for a lot of people a lot of people are like oh i feel so bad for those people like do

00:16:32.560 you really though you know like like you don't know them like you know obviously there are people

00:16:37.440 who i care about and if something bad happened to them i would really care uh but i you really

00:16:42.000 can't care about everybody in the world and what their opinion is and uh you know like uh

00:16:47.700 so many times in the online and so forth we deal with like i'm offended by that and i'm supposed to

00:16:52.860 care that you're offended by that well i don't like why why would i care about your opinion you know

00:16:57.720 it's like if i don't know you and you know so often it's like you look the per then you you know

00:17:02.640 the picture and you know what they say now like physiognomy or whatever rules everything um you know

00:17:08.920 like you see the person you're like well would you listen to that person in a bar

00:17:11.680 or like any other you know venue and the answer is usually no you wouldn't get that person at the

00:17:16.900 time of day so why do you care that they're offended or upset like you don't respect that

00:17:20.760 person's opinion and so i i really don't respect everyone's opinion and i don't think most of us

00:17:26.080 really do i'm just being honest about it i think and uh i think that that essay gave a lot of people

00:17:31.260 uh permission to say i yeah i don't care though uh i don't care what you say and uh it's i think

00:17:39.480 there was a story recently about some uh uh some guy who kind of came off as a chat or whatever

00:17:44.780 who uh you know they were interviewing him and they asked about his opinion about the abortion

00:17:49.260 issue or whatever and he was like i don't know anything about that i'm going to the beach you know

00:17:54.280 and you know that's a very yeah it yeah there are a lot of guys like that in the world and i think

00:18:00.920 that that's a good thing yeah um google it if you haven't read it just search for jack donovan and

00:18:06.120 then i don't care after that and you'll find it it's it's uh it's a great piece i mean you know

00:18:10.520 you can use it for dealing with the way the world is today or if somebody's bothering you or you know

00:18:14.480 trying to make their problem your problem there's any number of ways that you can unpack the way

00:18:17.560 that that's written but it's just a it's such a great essay it's a 10 out of 10 like mop just said

00:18:21.600 in the comments um grab this super chat here real quick small graces uh plus trying to care about

00:18:27.340 everyone cheapens the care for the ones you deem worthy of your care yeah i i i wrote a chapter in my

00:18:33.000 book called um managing your f's um and um i see it as a limited resource i mean you only have so

00:18:39.440 much energy in the data to you know to dispense for things that matter so why would you dispense it on

00:18:44.720 things that don't matter or don't have an roi or don't improve your life or don't you know connect you

00:18:49.300 with better people and all that sort of stuff it's like people are constantly trying to steal your

00:18:52.860 attention and your time with their bullshit with you know manufactured indignation in the media about

00:18:58.660 some fucking disease that kills almost nobody or some something that's happening in a part of the

00:19:03.040 world you know it's gonna have no bearing on you whatsoever right like yeah they're always trying

00:19:08.080 to suck you into these narratives but it but it's like you know um actually that that kind of brings

00:19:12.880 me to the idea of perimeters because i think in one of your books you you talk about drawing a

00:19:17.300 perimeter you know like and defining us versus them and um you know i do that with different levels

00:19:25.080 of perimeters like i might have a perimeter you know amongst the five people you know that are

00:19:29.320 closest to me like my family you know the people that love my kid you know you know sort of thing

00:19:32.840 then you've got your friends and you've got your community then you've got you know sort of thing

00:19:37.040 and it's like a concentric set of rings that um you know kind of go out in a tree and the further

00:19:43.300 the rings out the fewer fucks you give on what happens you know like in that ring and the definition

00:19:48.020 of us versus them is obviously more us here and more them you know further out um can you talk a

00:19:55.960 little bit about that perimeter and the thinking you know behind that and why you talked about that

00:19:59.300 in your book well i think it's foundational to what men do in the world uh fundamentally i mean and

00:20:05.720 this is i went back into this again it started in the way of men there's a chapter called the

00:20:09.520 perimeter and then uh you know i revisited that in fire in the dark recently because it has to do with

00:20:14.100 men what men do in every sense is that you know you go into an area in almost a military sense

00:20:19.900 and you establish a space a safe space you know and you know not from free feelings or whatever but

00:20:25.960 you know you secure a space and you take control of that space and then everything outside of that

00:20:32.020 space is beyond your control you know everything outside of that is chaotic and what men really do is

00:20:38.420 they create order in the midst of chaos because the world is chaotic and they're trying to create a place

00:20:43.260 of order and so then you know everything that's within your perimeter is everything that you

00:20:47.300 really care about and you want to protect and and uh and that's you know everything outside of it is

00:20:53.240 you know them you know like it's it's the unknown and uh that's i think just a really important concept

00:20:59.340 in terms of what men do in the world is that we want to create order from chaos and it happens at every

00:21:04.880 level of things um as far as like other perimeters like socially and things like that like you were

00:21:10.620 talking about it's you know obviously yeah you have your your closest group of people and it expands

00:21:16.940 outward and you know that that i love the metaphor of that's why i talked about the fire of the dark

00:21:21.800 there's a metaphor of fire and that's what we've always been around is this campfire and closest to

00:21:27.500 campfire you can see things and you can understand things and you know what's there and who's there and

00:21:31.960 everybody around it is important and then it gets less and less light as it goes further further out

00:21:38.420 and uh you know i also i think in the way men talked about uh perimeters in terms of socially

00:21:43.660 you know in terms of dunbar's number which you can really care about like 150 people

00:21:48.440 and uh and also if you if you look at like the military when people interview the military like

00:21:53.160 the people the guys like platooners you know fire team or whatever are the people who he will care

00:21:58.620 about most and then like as you get to bigger units they're like that's just guys you know that's

00:22:04.220 guys out there that are technically on our team uh but uh you know we keep people people are tribal

00:22:09.560 so you know people who are closest into their tribe are the people that they care about most and that's

00:22:13.320 natural and again it's this is the way that humans operate and uh we're told that it's not you know that

00:22:21.460 it's that we're supposed to care about everything and everyone in the world but we can't we're like

00:22:25.760 physically incapable of doing that and and as i think your reader just said um you know to say that

00:22:31.760 you do you know if you love everyone you do you love no one you know it cheapens the entire uh word

00:22:37.780 uh you know so if you really care about someone you care about them to the exclusion of others

00:22:42.040 you know they care about them more yeah actually that'll that kind of ties into the notion of the

00:22:47.940 empire of nothing right because they want you to care about this like empire which is essentially

00:22:51.980 nothing can you talk a little bit about the empire of nothing concept yeah i mean i think the

00:22:57.800 easiest way if you know a lot of your readers might be younger but uh the the never-ending

00:23:04.380 story is a really good way and i didn't think of this when i wrote it but i've used it many times

00:23:08.800 afterward is uh this idea that there's nothing really means anything the never-ending story was

00:23:15.320 um what was that narnia the lying the witch in a wardrobe or is that something else no it's actually

00:23:20.360 called the never-ending story movie where they basically and they actually fight nothing basically

00:23:24.580 it's a child it's a children's story and you know like basically it's the absence of dreams and the

00:23:30.620 absence of identity is coming and it's kind of just destroying everything around it and i think that

00:23:35.600 that's what's happening with you know globalism and like this monoculture that we have is is that

00:23:40.960 you know all these things that were very intensely meaningful to people they kind of want to take that

00:23:46.120 away and whether it's you know religion or you know racial groups or ethnic groups or like any of

00:23:52.640 these things they want to take that away and replace that with well we are the source of what

00:23:58.000 you care about you know whatever's trending on twitter is what you care about now and so it's just

00:24:02.860 there's no fixed point and that's why i talk about as being an empire of nothing like for you know for

00:24:09.680 like a christian like there's the bible is like the fixed point like everything is less holy as you get

00:24:14.880 out from there and uh for any of us uh in any of us who have any kind of moral center whatever that is

00:24:21.220 you know we have a very specific idea of what is right and wrong and what we care about and as you

00:24:27.020 get further and further away from that things become more profane and so the you know the empire

00:24:31.540 nothing i think is just this idea that they're eroding culture on every level and identity you know

00:24:38.600 i'm a this or i'm a that where your identities are like in in flux and they're consumeristic identities

00:24:43.360 like i buy things and i i listen to this band and therefore i have an identity rather than like

00:24:48.260 i have this family that i'm tied to and and uh this long lineage of people uh so it's just an

00:24:55.180 erasure of culture is what i think about and replacing with consumerism you've um you spent a

00:25:03.180 good amount of time you know in the past not so much recently uh visiting parts of the world and

00:25:08.940 talking about things like germanic tribes and uh nordic you know viking sort of stuff um more recently

00:25:15.200 it it seems like the trend has kind of moved more to like stay solar which i'm not totally clear on

00:25:19.640 so i want to get some clarity on that from you well like what was the shift with that and what

00:25:23.900 did that mean for you well i think personally you know as a lot of people do a lot of people get into

00:25:29.560 germanic you know paganism or whatever because they are looking for some connection to something bigger

00:25:35.060 some connection to their ancestry and uh you know and uh you know like i it's like oh a lot of people

00:25:40.100 are like well i'm scandinavian or i'm german or whatever and so like they they start reaching for that

00:25:45.200 and uh you know man that's a good starting place but then i think that what happened for me is that

00:25:51.180 as i studied that because obviously i had rituals for that and this is part of you know a tribe that

00:25:55.020 did that and uh you know i know a lot about it uh but what happened for me the more research you do

00:26:00.660 you realize that that's just a point in history you know it's just it's it's a pocket in history where

00:26:05.580 they believe these things and these are great stories and they're they're but they're part of a bigger

00:26:08.620 story and that's really what i'll get into is fire in the dark it's like i started out writing a book

00:26:13.560 uh called odin for frey and then as more research you do you're like well this thing really became

00:26:19.080 this thing and this thing became this thing and let's talk about this big story rather than like

00:26:24.080 just these guys and i don't for and obviously there's a lot of uh unfortunate attachments that

00:26:29.420 you get when you talk about just the germans because you know there's a history there of the

00:26:34.040 people who want to talk about just the german stuff you know it gets wrapped in with nazi stuff

00:26:38.200 and so forth and that's just really tiresome uh because you know that you know it confuses the

00:26:43.520 message of everything centuries of like you know histories that can find to like six years of world

00:26:47.980 war led by a lunatic right exactly exactly and so it's really it's a it's a bummer because there's

00:26:53.300 stuff that like okay well you people are like well runes are hate symbol runes are like you know a

00:26:57.900 thousand years ago so but uh it's unfortunately it gets mixed up with that and then when it gets into

00:27:03.840 you know that's the reason why i i kind of moved into a broader perspective which is what i call

00:27:09.040 solar idealism which is what uh fire in the dark is really about like let's talk about this idea of

00:27:14.620 the father and what that really means because there's a father in every one of these pantheons

00:27:19.080 and that's you know what what is that about we why do we keep creating that and uh what is the warrior

00:27:24.920 god like thor is just one in a long chain of you know some guy who kills a serpent and uh you know why

00:27:31.720 are we why do we keep going back to the storm god that wields lightning and thunder uh you know like

00:27:36.300 zeus or so many other people before him and indra and you know like it's like let's look at these big

00:27:41.820 big ideas rather than one one spot in history yeah uh super chat here from moff can you touch on

00:27:51.040 judging people from becoming a barbarian as in uh we shouldn't judge how somebody looks versus it's

00:27:57.000 usually a good indicator of who that person is i mean i i don't know where that is in that book

00:28:04.200 specifically i've written a lot of books now so that's it's like when did i say that but uh

00:28:08.960 you know obviously i think we do judge people by their looks and that's normal human behavior

00:28:15.040 we always have uh that group that you know people put out signals and they put them out intentionally

00:28:20.440 like who am i trying to be you know what signal am i putting out like like i'm you know sending out

00:28:26.140 a message you know that's why like uh tenor gizzy like uh you know it was a good you know good friend

00:28:30.180 of mine and uh he you know talks about what your clothing is always sending a message like what are

00:28:34.840 you trying to say and uh and that's you know so people you know it's like when someone's wearing you

00:28:40.040 know the muslim thing on their head i'm like you're telling me that you're part of group that i'm not

00:28:43.780 part of that's that's what you want to say that and that's fine uh but that's what you're saying

00:28:49.000 and so yeah it's important i think for us because we can't sit down and get to know like little

00:28:54.700 every single person in the world um you know and sometimes people surprise you you know a lot

00:29:00.580 of times they'll surprise you but on a general curve just as we can say that women generally

00:29:05.680 tend to behave this way and men generally tend to say behave this way you know if you see a guy

00:29:11.960 whose pants are like halfway down to his ankles walking around the street no he's probably into

00:29:16.740 some bad things he's probably not a productive guy yeah and uh you know whether he's making trouble

00:29:24.380 or he just likes a band we don't know but you're like well that guy's not like going he's not headed

00:29:29.200 to the winner and so you know you can see that about a lot of people you know like you know like

00:29:34.700 what what signals are women trying to get come out and also like you know if you're healthy or

00:29:39.940 unhealthy that sounds a message too if you're like morbidly obese what are you telling people

00:29:45.000 about who you are uh you know and and people who change that then you've told you've also told

00:29:51.480 another story that you are capable of changing that so uh and i think we always we always judge

00:29:56.700 people by the by the way that they look and and uh it's it's good to a certain extent like uh you

00:30:02.280 know if people judge you a little bit because you're a fat piece of shit maybe you should stop being

00:30:05.340 a bad piece of shit yeah but i mean there's a whole narrative now that's that's that's trying

00:30:09.880 to like convince society to be more inclusive and accepting of everybody's life choices and if

00:30:16.400 they're type 2 diabetic and 450 pounds and you know on the front page of cosmopolitan in a bikini

00:30:23.320 that's beautiful now right because they said so um but i mean you still have the capacity for

00:30:29.560 independent thought basically i mean i i would fully agree with you um speaking of the

00:30:35.280 notion of having a look or you know judging somebody you know by their look um i mean if

00:30:40.200 you saw jack and i i guess standing together we look pretty much i mean we look almost identical

00:30:44.320 now for the glasses of my bald guys with beard they're like they were basically the same person

00:30:48.720 yeah yeah what's what's the deal with being jacked and competent and able and being able to fight

00:30:56.180 because being able to fight is something that i've taken up in the last three years you know i've

00:30:59.860 always been pretty big you know got on therapeutic testosterone obviously you know to maintain that

00:31:03.820 when the time was right you lose your hair i don't bother holding on to scraps and playing

00:31:08.980 the games of transplants and all the bullshit it's just you know you just surrender to it it's like

00:31:12.580 fuck it just shave it off right um how do you how do you define a look for yourself as a guy because

00:31:18.220 i think a lot of guys struggle with that too right i mean like one of the things that you've got going

00:31:22.960 on too is you're you're very well tatted like you've got tats all over your body too right so

00:31:26.840 how do you how do you decide to i don't know like send that signal or that message to the world as

00:31:33.800 you go about it because i mean people look at you when you enter a room people will look at you when

00:31:37.180 you go into a store people will look at you in a social environment and they're going to judge you

00:31:40.480 um you know for me like the feedback that i always get is like you know like you're a big dude that

00:31:45.560 looks like you fuck shit up and that's what i want right like i want like i don't want to scare

00:31:50.360 people but i want people to know that like you're not going to fuck with me basically right so

00:31:55.300 how do you think about that well yeah i mean you have to analyze what you i guess what message

00:32:01.380 you're sending out and what message you want to send out and embody i mean for me personally uh it

00:32:06.560 was important i've talked to a lot of guys who write about masculinity it's like if i'm going to

00:32:10.700 be this guy who's going to talk about masculinity i can't be like you know just a slob and a loser

00:32:15.580 and and whatever i have to try to embody that to the best to the best of my ability uh so i can't just

00:32:21.240 they become gross you know and uh i want to be able to carry that and uh you know so as far as

00:32:28.340 you know like your looks and your choices just depends you know where where you are and what

00:32:32.640 kind of social group you're you're in and you know who you have to interact with um you know like

00:32:37.880 the tattoo thing is you don't get to actually take those off you know like so i started tattoos at

00:32:43.200 like you know 19 i don't know if i would do it again uh but uh once you've made that committed

00:32:48.800 well now i'm going to be a heavily tattooed person i've already made that choice um but uh you know

00:32:54.120 i didn't do that as a threat display it is i mean it isn't anymore i mean like you know all these

00:32:59.180 hipsters with tiny little spaghetti arms have you know tattoos but uh for a certain group of people

00:33:04.580 you know there is a stereotype that you fit into when you're ball and head and muscular and have

00:33:09.320 tattoos you're like did that guy go to prison you know there's a little bit of that vibe there um which

00:33:14.680 is you know a threat display is helpful in in life i mean uh that's one of the things i've noticed

00:33:20.720 that moving to arizona versus some other places i've lived is like i'll go through the grocery

00:33:24.780 store i'm like i'm glad that there are several dudes in here who i do not want to fight you know

00:33:30.900 that's nice to to have that i'm like oh there are still men in the world you know like uh walking

00:33:35.520 around uh whereas you know in portland you wouldn't you he wouldn't encounter that as often

00:33:39.500 uh so you know it's you know it's important to have that kind of physical presence and create it

00:33:44.740 and you create that mostly with your body uh you know and uh you know whether or not how much of

00:33:50.740 your body you hide or show or whatever but uh you know as far as i mean where are you going as far

00:33:56.820 as what do you want to talk about as far as like a look goes all right well you know a lot of guys come

00:34:02.000 to me for advice and help on you know things going on in their life and like one of the first things

00:34:05.800 that i'll always look at it's like okay well why are you fat or why are you a toothpick like why

00:34:09.580 like why haven't you done the work on yourself because you're sending a message to the world

00:34:13.820 about the way that you look when you enter a room right like i'm somewhere between six two and six

00:34:19.560 three two hundred and twelve two hundred fifteen pounds usually where i hover i'm pretty lean i box

00:34:23.780 you know two sometimes two and a half times a week i train every day i cycle like i'm i'm fit i mean

00:34:29.540 if you go to my instagram like you'll see right like i'm not a fucking fat pig sort of thing

00:34:32.900 and i don't think guys understand the importance of that because

00:34:36.720 well there's any number of reasons maybe they listen to too many people say just be yourself

00:34:42.120 or just get people love you for who you are and blah blah blah like there's all these narratives

00:34:45.960 out there so i so i just wanted to hear your take you know as a guy that's written so many books on

00:34:50.120 masculinity and strength and courage and you know like the alpha sort of shit you know sort of

00:34:54.120 things you know to distill it down to one sort of term i just wanted to hear your take on all that

00:34:58.420 yeah yeah i mean it was you know it's yeah and if you are in decent shape you tend to not respect

00:35:04.640 the opinions of people who aren't you know you're like something and people people will just write it

00:35:09.700 off you know like you're like oh well that's interesting fat guy uh you know like and uh you know

00:35:15.880 it is something to be aware of and and and one of the most interesting things about your physical

00:35:21.280 presence is that you it changes the way other people interact with you and then that changes you

00:35:29.100 because that changes who you are so if you're walking in a room and this expectation that people

00:35:33.640 are going to see you in a certain way and that you carry yourself differently and uh it it changes

00:35:39.340 actually who you are you know like uh and i think that's really interesting and so like people say

00:35:44.240 like one of the best things you can do about you know changing yourself is actually to just change

00:35:48.820 your physical appearance and become more fit and it is interesting like people will you know i as

00:35:54.180 a yeah this happened to me mostly as an older guy uh so in my mind i'm not that guy sometimes and

00:36:01.260 then you know i walk into a supermarket and somebody you know somebody's like out of the blue is like

00:36:04.700 well i wouldn't want to fight you i'm like i feel like who are you talking to you know i'm not

00:36:09.760 here to fight man i'm here to get some shit yeah yeah i'm like barely awake i'm here to get some

00:36:14.300 rock star like but but uh you know but that happened and so like that changes your world

00:36:19.640 and i would say that's a big difference between men and women something that i think that not a

00:36:24.140 lot of people think about is that the experience that women have versus the experience men have in

00:36:27.700 the world as to you know whether or not they're going to be have a violent encounter or whether

00:36:34.040 women are pieces of meat and they know it to like everybody you know like they know they can raise

00:36:39.800 their hand and get laid like right now like if they're five and you know they can go and uh men

00:36:45.220 just have a completely different experience in the world and so this this physical form that we inhabit

00:36:49.780 like changes the way it changes changes our reality yeah it's a game changer i mean i i mean i don't know

00:36:56.380 about you but when i was a young kid like when i was a teenager i was i was real thin like i was skinny

00:36:59.940 you know i was pretty much the height that i'm at now by like 15 16 maybe 145 pounds i was skinny as

00:37:06.440 fuck right so it's like you know you start doing some push-ups you lift some weights you know you

00:37:10.040 take classes in high school like aerobics and weight training you start to you know like learn

00:37:14.120 the fundamentals and my entire upper body is covered in third degree burns you know my chest my arms like

00:37:20.520 i don't know if you can see on that arm over there but it's covered in like you know third degree burns

00:37:25.460 and you can change what's under the skin right and i think the first step in improving yourself as a

00:37:30.920 guy is to change the outward appearance of yourself like i believe personally you have an obligation

00:37:36.260 as a man to become the biggest strongest version that you can possibly become i mean within reason

00:37:41.160 without doing stupid shit to harm your body and you know taking bolus doses of training crazy shit

00:37:46.300 like that obviously but you know you have an obligation to put your best foot forward to become

00:37:50.700 the best version of yourself that includes looking good right i mean women put on makeup they put on

00:37:56.060 heels push-up bras you know they dye their hair like they'll do everything they can to you know portray the

00:38:00.780 optics of femininity and beauty with the exception of a demographic that just says just be yourself sort of

00:38:05.940 thing um i believe the same thing's for true for guys and it has been forever and it and it's a bit

00:38:11.620 of a lost art for a lot of dudes i mean i i've got a glimmer of hope because now i go to the gym

00:38:15.760 i see a lot of young kids in there a lot of young boys you know yeah lifting and they're you know they're

00:38:22.580 there i mean they're not doing everything right but i probably didn't do everything right either when

00:38:25.600 i was fucking 18 but they're in there doing it right right you don't you don't see that so much

00:38:30.860 with the uh ladies you know it's you know it's a lot of young boys doing a lot a lot of young boys

00:38:36.780 are starting to fight too which is good you know they're going to dojos they're picking up rolling

00:38:40.100 they're picking up boxing you know whatever they happen to like so it's you know it's a good thing

00:38:43.700 yeah and i think it's been really a certain extent an influence of you know the kind of stuff that you

00:38:47.480 and i have done uh as far as like uh there's a big influence that's coming yeah i always forget how

00:38:53.080 much how many people's ears we get into uh there's a lot of young men who are looking for like what is

00:38:57.820 masculinity what should i be and then they they do hear the advice from you or me or from uh you know

00:39:03.060 ryan eckler or jaco or whatever that oh you should go on this you know and uh so there are a lot of

00:39:10.020 guys i mean uh my jujitsu school uh went to last night uh first class was 50 people uh you know which

00:39:16.380 was crazy uh a lot of people in there and and and something that's interesting that i've pointed out

00:39:21.780 recently is that men in america used to like you know die after high school to a certain extent they

00:39:29.160 would go you know do their job or business or whatever but in a lot of ways they used to just

00:39:34.640 stop you know like doing anything athletic or physical or whatever and now you have dudes who

00:39:41.220 are like in their 30s 40s going in to learn jiu-jitsu and like become dangerous and stuff and that's

00:39:46.420 that's something that wasn't happening you know 30 years ago which is kind of interesting it's like

00:39:51.700 dudes fought and did football or whatever in high school and college and then that that's then they

00:39:56.660 did nothing and just you know rotted for you know but now we have people that a lot of men who want

00:40:01.860 to keep it up and uh you know you know just you know improve their lives constantly and i think

00:40:06.420 that's a really positive change yeah it's a great thing got a superhero from this guy something to

00:40:11.220 watch this lone wolf only family around no friends thoughts i guess he's looking for advice on maybe

00:40:16.720 improving that yeah i mean you got to work on that i mean i just moved to a new city like i said i

00:40:22.340 oriented myself around a jiu-jitsu gym because that's where i'm going to talk to people uh i mean that's

00:40:26.680 the first thing i always advise i mean it's stupid it's like a crossfit thing at this point like

00:40:30.220 you know like you should go to it's like like a cult but uh really i mean it's where you're gonna you

00:40:36.820 know there's a certain kind of interaction that you're getting with a guy when he's trying to

00:40:39.600 strangle you in in this kind of friendly competitiveness uh you know and you happen

00:40:44.800 with striking or whatever too and uh and then you're you're you're communicating in a way that

00:40:50.580 builds trust automatically and so that you can you know then you're you know my in between rounds

00:40:55.460 might be talking about real estate or whatever so you're just connecting on some level and uh you

00:41:01.360 know you're not going to do that in almost any other environment and so i think that that's a great

00:41:05.220 way to get started and you know if you don't have friends you have to go find ways to build

00:41:10.460 stuff i mean i'm kind of an introvert naturally myself and so like i'm not going to be the one

00:41:15.460 who walks up to somebody and be like hey how you doing uh that's not who i am but uh you know you

00:41:21.100 have to put yourself in an environment where that can happen actually my best uh friend in salt lake

00:41:25.280 city that i made when i was there um i specifically i needed a tattoo somebody recommended this guy was

00:41:32.100 tattoo artist and he was like oh you really like my brother he's a tattoo artist whatever and i was

00:41:36.340 like well i'm looking for friends i need to book an appointment and i booked appointment he tattooed

00:41:41.740 the inside of my hand and was impressed that i wasn't being a baby about it and uh we actually

00:41:47.740 became really really good friends and he's one of my really good friends to this day so you know but i

00:41:52.120 i specifically did that because i'm like hey well these are the kind of people i like um that i'm

00:41:57.160 probably gonna get along with like you know i'll book an appointment you know you know tip him well

00:42:01.400 and be you know like let's start a relationship in a conversation yeah and so that's complicated

00:42:06.680 right just go and do go and immerse yourself into things and activities that one you enjoy that two

00:42:12.860 force you to compete and have an roi in your life i mean going like learning how to fight learning

00:42:17.280 how to be violent is a good skill to learn i mean you ask um any one of these mma guys right

00:42:22.140 they'll tell you the exact same thing right i mean you know just go to a dojo and get your ass kicked

00:42:26.940 and get punched in the face a few times and you'll make friends trust me you will yeah it's it's gonna

00:42:32.340 happen i mean it takes a while there are some places where they like don't they specifically won't

00:42:36.840 remember your name for like the first six months because people come in and out and go around but

00:42:40.320 you over time then you become like best friends you know because you've had that experience

00:42:45.140 and i even started recently because i'm because i'm in a new town um my preference generally is

00:42:51.680 you know i have headphones on at the gym and i'm like in my own space uh but i was like i need to

00:42:56.940 not do that uh you know like yeah i have my i use it for the whatever pr that i'm trying to set or

00:43:02.240 whatever but uh yeah i take my headphones off so i'm accessible and then surprise then people come

00:43:08.720 up and talk to you people talk to you know and uh so just make yourself accessible as part of it too

00:43:12.720 speaking of the concept of uh violence and fighting uh andrew tate is blowing up on the

00:43:18.500 internet right now um what are your thoughts on him and some of the conversations that he has

00:43:23.260 i mean i i mostly follow him on twitter i think and we have a lot of mutual friends and people who

00:43:29.560 have met him and so forth i think uh i i know a guy who's in his his war room or whatever right now

00:43:35.220 and uh i mean i don't have any really negative opinions uh about him and and i think that you

00:43:41.760 know it seems like there's a thing happening in the the manosphere right now uh where there's kind

00:43:50.360 of what's being called a christ wave where like they're all suddenly a bunch of guys who are going

00:43:55.200 into this like christian conservative thing and uh in a way i like that entertain is kind of on the

00:44:00.680 other side of that uh like oh i'm on a yacht in the uae and and here's my rolex and uh you know

00:44:07.340 whereas i'm not that guy either uh i like that there's that balance because i think that we need

00:44:12.240 that because i don't think that uh you know everyone's gonna like march off to church and get

00:44:16.160 married and have a little like white picket fence life uh you know we need you know i i like the

00:44:21.820 concept of the barbarian like the barbarian like uh king who doesn't fuck he wants uh you know that's

00:44:27.580 kind of a big a big thing for me so i mean he seems he's definitely a barbarian king of his own

00:44:32.720 world it seems like so yeah he definitely marches the beat of his own drum speaking of the manosphere

00:44:37.960 um that's evolved over the years too like uh i got introduced to it in 2015 2016 or 17 or something

00:44:46.780 like that um i kind of like lean to it i'm like oh this is great there's some good information here

00:44:51.860 and then i started to interact with some of the people and i realized that a lot of the people aren't

00:44:55.980 what you think they are they're you know for the most part either deceptive or fraudulent so i took

00:45:01.220 a step out of it back in december um the manosphere is it still the same thing like do you still see it

00:45:06.620 as the same thing like how do you view the evolution the evolution of the manosphere because i see it as

00:45:11.940 like the manoswamp now basically well it's it's all kinds of as you said as we talked about there's

00:45:18.860 concentric circles of everything right right um and uh i think become a lot bigger i mean

00:45:25.780 it's a terrible name uh terrible name because it comes from well i mean i know where it comes from

00:45:32.840 i mean when they used to have blogs they called them the blogosphere whereas no one blogs anymore

00:45:38.120 and that's not a thing but that was where the manosphere started is where is the blogosphere and

00:45:43.160 then the manosphere uh was the men's blogs and i was writing it sounds like a gay nightclub like let's

00:45:47.900 be honest well you're right i didn't really think about that but yeah you're right but uh

00:45:53.900 it is a it is a you know it was a collection of blogs and you know at a particular time i was

00:46:01.500 writing one for one called the spearhead for the way a man ever came out and uh you know it's a lot

00:46:06.340 of father's right stuff and and it was like father's right stuff and and mra and and uh uh your

00:46:12.280 pickup artists and and so forth and uh society really didn't care that much about it was this kind

00:46:18.300 weird thing that was existing out there and now the really i i always say the broadest manosphere

00:46:25.520 is uh joe rogan's audience uh you know it's really in the biggest sense that is the you know

00:46:33.580 where are you going to connect with the most dudes who are interested in being dudes well it's probably

00:46:39.620 you know joe rogan's audience and then there's like all kinds of things that are you know little

00:46:44.200 pockets of it around that so there's this big thing out there um of men talking about masculinity which

00:46:52.640 no one was talking about masculinity except for like feminists and trans people and whatever uh you

00:46:58.280 know in the 90s and and and whatever but uh now you have all these people you have your jockos and

00:47:04.660 your and your jordan petersons and all these big figures and there's a brilliant uh larger worldwide

00:47:11.080 conversation happening about like you know pro masculinity and pro masculine values and i think

00:47:16.960 that's all part of what you could call the menosphere um but uh you know there's also like obviously you

00:47:25.040 know there's you know all kinds of men's coaches i mean you do coaching i think and and uh you know

00:47:29.000 there are good and bad in that there are guys who are good and there's guys who are like you literally

00:47:33.620 got your shit together like a week ago like i like everybody wants to be coached in the same way but

00:47:40.420 you know it's like i understand it uh when i first got started getting in shape uh i went and got a

00:47:47.120 personal trainer certification because i was like oh i can help you know fat guys get in shape or

00:47:51.520 whatever and you realize that what being a person really is for most people is counting reps for like

00:47:56.560 middle-aged women but like that's where the money is for a lot of it except for the online trainers

00:48:01.120 like i have a good friend who's an online or makes a bunch of money but um you know there's all kinds

00:48:06.460 of niches now but you know you i i see the impulse like oh i got my shit together i want to help other

00:48:12.060 guys get their shit together you know but uh you know i think sometimes maybe you need to let that

00:48:16.100 settle for a little bit you know like rather than like i mean i don't do coaching because i'm like

00:48:19.860 well you know like i said i don't think that i think most men have the most problems with their

00:48:24.200 women uh you know like that's the one of their bigger women and money and uh you know i don't feel

00:48:28.940 like i'm the qualified to really give that advice but um you know as far as you know but you know

00:48:36.320 there's tons of coaches out there and uh like i said you're gonna have guys who are like literally

00:48:41.240 they realize that there's money there and that there are suckers and wherever you have suckers and

00:48:46.240 money you're gonna have some opportunists right and then you're also gonna have some guys who you

00:48:50.480 know have a quality product like they you know i mean i've heard i mean tate was a good example like

00:48:55.720 uh i i've his group i think is really expensive to join and then but i've heard talk to guys who

00:49:02.540 were like yeah i make a ton of money now it was totally worth it so you know he's providing a

00:49:08.420 service that they're getting something out of and uh and so that's that's good but obviously there's

00:49:13.560 also a lot of other people who want to like deal with your woundology or whatever and and uh you know

00:49:18.460 talk about your pain and like just take your money for for nothing and how do you how do you

00:49:23.460 separate guys that are that are the real deal as far as a source of information um even maybe

00:49:30.080 somebody to look up to you know sort of thing versus the ones that are potential fraudsters

00:49:34.660 well i think look at the you know this track record i mean i have a big thing personally because

00:49:42.180 you know i've i've i've had to take the heat uh i have a big thing with anonymous guys like there

00:49:47.460 are a lot of anonymous guys out there and and uh you know i understand why you would not want to

00:49:51.460 have an internet presence i understand that 100 that's a that makes a good sense for most people

00:49:56.120 really but uh if you're going to be a voice like you gotta gotta put yourself out there so people

00:50:01.760 can see who you really are and uh you know it's like well what's this guy's track record what has

00:50:06.680 he actually done would you trade places with him i think is the is like the gold standard is like you

00:50:11.560 know this guy has something to say would i trade places with him right like what i want to walk a mile

00:50:15.300 in his shoes yeah do i want to be more like that guy you know like that's that's what idealism is

00:50:20.200 like do i want to be more like that guy uh or is he just saying the things that like sound like what

00:50:25.560 i want to hear you know because that's that's you know obviously a thing that happens is that you

00:50:31.260 know there are guys who are just saying like if you you can strain together masculine trigger words

00:50:35.300 uh you know that you know like i mean i do it my writing you know but you know like i i put myself

00:50:40.680 out there i'm like here's who i am i actually do i have to go do jiu-jitsu because i have to do a

00:50:44.520 fighting sport because i told you to you know like i have you ever get into competitions like

00:50:48.500 you know actually like ranks ranked i mean well it's cool it's like everybody is in competition

00:50:53.920 you know like in jiu-jitsu obviously you're running with dudes all the time um i've never actually

00:50:57.600 competed yet i was going to then you know the whatever you know 2020 happened uh i had that and

00:51:03.320 it's it's on my list of things to do i think i would like it to do it probably before i build up

00:51:07.460 next time because i think you should yeah as you as you get higher in the ranks i feel like you

00:51:11.800 should have had that experience yeah like what's the point of learning the skill if you don't test

00:51:15.860 it yeah i mean i mean i started this at like whatever by you know mid 40s so like i mean i'm

00:51:24.720 not really expecting to go to like abu dhabi and like you know compete with the top guys i'm just

00:51:29.980 trying to get better yeah that's my goal too i want to i want to get into an actual boxing match

00:51:35.720 uh you know an amateur boxing match just to test the skills that i've learned see what it's all about

00:51:39.360 um and that's that's hard because i was doing boxing for a while too and and like uh there's

00:51:44.080 like there was like usa boxing which was you know boxing you know with the headgear where it was like

00:51:48.200 you know kind of you know um you know like the official kind and uh and uh my coach was trying

00:51:55.820 to find me a fight there for a little bit like you know if i'm lucky i might be able to go fight

00:52:00.780 beat up somebody's dad you know like it was like kind of like like it was really hard to find a

00:52:05.780 fight for a guy over 40 you know because there are not a lot of guys doing it you know so it's a

00:52:10.400 it was a tricky thing but you know it just depends on what area you're into so i'll fight

00:52:15.060 somebody's dad i don't care as long as he's about the same height and weight all you know

00:52:18.040 yeah yeah yeah um back to whole you know like advice stuff with the man of swamp there's a lot

00:52:24.000 of women i've noticed that have that have entered this space in the last couple years

00:52:27.420 and a lot of the like sound bites that they're um you know broadcasting sound exactly the same as

00:52:35.400 what the guys have been saying for decades now uh several decades in fact um we were talking at the

00:52:42.900 opening about listening to women tell men how to be men um do you have any opinion or or like have

00:52:49.280 you seen some of these women you know speaking to men in the manno swamp about you know how to get

00:52:54.340 girls and dates and sort of thing like that because it seems kind of interesting you know to

00:52:58.880 me because there was a time when i was involved in it where it's like you know they were like no we

00:53:02.040 got to keep women out you know it's pointless to have them here they can't tell women how to get

00:53:06.000 girls it's like asking for like a fish how to fish you need to ask a fisherman blah blah blah sort

00:53:10.160 of thing what do you think about women teaching guys how to be you know men and how to get girls and

00:53:15.020 date and marry and all that sort of stuff you know there's a thing that happens with subcultures that i'm

00:53:20.860 very wary of because i've been i'm always part of some culture uh i'm a subcultural kind of guy

00:53:26.300 and uh you know if you have a group of outcast men um women can sweep into that group and become

00:53:35.300 very important very quickly and they become kind of queen bees uh because they're like oh well she's

00:53:41.740 saying the thing that we're saying like she's she gets it you know she's and uh and so i can find a

00:53:47.480 girl just like her yeah yeah yeah so they get carte blanche they kind of like just come in and be

00:53:52.880 everywhere because they you know like i mean there's a good pr representation of it if you're part of

00:53:58.780 this group of men and whatever and women don't want anything to do with you that's you know like that

00:54:02.920 says something on itself so if you have women they're also like yes what they're saying is correct

00:54:07.480 that it's a value to them but as far as you know coaching men and telling them how to be men

00:54:13.560 you know like it would be better to have women out there you know saying hey this is how men really

00:54:19.960 are to other women rather than them having them tell men how to be men which is should always be

00:54:26.260 treated with decent submission and uh even if they're good at it like i had some dude like who

00:54:32.400 i thought knew me try to like you know i thought he had someone who wanted to interview me and i actually

00:54:37.780 got a sales pitch for this woman who wanted to life coach me and i'm like can you imagine

00:54:41.200 i have a female life coach like i'm like i would never be like show my face again

00:54:47.240 takes life coaching from becky smith yeah yeah and whenever a dude has a female life coach i'm like

00:54:54.000 oh that's a red flag like that's that's the red flag right away so you know whereas you know they can

00:54:59.480 probably tell them what they need to hear to a certain extent go through the checklist of like

00:55:03.360 you know it's not that hard sometimes but um still yeah that's not something i think that women

00:55:08.640 should be doing you know like they should like i said yeah it turns into an echo chamber where it's

00:55:12.300 just tits in a blouse saying you know saying the same thing that i did four years ago right it's

00:55:15.960 like okay that's that's cool there and there's a lot of that we've both been around for a while

00:55:19.520 like there's a lot of like it's like oh really that's funny that you're saying that more marketable

00:55:24.580 guy than i am but like i've already said that and there's a lot of that out there happening right

00:55:30.640 now i'm like i go through my twitter feed i'm like ah okay where'd you get that one buddy you

00:55:35.580 know yeah but i mean like you're actually right because like they should be talking to women like

00:55:42.680 women should be talking women just like men should be talking to men but i think the problem is is that

00:55:45.880 women are very suspicious of other women when it comes to this stuff and they don't want to listen

00:55:48.960 to it anyway the only time i think women are willing to listen to advice on how to be a good woman

00:55:55.920 you know i guess um is when they kind of like you know you know hit the wall and they're well

00:56:00.800 under the 30s or 40s and they're like guys aren't really responding the way that they used to

00:56:04.560 and i'm not sure why and then that's when they start to sort of look for the information um kind

00:56:10.500 of brings me to the point of like you you've spoken about um i'm gonna butcher it so you're gonna

00:56:16.080 have to correct me but something along the lines of uh being a good man is not the same thing as

00:56:21.860 being good at being a man yeah yeah yeah can you explain that yeah it was a really important

00:56:28.880 thing uh a really important distinction when i sat down to try and define what masculinity is

00:56:34.120 is because that's where a lot of confusion is in the morality piece because morality is tribal

00:56:41.540 and uh you know if you have a group a religious group whatever they're going to have their own

00:56:46.640 morality and then they want to be like masculinity is whatever we say it is

00:56:50.780 and i wanted to look at what masculinity really is and what it always is always and everywhere what

00:56:56.700 would a you know muslim guy or a guy from 500 years ago understand about masculinity that's still

00:57:01.520 the same and so you know i had to separate out so like there is a big difference between being a good

00:57:07.600 man which usually has to do with the morality of your people or your group or your you know whatever

00:57:12.760 group that you're in and then you know being good at being a man which has to do with

00:57:18.360 basic masculinity which is very very much rooted in that gang masculinity like you know what uh

00:57:25.580 you know is he strong is he courageous is you know what he's doing does you know like you know

00:57:30.300 is he gonna be someone you can push around or not uh you know that basic core masculinity that all men

00:57:36.060 understand always and everywhere and you know the window dressing of morality is not a part of that

00:57:42.100 you know where we you know we can look at a room full of guys from a completely different culture

00:57:47.560 you can probably be like i don't want to fuck with that one you know like that one's in charge

00:57:52.320 or it or that one's definitely like the lowest guy on the totem pole we can we can do that without

00:57:58.100 knowing any without caring about whether they're good people you know and it was also important to

00:58:03.640 separate that out because you know we can lie to ourselves about like well they're not a good man

00:58:08.640 because they don't do the things that i do and then you can kind of put yourself on top of a pedestal

00:58:12.760 because you're a good person guy you know i'm a good person so therefore i'm good at being a man

00:58:18.040 and that guy's not a real man well that guy you know is in prison but he's pretty good at being a man

00:58:24.680 you know he's he's not a good dude but uh yeah but i mean prison is a very masculine place

00:58:30.920 uh you know it's a lot of guys competing with each other it's very cutthroat and whatever and

00:58:35.680 you would say that with a lot of different environments and uh those men are not good

00:58:39.640 guys necessarily i mean uh but a lot of them you know they're good they're good at being men

00:58:44.220 and so it's a big it's a big distinction i think that people need to understand because they get

00:58:48.600 really confused and it becomes like masculinity is about whatever the guys on our team say it is

00:58:54.160 you know so where that guy that guy took advantage of someone so he's not a real man

00:58:58.240 and they're like well cute thanks that's oh the one i wanted to come i used darth vader in the in

00:59:03.880 the chapter you know i was like well with darth vader a pussy you know like that you know because

00:59:09.340 he's that guy and uh the one i came up with the other day i think i want to put it into a talk in

00:59:14.160 the future is is genghis khan you know like okay well you fathered half of whatever like china

00:59:20.020 you know and uh you know obviously you know but you know he wasn't a christian he wasn't like he

00:59:25.340 wasn't like all these things that they want to say the masculinity is uh but uh so is a guy like

00:59:30.680 genghis khan a good man and good at being a man well his own tribe i don't know if he was a good

00:59:37.160 man or not you know if they if they would say he was a good man it's probably the other people who

00:59:41.340 can judge that um historically it's like we're putting our shit onto him uh you know did he did

00:59:48.980 he do a lot of good things for the people around him i don't know uh you know did they think he was

00:59:53.360 like amazing obviously a lot of people fought for him and they probably did uh so you know whether

00:59:58.840 he's a good man is a subjective question but whether he's good at being a man he won the

01:00:03.040 fucking game like he was clearly good at being a man uh so that's that's why that distinction is so

01:00:09.080 important like he's just a really good example is there a good modern example today of a guy that's

01:00:13.460 a good man but also good at being a man um they're they're hard to find um you know i there are a few

01:00:22.020 guys who i believe in um who i believe that are trying to be good men um and i actually trust

01:00:28.100 and uh ian smith is a guy who i really like um i've met a couple times in person and i feel like

01:00:35.860 he's trying to do the right thing he's a flawed guy but he's a very masculine dude and also he's

01:00:42.940 trying to do the right thing and live according to his own morality and uh and so he's he's a guy

01:00:50.620 that i would put out as example um i also and i've told in his face i mean ryan nickler i think

01:00:56.280 you know he he's the he's he's true i really trust him to try and be fair and try and do the right

01:01:02.280 thing even if it's not what he wants to do and that's probably you know as far as like leadership

01:01:08.080 type of guys um those are two guys that stand out for me uh yeah because a lot of guys might be

01:01:15.640 but i don't trust them because i don't know them got it yeah okay that's great um i want to respect

01:01:22.300 your time and i usually do these for about an hour um let's do a let's do a quick uh wrap up and talk

01:01:27.700 about your uh books you know and where people can find you and stuff so if you guys go to amazon you'll

01:01:33.740 find um jack stuff uh just search for jack donovan he's got all of his books and his titles there

01:01:40.020 um do you still write your blog and update it oh no i don't no one reads blogs anymore i bet i

01:01:46.720 set out a newsletter occasionally when i want to do an essay or i you know i had a we had a project

01:01:51.120 called chess magazine where i put some essays up there um but uh you know mostly mostly just uh

01:01:56.740 social media like everybody else and then you know if i read another book i read another book who

01:02:00.420 knows yeah so uh start the world on instagram and surprisingly you're on twitter now i remember a few

01:02:06.240 years ago you were asked at a conference why you're not on twitter and i i can't remember what you

01:02:10.000 said something about being a shithole basically which you're not wrong about i hate i i still

01:02:14.880 don't like it uh i still don't like it i and i do think it's done horrible things for culture

01:02:20.160 generally it's very snipey uh you know like oh i can i can say something bad about you and you'll

01:02:26.100 know it you know like it's kind of kind of snipey attitude but uh it when elon musk said he was

01:02:32.260 gonna buy it i was like well maybe it could be useful because i just in 2017 they just would

01:02:39.180 like the cancel button on me right away but uh you know now i was like well let's see what happens

01:02:43.520 and now you know i don't know if he's actually gonna end up buying it or not whether they're

01:02:46.560 gonna make it i think the deal fell through he's he's actually going through court now because he

01:02:49.960 backed out of the deal and they had had a warm agreement so it's kind of funny because he he

01:02:56.160 backed out of the deal because so many of the accounts are are fraudulent they're like sock

01:02:59.920 puppet accounts avatars are run by fucking you know farms and stuff like that so now that he has to

01:03:05.880 go to court they're going to be forced to tell him how many of the accounts are actually fake

01:03:10.080 accounts yeah and he posted a meme about that like said that that was his intention which may or may

01:03:14.300 not have been the case but it was kind of funny i'm like these you know if he's trolling them he's

01:03:18.260 like the master he's like the king of meme lords right for sure for sure shit posting deluxe all

01:03:25.080 right brother um yeah ph2 t3r yeah so jack allen was taken long ago yeah so find him on twitter uh

01:03:34.740 instagram and grab his books on amazon they're all great i haven't read fire in the dark yet i'm

01:03:39.360 gonna grab it at some point um do you have an do you have an audible version of it yes and you

01:03:44.980 narrate it again yep oh very good i'm looking forward to listening to that one so guys follow jack

01:03:51.020 check out his stuff he's an awesome dude and we'll see you guys very soon in the next broadcast have

01:03:55.700 an awesome one

Playing to Win - September 07, 2022

071 - Jack Donovan

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