Playing to Win - 091 - Macken Murphy - Data Driven Dating Advice

00:00:00.000 All right, good evening. Welcome, guys. We're at the 91st installment of the Playing to

00:00:05.600 Win podcast series. I'm joined today with Macken Murphy. How are you doing, Macken?

00:00:10.860 Hey, how are you?

00:00:12.360 So, quick backstory on how we connected. As one does on the interwebs, perusing the algorithms

00:00:21.560 had sent me something from our young friend here, and he was talking about things in the

00:00:28.540 manosphere, the red pill advice, and he's a scientist from Oxford currently. I think you're

00:00:35.240 lecturing in Australia, if you can maybe clarify that.

00:00:38.260 Yeah, so I do a little bit of lecturing here. Basically, I run tutorials, but my main gig is

00:00:44.580 that I'm doing a PhD at the University of Melbourne. So, I finished my MSc at Oxford, and now I'm at

00:00:49.840 Melbourne doing similar research.

00:00:51.760 Cool. Seems like a well-versed guy, pretty smart. Was watching a bunch of his clips and followed

00:00:58.320 him on Twitter, and I got a DM almost instantly asking for a debate, a conversation on a podcast.

00:01:04.160 So, here we are. I think you'll probably find that we agree and disagree on a bunch of stuff. I think

00:01:10.060 he's going to come at this from more of a science perspective. I guess a lot of the content that I

00:01:15.360 put out, guys, it's based on studies. It's based on Evo Psych. It's based on watching human behavior.

00:01:20.660 It's, of course, based on my experience in consuming content from the Mano Swamp,

00:01:27.120 Red Pill sort of stuff. So, I'm a little bit broader, and I've sort of grown and evolved as

00:01:33.040 times pass, as I believe one should, and update our belief systems. I know that Mackin has recently

00:01:38.940 read my book. You had some warm things to say about it and some not-so-warm things to say about

00:01:43.740 it. Why don't we start with the book? What did you think of the book?

00:01:45.760 Well, I mean, I think that a lot of your advice, I think that we'd be repeating a lot of the same

00:01:54.120 things if a man was asking, okay, what can I do to succeed better on the mating market? A lot of just

00:02:00.580 the raw advice, we'd say a bunch of the same things. It's like, yes, focus on yourself, right? So,

00:02:06.960 it's not a chasing game. It's a building game. It's about the traits that you bring to the table

00:02:11.740 more so than just pursuing and pursuing and pursuing. So, the idea of like, yes,

00:02:18.200 women care about looks, so you should try to be good looking and hit the gym and get your fashion

00:02:23.040 in order. Yes, women care about money. So, yeah, you should be trying to make money if you're

00:02:28.660 ambitious romantically. Yes, women care about status. I mean, I would add some things that you

00:02:34.500 probably, that you may or may not agree with, but that would be a list that we would have in common

00:02:40.200 to be honest though, mate, the overall attitude towards women in the book and in your other work,

00:02:47.700 it's just something that I don't relate to at all. Like, I just, I mean, like even scrolling

00:02:53.980 through your Twitter, like saying things like 90% of women have nothing to offer in relationships.

00:02:58.680 Like I was just, I was just reading it before I came on, like 90% of women have nothing to offer

00:03:02.500 in relationships with sex. Women are sex objects, right? Making fun of Taylor Swift's body. Like,

00:03:10.600 this is stuff that like, I just don't relate to it at all. It strikes me as very harmful. And it's,

00:03:19.480 you know, I mean, to be, to be a hundred percent frank, it grosses me out. Like, it's just like,

00:03:23.080 I, I, I, I can barely read it. But then on the other end, it's like, I do think there's a baby

00:03:29.100 in the bathwater. Um, we do, we do have a lot of commonalities in the sense that

00:03:35.380 we wouldn't just tell someone, Oh, just be yourself. Um, and we also wouldn't, we wouldn't

00:03:42.920 be a fan of people whining about the mating market and saying, Oh, it's unfair that women want these

00:03:47.440 things or, Oh, it's unfair that guys want these things. And then just hoping that someone will come

00:03:52.000 along and scoop them up. That's, uh, anyway, I, I, I'm sure that I'm getting tons of comments from

00:03:57.200 your audience. I'm coming on your platform here. So I'm sure that I'm getting tons of simp and white

00:04:00.760 night and that kind of thing. And, uh, I'm totally comfortable with that. I don't need to be liked.

00:04:04.900 No, that's, that's, uh, look, man. I mean, you know, the internet is what the internet is and it,

00:04:09.880 and it, and it says and does things that it does. And, uh, you know, you have to learn how to leverage

00:04:13.780 it too. That's, that's, um, that's one of the skills that I sort of picked up a few years ago from Ryan,

00:04:18.860 from Ryan Halliday. He was the author of, uh, you know, quite a few books.

00:04:21.860 And he got started when he was working for a clothing company. I think it was American

00:04:25.280 apparel or Abercrombie and Finch or something. He was talking about like, look, you know,

00:04:28.740 if you're going to use social media, if you want to get reach, you have to talk about things

00:04:32.680 and in such a way that it gets people's attention so that they want to talk about it or engage

00:04:37.120 in it. And it's a fine line with social media today. Cause if you go too far, then you can

00:04:40.920 get banned or the platform. And if you're not salacious enough, then you don't get any attention

00:04:45.840 at the same time. So you and I operate in different realms. You operate in the scientific realm

00:04:50.520 and I try to get people's attention on conversation pieces that I have. Uh, so sometimes I guess

00:04:56.640 flicking boogers at certain people is necessary to, uh, create a little bit of outrage and attention

00:05:02.920 on it. So that's what I do it. And that's how I do that stuff was that stuff, especially like

00:05:06.660 Twitter. Um, so you've outraged me a few times, so it's excellent. Excellent. Well, it was enough

00:05:13.560 that as soon as I followed you, like literally within about a 10 to 15 minutes, I got a DM from

00:05:18.100 you asking for it. Yeah. Well, here's the thing is that I get, I mean, if you go on my Tik TOK,

00:05:22.920 right, every time I go viral, I get tons of comments just saying, Oh, you're, you're scared

00:05:26.960 to talk to someone from the red pill, you know, like you, you won't you. And it's like, I'm not

00:05:30.720 scared to have a conversation, mate. Like it's totally fine. But every, everyone I reach out to,

00:05:35.220 it's like, I, I respect you for being the first person, uh, willing to, willing to touch me with a 10 foot

00:05:40.580 pole because, you know, Rolo Tomasi has been, uh, been ignoring me, even though he, you know,

00:05:45.800 replies to my other stuff. He, uh, you know, he, he's a bit of an alpha male there and, uh,

00:05:51.420 a bit too alpha for a conversation, I suppose. What's the, um, what's the gripe? What's the, um,

00:05:56.420 issue that, um, people seem to have with you on Tik TOK and, you know, like the red pill or like

00:06:02.600 the narratives that are, that are discussed in that space? Well, it's kind of weird because I get

00:06:07.780 hate from both sides. Right. I mean, I, I don't, I, the red pill, blue pill, black. I mean,

00:06:12.220 it, it just sounds like people talking about their favorite color power ranger to me.

00:06:16.060 Yeah. Let's talk about pills for a minute. Like, what do you think about all these colored

00:06:18.340 pills that are all labeled? I think it's, I think it's weird to approach life trying to expect that

00:06:24.500 you can sort it into ideologies and in this like neat way. Um, it's not how I operate. I, I mean,

00:06:32.940 I know that a lot of people are just not going to believe that this is true, but people in my

00:06:37.240 personal life will tell you that it is it's, I believe whatever the mainstream science and,

00:06:43.800 and in some niche cases where I think the mainstream science is wrong, it's because I

00:06:47.860 think that there are specific studies that are very, very compelling. And, and that leads me to

00:06:53.020 disagree with a lot of mainstream red pill points. It leads me to have kind of a nuanced take on certain

00:07:00.740 ones. It leads me to outright agree with some, right? Like if we were talking, like if I, if I was

00:07:05.320 talking to someone who's, you know, thoroughly blue pilled, if that's even a thing, um, they would

00:07:11.140 tell me, Oh, you know, just again, what we were talking about, like, Oh, just be yourself. Right.

00:07:14.840 Or, Oh, looks don't matter. Right. Or, Oh, it's just, it's just a stereotype that money is attractive.

00:07:21.520 Right. Like this is just nonsense. There there's, there's decades of research showing that that's not

00:07:27.080 true. And then, you know, there, there, there's some people, most of my comments are people

00:07:32.540 misinterpreting me as someone who's just, I mean, it depends on what I'm going viral for. I mean,

00:07:39.360 sometimes people are, you know, calling me an incel and saying that I'm black pilled and it's like,

00:07:43.720 all right, I'm not an incel and I'm, I'm hardly black pilled. I just think that the data is in and

00:07:48.780 looks matter. Right. And, and, and sometimes it's people saying that I'm a, that I'm a, you know,

00:07:53.400 a simp and a cuck because I don't believe that, I don't know, that what would be a good example of

00:08:01.360 like a non red pill belief I have that, that I, that I believe the body count matters for men as

00:08:05.480 much as women, or that I believe that in terms of dating prospects, it's, it's actually quite

00:08:12.440 uncommon for a woman to mess up her dating life by having too much you know, sexual encounters in

00:08:18.660 practice. It's like, that doesn't seem to be that much of a hurdle or I wouldn't believe that say,

00:08:23.400 I wouldn't believe in something like the wall, like this idea that this like overnight, I mean,

00:08:28.000 we can get into all the detailed things. I think, uh, yeah, I saw that you, you sort of define the

00:08:32.540 wall as more of a slope than a definite smash into a hard object that stops their prospects.

00:08:38.880 Yeah. I mean, it would be weird if it wasn't, I mean, it's like, that's not, that's not how aging

00:08:42.900 works. It's like, yes, over time, romantic prospects in terms of your mate value over time,

00:08:49.700 that declines in men. It starts to decline at a significantly later point than it does in women,

00:08:55.060 but it declines in both cases. Right. Um, like rich, I'm sure, you know, that you probably had

00:08:59.620 more options when you were 40 than you do now. Right. Um, like, I, I don't think that's something

00:09:04.560 you'd disagree with. You're actually one of the more, frankly, I mean, I don't want to just argue

00:09:08.600 with you or, or discuss things with you as if you're just a representative for the entire red pill.

00:09:14.520 Right. Uh, some of you, we talked about this in DMs so we can clarify. So you're asking about that.

00:09:20.500 And, you know, I am what I would consider red pilled, but I am not identifying with any pill

00:09:27.520 in particular. I have become frustrated and exhausted with the notion of, of pills because

00:09:32.680 people invent new pills to, uh, label whatever belief they want to broadcast or sell to you,

00:09:38.280 especially on, you know, social media and YouTube. So if the, so if the red pill isn't your thing,

00:09:42.960 then you conjure up a white pill or a purple one or an orange one, or, you know, something like this

00:09:47.180 to brand and market, whatever it is that you're selling to me, it's, it's simply, you know, what

00:09:52.500 is truth and what is lies. Right. And interpretation of truth for me, because I'm a little bit older and

00:09:58.960 have some more experience. I, you know, I look at human behavior. I look at what I've read in

00:10:02.900 Evo psych and I've probably read close to as much as you have. Um, not to the same degree. I haven't

00:10:08.400 studied, I haven't researched, I haven't put out papers like you have, obviously, you know, I've,

00:10:11.100 I've, I've summarized a lot of my thoughts in a, a book, um, and in content that I've put out,

00:10:16.080 but I don't really like the whole, you know, let's be red pilled or, or you're blue pilled,

00:10:20.660 or if they disagree, like I've seen people in the Mano Swamp call guys like David Buss, uh, blue

00:10:25.720 pilled. And I don't think he's blue pilled. I think he's a scientist that's researched some,

00:10:30.000 uh, great, you know, put some good work together and put out some very informative and useful books.

00:10:34.760 And, um, you know, to call somebody that's, that's put out useful information, blue pill

00:10:40.460 almost seems like it's disparaging at this point. Um, so I don't like the whole pill label labeling

00:10:46.360 stuff. I think it's, you know, what is actually working and what's useful that you can apply to

00:10:50.720 your life and what is just, you know, comforting lies to sort of satiate you to happy wife, happy

00:10:56.220 life, you know, your way through a marriage, you know, sort of thing would be a very simple example

00:10:59.820 to sort of put out there. Um, what do you think of the notion of that statement? Something like

00:11:04.420 happy wife, happy life. Like, how does that sit with you? Well, I've never been married. Uh, so,

00:11:10.140 but happy wife, happy life as a statement. I mean, is that, is that a belief that you would

00:11:15.740 subscribe to? Would you, were you to get married? No, not really. I mean, I think that, I think that

00:11:22.800 things are a little more complicated than that. I think that part of the underlying sentiment is

00:11:26.020 probably true that if your relationship is going well, if the home is happy, it's, I mean, yes,

00:11:31.640 it's, it's, I think that to an extent that's true, but the idea that, you know, I saw you talking about

00:11:38.380 like Tyson Fury, just saying that, you know, he should agree, agree, agree to avoid conflict.

00:11:42.920 I don't think that that's a well-supported way towards a healthy relationship. But again,

00:11:47.900 with the pill stuff, it's like the other end of it for me is that it just sounds so childish to talk

00:11:53.760 about truth in this way. It's like my pills, right? Your pills wrong. Like that kind of thing.

00:11:57.440 It's like, um, red pill, black pill, blue pill. Again, it's kind of like the power ranger thing.

00:12:00.900 It's like, what, what are you guys doing? It's like, it's just, it's just, there's just individual

00:12:05.760 facts and you assess them based on, you know, not, not what your favorite sports team is, right?

00:12:11.980 You're rooting for the red pill, rooting for the book. It's like, is it, does the evidence support

00:12:15.820 it or not? Right. And, and I get buffeted around on certain points. Right. Um, for example,

00:12:22.100 like when I was an undergrad, the, there was, there was this idea that was, that was very common

00:12:26.480 in the literature and very well supported at that time, um, or relatively well supported.

00:12:30.740 The support seems to, seems to be kind of illusory in hindsight, but this idea that women's

00:12:35.640 preferences shift quite significantly during ovulation versus outside of ovulation. That

00:12:40.940 was just, um, that was Marty Hazleton studies. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you, so you have read a

00:12:45.640 little bit. Yeah. Yeah. So I've listened to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Marty Hazleton and also,

00:12:51.040 you know, Steve Gangestad, um, a little bit of Randy Thornhill. Uh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I could,

00:12:57.420 I could, I could list authors. It wouldn't, it wouldn't really matter. But the point is that

00:13:00.400 there's this huge body of research basically suggesting that women's preferences shift

00:13:04.580 dramatically at ovulation or they shift quite significantly. And then, you know, there were

00:13:10.720 some repli and so that was just, that was just what I believed because that's where the studies

00:13:14.380 were. Right. Um, but then, you know, over time, it kind of turns out that when you do better

00:13:20.620 studies with better methodology, right, the early studies maybe had, they were underpowered small

00:13:24.760 sample sizes. And then also the effect sizes weren't necessarily, um, well, it was really

00:13:30.780 the methods of measuring when someone's ovulating, they had low validity. Uh, so it was like having

00:13:36.440 women count from their latest period, right. Which, which isn't the best method. And when you do

00:13:40.980 newer methods with larger samples, sometimes there's an effect, but when there is an effect,

00:13:46.420 it's small. So that's a great example of like, for me, it's just, okay, what is the current best

00:13:51.300 evidence we have show? And so it's like, if you asked me when I was 19, 20, right. Okay. What, what's,

00:13:57.320 what's the evidence on ovulation shifts? I would say it's looking pretty good. Right. And then you

00:14:01.840 ask me now, right. Um, several years later and it's like, all right. I mean, uh, the, the best

00:14:08.280 replication attempts haven't seemed to work very well. The biggest meta analyses are, are, you know,

00:14:14.080 they're, they're competing. There, there are some that say there's a small effect and some that say

00:14:17.760 there's no effect, but overall, you know, my opinions changed. So that's really where I come

00:14:22.220 at things. It's not, it's not just what, what you, cause you know, red pill would say, Oh,

00:14:28.140 ovulation studies, they rock. They're awesome. They're true. Right. And it's like, okay, blue pill

00:14:32.920 guys would say, Oh, you know, the ovulate, it's a myth. And it's like, Oh, it's not really a myth.

00:14:38.500 Uh, that's, that's not a good word for something that science has been investigating, but I would

00:14:44.060 just say, okay, what, where's the best evidence right now? And then that's my opinion.

00:14:48.280 See the, the, um, see the problem that I've come to realize with scientific research as guys like you,

00:14:55.660 um, use them is that it, it relies on a lot of the times there are surveys, right? So a real good

00:15:03.200 example was, um, you know, Alexander, uh, from date psych. Um, I had him on my channel at one

00:15:09.400 point and we were talking about his research on top deal breakers and dating. Um, and as we were

00:15:17.580 going through, uh, women's deal breakers and men's deal breakers, I came to realize there's,

00:15:23.620 there's like 25 or 30 deal breakers that women would list when, you know, he surveyed them. But

00:15:29.540 do you know, do you know what was missing? That was obvious to me? Oh, it's the behavior. I mean,

00:15:34.620 right. It's height. It's height because, Oh, they didn't say height. None of the women in the survey

00:15:41.620 acknowledged that height was important, but women disqualify men routinely on dating apps if they

00:15:46.540 look short or, um, if they aren't tall enough for them. So it's interesting, you know, to, um,

00:15:53.220 you know, get into the science and the research and say, you know, well, you know, this is,

00:15:56.800 this is science-based evidence on, uh, you know, good advice for dating and stuff like that.

00:16:02.200 But when you ask somebody for their opinion or to take a survey or, you know, however it's

00:16:07.100 presented to them, like maybe you need a lie detector attached in the same time when you're

00:16:11.100 asking them the question sort of thing. You know what I mean? That's not even, yeah. So I can,

00:16:14.900 like it can't be flawed. Yeah. Yeah. So for me, survey data generally isn't good enough to believe

00:16:21.100 something. Right. So I'll, I'll give you, I'll give you a very similar example of this. So you have

00:16:25.340 to, when I am assessing whether something's true ideally, and sometimes the evidence just isn't

00:16:30.920 there. Sometimes it is, it's like, okay, we've, we've got survey data and nothing else. So it's

00:16:35.680 like, it's between survey data and like personal experience and okay, maybe we need to do more

00:16:41.100 research here, but when it's good, right, we get survey data, but we combine it with behavioral data.

00:16:47.020 And then also stuff that's kind of in between. So for example,

00:16:50.460 with the height thing, right? You could look at what height filters do women set on dating apps,

00:16:59.420 right? It's kind of in between. It's not quite behavioral. I guess you could say setting a

00:17:04.180 filter is a behavior, but it is a self-report of their preference, but it's a self-report in a

00:17:09.040 higher stakes context. So it's more persuasive. A good example of this would be if you ask people,

00:17:13.820 and this is true for men and women, right? If you ask people, okay, what do you want in a mate?

00:17:19.820 They're going to tell you, oh, I want someone honest. I want someone loyal. I want someone

00:17:24.200 kind, right? And then they probably do want those things, right? Those are, those are the,

00:17:27.940 those are the top three and top four types of traits. Usually the top five are all these like

00:17:33.880 personal qualities that are quite important. But if you look at behavioral data, looks come out

00:17:40.620 over and over again, right? At close to the top of the list, if not the top, right? Exactly. So,

00:17:46.740 so it's like, yes, you say you want someone honest, loyal, and kind, but then when you actually go to

00:17:51.260 select mates, what's the first thing you're, you're looking at, you're looking at looks and

00:17:55.100 you're filtering based on that. Now, some would say, okay, that doesn't mean that looks are the

00:17:58.740 most important thing. It's just the easiest thing to filter people based on. But I would say that

00:18:04.620 when you look at a special, another behavioral way of getting at this is to look at partner

00:18:09.900 correlations, right? So for example, men say that they don't care that much about a woman's education

00:18:15.900 level, right? So you look at the, you talk about the self-report. So I just said a self-report example

00:18:21.120 that would be, you know, very red pilled. Here's one that's, well, it kind of goes the other way

00:18:25.020 sometimes, right? Men say they don't really care about a woman's education level, but then you look in

00:18:30.460 practice and almost every college educated man is only dating women who are also college educated,

00:18:35.620 right? Correct. Yeah. So the, the, I actually had a, um, I actually had a gal on my ladies night

00:18:41.020 podcast the other night and she's in the San Francisco Bay area. And she was telling us that

00:18:45.180 she was disqualified almost routinely sometimes by guys that were higher income earners because she

00:18:50.640 didn't have a degree and didn't earn enough money. Yes, exactly. So, so a lot of these red pill guys,

00:18:56.180 right? They'll say, Oh, it's not just, you know, survey data isn't real survey. Data isn't

00:19:00.440 real. And it's like, okay, let's look at some behavioral data. Yeah. You, you guys are right.

00:19:03.940 Looks matter a lot more than women say, right? But education status money in practice, men say,

00:19:10.720 men say they don't care about these things when you ask them on a survey, but then in practice,

00:19:14.220 men are dating roughly in their own income, especially in the West, right? And this, this really

00:19:19.160 is Western data, um, roughly in their own income range, right? Definitely in their own class range.

00:19:25.480 If you were to stratify the sexes, um, based on, you know, normal variation and how the sexes earn

00:19:31.380 and then also definitely in their education range, we don't see these big mismatches. So yes,

00:19:38.000 I completely agree. It also depends on who you're going to ask to and where they're at in their stage

00:19:43.300 of life. Like if you're talking to an older, more seasoned gentleman, that's, that's got his money

00:19:46.660 sorted. He probably doesn't really care that much about her education and a degree on the wall and more

00:19:52.060 about youth and beauty and potentially if he wants a family and children fertility, right? So, um,

00:19:57.060 these things all seem to be moving targets in my estimation. Is that something that you would

00:20:01.200 agree with or disagree with? I think you'd be surprised, mate. I believe it's true for you.

00:20:05.460 Right. And I think that as when we're putting on, when we're trying to be critical thinkers,

00:20:10.960 right, we have to step outside of our own preferences and our own experience, right? Because I would have

00:20:17.540 some bias biases based on what I, there are times when I, you know, open up a study and I'm like,

00:20:22.700 well, I, you know, I really care about this thing. And then I realized, oh, it seems like actually

00:20:26.660 overall, this isn't something that's super important to other men and vice versa. I would say

00:20:31.700 that most men who are educated, whether they say it or not in their behavior, they exhibit a preference

00:20:37.940 towards other educated, um, towards other educated individuals. And part of this, it might not,

00:20:43.660 it might not come out as a direct effect. You have to keep in mind that it's like,

00:20:47.220 if you're, uh, as you say, like, like a guy who's got his money together, educated,

00:20:52.860 that sort of thing, you're probably a pretty smart guy, right? Just, just probably very few people get

00:20:59.140 rich by accident, right? There are some people who get it through inheritance, that kind of thing.

00:21:03.420 But usually it's like, okay, you've been solving complicated problems at a high level for decades.

00:21:10.240 And that's why you have money, that type of guy in practice, you know, in, in his speech,

00:21:16.880 he might say, oh, I don't care about our education level. I don't care about how smart he is. I just

00:21:21.440 want someone young and beautiful. And then it's like in practice, you know, you're on the second

00:21:24.700 date and you're bored because you guys can't talk about anything. Um, so I think a lot of these guys,

00:21:30.320 they, they say they don't care about it, but they do. We don't see huge IQ mismatches in dating.

00:21:36.320 Typically we don't see huge, um, salary gaps in dating typically. Um, although, you know,

00:21:41.200 this is when you're correcting for already the differences in wage gap, um, the differences in

00:21:46.400 wages between the sexes, I apologize. And then also we don't see these huge gaps in education.

00:21:50.560 Generally people mate quite assortively on that, even though it's, it's, if it's going to go up in

00:21:55.040 one direction, it's generally the women dating up. Would you, I mean, I would, I would look at that, uh,

00:22:02.720 you know, essentially respond with the vast majority of the population out there when they

00:22:08.480 approach relationships and dating and, uh, long-term type of engagements. Um, they generally

00:22:15.600 subscribe to society's, um, narratives, right. And we've generally been told throughout our lives.

00:22:24.960 I mean, mine anyway, I'm again, you know, a bit older that, um, you know, you want to find somebody

00:22:30.720 who's your equal, you know, who you can stand beside, who you can, uh, build something with

00:22:36.000 together. Um, not find somebody that's, I mean, they certainly tell women, I mean,

00:22:41.840 they don't even need to tell women this. This is almost in their DNA because they're hypergamous

00:22:45.120 and they always look for somebody that's at least at the same socioeconomic status.

00:22:49.440 Actually, let's talk about hypergamy before we keep going.

00:22:51.440 Yeah. We can get, we can get a little, we can get a little messy there as well. Yeah.

00:22:54.880 Do you agree or disagree with the godfather of the manosphere with his assessment

00:23:00.480 of hypergamy? And, uh, I think we've heard Jordan Peterson sort of co-signed it as well,

00:23:05.280 too. Like, is there any disagreement that you have with the notion of hypergamy?

00:23:09.840 Well, I'm, I'm part of one of the only evolutionary psychology labs that, uh, that ever even considers

00:23:16.560 hypergamy or looks into it. It's definitely, I would say that there is a phenomenon there,

00:23:24.160 but you have to be more precise with your terms, right? No, I'm not saying you specifically. I'm

00:23:28.720 saying that red pill folks, they kind of, uh, they kind of gerrymander hypergamy around whatever

00:23:36.800 dating situation they like. Right. So like, uh, so, uh, uh, you know, the term gerrymander and the,

00:23:46.400 it might be kind of a niche United States term, but it's when politicians redraw the maps. So that way

00:23:52.480 the votes are skewed, um, towards there. So it's like, it's like an ex post fact. I'm saying that

00:23:57.760 ex post facto, right after the fact they're reconfiguring the situation. So hypergamy explains

00:24:04.080 it. Okay. So shoot the arrow and then draw the target around where it lands. That's a much better

00:24:09.040 way of saying it. Thank you for, thank you for helping me out with my analogy there. This is what

00:24:12.560 I do, my friend. Yeah, no, I appreciate it. Yeah. So the, so look, yes. Um, I would say that there,

00:24:22.800 there are, there are several ways in which, um, women seems to aim up, um, more than men. Right.

00:24:29.680 So for example, I mean, I remember Helen Fisher, who's really the world's most cited expert on

00:24:35.920 romantic love. She, or, or, or certainly the, the one that that's talked about the most,

00:24:40.720 I don't know if she's officially most cited, but she says that, uh, women are looking for Mr.

00:24:45.040 Perfect and, uh, men are looking for Mrs. Good enough. Right now, whether, whether that's,

00:24:49.360 whether that's hypergamy or not, what we see is that women are generally much pickier, right?

00:24:54.080 They generally have higher standards and this is something that we see across for long-term

00:24:58.640 dating or is that for short-term dating or both? Well, short-term as well. Right. So one thing that's

00:25:03.520 quite interesting in, in, I'm sure, you know, this men lower their standards for short-term mating,

00:25:09.520 whereas women keep them the same or higher depending on the trait. Right. So if you look

00:25:13.680 at looks, right, just physical attractiveness, but that's in certain categories though, isn't

00:25:18.400 it though? Because I mean, like you'll see women lower their standards or sorry, raise their standards

00:25:22.880 on short-term dating when it comes to the looks department, but she'll happily go out and bang

00:25:27.120 a guy that just got out of jail and doesn't have a pot to piss in or a winner to throw it out of if

00:25:31.040 he's good looking enough though. Like, yeah, so this is the, this is watching that behavior.

00:25:34.960 This is the type of thing I'm talking about with the hypergamy thing is that when a woman

00:25:42.320 dates a hot guy who doesn't have his life together, that's hypergamy. When a woman dates

00:25:50.240 an ugly guy who, you know, has more money than her, right? That's hypergamy.

00:25:54.480 It is. Yeah. When a woman, like all this stuff it's, well, no, I'm not saying, I'm not saying

00:25:58.400 it is necessarily, I'm saying that it's like, okay. So every time there's any mismatch at all,

00:26:05.280 um, it's, it's ex post facto becomes hypergamy. Like you need to, you need to, I think that if you

00:26:11.760 want to study hypergamy, right. And I'm, and I'm using, I'm using the term hypergamy. I don't know if it,

00:26:17.120 I don't know if it's the best one to use, but I understand that it's, it's the one used in this

00:26:20.560 context. If you want to study this sort of topic, you need to define your variable pretty precisely

00:26:26.480 before you go into it. So you can ask the question. It's like, do women? So one specific question,

00:26:31.760 which I think you'll get an affirmative answer. It's like, do women prefer to date men who have

00:26:36.560 more money than them? Right. Who have better financial prospects than them. If that's your

00:26:40.720 definition of hypergamy, then it's like, yeah, yeah, that's a, that's a pretty well-supported idea.

00:26:46.320 If you look at looks right now, it gets more complicated because just from

00:26:50.560 behavioral data, it seems that women are willing to loosen up their standards on looks

00:26:54.880 a lot more than men. Um, certainly for long-term dating for short-term dating,

00:26:59.040 men and women are more similar in the sense that we both aim for like the best looking person possible.

00:27:04.400 But the difference is that men are willing to drop their standards in a way that women aren't.

00:27:08.000 So I think that hypergamy is one issue that I have with the red pill is that it's like, look,

00:27:13.280 we can talk about that. We can have a conversation about the idea that women are more selective

00:27:18.720 and have a preference to date up, um, on social hierarchies. Right. Um, we can talk about that

00:27:25.920 and discuss the evidence for and against it, but we can't just say hypergamy for every dating

00:27:31.200 situation ever. Right. Cause it's like, if it's hypergamy when the guy's better looking,

00:27:35.520 but she's making more money, but it's also hypergamy when she's better looking and he's making more money,

00:27:41.440 then it's, it's, do you know what I'm saying? Like it's like, yeah, no, I, I fully agree.

00:27:46.320 And I, yeah, there are absolutely outliers. I mean, I've had conversations with lots of people

00:27:51.440 where it's like, you know, you sort of dive down the rabbit hole of, um, you know, dating and

00:27:55.200 hypergamy and how, uh, men and women prioritize, uh, mates and you'll always have that random,

00:28:02.720 uh, you know, gal pop out and she'll be like, but wait, that doesn't apply to me because

00:28:06.160 I'm a lawyer making $300,000 a year. And my husband's a stay at home dad and you know,

00:28:10.880 he doesn't even work. And, uh, you know, like you'll always get those in any sampling.

00:28:17.760 I'm well, okay. I, so I I've spoken on clearly. I am not saying I'm not pointing to exceptions

00:28:26.000 to prove that. That's not how, that's not how I, that's not how I even think about topics. I too

00:28:30.640 think about averages, right? I would never, if there's an average trend, right? Like I've said in this

00:28:35.200 conversation that the average person cares about looks before almost anything else when they're

00:28:41.280 dating. Yeah. I'm not going to point to my buddy. I'm not going to point to my buddy and say, oh,

00:28:45.200 he doesn't care about looks when he's dating. Therefore it's not true. That's not, that's not

00:28:48.480 how averages work on the hypergamy point. I was, I was, I was making, I was making a very specific

00:28:52.800 point, which is that if it's hypergamy, right? Hypergamy when a woman dates a guy who's better looking

00:29:00.400 than her, but makes less money, but it's also hypergamy when a woman dates a guy who makes more

00:29:06.800 money, but is worse looking than her, right? Then we could flip the situation with the same evidence,

00:29:11.600 right? And say, men are hypergamous, right? Which is, which sounds good. Cause it's like,

00:29:16.400 oh, look at that low life. Like, right. Right. Like he's using his looks and trading it for a woman who

00:29:22.400 has more money than him. Right. And then we could also do the flip thing and say, oh, look,

00:29:25.920 he's being hypergamous. He's dating a woman who's better looking than him, but makes less money.

00:29:29.520 Right. So, so it's the same set of data points. And we're just saying hypergamy, hypergamy,

00:29:33.600 hypergamy. And it's like, we have, okay, we have to select a variable, right? If you want to talk

00:29:38.400 about this in a serious scientific way, you have to select a specific variable, right? And then assess

00:29:43.840 whether that specific point is true. And so it depends what type of hypergamy we're talking about.

00:29:48.800 If we're talking very specifically about money, then I agree. It's like, yes, women generally exhibit a

00:29:54.720 preference for men who are making more money than themselves. And they have a high preference.

00:29:59.440 Yeah. I think this is where you see things slightly differently because I mean,

00:30:03.520 you know, to me, you know, exception to rule doesn't disprove the rule. It's just an outlier.

00:30:07.280 And I think, you know, on a balance of probabilities, if the vast majority of women

00:30:11.120 okay, so here's a really good example. So,

00:30:13.120 No, but I'm not saying, I mean, I'm not saying the exception to the rule thing. I,

00:30:16.160 I just clarified that I'm not saying that.

00:30:18.080 No, no, but just hear me up for a second. So as an example, like if I were to state that, that,

00:30:22.720 that women are, are hypergamous and they tend to marry and date across on the social

00:30:28.160 economic scale. Yeah. I've read research papers. Yes. I've read, you know, some Evo psych and,

00:30:33.120 you know, followed some useful content, but I've also been a private lender for a number of years,

00:30:36.640 too. And as a private lender, I have to look at credit applications and on the credit applications,

00:30:40.960 it has their job and it has what their income is. And I've seen the vast majority of cases when

00:30:46.320 people are applying for, uh, financing private mortgage, you know, whatever it happens to be.

00:30:51.200 Uh, mister almost always makes a lot more money than misses. Right.

00:30:55.840 But wait, I, I, I don't understand. Do you think I, I, you're not disagreeing with me. I just said that.

00:31:01.360 No, I'm agreeing. But what I'm saying is like in the context of hypergamy. And I think, you know,

00:31:05.360 one of the things that we wanted to talk about in this podcast as well is the disagreements,

00:31:10.480 you know, with the red pill and the Mano swamp is, uh, um, I think it's more of like a broad

00:31:15.600 statement where it's just, you know, women are generally hypergamous. Right. And this is what

00:31:19.920 I've seen as far as behavior. This is what I've seen as far as, um, you know, reading papers and

00:31:24.080 stuff like that, but then it gets nuanced, right? Because women's, uh, preferences will change,

00:31:30.880 uh, depending on what their mate value is, what they look like, how old they are,

00:31:35.760 perhaps even where they are in their obligatory shift, you know, as Marty Hazleton talks about.

00:31:40.160 So there's a number of variables that you can really dive down a whole bunch of

00:31:43.200 rabbit holes and get super geeky on. And that's not what I do it because to me that gets boring

00:31:47.040 as shit. I mean, people will podcast on that for five or six hours. Like, dude, we get it right.

00:31:51.680 Like, you know, like, let's just get back to the basics here and get on with life. So like,

00:31:56.640 that's how I approach it. But I understand that there are a lot of potential variables

00:32:01.120 and rabbit holes where you could examine it from different perspectives and angles.

00:32:04.080 Well, do you understand, do you understand my gripe is with that is with what you just said,

00:32:09.840 which is that like, Oh, hypergamy as a general term, hypergamy as a general phenomenon. And I'm

00:32:14.080 like, okay, well, empirically, that's not good enough. We need to define the term and then assess

00:32:18.880 its truth based on that specific variable. So you could say, if you were to say, if you were to say,

00:32:28.320 if you were to say very specifically with regards to finances, women are generally hypergamous,

00:32:35.760 right, they want to date someone who makes more money themselves, I would say yes, right. But a

00:32:39.920 lot of the red pill guys, right, they put everything to hypergamy. So when a woman dates a guy who's,

00:32:44.560 you know, like you said, you mentioned that the kind of anecdotal idea of like,

00:32:48.880 a guy who's a hot criminal, right? You labeled that as hypergamy as well. And it's like, is it?

00:32:54.240 It's like, now we're talking about a different type of thing. We're talking about, you know,

00:32:57.680 women's short term preferences for looks, which is not that doesn't really fit with the hypergamy story.

00:33:03.680 And that's what annoys me about a lot of these, you know, red pill twerps is just talking about

00:33:07.600 like, oh, everything's hypergamy. Everything's hypergamy. Everything. No, it's not. It's not.

00:33:12.320 I'm not saying that it disproves the hypergamy point that we just talked about with money. I'm

00:33:15.680 saying that a lot of the red pill guys, they label that as hypergamy as well. And that doesn't fit.

00:33:19.840 So let me present this option to you. You know, a woman's at a bar. She has 10 men to select from.

00:33:26.800 Some of them are successful. Some are not. One guy just got out of jail. He looks like a total chat.

00:33:31.360 He's a 10 out of 10. He's a good looking guy. He looks like you.

00:33:33.440 He's got the hunter eyes. Right. And. Oh, stop it.

00:33:36.640 But, but he hasn't got a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. And he's sleeping

00:33:40.560 on his sister's couch. She may prioritize him over the other options that night,

00:33:45.360 just because he's the best looking guy as far as options go.

00:33:48.160 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. That's absolutely correct. Yes.

00:33:50.480 Yeah. So, I mean,

00:33:54.400 so let's just go back to the beef with the whole,

00:33:57.760 like red pill and mano swamp and the dating coaches and the pickup artists and all that stuff. So

00:34:01.760 what are the, what are the biggest, um, mistakes or maybe the, uh, awful pieces of advice or pieces

00:34:10.800 that you see out there over and over again, that seem to frustrate you. Cause I know there's,

00:34:14.960 there's quite a few, right. That just don't. Yeah. There's quite a, there's quite a few,

00:34:19.280 there's quite a few. I mean, most of my beef actually, to be honest, mate,

00:34:22.080 a lot of my beef isn't with specific pieces of advice per se. It's specific elements of the

00:34:33.440 worldview. So hypergamy is an example of that where it's like, okay, you're talking hypergamy,

00:34:38.080 hypergamy, hypergamy. And then the situation that you just described in the bar where it's like,

00:34:43.520 okay, so she chose the guy who's lowest status, least amount of money, right? Lower status than her,

00:34:48.000 lower education level than her because he's good looking. And it's like, yeah,

00:34:51.760 that looks for short-term mating looks really matter. And that's not, I mean, some of the,

00:34:55.920 some of these guys, they'll be like, oh, that's the, that's the other side to hypergamy. And it's

00:34:59.840 like, okay, everything's hypergamy, right? Everything's hypergamy. Congratulations. You can

00:35:04.400 never be wrong because, because you've already determined that everything's hypergamy, right?

00:35:08.640 Right. I mean, it's just like, it's just a, it's just a, it's just a very simple-minded way of

00:35:12.640 view in the world. You have to pick. Yeah. I think that, yeah, I think you're right about that. Yeah.

00:35:16.640 I think you're right about that. There are a lot of guys that take shit and they sort of run with it

00:35:20.080 in a context just to sort of like reaffirm their ego investments in their life, their life choices,

00:35:26.480 in some case failures, right? Um, you know, they use it to sort of, you know, dismiss, you know,

00:35:30.320 where they are. And I think when I approach, um, you know, the conversations and the videos that I

00:35:35.200 make in the podcast that I do, it's like, look guys, like if I was sitting here talking to a room

00:35:39.680 full of men, don't be a loser, chase excellence. Don't chase women, be good looking. Don't be fat,

00:35:45.600 have some style, you know, get a proper haircut. If you're losing your hair, don't hold on a scrap,

00:35:49.520 shave it off. Like, you know, like the standard sort of things, because it's like, you're not

00:35:54.080 going to do all these things for women's attention or to capture them or to, you know, like rack up

00:36:00.320 a notch count. Like one of the things that frustrates the hell out of me when I was in the Mano Swamp

00:36:04.720 is, is these dipshits that just go on and on about their notch count. They'll actually like have a

00:36:08.560 number and they'll know what it is. And it's like, dude, like, you know, do you count the number of

00:36:12.640 dumps that you take as well too? Like, what else do you count? Right. It's, it's, you know,

00:36:16.720 it's an obsession with something that seems almost like it's absurd and there's more to life than

00:36:21.620 just racking up notches and chasing tail in my opinion. But at the same time, I want guys to

00:36:26.460 understand, look, women are going to prioritize, uh, you know, if you're out at a bar and you want

00:36:31.940 to hook up for short-term dating, the best looking guy, like it doesn't matter that he took the bus there

00:36:36.440 and has tattoos on his face and his neck. She might be a recent, you know, divorcee who's 39 with three

00:36:43.580 kids and they're at her mom's and she's horny and she wants to get it on. She's going to pick him.

00:36:46.800 It doesn't matter. Right. Like I like, I like that you, I like that you, uh, added face and neck

00:36:51.620 after that to avoid hurting my feelings. I appreciate it. Well, I wasn't even thinking about the tattoos you

00:36:57.480 have on your arms, but yes. Okay. But yeah, you know, to the point of, you know, the bad boy look,

00:37:02.860 but it it's to me more like, I like to simplify things in a realm where it's like, just understand

00:37:09.120 that this is kind of what hypergamy is and why it matters. Don't worry about the science and the

00:37:15.960 data. Let Mac can deal with that. You know, he'll do the research and the lectures and the, you know,

00:37:19.740 the papers and the podcast and that sort of stuff. But like the reason why I think, you know, the

00:37:24.680 man of swamp sort of, you know, distills it down to alpha C beta need, or, you know, however else they

00:37:29.020 want to label it is it just simplifies it for guys that just don't understand the

00:37:32.800 basics. You see what I'm saying? Yeah, I know. I, I, I, I understand what's going on. I think,

00:37:37.500 I think that, so here's my main, here are my main beefs with the red pill and then you can decide

00:37:43.140 where we want to take it. Um, first off, a lot of it just seems, it doesn't seem a lot of it is

00:37:48.380 sexist and bitter, right? It's, it's psychologizing women. As an example, like what would be sexist and

00:37:53.800 bitter? Okay. So, so for example, um,

00:37:58.980 well, we, I mean, we could, we could, we could take some of the things that I mentioned at the

00:38:05.620 outside, outside of the conversation. Like when I go on your Twitter, things like, like 90, 90%

00:38:10.360 of women have nothing to offer in relationships other than sex. I'm like, what, what, what, what,

00:38:15.140 like, I think that actually came from a standup comedy routine. A lot of my material comes from

00:38:20.400 standup comedy to get your attention on it because truthfully though, is that, is that really sexist

00:38:29.220 though? Is that really sexist to say that if a man isn't chasing excellence in his life and doing

00:38:35.320 something of some significance, she probably won't stick around. Cause I mean, at the end of the day,

00:38:39.920 the clock does tick down to the end of the relationship, right? If, if he gets lazy and

00:38:45.020 competent, he can't hold a job. He can't provide for the family. I've routinely seen women leave men

00:38:49.420 and in, you know, situations like that. So that's what that really boils down to. And at the same

00:38:53.960 time, saying that, saying that 90% of women have nothing to offer in relationships other than sex,

00:38:59.360 if that's not what it says, all right, let's pull it up, pull it up. You can, uh, you can actually

00:39:06.920 share it on the screen. If you want to hit the present button, I think you'll be able to, uh,

00:39:10.960 plop it up on the bottom screen there. Um, but I mean, like that is actually from, um,

00:39:16.420 Dr. Warren Farrell. Uh, you know, he came to the conclusion in his books and his studies that

00:39:21.740 men are success objects to women and women are sex objects to men. Do you agree with that or disagree

00:39:28.580 with that? I disagree with that. That's not how I view women. And that's also, you know, that's not

00:39:33.800 how I'd want someone viewing my sisters or my colleagues. I mean, that's, yeah.

00:39:38.580 But that's how, but that's how men and women tend to view each other though. Like,

00:39:41.840 like women look at men as success objects, generally speaking, and men look at women as

00:39:46.700 beauty objects. It's why there's no man ever in history. I think you'd be, I think you'd be

00:39:51.220 surprised how much, sorry, I'm scrolling while talking here. Yeah. But, but I mean, it's why

00:39:55.280 you've never heard anybody in history as a guy say, oh, wow, look at the degree on her.

00:40:00.360 Yeah. But I mean, it goes back to the, sorry, I'm trying to find this right now.

00:40:06.200 Okay. Remove sex from a relationship. You will discover that 90% of women have nothing to offer

00:40:18.340 men in relationships. That's a statement. It's, it's, it's amplified to get your attention, but

00:40:25.480 if you, if you take away that, what cost me, like, think about like, I don't know. I mean,

00:40:31.500 I, I definitely don't want, I don't want, I don't want to make that. I don't want to make

00:40:35.780 this, you know, I like a personal beef. Like I want to have an, I want to have an actual

00:40:40.020 discussion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But surely, I mean, like, like you've got a daughter, mate,

00:40:43.740 like surely you wouldn't like, I would, I would absolutely tell my daughter to prioritize her

00:40:50.020 beauty and her purity over getting degrees. Yeah, absolutely.

00:40:53.320 I wouldn't want her getting obese, cutting her hair short, dying it purple, fighting the

00:41:00.760 patriarchy. Like none of that woke nonsense. Absolutely not. Is that what you want your

00:41:05.540 daughter doing?

00:41:06.840 I've, that's, that's not what I said at all. I'm saying, I'm saying that when I, when I read

00:41:14.540 through, when I just scroll through your Twitter, right. Or look at any, and I, and I don't want

00:41:18.480 to make this, I don't want to make this narrowly about you. When I go on any of these, you know,

00:41:22.720 red pill pages, I see if you want to make it about me, it's totally fine.

00:41:26.580 No, no, I know you do. I know you do. I know you do. And I actually do appreciate that. I

00:41:30.020 recognize that, you know, Rolo Tomasi would never have me on his show, right? And they're fresh and

00:41:34.180 fit. They wouldn't have me on their show, that kind of thing. And it's like, I recognize that

00:41:37.580 it's like, you know, um, I'm, I'm, I'm genuinely grateful that you're willing to have a discussion

00:41:44.280 with me, but when I go through these red pill guys's feed, right. And any of them, it's just,

00:41:50.960 I'm like, wow, you really view women. It really seems like they all view women as just purely

00:41:58.260 objects for their sexual entertainment, as opposed to fully fledged human beings.

00:42:04.320 You know, I don't, I mean, I've got a girlfriend, I've got a daughter, I've got a mother.

00:42:08.980 Yeah. They're, they're, they're all, they're all, I've got lots of women in my life.

00:42:12.900 Yeah, I know you do. And that's why I find surprising.

00:42:15.340 We hate women or be, I didn't, I didn't say you hate, I didn't say you hate women. I said

00:42:19.680 that a lot of these days.

00:42:20.820 Would you call it a sexist? Sexist was what you call it.

00:42:23.300 Yeah. It's like, to me, it's like, if this isn't sexist, I don't know what is. And I don't

00:42:26.760 want this to devolve into, I don't want, I also don't want this to devolve into just name calling,

00:42:31.440 right? That doesn't seem like a productive use of our time. But if you're asking me what my issue

00:42:35.480 with the red pill is, it's like, that's one of the core issues. It's like this attitude towards

00:42:39.660 women that seems to view them purely as objects for sex, as opposed to, again, fully fledged human

00:42:46.740 beings. And I know that all the comments are gonna be white knights, simp, cuck. I don't care. It's

00:42:50.260 fine. It's like, surely like, and you said yourself, you know, you got a sister-in-law, you got a mother,

00:42:57.480 you got a daughter, you got a girlfriend, right? Surely they're more to you than that. So much more

00:43:02.960 like that. Yeah. And, and they absolutely are macking, but they would never call me sexist.

00:43:08.400 Right. Like, well, I know they may not like the way in which I present certain, certain, uh,

00:43:14.680 information. Cause I mean, keep in mind, like Twitter is microblogging, right? It's, it's very

00:43:20.300 short stuff. Right. And I recognize that Twitter, Twitter often brings out the worst in people. And

00:43:25.100 in truth, you know, in what, in reading, in reading your book and watching your video and watching your

00:43:29.600 videos, there, there are some attitudes I disagree with, but it does seem that, uh, it does seem that

00:43:33.920 Twitter has managed to, to take out the most, the most, uh, offensive. But I'm trying to understand

00:43:39.860 how, you know, stating that men are success objects to women and women are beauty objects to men is a

00:43:47.700 sexist statement. I don't think, I, I think that you would agree that men and women are different.

00:43:51.920 You said sex objects. Sex objects, beauty objects. Yeah. But I mean, like, I think that you would agree

00:43:56.240 that men and women are different in many ways than they are in probably just as many ways as they are

00:44:02.300 similar, if not more. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty obvious that there are, that there are

00:44:06.260 psychological sex differences. So why would it be sexist to view the behavior of men's mate choices

00:44:14.480 as men looking at women as beauty objects? Cause I think we're doing a disservice when we tell women

00:44:20.900 to go and climb the corporate ladder and chase excellence, because here's, here's what I see

00:44:25.700 that, that, that is, that is a complete disservice to, to women. And I'm starting to talk to more and

00:44:31.520 more women. I've already had conversations with hundreds of them, but I want to move this into

00:44:35.240 the thousands so that it, so that it starts to corroborate a little bit more, but I'm starting to

00:44:39.660 see women. If you want to move it, if you want to move it into the thousands, you're going to have

00:44:42.480 to focus a little less on being salacious on Twitter and more on, you know. Well, well, we'll see how that

00:44:47.680 goes. I have a new podcast I'm doing Monday nights called a ladies night. So make sure you guys follow

00:44:53.040 the unplugged alpha podcast. But what I'm starting to see is, is a lot of women that are, that are

00:44:58.940 basically like, I'm 37, 38, 39, 40. I feel like I've missed the boat. I've, I've done what I was told.

00:45:07.440 You know, I got the degrees. I climbed the corporate ladder. I bought the house. I have the Mercedes C

00:45:12.300 class. I framed my degrees in mahogany and put them on the wall and presented them to everybody.

00:45:16.900 I have my little white dog. I have 17 pillows on my bed and a beautifully decorated and organized

00:45:22.340 house. But where is my man? Where, like, why can't I find this guy? Yeah. Yeah. That's a real

00:45:27.700 problem. Yeah. I mean, look, we have been lied to, and they've been told to basically go and become men

00:45:33.520 because everything that they've done to get to this point where they now don't have families and they

00:45:39.380 feel like they're missing the boat and they're unable to, uh, basically meet that strong burning

00:45:45.300 biological need to reproduce. You know, a biological clock is, you know, the, the eggs are starting to

00:45:50.180 dry up, you know, if you will. Um, they feel like they've been let down and I'm starting to see a lot

00:45:54.580 of women that have complaints about that. And it's like, you know, I kind of wish I didn't do this now.

00:45:59.460 I kind of wish that I prioritize finding a good guy and suddenly now and early and having that family

00:46:05.660 rather than do all this stuff because it's not fulfilling. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a very,

00:46:11.480 that, that's, that's a very different. Because that's now taking science and setting that aside.

00:46:19.720 That's like now dealing with a human being, right? Yeah. Yeah. I understand where I understand

00:46:23.460 where you're getting at. I guess, I guess we'll just put a pin in my issues with, you know, some,

00:46:30.820 some of the, the bitterness and vibe and we can talk about, I mean, I, I view this as a separate

00:46:34.620 conversation. I think that you're, you're viewing it as an integrated one. Whereas it's like, we can

00:46:38.860 talk about, you know, women's mating strategies, what's effective, what's not right. And, and it is a

00:46:45.420 real problem. This idea of like, Oh, you focus on your career, focus on your career, focus on your

00:46:49.440 career. And it's like, Oh, you know, now I'm 38 and all my friends are married and I focused on my

00:46:57.900 career too long. And now I want to have a family, but now I've got to find a guy. How long does that

00:47:02.240 take? I've got to vet the guy. How long does that take? Right. I'm going to actually go through the

00:47:06.660 process of reproducing, which doesn't happen overnight. It's like, yeah, that's a very tough

00:47:10.820 situation because you know, the process of starting from zero to finding a man, meeting a man, you know,

00:47:16.720 mutually selecting each other and getting pregnant, all of that, that can take, uh, that's, that's

00:47:22.700 typically like a five-year process. So I appreciate that. It's like, yes, some people are going to

00:47:27.640 focus on their career towards too late for too, for too long. There are some men in that situation,

00:47:32.380 but you know, for mechanical reasons, it's just less likely for a man to find himself in that

00:47:36.360 situation. Uh, most men are, you know, still there, there, there is, you know, a decline in genetic

00:47:41.420 quality. There are reasons to have kids younger as a man. Um, but it doesn't, but fertility doesn't

00:47:46.820 hard stop the way it does with women. So I appreciate that there's a difference there.

00:47:50.600 Yeah. I think it's a real issue, but I, but I will just say is that like, for me, this is a

00:47:56.160 separate conversation topic, mate. Like we can, we can talk about that, but we're talking about it

00:48:00.300 very separately from saying things like, Oh, women are sex objects, right? We can perhaps do a part two,

00:48:04.500 making, making fun of Taylor Swift's body on Twitter. It's like, uh, I used to teach seventh

00:48:10.520 graders and it's like, if they were saying this type of joke, I'd be like, this is guys, guys,

00:48:15.520 like we gotta, we gotta be a little better. Well, fortunately I'm not your student and I'm old

00:48:20.040 enough to crack jokes, right? Which I, I mean, it does say in my Twitter bio that there's going to

00:48:25.260 be a little bit of comedy here in this feed. So yeah. And you know what? And that's the other thing

00:48:30.380 is that it could be, it could be, it could be just, it could be just a difference in sense of

00:48:35.180 humor. Um, and I appreciate that, you know, there's going to be a spectrum as to what's,

00:48:39.780 what's appreciated. I suppose that, I suppose that on the other side of things, it's like,

00:48:45.900 because it's mixed in with, you know, very, you know, very serious statements and it's just,

00:48:53.760 it's just hard for me to say, but, uh, but you know, I also don't want to, I'm not a fan of taking

00:48:59.240 people out of context. I'm not a fan of, you know, reading the worst possible version, um,

00:49:06.680 into whatever you're saying. So it's like, if you, if you say that you meant when you said,

00:49:13.240 you know, 90% of women have nothing to offer, but sex and relationships, if you are saying that

00:49:18.560 that's just a provocative version of saying that men really value physical attractiveness,

00:49:23.020 then that, then that's, that, you know, no men really value sex in a relationship.

00:49:30.060 Oh yeah, definitely. Definitely. But, but I, I assumed because you said,

00:49:33.960 I think that if you were to ask men, you know, that are getting married, one of the reasons why

00:49:38.640 they select marriage is because they think they're going to have, uh, access to wild,

00:49:44.740 crazy sex into perpetuity. And, you know, that's like one of the conversations that I often have a lot

00:49:49.780 of the times is that, you know, like you have to understand, like when you get into a long-term

00:49:53.320 relationship and there's comfort and you live together and you get married, you invite the

00:49:56.460 state in your house. Like sex is like one of the things that usually goes away or diminishes.

00:50:00.700 Like there's very few people that are like, Oh yeah, that's a conversation we can have as well.

00:50:04.700 Yeah. Yeah. That's a conversation we can have as well about sex. I want to go back to the,

00:50:08.140 I do not think, I do not think though, but just to jump in, I do not think that most men

00:50:12.340 are getting married for wild and crazy sex. I think that's a lot easier. That's a lot easier to get outside.

00:50:17.600 Okay. So let's come back to that in a minute. But I mean, I also want to talk about the, um,

00:50:20.940 you know, cause we're talking about how women are beauty objects and men are success objects. So

00:50:24.840 in, you know, the statement of that fact, I encourage men to chase excellence because

00:50:29.740 men want women around, right? And if you want to keep a woman around and in your frame and in your

00:50:35.280 life and as a compliment to your life, you can't be a dipshit, right? Like I, I've, I've lost count of

00:50:41.480 the conversations that I've had with women. Uh, you know, when I was dating after I got divorced,

00:50:46.020 where that, and I talked about this in my book, so I know that you've seen it where it's like,

00:50:50.580 you know, like, why did you guys break up and why did you get divorced? And there was a lot of,

00:50:53.640 well, he was a beta, he was incompetent. He couldn't hold down a job. He couldn't provide

00:50:57.500 for the family and women routinely leave men in long-term relationships and marriages.

00:51:02.440 If they see the guy is incompetent and not a winner, they want to look up to a giant.

00:51:08.660 Okay. Um, and I think, you know that, and that's why I'm telling guys chase excellence,

00:51:13.480 right? Like men are success objects to women. I don't think Dr. Warren Farrell is

00:51:18.300 inaccurate or wrong there. You may disagree with the, with the assessment, but I still believe.

00:51:25.380 And, you know, like if you've got some evidence that disproves it, that men and women look at each

00:51:30.240 other in this general sense, broadly speaking, there are exceptions, you know, there are.

00:51:34.640 Yeah, I think it's okay. So we'll, we'll let's, let's get into the nuance of it. So I think that,

00:51:38.180 I think that we've spent enough time and, you know, one of my goals for this show is not to

00:51:42.340 devolve into like, it's just not my personality to be, you know, on a show. Like you can tell

00:51:48.640 that I'm, that I'm, that I'm uncomfortable with, with, you know, having to say that, you know,

00:51:53.360 I actually find this to be harmful as a, as a statement. It's, it's not, it's not, it's not

00:51:59.260 really in my natural, um, natural repertoire to just be covering the sort of thing. So I would like

00:52:05.340 to, let's just talk about the facts for a second in terms of the, in terms of the factual side of

00:52:09.460 that. So we can talk about the, the phrasing, how I find it uncomfortable. We can talk about

00:52:14.160 the phrasing, how it's like, I think that it's harmful to women. Like I wouldn't want like my

00:52:17.820 little, my little sister reading a tweet like that. It's just like, what? Like this is not how

00:52:22.160 women should be told. Your little sister should not be following me on, on Twitter. I'm not for

00:52:26.060 little sisters. Well, I think she can handle it. It's more just, it's more just in terms of,

00:52:32.860 I wouldn't, I wouldn't want that to be the mentality that she takes on for herself. Um,

00:52:37.560 but let's talk about, let's talk about the underlying. So you're, you're saying that it

00:52:41.020 gets at an underlying truth, which is that men, women care about men's success, right? And men care

00:52:47.500 about women's bodies. Right. And I'd say that there, there, there's definitely some truth to

00:52:51.560 that in the sense that when we look at, when we look at both behavioral and survey data, but

00:52:56.780 especially survey data, we see these big sex differences where it's like women care a lot more

00:53:01.480 about ambition, which is a proxy for resources about education, which is a proxy for resources

00:53:06.980 about resources themselves. Right. So that's, that's success. And then we also see on the other

00:53:11.800 side of that, that men, when you ask them, they care significantly more than women about physical

00:53:20.660 attractiveness, right? And youth, which is a pro relative youth. It depends. Younger men.

00:53:25.760 So you're basically saying what I said in the tweet in a much more pleasant way.

00:53:29.700 I'm well, well, let me wait, hang on a second. Hang on a second. Hang on. All right. Keep going.

00:53:34.120 Keep going. I'm getting there. Um, yeah, I guess, I guess, I guess I'm, I guess I'm slightly more

00:53:39.240 pleasant, but the, um, but there's also, let's talk. That won't get retweeted 5,000 times.

00:53:45.620 Yeah. Well, it'll, it'll do well on Tik TOK. Um, maybe if, um, yeah, that, that, that's a funny

00:53:53.780 idea of us, us saying the same thing and my following being almost entirely women and, uh, your

00:53:58.600 following being almost entirely men, but do you ever get criticized by your audience for being a

00:54:02.560 misogynist or hating women or a sexist or anything like that? Like you've ever heard that? Cause I

00:54:06.360 mean, there are some statements that you've made that I've also said, but I mean, you just say it

00:54:10.480 differently. Yeah. I mean, I think that, I think that, I think that, that the, the delivery matters

00:54:16.500 because it often reflects an underlying, it reflects the underlying attitude. Like I'm, I tend to

00:54:21.500 it's a matter of time before you get hit with something like that. Cause I don't think that a guy

00:54:24.660 like Jordan Peterson anticipated, uh, you know, being called names like that. And well, Jordan,

00:54:29.820 Jordan Peterson's following was like 95% male. Um, my following is like 95% female. So in any case,

00:54:37.060 and I know, I know I'm going to get the, I can, I'm going to get more. I can't, I can't see comments

00:54:42.040 right now, but I'm sure it's, you know, blue pill. I just ignore them. Well, it's one of the things

00:54:47.540 it's like, it's like cry harder. Like it's just every single time I say something like this, I get all

00:54:52.880 those comments, but in any case, let's, let's, let's wind back to the point, right? Those sex

00:54:59.720 differences are based on survey data. And earlier in this conversation, we both came to agreement.

00:55:04.540 It's like, Hey, survey data, not quite enough. When you look at behavioral data, it's actually

00:55:10.440 very surprising how much more women care about looks than they say, and how much less they care

00:55:17.160 about money and status and resources in practice. I'm not saying that they don't care about it more

00:55:21.360 than men. They absolutely do, but they care about it proportionately less than this is kind of a

00:55:27.280 statistically hard thing to explain. Uh, so, so I'm, I'm, I'm a hundred. Where are you getting this

00:55:31.720 data from? Is this from surveys? I, no, no, no, no. It's, it's, it's, it's actually a, I believe it's

00:55:36.860 a 2015. I'll be able to send you the study afterwards. Um, but I'm not, I'm not making this

00:55:42.420 up. Um, it's, I mean, if you're, but if you're getting this data, then I'm assuming that you're

00:55:46.200 asking women what they're choosing men based on and they're stating that it's not based on

00:55:52.840 finances. So I'm getting to that. So that would be the degree that we would expect that it would

00:55:56.560 be. That would be survey data. That would be survey data. Right. And for the survey data,

00:55:59.960 we do see these large sex differences, but let's look at the behavioral data because earlier you

00:56:04.060 mentioned, it's like, Hey, what, what people say and what they do, they're two different things.

00:56:08.420 And when you look at the behavioral data, for example, like speed dating studies, these are great,

00:56:12.380 very interesting. Basically you get tons of people in a room, you have them do speed dating

00:56:16.180 and you see real life mate selection. It's like who actually wants to see each other again.

00:56:21.000 Yeah. It's all based on practice. What do we see? We see that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Is that looks

00:56:28.100 come up at a way higher level for women than they said. Right. And status and resources,

00:56:33.840 they do make a difference, right? Like, like having a higher education level, having a higher salary,

00:56:39.300 these things. But I think that we're in agreement because at the end of the day,

00:56:42.660 looks are most important for something like, you know, dating apps, swiping, like the vast majority

00:56:48.480 of swipes are not based on his bio, how much he makes, what his job is. It's the first photo

00:56:53.820 sort of thing, but it's just like, okay, so now we've made the connection. Maybe I'm at a time in my

00:56:59.460 life, you know, if I'm a gal where I want to settle down and have a family. So I need a guy that can,

00:57:03.440 that has adequate genes at a bare minimum, you know, but there are women that like,

00:57:10.260 one of the things that I find interesting. So women will cuck men, right? So let's talk about

00:57:14.120 that. Right. So, so if a woman goes and sleeps with another guy. Can we quickly, I actually do

00:57:18.200 want to, so I've, I've run studies on infidelity and I can talk about, I can talk about the infidelity

00:57:22.200 studies in depth. That's, that's something that that's what I wrote my master's dissertation at

00:57:25.760 Oxford on. So we can, we can really get into that, but I do want to just drill down on this point

00:57:30.060 with the women. Men are success objects. Women are beauty objects, right? That sex difference.

00:57:35.940 It's like, there's some support for that in the stated preference data. There's less support for,

00:57:42.560 and you said that, you know, you prefer behavioral data over survey data. So I'm telling you what the

00:57:46.620 behavioral data is. This is dating apps, right? This is speed dating studies. This is interpartner

00:57:52.660 correlation. So actual relationships, what, what level they're at, that kind of thing. And what do we say?

00:57:57.500 We see that men do put a higher priority on looks than women, right? And women do put a higher

00:58:03.740 priority on things like education, status, et cetera. But men care more about education, status,

00:58:10.500 et cetera, than they say. And women care more about looks than they say. And so what does that actually

00:58:17.780 look like? That would make the tweet so much more boring Mac. And if I had to put a footnote, like

00:58:22.220 in certain situations, you know, reference to the study in 2015. My point is that in practice,

00:58:31.080 it's like men are beauty objects too, right? Whether women say it or not, men are beauty objects.

00:58:36.360 I have no disagreement with that. There's an entire community of black pill guys out there that

00:58:39.760 totally believe that too, right? Yeah. Well, that's the thing. That's the thing. The two

00:58:45.940 misinterpretations of me are that I'm just a devote, um, blue pill or that I'm, I'm, I'm.

00:58:51.960 No, I don't think so. I think that, I think that you're a scientist that, that, that is,

00:58:56.600 is so narrow in thinking with data that it's like, you're like a horse with blinders that sees

00:59:02.980 scientific data and that's, and that's what you rely on. But there's certain areas.

00:59:08.180 It's my hunter eyes. They take away my peripherals. See, that's the problem, man. You know, you get

00:59:13.520 the good looks with the hunter eyes, but you don't get the peripherals. Um, okay. So let's talk about

00:59:17.160 the, um, cucking thing, right? So if, cause I mean, like we were talking about the prioritization

00:59:23.600 of, um, mates and looks and resources and all that sort of thing. So, you know, there's this dual

00:59:29.480 mating strategy. I don't know if you agree or disagree with it. I know there's been some kind

00:59:32.660 of flip-flopping in the Evo psych, you know, community like it exists. Maybe it doesn't exist.

00:59:36.460 We're not sure about it. We need to study it more like, because it, because based on behavior

00:59:41.520 and we can't get accurate data on this, which I find so fascinating. Like I tried to find

00:59:45.760 at least some sort of relevant, specific tailored data to it, but it relies on women making women

00:59:52.980 look bad, admitting that they've caught the, uh, guy who, who thinks that they're the father.

00:59:58.060 And I talked about this. There is some good data on this. There is some good data on this.

01:00:01.380 I couldn't find anything. Like it was anywhere from like anywhere from 10 to 30%, depending on where

01:00:06.120 you got the information from based on behavior, not on survey. But if women will go and get

01:00:11.480 pregnant by the hot dude and then tell, you know, the average guy, it's your kid. And then he has

01:00:17.640 to raise it. Like, how do you, you know, how do you contend with that? Cause that's something that

01:00:21.000 the man of swamp seems to get right. Yeah. So that's, so that's interesting that this is,

01:00:26.580 this is, this is, you're really, we've, we've finally gotten to, into my, let's, let's do it,

01:00:33.520 man. Yeah. Yeah. So look, the female infidelity debate has been a very complicated, contentious

01:00:41.440 one. Uh, it's, it's, it's quite a confused one at some points. We mentioned the ovulation shift

01:00:46.460 thing earlier, uh, where it's like, Oh, it seems like they're shifting preferences for looks and

01:00:51.640 masculinity at ovulation. And then newer data, it's like, Hmm, not, not so much. Right. Then you look

01:00:57.440 at, and then, so this caused a bunch of scientists to come out with this new idea. They're like, well,

01:01:01.320 what if it's mostly mate switching, right? Maybe some women are doing this, but what if it's mostly

01:01:05.660 mate switching? And basically, so mate switching, it sounds like it is what it sounds like. It's this

01:01:10.920 idea that when women have affairs, they're looking for a new boyfriend or a new husband. Right.

01:01:15.440 So I saw that and I was like, well, maybe, but, but when you, but as you say, like, it's like the,

01:01:22.020 I don't completely discount personal experience. It's like, is that really right? That when most

01:01:28.780 women have affairs, they're looking for a new boyfriend, like that doesn't seem like they want

01:01:34.060 out. Like when women have affairs, it's not generally for a variety, like men do it for it's

01:01:39.480 more for, because they want an exit strategy. They're kind of done with the guy at that point.

01:01:43.560 Yeah. So that was that, that was, that was the mate switching hypothesis.

01:01:50.000 I, I personally, so I might be slightly biased because, because so now you can call it the dual

01:01:56.780 mating hypothesis. We'll keep it with that, but I want to make, I want to put a real, we'll keep

01:02:00.760 calling it the dual mating strategy hypothesis. Cause that's what most red pill guys call it.

01:02:05.280 But I want to put a really big flag down that you can talk about that independently of ovulation

01:02:11.360 shifts. Right. So just logically, it's possible that women have no preference shifts at ovulation

01:02:17.720 at all, but they're still up. They're still having a dual mating strategy because they prioritize

01:02:22.840 different things in short-term mates versus long-term mates, different things in a fair partners,

01:02:27.740 right. Versus long-term partners.

01:02:31.300 Correct. And so you can't always find it in the same guy. So that's why there seems to be a little bit

01:02:35.740 of flip-flopping with that. Yeah. Yes. And that's why there's also some confusion is that

01:02:39.820 the vast majority of women, at least at any one given time, I'm not saying across the entire life

01:02:45.140 course, but the vast majority of women at any one given time are enacting a, you know, single mating

01:02:51.680 strategy, let's call it. I mean, that doesn't sound as good as dual mating strategy, but it's like

01:02:55.240 they're getting genes and investment from one partner, right? The dual mating strategy basically

01:03:00.760 posits that if women are looking for genes and investment, and it's based off of, it's based off

01:03:07.220 other animals where we know this is happening, right? Like we're, we're very confident that some

01:03:11.280 species of birds are enacting a dual mating strategy. Why are we confident in that? Well, we, we look at

01:03:16.720 the paternity rates and we see that, Oh, you know, a lot of the eggs don't belong to the male who's

01:03:21.380 raising the eggs. Right. Um, and then who did she mate with in terms of reproduction? She mated with

01:03:28.180 a better looking male, right? A male, a better looking according, according to birds, probably

01:03:32.600 because the male's more robust, right? He has better plumage, that kind of thing. Measurable,

01:03:36.920 measurable traits that seem to be attractive. And there's, so this, there's this theoretical idea

01:03:40.820 that maybe women are doing the same thing sometimes, right? Maybe some women who cheat,

01:03:44.740 um, are, and are, are driven by the same underlying evolved psychology. So let's, let's talk about the

01:03:52.280 evidence for that. The ovulation shift idea doesn't seem to have borne out, right? I I'm, I'm half and

01:04:00.020 half on it. Maybe we'll see what the next 10 years of research show, but in terms of, in terms of

01:04:07.260 researching this stuff for, so I've been, I mean, this has been what I've, what I've done since

01:04:13.180 undergrad and I've done a master. I mean, like, like, like as humans, like how long have we been

01:04:17.040 researching evolutionary, you know, psychology and human behavior? Like this has been going on for a long

01:04:21.400 time. It's about the eighties. Why do we need another 10 years to study this? Like, why can't

01:04:25.160 we sort of settle on what we have here? It's more that it, well, usually science is quite stable

01:04:30.380 and building, right? So, so I, I, I really don't want to lose the kind of train of thought with the

01:04:34.940 infidelity stuff, but, but just to jump in on that one point and then we'll circle back to it.

01:04:39.320 So everyone kind of put pause on, uh, explaining the evidence for female infidelity. So sometimes

01:04:44.980 science, it's just home run after home run after home run building on a case, right? So one example

01:04:51.220 of that is the idea that men care more about looks than women, right? Or men care more about relative

01:04:57.860 youth than women, right? Like, yes, when women start to get older, they do start to find younger

01:05:02.140 men attractive, but it's not the same. It's not, it's not to the same degree near, not even, not

01:05:06.620 even close. Right. And it's like the first studies that showed that were in the early 1900s. Right.

01:05:12.680 And then the ones that were cross-cultural were in the eighties. Right. And then it's just been year

01:05:17.980 after year, home run after home run, after home run. That's true. Right. No matter how you measure

01:05:23.500 it, whether you measure it with behavior, whether you measure it with surveys, whether you measure

01:05:27.260 it with dating apps, all these new methods come out and then the new methods show the same thing.

01:05:30.940 Right. So sometimes science works like that, where it's just building, building, building,

01:05:34.720 but sometimes it's a little more complicated. Right. So in the nineties, we came out with this. Um,

01:05:40.760 I'm saying we scientists in general came out with this, uh, specifically gangestead came out with this idea

01:05:46.620 where it's like, okay, well, if women prioritize genes more in short-term mating, right. Cues to

01:05:51.740 genetic quality and short-term mating, and they prioritize cues to paternal investment more in,

01:05:56.780 in long-term mating. Um, and that bears as well, then we should expect a shift at ovulation because you

01:06:04.520 can only get pregnant for, you know, a few days a month, but you can get investment for the whole month.

01:06:09.560 Right. So we should see a shift. Right. They did. Right. Those early studies. And then this is the

01:06:17.240 reason you need to build on them. Those early studies, which were confirmatory, they validated

01:06:21.540 the hypothesis. They had small sample sizes. Right. And they had primitive methods. Right. So they were

01:06:27.660 using, they were, they were just having women count from menstruation, not using like a hormonal test

01:06:31.940 or anything like that. So you can see why it's like, okay, we need more research on this because

01:06:39.620 it's like those, those initial studies weren't quite perfect. So you need to do them better again.

01:06:44.820 And so the initial studies were supportive and then the follow-up studies were kind of mixed.

01:06:52.180 The ones with better methods is like, sometimes we find an effect. Sometimes we don't a little

01:06:56.340 controversial. And now the next, so whether there's an effect or not, what the current state of the

01:07:01.280 evidence seems to be that if there is an effect across the population, it's a small effect,

01:07:05.580 the next generation of studies, what we're going to see over the next 10 years with the ovulation

01:07:09.840 shift stuff. And we're already starting to see this rich is that we're going to look at

01:07:14.360 whether the shift occurs for individual women.

01:07:23.420 Oh, you're frozen up my friend. You still there?

01:07:31.280 Macken, can you hear me?

01:07:34.100 Still here. Can you hear me?

01:07:35.580 Yeah, you're freezing up. Kill your video feed for a little bit just so we can get some clean

01:07:40.520 audio and then maybe just turn it back on.

01:07:44.320 Can you hear me?

01:07:45.720 Yeah.

01:07:47.620 Sorry, man. You froze up for about five or 10 seconds there.

01:07:51.580 Oh, bummer. Bummer. Sorry to everyone on the live stream.

01:07:54.700 So what was I saying though?

01:07:56.680 Oh, yeah.

01:07:57.620 Just back up about 10 seconds.

01:07:58.880 One real common idea is the idea that women who are paired with unattractive.

01:08:07.700 Okay. So women who are-

01:08:09.500 You know what, Macken, just stop for a second. Yeah, just turn off your video feed just so

01:08:13.100 we have audio only. Let that clean up and then we can turn the video on maybe in like

01:08:16.880 10 or 15 seconds.

01:08:19.440 How do I turn off my video?

01:08:21.180 Just on the bottom of your screen, you'll have stop cam. Yeah, there you go.

01:08:25.420 Okay, cool.

01:08:26.560 Boom.

01:08:26.800 So what do we say? Can you hear me now?

01:08:29.200 Yeah, you're good. So just back up about 10 seconds.

01:08:32.160 Yeah. So the methods, the later methods that were used that were better didn't manage to find

01:08:38.760 quite the same effects, right? Was that well understood?

01:08:42.760 Yeah.

01:08:42.980 And now the reason that I said, hey, we'll see what happens in the next 10 years is that the

01:08:48.840 current studies on this topic are looking at this phenomenon in a more nuanced way. So it's

01:08:54.520 possible, for example, that maybe women experience shifts in preferences at ovulation if their

01:09:00.860 primary partner has cues to genetic quality that aren't sufficient, right? So maybe he's physically

01:09:07.360 unattractive, right? And so that primes them to have a shift. That's possible. So that's what the next

01:09:14.680 studies would be. That's how science sometimes works. We get better methods, we get more nuanced

01:09:19.260 theories, and then we have to keep testing them. Sometimes, though, you know, like, yeah.

01:09:23.760 I think that you're going to find that this is going to be very, very difficult to pinpoint to

01:09:30.700 an exact science because women's behavior changes based on their age, based on where they are in

01:09:38.320 their relation cycle, based on what their options are, like what their own sexual marketplace value,

01:09:43.580 you know, would happen to be. Like, I think a four has different options or might behave differently

01:09:48.940 than a nine or a 10, you know, for example. I mean, I look forward to seeing what you guys come

01:09:55.560 up with in this space, because I think it's compelling and very interesting. I also wanted

01:10:00.220 to ask you, you know, since you've studied infidelity, what are your thoughts on humans

01:10:06.680 as a species? Like, are they monogamous? Are we monogamish? Are we non-monogamous? Like,

01:10:12.100 what do you think our mating strategy should be based on your scientific research?

01:10:17.580 Yeah. So I guess, I guess just to wrap up on the, um, on the cuckoldry thing, and then I definitely

01:10:24.580 will answer that question. Um, but because, because I was, I was, I was in the middle of

01:10:28.500 explaining before I just had to jump into explaining why science progresses the way it does

01:10:32.740 on the cuckoldry thing rates really vary, but we see, I think, but in the West, when you do a random

01:10:39.740 sample, if you do a self, if you do a self-selected sample where it's men who suspect that their baby

01:10:45.580 isn't theirs, then yeah, you get the rates you're talking about like 30%, right? Yeah.

01:10:49.780 But when you do a random sample, which is the only valid way to do it, right? The only, the only valid

01:10:54.780 way to test, um, the rates of extra pair paternity is to do a random sample. And usually those rates

01:11:00.560 are 2%. Sometimes they're 1%, right? So about one in 50, that's low that, well, is it low though?

01:11:07.440 I mean, imagine a room full of 50 people and it's like, Oh, one of you has a dad. That's not your

01:11:12.460 dad. And this is with contraception. This is in the context of condoms, birth control, IUDs, right now

01:11:19.640 let's talk, but that doesn't necessarily, so that doesn't necessarily reflect human nature. When you

01:11:23.760 look at natural fertility populations, when you do random sampling of natural fertility populations,

01:11:28.940 and again, this is, this is going to be more accurate to our ancestry. You see higher rates.

01:11:34.880 So there was a, there was a rural American community that didn't have a lot of contraception

01:11:39.160 among them. It was about 10%, right? Um,

01:11:42.260 Oh, your audio froze up again. I like,

01:11:48.120 Oh, I'm not sure what's happening, mate. I'm sorry. Do you want to, um, maybe leave and come

01:11:55.000 back in and see if that fixes it? Just, uh, here I'll, I mean, if you just leave the studio

01:11:59.020 and then click the join link again, see if that fixes it. Sometimes it hangs up or something's up.

01:12:03.620 Oh, okay. All right. Well, I, is it the same link?

01:12:08.300 Yeah, it's the exact same link.

01:12:10.360 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let me see.

01:12:12.180 Yeah. So just leave and then come back in and then just start with your, um, audio only. Sorry

01:12:16.300 about this guys. You know, sometimes when you do these live podcasts, it's, it just such as life,

01:12:20.900 maybe the, uh, internet connection to Australia is what we need it to be tonight. Um, but I think you

01:12:26.800 make some, you know, compelling points and, you know, while he's a scientist and everything that

01:12:32.440 he's delivering is based on scientific research and his studies and all sorts of stuff, you know,

01:12:36.400 I think that it's important to have these conversations because if you miss out on this,

01:12:39.700 uh, you know, discussion, then you live in an echo chamber, which is what you'll notice

01:12:43.500 the Manoswap generally speaking as welcome back, man.

01:12:46.340 Hey, thank you. Sorry about that. It looks like, it looks like we're, we're rolling again.

01:12:50.160 So it looks like we're good. Awesome. Yeah. So, um, yeah. So talk about, yeah, on cuckoldry,

01:12:55.940 I'll just jump in. Cause this, this is really one of my areas of interest and we just finished

01:13:00.780 a study on infidelity on women's infidelity specifically. And for what it's worth, what

01:13:05.120 do we find? Uh, I mean, I'll, I'll send, I'll send you the manuscript when it, when it comes out.

01:13:09.560 Um, but yeah, on average, when women have affairs, they have affairs with better looking guys,

01:13:15.780 guys who are better looking than their primary partner. And this was, this was, I mean, I think

01:13:22.840 that I wouldn't use those terms, but in terms of the basic concept that hot guys are the affair

01:13:31.540 partners. And then they also found that. So basically the gist of it was on average. Yeah.

01:13:37.980 My affair partner is better looking. The guy I'm with would make a better dad. Right. Right.

01:13:43.280 So that's, you know, yeah. And that's for women who cheat now, again, most women, most women in the

01:13:51.040 specific, I'm not saying most women across the course of their lifetime, but most women at any

01:13:55.040 given moment, right. It's going to be one guy at a time. They're going to be getting, you know,

01:13:58.920 the genes and investment from one partner. Um, but yeah, it does fit. It does kind of fit the

01:14:03.820 pattern of songbirds where it's, or some, some songbirds where it's like, yeah, the more robust,

01:14:08.500 better looking male is the affair partner and the better parent is the primary partner. However,

01:14:15.400 if you look at the data and more granular level, you see that women cheat for many, many reasons,

01:14:19.980 like these super simple rules. It's like some women are mate switching. Like there were women in our

01:14:24.680 sample who, when we asked them, it's like, Hey, why did you cheat? They were like, Oh, because I was

01:14:29.320 in love with my affair partner. Right. Like I, like I loved him and we ended up getting married later.

01:14:34.800 It's like, that's not really, that doesn't really fit with the, what do you guys call it? Like the

01:14:39.280 AFBB paradigm. It's like, that doesn't really fit with that. That's, that's a, that's a little,

01:14:44.540 that's more like mate switching, but for the most part, it is. But again, that's what, that's a

01:14:49.040 survey response. Um, you'd have to ask more questions hooked up to a lie detector to get the

01:14:54.940 exact data that you'd need. Right. So, so what we did, so if you're interested in a method,

01:15:01.220 there, there are a few ways that you can get around it. Right. Um, now this, this isn't

01:15:06.360 perfect. There are some, there are some studies that are, that are completely non-behavioral

01:15:10.440 where it's like you measure men's shoulder ratios and things like that and other traits

01:15:15.240 that, um, and it's like, Hey, have you ever, have you ever slept with a woman who's had a

01:15:21.740 boyfriend or whatever? And it's like, yeah, guys who are hotter, who have traits that are

01:15:26.300 considered hotter, uh, generally do that more. Um, that's not perfect evidence, but it, but

01:15:31.980 it gets more of the thing. Uh, it gets more of the behavioral stuff that you're looking

01:15:34.960 for. If you want to get some really interesting behavioral stuff, interview a male stripper.

01:15:40.540 Interesting. I've had, I've had two on my podcast and the stories that they tell are unreal about

01:15:45.580 women's behavior at their little parties. Yeah. I mean, I, I, um, I don't know any male strippers,

01:15:52.020 but maybe, maybe you can, maybe you can introduce me. Well, I mean, the podcast is there. So,

01:15:56.000 I mean, I, you don't even have to dig them up, but yeah. So, um, as far as like the general

01:16:01.440 sexual strategy of human beings, like it, it's all over the place, right? You know, again, you

01:16:06.140 know, we were talking about this before at all, it all depends on who you are, what your

01:16:10.240 sexual market value is, what your age is, you know, the socioeconomic region. There's a lot

01:16:15.020 of things that like cultural beliefs, religious beliefs. Um, what do you think about the notion

01:16:19.980 that, um, men compete, women choose? Like there's a standby for you.

01:16:26.000 It's not quite right. And I, and I, and I know, you know, it's not quite right. Um, tell

01:16:30.980 us why. So, and we can talk about the kind of, are humans monogamous? Are they not that

01:16:36.880 kind of thing? Well, let's, let's put a pin in that. Cause that's interesting as well.

01:16:39.600 And you've actually, you've been almost a hundred percent correct on that in your book. There

01:16:44.500 were, there were, there were some inaccuracies, inaccuracies there, but I saw a video of yours

01:16:48.940 more recently where you summarize the human mating strategies. And it's basically exactly

01:16:53.140 what I would say. It's like, yes, we have, you know, strong monogamous tendencies, but

01:16:57.400 it tends to be serial monogamy, not lifetime monogamy. We're not really that type of species.

01:17:01.580 That's an update in that chapter. That's actually coming out. I was telling you about the

01:17:04.740 revisions. Yeah. Yeah. The sex at dawn stuff is a little out of date. Um, and it's also,

01:17:09.380 it was controversial at the time it came out, but you know, the, it tends, it tends to be serial

01:17:14.160 monogamy, uh, with affairs that seem to be about, that seem to be primarily driven by physical

01:17:20.460 attractiveness or genetic benefits. So there's this stereotype like men cheat physically, women

01:17:24.720 cheat emotionally. And it's like, well, kind of, I mean, women are more likely to cheat emotionally,

01:17:29.120 but men, but women also cheat physically at a very high rate. Um, so anyway, so it's a very

01:17:34.380 high rate. Uh, I would say that I, so I've, I've read probably every incident study on infidelity.

01:17:41.300 So, so I, I, I have a good gist, um, and it, the, the rates do vary, but if you're asking me for my

01:17:47.880 gist, having read everything, I would say that a low estimate for what percent of, it depends if we're

01:17:56.700 talking married, dating lifetime incidents this year. But most people, when they ask that it's like,

01:18:02.260 how many wives will cheat on their marriage, marriage partner at some point, right? I would

01:18:07.880 say that a low estimate would be one in 20 and a high estimate would be one in two, right? Those

01:18:14.460 are, that's the type of range that we're looking at. And I would say, I would say that most studies

01:18:18.500 one in 10 is about right, right? That that's especially for Western samples about one in 10

01:18:24.200 women. I would say at some point in their marriage, we'll have an affair for men, but that

01:18:28.760 would require that, that she's honest in basically admitting that she's a slut.

01:18:34.380 Well, on the other end of that, on the other end of that, I mean, I wouldn't use that word,

01:18:38.020 but on the other end of that, as you know,

01:18:39.680 Yeah, I know it's not the word that you would use, but that's, but that's the thinking that

01:18:42.920 she would go through in the admission that, you know, I cheated on my husband or boyfriend.

01:18:47.080 And that's why, and that's why we have to do, that's why we have to do more than just

01:18:49.660 serve it. So that's the thing is that you, you seem to come into this thinking that I'm just

01:18:52.960 Mr. Survey data, survey data. But I said from the start, I know that you're a scientist. Yeah.

01:18:57.020 Yeah. Yeah. Like I don't, like, it's not just, I mean, survey data, it can contribute to science,

01:19:01.320 but we have to look at the other thing. So what we, what do we see? Well, we see that

01:19:04.800 this is based on not just women's self-reporting infidelity, but also men. How often have you been

01:19:11.080 cheated on? Right. Have you been cheated on? Have you ever been cheated on that sort of thing? And

01:19:15.120 we see similar rates. It's like, you know, I don't think men always know the truth. You know,

01:19:19.260 they have a lot of, you're right. You're right. You're right. These are going to be,

01:19:22.440 and women are a lot better at hiding it than what men are, to be honest with you.

01:19:25.120 Well, that's interesting. I mean, maybe, maybe they are better at hiding it. It's hard to know,

01:19:30.040 but I would say that. And, you know, I have spoken to some scientists who would, who would agree with

01:19:33.880 you, who would say, look, women are women. They're better at hiding. Yeah, exactly. There's more to

01:19:41.300 lose. There's more social stigmas. They're more likely to lie. Yeah. I mean, there's a legitimate

01:19:46.500 case to be made. You know, I was just speaking to one of my colleagues about this and that, and that's

01:19:51.020 they said the same thing. But even if we take that, then we're going to be bumping up the numbers to

01:19:56.500 probably the high estimate. Um, for men, for men, the numbers are always higher. Uh, there's,

01:20:04.140 there's like one exception, but if you read all the studies, it's like women, how often have you been

01:20:08.660 cheated on men? How often have you cheated? It seems that men cheat more than women, but the, but I would

01:20:14.900 say that the sex difference isn't as large. And that makes sense from, from an evolutionary biology

01:20:19.600 perspective as well. It's like men have more to gain from affairs and less to lose. Um, but we were,

01:20:24.980 we were going to talk about something else. We're going to talk about, um, the hell we were on. We

01:20:29.060 were going to, uh, men compete, women choose. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that, that mate choice

01:20:34.980 model is definitely, it applies to most, most mammals. And we certainly have, we certainly have

01:20:41.880 vestiges of that, right? Like that's, that's definitely, that's definitely a part of the story,

01:20:47.780 but I know, or no, well, I think that, I think that, you know, I mean, so you said that you've

01:20:56.560 got a girlfriend, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's like, didn't she have to compete? Didn't you choose?

01:21:03.840 Right. It's not, it's not quite men compete, women choose. That's, that's, that's definitely

01:21:09.840 part of the story, but it's like men, especially men who bring something to the table. I would have to

01:21:15.160 compete against other men out there that she had options in dating at the time that she,

01:21:19.520 but she wasn't competing with any other women. Of course she was. Absolutely. Exactly. Exactly.

01:21:24.080 So what, so, so a better model, the reason I brought up the, the anecdote there, um, again,

01:21:28.120 not trying to just needlessly make things personal. It's just, but what I'm saying though,

01:21:31.520 is that, is that, is that men must compete on the sexual marketplace. Like we, we, like it's

01:21:36.840 incumbent on us to make something out of ourselves. Yes. Oh yes.

01:21:41.160 That competition amongst other men. Whereas, you know, I think that men generally speaking will

01:21:46.580 prioritize, my buddy Carl said this a while ago. He said that men prioritize availability. So

01:21:52.460 women that respond, you know, become available to him, you know, sort of thing. Whereas, you know,

01:21:59.780 women are basically choosing from men that are competing for their attention. And I think it's

01:22:06.140 generally true. Although yes, you know, women do compete for men, but I think generally speaking,

01:22:11.480 it's, it's men that are out there doing something, they're competing. That's why we go out and we buy

01:22:16.080 nice cars, you know, because we're, because we're competing. Like me and my brother all the time is

01:22:20.200 like, Oh, my house is bigger than yours. I'm like, yeah, whatever. Like what color is your McLaren,

01:22:23.540 bro? Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so this is interesting. We can get into it. And I'm happy to, I also

01:22:30.540 recognize that, I mean, I'm good to go for time. I can keep talking.

01:22:33.960 Yeah. I can go for another 30, 40 minutes if you want to do a full two hours. I mean,

01:22:37.280 this is a really interesting conversation. I think the guy's like this.

01:22:39.700 Yeah. No, no, no. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm happy to, I mean, all this is, this is all I think about

01:22:44.600 all day and it's. You should do more with your time, man. You're thinking about this too much.

01:22:50.100 Yeah. Yeah. My, my full, my full, if you would be horrified if you saw my day-to-day life, I'm not,

01:22:56.840 I'm not out here driving McLarens. I'm a, I'm sitting down and reading all day. But in any case,

01:23:02.220 it's a very boring life, but for most people, but I enjoy it. Okay. So men compete, women choose.

01:23:08.480 Yeah. That statement, men compete, true. Women choose, true, but we can't stop there because

01:23:17.640 women compete, men choose as well. This is going to be less true. This is going to be less true.

01:23:22.920 This is going to be less true for low mate value males, right? So obviously if you're a male and

01:23:29.780 you have, and you're not, and you're not towards the top of the competition, there's not going to

01:23:36.620 be a lot of women competing over you. You're basically going to be competing to get women's

01:23:40.200 attention constantly. So this isn't going to represent your experience, but you know, if you're

01:23:46.200 a man who's towards the top of the competitive space, um, it just, let's just say a high mate

01:23:52.840 value man, and you're interested in monogamy, which look, I mean, most men are frankly, I mean,

01:24:02.580 there's this stereotype of like, Oh, you know, um, what is it? Hogamous, Higamous men are polygynous,

01:24:07.800 Higamous, Hogamous women are monogamous. It's like, uh, kind of, but not quite. It's like men have more

01:24:12.260 multiple mating impulses probably, but not, but that's, that's not quite right. Most men are going,

01:24:18.260 even yourself, right? You're, you're, you're Mr. Plate Spinner and here you are with a girlfriend.

01:24:22.580 It's like men have, yeah, exactly. It's like men have a strong desire towards monogamy, uh, whether

01:24:29.080 they, whether they admit it or not, we see it come out in the behavior. And so it's a sexual strategy

01:24:33.380 that men have adapted from women, right? You know, watching women, you know, uh, choosing for multiple

01:24:39.240 men, because I mean, you know, I think guys get criticized for dating multiple women simultaneously

01:24:44.940 in a non-monogamous fashion with AKA plate spinning. But I think that women do it by nature. Like you

01:24:50.020 have to tell men to do it, right? Like the average guy out there. And I've had a lot of these dudes

01:24:55.080 calling in my show. It's like, you know, the average guy is just a dork. And the first girl

01:24:58.900 that touches his PP, you know, he wants to be the boyfriend, girlfriend, and that's it. And he's not

01:25:03.340 considering other options. He's not looking at red flags. He's not looking at anything. And, you know,

01:25:08.420 he's just looking to sort of like lock it down and be like, you know, can we be a couple sort of

01:25:11.920 thing? Whereas I think women are looking at options, you know, they're like until a high value guy,

01:25:21.560 you know, comes along where other men become invisible to her. And she says, yeah, you know,

01:25:25.560 this guy is what I want. Then that's the only time that she'll consider a monogamous long-term

01:25:31.660 relationship. Would you agree with that? Yeah. To an extent, to an extent, I think that,

01:25:37.920 I think that some of the things there, I might just be misunderstanding in terms of what you're,

01:25:42.560 what you're trying to say. So I don't want, I don't want to just, I don't want to, I don't want

01:25:45.800 to needlessly argue on a point where I think, like, I think that men do have stronger inclinations

01:25:51.340 towards multiple mating than women. Definitely.

01:25:53.920 Okay. Okay. So we agree. Yeah. So we agree. We agree. But in terms of, so that sex difference is

01:26:00.560 very well supported. And, and this is from behavioral data for anyone who's, you know, really picked up on

01:26:05.180 the survey data versus that's behavioral data, survey data, basically, however you measure,

01:26:09.680 however you measure it, men desire sexual variety more than women in terms of filtering options.

01:26:16.320 I think you're right that many men just don't have options, but in terms of the men compete,

01:26:21.240 women choose model. When once, once people are monogamous, right, which most people are doing,

01:26:26.820 most people, even, even the highest mate value males, a lot of them are just looking for monogamy.

01:26:33.820 What does that mean? It means that it's, it's a one-to-one pairing for a huge portion of the

01:26:40.580 market. Not all of them. There are men who are dating multiple women, obviously, and women who

01:26:44.020 are dating multiple men. Once there's a one-to-one pairing, it's like musical chairs, right? Women

01:26:50.220 have to compete, meaning that not everybody gets a seat and you have to fight for it. So,

01:26:56.160 and there's, you know, one, one, one seat per one, one seat per sitter. So it's like on that point,

01:27:02.440 you know, like something else that I learned from the red pill, you know, from the manosphere was that

01:27:08.120 women are willing to share, women would rather share a high value alpha than be straddled with

01:27:13.840 a faithful loser. What do you think of that soundbite? Yeah, that's something that they say a lot

01:27:18.160 and it's definitely true for some women, but we would see. Okay. I mean, it's the reason why a

01:27:25.920 woman will date a married guy that's successful and has a family, but won't date a guy that lives

01:27:30.040 in his mom's basement playing video games. Okay. So I'm going to, I'm going to,

01:27:36.960 I'm going to speak very carefully here. Cause I think more, I think more where I'm kind of over

01:27:46.260 my skis in terms of where the research is on this point. Here's what I say. The research does support

01:27:51.900 women would rather sleep with nobody than sleep with somebody who they don't find attractive,

01:28:02.460 respectable, et cetera. Oh yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. And so what does that manifest in,

01:28:08.460 right? It manifests in women competing very vigorously, right? For mates that they find

01:28:16.560 actually attractive, respectable, et cetera. And sometimes this will result in scenarios such as

01:28:23.020 the one you're describing where it's like, they would rather, as you say, share a super high

01:28:29.600 value guy than be saddled with, as you say, a loser. But it's not that women are, that's very

01:28:39.440 different from saying that. And this won't be true for all women, right? At all. And I would say most

01:28:44.920 women would, that's not the situation that they're in. Like most women, it would be the situation of

01:28:49.780 like, yeah, I could share like super high mate value, but at the end of the day, he's not going to

01:28:53.760 invest in me. He's not going to spend time with me. I would rather someone who's around my level,

01:28:58.160 right? A little higher, a little lower. That's what most people do in practice. That's what most

01:29:02.200 women do. But if it's between, if it's between loser and sharing high value, yeah, you're probably

01:29:09.300 right, but that's not the situation for most women. Yeah. So, so that's, so that, that would be kind

01:29:16.220 of my commentary on that point. But I would, but I would emphasize the fact that it's not the case

01:29:21.560 for most women and most women are not content to share, right? Like even like I was just seeing,

01:29:27.300 um, yeah, they're not, yeah, they're not happy about it, but they, but like there are some that

01:29:33.100 will just look the other way. Yeah. But then, but then here's the thing, mate, is that when we're

01:29:37.060 talking, we have to be, when we're talking about psychological sex differences, we have to be

01:29:40.600 careful that we're identifying the actual difference and not the results from that difference, because

01:29:44.700 there are plenty of men who would be happy and willing to share a high value women, but high

01:29:51.080 value women don't date down for short-term stuff. So they can't do it. Isn't that interesting that,

01:29:56.260 you know, when you look at history, there's, there's, there's historical records of guys like

01:30:00.920 Ishmael, the bloodthirsty, a Moroccan sultan who ran harem of, uh, thousands of women, you know,

01:30:07.580 multiple wives, tons of children, but there's no historical records of women running harems of men.

01:30:13.180 Yeah. That doesn't, that's, that's not like, I mean, there are cases, there are cases of that,

01:30:18.780 but I would be pointing to those cases as, as peculiarities rather than the general trend.

01:30:24.920 So that's my point is that like, so you said, um, so just to really drill down on where we're

01:30:30.440 disagreeing here, cause I, I think you understand completely. I just want to make sure that, that

01:30:34.540 the audience is tracking the difference here is, um, and I'm not saying that this is what you believe,

01:30:38.660 but you said women would rather share a high value man, right. Then be, be one-on-one with a loser.

01:30:46.300 It's like men would rather share a high value woman than like a very attractive supermodel type

01:30:54.440 than be saddled with a loser as well. But they don't have that option ever because high value women

01:31:01.800 don't date down for short-term affairs. So it's not really, so describing that it's like,

01:31:07.520 it's not the reality. It's not that I disagree with the reality of the statement. It's more that

01:31:11.960 the emphasis is misleading because it implies that you're saying something about women's psychology

01:31:16.680 when really we're saying something about men's psychology.

01:31:19.900 Let's, um, let's move on to something else that I've noticed, you know, as well, there, there,

01:31:24.100 there's a lot of, uh, podcasts out there, which I think the media has criticized and I think they

01:31:31.280 sum it up in the titles, you know, something along the lines of, you know, making bimbos look stupid.

01:31:36.500 Um, and there seems to be like this general notion that women today have an overinflated ego and

01:31:44.280 overinflated sense of entitlement and they don't understand, um, like the numbers, if that makes

01:31:51.820 sense. So I know that this isn't really going to deal with like scientific, um, you know,

01:31:56.740 research that you work on or anything that you lecture on, but do you see in what you've come

01:32:02.220 across and what you do that women don't have an accurate understanding of options on the sexual

01:32:09.060 marketplace? Like you'll see this, you know, for example, like you'll see a pregnant woman with

01:32:15.140 three children in tow from different fathers and her occupation is stay at home mom on Tinder

01:32:20.320 saying that she's looking for a guy over six foot tall with a six figure income, six inches in the

01:32:24.980 pants, six pack abs, you know, the six, sixes sort of stuff. What do you think of that? Is that

01:32:30.140 something that you can comment on as far as, you know, from your experience or, you know, with your

01:32:33.520 research? Yeah, of course. I mean, of course this is something, this is something that I could get

01:32:37.600 into. This is one of my other gripes with the red pill is that a lot of it is based on personal

01:32:43.780 experience, bro. And this one woman, I know this one anecdote, dah, dah, dah, dah. I'm not accusing you of

01:32:49.180 doing this here. I understand why you're, why you're bringing up these points because I've seen

01:32:52.880 hundreds of thousands of like podcast guests now where they've, there's clips all over the internet

01:32:59.400 now. I know, but I've also seen, I've also seen your criticisms of those is that there's, and, and I

01:33:04.480 think we'd agree on that. So I'm not sure if you're just playing devil's advocate right now, but this

01:33:07.880 idea that like they're, they're selecting a, a specific portion that they know they they're selecting a

01:33:14.980 subset of women who they know are going to say certain things. So that way they can ask Myron

01:33:20.700 about that on fresh and fit years ago. And he said, no, that's an accurate representation of the

01:33:24.960 women in Miami that are available to come in. I think, uh, you know what it reminds me of now?

01:33:31.720 I wouldn't sit down at a coffee shop with any one of those chicks, obviously.

01:33:36.260 I mean, here's the, here's the thing. Here's the thing. When guys, when guys tell me all women

01:33:41.440 are like that, right? I mean, it just tells me, it just tells me more about them than I agree with

01:33:53.260 you. I think the all women are like that. When women say, when women say all is all women are

01:33:59.000 like that. And no Walt is not all women are like that. So I think that the no Walt is something that

01:34:05.160 comes from, you know, like the white knighting from like the women, when they'll say not all women

01:34:09.820 are like that, but all, but all women have the capacity to behave that way. So, you know, when

01:34:14.960 you say like a woman can divorce, rape you, you know, if you get married, so don't get married,

01:34:18.800 then people will pile and be like, no, Walt, not all women are like that. There's some good women

01:34:23.060 out there. Oh, fine. Yeah. But all women have the capacity to do that. You see, like those are the

01:34:28.340 differences. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, well, okay. Okay. I mean, I guess, I guess to, to stay,

01:34:32.740 to stay just on the, on the selecting certain, sure, certain women for the podcast, it's like,

01:34:39.380 um, I, I really hate that podcast trend. I totally understand their business model. It's like,

01:34:44.960 we're going to bring in women. It's Jerry Springer. It's Jerry Springer. Yeah, exactly. And it's,

01:34:49.540 it's clownish. And then I see these just frankly, unintelligent dudes in the comments, just like

01:34:55.380 seeing the, they've never, they're the representatives for all women. Here's a big fat

01:35:02.620 red pill for you, Mack. And so, you know, I saw that there was a, um, a gal that went on to one

01:35:07.720 of these podcasts once and, you know, the standard super chats and the hate in the chat, or she's a

01:35:12.020 three Oh four and you know, whatever, like she's a hoe, like the standard stuff, right? She's a five.

01:35:16.520 She's not as hot as she thinks she is. Um, apparently the same guys that are, that are in the chat

01:35:22.420 slamming, you know, the gals will then go sign up for her only fans. And these gals have seen not

01:35:29.000 just, you know, the hate in the chat, but they've also increased their monthly revenue just by going

01:35:34.660 on these shows. This is why they keep going on them and taking all the flack. It seems that's

01:35:39.700 interesting. That makes sense from a business perspective, I suppose. Like, isn't that funny

01:35:43.020 that, that, that, that men behave that way where they'll, where they'll shit on a gal, but they'll also

01:35:47.420 open their wallet and punch in their credit card number to see the nudes of her.

01:35:50.780 Um, I think it goes back to the women are wicked when you're not wanted that, uh, I think it's,

01:35:55.160 I think that's a, that's a, that's a song lyric when you're not wanted. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like

01:36:00.340 a lot of these guys who are in the red pill, they're very bitter towards women because they've had

01:36:05.620 massive failures or rejections from women. And so they, they become resentful. And so they're in

01:36:11.240 the comment section. I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. But really they were popular with women,

01:36:15.420 right? If they were chads, they probably would have a much, a much more positive. If they were,

01:36:19.460 they would have a much more positive outlook towards the situation. I hate those podcasts.

01:36:23.280 I, I, I understand their business model. I think it's exploitative. Um, I, I also think

01:36:28.540 that it's, you know, the goal of their business model is to make individual women look silly

01:36:35.080 in order to reflect badly on all women in order to make viral clips that, you know, upset people

01:36:41.120 like me. So we hate watch it. Right. And they make money. Um, and then also, you know,

01:36:45.640 rile up, uh, you know, incel dorks online. Um, not saying all incels are, are, are dorks. I

01:36:51.940 apologize. I understand that some people are genuinely struggling, um, on the mating market

01:36:56.060 and that's, but you know, guys who are just, you know, bitter misogynists, not necessarily

01:37:00.060 just all incels. Um, that business model to me, you said it, it's like Jerry Springer, but kind of

01:37:07.800 for me, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's even trashier because they're trying to push a

01:37:11.340 political narrative that I view as untrue. Yeah. So, so in terms of, uh, let's talk about

01:37:17.440 the, no, uh, let's talk about, let's talk about the women's preferences thing. Uh, cause that

01:37:22.460 was interesting. Um, and we kind of skipped over it. Uh, you mentioned how, um, individual

01:37:27.740 women will exhibit standards that are unrealistic. Yeah. So they'll have X. So, you know, it seems

01:37:33.660 like you can have these women that are, that have mutilated their bodies with tattoos, piercings,

01:37:38.780 uh, like they've turned themselves into something that is like generally not conventionally attractive

01:37:44.500 to most guys. So you have to use, I look, I'm covered in tattoos and piercings and you're,

01:37:48.240 yeah, I know, but you're a dude though. I think it's different with men. Like I think that,

01:37:51.180 that, you know, if you're a man, then tattooing yourself is a masculine pursuit. It's a masculine

01:37:56.020 trait. And I think it's only recently that women have started to adopt that behavior. I'm not saying

01:38:00.920 that to disparage. Yeah. Well, we can talk about, we can talk about the signaling benefits of

01:38:05.200 tattoos because that's interesting, but let's, um, but let's focus in on the point is that you're

01:38:09.700 saying that women who are, they're women who are basically lower value. They've shared their body

01:38:16.080 with loads and loads of men and they're holding out to be pure and looking for a guy to look past

01:38:22.360 her bad choices and the results that she's got out of life and to basically invite her into

01:38:28.040 their life. And I mean, like you notice when you read my book, I obviously have a chapter on red

01:38:33.660 flags that I think men should be attentive to when it comes to inviting women into their life on a

01:38:37.520 longer term basis. And most of these women have more red flags than a Chinese communist parade,

01:38:42.240 right? Like they're just a walking nightmare, uh, waiting to ruin a dude's life. Um, so I think that

01:38:48.300 the entitlement is real. I think that they don't have an accurate assessment of their actual,

01:38:54.240 uh, mate value on the sexual marketplace. They also have a expectation as well. It seems that

01:38:59.820 there's a lot of like, there's some geeks out there that created this website. I think it's

01:39:04.140 called, I got standards, bro. I don't know if you've seen it. Oh, is it, is it like the,

01:39:08.300 is it the standards calculator? I think it's called the female, the female delusion calculator.

01:39:14.260 Yeah. You put in money, you put in all the things that you're looking for. And then it shows you,

01:39:18.960 Oh, it's actually 0.01%. Yeah. And then it collects the demographic data and it spits out a number like,

01:39:23.920 you know, population. So there's not a lot of guys out there. And when we'll go, that's okay,

01:39:27.420 I'll just wait. Right. Like, what do you think of that notion with the sexes? Cause aren't men and

01:39:31.800 women better together than they are apart? Like this, like this environment that we're in right

01:39:37.000 now, when it comes with current mating strategies is very, very difficult. I think it's harder than

01:39:40.660 any other time in history from being honest. Right. So some women, yeah, we could talk about that as

01:39:45.140 well. God, so much to get into, but I will say that look, some women it's true are going to have

01:39:51.020 unrealistic standards and these shows are going to illustrate those women, right? Shine a light on

01:39:55.900 them. But I would encourage you to look at the comments and see how unrealistic the standards

01:40:01.560 are of the followers of these shows. Right. They're mostly men, but I mean, you don't know who

01:40:06.280 they are. These men, no, these men are like, Oh, I'm holding out for, you know, a virgin trad wife

01:40:12.620 who's beautiful and fit and young and all this kind of stuff. These guys just talk though,

01:40:17.360 Mac. And it's like, talk like, who are they? Show me your face. That's what I'm saying is that

01:40:22.300 that's the male version of the same phenomenon. It's like, and you see the same, I see the same

01:40:26.960 thing in the comments. Like, um, like, Oh, I, you know, I'm an alpha, I'm a high value male,

01:40:32.340 dah, dah, dah, dah. And it's like, you sound exactly the same, bro. It's like, your, your standards

01:40:37.160 are so high, but you can't, you don't, you bring nothing to the table as a male. You can't afford to

01:40:41.740 have those standards. So I find it, if you're a top shelf man, like if you're in the top 1%,

01:40:46.560 you're not watching shows like that. You've, I mean, you're doing something different in your

01:40:49.620 life. No. Yeah, no, I agree. I completely agree. So I would say that yes, some people have to have

01:40:57.800 two high standards on the mating market, but I wouldn't make it a gendered thing because it's

01:41:02.100 like, I see men who are doing the same thing. I would also, I would also, we talked earlier about

01:41:05.660 men prioritizing availability. Don't they do that? Yeah. So, so women generally, you're right that women

01:41:11.240 generally are pickier than men, but there are a lot of men who are doing the exact same behavior that

01:41:15.300 you're talking about. And I'm not saying that as like a, Oh, look at the anecdote to prove the

01:41:19.120 rule. I'm saying that at a general level, especially in these environments, it's mostly

01:41:23.560 so let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it though at a more, uh, let's look at

01:41:28.700 this from a signaling perspective, right? Sometimes when people are struggling on the mating market,

01:41:35.300 they pretend that it's because their standards are so high and they're waiting, but in reality,

01:41:40.820 they've got nobody. Right. So a woman might say, Oh, I only date guys over six feet and it's like,

01:41:46.700 okay, well, where are the five 11 guys waiting to date you? You're saying that because you're

01:41:51.940 trying to distract from the fact that you don't have any options. So you're pretending that standards

01:41:56.580 are so high. Then on the other end, just stop there for sex. On the other end, we see the same

01:42:00.700 thing. Just stop there for sex. So isn't that, isn't that when, you know, when like the red pill or the

01:42:05.900 man of swamp says, watch what women do. Don't listen to what they say. Isn't that, I've been

01:42:10.400 saying that the whole show I've been saying ever since you brought up the server again with the

01:42:14.880 survey data. It's like, I'm saying, I'm saying that a lot of times we have to look at behaviors,

01:42:19.440 behavioral data, right? Actual things like that. Not just what people say. Okay. So you're all about

01:42:24.320 watching the behavior then. Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. A lot of times the survey data is

01:42:29.420 informative because sometimes it reflects genuine psychology, but yeah, I mean, yeah, you need, so,

01:42:33.900 so, but what I'm saying is that there's a benefit to saying that you have high standards

01:42:39.580 because one, it signals, it's a positive signal of mate value, right? It's implying, it's like,

01:42:44.880 oh, look at me. Like I can actually make choices here. So it's creating the illusion that you have

01:42:49.280 high mate value, whether that's effective or not in specific cases, hard to know. But you know,

01:42:53.540 like these, like guys like Myron Gaines being like on, on, on fresh and fit saying, oh, she needs to be,

01:42:59.760 you know, she needs to be feminine. She needs to be beautiful. She needs to be

01:43:03.660 subservient, all this kind of stuff. And he's saying, he's setting this like incredibly high bar

01:43:08.040 for what he wants in a relationship. He's acting like he's very picky. And it's like,

01:43:13.620 I mean, I don't know about his specific case, but for a lot of men, they say the same kind of things.

01:43:20.080 And it's to mask the fact that no woman wants them. And the same thing on the other side with

01:43:25.380 women saying, oh, I, I only date guys over six feet. It's like, okay, well, there are no guys who

01:43:29.680 are five 11 who are trying to date you. So you're just hiding the fact that you don't

01:43:33.580 necessarily have options by pretending that you have very high standards. If a guy who was five,

01:43:38.620 nine came up to you and he was handsome and funny, and you got along, you wouldn't care whether he

01:43:42.860 was six foot or not. So it's just, it's just the, it's just the illusion. And there's a couple

01:43:46.200 signaling benefits. One is that it makes you seem higher mate value too, is that it, you know,

01:43:50.700 it's, it's, it signals that maybe your problems are actually the result of, of, you know,

01:43:54.520 your standards as opposed to as opposed to your lack of opportunity. So that's what I'd say on

01:43:59.540 that point is that it's not really a gendered thing. We see it in both sexes and you have to

01:44:03.000 think of it from a signaling perspective. Let me ask you a question about something that you stated in

01:44:07.140 that podcast that we were chatting about when we opened. You said that you, I mean, the,

01:44:15.180 the clip was titled red pill advice is garbage. And I think that the criticism that you had was

01:44:23.300 that, that, that men in their twenties are advised not to date. And you thought that that was because

01:44:31.020 the red pill guys were disqualifying men from the sexual marketplace so they could have access to the

01:44:37.840 women. Can you talk about that a little bit? Cause I wasn't totally clear on that.

01:44:41.140 Yeah. So this is actually, this is something that I see actually. So oftentimes we talk about the watch

01:44:48.780 what they say, not what they do. Yeah. Oftentimes when I'm listening to people speak, I'm thinking

01:44:54.580 of the signaling benefits to the speaker rather than the contents of their speech.

01:44:58.780 Where did you hear that by the way? Like, who did you hear say that?

01:45:04.580 Well, it comes from, I don't know if you remember.

01:45:09.520 I think Jeffrey Miller is the person who really influenced me on that in terms of

01:45:14.440 Jeffrey Miller is in your camp, isn't he? He's one of the Evo site guys.

01:45:18.940 Yes.

01:45:21.380 What's his handle? Primal poly.

01:45:23.420 Primal poly. Yeah. Yeah. No, I've had him on my podcast, but I think he was,

01:45:26.240 it's, I think you're asking where, why I started getting interested in signaling theory.

01:45:31.460 No, no. I was talking about where you heard, like heard the advice that these, um,

01:45:37.220 manoswamp guys are telling guys in their twenties not to date. And you think it's because you want them

01:45:41.900 to disqualify men from the sexual marketplace. So they have access to these women. If I understood

01:45:47.620 it correctly. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You're correct. So I see.

01:45:50.420 I have said, I have said that guys in their twenties should not get into a long-term relationship,

01:45:55.780 but should date.

01:45:57.440 Yeah. Yeah. You've said that. Yeah. Yeah. So, so guys like, um, I believe his name is

01:46:01.500 Jay Waller or Justin Waller. Justin Waller. Okay. Yeah. So, so he has said, for example,

01:46:07.820 don't date in your twenties, that kind of thing. Well, that's stupid advice.

01:46:11.880 Yeah. I, I, I would agree. Then your thing on don't get into a long-term relationship in your

01:46:16.480 twenties. I would also disagree with that. I would, I would, I would build on that and say,

01:46:20.960 don't jump into a long-term relationship in your twenties, right? Like there's, there's

01:46:25.600 vetting that needs to be done. There's groundwork you need to set for your life. And I think that

01:46:29.020 guys can wait until later on in their lives. You know, if they're going to have an LTR or raise

01:46:34.020 a family or have children, they don't have the same timeline that women have. Right.

01:46:37.900 Yeah. You've also said though that, yeah, they don't, they don't, but, but, and this is another

01:46:42.900 area of disagreement with us is that I've heard you say in a couple of tick talks that you believe

01:46:47.780 that men peak in their late thirties. Yeah. I would say that there are a lot of guys that I

01:46:52.720 know that, that have reached their, uh, sexual market peak 37, 38, 39, 40. I mean, I know a guy

01:47:00.240 that's 42. That's just, he's insane. Like he's got really good genetics. He's loaded. He doesn't

01:47:05.340 want to settle down. He's got lots of women in his life. When do you think the average guy can expect

01:47:10.220 to be peak mate value? Well, I mean like the average, the average guy never peaks, you know,

01:47:14.740 if we're being honest, you know, the average guy just kind of like sleepwalks through life

01:47:18.720 and a lonely misery of, of very average women that don't really compliment their life. Like

01:47:24.220 that is the average guy's life. It's, it's, it's not good. Um, but when do you think, when

01:47:28.640 you, or what age do you think the average guy is going to have the most options? Because

01:47:32.520 I think we, I think if the average guy does, does the work on himself, uh, chase his excellence

01:47:38.780 becomes competent is captivating. Um, is has like, I know that you get this because you're

01:47:47.200 a boxer and you've competed in an arena. I have a lot of respect for any man that will

01:47:51.060 put his chin on the line, um, and stare down another man in a fight, because I think that's

01:47:56.480 an important skill and a, and a rite of passage for, for a lot of guys. So I think guys should

01:48:00.860 be doing stuff like this to build, build the foundation and build the bricks of what a man

01:48:08.100 truly is, right? Like what a good man is and what, uh, um, you know, Jack Donovan talks about

01:48:13.580 this a lot in his books, you know, the way of men and becoming a barbarian, you know, where

01:48:16.760 you have good men and men that are good at being men. And that's my gripe with a manno swamp is I

01:48:21.060 look at it and I see there's not a lot of good men and there's not a lot of men that are good at

01:48:24.920 being men in that space, which is why I don't associate with, with it anymore. But I think that guys

01:48:30.840 if they do the work on themselves, mid thirties, late thirties is entirely plausible for you to be

01:48:35.880 at your peak. Um, whereas with women, they can look very, very attractive in, you know,

01:48:42.560 their late thirties, even forties. I mean, there's even 50 or women out there. They're very attractive,

01:48:46.200 but they're not as hot as their 23 year old self. And when you survey men, and I know that you've

01:48:51.820 done the research on this area of at least Reddit most, most, in fact, all men, when you survey them

01:48:57.320 on a balance of probabilities, we'll select about 22, 23 as the most beautiful woman.

01:49:02.420 And, you know, if you show them 20 to all the way to 70, generally speaking, it's early twenties,

01:49:06.400 they tend to pick as the most beautiful. So men and women do have different timelines is what I

01:49:10.760 believe, but you don't think that's true. You think that men peak differently?

01:49:14.580 Oh, I know we, we, we agree on some of the things you said there. I'll note on the boxing. It's kind

01:49:18.640 of funny. We, we, we disagree on so many things that I was, I was on the phone to my girlfriend last

01:49:22.480 night. And I was just telling her, I was like, Oh, this kind of, you know, I have to go on a

01:49:26.420 podcast tomorrow where I disagree with the guy on a lot of things. It's kind of reminding me of

01:49:29.140 boxing a little bit. I miss boxing every day, every single day. I've had, I've had one fight

01:49:34.180 and I loved it. I mean, I would do it again, but I've been training for like three and a half,

01:49:37.760 four years. So I get it. Right. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. That's cool. Good for you. Yeah. No,

01:49:42.040 I used to, I used to compete, compete, um, all through that's my, that's my childhood. When I think

01:49:46.600 of my childhood, I just think about fighting, um, the competitive fighting was so fun. I mean,

01:49:50.240 it probably took, it took away a few brain cells, um, but worth, worth every single one,

01:49:54.860 at least so far. And, uh, you know, and it gears you up for life so well, because the truth is that

01:49:59.320 people say like, Oh, you know, you're scared, you're scared to talk to a red pill guy. You're

01:50:02.900 scared to talk to a red pill guy. I'm like, he's not going to hit me, you know, like, I'm just gonna,

01:50:07.160 I'm going to get on the phone with rich and we're going to have some disagreements and, you know,

01:50:11.020 maybe it's going to get a little tense at some points, but he's not going to smack me in the face,

01:50:14.640 you know, and I've been smacked in the face probably 2000 times, uh, throughout, throughout my life.

01:50:19.380 So I'm, so I'm not, so I'm not worried about it. Um, but in any case,

01:50:23.100 like what, what do you think that meant? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So for me, again,

01:50:29.680 it's about looking at behavior, right? So I agree with you that for some men, especially if they're,

01:50:36.380 you know, career maxing as, as an Intel might say, um, you know, maybe, maybe they do. Yeah.

01:50:42.120 Maybe they do peak later, but here's just the cold reality of it. And it's not, and I think a lot of,

01:50:47.500 a lot of these guys in the red pill space, they're in their late twenties, they're in their

01:50:51.740 early thirties. Right. And they haven't, you know, they haven't really succeeded with women yet.

01:50:57.780 And so they're telling themselves this story. I'm not saying you're doing this. You're obviously,

01:51:01.480 you know, at a different stage in life, but they're telling this themselves the story. Oh,

01:51:05.160 the best days are yet to come. The best days are yet to come. And it's like, mate,

01:51:09.480 the best days already passed you by. Like if you look at, if you look at when women peak in terms of

01:51:15.760 their, in terms of you would say their sexual market value, I would say mate value. I would

01:51:20.500 say that a variety of evidence converges on it being, um, in their twenties, at least in terms of

01:51:25.460 when men, and, and this is when men not going off of what people say, it's just, when do men compete

01:51:30.920 most intensely over mates? Right. And it's over that group of mates. It's women in their twenties,

01:51:36.080 right. I'm not saying that this is how I want the world to be right. I'm just saying from a cold,

01:51:40.920 apathetic reading of the data, this is, this is when female mate value or women's mate value seems

01:51:45.720 to peak in our species. Who do these women select? These are the women with the most selective power.

01:51:54.020 They can choose whoever they want to be with. Who do they select? They select other men in their twenties

01:52:00.040 when they're going on a dating app. They're most of them are filtering out men over 30.

01:52:06.080 Let alone men in their late thirties. Okay. That's true. But they do get to a point at some

01:52:11.380 point where they realize that a lot of these younger guys aren't doing it for them. And then

01:52:16.860 they start to expand that, that, that, uh, reach maybe like, you know, instead of three years older,

01:52:22.120 it goes to five years older, maybe seven years older, maybe 10 years older. Yeah. But it's not

01:52:26.460 entirely uncommon for women in their twenties to date, you know, older guys. Right. Yeah. No,

01:52:31.560 no, no. Older is normal. Older is older, but Hey, cope aside. Right. You know, red pill guys coping.

01:52:38.360 I mean, we're talking about uncomfortable truths, right? Uncomfortable truth is that men also peak

01:52:43.240 relatively young, right? In terms of when are men most physically attractive. And you talk a lot

01:52:47.660 about genuine desire, right? A lot of these red pill guys talk about genuine desire. It's like

01:52:51.940 genuine desire as a man, you're going to be much more likely to get that when you're in your twenties,

01:52:58.780 when you're actually as physically attractive as you get. So this is, this is, I don't know,

01:53:03.620 man. I've had, you know, I've had genuine burden and desire, you know, throughout my life many times

01:53:07.520 and it's, Oh, I'm sure you have. I'm sure you have. We're talking about, we're talking about

01:53:11.520 confusing. We're talking about the average. Yeah. We're talking, we're not talking about you.

01:53:15.520 We're talking about the average guy. Yeah. Yeah. So like I would completely agree that I was better

01:53:21.220 looking and you know, like money didn't like, you know, I've said this before too. So maybe you could

01:53:26.560 comment on this. Women have a lot more patience for a hot guy in his twenties that has a plan versus

01:53:33.200 a guy that's 40. That might be good looking, but has nothing to show for himself and still has a

01:53:37.780 plan. You see what I'm saying? Yeah, that's true. That's true. I mean, we're, we're women have the

01:53:41.220 expectation that men do something of some significance with their life as they sort of move through it.

01:53:47.320 Yes. I agree with that. I guess I just want to really drill down on this point.

01:53:50.980 Like the women with the most, so a lot of red pill guys say, Oh, men peak in their thirties,

01:53:56.660 men peak in their late thirties. Right. I'm not saying that you say this, but you know,

01:54:00.420 if you go on fresh and fit, they're like, yeah, it just keeps getting better and better for men

01:54:03.180 throughout their thirties. And it's like, all right, let's go to the work. But for most guys,

01:54:06.620 no. Yeah. It's like, let's go to the data, right? Women who are, you know, 23, 24, 25,

01:54:12.720 who can choose to date whoever they want. It's like, who do they choose to date? They choose to date men

01:54:18.700 who are 25, 26, 27, right? 30 is pushing it. They'll do it. 30 is pushing it. Let's say,

01:54:24.700 even as you say, 10 year age gap, right? That was, that was the biggest age gap that you mentioned

01:54:28.020 in terms of dating app filters. That would be an uncommonly, just so you know, from a data

01:54:32.280 perspective, most, most young women are not trying to date men 10 years older than them. Some will,

01:54:37.100 I mean, I know some will, um, especially if, you know, a man brings a lot to the table,

01:54:40.900 but for the most part, it's like even 10 years, like that's 23 to 33, right? That's not 38,

01:54:49.100 right? So this cope, this fantasy, this, this, this story that red pill guys who haven't succeeded

01:54:54.460 with women the way they expect to the story, they keep chattering onto themselves. They're like,

01:54:58.880 oh, the promised land is coming. You know, when I get older, when I get older,

01:55:02.480 like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. But like, the truth is, is that the best looking, the best looking young,

01:55:08.860 the best looking young women, the best looking young women are interested in the best looking

01:55:14.700 young men. That's the primary, that's the primary place of mating competition. And, you know,

01:55:19.660 these, I'm going to give you the button here, which is like, which is like the outlier, which

01:55:24.300 is what we're talking about. You know, when we're saying that men peak later, um, you mentioned just

01:55:29.560 that might be what you're saying. That's not what that might be what you're saying. That's not

01:55:32.480 hear me out though. You mentioned, uh, Justin Waller. So I know who he is, obviously. Um,

01:55:38.300 I don't know what his age is. I think he's in his late thirties. Let's call him 38.

01:55:42.020 You know, when he was younger, he was kind of fat and dorky and, you know, he did something with

01:55:47.860 his life, got some style going, um, you know, built a, uh, a business, made some money, improved

01:55:53.780 his network, you know, surround himself with higher value guys. Um, arguably he is of a higher sexual

01:56:00.060 market value at his current age today than what he would have been at 23. So I think the argument

01:56:05.160 that's, that's, that's made there is guys don't sweat it. You're not getting the results

01:56:10.060 that you want right now. I know you want a 10. I got it. You know, you've got a lot of

01:56:13.660 testosterone and you want to chase gals, but work on yourself, invest in yourself. Like

01:56:18.160 that's the messaging that I try to convey anyway. Right. It's like, look, you may not be getting

01:56:22.880 what you want right now, but I'm not saying the best is yet to come. The best is yet to come.

01:56:26.900 If you do the fucking work, you know, the best is yet to come. If you fix your deficiencies,

01:56:30.820 if you become captivating, if you develop a strong network, you know, if you do all the

01:56:34.140 things that I tell guys, you know, to do in their lives, then they can still get what

01:56:39.240 their, uh, hopes, dreams, and wants are at 38. Right. Whereas women, they don't have that

01:56:45.340 same timeline. They don't have that same luxury. Right. I think that women need to prioritize,

01:56:48.980 um, if they're serious about having a family and raising children and that sort of stuff and

01:56:54.320 getting a solid guy in their life at a much younger age. I think it's important for them to

01:56:57.920 contemplate that. So I think the conversations that you have with a son versus a daughter are

01:57:02.680 very different. I think the conversation you have as a son with his son, make something out

01:57:06.160 of yourself, chase excellence, do the work, you know, increase your value to as high as you can

01:57:10.820 possibly make it. So you are spoiled for choice as a man and you can get what you want out of this

01:57:15.000 life and daughter preserve your value. Don't run around and share your body with a bunch of guys.

01:57:19.580 Don't go and tattoo it up. Don't go and dye your hair purple and do stupid things with your life.

01:57:24.320 Preserve your value and preserve your purity. Cause that's what men, you know,

01:57:27.100 of high value are looking for. Um, you know, I had this conversation once where it's like,

01:57:31.520 you know, what should I be doing as a woman? You know, I'd be telling, you know,

01:57:34.620 I'd be telling my daughter, go and get a job selling jets, high end, uh, cars selling yachts,

01:57:42.580 and you will be exposed to very successful men. Date one of them, you know, and get yourself sorted

01:57:49.200 out that way. That would be a great way. I think, you know, for a woman to sort of get what she wants

01:57:53.880 out of her life instead of climbing the corporate ladder and chasing degrees because

01:57:57.240 in the West family law protects women. Yeah. But surely, surely you understand that it's not all

01:58:03.140 just mating. Like we can talk about, you know, mating goals and things like that, but surely,

01:58:07.440 you know, that, I mean, I, I, I, I just know that, you know, this, that like, like in the same way that

01:58:12.680 men have dreams for themselves and dreams for what they want to achieve in life. Uh, women have those

01:58:18.160 dreams as well. Yeah. I'm not sure what happened to my video. I'm like, Oh, you know what? I think my

01:58:22.420 camera overheated. Can you still hear me? Yeah, I can still hear you. I've never had my camera go

01:58:27.100 this long that it overheated. Oh my God. I'm sorry. Let me see if I can switch over here. Um,

01:58:32.820 you know what? We're almost at the two hour mark and I wanted to wrap it up and I know that we can

01:58:38.680 probably go on for three or four hours. So maybe we'll do a part two. Um, this might be my cue to

01:58:45.460 sort of wrap it up. Um, so there's a whole bunch more we could talk about Mac and I really appreciate

01:58:51.200 you joining me. I think I should, uh, check you out and at least hear your perspective on these

01:58:55.780 things. You got a tick tock. Where would you want to sell people? Sorry, send people to, to follow

01:59:00.540 your, uh, content and the stuff that you're building. Yeah. I wish I had something to sell.

01:59:04.740 I really don't. Um, yeah. So just Google me. Um, everything's free. And then also keep in mind,

01:59:09.420 it's like, I know that, I know that a lot of you guys are hearing what I'm saying and thinking that

01:59:12.940 I'm just coming from in some, some insane, I know because I've, I've heard from you red pill guys

01:59:17.040 that you think that I'm like just incredibly biased. I promise you, I know it's tough to believe,

01:59:22.820 but I genuinely just look at the data and it's like, okay, what's the mainstream take on this

01:59:29.640 from a scientific perspective, the most plausible outcome, right? Not what I want to be true. I've

01:59:34.260 said plenty of uncomfortable truths today, just what seems most likely to be true. And that, and that

01:59:39.680 runs through all of my work and you can see that for yourself. Closing thought. You still think I'm a

01:59:45.760 sexist? I think that, I think that a lot of the things you say are, um, but I, I don't know you

01:59:51.740 in my personal life and I wouldn't, I would not go that far. Cool. All right, man. Um, really

01:59:56.320 appreciate you coming on and, uh, diving into this conversation. It's been a slice and, uh, yeah,

02:00:01.660 maybe we'll do it again. Um, we'll talk briefly after I end the show off the air, but thanks for

02:00:06.780 watching guys, you know, do the thing like, and comment below and all that good stuff. And we'll see you

02:00:11.220 guys very soon. Peace out.

Playing to Win - October 12, 2023

091 - Macken Murphy - Data Driven Dating Advice

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