Radio 3Fourteen - 3D Printed Guns_ PC Hacktivism _ Cultural Terrorism

00:00:00.000 Thank you for listening.

00:00:30.000 This is Radio 314 on the Red Ice Radio Network.

00:01:00.000 We'll talk all about it, including his battle with the government.

00:01:05.960 Cody is the founder director of Defense Distributed, a non-profit organization that develops and publishes open-source gun designs, so-called WikiWeapons, suitable for 3D printing.

00:01:18.020 He's been called one of America's 30 influential pro-gun rights advocates and one of the 15 most dangerous people in the world.

00:01:25.960 Defense Distributed gained international notoriety in 2013 when it published plans online for the Liberator, a functioning pistol that could be reproduced with a 3D printer.

00:01:36.340 You can see this gun in action and more on Cody's YouTube channel, Defense Distributed.

00:01:41.720 But Cody is interested in much more than guns, with a philosophical and inquisitive mind.

00:01:46.560 Not only does he share some of his political motivations, but I ask him about censorship, PC hacktivists, modernity, liberalism, culture, the alt-right, and much more.

00:01:56.360 I know you'll enjoy this next hour.

00:01:58.080 Cody Wilson, coming up.

00:01:59.200 Welcome, Cody.

00:02:00.580 Thanks for being here.

00:02:01.300 It's a pleasure to have you.

00:02:02.800 Hey, Lana.

00:02:03.320 Thanks for the invitation.

00:02:04.520 Well, when I told my listeners that you'd be coming on the show, they asked me to thank you for promoting solutions to our centralized system of control, which we need so badly.

00:02:12.120 So thank you for everything you're doing.

00:02:14.760 You're welcome.

00:02:15.620 Although, don't call it solutions, right?

00:02:17.440 Because then we're just playing the same game.

00:02:19.460 I'm just interested in the dissolution of these systems.

00:02:24.620 Well, since you grew up in Texas, I'm curious, were you raised Christian?

00:02:27.220 Yes, I was raised Christian.

00:02:29.580 I was raised in the conservative Christian South in the United States.

00:02:34.600 So that's the entire framing of my early experience.

00:02:39.700 And my father, in fact, is a Baptist minister.

00:02:44.260 Oh, wow.

00:02:45.020 So I'm a little bit more than raised Christian.

00:02:48.020 In fact, I'm quite exposed to the work of G.K. Chesterton and N.T. Wright, who is second only to Paul in my father's estimation.

00:02:58.660 And I think I'm quite conversant with modernist Christian theology, but also a sincere strand of traditionalist understanding of Christian theology.

00:03:11.600 So, yeah, I was raised Christian.

00:03:13.860 Now I've diverted this again to a different direction about the theology properly.

00:03:17.340 But culturally, yes, I've been raised Christian.

00:03:18.940 And I'm most comfortable still when I'm around Christian people and attitudes.

00:03:25.240 So do you consider yourself a libertarian or anarchist?

00:03:28.860 I know there's many different types of both these days.

00:03:32.860 Libertarian.

00:03:33.740 I mean, yeah, dispositionally, I consider myself a libertarian.

00:03:36.720 I was just invited to speak at a libertarian party conference, and this is an easy criticism to make.

00:03:43.580 But, I mean, the point that there's a libertarian party is proof that, you know, the movement has died on the vine.

00:03:51.900 I believe that, like, politics like anarchism are more useful than talking about libertarianism as an ethics or as a set of political principles.

00:04:02.160 I mean, a more complete thought system is something like anarchism.

00:04:07.040 So I tend to describe myself more as an anarchist than anything else.

00:04:11.140 Well, it's funny, too, because I noticed this new breed of libertarians.

00:04:14.700 They're basically like liberals now.

00:04:16.500 They're like, well, actually, maybe hate speech laws aren't such a bad thing.

00:04:20.900 Really?

00:04:21.380 Well, you know, I've noticed a tendency like this, too. 0.99

00:04:23.660 I mean, thankfully, I'm too busy to just participate in university discourse for the rest of my fucking life. 0.54

00:04:29.620 But, yeah, I've noticed that, like, a leftist anarchist critique has slowly kind of sauntered itself into discussions of privilege, 0.95

00:04:41.820 mostly, I think, as a way of being a kind of entree to a class of liberal that normally isn't exposed to anti-state thought.

00:04:49.720 And while this might be a short-term intelligent decision, I think long-term it just simply further obscures the actual potency of that discourse

00:05:01.660 and then lapses libertarian thought into just, you know, the culture wars and this kind of pathetic university discourse about, you know, relativistic individual privilege.

00:05:12.880 Oh, yeah. 0.94

00:05:13.240 It's getting ugly.

00:05:13.720 Ugly.

00:05:14.840 Well, most people, I hope, know you as the young inventor of the world's first 3D printable gun, and I think it's great.

00:05:20.360 But tell us what transpired in your life to lead up to that.

00:05:25.120 Wow.

00:05:25.760 Well, okay.

00:05:28.600 So, I mean, I was in law school, and that's the first big mark against me, probably.

00:05:36.240 You know, you'll have to forgive me.

00:05:38.140 We were all young ones.

00:05:40.060 That's right.

00:05:40.460 I, it's so hard to say, but, I mean, I've, antecedents like WikiLeaks, I mean, WikiLeaks was the most important thing in my thinking at that time.

00:05:51.360 I mean, Ben Dineo, my co-founder, and I were absolutely fascinated by CableGate and what Assange had done.

00:05:56.860 Not so much in, like, his thinking, but in how he had negated this entire kind of whitewashed system, this agreed-upon consensus about how diplomacy, formal diplomacy works, with this disavowal of certain, like, public conversations and knowledge.

00:06:14.300 And he had just kind of thrown and opened all that stuff up and thrown it into the commons.

00:06:19.800 And I'm only just appraising it here just for what it was.

00:06:22.320 I mean, I don't even mean to attach any other greater significance ethically to it or morally.

00:06:27.060 Just how one man was able to negate this entire system, which had pretty much operated since the, I don't know, conception of the modern, like, Westphalian state system.

00:06:36.720 I mean, wow.

00:06:37.600 Look what the internet was allowing this guy to do.

00:06:39.320 And then Bitcoin, he was breaking the blockade with Bitcoin.

00:06:43.840 So that was the hottest stuff in the political to me since 2009, 2010.

00:06:52.200 Into that environment, into that kind of garden of thought, we just stumbled one day on a phone call onto, you know, what is WikiLeaks for guns?

00:07:04.160 I mean, what does that look like?

00:07:05.700 Does the internet allow not just the transmission of cables and communication, but also, you know, the data, the constitutive data for creating articles?

00:07:16.600 And that's how we discovered the whole conversation that had already been happening for many years about 3D printing and digital fabrication.

00:07:22.940 So we discovered 3D printing via a conversation about WikiLeaks for guns.

00:07:27.860 And here we are.

00:07:29.200 Wow.

00:07:29.480 Well, have you had any visits by the ATF or government agents trying to intimidate you from your pursuits?

00:07:35.700 You know, intimidation, at least in my experience, has always worked a bit indirectly.

00:07:42.620 So when people have some authority or ability to make decisions about you, they'll often make those decisions and frustrate your plans.

00:07:50.600 But no, no one's ever come and, like, leaned on me directly to my face.

00:07:55.460 It took me about six months to get a federal firearms license.

00:08:00.160 That's about double the norm.

00:08:03.540 And then, you know, from time to time, especially during 2013, we were made aware that we were being surveilled.

00:08:09.440 But these are all passive forms of surveillance and intimidation and nothing that would really, like, dissuade us from doing what we did.

00:08:16.360 And really, to date, I mean, the only active frustrations I've had from the government are—I mean, this is a big one.

00:08:21.500 I'm making it seem trivial now.

00:08:22.780 But the State Department, their Bureau of Political Military Affairs interfered with my operation

00:08:32.420 and then basically made me bend the knee and forced me to get out of digital publication.

00:08:36.840 And I had to—it took me two years to raise the money to fight them on that.

00:08:40.800 And I'm now suing the State Department in federal court.

00:08:44.720 Is that the lawsuit I was reading about?

00:08:46.280 I know you can never trust what's on the line there, but the DDC is claiming you violated their arms export control.

00:08:52.080 Is that what you're involved in right now?

00:08:54.060 Yeah, that's—so the Director of Defense Trade Controls was put up to this by the national security staff of the Obama administration,

00:09:00.660 which I think recognized, like, the problematic and embarrassing nature of just how much we were winning on this public narrative about the digital future of guns.

00:09:11.260 Of course, this gets into, like, my philosophical interest.

00:09:14.000 You know, we kind of de-eventalized the horizon of gun control in May of 2013.

00:09:22.780 And of course, the public ideology, I mean, it's still there, but, you know, we're doing a good job any time we get to talk about it.

00:09:30.660 Making it obvious that the Whig history and progress of gun control are not as simple as they appear to be.

00:09:39.860 So that had to be dealt with.

00:09:41.600 Like, even though it happened in symbolic terms, it had to be dealt with in symbolic terms.

00:09:45.340 So even though there was no way of kind of immediately putting me in jail, they had to kind of contrive this way of stopping me.

00:09:50.640 And they basically ended up using this Cold War export regime and then kind of re—like, forcing interpretation of it that blocks public speech,

00:10:03.500 which it had never in history before been used to do.

00:10:06.560 And so now we're going to court, and we found all these old affidavits and all the old—basically, like, an entire history of communications and intentions of this agency

00:10:16.540 showing it had never before tried to affect public speech this way.

00:10:21.120 I don't mean to get too into the weeds here.

00:10:23.160 We can go as deep into that as you want.

00:10:26.040 But basically, yeah, it was the use of the State Department to now stop public speech about a problematic political concept.

00:10:34.060 Yeah, I was reading somewhere that the government's claiming basically that the Internet is available worldwide,

00:10:38.620 so posting your blueprints is like—it's deemed an export?

00:10:42.380 I mean, that's insane. 0.99

00:10:44.100 Yeah, it's asinine. 0.99

00:10:45.060 And anyone who looks at it knows that it's asinine. 0.96

00:10:46.940 It's an extremely tough litigation position as well.

00:10:49.800 And I've even heard that the government is—so the deputy director of this agency is gone,

00:10:56.640 and, you know, they're not committed to the position anymore.

00:10:58.540 They just don't want to lose face.

00:10:59.660 So I've been told multiple times through back channels that they're going to try to approach me for some settlement.

00:11:04.580 I think they know that I don't want that.

00:11:07.160 But no, to get to your point, yeah, they're literally saying because someone can hear what I'm saying,

00:11:13.120 because it hits the Internet and someone else might hear it, it's dangerous speech.

00:11:17.820 Exactly, right?

00:11:18.600 And because someone can use this speech to do something, it's dangerous speech.

00:11:22.760 So the U.S. government's position—and this won't come as a surprise to your audience—is largely one of nihilism.

00:11:28.720 I mean, their exact position to the judge in the Western District was,

00:11:32.760 well, Your Honor, look, he can say whatever he wants as long as no one can hear it,

00:11:35.980 and no one can do anything with what he says.

00:11:37.660 You should ask them about Fast and Furious or how ISIS is getting weapons.

00:11:42.640 How's that happening, government?

00:11:44.040 Oh, I'm not a—I mean, of course, I completely agree with you, but I'm not like a, I don't know, a petulant moralist about it.

00:11:52.860 Of course.

00:11:53.100 I enjoy this.

00:11:55.020 I enjoy the absurdity of it, and I believe that this is a kind of ladder by which to further, I don't know, gain spiritual authority in this.

00:12:04.460 I mean, this sounds kind of indulgent and arrogant.

00:12:07.160 I just mean that, like, I could have only imagined—like, I could have only dreamed of a conflict like this.

00:12:12.540 Because by the law and by, you know, the ethics and other things, I mean, we win so handily that I kind of want to see how forced a panel of judges is, you know, to create bad law out of this.

00:12:27.520 Because there's—I mean, I'm skeptical that they'll let me win just because, you know, it's the government's court talking about the government's powers.

00:12:34.380 But, I mean, we win so many different ways on this, and their position is so tortured that I'm really curious to see just, you know, how quickly we can make them kind of create a suicidal and untenable position.

00:12:46.660 Think they'll try and put you in jail in the end?

00:12:50.040 Oh, maybe not.

00:12:51.040 Hopefully exile. 1.00

00:12:51.900 I'd like to go to Sweden.

00:12:52.960 I hear that's nice.

00:12:53.880 No, actually, it's completely being destroyed.

00:12:56.180 We can talk about that later.

00:12:58.000 Well, I heard you mention you were getting some sort of licenses from the government.

00:13:01.980 What kind of licenses do you have to get to do a 3D printed gun?

00:13:06.880 Oh, you must mean the federal firearms license.

00:13:09.900 Yeah.

00:13:10.840 When, in 13, I was doing a lot of our liberator work, like our printed gun work, I thought—like, I knew no matter what, that they would try to stop what I was doing.

00:13:22.720 And the people at the ATF, the enforcement potentials at the ATF are so much more likely than some of the other laws I was looking at.

00:13:32.200 So I at least came up with a narrative for how if I had a federal firearms license, I could say, well, look, I'm taking advantage of 922E and all these other things.

00:13:41.500 Anyway, I came up with a legal story.

00:13:43.460 So I knew that, like, if they gave me trouble, I'd at least be able to kind of grind it out in the courts and I wouldn't immediately go to jail.

00:13:48.720 So I got an FFL just as a way of an insurance scheme, you know, a grand kind of CYA.

00:13:54.660 And that's really how I've approached other things I've done in my activism, if you want to call it that.

00:14:00.240 I just—you don't give them the easy way to play.

00:14:03.780 You have to make it hard for them.

00:14:06.140 Now, what kind of costs are involved with a license such as you tried to get?

00:14:09.580 I think you said you spent, like, $40,000 or something in the end.

00:14:13.360 Oh, wow.

00:14:13.740 Much more than that, of course, with the lawsuit.

00:14:15.360 But, I mean, if you want to get an FFL, that in itself is pretty cheap.

00:14:18.740 It's, like, I don't know, like, less than $500 for three years.

00:14:22.380 And then you can add on a $500 tax stamp every year to do, like, NFA weapons.

00:14:27.400 But the more complicated things are every FFL has to be registered with the State Department.

00:14:31.900 This is, like, a $2,700 annual license.

00:14:35.100 And then, of course, there's the zoning and regulatory requirements of your local municipality and of your state,

00:14:40.860 which have to be, you know, consonant with the federal requirements.

00:14:44.000 And so this, like, might affect your rent.

00:14:46.340 And all FFLs have to be tied to a kind of physical permanent address and permanent contract relationship with the landlord.

00:14:53.420 And the landlord I have right now down in Menchaca is physically and psychologically abusive of the people that I send down there.

00:15:00.100 So it's extremely just, like, taxing and onerous just to even try to operate in Austin, Texas with a federal firearms license.

00:15:07.640 So it's more, like, it's more just a matter of, like, opportunity costs and just extreme, I don't know, like, annoyance.

00:15:14.880 And it's just sapping, you know.

00:15:16.880 And I hate having it.

00:15:17.920 I don't even really use it.

00:15:19.040 But I just have it as this, one of these kind of ritualistic, you know, presentations for external power.

00:15:26.960 Well, let's talk about the materials you're using to print a gun.

00:15:30.480 I mean, this is always the biggest question.

00:15:32.060 So can you tell us about the materials?

00:15:34.720 Yeah, I can.

00:15:35.480 I had, by the way, like, in June, I was sitting in court and listening to the state attorney lie about how I made one of these guns and, like, lie about the materials that I was using.

00:15:45.900 I mean, it was just amazing.

00:15:47.360 Because if anyone knows how to make this gun, I would say that I know how to make this gun.

00:15:52.260 Over the past few months, I've had the DOJ and all these other people just, like, lie about how to make this gun.

00:15:57.460 Of course. Yeah.

00:15:57.960 So let me put it straight.

00:16:02.000 So I use ABS thermoplastic in the Liberators.

00:16:05.060 Now, I should say as well, I mean, it's been so long since I've printed Liberator pistols.

00:16:09.120 I do it every now and then.

00:16:10.340 But, I mean, it's been so long since we were in that heyday of doing that particular work that I've almost lost.

00:16:17.060 I've almost lost.

00:16:18.140 Yeah, like, I've almost lost contact with it.

00:16:20.060 Like, it's almost like me talking about someone else doing it instead of myself.

00:16:25.540 But basically, we used a set of printers from the early 2000s by Stratasys.

00:16:30.640 We used their Stratasys technique, which is called Fused Filament Modeling or Fused Deposition Modeling.

00:16:36.200 It's kind of like an elaborate hot glue gun with a really fine degree of resolution.

00:16:42.140 And you draw the part up from this, like, molten solidifying plastic in these many, many layers that your computer interprets for you from, like, a tessellated model that you can design in computer-aided design software.

00:16:55.900 And I guess I just made it sound really complicated.

00:16:59.000 Of course, most people who've been exposed here at this point know that it's really not.

00:17:04.100 The design of the Liberator pistol only took a few weeks in the end.

00:17:08.660 The real tricks were just coming up with printed springs that maintain the right spring tension.

00:17:13.680 And the real, like, I'm going to, like, get off topic now.

00:17:20.200 But to me, like, the real performance was always the bureaucratic, regulatory, and political performance, much less so, like, the actual physical creation of the pistol.

00:17:30.860 Sure.

00:17:31.380 Yeah, I got that.

00:17:33.000 But if you want, like, more details on that, I mean, yeah, the pistol was chambered in .380.

00:17:36.820 And the barrel itself was completely plastic and completely printed.

00:17:41.800 And, yeah, it worked just fine.

00:17:43.700 Have you bought any materials from companies who tip the government off about you?

00:17:47.580 Does that happen?

00:17:48.780 I don't know.

00:17:49.460 I don't think it's, it's not like chemistry or other places in the physical sciences.

00:17:54.760 I don't think there are, like, sensitive but unclassified guidelines about providing, you know, like, data to the government about what people are purchasing.

00:18:02.900 It's mostly just plastic that you're purchasing, and there's no import restrictions on buying your filament from China.

00:18:08.640 I mean, like, there's so many producers.

00:18:10.580 So, no, I don't really feel like I'm purchasing into any kind of network that's reporting back to the feds.

00:18:16.800 And, anyway, I know that, like, there's already some superintendent surveillance happening.

00:18:21.720 I mean, regardless, like, they don't need a reporting network of suppliers.

00:18:25.440 They just kind of can tap my Google account if they want to see what I want to do.

00:18:28.880 But, yeah, like, I mean, I've bought a host of materials, and I've got to experiment with a whole range of printers over the years.

00:18:37.280 I don't know, by the way, if you've seen our Ghost Gunner project in any of your reading about what we've done.

00:18:43.140 Yeah, I have.

00:18:44.120 That's kind of this whole other chapter of, and really, like, we've learned and had much more conflict in that project with suppliers and business partners and things.

00:18:53.640 That's the only reason I bring it up.

00:18:55.860 But, no, in the printing days, I mean, I just think it was so outside of most standard, like, police structures that, no, I think I was largely left alone.

00:19:08.440 Now, can you also print bullets?

00:19:10.320 Is that a reality yet?

00:19:12.080 Yeah, you can print bullets.

00:19:13.160 It just depends on what you mean.

00:19:14.440 You know, a bullet is typically just considered the projectile part of the cartridge.

00:19:18.000 Yeah, you can print it, but, I mean, in terms of, like, the standard printable materials, it's not, it doesn't have, like, the requisite density to be an effective or lethal projectile or bullet.

00:19:31.060 Now, if you want to print it in metal or use some other digital fabrication, like, yeah, okay, go for it, do it.

00:19:37.640 And plenty of people have, since I've been working in the years after, published into the public domain the schematics for commonly available NATO cartridges and other cartridges.

00:19:48.020 So all the data is out there.

00:19:49.180 You can physically and digitally create them.

00:19:51.900 And I think it's worth doing.

00:19:53.880 But when we talk about printing, it's really more of, it's just a bit more complicated than, and by complicated, I mean it's both, like, it is less than the sum of its advertised parts.

00:20:06.440 You know, in terms of its material actuality, like, what it can achieve.

00:20:10.740 And then it's more evocative of a kind of coming capability.

00:20:14.820 But as it is right now, like, commonly available 3D printing, especially consumer printing, was oversold.

00:20:19.860 It was overhyped.

00:20:20.740 And, I mean, I was a part of trying to, like, transubstantiate it into this, like, nightmare scenario.

00:20:27.720 And I believe that it served our ends.

00:20:29.220 But really, from the beginning, as a consumer phenomenon, it was always oversold in its capabilities.

00:20:36.440 Now, another big question people always want to know, are you worried about your plans getting in the wrong hands?

00:20:42.800 I'm so, it's so interesting that you asked me that.

00:20:47.820 No, I don't believe that we can even deem wrong hands, frankly.

00:20:54.940 And especially now that I have to kind of listen to these noxious bumper stickers from the government in their briefings and before the judge about world peace and national security.

00:21:05.220 I mean, literally, right?

00:21:06.280 Like, you know, we can't protect world peace if Cody Wilson can publish his plan. 0.98

00:21:10.800 This is ridiculous.

00:21:12.960 And it's really the height of how the standard liberal attitude seamlessly transitions into its illiberal Mr. Hyde in the name of itself. 0.95

00:21:26.500 I mean, it's incredible to watch it happen in the middle of the day.

00:21:29.000 So, no, I'm not worried about it.

00:21:31.120 And, in fact, the only ethically authentic position is to not worry about it.

00:21:36.400 Now, have you heard from anyone in places like Europe, Canada, or Australia trying to print a gun?

00:21:40.880 Because, as you know, they're very anti-gun in those places.

00:21:43.300 They can't have them unless for hunting purposes.

00:21:46.420 Oh, I know.

00:21:47.000 God, you know, I familiarize myself with the blooming security state of New South Wales only after the experience of this project in Australia.

00:21:55.940 And, yeah, look, plenty of people are doing the work out there.

00:21:59.500 And, in fact, you know, most recently in Australia there was an arrest when they, I don't know, they served some kind of drug warrant and they found parts for a 3D-printed Derringer, which was, you know, really amusing.

00:22:11.620 And, of course, set everybody off down there.

00:22:14.280 Wait a minute.

00:22:14.900 Guns can't happen down here.

00:22:16.040 You know, we did away with that.

00:22:17.640 Yeah, and then crime went up, too.

00:22:19.780 But guns don't exist anymore.

00:22:21.620 But, yeah, I mean, yes, I'm aware of other people doing these things.

00:22:26.540 I don't actively facilitate it.

00:22:28.100 I'm aware of it happening.

00:22:29.420 And I'm aware of, like, the extreme allergy that these authorities have for it.

00:22:33.220 In fact, through other channels I've got contact with, you know, you could call them the head of the Australian ATF and stuff over there.

00:22:40.720 I mean, you just have to, to those governments, I represent something more of an existential threat to their politics.

00:22:49.180 I mean, not an existential, you see, like, I represent something of a necessary contact more than I do in the United States where I'm seen as just a kind of annoyance and something to be kind of critically disposed of when it's convenient.

00:23:01.060 But to these other governments, they, I think, feel the need for, like, a contact and a dialogue because they have no other way of, like, feeling that they can mold events.

00:23:10.280 So, yeah, yeah, I'm aware.

00:23:12.880 I know that EU's become so totalitarian.

00:23:15.340 I don't know how much you follow that.

00:23:16.640 And there's people in Europe that just feel like sitting ducks, not being able to get guns for protection because now they have mass immigration, which is leading to all this conflict.

00:23:24.560 But it seems only the foreigners are getting guns on the black market, whereas the natives don't know how and where to get guns, you know? 1.00

00:23:31.740 Oh, yeah.

00:23:32.280 The poor domesticated natives, right? 1.00

00:23:34.180 The house pets.

00:23:35.040 Oh, yeah.

00:23:35.360 Of European superstatism.

00:23:38.140 Yeah, I'm a Euroskeptic.

00:23:39.840 I mean, I've followed Farage since I was in college, you know, and kind of watched that whole anti-EU movement there with, I think, the expectation that it would translate over here to, if not like a new conservative politics, like a new independent, you know, independence, anti-globalist politics.

00:23:56.180 And, I mean, I think to a degree it's happening, especially, like, maybe we'll get to talk about Trump.

00:24:01.340 I mean, there are all the signs of it happening here.

00:24:05.360 Or at least something, a kind of nascence.

00:24:10.020 But Euroskepticism and, you know, like the failure of the European project is its own thing.

00:24:15.480 And, I mean, I do everything I can.

00:24:17.620 I do everything I can to follow it.

00:24:18.760 You know, like, I guess the most interesting thing right now happening is Corbyn as a symptom of all this, of, I mean, like, of new labor and socialism's, like, ultimate kind of terminus.

00:24:30.800 Like, where did, like, an age of Corbyn-style governance send us?

00:24:36.220 Or does it just enable, you know, globalist Cameron-style, I don't know, neoliberal management until the end of time?

00:24:44.120 And I don't know.

00:24:46.620 And, of course, the migrant crisis on top of all of this, does it end up enabling, like, total police states even faster? 0.88

00:24:53.040 Or does it end up creating a kind of tribalist nativism, which at least, like, can restate a, like, national purpose in a way that hasn't been done yet?

00:25:02.660 I'm all about, I think tribalism would be great.

00:25:05.700 Decentralizing, breaking up into, you know, little areas with your people, choosing how you want to live, you know.

00:25:11.220 Yeah, I wanted to know your opinion of, well, I call them, it's an invasion, they're really not refugees coming in.

00:25:17.600 I saw that you posted a video, footage from Europe of these people trying to get into Hungary.

00:25:23.360 And you mentioned the phrase cultural terrorism once, and that's how I see what's happening in Europe.

00:25:27.660 You know, I live there some of the time, and it's utterly being transformed for the worse against the will of the people, and this is the government doing it.

00:25:34.640 Unless they're, you know, ethno-suicidal, like, Swedes or Germans, they're just calling out for it because they have some sort of strange guilt over something that never happens. 0.63

00:25:43.200 So are you one who values culture, folk, and ancestors?

00:25:46.540 Because a lot of anarchists tend to not care about that.

00:25:50.060 I think a lot of anarchists tend to not care about it in that where anarchists are in their lives, when they claim anarchism, is often tied to youth culture.

00:25:59.840 And I'm not trying to denigrate anarchism by that.

00:26:02.440 There's still a rich tradition of, you know, labor relations and a focus on workers' rights and syndicalism that just kind of, for the time, negates tradition and community, at least in their stabilizing roles and influences in a society.

00:26:17.000 Because, you know, in an anarchist's mind, my goal is to overcome tradition, right, to kind of break that down and create something new, a break with what has come before.

00:26:27.760 So I understand at least, like, the modality there that an anarchist would—I agree with you in part.

00:26:32.440 An anarchists would tend to ignore these things, one would think.

00:26:36.560 But, I mean, I come from, I think, a tradition that—well, whatever.

00:26:40.640 I'll lay claim to a tradition which is, I think, looks like the thought from Hoppe, which is something like, well, why anarchism, right?

00:26:47.780 I mean, okay, fine.

00:26:48.720 Anarchism, anti-statism.

00:26:50.560 We're against royal thought, royal science.

00:26:53.380 And why?

00:26:54.240 Well, because we want to create, kind of like you've expressed, this potentiality for new political and social ways of being.

00:27:03.240 And it's okay with me that they look like traditional forms.

00:27:08.240 It's okay with me that they have stabilizing influences and that ultimately we can reproduce some of the traditional cultures or, you know, that we idealize or identify with from the past.

00:27:20.320 I mean, just the allowing something new to happen, a break, you know, a fracture from hegemonic modernity, you know, which is the dominant culture, this multicultural consumer society.

00:27:34.160 I mean, everyone's equally allergic to it.

00:27:36.080 It's okay that we all have ideas, different ideas about what can be the kind of fruitful produce after it or between it.

00:27:43.460 And I'm not saying, like, I don't believe in the overcoming of that order in total.

00:27:47.020 I just believe that the only thing worth doing is preserving humanity and fighting for spaces where we can just have novel forms of political and social life.

00:27:58.560 And so anarchism as a means, right?

00:28:00.500 Like not, and a means to get to what you're talking about, organized tradition, like, you know.

00:28:06.940 Yeah, I like it more, I call it a primordial traditionalism. 0.97

00:28:11.000 I think a lot of what people think is Western culture right now is total crap, you know. 0.98

00:28:15.460 It's not authentic. 0.98

00:28:16.360 It's just buying stuff.

00:28:18.040 I mean, look at America.

00:28:18.880 We're so, we have no roots.

00:28:20.360 We have no connection to our people.

00:28:21.840 We have no idea who we were before Christianity and what our ancestors did, what kind of lifestyle they had.

00:28:27.320 I think that, you know, ancient pagan lifestyle, that primordial traditionalism was very grounded in nature and natural law and reality.

00:28:35.000 I think that's why you're seeing, I don't know if you've heard of more of an alt-right movement that's coming out of that.

00:28:40.180 Of course.

00:28:41.120 Yeah, and I think there's a lot of energy with the alt-right.

00:28:43.520 And, you know, this is why the work of, like, Sam Hyde and others is so great.

00:28:48.120 And we can effectively diagnose what's happened in Europe and what is happening here.

00:28:54.040 You know, there's just the legacy of, like, the failure of conservative revolutionaries and basically, like, the reaction to, or let's say, like, what's developed as,

00:29:04.780 the kind of anti-fascist consensus politics of democratic capitalism has just produced not only, like, this just, like, extreme banalization of life,

00:29:14.680 it's reduced or eliminated all political principles.

00:29:19.480 So now, you know, I see a picture of a dead Syrian toddler, as Sam Hyde would say, like,

00:29:24.160 now anything can be done to me politically because there's a dead Syrian toddler. 0.96

00:29:27.760 Oh, look, this simply will not stand.

00:29:29.580 I mean, it doesn't work that way.

00:29:31.040 And we have to resurrect and resuscitate the very basic political principles.

00:29:36.180 I believe that anti-statism is expressly like a technological anti-statism is a way of leveraging back individual autonomy,

00:29:47.520 spiritual authority, and ways of creating, you know, let me think about this,

00:29:52.960 ways of creating antithetical forms of political life.

00:29:57.580 And it's okay that those end up taking forms that are controversial and individualistic, exclusionary, based on difference.

00:30:05.080 I mean, that's the whole point.

00:30:06.280 That's true diversity, right?

00:30:08.660 Exactly.

00:30:09.620 A no-brainer.

00:30:10.160 I think people just kind of get stuck on, I don't know who these people are, never mind.

00:30:16.120 I think people get so fixated on politics as its own end, and political thought and political philosophy as its own end.

00:30:29.740 And, you know, my question is, well, for what?

00:30:32.740 Anarchism for what?

00:30:33.900 Well, I think everyone here should be an anarchist to tear down this system because it's got to go.

00:30:38.020 But really, they're doing it to themselves.

00:30:40.340 If you're paying attention, it's like this is completely unsustainable what they're creating here in America.

00:30:45.120 And it's just, it's not going to last.

00:30:46.660 What do you think?

00:30:48.100 Yeah.

00:30:48.540 I mean, as long as, like, we don't, so we say they, right? 0.70

00:30:51.700 I mean, we're a part of what's being created in America, too.

00:30:54.900 And I know that, you know, it's not, that's one way of just, like, raising awareness of what we're doing.

00:31:00.500 I mean, what's happening.

00:31:01.300 And it's also, we can't just point a finger.

00:31:04.540 America itself, though, is, I mean, there's something amazing about American political life.

00:31:10.640 It may no longer be as true as it was, but it's always resisted, I think, radical influences.

00:31:16.800 Like, I still don't believe, and maybe this is just my naivety showing, but, like, I still don't believe you, there's even a path to get to a Bernie Sanders presidency.

00:31:24.460 But, you know, I mean, that, you know, I could definitely see how in 20, 25 years with demographic shifts and, like, the extreme ravages that, you know, this over-articulated welfare state does.

00:31:40.540 I mean, that we could have it.

00:31:42.560 I just think that there's something mitigating about the American experience that has always kind of, I don't know, look at me being, like, optimistic.

00:31:52.140 Maybe I shouldn't even go.

00:31:53.880 Well, no, I'm with you, and I think generally, you know, it was a melting pot of Europeans, and we value things like non-aggression and rights, and a lot of Europeans that fled were also fleeing persecution.

00:32:06.060 You know, half of the people died to come here and set up, and they sacrificed to start something new.

00:32:10.640 I mean, these ideas are really a European people thing, so I just wonder, how's it going to work if we're a minority with a majority who's more collectivist?

00:32:18.060 So we may have these kinds of utopian ideas, and we like the non-aggression principle, but how's that going to work with this incoming population? 1.00

00:32:26.860 You know what I mean?

00:32:27.720 See, yeah, like, when you ask that question, I think that's a genuinely felt and, like, real political question.

00:32:34.040 I think it's a disservice when people, like, dismiss that question in its terms, because, of course, like, the other side of the coin is always accepted.

00:32:42.660 I mean, we're hearing about all the time about how demographics are going to change politics in the country.

00:32:46.780 Well, okay, what is this country like?

00:32:50.340 Okay, let me restate that.

00:32:52.720 Let me just engage with the question on its own terms.

00:32:54.720 I think a majority-minority country, a United States as a majority-minority country, like, simply has to fracture. 0.53

00:33:08.100 It simply has to break apart, and I think this will happen sooner rather than later, right?

00:33:13.460 Illinois is basically circling the drain of some type of structured bankruptcy invention, and, you know, there's Puerto Rico now, and, of course, there's going to be a string of municipal bankruptcies.

00:33:23.040 I mean, thankfully, this federal system of, like, massive wealth transference is just going to outstrip itself and really break, and then we'll have to basically have more communities of interest and regional purpose that band together and represent their own interests.

00:33:42.820 So, I don't know.

00:33:44.260 Maybe this democratic super state, as Hoppe says, is just an extreme failure mode, and we're just watching what the failure looks like.

00:33:55.080 I mean, I don't think that there's any problem at all of large communities of people, especially in a welfare state scenario, wanting to preserve, like, their demographic ratio, wanting to keep out, basically, illegal immigration and abuse of their systems.

00:34:11.280 But they can't, and they don't have the political will, or they don't have the political opportunity to do so.

00:34:16.720 And so, like, there must be a break.

00:34:18.640 There must be something broken.

00:34:20.780 It will not work in those terms.

00:34:23.600 So, yeah, I don't see anything but reasons for an evaluation of degradation and destruction of this system based off what you're describing these trends to be.

00:34:37.360 I agree.

00:34:38.980 Well, liberals and progressives, they seem like they've become puritanical witch hunters.

00:34:43.120 It's like a new religion. 0.84

00:34:45.200 They're, like, obsessed about it, and it seems like they really want to end free speech because they call it hate speech, right?

00:34:51.140 So, you know, because of this, where do you think internet censorship is heading?

00:34:55.460 How far is this going to go?

00:34:56.660 Well, because we already see that you've experienced, you know, trying to do fundraising or using payment processors.

00:35:01.460 They deny you.

00:35:02.280 They deny you now, too, based on, you know, hate speech or violence or racial intolerance.

00:35:07.080 They're cutting people off from using certain things.

00:35:09.140 These capitalists have basically become the moral police, and they're enforcing things for the government.

00:35:14.120 So where do you think this is heading?

00:35:15.220 Yeah, like, especially what I've seen in my experience and with what you've described, there is, I mean, this huge artifice that drives, I don't know, conformity is the right word, but it's, like, homogeneity as well.

00:35:31.220 I mean, everything's being condensed both in, like, its functional power.

00:35:36.280 There's just, like, a universalization of, and condensation of the functions of power through these networks of banking and political relationships, and then also, like, a condensation of thought, like, conformal thought.

00:35:50.760 I just got rejected yesterday by another payment processor.

00:35:54.420 This one, First Data, an ISO of a Texas bank, and they said, this is great, right, because I've spent, like, years, I know how to play this game at this point,

00:36:03.560 and so I have jurisdictional documents from the State Department and counsel's letters about ATF law and stuff.

00:36:09.220 I mean, I'm just showing them that, like, all of the stuff that I'm doing, like this ghost gunner mill that I sell, is completely legal, completely unregulated.

00:36:17.020 And, in fact, you know, basically, I have, like, state jurisdiction to even sell it overseas, all this stuff.

00:36:23.040 I give them these documents, and these credit departments and these banks, they come back, and it's, like, because they can't tell me that it's illegal, they go, well, you know, one day it'll be illegal.

00:36:31.520 And, also, we don't want to do business with you.

00:36:35.140 It's just, there's a society here that, or there's, like, a tendency here that you can't even have, look, what I argue to be, like, a traditional idea.

00:36:45.880 You know, if you can't make guns in the state of Texas or make a machine that can make a gun in the state of Texas and sell to Texas residents, you know, what do you have here?

00:36:55.480 This is, like, this is something else entirely.

00:36:57.860 And to get to the broader point of your question, I mean, there's a, there's the diagnosis of governmentality, which I think I have more exposure to than, than, okay, so there's the diagnosis of governmentality, and then there's what you've mentioned about, like, the culture of social justice warriors and university discourse.

00:37:15.200 I think these are two different things.

00:37:16.340 But governmentality is the operation of states as states with each other and how that affects, like, the public.

00:37:21.880 And I have come into direct personal contact with this in a way that most people just, you know, the operation of states as states simply is just beyond most people's daily lived experience.

00:37:31.340 But basically, there's this need with Wassner and these other, you know, the UN Arms Trade Treaty and, like, this condensation of internationalists and global legal structures to completely prevent certain technical and political forms of life and experience.

00:37:50.400 And they, they have articulated this structure since the Cold War, especially in the United States, which is, like, equivalent to military urbanism, but in information control.

00:38:00.460 They do not believe, I mean, they believe that certain forms of data just at their birth are already the exclusive property of this government and are therefore, you know, are therefore controlled.

00:38:11.580 And you automatically have to buy into a licensing regime paying $2,700 a year to even ask them if you can speak about these things or give that speech to somebody else, share that with someone else.

00:38:22.520 This is not an outgrowth, by the way, of, like, the new left.

00:38:26.700 I mean, this is an outgrowth, I think, directly of the Cold War experience and Cold Warrior administrative ideation.

00:38:34.900 I mean, this is, this is still to oversimplify it, but I mean, it's also, like, an example of, I think, Foucauldian, the Foucauldian boomerang.

00:38:43.960 You know, as we tried to grade information in the nuclear age and the computer age, which kind of, you know, they developed together, we created a system of protecting and defending a certain, like, monopoly and, I don't know, privileged position of technological development against what we perceived to be a large global enemy.

00:39:03.080 But when that enemy dissipated, those structures, those administrative and defensive structures, the articulation of a defense industrial base, like, those things remained and then became, still became, like, the scaffolding of how our Mandarin class understood that data then with its own public and then with the operation of the rest of the states that exist in the Westphalian system.

00:39:25.920 So, something was, like, what am I trying to say?

00:39:30.980 There's still a grand Cold War experience happening at the level of fundamental technology and invention that I'm just not able to communicate to people and is so far outside of most people's daily lived experience that, you know, most people want to fight the culture wars or, you know, they want to understand things that are more relatable to their experience.

00:39:47.900 But, like, there's something really terrifying happening in the operation of states as states and the 3D printed gun was just a way of me being able to see that and be a part of that.

00:39:57.100 But I definitely want to talk to you about the social justice experience as well, which is a more kind of reflexive, automatic, social signaling politics.

00:40:06.200 You know, it's, I mean, deeply, deeply conformist in its attitudes and is a way of, I mean, what's, its internal irony is, in the name of free speech and protecting the speech of minorities and, right, we have to appeal to large, predominantly white police structures to police speech.

00:40:23.400 You know, it is its own internal contradiction, especially in the university context, like UCLA and these other places.

00:40:29.940 I mean, let's, let's please get the evil racist institutions to come in and police the evil racist speech mores.

00:40:36.200 I mean, it's evidently, it's evidently farcical.

00:40:40.980 Yeah, you know, you brought up social justice wars and I'm just thinking of these hacktivists.

00:40:45.500 They're basically, you know, politically correct social justice wars because there was the latest one from Anonymous.

00:40:50.140 And I know that's lots of different people, but they're trying to expose, you know, racist KKK members or whatever.

00:40:55.200 And we all know if KKK is mostly government agents, it's such a joke.

00:40:58.160 But it seems anytime these hackers are doing stuff, it's still very safe.

00:41:02.240 And for the establishment, nothing of real value, like, let's say, exposing APAC or how about wiping out all our IRS records.

00:41:09.020 So what do you think about some of these hacktivists?

00:41:10.820 Are they for real?

00:41:12.540 Right.

00:41:12.940 They want to live, they want to live Fight Club, but without blowing up the, yeah, the record, the record store.

00:41:18.240 So are they for real?

00:41:21.360 I mean, it's so general.

00:41:22.540 But you're right.

00:41:23.080 There's a certain bent to hacktivism, which, especially in Europe, and I'm very friendly with a group of hackers across Europe called the UnSystem.

00:41:31.220 I'm friendly with Jarmil and Dine.org.

00:41:34.680 And so I'm sympathetic to their aims, which I believe are harder for me to identify with because they still come from, you know, this European tradition.

00:41:41.960 But, I mean, setting all those qualifications aside, yes, there is this tendency, which I find to be lazy and not academically rigorous and not really even politically rigorous, to just identify with the speech codes of the cultural left and the cultural left's youth culture.

00:42:00.280 Really at the expense of meaningful political discussion.

00:42:06.140 And still there's a kind of enforced policing of attitudes, which prevent, like what you've said, right?

00:42:13.920 I mean, when we want to drill down to like, well, what is the KKK in operation in America?

00:42:18.060 I mean, mostly like what I've seen about neo-Nazis and the penetration of white naturalist movements by the FBI and police.

00:42:28.620 Oh, yeah.

00:42:29.040 They're all over it.

00:42:30.120 It's so fraught.

00:42:31.240 I mean, it's so, you won't even like, and remember, I come from Texas.

00:42:35.380 You're in the South now.

00:42:36.200 Like, you know, when I grew up, when I learned about all these things, you know, I learned about the militia movement being thoroughly compromised from the beginning.

00:42:44.840 I mean, you can't talk about Ruby Ridge.

00:42:47.040 You can't talk about Waco.

00:42:47.980 You can't talk about any of this stuff without understanding its immediate compromising by police structures.

00:42:58.960 What am I trying to say?

00:42:59.940 Like, there's a certain like attitude that's not, I'm trying to thread this needle here for you.

00:43:05.260 Hold on.

00:43:05.660 It's okay.

00:43:07.340 Culture is so complex.

00:43:08.320 So, I'm always annoyed when I hear Europeans commenting on the American political process, especially like in the South or like Trump or, you know, they just don't understand those trade wins.

00:43:23.880 But then, I mean, that critique would have to apply to me as well.

00:43:26.320 I can't be as annoyed as I want to be, I guess, with the kind of what I see as the collectivist tendency in European anarchist politics.

00:43:34.500 So, like, I'm annoyed at them.

00:43:36.400 They're annoyed at me.

00:43:37.600 They're over-reliant on the gun issue and stuff.

00:43:38.980 So, maybe I'm trying to be Pollyannish here.

00:43:41.720 I just, but I agree with you.

00:43:43.980 I don't find, I don't find hacktivist politics to even be well-read.

00:43:48.920 I find it to mostly be just a more technical extension of the social and university signaling that is just kind of the mode and fashionable and not really informed by anything other than a commitment to the preservation of the structures they supposedly critique, right?

00:44:07.500 I mean, they are imminently safe, like you said, completely safe, not really meant to do anything other than just position themselves.

00:44:16.140 I just wonder, too, I mean, where's some of our people on our side that want to start, like, a new version of PayPal or banks or, you know, just high-tech stuff that's, you know, that isn't owned by the establishment?

00:44:29.260 Do you think that these people will arise out of the woodwork, or are they fighting with a monopoly in order to try and get some of these things done?

00:44:36.180 I've got to have my eyes on this just a little bit to the point where, okay, fine, maybe I have a good understanding of it.

00:44:42.680 I mean, I think the reason Coinbase as a Bitcoin exchange and provider was able to survive was because of its connections to Silicon Valley Bank and its connections to board members at JPMorgan Chase.

00:44:57.160 And so, you know, a lot of the people that got into Bitcoin and the new payment startups people, they understand that their survival is still based on, you know, blowing kisses at and making ties with the legacy banking structures.

00:45:09.700 So, morally and politically, they're compromised, in my mind.

00:45:15.620 I don't, look, the people I've met trying to do supposedly new payment systems or other things, like, they're not mature enough about it.

00:45:24.260 They're not serious enough about it.

00:45:25.460 They don't realize how deeply entangled and complicated and difficult it is.

00:45:31.380 Or if they do realize that, they find that it's easier just to, I don't know, become a personality or do something like that's not as difficult.

00:45:40.180 So, I don't see people building infrastructure.

00:45:42.540 And I'm glad that you've asked about this because, you know, I'm trying to build infrastructure.

00:45:47.900 But it's very, very difficult.

00:45:51.440 Yeah, I was thinking, where's those, you know, mad techie geniuses and transhumanists and guys that build weaponry? 0.88

00:45:57.600 Like, why aren't they organizing better and more covertly?

00:46:01.400 I'll tell you.

00:46:02.000 I mean, in my, so, okay, Ghost Gunner.

00:46:04.960 I build a mill called the Ghost Gunner right now.

00:46:07.160 It is almost banal.

00:46:09.380 Only its marketing is, like, extreme.

00:46:11.160 It really is just a mill.

00:46:12.240 Like, it's not even, it doesn't do anything extreme.

00:46:14.480 But I have lost so many payments providers.

00:46:19.160 I mean, Stripe, Shopify Payments, PayPal, First Data, WorldPay.

00:46:24.580 I mean, on and on and on.

00:46:26.480 And, of course, of the ones I've lost, I've been rejected by many, many more just in applications.

00:46:30.560 I mean, just to even get to a place where you can acquire capital as, let's call you, like, a radical industrialist or radical technologist of, like, an alt-right or anarchist persuasion.

00:46:41.620 Just to get there is itself a feat.

00:46:44.480 And, like, I can't even act like I'm still there.

00:46:46.600 I mean, I've got a lot of cash in the bank right now.

00:46:48.740 And I've got one relationship with one payments provider.

00:46:51.320 But I'm doing applications every month because this payments provider has, from time to time, turn off my money.

00:46:57.240 And, like, I'm not in a place where I have secure banking relationships.

00:47:01.240 And I probably never will.

00:47:02.600 Even if I do offshore payments processing.

00:47:04.420 I mean, you're constantly, like, running like a fugitive, like a marginal, hoping that you don't bring enough, like, scrutiny on what you do or people find out your critical relationships.

00:47:13.580 And that doesn't just apply to payments.

00:47:15.140 That applies to insurance.

00:47:16.280 I had to start my own insurance company just to underwrite some of my standard risks.

00:47:21.640 I mean, because no one would give me a standard BOP.

00:47:25.300 I mean, like, and so I'm just saying, like, after years and years of years, sorry, I'm making it sound like it's a long time now.

00:47:31.800 How long have I been doing this?

00:47:33.420 Since 12, maybe.

00:47:34.840 Okay, so three strong years of just trying to give myself a platform to do what I want to do and build some of our projects.

00:47:42.080 The hardest part in the world is just having these business relationships.

00:47:45.180 And people can say, well, you know, look, you're acting like there's not, you know, unfilterable currency like Bitcoin or something.

00:47:52.800 Well, fine.

00:47:53.200 But, like, you have to have these legal and business relationships.

00:47:57.860 And because they're all so intimately tied to the consensus capitalist system, I think the only hope that we've got, and this is going to sound terrible and boring, but, like, the only hope we have is in, like, actually building our own infrastructure.

00:48:10.540 I don't mean in, like.

00:48:11.560 I agree completely.

00:48:12.380 In the abstract sense, but, like, do you know of any alt-right, like, insurance providers or payments processors right now?

00:48:18.440 No, because people aren't willing to, like, actually make that their life.

00:48:22.540 They want to engage in the more, like, romantic aspects of, like, critique and, you know, everybody.

00:48:27.120 This is something a lot of us are talking about right now, you know, and as more people are coming in, there's more people with money that are also being drawn to this.

00:48:33.660 So I think it's just in the early phases of organizing something and that it will transpire into actually even a separate system.

00:48:40.680 It's almost outside of the system, almost preparing, like, a separate nation altogether on the outskirts.

00:48:47.340 Well, right, and that's one of the big ideas that's realistically being executed in San Francisco right now, right?

00:48:54.200 I mean, there's seasteading and the real ideas of, like, actual secessionist fever, technologically mediated secessionism.

00:49:00.620 And I know it's being worked on, and I'm sure everyone's having the comfort.

00:49:05.100 I'm so disconnected from anything that you could call a movement.

00:49:08.660 I mean, I'm out here in my own radical alienation with my own people and employees, and we're just trying to build our own thing, right, and defend against attacks.

00:49:16.320 And, like, I don't have much time to poke my head up.

00:49:18.080 So I don't know what's going on, and don't allow me, just by my offhand comments, to discount the work that you're a part of.

00:49:23.440 No, but you're right.

00:49:24.200 You're right.

00:49:24.900 It's not coming together yet.

00:49:26.880 Where is it?

00:49:27.420 I'm always frustrated about that.

00:49:29.200 Well, I'll tell you.

00:49:29.860 I have—I've got a new thing I'm launching at the end of the year, too, and it's mostly just for the gun industry, which has just been so completely ghettoized.

00:49:36.760 I mean, like, there's not more things happening in weapons and weapons startups just because it's been so consumed by the defense industrial base, DARPA money, DOD money, and, like, that's the elevator.

00:49:48.200 You're not going to be, like, a private startup in gun stuff that's fucking crazy because you'll end up having to do things like I did, spend your life in the wilderness.

00:49:54.880 Every spare money you get, you know, all the spare money you get, just throwing it, just, like, trying to stay in the saddle.

00:50:01.000 But I've got a set of banking relationships.

00:50:04.360 I have an insurance entity, and, like, I have some other, like, strong legal relationships that it took me years to build, which I will now use as infrastructure for onboarding other people.

00:50:15.260 I don't know how long it will last.

00:50:16.380 I don't know how strong it can be.

00:50:17.420 But, like, I've finally built some of that infrastructure for myself, and I want to start sharing it with people.

00:50:22.020 So I'm really glad you asked the question because, like, I am trying to, like, at least do my part to allow people to create these, like, worlds that they've imagined for themselves if they're serious about it.

00:50:32.940 Of course, that's where my mind is now.

00:50:34.640 I don't know how many people in the end were really that serious about it.

00:50:37.420 It takes self-sacrifice and putting every day being obsessed with it.

00:50:41.900 I talk about this all the time.

00:50:43.800 Well, I wanted to switch gears a little bit and talk about your baby dark wallet for anonymous Bitcoin storage.

00:50:48.800 So how anonymous is it?

00:50:51.300 Can the government spy?

00:50:52.900 What a story.

00:50:54.840 Wow, that thing is so much more complicated.

00:50:57.320 Yes, of course the government can spy.

00:50:58.860 I mean, the whole idea is can you, oh, man, can you basically create enough joins and can you do it with the right addressing to elude triangulation of identity?

00:51:13.800 And it's a numbers game.

00:51:16.600 It's a matter of, like, who's participating.

00:51:18.760 It's a matter of pushing your activity to the very margins of the network, but also pushing it broadly.

00:51:25.960 And, yeah, I mean, it's a huge political problem.

00:51:27.780 Can the government spy on what we're doing?

00:51:29.200 Well, I mean, technically they can't in the ways that you mean if the dark wallet is used to properly, like, shield transactions.

00:51:39.540 But I want to tell you just, like, at the level of organization and development, I mean, the dark wallet has been in a bit of a crisis for the last, like, six months.

00:51:46.200 Its lead developer has just gone and we can't find him.

00:51:50.080 So we're, like, trying to recompose.

00:51:52.460 We're trying to create another dark wallet congress in Amsterdam.

00:51:55.720 I hope to do it in January.

00:51:56.880 And I'm bringing a lot of the old developers back.

00:52:00.560 Of course, Amir is doing his own project right now.

00:52:02.700 He can't come back.

00:52:03.480 But I'm trying to bring two American developers to it.

00:52:06.760 And basically I think I have the money from some patrons and, of course, some of my own money.

00:52:10.920 I'm trying to get it built so we can actually talk about it this way.

00:52:14.740 I mean, because it's still in alpha.

00:52:15.820 It's still in, like, alpha eight right now.

00:52:17.260 And it can do some of the things you're talking about and we can have the conversation.

00:52:20.300 But I feel so guilty when I have the conversation because I know that it's not, I know that it isn't where it needs to be to actually be the tool that we want to talk about it as.

00:52:28.860 Well, tell us about Defense Distributed, your website, and how people can go about getting blueprints.

00:52:34.380 Well, they can't.

00:52:39.180 I mean, man, I have, like, a conference call with my lawyers, I mean, like, every week.

00:52:44.900 And the case lawyers, I mean, when I'm suing the State Department.

00:52:47.800 I have so many other lawyers now.

00:52:49.900 But I go, look, Defense Distributed is a software company.

00:52:53.460 We're a nonprofit software company.

00:52:54.840 But that sounds more and more like parody because, like, I haven't really published software in such a long time.

00:53:02.300 And, of course, what really makes us money now is manufacturing and hardware.

00:53:06.560 And, you know, I am trying to create a legal zone to where I can publish to the Clearnet blueprints for these gun files.

00:53:15.500 But let's be honest, if you want blueprints for gun files right now, you can simply go to, like, grabcad.com or any of these other CAD repositories for 3D printing.

00:53:25.600 And there's plenty of CAD there, some for printing, most not for printing.

00:53:31.040 But if you want to get into getting weapons blueprints, you don't go to my website.

00:53:34.160 You don't look at my work anymore because my work is completely about, what am I trying to say?

00:53:41.420 My work is, at this point, a completely abstract, agonistic practice involving just ungodly amounts of money just being thrown at the legal system for no other reason than just to highlight the conflict for when it becomes opportunistic.

00:53:56.680 I'm no longer the software company that, you know, I want to be.

00:54:00.520 So the Internet is still full of these blueprints.

00:54:02.900 There's still DIY gun communities like Weaponeer.net and CNCguns.com.

00:54:09.400 And, of course, I do sell a mill that will help you make your own AR-15 for yourself.

00:54:13.020 That's something real.

00:54:13.800 We can talk about that.

00:54:14.680 But, no, if you want gun blueprints, you need to go to the CAD repositories like GrabCAD or the Torrent sites and start kind of doing this research for yourself because there's really no purpose-built site at the moment that does what I have been trying to do.

00:54:28.120 Well, last question for you.

00:54:29.420 You brought up Trump, so I wanted to know, what do you think of the guy?

00:54:32.760 Hold on.

00:54:33.200 Let me put my Trump hat on.

00:54:35.880 Okay, Trump hat.

00:54:37.140 Trump hat now on.

00:54:39.400 Look, Trump simply shows the way.

00:54:44.360 I mean, Trump simply shows how – I mean, he is a media creation, right?

00:54:48.940 Like, he is of this thing.

00:54:50.720 He is part of this spectacular abomination of late capital.

00:54:55.080 Like, don't get me wrong.

00:54:56.440 But at the same time, he shows a politically successful strategy.

00:55:01.880 And I think these other candidates are picking up on it if the MSNB – if the CNBC debate is any indication.

00:55:10.600 You don't have to care what these people think about you.

00:55:13.080 No, you don't.

00:55:13.880 This enforced order, like hegemonic modernity, right, if you want to call it that, is only enforced if you allow them to make you.

00:55:24.860 And if you don't allow them to make you, they can't unmake you.

00:55:27.520 And it's really that simple.

00:55:29.460 So, I love that he's, like, the happy warrior about it.

00:55:32.620 I mean, he understands it.

00:55:33.740 And maybe he didn't completely understand it when he began.

00:55:36.400 But I think he's beginning to understand who he is to a lot of people now.

00:55:39.180 Like, the avatar of this anti-politics.

00:55:41.980 And it's beautiful to watch it happen.

00:55:44.240 And when people compare him to Bernie Sanders, they miss it.

00:55:48.060 This isn't just a story of populism.

00:55:50.740 This is a story of, like, of rightish anti-politics.

00:55:55.680 And it's just beautiful to watch it happen.

00:55:59.220 Like, I feel privileged to watch it unfold.

00:56:01.780 I don't have any faith that, you know, he would be a much better executive, right, in any kind of meaningful way.

00:56:09.100 I mean, you only, in the end, preserve, like, the inertia of this terrible, terrible system.

00:56:14.780 And it's extreme, like, deep state and then real state bureaucratic apparatuses.

00:56:20.600 But, I mean, still, he's illuminating a kind of politics which had just been deemed to be impossible.

00:56:27.680 I agree with you.

00:56:28.660 Well, Cody, one last thing.

00:56:29.720 Off air, we talked quite a while.

00:56:31.660 And I shared how I was very much a free market anarchist.

00:56:35.020 And I never thought about race.

00:56:36.540 I traveled and lived outside the country for many years.

00:56:39.940 And it wasn't until I came back to the U.S. that I noticed the outright blatant attack on white people in the media.

00:56:46.320 I'm someone who liked to analyze the news and film and TV.

00:56:50.260 And it's the same common thread. 1.00

00:56:51.760 Whites are evil. 1.00

00:56:53.080 You can attack whites. 1.00

00:56:54.320 It's just nonstop.

00:56:55.660 Which actually made me wake up to race and all that I talk about now.

00:56:59.180 But as an anarchist yourself, where are you on some of these issues?

00:57:02.440 Like, I guess I'll start with the beginning of what you mentioned.

00:57:06.620 At least when you first told me this, you said you had traveled and really, like, your travel experiences and being exposed to different kinds of media, which were, like, hyperventilating about the evils of white people.

00:57:16.540 And, you know, the poisonous spread of colonialist modes of thought basically made you wake up and realize, okay, well, anarchism may not be enough to address what is clearly, like, a racial antipathy here meant to kind of devastate what you recognize as your people.

00:57:32.220 So I, at least in my experience, what I've recognized is that people in the South are more realistic about their racial relationships just because I think maybe more black and white people, that's the American historical paradigm.

00:57:46.480 But, of course, Hispanics enter that equation perhaps more forcefully in the Deep South. 0.90

00:57:51.080 But black and white people are just, they live and work around each other, I think, more than in the lily white East Coast or, you know, the kind of privileged enclaves in these metropolitan zones.

00:58:05.700 Even though those zones might say that, like, well, they're around more diverse people, they really kind of insulate themselves against, you know, proper exposure to working class thought and people.

00:58:19.380 And so I think that the South is a bulwark against this hyperventilating.

00:58:23.900 I mean, look, you've noticed, like, in the age of, like, Tarantino's, you know, revenge porn movies and the actual eclipse of white supremacy, formal white supremacy, there is the resurgence of the term white supremacy.

00:58:37.080 It's like the more, the more white people, if you want to say that, have, like, strained to show themselves to not be racist or to be allies of anti-racist movements, the more the bumper sticker white supremacy is just forced and forced and forced.

00:58:52.920 And this is, you know, this is, I was going to use the word feminine, but I only meant it in, like, an aesthetic sense, so I'll avoid that.

00:59:00.780 But what am I trying to say here?

00:59:05.000 This is the kind of ironic logic, this is the ironic logic of, like, hive mind, rampant leftism.

00:59:12.700 I mean, it's not going to resolve itself in, like, utopian harmony.

00:59:17.380 All it is is based on is a phantasmatic point of reference.

00:59:22.780 I mean, there has to always be the evil white fascistic tendency by which to define your leftist or SJW activism.

00:59:32.900 That's right.

00:59:33.380 And you have to more and more resurrect it and recreate it and, you know, kind of build it up and to be a bigger and bigger golem, especially as it disappears.

00:59:42.640 And I've tried to explain this to people that work for me, too.

00:59:44.640 That's why, like, I refuse to participate in it because it's this whipped frenzy of a politics of the dominant order, basically.

00:59:53.860 I mean, and all I want to say is, like, people who actually do, people who actually have grown up around other races, live and work around other races, like, there's just a different understanding about, that's all I'm, you know, a realism, I guess, is what I would counsel.

01:00:12.400 I mean, I don't let myself get drawn into these fantasies of resistance to oppression because I'm actually dealing with fighting oppressive legacy systems from the Cold War every day in my real life.

01:00:27.680 I don't have to get involved in what's fashionable nonsense.

01:00:32.580 And I ground a lot of my experience just based on having come up in a lower middle class southern environment.

01:00:42.400 Oh, I get it.

01:00:43.140 It's very hard to express, but I know we talked about this off the record for a while.

01:00:47.580 It's about being connected to the southern land your ancestors walked on.

01:00:50.820 It's a real thing.

01:00:51.960 There's a realism that comes from being connected to that.

01:00:54.660 And the history is recorded into the soil.

01:00:56.620 And for many southerners, their family is literally now a part of that soil.

01:01:01.540 So what did you make of this whole war on the Confederate flag hoopla?

01:01:05.200 Oh, of course.

01:01:05.980 Right.

01:01:06.240 I mean, we do have to recognize that, like, the, oh, man, let's call it, like, we do have to recognize that the Lost Cause narrative, I mean, did win in the South.

01:01:17.880 And, like, I'm speaking from Austin, Texas, right?

01:01:20.180 If you go to the Capitol, there's a monument to the Confederate States of America there and monuments to Robert E. Lee and, I think, the Fifth Cavalry and other.

01:01:29.140 I mean, down here, the Lost Cause narrative won, but there's this recriminative view of history that all narratives that are not consistent with, you know, the modernity, the narrative of progress, both ethical, material, popular progress, all narratives that don't align with that narrative must be whitewashed.

01:01:51.380 Like, it's not just enough to say that it's untrue, the Lost Cause narrative of the South, right?

01:01:57.300 It's important to eradicate its symbolic heritage and its thought because it's a threat to the progress of history.

01:02:06.160 And so when I see, like, the elimination of a symbol, right, the elimination of, and I'm not just sympathizing with Southern white racists, right?

01:02:13.820 I'm basically, like, recognizing a mode, a dangerous mode of post-politics, the need to eradicate a historical narrative.

01:02:25.060 Like, not just the need to combat it, the need to make sure that, like, its symbols are gone, the way to articulate it is gone.

01:02:30.980 That's just it.

01:02:31.860 Yeah, I felt like what happened in the South after the Civil War was kind of the equivalent of the denazification in Germany when they just decimated the people there, you know?

01:02:41.400 Well, I mean, yeah, let's be honest.

01:02:42.740 Like, radical reconstruction was radical and devastating.

01:02:45.200 And I like, man, there's this, I remember this old article on Radish Mag about the true devastation in human terms of post-slavery in the South.

01:02:56.420 But, I mean, I don't want to oversimplify it.

01:02:58.300 It was a human and economic disaster from all sides, from all parties, and it was a fight that was coming for generations.

01:03:06.260 We knew it was coming.

01:03:06.920 I mean, I dislike that the American nation, the American superstate was born from this conflict.

01:03:14.380 But I don't want to oversimplify the real complexity of the American South and the Civil War.

01:03:20.300 I mean, there was, there's almost nothing to like from either side when, if you take economic and materialist critique.

01:03:29.060 It's true, yeah.

01:03:29.200 But, but at the same time, like, those aren't the only valid critiques.

01:03:32.720 So, yes, there's a lot, there's a lot still to, there's a lot of power in the lost cause narrative.

01:03:36.260 So, again, don't let me get lost in any of that.

01:03:39.000 But what I, what I want to do highlight is that, like the Confederate flag, I also see that these same kind of post-political neoliberal prohibitionists,

01:03:49.880 they fight the same way in the gun debate.

01:03:52.660 And this is dear to my heart because, you know, I get up every morning trying to fight back against this.

01:03:57.380 It's not enough to say that, well, your Second Amendment is wrong.

01:04:00.400 As it's articulated, it's wrong.

01:04:02.300 Oh, it doesn't mean you actually have the right to have a firearm.

01:04:05.680 I mean, that's, that's some zone of, that's some acceptable terms for, for the public debate.

01:04:10.780 But for these people, it's important to show you and like to take away your ability to believe that it was ever true.

01:04:17.580 I mean, let me make a finer distinction.

01:04:19.440 So, it's not just enough to say, how about this?

01:04:22.500 Let me, let me restate this.

01:04:23.360 The, the Confederate flag debate to me is, is a lot like the debate and the fight I've had in American gun politics.

01:04:29.120 And the neoliberals fight the fight the same way.

01:04:32.020 It's not just enough for them to win politically and say, all right, look, our narrative wins.

01:04:35.720 More people don't want guns than want guns.

01:04:38.180 So, we're going to take your guns away or we're going to like severely limit your ability to have certain kinds of guns,

01:04:42.940 semi-automatics and, you know, high-capacity magazines.

01:04:45.520 It's more important for them to whitewash with their, this recriminative syndrome, to whitewash your history and your culture. 0.93

01:04:51.920 I come from a culture in the, in the American South, which deeply understands this radical Republican militia ideal.

01:05:00.260 This idea that we maintain battle rifles to do battle, to overcome an oppressive government.

01:05:05.580 It is not difficult for anyone down here to articulate.

01:05:08.320 It is important for our enemy, though, our, our enclave globalist enemy, right, in the East Coast and the West Coast,

01:05:13.760 these privileged liberals, not just to convince us that we're wrong, but to prevent that historical idea from even being articulated.

01:05:19.840 That this is the level of, of enmity and aggression that they have.

01:05:24.060 They're not, it's not enough for them to just take the guns away and prove that they have the political power to do so.

01:05:27.940 They have to destroy our narrative and eliminate our culture. 0.99

01:05:32.980 Yeah, and they also use Hollywood to do it because anytime you watch any of these shit shows, 0.99

01:05:37.260 you know, they're always putting down the Southerner, always putting down the Southern male, 1.00

01:05:41.320 making him this total inbred idiot, I'm sure you've noticed. 0.99

01:05:44.960 Of course, I mean, we come from, our, our moral matrix is, is, is simply different. 1.00

01:05:50.300 And just forgive me for slipping in and out of other people's vocabularies.

01:05:53.600 But I mean, you know, we, we have an honor culture.

01:05:55.960 We have an honor-based culture.

01:05:57.100 We have the vestiges of one.

01:05:58.520 And that's totally alien to the cosmopolitan debt serfs on the East and West Coast. 0.99

01:06:04.520 They don't understand it.

01:06:05.500 It's like, it's like trying to explain, you know, another language.

01:06:08.580 I mean, and they, they see it as a threat.

01:06:11.760 Literally, they see it as barbaric and something to be kind of ruined.

01:06:15.620 And, and it's also, the South to me is, I mean, a lot of guys, let's face it.

01:06:20.300 I can't stand it.

01:06:20.920 They're being feminized. 0.95

01:06:21.960 They're like wussy little girls. 1.00

01:06:23.540 I think feminism is just really beat down these guys. 1.00

01:06:26.160 I mean, I, I've seen it in Europe and Sweden.

01:06:27.800 They're like completely de-balled and no, no woman like myself wants a guy like that.

01:06:32.480 You know, we want like real men and the South actually still has some real men,

01:06:36.000 some testosterone guys that know how to do stuff.

01:06:38.780 And that's a problem for the establishment that, that kind of rebellious guy energy.

01:06:44.360 That's a, I mean, look, think about Freud, right?

01:06:46.440 I mean, that's, that's the uneasiness in culture.

01:06:48.440 That's, that's the permanent conflict of civilization that there will always be these aggressive men.

01:06:52.900 And instead we have, I think the ascendant triumphalist, you know, narratives of like

01:06:56.960 Martha Nussbaum, for example, like the whole, the whole program is like you've said to,

01:07:01.540 to purposely like de-conflict ideas and philosophy and feminize them.

01:07:07.600 As you said, I'll use the word feminization is fine to remove the kind of like, why,

01:07:13.120 why am I so, why do I like the political philosophy of Carl Schmitt or, or, or other thinkers?

01:07:18.340 I mean, to admit that aggression is central, a central part of politics is to admit something

01:07:24.720 that which is like heresy in the, in the modern age and to like, and to value what we can see

01:07:32.000 as traditional male tendencies.

01:07:33.740 I mean, aggression and the, the need for overcoming the valorization of conflict and even like

01:07:40.100 the metaphysics of war, right?

01:07:41.720 To use, to evil.

01:07:43.120 I mean, to, there is a direct mission to eliminate these potentialities and these modes of thought,

01:07:49.680 or at least as legitimate entrees to political discourse.

01:07:53.300 So look at me talking to my NPR voice about how, uh, testosterone is valuable.

01:07:58.240 I mean, I want to, yeah, like I, I am obviously on your side, but I also try to understand why

01:08:04.300 and how the enemy is, uh, is doing what they're doing.

01:08:08.140 Well, thanks for that extra commentary, Cody.

01:08:10.960 Uh, look, uh, we can do this all day long.

01:08:13.600 I'm so happy to have, uh, to have been invited on your show.

01:08:16.100 I'm happy to, to come back.

01:08:17.760 Cody, thank you.

01:08:18.720 I really appreciate your time today.

01:08:20.140 I've really enjoyed this conversation and you're extremely articulate.

01:08:22.940 And it's nice knowing that you have your whole life ahead of you because you're so young.

01:08:26.820 So thank you so much for your time today.

01:08:28.780 Oh, don't jinx me, Lana.

01:08:29.900 But look, any, anytime you want to, you want to talk, I'm so glad to have met you.

01:08:33.280 Thank you.

01:08:34.300 I have to say, I'm really impressed with Cody and I think he's going to do some extraordinary

01:08:38.100 things in his lifetime.

01:08:39.560 He is exceptionally articulate and driven.

01:08:42.120 And I think it's great that the alt-right is on his radar.

01:08:45.240 He has a different spin on things, but in the end, we align on the important issues.

01:08:48.780 We need more Cody's and I can see them coming out of the millennial generation.

01:08:53.160 I think there's a lot of brilliance in that generation of young men who are going to become

01:08:57.000 fed up with accusations and restrictions made against them, both politically and socially.

01:09:02.440 Those limitations put upon them will make young men turn into fashigoes.

01:09:06.660 And I think we'll see interesting new horizons arising out of the necessity to fight the decay

01:09:12.020 and degeneracy of modern society.

01:09:14.080 Let's face the reality here.

01:09:16.640 What good has modernity brought?

01:09:18.460 We're heading towards outright degeneracy culturally, dysgenics genetically, people are getting uglier 0.79

01:09:24.280 and dumber, bankruptcy economically, dead spiritually, academically, we're so far from reality of

01:09:30.280 natural law, and our government has become our biggest enemy, actively working against our 0.97

01:09:35.300 interests.

01:09:36.480 In our lifetime, this will catch up to us all.

01:09:39.640 We're not going to be able to get away with denial much longer.

01:09:42.120 We're going on as though we can live somewhere and be untouched.

01:09:45.380 It's on our doorstep.

01:09:47.000 We live in a time where we must be flexible, ready for anything.

01:09:51.280 Many of us can't base our security on our job working for someone else, nor can young

01:09:55.820 people have faith that college is going to bring them security in the future.

01:10:00.100 We can see the social forecast and it's not looking bright for our children.

01:10:04.340 So here we are, forced to think outside the box, not only for our own survival, but for

01:10:09.320 the future of mankind, because where things are currently heading, ultimate destruction

01:10:14.200 is the destination.

01:10:15.860 Destruction of culture, of people, of nature, of the land, of differences. 0.78

01:10:21.420 It's a nightmare scenario to see where modernity without nature is taking us.

01:10:26.220 As more of our people wake up to this reality, they'll feel the squeeze, the pressure, the

01:10:30.760 need to evolve into something greater to survive.

01:10:33.580 And out of that, I think we'll see extraordinary, unpredictable victories.

01:10:38.560 Well, thanks for being here with me.

01:10:39.880 The website is Radio314.com or RedIceCreations.com, where you can find all our material and where

01:10:46.000 you can sign up for a Red Ice membership to access our radio archives.

01:10:49.860 It helps to support what we do.

01:10:51.960 Find me on Facebook and Twitter to get in touch.

01:10:54.100 I have many interesting guests coming up.

01:10:56.820 And of course, I have to let you know that my organic and natural fiber clothing line for

01:11:01.240 men and women, Lana's Llama, is now available at lanasllama.com.

01:11:06.480 I'm just getting started, so look out for a lot more coming.

01:11:09.340 I also offer Bitcoin payments, which I think is pretty cool.

01:11:12.540 All the best to you.

01:11:13.400 Talk soon.

01:11:13.820 We'll be right back.

01:11:43.820 We'll be right back.

01:12:13.820 We'll be right back.

01:12:43.820 We'll be right back.

Radio 3Fourteen - November 09, 2015

3D Printed Guns_ PC Hacktivism _ Cultural Terrorism

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Transcript